As a novelist, historian, essayist, playwright, screenwriter, politician and raconteur, Gore Vidal has been a voice of reason and dissent since the publication of his first novel The City and the Pillar, in 1948. The author of Lincoln and Julian recently spoke with In These Times and its affiliated radio show /www.fireontheprairie.com/>“Fire on the Prairie”, about his latest book Imperial… return to article
-
subscribe to print magazine
-
email this article to a friend
-
Reader Comments (63)Page 1 of 1 pagesI am shattered - It looks like Bush has won. Well, I have relatives in the UK and Ireland and I think I am long overdue a visit there - for about 4 years at least. When the draft comes back, all good jobs are gone, the Iraq war is in its 5th or 6th year, personal choice and freedom are a thing long gone, when gas is only for those earning big salaries, when people die for lack of healthcare or the price of drugs, when more terrorist attacks decimate our population and the Christian right finally regains the power it has lusted after for so long, then only then will the morally deficient, self serving, bigoted idiots who voted for Bush realise that (unless they are multi - billionaires) they are NOT his base, he got what he wanted from you and now he’s going to do what he likes. Four more years of a fucking low iq, fundaMENTAList, morally bankrupt, lying, cheating scumbag like him in charge? no thanks. Its off to free europe for me. fuck you usa (Former patriot)
Posted by Shattered on Nov 3, 2004 at 4:20 AM I just cannot believe that more than 50% of my countrymen and women voted for this criminal regime. I am heartbroken.
And the Iraqis, Syrians, Iranians, et al. will very shortly be literally heart broken, destroyed by the mindless might of the USA.
And then we Americans and Israelis will once again have our hearts blood spilled in the streets.
The evil twin US/Israeli regimes will have what they wanted, permanent war. Boeing’s take increased by 78% last quarter because of this war.
The Great Depression was a great time to be alive if you had the dough. You drove a Dusenberg. Today they drive Hummers in honor of the perpetual war.
Even this will someday pass, but by then the United States I knew and loved and grew up in will be an irretrievable memory, dead as a doornail.
Posted by John Francis Lee on Nov 3, 2004 at 5:59 AM The Democratic Party is officially dead. The party is so out of touch with middle America that it has completely lost sight of how to reach them and how to persuade them.
The party of FDR, Kennedy and Clinton has so tied itself to the special interests, not due to the underhanded tactics of the GOP, but due to it’s own insulated, ivory tower mentality and sense of blind self righteousness. That it is incapable of connecting with that larger part of the population which SHOULD be it’s base. Working people! This was the party of the WORKING MAN. I deliberately said MAN and not person, because Working PERSON smacks of the type of political correctness, CREATED BY NORTHEAST LIBERAL ELITES, which forces REGULAR PEOPLE to turn away in disgust.
This was possibly the weakest Republican President (and that includes George the 41) in 30 years. A sitting President shackled with an unpopular war, a mediocre economy and a questionable intellect, and the Democrats couldn’t beat him. Sad.
Worse than that, do the Democrats lead with their best offense? NO. They select a NORTHEAST LIBERAL SENATOR, with an undistinquished record, and expect to win by simply having him toss his war medals around.
Has the Democratic Party truly become so intellectually and politically bankrupt?
Where are you FDR? Where are you JFK? We need you more now than ever. Before the Democratic Party truly becomes DOA.
Posted by Angelo Brattoli on Nov 3, 2004 at 6:25 AM These will be hard days.
Please do not despair. Use the pain and the fear. The fight will be harder now that we have left this administration another four years to continue along their path. By the next election cycle we shall have seen the full expression of their agenda. They no longer must be circumspect. They now have what they will consider to be the actual endorsement of the American people for their vision and they need not tread softly for fear of electoral rejection. Listen closely and you will hear their most audacious plans being pulled out of the backs of safes and dusted off for implementation. What has been hidden shall be revealed. They are sure to be emboldened and we shall shortly see what they have had in their most ambitious plans. Keep your wits about you and watch. Get off your blunt ends and go out there somewhere and get busy. Feel your fear and go to battle where it lies: If you fear for your civil liberties, find where that battle is being fought and join it. If you fear for your economic stability, find others who share your fear and band together for action. If you’re young and fear war, don’t be intimidated by the macho braying around you. Find others and join the battle to protect yourselves. Being afraid to be sent far away to be shot at by strangers is not cowardice. Remember that.
Do not surrender your actions to your anger or your pain. Use them both to motivate you. If you think our Constitution should expand and protect rights and liberties, not limit them, you stand with the Founders. If you believe that citizens’ spirituality should inform and guide and enrich their lives and that, still, it has no place in law or governance, you stand with the Founders. If you think that the answer to danger is more freedom and not less and that the power in the country must rest in or be wrested by the broad and diverse population and not the uniform and centralized government, you are with the Founders. Now it is we who must “Keep our eyes on the prize.” Democracy is not a gentle or quiet form of governance. Its very essence is the constant pull and tug of diverse opinion and opposed action. The pendulum swings, always, and we accurately perceive danger at either extreme. When we see it swing toward the danger we are to use our voices and our votes to slow it and arrest that motion and guide it toward another cycle. Now is that time. If you are alarmed…good! Notice what it is that alarms you, focus upon it, find others similarly alarmed and get busy! You aren’t beaten until you stop.
This nation is an experiment: Can and will a diverse and divergent population continue to select paths that move it toward increasing freedom and growing democracy? Can and will the ever-present impulses of self interest and greed be balanced and checked by the equally ubiquitous human quest for self determination and liberty? Given the opportunity to lead or to allow themselves to be led, what will such citizens do? Will they tolerate the discomfort of keeping awake and the risk of taking responsibility for their governance and continue to be citizens or will they be comfortably anesthetized into subjects?
The experiment continues.
John Gillmore
Posted by John Gillmore on Nov 3, 2004 at 7:14 AM To John Gilmore,
John while I respect what you say, I am deadly serious about leaving. I had a fear that this would happen and had a contigency plan (unlike bush’s Iraq). So its bye bye USA. I am deserting to a place where freedom is still a reality. Hopefully I shall never return to the country that voted in this shameful excuse for a human - I hate America now and for ever on for happened yesterday and I will be seeking European citizenship.
Goodbye and Good luck.
