The No-Partner Myth

The “fundamental grievance(s) fueling the conflict” is none that you mentioned.  It is the existence of a Jewish state, Israel, in Palestine.  You refer to “37 years” as if that takes events back to the beginning of time.  37 years ago, Arabs controlled the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem.  The PLO charter, back then, did not call for a Palestinian state in those territories, it called for the destruction of Israel.  A “new myth” is not necessary.  The world has one and it is the myth that the Palestinians and the rest of the Arabs will ever live in peace with a Jewish Israel if they have a viable alternative.

The suicide bombs the past four years are not a “myth.” The call to Jihad by Arafat, the adoration of martyrs and martyrdom operations are not a myth.  The refusal of Arafat to restrain the Al-Aksa Martyrs Brigade which are part of his own Fatah movement from blowing up jewish women and children is not a myth.  The fact that Arafat turned down Barak and Clinton’s offer in 2000 for 97% of the disputed territories and partial right of return is not a myth. The fact that the Palestinians want their own state and want to also move into Israel and take over Israel is not a myth. The fact that Arafat even denied that the Jews had a temple in Jerusalem is not a myth.  The fact that Cairo born Arafat is a Palestinian or gave a damn about peace or the welfare of the Palestinians is a myth!

Putting self interest and grandstanding aside, and looking at history for a moment...and fairly recent history.

It seems to be that in order to reach agreements you need to have leaders on both sides that are willing to agree. Also, all parties on all sides have to be viewed as legitimate representatives of their constituents in order to sell any deal.

After the initial openings between Arabs and Israelis made by President Carter during the First Camp David accords, the stage had been set to really move forward in solving the Palestinian problem.

Unfortunately, during both the Reagan and G.W. Bush Administrations a decision was obviously made to play to the Jewish vote and a policy of “marginalizing” Arafat was begun by the US. While this policy led to solid re-election victory for Reagan and played a major role in the election of GW, it wreaked havoc with advancement and set the stage for the first intifada. It also germinated the seeds of more openly hostile and violent factions within the PLO and significantly undermined Arafat and de facto any real chance for peace.

President Clinton attempted to seriously restart that process and came very close to completing a real deal that would have given the Palestinians some measure of a homeland. Many blame Arafat for the failure of that agreement, but that’s way to easy.

By the time of Clinton’s negotiation between Arafat and Barak, prior US policy has so damaged Arafat and his credibility with his people that he had no choice but to turn it down. To have agreed to the deal, and then be faced with serious disagreement at “home” and probably a defacto rejection of the deal, would have only driven Israel and the Palestinian radicals into even deeper and more intransigent bloodshed.

Arafat was a warrior. I do agree to that view. But he was not an idiot. And he was, despite the view presently being promoted, an excellent politician.

I would argue that by not signing the deal he performed a longer term service to the continuation of the peace process.

The new myth?
Try this one out.
The myth will be in the form of a question.
“Are the Palestinians ready for democracy?”
One already hears this over and over again.
Of course, what this really means is “Are they ready to capitulate?”
The bar will be raised just high enough that it is unattainable.
As if the conditions of living under complete occupation would permit freedom.

To Cary Salsberg & David Simantob,

Yes, it’s true, the Palestinian-Israeli conflict goes back before 1967.  It goes back to the Zionist colonization of Palestine (which, on the eve of the Balfour declaration, was 90& Arab) against the wishes of the vast majority of the native inhabitants.  It also goes back to 1948, with the expulsion of between 500,000 and 750,000 Arabs and the destruction of over 400 Palestinian villages .  Like it or not, these aspects of history are still part of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict. 

However, the fact is that Arafat and the PLO did concede their claim to 78& of their homeland and recognize Israel in exchange for withdrawal from the territories occupied since 1967.  Rather than accept this historic compromise, Israel continued to colonize the West Bank and East Jerusalem; as the article points out, during the Oslo process, the number of settlers in the West Bank doubled to around 200,000 in the West Bank (that doesn’t include East Jerusalem.  Ultimately, it’s the failure of the Oslo process to bring any benefits to Palestinians that led to the end of Oslo and the outset of the Intifada. As for Barak’s generous offer, that’s another story.

Arafat wasn’t the obstacle, it was his refusal to prevent terrorism and incitement against Israel. 

The myth is that the Palestinians want peace.

Hamas and *Arafat* Matyrs Brigade have now publicly renewed their call for a continuation of the policy of suicide attacks, and the destruction of Israel. 

Is this who Israel should negotiate with?  Or is it those leading the Palestinian goverment who are unprepared to put these dogs on a leash?

The great warrior who wanted to liberate Palestine, also supported the invation of Kuwait by Iraq. This great leader and politian who gave the funding for the murder of athletes and children in kibbuttzim is now dead. his great leader who won the Nobel Peace Price, insisted that grammar school text books exclude Israel from its maps. This great father figure was expeeld from Jordan after threatening its soverenty and ignited the lebanese civil war. He will not be missed.

It’s good to see that at least some people see Arafat for the butcher he was.  I celebrate his death and can’t believe that asshole Kofi Annan had the U.N. fly flags at half-mast for that piece of shit.  Liberal But Proud: Arafat was not a warrior any more than Bin Laden is.  Arafat was a terrorist and if there is a hell his sorry ass is perched in one of the hottest spots in the lowest circle.

The fundamental question concerning the Middle East is not Arafat, it’s Israel usurpation of Palestinians rigths and dignity.

How dare a people who were once oppressed become the oppressors of another? How dare they steal another peoples land and claim from Brooklyn, Kiev, and Russia that Palestine is their religious birthright? What about the legitimiate birthright of Palestinians who were born in their land and are now made destitue in refugee camps scattered around the world.

The fact which NEVER gets mentioned is that ISRAEL WAS FOUNDED by TERRORISM! It TERRORIZED the British by blowing up their interests in Palestine which culminated in British withdrawal of Palestine and the creation of the terrorist state and no Palestine.

Israel is the only “democratic” country, and now the United States, that is an militaristic occupier.

The ULTIMATE fact is the Israel has continued to survive due to support from America whose foreign policy is biased against Palestinians and in favor of Israel.

And America has supported Israel because of the financial dominance of the Jewish lobby. AIPAC and AJC and various Jewish organizations are power houses on Capitol Hill.Just look up at any RESOLUTION concerning Israel in the US Congress and the PRO-ISRAELI bias contained within and my ULTIMATE POINT IS PROVEN!

Wow, Alex T. I was just about to write the same thing, thanks because it is the truth. If peace is possible, it’s going to up to israel.

Alex T. Ever thought about the fact that at the time of Israel’s creation the actual proposal was to create two states, Israel and a ‘Palestinian’ state, the latter of which’ territory exceeded any that has later been or will ever be offered again? How did our peace-loving Arab brothers respond? Same as now, with an outright refusal to recognize the legitimacy of Jews in the place of the Jewish people’s birth.

1. The regional conflicts in the middle east existed WAY before 1967 and 1948 and are in fact thousands of years old.  They are more tribal/ethnic than religious.  Arabs and Kurds, Jews, Aremenians, and others have been fighting for a *very* long time.  The conflicts are not territorial skirmishes but have been brutal and genocidal.  When the Israelis are negotiating with the Arabs, they face the reality that if the Arabs ever achieve their stated goal of the destruction of Israel, it will not be a political goal or an occupation of land, it will be genocide...witness what has happened in fairly recent times to the Armenians and the Kurds.
2. Jews did not suddenly appear in the region in the 1940s.  They lived there for thousands of years and were expelled when the Arabs rose to power (a detail folks like Alexi and Marcus overlook); for Jews and Arabs, this conflict is on a much longer time scale than the 20th century.
3. Alexi and Marcus, while you are correct that there is plenty of blame to go around for the current situation (for Israel and the Arabs), no state in their right mind would negotiate with anyone who openly advocates their destruction and the killing of non-combatants, women, and children.  Would you?  Can you imagine America giving in to the demands of Bin Laden after he killed thousands of innocents?  I don’t think so. 
Arafat and the Palestinians have only frightened and hardened the Israelis and most of the world by their intransigent support of terrorism.  By refusing to renounce terrorism and embrace a negotiated solution when given the chance, Arafat continued the Palestinian legacy of never missing an opportunity to miss an opportunity.  That will be his epitaph.

