Beyond God, Guns and Gays

The democrats have waited too long to determine their religious strategy in America.  Especially when religion is now the Republican version of labor unions how ever unethical it is.

Posted by Dan on Nov 4, 2004 at 3:38 PM

I’m always hearing elitists sneer at Bush for being a religious fundamentalist but have never heard anyone cite any fundamentalist convictions.  I’m no expert on the man’s religion, but can anyone explain to me what makes him a fundamentalist?

Posted by JDF on Nov 4, 2004 at 4:17 PM

President Bush has announced his plan to select Dr. W. David Hager to head the Food and Drug Administration’s (FDA) Reproductive Health Drugs
Advisory Committee.

The committee has not met for more than two years, during which time its charter lapsed. As a result, the Bush Administration is tasked with
filling all eleven positions with new members. These positions do not require Congressional approval.

The FDA’s Reproductive Health Drugs Advisory Committee makes crucial decisions on matters relating to drugs used in the
practice of obstetrics, gynecology and related specialties,including hormone therapy, contraception, treatment for infertility, and
medical alternatives to surgical procedures for sterilization and pregnancy termination.

Dr. Hager is the author of “As Jesus Cared for Women: Restoring Women Then and Now.” The book blends biblical accounts of Jesus healing women
with case studies from Hager’s practice. His views of reproductive health care are far outside the mainstream. Dr. Hager is a practicing
OB/GYN who describes himself as “pro-life” and refuses to prescribe contraceptives to unmarried women.

In the book Dr. Hager wrote with his wife, entitled “Stress and the Woman’s Body,” he suggests that women who suffer from
premenstrual syndrome should seek help from reading the Bible and
praying. As an editor and contributing author of “The Reproduction Revolution: A Christian Appraisal of Sexuality, Reproductive Technologies and the Family,” Dr. Hager appears to have endorsed the medically inaccurate
assertion that the common birth control pill is an abortifacient.

Posted by JS on Nov 4, 2004 at 4:56 PM

JS, do you have a source for that or am I just supposed to trust you?

Posted by JDF on Nov 4, 2004 at 5:39 PM

JS actually seems to have listed a number of titles of books and articles.  You clearly don’t have to trust him.  This is not exactly a unique example.  Are you just sitting down today to research the kind of president we are dealing with?  Good timing.

Posted by GrayArea on Nov 4, 2004 at 5:55 PM

As a follower of Christ and His Truth—as given to us in His ‘Sermon on the Mount’—, I never use the term ‘Born-again Christian’ because the meaning of these words has been profaned by too many who use it only to intimidate others, to present a public image of moral superiority and TO GET VOTES!  It is truly sad to see the millions of good people who have been thoroughly brainwashed by these ‘Christian’ demagogues.  Christ Hinself identified the latter as the Scribes and the Pharisees—those literalists who have no understanding beyond the written word—as they interpret it.  Sad to say, they are still with us in the year 2004—and stronger than ever!

In order to gain earthly power for themselves, these ‘Christians’ have sold themselves AND their churches to the evil-doers in our government.  Jesus said of His followers:  By their fruits ye shall know them.  And what are the fruits of these ‘Christian’ leaders?  The election to our highest political office of a warmonger of the highest degree!

We once had a REAL born-again Christian in this same office and these very ‘Christians’ hated him because he WAS the real thing! We all know who this man is and what his fruits are!

Anyone who truly wants to follow Christ should study long and carefully His words in Matthew 5, 6 and 7.  Of course, we have no way of knowing if these are the EXACT words of Christ but it matters not—the Spirit comes through loud and clear!

Yes, I voted for Mr. Kerry, but only because I knew that Ralph Nader and others had no chance whatsoever of winning, and virtually anyone was a lesser evil than Bush!

In conclusion, I can only say: May God help our country!

Posted by E. C. Roy on Nov 4, 2004 at 6:18 PM

Here, here E.C. Roy,

My life-long friend, a Baptist, was so opposed to bush (only human beings deserve capital letters) he ended up leaving his church to become a Mennonite.
I don’t think it’s written anywhere in any bible a government should attack a nation based on lies. Uhm, correct me if I’m wrong, lying is a sin, isn’t it?

As far as abortion, between 1995-2000, the abortion rate dropped 22%, the only time since Roe v Wade that it dropped. From 2000-2003, the rate climbed so fast and so quickly that it is now 5% higher than in 1992, when Clinton took office. Yet the Republican party is the pro-life party?? And those statistics are from the Fuller Theological Seminary - a respected conservative evangelical seminary.

It’s a very sad day when the Rebublican 4th Reich will focus on bringing prayer back to school while giving the middle finger to the homeless and jobless in our country, offering only the alternative of being a professional murderer in bush’s dillusional, paranoid crusade against what he claims are “rogue” nations.
To say nothing of the fact that all his invasion of Iraq did was cause the other “evil nations” to realize, hell, we’d better get some nukes in a big hurry if we don’t want this crazy luntatic invading us.
THEY KNEW the inspection process in Iraq had worked. They KNEW that Iraq had been weakened enough that it couldn’t defend itself. They KNEW they could just roll right in. AND THEY STILL BOTHCHED IT! Twelve years of disarming the country, and bush still was able to screw it up enough to turn it into a quagmire that is going to tie up this country for at least 20 years. What this has in common with all his other business failures is he didn’t care about the lives he affected then and cares even less today as the US death toll is over 1000 and rising. The Iraqi civilians aren’t real people, anyway, right?
This is a just, religious man??!! God has placed him there as those fundmanetalist wackos would have you believe?!!
No, there is little difference between a fundamentalist Christian and a fundamentalist Muslim. Ignorance, hatred, fear, paranoia, irrationality, unwillingness to listen to facts or reason are common traits they share.

Keep up the fight and we’ll bring the Republic back. But for now, democracy is dead.

Posted by Neil on Nov 4, 2004 at 6:58 PM

Enough talk!  What are we going to DO already?

The 2002 Congressional and gubernatorial and other elections are less than two years away.  What are we going to do?

What are we going to do to defend ourselves from illegal civil liberties depredations?

From hate crimes?

Come on, ITT, The Nation, The Progressive, Michale Moore, etc…provide some leadership! 

What is to be done?

Posted by Joel Walsh on Nov 4, 2004 at 8:03 PM

Oops.  2002=2006.

Posted by Joel Walsh on Nov 4, 2004 at 8:04 PM

The religious right can have George Bush.  They deserve him.  As for me, I’ll go along with this editorial that states:

NO, GEORGE, YOU WILL NOT BE MY PRESIDENT!
http://www.tvnewslies.org/html/no__george__you_will_never_be_.html

Posted by Reg on Nov 4, 2004 at 8:36 PM

The Democrats and the left in general have let the right-wing fundamentalist stake a claim as the sole proprietors and authorities on Christianity, when we all know that their behavior is far from what Christianity teaches (Jesus would’ve surely been branded a bleeding heart commie by the Falwells and Robertsons of the world!).

The left has an impressive history of religious activism (including the civil rights movement, philanthropic endeavors, etc.) that shouldn’t be relegated to the sidelines.  The left has always cast a wider net of inclusion, so one religion (or no religion at all) has taken center stage as a rallying point, but the left should never let the religious challenge go unanswered.

Progressives need to challenge the evangelicals on their faith.  True, people get testy when you question their religion, but they can’t possibly claim to be following Jesus’ teachings based on their aversion to anything Jesus stood for.  I’m not a Christian, but I know enough about it to know that progressives have a far better understanding of it than rightists do.

Posted by pheromone 7.1 on Nov 4, 2004 at 9:33 PM

I wish people would see the truth.  Religion is a fairy tale spun to calm the minds of the masses.  I mean, is there anyone here that can honestly claim to have witnessed “A Miracle!!!”.  Seen God?  Even spoken to him/her?  I hope not, because if you have, you are likely to have a serious mental illness or severe drug problems and I wouldn’t wish either on anyone. 

Get over it, Jesus doesn’t exist.  Neither does God.  They’re just grownup versions of the tooth fairy.  The sooner everybody figures that one out, the sooner we can all forget our petty little differences and get on with our lives.  In Peace.

