The No-Partner Myth

The “fundamental grievance(s) fueling the conflict” is none that you mentioned.  It is the existence of a Jewish state, Israel, in Palestine.  You refer to “37 years” as if that takes events back to the beginning of time.  37 years ago, Arabs controlled the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem.  The PLO charter, back then, did not call for a Palestinian state in those territories, it called for the destruction of Israel.  A “new myth” is not necessary.  The world has one and it is the myth that the Palestinians and the rest of the Arabs will ever live in peace with a Jewish Israel if they have a viable alternative.

Posted by Cary Salsberg on Nov 12, 2004 at 5:17 PM

The suicide bombs the past four years are not a “myth.” The call to Jihad by Arafat, the adoration of martyrs and martyrdom operations are not a myth.  The refusal of Arafat to restrain the Al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade which are part of his own Fatah movement from blowing up jewish women and children is not a myth.  The fact that Arafat turned down Barak and Clinton’s offer in 2000 for 97% of the disputed territories and partial right of return is not a myth. The fact that the Palestinians want their own state and want to also move into Israel and take over Israel is not a myth. The fact that Arafat even denied that the Jews had a temple in Jerusalem is not a myth.  The fact that Cairo born Arafat is a Palestinian or gave a damn about peace or the welfare of the Palestinians is a myth!

Posted by David Simantob on Nov 12, 2004 at 5:38 PM

Putting self interest and grandstanding aside, and looking at history for a moment…and fairly recent history.

It seems to be that in order to reach agreements you need to have leaders on both sides that are willing to agree. Also, all parties on all sides have to be viewed as legitimate representatives of their constituents in order to sell any deal.

After the initial openings between Arabs and Israelis made by President Carter during the First Camp David accords, the stage had been set to really move forward in solving the Palestinian problem.

Unfortunately, during both the Reagan and G.W. Bush Administrations a decision was obviously made to play to the Jewish vote and a policy of “marginalizing” Arafat was begun by the US. While this policy led to solid re-election victory for Reagan and played a major role in the election of GW, it wreaked havoc with advancement and set the stage for the first intifada. It also germinated the seeds of more openly hostile and violent factions within the PLO and significantly undermined Arafat and de facto any real chance for peace.

President Clinton attempted to seriously restart that process and came very close to completing a real deal that would have given the Palestinians some measure of a homeland. Many blame Arafat for the failure of that agreement, but that’s way to easy.

By the time of Clinton’s negotiation between Arafat and Barak, prior US policy has so damaged Arafat and his credibility with his people that he had no choice but to turn it down. To have agreed to the deal, and then be faced with serious disagreement at “home” and probably a defacto rejection of the deal, would have only driven Israel and the Palestinian radicals into even deeper and more intransigent bloodshed.

Arafat was a warrior. I do agree to that view. But he was not an idiot. And he was, despite the view presently being promoted, an excellent politician.

I would argue that by not signing the deal he performed a longer term service to the continuation of the peace process.

Posted by Liberal but Proud on Nov 12, 2004 at 6:09 PM

The new myth?
Try this one out.
The myth will be in the form of a question.
“Are the Palestinians ready for democracy?”
One already hears this over and over again.
Of course, what this really means is “Are they ready to capitulate?”
The bar will be raised just high enough that it is unattainable.
As if the conditions of living under complete occupation would permit freedom.

Posted by notacolony.ca on Nov 12, 2004 at 6:45 PM

To Cary Salsberg & David Simantob,

Yes, it’s true, the Palestinian-Israeli conflict goes back before 1967.  It goes back to the Zionist colonization of Palestine (which, on the eve of the Balfour declaration, was 90& Arab) against the wishes of the vast majority of the native inhabitants.  It also goes back to 1948, with the expulsion of between 500,000 and 750,000 Arabs and the destruction of over 400 Palestinian villages .  Like it or not, these aspects of history are still part of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. 

However, the fact is that Arafat and the PLO did concede their claim to 78& of their homeland and recognize Israel in exchange for withdrawal from the territories occupied since 1967.  Rather than accept this historic compromise, Israel continued to colonize the West Bank and East Jerusalem; as the article points out, during the Oslo process, the number of settlers in the West Bank doubled to around 200,000 in the West Bank (that doesn’t include East Jerusalem.  Ultimately, it’s the failure of the Oslo process to bring any benefits to Palestinians that led to the end of Oslo and the outset of the Intifada. As for Barak’s generous offer, that’s another story.

Posted by Peter on Nov 12, 2004 at 7:11 PM

Arafat wasn’t the obstacle, it was his refusal to prevent terrorism and incitement against Israel. 

The myth is that the Palestinians want peace.

Hamas and *Arafat* Matyrs Brigade have now publicly renewed their call for a continuation of the policy of suicide attacks, and the destruction of Israel. 

Is this who Israel should negotiate with?  Or is it those leading the Palestinian goverment who are unprepared to put these dogs on a leash?

Posted by Alex on Nov 12, 2004 at 7:47 PM

The great warrior who wanted to liberate Palestine, also supported the invation of Kuwait by Iraq. This great leader and politian who gave the funding for the murder of athletes and children in kibbuttzim is now dead. his great leader who won the Nobel Peace Price, insisted that grammar school text books exclude Israel from its maps. This great father figure was expeeld from Jordan after threatening its soverenty and ignited the lebanese civil war. He will not be missed.

Posted by elliott on Nov 12, 2004 at 7:55 PM

It’s good to see that at least some people see Arafat for the butcher he was.  I celebrate his death and can’t believe that asshole Kofi Annan had the U.N. fly flags at half-mast for that piece of shit.  Liberal But Proud: Arafat was not a warrior any more than Bin Laden is.  Arafat was a terrorist and if there is a hell his sorry ass is perched in one of the hottest spots in the lowest circle.

Posted by Ted on Nov 12, 2004 at 8:35 PM

The fundamental question concerning the Middle East is not Arafat, it’s Israel usurpation of Palestinians rigths and dignity.

How dare a people who were once oppressed become the oppressors of another? How dare they steal another peoples land and claim from Brooklyn, Kiev, and Russia that Palestine is their religious birthright? What about the legitimiate birthright of Palestinians who were born in their land and are now made destitue in refugee camps scattered around the world.

The fact which NEVER gets mentioned is that ISRAEL WAS FOUNDED by TERRORISM! It TERRORIZED the British by blowing up their interests in Palestine which culminated in British withdrawal of Palestine and the creation of the terrorist state and no Palestine.

Israel is the only “democratic” country, and now the United States, that is an militaristic occupier.

The ULTIMATE fact is the Israel has continued to survive due to support from America whose foreign policy is biased against Palestinians and in favor of Israel.

And America has supported Israel because of the financial dominance of the Jewish lobby. AIPAC and AJC and various Jewish organizations are power houses on Capitol Hill.Just look up at any RESOLUTION concerning Israel in the US Congress and the PRO-ISRAELI bias contained within and my ULTIMATE POINT IS PROVEN!

Posted by Alexi T. on Nov 12, 2004 at 9:47 PM

Wow, Alex T. I was just about to write the same thing, thanks because it is the truth. If peace is possible, it’s going to up to israel.

Posted by marcus on Nov 12, 2004 at 10:13 PM

Alex T. Ever thought about the fact that at the time of Israel’s creation the actual proposal was to create two states, Israel and a ‘Palestinian’ state, the latter of which’ territory exceeded any that has later been or will ever be offered again? How did our peace-loving Arab brothers respond? Same as now, with an outright refusal to recognize the legitimacy of Jews in the place of the Jewish people’s birth.

Posted by mark r on Nov 12, 2004 at 11:49 PM

1. The regional conflicts in the middle east existed WAY before 1967 and 1948 and are in fact thousands of years old.  They are more tribal/ethnic than religious.  Arabs and Kurds, Jews, Aremenians, and others have been fighting for a *very* long time.  The conflicts are not territorial skirmishes but have been brutal and genocidal.  When the Israelis are negotiating with the Arabs, they face the reality that if the Arabs ever achieve their stated goal of the destruction of Israel, it will not be a political goal or an occupation of land, it will be genocide…witness what has happened in fairly recent times to the Armenians and the Kurds.
2. Jews did not suddenly appear in the region in the 1940s.  They lived there for thousands of years and were expelled when the Arabs rose to power (a detail folks like Alexi and Marcus overlook); for Jews and Arabs, this conflict is on a much longer time scale than the 20th century.
3. Alexi and Marcus, while you are correct that there is plenty of blame to go around for the current situation (for Israel and the Arabs), no state in their right mind would negotiate with anyone who openly advocates their destruction and the killing of non-combatants, women, and children.  Would you?  Can you imagine America giving in to the demands of Bin Laden after he killed thousands of innocents?  I don’t think so. 
Arafat and the Palestinians have only frightened and hardened the Israelis and most of the world by their intransigent support of terrorism.  By refusing to renounce terrorism and embrace a negotiated solution when given the chance, Arafat continued the Palestinian legacy of never missing an opportunity to miss an opportunity.  That will be his epitaph.

Posted by Liberal AND Proud on Nov 13, 2004 at 3:42 AM

I think Liberal and Proud frames the situation very well. I would only remind you folks who keep bringing up 1967 and 1948 and 37 long years ago…. that right now you live in the year 5765…yes thats right, 5765…the Jewish people have a calendar too,the Romans when they ruled the world by force simply reset it to mark the life of that Jewish rabbi?..what is his name again?Oh you might have heard of him, Jesus Christ is his name.Our world was created in 6 days and on the 7th day he rested. A day for him is like a thousand years for you and me. The world will exist for a thousand years for every day of creation. 5765, only couple hundred years left,now think about that.

Posted by peace train on Nov 13, 2004 at 5:02 AM

This outpouring of “affection” and words of praise on the death of Yasser Arafat would be almost comical, if not for the misery he had inflicted over his lifetime.  A more fitting send-off is found in Hilaire Belloc’s epigram, “Epitaph on the Politician”:

Here richly, with ridiculous display,
The Politician’s corpse was laid away.
While all of his acquaintance sneered and slanged
I wept: for I had longed to see him hanged.

Posted by Steven on Nov 13, 2004 at 5:43 AM

The author admits that “some of” the allegations against Arafat are true and then blames Israel for disseminating these truths until they become a “myth.” The author is an intellectual pervert.

Posted by overful on Nov 13, 2004 at 6:25 AM

You folks are just plain stupid.  The arabs have attacked the jewish settlers again and again.  And they lost each time.  In ‘67, the date you mention as the “legal” borders, the arabs attacked isreal. Isreal used the pretext of the invasion as a way to actually have defensible borders.  This was so they could have PEACE (something you liberals are supposed to want)—- it was not just a “land grab.”  As long as you folks keep aligning yourselves with disorganized, hate-filled, antiamerican criminals and terrorists losers like arafat and most of the politicaly minded palistinians, you will lose elections.  I thought you liberals would be smart enough to figure this out yourselves, but….

Posted by shawn harper on Nov 13, 2004 at 7:05 AM

Palestinians have taken Araft’s bait, hook, line and sinker. A corrupt, mass murderer, who has left a legacy of wealth to his wife and sorrow to the rest.

He couldn’t negotiate a lasting deal with the greatest deal makers of all-time? Jews and Americans?

Extremist fundamental Arabs have usurpped the legitimate rights of peace loving Palestinians, who, are caught in a 50 year cross fire along with innocent Israelis, and other terror victims (yes, Americans too).

Don’t blame Israel for defending itself from a people bent on it’s destruction.

Arafat’s epitath: he never missed and opportunity to miss an opportunity.

Posted by jb on Nov 13, 2004 at 7:06 AM

I could write a long and factually-based response to this piece of revisionist trash promulgated by Neve Grodon. However, most of my presentation, based upon fact and truth, has already been presented eloquently in some of the responses posted on this site. The facts are plain. The Arabs     the Jews. They will always     the Jews. They will always try to drive the Jews into the sea. They spew anti-Semitism in all forms throughout the world media. They will never accept an Israeli state in the Middle East. The Arab mentality and the heinous and everlasting Islamic goal of world conquest, leave no place for a Jewish state in the Middle East. History tries to repeat itself. When the Armenians tried to establish a Christian state within the Ottoman Empire, the Turks impaled 1.5 million of them. The world forgot about that genocide speedily.      knew that the European nations and those of the rest of the world have short memories, and were, as they still are, virulently anti-Semitic. He knew that he could get away with the genocide of the Jews, as the Arabs with willing supporters throughout the world are trying to do today. What is the reason for Iran’s development of nuclear weapons except to wipe out Israel, whose existence they do not recognize. The repeatedly stated goal of the Iranian government is, as one French senior politician so aptly put it, to wipe out “that   ty little nation”. Probably the best example of this world-wide conspiracy to destroy Israel and the Jewish people by the Moslem world and their malignant European partners was best expresed in a speech given to the all of the Islamic nations by the Prime Minster of Indonesia who, in the name of Allah, demanded the destruction of the Jews. The Armenian genocide was the precursor for the Holocaust, the destruction of two thirds of European Jewry by the Germans and their willing accomplices throughout the world, especially those notorious European nations that sometimes outdid the   s in their hunger for Jewish     . It is the one historical event that shows the intractable zenophobia that manifests itself in the Arab world in their desire to destroy Israel. This attitude still infests the diseased minds of the Islamic nations and those European countries who have seen fit in the past to make that continent one large Jewish graveyard. The Europeans, the Islamic world, with the zealous coooperation of that morally bankrupt and anti-American and anti-Semitic organization laughingly known as the United Nations are trying their damnest to destroy the Jews again. This time the target is Israel. Through their support of virulent anti-Semitism (France in particular), one-sided U.N. Security Council resolutions that damn Israel and always fail to mention the homicide   ings perpetrated by the Arab barbarians and their misnamed militant groups (they are     ist organizations; however the media refuses to designate them so) they intend to perpetrate the destruction of the Jews in the name of Allah and the fallacious Palestinian cause. The Palestinians do not want a two state solution. They want one state, their own Islamic state, which has no room for the Jewish people, and that is they way they will always think. There is no way to deal with barbarians. The Israelis have no obligation to try to establish a Palestinian state along side of it, because the only peace that the Arabs want is a piece of land, and that includes the land that is the birhtright of the Jews,the State of Israel, the only democratic and moral country in the Middle East, and the only place on this G-d’s earth where the Jewish people are really safe. The Arabs and their Islamic     ism can go to hell. The Jewish people, in the embodiment of Israel, are here to stay. RJ

Posted by Richard Julis on Nov 13, 2004 at 8:38 AM

Arafat’s death means nothing. The matrix of Israeli occupation still exists in Nablus, Jenin, Tulkarem, Bethlehem, and thousands of other cities and villages in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. The apartheid wall being built deep into the West Bank will still exist (Israel’s argument, that it needs to construct an internationally condemned and illegal barrier on non-Israeli land in order to protect Israeli-only settlements that were also built illegally in the first place, sets a new level of chutzpah even by the standards of Jewish culture). The ritualized daily murder of Palestinians will continue, with nary a peep from the corporate media. Ariel Sharon, one of the few mass murderers in recent history to have reinvigorated a political career thought to have been dead by committing one massacre too many (and openly), will continue to carry out his plan of annexing the choicest pieces of West Bank real estate and resources while cantonizing the remaining territory and offering it as a ‘state’ to those brown-skinned upstarts who dared to defy the Chosen People’s mandate from god. In short, nothing will change.

