The End is Near

I am very sorry to see you carry the advertisement on your site, not on the front page, but inside each article, claiming to offer a “Free Laptop”. Please look at the ad—It is, like many spam messages, a fake. It requires you to complete 6 sponsor promotions, like get a new cell phone or a new credit card. So the free laptop is not free at all. I am sad to see this type of ad in “In These Times”. May I please ask your reason for continuing to run these deceptive ads?

No one is really going to like this, Kurt, but the truth is often a bitter pill, in this case a cyanide capsule.

Hydrocarbon humankind is about to get swift kick in the drawers.  This will create the beginning of wars and land grabs (e.g. NOW) as the haves go up against the have-nots and in the end, as is always the case of the end, there will be barbarians at the gates.

What’s next?  This ain’t going to kill all of us.  Just most.

Alas,this experiment in inteligent life is about to fail.I hope its successful in some other part of the universe

i agree with you kurt, in fact i probably have much more facts conceding this FACT (about the fate of the human on this planet)as i’m in the industry to know about this, i am a fisheries biologist. but there are positive things going on despite what george does. there are many independent groups and agencies out there trying to make a difference. i’m asking you, kurt, what you do to make a difference, you write this pessimistic article about us just having to give up, as it’s already too late. perhaps you want to energize people. but how much of your millions do you drop to environmental groups. The nature conservancy? union of concerned scientists? nature resource defense council? wilderness society? you probably give a lot, i don’t know. but your article pushes me to think futility and apathy should be embraced.
email me, darling.

What do you mean by intelligent life?  We’ve plucked out all our feathers and dove out of the nest.  Flap, Flap thud.

Wait. It ain’t over. What Beat My Heart says it ain’t over.

There’s no difference? 3 things:

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#1 The Repugs voted for nukes

Senate RollVote Nuclear Weapons, summer 04

fastfact: Senate Republicans voted against eliminating funding for nukes

The 55-42 roll call by which the Senate voted to reject an amendment to the defense authorization bill that would have eliminated funding for research into “bunker buster” warheads.

On this vote, a “yes” vote was a vote to approve the amendment and a “no” vote was a vote to reject it.

Voting “yes” (to approve eliminating funding) were 41 Democrats and 1 Republican.

Voting “no” were 50 Republicans and 5 Democrats.

Democrats voting to eliminate nuke funding:

Akaka, Hawaii; Baucus, Mont.; Biden, Del.; Bingaman, N.M.; Boxer, Calif.; Breaux, La.; Byrd, W.Va.; Cantwell, Wash.; Carper, Del.; Clinton, N.Y.; Conrad, N.D.; Corzine, N.J.; Daschle, S.D.; Dayton, Minn.; Dodd, Conn.; Dorgan, N.D.; Durbin, Ill.; Edwards, N.C.; Feingold, Wis.; Feinstein, Calif.; Graham, Fla.; Harkin, Iowa; Inouye, Hawaii; Johnson, S.D.; Kennedy, Mass.; Kohl, Wis.; Landrieu, La.; Lautenberg, N.J.; Levin, Mich.; Lieberman, Conn.; Lincoln, Ark.; Mikulski, Md.; Murray, Wash.; Pryor, Ark.; Reed, R.I.; Reid, Nev.; Rockefeller, W.Va.; Sarbanes, Md.; Schumer, N.Y.; Stabenow, Mich.; Wyden, Ore. (Republicans: Chafee, R.I.)
Republicans voting to allow nuke funding:

Alexander, Tenn.; Allard, Colo.; Allen, Va.; Bennett, Utah; Bond, Mo.; Brownback, Kan.; Bunning, Ky.; Burns, Mont.; Campbell, Colo.; Chambliss, Ga.; Cochran, Miss.; Coleman, Minn.; Collins, Maine; Cornyn, Texas; Craig, Idaho; Crapo, Idaho; DeWine, Ohio; Dole, N.C.; Domenici, N.M.; Ensign, Nev.; Enzi, Wyo.; Fitzgerald, Ill.; Frist, Tenn.; Graham, S.C.; Grassley, Iowa; Gregg, N.H.; Hagel, Neb.; Hatch, Utah; Hutchison, Texas; Inhofe, Okla.; Kyl, Ariz.; Lott, Miss.; Lugar, Ind.; McCain, Ariz.; McConnell, Ky.; Murkowski, Alaska; Nickles, Okla.; Roberts, Kan.; Santorum, Pa.; Sessions, Ala.; Shelby, Ala.; Smith, Ore.; Snowe, Maine; Specter, Pa.; Stevens, Alaska; Sununu, N.H.; Talent, Mo.; Thomas, Wyo.; Voinovich, Ohio; Warner, Va. (Democrats: Bayh, Ind.; Hollings, S.C.; Miller, Ga.; Nelson, Fla.; Nelson, Neb.)

***
#2 Who served?  The hypocrisy is staggering.

Republicans
Dennis Hastert: did not serve.
Tom Delay: did not serve.
House Whip Roy Blunt: did not serve.
Bill Frist: did not serve.
Rudy Giuliani: did not serve.
George Pataki: did not serve.
Mitch McConnell: did not serve.
Rick Santorum: did not serve.
Trent Lott: did not serve.
Dick Cheney: did not serve. Had “other priorities.” Several deferments, the last for wife’s pregnancy.
John Ashcroft: did not serve. Seven deferments to teach business.
Jeb Bush: did not serve.
Karl Rove: did not serve.
Saxby Chambliss: did not serve. “Bad knee.” The man who attacked Max
Cleland’s patriotism.
Paul Wolfowitz: did not serve.
Vin Weber: did not serve.
Richard Perle: did not serve.
Douglas Feith: did not serve.
Eliot Abrams: did not serve.
Richard Shelby: did not serve.
Jon Kyl: did not serve.
Tim Hutchison: did not serve.
Christopher Cox: did not serve.
Newt Gingrich: did not serve.
Donald Rumsfeld: served in Navy (1954-57) as aviator and flight instructor.
George W. Bush: six-year Nat’l Guard commitment (in four years) with father’s help; questions about his service remain.
Ronald Reagan: made war propaganda movies.
Gerald Ford: Navy, WWII
Phil Gramm: did not serve.
John McCain: Silver Star, Bronze Star, Legion of ! Merit, Purple Heart and
Distinguished Flying Cross.
Bob Dole: Army officer WWII.
Chuck Hagel: two Purple Hearts and a Bronze Star, Vietnam.
Duke Cunningham: nominated for Medal of Honor, Navy Cross, SilverStars, AirMedals, Purple Hearts.
Jeff Sessions: Army Reserves, 1973-1986
JC Watts: did not serve.
Lindsey Graham: National Guard lawyer.
G.H.W. Bush: Pilot in WWII. Shot down by the Japanese.
Tom Ridge: Bronze Star for Valor in Vietnam.
Antonin Scalia: did not serve.
Clarence Thomas: did not serve

Pundits & Preachers
Sean Hannity: did not serve.
Rush Limbaugh: did not serve (4-F with a ‘pilonidal cyst.’)
Bill O’Reilly: did not serve.
Michael Savage: did not serve.
George Will: did not serve.
Chris Matthews: did not serve.
Paul Gigot: did not serve.
Bill Bennett: did not serve.
Pat Buchanan: did not serve.
Bill Kristol: did not serve.
Kenneth Starr: did not serve.
Michael Medved: did not serve
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#3 The Repugs are in the maw of the demiurge: Crazy. Selling Armageddon http://www.jungcircle.com/muse/Lahaye.html

***

and # 4 and all the rest to ... infinity:

What beats my heart? 

This wisdom that knows how to beat a heart: 

it beats all hearts. 

It’s here right now—birthing in every breath

saying

Let peace begin
with me

love deborah http://jungcircle.com/muse

The only good can from your intelligence is positive thinking, your reality about how bad things are has an equaly positive one, and that one needs to be addressed just as the negative reality.

If i missed a pass in the football game and blew the game, i would be upset and it would feel like my life was over, but there is still another game, another season, another year, i mean , the only way to feel good about completing a pass or catching the game winning pass is by dropping a few along the way, so we dropped a few passes in the years,

if rush limbaugh was a big of a fat ass back then as he is now, he should be embarassed to bitch about john kerry’s service in vietnam.  at least kerry went.  limbaugh just hung out and ate enough food to keep a third world country alive in one sitting.