Posted by Shattered on Nov 3, 2004 at 8:02 AM Hey, what’s the matter? Not mad at me for pulling some strings over at the NSA, aren’t ya? Them Hackers really did well for me, hahaha, voting machines that don’t even have a paper log, hahaha.
Well, it looks like we (how conspicious hahaha)are going to be able to get away with it once again!
All you stupid Idiots out there who voted for Skull and Bones, thx! Not that it mattered, we have arranged results anyway, but hey, the show must go on!!!
Posted by Skull & Bush on Nov 3, 2004 at 8:09 AM Hey guys, cheer up a second…
Never forget that the PEOPLE in a vast majority of the world is with you in your fight against fascism at home…
The Bush regime will NEVER be accepted in the world, and the opposistion to it will only grow. History is long in the making and this is only a battle lost…
Long live the likes of you all !
Posted by Alexis on Nov 3, 2004 at 8:44 AM Bush freed Afghanastan.
Attempts to rebuild Iraq into a nation are on going (and won’t be much different under Bush vs Kerry).
We do not know the future. Who would have guessed that Bush would become a nation builder (remember that he never bothered to take an overseas trip before he was President).
The US will go on. It was not that long ago when the Dems had a lock on the Congress after all.
Try to see the good and the bad, it is both more accurate and more interesting!
Have fun.
Posted by getAGrip on Nov 3, 2004 at 9:57 AM well, there’s no polite way to put this: the mother fuck er has won again, this time legitimately, it seems, and the next four years are not going to be happy times for us regular guys. i don’t know what else to say other than americans obviously want this jerk and they want to believe in the fantasies he’s told us. americans obviously want low-paying jobs, factories moving the china, job insecurity, greed, wealth for the few and general anti-social behavior. they want war and intrigue and budget deficits that generations will inherit. they want the rich even richer. they want the working poor scrambling more than they already are. they want religious radicals and faith-based insitutions calling the shots and administering to the issues government is supposed to be handling. it sounds irrational, i know, but what else could it be? they voted reagan twice, clinton twice and now this fool. i’m not going to be idiotic enough to throw in the towel and move to canada or even say that i’m going to do that. this is my country, it’s what i know and to be honest, i don’t have the means or the guts to move. we’re all going to suffer, i can say that. and the country is going to get dumber and increasingly more mean-spirited, as gore vidal and other observers of our culture say. woe is me. woe is us! DAMN!
Posted by mb on Nov 3, 2004 at 10:24 AM I am impressed by all of you guys. You have expressed highly perspicuous insights. Reading the above has done more for me than reading dozens of “columnists” in the “standard press” will ever do.
I would add this: There are laws of karma. Some of you may not believe that, but I do. It may be that Bush had to be re-elected to reap what he has sown. Kerry is now absolved from that.
If there are laws of karma for nations also, then God save America.
Posted by Hugh on Nov 3, 2004 at 10:40 AM It’s still not entirely clear to me if Bush’s win is evidence of just how deluded and twisted the American psyche has become, or just how corrupt our political process has become. I suspect a bit of both.
I can only hope that someday the citizens of this country will take much greater responsibility for seeking out truth. All Americans have to make more effort to recognize when they are being duped, and know when they need to scratch beneath the surface to find what is real. A skeptical citizenship is a healthy one.
Perhaps the greatest disappointment I have is in those who are Christian and voted on that basis by casting their ballots for Bush. I can only hope that in the future they act in a truly Christian manner: finding ways to truly help their fellow beings, rather than promoting hate (against Muslims), intolerance (against gays), poverty (lost jobs), and disease (lost healthcare). With the next four years of Bush, I see all these negatives, and many more, greatly escalating.
What a deeply sad day for America.
Posted by Silvia Fernandez on Nov 3, 2004 at 11:21 AM Gore Vidal makes the same mistakes than other “less informed” people.
He groups together terrorists groups and ethnic groups. He says: “The Brits lived with the IRA for generations. The Spanish live with the Basques. The Italians have the Red Brigades”
The Basques are members of an European ethnic group, a nation without state, to mention them on the same line with the IRA and the Red Brigades is to indicate that a person with a Basque ethnic ground is a terrorist.
Gore Vidal then echoes the venom expresed by the people he criticises in his column.
Posted by Alex Eguia-Lis on Nov 3, 2004 at 11:30 AM What a sad sad day for the entire world. America sided with the bigots...I guess we gonna really make them ragheads pay now huh? So depressing.
Christian Right my a$$...Born Again? They’re the KKK reborn without the hoods.
Hope they still feel the same way when Oil is $65/barrell, when the only job is as greeter at Walmart, and body bags start coming home on a daily basis…
Posted by neil on Nov 3, 2004 at 11:50 AM America voted for this b@#$tard and deserves him. The rest of the world didn’t and will suffer for it. I don’t really know what else to say, other than I am terrified of the next 4 years, honestly I am more frightened today than I was the day after 9/11.
Posted by ol on Nov 3, 2004 at 11:57 AM Shattered: we won’t miss you. I’m just hope you follow through with leaving. Any of you other losers packing it up?
Posted by Sal on Nov 3, 2004 at 11:59 AM Class act, Sal.
Glad to see your conservatism is as steady as your President’s.
Posted by LIBERAL and PROUD on Nov 3, 2004 at 12:12 PM to sal:
i know of no other diplomatic or polite way to put this, so i’ll just say it outright, you jughead:
F.U.C.K. yourself!
Posted by mb on Nov 3, 2004 at 12:20 PM I remember back when the Prez made an address a few months ago, and the ratings said he was beaten by an episode of The Swan or whatever the fuck it was called.
And that’s just it, isn’t it?
No grand conspiracy, just the sad fucking fact that you Americans have de-evolved into a quivering mass of brain-dead masturbators in every sense of the word, sprawled out in front of the boob tube, with your dicks in your hands, watching makeovers, Donald Trump screaming “You’re fired!,” and the sex lives of plastic-surgery-enhanced celebrities while you let a handful of criminals, liars, murderers and profiteers gain control of the world’s most powerful military.
If only it were physically possible for me to piss on all of you at once…
...I would.
Posted by Capt. Fucko on Nov 3, 2004 at 1:01 PM Let it go. We’ll all be dead in a hundred years anway. Let it go and live.
Posted by Nostradamus on Nov 3, 2004 at 1:09 PM Be careful Capt. Fucko.
We all got our dicks in our hands. So, I’d be careful about who it is that might get pissed ON.
