It’s such a bizarre and weird time in the world. This presidential race has become the biggest dick contest in history. “Your dick is indecisive!” “Your dick started an unnecessary war!” “Your dick didn’t get injured enough in Vietnam!” “Your dick didn’t even go to Vietnam!” “Your dick is soft on terrorism!” Has this kind of dick waggling happened before outside… return to article
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Reader Comments (213)What a concise, well formed article Margaret! You like, really, totally rock! That was so funny how you used the word “dick”! That is, like, so much how I was thinking but so like afraid to say!
Me want more!
Posted by Chris on Oct 22, 2004 at 2:05 PM Never paid much attention to Ms. Cho. My bad, this was hilarious, and of course right on.
Posted by g-love on Oct 22, 2004 at 4:21 PM Margaret, you owe me a new monitor! This piece was so funny—and so achingly close to the bone—that most of this AM’s coffee landed on the screen.
There’s so much to say about this great piece that I won’t even begin; I’ll just sing a chorus of what you said to the Pope: “You go, girl!” Love you madly.
Mass Lib
Posted by Massachusetts Liberal on Oct 22, 2004 at 4:34 PM That is the funniest article that has ever been written in the history of the world. Fact.
Posted by Clock Dude on Oct 22, 2004 at 4:47 PM Margaret - you are one cool chick telling it like it is! When you make us laugh—we understand things better.
Keep up the great (and very funny) work!
Posted by T.Allen on Oct 22, 2004 at 4:57 PM I have been watching you for a long time, and am so glad to find you here. Keep it up.
Posted by Lyssa on Oct 22, 2004 at 5:02 PM Margaret,
I went to the March for Women’s Lives in April along with my two young daughters. I loved your article, but wanted to make a comment. My daughters, my self, and my five sisters are all animal rights activists. Along with most of the animal activists I know, we are all also working on behalf of political prisoners, women’s rights, environmental causes, and many other related areas. My belief is that when you are a caring person, you care about everyone and everything - including women, children, animals, and the earth. The people we have to worry about are those who don’t care about anyone but themselves - which is most people I come in contact with at work, in the neighborhood, or at my kids’ schools. I also saw your short video on the March that was posted on your website - any chance of buying a copy of the whole thing?
Posted by Kathy on Oct 22, 2004 at 5:41 PM Margaret
I am one of most Canadians who are sitting on the edge of our seats over the US election, because what happens there infects, oops, I mean affects the rest of the world so much. The reason for the election turning into a dick-waving contest IS democracy. It’s the best system we’ve got, but it is based on the majority and unfortunately, the majority happen to be idiots. Even Kerry is forced to act like an idiot so that the majority can relate to him. It’s hard to fight someone like Bush, because it comes so naturally to him.
If you doubt my theory, just read the responses sent by Americans to the rest of the concerned world posted in the Guardian. It’s difficult for the rest of us to distinguish who creates the worst terrorists, the Muslims or the right wing Christians. It seems that they create each other. Maybe they are a gestalt organism. Anyone know of a cure?
Posted by Stan Funk on Oct 22, 2004 at 6:31 PM Margaret
I thought about it and decided I’m not finished yet. I think I can speak for the rest of the world outside of the US in saying what amazes us most. The US people impeached one of their best presidents ever for having sex with his secretary and now, they’re on the verge of RE-electing the worst president ever, even though he’s fucked the whole world. What does that say to us?
If Bush IS re-elected (God help us all), I think that Americans had better plan their future vacations within their own country, because I don’t think they’d be welcome anywhere else. We hold you all responsible.
Posted by Stan on Oct 22, 2004 at 6:57 PM If I don’t vote for Bush, and I didn’t last time, don’t hold me or the rest of us responsible. You think YOU’RE UNHAPPY? You have no idea what unhappy is until you are forced to have an idiot like Bush represent you internationally. He isn’t my president, never was, and God willing, never will be again!
Posted by Violet on Oct 22, 2004 at 7:17 PM You said it all so very well stan.Food and water for the people of the earth-NO MORE AMERICAN MADE BOMBS!!
Posted by richard on Oct 22, 2004 at 7:19 PM And for the rove administration…your dick has his hand up bush’s ********
Thank you Margaret for the humor in all of this. You and Molly Ivins deserve kudos for allowing us to laugh when despair and hatred seem to have taken over so much of this election and mood of the country.
Posted by Robin on Oct 22, 2004 at 7:40 PM Well Violet, I’m not totally “unhappy” as Bush has attacked your economy to the point where it’s raised the value of my Canadian dollar by 25%. That means I can now give more to the humanitarian causes that make a difference. This is the only good thing I can attribute to Bush, but don’t tell him, it might give him nightmares.
Posted by Stan on Oct 22, 2004 at 7:45 PM It’s not a threat Chris, just a fact. Canadians are not into threatening anyone and yes, we ARE cute.
Posted by Stan on Oct 22, 2004 at 7:51 PM .. Hahahahahaha… I didn’t know you yet, don’t live in the USA (ex-pat here!)... You fight fire with fire, and fundamentalism with humor… Go get them Ms. Cho, lets show them, there is a Republic out here that really gets a gas. Remember: “Du sublime au ridicule il n’y a qu’un seul pas!”
Posted by Talleyrand on Oct 22, 2004 at 8:19 PM Dicks and cockfights indeed,... Hey Margaret, what do you expect in an Erection year???
Posted by Marton on Oct 22, 2004 at 8:26 PM Ho-Ho-Ho—Margaret Cho
You wind up and really GO!Bush kin run but he cain’t hide
Glad Ms. Cho is on OUR side!From a Florida MOVEONer
Posted by Beverly Cummins/spangler on Oct 22, 2004 at 9:55 PM We need more rage (gay and otherwise) directed at those who would impose their straight laced life on everyone. Email them at work, church, home, etc. I wrote a letter to the editor of the home town paper after some church group and minister came half way across the country to yell at those of us at the pride parade in San Diego. My son had just died of Aids and this church group was yelling that they were glad he was dead. I would have shot someone if I had a gun.
Posted by belinda on Oct 23, 2004 at 12:17 AM belinda,
I am so sorry about your son. I have been involved with theater all my life and have lost a number of close friends to aids.
Many of our ancestors came to this country to escape persecution. How can an American call himself a patriot or a Christian and pass such cruel judgements on their fellow citizens?
The great writer and humanitarian,Eric Hoffer,said,“Freedom is the right to make choices other people disapprove of.”
I say"Amen to that”.
Posted by Beverly Cummins/spangler on Oct 23, 2004 at 1:51 AM I am a Christian. You are right, Satan is Intolerance and most Christian’s should be ashamed at the hate they sling on others. Jesus’ way was to and to heal the hurt and afflicted. And also to condemn those that hated and were self righteous in His name. I am sorry for the experiences that some of your readers have had at the hands of Christians. Please know that some have the love of Christ in their hearts and realize that anger will not solve the world’s problems but prayer will.
Posted by Connie Huber on Oct 23, 2004 at 1:12 PM At a time in history when we find our failed national media sources becomming concentrated into a half dozen media giants with the power to actually control the content of our news, we can take solace in the fact that just as timely, the internet has exploded onto the scene with an alternative route to real news, free of the political bastardization that so permeates our newspapers and t.v.‘s.
Thanks to the internet, we can and should be the most informed populace on the planet. Obviously, that is not the case, the reason being, the other side that is so guilty of bastardizing everything imaginable, is just as capable of using the ether waves for their misinformation dispersel.
Alas, at least we have an alternative, and because we do, we are able to read commentary and opinion that we would never happen upon without it. Thus, for those of us who are able to think for ourselves, we are better informed.
And better entertained. Thank you Margaret. Putting humor to such politically hot and contentious issues is the best way to keep them in perspective.
Count on me as one of your newest fans.
And Stan from Canada. Thanks also for your foreign perspective. I love Canada and it is always refreshing to here from one of our favorite neighbors.
Posted by james on Oct 23, 2004 at 5:19 PM “Animal activists are fierce. They are the most terrifying people. I just wish they would start working for human rights. We need them. Desperately. You don’t fuck with vegans. They are mean. They are scary. They are hungry.” -Margaret Cho
While that is actually pretty funny, most of the vegans that I know are mild-mannered and good-humored, not “scary” or “mean”. And why care about animals? Because like humans, they suffer as well: http://www.veganoutreach.org/whyvegan/animals.html.
Posted by Jon on Oct 23, 2004 at 6:21 PM didn’t this chick have a sitcom that died after pilot because it wasn’t funny. sounds like she hasnt changed much since then.
Posted by matt on Oct 23, 2004 at 9:41 PM Umm, what the heck do you know about dicks anyway, Margaret? :)
Posted by ndh on Oct 23, 2004 at 10:11 PM So…
I’ve got a similar slogan for me: “Silence equals nonexistence.”
How about…mediocrity equals nonexistence.
Is there something here that has not already been said by someone else, earlier?
Stick with your earlier stuff Marge…
Posted by Looking4Laughs on Oct 23, 2004 at 10:15 PM http://kerry-04.org
“And I’m very worried about the troops, but I’m also worried that my reproductive rights might be taken away from me.”
So someone is trying to take away your right to reproduce? Do tell. With rights come responsibilities.If the Islamofascists have their way and subject the entire world to Sharia law there will be no such thing as rights…especially for women. President Bush is protecting your rights whether you like it or not. How you could be so disrespectful is beyond me. Flame away if you must, I expect nothing less.
Posted by Effin on Oct 23, 2004 at 10:19 PM Actually Stan, President Clinton was impeached for lying under oath, after swearing to tell the truth, about his sexual relationship with Monica Lewinsky. When you’re under oath, you’re not supposed to lie about anything.
Posted by Jasper on Oct 23, 2004 at 10:26 PM What a skank you are.
You’re afraid of losing your reproductive rights?
Who the hell would fuck you in the first place?Get over yourself.
You are so…20 minutes ago.
Posted by Scorpios on Oct 23, 2004 at 10:41 PM Stick to comedy. There, you have a minor talent.
When you wander into geopolitical analysis, you show the world that you are dumn as a hoe handle. That is neither useful, nor funny.
Leave such matters to people who have more knowledge than you. Which means just about everyone.
Posted by John Armor on Oct 23, 2004 at 10:42 PM Might you kindly forward to me the Free Republic members who made foul and disparaging comments towards you.
At FR…we do not encourage nor allow foul language, regardless of any one’s point of view.
Nor can anyone from the FR website directly respond to you under their registered screen name.
If you were given FR screen names, it is possible, as anything is possible, within the web, that you were done in in by a troll.
I am sure you realize, that there are trolls on all sides of the political spectrum.
Thank you for this attention in this matter. I will always remain. FP
Posted by Focault's Pendulum on Oct 23, 2004 at 10:43 PM I’m not gay, but I am Asian. I was one of those people who attacked the bigots sending hate mail. I especially enjoyed th morons who used their work addresses. Once you know someone’s name and company, it’s surprisingly easy to find out who their supervisors, executives and owners are. I even found some customers. Thank-God for Google. It’s surprising how much interest some folks take in what their corporate e-mail is being to do.
Listen up, fuckwits- when you mess with one of us, you are messing with all of us, and we’re not taking it anymore. You can be as racist as you want, but there will be repercussions. Count on it.
Posted by Jane on Oct 23, 2004 at 10:48 PM Hey Stan,
You think that we Americans had better plan their future vacations within our own country, because you don’t think we’d be welcome anywhere else?
Sounds good to me. Any location in the USA is head and shoulders above any place else in the world. And that includes Canada. Nothing but whores and hockey players up there anyway.
Posted by Scorpios on Oct 23, 2004 at 10:51 PM Dear Jasper, I’m aware of this, but it’s that nit-pickly attitude that makes the US look so absurd to the rest of the world. His sex life to that extent was really none of anyone else’s business. It was a tiny little lie to protect people he cared about, quit obsessing with trivial shit. Clinton was as good a president as you’ve ever had. He may have had a hard-on, but at least he also had a heart and he cared deeply. The US went into more uproar over Janet Jackson’s nipple being exposed for 1/2 a second than it does for really crucial things that DO make a difference. Bush’s lies are HUGE in comparison, his actions are the exact opposite of what he really does and it costs people their lives. To believe him about anything confirms absolutely to being a complete idiot.
As an outsider, there were two things that made the Bush administration unacceptable to me, but they get absolutely no notice from Americans. One was the fact that Bush timed his tee-off at his golf course to the first bomb being dropped on Baghdad, the other was when they bombed 150 children in a shelter in Afghanistan by mistake and Rumsfeld’s literal response was to say, “Well, I doubt if they were baking cookies down there”. These things say a lot, They are NOT trivial shit, but no one listens or even notices. The Bush administration is made up of psychopaths and I cannot for the life of me see why anyone in their right mind could support them.