I love Kurt Vonnegut’s books to death. Sad or not, while I was growing up they gave me something that I wasn’t able to find anywhere else, and I cherish him as an author to this day. With that being said, I have to slightly disagree with Mr. Vonnegut’s opinion expressed above. It is true that if I could choose the next president, it would be neither Kerry nor Bush. But I can’t agree that there is no difference between them. Bush has taken this country on a rampage of destruction, cheating, and pursuit of personal interests. (personal meaning the interests of himself, Cheney, and the richest 5% of the Americans). Kerry hasn’t done that yet. And there is a good reason to believe that he would not go as far as this administration has gone in the last four years. The common sense factor, evidently lacking in Bush, seems to have mild influence in John Kerry’s world. And that might be what we need right now. UNFORTUNATELY Mr. Vonnegut, this is not one of your books. In the real world politics is meant to be dirty, thus we can’t be looking for perfection. What we need right now is to stop the recklessness. Thus who will be the next president does matter.
About the fact that we are destroying our planet, and no one (who can) seems to be doing anything about it, I can’t agree more.

Well, Kurt Vonnegut - you may be right.  Then again, you may be wrong.  The last time I checked, there were no omniscient human beings.  Those who forget they don’t know everything seriously detract from our chances of survival, case in point with C-students from Yale.  However, I know I don’t know.  So I say, there may be hope for the junior prom yet.  As the mother of a sophomore and a clergy person in your loosely-affliated denomination, I am stubbornly hanging on to the saving grace of uncertainty.  What happened?  When did you let go and get stuck in the mire of terra firma beliefa?  I have admired you for so long, don’t fail me now, man!  With affection, Elaine

Dear Mr. Vonnegut, ever the Pollyanna? I love you Brother. Live and write for as long as you want. They may have killed us all. Hi Ho.

To say that there’s no difference is to admit that you’ve lost the capacity to grasp either differences or distinctions. Ideal candidates we don’t have, but of the two major party candidates, one has a decent record and the other is leading this country into some kind of abyss. It’s hard to believe that a writer of such power could write so ignorantly.

What about solar energy ? What about wind energy ? What about hydroenergy ? Why think everything depends on oil and the endless repetition of old mistakes ?
People still have the capacity to learn, people are able and allowed to simply drop out of the consumption craze and boycott idiocy, people aren’t necessarily fools, people outside and inside the USA survive on a steady diet of almost nothing, people can talk to dolphins and whales and birds to ask for help and information, please don’t give up hope. It will take some time before we clean up the mess we inherited, but nobody is forced to add to it.
Who needs a president anyway ?

“We will drill everywhere [except ANWAR] and we will drill like never before.” John Kerry to union officials 2004

Voting against the Kyoto Treaty last time around… John Kerry.

Official number 1 energy alternative in Democratic Party platform: nuclear energy.

Distinctions between Dems and Repubs abound, but none significant enough to change the direction downward that Mr. Vonnegut describes. If only we would listen to our wise elders (including Mr. Nader).

Boom, boom. Bye, bye.

No amount of Green optimism can turn back time, or alter the larger course of human nature.  We lit off our Ice-9 long ago, and the tipping point for the world has past.  If “Galapagos” had been non-fiction, it still would have been too late for the biosphere to recover.  So it goes…

Pleasant baloney, but baloney none the less. Cry in your beer for degradation of the earth, or stand up and fight for it.

there are great things to come

As we all know and occasionally, in our private moments, admit, cars have their good points.  For example, say an attractive person is standing on a lonely street corner, waiting for a ride that’s already thirty minutes late.  It’s raining.  It’s hailing.  Rats are present, big, toothy ones.  You can’t cruise up to the corner on your bicycle and say, “Can I give you a lift?” What would you be offering?  A seat on the handlebars, and the tires spritzing rainwater with each revolution.  That’s not going to get you anywhere with this attractive person.  Just because people are attractive doesn’t mean they’re stupid.

hmm, I thinks its about time we all join ELF.

Someone implied that voting for Nader would be the right thing to do in this mess. Well, I have a problem believing this. Voting for Nader would be the same as voting for Bush. Choosing to focus on Nader’s philosophy is nice. But it also means choosing to ignore the rest of the reality: Nader will not become the next president. Bush is a threat. Kerry is the only feasible way to remove this threat.
Casting a vote for the person who demonstrates the highest moral standards may seem to be the right thing to do – the right cause, the wrong effect. Morality is not only about interpreting and reacting honestly to what you see, it’s also choosing how much to see.

And btw, what is ELF?

We will not destrroy the planet. Mother Earth does not live from us, we live from her. She will say no, and that’s that.

The end is always near. It always has been, eh?

“Whether it is to be Utopia or Oblivion will be a touch-and-go relay race right up to the final moment.”—R. Buckminster Fuller

There’s more hydrogen in the known universe than anything else so it should be a no-brainer what the best energy source to tap into should be. It’s out there—“Oh, the humanity!” See also: Freeman Dyson’s idea of exploring the universe by means of farting hydrogen.

What concerns ME the most, is that the second most abundant element in the universe, Helium, happens to be rather scarce on our little planet and has the uncanny knack of escaping us every chance it gets. And yet, we can’t help using it to express what little joys we have and we would all like to talk like Donald Duck, if only for a brief moment.

The importance of the U.S. monopoly of this limited resource however, has not been lost on the military/ geopolitical strategist’s and accounts for the recent, quiet siphoning of the “Bush Dome” helium reserve—to whereabouts unknown.

So besides floating tons of synthetic coated fiber in the shape of familiar cartoon characters down Fifth Avenue every Thanksgiving Day, and so on, helium is essential for the making and maintaining of nuclear bombs. The hotter the hot, you see, the more we need precious helium.

What perfect irony. See also: Slim Pickens in (movie) “Dr. Strangelove.”

Where is Dr. Barnhouse when you need him?

Mr. Vonnegut’s writing has been very important to me since high school.  I am so happy to know that he holds many of the same positions that I do.  That said, I am not prepared to write off our existence just yet.

I believe that there is a way to fight the burning addiction and bring about changes that might just stave off our demise.

A smart campaign for divestiture of renewable energy from commodities based combustible energy corporations (oil & coal, mainly) could be waged by cluing the public in to the ethics of the modern day corporation.

If we could help the public understand that corporate ethics prohibit the corporation from acting on behalf of society unless that action will benefit the bottom line, then we would have a chance at fostering change.  While people know that corporations are not benevolent, most do not think that they are malevolent.  Given the realites of Hubbert’s peak, energy companies would be acting unethically if they were to do anything to promote renewable energy.  They are mandated by corporate ethics to mothball renewables so that they can experience the totality of revenue streams from fossil fuels as we move from a demand based market to a supply based market. 

This public is ripe for this kind of approach.  Multinational corporations are not very popular with Americans these days.  The true scope of their malfeasance has been hidden quite effectively by their fellow media corporations.  I believe that the public would be very upset if their true nature were to be exposed.

Renewable energy divestiture is a great way to expose corporate apathy for the well being of society.  It would pave the way for all kinds of actions against these artificial persons.

There is no reason why we should be giving in to these criminals.  Even if we have crossed our environmental Rubicon, that is no reason to allow these scumbags to reap record profits from our current and future well being.

roger leblanc : cite sources.

Hunny, Nukes is Cheney’s baby. And nukes just ain’t economical energy wise, except for Bechtel who made its profit upfront and ran. Nuke terrorism? The old plants are now leaching into the water.

As for Kerry, you’re just misinformed.

a quick google:

http://216.239.41.104/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&q=cache:http:// /www.startribune.com/stories/562/5011374.html

Last update: October 6, 2004 at 9:12 AM
Environment: Kerry’s record outshines even Gore’s
Robert Braile
October 3, 2004 BRAILE1003
When John Kerry is asked about his environmental record, he often refers to lessons his mother taught him about “responsibility to this world,” to a speech he gave in Massachusetts on the first Earth Day in 1970, to an acid rain commission he led as that state’s lieutenant governor, and to victories he claims as a U.S. senator on marquee issues from coral reefs to climate change.

It is a telling response. While Kerry has a glittering environmental record by most accounts, it reflects a distinct taste for Brussels over Boston—for the more glamorous international and national issues of the day, over the more provincial issues that might normally preoccupy a senator. Or, at least, a senator not eyeing the Oval Office.

Not that Kerry has neglected the Bay State in what he calls his “commitment of a lifetime.” Supporters say he has helped over the years in cleaning up Boston Harbor, the Massachusetts Military Reservation and the Housatonic River, showing political courage in the latter two cases, especially, by standing up to powerful players in the Pentagon and General Electric Corp., respectively.