Posted by notweny on Nov 4, 2004 at 10:01 PM

We once had a REAL born-again Christian in this same office and these very ‘Christians’ hated him because he WAS the real thing! We all know who this man is and what his fruits are!

I’m sorry but who?

Posted by cmm on Nov 4, 2004 at 10:49 PM

I’d say he was referring to Jimmy Carter, who, despite what is generally perceived as an unsuccessful presidency, is a respected voice for reason, moderacy (If there is such a word…. I mean moderate views and politics.) and human rights in many parts of the world today.

Posted by Ben on Nov 4, 2004 at 11:25 PM

I write from a chatolic country, where fortunately religion is loosing more and more power in politics in favour of civil rights, and I deem it is a positive process
why are you americans goiing the opposite way? what has religion to do with leading of a nation? shouldn’t it be a personal/spiritual matter?
you risk to put yourselves on the same level as Khomeini’s Iran….

Posted by fabio on Nov 5, 2004 at 1:57 AM

Yes, Ben: Carter was one of the finest presidents we had representing the USA in the past 40 years. He also lived true Christian values of self-reflection, of tolerance, of moderation. He reviled human rights abuses and believed that the way ahead lay in conserving resources and protecting the environment. He was replaced by another sort of born-againer, who believed in ignoring human rights abuses in countries allegedly our allies, in laying open our planet to the bulldozers of mega-corporations, in threatening and bullying. Reagan, Bush 41, 43 were frauds.  And we can rest assured: History will judge them as such. Their economic programs were and are a kind of wizard oil that would have gotten them tarred and feathered in any of those western, mid-western and southern jerkwater towns who are now gungho for them… It’s all in the packaging. In history there is always a swinging pendulum, and in physics that pendulum will swing wide one way and wide the other.

Posted by Talleyrand on Nov 5, 2004 at 2:18 AM

President Carter is more representative of what a decent Christan man is, and a great human being
that just happened to be dealt a bad hand with the Iran hostage crisis and the gasoline prices. Remenber that he didn’t invade Iran and no blood was shed because he was above all else a thoughtful and compassionate man who valued life above any ideological goals. Unlike our current
shining example of the neo-Christian intolerant “compassionate conservative” that we’re stuck with now!

Posted by abs on Nov 5, 2004 at 5:33 AM

A great job done by the heartland of America.

Keep voting in the interest of the huge corporate conglomerates.

That way when you find your farm swallowed up by Archer-Daniels Midland and the other agri-giants, and you have to now go to work for THEM and get paid at the same minimum wage as your grandfather, and watch your children and grand children sent off to war to defend “freedom” for multi millionaires hiding out in the Texas national guard, and then retire with no safety net…they can wrap your coffin in the American flag as they lower you into a potter’s field.

Posted by LIBERAL AND PROUD on Nov 5, 2004 at 6:23 AM

A little patience, and we shall see the reign of witches pass over, their spells dissolve, and the people, recovering their true sight, restore their government to its true principles.  It is true that in the meantime we are suffering deeply in spirit, and incurring the horrors of a war and long oppressions of enormous public debt…...  If the game runs sometimes against us at home we must have patience till luck turns, and then we shall have an opportunity of winning back the principles we have lost, for this is a game where principles are at stake.

Thomas Jefferson, 1798

The Revolution Starts NOW!

Posted by DM on Nov 5, 2004 at 6:52 AM

All your comments are good ( except the athiest ).I am a lover of Jesus and proud of it. I am a Patriot and proud of it. But my country is no longer mine. We the people no longer exists. Years ago I remember all the horror stories of Russia, how they wanted to kill us just because of who we were. How they control thier people by social controls like government controled media. They had thier people hating us by only allowing thier people to hear or see one side of world issues, THIERS. We were well informed back then or at least we thought we were. Now I wonder just who was really being control back then. It’s easy to see who is being controled today. Thank You All and May God Bless.

Posted by Stephen Holbert on Nov 5, 2004 at 7:14 AM

The reason why Bush wins the evangelical vote is so very simple. Not because he goes to church. Not because he is such a moral man. But because he opposes abortion, which most evangelicals consider murder of the unborn.

Someone above asked if anyone here has seen a miricle. I dare say we all have, but take them for granted they are so very common. I witnessed the birth of my children - new life coming forth into this world. Later seeing the completion of the cycle whem my father died. Tress growing out to the *dirt*. Compared to these things, walking on water is just a parlor trick.

I know that is is human nature to villionize those you don’t understand (obviously the reason Bush won is still a mystery to most of you). But even while thinking how fractious this election was, remember how much *worse* it was for our foundig fathers. If you have trouble understanding this, think of Hamilton and Burr. .  .

Have fun and thoughtful days.

Posted by justMyOpinion on Nov 5, 2004 at 7:27 AM

Mr. Holbert,
What is wrong of being atheist? This is also a kind of believe, is it not?
Let me tell you a story. I was going to USA for a scientific conference. By origin I am a Bulgarian who lives now in Holland. If you open the CIA page and look for Bulgaria you will see the following:
Ethnic groups: Bulgarian 83.9%, Turk 9.4%, Roma 4.7%, other 2% (including Macedonian, Armenian, Tatar, Caucasian) (2001)

Religions: Bulgarian Orthodox 82.6%, Muslim 12.2%, Roman Catholic 1.7%, Jewish 0.1%, Protestant, Gregorian-Armenian, and other 3.4% (1998)

You can conclude that almost every Bulgarian is Orthodox Christian. This is totally wrong.  90% of the Bulgarians are atheist. Religion was not encouraged during the communist era so we manage to live without it and now we don’t see a reason to become believers again.
Now, the problem occurred while I was filling the form in order to get a visa for US. In the section “religion” I wrote “atheist”. The embassy officer looked at the form and said “You must not write this”
“Sorry, write what”
“That you are an atheist”
“But I am”
“If you want trouble go ahead, but I strongly advise you to fill any religion in the box. The dominant religion of your country for instance.”

We talk a bit more about it, but I really felt that this officer wanted to help me and save me trouble. In the end I decided not to go. My boss was not happy at all but in the Netherlands there is still tolerance among people, so at the end he agreed with me that I am a free person and nobody can make me lie about my believes. And my boss is one of the most true believers that I have ever seen in my life.
I have red quite a bit about world religions and myths and what I have noticed is that every major religion, especially Christianity and Muslim have prepared the deepest hole in the Hell for the non-believers. If there is something that most religions hate that is atheism. And I got to wander why. Because I am not open for their preaching and brainwashing? Not manipulative enough perhaps? Dangerous? Why?
I don’t know but I think that such problems should not exist in a world that claims to be “civilized”.
And apparently religion is a big issue in USA. No problem with that, of course, just let me be as I like too. I am a nice fellow.

And let me tell you a secret. Nobody ever hated America during the commie era. This is your propaganda lie.
We loved the free world. We wanted to be part of it. Our propaganda was so non-professional, so stupid that nobody believed it. Except a few lunatics that did not matter.
The more they were telling us that you are bad, imperialist, and killers the more we loved you, because we knew these were a lies. We loved your movies, we loved your music, we loved the statue of Liberty, we loved cowboys, and we even loved Regan. As a boy I have seen all the Rambo movies 10 times on pirate-type, bad translated VHS tapes. Much, much later I realized that these movies were propaganda against us, and I laugh deeply in my heart. Yes, the one where Rambo was helping the prototype of Osama Bin Laden to fight the evil Russians – I loved it.  It is of course terribly stupid propaganda s**t but I loved it at the time.
What really scares me today, when I live in the West, is that your propaganda machine is so effective that most of you believe it completely. As usual the West is the best - from making of flashbulbs to mass brainwashing.
And a piece of advice - do not allow the Russians to become a superpower again. They are the same imperialistic buggers like Bush and company but are smarter. This is very dangerous combination. Have you noticed how much Putin likes and supports Bush? Ever wander why?

