On September 17, it came to pass in New Jersey that party faithful applauding a chipper talk about the war by Laura Bush shouted down a mother in their midst and made sure she was arrested. She had come from a nearby town to ask a simple question: Why was her only son, Seth Dvorin, 24, sent to Iraq like… return to article
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Reader Comments (38)Page 1 of 1 pagesIf shouting down and arresting the mother of a small town American kid who made the ultimate sacrifice for his country is how the Republicans react to her grief then Bush has already lost the election. If rank and file troops have to beg their commanding officers for resources just to fight the war much less win it then the war is already lost. Election day can’t get here soon enough.
Posted by theloneous on Oct 4, 2004 at 10:33 AM That we should spend even *more* on defense?
Does anyone care or know how many Iraqis’ would have died from the sanctions if they had not been lifted?
Would a mother’s grief be any less if the cause was indisputedly (which it *never* is) just?
While this article “tugs on heartstrings”, does it really convey anything of interest?
At least her son died for a good reason - imagine what might have happened if some Iraqi children had been the victims of the crazies who plant these bombs!
Posted by IsThePoint on Oct 4, 2004 at 12:56 PM Niederer has my support. Bush does not, nor do the Republicans who are meanspirited. Imagine saying something like that to a person who lost their son to the war. Doesn’t surprise me these people have no compassion, empathy or brains.
Posted by lilizthelizard on Oct 4, 2004 at 1:59 PM isthepoint sums up the whole republican problem....i can smell your soul rotting from here....i can’t believe you could think this woman’s son has died for a just cause....you are truely heartless, cruel and brainless…
Posted by danoaudio on Oct 4, 2004 at 6:21 PM IsThePoint wrote: Does anyone care or know how many Iraqis’ would have died from the sanctions if they had not been lifted?
You mean the same sanctions imposed upon these children by King George Bush the 1st, right?
Here’s an idea: lift the sanctions without killing these same people you’re, in a long stretch of the imagination, supposed to be helping.
You’re not exactly Mr. Current Affairs, then:
BAGHDAD (Reuters) - Insurgents detonated three car bombs near a U.S. military convoy in Baghdad Thursday, killing 41 people, 34 of them children, and wounding scores...Nice job, dumbass Bush.
You also wrote: While this article “tugs on heartstrings”, does it really convey anything of interest?
At least her son died for a good reason - imagine what might have happened if some Iraqi children had been the victims of the crazies who plant these bombs!
For a good reason? FOR A GOOD REASON??!!!! This illegal invasion was NOT a good reason.
This guy was unable to find work because Bush has so miserably screwed up the economy that this happens:
NEW YORK (Reuters) - PepsiCo Inc. (PEP.N: Quote, Profile, Research) , the world’s No. 2 soft drink company, on Thursday said quarterly profit rose due to tax benefits and strong performances from its key Frito-Lay snack and North American beverage businesses and raised its full-year profit forecast.The company also said it was closing four plants at Frito-Lay, resulting in 780 job cuts at those locations. About 250 of those jobs will be moved to other Frito-Lay operations.
Nice job with giving all those tax break to corporations so they can “jump-start” the economy. They’re using them so well.
I don’t know about you, but everyone I know is barely making ends meet. Medicine, health care, food is all on the rise. Yet you feel “it was for a good cause.” You think Iraq was a threat to America? Hardly.Do you subscribe to this screwed up notion that Republican are righteous and Democrats are bad? Because that is what Bush wants you to believe--that he’s doing God’s work.
According to my bible, lying, stealing, cheating, and greed, not to mention murder, are all sins--the very ones committed by that mentally defunct piece of trash that calls himself our president.
Posted by Neil on Oct 4, 2004 at 7:34 PM I agree with Ms.Niederer did. For far too long , relatives of serving servicemen in Iraq have been stereotyped as unthinking supporters of the Administration. Maybe Rose Gentle, mother of a British soldier killed recently in Iraq, can get together with her US counterparts.
Posted by Terry Washington on Oct 4, 2004 at 11:42 PM My heart goes out to this woman. Her opinion should mean more to the American people then mine. I haven’t made any sacrifices in this war, yet she speaks out about losing her son and is arrested.