Posted by Iskandar on Nov 13, 2004 at 9:20 AM

The Israelis are committing atrocities against the Palestinians just as the Nazis committed atrocities against the Jews.

Unless Israel stops its heavyhanded and illegal activities in the Gaza and the West Bank, there will never be peace in the middle east. With Sharon and Bush in office there is virtually no chance of a middle east peace, no matter what Blair and Bush may say in the White House lawns.

Posted by Robert on Nov 13, 2004 at 9:42 AM

The seed of the Israel-Palestinian conflict is not all with the Palestinians but with the Arab world. How else can one explain that after 56 years there are still Palestinians in refugee camps in Lebanon, Jordan, and Syria?  Israel’s neigbors have put their Arab Palestinian brothers and sisters on purpose in a state of desparation in order to accomplish two objectives:
Divert attention away from their own non-democratic forms of Arab governments who do not provide meaningful opportunities for their young generation.
Second, to rally global idignation against Israel with the purpose of wiping that nation off the map.

Too bad the Palestinians have suffered and continue to suffer at the mercy of their fellow Arabs.

Posted by erik freund on Nov 13, 2004 at 9:48 AM

As long as people like Robert keep up with virulent anti-semitic remarks there willnever be peace. My great grand-parents where butchered naked in the snow, shot and their boddies dumped in to an unmarked mass grave in some field in Lithuania. And there crime? they were Jews. Nothing more, nothing else. As far as I can recall the Israelis have never ever done anything like that. But I do recall a crowd of Plaestinians lynching two young Israelis,and then the crowd proudly showing the Israelis bloods in the hands. Similar thing happe in Iraq with the Americans. Rbert why don’t you think twice before comparing Israelis to Nazis and instead concentrate on criticing the Government of Egypt and Syria for allowing the prime time broadcasting of the Protocls of Zion on national television? Thats because people like Robert are closet anti-semites with absolutely no sence of history.

Posted by mark on Nov 13, 2004 at 10:00 AM

Arafat made it possible for the Palestinians to identify themselves as Palestinians, not as Jordanians, Lebanese or Syrians.  I remember when I watched on black and white television a young woman scream “I am a Palestinian.”  That is when I began to understand the Palestinian cause and the non-democratic ways of the Jewish occupiers of their lands.

Posted by Eileen Abbott on Nov 13, 2004 at 10:01 AM

Erik, get a grip.

What’s going on in the West Bank and Gaza is nothing like what the Nazi’s did.  By making ridiculous comparisons like that you de-value what could otherwise be a useful discussion.  Israel has not tried to commit a genocide of the Palestinians nor acted even remotely like the Nazis…try reading a bit.

Israel certainly has culpability for using the Palestinians as cheap labor for many years while leaving them stuck in a political and national no-man’s land.  Israel and their Arab neighbors could have lifted the Palestinians out of the squalor in which they now suffer.  However, the Israelis used them for cheap labor and the Arabs used them as political cannon fodder.

Their initial struggles brought attention to their plight, but the Palestinians now make their own lives miserable by choosing hatred and violence as core values, canonizing murderers, and allowing corrupt dictatorships to keep them impoverished, humiliated, and nationless.  If the Palestinians decide to have a peaceful democratic government and work cooperatively with Israel and the U.S., Palestine would be a reality and a splendid nation within a decade.

However, by sending suicide bombers against civilians, morters and rockets against suburbs, and killing women, children, and other non-combatants, they harden the hearts of the Israelis and Americans against their plight…the choice is theirs.  It is not reasonable to expect Israel (or any other nation) to subject themselves to or reward terrorism.

What would you do?

Posted by Liberal AND Proud on Nov 13, 2004 at 10:19 AM

Shawn Harper, you are a bit too ignorant to be calling other people stupid. For instance, Israel attacked first in 1956 and 1967, no matter how you spin it. And the author was talking about land grabs since 1967 in the form of settlements in the occupied territories, particularly since Oslo.

I wish people would bother to learn some history instead of regurgitating propaganda. It might actually lead to better mutual understanding and toleration.

Posted by just da facts, ma'am on Nov 13, 2004 at 10:27 AM

Oops, sorry Erik, I meant to say Robert

Posted by Liberal AND Proud on Nov 13, 2004 at 10:31 AM

Robert, you are a moron.  Really.  Did you know that isreal is about 20% arab.  “Palistinian” arab.  That’s not the “palistinians”.  That’s the arabs that are ISREALI CITIZENS. The jews are not rounding up palistinians and executing them like your liberal college professors are telling you.  They GET ALONG with their isreali arabs in their LIBERAL DEMOCRACY, the ONLY liberal democracy in the middle east, you moron.  Read some isreali newspapers!  They’re liberal!  Just like most american Jews!  Just like you!!!  Moron.  The only reason the admittedly somewhat sinister sharon is in power is because the arabs and persians are constantly attacking them, making them want to elect people who will protect them, much like here.  Jews are are biggest donors to palistinian humanitarian causes!  I am not jewish, nor am I related to any, but I know the isrealis are not only our biggest friend in the middle east, but the have the most MORAL government in the middle east—and they are the only people in the middle east who seem to get any thing done besides pick dates and sell oil—- while the other cultures there seem to not be able to build ANYTHING, or even drill their own oil——they only seem to know how to BLOW THINGS UP, with weapons they’re not smart enough to make but are able to buy with oil that other cultures have managed to find for them.  Moron!

Posted by shawn harper on Nov 13, 2004 at 10:36 AM

Hey just the facts!

Yes, I have read a lot of propaganda.  Including “Isreal: the U.S.‘s watchdog in the Middle East” by the internationalist socialist organization.

I know ALL about the history of isreal, the CIA, etc.  I know the isrealis are far from perfect human beings.  I even know they sold important US secrets to the soviets. You seem to have a little knowlege. Did you know that isreal was attacked the day it gained statehood, by a gang of loser nations that couldn’t even defeat one one-day-old state made up of a people that the germans and french had no problem rounding up and killing.  These people are not only hate filled killers, they are pretty pathetic at it, and these are the guys you are siding with.  Pretty smart.

Posted by shawn harper on Nov 13, 2004 at 10:47 AM

Hey Liberal AND proud!

You are absolutely right in your assessments and elegant in your writing.  Even though you are a liberal moron.  I could only hope I could express myself so well, were I trying to change minds.  I am only trying to pick fights!  I have honorable reasons for this, reasons you might not understand.

Rock-on

Posted by shawn harper on Nov 13, 2004 at 11:10 AM

Iskandar,
  You appear to be interested in justice for oppressed ethnic minorities, how do you feel about the treatment of Jews, Kurds, Persians, Armenians, and other ethnic groups in Turk and Arab countries?  Do you also speak out against the radical oppression of women in the Arab world?  Or is your interest in justice limited to oppression of Palestinians by Jews?  Your rhetoric seems decidedly anti-Semitic.  Did I misunderstand you?

Posted by Liberal AND Proud on Nov 13, 2004 at 12:30 PM

The Jews claim to be victims but they are the true oppressors of the Palestinian people. It is their terror and blind funding of Israel that perpetuates the violent domination of Palestine by the blood-hound Israeli butchers like Sharon.

Just because “your” grandparents were tortured in Lithuania because they were Jews, does not MEAN the Jews take out their genocide, hatred, and anger on the Palestinians. Somebody has to remind you that Palestinians ARE NOT GERMANS!

And for your additional info. the original Jews of Palestine live in harmony with their Arab majority neighbors in peace. It was afer the founding of the terrorist state of Israel which usurped Palestinian rights and razed their livihood which is the CAUSE of the CURRENT CONFLICT.

Some Palestinians want to drive Jews to the sea, but the Jews of Israel have already drove many STATELESS Palestinians to the sea. What about them, you hypocrates?

Posted by Cheryl on Nov 13, 2004 at 12:52 PM

The misery that Arafat had upon Israelis *pales* in comparision to the scorn, destruction, and terrorism that Israel meted out to the Palestinians over a period of 55 years!

Posted by NeoConservative_HAWK on Nov 13, 2004 at 12:56 PM

Hey Iskandar!

Do you know that the palistinians have semetic blood?  That they are semites as wll as arabs?  Did you know that many of these brown skin people killers, the “jews” are also brown skinned?  That they are ethnically brown-skinned (read the bible)? No, they aren’t white like me.  They have a nice olive color to their skin, so you can’t use that white-brown thing against them, like you can me.  You would be better off talking about how the brown skin arabs have been killing hundreds of thousands of other brown skinned peoples in sudan for over a decade.  It’s getting so bad that even the UN, usually giving a free pass to the stupid peoples of the world, has actually woken up to what’s going on there.  Feeling defensive?

Posted by shawn harper on Nov 13, 2004 at 12:57 PM

Erikfruend blames the Arabs for the plight of the Palestinians. For it is Lebanon, Syria, Jordan which does not give statehood to Palestinians.

The problem with that theory is simple: your a *racist*

You think Arabs are Arabs regardless of their unique national and cultural heritage. To you all Arabs are devoid of boundaries and national allegiances.

You think a Syrian or an Iraqi or a Saudi are all the same because to you all Arabs are the same. I wouldn’t be surprised if you think all blacks and Chinese are the same too!

And why should another nation such as Lebanon, Syria, or Jordan take the responsibility of the crimes of Israel. The last time I checked international law, which Israel and its supporters arrogantly dismiss, an occupied country is the responsibility of its occupier!

Posted by NeoConservative_HAWK on Nov 13, 2004 at 1:04 PM

Shawn harper your the complete embodiment of the *BLIND ISRAELI SUPPORTER* that I talk about. To you Israel can never be wrong!

You resort to name calling of others (Shawn Harper is a moron) instead of logically arguing your point.

It is hopeless to even waste energy on closed minded bigots who see Palestinians as “brown-skinned” killers and nothing else.

Posted by NeoConservative_HAWK on Nov 13, 2004 at 1:07 PM

Actually cheryl,

The arabs attacked the jewish enclaves and settlers LONG before there was an isreal. This occured as far back as the late nineteenth century.  THe only thing that kept the violence down was their mutual oppression by the ottomans.  The attacks increased as the arabs grew increasingly alarmed by the increasing numbers of jews.  Then as now, some jews wanted to be nice to the arabs, some wanted to slit their throats for the, it should be obvious to all readers now, famously common arab practice of deliberately killing innocent civilians.  (As Muslims are learning in the Netherlands right now, when you kill non-violent westerners, the west doesn’t get scared, it gets angry.) The brits tried to keep the cycle of violence down, but that proved costly as the zionists used terror to get the brits out of palistine.  When the UN granted isreal statehood, goofy arab thug armies gathered around a tiny nation of refugees and religious nuts.  This little nation saw them coming a mile away.  So did the palistian arabs, who were warned by the goofy arab thugs to leave.  Many did so.  Many who choose to stay were forcibly deported by the religious nut - isrealis.  Both stories are true, as every isreali seems to admit.

Posted by shawn harper on Nov 13, 2004 at 1:14 PM

Cheryl,are you mssing the right side of your brain? Did you not understand what I was writting about? And to all: Sstdy the real history of the area and you will see that most Palestininas came from Egypt and what is now Syria. And yes lets talk about population transfers. 600,000 jews were expelled from Arab contries during the last 60 years. 700,000 arabs left what is now Israel and the West bank in the same period. This 600,000 Jews prospered because Israel and the world-wide jewish community helped them. The palestinians were left to rot in squalid camps denied citizenship in Iraq, Syria, Jordan and Lebanon, so that there plight can be used against Israel. Turkey and Greece exchanged populations, so did Islamabab and New Delhi, among the many countries that have done it. Thee is nothing worng in it. Additionally, the Palestinians already have a country and its called Jordan. Correct me if I am worng, but what is now Jordan was part of the original Palestine mandate and furthermore the Palestinians are the majority. Just an additional fact so that we understand the mentality of the Arabs. Did you know that it is illegal for Jews to live in Jordan? Trest form of racism.

Posted by Elliott on Nov 13, 2004 at 1:25 PM

Dear NeoConsevative_HAWK,

Isn’t this fun?  You are wrong.  I may be a moron, but as a white man I have been blamed for the plight of many more peoples than just the palistinians.  Or brown-skinned folks.  I have been held responsible for the plight of red skinned and black skinned people.  I am used to this tactic, the tactic of a moron.

It wasn’t ME!!!  Oh, well.  If you read my last post, you will see that I do not listen to EVERYTHING my Zionist masters tell me.  And even THEY cannot be everywhere at all times.  I am still allowed to read your information-filled posts, for example.

I do not love the isrealis much.  I DO hate islamic fundementalists though, and the isrealis are good allies in our war.  They do need to be watched, though.  Just like I need watching from time to time.  Moron.