Posted by Ivan on Nov 5, 2004 at 8:34 AM

Voting for Bush because he opposes abortion is a wasted vote. He cannot overturn Roe v. Wade. That’s like voting for Bush because he favors eliminating the “myth” (as it is called in the Republican Texas Party Platform - see their website for confirmation) of separation of Church and State. No doubt, he will work hard to subvert liberty to his religion but, in the end, we will still have our democracy and he will become the scourge of American History.

Claiming the higher moral ground because they value life is the height of deception and hypocrisy! If they value life, why is it that…

They place no value on the lives of our countrymen who were sent to Iraq to defend the motherland against the imminent danger of mushroom clouds in America. They give their lives for lies from the Oval Office. How shameful. Their amoral Commander In Chief had the effrontery to laugh about his lies, not even understanding the immense offense of mimicking the search for WMDs from within the safe confines of his heavily guarded office while our countrymen died while searching for non-existent WMDs. Where is your sense of decency, President Bush? Perhaps that is what you were really searching for under your desk.

They place no value on the lives of innocent Iraqi civilians - children, mothers, fathers, daughters, sons.

It’s not my religion, but I’m certain that their god Commanded that “Thou shalt not kill.” I’m equally certain their god did not asterisk the Command with *unless you think it’s a good idea or the other person is an infidel.

It’s not moral ground they command; it’s just hypocritical propaganda. They’re eating their young through their attempts to pervert American Values.

Posted by ConstitutionIsMyBible on Nov 5, 2004 at 9:03 AM

One area where the Democrats need to get a clue is on Gun Control.  They bash the NRA all the time but the NRA is consistent in its ability to turn out voters.  I for one was willing to vote for Howard Dean because I agreed with most of his positions AND he had an NRA endorsement.  I heard what John Kerry was saying BUT I looked at his twenty year record and they were two different things.

As long as the Democratic party continues to believe that ever more restrictions on the private ownership of firearms, including the much demonized Assault Weapons, is a winning strategy for them, they will continue to be the minority party.  Enforcement of existing laws has been working quite well now.  I see that Harry Reid of Nevada is going to be the new Senate Minority leader.  So far, he appears to be a good indicator of what the Democrats should use as their role model in the future.

Posted by rgs on Nov 5, 2004 at 9:24 AM

One consolation in Kerry’s loss, is that the Republican party can’t spend all their (and our) time attempting to destroy him and blocking anything he attempted to do.
One voter for Bush that entered this site said that there was a move to try Kerry for treason.
We have somehow got to bring sanity back to politics!
How can we just accept any of this as the will of the people? Once the will of the people wanted to burn women for witchcraft, once the will of the people wanted to hang black people if they did anything considered to be an affront to white sensibilities. Now we have this thing about gays and they can refer to the bible to justify their intolerance!
The Matthew Shepard event (and others) is now going to multiply. Bigots, racists and misogynists
(religious or not) have been given the green light, that their hatred is more tolerated than the sinful activities of gay people, the sinful activities of women, and the gall of the dark-skinned people to try and be equal to the white man!
Watching this president with the election behind him stand at that lectern yesterday and bully the press was stunning. His words were frightening to me as a “liberal” thinking individual that should be rounded up and shot, if I’m to believe many of those Republican’s that have posted their thoughts!
I don’t want to give into the nightmare scenarios that are being felt by many of us but I see nothing that changes that fear!
Some of us will dismiss all of this as the poor losers syndrome, and rationalize that a lot of what Bush wants to do won’t happen; some I know, didn’t even vote and don’t give any thought at all to what’s happening!
 

Already you hear the pundits speculating about 2008. One line of thought suggests that a candidate from the Democratic party will have to be charismatic, intelligent, a believer in core values and probably from a southern state. Edwards seems to meet all the requirements, he has the ability to articulate and can “connect with people”..
Although many speculate about a run by Hillary Clinton, she is not, in my opinion a viable candidate. Don’t get me wrong, I love her but I just don’t think she would have the broad appeal, especially in those red states! A woman just will not be accepted as presidential timber in the current macho-male-dominated political environment. She is an effective senator and should stay there and represent NY and the interests of woman (and men) throughout the country. I can’t help but believe that if she were to run that all the Clinton bashing would resurface and we can’t go through that.
Edwards needs to now stay in the public eye through some high profile position and build a level of comfort with the American electorate up to the 2008 election campaign. (an Edwards/Dean ticket perhaps? And we can’t overlook Barak Obama as a VP candidate either)
Four years from now seems like an eternity, and just getting through the past few days has been a nightmare, but we have no choice!

Posted by BAM on Nov 5, 2004 at 9:52 AM

Forget Hillary.

She is UNELECTABLE. A northeastern, white woman. Don’t even bring up Arkansas. She is the Senator from NEW YAWK.

This is the real problem that Dems have. Even if they SOMEHOW can find a moderate in their ranks, (remember.. Bill Clinton was an outsider), the dramatic loss of governships and local elections in the South means that they have no viable farm system.

Senators are unelectable for the office of President. The best Presidents are typically former governors, they are CEO-types who have experience in running large complex bureacracies. Senators are salesman. Totally incapable of independent thought.

Posted by Liberal and Proud on Nov 5, 2004 at 10:29 AM

I don’t think we need to change our fundamental beliefs as Democrats in order to appeal to people who have religious faith.  I agree with the poster above who spoke of the true teachings of Jesus and the way the Left has been more consistent in following them.

Feed the hungry?  Clothe the naked?  Shelter the homeless?  Visit the prisoners?  Are these not Christian values, i.e., the values professed by Jesus?  Where are these values reflected in the Republican Party?

I think we just have to get our message out better, and make the gap between the Republicans’ words and their deeds that much clearer.  They’re a bunch of whited sepulchres, and I think if we could bring religious (and here I mean Christian) people to see that, I think the battle is halfway won.

Posted by Nora M on Nov 5, 2004 at 11:19 AM

No extremist group should be pandered to….including religious extremists.

The modern Democratic Party has always been based on one fundamental principle…FAIRNESS.

Be true to your beliefs.

Posted by Liberal and Proud on Nov 5, 2004 at 12:16 PM

I like Hillary. I like her gumption, she’s articulate, she’s got backbone, she’s got message.

But she won’t get elected. Americans United Against Uppity Women (aka Heartlanders) will turnout by the truckloads to vote against Hillary.

Posted by ConstitutionIsMyBible on Nov 5, 2004 at 12:47 PM

I’m so angry with the Christians who try to hijack our American Values and secular government that I have to take care not to brush all Christians with the same brush. Not all Christians discount the Constitution. Not all Christians think the separation of church and state is a myth. Not all Christians are terrified of gay people. Not all Christians believe their way is the only way. Not all Christians want a holy war with the Muslims. There is a much broader group of Christians who do know the American story and who do cherish American ideals.

Christians with American Values embrace pluralism and secular government. But why are they so silent?

Posted by ConstitutionIsMyBible on Nov 5, 2004 at 12:56 PM

Re: “Remenber [sic] that [Jimmy Carter] didn’t invade Iran and no blood was shed because he was above all else a thoughtful and compassionate man who valued life above any ideological goals.”

Yes, Carter’s dealings with Iran were great.  Especially when he decided to hang the Shah out to dry because Carter didn’t like him using military tribunals.  Good move, Jimbo, the people who overthrew him have been great.  Call Jimmy Carter thoughtful and compassionate all you want but the fact of the matter is that Jimmy Carter is a pussy.  If he had shown a little backbone we’d have an ally in Iran instead of nuclear-armed, terrorist-harboring enemy.

Posted by Ted on Nov 5, 2004 at 1:16 PM

Um.. anyone remember why the Shaw was running Iran?  I mean, do you really think that the mighty freedom-spreading-US should have overthrown Iran’s democratic government in order to protect the interests of Anglo-Iranian Oil?  Didn’t that sort of touch off our battle with islamic extremism in the first place?

I suppose a faith-based foreign policy means never having to admit a mistake, but it also means never being able to recover from one.