What happened to America?
Seems that when Bush was searching for a reason to somehow justify this war, he would talk about how any anti-Saddam statement in Iraq would result in death. Well Bush only has them arrested, so I guess that somehow makes him better.
Posted by Michael G. on Oct 5, 2004 at 4:18 AM Sue Niederer, God loves you and God is so sorry for your lose as are are millions of good loving Americans.
You are 100% vetted to say and do whatever you decide is the right thing for you and the memory of your so loved son.?Is the point? That would be a good question for you. What? is the point?
What indeed are you? That’s right I said what not who.
Hey pointy is the head, do you see that man behind the curtain? Maybe he can find a heart for you?I am so sick of people who are not capable of thinking in a rational manner or thinking for them self. We all know many of them as they masquerade as Republicans. They are people who cannot take the truth about anything and come to a correct, righteous, compassionate, factual conclusion on their own. All they can do is listen to what is preached to them and repeat it in some form or another. 43%+ of these sheep still believe that Iraq had something to do with 9-11. Now someone please tell me that these people don’t have a serious mental disorder?
It is time for good Americans to start calling them out for what they are. They are Satan’s disciples. Heartless, greedy, fascist, hate-filled, self-loving, bigots, and racist.
Get back in your hellhole, we are sick of your shit. Either conform to our democratic society or leave it. We are God’s true children. The apocalypse is upon you, tools of Satan, and you are fulfilling the prophecy.
Posted by Dogfo Nam on Oct 5, 2004 at 8:09 AM GW Bush is a faggot and should be hung in the Hague like a common criminal.
You USA phucks are brainwashed and useless when it comes to thinking for yourselves. Biggots and a nation full of spite and hatred your stupid race of a people couldn’t punch your way out of a wet paper bag!!
Get a grip...take your country back.
Someone will!!
Posted by fuckbush on Oct 5, 2004 at 9:17 AM Fuckbush, what country are you from? You talk like you come from a country free of bigotry (note the correct spelling, dumbass), hatred, and stupidity so why don’t you tell us what it is? It’s easy to attack someone’s country when you don’t subject your own to similar criticism. So quit being a pussy and tell us what Utopia you call home.
Posted by Harry on Oct 5, 2004 at 10:18 AM To IsThePoint:
Either you are completely out of touch like the rest of the republican party or your just plain stupid. We are in Iraq, of course we have to spend more money to protect our people and save lives, Iraqi and American. I believe its already been shown how many less would have died from the sanctions than this damn war, if you care to research the truth, you can find it! And yes, as a mother, I think her grief could have been less had we been doing what our president said we were, but that was all a lie. So of course her grief is worse. You are a callous fool who obviously has not a shred of compassion, tugs at the heartstrings but doesn’t convey interest? Again either you are completely out of touch or a complete idiot. Her poor son died for a bunch of lies, and you call that a “good reason.” How dare you ! Sue Neiderer I am praying for you and God Bless you and your family.
Posted by teresa on Oct 5, 2004 at 10:58 AM I marvel at the capacity of Americans for self-delusion! Bush,Cheney,Rumsfeld,Rice and Powell have been exposed for the liars they are, but we are so conditioned to believe that what “we”.as a country, do is right and because “we” are, for now, the most powerful nation on earth, we act under some kind of divine entitlement.
Anybody remember Rome?
Posted by Jackie Giles on Oct 5, 2004 at 2:49 PM You know Jackie, Rome is a comparison that comes to my mind as well. The arrogance, the lust for domination, the refusal to see what is happening beyond the borders…
Mrs. Neiderer, I am truly sorry for your loss. I’m glad that you have found a way to channel your anger and pain into something that could help many other military families. As for me, I’d be more than happy to let Mr. Bush have a “well-deserved” retirement in one more month.
Posted by Karen on Oct 5, 2004 at 3:09 PM Neil,
I agree with your point 1000%, although when dealing with Bush supporters who get ALL of their news from Bush,I mean,Fox News and the pulpit,it is very difficult to get them to see any nonpartisan facts as anything other than liberal lies. I have an evangelical mother in law who gave this answer when I asked her how she can support Bush and his criminal policies on the environment, corporate welfare, the elderly, guns,Iraq- “I’m not worried as much about this life as I am about the next.” They truly see him as the chosen one, leading his people against the infidels. And we are any better than muslim fundamentalists? We just have better weapons and we lie about our intentions. Bill Maher was right- they are the brave ones!