Posted by LIBERAL and PROUD on Nov 3, 2004 at 1:12 PM Almost all of the Christian voters that i know will *never* vote for anyone who supports abortion (75% of evangelicals voted for Bush). They feel abortion is murder of the unborn. I have to give this group some credit - while they have strong feelings that abortion is murder, tehy participate in the political process as they should. I’ve yet to see any of them take the wacko point of view that they will leave the country if their candidate loses. This is sort of like if i can’t have my way, i’ll take my ball and go home. . .
Posted by understandingTheVote on Nov 3, 2004 at 1:22 PM While it may provide comfort to think that Americans voted for Bush due to ignorance and apathy, i do not believe that this is the case. Bush won for several reasons:
1) Kerry was a very weak candidate. He had no claim to the “moral high ground” that possibly could have been his.
2) Bush supports the rights of the unborn, a very big issue, especially in the South.
3) Bush is promising tax relief and has already provided a great deal to the middle classes (the $1000/child tax credit being a good example of this).
4) Neither candidate was clearly superior, giving some edge to the wartime incumbant.
5) Silly lies by some Dems caused a loss of credibility (exampels: Bush will slash social security by 45%, Bush will reinstitute the draft).
It seems clear to me that the mainstream media would have prefered Kerry. Even that was not enough to close the gap between these two very weak candidates.
Posted by missingThePoint on Nov 3, 2004 at 1:46 PM This Just In:
Harshly reacting to the unexpected victory of Bush & Co. in the American election tuesday, almost all competent Americans with the means decided to “outsource” themselves.
“I don’t know where I’m going, I’m just outta’ here!” replied Susan Smith to our inquries, “I thought the majority of Americans had the ability to simply think, you know...use logic and reason...I can’t believe I could have been so naive!"..."good luck digging yourselves out of this hole!” she added with a creepy smirk before entering the security checkpoint at Chicago O’Hare airport, never to return.
It is expected that by the end of November, a very large amount of American citizens will have done the same, leaving just over 60% of the population to “fend for themselves.”
Left alone at the controls, these very emotional and not all-too-bright Americans are already reaping havoc, trying to “bomb back to the stoneage” all of the “goddamned terrorist towel heads” of the world. Unfortunatley, due to their lack of simple geography skills, Hawaii and Antarctica have both suffered irreparable damages.
Another interesting development caused by their military arrogance has caused a new valcano to be born in the middle of Branson, Missouri in an attempt to “git rid of that damned Satan for good,” by drilling and bombing under ground indiscriminately.
Maybe voting was just as important as registering, after all.... think about that 18-24 year olds..... we might not get a next time!
Posted by Elliot Cook on Nov 3, 2004 at 1:49 PM John Gillmore,and mb,and neil,you are each on point. The kid gloves are off. Alot is at risk, round 2 to begun, this is truly a sad day, but we can’t give up we got to organize and win the war. For the sake of Peace and Justice, here in this country and abroad.
Posted by Charles on Nov 3, 2004 at 2:27 PM What intrigues me most is that the incumbent won because people put morals ahead of everything else… not the failing war or failing economy (Ohio has lost 20% of their jobs over the past four years goddamnit), but morals!!! You have got to be kidding!! The majority of right-wingers are the most morally depraved people that exist. When you hear about child molestation or phone sex scandals who is in the center of it… a priest?… a neo-con pundit?
So are the F’ ing evangelicals minds so made of putty that the government can mold them to think whatever they want them to. How else could a president who dodged a war, drank and did coke until the age of forty, and killed innocent Iraqi’s and Afghans in the name of resource hoarding get RE-elected by those very same F’ ing evangelicals!!!
Here’s to the United Blue States of America!!! There is nothing to fear but a republican controlled White House, Senate, and House!!… oh and fear itself
Posted by lefty on Nov 3, 2004 at 2:28 PM Where are our founding fathers when we need them? Their legacy lived for so long. The thought of an America that thinks and lives on it’s own is gone. America loves the mob mentality. Reality TV controls the thoughts of mainstream America, like a bright shiny object and a newborn, we stare into the light while some old man robs us of our candy. There is hope though. The hope is social darwinism. These mafiosos will trip over their own feet. The scheming tactics will only fool people for so long. It will be just like a Scooby Doo episode. We will pull the mask off and realize it was the same old enemy all along. Hopefully then we put a bullet in his ass, and God rest his soul. The earth shall move on.
Posted by Big Bear on Nov 3, 2004 at 2:36 PM The Beast has awakened fully in this country. Let’s face it: the U.S. has never lived up to its ideals concerning inclusiveness and equality. But now we have people conflating the idea of patriotism with a direct, hostile rejection of those ideals. It is a New America that they want, one that is created in their image. Radical, brutal, exclusive, and a place apart from the life of the “world”. They want to go against all the information that runs counter to their beliefs, and simplify, making the world “about” a very few issues.
As always, however, we must maintain hope, and hope can only lead to change if we try to understand that hostility, that venom. And we have to root it out in ourselves. The battle is still on, but we have to be true warriors, respectful of the enemy, and eager to see an end to the hostilities, bringing the enemy into the fold rather than see the enemy destroyed.
Again, “we have seen the enemy, and it is us.”
Courage.
Posted by Paul on Nov 3, 2004 at 2:45 PM “Respectful of the enemy,” yes, and stop thinking of him as the enemy but as someone who is confused and misunderstands the issues. Also be willing to learn from him or her of his or her fears and confusions and dispel them gently, for arrogance loses voters and elections.
I strongly recommend Nicholas Kristof’s column in today’s NYT. Although I often don’t agree with him, he hit it today: He explained why the Democrats are losing their working class “base” much better than anyone else has:
http://www.nytimes.com/2004/11/03/opinion/03kris.htmlThis is must reading. Get to know at least one Evangelical or working class Bush voter and show him or her who the real Devil is. Not easy. Patience is not easy for me either but it’s what we need now.