I think Liberal and Proud frames the situation very well. I would only remind you folks who keep bringing up 1967 and 1948 and 37 long years ago.... that right now you live in the year 5765...yes thats right, 5765...the Jewish people have a calendar too,the Romans when they ruled the world by force simply reset it to mark the life of that Jewish rabbi?..what is his name again?Oh you might have heard of him, Jesus Christ is his name.Our world was created in 6 days and on the 7th day he rested. A day for him is like a thousand years for you and me. The world will exist for a thousand years for every day of creation. 5765, only couple hundred years left,now think about that.

This outpouring of “affection” and words of praise on the death of Yasser Arafat would be almost comical, if not for the misery he had inflicted over his lifetime.  A more fitting send-off is found in Hilaire Belloc’s epigram, “Epitaph on the Politician”:

Here richly, with ridiculous display,
The Politician’s corpse was laid away.
While all of his acquaintance sneered and slanged
I wept: for I had longed to see him hanged.

The author admits that “some of” the allegations against Arafat are true and then blames Israel for disseminating these truths until they become a “myth.” The author is an intellectual pervert.

You folks are just plain stupid.  The arabs have attacked the jewish settlers again and again.  And they lost each time.  In ‘67, the date you mention as the “legal” borders, the arabs attacked isreal. Isreal used the pretext of the invasion as a way to actually have defensible borders.  This was so they could have PEACE (something you liberals are supposed to want) --- it was not just a “land grab.” As long as you folks keep aligning yourselves with disorganized, hate-filled, antiamerican criminals and terrorists losers like arafat and most of the politicaly minded palistinians, you will lose elections.  I thought you liberals would be smart enough to figure this out yourselves, but....

Palestinians have taken Araft’s bait, hook, line and sinker. A corrupt, mass murderer, who has left a legacy of wealth to his wife and sorrow to the rest.

He couldn’t negotiate a lasting deal with the greatest deal makers of all-time? Jews and Americans?

Extremist fundamental Arabs have usurpped the legitimate rights of peace loving Palestinians, who, are caught in a 50 year cross fire along with innocent Israelis, and other terror victims (yes, Americans too).

Don’t blame Israel for defending itself from a people bent on it’s destruction.

Arafat’s epitath: he never missed and opportunity to miss an opportunity.

I could write a long and factually-based response to this piece of revisionist trash promulgated by Neve Grodon. However, most of my presentation, based upon fact and truth, has already been presented eloquently in some of the responses posted on this site. The facts are plain. The Arabs the Jews. They will always the Jews. They will always try to drive the Jews into the sea. They spew anti-Semitism in all forms throughout the world media. They will never accept an Israeli state in the Middle East. The Arab mentality and the heinous and everlasting Islamic goal of world conquest, leave no place for a Jewish state in the Middle East. History tries to repeat itself. When the Armenians tried to establish a Christian state within the Ottoman Empire, the Turks impaled 1.5 million of them. The world forgot about that genocide speedily.  knew that the European nations and those of the rest of the world have short memories, and were, as they still are, virulently anti-Semitic. He knew that he could get away with the genocide of the Jews, as the Arabs with willing supporters throughout the world are trying to do today. What is the reason for Iran’s development of nuclear weapons except to wipe out Israel, whose existence they do not recognize. The repeatedly stated goal of the Iranian government is, as one French senior politician so aptly put it, to wipe out “that ty little nation”. Probably the best example of this world-wide conspiracy to destroy Israel and the Jewish people by the Moslem world and their malignant European partners was best expresed in a speech given to the all of the Islamic nations by the Prime Minster of Indonesia who, in the name of Allah, demanded the destruction of the Jews. The Armenian genocide was the precursor for the Holocaust, the destruction of two thirds of European Jewry by the Germans and their willing accomplices throughout the world, especially those notorious European nations that sometimes outdid the s in their hunger for Jewish . It is the one historical event that shows the intractable zenophobia that manifests itself in the Arab world in their desire to destroy Israel. This attitude still infests the diseased minds of the Islamic nations and those European countries who have seen fit in the past to make that continent one large Jewish graveyard. The Europeans, the Islamic world, with the zealous coooperation of that morally bankrupt and anti-American and anti-Semitic organization laughingly known as the United Nations are trying their damnest to destroy the Jews again. This time the target is Israel. Through their support of virulent anti-Semitism (France in particular), one-sided U.N. Security Council resolutions that damn Israel and always fail to mention the homicide ings perpetrated by the Arab barbarians and their misnamed militant groups (they are ist organizations; however the media refuses to designate them so) they intend to perpetrate the destruction of the Jews in the name of Allah and the fallacious Palestinian cause. The Palestinians do not want a two state solution. They want one state, their own Islamic state, which has no room for the Jewish people, and that is they way they will always think. There is no way to deal with barbarians. The Israelis have no obligation to try to establish a Palestinian state along side of it, because the only peace that the Arabs want is a piece of land, and that includes the land that is the birhtright of the Jews,the State of Israel, the only democratic and moral country in the Middle East, and the only place on this G-d’s earth where the Jewish people are really safe. The Arabs and their Islamic ism can go to hell. The Jewish people, in the embodiment of Israel, are here to stay. RJ

Arafat’s death means nothing. The matrix of Israeli occupation still exists in Nablus, Jenin, Tulkarem, Bethlehem, and thousands of other cities and villages in the West Bank and Gaza Strip. The apartheid wall being built deep into the West Bank will still exist (Israel’s argument, that it needs to construct an internationally condemned and illegal barrier on non-Israeli land in order to protect Israeli-only settlements that were also built illegally in the first place, sets a new level of chutzpah even by the standards of Jewish culture). The ritualized daily murder of Palestinians will continue, with nary a peep from the corporate media. Ariel Sharon, one of the few mass murderers in recent history to have reinvigorated a political career thought to have been dead by committing one massacre too many (and openly), will continue to carry out his plan of annexing the choicest pieces of West Bank real estate and resources while cantonizing the remaining territory and offering it as a ‘state’ to those brown-skinned upstarts who dared to defy the Chosen People’s mandate from god. In short, nothing will change.

The Israelis are committing atrocities against the Palestinians just as the Nazis committed atrocities against the Jews.

Unless Israel stops its heavyhanded and illegal activities in the Gaza and the West Bank, there will never be peace in the middle east. With Sharon and Bush in office there is virtually no chance of a middle east peace, no matter what Blair and Bush may say in the White House lawns.

The seed of the Israel-Palestinian conflict is not all with the Palestinians but with the Arab world. How else can one explain that after 56 years there are still Palestinians in refugee camps in Lebanon, Jordan, and Syria?  Israel’s neigbors have put their Arab Palestinian brothers and sisters on purpose in a state of desparation in order to accomplish two objectives:
Divert attention away from their own non-democratic forms of Arab governments who do not provide meaningful opportunities for their young generation.
Second, to rally global idignation against Israel with the purpose of wiping that nation off the map.

Too bad the Palestinians have suffered and continue to suffer at the mercy of their fellow Arabs.

As long as people like Robert keep up with virulent anti-semitic remarks there willnever be peace. My great grand-parents where butchered naked in the snow, shot and their boddies dumped in to an unmarked mass grave in some field in Lithuania. And there crime? they were Jews. Nothing more, nothing else. As far as I can recall the Israelis have never ever done anything like that. But I do recall a crowd of Plaestinians lynching two young Israelis,and then the crowd proudly showing the Israelis bloods in the hands. Similar thing happe in Iraq with the Americans. Rbert why don’t you think twice before comparing Israelis to Nazis and instead concentrate on criticing the Government of Egypt and Syria for allowing the prime time broadcasting of the Protocls of Zion on national television? Thats because people like Robert are closet anti-semites with absolutely no sence of history.

Arafat made it possible for the Palestinians to identify themselves as Palestinians, not as Jordanians, Lebanese or Syrians.  I remember when I watched on black and white television a young woman scream “I am a Palestinian.” That is when I began to understand the Palestinian cause and the non-democratic ways of the Jewish occupiers of their lands.

Erik, get a grip.