Posted by diana on Oct 5, 2004 at 3:51 PM How long before we the public will wake up to the fact that we are losing our young men and women for a mission that will never be accomplished and should have never been attempted in the first place.
----------------------------------------------Mother of soldier killed in Iraq collapses, dies
‘Her grief was so intense,’ hospital worker says
Tuesday, October 5, 2004 Posted: 12:28 PM EDT (1628 GMT)
TUCSON, Arizona (AP)—A 45-year-old woman collapsed and died days after learning her son had been killed in Iraq, and just hours after seeing his body.Results of an autopsy were not immediately released, but friends of Karen Unruh-Wahrer said she couldn’t stop crying over losing her 25-year-old son, Army Spc. Robert Oliver Unruh, who was killed by enemy fire near Baghdad on September 25.
“Her grief was so intense—it seemed it could have harmed her, could have caused a heart attack. Her husband described it as a broken heart,” said Cheryl Hamilton, manager of respiratory care services at University Medical Center, where Unruh-Wahrer worked as a respiratory therapist.
Unruh, a combat engineer, had been in Iraq less than a month when he was shot during an attack on his unit.
Several days after learning of his death, his mother had gone to the hospital complaining of chest pains, Hamilton said. She was feeling better the next day but saw her son’s body Saturday morning and collapsed that night in her kitchen.
Her husband, Dennis Wahrer—also a respiratory therapist—and other family members performed CPR but Unruh-Wahrer was pronounced dead that night.
Autopsy results won’t be released until relatives are notified, said Dr. Bruce Parks, Pima County chief medical examiner. There was no immediate response to a call to his office before business hours Tuesday.
Robert Unruh will be buried Friday at the Southern Arizona Veterans’ Memorial Cemetery. His mother’s body will accompany her son’s in the procession to the cemetery.
Posted by Vijay on Oct 5, 2004 at 4:48 PM Laura Bush - What can I say - she is obviously a stepford wive with no personality;anyone with a heart would have at least listened to this lady, not allowed them to be bullied and arrested. Imagine if some drink driver killed one of her precious daughters? What would happen then? The thing which gets me most about all this is the way lives are talked up into ‘figure’, ‘numbers’, ‘statistics’, ‘brave sacrifices’ etc. etc. tell it to the parents, spouses, children, friends etc who are left behind. the media may as well be talking about icr cream cones when the latest atrocity is reported - and this crap of comparing which decision reaped the most lives - to invade or not - THESE ARE HUMAN BEINGS FOR F**K SAKE - They are not NASDAQ figures, petrol prices, electoral college votes or even doughnuts - each ‘figure’thrown out is or at least was a living breathing thinking feeling individual with hopes, dreams and aspirations - american and iraqi, and they sure as hell wanted life. when I listen to Bush & Cheney and all the other war dodging cowards talk about ‘noble’ sacrifices I wonder what they would do if they had to try to talk a 23yo young man through his death as you try to keep his ropey intestines in his lap as he doesnt want to make a mess as he’s EMBARRESSED by the state of himself - he’s peed himself and also lost control of his (whats left of them)bowels. He’s crying like a baby for his mom and this is a ‘noble’ sacrifice? Luckily I have never been in this situation, but my sister was and it haunts her still - theres no nobility in the blood and mud of a battlefield is what she says - and if its her word against those with ‘other priorities’ who couldnt even attend the national guard regularly - well???? Sue Niederer, you have my sympathys always - may he be amongst the last of the pointless dead......
Posted by Benny Goldein on Oct 6, 2004 at 4:59 AM If I were the parent of a young person who enlisted in the military with the idea of defending this country as legitimately needed, but who was ordered into the egregiously dishonest misadventure that its Iraq policy is, I would be very bitter.