Posted by shawn harper on Nov 13, 2004 at 1:30 PM

Cheryl,

I wished “my” greatgrandparents were “Just” tortured.

You holocust denier.

Posted by mark on Nov 13, 2004 at 1:30 PM

I really do not undestand how world leaders could have sent their condolences to such a corrupt and barbaric leader such as arafat. What the world does not seem to understand is that Arafat absolutely never wanted any peace with Israel and that throughout his entire existance as the leader of the PLO all he did was breed terrorism used his own people and especially children to kill themselves in the name of “honour” and sent a cheque to those families for their “righteous deeds”. NO big loss without arafat- all he was a corrupt leader attempting to look like he wanted peace.  I just CAN’T understand how a whole nation can believe such crazy ideologies, and inhummaine behavior.  You will only see an ARAB or a PALESTINIAN killing their own people because they do not value life only hate and death. You will never, ever, ever see an israeli citizen or a jew kill their own people.  WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU?  The sad relaity is that I do not ever forsee peace in the middle east, I do not believe that the Arab world is decent nor honest and everything they stand for is a discrace to their own people.  It is also a crime that good muslims, and Arabs have to suffer and have their name ruined because of these criminals that get away with murder and distruction.

Posted by Mary on Nov 13, 2004 at 1:37 PM

Mary,

They sent their condolences because he was a head of state, that’s all.  It’s politics.  I remember when the isrealis assasinated one of the leaders of hamas.  The western media then immediately found one of this hamas guy’s cousins and interviewed him.  Interesting guy.  They asked him if he thought isreal would kill afafat next.  He said “no way.  The sharon govt won’t kill arafat because they don’t want peace.”  There may be a lot of truth to that.  Certain parties benefit from a state of war.  It happens again and again.  If you look closely at arafat and Sharon, neither would have any real political relevence without hateful arabs and fearful isrealis.  Sharon is possibly upset that arafat is dead, because if there is one thing that is true about this article, pressure will be on him to engage the palistinians if they pick a guy who can bring something back to the palistinians.  Fortunately for him, the arabs countries pick their leaders by letting them slice each other up, the most ruthless and bloodthirsty guy is the one left standing, and he is the new leader.  The smart ones leave the country.

Posted by shawn harper on Nov 13, 2004 at 1:51 PM

Shawn, it still irks me that the media does not even make arafat look half as bad as he was. What’s your take on that?

Posted by Mary on Nov 13, 2004 at 1:58 PM

Mary,

Of course it does.  They don’t tell the truth about him out of respect for the plight of the palistinians and out of a desire not to offend arabs everywhere.  Arabs know thier leaders are corrupt better than anyone, but they don’t like outsiders pointing it out to them.

Posted by shawn harper on Nov 13, 2004 at 2:07 PM

Elliott, you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about.  Let’s take your points in order:

<<most Palestininas came from Egypt and what is now Syria>>

You probably got this factoid from Joan Peters book, “From Time Immemorial”, a book which has been totally discredited.  Anyway, it’s not true.  When the Zionists first came to Palestine,  Palestine was predominantly Arab.  They had been living there for centuries.  As I said in my post above, on the eve of the Balfour mandate, Palestine was still 90% Arab, even after more than two decades of Jewish emigration.  A small number of Arabs from Syria may have emigrated to Palestine between 1917 & 1947, but they were a tiny minority. 

<<600,000 jews were expelled from Arab contries during the last 60 years. 700,000 arabs left what is now Israel and the West bank in the same period.>>

It’s not true to say this happened in the “same time period.” The ethnic cleansing of 600.000 to 720.000 Palestinians from Israel *preceded* the Jewish exodus from Arab countries. The exodus of some 125.000 Iraqi Jews to Israel started in 1949; that of about 165.000 North-African Jews took place as late as 1955-1957. It is therefore somewhat awkward to claim that Israel had deported its Arabs because of the exodus of Arab Jews that occurred years later.
Also, without minimzing the horrible persecution that Arab Jews faced after 1948, it’s not true that most of them were expelled; rather, most of them fled because of persecution.

<<This 600,000 Jews prospered because Israel and the world-wide jewish community helped them.>> 

Again, you’re drawing a false parallel. From a Jewish-Zionist point of view, the immigration of the Jews of the Arab countries to Israel, expelled or not, was the fulfillment of a national dream — the “ingathering of the exiles.” Since the 1930s the Jewish Agency had sent agents, teachers, and instructors to the various Arab countries in order to propagate Zionism. They organized Zionist youth movements there and illegal immigration to Palestine.

For the Palestinian Arabs the flight of 1948 was completely different. It resulted in an unwanted national calamity, the collapse of the Palestinian community, and the fragmentation of a people.

Furthermore, blaming the Arabs of ethnic cleansing is shamefully cynical when it is imputed by the very Zionists who demanded “let my people go”, or by the same Israel that did all it could to force those very countries to let their Jews leave.

<<The palestinians were left to rot in squalid camps denied citizenship in Iraq, Syria, Jordan and Lebanon, so that there plight can be used against Israel.>>

While the Arab countries have indeed treated the Palestinian refugees badly, they are not the primary source of the problem.  The primary problem is that, for the last 56 years, Palestinians have wanted to return to their homes, but have been denied that right by the Israelis.  I agree that Palestinians will have give up the right of return for the sake of peace, but let’s not forget who’s responsible for that problem.   

<<Turkey and Greece exchanged populations, so did Islamabab and New Delhi, among the many countries that have done it. Thee is nothing worng in it Turkey and Greece exchanged populations, so did Islamabab and New Delhi, among the many countries that have done it.>>

You sound a lot like Slobodan Milosevic…

<<Additionally, the Palestinians already have a country and its called Jordan. Correct me if I am worng, but what is now Jordan was part of the original Palestine mandate and furthermore the Palestinians are the majority.>>

Again, you are wrong.  The basis for the “Jordan is Palestine” claim is that Transjordan was attached to Palestine for the first eight months of the British Mandate.  Otherwise, Palestine & Jordan have been culturally, geographically and politically distinct.  Jordan does a large Palestinian population, but all the power belongs in Hashemite/Beduoin hands.

Even if you consider Jordan to be a Palestinian state, it doesn’t excuse the occupation and colonization of the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and East Jerusalem and the denial of any rights to the 3 million Palestinians living there.

Posted by Peter on Nov 13, 2004 at 2:37 PM

Peter,

I have no tolerance for intellegent, smart people on this thread.  GET OFF! 

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought most of these arab states were “engineered” by the brits, somewhat similiar to your yugoslavia analogy.

BTW, the excuse for the isrealis taking land from the palistinians was never that “Jordan is the palistinian homeland”.  The excuse is that the isreali population centers need a buffer from people who act like jews used to thousands of years ago in the old testament.  “And then god said: go into their lands and kill them and keep the virgins.” or something similar.

Posted by shawn harper on Nov 13, 2004 at 2:50 PM

Sorry folks,

my zionist masters just called…I am needed elsewhere.  Jeeze, you’ve got to run pretty fast to keep one step ahead of those illiterate, willfully ignorant jew-haters.

Posted by Shawn Harper on Nov 13, 2004 at 3:20 PM

NeoConservative Hawk accuses me of being a racist by stating that Arabs are unified. Well, ever heard about Pan-Arabism,a wide spread Arab movement that preaches solidarity among all Arabs, as espoused by numerous parties in the Arab world. Yet, the Arabs refused to create a Palestinian state when they had the opportunity from 1948 through 1967. Likewise they have refused to absorb Palestinian refugees. In Lebanon, Palestinians are denied to work in as many as 70 professions and are discriminated against. The Arab world abuses the Palestinians just to make them miserable and grow up with hate. Note that Australia and Norway received vietnamese boat people. Israel accepted Ethiopians.  The Arab world dislikes Palestinians and treats them shameleslly in their own countries. So the message is simple, peace in the middle-east requires a true acceptance of Jews in the middle East, as owners of their land and not as second class citizens. Israel is a threat to Arab governments because it houses democratic institutions. Erik

Posted by Erik Freund on Nov 13, 2004 at 8:01 PM

The difficulties in finding a solution are clearly defined by the rhetoric flying around in here.

In order for this to be solved, the Torahs and the Korans are going to have to be put away.

The religious issues are simply not going to be solved in the MODERN world…because the only religious solution is the subjugation or destruction of one or other of these peoples.

The grown ups are going to have to COMPROMISE. And in a compromise…neither side will ever be completely happy. But if either side is REALLY interested in peace, then that is what they have to accept. PERIOD.

I understand the emotion and history tied up in Jerusalem. But the fact is that it’s either declared an international city…which I don’t agree with because I certainly don’t view it with the same level of religious intensity as both these parties (I’m a Catholic). But it is deeply felt by both these parties. And HONESTLY, both parties have a legitimate claim.

President Clinton’s plan wasn’t the first time that the idea of splitting the city was broached. But that solution is the kind of “King Solomon” solution that really comes close to emotionally satisfying both parties.

Israel has agreed to trade land. They’ve said it on numerous occassions, and rightly so. I’m sure in their hearts the Isrealis understand and appreciate the Palestinians need and RIGHT to a homeland, given Israel’s own history.

The ongoing bloodshed has become completely futile. It solves nothing for either side, and only provides cannon fodder for the extremists on both sides.

It’s time to put the guns away.

Posted by Liberal but Proud on Nov 13, 2004 at 8:05 PM

Setting aside the emotionalism on the various sides, there are only a few main possible outcomes in this crisis:

1) solidification of some form of partition into two-states
Variant A) Busharon version with settlers on WB and with or without wall.
Variant B) Gush Shalom’s version: 2-states, no wall, no settlers

2) Ethnic cleansing by Jews of Palestinians out of West Bank

3) Islamic state: removal of Jews and Christians from Israel and WB

4) Binational state

My view:
Option 1 is very unstable and can only be a temporary solution since Palestinian economy and land is so weak and undesirable

Will not remove drivers for Options 2 and 3.

Option 2, “Transfer”, favored by Avigdor Lieberman and sadly a high percentage of Israelis (consistently a majoriy of Israeli Jews), will lead inevitably to a all-gloves off struggle for Option 3.

Option 3, unlikely while the US retains sufficient power, could become more likely if a trade off is needed to secure broader peace in larger region for securing global economic life blood.

Option 4, Binational State, is the only outcome which could afford some stability, allow Jews to remain in the region, provide Palestinians with a viable economic life, and would provide Jews a connection to Arabs which could bridge a very prosperous future throughout the Arab world.

Of course, it means the end of Israel as a Jewish state, but this is also inevitable due to demographic changes of birth and death rates.

I am Jewish, speak some Hebrew, a former president of my university’s Hillel, someone who has visited and done business in Israel over a dozen occasions.

Like Avraham Burg, the former Speaker of the Israeli Knesset, I favor a single, binational state.
Call it Palesrael.
One Person, One Vote, One State

Posted by Jewish Palestinian on Nov 13, 2004 at 11:01 PM

Liberal,
What’s going on in the West Bank and Gaza is nothing like what the Nazi’s did.  By making ridiculous comparisons like that you de-value what could otherwise be a useful discussion.

Actually, what’s going on in the West Bank and Gaza is exactly like what the Nazi’s did - what they did before 1941 when they came up with the infamous ‘final solution’.

Nazi 1935 Nurnberg Laws revoked citizenship from the German Jews, which is exactly the status of the Palestinians on the territories. Before 1941 the Nazis were trying to expell Jews from Germany (and take their property) by terrorizing them, which is exactly what the Likudniks are doing to the Palestinians on the territories.

It’s very similar and the motive is the same - ethnic hatred.

Thanks.

Posted by monarch on Nov 14, 2004 at 5:27 AM

I can’t believe Ringo Starr is dead!

Posted by Neil on Nov 14, 2004 at 9:05 AM

You don’t understand that Mary is because YOUR BLIND! No Israeli supporter can ever seem to understand how much Arafat meant to his people. It’s shear hatred and character assassination that was scapegoated on him was unimaginable.

His biggest flaw was to EVER SIGN THE ‘93 Oslo accords which vanquished Palestinian peoples right to return to their homeland, gave up their dignity, and their cherished freedom which are under “checkpoints” and “assassinations.”

Posted by NeoConservative_HAWK on Nov 14, 2004 at 5:21 PM

Its interesting to see the robotic efficiency with which Israel aupporters respond to any criticism of Israel in the media, even the most mild criticsm like this article. Was an AIPAC action alert sent out? Is this writer to now be labelled with the “self-hating Jew” slander? Or did I already miss the post where someone said that? Its amazing how desperate the Zionists are to control the information flow. That alone should tell you something.

Posted by Michael on Nov 14, 2004 at 10:34 PM

Spin it all the way you want, but never forget that so long as there is an occupation, there will be resistance. Ask de Gaul and Mandela..

Posted by Jim on Nov 14, 2004 at 10:45 PM

Richard Julis seems to think he know plenty about the Armenias genocide and how it relates to Israel, and the holocaust of WWII.  Well how about this: each time the American congress discussed acknowleding the Turkish atrocity against the Armenians, declaring it a genocide, the Turkish government went to their closest ME ally,  Israel, and got the Israelis to direct their lobbies in Washington DC to make sure that acknowledgment of this genocide wouldn’t be accepted.  Israel’s lobbies always win in DC.  If you support Israel, you are no friend of the Armenians.

Posted by mar on Nov 15, 2004 at 1:37 AM

To Michael:

If you miss something, I’ll help you: yes, the author is a self-hating jew.  And you might be also if you repeat that anti-Semitic garbage about Jews controlling media, finances, etc.
Your post alone tells that about you.

V.I.

Posted by V.I. on Nov 15, 2004 at 2:31 AM

I’m back.

Neocon,

If you are an arab, I’ll forgive you.  If you are an american, arab or otherwise, I have to ask you to please spell the contraction of ‘you are’ “you’re,” as in “you’re a moron.” Please stop with the “your blind!” stuff.