Posted by Hugh on Nov 3, 2004 at 2:54 PM thank you ladies and gentlemen. charles, i appreciate your endorsement. it’s nice when others don’t feel you’re lost and irrational. though it may be hard to believe, sometimes just because the rest of the world says everything is all right doesn’t necessarily make it so. why did ohio vote for bush? the same reason burned out places like flint, east st. louis, rockford and northwest indiana do: they’d rather see some sadistic slave/master paradigm than any sort of fairness. i travel about quite frequently and i talk to a lot of people. i talk to business owners and homeless people alike. i ate at a restaurant that has been on the decline after 25 years in business because joblessness in nw indiana has been on the rise and more people are out of work or working marginal jobs with lousy pay and benefits. still, the fool votes republican every time. he’d rather slit everyone’s throat than see someone get ahead. i see poor folks driving beaters paying $2.25 a gallon for gas so they can drive to their wal-mart positions, and they tout such wonderful bumper stickers as ‘bush-cheney 04,’ ‘don’t like my driving? dial 800-eat s h i t,’ ‘this vehicle protected by smith and wesson,’ and other niceties. i totally agree with captain fucko, america is no longer a nation, a body politic of unified individuals striving for a higher purpose or even a better life. we’re a bunch of tv watching, CEO worshiping, gangsta rappa, sports fanatics who don’t know where we are or where we’re going. we’re an empire. need proof? read gibbon’s decline and fall of the roman empire, an historical masterpiece that was once required reading in many college and even high school curricula a couple generations ago. even the poor and struggling would rather have bush than vote for someone who might at least aspire to something better. i work with people who can’t pay their bills and could go bankrupt if they miss one paycheck. do they vote for kerry or would they embrace any of nader’s ideals? hell, no! i think americans would go for hitler before they would choose someone compassionate and wise. the motto of this country should be “go get it yourself, loser.” we are the corporate states of america. money rules now. and if you don’t have it or have no access to it, too f’n bad for you. think i’m cynical? okay, fine. the next four years is going to make believers out of all of us. i’m not leaving this country unless, of course, it gets so bad it’s impossible for an average person to make a living. then i’ll do what i have to do. yes, i think we’ll go on, but this is a bad day for all of us. at this moment, all humanistic individuals need to huddle together, if for any reason, just to comfort and console one another.
Posted by mb on Nov 3, 2004 at 2:59 PM Most evangelicals consider abortion murder. Until the Democrats can deal with that, the evangelicals are going to be one issue voters.
Posted by missingThePoint on Nov 3, 2004 at 3:02 PM enemy
\En"e*my\, n.; pl. Enemies.
One hostile to another; one who hates, and desires or attempts the injury of, another; a foe; an adversary; as, an enemy of or to a person; an enemy to truth, or to falsehood.
Posted by Paul on Nov 3, 2004 at 3:03 PM about to have a psychotic breakdown. is half of america completely insane? does the reality of jobs gone, war in the wrong country(ies), missile (de)farce, erosion of civil rights and the environment, and tax cuts for the obscenely rich completely elude all the rednecks? they are more concerned with gays ruining marriage and abortion than keeping their jobs and actually trying to solve hostility to u.s. policy. i feel like i just got skull fucked. on a side note, here is a transcript of bin ladens video the other day.
http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=312
Posted by hvmiller on Nov 3, 2004 at 4:19 PM I mean seriously, what the fuck just happened to our country? they fire football coaches and quarterbacks for less. 4 years of complete, radical, la-la land policy fuck ups and gets reelected by the biggest group of suckers to ever exist.
Posted by hvmiller on Nov 3, 2004 at 4:22 PM Bush freed Afghanastan.
Attempts to rebuild Iraq into a nation are on going (and won’t be much different under Bush vs Kerry).
We do not know the future. Who would have guessed that Bush would become a nation builder (remember that he never bothered to take an overseas trip before he was President).
The US will go on. It was not that long ago when the Dems had a lock on the Congress after all.
Try to see the good and the bad, it is both more accurate and more interesting!
Have fun.
Are you seriously IQ-challenged?? What kind of press do you get in the US? The rest of the WORLD knows that Afghanistan is not FREE!!! Ask the women who have stopped going out without their burkas, ask the young girls who cannot go to school anymore.
The only ‘free’ thing is the pipeline from the Caspian, across Turkmenistan, through Afghanistan and Pakistan which will pump gas for Unocal (an old company of Bush’s!!)
This was the pipeline he was trying to get the Taleban to agree to 5 and a half months BEFORE 9/11!!!!!!!!!! They were INVITED to Washington fer crissakes!! Even though it was KNOWN that they were harbouring a known enemy of the US - Osama Bin Laden.
Attempts at rebuilding Iraq? been there have you? I have - the only attempts at rebuilding is at the source of the oil - on the oilfields - just to ensure that it flows - directly into the US of A.
WAKE UP!!
It is war for profit and greed - and it certainly won’t benefit YOU - unless you are a shareholder in Unocal, Bechtel, Carlyle Group or Halliburton!!
Posted by AJ on Nov 3, 2004 at 5:00 PM The evangelicals who are one issue voters on abortion need to wake up and realize they are being duped. Abortion is on the rise under Bush. It is already difficult to get an abortion in many places without it being illegal, and even if Roe v. Wade is overturned I doubt the abortion rate will go down. If your real goal is to stop abortions, fix the underlying socio-economic problems that contribute to high numbers of abortions.
While some evangelicals might prefer to make a “moral stand” by outlawing abortion, I think some of them would soften on the issue if they truly understood this. We are failing to reach out and dialogue with these people in a way that might convince them of this.
Posted by Neal on Nov 3, 2004 at 5:36 PM To Alex Eguia-Lis:
It is obvious that Vidal was referring to the Basque Separatists rather than the Basque people in general. I would venture to guess that most people who didn’t grasp this obvious reference doesn’t know what “Basque” means in the first place.
Posted by Mike on Nov 3, 2004 at 5:58 PM No Mike, you too are incorrect. You need to understand that it is wrong, wrong, wrong to imply that an entire ethnic group is terrorist, along the lines of the IRA and the Red Brigade. Also, unfortunately, many people haven’t a clue what a Basque even is, so the effect of that mistaken statement is devestating, multiplied thousands of times. Basques in the US are constantly asked about 2 things: bombs and terrorism. It gets very old.
Also, you are mistaking by referring to Basque Seperatists as a whole, as being the terrorists. One can be a seperatist without being inclined to violence. Thousands upon thousands of Basques want self-determination for the future of their region and they are completely non-violent.
I
Posted by Cathleen on Nov 3, 2004 at 6:17 PM America still loves its cowboys.