Posted by Wes Gordon on Oct 6, 2004 at 6:24 AM Wow! Lots of compassion here! If you agree with the “common wisdom” of the left anyway. Otherwise, if you actually disagree, then the manners go away and the true selves come out. To disagree one must be intellectually challanged, callous, mean-spirited, etc. I am sure that if some of the posters here could, they would censor dialog that disagrees with them, Which has become, sadly, the way of the left. . .
One might think that understanding *both* sides would be a worthwhile endeavor. But that would require not only more thinking, but critical thinking as well. Clearly not on the agenda today!
Posted by IsThePoint on Oct 6, 2004 at 8:22 AM It’s not the point to spend more on defense...the point is that we should not be in Iraq...period....The Right has so conveniently forgotten Afghanistan in its so-called war on terrorism...we are in Iraq for one reason...so Mr. Bush can steal oil. IsThePoint should be thankful he/she is allowed to comment here..at the same time if he/she really believed in what they said they would not hide behind a silly name...they would use their real name.. Try commenting on a right-wing” website...you either have to register...and most times registration is closed...or there is no place for comment at all.
IsThePointsaid: Otherwise, if you actually disagree, then the manners go away and the true selves come out. To disagree one must be intellectually challanged, callous, mean-spirited, etc. I am sure that if some of the posters here could, they would censor dialog that disagrees with them, Which has become, sadly, the way of the left. . .
Posted by Terri Shirley-Summerhayes on Oct 6, 2004 at 9:47 AM Terri,
I totally agree, whoever IsThePoint is...you are actually a coward. Just because we disagree with your totally callous and ridiculous postings don’t mean we aren’t compassionate. We might however believe you to be a mean spirited, misguided, rightwing idiot. I feel sorry for you, there...does that make you feel better?Teresa Scarberry, SSS II
Shawnee, Oklahoma
Posted by teresa on Oct 6, 2004 at 10:52 AM War is ugly and the price paid for it is lot more by the ones who do the dirty work and their family. Of course it is essential for us to be prepared to go to war for the right cause. The question is, Did we have to go? Was the time to go correct? Did we plan it right? did we have exit stratagy? Read another sad article…
The Suicide of an Iraq War Veteran
Another Casualty of Bush’s War
By MARK CLINTON and TONY UDELLJeffrey Lucey is not a name that will not soon be forgotten by the more than 100 people who attended a memorial service for him at Holyoke Community College (HCC) in Western Massachusetts. Lucey, a Marine veteran of the Iraq war and a student at the college, committed suicide on June 22. He was 23.
As his father Kevin said at the memorial, Jeff’s death, while not officially listed as such, is another casualty showing the human costs of the war. Lucey joined the Marine Reserves at 18 because, as his parents told Amy Goodman of the left-wing radio program Democracy Now! he wanted to get the training and earn money for college.
He was called to active duty with the 6th Motor Transport Battalion in early 2003. By February, he was in Kuwait. One day after he celebrated his 22nd birthday, the invasion of Iraq began. Trained as a clerical specialist, he was reassigned to serve as a driver.
On April 18, 2003, Jeff wrote to Julianne Proulx, his girlfriend since 1997, that he had done “immoral things.” On his return to his parents’ home in July, however, he had seemed normal, and everyone was too happy to see him to suspect that something was terribly wrong. With those who knew him less intimately, Jeff maintained the façade of the good Marine until the very end.
Things really began to fall apart on Christmas Eve. While drunk, Lucey took two handmade Iraqi dog tags from around his neck, threw them at his younger sister, and told her that he felt like a murderer.
He never did tell his family the whole story of his experience in Iraq, only bits and pieces. It was horrific enough. He spoke of elderly people killed as they tried to run from Marines rolling into Nasariya.
He spoke of a small Iraqi boy, bloody and prone in the dusty street, shot in the head and the chest and still holding a small, bloodstained American flag in his hands. He spoke of his horror as an American tank lumbered down the street, how he had bolted from his own vehicle and, as gunfire rippled the sand around him, moved the tiny corpse to the sad sanctuary of a nearby alley.
He spoke of how he had been ordered to shoot two Iraqi prisoners. He remembered how he had looked into their eyes and hesitated, watching as they shook in terror, and thinking of their families. He remembered that an officer had shouted, “Pull the fucking trigger, Lucey!” He remembered shooting the soldiers and watching them die. He told his father that there were “other things” he did not want the family to know about.