Arafat never needed anyone to assasinate his character for him.  Unlike Osama, Arafat appears so obviously shifty and corrupt in his interviews that he is just an embarrassment to anyone he represents.  Perhaps THAT is why those isrealis kept him alive so long, to keep the palistinians looking so shabby.  Maybe he was an isreali agent…  The truth is that even Arafat knows that the isrealis could kill every palistinian in the area in a matter of weeks if they wanted to.  This is something that the sudanese ARABS have not been able to accomplish with their current genocide. They’ve had ten years to kill their blacks, and even have the arab league defending them, yet they haven’t go the job done.  Typical.  Even arafat knew that a living palistian is better than a “dignified” palistian rotting in the street, which would only take a few days to accomplish if the isrealis decided to act like arabs.

MICHEAL,

I did not get any AIPAC action alert.  Arafat’s passing has got a lot of press.  This article was linked to the YAHOO article.  I am not jewish. I used to make fun of jewish people when I was a kid.  Now I make fun of Islamic fundementalists.  Yes, there are a lot of Jewish folks in high positions in the media… but you know, there’s a lot of jews in high positions in medicine, in orchrestras, in western governments, banking and trade.  This is because they are smart and competent, and they know how to do things besides sell oil and blow stuff up.  If you want to be a critic of a controled media, why don’t you pick on the government controled media in the arab world, and the fact that arab journalists with half a brain are terrified to write anything critical of the islamists because goofy illiterate relious people who only know how to kill people in a sloppy way crawl out like cockroaches to kill these brave men and women. Moron.

Posted by shawn harper on Nov 15, 2004 at 5:21 AM

I expect the stooges in the U.S. government and the media will continue to participate in the dissemination of Israeli propanganda. Like the wacko fundamentalists that control Bush the, equally crazy Zionists that control Israeli foreign policy are the real obstacles to peace. However, a brainwashed and brain dead American public is fed and digests a continuous barrage of lies and myths.

One myth was that Arafat had a chance for peace and refused it at Camp David; when, in reality, both sides wanted further negotiations and the peace process broke down at Saba when Mr. barak walked out. Arafat by recognizing Israel gave up seventy-eight percent of Palestinian land so the negotiations were only over twenty-two percent of the land and Israel did not include East Jerusalem but substituted the Dead Sea, and said they were willing to give up ninety five percent of the land.Even if it were 95 percent, which it was not, it would have been 95 percent of twenty two percent.

Another lie is the so called security fence. It is not a security fence at all; it is part of what has been called the matrix of control whereby Israeli infrastructue divides the West Bank into cantons and by so doing control the access to water and every aspect of Palestinian life. The Palestinians occupy discontiuous patches of land and are virtually confined to concentration camps.

There will never be a chance for peace as long as Bush, Sharon, and their Christian Fundamentalist-Zionist minions are in power.

But, no matter how they try to demonize Mr. Arafat his greatness lies in the fact that he refused to be defined by the Israelis who opined that there was no such thing as a Palestinian. Arafat defined a Palestinian cause and a Palestinian dream that will some day come to pass.

Posted by John Dente on Nov 15, 2004 at 5:29 AM

Where did I make a comparison of any of this to the holocaust?

You want to disagree with me? Fine. You don’t like my opinions? Fine.

But don’t put words in my mouth.

Posted by Liberal and Proud on Nov 15, 2004 at 6:37 AM

Thanks people, this gave me a funny reading. All this name calling and such… Remembered me my good old high school time.

Anyways…

RIP old man. You were a warrior, a symbol and many will miss you. Even our enemies who will have no-one to target for a time. If only the religious nuts had not killed Rabin, you might have been able to see your state in peace before your death.

Posted by Vanedor on Nov 15, 2004 at 6:47 AM

Hawk, michael, mar, John Dente, you are old-fashioned anti-Semites…try to be a bit more original in your hate mongering…the “Jews Control Everything” slur is getting pretty dated.  If you really believe this, consider getting some professional help…paranoid delusions are easily treated these days.

monarch: hating people who kill your children and want you and your families dead is not ethnic hatred…it’s sanity.  Personally, I’m not fond of the Likudniks and think the settlers are religious kooks.  However, until recently, they were fringe elements of Israeli culture.  The MAINSTREAM Palestinians (and much of the Arab world) preach open hatred and glorify the murder of Jews and Americans…these are not nice, misunderstood folks, these are cold-blooded killers teaching their kids to be the same.  You can try to blame it all on the Jews, but then I’ll suspect your name belonged in the list above. 

Taking responsibility for your own actions is usually a good first step towards solving problems.  Israel has plenty of problems on their side that need to be addressed (as I said earlier).  There is already quite a bit of introspection on the Jewish side and if the Arabs made even a half-hearted attempt to look reasonable, the Jewish doves would win-out. 

However, all the Israelis see is children with AK-47 toys chanting “kill the Jews” and parents saying they wish they had more kids to turn into suicide bombers…no sane person is likely to feel dovish about those folks.  The Arabs need to do some introspection.

Shawn, nicely put…rock on!

Posted by Liberal AND Proud on Nov 15, 2004 at 7:08 AM

Vanedor, warriors do not target women, children, and non-combatants…we call those folks cowards and murderers. 

I hope the Palestinian people choose a real leader and build a state that can exist side-by-side with Israel.  However, as long as they continue to pick corrupt and cowardly leaders such as Arafat, they are doomed to continue the lousy existance they suffer now. 

Their Arab “brothers” continue to use the plight of the Palestinians to distract their own populations from corrupt governments plundering the natural resources while leaving the Arab populations poor and uneducated.  They incite violence and pay the “martyrs” while refusing Palestinians work or entry permits to help lessen their suffering.

Arafat was a disaster for the Palestinian people and a symbol of all that is wrong in that region.  We can only hope their next leader is different (and that he/she will inspire the Israeli’s to choose a real leader too).

Posted by Liberal AND Proud on Nov 15, 2004 at 7:22 AM

Some of those jewish women are pretty tough…

I am the king of the name callers!  I prefer to call names than make rational arguement!

Stooges?  I’m a stooge?  I’d rather be a Stooge of isreal (if that were possible, how much are they paying?) than a palistian stooge of the mullahs.  The mullahs smile as they strap bombs to the bodies of palistian childeren.  They used palistinian murder squads to kill moderates and monarchist in iran—and I’ll bet they didn’t pay well.  If the mullahs in iran wanted to hire me, they’d have to pay me VERY well.  The pay ME very well for being the lighting rod for muslim hate.  They’ve obviously got a lot of hate to go around, Arafat even called Sadat a Quisling and called for his asassination 2 years before the islamists did it. I’d rather they spend a lot of that hate on the jews than on me and my family.  They are always calling each other stooges for outsider groups and killing each other.  It works over there so they think it works here, where we just laugh at them.  I call liberals blind morons, but I look for documentation before I call them stooges of the mullahs.  Where as they run around shooting into crowd of thier own people, like they did yesterday.  Unless that was more zionist propaganda. I don’t have to tell you what these people are like, they’re like the people who killed rabin, but bigger morons.

Posted by shawn harper on Nov 15, 2004 at 7:47 AM

Yes, Arafat did use the “terror option,” and if you take a principled stance on such methods (i.e. if you also condemn Israel’s use of terror in 1948, in Sharon’s reprisal attacks on civilians in the 1950s, in 1979 with the indiscriminate shelling of villages in Lebanon that killed thousands, and the most massive deliberate attacks on civilan populations in the history of the world, carried out by the US in 1945), then by all means condemn him as well.
But history will record his astonishing accomplishments, turning a dispersed, defeated, dispossessed people, whose cause Israel, the US, and the “front-line” Arab states would have liked to sweep under the rug, into a legitimate, unified, and fiercely independent national movement.  The compromise that Arafat and others in the Fatah leadership adopted in the mid-1970s, of a two-state solution along the pre-1967 border, and which they worked tirelessly to sell to the Palestinian people (and in many cases were killed by rival Palestinian groups, is now the position of every nation in the world, with the exception of Israel and the US.
It is now the world’s only superpower that is isolated in the Middle East, while the Palestinians, who barely existed when Arafat started, have the whole world behind them.
Long after Bush and Sharon are minor footnotes, historians will marvel at the accomplishments of Arafat and his people.

Posted by Daniel on Nov 15, 2004 at 8:04 AM

Daniel,
  It says alot about your ethics that you consider terror an “option”; I hope no one chooses that “option” for you or your family. 
  I am not a fan of Bush or Sharon.  If Sharon attacked civilians, he is a terrorist too and I condemn him…I think I mentioned that I think the Israelis (and Americans) need new and better leaders too.
  Perhaps you can refresh my memory as to when in the 1970s Arafat and Fatah were keen (in Arabic) on a two-state solution along pre-1967 borders.  They have at various times duped the West into thinking they might consider it while in Arabic always re-assuring their constituents that their goal remained the destruction of Israel…it was part of their charter!  Your statement is tough to believe in view of the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. 
  As for the world being behind the Arabs, this is not a new situation for Jews and I don’t think they care much about it anymore.  The “world community” lost their right to cast ethical aspersions when they sat back and watched the Jews get slaughtered refusing even to provide sanctuary for refugees.  These are the same self-righteous cowards who recently sat back and watched the Tutsis get slaughtered by the Hutus and then stepped in after the Tutsis made a miraculous come-back to make sure the Hutus were protected.  They’re the same ones who stood by while Saddam Hussein used chemical weapons against the Kurds.  Are these the defenders of ethics you refer to?
  As for history, Arafat brought attention to the national aspirations of the Palestinains, but his brutal and unethical means have kept them from achieving their state.  Ghandi was a giant; MLK was a giant, Mandella is a giant, Arafat was a scumbag; the world and the Palestinians are much better off without him.

Posted by Liberal AND Proud on Nov 15, 2004 at 8:52 AM

Oh…that’s the reason.

Someone else is using my nom de plueur.

I thought NO ONE ELSE IN AMERICA would admit to being a liberal.

Posted by Liberal and Proud on Nov 15, 2004 at 9:09 AM

how can 1 country invade another and then bleat to the rest of the world it dont want peace ,peace shouldnt even come into it. its jus another excuse saying that arafat stood in the way of any peace.as long as the americans use israel to further they aims in the middles east i fear more blood shed for the palistinians

Posted by jay on Nov 15, 2004 at 9:11 AM

Good points daniel.

I certainly do condemn the jews who used terror against britian.  It was not isreal, but the hard core militant zionists who did this.  There was no isreal then.  Sharon was a bastard back then.  And he’s probably not much better now.  Lebanon is a complicated matter, as both sides have targeted civilians in the conflict there.  The isrealis are simply better at it, but unfortunately, they are held back by the US and their own squeemishness, which is exploited by the muslims to give them time to regroup and rearm.  They should just conquer them, as that would be easier and bring more peace in the long run.  I don’t know how I feel about the US last military actions in WWII (other than our complete reconstruction of Germany and Japan)  I think it was wrong, even though the Japs attacked us first.  We did a lot of ugly things during WWII.  We also bombed the hell out of German population centers.  We killed prisoners sometimes.  But the sooner we ended that war, the better.  I especially do not like the dropping of atomic weapons because I think it was more sending a lesson to stalin than it was to get the japs to surrender, which they were considering already.  As all you arabs should take note of, surrendering to the americans was the smartest things the japanesse have ever done.  Look at their country now.  Second largest economy in the world, I think.

But I am so tired of this liberal: Castro has outlasted a whole bunch of american presidents crap.  So did Stalin, so did arafat, so did saddam.  Big deal.  We have term limits.  We are smart enough not to trust our leaders for more than eight years, regardless of who.  Plus, these guys aren’t elected anyway, so it’s easy to stay in power if you’re ruthless enough and sleep lightly.  I’ve got news for you: we’re all going to be minor footnotes in history—and if reincarnation in the cards for us, it’s very, very likely we will come back as an indian or a chinese.  The way the arabs have been pissing off the rest of the world, it’s not too likely they’re gonna come back as arabs.  But I don’t believe this stuff anyway.

Posted by shawn harper on Nov 15, 2004 at 9:16 AM

How pathetic that we miss the real issue on all the dicusion. RELIGION. Voila! Fundamentalists on both sides, with the minons moron politicians vomit hate in every word the speak.

Pretend that religious intolerance is only Muslin is just a joke. In a teocratic democracy as Israel is, who calls the shots are the religious freaks always influence by the right wing fascist under the cover of orthodox religious creed.

Let have secular states, let have a strict division between religion a state…but I am affraid for their minds, with the exception of few, are allready poissoned.

Do not let religion pervert the message of peace or love or science. Stop their parasit social status, have all those orthodoxes fundamentalist in madrasas and yeshivas work as anyone else.

“Traditional Jewish and Muslim laws also operate on the assumption that indiscriminate mingling of the sexes will destroy the social order. To avoid this, both communities structure daily life so that men and women are effectively separated from one another. Work, amusement, travel, even family relations are rigorously regulated. The Halakha requires men not to gaze at women; Muslims restrict contact between by isolating women from male spaces through the veil and harem. Males and females each inhabit their own sharply defined societies; the two sexes rarely deal with each other freely and familiarly, especially in Muslim society.

These sex regulations are more consistently enforced by the rich and the city-dwellers; the poor cannot afford them. Thus the impression exists that Judaism and Islam are preeminently middle-class, urban religions. For both, the city merchant came to epitomize the pious believer - an irony, for the Halakha and Shari’a both stringently prohibit usury, forcing merchants to contrive legal fictions in order to charge interest. As long as the letter of the law is fulfilled, the Jew or Muslim has acted correctly; here especially, it is the deed, not the intention which prevails.”

Posted by Mustafa Rabin on Nov 15, 2004 at 9:27 AM

To Daniel:

Your post is a lousy propaganda and I’ll show you why:
Arafat did not use the “terror option”, it was his ONLY option.  Otherwise nobody in the world would even noticed that group of Arab settelrs in Judea and Samaria who were proclaimed by Arab lendlords and Arab Moslem fanatics a “Palestinian people”.
Jewish people did not use terror in 1948.  Can you bring up facts of a such terror?  You can’t.
But Arabs used terror against Jews; example?
When five Arab states attacked state of Israel in 1948, the REGULAR ARMY OF EGYPT destroyed all Jewish villiges and murdered all inhabitants in those villages on its way.