Posted by GrayArea on Nov 5, 2004 at 3:52 PM

I have listen to your Liberal doodlings trying with a open mind, for six months to understand all points of view, but I have to say in these times…....
are begging, always begging, paranoid, fachists that only want good folks to hear one side of any story.like michael moore       ( who I’m also emailed too( kiss my ass) you are not listening to the people. excuses for slackers, that use Oil everyday, which make you instant hypocrites, Take some responbliity, for your world!, my Prius is on the way

I especially hated you would let us see you fact( or lack of) until you extorted money.

I am a nature loving tree hugger that who never would anything hurt nature, repecting peoples property rights,any mail dissing George go straight to the recycle bin,

so in short, after much homework, all I dedeuce you guys are the
worst example for human beings, Please move to France where you can be socalists all you want,

Take your movie stars, musicians( who I will Boycott) with you!

Kiss my ass , the right party won Fair and square, GROW UP!!

Merlin

Ps I’m Being nice and will unsubscibe soon hahahahahahha!!!

and you will lose next time too, hahahahahahah

Posted by merlin on Nov 5, 2004 at 7:43 PM

Thanks for your comments, Ivan.  I find your thoughts about our country from the perspective of someone who grew up in the “commie era”, as you put it.  I agree with your assessment of religion.  It depresses me often to realize there are lots of people in my own country who hate me because I do not share their beliefs, yet I also want nothing more than to be allowed to believe how I like in peace, and they can do the same. 

As for the propaganda machine, your comments are very enlightening.  Even for an educated person like myself who likes to believe he can see through the fog, I occasionally get fooled.  Our propaganda is quite likely the most advanced in history, with the possible exception of Nazi Germany.

Posted by Neal on Nov 5, 2004 at 8:58 PM

Don’t fret, fellow liberals.  It is after all a big world.  There are many places to go that are far better than this.  The problem is that most of you have likely never been out of America to see them.  Only 15 percent of you even have a passport.  If you are a liberal in a blue state, I suggest you leave this place.  Just let the rednecks have it.  It’ll be interesting to see whether they blow themselves to oblivion or run out of money first.  After all, the blue states are the breadwinners of America.  We pay higher taxes which are then sent to these Southern Confederalists to pay for their pickups, booze, guns and ammo.  God knows they don’t use them for contraceptives, ‘cause that’s anti-inbreeding.  Family values and all that. 

I can hardly believe I share a country with these imbeciles.  Well, may this be a lesson to the world.  This is what happens when a nation neglects educating its people.  Schools should be free and available to all. 

If these poor idiots had access to education, I’m sure we’d all be better off.  I refuse to believe the Southerners have a genetic disposition towards ignorance, even factoring in generations of inbreeding.  Surely it has to do with their social circumstances.  We should start an education trust fund.  Figure out a program of incentives to get teachers interested in going to the Red states and spread some enlightenment. Sort of a domestic Peace Corps.  These poor souls need all the help they can get.  They’re ruining the fun for the rest of us.

Posted by notweny on Nov 5, 2004 at 9:08 PM

Why merlin…  I can’t believe it.  Wow.  How could I have been so utterly ignorant?  You have finally convinced me that you are right and that we have all been wrong.  Now that I see the light it is so clear to me now that fascism isn’t about nationalism and totalitarianism at all.

The real fascists must be the ones who keep trying to prevent individuals from freely relinquishing their rights and the rights of others for the good of the state.  We must do everything we can to oppose these fascists so that this righteous nation can consolidate its power and take the place it deserves - in charge of the whole world.

Your gracious and eloquent words will live on as an inspiration to all those who will look upon this page.  I only hope that it continues to enlighten.

Posted by GrayArea on Nov 5, 2004 at 9:12 PM

To Ivan, read the comments of notweny. My comments were directed towards his comments, not his or your belief or disbelief.

Posted by Stephen Holbert on Nov 6, 2004 at 6:07 AM

To notweny:

As a Southerner, a Christian, a Democrat, and with clearly a higher education level than yourself, I find your post to be uninformed and quite childish. You continue to show your ignorance by stating various stereotypes with no foundation.

We pay our taxes. We send our children to school. We have good colleges and universities and we don’t all drive around in pickup trucks, shoot deer, and get drunk. If you take a good look at the “red” states, you will find that in most, over 40% of those who voted did not vote for Mr. Bush.

What we have here is a situation where the Conservatives recognized something very basic that Progressived did not - if the political game is a race then it is a marathon relay race, not a 100-meter dash. We must now come to grips with our own failure to see this and start organizing ourselves and training ourselves for the race.
1. We must get the facts straight. Republicans may be able to win with all the facts against them, But you can be damn sure Democrats can’t.
2. Learn to LISTEN. If we will listen to the people, we can learn a great deal about what they are thinking. Then we can use those Facts from step 1 to present to them a reasonable alternative.

Posted by JohnnyBravo on Nov 6, 2004 at 7:41 AM

It’s easy to see why GrayArea did a complete 180; that was quite an impressive epistle from Merlin! I was especially touched by his fervent pleas that everyone k—- his a—!!!  I, however, am slightly more steadfast in my values and beliefs and would prefer to see a little more corroborating evidence before I take the plunge.

And to all who may have wondered, yes, of course I was referring to Jimmy Carter in my first posting.  I consider him the finest, most decent and honorable man ever to grace the office of the Presidency (at least in my lifetime) as well as one of the worthiest recipients of the Nobel Peace Prize, which he was awarded last year.  It is really a sad commentary on the American people that they were so quick to turn on him in favor of The Great Deciever.  Mr. Carter had a world view, which the majority of Americans do not seem able to comprehend; they prefer to have a President who will lie to us, tell us how great and moral we are and how we have some kind of divine right to rule the world!  And of course that is exactly what we have now in the person of King George II.  Well, it is said that we get the government we deserve and I suppose we have it.

Being a follower of Christ, I refuse to give up on my country; I continue to pray for the conversion of Mr. Bush and our elected officials, all the talk-radio demagogues (who are responsible in no small way for the present state of our country) and for all of our brothers and sisters, that they will one day soon open their eyes and let the Light shine in!

May God bless and help us all, Christians, Jews,
Muslims, Buddhists, atheists and others and bring us to an understanding of our common humanity.

Posted by e'Claire (The writer formerly known as E. C. Roy) on Nov 6, 2004 at 2:00 PM

e’Claire,

I agree that Carter was a great man. I suspect he was simply too far ahead of his time. Bigotry and fear continue to trump tolerance and reason. Maybe in another few decades we’ll be ready…

Posted by Spectral on Nov 6, 2004 at 5:54 PM

The Bushies were elected for another term because their media machine did an excellent job of scaring the hell out of people.

And in getting the evangelicals worked up enough on gay marriage that they turned out en masse.

Using religion like a sledgehammer and not as an soothing balm can have unforseen consequences.

Take the following quiz about leaders who use god as a campaign advisor:

Has the Bush White House injected religion into politics on an unprecedented scale or has
another leader of a Western nation, in the past, sought to portray himself close to God?
The following quotes are either from President Bush or the other leader.  See if you can
correctly identify who said what.

1.“I trust God speaks through me. Without that, I couldn’t do my job.” 

2. “But there is something else I believe, and that is that there is a God. . . . And this God
again has blessed our efforts during the past years.”                                             
         
3. “God told me to strike at [our enemy] and I struck them, and then he instructed me to
strike at [their leader], which I did . . .”

4. “I would like to thank Providence and the Almighty for choosing me of all people to be
allowed to wage this battle.” 
         
The correct answers are: Number 1 & 3 are quotes from President Bush and 2 & 4 are quotes
of deceased Nazi Fuhrer Adolf Hitler.

Several thousand years ago, didn’t a kind and wise man warn us to beware of wolves in
sheep’s clothing?

Posted by Greg Bacon on Nov 6, 2004 at 11:57 PM

You know it’s really funny & pathetic to hear all the “progressives” whine, bitch, snivel and rant.You STILL don’t get it! America is tired of your wacked out condescending hate filled rants and the Michael Moores that love them. YOU are out of touch with the real America. Come down from your ivory towers and Hollywood and get real.  Quit fosterig the hateful diatribes that anyone who is not for gay marriage and such is a bigot. Quit living in your mind and see the real world. You will never win in this country until you come down to reality and MORALITY.