I remember a story I once read about a cowboy daddy who had to leave his home for the range. Before leaving he gave his five year old son a pistol cause the world’s a dangerous place. The kid shot himself in the gut the same year and died. The daddy did much better for himself and made a killing in the gold fields of 49’.
Somebody left us human beings with a big gun and it looks like we’re just not mature enough to play with it. If you believe that most of humanity is a disappointment anyways, like I do, then the best you can hope for is to find some Indians to play with and stay away from the cowboys.
I hope that Mr. Bush and his people find their place in Vahala with the rest of the posse. I would rather keep my humanity and see the rest of you all in heaven, wherever that may be, maybe an Indian reservation in the cosmos.
Posted by Ted on Nov 3, 2004 at 6:57 PM This election should have been a gimme for the Democratic Party, but they couldn’t win because instead of leading the discussion, they let the opposition drag them by the nose from the beginning, and their candidate was absolutely the wrong choice.
First of all, Kerry’s rich, and he and his wife flaunt it. Six houses, $8000 bicycles, a $35,000 boat. And he expects the nebulous “middle class” to believe he cares about them?
Second and third, they showed fear. Instead of building a campaign that appealed to Nader supporters they spent more money in courthouses trying to keep him off the ballot than Nader had to spend on his campaign. Some “Democratic” party!
When even that didn’t work in Ohio, they sent Kerry out to blow away a goose—at a privately owned hunting preserve. Oh, yeah, that appealed to the working class! Furthermore, it was an insult to their intelligence, to think that shooting a goose was enough to pry loose an undecided voter. Issues, stupid! Issues! People want their jobs back, they don’t want to see some geek, whose wife is on the Fortune 400 list, dressed in camo and trying to be like them, they want someone who truly understands them and will help them. Which Kerry obviously did not and would not.
I voted for Walt Brown, the socialist, knowing I was throwing away a vote in the short term, but building for some possible better future. The major parties have never represented anything but the elite. Someone mentioned FDR and JFK. FDR was just another rich white guy. He handed out enough red meat in the 30s to forestall a workers’ uprising, which might have brought us the kind of government we deserve. JFK lied about USSR nuclear capabilities to help his buddies in the defense industry with enormous contracts for missiles. Slaves should not seek salvation from their masters.
Eisenhower warned of all this in his “Military-Industrial Complex” speech, given when he was leaving office in 1961. It’s online and highly recommended. Would that we had listened.
The left has to walk away from the Democratic Party and form a coalition, like the one that just won the presidency in Uruguay. We are fragmented, and the way the left savaged Ralph Nader was shameful. After 40 years of dedicated public service it was “see ya, Ralph.” All Kerry was to them was “not Bush.” Even Howard Zinn and [gasp] Noam Chomsky capitulated. Is “not Bush” the political ideology of an intellectual? We need new leadership and we need to pull the separate socialist parties together and FIGHT. If four more years of Bush makes things as bad as some people fear, that will stimulate us. Crises drive creativity. Struggle is a growth opportunity. Don’t run away like a refugee, stay home and fight. Be part of the solution.
Jim
Posted by Jim on Nov 3, 2004 at 7:36 PM This last election reminds me of when the Nats escaped their plurality in 1948 and seized the reins of power in South Africa until 1994.
Posted by Collin Baber on Nov 3, 2004 at 8:07 PM Well - look out world.
Who is next after Iraq?
Iran? Syria? N Korea?
And don’t forget, Bush hasn’t ever ruled out preemptive nuclear strikes!!!
Don’t be encouraging any young people to sign up to the armed forces. No matter how few jobs there may be around in some areas.
Your life will be laid down for Bechtel, Unocal, Halliburton, et al.
Posted by AJ on Nov 3, 2004 at 8:23 PM Come on everyone.
This is the best thing that could happen. Kerry would have made a terrible president. Despite having his heart in the right place and willingness to do the right thing, he would have been knee-capped from the start, hobbled by a government stacked with Republicans from the floor to the rafters.
This is not a time to wail in anguish. It is in fact a great wake up call. The majority of the people voted for Bush, and to extend the power of the Republican party in the Senate and the House. Not to mention what will happen in the Supreme Court. To call this a defeat is silly. It is a resounding victory for the people of America. A victory for Democracy. Finally we have a president with a clear majority vote. A proper mandate. The majority of Americans have spoken. They want Bush. They want the Republican party. They thirst for moral righteousness. Principles of faith and religion. The union of Church and state, not the unholy union between same sex couples. Preparation for the Rapture.
Since it has been made so abundantly clear in this last election that this is what America wants, I must say that the Democratic party has no place here anymore. Or any other progressive movement The majority of Americans do not want a secular power. They want to be ruled by the heart, not the head. The fight for a progressive society is over in America. If you wish to fight that fight, I suggest you find another battleground, cause brother, this war is already lost. America was a great idea while the illusion lasted. But I am afraid the dream has come to an end.
And why fight this fight anyway? Leave these devout, uneducated, unemployed masses behind to do with Old Glory what they see fit. It is high time to secede from the Union. We have nothing in common anymore but a flag.
Posted by Notweny on Nov 3, 2004 at 8:23 PM TO LIBERAL and PROUD:
Oh, I get it. After the USA has been blowing up the world for 50 years, and after you guys elect another terrorist, and after I insult the USA, your response is that I should watch my mouth or I might get pissed ON.
“Be careful Capt. Fucko. We all got our dicks in our hands. So, I’d be careful about who it is that might get pissed ON.”
Great. Another threat from an American.
OHH, me so sully, pleez exquzza me for my harsh WORDS while you drop thee harsh BOMBS.
Blow me!
The rest of the world should meet in secret and launch a full scale nuclear attack from all sides. A little pre-emptive, unilateral effort of the world’s own. At the very least the entire US population should be spayed and neutered.
What other choice is there?
You maniacal gluttons keep building SUVs and monster sports cars as if they ran on farts. You’re the killers of the world, and the world’s people. If it wasn’t so tragic, the USA would be a fine goddamn joke.
The rest of the world looks at you lunatics, worshipping Dr. Phil, Oprah and Donald (oops, sorry, I meant “THE DONALD") Trump as you suck on Viagra and hand over the keys to a group of homodical crooks looking to develop “mini-nukes.”
I’m not getting into a long online argument with an internet stranger. Say what you want about me, I don’t care.