What’s going on in the West Bank and Gaza is nothing like what the Nazi’s did.  By making ridiculous comparisons like that you de-value what could otherwise be a useful discussion.  Israel has not tried to commit a genocide of the Palestinians nor acted even remotely like the Nazis...try reading a bit.

Israel certainly has culpability for using the Palestinians as cheap labor for many years while leaving them stuck in a political and national no-man’s land.  Israel and their Arab neighbors could have lifted the Palestinians out of the squalor in which they now suffer.  However, the Israelis used them for cheap labor and the Arabs used them as political cannon fodder.

Their initial struggles brought attention to their plight, but the Palestinians now make their own lives miserable by choosing hatred and violence as core values, canonizing murderers, and allowing corrupt dictatorships to keep them impoverished, humiliated, and nationless.  If the Palestinians decide to have a peaceful democratic government and work cooperatively with Israel and the U.S., Palestine would be a reality and a splendid nation within a decade.

However, by sending suicide bombers against civilians, morters and rockets against suburbs, and killing women, children, and other non-combatants, they harden the hearts of the Israelis and Americans against their plight...the choice is theirs.  It is not reasonable to expect Israel (or any other nation) to subject themselves to or reward terrorism.

What would you do?

Shawn Harper, you are a bit too ignorant to be calling other people stupid. For instance, Israel attacked first in 1956 and 1967, no matter how you spin it. And the author was talking about land grabs since 1967 in the form of settlements in the occupied territories, particularly since Oslo.

I wish people would bother to learn some history instead of regurgitating propaganda. It might actually lead to better mutual understanding and toleration.

Oops, sorry Erik, I meant to say Robert

Robert, you are a moron.  Really.  Did you know that isreal is about 20% arab.  “Palistinian” arab.  That’s not the “palistinians”.  That’s the arabs that are ISREALI CITIZENS. The jews are not rounding up palistinians and executing them like your liberal college professors are telling you.  They GET ALONG with their isreali arabs in their LIBERAL DEMOCRACY, the ONLY liberal democracy in the middle east, you moron.  Read some isreali newspapers!  They’re liberal!  Just like most american Jews!  Just like you!!!  Moron.  The only reason the admittedly somewhat sinister sharon is in power is because the arabs and persians are constantly attacking them, making them want to elect people who will protect them, much like here.  Jews are are biggest donors to palistinian humanitarian causes!  I am not jewish, nor am I related to any, but I know the isrealis are not only our biggest friend in the middle east, but the have the most MORAL government in the middle east—and they are the only people in the middle east who seem to get any thing done besides pick dates and sell oil --- while the other cultures there seem to not be able to build ANYTHING, or even drill their own oil---- they only seem to know how to BLOW THINGS UP, with weapons they’re not smart enough to make but are able to buy with oil that other cultures have managed to find for them.  Moron!

Hey just the facts!

Yes, I have read a lot of propaganda.  Including “Isreal: the U.S.’s watchdog in the Middle East” by the internationalist socialist organization.

I know ALL about the history of isreal, the CIA, etc.  I know the isrealis are far from perfect human beings.  I even know they sold important US secrets to the soviets. You seem to have a little knowlege. Did you know that isreal was attacked the day it gained statehood, by a gang of loser nations that couldn’t even defeat one one-day-old state made up of a people that the germans and french had no problem rounding up and killing.  These people are not only hate filled killers, they are pretty pathetic at it, and these are the guys you are siding with.  Pretty smart.

Hey Liberal AND proud!

You are absolutely right in your assessments and elegant in your writing.  Even though you are a liberal moron.  I could only hope I could express myself so well, were I trying to change minds.  I am only trying to pick fights!  I have honorable reasons for this, reasons you might not understand.

Rock-on

Iskandar,
You appear to be interested in justice for oppressed ethnic minorities, how do you feel about the treatment of Jews, Kurds, Persians, Armenians, and other ethnic groups in Turk and Arab countries?  Do you also speak out against the radical oppression of women in the Arab world?  Or is your interest in justice limited to oppression of Palestinians by Jews?  Your rhetoric seems decidedly anti-Semitic.  Did I misunderstand you?

The Jews claim to be victims but they are the true oppressors of the Palestinian people. It is their terror and blind funding of Israel that perpetuates the violent domination of Palestine by the blood-hound Israeli butchers like Sharon.

Just because “your” grandparents were tortured in Lithuania because they were Jews, does not MEAN the Jews take out their genocide, hatred, and anger on the Palestinians. Somebody has to remind you that Palestinians ARE NOT GERMANS!

And for your additional info. the original Jews of Palestine live in harmony with their Arab majority neighbors in peace. It was afer the founding of the terrorist state of Israel which usurped Palestinian rights and razed their livihood which is the CAUSE of the CURRENT CONFLICT.

Some Palestinians want to drive Jews to the sea, but the Jews of Israel have already drove many STATELESS Palestinians to the sea. What about them, you hypocrates?

The misery that Arafat had upon Israelis *pales* in comparision to the scorn, destruction, and terrorism that Israel meted out to the Palestinians over a period of 55 years!

Hey Iskandar!

Do you know that the palistinians have semetic blood?  That they are semites as wll as arabs?  Did you know that many of these brown skin people killers, the “jews” are also brown skinned?  That they are ethnically brown-skinned (read the bible)? No, they aren’t white like me.  They have a nice olive color to their skin, so you can’t use that white-brown thing against them, like you can me.  You would be better off talking about how the brown skin arabs have been killing hundreds of thousands of other brown skinned peoples in sudan for over a decade.  It’s getting so bad that even the UN, usually giving a free pass to the stupid peoples of the world, has actually woken up to what’s going on there.  Feeling defensive?

Erikfruend blames the Arabs for the plight of the Palestinians. For it is Lebanon, Syria, Jordan which does not give statehood to Palestinians.

The problem with that theory is simple: your a *racist*

You think Arabs are Arabs regardless of their unique national and cultural heritage. To you all Arabs are devoid of boundaries and national allegiances.

You think a Syrian or an Iraqi or a Saudi are all the same because to you all Arabs are the same. I wouldn’t be surprised if you think all blacks and Chinese are the same too!

And why should another nation such as Lebanon, Syria, or Jordan take the responsibility of the crimes of Israel. The last time I checked international law, which Israel and its supporters arrogantly dismiss, an occupied country is the responsibility of its occupier!

Shawn harper your the complete embodiment of the *BLIND ISRAELI SUPPORTER* that I talk about. To you Israel can never be wrong!

You resort to name calling of others (Shawn Harper is a moron) instead of logically arguing your point.

It is hopeless to even waste energy on closed minded bigots who see Palestinians as “brown-skinned” killers and nothing else.

Actually cheryl,

The arabs attacked the jewish enclaves and settlers LONG before there was an isreal. This occured as far back as the late nineteenth century.  THe only thing that kept the violence down was their mutual oppression by the ottomans.  The attacks increased as the arabs grew increasingly alarmed by the increasing numbers of jews.  Then as now, some jews wanted to be nice to the arabs, some wanted to slit their throats for the, it should be obvious to all readers now, famously common arab practice of deliberately killing innocent civilians.  (As Muslims are learning in the Netherlands right now, when you kill non-violent westerners, the west doesn’t get scared, it gets angry.) The brits tried to keep the cycle of violence down, but that proved costly as the zionists used terror to get the brits out of palistine.  When the UN granted isreal statehood, goofy arab thug armies gathered around a tiny nation of refugees and religious nuts.  This little nation saw them coming a mile away.  So did the palistian arabs, who were warned by the goofy arab thugs to leave.  Many did so.  Many who choose to stay were forcibly deported by the religious nut - isrealis.  Both stories are true, as every isreali seems to admit.

Cheryl,are you mssing the right side of your brain? Did you not understand what I was writting about? And to all: Sstdy the real history of the area and you will see that most Palestininas came from Egypt and what is now Syria. And yes lets talk about population transfers. 600,000 jews were expelled from Arab contries during the last 60 years. 700,000 arabs left what is now Israel and the West bank in the same period. This 600,000 Jews prospered because Israel and the world-wide jewish community helped them. The palestinians were left to rot in squalid camps denied citizenship in Iraq, Syria, Jordan and Lebanon, so that there plight can be used against Israel. Turkey and Greece exchanged populations, so did Islamabab and New Delhi, among the many countries that have done it. Thee is nothing worng in it. Additionally, the Palestinians already have a country and its called Jordan. Correct me if I am worng, but what is now Jordan was part of the original Palestine mandate and furthermore the Palestinians are the majority. Just an additional fact so that we understand the mentality of the Arabs. Did you know that it is illegal for Jews to live in Jordan? Trest form of racism.