You are talking about “Sharon’s reprisal attackes on civilians in 1950s”... You are either don’t know what you are talking about or you are a vicious hypocrite.  “Civilians” who murdered Jewish children in schools are not “civilians” even if they murder “only” at night, but in day time are “peaceful civilians”.  They are MURDERERS and Sharon dealt with them as such.

You are talking about “indiscriminate shelling of villages in Lebanon in 1979”... Again cheap propaganda…  It is exactly those villages from which “peaceful Arabs” sneaked into Israel to murder Jewish children.

Arafat’s “astonishing accomplishments” in fact those that he showd that TERRORISM WORKS. It is really astonishing that so-called “international community” applaused to the muss murderer of Jews.
His “accomplishments”, with the complicity of “international (anti-Semitic) community”, brougth us to September 11th.  But it’s nothing unusual; as alwyas, it is just started with the Jews…

You are ignorantly talkig about “pre-1967 border”...  It is not the border, it is CEASE FIRE LINE. 

Mixing the terms and re-writing the history, your kind want people to forget about the history and plain human decency.  In vain…

Historians will “marvel at the accomplishents of Arafat and his people” as much as they marvel accomplishments of Adolf Hitler and “his people”.

Posted by V.I. on Nov 15, 2004 at 9:30 AM

A LIST OF JEWISH SCUMS-thanks to WRH-best infosite
***********
The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more”.... Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time - August 28, 2000. Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000

” [The Palestinians are] beasts walking on two legs.” Menahim Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, “Begin and the Beasts”. New Statesman, 25 June 1982.

“The Palestinians” would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls.” ” Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

“When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle.” Raphael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defence Forces, New York Times, 14 April 1983.

“How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to.” Golda Maier, March 8, 1969.

“There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed.” Golda Maier Israeli Prime Minister June 15, 1969

David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): “If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?” Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.

Ben Gurion also warned in 1948 : “We must do everything to insure they ( the Palestinians) never do return.” Assuring his fellow Zionists that Palestinians will never come back to their homes. “The old will die and the young will forget.”

“We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves.” Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.
*******FREE PALESTINE OF THE JEWISH BIGHT ******
My take—IsraOil
Like it folks but the Jews in Palestine do not belong there.Most Israel Jews are from Russia origin.Just because they call themselves whiteHebs,does not make them landlords. These white phonie Jews are not the original Jews or any blood line from the middle east.Just money hungry gypsies,taken a dead religion and used it to for personnal gain.The only religion—if you got ooddles of money and enfluence,you are allowed to join the jewish club.Try to convert to their religion and see them throw you out.Jews are racists!
Most of the above posters,who have blinders, ought to read some history.Before Isreal was created,the Brits allowed some Jews into Palestine.Good people of Palestine welcome them.However,the greedy Jews wanted more of their clan to come.Brits decided to place a quota—98,000 a year. Not enough says the Jews. Brits could see the Arab up rising. The invader Jews got support from the american Jewish industrialists—guns bombs money.
King David hotel—Brits stationed in the hotel got the biggist blast—200+ dead.
A large milk truck was loaded with explosives and driven under the hotel.Later, the jewish(freedom fighters) thugs,caught several Brit officiers and executed them and left them hinging and strung up onto the olive trees. Once the Brits came to retreive them—-the whole area blew up.
So Bull shittttters, anyone that tells me that the jews are such lovable creatures are full of it.Arafat was the true freedom fighter.
EVERY MAJOR WAR CAN BE TRACED TO THE JEWS.Sad but these people need control. America and Britin are in deep Do Do.Please read about the U.S.S Liberty-UGLY Americans are stupid as the English.

Posted by george on Nov 15, 2004 at 9:54 AM

Mustafa - good points.  Religion has been an effective tool in controlling the peoples of the middle east (and most of the rest of the world).  However, I don’t think you can blame religion (including the misogynism present in orthodox Judeo-Christian-Islam) for the present situation there.

The middle east conflict is about oil and politics.  The Arab states are run by dictators who line their pockets and the pockets of their clans at the expense of the great majority of their Arab bretheren.  They use the tried-and-true methods of scapegoating (Jews are always good for this, but Kurds, Armenians, and Persians work well too) and religion to keep their masses from paying attention to the corruption at home.

Nothing will change there until either the oil runs out or the Arabs overthrow their corrupt dictators.

Posted by Liberal AND Proud on Nov 15, 2004 at 9:57 AM

george, you should really go back on your medication.

Posted by Liberal AND Proud on Nov 15, 2004 at 10:02 AM

Liber—you are not very nice,you need some eduacation—like a trip to the back of our shad.Big whack across the rump will do you good.Wake-up goof—-people are getting killed-for what? ISRAOIL.
Are you so mental you can not see the evil in Jews.None what I said is untrue—what is your problem goofball?

Posted by george on Nov 15, 2004 at 10:22 AM

I like you Mustafa Rabin!!!  I don’t care if you are jewish or muslim.  I hate these clerical castes too—and so did Jesus!!

Just look at what the papists did to everyone in europe in the middle ages:  They killed anyone they found (execpt for the official clerics, of course) with a bible. (They didn’t want anyone to see what jesus really said.)  Look at the cycles of violence as england changed from a catholic to a protestant country.  Learn from our history, our mistakes!!

All you arabs and persians should wake up to the fact that your real problems aren’t the jews, it’s the political clerics.  Give them power, and people die.  A lot of people.  We in america could even learn some lessons from france about this: you preach religious hate there - they kick you out of the country.  People we released from guantomino bay were immediately thrown in jail upon their arrival in france, no trial, no new crimes, no lawyer, no nothin’.

Posted by shawn harper on Nov 15, 2004 at 10:29 AM

George,

Those are some interesting quotes.  And I believe them.  But you are still a moron.  And a goof.

The isrealis have no great love and respect for the palistinians, that’s true.  But neither do the Lebanese arab muslims.  Or any other arabs for that matter, who view palistianians as second class, at best.  They only like the palistinians when matters of isreal are the topic at hand.

Occasionally you can find some examples of isrealis saying mean things about the palistinians, but the way average palistinians act and talk ......... if I was jewish I’d kill every last one of them.  UN be darned.

Posted by shawn harper on Nov 15, 2004 at 10:37 AM

George, I guess my problem is that my eduAcation (your word) came through travel and reading and in universities rather than behind a shad (your word).

The problem with getting an EDUCATION is that it helps you understand the world around you better.  If you can read, you might want to try broadening your horizons beyond the neo-Nazi literature you seem to be drowning in.  If you learn a little about the world outside your militia, you might find alot of nice people from a variety of backgrounds (including even Jews!) who might help you become a better person.

...and I apologize for the comment about medication…you’re correct, it’s not nice…I shouldn’t lump hateful racist scum together with the many good folks who just suffer from mental illnesses.

Posted by Liberal AND Proud on Nov 15, 2004 at 10:41 AM

oy vey.
Europeans have been killing each other throughout history. It isn’t even over in the Balkans.
The United States had a civil war. No one who has power over another or who attempts to gain it is “peaceful”. When the US gov’t was pushing the Indians further and further west, was it the Indians who didn’t want peace?  Take away Israel’s biblically claimed right to exist and they have only the same excuse that anyone has - they have the military power to exist. Since they have inspired the hatred of the 100 million + Arabs who are their neighbors they had best hope that they always have that power - demography is not on their side, however. What does our alliance with Israel, and now imitation of Israel, do for the US strategically? How does being friends with 6 million Israelis make up for creating bitter enmity in a billion muslims? You may claim moral superiority, but if no one else believes you it is spitting into the wind. All those pictures flowing out of Falluja and Abu Ghraib make an awfully big loogy.

Posted by George Knightly on Nov 15, 2004 at 10:42 AM

Shawn—you don’t need medication—-just lots of loving from mama!Did you know that the first most settlers arriving in america were convicts.France rounded up prostutes and sent most to the new americas.What a wonderful sinister breed developed. Dr. Frankinstien would love to copy them.It would of save him from shoveling graves-for the dead!

Posted by george on Nov 15, 2004 at 10:45 AM

George K., they say you can judge a person by the friends they keep.  While Israel and the US are certainly not paragons of virtue, they are far far better than the corrupt dictatorial hateful regimes in the Arab world.  I’m pretty sure you would be alot happier living in the US or in Israel than in Saudi Arabia or Gaza.

By your logic, we should have allied with Stalin and Mao since there were billions of Communist Chinese and Soviets…many more than in the few western democracies…so what if they were brutal dictators? Do you have any ethics or are you purely guided by demographics?

Posted by Liberal AND Proud on Nov 15, 2004 at 10:53 AM

In this whole string of comments, I’ve seen a lot of overgeneralization on all sides, lots of narrowing people down to “Israelis,” “Arabs,” “Jews,” “Palestinians,” or _whatever_.  I hear that so much these days in so many contexts, and you know what it leads to?  More of the same old shit, humans fighting and bickering or even outright killing each other because it keeps going around and around.  Frankly, I think that is what will be the biggest obstacle to peace in the Middle East, or almost anywhere in the world you care to name, for that matter.  Occasionally somebody does think more deeply and realize that people are individuals, but more often than not, people just reduce each other to categories.  The bottom line is, when everyone wants peace, we will damned sure find a way to achieve it, but not until then.

Posted by ThisPerson on Nov 15, 2004 at 11:02 AM

Hi George,

Now, that’s what I like!!

While my american text books never dwelled much on the fact, the early european settlers were certainly not europe’s “best people.”  Convicts is kind of stong word, and would be better applied to Australia, where they, just like us, wiped out an aboriginal population.  Many of the earliest americans had been jailed in england, but that was just for having the wrong religious beliefs in the wrong place.  I’m sure many of you muslims understand this situation.  What else?  Oh, yeah, as far as a breed is concerned, we are unfortunately very ethnically divided and are becoming more so.  Soon americans of european dissent will become a minority.  I don’t care what color we eventually end up, but i’d like us to be a bit more unified, as our diversity creates misunderstandings and causes us to vote in strange ways.  We do have our share of sinister types, but they are mostly kept in check by our system.  Please tell Dr. Frankenstein that he need not copy us, as we have our unemployed just like everywhere else.  He could just hire them!

Posted by shawn harper on Nov 15, 2004 at 11:02 AM

There’s no point in posting here anymore if anyone can steal your identity and post their venom in YOUR NAME.

To the creep that is spewing nonsense and disparaging me with it in the process.

You are a sad, pathetic little person. You are the type of closed minded simpleton that liberalism actually protects.

YOU are an example of the type of extremism that needs to be rooted out.

Posted by The ORIGINAL Liberal AND Proud on Nov 15, 2004 at 11:18 AM

Your previous name was Liberal “but” proud.  Mine was Liberal “AND” Proud.  However, I will change my posts from now on to make the difference clearer and just call myself “Liberal”.

What venom was I posting in your name…can you be a bit more specific?  And are you referring to MY views as extremist?

Posted by Liberal on Nov 15, 2004 at 11:34 AM

Yes, I admit I made a typo the other day..and put but where I should have put and.

I apologize for that.

Posted by Liberal AND Proud on Nov 15, 2004 at 11:43 AM

Liberal AND Proud

No problem.  I didn’t mean to usurp your name.  I’d still like to know what I said that bugs you so much…I put down an overt neo-Nazi type, but didn’t think I was spewing venom.  (although the medication comment was admittedly in poor taste as it unfairly might hurt folks suffering from real illnesses).  What did I say that was extremist or venomous?

Posted by Liberal on Nov 15, 2004 at 12:34 PM

Dear Jews
Here is a state called Israel ,established around a religion.
Imports people from South America to Brooklyn, from India to Ethiopia. With the material support of zionists in America , immigrant Israel drives out indigeous people from their land. An Ukranian immigrant barely speaking Arabic or Hebrew, serving in IDF stops elderly Palestinians in check points and asks his ID book? A jewish bastard immigrating god knows from where, into Palestine with a gun in his hand supplied by zionist state, prevents an elderly Palestinian man from going into his field. And here brainwashed jewish gangsters fabricating countless reasons justifying the ongoing crimes committed against Palestinians.
Of course holocaust was never happened and its fabrication and exageration of a financially powerful Jewish lobby losing their interests in Europe.  If jews were really subjected to holocaust , they themselves would never allow similar treatment to the others.
Of course holocaust was embellished and detailed with lies to justify a “homeland” for the jews.
American jews were in the forefront of the colonization of Indian lands nad decimation of native people in US. They are well experienced in dispossesing others. Their can only sustain their well being by sucking bloods of other nations. You will never ever see jews living in the same country isolated from the rest of the world. They need others to suck their blood to sustain their life.

Posted by Cem Guven Asti on Nov 15, 2004 at 12:47 PM

Dear V.I.,
I welcome you to draw your own conclusions of Arafat’s morality.  My point was not to defend his methods, although I stand by my very partial list of Israeli (and pre-statehood Zionist) acts of terrorism.

But your post helps prove the point about the monumental accomplishments of Arafat and the movement that he led.  You describe the Palestinian nation in its entirety as a “group of Arab settlers in Judea and Samaria who were proclaimed by Arab landlords and Arab Moslem fanatics a “Palestinian people”.”  Go ahead and believe that there is no such thing as the Palestinian people.  But you must also acknowledge that if you were to utter anything like this statement, not just at the UN (which to you is just a bunch of anti-semites), but in any official forum in the US, on the floor of the US Congress, and even in a session of the Israeli Knesset, you would be either laughed or thrown out of the room.  You might not like that, but it is a fact, and one for which Arafat deserves credit.

Posted by Daniel on Nov 15, 2004 at 12:48 PM

OK, maybe I was over the top. LOL. Not the first time.

I probably agree with you more often than not.

I overreacted to the venom being directed YOUR way, and assumed (yes…I know) that you were the guilty party.

Again. I apologize.