Posted by Stan on Oct 23, 2004 at 11:07 PM Well Scorpios, You definately sound like one of those who need to be quaranteed to your own country.
Posted by Stan on Oct 23, 2004 at 11:24 PM Oh, and Scorpios, My guess would be that you’ve never even been anywhere else in the world. Maybe not even outside your own neighbourhood. If you have, you probably had all your sense’s shut off, if you have any.
Posted by Stan on Oct 23, 2004 at 11:33 PM COMMENT REMOVED BY THE SITE ADMINISTRATOR
We do not tolerate racist posting at In These Times and have banned this account from further postings.
Posted by Ocean Islands on Oct 24, 2004 at 12:04 AM Hey Ocean..attitudes like yours reflect the hatred we Americans are trying to avoid showing to the rest of the world. Fortunately at least 50% of us know how rediculous animosity like this is.
Hopefully when the vote is 50-50…and if bush steals the election again, the rest of the world will know 50% of the voting public sees through the Rove/Cheney/Bush agenda as clearly as they do.
I for one, can not take responsibility for the actions of the mad man I did not vote for the first time,nor the second. I am only sad that I am forced to pay federal taxes, unlike his cronies or corporations.
Peace!
Posted by Robin on Oct 24, 2004 at 12:21 AM Thanks Robin, People like Ocean are unfortunate and I truly wish you didn’t have as many of them down there. They are too unevolved to even feel sorry for. Some of my best friends are Americans and we in Canada do realize the good you have. It’s just really scary when the ignorant become so predominant. The American responses received by the Guardian to their letters of concern were 90% from people like Ocean and it didn’t make the US look very good. The heading of their posting is entitled, “Dear Limey Assholes”.
And Jane, if you find the US too racist, you are always welcome in Canada. Here, when the Asian population got significant, we didn’t get racist, we went out and took courses to learn your languages.
Posted by Stan on Oct 24, 2004 at 12:47 AM I assume that “me” is you Ocean. I didn’t really think I should respond to your ignorance, but I can’t help myself this time. I’m amazed that you have enough synapses firing to use a computer, or even tie your shoelaces for that matter. I’m also amazed that God would have given your parents genitals to breed with. If God truly existed, people like you wouldn’t. I guess that answers that question for us.
Posted by Stan on Oct 24, 2004 at 1:21 AM Stan, you’re a moron.
Bill Clinton was NOT one of our better Presidents.
He was a power hungry, traitorous hillbilly skirt chaser who sold our missile technology to the Chinese.
If it weren’t for some chicken shit Republican Senators who betrayed their constituency, Clinton would have been convicted as well as impeached and there would be NO talk of any kind of legacy.
Get your head out of your ass and your mouth off of Clinton’s.
Posted by Scorpios on Oct 24, 2004 at 2:55 AM Well, this has been an interesting site but I do not care to stay in a place that that seems to be attracting foul-mouthed,hate-mongers.
I suggest you start your own web. What could you callit? Hmmmm…How about “Lowlife’s for Bush”!
Have fun. I’m outta here.
Posted by Beverly Cummins/spangler on Oct 24, 2004 at 3:02 AM Dear Stan,
What the hell is ‘quaranteed’?
Do you mean ‘quarantined’? Or is that how they spell it in your neighborhood?
(Oops, my bad. I meant ‘neighbourhood’.)
If so, I’ll gladly self-impose my own quarantine. There is nothing…NOTHING that any other country has to offer that would get me to leave the US again.For you own edification, I have traveled abroad. Extensively. But nevermore. To my eternal delight.
Now shut the hell up and go crack open another beer, eh…and go screw your sister. Again.
Posted by Scorpios on Oct 24, 2004 at 3:05 AM “The American responses received by the Guardian to their letters of concern were 90% from people like Ocean and it didn’t make the US look very good.”
Ahhhh…Stanley old boy. You just don’t get it.Those that you label as ‘ignorant’ are Americans who just don’t give a damn how we look to the rest of the world.
Why should we expend precious energy trying to impress the assholes at the UN who break our laws here while shielding themselves with “Diplomatic Immunity”?
And I do not speak of parking tickets and jay-walking violations.
I am speaking of drug trafficing and rape.Why should we?
Why should we supplicate ourselves to the Secretary General and his minions when he and others at the top of the UN hierarchy got rich from the sale of Iraqi oil?Oil that was to be sold for the purpose of providing food for the people of Iraq.
Oil that was NOT to be sold so that the French and the Germans and the Russians could take that cash from Sadaam in exchange for arms and nuclear technology.
Deals that were going on with Kofi Anan’s full knowledge while the French and the Germans and the Russians were doing everything they could to forestall the United States’ entry into Iraq to put an end to this madness once and for all.
All the while, screaming that Bush is mad and that they occupied the moral high ground by insisting that the very same United Nations give sanctions more time and issue more resolutions that Sadaam comply with weapons inspections efforts.Is THAT the high ground where we should look for international “friends” to impress with affected airs of dignified behavior and sensitivity?
Bullshit. Screw them. We don’t care what they think anymore. The UN is irrelevant. We are the future of this country. We will take back what is ours by birthright and expose and expel those who have fraternized and frolicked with those who would do us harm.
Come November 2nd, the current Administration will win its mandate from people like me. Millions of us who are sick to death of people like Margaret Cho and you.
You and the rest will see that this is the way it is to be.Resistance is futile.
Posted by Scorpios on Oct 24, 2004 at 3:40 AM Where did my other comment go? Is there a delay before you can see it?
Posted by traco on Oct 24, 2004 at 3:42 AM First let me say that of the many, many articles I’ve read these past months, this is one of the very best. I so appreciate anyone who can make me laugh these days, even more when it’s combined with political/social enlightenment. I feel sorry for those who can’t find humor in obvious places, and especially for those who have to tolerate the vile hatred and bigotry of others. I dare to speak for Jesus here; he would never condone what is so often said and done in his name.
Stan, the last few years have been devastating for millions of us here in the U.S. Our experience has been a combination of outrage, sadness, dread, and so on…these people do not represent us. But I do understand that you hold us responsible as a collective. We are going to give it all we’ve got to send them packing, for ourselves, for you, for the rest of the world. I love my country; but I have fantasies at times of leaving, esp. if Nov. 2nd becomes Black Tuesday. One of my friends has already left for Central America, and I don’t blame her, she has no children, no one she’s responsible for. But I do, and I am a patriot in the true sense of the word. We are past due for a Revolution and the time is at hand. It is time to take our flag back from those who wrap themselves in it to justify hatred, fearmongering, oppression and war. I hope with all my heart it can happen peacefully.
Posted by Peacemonger on Oct 24, 2004 at 4:34 AM Loved this peice, Cho’s humor is something we are all sorely in need of. Too bad closet queen neocons and gay bashing murderous so called Christian fundamentalists don’t know how to laugh…What the hell is a Christian fundamentalist, anyway? Is it somebody who’s trying to sneak away with the funds while pretending they can talk to Jesus?
What sort of con game is that? I do know one thing…they are fundamentally insane. I know this because the only immoral acts, to them, happen in the privacy of others’ bedrooms…and they want to be able to spy on everybody…who’ll spy on them and who the hell wants to if sex is some sort of demonic conspiracy and not a natural, Christ-sanctioned necessity. Do they ever read any parts of the Bible that have to do with the immorality of war, of the judgement reserved only for God when it comes to other human beings being executed because they’re too poor to afford the same lawyers that keep everybody in this fascist state out of jail for crimes against not only humanity but Earth…and against life itself?
Fear can really rip a new asshole in some people’s already moonshined brains and livers. They found Jesus too late…they have Sclerosis of the liver and a few brain cells left after years of dissipation and running with the devil…and then they claim to have found Jesus and are suddenly made judges of other men’s ostensible faults.
Nothing worse than a recovered redneck moonshine addict when they throw some black robes on him and put him on a bench to judge those who are still trying to live it up; enjoy a full life. Except of course having one in the White house…who has a hot line to the Almighty hissef. I could get a real laugh seeing him try to fit through the head of a needle whilst trying to snowjob St. Pete at the pearly gates…
Maybe the beams in these scoundrels’ eyes are so huge that no amount of spiritual purging can ever remove them because they sure as hell can’t see that immorality is something they do by just getting up in the morning ready to burn anybody who enjoys life at the stake…and not just about sexual preference and abortion…but that’s not any excuse to put them in positions of power…its more a justifiable cause to place them in psychiatric institutions on heavy doses of thorazine.
Maybe they don’t see that Emprah Dubbya and his dysfunctional madmen want to eliminate abortion so that their own chilren will have an ever-ready supply of fresh innocent young strong bodies to send into wars for profit of the future…
But I’ve found that no matter how high the price of gas goes up and every that other commodity follows in it’s wake using it as excuse to raise the prices on everything imaginable; no matter how often I point out that their Wal Mart jobs will never make ends meet for them even if they do work two or three other jobs at minimum wage; no matter how many times I pontificate about their lack of health insurance, the crumbling infrastructure, the loss of jobs due to, “outsourcing”, to slave wage or prison-manufacturing countries…they still want Bush and his organized crime cronies.
Not difficult to understand, though…they all speak the talk of the recovered addict and can’t allow others to get away with what they themselves sucked the marrow out of…Dubbya speaking toungues while rolling around a snakepit full of sidewinders…now that’s something I might think about asking to see before having him impeached and then thrown in with the monster sodomites in Leavenworth.
Posted by Dom Mastroserio on Oct 24, 2004 at 5:03 PM Wonderful peice. The sort of humor we all need in today’s seriously neurotic world…this scared of one’s own shadow pall we’ve allowed the Mega mafia in Washington to cast over us needs more of this sort of air-clearing, elbow in the ribs wake up and stop taking these rabbit-hearted clowns so seriously. After all, if they could laugh they wouldn’t need to pretend about billionaire Saudis in Pakistani caves carrying their porta-dialysis machines while trying to escape their righteous wrath.
Give me a break, you dour-faced maniacs…you know you committed all these crimes against humanity because you just can’t have enough euros in your untraceable Swiss accounts to make you feel you’re alive. How sad. But the hell with you…I’m just waiting for the day when Dubbya tries to fit through the eye of a needle and attempt connning St. Pete into getting into heaven…like he’s been duping the Fundamentalist Christian two-issue crypto-satanists…telling them than yes, only being gay and having an abortion are immoral…everything else has been sanctioned and given you it’s blessing from right out of the Jimmy Swaggert translation of the New Testament.
Killing, pillaging, raping,taking away civil liberties, outsourcing jobs to nations that use prison and slave labnor, invading significantly poverty-striken, bombed by us into the stone age countries is something the Almighty hissef told me - man to deity…is cool with Him…especially executing poor, convicted- because-of-lack-of-good, expensive-counsel-mud- folk…unless I need them on the front lines in Iraq and Afghanistan. And making sordid, obscene profits for the fellahs that bought my residency, I mean presidency…well, that’s just being neighborly and showin’ gratitute…even if the money comes straight out of American Taxpers’ pockets with impunity. I have had to eliminate civil rights and try to destroy the Constitution because God told me to…if they won’t pray in public schools, then they have to pay the price.
Division of Church and State? That’s what’s made us a Godless country…not the in your face corruption, using taxes to subsidize corporations, endless experimentation on the American people and lousy foreigners for eugenic purposes, (even though I don’t believe in science), sending poor kids to die needlessly in illegal wars…had to do it because well, Lord, they don’t know you…like I know you…So what if all these Churches don’t have to pay taxes…should that force them to not throw millions my way as political contributions even though they collected that money to help the shoeless folk in their communities who believe I have a personal and intimate relationship of the spirit with you, Lord.
And thus it runs on and on at the pinnacle of the World’s most powerful government. And they keep tellin’ me half the country wants this guy back for another four? How about just crowning him Emprah Dubbya The First and getting it over with once and for all so that we can abolish democracy altogether? He does so want to be a dictator, or actually a sort of Christian Ayatollah…hey, not a bad deal, really…after all, just what is the average lifespan of your average Christian Ayatollah, anyway?
Heil, Dubbya…America is no longer the land of the free and the home of the brave but the scene of a bad movie in the flesh…a sort of never ending story of how devolved a people can become when they’ve allowed themselves to be fear-frozen and xenophobically aggressive…bad combo, that.
Vote for Kerry…the true Conservative…he still lives in the third millenium, at least.
Posted by Dominick Mastroserio on Oct 24, 2004 at 6:16 PM It would seem that no column is immune to bad commentary, and hate is always peeking it’s ugly head and spewing, racist, homophobic, and misogynist filth.
I enjoyed Ms Cho’s view; although I understand that expletives are in common use these days especially amongst comediens; it would be refreshing to not have to resort to that, but alright, its just words.
The racist comments by “ocean” that were deleted were worse than some of the stuff I have read here?