Posted by Red State on Nov 7, 2004 at 6:59 AM

Morality?

Abu Ghraib?—US gov’t sanctioned torture.

Guantanamo Bay?—An American Soviet-style prison camp.

THAT is the morality of the Republican Party.—Wretched hypocrisy!

Posted by Ben on Nov 7, 2004 at 10:38 PM

Ben,

You don’t understand. The morality of the GOP only applies to like-minded Americans. Everyone else be damned. It’s not, “Though shall not kill.” It’s, “Though shall not kill Americans.” Open season on everyone else…..

Posted by Spectral on Nov 7, 2004 at 11:41 PM

unfortunately there is nothing to laugh about, but really red state you have got a funny concept of morality if you think that republicans reflects the real moral values
instead of watching the tip of your feet, take a wide look around and realize how immoral the last 4 years of bush administration have been, and how much stronger the immorality will grow now that he gained the arrogance of a second mandate

Posted by fabio on Nov 8, 2004 at 1:03 AM

Morality is the key issue and you STILL don’t get it and never will. The majority of America is red state. In 11 states voters rejected the gay agenda to redefine marriage. Look nobody is trying to deny gays the right to live or love but they will not allow the far left to change the defenition of marriage to suit their radical agenda. The second ammendment is enshrined to allow people their right to self defense. That will not change EVER. The left makes fun of the people who believe in God and faith. Listen I know for years I was a democrat and Believed in a lot of the things you do. But somewhere along the line I got disillusioned with the takeover by the Michael Mooore- Streisand- Kennedy wing of the party. The absolute condescention, snootiness and self righteous pomposity of the far left was making me sick…so I started looking at the “other side” to see what was up and you know what I found? Good people! that’s right. People who were tired of being put down by rich left wing wackos who knew (or cared) little for thier lives, their families or beliefs. Maybe you should try really seeing what’s going on. You on the left always say you pride yourselves on an open mind well how about really practicing what you preach.

Posted by red state on Nov 8, 2004 at 4:37 AM

Jimmy was/is a great human being, but sorry… his presidency sucked. Big time.

Posted by g-love on Nov 8, 2004 at 12:34 PM

All Christians should read Matthew 6 and then think about Bush.

Posted by Jeffrey Harrison on Nov 8, 2004 at 5:14 PM

You write:

“Bush beat John Kerry in all religious categories except among Jews…”

This is not true. Almost 100% of the Muslim vote went to Kerry—a more overwhelming show of support for Kerry (or opposition to Bush) than any other religious group in America.

Posted by John Janney on Nov 8, 2004 at 7:07 PM

Yep four out of five terrorists approve(d) of Kerry. He would help keep America safe FOR terrorists. Hey we gotta have terrorists right? I mean the liberal view of “diversity” is all encompassing. Even terrorists have rights too and Mr Kerry would have preserved them. He probably would have put some of them in his cabinet. his wife could have served them beer and Ketchup and called us idiot scumbags for wanting to defend America….ah the wackness never ends with you silly liberals…..

Posted by redstate on Nov 8, 2004 at 7:18 PM

redstate,

Muslims make up 1/5th of the world’s population. Over 7 million Americans call themselves Muslim.

If every Muslim was a terrorist, as you suggest, then you would have long been dead an unable to type your simple-minded and tremendously stupid comment.

Bigotry is never logical.

Posted by John Janney on Nov 8, 2004 at 7:41 PM

Hey JohnnyBravo

with full respect for your mental chops, honed at whatever cornpone college you attended, let me serve you up some more sweeping statements to swallow with your southern discomfort.

The mere fact you can operate a computer and string a few words together to form a sentence already puts you ahead of the pack.  You’ve even managed to use some of “them fancy words”, which are hard to say while chewing tobacco. Wait.  Don’t be angry just yet. Take a deep breath before you start speaking in tongues, because you should feel special.  You are that rarest of breeds indeed.  A southerner with brains. 

(Actually, y’all have brains, but most of you ‘elect’ not to use them.) 

The majority of you snake handling homophobes put a religious fanatic with a mean streak in charge of the world for the next 4 years.  As if that weren’t bad enough, you voted heavily against your own interest while you were at it.  What does that tell you? It makes me think of a lot of things, but none of them is has anything to do with liberal application of intellect.  No, the facts speak for themselves.  The South put a madman in charge.  It is your fault.  We should be honest about it.  Unless of course there was massive election fraud, in which case I shall retract all my vitriol and will once more gaze soutwards with my rose tinted glasses, which have been put in storage as of last wednesday.

Secede I say.  Let the South go, there is nothing there for us to be had, not even good company. Let these fools go back in time to a simpler, happier life.  Just make sure we bring all the “coloreds” North before we close the borders.

Posted by notweny on Nov 8, 2004 at 7:41 PM

Red State,

I’m not rich enough to be a rich left-wing wacko — I work a minimum wage job. It would have been against my economic interests for me to vote for Bush. Because of my income bracket, a tax cut will benefit me comparatively little. Offering some financial support to higher education so universities can begin hiring again would help me much more, and I don’t envision that happening under Bush.

Also, as a practicing Christian (United Church of Christ), I’d have to say it’s against my religious beliefs to vote for a man who presided as governor of Texas over an astonishing number of executions (including a mentally retarded person). I’m with the head of the National Council of Churches: for a nation as prosperous as the United States to be home to 45 million people without health insurance is a moral problem. And I’m not just saying that because I’m one of those uninsured folks.

Posted by Rachel on Nov 8, 2004 at 8:28 PM

wellnotweny… what do i say? It’s your holier than thou attitude that makes you and your ilk the big losers. Hypocrisy is the trademark of a liberal and you a shining example of the bigotry you say you hate. It’s ok to use epithets to describe white men…note merely ok but required in your little circle of “intelligensia” but your words demonstrate your true ignorance. Boy let anybody say ANYTHING about one of the protected species of your choice and y’all are off the wall with accusations of bigotry…that makes you a hypocrite and and a really sad one. I think this time you blue staters are the ones who need to seperate yourselves from the rest of the real America. We’ll come see you if we need crappy movies or a latte’.

Posted by redstate on Nov 9, 2004 at 5:16 AM

e’ Claire, as a follower of NOBODY, I think it is really silly that you would say “God bless atheists”. “God” can come over here and blow me. Yeah I think I understand humanity just fine. Thanx.

Posted by Doctress Julia on Nov 9, 2004 at 9:57 PM

Fuck the South. Fuck ‘em. We should have let them go when they wanted to leave. But no, we had to kill half a million people so they’d stay part of our special Union. Fighting for the right to keep slaves - yeah, those are states we want to keep.

And now what do we get? We’re the fucking Arrogant Northeast Liberal Elite? How about this for arrogant: the South is the Real America? The Authentic America. Really?

Cause we fucking founded this country, assholes. Those Founding Fathers you keep going on and on about? All that bullshit about what you think they meant by the Second Amendment giving you the right to keep your assault weapons in the glove compartment because you didn’t bother to read the first half of the fucking sentence? Who do you think those wig-wearing lacy-shirt sporting revolutionaries were? They were fucking blue-staters, dickhead. Boston? Philadelphia? New York? Hello? Think there might be a reason all the fucking monuments are up here in our backyard?

No, No. Get the fuck out. We’re not letting you visit the Liberty Bell and fucking Plymouth Rock anymore until you get over your real American selves and start respecting those other nine amendments. Who do you think those fucking stripes on the flag are for? Nine are for fucking blue states. And it would be 10 if those Vermonters had gotten their fucking Subarus together and broken off from New York a little earlier. Get it? We started this shit, so don’t get all uppity about how real you are you Johnny-come-lately “Oooooh I’ve been a state for almost a hundred years” dickheads. Fuck off.

Arrogant? You wanna talk about us Northeasterners being fucking arrogant? What’s more American than arrogance? Hmmm? Maybe horsies? I don’t think so. Arrogance is the fucking cornerstone of what it means to be American. And I wouldn’t be so fucking arrogant if I wasn’t paying for your fucking bridges, bitch.