Posted by Liberal AND Proud on Nov 15, 2004 at 12:51 PM

this is truly a sad trail of vituperative racist commentary to what is an excellent article

thank you, Neve & thank you ITT

Posted by jon on Nov 15, 2004 at 12:53 PM

LAP, Thank you!

Cem, did you know Jews also cause hurricanes and earthquakes?  But you’d better be careful since they’re probably monitoring your phones and computer.  Wacko.

Daniel, I think most of us don’t question the Palestinians’ identity or plight but rather their ends-justify-the-means approach.  Their identity has been broadly recognized for quite a long time now…when will it be time for them to abandon terrorism and adopt negotiation and non-violent resistance as their primary means of communicating?  It’s pretty clear to most folks that if terror advanced their cause at one point, it’s certainly not doing so now. 

Also, I’m curious, do you think the UN is balanced and fair?  They have 1 Jewish state and dozens of Arab and more Muslim states who act as a block and retaliate against states that oppose them…the UN has been quick to condemn Israel and slow to speak out against the transgressions of Arab states against Jews, Kurds, and others.  Do you think they can fairly arbitrate between Israel and the Arab states?

Posted by Liberal on Nov 15, 2004 at 1:20 PM

Darn it Jon, you are undermining my efforts.  This is a liberal rag that attracts racists and islamists.  It gives them hope.

CEM GUVEN ASTI,

You are a moron.  You start off by making a valid, though biased’ arguement that jewish newcommers have no fair right to more power than palistinians.  Let me tell you, if a rich guy from japan moves to the US and hires me, he suddenly has power over me, even though my family has been here since the 1600’s!  But that’s okay, that’s america. 

What kind of a name is asti?  Your crude antisemitism makes me think you are an arab.  You’re too much of a moron to be a persian or german nazi.  I suggest you take a nice, long trip to germany.  Since you have some english, you will do okay there.  You can learn two things: 1. Almost every german will disagree with you.  Even though there is some latent antisemitism, they are very aware of and contantly confronted with the proof of what their grandfathers did to the jews (and poles, and slavs)

You will also learn some REAL jew-hatred.  The nazis didn’t invent anti-semitism, but they wrote the book on it.  Read it if you want to be a sucessful antisemite.  In countries where there are no jews, people think that lawyers, doctors, and bankers are blood-suckers.  SInce jews are often disciplined enough to practice these professions, they are often seen to be bloodsuckers because they are jewish, not because they are a greedy lawyer or doctor. Get it straight or get better.

Posted by shawn harper on Nov 15, 2004 at 1:29 PM

To Liber with blinders on
Palestine does not belong to the European-Russian Jews PERIOD!
Technical knowledge hurts, here is one for your head:
FOR A CLEAN HOUSE OR FOR A COUNTRY:
Eradication of Cockroachs and other pestilence includes killing the young and females stupid!
The Russians and Pollocks, found it a blessing when they left. I SAY, CHARGE THEM WAR CRIMES fOR UNLEASHING THE PESTS.
IT IS A REALLY INFESTED WORLD.GET ME THE RAID!
IsraOil—Ma-Ma,Papa hide your boys the draft is coming and the Jew is here for the rent.
Jesus not Jewus or Jewme—sing that with the chorus—Jingle Bells

Posted by george on Nov 15, 2004 at 1:53 PM

Stoog says—when a jap opens a business in america,you as a employee has to kow-tow to his demands. Palestinians business is their homeland and kissing a jewish asses is notin their job description.How stupid you americans is in calling this paper a rag.What do you call NYT’s,CNN FOX.and the rest of the jewish propaganda networks—how about—- HAZARDOUS WASTE
I suggest you read some info on Jewishwatch.com, cause it seems you are out of touch. Jews have gone to far!Motto in Iraq—Kill Jews and Kill Americans.Shame we allowed them to take over and tell us what to kiss.Arabs are nice people—stupid!-I’m not Arab-just a concerned, informed citizen.

Posted by george on Nov 15, 2004 at 2:19 PM

Whoever hurts a person from the People of the Book, it will be as though he hurt me personally.

-Muhammad

Obviously, Hitler was not afraid of Muhammad.

The NYT is also a liberal rag.

Posted by shawn harper on Nov 15, 2004 at 2:34 PM

george,

You are obviously an ugly person.  Noone physically attractive can write like that.

Posted by shawn harper on Nov 15, 2004 at 3:25 PM

George, there’s not much point in trying to hold a rational discussion with a crazy person (and you clearly most have been voted “Most Likely to be Institutionalized” in school…if you went), but I’m curious: why is a right-wing fascist paranoid nut job like you reading a progressive newsletter?  Don’t neo-Nazis and white-supremacists have newsletters of your own?  Do you seriously think anyone with half a brain will be influenced by your crazy drivel?

Posted by Liberal on Nov 15, 2004 at 3:51 PM

The overarching myth being preserved by Gordon’s piece is that the Zionist ccupation of Palestine has been 37 years when the occupation began in 1948 when the state was built on stolen land.

The only ‘peace’ the Zionists will accept (with US help) is the total acquiesense of the Palestinian people to a life of Apartheid.

Rhoda Shapiro
Encinitas, CAMon, 15 Nov 2004 11:08:29 -0800 (PST)
From:“Rhoda Shapiro” <rosa10@sbcglobal.net>  Add to Address Book
Subject:RE: Mark Williams Racist Screed 11/15/04
To:ken@sacunion.com

Sacramento Union
November 15, 2004
Editor
RE: Mark Williams

So this is the way George Bush is getting more
involved in the Middle East? By setting off a spew of
racist media venom never before heard in this
country.But he was only taking his orders from Ariel
Sharon (otherwise known as the Butcher of Sabra and
Shatilla and other high crimes) who announced last
week that a program to demonize the dying Arafat was
moving into full swing.

In the service first of the British when the founders
of Zionism put themselves forth as a ‘civilizing’
European force in Palestine, until they have become
the only nuclear power in the Middle East ( no small
thanks to stolen US nuclear secrets and trillions of
US tax dollars) the people of the US have been flooded
with anti-Arab racism for many decades.

To the rest of the world the fact remains that the
land of Palestine was stolen by the Zionists.  The
nightmare of a Jewish Only state is a racist concept
that can only remain in existence by attempting the
ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian people. This will
never happen.

William’s racist screed is the sound of US/Zionist
imperial policy gone mad.

Rhoda Shapiro
278 Coneflower St.
Encinitas, CA 92024
760-635-0577

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Posted by Rhoda Shapiro on Nov 15, 2004 at 4:08 PM

the Israeli propaganda machine,most of the US media,turned arafat into a monster,accusing him of everything wrong even the black hole in space.the plan was to let the real terrorist and obstacle to peace, Sharon, destroy oslo and any chance of peace in the area.
it does not matter how many women and children sharon kills,over 700 this year, or how many houses he destroys in gaza,or how many spies he has in washington, the media will cover up for him and blame arafat, as if he is the one occuping and killing.
If Arafat was such a bad guy why did over 60 countries attended his funeral.except for the US,the whole world knows the truth about the middle east

Posted by adam on Nov 15, 2004 at 4:24 PM

To all the crazies…consider this: Jews are just people like everyone else.  They are neither angels nor devils.  The same is true of Palestinians and of Arabs in general.  Jews do not control the media/banks/government/world/whatever crazy paranoid delusion you can come up with.  Arabs are not all crazed murderers.  They’re both just people.  Jews are a small minority who have been fighting hard for survival for most of their history. 

There is plenty of room for a negotiated settlement between the Israelis and the Palestinians without resorting to villification.  I hope one day the grown-ups will get a chance to have a healthy discussion of the issues…clearly, it’s not going to happen here.

The anti-Semites have taken over this thread so I’m off to find a better forum where there can be open, sane discussion among folks of differing views.  To those who expressed thoughtful views (on either side), thanks for the fun discussion.

Posted by Liberal on Nov 15, 2004 at 5:18 PM

Imus called Arafat a ‘rat’ and ‘stinky’; mourners were ‘animals’
A rights group has criticised some US media organisations for allowing racist and hate-filled speech during its coverage of Palestinian leader Yasir Arafat’s death.
The American-Arab Anti-Discrimination Committee (ADC) said it was deeply concerned with “the alarming hostility expressed by media commentators towards the Palestinian people in the wake of the death of Palestinian leader Yasir Arafat”, a statement said.
The ADC said US networks MSNBC and CNN both broadcast hostile commentary regarding Palestinians.
Don Imus, of the Imus in the Morning programme aired on weekends on MSNBC, referred to Arafat as a “rat” and called him “stinky” with “beady-eyes”. Imus also said that “all Palestinians look like him”.
The racist comments continued with one of his guests who described the Palestinians attending the funeral as “animals” and joked about their hygiene.
“They’re dropping soap from the helicopters,” the guest laughed.

Good riddance Arafat

Also on MSNBC, Joe Scarborough, presenter of Scarborough Country, began his programme by declaring: “Some are calling Yasir Arafat’s passing a tragedy. He’s actually the father of modern terrorism. Good riddance.

“We should be seeking and working towards a just and lasting peace for the Israelis and the Palestinians instead of engaging in hateful rhetoric which dehumanises a people and affects perception of television viewers”
ADC statement
“This was, after all, the man who invented modern terrorism in the Middle East and by extension was the godfather of September 11.”
Among the guests on the show was the Palestinian Authority representative to the United States, Hasan Abd al-Rahman, who while attempting to express his view, was interrupted by shouts of “where’s the money?” by Scarborough in reference to international aid.
The ADC also said that CNN was guilty of one-sided, hostile comments.
Violations
“Plans call currently for Yasir Arafat to be buried in his compound in Ram Allah, which will eventually be turned into some kind of shrine. Maybe they’ll put a sign out front for the Palestinian people, that reads: ‘Here lays the body of the thief who robbed you blind’,” said Jack Cafferty on CNN’s morning programme, American Morning.
“Comments such as the ones listed can only be regarded as an overt incitement to ethnic hatred of the Palestinians,” the ADC said in a statement.
 

Adam—-How we forgotten,recall the Israel government voted last Sept. to do away with Arafat.Locked up for 3 years and known that many attempts had been made to poison the poor sole.sent to France local hosiptal and then transfered to a military one. Not a word from Israel or america or the Brits,telling us how bad traitors the French are.Something smells—-Mossad killers are everywhere.USA media,not a bad word of the French.The plan was known—Arafat execution was on track.Israel & news media Scums!

Posted by george on Nov 15, 2004 at 5:22 PM

To Daniel:

Obviously, my and millions of decent people opinion about Arafat’s morality is on collision with yours.  The murderer and a thief is not so bad if he murders Jews, according to your morality.  Of course, as you stated, you don’t defend his methods, but the goal (to destroy the Jewish state of Israel) is O.K. for you? 

What kind of “very partial list of Israeli (and pre-statehood Zionist) acts of terrorism” are you talking about?  Show me the facts; otherwise you look like a fool. 

If you had read my post attentively, you would have understood that “the monumental accomplishments of Arafat and the movement that he led” are very comparable with the monumental accomplishments of Adolf Hitler and the movement that he led.  (Adolf also called his Nazi party “a movement”).  But, probably, it is hard for you to understand…

About “Palestinian people”: it is not a matter of “believe” that there is no such thing as the “Palestinian people”.  It is what Arabs themselves stated not so long ago: “Palestinians” is a Zionist invention.  There is no such land as Palestine; it is a wide known fact that Palestine is nothing more than Southern Syria. 
That what they said…  You know why? Because, at that time, Jews who returned to Palestine were called Palestinians in media. 

What UN is we have seen: anti-Semites, crooks and hypocrites.  A decent person should not be afraid to be laughed at or even “thrown out of the room”.  If a room full of knaves, a decency has no place there.
And remember, a good laugh is always the last one.

Posted by V.I. on Nov 15, 2004 at 6:31 PM

V.I. says—Arafat murderer,theif—says who? YOU!
Seems you like to pass on lies.What do you call Sharron—a saint?
You are such a liar and cheat.Palestine has been around for a long time.Seems you are a good twister in facts.Arafat was a freedom fighter not a crook! Give us some facts-other than Israel b.s.
Last week the Bush regime passed a law in congress—it is now a punishable crime for teachers to hint that Israel and Jews are a problem. Seems Jews have more rights then blacks.
What makes these suckers so special?greed!

Posted by george on Nov 15, 2004 at 8:06 PM

My first comment is that too many uneducated readers respond without the slightest knowledge of history and the dynamics of the Arab Israeli conflict.

Israel has NEVER offered Araft 97% of Gaza and the West Bank. This is a lie that became a very popular myth. Currently Israel directly occupies and controls 60% of Gaza and the West Bank. This total area under control encompasses settlements, bypass roads, confiscated lands for public use..etc. This equation leaves 40% of the occupied lands under Palestinian control. What Israel did offer was 97% of the 40% land under Palestinian self-rule. In essence, the Palestinians were offered about 11% of the original historic Palestine, hardly a generous offer.

As for Arafat, he was a world leader of the caliber of Gandhi and Nelson Mandela.  He did not deliver his people a free Palestine, but he navigated the most difficult political climates and made the world aware of the plight of Palestinians.

Posted by Nader on Nov 15, 2004 at 8:30 PM

‘My first comment is that too many uneducated readers respond without the slightest knowledge of history and the dynamics of the Arab Israeli conflict.’
Pal—most know the truth-Israel and supporters are crooks.Most like to side with the guy who has the most money and pull.
Tell them about or to research the U.S.S. Liberty’s Israelie bombing and they don’t care. Sad is it not?—like if someone beat the crap out of your love-one and the only thing you do is hug the bastard!
stupid Americans

Posted by george on Nov 15, 2004 at 8:55 PM

Arafat’s Physician Seeks Exhumation

Politics: 13 November 2004, Saturday.

Yasser Arafat’s Jordanian physician demanded an autopsy of the body due to the unclear reasons for the Palestinian leader’s death.

“One of the causes of platelet deficiency is poison,” said Ashraf al-Kurdi’s, who examined Arafat before he was taken to Paris.

Although “not definitive, I believe the highest reason for Arafat’s mysterious death is poisoning,” al-Kurdi said.