Also, the national causes he has championed were as relevant in Massachusetts and New England as anywhere else. His efforts to reduce air and water pollution, toughen drinking-water standards, strengthen the federal Superfund program, reduce national forest logging and road construction, increase motor vehicle fuel economy, protect fisheries, conserve land, develop green transportation options and enhance renewable energy programs have served environmental interests from coast to coast.

From the start of his political career, Kerry has garnered his grandest headlines and most enthusiastic support from the national environmental community on high-profile issues that have about as much to do with Massachusetts as manatees. He has opposed opening a nuclear waste repository at Nevada’s Yucca Mountain and drilling for oil in Alaska’s Arctic National Wildlife Refuge. He has participated in international climate change talks everywhere from Rio to Kyoto to The Hague.

Even on international and national issues that have affected Massachusetts, Kerry has sought the larger stage. In 1987, three years into his first Senate term, he criticized the Reagan administration for its lack of leadership on acid rain and called for Senate hearings on global impacts of the problem. At the time, acid rain was as acute a concern domestically and abroad as climate change is now, although perhaps more a concern for Germany’s Black Forest than for the Berkshires.

Kerry has critics among environmental activists in Massachusetts, who see his support as driven by careerism and bravado more than purpose and passion. He could be counted on to vote the right way, they say, but has not delivered as much as some of his colleagues in the New England congressional delegations, among America’s greenest—nor as much as Kerry himself claims.

Nevertheless, his record has earned him very high marks from environmental groups. His lifetime League of Conservation Voters rating, based on Senate votes, is 92 out of 100—so high that the group endorsed him on Jan. 24, three days before the New Hampshire primary, the earliest in a campaign season it has endorsed any candidate in its 34-year history. (In 2000, it did not endorse former Vice President Al Gore until May 30—and Gore, one of the greenest politicians in recent memory, had a League rating of only 64.)

It remains to be seen whether such support will tip the scales for Kerry in what polls have long indicated is a very close race with President Bush. So far he has chosen—as Gore did four years ago—not to make his environmental commitment a highlight of his campaign.

Instead, he has cast his environmental platform in terms of how he would resolve local bread-and-butter issues, shying away from showcasing the positions that represent the greatest difference between himself and the president.

Strategically smart or not, that may be Kerry’s most telling position of all.

Robert Braile reported on the environment for the Boston Globe from 1987 to 2001. He is writing a book about race, culture and the environment in America.

“ We expect climate; what we get is weather.’’
Mark Twain

We can all thank Osama Bin Laden for guaranteeing Bush’s re-election.  He got the American people running scared again so we can count on every undecided voter voting for the man who leads by over twenty points on terrorism and national security (Bush).  Batten down the hatches for four more years.  I’m really thinking about moving to Canada.

We can all thank Osama Bin Laden for waking up half the people in this country that it’s our own actions that create terrorism. We turn a people on itself to do our bidding. Tricks and stealth, playing dirty. That’s how the west was won.

Hitler wasn’t armed overnight. He should have been stopped the moment he broke his treaty. Why was he allowed to arm? We thought he’d go after Stalin. The world made a big mistake looking the other way, just as we’ve made mistakes in arming Saddam. The old my enemy’s enemy is my friend: we have to let that go.

You don’t have to be part of it. Realize evey dollar you spend empowers, votes for something. 

To deal with despotic rulers, must we become despotic, become a nation ruled by the same? Terrorism wears a tribal mask; when we respond in kind with collective force—blunt and faceless—we only reinforce it. Individuals act, and individuals must be held accountable. If we don’t nurture justice through law and the avenues of peaceful solutions, if we simply resort to the use of our unimaginably superior arms, what statement are we making to the world? What protocol do we establish? What will we be left to live with? Fear and suspicion have been exploited to sell war. Questions are not asked or answered. The obvious economic benefits to private oil’s control of the Iraqi reserves are never discussed - indeed, they are obfuscated, even denied. In whose service is our military in this war? Our intelligence: who does it answer to? If we can’t readily answer these questions, we no longer function as a Democracy. What then have we become?

Deborah, thank you. I couldn’t have said it better.

I’m just stunned that so many people don’t see that Bush IS the number one factor that breeds terrorism these days…

we are in the midst of the extreme rush toward a prophesied end. I think that the fools that are in charge or striving for charge are the epitome of life immitating art immitating life and have forgotten the rules of real life mother earth is laid naked with almost nothing to give her children for all of our sophisticated wit and charm we have all striven to undermine the next individual instead of comming together i say vote bush and make sure that asshcroft is held in place and that some of the more moderate of the republican party get a choice get more fierce or leave and that patriot act II and even III get passed and then the conguest for the inevitable end purge in the fire of the end of the world we are close to the fire of the sun already the true FIREY end let us see jfkerry or curiose george w stop this would be almost like letting the child put his fork into the light socket ZAP! ahhh we see now dont we ? dont even have to be in the same room with them now do we lesson learned. if you vote bush and sweet mother earth catches fire early then you can peacefuly watch the cleansing heat consume us and say yup i did that and smile into the ethereal.

Kurt,

I rest assured every night that this debacle with sentience will soon be behind us.  As foretold in your prophetic “Galapagos,” we will soon evolve into finned seal-like creatures with smaller cerebrums.  Too bad I won’t be here to see it!

Actually, there’s another way this could all turn out.
Look at the fossil record. Over 500 million years, consistently, brains have been getting bigger. Smarter and smarter creatures jockey for dominance. Very, very soon we may make something smarter than we are and it will take over. Then what? Will it kill us off as roaches? Will we, in Perry Farrel’s words, “Make great pets”? Will we be a part of something as far beyond us as we are beyond our own liver cells?

Sir Martin Rees says humans have no better than a 50% chance of surviving this century.

Mathematical proofs I find incomprehensible seem to show that the average person is statistically likely to be one of the very last generation.

Other mathematical proofs seem to show that, since the number of possible ‘simulated virtual universes’ is so great, we are almost certainly in one of those. The Matrix may be real (while we, its figments, only think we are!) And there’s not necessarily any ‘outside’. Escaping this sort of Matrix would be like escaping your own skin, or like a drawing escaping the blackboard. Amusing to think on, but neither possible nor desirable in practice.

Max Tegmark, in a Scientific American article of Spring 2003 demonstrates that there are infinitely many identical Earths with copies of us (if you could go far enough, fast enough, in the right direction, you could meet yourself). You know how the patterns repeat in wallpaper, so that you see the same flower about two feet lower on the wall? So with you, forty billion light years down the pike.

Sentience isn’t something you either have or have not. It’s more like salt in soup. Some have almost none. Some have a good bit. Some have so much that there’s just too damn much salt. I think a bonobo, fucking its friends three hours a day in a warm forest, has a very enviable quantity of sentience. Until the humans come looking for bushmeat.

I’ve said it before, and I gotta say it again: Morality depends on what you think is true. On what you think is real. On what you think is important.
If you think Jesus is comin’ on back and this physical world is disposable, that gives you one morality, internally consistent. Dubya may blow us all up, but so what? He’s shepherding us through the Tribulation. He is Good.
If you think the material world is what matters, then you think Dubya and anybody else who might get us all physically killed is Evil. In fact, Ultimately Evil in a way Charlie Manson could only dream of being.
If you believe in Nietzche’s Eternal Return (which, for Tegmarkian reasons, may not be all that silly!) then you might just fall into the Nazi camp and figure that since there will always be sheep and there will always be wolves, it’s better to be a wolf. You are, of course, Beyond Good and Evil. Others will call you Evil but you don’t care because you are gassing them for their gold fillings to pay for more Pzkfw 5 battletanks.
If you believe as I do, you understand that ‘there are no answers, only choices’ (as Gibarian says to Kris Kelvin in Solaris) and that if you have a moral responsibility it is to Try to Minimize the Negative Consequences of Your Actions.

But you’ll shoot yourself in the foot anyway. We all do. Pobody’s nerfect. What, you think Jesus Christ was *planning* to inflict George Bush on us all? No thanks, I’m pretty sure the old Nazarene preacher would rather be considered fallible than be held responsible for consequences that far from his intent.

It’s an honor even to write to you, dear maestro. I grew up in Russia reading your books. Loving them and having them on my desk for years.
I just wish the 46-7-9 whatever % of Americans who support Bush could live in USSR for 4 weeks. They would have a better picture about how a Polit-buro type givernment is rulling over here. Lies, deception, propaganda, fear and hate are becoming a norm in daily politics. It is so much like in USSR. It frightens me. Back in those days when I was living in USSR, I would have never imagined that FOX NEWS type propaganda garbage could exist in this “bastion of liberty and freedom”. As we thought of it. Now not only it does exist. It’s popular.
Me too I don’t see many differences in between the two millionaires. Yes, Kerry seems less of a reactionary - BUT he promises to continue the war. A war that he declares is wrong (and we all agree)he says he’ll fight better. He doesn’t say he’ll bring our troops back home. Restore peace first of all here. Unite the country and re-define what is to be AMERICAN again.
I hope you keep your voice alive. We need your wisdom. And your pessimism is more optimistic to me than the candidates rhetoric.