All those Federal taxes you love to hate? It all comes from us and goes to you, so shut up and enjoy your fucking Tennessee Valley Authority electricity and your fancy highways that we paid for. And the next time Florida gets hit by a hurricane you can come crying to us if you want to, but you’re the ones who built on a fucking swamp. “Let the Spanish keep it, it’s a shithole,” we said, but you had to have your fucking orange juice.

The next dickwad who says, “It’s your money, not the government’s money” is gonna get their ass kicked. Nine of the ten states that get the most federal fucking dollars and pay the least… can you guess? Go on, guess. That’s right, motherfucker, they’re red states. And eight of the ten states that receive the least and pay the most? It’s too easy, asshole, they’re blue states. It’s not your money, assholes, it’s fucking our money. What was that Real American Value you were spouting a minute ago? Self reliance? Try this for self reliance: buy your own fucking stop signs, assholes.

Let’s talk about those values for a fucking minute. You and your Southern values can bite my ass because the blue states got the values over you fucking Real Americans every day of the goddamn week. Which state do you think has the lowest divorce rate you marriage-hyping dickwads? Well? Can you guess? It’s fucking Massachusetts, the fucking center of the gay marriage universe. Yes, that’s right, the state you love to tie around the neck of anyone to the left of Strom Thurmond has the lowest divorce rate in the fucking nation. Think that’s just some aberration? How about this: 9 of the 10 lowest divorce rates are fucking blue states, asshole, and most are in the Northeast, where our values suck so bad. And where are the highest divorce rates? Care to fucking guess? 10 of the top 10 are fucking red-ass we’re-so-fucking-moral states. And while Nevada is the worst, the Bible Belt is doing its fucking part.

But two guys making out is going to fucking ruin marriage for you? Yeah? Seems like you’re ruining it pretty well on your own, you little bastards. Oh, but that’s ok because you go to church, right? I mean you do, right? Cause we fucking get to hear about it every goddamn year at election time. Yes, we’re fascinated by how you get up every Sunday morning and sing, and then you’re fucking towers of moral superiority. Yeah, that’s a workable formula. Maybe us fucking Northerners don’t talk about religion as much as you because we’re not so busy sinning, hmmm? Ever think of that, you self-righteous assholes? No, you’re too busy erecting giant stone tablets of the Ten Commandments in buildings paid for by the fucking Northeast Liberal Elite. And who has the highest murder rates in the nation? It ain’t us up here in the North, assholes.

Well this gravy train is fucking over. Take your liberal-bashing, federal-tax-leaching, confederate-flag-waving, holier-than-thou, hypocritical bullshit and shove it up your ass.

And no, you can’t have your fucking convention in New York next time. Fuck off.

Posted by Doctress Julia on Nov 9, 2004 at 10:07 PM

Glen Bacon, Doctress Julia, notweny (it’s a big world),

First, THANK YOU Doctress! You spoke much for me! Exactly!

Glen, The similarities between Hitler and Bush are truly astounding!  I have referred to Bush as Hitler’s reincarnate since 2000.  What is most amazing, and truly overwelms me with sadness is that we all were taught of Hitler’s reign in history class.  We were dumbfounded as to how a modernized nation could be so brainwashed and fall prey to such a leader.  Yet with some belief (resembling the ignorance of teenage immortality) “the reds” have fallen prey in relation to our liberties, they refuse to see it’s presence HERE, RIGHT NOW!

notweny,
You are so right that there are plenty of better places to live.  SO many of us are programmed.  I here it all the time.  “Yeah, It’s bad but it’s still the best country in the world. Not by far currently.  BUt somebody has to stay and fight for it, what’s left of it, to restore it!  I must say after this election I am beginning to wonder. With the “red” ignorance so thick and so plentiful, I am beginning to ask myself, “Are they worth it?”  Is attempting to enlighten Red America futile? If we can’t separate into two nations, can we at least split Ohio’s electorate?

Posted by blue in a slightly red state on Nov 9, 2004 at 10:57 PM

Boy miz Doctoress julia are we not PMSing today!! Midol not working?? Potty mouth too! Well you arrogant self centered righteous bitch let me tell you something. WE WON BITCH!! get over it. This country was not founded or built by butt screwing faggots watching oprah. Sorry to enlighten you you ignorant dyke but you are wrong and America knows it. All the food comes from the red states. You can’t sustain yourselves by eating your college books and each other. Your arrogance is only trumped by your bitch mouth ignorance. I really feel almost guilty fighting you because it is no victory in fighting a battle of wits with someone as utterly defensless as yourself. Maybe try after your period is over and your mind is as normal as it can be. have a nice day.

Posted by redstate on Nov 10, 2004 at 5:19 AM

Washington DC who PROHIBITS any guns gas the highest crime rate.
the 1968 gun control act- the first one was taken almost verbatim from Adolph Hitler’s text after the jews got a few guns and fought back.

THAt’s why y’all keep losing so bad ya got your facts all screwed up.

Posted by redstate on Nov 10, 2004 at 5:25 AM

gun control in the extreme is the ONE issue where the democrats attempt to take or limit freedoms.  Look how you all get so fired up about it!  Can you not see all the other liberties being taken away by the republicans?  My democratic vote was not for abortion, gay marriage or any special interest.  It was for freedom and tolerance.  You all want to give so much power to a dictator that you have been misled to believe shares your values. How well do you know Mr Bush personally that you give him such control?  His values are out of the boundaries of his position.  Our presidents job is to protect our freedoms not project his values (or superficially proclaim the values of the masses to get the vote).  If he does his job protecting those freedoms I don’t give a damn about his personal values or choices.  Look at what happens when BUsh has control over something!  The people have no voice!  He has no control over abortion nor peoples relationships. Of course you are all trying to give him that power too.  WHat he does have control over is foreign relations and this war.  Look what a mess he has made there.  He doesn’t protect my family from terrorism, he has compounded their need to be protected.  He sends them to BE terrorists in a foreign land.  He has sent my man friend (I am currently permitted to have one of those without marriage) he has sent my son 3 times.  And 2 of my brothers are risking their lives for this cause.  Yes they joined.  They fight to protect the freedoms we enjoy while you reds spit in thier face with your vote.  You call that supporting our troops?  Would you just stop and THINK for a minute!

Posted by blue in a slightly red state on Nov 10, 2004 at 6:25 AM

Redstate,

Get my facts straight? Who’s twisting facts here? Not being for overly strict gun control laws myself, it is a perfect example of the taking of freedoms. Most violent crimes in Washington DC are committed with guns. Gun control laws or not, maybe you missed it but did you catch just how DEEPLY blue the vote was there? Surely you are aware that the crime rate there has an economic base.  BUt then who cares about the economy right?  What’s important here is that if a couple isn’t M/F and married they shouldn’t be permitted to share health insurance. Do I have you right here?

The real GUNS today are the laws of restiction (of any freedom).  You can thank the republicans for most of those.  And should you decide to protect yourself with a gun, there aren’t many laws protecting you.  Maybe you should start there. The laws in existance have pretty much rendered your gun as a self protective device, useless.  Don’t like that?  As usual you sit on both sides of the fence.  Pro-life yet capital punishment, pro war.  Pro freedom but yet destroy and conquer.  Seems to me it’s all about you, be like you, believe like you, live like you or die.  Where’s freedom in there?  I must say I do hear a lot less talk of Freedom from the reds anymore.  They speak more of protecting their Christian values. Who threatened your values? WHo threatened you right to live as you please?  If you desire to live in a nation of solely christianity and the values they claim are solely theirs, and you want no tolerance for other ways of life, then go make that country somewhere else.  Don’t steal this great nation.  This nation was founded on freedom and tolerance, NOT christianity.  God is representative of a superior being. Not one nation under Jesus Christ. Mind also the values, teachings of Jesus Christ are in no way practiced by our current administration.

You might want to review your map again.  The blue states, California, Illinois, Wisconsin, etc. (And New England seafood)  I’m eating good!  What are you having?  Crackers with your choice of orange or cactus juice?  Your going to have to improve your foreign relations if you want to move all that wheat!