“Therefore, there should be an autopsy performed,” added the Jordanian neurologist.

Gen. Christian Estripeau, spokesperson at the French hospital where Arafat was treated, would not comment.
*********************************************
Say! if Arafat ordered poisoning of Sharron what would have happened. Jewish Feel good, I bet in poisoning a innocent man.

Posted by george on Nov 15, 2004 at 9:04 PM

Ayyy, the perennial, perpetual, neverending story of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The only change in the tale since I was a child is the new approach to mayhem of inspiring youths to strap themselves with explosives before they get on the bus. But the broad outlines remain, testimony to mass delusion, infectious hatred, and ethics based on paybacks for offenses committed decades or centuries past. And the central delusion is the Judeo-Christian-Islamic assertion that “they” (whichever representative is speaking at the time) are to be regarded as the single favorite human tribe among the thousands who have walked this Earth, that the entire cosmic process of creation and evolution (sic) somehow culminated and was carried out exactly so that that little faction could come into existence and satisfy The Creator’s grand scheme to show Its Cosmic Ass to the entire human race, save the “favorites” who desperately clamor to retain something of the myths they’ve used to justify their rabid conquests for centuries past and up to the present day. If the Bible and the Quran can be seen as in any way historically accurate, and adding the events over the last 2000+ years that we can actually substantiate regarding the bloody expansions of the “semitic” faiths, then what all of those religions share are leaders who convince their flocks that xenophobic wars of conquest are justified by (victory and) The Will of God, and followers who will commit any atrocity no matter how repugnant it is in the context of the morals each espouses. All claim Divine Sanction, all positively drip with the blood of innocents, now and in the past, and of course into the future as well. Talk about no sense of history, when in hell can we get past all this mythological-militaristic masturbation? The whole basis of these conflicts is delusional, it’s time we called it what it is. God and the entirely of the universe having a favorite little group of people, the idea! Like the flea thinking it owns the dog! Nothing’s gonna change if that central foolishness isn’t transcended. The real questions are, who benefits from the violence? Who profits from the sales of arms? Who gains political influence? Whose programs can be better carried out under the current terrible conditions? Who’s getting rich? I wonder if it’s possible I’ll live long enough to see any substantial progress made, as all of the sides continue to kill, occupy, kill, brainwash, victimize, appropriate revenues, and oh yes, kill? I somehow doubt it. That any of them actually claim out loud to have a stance based on morality is enough to make one puke. Why anyone still gives them any allegience is a cause for depression. So f’n tedious and stupid…

Posted by Kuya on Nov 15, 2004 at 11:59 PM

Not to toot my own horn, but when this situation first began and progressed to the “we don’t know what’s wrong with him” point. My gut feeling was that he had been poisoned.

BUT, it should be remembered that Arafat was living essentially in complete isolation. Which reduces the amount of people with access to him.

So it smacks of an “inside job”.

Since it’s all speculation anyway, I’ll offer this.

I don’t believe the Israelis would have had him poisoned. They’ve had more than ample opportunity to “get him” if they really wanted to. Honestly, they really don’t worry about world opinion. So they could have simply leveled his building at any time. In addition, Arafat is more useful to them alive than dead. Just as Bin Laden is more useful to the US alive than dead.

If they kill him AND it’s obvious that they have, all that’s accomplished is the creation of a martyr to rally around. Also, Israel itself was and is concerned about potential increased chaos around them that is caused by his death.

No. My view, and it’s only MY VIEW, is that some faction within the varied Palestinian leaders and groups wanted him dead. I’ve lived by one basic principle whenever I’ve looked at politics. Follow the trail of money and/or personal gain.

The simple question is…Who had the most to gain by his death?

Posted by Liberal AND Proud on Nov 16, 2004 at 4:33 AM

Like Jesse Jackson who specializes in playing the race card, those who cannot defend the Israeli actions revert to the Anti-Semitic card. This is getting old. It substitutes ad hominum attacks for intelligent discourse. 

Stick to the argument and disabuse yourself of these so called anti-semitic fantasies and paronoid delusions of persecution.

Posted by john on Nov 16, 2004 at 6:14 AM

Sick world.—The most hated people on this world are Jews who support Israel.Nothing, no matter what these sinister groups do—they keep on lying for the zionist cause.i wish there was a free dialog,without name calling.The issue here is that Arafat is a noble person ,who has been ill treated. The Jews have treated the Palestinians worse then caged animals.Pull a well mannered dogs tail long enough—he will bite.
For god sakes—why is it that Israel thugs can kill and lie and the Chritian kooks cover for them.When they kill our boys the poli-ticks and news media cover it up. I wish the bone heads critizing me read about Isreals killing of our troops by bombing USS liberty.These Kooks wanted to get america envolved in unleashing the Atomic bomb on Egypt.No it was not Egyptian war planes that bombed the ship and killed over 200 navy US men. The prik jackels Israelies did it. But they got caught and our Jewish slobs—covered it up.
For those fools out in America’s La-La land—what does it take for Israel and it’s drones in America to convence you that they are a breed of horror.What if it was exposed and proven that the Israelies orchestrated WTC downing—would that change your mind about them? If it doesn’t—-then Hitler was right!No I’m not anti-semitic—cause the jews in power there and here are not Semites.
SEMITE—Langauges of family including hebrew and arabic-any race descended from son of Naoh. Seems alot of kook posters need history lessons.Poor Palestinians—my heart goes to the true Semites.
If you are going to bash me ,a least read some about the USS Liberty,before you shoot the messenger!
t

Posted by george on Nov 16, 2004 at 7:02 AM

That Arafat is finally dead. He was a horrible man and an even worse “leader”. He led his people into almost 35 years of useless and foolish strife, death and misery. Too bad he was not a MLK or Ghandi, instead of a wanna be tin horn dictator who only cared for his own self intereste! May he get what he deserves. . .

Posted by iAmSoGlad on Nov 16, 2004 at 7:09 AM

To Nader:

Don’t be so happy, there are enough educated readers with the knowledge of the history.  That’s why your tricks with numbers aren’t going to fly. 

First of all, describe what is the “historic Palestine” and how it is differ from Mandatory Palestine. 

Secondly, clarify what do you mean when you say “he (Arafat) did not deliver his people a free Palestine”; describe exactly “free Palestine” in the context of your expression.

Thirdly, he did not make “the world aware of the plight of Palestinians”.  The world knew about 1948 war before Arafat, but at that time those people were called “ARAB refugees”, not “Palestinians”. 

As to your description of Arafat as a “world leader”, I don’t want even to discuss that nonsense.

Posted by V.I. on Nov 16, 2004 at 8:27 AM

To Nader:

Don’t be so happy, there are enough educated readers with the knowledge of the history.  That’s why your tricks with numbers aren’t going to fly. 

First of all, describe what is the “historic Palestine” and how it is differ from Mandatory Palestine.

Secondly, clarify what do you mean when you say “he (Arafat) did not deliver his people a free Palestine”; describe exactly “free Palestine” in the context of your expression.

Thirdly, he did not make “the world aware of the plight of Palestinians”.  The world knew about 1948 war before Arafat, but at that time those people were called “ARAB refugees”, not “Palestinians”. 

As to your description of Arafat as a “world leader”, I don’t want even to discuss that nonsense.

Posted by V.I. on Nov 16, 2004 at 8:33 AM

Here is another view of the situation in Israel, offered by a mischievous person with absolutely no ethnic, emotional or spiritual ties to either of the parties or the faiths.

There are two solutions to the problem:

1) The Israelis could remove all barriers and fences and allow the Palestinians to return to their home villages. But the Jews could also remain in all their present settlements. Both peoples would have to _live together_, _side by side_. After a few generations, Jewish boys and girls wd start realising that their Palestinian opposites were humans, and also attractive. Interbreeding would occur, and after a few more generations a truly local people would evolve.

2) That nuclear reactor (or the nuclear weapons) the Israelis have could be detonated, killing or sterilising all the inhabitants of the region (of both nations - radiation does not discriminate between religions), and rendering the land uninhabitable, so solving the problem once and for all (or at least for a few hundred years). The poisoned terrain could remain as a monument to the intransigence and stupidity of the leaders and manipulators of both communities.

In other words, as a better wit once said, ‘We must all hang together, or we shall most assuredly all hang separately.’

Posted by Brito on Nov 16, 2004 at 1:37 PM

IF YOU MISSED IT!
One generation ago the peoples of the world asked themselves: Where were the “good” Germans? - Today the peoples of the world are likewise asking themselves: Where are the “good” Americans?
SEEMS THERE ARE NOT MANY BY THE POSTS READ.
The following Quote is from a real Sh!t head Jew,that writes for Sharrons zionist cause.I recall reading,when young,in Nazi germany ,the Jews had to wear the star of David on their sleeves. The mess these goons have caused,is time we do the same. Sorry folks but they have ruin America. NOTICE-I DO NOT HATE ALL JEWS—JUST THE ONES IN Sharron’s ISRAEL AND IN BUSH,S WASHINGTON
*********************************************
Quote
“In a better world, the PLO chief would have met his end on a gallows, hanged for mass murder much as the Nazi chiefs were hanged at Nuremberg. ... In a better world, George Bush would not have said, on hearing the first reports that Arafat had died, ‘God bless his soul.’

“God bless his soul? What a grotesque idea! ... God, I am quite sure, will damn him for eternity.”

So writes Jeff Jacoby of the Boston Globe. And we are surely fortunate to have columnists who know the mind of God

Posted by george on Nov 17, 2004 at 5:09 AM

The REAL problem is that there are now TWO EFFING israels, america, and israel itself. GREAT! This country has SOLD OUT to zionist interests, and that is a fact. Send em all to the damn moon. There they can not bother anyone.
Zionist Jews are the most isolationist, separatist, holier than thou scum that there ever was.
Don’t let ‘em fool ya! Read, educate yourself, get strong, and prepare. That is the way to fight back. Don’t eff up ANOTHER election. DO NOT give them your money, either. Boycott.
We need a NEW America!

Posted by JB on Nov 17, 2004 at 9:05 AM

Mary—are you in a stste of stuper.If you want a serious dialog—answer this—-The land of Palestine belongs to WHO? If some thieves(VERMON) settled into your home and their deal was—you sleep in the basent and they have 90% of your home.Also they tell you when you can use the bathroom.
GOD LADY,you must be out to lunch.Do you know any Jew that looks as if he originated from middle-east—NO!—they are all squatters—most Jew Russians..What do you think of the way we stole and killed the American Indians. YA!—Some raw deal they got—-one axe,  a mirror, some beads-for ownership of Manhatten and we whites then came back to the chief and said to him—We got cheated—-the cheif give into the demand—his 3 daughters—-they never made it to England—-they got screwed blue by the crew—-We whites are creeps. Mary,please read some about Palestine—they got the raw deal.

Posted by george on Nov 17, 2004 at 2:55 PM

Add Germany, Japan, India, and Indonesia as permanent UN Security Council members. Delete the veto of General Assembly resolutions as a privilege held by the permanent SecCon members. Organize heavily publicized class-action suits against arms merchants on the grounds that they are culpable for the death and dismemberment that results from using their wares in the intended manner (similar to the suits being brought against tobacco companies). Beef up the peacekeeping role of UN forces with better equipment and training, including the alteration of command structures so as to increase their effectiveness in the field. Promote the ideal that no country, culture, or religion gets any preferential treatment based on previous historical events. Push technologies that reduce or negate reliance on petroleum-based energy sources. Publicize the details of arms trafficking around the globe, including the names of the source-nations and their clients, as well as the types of arms being sold. Promote secular, humanist, scientific, and compassionate attitudes by hiring use of the commercial media organs (rather than emphasizing UN publications that hardly anyone reads) to deliver these messages. In these publications and PSAs, emphasize production value, high interest, snappy images and music, and star power (local as well as international stars), so as to grab the attention of ordinary folk around the world. These are some things the UN and the international community (to use an overworked term) might do to democratize the ways that nations interrelate, negate the excessive control over international affairs held by the winning allies of World War II, and, perhaps, enhance the likelihood of the creation of a nation called Palestine alongside a secure Israel. While we’re at it, I still think that these 2000+ year-old claims of territory based on ancient injustices should be considered invalid. Using that logic, I should be the “owner” of about 1000 hectares in the Prussian region of Germany, going back to my ancestors having been unjustly deprived of land they had once held. Yes, of course it’s an absurd idea, that’s exactly my point. And I’ll still make the case that when Jews, Christians, or Muslims claim to have an exclusively privileged position vis a vis a Cosmic Creator and the human race (as they all assert), they should be regarded as delusional. The intensity of their beliefs doesn’t change the basic flaw in their thinking, in fact it’s evidence in favor of the idea that they’re out of touch with reality. Delusions most often are believed-in passionately, despite lack of empirical evidence… and the evidence sure doesn’t support the assertion that those religions and their adherents are “holier than” anyone!.

Posted by Kuya on Nov 17, 2004 at 7:03 PM

Finishing What Hitler Started

by Mark Williams

Published: November 12, 2004 14:18 | Last Updated: November 15, 2004, 5:44 am

The media in this county have gone nuts. I actually heard one TV anchorette—with nice teeth but no brains or sense of history past her first Barbie Doll—refer to Yasser Arafat as “the George Washington of Palestine.”

Get this straight: Yasser Arafat was a blood-soaked, sub-human, vile, reprehensible, murderous animal. Its (his) savagery was unmatched in the latter half of the 20th Century and the fires of Hell are burning that much more brightly for his having been spawned.

This sociopathic reptile’s terrorist history dates to his founding of Fatah – designed to liberate Israel from the Jews, by way of extermination, in the 1950s. By 1969 he was big dog on the Middle Eastern block, head of a conglomeration of Islamic terrorist organizations unified under a single committee on which each is represented.

The Executive Committee of the PLO becomes the Arab equivalent of the Mob commission founded by Joseph “Joe Bananas” Bonnano, Lucky Luciano, Tommy Lucchese, Frank Costello, and Vito Genovese. Joe was a humanitarian compared to Arafat, the five families were only killing each other at the time, united to stop that and direct their efforts toward the business at hand. In Arafat’s case, the goal of unification was to improve and coordinate a more effective offensive against innocents.