For its part, the Marines dismissed Lucey’s allegation that he had been ordered to shoot Iraqi prisoners as “without merit"--but didn’t offer an explanation of how that conclusion was reached. Marine spokesperson Capt. Pat Kerr, however, has confirmed that Lucey’s battalion was engaged in transporting prisoners of war, according to one press report.
As Jeff spiraled toward self-destruction, he began to drink more and more. In early June, his desperate parents were able to arrange an involuntary commitment to a local veterans’ hospital, where Lucey complained that he was treated like “a prisoner.”
He was diagnosed as suffering from depression with secondary alcohol dependency--and was released after four days because, the hospital said, he was not a danger to himself or others. On the ride home, he told his parents that he had met with psychiatrists twice, both times briefly, and on the second occasion, the psychiatrist had seem preoccupied with other matters.
In many respects, Jeff’s fate followed a trajectory that is becoming all too familiar. As Nancy Lessin of Military Families Speak Out told Amy Goodman, “We have heard so much about what this military has learned in Vietnam [about Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder], and how they’re doing it differently now. And we don’t see that at all. We see the same mistakes happening--mistakes that are, in fact, not mistakes at all. It’s really a way of denying this issue so they can keep as many warm bodies deployed and re-deployed.”
After Jeff’s death, his parents learned from the medical records kept during his involuntary confinement that he had told nurses of three different plans to kill himself--a drug overdose, suffocation or hanging. On June 22, he chose the last of these three methods, hanging himself with a hose in the basement of his parents’ home.
His father found the body of his only son when he got home from work shortly before 7 p.m. In one of the notes Jeff left behind, he begged his parents not to blame themselves “because I lived a happy childhood and a great life thanks to you. Unfortunately, I am weak and cannot deal with the pain. It feels as if I lost the most important part of my life that will ever exist.”
While the memorial service was not intended as a political event, virtually none of the speakers were able to ignore the implications of the war in Iraq, which is leaving behind the equivalent of human cluster bomblets who will be imploding and exploding for years and decades to come.
Perhaps no one addressed the political context of Jeff Lucey’s death as eloquently as Sean Lamory, Jeff’s friend for the last 14 years, an Air Force veteran, an HCC student and one of the main organizers of the campus memorial service. Noting that the burdens of the war in Iraq are falling more than ever before on reservists and National Guard members, Lamory observed that such soldiers “are stereotypically young men and women who join the military for free college and benefits.
“I see it right here at HCC, a school where a lot of students struggle financially and come out of class to see a fancy Hummer, surrounded by Marines in full-dress uniforms making all sorts of promises.” Lamory also quoted a New Yorker article noting that the suicide rate “among soldiers in Iraq is one-third higher than the Army’s historical average.”
Perhaps, he speculated, the rate is so high because “there’s somewhere around 15,000 Iraqi civilians dead, and our troops are having trouble finding the justice in that.”
Posted by Vijay on Oct 6, 2004 at 12:40 PM It’s hard to use this phrase without sounding callous, but I keep thinking of Malcolm X’s celebrated comment apropos of the assasination of John F. Kennedy -namely “the chickens have come home to roost!”
Posted by Terry Washington on Oct 7, 2004 at 2:42 AM Let’s do some landscape work in November and remove the Bushes from the White House.
Posted by Cool kid on Oct 7, 2004 at 11:59 AM IsThePoint,
It seems you are the one who is unable to think or argue critically. You have come here to provoke a fight, no? The questions you posed are all indesputably based upon false premises. Then, when that is brought to your attention, in typical Republican/Machiavellian fashion, you lash out and engage in name calling, generalizing and then proceed impute to liberals those despicable traits for which Republicans are most guilty. Finally, in doing so, you have also proven yourself to be, again in typical Republican/Machiavellian fashion, an indefatigable hypocrite and liar, just like your President, his family his administration, and most of the rest of the GOP.
Posted by Lefty on Oct 7, 2004 at 2:21 PM Hey Lefty, seems teresa thinks you are a coward, since you don’t “identify” yourself. (Practically speaking, this is an anonymous posting site, and i am grateful i can post here - espcially when thoughtful replies come!)