God damn the stinking zombie corpse of the USA, and all the bullets, bombs, tears, blood, suffering and death it will bring in the next four years.
If you’re an American reading this, do the right thing and castrate yourself.
Posted by Capt Fucko on Nov 3, 2004 at 9:52 PM I am a disabled veteran, who is thinking about giving up my benefits and move my family to Canada. Reason is, either you will stay here and fight, or you can move to a progresive country that the world recognizes as a peaceful nation. I seen on CNN that there is already a 1 year waiting list. These evangelical Christians scare the shit out of my family and I. This is such a stark parellel to the German NAZIs. So, either you stay here and fight(which will happen soon), or do like my lineage did, migrate to a country with a better future. God save us.
Posted by the sarge on Nov 4, 2004 at 12:10 AM I know everyone is bent out of shape and more than a little disappointed, but I don’t think any of us should’ve been surprised by the results.
The Democrats have been in denial for a long time, and the American public has been in denial about its true nature. The main driving force determining which way people vote in this country is still race and religion. Media commentators have continually side-stepped the subject of race when talking about why the Democrats keep losing, despite the fact that the vote is clearly polarized along racial lines.
White, Christian fundamentalists control the Republican party, period. These people are at the far right edges of the political spectrum, and they comprise a significant portion of the voting populace. As long as African Americans support the Democrats in the numbers they do (almost 90%), these evangelicals will always vote Republican and Karl Rove realizes this. The Republicans win because they play to this base, while Democrats (particularly those in the DLC) have been trying to distance themselves from their base.
It has been reported that 88% of whites voted for Bush, a fact that I’m sure will receive less attention and scrutiny than the fact that 90% of blacks voted Democratic. The reactionary right is in control for another four years, and they will pursue their agenda with ferocity. Unfortunately, what people call the core of America (or what is considered “mainstream” or “the heartland") is this racist, homophobic, xenophobic, sexist, anti-choice, theocratic Taliban-like block of voters who are determined to take us back to the Stone Ages.
America, at its core, is rotten, and ripe for fascism. We should all take note and prepare accordingly. We need serious strategists, we need white progressives who are willing to get down in the trenches with blacks (who have always been the most consistent left block) and others who are reviled by the religious right.
Posted by pheromone 7.1 on Nov 4, 2004 at 12:13 AM I useta think that there would never be another attack on New York, back when I flirted with the pleasing notion than 9/11 was a Republican-Nazi conspiracy. Now, I don’t know shit about shit, but conspiracies is calming, as it makes every thing that doesn’t make sense, make at least a little bit of twisted sense.
These days, though, I ain’t so sure. My commute is pretty peaceful, through the backstreets of Belleville and across the Passaic, down the Bell pike in Kearny and N’Arlington and then it gets you...That view of the Manhattan skyline, looking up from the wide, flat swampiness of the Meadowlands. On some days the city looks so close you could flick it with your fingers (refracted by the air pollution?), but on others, it’s totally obscured by the clouds. I get to see it every morning. I can’t even remember where along it the Towers stood...Maybe behind that building there. The cylindrical one, yeah. Maybe? I can’t be sure.
And I can’t be sure, either, that we won’t be attacked again. Sometimes when I’m driving I can see, in my mind’s eye, planes flying into the buildings. Daydreams. But what do you do, America? Do you just pack up and move, like the old super of our building did after 9/11, out to some two-bit hick burg with no phone lines? Retreat into conspiracy theories? Despite the shitty cold of the winters, I don’t wanna live anywhere but here. So out of security concerns, we bolt, leave our lives, our families, our freedom--to choose where we live! behind. That ain’t American. Live free or die, say what? They--the terrorists, and the Cheney-Bush junta--have got us so worried about being safe and dying that we forget that what makes it America is that we can live like we ain’t gonna die.
So I guess that’s what I’m gonna do.
P.S. Up yours, Yankees.
Posted by Jim Teacher on Nov 4, 2004 at 1:28 AM When Carter said America was suffering a malaise, he was right on the button, even though it, among other things, lost him the election. America every now and then engages in some weird fads, be they dietary or economic. Right now we have the neo-con fad, which engages all Americans and the world as stand-ins but does not necessarily tell them what the play is all about. Rightfully, people abroad are worried, and the ranting Bushites in this column should at least understand that. There is precedent: 1929. The Wall Street crash affected much of the planet and led to a depression, which amongst other things, gave the Nazi Party in Germany the necessary psychological impetus to gain lots of lost ground. The 1920s began with the red scare hysteria and xenophobia and brought on some truly bizarre measures like the absurd Prohibition and the Mann Act, legislation that impinged on personal liberties. That regime held for 12 dark years.
These are phases in American history. Yes, they affect the world at large, today more than ever, but today things go faster.
In this election, most agree, what is amazing is that so many people voted against their own interests. It’s an American specialty. On election night, the neo-con pundits were gloating about their grip on all those southern and mid-western states. Well, most of the people living there are decent people, not the kind of psychopaths who write hate mails on this site. When those decent people realize that they have been shafted, and when the Democrats for once stop trying to imitate the neo-cons and stick to their liberal guns, you’ll see those states all in the blue column, with the exception of Utah, which is inhabited by a sect, and perhaps Idaho where the survivalists hold sway. There are too many contradictions in America for the country to be stable. I predict an overwhelming Democrat victory in 2008, 2012 at the latest. And the Democrats will stay in power for at least 20 years. With ifs:
1) There are still elections
2) They remain a combative opposition party and start working right down at the grass roots level, wherever they are.
3) Never underestimate the opposition.For those of you who are so despondent: John Kerry lost the election, because he was not authentic. He had a chance to wipe the floor with Bush and the neo-con babble, but he made a fundamental error. I learned in martial arts, when facing a larger adversary, you must literally bring him down to your level. The larger adversary (I am 6’3") must avoid being dragged down. Kerry made the error of trying to be a “Bush who speaks English properly”. The electorate learned fear from Bush, learned hysteria. Bush was like one of those horrible yapping lapdogs. Kerry should have comforted the voters à la Roosevelt (and he got close to doing so during the debates). Americans really have nothing to fear except… from the neo-con economic policies and the unilateral diplomacy. If I go down to my adversary’s level, I deserve to lose the battle.