And what a record Arafat accumulated!

February 21, 1970. Swissair flight 330 blown out of the sky inbound to Tel Aviv. All passengers and crew lost.

May 8, 1970. Nine school kids and three of their teachers blown to bits when Arafat orders their school bus obliterated by bazooka fire

September 5, 1972. Also under Arafat’s direct command, terrorists murder 11 Israeli athletes at the Munich Olympics (FYI; Mahmood Abbas, who tops a short list of successors to Arafat today was the creep who worked out the logistics for that slaughter)

March 1, 1973. The US Ambassador to the Sudan is among those killed when Arafat’s animals take over the Saudi embassy in Khartoum.

May 15 1974. This is one of Arafat’s best pieces of work. Under orders from the soon-to-be Nobel Peace Prize winner, a group of PLO tosses grenades into a group of schoolchildren being held hostage and try to mow down the survivors with machine guns. Twenty-one children and two adults killed in the school. A child, home from school sick, is murdered – along with both parents – when Arafat’s guys make a quick stop by the house to see if they missed anybody.

October 7, 1985. An oldie but goodie. American Leon Klinghoffer is shot in his wheelchair, which is then rolled off of the Achille Lauro’s deck and to a watery grave in the Mediterranean.

January 17, 2002. Sixx killed, 35 wounded when Arafat’s “freedom fighters” machinegun a bat mitzvah. Two dead, 40 injured five days later when commuters are machine-gunned by Arafat’s animals at a bus stop. A week later they burst into a private home to murder an 11-year-old and her mother

May 27, 2002. The “George Washington of Palestine” orders an infant and her grandmother blown to pieces at an ice cream parlor. The next day they mow down a group of kids playing basketball. Three dead; ages 17, 17 and 14. The next month’s high point for Yasser comes with three more dead kids: 16, 12 and 5 in a home invasion, along with their mother and a neighbor who tried to help the other victims.

May 2004. Arafat dispatches four more kids: 11, 9, 7, 2, and mom when he RPGs their car.

Those are just a few highlights – a partial list, abbreviated because to publish a complete list of the accomplishments of the founding father of terrorism would take up this entire publication. There are literally hundreds of attacks on innocents, hundreds more on mostly off-duty IDF and ordinary street cops walking their beats. The death toll in the thousands. But you won’t hear this from the American media whose motto is: “Warm up the box cars, we found a nest of ‘em!”

Folks, this emperor is as naked as they come:

• Item: There is not, never has been, never will be a nation called “Palestine.” It is a myth. Atlantis has more validity. “Palestine” exists only as a vehicle for the extermination of an entire people and a major goal of Islamic Jihad in its war against civilization.

• Item: If there is a crueler pile of camel manure than Palestine, then it has got to be the total fiction of a Palestinian “people” as a group distinct from Jews, Arabs or the other peoples indigenous to the area. They have “homelands.” What they do not have is a Jew-less Israel. This nonsense about a homeland is just that – nonsense. But dangerous nonsense. These freaks of some twisted politically correct nightmare are furiously scratching matches over a gas jet trying to relight Auschwitz.

Is there anything holy to our contemptible media? They are celebrating a monster that did more to advance toward the Final Solution than anybody since Schickelgrueber – Arafat was the bin Laden of his day and now he is dead. Good, I am glad. I hope it was painful. The appropriate headstone over the stiff would be a working urinal.

Posted by Kamal on Dec 10, 2004 at 9:04 PM

Right on Kamal!!!!

Posted by Liberal on Dec 10, 2004 at 9:43 PM

TO: Camal
Jews have a bad Gene—-greed!Sure they are smart and conniving,so are rats.Sooner not later they will get caught. I don’t know if Kamal is Jewish,but he sure sounds as if he is blowing steam as many Jews do,when they can’t have it ALL.Lucky for the Jews that Jewish America helped them in Nazi Germany. About time, the Jews are exposed with the Iraq war and the Palestinian killings.Wait until America goes hungry—the Jews will feel the rath of the comman folk.
Non- Arab jews have robbed and killed and caused such world termoil for ages, and a good sign is that the recent jewish sinister deeds have been exposed.
Reminds me of trapping greedy chimps .African hunters knew that chimps were greedy animals. They devised a trap,a hollow coconut,with a big enough hole for the monkey’s hand to fit in. The coconut was filled with rice and placed under the coconut tree. Once the chimp stuck his hand in and took a fist full of rice,he could not get his hand out-cause he was too greedy to get at the rice.The chimp could not climb up the tree to get away. The hunter then clubbed the sucker dead.
Seems Kamal does not realize that the Jews are about to be clubbed and thier stolen riches be given back to the poor.
I suggest all read the massive killings by the Jews—King David hotel 1947 and the Killings of USS Liberty 1967-or about.
Fact 9/11 was ordered by Israel—-any doubts-let me know—soon to be taught in History lesson 101
MaMa PaPa hurry—the Jews are here to take your sons away!—hide them quick!
I just can’t believe americans are such saps for lapping up the Bull Sh!t from Kamal and his Heb thugs!

Posted by IsraOil on Dec 10, 2004 at 9:59 PM

Isrealoil, you are an idiot.

First I’d like to say, getting back to this article, recent events have proven that IN THESE TIMES is a dulusional liberal rag that takes grains of truth and draws totally false conclusions, like the washington times at its WORST.  Since arafat’s death, a lot of ground has been gained towards peace in and around palistine. With the sword rattling master of corruption gone, even the egyptians are felling more confomtable about improving relations with the isrealis, and Sharon has no excuse yet to close the dialog with the PA.  Hopefully they wont give him one.  Bush has started giving money to the PA, giving them the chance to better the lives and opportunities of the palistinian people.  If the PA mess this up again, the average palistinian will be crushed again, and as the world seems to be getting sick and tired of muslims in general, the isrealis could get a somewhat free hand and being brutal.

Now, isrealoil, why are you an idiot?  Let me explain.  I come from New York, perhaps the most Jewish friendly place outside of Isreal and Germany—- and I can tell you—- the Jews are every bit as bad as we christians are.  Not to assume you are a christian.  They may be as bad as the muslims too, but I’ve yet to see much evidence of that. Muslims are in the news every day, and it’s always because they’ve killed someone, often because they didn’t like what that person was saying. 

I know a little bit about the USS Liberty, and I’d say, “yes, there probably was a cover-up,”  I don’t know if they bombed a US spy-ship to cover up the brutal tit-for-tat they were using against the arabs or if it was a mistake—or if it started as a mistake and continued to cover-up the mistake.  All three stories are plausible in my mind, and I wasn’t even born then.

Contrary to your rather simple world view (if the world is anything like what you claim to believe, you had better start learning hebrew) the Jews had much less power in the US before and during WWII than they did even in Poland, Germany and Austria. Even up until the 1950s, Jews in america were mostly kept out of the best american schools for things like Physics and Anthropology, and forget about Law schools and medicine.  Jews in WWII america did not own any of the big american enterprises that mattered, and the heads of many of these industries were often quite antisemetic.  With the exception of the movie industry, Jews had virtually no power in american life, and spent a lot of their time trying to disguise their Jewish qualities in order to rise in status.  You would call this sneaky, and you might be right.  Even for a non-jew, “looking jewish” could ruin one’s career in the 1930’s and fourties.  The big rise in Jewish power in the US happened after WWII, the eventual result of enough refugees with european money moving to the US—which coincided with a big economic boom for the US, by the way.  One thing that history has proven, is, whether it caused by “neferious” jews or not (most likely NOT, isrealoil), is that ruin befalls a country after it kicks all it’s jews out.  Just look what happened to spain after the inquisition: spain is only now recovering from kicking all those “clever” people out.  It leaves the people who aren’t clever.  I am not asserting that there is a direct correlation here, but a definite indirect one.

Jews in the first half of the 20th century, even if they had been lucky enough to become richer than most christians in a certain area, were very often not able to buy houses in the best neighborhoods in NY, due to de facto gentlemen’s agreements that kept Jews out of the best clubs and neighborhoods.  This was not from the Jew paranoia that was rampant in Europe, but rather from the Jew’s rather deserved reputation as “social climbers” and the real threat of losing prestige if they were the first to let the jews “in.”  Most of the Jewish influence on america before WWII came from outside the US, mostly from Europe, where they actually did have a disproportionate control over markets.  But I can assure you that we cerainly were not (even if some ignorant people think we are now) the “Jewnited States of America” during WWII.  In fact jews today condemn america’s Jews for largely keeping quiet during the european atrocities.  And how do you explain the U.S.‘s turning away boats filled with Jewish refugees, largely because they were Jews.  My point: the americans were almost as bad as even the europeans!!!!  But not the muslims. ;) What a liberal rag.

Posted by shawn on Dec 11, 2004 at 9:26 AM

PS sorry for the typos!!

Isrealoil:  I also am annoyed about the comparison to rats.  Rats are not only smart, but are also very social and nice when treated right.  I know a lot about rat behavior:  they are fratricidal and paranoid like (some groups) when raised in certain conditions, sneaky (like some groups) when raised in other situations, and nice (like some groups) when raised in other situations.  Just like dogs.  Cats, on the other hand, (and I LIKE cats!!) leave far more to be desired as far as positive social traits are concerned.  So stop comparing people to rats! They’re no worse than we are—and they might be a little cleaner!

Posted by shawn on Dec 11, 2004 at 9:44 AM

In speaking of RATS ,read about a 2 legged rat-fink-Why are so many Americans blinded-used like toilet paper.Why would a RABBI instead of preaching and making sure non-jews enter the hocus-pocus jewish elite congregation of crooks and swindlers,he gets himself in the business of killing.
http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=news_members&Number=1092638
Wake-up America——you are taken by a bunch of greedy thugs. What would it take for you slobs to learn the fact that they are Pests?

Posted by IsraOil on Dec 11, 2004 at 3:30 PM

Richard Julis, please answer your third grade teacher!

Posted by Miss Dattner on Feb 27, 2005 at 12:08 PM

My family has a serious problem and the police,FbI,CIA and no-one in government wants to help.A fewyears back,we allowed some immagrants to visit us and we housed them and after some time,more of their kind settled in.When they trashed the good will and the place—they refused to go.Our family has been threatened and some killed.We refuse to leave.Our neighbours got together and forced the municipality not to help us and re-zoned our farm for protection and rights for these creeps to stay. No-other neighbour’s land is effected by the new law.After losing 90% of our farm,the squators are trying to push us out by force and killings. Every oriface to our home is broken down and the invaders are not stopable. We tried to get help and we pay our Taxes and the Government refuses to do it’s duty-to kick those fukk’en jews off or lands!
Can someone in LA-LA land give us some advice?

Posted by Archers on Feb 28, 2005 at 4:03 AM

Archers, your simple-minded analogy falls apart for several reasons:
1) Those immigrants were indiginous to that farm until your family killed many and ran the rest off.  Your family has done this to most of the other folks who lived in that neighborhood and enslaved or at best mal-treated the rest of them (read: Kurds, Armenians, Copts, Persians, etc.).
2) So it’s funny how you now think of it as “your” farm.  In fact, there never were any “Palestinians” until “Palestine” was artificially drawn by that municipality.  Until then, they were just Arabs who lived on (and still do) the vast majority of land in that region.
3) All of these kind Arab neighbors are vicious dictatorships that will do anything to anyone to maintain control.  Some of them (who your family liked and supported) even used chemical weapons to kill other families (Kurds) and take the land they lived on. 
4) So to get back to the point of this article, until now, your farm was being run by one of those vicious corrupt dictators who was not interested in sharing the farm with others (who I will remind you again had been there for thousands of years until your nice family recently chased them all out).  This guy enriched himself and his friends at your expense and passed up every opportunity to find a modus vivendi that would bring your family our of such miserable conditions.  Hopefully, with his demise, there will be a real chance at your family and the others finding a way to live together in peace and share the farm for everyone’s mutual benefit…hopefully they don’t all have racist simple-minded attitudes like yours.
5) As for our governement having a duty to kick Jews off your land, why in the world do you think Americans should help you?  Most Arabs hate American (and the rest of the west), you hate everything we stand for, you burn our flag, celebrated 9/11, and would kill us as soon as look at us.  This is not only because America supports Israel and democracy, but mostly because you are a bunch of racist xenophobic religious kooks who hate and kill everyone who is not just like yourself.  Fortunately, we live in a great country that just plain doesn’t like folks like that.
6) Maybe your family should do a little introspection about how you treat Kurds, Armenians, Copts, Jews, Persians, and everyone else in that region before you continue whining about how unfair it is when one of those groups bounces back and kicks *your* butt a bit?  You damned hypocrites.

Posted by Liberal on Feb 28, 2005 at 7:18 AM

Liber,please let us be frank about this situation -not as Ann Franks noval- lying bitch godess .
INFO: The jews that are occuping Palestine are not “ever” descendants of of this region.I could have said Arabs but not to defend you yet!
Russian, Polish and rest of the trash jews are real descendants of gypsies,learnt their begging and conniving trade from hard working peasants. Israelies don’t look anything like a middle-east locals—none.Take the fat terd Sharron and his coherts—typical Russian jews,White northern breed and no features Arab.
Your rant that- No Palestine-where did you dig that garbage up-possible from the sewer gutter-the jewish USA media. I suggest you read your history before you go off tangent.These people of Palestine have been on this land for over 2000 years before the Hebrews jewus’ed with Christ bull shit.
Are you inferring that the poor downtorn jews were kicked out of these lands just before christ’s time and the Palestinians murdered and torched them Jews out?Please, get real, it is a proven known fact that England and America planned the Israel country,covertly—to have a foothold in the future of the middle-east oil. The americans are such stupid fools-instead of having De-Baith’efaction and killing millions in Iraq-we need all of them- De-Jewfaction in zionist USA
Liber—cool off-it is a free country not just for Jews !

Posted by George Archers on Feb 28, 2005 at 8:53 AM