Good to know that someone is acting as a gatekeeper and keeping extreme stuff out.
As we all have seen, humor and politics goes together quite well. If the current election weren’t so serious I might be laughing a little more. Jon Stewart and the Daily Show is funny.
I have no complaint with Cho’s positions and agree with all of them. If she can persuade and entertain with humor it can only be a good thing.
Posted by BAM on Oct 24, 2004 at 11:02 PM Please Margaret, come to me. Stay in my palace. Make movies for me. Our politics are a perfect match, and I’m so rone-ree.
Posted by Kim Jong Il on Oct 24, 2004 at 11:06 PM Beverly,
Free republic, the racists/sexists Margaret mentions in this article who sent her all of the hate mail in the first place, have posted this article on their message boards…that’s why the comments section has been overrun by “foul-mouthed,hate-mongers.” They do have their own site, but they like to spread their hateful stench everywhere.
Posted by Keri on Oct 25, 2004 at 3:48 PM HA HA HA
Thanks for the amusement! You can certainly tell who supports Bush and who doesn’t!“And that includes Canada. Nothing but whores and hockey players up there anyway. “
It always makes me chuckle when people think that their best argument is to name-call. It reminds me of being in Grade 3 when kids would say “Ya… well you’re UGLY!” because they have no viable comeback. Geez, I’m sure I speak on behalf of all Canadians when I see “Gee whiz… we’re so offended by what YOU think of us!” ha ha
Hey, who am I to judge? If all you Bush supporters don’t mind having someone who is plainly considered an idiot by the rest of the world, GO FOR IT! I wish you all luck in your quest for mediocrity.
Posted by Canadian on Oct 25, 2004 at 6:52 PM http://Kerry-04.org
“During World War II, young Rose Will Monroe was the face of American women in adversity: strong, supportive and resolute against the enemy forces that threatened our existence. Tens of thousands like Rosie rolled up their sleeves, gritted their teeth, and flexed their muscles in factories and shipyards and arsenals across the country. They made rockets and rifles and bombs and boats. They painted and drilled and welded. When they got home to their kids, they cooked and cleaned and collapsed in bed after praying for their husbands and brothers and uncles on the battlefield. Rosie and her sisters in arms didn’t have the luxury of complaining about their lack of ’me time.’ There was a war to be won.
And so, as this presidential campaign season has constantly reminded us, there is today. But Rosie is gone. And in her place, we have Hysterical Women for Kerry. They are selfabsorbed celebrities who support banning all guns (except the ones their bodyguards use to protect them and their children). They are teachers’ union bigwigs who support keeping all children hostage in public schools (except their own sons and daughters who have access to the best private institutions). They are sanctimonious environmentalists who oppose ostentatious energy consumption (except for their airconditioned Malibu mansions and Gulfstream jets and custom Escalades.) They are antiwar activists who claim to love the troops (except when they’re apologizing to the terrorists trying to kill our men and women in uniform). They are peace activists who balk at your son bringing in his ’Star Wars’ light saber for the kindergarten Halloween parade (but who have no problem serving as human shields for torture-loving dictators). They are ultrafeminists who purport to speak for all women (but not the unborn ones or the abstinent teenage ones or the minority conservative ones or the newly enfranchised ones
in Afghanistan). . . . We’ve come a long way, baby. The wrong way. Get a grip, girls. You are an embarrassment to a nation at war.”—Michelle Malkin
Posted by Effin on Oct 25, 2004 at 9:55 PM Oh Effin:
A nice homage to Rosie the riveter, but golly when you start trying to define contemporary women you sound like a Phyllis Shafley (pardon the spelling) clone.
Ann Coulter your probably not, but she sets your heart all a flutter when she starts mouthing anti-liberal nonsense I would suspect.
Your characterizations of women that are supporting Kerry are right out of the bible thumping play book to put women in their place.
Rather than attempt to belittle these women supporting Kerry why don’t you contribute some positive and constructive reason why these women should vote for your shallow macho man instead.
I would add that you are more of an embarrassment and haven’t any understanding of the real war women & men are faced with in our troubled times, and you probably don’t care how many die for your president’s behavior…
Another possible heroine of yours might be Peggy Noonen (sp?) former speech writer for another macho-man - Ronald Reagan. She speaks as a woman and I don’t pretends to speak for women. I haven’t heard her admonish women that are for Kerry, she of course is a class act regardless of her politics.
If you want to change anyone’s mind and teach a lesson, it’s a could idea to not began you lesson by demeaning their beliefs and life style…
One of the few Republican women that I can tolerate listening too is Laura Bush, but that’s because she comes off as superior to her husband.
And if you think this invasion in Iraq is anything like WWII you are as delusional as your president.
We were correct in going to war in WWII, we’re absolutely wrong in this one!
Posted by BAM on Oct 25, 2004 at 11:30 PM Sorry for the error the above sentence on Peggy Noonen should read…
She speaks as a woman and I doesn’t pretend to speak for women.
Thanks
Posted by Bruce A Morgan on Oct 25, 2004 at 11:40 PM Thank you BAM, I was thinking for a while that a Candian male was going to have to defend the intelligence of American women. I first assumed you were a woman, but you give no hint of this. Could it be that an American male saved me the trouble?
Posted by Stan on Oct 25, 2004 at 11:50 PM I think we American women can defend our own intelligence. After all, the statistics still show a majority of women ARE voting for Kerry!!
Posted by Robin on Oct 26, 2004 at 12:01 AM Sorry Robin, I was just waiting impatiently for someone to say something about that. The fact that men will stand up for women isn’t an insult, it’s a good thing, isn’t it?
Posted by Stan on Oct 26, 2004 at 12:07 AM I think men(and women) standing up for anything that is JUST and RIGHT is wonderful. It is the mark of a kind and decent human being!
Peace,
Robin
Posted by Robin on Oct 26, 2004 at 12:19 AM Hahaha. Yea, I’m afraid I’m a male and certain that women will be weighing in on the that letter from Effin.
Your contributions have been appreciated…
We, have to keep our sense of humor or end up in straight jackets maniacally laughing at the insane quality of what’s going on!
Take care up there in Canada…If Bush wins many of us may have to move.
Posted by BAM on Oct 26, 2004 at 12:23 AM Well, any American who votes against Bush and has a good sense of humour is certainly welcome in Canada. We have some right wing extremists of our own here, maybe we could send them down as replacements. On second thought, that might not be a good idea. The US would be left with only Bushies and nuclear weapons. If we all had the governments we should have, I guess it wouldn’t matter where anyone moved, that’s a freedom I’d like to imagine.
Posted by Stan on Oct 26, 2004 at 12:42 AM Dominick’s diatribes are appreciated and right on
to say the least…
Hang in there Dominick…good to have your thoughts and mind grappling with not only the condition of American politics but the human condition as well.
BTW: we never heard any more from our pro bush Army major.
Posted by BAM on Oct 26, 2004 at 1:00 AM Robin hit the nail on the head (as it were) this is not a female or a male issue its a human one!
I would also, agree that men - those so-called - “angry white males” will be voting for Bush in force and therefore support the fact that women are generally more intelligent than men, and those AWM’s are afraid of them and want to keep them under control - kinda like the Stepford wives. Women are generally more compassionate and concerned with the environment than men also. Now that I’ve said that, of course there are plenty of us men that love those attributes in a women…and are just as concerned with these issues as they are.
I’m decidedly a liberal in most of my thinking and I don’t drink lattes or French wines, or do any of the other things some conservative contributors like to attribute to liberals. I like to say that I’m so liberal that most of my friends are conservative Republicans. (which is sadly true)
Canada, yea, your right, it would be difficult to consider leaving this country to the Tom Delays of this world…They have to be slowly whittled down with inexorable and persistent liberalism. Not the kind of liberalism that they are attempting to define but the genuine article.
Posted by BAM on Oct 26, 2004 at 1:27 AM Bam, I fully defend women and men as equals, but I have to stop at saying women are MORE intelligent or compassionate than men. From my experience, there are as many “angry white females” as there are men, although my experience is mostly of Canada. I keep hearing women say that if they ran the world, it would be a just and peaceful world. When I look at the women who have ruled, eg: Margaret Thatcher, Indira Ghandi, Megawati Sukarnoputri, Condoleesa Rice, Katherine Harris, I have to wonder. Would it really be any different?
Posted by Stan on Oct 26, 2004 at 1:57 AM Scopious is particularly a distasteful fellow and prone to outrageous and obviously stupid commentary.
He was probably stationed in Europe as a military brat or even a soldier…
The xenophobia is there, the ignorance is there, the dumb comments about Clinton and on and on. I can’t even go into the Cinton bashing, otherwise I would write for an hour how his esteemed Republican party wasted a lot of time and money in an attempt to destroy him and failed. Some of these Bozo’s are
still lamenting the presidency of FDR! They are like their symbol and “never forget” their original dumb Republican mind-set. (sorry, no intention on being critical of elephants)
If I didn’t know better after reading many messages posted throughout this site
and others there is a serious animus developing and it feels a lot like war.
Making a spelling errors now and then is part of this process, I’ve made a few and let a bad sentence or two get through, but why waste time pointing out
nonsense when the essence of what’s being said is the most important part of
participating in these places. Obviously, if you point out that quarantine was meant rather than how it was spelled you understood what was meant!
(Don’t wtsae tmie bneig cneocrned with msisplleed wrods - when you grasp the entire meaning of whats being said!)
Bush mangles the English language frequently, more than many of these posters and I suspect those that are focusing on a misspelled word in a message probably ignores that in their man.
Stan: I of course agree with what you just posted. I was primarily referring to being superior to the angry white males as a group.
Your very right about women being as capable of being stupid too. Watching many of those KKK women speak was frightening to say the least.
There is a nature/nurture element in all of this, and I personally couldn’t do the argument any justice but women generally show more aptitude early on in school and it begins to balance out later on when males begin to dominate and assert themselves.
I did a paper once on the value and contributions of women through history…in doing the research I learned a lot more about the female of the species and how
we males have basically withheld their emergence as equals. These “angry white males” are the hold outs and closer to the Neanderthals with their clubs than contemporary evolved males.
Many of the women you mentioned are intelligent
but that doesn’t mean they are any more moral or capable of dealing with issues than an equally
educated male.
Education and environment play a big role. Something else the Bush administration is attempting to control…
Posted by BAM on Oct 26, 2004 at 2:50 AM Most of us would agree that men and women are equal but different. There is a large nature/nurture component to the debate of course. I would argue that nurture in large part has played a negative role in history to control women and suppress their learning etc. “Angry white males” that are so prevalent during the voting process banging their egos on the hoods of their pick-ups and voting for George W. Bush - that epitome of male intelligence and feigned machismo are the hold outs of the - me man, you woman, Tarzan mentality.
I hardly need to point out to anyone the history of the treatment of women as a group. Even today, some devote Christian groups want women in their place (whatever men say that is!) and literally subscribe to biblical writing that supports their men are superior attitude! The bible was predominately written by men of course. (there is records however, that women contributed here and there as well)
In many societies men are allowed to kill women for minor infractions of sexual protocol. Women must walk behind men, can’t speak in the presence of men, they’re sexually mutilated to prevent them from enjoying the pleasures of sex. The mistreatment goes on and on, and it’s happening today!
Our government is trying to control the bodies of women through, incremental anti abortion legislation. The Laci Peterson law was a neat maneuver wasn’t it?
We became all to aware of how the Taliban treated (still do) their women to our amazed western and modern view. (I suspect that many males here in this country secretly wish they could control our women like that) You have read right here on this site words like,“Feminazi” and other euphemistic terms for liberated women. Those vocal “angry white males” respect their mothers but not women as a whole. Those angry white males often will seek what they believe to be more subservient women such as the stereotypical Asian woman commonly found with American GI’s that served in Vietnam and elsewhere in Asia. Americanization often (not always) changes their mind-set, to the dismay of the males that want everything so so.
Women are being physically abused as frequently today as they ever have been but we have become more civilized and put the abuser in jail. Men still get away with rape, especially if they are rich, hell, they can often get away with murder if they are rich and well known enough.
Now, I won’t pretend to have any answers about which of the species is in fact more intelligent or more compassionate, you can cite arguments for both, but it’s men that do most of the abusing, it’s men that do most of the killing, it’s men that do most of the molesting, it’s men than choose to go to war, and its men who control most of everything.
The issues are far to complex to try and flesh out why women would vote for Bush, when he’s blatantly trying to get them under control…It’s education! Not whether you have a degree or not, but total life experience with a liberal education. (We see a lot of people running around with educations that seem to be pretty dumb, and many people without formal educations that are pretty smart.) The president emphasized education during the third debate, although he doesn’t really want you to learn how to reason and be critical, he wants you to accept what they believe they want you to learn so they can control you better when you grow up. It’s to late for many of the adults that are losing their jobs. They have lost there usefulness, we don’t want to pay them a livable wage, let them lose there house and live on the street.