Posted by blue in a slightly red state on Nov 10, 2004 at 8:09 AM

Three things: 

    Abortion will never be outlawed by Republicans because they need that issue to keep people voting against their own interests.

    The NRA is only an arm of the Republican party and do not really care about the rights of gun owners but about the rights of gun manufacturers.  Although
I am a strong supporter of the Second Amendment.

    Merlin is an idiot.

    Thanks.

Posted by Specialrep on Nov 10, 2004 at 11:21 AM

“Specialrep”

Spoke with insight and wisdom in just a few sentences.

Posted by abs on Nov 10, 2004 at 11:37 AM

Well maybe we have common ground here. If you will support my second ammendment rights I’ll support your abortion rights. I am glad to hear aliberal say that the president is supposed to protect our freedoms. That’s the truth.
I have lived all over this country from Alaska to Florida and a lot in between and I don’t think poverty has to do with crime. I live in a “poor” state now after moving from the richest county in Connecticut and I just don’t believe the poverty-crime corollation. I think; even as a libertarian leanin conservative that we need to live and let live. We need liberals reaching out to conservatives and vice-versa. I really believe that a lot of politicians on the right and left profit from the divide and conquer mentality.
  The crap from Doctoress Julia that I gave back crap to is a good examample. I will fight to the death if someone confronts me like that- and i will win. But if logical polite discourse is persued I will be more than accomodating

Posted by redsate on Nov 10, 2004 at 12:56 PM

Doctress Julia -

Exactly what is so silly about asking God to bless atheists?  (You will note that I did not single them out.)  I ask God’s blessings on ALL of humanity.  But I take it that you do not believe in God; you certainly have a right to your beliefs, whatever they may be.

Would it surprise you to know that I agree with much of what you say?  However, it would be far easier to comprehend your thoughts were they not so intertwined with unecessary vulgarisms!  To say that I do not harbor such very human thoughts myself would be a lie—may God forgive me—but I try never to put my baser emotions into print, for I am sure to regret it somewhere down the line!

Your cynicism is very depressing; why not try a little love?  Or does that hurt too much?

Doubtless GrayArea will be be doing another complete turn around when he reads what you have writ!  Your most compelling treatise exceeds the eloquence of Merlin by far!!!

I wish you peace, love and joy!

Posted by e'Claire (The writer formerly known as E. C. Roy) on Nov 10, 2004 at 3:46 PM

I’m really confused???  If George Bush is so homophobic that he needs a constitutional ammendment to ban gay marriages, then why does he keep bragging about having a MAN DATE??? :-)

Posted by confused on Nov 10, 2004 at 5:54 PM

Red State,

Thank you

There truly is not only a correlation but a many times proven (minimal bias statistical data) direct relationship between poverty and crime. Not that it is the sole factor. White collar crime however costs us much more and has been incorporated into our value system as acceptable, but that’s another issue entirely.  An enormous crime that cheats us all is how the election campaigns are run!

Posted by blue in a slightly red state on Nov 10, 2004 at 9:47 PM

Here’s the conservatives idea of the “war on crime”.

Some 16 year old kid robs $200 from a 7-11, they want to send him to jail for 10 years with no parole.

But some 48 year old executive can loot a company pension fund, or bilk a company out of millions with an under the table “quid pro quo” deal, they want to give him 6 months.

Posted by Liberal but Proud on Nov 11, 2004 at 12:16 PM

Lib but proud we AGREE on your above statement 100%. the gross inequity of sentencing of “white collar” crime is outrageous. See we can have common ground! Us red staters ain’t all bad just as I am sure you blue folks are good too. We just have to get over the differences. i am thinking more about the discussion of states rights as an answer to some of the differences. It is too bad that most of the discussion about states rights is predicated on the most heinous misuse of “rights”- slavery. If we could get over that and talk about those rights in a good light that might be an answer to not healing the differences of values but at least having a “home base” to start from.

Posted by redstate on Nov 11, 2004 at 2:46 PM

mark my words, in the next four years there will come a time that I can say proudly that I voted for kerry.

Posted by vp on Nov 14, 2004 at 8:36 AM

to respond to the subtitle of this article this does mark a trend in case you choose not to recognize it as such. Since 1994 and the “Republican Revolution” that marked the end of 40 years of the democrats stranglehold on this country to this most recent elections America is in a massive trend to vote democrats and especially the far left fringe of democrats out of power. Yeah you got your rock star Obama in but that is an abberation. We finally got Daschle out and that is a good thing. Demorats have been consisitently losing power for the last 10 years. America is starting to recognize that the far left- socialist policies are a threat to this country.

Posted by redstate on Nov 14, 2004 at 12:51 PM

redstate:

The “Republican Revolution” is no more than the progression of facist ideology. Not in the sense of Nazis or Hitler, per say, but the pure ideology of a Capital State.

Facism is the practice of corporate controlled state, where capital is king and those “without” are at the mercy of those “with”. Facism has a long history of support by American corporations, from IBM to Prescott Bush (yes, G. W. Bush’s grandfather, who operated a bank that was a front for laundering money in support of Nazi Germany’s wealthiest financier).

When the motivation for the state becomes capital, then those who move capital become the state. This is the definition of facism, and this is the direction Bush and his “Republical Revolution” is taking this country. Any country that dares suggest the motivation for the state should be the betterment of society will be threatened and eventually destroyed.

This is the real reason we are in Iraq, and the real reason Saddam was attacked by Bush, Sr. Saddam dared to provide free healthcare and edication for his people—God forbid! Yes, Saddam is a bad guy and repressed his people with extreme brutality, but that is not why we are in Iraq. We are in Iraq to secure the development os a state that is friendly to the capital aims of the American Empire. Period—this is your “Republican Revolution.”

It never ceases to amaze me how people support such an agenda of a capital state—one that is built on blood for the love of money and power. And it never ceases to amaze me how people belittle those who dare to suggest there is a better way, a way where the motivation for society could actually be its betterment, not for destruction.

So, “redstate”, we should call a Duck a Dusk when is waddles about the edge of the pond. The “Republican Revolution” is nothing more than the Facist Emperical Movement and it is a threat to the very existence of humankind.

I pray for a better day, a day when humanity is motivated by its service to humanity.

Posted by John on Nov 14, 2004 at 1:27 PM

Typos:

“free healthcare and edication” should be “free healthcare and education” and “call a Duck a Dusk” should be “call a Duck a Duck”

Posted by John on Nov 14, 2004 at 2:04 PM

John fascism is a two edge sword. you complain about a corporate controlled state well how about a liberal fascist state. I fear a socialist state just as much as you fear a republican state. I don’t want government in my life in the form of healthcare and retirement. Just look at the department of motor vehicles and other beaurocracies. No thanks.
  Are you really trying to tell me that Iraq was better under Hussein?? Michael Moore really got to you with HIS brainwashing didn’t he. And there is no such thing as FREE healthcare somebody somewhere has to pay for it. I think socialism is a threat to the world and everywhere it has been trie it has failed miserably and usually turns into a dictatorship.

Posted by redstate on Nov 14, 2004 at 3:23 PM

There is no such thing as a “liberal facist state” as you sugest. Liberalism implies freedoms and protected liberties. The only reason you should fear a socialist state is if you are one of the controllers of capital in the capital state. Otherwise, you have nothing to fear and nothing to lose but your chains.

There is an idea that government is by the people, for the people. This does not exist in America. However, this was a huge part of Jefferson’s vision for America’s future. He, and his co-founders, often proclaimed “Long live liberalism” as they were staunch liberals. Jefferson did not believe in a standing army (observing how it turned Rome from a democracy to an imperial dictatorship).

To point out that Saddam provided social programs to his people from the wealth of the state is in no way an endorsement of Saddam’s tyrrantical rule. He was brutal towards his people when they dared speak freely—this is true. But, to assess and compare Saddam’s rule to the current situation, we must not ignore the past 12 years of brutal US-led sanctions and how it weakened the people while making Saddam stronger against his people.