But we are not dead. The battle goes on. Let the gloating subside, and buy some computer paper and envelopes. Don’t use email, it can be erased all to easily. And begin giving support, goading and insisting with your representatives in Congress and at community level. Especially the Democrats, who need to feel the force: Write letters to Senators, speak to people, engage the discussion, learn to stand tall, because Democrats won this election morally. The Reps had nothing of substance to offer, they spread knee-jerk fear, used lies and Goebbels-like propaganda. W stole the election in 2000, he went to war to maintain his power, and at war 48% of the voting electorate said: No, we do not agree. The Repugs were so unsure of themselves that they had to resort to a lot of ballot box hanky panky. This is the way to go: Fight the good fight and stay at your level.
Don’t leave until the first concentration camp opens on American soil (Guantanamo is on Cuba). And if you do leave, remember: You can vote and write from wherever. I left. Long ago, during the Reagan Regime, which was stifling. I live happily in Europe, clean water, fresh air, great people with whom one can really discuss things pro and con, health insurance for my family, slow but fairly solid economies, public transportation, and liberal market economies. I still vote, thanks to the Web I keep in touch with what is happening in the world and in the US. Life here has got some drawbacks, but on balance… it’s better. And if the neocons pass legislation saying that only those who live in the USA can have a passport, I’ll give mine up and have as I stand the option to become a national of three countries. I really don’t care one way or another. Being born in one country or another does not make you a better or worse person a priori. Only the weak-kneed need to be patriots. But I digress.
Posted by Talleyrand on Nov 4, 2004 at 2:27 AM Let us not forget that McGovern, the anti-war candidate of the Democratic Party, lost to Nixon in 1972. But the anti-war movement gained greater momentum, and, thus, succeeded in undermining the US imperialist project, particularly with regard to Vietnam.
I think that the prospects of Bush in his second term will be even worse than those of Nixon. Bush and his neocons will now have to face all the catastrophic consequences of their policies and actions--the Iraq quagmire, government bankruptcy, a worsening economy, environmental degradation, and social decay. When the chickens come home to roost, America will be jolted out of its rightwing hypnotic trance.
My gut feeling is that the peace and social justice movement will become stronger--both in the U.S. and in the world.
Posted by Poyong on Nov 4, 2004 at 7:44 AM I don’t care if their rich or poor.
FDR gave us the NEW DEAL, and set the stage for the type of TRUE COMPASSIONATE programs that provided and still provides today (God help us) a safety net for the poor, unemployed and aged.
JFK STARTED the world down the road (since lost) toward limiting nuclear weapons. Yes, he gave us the Bay of Pigs (and TOOK FULL RESPONSIBILITY FOR IT), but he also saw the nation thru the Cuban Missile Crisis, without having to fire a shot. His only fault was not living long enuf to finish the good work he started. It can’t be proven, but I believe, it WAS his goal to end the Viet Nam war. His record on civil rights ins UNQUESTIONED. And although he too was a RICH PERSON, he made true EFFORT to understand, and seemed to really appreciate, the plight of the disenfranchised.
THAT is true compassion.
These men not only talked the talk, they walked the walk.
Posted by Liberal and Proud on Nov 4, 2004 at 11:38 AM If I had to make one “correction” to Mr. Vidal’s thesis, it would be this.
He speaks of the United States of Amnesia, in the sense that we don’t learn because we don’t remember. The more recent, and frightening phenomenon is that we’re not taught much to begin with! There clearly is a covert war against public education. How else to explain that schools now must cut athletic and arts programs because they don’t have enough money?
Moreover, even in the well-regarded school system I was taught in back in the ‘80’s , our history classes never even taught us about WWII, much less Vietnam!! And it’s getting worse all the time. Go into any retail store, and see the look on a youngster’s face if you give him/her $22 for an item that costs $17. The dumbing down of America is in full throttle, and it absolutely benefits the ruling party. When people know nothing to the contrary, they accept the lies presented to them as rock solid truth.
It may be devious, but it’s working like a charm. I think the results of 11/2 are testament to that.
Posted by scott on Nov 4, 2004 at 12:18 PM Gore Vidal’s Book entitled “The Messiah” comes to mind when I consider how the religious right has so much power in this country.
Posted by BAM on Nov 4, 2004 at 12:23 PM on the republican forums, they are now gleefully talking about “who should we invade next?”
oh, if only you would invade yourselves
Posted by pugiugiug on Nov 4, 2004 at 12:51 PM Up here in Canada we’ve had this discussion of the “Two Solitudes” (French and English) for many years. It now appears that the states will have to come to terms with the fact that you as well have two solitudes (rural and urban) Rural seems be be quite insular and self-interested while the urban is the opposite.
and there’s more backwards hicks than smart young people voting it seems.
GOD, I CAN’T BELIEVE HOW ROYALLY THEY FCKED EVERYTHING UP!!! I MEAN THERE WAS NOT ONE..ONE THING THAT BUSH DID THAT COULD BE CONSIDERED A SUCCESS...HE FCKED UP EVERYTHING HE TOUCHED!!!
But hey, ain’t no fags gonna get married on his watch!!
and how could the catholic clergy support Bush over Kerry? I mean C’mon!! Isn’t all life sacred? Including Iraqi and Afghani and Iranian life?
*still shocked and awed*
Posted by neil on Nov 4, 2004 at 2:54 PM Abe Lincoln should’ve added another sentence to
his famous speech:
You can fool most of the people most of the time. (With the help of the media and other
cocksuckers.)
Posted by norman wishner on Nov 4, 2004 at 4:12 PM The scary thing--there are so many scary things now--but one is what Tocqueville, the French diplomat who knew Thomas Jefferson personally, identified as the “tyranny of the majority” in American society. Watching the RNC gave me chills. Like Arhundati Roy said, they were like a bunch of euphoric barbie dolls sharing one brain. We really must beware of these sheep, particularly the ones who think they have God on their side and are therefore capable of anything, who can easily be turned into bloodthirsty witch-hunters. Humans seem intent on exterminating each other. Always have. I know this seems alarmist, but we should not count ourselves, Americans, as immune to this dark and bloody side that can be triggered in humans when groupthink is so prevalent. I’m just especially worried about that now. For Muslims, for gay people, who would be next… Anyway, I’m encouraging those of you, who like myself never wanted a gun--never wanted to be around guns--to get a gun. What do you think?
Posted by xia on Nov 4, 2004 at 6:37 PM “xia”
I would not advise getting a gun, or feeling as though you really need one, as frightening as some of the rhetoric has been from some with “red state mentality”.