Why is Pat Buchanan not serving hypocrisy. Have you not read his articles on antiwar.com? He has been an advocate of non-intervention for years. More so than the war mongering democrats such as Madeline Allbrigt of “we think it’s worth it” fame.

Some of us either caught fire or felt the heat from a stoked fire because of this message from Mr. Vonnegut.  Was this his intent?  I’m not buying the doomsday stuff either.  That is, unless too many of us give up.

Senator John Kerry must be elected; to do otherwise will mean disaster and an enormous battle must then ensue to gain control of our country once again.  But can we get past the idea that the President of the United States is the most powerful person in the world?  Senator Kerry will be a great leader, but he will be leading an energized, fully awakened populace that has had its great gift of the Land of the Free yanked out from under it.  Maybe, because of this last four-year debacle, American citizens have once and for all learned what can come of considering Democracy a spectator sport or not paying any attention whatsoever.

It is now time to bring out the big guns of creativity. And Americans have to learn about intense pressure and how to apply it to control our government.  No more barely perceptible whimpers; no more half-hearted attempts to stop oppression.  It has to be all-out high intensity pressure.  We can’t simply say we want alternative fuel technology research accelerated; we have to mount intensive campaigns to ensure that it is happening and monitor it closely.  We can’t just say that we want special attention to the creation of great numbers of small business to rebuild manufacturing and the middle class; we have to create groups or join groups in existence and apply intense pressure to making certain plans are implemented.  Whatever it is that we need done must be done, and it must be done by us with the help of our elected representatives, not left to our representatives while we watch “reality” shows.

Let’s put on the fightin’ duds and get with it.  We can do this thing.

At least Mr Kerry and Mr Edwards acknowledge there are peons like us who need to be recognized and supported in order for “them” to survive with their agenda.

I live near the Greenbrier Hotel in West Virginia, where the gates have been closed to “outsiders” due to “security threats” and the local folks resent this.

Until the us and them society can acknowledge that there can not be a have and have not society in this country without incredible resentment, we can not even begin to understand the resentment other countries and movements have against us as a country.

Kurt speaks right to the heart of it. Not a message that people want to here. The Titanic has gone over the falls. The only thing left to do is try to stay civilized as our civilization does the crash and burn thing. www.peakoil.org is a souce to read all about it.

I don’t believe the answer to the energy crisis is not seeking what could prove to be unviable alternatives.  We can’t expect to live on with what we have, I guess, but that doesn’t mean rushing to change is the best course for changing what we’re not yet sure isn’t broken.

Kurt, don’t you think we humans could garden the earth into Eden if we really wanted to?  I know you say it’s too late and most of the time I’m inclined to agree with you...but I can’t get away from the gut feeling that we humans are capable of healing the harm we’ve done… and more.

I tried to stay out of it but got a newsletter from ITT with your name and a blurb about the commentary you have graced us with above...and so was drawn into one of the mind games you’ve so often provoked in me throughout my life.

Nobody knows much but everybody thinks more than they know how to speak their thoughts.

When dealing with words one must make allowances for a very limited means of communication.  Words may stir the emotions and traumatize the psyche but that is only on an intellectual level.

One need not have read what you so Vonnegutly wrote to understand Dr. Johnson’s essay about, “Last Things”.  All life and each individual as a microcosmic reflection of the cosmological bears witness to the ineluctable nature of having to end so that something else might begin.

What irks most about our self-destruction is that we were so unhappy, on the whole, in having laid waste to this wondrous planet.  The haves of the world could have at least had the good humor and sprortsmanship to let everyone in on the fun.  Instead billions of suffering human being had to generationally exist as mere chattel for a relatively few monomaniacs who form a long historical chain that might culminate in - not a total extinction but into an age so bleak and unfit for those accustomed to having retinues and domestic staffs that the only people able to survive it will be, as Jesus Christ matter of factly stated: the meek. 

For only those who even now can subsist on the most rudimentary foodstuffs and are able to bear the worst climates and disasters will be fit enough to inherit the desolate, ages-long coming era of utter barbarism and grain-unyeilding soil.

No one seems to realize that what you’ve said here is nothing new...what pains people is that it had to begin while they were still accountable for being a major part of the problem. 

And let it be further be known that only they who have the stomach to become anthropophogous will at least have a slight chance of survival.  Remember the Donner Party!

Pessimism, schmessimism...words can’t help us at a time like this, (not that they ever could), so why all the ostensibly optimistic tripe from folks who know darn well, if even in the most recondite corner of their souls, that symbols, labels, name-calling, and other forms of rhetorical football won’t stop the next vehicle purchaser from opting for an eighteen wheeler, if he could drive it instead of one of those Smart Cars?

I agree with the reverend Mr. Vonnegut when he approaches us via the internet armed with his stiletto word processor holding up a verbal mirror which reflects not who we think we’d like to be known as...but what we are.  For this is most salubrious should we ever come to understand that we come from a long tradition of nature despising and raping automatons whose hatred and inexorable destruction of that which gives us life must be carried to it’s bitter conclusion.  For only in this way will we have finally found the means to personify the cosmological Oedipussies that we’d always preteded not to be.

“Pessimism, schmessimism...words can’t help us at a time like this . . .”

Wrong.  Words are what we need most right now.  Too few people listening to words of wisdom is what got us to this point.  And then there is the problem of heeding those words of wisdom, but then that is when more words of wisdom should be expended as driving forces.

This election and the deceit and debauchery of this administration have awakened the masses in America and around the world.  A revolution is coming.  It may be too late halt the destruction of our home, even if we manage maximum effort, or we may win and repair it and learn to properly maintain it.  But one thing is certain:  To do nothing guarantees failure. 

You have great words, but I would have preferred that you suggest a few ways for us to spend what’s left of our miserable existence as you so eloquently suggested it will be.  Do you have any words of wisdom for those of us who intend to continue the fight to stop the onslaught and to mobilize the masses to an even greater extent?  Or do you care what we do?  Do you pity us for what you consider our puny attempts to turn the tide?

I’ve read the peak oil story; this stuff was predicted twenty years ago and not enough people paid attention.  All of our troubles come from lack of effort.  In the idiotic words of this President “it’s hard” to do things right.  Yep.  It’s our fault that it has all come down to this.  And we can fix it if enough people are willing.  You possess greater knowledge than I do; I am but a poorly educated layman eking out an existence.  You possess courage, so use it.  You possess knowledge, so use it.  Lead, follow, or get out of the way, as some famous person said.

While I may agree on some level with the views of Mr. Vonnegut, and understand his premise. I cannot and will not accept it.

I can’t. Giving up is too easy.

If the goliaths of industry and special interest and societal destruction have indeed won, so be it.

But I will not accept their victory. Fighting the good fight IS an end unto itself.

Of course Kurt is right. Oil is a depletable source, I don’t get how anyone can actually imagine he can debate that point… /boggle

That’s not the entirety of the problem though. How about: As we pump out more carbon dioxide we destroy the forests that removes it from the air - brilliant.

I’m pretty sure both Kerry and Bush will continue clearing the path to a terminal future. They are, like the general american psyche, more or less demented (Kerry maybe slightly less so).

So, death to everyone and long live the world.

The issue is that people know about genocide for oil and <YOUR PRODUCT HERE!> and they just keep buying SUV’s. Bigger, faster, shinier SUV’s. After all, they want their children safe. They pass me on the freeway and I see a look in their eye: they’re someone on a commercial, on the tube. They’re something they’ve been sold, something they’ve bought.

My daughter, the ancient historian, is going into her apartment yesterday, and the Egyptian lady down the hall says “we must have tea together this week.” My daughter answers automatically “Insha’Allah,” something our Palestinian friend Rasa and our Jewish scholar friends all say. The lady smiles. “You know our ways!”

Smaller, face to face, we might remember our soul. Can you see me through this screen? I won’t be a gutless wonder if you won’t.