Dear NeoConsevative_HAWK,

Isn’t this fun?  You are wrong.  I may be a moron, but as a white man I have been blamed for the plight of many more peoples than just the palistinians.  Or brown-skinned folks.  I have been held responsible for the plight of red skinned and black skinned people.  I am used to this tactic, the tactic of a moron.

It wasn’t ME!!!  Oh, well.  If you read my last post, you will see that I do not listen to EVERYTHING my Zionist masters tell me.  And even THEY cannot be everywhere at all times.  I am still allowed to read your information-filled posts, for example.

I do not love the isrealis much.  I DO hate islamic fundementalists though, and the isrealis are good allies in our war.  They do need to be watched, though.  Just like I need watching from time to time.  Moron.

Cheryl,

I wished “my” greatgrandparents were “Just” tortured.

You holocust denier.

I really do not undestand how world leaders could have sent their condolences to such a corrupt and barbaric leader such as arafat. What the world does not seem to understand is that Arafat absolutely never wanted any peace with Israel and that throughout his entire existance as the leader of the PLO all he did was breed terrorism used his own people and especially children to kill themselves in the name of “honour” and sent a cheque to those families for their “righteous deeds”. NO big loss without arafat- all he was a corrupt leader attempting to look like he wanted peace.  I just CAN’T understand how a whole nation can believe such crazy ideologies, and inhummaine behavior.  You will only see an ARAB or a PALESTINIAN killing their own people because they do not value life only hate and death. You will never, ever, ever see an israeli citizen or a jew kill their own people.  WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU?  The sad relaity is that I do not ever forsee peace in the middle east, I do not believe that the Arab world is decent nor honest and everything they stand for is a discrace to their own people.  It is also a crime that good muslims, and Arabs have to suffer and have their name ruined because of these criminals that get away with murder and distruction.

Mary,

They sent their condolences because he was a head of state, that’s all.  It’s politics.  I remember when the isrealis assasinated one of the leaders of hamas.  The western media then immediately found one of this hamas guy’s cousins and interviewed him.  Interesting guy.  They asked him if he thought isreal would kill afafat next.  He said “no way.  The sharon govt won’t kill arafat because they don’t want peace.” There may be a lot of truth to that.  Certain parties benefit from a state of war.  It happens again and again.  If you look closely at arafat and Sharon, neither would have any real political relevence without hateful arabs and fearful isrealis.  Sharon is possibly upset that arafat is dead, because if there is one thing that is true about this article, pressure will be on him to engage the palistinians if they pick a guy who can bring something back to the palistinians.  Fortunately for him, the arabs countries pick their leaders by letting them slice each other up, the most ruthless and bloodthirsty guy is the one left standing, and he is the new leader.  The smart ones leave the country.

Shawn, it still irks me that the media does not even make arafat look half as bad as he was. What’s your take on that?

Mary,

Of course it does.  They don’t tell the truth about him out of respect for the plight of the palistinians and out of a desire not to offend arabs everywhere.  Arabs know thier leaders are corrupt better than anyone, but they don’t like outsiders pointing it out to them.

Elliott, you have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about.  Let’s take your points in order:

<<most Palestininas came from Egypt and what is now Syria>>

You probably got this factoid from Joan Peters book, “From Time Immemorial”, a book which has been totally discredited.  Anyway, it’s not true.  When the Zionists first came to Palestine, Palestine was predominantly Arab.  They had been living there for centuries.  As I said in my post above, on the eve of the Balfour mandate, Palestine was still 90% Arab, even after more than two decades of Jewish emigration.  A small number of Arabs from Syria may have emigrated to Palestine between 1917 & 1947, but they were a tiny minority. 

<<600,000 jews were expelled from Arab contries during the last 60 years. 700,000 arabs left what is now Israel and the West bank in the same period.>>

It’s not true to say this happened in the “same time period.” The ethnic cleansing of 600.000 to 720.000 Palestinians from Israel *preceded* the Jewish exodus from Arab countries. The exodus of some 125.000 Iraqi Jews to Israel started in 1949; that of about 165.000 North-African Jews took place as late as 1955-1957. It is therefore somewhat awkward to claim that Israel had deported its Arabs because of the exodus of Arab Jews that occurred years later.
Also, without minimzing the horrible persecution that Arab Jews faced after 1948, it’s not true that most of them were expelled; rather, most of them fled because of persecution.

<<This 600,000 Jews prospered because Israel and the world-wide jewish community helped them.>>

Again, you’re drawing a false parallel. From a Jewish-Zionist point of view, the immigration of the Jews of the Arab countries to Israel, expelled or not, was the fulfillment of a national dream — the “ingathering of the exiles.” Since the 1930s the Jewish Agency had sent agents, teachers, and instructors to the various Arab countries in order to propagate Zionism. They organized Zionist youth movements there and illegal immigration to Palestine.

For the Palestinian Arabs the flight of 1948 was completely different. It resulted in an unwanted national calamity, the collapse of the Palestinian community, and the fragmentation of a people.

Furthermore, blaming the Arabs of ethnic cleansing is shamefully cynical when it is imputed by the very Zionists who demanded “let my people go”, or by the same Israel that did all it could to force those very countries to let their Jews leave.

<<The palestinians were left to rot in squalid camps denied citizenship in Iraq, Syria, Jordan and Lebanon, so that there plight can be used against Israel.>>

While the Arab countries have indeed treated the Palestinian refugees badly, they are not the primary source of the problem.  The primary problem is that, for the last 56 years, Palestinians have wanted to return to their homes, but have been denied that right by the Israelis.  I agree that Palestinians will have give up the right of return for the sake of peace, but let’s not forget who’s responsible for that problem. 

<<Turkey and Greece exchanged populations, so did Islamabab and New Delhi, among the many countries that have done it. Thee is nothing worng in it Turkey and Greece exchanged populations, so did Islamabab and New Delhi, among the many countries that have done it.>>

You sound a lot like Slobodan Milosevic…

<<Additionally, the Palestinians already have a country and its called Jordan. Correct me if I am worng, but what is now Jordan was part of the original Palestine mandate and furthermore the Palestinians are the majority.>>

Again, you are wrong.  The basis for the “Jordan is Palestine” claim is that Transjordan was attached to Palestine for the first eight months of the British Mandate.  Otherwise, Palestine & Jordan have been culturally, geographically and politically distinct.  Jordan does a large Palestinian population, but all the power belongs in Hashemite/Beduoin hands.

Even if you consider Jordan to be a Palestinian state, it doesn’t excuse the occupation and colonization of the West Bank, Gaza Strip, and East Jerusalem and the denial of any rights to the 3 million Palestinians living there.

Peter,

I have no tolerance for intellegent, smart people on this thread.  GET OFF! 

Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought most of these arab states were “engineered” by the brits, somewhat similiar to your yugoslavia analogy.

BTW, the excuse for the isrealis taking land from the palistinians was never that “Jordan is the palistinian homeland”.  The excuse is that the isreali population centers need a buffer from people who act like jews used to thousands of years ago in the old testament.  “And then god said: go into their lands and kill them and keep the virgins.” or something similar.

Sorry folks,

my zionist masters just called...I am needed elsewhere.  Jeeze, you’ve got to run pretty fast to keep one step ahead of those illiterate, willfully ignorant jew-haters.

NeoConservative Hawk accuses me of being a racist by stating that Arabs are unified. Well, ever heard about Pan-Arabism,a wide spread Arab movement that preaches solidarity among all Arabs, as espoused by numerous parties in the Arab world. Yet, the Arabs refused to create a Palestinian state when they had the opportunity from 1948 through 1967. Likewise they have refused to absorb Palestinian refugees. In Lebanon, Palestinians are denied to work in as many as 70 professions and are discriminated against. The Arab world abuses the Palestinians just to make them miserable and grow up with hate. Note that Australia and Norway received vietnamese boat people. Israel accepted Ethiopians.  The Arab world dislikes Palestinians and treats them shameleslly in their own countries. So the message is simple, peace in the middle-east requires a true acceptance of Jews in the middle East, as owners of their land and not as second class citizens. Israel is a threat to Arab governments because it houses democratic institutions. Erik

The difficulties in finding a solution are clearly defined by the rhetoric flying around in here.