So it’s an interesting debate, well not really a debate, but a polite look into some differences in viewing the world. It will hopefully stay polite until the Neanderthals enter and begin swinging their clubs around and grunting a lot.
As Robin rightly points out, its doing the right things that count most.
Posted by abs on Oct 26, 2004 at 4:51 AM Sure ...
http://www.goldismoney.info/forums/showthread.php?t=14209
Posted by Matt Marriott on Oct 26, 2004 at 9:36 AM Okay so like a wise woman once said, “I need Botox injecions so I don’t look surprised when Bush Blows up the world”.
Posted by Pam on Oct 26, 2004 at 12:36 PM Margaret - - Bless you and thank you so much for your work. If Bush gets re-elected, the fact that you exist in this world will provide a great deal of comfort. Regarding the religious right, isn’t it ironic that they are so vile and angry over the “good news” of Christianity?
Peace & Love, Jonathan
Posted by Jonathan on Oct 26, 2004 at 1:51 PM Huh?
“sure”
Sure, what?
were you commenting on the link about the law suit? (which wasn’t entirely clear)
Is there a link between abortion and breast cancer? Never heard of that before, but because the link provided no evidence it’s difficult to
comment on the link.
I’m sure of one thing, we can make up links to anything.
Is there a link between growing up with our heroes and heroins smoking and drinking on the big screen and adopting the habit ourselves as the adult thing to do, emulating Bogart and Bacall.Is there a link between watching FOX news (or much of TV cable news) and misunderstanding the war in Iraq, misundrstanding who was responsible for 9/11?
Is there a link between being brought up in the south and being racist?
Is there a link between playing violent video games and violent behavior?
Ok, I could go on, and the speculation as to any validity to the links can be made convincingly
or argued against.
Recall the debate as to whether the silicon breast implants were dangerous or not. In spite of evidence that suggested that they were; apparently there wasn’t enough of it to outlaw the use.
There is always two sides of any issue…“every action has an equal and opposite reaction”...
Is there a link between this blurb and the article it follows?
Posted by abs on Oct 26, 2004 at 1:55 PM Margaret the “Revolution” is in progress! We are winning! You truth, honesty, and explicit love fot the “American way” is what is right with this country.
George W Bush and his supporters are what is wrong!
Seven days to American Regime Change! Let Freedom reign!
Democracy and Freedom are on the march George, and they are marching right past you!
Posted by Gary on Oct 26, 2004 at 2:20 PM Thank you!!!! I almost fell out of my chair laughing so hard. I am a pro-feminist and I 100% support women, gay marriage, free expression and tolerance.
I am voting for Kerry as I will move to Canada if Bush gets re-elected. May the diety of your choice save us all if Bush gets in.
Posted by Michael on Oct 26, 2004 at 5:10 PM About 25 years ago, I read an article - I believe it was in Discover Magazine - about primitive societies and the way in which traditionally “male” and “female” character traits were held in esteem according to the availability of life’s necessities. The gist of the article was that in societies in which land, food, and other essentials were in abundance, traditional “female” traits such as nurturing, kindness, gentleness, and love were more honored. Deities in this case tended to be female. In societies in which those necessities were in short supply or were in danger, traditional “male” traits like aggression, courage, confidence, and physical fitness were preferred, and the deities tended to be male. This makes sense; in both cases the admired characteristics contributed to the prosperity of the society.
More recently I read a wonderful piece by George Lakoff entitled “Whose Family Values” (published on Alternet) concerning the difference between the conservative and progressive approaches to social and political issues. His contention was that the difference comes down to this: conservatives believe in an authoritarian father figure in the family, the workplace, and in government, while progressives believe in equality among the members of these entities. It’s a matter of how one defines family values.
From these two articles, I’ve extrapolated a theory concerning the machismo currently permeating our social and political landscape. Somewhere in the midst of the 20th century, it became apparent to many Americans that, in fact, there really is enough to go around. It’s just that some people have more than their share. The hippie phenomenon, feminist movement, anti-war protests, and non-violent civil rights movement were all indicative of this realization. Love, peace, sharing, and non-aggressive responses to violence all gained socially acceptable prominence in many quarters. A society that admired “feminine” character traits began to emerge. (I say “began” because it was never completely realized.)
The segments of society threatened by this emergence were powerful, wealthy white men and working class white men. And, it would seem, some of the women in these same categories for reasons I cannot fathom. Perhaps they felt that their source of support was going to disappear. In any case, there was a huge backlash fueled by neo-conservatives, corporations, and rightwing Christians. It’s not a coincidence that conservative Christians hold feminists, hippies, socialists, and gays responsible for the decline of Traditional Family Values, which they define as someone’s “wearing the pants in the family,” acquiescence to that person’s orders, and respect without question. Theirs is often an angry, jealous god. It follows that the Bush Administration would expect no less than abject obedience from the American people. Opposition equals lack of patriotism and all that.
Hence the purposeful creation of extreme fear among our citizens. The war on terror, the war in Iraq, the huge deficit, the depletion of our resources all point to a need for male superiority, for male aggression, for male character traits in general. We are now a society in which the necessities are being Threatened in a Big Way. And once again (if it ever really quite went away) it’s acceptable to call men “girlie” as an insult. There is no outcry against coaches who bolster their teams by calling them “ladies.” Femininity is degraded as less than what is needed to keep us safe in our beds.
The political environment requires our leaders and candidates to prove their manhood as a prerequisite for office. Whoever has the biggest member must have the best qualifications. “We will never back down!” “We will find them and kill them!” “We must never indulge in appeasement!” “We will ensure that our enemies are vanquished!” Warriors all.
And, meanwhile, more Americans die from exposure to pollution caused by large corporations, hunger, unsafe cars, diseases untreated due to lack of insurance, the effects of poverty, street gangs, and domestic violence than are likely to die from terrorist attacks. All of these issues could be assuaged using “feminine” approaches.
I do not take the threat of terrorism lightly; of course it is a real issue. However, when Bob Schieffer in the third debate asked Kerry if our country could ever go back to being as safe as it was prior to 9/11, and Kerry answered in the affirmative, I was stunned. Didn’t these people hide under their desks in school during air raid drills? Do they forget people frantically building bomb shelters? The danger then was hyped, too. Threats of future terrorism are still conjectural. And they are exacerbated by the men in power who are very, very afraid of a country in which “feminine” qualities are admired and their strutting displays of masculinity are not so honored or desired.
Posted by LeeAnn Gallucci on Oct 26, 2004 at 8:12 PM Very good Lee Ann:
We do indeed have more to fear than terrorists, and as you rightly point out there are more deaths being caused from many homegrown and resolvable threats to our lives, health and environment…
Posted by abs on Oct 26, 2004 at 8:52 PM Massachusetts Liberal must be my ex. I saw Margaret with someone a lot like this Lib back, oh, around 91 or 92 and found her mildly amusing. But liberal I was not, and the liberal chick has been my ex for quite some time. And now, my WIFE and I say, GO W! YEAH! KICK ASS! WIPE THE FLOOR WITH TRAITOR KERRY, THE MANCHURIAN VIET CONG CANDIDATE WILL GO DOWN HARD! COMMIES SUCK!
Posted by CA_Reactionary on Oct 26, 2004 at 9:36 PM Oh no, If I didn’t know better I’d say this CA_Reactionary sounds a lot like - Yes, Carl! He’s like that Halloween movie character that just keeps coming back no matter what you do get rid of him…
Posted by abs on Oct 26, 2004 at 10:06 PM RE: I am voting for Kerry as I will move to Canada if Bush gets re-elected.
Be sure to surrender your passport on the way out. What, you think I am joking? Seriously, if that is how you feel, we don’t need you here. Same goes for others with this outlook. Go to some other country, where there is a 75% Socialist majority. Happy for you, happy for me too.
Posted by CA_Reactionary on Oct 27, 2004 at 1:20 AM RE: The US people impeached one of their best presidents ever for having sex with his secretary
Personally, I wanted to see him impeached for:
* Irresponsibly drawing down our military in search of a so called “peace dividend” to be used for bread and circuses aimed at the various identity politics groups, and, general welfare addicts
* Promoting the disgraceful lapses in security which resulted in military and technological secrets being shared with Communist Red China
* Taking illegal campaign contributions for foreign countries (particularly Chinagate).
* Being involved with the Russian Mafiya
* Dereliction of duty in that he failed to back up the IAEC when they caught the DPRK red handed developing nuclear weapons. Instead of backing the IAEC, he did a secret appeasement deal with the DPRK.
This is but a sampling of the grounds for not only impeachment, but treason prosecution.
Posted by CA_Reactionary on Oct 27, 2004 at 1:27 AM RE: Margaret the “Revolution” is in progress!
If you are contemplating overthrow of the government, that is a Federal crime, punishable, at the maximum, by capital punishment.
I don’t care where it comes from, Right or Left. The Constitution must be upheld. Jacobins, of all stripes, be they in Move.On or in Christian Identity, ought to be rounded up and incarcerated.
Posted by CA_Reactionary on Oct 27, 2004 at 1:33 AM I used to be know, in Drag, as Ms Me Me More. But I think I may have to change my persona to Misses Mongolian Chink Dyke. It has a happier ring to . Don’t you think ?? Being a white boy from the backwoods of Connecticut it also suits my complexion. Love To You Dear MC. And thank you for your heart, soul and voice. I cry inside for your ability to voice so clearly Humanly place….D
Posted by Douglas Marjory Boyce on Oct 27, 2004 at 1:52 AM CA, Human evolution has already made people with your mindset obsolete, now it’s just a matter of throwing out the trash. The only positive reason for someone like Bush getting in at all was to show the world how bad that mindset can be. Your day isn’t coming, it’s already over.
When I said that Clinton was one of your best presidents ever, I didn’t mean he was perfect, but in comparison to most others, he was great. When Kerry wins, (which he will by a landslide), he’s not going to be perfect either, it’s the nature of how we’ve let politics become. Bush has just informed the world that the trash is stinking to much to ignore. Sorry about your hopes CA.
Posted by Stan on Oct 27, 2004 at 1:53 AM HOT HOT HOT! I saw the Cho Revolution last spring, and i just went to see State of Emergency at MSU. Margaret is the perfect mix of dirty jokes, perfectly inserted (penile?) political stabs, and an accurate portrayal of the human condition. Margaret, revolution is yours.
Posted by Bryan on Oct 27, 2004 at 2:58 AM Stan:
Good words to, CA.
I was going to address his nonsense, but his just being on this site and bashing Clinton when he has just surfaced to speak in support of Kerry, well, you said it all. I don’t want to waste any more words on him…(He’s a typical Clinton hater…stuck with the frustration that they couldn’t stop him)
Posted by abs on Oct 27, 2004 at 3:36 AM I traveled abroad this summer and I was amazed that much of the world is paying attention to this upcoming election. Regardless of what some people think, America is a part of the greater world and I think we need to begin acting as such. And I don’t get, how can people not like Canadians? I am American, but I love Canada :)
Posted by Pamma on Oct 27, 2004 at 3:53 AM Pamma, Your poem sums it up nicely. Bush’s lies have caused what I would call genocide and worse.
When I went to see Fahrenheit 9/11(here in Canada), it was playing in 2 theatres at the same cinema and they were both full. I noticed that I was the only one there who was over 30 years old, maybe because it was the 10pm showing. Of course, this was a movie where everyone talked through it and I was listening because I was by myself. These young Canadians knew everything in it like it was old news. Later, I went online to find the American reaction to it and was amazed that they were saying, “I never knew this! Is this true?” I was puzzled why a country that is proud of it’s freedom and democracy would have such censored and biased media to not know all of this. I have also read about how many Americans think the White House is somewhere near Seattle and that we Canadians live in igloos. What’s going on down there?
Since Bush started this big mess, Canadians have been studying the US constitution, the history of Bush’s family going back 3 or more generations, Kerry’s life, US policies, etc. The people outside the US seem to know more about the US than the people in it do.
Yes, the whole world is obsessed with this upcoming election, because Bush has affected the whole planet in a horrible, horrible way. The world was a different place before 9/11 and it’s not just the attack on the twin towers that changed it. What happens to America, happens to the whole world and what happens to the world, happens to America. We are all connected.
Posted by Stan on Oct 27, 2004 at 5:18 AM right on the money, ma’am, as usual with you. Plus, you + cape = hot. Continue to kick ass.
Posted by Mark S. on Oct 27, 2004 at 6:09 AM Why can’t people just try to read between the lines and understand that you are just talking about a free world… for everybody!?