We can do this. Just start now.

x’s
deborah

First I want to say Kurt, You are the man.  Thanks for all the good times we’ve had together and I’m following your footsteps brother, though I doubt I’ll ever fill your shoes.
Deborah I think you have the idea.  Im attending University of Houston at the moment and I must say, Advertisements are the law.  How people respond to eachother, they way they think about and whether or not they accept things that they see are all measured in relation to what TV told them.  I’m pretty self absorbed, but vanity is out to get us guys and it’s doing a GREAT job!
I love Merkuh (America) and all it stands for, but since it no longer reflects that, i believe it will fall.  How many other empires have been as great and lasted as long as the USA?  Empires fall, how can one say at the intrusion of these attrocities that America will never fall?  Unfortunatly I can’t think of anyway of saving this ship, so im gonna borrow a gross amount of money from Visa so I can have enough money to finish school and get my wisdom teeth taken out at the same time.  I love all u guys and when I see you on the otherside don’t hesitate to expect hospitality.  “Hey, it’s all just for shits and giggles anyway right?” - my brother.

“Empires fall, how can one say at the intrusion of these attrocities that America will never fall?”

Empires should fall, and the Bush/Cheney empire will fall, sooner rather than later.  But it won’t fall without America’s citizens pulling together and making it happen.  I may see you on the other side; I’ll be one of the many bloodied from battle in bringing down the empire.

i agree with mr. kurt v., yet feel that riding my bicycle to work (14miles r.t.), to the store and small errands is essential to changing our oil based economy. i also drive a ‘98 vw jetta on biodiesel.i shop adamantly for local goods.i live simply and healthy. i’ve never owned a t.v. cars, trucks and tractors where i work run on vegetable oil. my workplace is also organic and biodiverse. although i can agree with mr. kurt v’s dire assessment, i can try to to be a cause for change. c’mon let’s help each other live another way.

“… the many bloodied from battle bringing down the empire.” Actually, happens there’s plenty Tim McVeighs who fancy themselves in that line of work.

Story. When I bought the land I live on, I saw on the deed an old road that ran through these parts: the Carolina Road, a bunch of dashes on the map. I was intrigued. I study up on this Carolina Road. I find it used to be, in Washington and Jefferson’s time, the main drag from Philly to Atlanta. The Great Wagon Road, it brought families southward through the New Jerusalem. I walk it mornings, the Carolina Road, the few places where it’s restored here. I find 4 leaf clovers on. I imagine bluebirds singing and young couples full of hope riding down it, and also mothers burying their lost babies and then bravely (somehow) climbing back on the wagon, in the tradition of the true brave souls who went on in sorrow and actually brought us all here—who didn’t give up, even when it was hard beyond bearing. I also imagine some beautiful heiress escaping with some handsome rake, raging passionate down the Carolina Road, inn to inn. Real romantic stuff.

And then I find more. Another tale this road tells. Before it was the Carolina Road, it was the Great Warrior Trail. The Indians followed it with the seasons, an old Buffalo route. For some 8 - maybe 10 thousand years small tribes lived along it, leaving behind arrowheads and visions you can walk into. But why the Warrior Trail? Why that named? Because—I find—it was the way the Iroquois came when they were pushed off their lands up North. They came to dispatch the local tribes here with the guns they got from my relatives who’d come from England. And that’s always the way it always works, the tale this road tells.  It tells it without oil and Enron and Cheney, though that’s the place it always ends up: the powerful never does the dirty work. Instead it sets a native people against itself and lets them do it for him. 

Extrapolate: Iraq. Extrapolate across oceans, and here in your own back yard. Remember the Tim McVeighs? The can get to be warriors too. Until they’re the expendables.

So please. No more talk about the many bloodied from battle bringing down the empire, ok? You just play into their hands.

But you might read something the real revolution:

Memories of Chile in the Midst of an American Presidential Campaign
by Ariel Dorfman
http://www.tomdispatch.com/index.mhtml?emx=x&pid=1939

x’s
deborah
http://jungcircle.com/muse

“No more talk about the many bloodied from battle bringing down the empire, ok? You just play into their hands.”

I failed to indicate the metaphorical in my choice of words.  My apologies.  Such behavior is not in my character.  I came back from the SE Asia debacle with an anti-killing-anything-that-wasn’t-trying-to-kill-me attitude.

The battle I’ll be waging, along with tens of millions of like-minded compatriots, will be in the war of words and nonviolent actions that will correct our course.

TomDispatch is part of my regular reading; always great stuff.

I, too, dream of how things can be and were, but more so lately I dream of how to bring about these pleasant times.  I’m encouraged more than ever that we can achieve a degree of peace and tranquility and beneficial stewardship of the earth.  Because of doing my small part by my involvement in this “bloody fight” to help elect Sens. Kerry and Edwards, I’ve come into contact with groups around the globe.  In these many contacts and from the grand web of additional contacts that such endeavors produce, as I’m sure everyone has discovered, I see that the rest of the world is far ahead of us in environmental and social-change activism.  Those numbers of involved citizens combined with the tens of millions of Americans who can be mobilized can bring about the desired results.

These things take the coordinated efforts of the masses.  In this tiny thread of discussion in the universe of such discussions, we are finding out who is willing to fight.  We still await the generals with the wisdom to put it all together and make it happen.

You think Yale is bad, try fighting conservative ideology at Texas A&M;(mentioned briefly in Player Piano) where Christian kids sign up for 19th Century philosophy and spend all day arguing with Nietzsche (as if they’ve really contemplated anything)and completely missing the point on Kierkegaard (yea, he proves what Faith is but in doing so illustrates that nobody is capable of it).  And thank you for your postcard Mr. Vonnegut, it is very helpful for my paper.

You think Yale is bad, try fighting conservative ideology at Texas A&M;(named the most conservative university in the nation over BYU!).  A school where Christian kids argue with Nietzshce in 19th Century Philosophy and praise Kierkegaard without realizing what they call faith is not Faith to Kierkegaard.  It’s somewhat amusing. Thank you for the postcard Mr. Vonnegut, it will be helpful for my paper.

Crossing the Rubicon: The Decline of the American Empire at the End of the Age of Oil
by Michael C. Ruppert

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/store/index.shtml

This is a detective story that gets to the innermost core of the 9/11 attacks. It places 9/11 at the center of a desperate new America, created by specific, named individuals in preparation for Peak Oil: an economic crisis like nothing the world has ever seen.

The attacks of September 11th, 2001 were accomplished through an amazing orchestration of logistics and personnel. Crossing the Rubicon discovers and identifies the key suspects and persons of interest - finding some of them in the highest echelons of American government - by showing how they acted in concert to guarantee that the attacks occurred and produced the desired result.

ISBN #0-86571-540-8
(approx 675 pages with illustrations)
New Society Publishers, Gabriola Island, British Columbia, Canada)
$15.99 (US & Canada)

After two and a half years of research and writing, Ruppert said:

“In my new book I will be making several key points:

1. I will name Vice President Richard Cheney as the prime suspect in the mass murders of 9/11 and will establish that, not only was he a planner in the attacks, but also that on the day of the attacks he was running a completely separate Command, Control and Communications system which was superceding any orders being issued by the FAA, the Pentagon, or the White House Situation Room;

2. I will establish conclusively that in May of 2001, by presidential order, Richard Cheney was put in direct command and control of all wargame and field exercise training and scheduling through several agencies, especially FEMA. This also extended to all of the conflicting and overlapping NORAD drills—some involving hijack simulations—taking place on that day.

3. I will also demonstrate that the TRIPOD II exercise being set up on Sept. 10th in Manhattan was directly connected to Cheney’s role in the above.

4. I will also prove conclusively that a number of public officials, at the national and New York City levels, including then-Mayor Rudolph Giuliani, were aware that flight 175 was en route to lower Manhattan for 20 minutes and did nothing to order the evacuation of, or warn the occupants of the South Tower. One military officer was forced to leave his post in the middle of the attacks and place a private call to his brother - who worked at the WTC - warning him to get out. That was because no other part of the system was taking action.

5. I will also show that the Israeli and British governments acted as partners with the highest levels of the American government to help in the preparation and, very possibly, the actual execution of the attacks.”

“There is more reason to be afraid of not facing the evidence in this book than of facing what is in it.”

Yes.  All of our resources will be gone.  We are doomed to the system we have created.  Isn’t it beautiful?  Everything must be uprooted - this is the nature of being human...regardless of your beliefs.  Death is inevitable; the magnificent fossil fuels that culminated over millions of years are being sucked and scavenged like a whore.  But, then again, we are insignificant.  To think that we are the ones to control the destiny of this planet is arrogance at worst.  What about the ice age - the dinosaurs?  This planet is a self-regulating super-organism...in a certain sense.  We are nothing, and history will repeat itself.  Let us all hope that a prodigious asteroid strikes us in the heart.  Only then will we be saved…

oh yeah -

“” The United States ranks 139th in average voter turnout among the 172 nations that have held competitive elections since 1945. Vote if you feel there is a candidate worth your vote.