My writings on this subject was published long before Michael Moore’s 9/11 movie. So, I am not jumping on any bandwagons or being brainwashed.

It never ceases to amaze me how Fox News viewers can be led to believe erroneous mis-facts (like Saddam=9/11 or Saddam=al-Kay-duh or Saddam=WMD) and that is honored, but accepting verifiable facts is somehow considered being brainwashed. Funny how that is, isn’t it?

Socialism includes the idea that the government and the people are one (by the people, for the people) while facism demands the people to be subjects of the corporate state (USA).

I do not fear the facist state, I live in a facist state (and will continue to live here so I can work to change it). What concerns me is the forced spreading of facism at the barrel of guns paid for by my tax dollars and the apathy of the American people.

It is clear that you do not understand socialism. I suggest you read William Morris’ “How We Live and How We Might Live”. It will open your eyes.

http://www.marxists.org.uk/archive/morris/works/1884/hwl/hwl.htm

—john

http://www.johnjanney.org

Posted by John on Nov 14, 2004 at 7:52 PM

no liberal facist state you say. How about California-Massachussetts. How about China- russia etc. Come on you cannot be seriously espousen socialism ans communism—is this Ted kennedy writng as John?? Hello stop trying to convert Jefferson to your commie view. He was a religous man who favored the second ammendment and all the rest to keep people free from the type of tyranny you preach. You equate Fox and Bush and anybody who does not agree with youe socialist schemes to Facism! Name one country that socialism has worked?? I WAS right about you lefties you all are a bunch of commie pinkos. God I miss that phrase from the 60’s!! But it was true then & true now….

Posted by redstate on Nov 15, 2004 at 9:39 AM

Ya know william morris you speak of was great when it came to the arts and crafts movement right before the turn of the 20th century and a lot of what he believed in was good but apparentley he did not practice what he preached. He was a major richpiggie.He set up a lot of shops to use his designs and ideas and then profited from them - what a capitalist pig!!  Socialism while utopian in design has a major flaw- humans who are not perfect. had the Bolshiveks kept their true ideals things might have gone better the same with China but socialism lends itself by the very absence of democracy to be taken over by TRUE dictators.

Posted by redstate on Nov 15, 2004 at 9:51 AM

Redstate:

Jefferson was an open liberal, that is a fact. I can not convert the converted, and I never said he was a communist—just a liberal. It is an historical fact that his vision of America is much different than what America has become. He opposed a standing Army, supported social (not military) conscription and a host of other liberal values.

Do we equate Fox with Bush? Well, it is a demonstrable fact that Fox News supports Bush and his right-wing agenda. It is well known that Fox is a riht-wing network. I am not revealing any secrets here, just restating the obvious. Why would you be ashamed of Fox being on your side? Could it be that a poll of Fox viewers revealed that over 70% believed that Saddam=9/11, Saddam=Al-Kay-Duh and Saddam=WMD while less than 20% of those watching/listening to NPR/PBS held these misunderstandings.

Yes, Morris, Marx and many socialists were wealthy. They were also educated and held strong beliefs about equality of humans. They felt that classism was wrong and proposed solutions to the disparity they witnessed. I guess that is wrong by your standards, but I find that honorable—to seek solutions for society’s ills.

Socialism is not utopian. That is a misconception, but such assertions are expected. We are fed such misconceptions by the maintainers of the capital state so people are scared away from the truth about socialism.

The killer of socialism is apathy. China, Russia and other states did not practice anything near socialism. They maintained their monetary systems, they maintains inequality, they maintained their rulling classes, they maintained their military classes and other violations of the socialist vision.

Socialism is a movement of the people, for the people. It can only be acheived by the people. Once “rulers” get involved, it is no longer socialism. Once rulers get involved, it is no longer democracy—and socialism is the only true democratic system (capitalism demands facism).

No, I am not Ted Kennedy. He is too right-wing for me :o)

I am john at http://www.johnjanney.org

—john

Posted by John on Nov 16, 2004 at 4:00 AM

behind every depressed & angry person you will find a utopian who has had his dreams shattered. I think FOX has a much more positive view of Bush. Just the opposite of Dan rather- bias whose flaming ideology is thinly veiled. Brokaw-Jenning- CNN- PBS Boston Globe-and most papers and newsoutlets ARE blatantly liberal and I think that is why Rush and FOX are so wildly popular( present company excluded of course) People are dying to hear more than just Bush bashing and left wing propaganda. If you think that you are left of Kennedy - well boy you must be an all out communist because he is way left. If you state that the rulers of any socialist regime screw things up is what you want total law of the jungle anarchy. I studied that for years and even made a pilgramage to Left Bank Books in Seattle but most of the new anarchists want to destroy civilization out of anger not hopes for a better future. I became totally disenchanted with anything to do with the left as I found them 100x more facist and nazi-like than the right.

Posted by redstate on Nov 16, 2004 at 6:34 AM

John:
Why are you debating this “redstate” character. If he equates liberalism with fascism he can’t possible understand what your saying. You might as well be arguing whether the sun revolves around the earth or visa versa…logic won’t apply.
Perhaps he’s a Sean Hannity admirer who buys into the idea that liberals are on par with terrorists and despots like Mr. Hannity.
You efforts to bend his rigid and myopic thought is to be applauded but it is futile.

Posted by abs on Nov 16, 2004 at 9:06 AM

Red,

you know as well as I do that me arguing with you is pointless, you should be seeking counseling.  And quality care at that, people like you deserve the best, I don’t care what the Republicans say. 

Now, I’ll give you a last freebie.  Don’t come looking for more, ‘cause I’m not getting any tax benefits for this one.  In fact, I won’t be looking for any, since Bushie boy has already cut me so much slack I’m considering boosting the economy on my margin.  Wait…  That’d mean I’d lose it.  Whatever.  I like his approach, I make some serious mooloah off of you proletarians.  As long as you are taken by preventing faggots from marrying you will not be too worried about my taxbill.  And if things go on like this, in an election cycle or two I won’t have one because you’ll be picking it up through a hefty sales tax.  A bit further down the line you’ll be screaming at how unfair it all is, and I’ll point to this letter and say:

I TOLD YOU SO YOU *UCKING IDIO*.

And then life will go on.  I’ll still be making more money than you.  I’ll still be living in a blue state.  But I won’t be picking up your wellfare bill.  Because you stepped in and voted in my favour.  Thanks a yahoo fu*kwit.  Nobody gets a free ride.  Not even you.  But state your name whenever a person walks by.  I’ll make a habit of putting a dollar in someones cup that calls himself Red State. You deserve all the charity you can get.

Not

Posted by notweny on Nov 16, 2004 at 9:44 PM

abs:

Yes, I know debating with right-wingers is usually fruitless (in terms of affecting the right-winger), but I do so for the purpose of showing others the truth about how people like redstate think, believe and react to facts and logic.

For example, when I pointed out that over 90% of Muslims voted for Kerry, redstate responded by calling ALL Muslims “terrorists” (which is a very hateful and bigotted response). Such a response is typical of people who saturate their minds with Fox News and other right-wing media (which is nothing more than hate-media). And they do not call their media “hate” ... no, they call it “truth.”

Another example is their calling “liberals” and the “liberal media” as hateful. This is almost funny, if it wasn’t so pathetic. This so-called liberal media is more fair, balanced and accurate (as a recent study comparing Fox viewers with NPR listeners proved). This “truthfulness” is seen as “hate” because it does not reflect positively on neo-cons. So, it is hate—plain and simple. No questions asked. Period. End of story… hate.

When a group calls truth “hate” and calls hate “truth” ... then we have a problem. When that group exploits the base survival emotion of fear to spread that ideology (and does so successfully, as we saw on Nov 2), then we have a HUGE problem. We have a Hitler-style problem.

So, I argue to educate others—even though redstate may have his hands over his ears and eyes. And saving monds from the poison of hate and fear is done in the service of humanity (to save lives that are currently being slaughtered around the world in service to this fear and hatred).

So, this is why I argue.

—john
http://www.johnjanney.org

Posted by John on Nov 17, 2004 at 4:22 AM