In order for this to be solved, the Torahs and the Korans are going to have to be put away.

The religious issues are simply not going to be solved in the MODERN world...because the only religious solution is the subjugation or destruction of one or other of these peoples.

The grown ups are going to have to COMPROMISE. And in a compromise...neither side will ever be completely happy. But if either side is REALLY interested in peace, then that is what they have to accept. PERIOD.

I understand the emotion and history tied up in Jerusalem. But the fact is that it’s either declared an international city...which I don’t agree with because I certainly don’t view it with the same level of religious intensity as both these parties (I’m a Catholic). But it is deeply felt by both these parties. And HONESTLY, both parties have a legitimate claim.

President Clinton’s plan wasn’t the first time that the idea of splitting the city was broached. But that solution is the kind of “King Solomon” solution that really comes close to emotionally satisfying both parties.

Israel has agreed to trade land. They’ve said it on numerous occassions, and rightly so. I’m sure in their hearts the Isrealis understand and appreciate the Palestinians need and RIGHT to a homeland, given Israel’s own history.

The ongoing bloodshed has become completely futile. It solves nothing for either side, and only provides cannon fodder for the extremists on both sides.

It’s time to put the guns away.

Setting aside the emotionalism on the various sides, there are only a few main possible outcomes in this crisis:

1) solidification of some form of partition into two-states
Variant A) Busharon version with settlers on WB and with or without wall.
Variant B) Gush Shalom’s version: 2-states, no wall, no settlers

2) Ethnic cleansing by Jews of Palestinians out of West Bank

3) Islamic state: removal of Jews and Christians from Israel and WB

4) Binational state

My view:
Option 1 is very unstable and can only be a temporary solution since Palestinian economy and land is so weak and undesirable

Will not remove drivers for Options 2 and 3.

Option 2, “Transfer”, favored by Avigdor Lieberman and sadly a high percentage of Israelis (consistently a majoriy of Israeli Jews), will lead inevitably to a all-gloves off struggle for Option 3.

Option 3, unlikely while the US retains sufficient power, could become more likely if a trade off is needed to secure broader peace in larger region for securing global economic life blood.

Option 4, Binational State, is the only outcome which could afford some stability, allow Jews to remain in the region, provide Palestinians with a viable economic life, and would provide Jews a connection to Arabs which could bridge a very prosperous future throughout the Arab world.

Of course, it means the end of Israel as a Jewish state, but this is also inevitable due to demographic changes of birth and death rates.

I am Jewish, speak some Hebrew, a former president of my university’s Hillel, someone who has visited and done business in Israel over a dozen occasions.

Like Avraham Burg, the former Speaker of the Israeli Knesset, I favor a single, binational state.
Call it Palesrael.
One Person, One Vote, One State

Liberal,
What’s going on in the West Bank and Gaza is nothing like what the Nazi’s did.  By making ridiculous comparisons like that you de-value what could otherwise be a useful discussion.

Actually, what’s going on in the West Bank and Gaza is exactly like what the Nazi’s did - what they did before 1941 when they came up with the infamous ‘final solution’.

Nazi 1935 Nurnberg Laws revoked citizenship from the German Jews, which is exactly the status of the Palestinians on the territories. Before 1941 the Nazis were trying to expell Jews from Germany (and take their property) by terrorizing them, which is exactly what the Likudniks are doing to the Palestinians on the territories.

It’s very similar and the motive is the same - ethnic hatred.

Thanks.

I can’t believe Ringo Starr is dead!

You don’t understand that Mary is because YOUR BLIND! No Israeli supporter can ever seem to understand how much Arafat meant to his people. It’s shear hatred and character assassination that was scapegoated on him was unimaginable.

His biggest flaw was to EVER SIGN THE ‘93 Oslo accords which vanquished Palestinian peoples right to return to their homeland, gave up their dignity, and their cherished freedom which are under “checkpoints” and “assassinations.”

Its interesting to see the robotic efficiency with which Israel aupporters respond to any criticism of Israel in the media, even the most mild criticsm like this article. Was an AIPAC action alert sent out? Is this writer to now be labelled with the “self-hating Jew” slander? Or did I already miss the post where someone said that? Its amazing how desperate the Zionists are to control the information flow. That alone should tell you something.

Spin it all the way you want, but never forget that so long as there is an occupation, there will be resistance. Ask de Gaul and Mandela..

Richard Julis seems to think he know plenty about the Armenias genocide and how it relates to Israel, and the holocaust of WWII.  Well how about this: each time the American congress discussed acknowleding the Turkish atrocity against the Armenians, declaring it a genocide, the Turkish government went to their closest ME ally, Israel, and got the Israelis to direct their lobbies in Washington DC to make sure that acknowledgment of this genocide wouldn’t be accepted.  Israel’s lobbies always win in DC.  If you support Israel, you are no friend of the Armenians.

To Michael:

If you miss something, I’ll help you: yes, the author is a self-hating jew.  And you might be also if you repeat that anti-Semitic garbage about Jews controlling media, finances, etc.
Your post alone tells that about you.

V.I.

I’m back.

Neocon,

If you are an arab, I’ll forgive you.  If you are an american, arab or otherwise, I have to ask you to please spell the contraction of ‘you are’ “you’re,” as in “you’re a moron.” Please stop with the “your blind!” stuff.

Arafat never needed anyone to assasinate his character for him.  Unlike Osama, Arafat appears so obviously shifty and corrupt in his interviews that he is just an embarrassment to anyone he represents.  Perhaps THAT is why those isrealis kept him alive so long, to keep the palistinians looking so shabby.  Maybe he was an isreali agent… The truth is that even Arafat knows that the isrealis could kill every palistinian in the area in a matter of weeks if they wanted to.  This is something that the sudanese ARABS have not been able to accomplish with their current genocide. They’ve had ten years to kill their blacks, and even have the arab league defending them, yet they haven’t go the job done.  Typical.  Even arafat knew that a living palistian is better than a “dignified” palistian rotting in the street, which would only take a few days to accomplish if the isrealis decided to act like arabs.

MICHEAL,

I did not get any AIPAC action alert.  Arafat’s passing has got a lot of press.  This article was linked to the YAHOO article.  I am not jewish. I used to make fun of jewish people when I was a kid.  Now I make fun of Islamic fundementalists.  Yes, there are a lot of Jewish folks in high positions in the media… but you know, there’s a lot of jews in high positions in medicine, in orchrestras, in western governments, banking and trade.  This is because they are smart and competent, and they know how to do things besides sell oil and blow stuff up.  If you want to be a critic of a controled media, why don’t you pick on the government controled media in the arab world, and the fact that arab journalists with half a brain are terrified to write anything critical of the islamists because goofy illiterate relious people who only know how to kill people in a sloppy way crawl out like cockroaches to kill these brave men and women. Moron.

I expect the stooges in the U.S. government and the media will continue to participate in the dissemination of Israeli propanganda. Like the wacko fundamentalists that control Bush the, equally crazy Zionists that control Israeli foreign policy are the real obstacles to peace. However, a brainwashed and brain dead American public is fed and digests a continuous barrage of lies and myths.

One myth was that Arafat had a chance for peace and refused it at Camp David; when, in reality, both sides wanted further negotiations and the peace process broke down at Saba when Mr. barak walked out. Arafat by recognizing Israel gave up seventy-eight percent of Palestinian land so the negotiations were only over twenty-two percent of the land and Israel did not include East Jerusalem but substituted the Dead Sea, and said they were willing to give up ninety five percent of the land.Even if it were 95 percent, which it was not, it would have been 95 percent of twenty two percent.

Another lie is the so called security fence. It is not a security fence at all; it is part of what has been called the matrix of control whereby Israeli infrastructue divides the West Bank into cantons and by so doing control the access to water and every aspect of Palestinian life. The Palestinians occupy discontiuous patches of land and are virtually confined to concentration camps.