Tinymixtapes.com “

i am terribly sorry to post again, but my thoughts are rather scattered. 

my question is:
does anyone think that a revolutionary figure can come to light again? i am thinking particularly about Marx and Darwin; to me Darwin was quite the underground revolutionary hehehe - no pun intended.

Also:
What about prophets?

choppy

>>my question is:
does anyone think that a revolutionary figure can come to light again? i am
thinking particularly about Marx and Darwin; to me Darwin was quite the
underground revolutionary hehehe - no pun intended.

>>Also:
What about prophets? >>

YOU have to be your own revolutionary and prophet. Just start now.

imho: where we’ve gone wrong is in thinking we are masters of Nature rather than part of it, forgetting that symbiosis is the principle of what endures. All that theory simplified in a Beautiful Mind is much more a true and better model than the social Darwinism that has hung us over the last two centuries.

And whatever happens, hey, we’ll get over it. Because all the little tin gods who are now making such misery—all the blowhard liars of FOX news and hate radio—all the baseball caps in pick-up trucks and monster SUV’s—they will all simply dry up and blow away like everything else. They can dismantle the Federal government, Constitution, Bill of Rights, write books, make wars and leftbehinder movies, project Jesus in the sky—but that’s all it will be: their own projection.

We come out of death, we go back into death. Can’t be so bad.

I think above all that I thank the gods that children rebel. Enough of them will always tend to sweep the hands off their shoulders, and some will manage to do some good. But lastly, I am in accord with the below… and I leave it with you today with a great joy that all of you have lived in the world. I salute the light in you and know it illuminates others in this darkness.

With heart, Deborah

Carl Jung wrote a letter on 9/14/1960, nine months before his death. There’s little doubt he was speaking to us all.

Excerpt:

[...] my main tenet contains nothing more than: Follow that will and that way which experience confirms to be your own, i.e., the true expression of your individuality. [...] None believes in the blossoming and unfolding of the individual as the experimental, doubtful, and bewildering work of the living God, to whom we have to lend our eyes and ears and our discriminating mind, to which end they have been incubated upon for millions of years and brought to light since about 6,000 years ago, viz. at the moment when the historical continuity of consciousness became visible through the invention of script.

We are sorely in need of a Truth or a self-understanding similar to that of Ancient Egypt, which I have found still living with the Taos Pueblos. Their chief of ceremonies old Ochwiay Biano (Mountain Lake) said to me : ‘We are the people who live on the roof of the world, we are the sons of the Sun, who is our father. We help him daily to rise and to cross the sky. We do not do this for ourselves, but for the Americas also. Therefore they should not interfere with our religion. But if they continue to do so (by missionaries) and hinder us, then they will see in ten years the sun will rise no more.’ He correctly assumes that their day, their light, their consciousness and their meaning will die, when destroyed through the narrow-mindedness of American Rationalism, and the same will happen to the whole world, when subjected to such treatment. That is the reason I tried to find the best truth and the clearest light I could attain to, and since I have reached my highest point and can’t transcend any more, I am guarding my light and my treasure, convinced that nobody would gain and I myself would be badly, even hopelessly injured, if I should lose it. **It is the most precious not only to me, but above all to the darkness of the creator, who needs man to illuminate his creation. If God had foreseen his world, it would be a mere senseless machine and Man’s existence a useless freak. My intellect can envisage the latter possibility, but the whole of my being says ‘No’ to it...**

first of all, thanks for addressing my pontif’. 

Where do we start prophesizing/revolutionizing?  Is Nader the first step?

Darwin did not apply his theory of evolution to social situations as far as I know.  This was left to the “thinkers”, and the wanderers.  Just look into his eyes...I think his ethics reign supreme, and that is why I chose to claim him a revolutionary figure - because his thoughts produced a plethora of intellectual smish-smash.  Peace one.

Chopster

YAY!!!  Hurray for you, Mr. Vonnegut!  Your words have helped unite all of us lesser Vonnegut-clones.  mwahahahahah, we’re all the same. mwahahahah. 

One trait that many of us share, though i doubt Mr. Vonnegut is this arrogant, is our false sense of superiority.  One of us vonnegutees posted about how he/she (didn’t bother looking at the name) observes all the cow-eyes in the SUV driving masses of America.  It’s true, i do it too.  I also believe that most of humanity is completely ignorant, and can only see 2 feet in front of itself. but you know what always makes me chuckle?  Those same SUV people look at me in my fucked up car, lost in human critique, and think to themselves, “That guy just cares about buying the new stuff and eating the most cancer-inducing burgers.”

Actually, i’m not sure if the SUV people think that, they do drive SUV’s after all, but it seems the majority of us intellectual wannabees are in competition with each other.  We talk with each other, not to share our thoughts, but to prove one of us is more cynical than the other. 

I can’t sleep on a regular basis, so when i’m bored i’ll go wandering around campus around 3 a.m.  Everytime i do, i see other people wandering around with me, the walking undead of a fabricated culture.  And we all glance at each other and think the same thing: “they’re all apathetic, they have no idea how easily they could make a difference if they just united.”

then we keep wandering around, pissed off cuz we can’t find like-minded individuals.

and now for the required influence-marker:

HI-HO!!!

(oh, and that fucked up car i drive?… a 92’ Isuzu SUV with 150k)

at the time of atlantis folarian republican arab detonating butchers blew up their own planet of folaria which explains asteroids in solar system invaded earth now here to anihilate all of g-d’s people on g-d’s planet earth at armageddon all 1 billion or so or more of these former satanic detonators from hell will return to hell on last day and g-d’s people go to new heaven and earth your hero at armageddon giuliani the anti-christ your ruler will shortly make sure along with usa government and military that our planet earth is obliterated very soon at end of time this is what most of you satanic morons of folaria will get for your stupidity and disrespectfulness as you had your chance on g-d’s beautiful earth and you destroyed it

What about solar energy ? What about wind energy? What about hydroenergy?

Show me the solar powered solar panel factor.

Show me the the wind generator factory powered by wind.

Show me the hydro electric damn built using hydroelectric power.

Show me the closed loop that doesn’t have oil energy in it.

You in the 92’ Isuzu SUV with 150k:

Nope. Not interested in being in your intellectual wanna-be / lesser Vonnegut-clone world, thank you. Never crossed my mind, what people think about me. (And of course, you came to mock. Admit it.) The comment about the SUV’s was about the chance for individuality, self-development, diversity, and liberty of the heart, and they way it’s been lost to the big sell. Consciousness fades as we become these machines we serve. We sink back into the collective. And I mourn, but not in some highfalutin’ self superior way. I mourn for our children. I mourn for us all. I even mourn for the creator and its darkness.

It ain’t about me, hunny.

Know thyself. It wasn’t so highfalutin’, those words carved in stone in Delphi. More of a warning to keep to your place. The beautiful and the good were always the rich. And it’s always been the philosopher’s looking back and forward that changed the meaning, and thus, the possibilities.

So. Your brief moment, and mine, will be what we can make of it.

Namaste,
Deborah

In the immortal words of David Brower,Archdruid of the Enviro-movement..."There is no business to be done on a dead planet”. I too feel pessimistic about our fate on Earth. However, Senator Kerry has had a progressive outlook on protecting our natural resources and on energy alternatives for many years. WE NEED HIS OUTLOOK AND PERSPECTIVE IF WE ARE TO SUCCEED IN THE FUTURE.

Kurt is right regarding our resources, but to more or less claim that there is no difference between the two candidates is to say the least shocking, and I can’t help wonder if has been paying any attention.
The evidence for entropy is omnipresent, and the depletion of our energy resources is not anything we haven’t been aware of, but I hardly believe it to be the death knell that Kurt and many of the posters articulate. We have the capacity to become less dependent on oil, and explore resources such as hydrogen and others, but as long as money interests override the interests for the greater good we will subjugate peoples and exploit the environment to the benefit of those corporations that manipulate the political system to suit their greedy goals and contiune to war and pillage for the benefit of the few at the expense of the many. We survive or fail on the change of the corporate/political paridigm. We can continue doing things the way we do now or chnage it.
Bush and Cheney and the cronyism that they represent needs to go the way of the dinosaur, they are the worst tandem of leaders in our 228 year history; changing the leadership in Washington is the beginning to changing our future, not only as a domocracy but as a species living within the bounds of nature.
Be hopeful.

“We survive or fail on the change of the corporate/political paridigm. We can continue doing things the way we do now or chnage it.”