This mood, this despairing, this nightmare, has a science fiction feel to it, but we must take heart in the knowing that 48% of the country (by the last count) could see the forest for the trees.
There probably wont be crosses burning in our yards and nightly raids by a gang of angry white men in sheets banging on our doors.I agree with the proposition that Democrats must nominate somebody that can appeal to these “red state” people. But, is a candidate supposed to compromise all their beliefs to pander towards an “ignorant” class of voter? Say what you will about any faults to be found in Kerry he was far and away a superior individual and more qualified to lead us in the 21st century than Bush regardless of the vote count.
The bigger issue is how do we educate people to be able to reason and understand reality and vote for the common good and not the narrow single issue that motivates many of them to vote at all.We “elitist” liberal Democrats need to keep the faith and the belief that wisdom will prevail over ignorance, tolerance will replace intolerance, that (yes) love will triumph over hate, and the light will shine out of the darkness, we will see better days; I can only hope for many of us, that it’s in our life times.
If you need to arm yourself, do it with information, arm your self with the strength of your convictions, believe that you are not alone in this struggle, no one needs to die. Hate must be defeated. Republicans are not the enemy, IGNORANCE is the enemy. The Republicans are better at exploiting that ignorance. We should not give into their attempts to control education and subjugate the working classes and the poor. We need to unite in our desire to make things right.
Don’t give up the fight and don’t let others give up. To use an apropos cliche, “united we stand, divided we fall"…
Al the best.
Posted by BAM on Nov 4, 2004 at 8:36 PM The diabolical Diebold determiner? Sounds like a “B” science fiction movie starring the governor of California, but consider the following, although I haven’t thought it completely through it has a salient science fiction quality to it.
Alright, recall the controversy regarding the touch screen voting machines and the lack of a paper trail...of course we all do. Recall the discrepancies (in 2000) between the exit polling in Florida, the subsequent forecast by the media for Gore, and then of course how many ballots were not counted. Well, on C-SPAN last night a mathematician suggested that, with consideration of what the inventor of the Diebold machine had promised the president, that they would get him Ohio, that, it’s possible that the machines were rigged (similar to the way slot machines are rigged for the house) to discount periodically X number of votes for Sen Kerry. The mathematician brought it up because in her mind the numbers didn’t add up. So, she said perhaps that the exit polling may not have been incorrect but the count was!
Something to think about huh? At least it’s one of the better conspiracy theories I’ve ever heard. Not only is it possible but considering everything, also plausable.
In a press conference yesterday the president now seems to be saying - “no more Mr. nice guy” and bullied the press and did not sound conciliatory at all. The uniter of 2000 is not running for reelection now, so it’s full bore ahead,with his right wing agenda - because he received his mandate!
Good new day y’all…
Posted by BAM on Nov 5, 2004 at 6:15 AM Don’t you guys think you are over dramztizing this? OK, so your guy lost, big deal! in 4 years there will be another election and then again, etc etc.
Take a chill pill. Relax. The pendulum swings both ways in its own time.
Last and certainly not least. Try not to stereotype the red states in such a simple minded fashion. It is just as bad as saying that the blacks voted for Kerry because they are dumb and just want government handouts. It sheds no light on the subject - worse if really obfuscates the political realities of today.
Posted by howDramtic on Nov 5, 2004 at 8:04 AM Sure, Jim, fight on, through sixteen or twenty-seven fragmented parties on the Left, Nader heading one, you heading another, a Native American heading a third, a gay heading a fourth, plus the Greens, and on and on. That looks like a real winning strategy. Hell, the Republicans will even finance your parties.
Posted by Hugh on Nov 5, 2004 at 4:35 PM Boy no wonder you all lost! What a bunch of snively turds you are. You take the rantings of a psychotic drunken little turd of a fag like this as truth. No wonder you lost. My only regret is that Mr. Bush cannot run again but maybe Ashcroft will run in ‘08 and then you can really meltdown. What a bunch of nutjobs you all are.
Posted by fourmore on Nov 8, 2004 at 7:52 PM I am ashamed of my state, I am ashamed of my city, Columbus, I am ashamed of my country.
I was one of the mindless majority that became a minorty over corruption and technology that thought the ideals of our founding fathers would instill a new direction. I forgot that Kerry was not that direction. I agree with the comments on Karma, and I agree, whatever you call God needs to help America, or, maybe we should stop looking for some great force to fix us and begin fixing ourselves.
I am not a young man. I am not an old man. I am an individual that has spent most of his life fighting for what he believes in. I also voted for the first time since Jimmy Carter. I loved Jimmy Carter and still respect him. He is a good man. Good men do not make effective presidents. Corrupt men, men of greed and power make effective presidents, or at least, that is what we are being told. I have spent my life writing and I have never been so ashamed of our news and media.
I believe with all my heart that we must rise from our defeat and we must fight to regain what is the United States of Amerika. (My own personal way of spelling it).
Karma is upon us but as any Buddhist will tell you, Karma is a lesson and lessons can only be learned if you participate in the teaching. Change Karma, create a new direction.
Of course, The United States of Canada is also an option. But alas, being a red state, and one of the the reddest, I would surely have to move.
Posted by Mikal Peace on Nov 19, 2004 at 8:53 AM Page 1 of 1 pages -
register a new account »Posting Security
Posted by Talleyrand on Nov 4, 2004 at 9:32 AM Also by Emily Udell
- Selling Out Grandma
- Dark Side of Russias Rainbow
Despite political, legal and religious pressures, Nikolai Alexeyev has worked to combat prejudice and secure legal and political protections for Russia's lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender community - Putting the IRS to Political Use?
- Yes
- Vagabond
- Safe Area Gorazde
Popular Discussions
- The 9/11 Faith Movement
Many Americans believe 9/11 was a conspiracy by the U.S. government
1968 posts since Jul 11 06 - What’s the 411 on 9/11?
891 posts since Dec 21 05 - Democrats: It’s the War
659 posts since Nov 1 05 - Was the Presidential Election Stolen?
459 posts since Jun 19 06 - A Fundamental History Lesson
The rise of National Socialism proved politics and religion don't mix
426 posts since Oct 10 05
© 2004 In These Times | Reprint Policy | Privacy Policy | Powered by Expression Engine | RSS Feeds