I AM A GAY MAN AND SO REALLY PROUD TO BE WHAT I AM! Thank you Margareth, cannot wait to se you in Sydney, Australia, in february!xxx
Posted by carlo on Oct 27, 2004 at 7:42 AM Hey CA, if you’re out there and any other of you clinton/democrat bashers. You and I both know our system here isn’t perfect. Stan knows it and if you haven’t noticed, the rest of the world seems to realize this too. Hate/fearmongering just isn’t what the rest of the world wants. They’re not going to get on this ride with with the United States Government anymore. When I say the rest of the world I don’t just mean the world governments I mean the people (power to the people). Just so you know, since it seems like you need things like this spelled out for you Bushies, Bush has been apart of more scandals and treachery than any president in my lifetime. At least what’s been reported to us, what about everything that hasn’t? Read the news guy’s it’s all out there now. Your wonderful psycho president and his cronies managed to have everything kept hidden for long enough to ambush the trust of the people of the US. Some of them, like you, still want to believe that everything is all right and your president talks to angels. Let me tell this to you straight- the only angels George is talking to, are the fallen ones-
One day you’ll wake up, or maybe you won’t, but the world is waking up and the day they want to see is a day of peace. I hope we can achieve that, but as long as the haters and fearmongers are still out there we have a problem. You’re the minority of people that are in the way of true peace and we ask you nicley to get out of the way and stand with us, if you won’t then maybe our last exercise of an unpeaceful gesture is going to have to be to kick you asses.
Peace and power to the people
Posted by Leebo on Oct 27, 2004 at 1:14 PM Spelling in out?
E-n-r-o-n
H-a-l-l-i-b-u-r-t-o-n
W-M-D
I-R-A-N (oh you probably can’t see this one coming)
You know there’s more than that. I just realized I don’t have time to sit here and do this all day.oh and I meant kick your, but you knew that didn’t you.
Posted by Leebo on Oct 27, 2004 at 1:29 PM RE: He’s a typical Clinton hater…stuck with the frustration that they couldn’t stop him
In point of fact, I was quite neutral about Clinton until he made his geopolitical missteps and commited treason. Treason is the sort of thing that I would never accept, whether done by a Dem or a Pub. Everything I mentioned is open sourced, widely available and factual. Must reading:
“While America Sleeps” Kagan and Kagan
“Year of the Rat” Triplett
Posted by CA_Reactionary on Oct 27, 2004 at 2:32 PM RE: Read the news guy’s it’s all out there now.
Certainly, the main stream media hate Bush. Why is that? Look firstly at generational demographics. Most of the management in the MSM are Baby Boomers and, as a subset of them, are comprised of the factions who protested the Vietnam War, who sought to overturn the cultural norms, who rebelled against authority and their parents, etc. So there is certain socialogical factor at play there. Look secondly at the market demographics. Since the advent of cable and later the web, the overall percentage of people who got their news from the MSM went down. Those who remained tended to be more poorly educated and at a lower income level than overall society. Naturally, since the Left traditionally claimed to represent such a demographic slice, the media outlets for whom that slice constituted a customer base increasingly geared their presentation to fit a Leftist world view. Ergo, in the MSM, Bush hatred is the norm.
Posted by CA_Reactionary on Oct 27, 2004 at 2:39 PM More must reading:
* “The Origins of Totalitarianism” - Arendt
* “Modern Times” - Johnson
* “Intellectuals” - Johnson
* “The Abolition of Britain” - Hitchens
* “1984” - Orwell
* “Mr. Sammler’s Planet” - Bellow
* “Bend Sinister” - Nabokov
* “New Lies for Old” - Golitsyn
* “The Perestroika Deception” - Golitsyn
* “The Decline of the West” - Spengler
* “Origins of the Fourth World War” - Nyquist
* “Imperialism” - Lenin
* “We Will Bury You” - Sejna
* “The US Constitution” - Washington, Hamilton, Franklin, Morris, Blount, et al
Posted by CA_Reactionary on Oct 27, 2004 at 2:59 PM Ok, it can’t be “Carl” because CA is more articulate even if cut from the same political cloth.
If your wasting your time with Clinton Bashing I’m unimpressed with you state of mind being capable of understanding anything relevant to current issues.
Talk about how great you think Bush is, and not give us your biased opinions of former presidents.
Republican’s continue, through a lot of wishful thinking to try and erase the scandalous Nixon period, and attempt to characterize the Clinton presidency as something as close to evil as they can get away with. I’m surprised you didn’t mention that Clinton probably killed Vince Foster.
With all the resources and money spent on trying to destroy Clinton, you failed, either because your prosecution was totally a collection of stupid people that couldn’t chew gum and walk at the same time or because Clinton was absolutely
not guilty of any impeachable offense. I believe the later but also believe the former has an element of truth to it as well. Those hollier than thou Republicans couldn’t see beyond their fear that Clinton was making substantial advances and they hated him for it. Whenever they had a confrontation, Clinton made them look like fools.
The stain on Willinsky’s dress has more substance that the current addeled brain
occupant of the white house. But, hey, your probably one of the best examples of Republican bias that has entered this site.
Your probable intention was to offend somebody. Sorry, we’ve heard much of this scaca before and we’re unimpressed.
Your reading list is interesting…
Keep reading however…it may eventually do you some good.
Apparently 1984 didn’t have the impact upon you thatit had on me.
Posted by abs on Oct 27, 2004 at 3:25 PM CA Reactionary,
It is interesting to learn what goes on in the mind of a reactionary. I appreciate that you are upfront about what you are.
You are very clear about what it is that you hate, but I would like to know what it is that you LOVE? Do you want to see a world at peace? Most people do but differ about the way this can be accomplished.
If you were president, how would you deal with the many other nations who view America as an imperialist?
I certainly don’t have the answers. I only hope that whoever wins does and can lead a United States that is truly united.
Posted by Beverly C. Spangler on Oct 27, 2004 at 3:53 PM Beverly, thank you for the well thought out post. To answer your questions:
RE: Do you want to see a world at peace?
Theoretically, yes. That said,and I shall develop this further below, I do not believe that permanent peace is realistic.
RE: If you were president, how would you deal with the many other nations who view America as an imperialist?
Firstly, I think that some education would be in order. During the age of Imperialism, the European powers clamored to carve out terroritories and to overtly colonize vast stretches of area. During that same era, the US only tested the waters, completing the settling of the lower 48, wresting a few small slivers of land from Spain, and, making the first tentative moves toward our eventual number of 50 states. Rapidly, being that we were of a very isolationist background, and ourselves the product of a struggle for liberation against a colonial power, we lost our taste for any sort of true Imperialism. Instead, we settled for soft power projection and, whatever influence we might gain from allowing commercial enterprises to operate outside of our own borders. This mindset led us to where we are today. With an Army only the size of the DPRK’s, and our modest (in terms of inflation, material cost and real wage adjusted dollars) military expenditures, there is essentially no way we can be an imperialist power. Most people, as well as most businesses, lack the stomach for Imperialism and if we were to spend what was truly needed to be an Imperialist power, rest assured such spending could not be sustained for very long. As evidence of this, one operation, which, versus things like World War Two, is only minor, namely, Iraq, has already overtaxed us. Among any group of would be “Imperialists” we are the 93 pound weakling, and, amongst our bourgeois masses, are not of a martial orientation at all. All of this must be stressed to those who genuinely believe we are imperialists. Others who use such a label disingenously are simply liars and ought to be so labelled.
As for what I would propose:
* We must objectively analyze all of the assumptions and beliefs which went into the two major geopolitical settlements of the 20th century, namely, the conclusion of WW2 / the UN Charter and, the conclusion of the so called Cold War. How do they stack up against the lessons of history? What do they do to the viability of the nation state? Are there fatal weaknesses in them, which are not repairable? And if so, what will be the consequences when these constructs fail?
* Have we been completely honest with ourselves regarding the root causes of WW2? Certainly, at Nuremburg, we punished. We exhumed concentration camps. We attempted to make fascism a taboo, and in much of Europe, in North America and in Japan, we largely succeeded. But we ignored the rest of the world. There, fascism has bred, and flourished. “Mein Kampf” is selling at a record rate - and most of the sales are in Asia and Africa. As for the other procrustean evils at the root of WW2, because, for better or worse, we had made a deal with the devil and allied with Stalin, we did not dare attack Communist totalitarianism in toto. Our Cold War stance was merely a practical means of dampening factors which might have led to renewed great war. But we never discredited the overall, procrustean mindset, per se. Again, the way to festering evil was opened. One of the sources I referenced above is a very good one - Arendt’s “The Origins of Totalitarianism.” Looking at the world today, particularly, vis a vis various pan movements, various Jacobin movements here in the West, and at the overall cacophony of rote anti authoritarian behavior on both the Left and the Right, in all nations, I am troubled. I believe that Arendt’s book was stupidly passed over. It was too uncomfortable of a read for all but the most sober souls. And we shall likely learn that in a sad way.If I could, I would feature that book in a big way, and use it to create a positive program to eradicate and discredit all procrusteanism.
* The essence of the USA is personal responsibility and the rights of individuals. It is based on the Magna Carta. I would propose a broad review of all existing statutes and public policy against such core principles. Social engineering must be discarded. Fabianism has no place in our system. We must simplify, simplify then simplify some more. We must encourage emigration of those who do not want to truly participate and who are here only for money, or in hopes of destruction of the USA and its replacement by European style socialist parliamentry structures. Those who are attracted to those things can find them already in place elsewhere. We are different. We want to be different. Call it exceptionalism if you like. We are exceptional - in history, in demographics and in core principles.I hope that answers some of your questions.
Posted by CA_Reactionary on Oct 27, 2004 at 4:41 PM Someone make a web version of this; I don’t have the skills or the equipment. It’s public domain. Feel free to improve on it….
> A female narrator accuses Kerry of being dangerously weak on national security, while a pack of wolves—standing in for terrorists—prowl menacingly onscreen.
I wish the Democrats would answer them, instead of just complaining that the wolf ad is despicable.
“Who Let the Wolves Out?”
A black and white, simple animation or even a storyboard as the ad itself:
We see a figure in a business suit walking away from us towards a hornets’ nest. He has a stick.
ANNOUNCER
If you’re going to take action you need the right reason. (Subtitle: No WMDs Found in Iraq.)The man smacks the hornets’ nest. The hornets swarm out, buzzing.
ANNOUNCER
And you need the right plan. (Subtitle: CIA Sees Continued Chaos in Iraq.)The hornets continue to gather. The man hesitates in limbo with the stick, his back to us.
ANNOUNCER
And you need the right target. (Subtitle: No 9/11 or al Queda Connection to Iraq - 9/11 Commission, FBI.)Wolves appear behind the man in the suit, who is worried about the hornets. The wolves’ fangs are dripping.
Posted by mad_cowed_disease on Oct 27, 2004 at 6:11 PM You mindless hypocrite…
It’s nu-cle-ar (as in nucleus)
NOT nu-clear…Dumb broad, I hope noone is minding this drivel…
Posted by Shel on Oct 28, 2004 at 1:34 AM —
Margaret
I thought about it and decided I’m not finished yet. I think I can speak for the rest of the world outside of the US in saying what amazes us most. The US people impeached one of their best presidents ever for having sex with his secretary and now, they’re on the verge of RE-electing the worst president ever, even though he’s fucked the whole world. What does that say to us?
If Bush IS re-elected (God help us all), I think that Americans had better plan their future vacations within their own country, because I don’t think they’d be welcome anywhere else. We hold you all responsible.Posted by Stan on October 22, 2004 at 1:57 PM
—Hi Stan, well guess what. We, as in everyone but the “rest of us,” hold you responsible as well. If you truly believe that what happens in the US “infects” the “rest of us,” you should be doing a hell of alot more to affect the election in the US then just posting some crappy generalizations on an American based website. I resent your statements whole-heartedly and you’re just the type of person I’d love to meet on the street and personally give my opinions to. Generalizations are the root of half the problems you, no doubt, believe America started….. but yet you yourself generalize. Please be advised, you’re the worst form of protester ever.
[This was written in a span of 2mins, if you find anything wrong with the grammar, contact Stan… I’m sure he’d love to generalize on how all Americans obviously can’t write properly.]
Posted by M. Nunes on Oct 28, 2004 at 4:10 PM M. Nunes:
If you would have just take a few more minutes you might have shared what your opinion was concerning Ms. Cho’s, prose or the war in Iraq, the election, but you chose to react to Stan’s comment instead. He was expressing his opinion from where he is located. Certainly, generalizations are commonplace and we must be careful to not offend people such as yourself that refuse to be labled or bunched together…and gets rattled when someone makes a generalization; but we listen to politicians
not only making them but also making outrageous misrepresentations causing people to die…
Posted by abs on Oct 28, 2004 at 6:20 PM M. Nunes
As all can see, the only one criticizing grammar was the one like-minded to you, “Scorpios”.