There will never be a chance for peace as long as Bush, Sharon, and their Christian Fundamentalist-Zionist minions are in power.

But, no matter how they try to demonize Mr. Arafat his greatness lies in the fact that he refused to be defined by the Israelis who opined that there was no such thing as a Palestinian. Arafat defined a Palestinian cause and a Palestinian dream that will some day come to pass.

Where did I make a comparison of any of this to the holocaust?

You want to disagree with me? Fine. You don’t like my opinions? Fine.

But don’t put words in my mouth.

Thanks people, this gave me a funny reading. All this name calling and such… Remembered me my good old high school time.

Anyways…

RIP old man. You were a warrior, a symbol and many will miss you. Even our enemies who will have no-one to target for a time. If only the religious nuts had not killed Rabin, you might have been able to see your state in peace before your death.

Hawk, michael, mar, John Dente, you are old-fashioned anti-Semites...try to be a bit more original in your hate mongering...the “Jews Control Everything” slur is getting pretty dated.  If you really believe this, consider getting some professional help...paranoid delusions are easily treated these days.

monarch: hating people who kill your children and want you and your families dead is not ethnic hatred...it’s sanity.  Personally, I’m not fond of the Likudniks and think the settlers are religious kooks.  However, until recently, they were fringe elements of Israeli culture.  The MAINSTREAM Palestinians (and much of the Arab world) preach open hatred and glorify the murder of Jews and Americans...these are not nice, misunderstood folks, these are cold-blooded killers teaching their kids to be the same.  You can try to blame it all on the Jews, but then I’ll suspect your name belonged in the list above. 

Taking responsibility for your own actions is usually a good first step towards solving problems.  Israel has plenty of problems on their side that need to be addressed (as I said earlier).  There is already quite a bit of introspection on the Jewish side and if the Arabs made even a half-hearted attempt to look reasonable, the Jewish doves would win-out. 

However, all the Israelis see is children with AK-47 toys chanting “kill the Jews” and parents saying they wish they had more kids to turn into suicide bombers...no sane person is likely to feel dovish about those folks.  The Arabs need to do some introspection.

Shawn, nicely put...rock on!

Vanedor, warriors do not target women, children, and non-combatants...we call those folks cowards and murderers. 

I hope the Palestinian people choose a real leader and build a state that can exist side-by-side with Israel.  However, as long as they continue to pick corrupt and cowardly leaders such as Arafat, they are doomed to continue the lousy existance they suffer now. 

Their Arab “brothers” continue to use the plight of the Palestinians to distract their own populations from corrupt governments plundering the natural resources while leaving the Arab populations poor and uneducated.  They incite violence and pay the “martyrs” while refusing Palestinians work or entry permits to help lessen their suffering.

Arafat was a disaster for the Palestinian people and a symbol of all that is wrong in that region.  We can only hope their next leader is different (and that he/she will inspire the Israeli’s to choose a real leader too).

Some of those jewish women are pretty tough…

I am the king of the name callers!  I prefer to call names than make rational arguement!

Stooges?  I’m a stooge?  I’d rather be a Stooge of isreal (if that were possible, how much are they paying?) than a palistian stooge of the mullahs.  The mullahs smile as they strap bombs to the bodies of palistian childeren.  They used palistinian murder squads to kill moderates and monarchist in iran—and I’ll bet they didn’t pay well.  If the mullahs in iran wanted to hire me, they’d have to pay me VERY well.  The pay ME very well for being the lighting rod for muslim hate.  They’ve obviously got a lot of hate to go around, Arafat even called Sadat a Quisling and called for his asassination 2 years before the islamists did it. I’d rather they spend a lot of that hate on the jews than on me and my family.  They are always calling each other stooges for outsider groups and killing each other.  It works over there so they think it works here, where we just laugh at them.  I call liberals blind morons, but I look for documentation before I call them stooges of the mullahs.  Where as they run around shooting into crowd of thier own people, like they did yesterday.  Unless that was more zionist propaganda. I don’t have to tell you what these people are like, they’re like the people who killed rabin, but bigger morons.

Yes, Arafat did use the “terror option,” and if you take a principled stance on such methods (i.e. if you also condemn Israel’s use of terror in 1948, in Sharon’s reprisal attacks on civilians in the 1950s, in 1979 with the indiscriminate shelling of villages in Lebanon that killed thousands, and the most massive deliberate attacks on civilan populations in the history of the world, carried out by the US in 1945), then by all means condemn him as well.
But history will record his astonishing accomplishments, turning a dispersed, defeated, dispossessed people, whose cause Israel, the US, and the “front-line” Arab states would have liked to sweep under the rug, into a legitimate, unified, and fiercely independent national movement.  The compromise that Arafat and others in the Fatah leadership adopted in the mid-1970s, of a two-state solution along the pre-1967 border, and which they worked tirelessly to sell to the Palestinian people (and in many cases were killed by rival Palestinian groups, is now the position of every nation in the world, with the exception of Israel and the US.
It is now the world’s only superpower that is isolated in the Middle East, while the Palestinians, who barely existed when Arafat started, have the whole world behind them.
Long after Bush and Sharon are minor footnotes, historians will marvel at the accomplishments of Arafat and his people.

Daniel,
It says alot about your ethics that you consider terror an “option”; I hope no one chooses that “option” for you or your family. 
I am not a fan of Bush or Sharon.  If Sharon attacked civilians, he is a terrorist too and I condemn him...I think I mentioned that I think the Israelis (and Americans) need new and better leaders too.
Perhaps you can refresh my memory as to when in the 1970s Arafat and Fatah were keen (in Arabic) on a two-state solution along pre-1967 borders.  They have at various times duped the West into thinking they might consider it while in Arabic always re-assuring their constituents that their goal remained the destruction of Israel...it was part of their charter!  Your statement is tough to believe in view of the overwhelming evidence to the contrary. 
As for the world being behind the Arabs, this is not a new situation for Jews and I don’t think they care much about it anymore.  The “world community” lost their right to cast ethical aspersions when they sat back and watched the Jews get slaughtered refusing even to provide sanctuary for refugees.  These are the same self-righteous cowards who recently sat back and watched the Tutsis get slaughtered by the Hutus and then stepped in after the Tutsis made a miraculous come-back to make sure the Hutus were protected.  They’re the same ones who stood by while Saddam Hussein used chemical weapons against the Kurds.  Are these the defenders of ethics you refer to?
As for history, Arafat brought attention to the national aspirations of the Palestinains, but his brutal and unethical means have kept them from achieving their state.  Ghandi was a giant; MLK was a giant, Mandella is a giant, Arafat was a scumbag; the world and the Palestinians are much better off without him.

Oh...that’s the reason.

Someone else is using my nom de plueur.

I thought NO ONE ELSE IN AMERICA would admit to being a liberal.

how can 1 country invade another and then bleat to the rest of the world it dont want peace ,peace shouldnt even come into it. its jus another excuse saying that arafat stood in the way of any peace.as long as the americans use israel to further they aims in the middles east i fear more blood shed for the palistinians

Good points daniel.

I certainly do condemn the jews who used terror against britian.  It was not isreal, but the hard core militant zionists who did this.  There was no isreal then.  Sharon was a bastard back then.  And he’s probably not much better now.  Lebanon is a complicated matter, as both sides have targeted civilians in the conflict there.  The isrealis are simply better at it, but unfortunately, they are held back by the US and their own squeemishness, which is exploited by the muslims to give them time to regroup and rearm.  They should just conquer them, as that would be easier and bring more peace in the long run.  I don’t know how I feel about the US last military actions in WWII (other than our complete reconstruction of Germany and Japan) I think it was wrong, even though the Japs attacked us first.  We did a lot of ugly things during WWII.  We also bombed the hell out of German population centers.  We killed prisoners sometimes.  But the sooner we ended that war, the better.  I especially do not like the dropping of atomic weapons because I think it was more sending a lesson to stalin than it was to get the japs to surrender, which they were considering already.  As all you arabs should take note of, surrendering to the americans was the smartest things the japanesse have ever done.  Look at their country now.  Second largest economy in the world, I think.