I don’t lie. Therefore it is incorrect to say that i am a liar. I do think a great deal. so undoubtedly i am wrong some of the time. But never on matters of opinion (by definition).
I stand by my intial post. I have seen no real response to it yet. Perhaps the only response is namecalling or vague assertions? To refresh:
Many Iraqis would have died from sanctions - and from what i can tell that number is greater than the number dead from the war - and right now, the Iraqis are the main source of the killing (i do wonder why none of our military attacks can kill insurgents - they ALWAYS kill innocent women and children - if you believe what you read anyway!)!
Grief is grief. To lose a loved one from a just cause is painful.
Iraq’s liberation - if it eventually works out, will be a noble cause. Regardless of the reason it came to be. Can anyone really doubt this? (The question refers to a hypothetical question whose answer is still undetermined and will be for some time, years probably).
Please. If you only want to call names, save your fingers. Surely we can be civil, even if we disagree - that is, one can be on either side of this issue and be intelligent and honorable.
And remember - nothing typed here will make any difference at all in the world. So do yourself a favour and show that manners are alive and well. And so is self respect!
Posted by isThePoint on Oct 7, 2004 at 3:43 PM You’re supporting a murderous fascist leader when you support Bush.
Rumsfeld just stated there was no connection between Iraq and terrorism. And if you remember, the initial reason for this “war” wasn’t for the poor Iraqis or their children, it was because of
1st) Violations of UN Security Council Resolutions
2nd) WOMD
3rd) Because Saddam had used biological weapons on his own people
4th) For humanitarian reasons
The last two reasons because they couldn’t prove the first two cases and the world, including the Pope were against him and STILL ARE.The ends don’t justify the means. Why then don’t we go into North Korea? Because thousands upons thousands of our troops would be killed. But mostly because there isn’t enough oil to make it worth sending other people’s kids to die for.
Bush is completly without honor, he’s a coward, an AWOL drug addict, and a lying murderer. Those who support him have the blood of the innocent civilians killed from our under-equipped and poorly lead troops on their hands.
Depleted Uranium is an abomination and both Bush presidents have dumped 495 tons of it on Iraq. For that reason alone they should be convicted.
Posted by Neil on Oct 7, 2004 at 10:29 PM isThePoint demands civility in defending an administration that would rather arrest a grieving mother than admit they started a war with no real justification.
We went in to protect ourselves from a “stockpile” of WMDs. We knew right where they were, and we were in imminent danger becaus of their existence. (Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Powell). Oops...didn’t pan out.
Okay, let’s try again. We went in because Iraq was a nexus in the war or terror, and if we didn’t fight it there, we’d be fighting it on our streets again. (Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld). Oops...no connection to 9/11.
Okay, let’s try this. America is safer, our ally Israel is safer, because we eliminated Sadaam. Now, as we see, we have fanned the flames of radical Islam, created hate for the U.S. all across the moderate Muslim world, and shed every ounce of credibility we had spent 60 years building up as a relatively fair-minded mediator in the middle east.
In other words, isThePoint, like most lemming Republicans, is willing to accept a string of broken excuses for this unnecessary, voluntary, and utterly indefensible war.
If a Democratic President had this kind of record of failure in it’s most prominent foreign policy initiative, the Republicans would be running him out of town wearing tar and feathers. But, because he’s *their* guy, Bush can do no wrong.
As a “blue” voter in a “red” state, I see this every day. Republicans are not interested in what is best for the country...only what is best for their party. They have confused patriotism with party loyalty, and fidelity to country with election politics.
If you want a civil discourse, pal, try going back to your 5th grade civics textbook and take a look at what citizenship means. Then, take a good hard look at the greedy, sanctimonious, self-promoting SOB at the top of your ticket.