I have done what I can as an outsider. For 3 years, I have written to your senators, supported the US websites that promote “real” democracy, written letters to your citizens through the Guardian project (only to get hate mail in return, telling me to get lost and cursed by Americans such as you). That’s WHY we have to hold you all responsible. We, on the outside can do very little and it is up to you to vote so that your country doesn’t ruin the whole world. Divided as you are, we have to see you as one country and hope you can save us from your administration. You can puff up your feathers knowing that our fate is in your hands.
Know also that the rest of the world can survive. If Bush got in for 4 more years, it would probably result in the final world war, the US against the rest of the world. Take note: Bush set the precedent for pre-emptive strikes. Right now, the US has the most WMD, it is the biggest threat to world peace with the current evil dictator, etc, etc. At a time when you can’t win a war against a relatively defenceless country, it wouldn’t be good to take on the whole world. We realize that the US has at least 50% good people, we just hope that’s enough. The whole world is part of you, not just your back yard. Think objectively, please.
Posted by Stan on Oct 28, 2004 at 7:19 PM Stan, yet again you’re casting stones. That’s all your comments are… telling us who IS responsible. WE get it already, now shut up. Telling us how much you hate us, that we vote wrong, that we don’t brush our teeth the right way is NOT going to change anything. We’re sick and tired of hearing it from people like you. If you want to preach so much, why the hell don’t you just come and live here? Oh, you don’t like America? Then shut up already… we don’t like hearing your criticism 24/7. It’s nauseating; it’s like nails across a damn chalkboard. Just shut up. If it’s not our own politicians constantly calling our house every minute of the damn day, it’s “outsiders” like you shouting about what us Americans do in our own damn country. Give it a rest…
[P.S. I still didn’t even say if I’m Republican or Democrat or who the heck I’ll be voting for and you already are telling me I’m the problem…. no sir, you’re the problem. You’re annoying, you don’t impassion Americans like myself or anyone else you’re the broken record that just won’t shut up.]
Posted by M. Nunes on Oct 28, 2004 at 8:27 PM To abs:
Well since you asked, I’ll personally give you my viewpoint on Ms. Cho’s work. I think it was great in terms of entertainment and a little over dramatic, but I can also tell you that I’m not a gay person trying to live in American, nor am I North Korean. So I see things from a different perspective. I’m educated enough to know that my prospective is NOT that of more than 10% of America and therefore I digress and form opinions based on material such as what Ms. Cho has written. I can also tell you that while I didn’t agree with going to war and still don’t agree with it that I’m not so quick to judge my current President on JUST the war alone. If it wasn’t the WAR everyone would be casting stones at him for something else. On this gloomy Friday, I can tell you I’m definitely not ready to vote come Nov. 2nd. I’ve still not made up my mine who is better for our country. I can’t say Bush did anything that really helped me personally, infact I could probably list a few things he did that could potentially harm me in the future. On the other hand I’m not ready to claim Kerry is any better for our country. He’s done alot of talking about what he’s going to do and very little about how the heck he plans on doing it all (typical for any politican, I know). I can also tell you that I don’t historially tend to agree with the Democrats or their grandiose government-based programs… I think such matters are better off in the private sector with just a tad bit of TLC from the government.
Anyhow… I like Ms. Cho’s piece for its entertainment value and I’ve even taken it into consideration when it comes to voting, but I’ve done so in context. I’m not going to let the overdramaization for the humor-value lean too heavy on my decision. Afterall, Ms. Cho is a comedian and caters to a very specific group in America… she no doubt has their best interest at heart, not necessarily the entire populous of America. What can I say… politics are inheritenly selfish and that’s what I hate most about them, but let me be clear.. I 100% resent people such as Stan… the type that would rather blame everyone then taking their message to the most appropriate group in question. To be quite honest, I consider his opinion absolutely useless. I’d never take anything he has to say to heart. His speech is way too hateful toward all of America and I can’t stand to hear it. I’d gladly tell him so in person if I ever got the chance to meet him. Blaming everyone never got anything done… all it ever did was cause more problems and serve to hinder any advancement. Maybe you should learn that Stan. Until you do, you probably shouldn’t be penning anymore letters to Americans as I’m sure they all read just like your posts on here! You want compassion and understanding? Stop throwing around generalizations and blaming everyone!$@
Posted by M. Nunes on Oct 28, 2004 at 8:50 PM y’know, i don’t really endorse homosexuality, & could stand to see alot less of it on TV, but i realise that somebody somewhere thinks we need to be “saturated” w/ it in order to get people accustomed to a lifestyle thats always been around & isn’t going anywhere & really has been unfairly demonized for centuries…i hope one day it won’t be an issue, the gay people will have the rights they want (& deserve), & nobody will give much of a flip about sexual preference (or skin color), it’ll be like, hair color or eye color, or something equally trivial…& we won’t have a government run by superstitious psychos…
Posted by dAve on Oct 28, 2004 at 9:01 PM M. Nune, I DON"T hate you. Hate is for those who are full of fear, hate is the result of fear. I would only be guilty of disappointment in the retarded evolution of mankind. I happen to be much more civilized than the society I live in.
I deeply regret having to be the one scratching my nails across the chalkboard. I would love to say that I’ve got better things to do with my life, but nothing is more important at this time and I wished that you’d realize this too. I’ve lived through many hot wars and the cold one as well as many presidents. I don’t have many years left and I would like to see some sanity in the world before I leave. I live by the conviction that everyone should leave the world a better place for having been here and the very least of a beings responsibility is to not make it any worse. I wish everyone could dump their religions and live by this. It’s so simple.
Posted by Stan on Oct 28, 2004 at 9:03 PM M. Nunes
I am sorry if I offended you. At first, I thought you were one of those who thinks the term, “open-minded” meant some type of head injury, but you’re not. You have a conscience. Bush and his administration do not, they are sociopaths, psychotics. He has probably done more harm to you than you realize. Kerry’s far from perfect, but he’s the only chance there is, because he does have a conscience. I think he is probably much better than most think he is. No government is anywhere near what it should be, ours included. I see more and more in the world, where a country’s military that used to defend the people from other hostile countries, is now used to defend the politicians from their own people. Don’t let America become one of these.
Posted by Stan on Oct 28, 2004 at 9:24 PM Fair enough. I’ll do my part; just please don’t blame me for something I didn’t agree with, don’t agree with, never voted for, and probably never would vote for. ;)
Posted by M. Nunes on Oct 28, 2004 at 11:13 PM I always knew Margaret Cho was a comic of minor talent, but now her ranting affirms that she is even more modest as a thinker and writer. Funny how any talk or even innuendo of female sexuality administers swift and deadly backlash from the feminist front, but talk about male genitalia, swinging, no less, gets front page billing in In These Times.
No, Margaret, what we don’t want is a president with reserve, self-control and political correctness. What we need are more politicians who are visionaries and who speak with passionate conviction about our country’s ideals. If you want reservation and dispassionate serenity, I suggest you check out a Buddhist convent.
Then there’s this nonsense about terrorist attacks on Manhattan ATMs. If you’re going to tell a joke, Marg, at least try to say something funny, for crying out loud! Even the stuff about Birkenstocks; is this the best you can do? If you’re looking to improve your ability at quick wit and social satire, at least try emulating the likes of Jackie Mason or the late, great Rodney Dangerfield. Oops, I forgot. Those are…….yeccchhhhhhhh………MEN!
I regret to inform you, but no one since Jimmy Carter, has pronounced the work nuclear correctly. So, Americans can’t pronounce well or spell. What’s your point? And as for the increasing number of pubescent anorexics dominating our upper class suburbs: what does that have to do with the presidency, for heaven’s sake?
I’m flabbergasted by Margaret’s ignorance about gay/lesbian issues and media coverage. Doesn’t she listen to the radio or read the tabloids? Hell, about the only thing you do hear these days is about one burg or another battling it out over same sex marriage. What’s most scarce these days is any news about urgent issues such as chronic unemployment, companies moving to China, urban traffic, the decline of the middle and working classes, the suffering soldiers in Iraq or these outrageous gasoline prices that will wind up putting many working people and small entrepreneurs into the poorhouse. But, silly me to worry about those things! Rather, we Americans should be losing sleep over whether or not Adam and Steve may be yoked for eternity in wedded bliss or whether Margaret and Mona get to adopt little baby Bobby with the penis.
Yes, the religious right is scary and out of control, but so is In These Times for giving voice to Margaret Cho and her incessant use of foul language, not to make any specific point, mind you, but merely for affect. This is to show that ‘litter Miss Malgalet’ is not some pushover Asian hussy with bound feet who shuffles from place to place and will ‘rove you rong time’. And, yes, Fox Network and the big Australian who runs it is very angry stuff, but what’s Margaret’s rhetorical hogwash?
As for the death penalty, yes, Margaret, our justice system ought to step up the acquittal of every inmate on death row immediately, especially one that may some day murder you, one of your family members or perhaps your lover because a 10,000 year old dog commanded him to purge the world of all lesbians. And while some animal activists may be fierce, they’re no fiercer than angry feminists whose desire it is to rid most of the world of males, except for the few metrosexuals whose semen is needed to impregnate the world’s kinder, fairer species.
And, Poor Margaret. Feeling insulted and persecuted these days? Yes, I know how much Asian bashing there is out there and how difficult life in the suburbs has been for you. Your sad fate is almost as bad as what those Jew and Black malcontents have had to put up with for so many centuries. Corporations must really hate Asians, since so many of them are hiring them by the thousands. That is, of course, if they don’t move their entire operations out to the Orient to employ them. After all, we American folks are lazy because we don’t desire to work 100 hours a week and give up the last shred of our civil rights like they do in China and throughout the rest of the Orient. Free Tibet! Start by freeing America.
As for living in America as a minority, with or without your paper cuts: Have you been to California lately? New York? Chicago? Miami? Though this won’t make me politically correct with you or any of the readers here, I can steadfastly affirm that white males over 35 are the minority, especially in the workplace and on university campuses. I worked in a college where several very qualified white male professors were turned down for less qualified women and persons of color. I suggest that Margaret try living in her ancestral Orient where she’ll really feel welcomed, and where she’ll have a lot of rights, especially as a woman. Oh, and I should add that she will have to lose some weight and gain another bust size before they’ll consider her for most executive or more visible positions.
Margaret’s comments on AIDS are totally rhetorical to the point of absurdity. Silence doesn’t cause aids and if we don’t all talk about it, we’re not all going to die of it. Unprotected sex and infected needle drug use causes the disease. As for Bush being Hitler: well, I don’t like Bush, and I hate this whole political system we’ve had since Ronald Reagan, but Bush is not Hitler. They’re different. Margaret needs to read her history, and not just the one she learned in her feminist studies class. Cliches and slogans do not make for social change, political action and right reason do.
True, the people who support and think like George W. Bush are not that smart, but then again neither are wretchedly schooled, mediocre comediennes who thrive on knee jerk reaction and in-your-face acts of tongue lashing and ball kicking. Ms. Cho is obviously an angry, spoiled, upper middle class brat born of parents who are wealthy industrialists or owners of nail spas in blighted black communities.
What appalls me most however, is how readily most of the readers of this forum go along with Margaret’s every thought as if it were holy writ. Funny, how followers of Rush Limbaugh and other opinion makers are labeled a bunch of reactionary yokels and ditto heads, but suck-ups of Margaret Cho and other cliché-ridden ne’er do well ilk raking in the big bucks and basking in Hollywood limelight get unanimous approval. I am bracing myself for the backlash that is to follow, and I expect to be handled speedily with a chain. To readers of In These Times, I say it’s okay to take the risk of thinking for yourselves. That’s what the promise of American freedom and democracy is really about, not celebrity worship or those who attended a Susan Faludi seminar.
In These Times, once again, I’m ashamed of you. Is this the best you could do, especially at such a critical juncture in our nation’s history and just prior to a horse race election? You certainly would do your readers a lot more service by enlisting the likes of enlightened thinkers such as Gore Vidal and Studs Terkel, or even Michael Moore and Barbara Ehrenreich than an angry enfant terrible with a huge axe to grind and a bag of self-serving comebacks.
Oh, Miss Cho, the word you keep blotting out with the symbols ####: perchance do you mean C UNT?
Posted by mb on Oct 29, 2004 at 4:02 PM I didn’t know who Margaret Cho was before her appearance here. Apparently many of the posters are aware of her, attended her appearances and read her writing elsewhere.
I frankly don’t disagree with “mb”‘s appraisal although I’m not sure of the necessity for the extensive criticism, but I can’t make any judgement on her beyond what appears here.
She must be appealing to enough fans to keep her going. Using expletives is part of contemporary language and sure it is somwhat disturbing but just words, not bullets, not bombs and not harmful if they are used to make people laugh and even think.
Posted by abs on Oct 29, 2004 at 4:40 PM Hi! We met on another thread and I am in complete agreement with your sentiments. What we ALL need to concentrate on are the areas we have in common and not on our differences. This is the only way we can come to a “meeting of the minds”.