But I am so tired of this liberal: Castro has outlasted a whole bunch of american presidents crap.  So did Stalin, so did arafat, so did saddam.  Big deal.  We have term limits.  We are smart enough not to trust our leaders for more than eight years, regardless of who.  Plus, these guys aren’t elected anyway, so it’s easy to stay in power if you’re ruthless enough and sleep lightly.  I’ve got news for you: we’re all going to be minor footnotes in history—and if reincarnation in the cards for us, it’s very, very likely we will come back as an indian or a chinese.  The way the arabs have been pissing off the rest of the world, it’s not too likely they’re gonna come back as arabs.  But I don’t believe this stuff anyway.

How pathetic that we miss the real issue on all the dicusion. RELIGION. Voila! Fundamentalists on both sides, with the minons moron politicians vomit hate in every word the speak.

Pretend that religious intolerance is only Muslin is just a joke. In a teocratic democracy as Israel is, who calls the shots are the religious freaks always influence by the right wing fascist under the cover of orthodox religious creed.

Let have secular states, let have a strict division between religion a state...but I am affraid for their minds, with the exception of few, are allready poissoned.

Do not let religion pervert the message of peace or love or science. Stop their parasit social status, have all those orthodoxes fundamentalist in madrasas and yeshivas work as anyone else.

“Traditional Jewish and Muslim laws also operate on the assumption that indiscriminate mingling of the sexes will destroy the social order. To avoid this, both communities structure daily life so that men and women are effectively separated from one another. Work, amusement, travel, even family relations are rigorously regulated. The Halakha requires men not to gaze at women; Muslims restrict contact between by isolating women from male spaces through the veil and harem. Males and females each inhabit their own sharply defined societies; the two sexes rarely deal with each other freely and familiarly, especially in Muslim society.

These sex regulations are more consistently enforced by the rich and the city-dwellers; the poor cannot afford them. Thus the impression exists that Judaism and Islam are preeminently middle-class, urban religions. For both, the city merchant came to epitomize the pious believer - an irony, for the Halakha and Shari’a both stringently prohibit usury, forcing merchants to contrive legal fictions in order to charge interest. As long as the letter of the law is fulfilled, the Jew or Muslim has acted correctly; here especially, it is the deed, not the intention which prevails.”

To Daniel:

Your post is a lousy propaganda and I’ll show you why:
Arafat did not use the “terror option”, it was his ONLY option.  Otherwise nobody in the world would even noticed that group of Arab settelrs in Judea and Samaria who were proclaimed by Arab lendlords and Arab Moslem fanatics a “Palestinian people”.
Jewish people did not use terror in 1948.  Can you bring up facts of a such terror?  You can’t.
But Arabs used terror against Jews; example?
When five Arab states attacked state of Israel in 1948, the REGULAR ARMY OF EGYPT destroyed all Jewish villiges and murdered all inhabitants in those villages on its way.

You are talking about “Sharon’s reprisal attackes on civilians in 1950s"… You are either don’t know what you are talking about or you are a vicious hypocrite.  “Civilians” who murdered Jewish children in schools are not “civilians” even if they murder “only” at night, but in day time are “peaceful civilians”.  They are MURDERERS and Sharon dealt with them as such.

You are talking about “indiscriminate shelling of villages in Lebanon in 1979"… Again cheap propaganda… It is exactly those villages from which “peaceful Arabs” sneaked into Israel to murder Jewish children.

Arafat’s “astonishing accomplishments” in fact those that he showd that TERRORISM WORKS. It is really astonishing that so-called “international community” applaused to the muss murderer of Jews.
His “accomplishments”, with the complicity of “international (anti-Semitic) community”, brougth us to September 11th.  But it’s nothing unusual; as alwyas, it is just started with the Jews…

You are ignorantly talkig about “pre-1967 border"… It is not the border, it is CEASE FIRE LINE. 

Mixing the terms and re-writing the history, your kind want people to forget about the history and plain human decency.  In vain…

Historians will “marvel at the accomplishents of Arafat and his people” as much as they marvel accomplishments of Adolf Hitler and “his people”.

A LIST OF JEWISH SCUMS-thanks to WRH-best infosite
***********
The Palestinians are like crocodiles, the more you give them meat, they want more”.... Ehud Barak, Prime Minister of Israel at the time - August 28, 2000. Reported in the Jerusalem Post August 30, 2000

“ [The Palestinians are] beasts walking on two legs.” Menahim Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, “Begin and the Beasts”. New Statesman, 25 June 1982.

“The Palestinians” would be crushed like grasshoppers ... heads smashed against the boulders and walls.” “ Isreali Prime Minister (at the time) in a speech to Jewish settlers New York Times April 1, 1988

“When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle.” Raphael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defence Forces, New York Times, 14 April 1983.

“How can we return the occupied territories? There is nobody to return them to.” Golda Maier, March 8, 1969.

“There was no such thing as Palestinians, they never existed.” Golda Maier Israeli Prime Minister June 15, 1969

David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): “If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?” Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121.

Ben Gurion also warned in 1948 : “We must do everything to insure they ( the Palestinians) never do return.” Assuring his fellow Zionists that Palestinians will never come back to their homes. “The old will die and the young will forget.”

“We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to live here as slaves.” Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.
*******FREE PALESTINE OF THE JEWISH BIGHT ******
My take--IsraOil
Like it folks but the Jews in Palestine do not belong there.Most Israel Jews are from Russia origin.Just because they call themselves whiteHebs,does not make them landlords. These white phonie Jews are not the original Jews or any blood line from the middle east.Just money hungry gypsies,taken a dead religion and used it to for personnal gain.The only religion--if you got ooddles of money and enfluence,you are allowed to join the jewish club.Try to convert to their religion and see them throw you out.Jews are racists!
Most of the above posters,who have blinders, ought to read some history.Before Isreal was created,the Brits allowed some Jews into Palestine.Good people of Palestine welcome them.However,the greedy Jews wanted more of their clan to come.Brits decided to place a quota--98,000 a year. Not enough says the Jews. Brits could see the Arab up rising. The invader Jews got support from the american Jewish industrialists--guns bombs money.
King David hotel--Brits stationed in the hotel got the biggist blast--200+ dead.
A large milk truck was loaded with explosives and driven under the hotel.Later, the jewish(freedom fighters) thugs,caught several Brit officiers and executed them and left them hinging and strung up onto the olive trees. Once the Brits came to retreive them---the whole area blew up.
So Bull shittttters, anyone that tells me that the jews are such lovable creatures are full of it.Arafat was the true freedom fighter.
EVERY MAJOR WAR CAN BE TRACED TO THE JEWS.Sad but these people need control. America and Britin are in deep Do Do.Please read about the U.S.S Liberty-UGLY Americans are stupid as the English.

Mustafa - good points.  Religion has been an effective tool in controlling the peoples of the middle east (and most of the rest of the world).  However, I don’t think you can blame religion (including the misogynism present in orthodox Judeo-Christian-Islam) for the present situation there.

The middle east conflict is about oil and politics.  The Arab states are run by dictators who line their pockets and the pockets of their clans at the expense of the great majority of their Arab bretheren.  They use the tried-and-true methods of scapegoating (Jews are always good for this, but Kurds, Armenians, and Persians work well too) and religion to keep their masses from paying attention to the corruption at home.

Nothing will change there until either the oil runs out or the Arabs overthrow their corrupt dictators.

george, you should really go back on your medication.

Liber--you are not very nice,you need some eduacation--like a trip to the back of our shad.Big whack across the rump will do you good.Wake-up goof---people are getting killed-for what? ISRAOIL.
Are you so mental you can not see the evil in Jews.None what I said is untrue--what is your problem goofball?

I like you Mustafa Rabin!!!  I don’t care if you are jewish or muslim.  I hate these clerical castes too—and so did Jesus!!

Just look at what the papists did to everyone in europe in the middle ages:  They killed anyone they found (execpt for the official clerics, of course) with a bible. (They didn’t want anyone to see what jesus really said.) Look at the cycles of violence as england changed from a catholic to a protestant country.  Learn from our history, our mistakes!!

All you arabs and persians should wake up to the fact that your real problems aren’t the jews, it’s the political clerics.  Give them power, and people die.  A lot of people.  We in america could even learn some lessons from france about this: you preach religious hate there - they kick you out of the country.  People we released from guantomino bay were immediately thrown in jail upon their arrival in france, no trial, no new crimes, no lawyer, no nothin’.