If we are so unfortunate as to have to contend with 4 more years of Bush/Cheney, all strategies will have to be modified and new tactics developed.  Do you have confidence that we can overcome the corporate oligarchy?  If so, do you think it will come to protest marches, passive resistance, widespread and significant boycotts, etc., to pull it off?  Do you believe that we have enough media representation to bring the messages to the masses to such an extent that it engages the tens of millions of citizens who will be needed to bring about change?

I have a long list of questions.  Is this white space just as good as any to discuss such issues?

Media Coverage is a serious issue.  In my protest experiences Ten Million never made it on the news.  All Ten Million of us somehow were only represented on Fox by only a hundred thousand, and even then somehow the hundred pro war guys made as much or more air time than we did..... uh, wtf?

“Media Coverage is a serious issue.”

Without massive media blitzes it will be tough to engage the tens of millions.  In other forums with other groups, there is increasing discussion of a network to counter Fox.  Of course one isn’t enough, but it would be a grand start.  Has anyone in this thread participated in any such discussions?  Is there any concrete planning going on to anyone’s knowledge?

I have no proof of this, maybe others have seen statistics to bear this out, but it seems to me that the largest driving force in mobilizing the masses has been the online environment.  Many websites have cropped up that contain long lists of links from which are found more long lists of links, etc.  I asked in a couple of forums for opinions on whether it would be wise to create a clearing house for discussions, debates, plans, strategy, tactics, decisions, voting, formal write-ups, e-mail and postal mail campaigns, elected representative contact and follow up responsibility, on and on ad infinitum? Will some IT professional develop a Save America Central or some such website to be coordinated with other groups? How will we find the generals and other front-line officers to coordinate the energies of the masses?

Today, is a good day to die. “Geronimo!”

All things being equal though (as I interpret Kurt’s latest requiescat in pace), it’s all over but for the ghost dance. Break out the booze.

What better irony might we expect then, than the son of the [url="http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/8425/BONES.HTM#Geronimo"
]“Bonesman”[/url] be riding rough-shod, neck and neck, against the “human beings” in this, the final hours of our last stand.

Chief Dan George: “The human beings, my son—they believe everything is alive, not only man and animals, but also water, earth, stone, and also the things from them. That is the way things are… But the white man—they believe everything is dead—stone, earth, animals, and people, even their own people. If things keep trying to live, white man will rub them out… That is the difference.”

Little Big Man: “But why do you want to die, Grandfather?”

Chief Dan George: “Because there is no other way to deal with the white man, my son. Whatever else you can say about them, it must be admitted… you cannot get rid of them… There is an endless supply of white men, but there always has been a limited number of human beings… We won today… We won’t win tomorrow.”

We may have to go to the streets and protest like in the 60’s if we want the powers that be to pay any attention all, that of course includes the media which has by and large failed miserably.
If we want a clean enviornment we must demand it, if we a living wage, we must demand it, if we want our government to be really representative we must demand it, we must protest the status quo
that assumes we will fall to our knees and praise the power seekers and holders. We the people hold the power. We the people can change the system if we unite toward that aim!

“We the people can change the system if we unite toward that aim!”

Absolutely.  It’s the only way it will happen.  There are many large and effective groups, Public Citizen, National Resources Defense Council, The League of Conservation Voters, Sierra Club, Greenpeace, and lots of others.  They have global reach, are able to mount legal actions and media campaigns, and have major lobbying presence.  Without such organizations we would certainly be lacking in major offensive capabilities.  But is there a “central clearing house” or some other entity among them that can coordinate efforts including mobilization of the masses?  Can funds from donations among all the organizations be coordinated better to achieve effective campaigns?  The effectiveness is important because time is of the essence.  Lots of people much smarter than I am must have the answers.  Is anyone familiar with an organization such as that which I suggest?  Am I approaching this incorrectly?

Sorry, but the powers that be decided a long time ago that they dont need us.  We are being eliminated.  The only thing left to do is to decide what to do with the time that is given to you.  Make good decisions.  Dont give up; even when the end comes.  Spread love. 

I dont know what the end will be, but I want to believe it wont be a complete disaster.  I see too many things converging to not believe that something very big is going to happen.  However, that doesn’t mean it has to be bad.

I often tell my parents, both of whom turned 80 this year, that at 39 years of age, I would gladly trade places with either of them. They will more than likely die before the proverbial shit hits the fan.

My understanding is that in order to reverse--or otherwise seriously retard or affect--the processes of Global Warming, Humanity (on a Global scale) would have to implement radical and revolutionary Political, Economic, and Lifestyle sea-changes...that just ain’t gonna happen in the time we have left.

You may call that “defeatist”, I call it realistic.

-David (RabidLeftist)

“Absent the rapid mobilization of climate advocates at every level—and the pooling of all their energy, creativity, and resources into a coordinated, no-holds-barred campaign—we will soon be crossing the threshold into climate hell.”

~Ross Gelbspan, “The Big Name Game”, Grist Magazine (July 31, 2002)

“Absent the rapid mobilization of climate advocates at every level—and the pooling of all their energy, creativity, and resources into a coordinated, no-holds-barred campaign—we will soon be crossing the threshold into climate hell.”

~Ross Gelbspan, “The Big Name Game”, Grist Magazine (July 31, 2002

Doesn’t this indicate that we can still do this thing?  We can’t if we give up the fight, that’s for certain, because, as indicated above, a no-holds-barred campaign requires massive mobilization of the citizenry on a global scale.  Much of the rest of the world is way ahead of America in their efforts, so, by combining efforts, isn’t there enough possibility to encourage you?

“I dont know what the end will be, but I want to believe it wont be a complete disaster.  I see too many things converging to not believe that something very big is going to happen.  However, that doesn’t mean it has to be bad.”

I strongly agree with you.  The signs of people becoming fed up are everywhere.  Bush may have won another term, but over 50,000,000 people don’t want this administration.  And, though I can’t prove it and never will, I’m willing to wager that 5,000,000 or so Republicans who voted for him did so because they thought enough uproar was made by Americans everywhere over some of the policies that the administration finally got it and will begin to cooperate rather than dominate.  If this cooperation does not occur within the next year, I believe these 5,000,000 or so will join the rest of Americans in forcing change.

Do you believe there is merit to this theory?

“1nonsevilepeasant”
Bush is going to feel more empowered now to continue on the path he has been on. He doesn’t have to listen to reasonable voices and he definitely doesn’t have to listen to any left wing liberal types.
The trend in this country is not just to the right but in many areas to the extreme right. This may be the natural pendulum swing and it will return towards the center then to the left if allowed to continue. What we see however, is that the right has the momentum to stop all movement towards the center or to the left.
We can only hope that people wake up in time from their intellectual slumber and realize we are on the wrong path.
Your theory is at least hopeful, and that’s all we have left for the moment.

<<Do you believe there is merit to this theory? >>

Of course. We were all stars once. Had to work our way through all the elements. That we’re here at all is a wonder. If each of us stops feeding into millennialism’s self-fulfilling prophecy, we might have the good sense to start fixing what’s wrecked, and work with nature rather than against it. Like Lewis Thomas told us, the successes are those who learn to find their place in sustaining the web of life. That’s not Pat Robertson, Bush, and the Leftbehinders. They read their magic book and think man has dominion over the earth. (Dominion!) They then feel obliged to make it dance for them. They’re god’s chosen, after all. And a flash in the pan.

We don’t make the flowers bloom, thank the gods. We just have to learn to stop killing them.

Here, look. Then I promise I’ll shut up. My friend just sent this:

I’ve had tearful phone calls and despairing email from former students. This
is what I wrote them this morning.

Don’t give in to despair, my friends. Look at the numbers, for a start, the
closeness of the races. Be happy that New Hampshire and Pennsylvania showed
their true colors, as did Wisconsin. It isn’t a mandate, although Bush will
doubtless think so, if he thinks at all.

Cause for concern? Yes. But this is still America, although one that it’s
hard to recognize now and then. West Viriginia, for instance—a place where
Bush’s environmental policies are raping the land, a place of huge unemployment,
bad water, poor schools—they voted for him. This is also the place where
the Republicans ran ads saying that the Democrats would ban the bible if
elected. To some of our citizens, if you ain’t got much, you still have your God. And
that’s likely what they voted.

We once made it through a costly, horrendous civil war. We are still scarred
from that battle, but intact.

The important thing is to keep your eye on the prize. Keep fighting for what
is strong and good and true about America. Be the good citizen, the loyal
opposition. Find courage in your heart.