Posted by Frank on Oct 8, 2004 at 12:13 PM I am so dismayed at how my country has been hijacked by these Bush people, and astonished that there aeen’t more people rioting in the streets here in the USA. Just the torture pictures, and people with straight faces defending it, boggles my mind. (how did those mercenaries found guilty of torture in Afghanistan happen to have Rumsfeld’s fax number and private phone #? and why hasn’t Rumsfeld resigned in utter shame?) My country ‘s reputation is ruined in this immoral war. It really affected me about the kid who killed himself- what the hell is going on over in Iraq? I mean, if I had sat down when we first got there, and tried to creatively come up with a worse snario than the one playing out there now- I don’t think I could. And Bush and co. keep pushing the rosey fantasy that democracy has a chance over there? good lord help us- anyway- this Missouri girl will watch the debate tonight in St Louis and hope that Bush looks his small minded, un- christian, evil, petulant self again-! PS my husband is from Panama- another country invaded by a Bush, countless innocents killed- to rid ourselves of a creature of our own making...Noriega!(put in when Bush senior was head of the CIA- pictures of Bush and Noriega smiling and drinking whisky- kinda like the grinning black haired Rumsfeld shaking Saddam’s hand- doesn’t anyone remember that Saddam was our ally for many years? that we supported the guy? and now are bombing the place back to the stone age to get rid of Our man?
Posted by liz on Oct 8, 2004 at 2:49 PM isthepoint, of course you’ve not seen any ‘real’response to your initial post,thats because you refuse to acknowlege any and all FACTS that don’t support your pre-conceived ideas.you choose to remain blind to reality so you can continue in your blissful ignorance.please open your eyes and look at the world.think for yourself,and don’t just accept what your told by those in power,they tell you what they want you to believe.And if enough people like you blindly follow,then comes tyrrany and dictatorship.think about that if your capable.
Posted by mike on Oct 9, 2004 at 8:57 AM Mr, Mrs, Miss, Ms, isthepoint, not sure how to address you since I still dont even know your gender, just your political slant. Did it ever occur to you that I may have said what I did to you because I felt you left me no choice. All you do is continue to laude the current administration after the collsal mess they have made. You degrade a mother who grieves for her son when you yourself have no clue what that means. If by some miracle we manage to come out of Iraq with a “victory” I suppose the argument could be made that it was worth it. But for all the people who have lost their loved ones, well, they may never feel that is so. So who is right? You? Your arguments ring hollow. Your rhetoric is tired and becoming old. I have all the self respect I need, I have at least had the courage here to identify who I am. You on the other hand continue to hide. Why? What are you afraid of? Are you possibly ashamed of your comments? I am. You even know where I am, right in the heartland of America where it is not exactly popular to express these views. But I guess that’s something else you don’t understand. Again, whoever you are, I feel sorry for you. Since you are tired of me calling you names, (I dont know your real one)and asked that I save my fingers, I have saved one special finger, just for you.
Teresa Scarberry
Posted by teresa scarberry on Oct 9, 2004 at 11:34 AM for isthepoint
i’d like to dispute your notion of nobility. you may be right that in the longterm history may prove this endeavor to have been to the benefit of civilized people and the whole world. could be. but if the methods to achieve that goal are questionable at best, possibly by deception and certainly by death and destruction, where’s the nobility? the reasons we use to achieve an end matter. we know the world was a better place after world war II, but we vaporized two japanese cities to achieve that. truman’s decision was a hard and courageous one to make. was it noble? it’s a matter of opinion. here’s an analogy for you. if someone murders one of your loved ones and in return you kill him, in a sense you have rid the world of an evil person and made the world a better place. but your action, or justification, is not noble. as for dying for a just cause, who gets to decide what’s just? do you think the insurgents and suicide bombers believe their’s is not a just cause? anyone can claim justice is on their side. americans look at what these terrorists do and decide for themselves where the just cause lies. we are right to take the fight to them. and americans will look at how and where this fight is conducted and decide if it just. and a lot of them will draw different conclusions. as to your initial post i won’t answer every question but i’ll take a stab at one. i have a daughter and three sons. my grief at the loss of any of my children would not lessen or grow whether the cause is just or not. but anger, pride, and shame would. the reasons matter!
Posted by C.W. on Oct 9, 2004 at 2:24 PM At a minimum, the republicans should have shown a modicum of respect for the mother of a dead soldier. This proves conclusively that some, if not all, republicans do not respect the troops, their families, or anything else that infringes on their quest for total world power and domination.