Posted by Beverly Cummins ? Spangler on Oct 29, 2004 at 6:16 PM OOps! I put in a question mark instead of a slash after the maiden name! In case anyone doubts, I DO know my parentage back to the revelutionary war!! Haha and LOL!
Let’s keep our sense of humor about this whole ridiculous world we live in. God(Allah,the Creator, the Force,—WHOEVER) bless Ms. Cho, Geo. Carlin, Steven Wright, Kurt Vonnegut,Mark Twain, and all those who realize that life is short and we were meant to enjoy it. After all—-we ain’t gonna make it out alive,are we?
Have fun on Halloween. Watch out for the tricks! Gather treats!! Bev
Posted by Beverly Cummins/ Spangler on Oct 29, 2004 at 6:41 PM Even though George Bush claimed to be a “uniter” (Another new word he’s invented. The dictionary can’t keep up to him) and NOT a divider, I don’t think anyone in the world could disagree that the US is now more divided than it ever has been or ever could be. Yet, this election is not a choice of one extreme or the other. If Bush is elected (or selected), it would set the pace for one extreme with little chance of recovery from that direction. If Kerry is elected, it’s not the other extreme, but a choice of how the US wishes to continue. To explain further, I suggest reading the article on “open-democracy.net” At
http://www.opendemocracy.net/debates/article-3-117-2184.jsp
Posted by Stan on Oct 29, 2004 at 6:43 PM OOPS! I clicked a ? instead of a / after the maiden name. In case anyone wondered,I DO know my parentage. Haha and LOL!
Posted by Beverly Cummins/Spangler on Oct 29, 2004 at 6:55 PM Today, Osama bin Laden issued a statement. The statement largely contained, as its content, many of the same ideas and propaganda as that presented by Michael Moore, by MoveOn.org and even by Kerry. Also, notably, bin Laden had a very secular, radical Marxist theme, in his message. He is shedding his disguise, that of a “cleric” and showing his true nature, that of a Marxist revolutionary. Many people do not and will not fully comprehend the earth shattering nature of today’s statement. At least not yet. I do urge reflection on today’s events, not to mention the resurfacing of allegations of Kremlin involvement in the movement of weapons and personnel from Iraq into Syria as well as their apparent close ties to the Mukhabarat. We can be useful idiots or we can be awake. Those who are awake will soon realize that whether one is Dem,PUb, Green, Libertarian or whatever, you’ll be enslaved in the future if you fail to fight against the Axis which is threatening Western Civilization and all we hold dear. I make a particular appeal to homosexuals and people of color. You are being used now to create schism in the USA and throughout the West. However, as the evils of National Bolshevism set forth on their global conquest, you shall be fearing for your freedom, at the very least. When the Allies said never again in 1945, they had a vague notion what that meant. Howver in the intervening years we have failed to eradicate the procrustean disease. Here we are again. I wish you all well.
Posted by CA_Reactionary on Oct 29, 2004 at 11:15 PM The real threat to western civilization is IGNORANCE! The breading of, the control of, the policy of ignorance, and the propagation of ignorance in the guise of “truth” over the radio
Osama bin Laden recent appearance if indeed it was that recent. I, regardless of the image, will not necessarily agree that it was him speaking.
You are making an appeal to gays and people of color to understand something you haven’t explained, who is using them?
You must be listening to Michael Savage is my only conclusion based on your rhetoric.
Posted by abs on Oct 30, 2004 at 12:04 AM Margaret,
You’ve done it again! You are a constant source of inspiration and hope to the Global Community. You are an amplifier for a voice that needs to be heard. If you repeat the truth often enough, will those brain-washed ditto heads finally believe it?—I’ve seen you on stage, I’ve caught you on TV, and I read the news about your interviews. You are the person of the hour, and you will forever be my hero. You empower us all, and you do it while entertaining so wonderfully.
Posted by Michael on Oct 30, 2004 at 10:39 PM a message to Scorpio:
We have morons like you in Canada…but at least we have a press and medias that are careful to put in check your intellectual capacities.
Posted by raoul on Oct 31, 2004 at 12:32 AM Thursday 28 October 2004
When I was home in New Hampshire on leave last month, a lot of people approached me to tell what a good job we’re doing here in Iraq.
I appreciate the support, but I don’t need the media or those people to tell me what I see every day. We are not getting the job done.
People ask me, “How’s it going over there?” Cities have been overrun and are in a state of lawlessness. My job brings me into the streets. I see these things as they happen. They aren’t just headlines for me. All we are doing here is treading water, and at this rate we can’t keep afloat much longer. I’m just a simple man, but I can see that everything this administration has done with Iraq has been dead wrong.
We appreciate your support, but we can’t see those yellow ribbons from here. I ask that you let your vote show your support. I don’t know what you go to bed thinking, but I go to bed wondering not how many more years of this administration I can handle but how many more days I might survive.
George Sprague
Balad, Iraq
Posted by Stan on Oct 31, 2004 at 11:06 AM This is a sad reality for most Canadians: Next Tuesday we might have to face four more years of fear mongering by the most powerful corporate gorvernment manipulating a population who sees the world through CNN and Dysneyworld. How sad that in the land where freedom of speech is a given one seldom hears the voice of the foreign press / media. Has the film “The world according to Bush” been seen on T.V in the States?
Posted by raoul on Oct 31, 2004 at 7:18 PM Mountain Topping
Deforestation - cut down the trees to save them
Overtime Rule Changes
Oil Exploration in Alaska
Gerrymandering
DeFacto Elimination of Separation of Church & State
Patriot Act - civil “rights”
Non-adherence to the principles of the Geneva Convention
Defacto Elimination of CONGRESSIONAL APPROVAL (see representation of the PEOPLE) to wage war
Need I go on.Oh…coming attractions
School Prayer
Social Security Privatization
Abortion
States Rights (see Marriage, Sex)FOUR MORE YEARS!....of darkness
Posted by LIBERAL and PROUD on Nov 3, 2004 at 3:05 PM Three quarter of the Canadian population would have never voted for Bush…In France and Germany it’s over 80%...Putin from Russia is on the repression side…China can’t stand minorities or anyone going against the capitalist state government. But their population is not in love with the Bush regime…Most of Europe thinks he is a danger to the world…interesting time ahead. To all brothers and sisters on the left, get united and fight back: corporate fascism is on the move. Who said history repeats itself?
Posted by raoul on Nov 3, 2004 at 8:53 PM All things happen for a reason. We took a step back, but that won’t mean there won’t be long strides ahead. Many States are now “protected” from the threat of gay marriage, but how long did their protection of the front seats of a bus last? How long until all drinking fountains, restaurants and movie theaters were open to everyone? How long until it became a crime to harass patrons of “gay bars” simply for being who and where they were?
The Times They Are A Changin’!
Bob Dylan
Posted by Michael on Nov 3, 2004 at 9:23 PM Yesterday (November 2, 2004) was a great day for America!
George Bush received more votes than any President in our nation’s history.
George Bush received a majority of the votes cast - while Bill Clinton always received less than 50%.
Republicans have expanded their hold on both the Senate and the House.
Tom Daschle has been given his pink slip.
With the Executive and Legislative branches nailed down, our next acquisition will be the Supreme Court.
We have collectively told the looney left to go away and let the grown-ups run the country. Or, in the immortal words of Theresa Heinz Kerry, we told you all to “Shove it!”.
I know that you people thought it was really cool when that looney bitch sneaked into the Republican convention with her useless protest against Dick Cheney. In fact, she was profiled in a positive light on this very site. But I told you then to laugh it up while you could, because the time was coming when you would all have your sorry asses handed to you. I was right, you were wrong. Deal with it!
So, goodbye George Soros, MoveoOn.org, Michael Moore, Tom Daschle, Jimmy Carter, Dan Rather, Al Gore, Bruce Springsteen, Ben Afleck, Barbara Streisand, Garrison Keilor, France, Germany, other assorted socialists Euro-trash, and all of the other nutjobs who now hang their heads in shock, depression, and disgust. But most especially, goodbye to the two Johns and their clueless wives. You gave it your best shot, and you lost - big time. The power you thought was your birthright has eluded you yet again, and your misery is music to my ears.
Buh-bye to all of you, and good riddance to all of you.
The Patriot
Posted by Patriot on Nov 3, 2004 at 9:30 PM Another asinine statement from Stan: “I don’t think anyone in the world could disagree that the US is now more divided than it ever has been or ever could be.”
Stan, try the CIVIL WAR, for starters. I could cite other examples of this country being more divided than it is now but I’m not going to waste too much time trying to educate somebody who clearly knows nothing about the United States. So here’s a better idea: quit running you goddamn mouth about how we should run our country. Americans don’t badger Canadians about Paul Martin or what you choose to do with your own government. Sure, some might call you a bunch of pussies for being under the British crown but we don’t butt into your affairs like you do ours. So quit you bitching and mind your own business.
“When Kerry wins, (which he will by a landslide)...”
Wrong again, LOSER!
Posted by Ted on Nov 4, 2004 at 1:11 AM I’ve long thought that the U.S. should turn Canada into a storage facility. Or maybe a parking lot. You know - something useful.
Posted by Patriot on Nov 4, 2004 at 1:23 AM Two thirds of the human body is water and two thirds of the world’s population are idiots, is there any correlation? Does this mean water is stupid? Or, is most of the world washed up? Is the top half of the glass full and the bottom empty?
Patriot, Ted, you may think I’m asinine and I speel funny, but my personal Canadian opinion is that you’re dumb as shit. You didn’t win, you lost like the rest of us, you just haven’t found out yet. The only thing you have in common with me is that someday, we’re all gonna die.
Posted by Stan on Nov 4, 2004 at 12:11 PM Nice reply, Stan. I point out a glaringly ignorant remark and all you have to say is that you think I’m dumb. Well, that’s fine, think whatever you want, but your argument still falls flat. If you have any response other than that you think I’m dumb then let’s hear it. Otherwise, please take my advice and quit pretending to know about the United States. You’ve already demonstrated that you don’t know shit. Let us worry about our country and we’ll continue to extend that courtesy to Canadians.
Posted by Ted on Nov 4, 2004 at 5:12 PM Stan the Canadian wrote: “You didn’t win, you lost like the rest of us, you just haven’t found out yet.”
My reply: Stan, if you utter one more ridiculous statement, I’m going to send one of our local Boy Scout troops up there to take over your country and turn it into the world’s largest bowling alley.
Patriot
Posted by Patriot on Nov 4, 2004 at 6:35 PM Hey Maggie,
U sucky sucky…love me long time. Get over it beyotch!
Posted by Brownthunder on Nov 5, 2004 at 1:47 AM We here in the United States need to get over the delusion that we’re the kings of the world. We’re #1 only in a few select areas, the rest of the top prizes are won by other nations! For example: Canada is the #1 Nation on Erath in overall desirability (includes high standard of living, low crime). Finland is #1 in the quality of education (includes the world’s highest test scores). Switzerland is #1 in the Western World for prolonged Peace.
The USA has a long way to go in order to claim superiority over other nations. Stop looking for reasons to be “boss”, and start looking for ways to be a team player. The biggest mouth won’t get the most pie. Most overbearing loudmouths are speaking out of ignorance, and they prefer doing so anonymously.
If you don’t want it printed on the cover of the New York Times (with your name in the headlines), don’t do it, don’t say it, and don’t write in an e-mail.
Posted by Michael on Nov 5, 2004 at 2:10 AM Good post,Michael. We don’t need to model our president and assume his arrogance. This is a new century and we are citizens of the world. Over 38 years ago our astronauts showed us part of the Universe we’d never seen. This experience was humbling to us “grownups”. Sorry about those of you who missed it.
BTW, we progressive liberals are not going away. It’s the reactionary dinosaurs who will be left behind and gradually become extinct.
It’s merely a matter of time.
Posted by Beverly Cummins/Spangler on Nov 5, 2004 at 9:37 AM To all of the great Americans who voted against Bush, we of the world salute you and want you to know that we share deeply in your frustration and sorrow. You may have feelings of being alone in your own country, but we want you to know that the rest of the world is with you.
To all of those who DID vote for Bush, we ask that you go one small step further and have his ass tattooed on your foreheads, so we can identify you if you try to sneak into one of our countries. Thank you.
PS, This isn’t so ridiculous, is it Patriot?
Posted by Stan on Nov 6, 2004 at 8:01 AM When you think about it, it makes perfect sense for people not to like gays and lesbians. Look at the facts:
As a groups, we are more intelligent, more congenial, more talented and better equipped to lead, we are more compassionate, more generous and we make more money. Our men are better looking (not to mention better endowed), our women are physically stronger, and we are overal just plain better human beings. We even fight for the right to join our armed forces in combat instead of enjoying the free ticket as “gay and unwanted” members of society, while others go over and beyond to insire they never get their own fannies into harm’s way.