We will survive this. Let it be with honesty, bravery and grace.

phoebe

“To look with the eyes and see with the heart is the secret of the Philosopher’s Stone.” ~Petrus Bonus

Deborah,

I am a woman from WV and I would like to address the comments you made about WV.

WV voted for Kerry at about the same rate as the rest of the country (45%..close to the 49 of the country) ...not like the rest of the Bible Belt or those northern states.

Secondly..the rape of our natural resources has made the rest of this country wealthy, while keeping us “mountain folk impoverished.” Those pork barrel projects given to us by Byrd are pennies thrown to us for the SUV’s the wealthy drive and the big homes heated by OUR coal, and built with our lumber. Many from WV see the rape of natural resources in a different light-they see it as jobs. As long as steel is outsourced to India and tech jobs go somewhere else, we only have our natural resources. (Luckily, tourism is BIG here).

The issue here was abortion. We tried to tell the national campaign about this after we lost major local elections two years ago because of anti-abortion activist nastiness.

We progressives here are mourning with the rest of the 49% who voted for change and we all need to cry in our beer tonight and work for change tomorrow.!

Nspeasent-

I agree wholeheartedly that there must be a coordinated effort, a sort of central hub in order for all of the environmental/human rights/peace orgs to effectively mobilize those of us here (and in other countries.) Here’s hoping they’ve thought of it as well--MoveOn, ACT, TrueMajority, etc. had already united in our sadly failed effort to oust Bush-- I pray they (or someone) are working on a new plan. Today I am wavering moment to moment between hope and utter despair. Whatever happens had better happen fast, as I truly believe we are in a state of emergency. Please forgive my scattered thoughts. From a spiritual perspective...perhaps this is what was “supposed” to happen...perhaps the level of change that is required for our evolution must happen in a fashion more extreme than any of us ever wanted to be a part of. I don’t know what that looks like, I can’t see clearly for lack of sleep and tears. I’ll allow myself such personal cleansing for a while, but then it’ll be time to decide, on a very deep level, what my role is to be in all of this. Your words and energy, all of you, have been a great source of strength. Thank you.

Still holding the Light (albeit with a shaky hand...)

Robin,
My friend is in Boston (and heartbroken as the rest of us). I’m next door to you in VA. I hear ya. I KNOW the way abortion has been used (and twisted and misused) as the No. 1 issue to polarize people.

We just have to remember that as many people voted against Bush as for him, and that’s even with Diebold running full tilt. 

The US might be the Titanic, but it’s just another ship on a rolling sea of icebergs. Josh, as ever, speaks sense:

http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2004_10_31.php#003927

“Where ignorance is bliss, tis folly to be wise.”

Deborah,

“Then I promise I’ll shut up.”

Please, don’t!  Words of encouragement from all quarters are needed in great quantity and quality now that the regime has gotten itself another 4 years.

Do you frequent many other forums so that your words can be spread?  The spreading of the word managed to awaken America, not quite enough though I think the failure may be in strategy and tactics rather than lack of quantity of communication, and it is the word spreading that will continue to educate the masses.  Obviously, if say 70,000,000 Americans understood the truly dire situation the entire world is in, Bush would be out and Kerry would have a mandate.

People with the intellectual capabilities and knowledge of those who have posted here thus far are the very people who will educate and bring about changed attitudes to the quantity of people required for the no-holds-barred campaign as mentioned by david (rabidleftist).  There are those among us with the mastery of the written word who can, with stentorian voice and eloquence of phrase, assist in the educational processes.  How can we find and attract these people to specific coordinated efforts?  How do we spread their words throughout all the myriad URL’s that will exponentially increase the numbers of those being educated?

Steph,

“. . . perhaps this is what was “supposed” to happen...perhaps the level of change that is required for our evolution must happen in a fashion more extreme than any of us ever wanted to be a part of.”

It’s extremely difficult to think of this travesty of another 4 years of Dubya as being able to produce anything good, but I believe that it will bring about change if, and only if, we don’t give up an inch and increase our efforts, as tough as that might be.  It seems to me that America is always reactionary and mobilizes as a whole, sort of, only when jolted into action by disastrous circumstances.  Many of these disastrous circumstances are likely to occur during this next year and I believe that the masses will be mobilized.  Again, however, the masses must consist of sufficient numbers of citizens fully armed with the knowledge of the pertinent issues and with confidence in their ability to take action and press it to obtain the goals.

I’m new to this electronic environment and I may not be familiar with the numbers of organizations that more experienced online inhabitants may have in their arsenal.  I do know of the organizations you mentioned.  Do you think that getting the central-clearing-house idea off the ground could be as simple as sending a letter to every organization asking for their opinions of how such a coordinated effort might be set into motion?

Hi 1nonservilepeasant :

That’s so kind. But FOX pulls them in with emotion, not fact. FOX is best at DIS-information, and disinformation is what won this election.  Good resource and food for thought:  http://www.pipa.org/

Emotion. The abortion issue is so charged that its utility is endless to those who exploit it. Really—I’m thinking we should stand back and let them overturn women’s reproductive rights. Then let the Republicans deal with the sons and daughters of men. That will be a revelation.

The ability to think symbolically is what’s been lost between the Georges the First (Washington) and Georges the present. I have no idea how to fight their god industry. It verges on a cult.

I think what we need to do most of all is become living flesh and blood communities again. Find solace in other living hearts and eyes:

Join others in your community tonight at the Democracy for America Meetup to celebrate your hard work and discuss the next steps for your local group: http://dfa.meetup.com

As on the internet, expect to be invaded by Freepers and lurkers. Mostly, Republicans were losers in high school. That’s why they love all this stealth, fire and brimstone.

(See? Emotion pulls them in.)

Tonight, I’ll pull out Thomas Hardy and weep with him. And Homer:  Iliad, book 9 line 318 and on. And Jung. Oh god yes, Jung. And history books—history teaches us the origins of our prejudices. It’s also a good place to get an ear for the sound of jackboots.

Want to be informed? Start by believing it can happen here.

We have had a message from someone calling themselves the “patriot” that was only to thrilled to share thier jubilant hatred with us.
Many of these right wing folks now will feel emboldened to more openly display their hatred.
I live in a blue state but a very red county where anti-Kerry and anti-liberal bumper stickers are common, including one that says “all liberals should be shot” which seems like it should be illegal to have anything like that displayed in public, but it’s freedom of speech, I guess.
We can thank our friends in the so-called “liberal media” for their efforts to clarify for the electorate the issues that were important.
I can hear it now..."God has spoken"…
The positive of this is that 51% of the population is presumably pleased. Certainly of that 51 % some actually have the capacity to grasp
the gravity of results and have to have mixed emotions.

The word “nightmare” has new meaning.

Now is a good time to give money to the Earthjustice people: www.earthjustice.org

They are the best line of defense against the continuing assault on the environment by the environmental terrorists so firmly entrenched in Washington, D.C.

They have thwarted many, many bulldozers, chainsaws, and oil drills unleashed by the terrorists.

As for our future, I am an optimist...we will not go back to living in caves when the last well runs dry. Alternative fuel technology will eventually come to these shores, even if it has to be developed and implemented elsewhere. And only because slightly more than half the electorate has no faith in humanity, but much faith in the supernatural.

“Yes, and as Bush and Kerry are out campaigning, we are presently touching off nearly the very last whiffs and drops and chunks of them. All lights are about to go out. No more electricity. All forms of transportation are about to stop, and the planet Earth will soon have a crust of skulls and bones and dead machinery.”

A little poetic license here.  We’re not about to run out of oil, we’re about to hit Hubert’s Peak--the top of the bell shaped oil production curve.

The U.S. hit Hubert’s peak in 1970 at around 10 million barrels a day.  Now we produce barely over half that.

The Energy Information Agency, which keeps track of these things, puts out a monthly report of the oil production in 30 countries plus a catch-all “other.” Of those, 12 are now in decline, inlcuding such major producers as Norway, the United Kingdom, Indonesia, and Venezuela.  Altogether these 12 countries are 8 million barrels a day below their peak production.  Last year alone they lost over a million barrels a day of production.

With every new country that rolls over into decline, it makes it that much harder for the remaining countries to replace the loss plus keep up with increasing demand (lately lead by the Chinese who want their own auto indutry just like ours.)

The Saudis sent a chill through the market recently when, after promising to increase their production, all they could come up with some very poor grade, heavy oil.  The Suadi’s were supposed to be able to carry the load for several more decades.  But like all OPEC countries, the Saudis lie about how much oil they have left.

The future is not one where the lights suddenly go off, it is one where the economy keeps banging its head on an ever lowering ceiling.

Oh...and then there are the millions who will die as food and water supplies ar