Posted by Phil Patterson on Oct 12, 2004 at 1:14 PM I read the above with interest and then the responses. The article could be criticized from the editing standpoint (the simile “sitting duck” in the first paragraph is off, since the US soldiers have been fairly active there), but I disagree with those who say it has no intrinsic value. First of all, emotion is a value in itself. Much as we would like to mash emotion down with prozac, xanax, klonopins, booze, weed, etc..., emotion is a driving force. But most people don’t like emotions, really, unless it is the joy. Feelgood. Tears, especially the exhibitionistic tears of a mother who has lost her son in a completely useless war… that we would prefer not seeing.
There is another valuable component here, however:
Most of the books of history I have read covering wars (and history is full of war, and hardly any of them brought any good) have a blustery feel to them, there are heroes and villains, there is drama and bathos… And windy politicians, 99.7% of them men, as masters of ceremonies… Anyway: The only author I know that really lets the soldiers and their families and friends speak, is Lyn MacDonald in her riveting series on World War One. This article does a bit of that work.
And it opens a few more serious issues that even the most staunch Bush supporter should consider:
Firsat: competence… There are many reports of the army flubbing logistics, doing stupid things that cost lives, theirs and ours. This is the problem when you give a spendthrift a blank check. In Reagan’s days it was 7000 dollar toilet seats and 120 dollar diodes worth about 3 cents retail. It breeds incompetence, laxity, laziness. The army should take its cue from business and from the little welfare system that is left: Streamline your operations… everyone is tuigh5tening their belts, you too.
The second problem with the overblown army, in my opinion, is far more dangerous: It has obviously given people a false sense of security under Prezdint Bush. Terrorism is a non-state enemy. And non-time as well. Al Qaueda has already shown that they can control our entire foreign policy (broken the alliance with Europe, enticed us into two costly and unsuccessful wars), because they have understood our nature as a collective: We like revenge, we like to think our “culture” is desirable all round the world. Terrorists also have their hands on our economy (had we followed Przdint Carter’s initiative to start saving resources instead of blowing everything out the window with the Reagan gibberish of feel good, consume now), we would not be in this spot right now. Mothers take out your hankies, this may well ciost us another war with Iran. To be frank, for bin Laden, George Bush is a godsend. His dad understood the dynamics of the entire Middle East far better, and I suspect that is why he left Saddam Hussein in place. There may be other reasons.Finally: The article raises an intersting question right in the first line, an interesting question that the president is not dealing with, but that every citizen should be asking: Why did we invade Iraq in the first place. With the money it has already cost (leave out the people, ours and theirs), we could have easily mounted some other kind of operation. Quick and dirty and with our signature on it. We have done it before --admittedly to easy targets, democratically elected heads of state like Mossadegh in Iran, and Allende in Chile--. So why not wait a little? There were many alternatives. It wasn’t the WMDs, it wasn’t SH’s human rights record (that is something that has never bothered the Republicans, Reagan even ridiculed Carter for his attempts to put human rights high on the foreign policy agenda, and as prezdint went on to aid and abet some of the most gruesome individuals and regimes around). I am not sure it was the oil. So what was it? Why are billions being spent and lives being lost in what is obviously a pointles war? Let’s brainstorm a little without judging first of all. Why do we have troups in Iraq?
Posted by Marton on Oct 13, 2004 at 12:28 AM Think about the fanaticism, mindlessness, and ignorance of Bush’s supporters, and imagine this country being ruled by them. Fundamentalism isn’t any more democratic when it’s christian.
Posted by Janet Contursi on Oct 15, 2004 at 9:28 AM Oh come on people. Niederer has placed her energy against the wrong side. Why isn’t she out there running her suck about how evil the freaking enemy is for killing innocents and our servicemen.
No...it is far more provocative to blame the President or a Recruiter. Come on, am I to believe that this womans kid honestly thought that he would never EVER see combat? You have to be kidding me. Nobody is that thick.
This kind of ignorance makes me sick. She needs to shut up, honor her son...be proud and quite making herself look stupid.
Posted by angrybrownman on Jan 13, 2005 at 10:41 PM Page 1 of 1 pages -
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