We have produced a disproportionately larger number of people who changed the world for the better. We produce more doctors, more scientists, more Nobel Prize Winners, more entertainers, more people in the area of making life more joyful than any other group.
All we ask in return is to be accepted as who and what we are, and to be treated eaqually as citizens in the eyes of the law. Instead we are greeted with fear, bias and hate, fueled by misguided “values” and ignorance. Forgive them, Lord, for they know not what da hell they’re doing!
Posted by Michael on Nov 7, 2004 at 9:36 PM Dear Michael, Although I am not gay, I wholeheartedly agree with most of what you say. I think that maybe you underestimate the human side of heterosexuals when you keep saying, “most”, but that is your perspective. It’s like when you buy a particular car, you suddenly see the same ones everywhere and hadn’t noticed it before. I imagine that most of your best friends are gay as well and the rest are those few of us to be accepting of differences, so that’s the way you see, it’s your reality.
I was raised with a Mennonite background and throughout history we’ve been criticized for not killing other humans when we were told to, even though we’ve worked on the front lines of war unarmed, as doctors and nurses. We raised money, food and help for orphans and widows in the wars and were still blackballed for not killing. Such is the world of “people”.
In this divided world, I think there has become a division between the meanings of the terms, “people” and “humans”. Humans are what we were intended to be and people are what we’ve mostly become. The biggest problem with the population is that it’s too full of “people”, just as the biggest problem with governments is that it’s too full of politicians.
I would say that about half of my friends are gay or lesbian. This is probably why I agree with you so much. I have found that your “group” has it’s share of throwbacks just as ours does, but I realize that it’s due largely to the oppression of not being able to be yourselves in a closed society. And then there’s always the percentage of whackos that are in every community, Bush being one of them and his voters being most of them.
Please don’t judge us heterosexuals too harshly, just because of our sexual preferences. There are many great humans in our group too. All we can do is our best and hope that “people” eventually evolve enough to get along. By the way, here in Canada, gay marriages are legal in most places and the rest will follow soon. We do have a flood of Americans applying at immigration since the election, but I hope enough “humans” stay there to correct your country.
Posted by Stan on Nov 7, 2004 at 11:20 PM Stan—Thanks for your support, and here’s some clarification, just so I’m not misunderstood: When I speak of people as a group, I certainly leave room for exceptions on either end. Not ALL gay people fit my description, and not all heterosexuals fit another. I speak in generalities, and there are exceptons to each norm. Incidently, most of my friends are NOT gay. I grew up in a country that has similar liberal views with little (if any) discrimination of minorities. I’ve visited Canada, but I’m much happier living here (in the USA). The current fever of concervative, self-proclaimed righteousness and “calling” to stamp out homosexuality is (in my opinion) the flare up just before the collapse of such warped thinking. The ignorant won’t take over, and reason will prevail. It won’t be another generation, but rather amatter of years or even months. Most of those who read this will see drastic changes (for the better) very soon.
It would interest me to know hoe homosexuality is viewed by the Mennonite community. Since so many of your friends are gay, this seems very unusual. Is homosexculaity accepted or condemned? How does this affect your choices in associating with gays and lesbians?
In general, though, you agree with my observations? We (GLBT populatuon) do have better human qualities. We do care more, know more, learn easier, are more productive, and most importantly (aside from our sexual preference) are genuinely better liked. Anyone outside of our group has plenty of reasons to be jealous or even afraid. Why else would we be persecuted?
Posted by Michael on Nov 7, 2004 at 11:36 PM Hi Michael, I don’t think many Mennonite communities are exposed to the gay culture and I haven’t been in that environment for so long it’s hard for me to say what their views are. I do know that many misconceptions are made about the Mennonite community. For one, people assume that they are sexist and yet nothing could be further from the truth as they cherish each other as absolute equals. In other things, I think their lack of being prejudice is a matter of not being exposed, either to prejudiced people, OR those that are judged by them.
I grew up being open-minded, because I am not “normal” in other areas (thank God!) In an earlier post, I wrote, “I live by the conviction that everyone should leave the world a better place for having been here and the very least of a beings responsibility is to not make it any worse”. I am over half a century old now and I have never hurt anyone, either physically or otherwise. My choice in associating with gays and lesbians is influenced by the kind of humans I find them to be. Again, this is why I agree with you on their qualities. I don’t have a homophobic cell in my body, because I am comfortable with my own sexuality and my G/L friends appreciate me. I identify with them because we share so many qualities and sensitivities.
Posted by Stan on Nov 8, 2004 at 1:15 AM Stan—You certainly are “different” in many ways. You say you are past 50 and heterosexual. Ever married, children? You say the Mennonite community has no exposure to the gay community - HELLLOOOO! The Mennonite community has the same proportunate number of gays and lesbians as any other. Do they claim that homosexuality doesn’t occur in their midst? - You say you are not gay, have you hd many (intimate) heterosexual relationsjips? Saying and being are two different things. There are more GLBT inside closets than out. Sadly.
To want to be a positive force on this planet, to want to leave it in a better state than we found it, is noble in theory, but how are we actually “living” this ideal? Do we shun automobiles for their emmision of harmful exhausts? Do we forsake foods and drinks that harm the environment? Do we contribute time and money to causes that reverse the destruction of our planet? We can all wish and hope, but those noble thoughts do little to actually help. We could tie our pants around our waists with string, but I doubt that we will walk in rubber sandals to avaoid the use of leather. Will we give up all aerosol spray? How about conserving something as simple as tap water?
As much as I try to do my share, I still see the endresult of all efforts being a slowing down of Erath’s death, not a reversal of the destruction already done. To be realistic and be pleasantly surprised (at a better outcome) must be better than to dream a noble dream and awake in a nightmare.
It took me nearly 30 years to admit to another human being that I’m gay and that there is no chance of ever being anything else. For another few years I played around (you may call it “safer” promiscuity), until I found the true love of my life. For 8 years now I’m in this loving, monogamous, committed relationship. Who could possibly be harmed by our life together being sanctioned with legal status - a marriage license? The refusal to recognize gay marriage could only have a negative affect, as it could encourage people to go back to a promiscuous lifestyle. Marrigae would promote monogamy. Isn’t that what those holy “straight” folks want? I think the GLBT community will always get exactly the opposite of what we ask for. It’s all part of the plan to “wipe out homosexuality”. Is this 2004 or 1004? Sometimes I wonder.
Posted by Michael on Nov 8, 2004 at 1:32 AM Dear Michael, I am not in the closet by any stretch of the imagination, but you’d really have to know me to understand. One doesn’t need sexuality in common to have friends with different preferences. My experience of having gay friends goes back 40 years and it’s because we share many other values and sensitivities (I’m sure you know what I mean). Frankly, it’s a lot easier for me to find friends who I relate to in the gay community because of this, as long as they respect my preferences. I have had many good hetero relationships and most of my ex’s are still my closest friends, except for my ex-wife, but she was a whacko (long story) (and she also hated gays). I just made a bad choice at a time when I was vulnerable.
Now that you mention it, I’m sure the Mennonites must have had their share, but they must have been deep in the closet, because I didn’t notice. I was so young then. I believe that most are born either gay or not. The other reason would be that someone was raised in such a liberal environment, that it didn’t matter which gender you fell in love with. I’ve noticed that with some, mostly women, it can be “fashionable”. There are such a range of Mennonite communities. Some are strictly Christian and it is their religion, but there are very liberal ones too. With them, their values are more a way of life than a religion. I was from a liberal community, but even in that, I wasn’t aware of any gays.
As for a “positive force” on this planet, I do my best and none of us are guiltless in that regard. As far as the planet goes, it would be better off without us entirely. We are like a cancerous disease on this planet, but at least we can use our wisdom to do our best not to be fatal. These days, it looks like we may be our own cure as well. With the direction we’re headed in, the planet should be cured of us soon. I just hope it survives. If we all died, would it really matter?
Posted by Stan on Nov 8, 2004 at 3:14 AM There is only one way to become gay: By birth. Nobody “becomes gay” later on due to environment. Medical Science as well as the world of Psychlogy agrees on this 100%. Take these indisputable facts: Identical twins (born from the same maternal egg) alway (100%!) share the same sexuality. They are either both heterosexual or both homosexual. There are no exceptions. Environment has ZERO influence on this medical fact. The other BIGGIE is the fact that homosexuality occurs in almost every animal species. Do animals “choose” to be gay or straight? You are or you aren’t. There is no guessing, and there is no environmental factor. This is not open to interpretation or opinion, it’s just so.
I didn’t CHOOSE to be gay. If I had had a choice (at least during my growing-up years) I would certainly have chosen to be heterosexual. The social pressure alone was so strong, who would choose to be targeted for persecution when they could CHOOSE otherwise? I have yet to hear from anyone who chose to be gay—you only hear the testimony of those who chose to be heterosexual. You can’t chose anything you have no control over. Should we choose our skin color too? How about out looks? Did anyone CHOOSE to be ugly, or did only attractive people make “the right choice”? It is no longer acceptable to plead ignorance on the “gay choice” issue. It’s been proven years ago, and anyone still insiting otherwise is stubborn or just plain uneducated/ignorant (by choice).
Many gays and lesbians marry, even have children, but they never are able to find true fulfillment. To have several heterosexual partners doesn’t change one’s sexuality. You either are gay or not. If you’re not, you won’t “turn gay” by having gay relationships, or vice versa. It’s a sad reality that the majority of gays and lesbians chose to soend a lifetime hidden from the society they perceive as hostile to the GLBT community. Without a society that constantly preached “heterosexuality is the only acceptable sexuality” it would be no issue for a gay person to feel comfortable about being gay. The fears of an ignorant majority will always assure a frightened minority, one that feels they are inferior and need to bow to the “norm” dictated by the majority.
Sexualtiy is not a factor for my association with many people of many backgrounds. As a congenial guy, who happens to be in love with another guy, I have no problems feeling comfortable in any social setting. Being non-religious I accept anyone else’s choice of worship, as I expect to be respected for my choice not to part of any organized religion. I personify tolerance, but I am also the first one to stand up against injustice (and I have). I’m not one to quietly remain seated as a gross wrong is being committed. When defending the rights of GLBT, I don’t do it by starting out with “I’m not gay, but…”. It doesn’t matter whether someone is gay or not. It doesn’t matter to me. In the context of discussing gay rights, however, I have much more respect for non-gays who don’t make that detail so prominently known. If it doesn’t matter, don’t mention it. If you’re proud to be gay, ok. You don’t need to be proud of NOT being gay. At least not in this context.
Posted by Michael on Nov 8, 2004 at 3:36 AM Whoa Michael, if you personify tolerance, you certainly seem mad about some things I’ve said. You’ve got some issues to deal with before you can claim tolerance. I did say that I believed if one is gay, they’re born that way, but you see it all in strict black and white and life’s not like that. You say, “This is not open to interpretation or opinion, it’s just so”. If you put faith in science, you have to accept that they analyze both polar opposites of the same study first and later find that there are varying degrees to just about everything. Things aren’t “just” one way or the other, everything has a spectrum. There ARE shades of grey. There ARE people born somewhere in the middle, I’ve known some and environment has a lot to do with their preferences. Environment is NOT “ZERO” for them. One that I know was raised in a very liberal environment and he has had loving relationships with both genders. He is in his mid-forties and still says it just doesn’t matter to him which gender it is, it’s the person he loves. If he had been raised differently, he may have stifled one urge for the other. I consider him a lucky man. I consider myself more unfortunate than he because I was born hetero and can’t find a woman to really relate to and I can’t be sexually attracted to the men I do relate to. You think you’ve got it rough? You’re only looking from your side of this issue.
Your earlier post said that you grew up in a very liberal country with little discrimination, if any (was that the US?), but now you speak of your persecution growing up and seem very angry and frustrated. I’m confused! There was nothing in my response to you that indicated I was “proud” to be hetero, I’ve never even thought that way. I mentioned it because it was a fact. If you’re interested in defending gay rights, you should appreciate someone like me. It does more to educate the “ignorant” if they hear it’s normal to be gay by someone who’s hetero as they are more than a gay person telling them that they’re wrong. Many homophobes accept that gay is normal deep down, but they wouldn’t confess it to their peers for fear of ridicule. They need straight peers to let them know they can express their tolerance and give up the prejudice pretence. This goes a long way.
I happen to live in the city that’s considered the lesbian capital of the world and I can assure you that there are women who choose women because it’s fashionable.
I’m giving you my opinions, because that’s MY reality. I don’t consider the term, “open-minded” to mean some type of head injury. For every person in this world, there is a different reality. Things aren’t just black and white.
Posted by Stan on Nov 8, 2004 at 6:16 AM -
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