George,

Those are some interesting quotes.  And I believe them.  But you are still a moron.  And a goof.

The isrealis have no great love and respect for the palistinians, that’s true.  But neither do the Lebanese arab muslims.  Or any other arabs for that matter, who view palistianians as second class, at best.  They only like the palistinians when matters of isreal are the topic at hand.

Occasionally you can find some examples of isrealis saying mean things about the palistinians, but the way average palistinians act and talk ......... if I was jewish I’d kill every last one of them.  UN be darned.

George, I guess my problem is that my eduAcation (your word) came through travel and reading and in universities rather than behind a shad (your word).

The problem with getting an EDUCATION is that it helps you understand the world around you better.  If you can read, you might want to try broadening your horizons beyond the neo-Nazi literature you seem to be drowning in.  If you learn a little about the world outside your militia, you might find alot of nice people from a variety of backgrounds (including even Jews!) who might help you become a better person.

...and I apologize for the comment about medication...you’re correct, it’s not nice...I shouldn’t lump hateful racist scum together with the many good folks who just suffer from mental illnesses.

oy vey.
Europeans have been killing each other throughout history. It isn’t even over in the Balkans.
The United States had a civil war. No one who has power over another or who attempts to gain it is “peaceful”. When the US gov’t was pushing the Indians further and further west, was it the Indians who didn’t want peace?  Take away Israel’s biblically claimed right to exist and they have only the same excuse that anyone has - they have the military power to exist. Since they have inspired the hatred of the 100 million + Arabs who are their neighbors they had best hope that they always have that power - demography is not on their side, however. What does our alliance with Israel, and now imitation of Israel, do for the US strategically? How does being friends with 6 million Israelis make up for creating bitter enmity in a billion muslims? You may claim moral superiority, but if no one else believes you it is spitting into the wind. All those pictures flowing out of Falluja and Abu Ghraib make an awfully big loogy.

Shawn--you don’t need medication---just lots of loving from mama!Did you know that the first most settlers arriving in america were convicts.France rounded up prostutes and sent most to the new americas.What a wonderful sinister breed developed. Dr. Frankinstien would love to copy them.It would of save him from shoveling graves-for the dead!

George K., they say you can judge a person by the friends they keep.  While Israel and the US are certainly not paragons of virtue, they are far far better than the corrupt dictatorial hateful regimes in the Arab world.  I’m pretty sure you would be alot happier living in the US or in Israel than in Saudi Arabia or Gaza.

By your logic, we should have allied with Stalin and Mao since there were billions of Communist Chinese and Soviets...many more than in the few western democracies...so what if they were brutal dictators? Do you have any ethics or are you purely guided by demographics?

In this whole string of comments, I’ve seen a lot of overgeneralization on all sides, lots of narrowing people down to “Israelis,” “Arabs,” “Jews,” “Palestinians,” or _whatever_.  I hear that so much these days in so many contexts, and you know what it leads to?  More of the same old shit, humans fighting and bickering or even outright killing each other because it keeps going around and around.  Frankly, I think that is what will be the biggest obstacle to peace in the Middle East, or almost anywhere in the world you care to name, for that matter.  Occasionally somebody does think more deeply and realize that people are individuals, but more often than not, people just reduce each other to categories.  The bottom line is, when everyone wants peace, we will damned sure find a way to achieve it, but not until then.

Hi George,

Now, that’s what I like!!

While my american text books never dwelled much on the fact, the early european settlers were certainly not europe’s “best people.” Convicts is kind of stong word, and would be better applied to Australia, where they, just like us, wiped out an aboriginal population.  Many of the earliest americans had been jailed in england, but that was just for having the wrong religious beliefs in the wrong place.  I’m sure many of you muslims understand this situation.  What else?  Oh, yeah, as far as a breed is concerned, we are unfortunately very ethnically divided and are becoming more so.  Soon americans of european dissent will become a minority.  I don’t care what color we eventually end up, but i’d like us to be a bit more unified, as our diversity creates misunderstandings and causes us to vote in strange ways.  We do have our share of sinister types, but they are mostly kept in check by our system.  Please tell Dr. Frankenstein that he need not copy us, as we have our unemployed just like everywhere else.  He could just hire them!

There’s no point in posting here anymore if anyone can steal your identity and post their venom in YOUR NAME.

To the creep that is spewing nonsense and disparaging me with it in the process.

You are a sad, pathetic little person. You are the type of closed minded simpleton that liberalism actually protects.

YOU are an example of the type of extremism that needs to be rooted out.

Your previous name was Liberal “but” proud.  Mine was Liberal “AND” Proud.  However, I will change my posts from now on to make the difference clearer and just call myself “Liberal”.

What venom was I posting in your name...can you be a bit more specific?  And are you referring to MY views as extremist?

Yes, I admit I made a typo the other day..and put but where I should have put and.

I apologize for that.

Liberal AND Proud

No problem.  I didn’t mean to usurp your name.  I’d still like to know what I said that bugs you so much...I put down an overt neo-Nazi type, but didn’t think I was spewing venom.  (although the medication comment was admittedly in poor taste as it unfairly might hurt folks suffering from real illnesses).  What did I say that was extremist or venomous?

Dear Jews
Here is a state called Israel ,established around a religion.
Imports people from South America to Brooklyn, from India to Ethiopia. With the material support of zionists in America , immigrant Israel drives out indigeous people from their land. An Ukranian immigrant barely speaking Arabic or Hebrew, serving in IDF stops elderly Palestinians in check points and asks his ID book? A jewish bastard immigrating god knows from where, into Palestine with a gun in his hand supplied by zionist state, prevents an elderly Palestinian man from going into his field. And here brainwashed jewish gangsters fabricating countless reasons justifying the ongoing crimes committed against Palestinians.
Of course holocaust was never happened and its fabrication and exageration of a financially powerful Jewish lobby losing their interests in Europe.  If jews were really subjected to holocaust , they themselves would never allow similar treatment to the others.
Of course holocaust was embellished and detailed with lies to justify a “homeland” for the jews.
American jews were in the forefront of the colonization of Indian lands nad decimation of native people in US. They are well experienced in dispossesing others. Their can only sustain their well being by sucking bloods of other nations. You will never ever see jews living in the same country isolated from the rest of the world. They need others to suck their blood to sustain their life.

Dear V.I.,
I welcome you to draw your own conclusions of Arafat’s morality.  My point was not to defend his methods, although I stand by my very partial list of Israeli (and pre-statehood Zionist) acts of terrorism.

But your post helps prove the point about the monumental accomplishments of Arafat and the movement that he led.  You describe the Palestinian nation in its entirety as a “group of Arab settlers in Judea and Samaria who were proclaimed by Arab landlords and Arab Moslem fanatics a “Palestinian people”.” Go ahead and believe that there is no such thing as the Palestinian people.  But you must also acknowledge that if you were to utter anything like this statement, not just at the UN (which to you is just a bunch of anti-semites), but in any official forum in the US, on the floor of the US Congress, and even in a session of the Israeli Knesset, you would be either laughed or thrown out of the room.  You might not like that, but it is a fact, and one for which Arafat deserves credit.

OK, maybe I was over the top. LOL. Not the first time.

I probably agree with you more often than not.

I overreacted to the venom being directed YOUR way, and assumed (yes...I know) that you were the guilty party.

Again. I apologize.

this is truly a sad trail of vituperative racist commentary to what is an excellent article

thank you, Neve & thank you ITT

LAP, Thank you!

Cem, did you know Jews also cause hurricanes and earthquakes?  But you’d better be careful since they’re probably monitoring your phones and computer.  Wacko.

Daniel, I think most of us don’t question the Palestinians’ identity or plight but rather their ends-justify-the-means approach.  Their identity has been broadly recognized for quite a long time now...when will it be time for them to abandon terrorism and adopt negotiation and non-violent resistance as their primary means of communicating?  It’s pretty clear to most folks that if terror advanced their cause at one point, it’s certainly not doing so now. 

Also, I’m curious, do you think the UN is balanced and fair?  They have 1 Jewish state and dozens of Arab and more Muslim states who act as a block and retaliate against states that oppose them...the UN has been quick to condemn Israel and slow to speak out against the transgressions of Arab states against Jews, Kurds, and ot