Bush & company’s theft of the election was a crime so obvious that it requires more effort to deny than to affirm. This rip-off was as flagrant as the L.A. cops’ assault on Rodney King, Kerry’s stellar soldiering in Vietnam, or Bush’s lousy record in the Texas Air National Guard, and yet this national calamity is being dismissed as a delusion.… return to article
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Reader Comments (158)“This rip-off was as flagrant as the L.A. cops’ assault on Rodney King, Kerry’s stellar soldiering in Vietnam”
Rodney, never met a person i did not want to hit over and over again, King? Mr violent himself!
John, 4 months in Vietnam with 3 injuries, Kerry.
Yeah, the analogy is pretty much right. LOL!
Posted by youAreRight!!! on Nov 16, 2004 at 7:32 PM “Bush’s scandalous Guard service by distracting them with the canard that those incriminating documents revealed by CBS were fakes—or rather, that one of them might not have been authentic.”
Yeah, just because they were forgeries, doesn’t mean they were not true!
It is time for the truth. The American people can handle it! Aliens from area 51 have stolen the election. Bush is really a clone! Let the revolt begin!!!
LMAO!!!!
Posted by howFunny on Nov 16, 2004 at 7:36 PM Mark, its me, Kim. I really like you and want you to get back on your meds. Please Mark, you can be the man you used to be. It has been a hard year, but just have some faith and go back to see your doctor. He has the meds you need to recapture your bearings and be able to discern reality from fantasy. If you won’t do it for yourself, please please do it for me.
Love, Kim.
Posted by kim on Nov 16, 2004 at 7:40 PM Everything you say is true. A Jeffersonian Democracy is not based on blind trust in government and certainly not in private corporations with ties exclusively to one party. It is based on openness and transparency which fosters trust.
There is just no good reason why the government should not be able to prove to us that people’s votes were counted and counted accurately. The fact that they refuse to do so means people have no faith in the Democratic process. Without faith that your vote actually counts the way its supposed to, why vote? Which is exactly what the Republicans want us to think. If we don’t find a way to fix this situation (whether or not there was any actual machine fraud, which is entirely possible) we are so screwed.
Posted by Abe on Nov 16, 2004 at 8:38 PM Don’t worry. Relax. Just take this little pill…it’ll help you sleep.
We’re gonna put this little thing right under your skin. When you wake up…you’ll see…everything will be OK. You’ll feel great.
All your worries will be gone. Then you can go off..buy yourself a nice present…maybe buy some other things that you’ve longed for.
God is great, and our LEADER is his messenger. From him all the greatest of our nation flows.
Be calm…be good.
Posted by Liberal AND Proud on Nov 16, 2004 at 9:43 PM I don’t that there was any hanky -panky with the election. And i know you are gonna say oh no redstate again but wait. Do you in your wildest dreams think Rove or any Repub would be STUPID enough to tamper with the ballots. Could you imagine how much fuel it would give the Keeryites?? Not to mention jail fines and possibly discount the presidential win. I really think this is tin foil hat stuff. I know you are not happy with the results of the election but come on. As to Kerry being the hero and the Swift boaters lying why won’t Kerry release HIS military records not to out tin foil hat ya’ll but there are rumors that because of his Jane Fonda tactics at the end of ‘Nam he got a dishonorable in which case he would not be able to serve as senator.. Let the games begin…
Posted by redstate on Nov 16, 2004 at 9:58 PM Kerry’s official military records are linked right here: http://www.johnkerry.com/about/john_kerry/service.html
for all to see.Now where are resident Bush’s records? ‘Cos you know there’s a rumor that he ditched his service in the rich-boy’s club at the TANG after refusing to take a drug-test.
The reason people think there may be a fraud is because it would be easy to cover up-the GOP majority made the rules that way. Also, Bush and company have gotten away with plenty already. As Bill Bennett once said “Where is the outrage?”
Posted by Abe on Nov 16, 2004 at 10:07 PM ” Do you in your wildest dreams think Rove or any Repub would be STUPID enough to tamper with the ballots. Could you imagine how much fuel it would give the Keeryites?? Not to mention jail fines and possibly discount the presidential win. I really think this is tin foil hat stuff.”
- Redstate
And there in lies the problem. Your and others inability to even CONTEMPLATE that the powerful and influential 1) are capable of such an act and b) that they wouldn’t actually DO IT if there were a high enuf probability of pulling it off, is what is scarey.
The operative word in BLIND FAITH…is BLIND.
Posted by Liberal AND Proud on Nov 16, 2004 at 10:13 PM The Freepers must’ve been pointed at this article.
The argument that the Fla. panhandle has voted Republican in the last 30 years even though they are mostly registered Democrats has been used as a proxy to discredit every other case of voter fraud that has been brought up.
Redstate, Republicans did tamper with ballots. Your comment about jail fines and discounting the presidential win assumes that they wouldn’t get away with it. By now they are comfortable with and getting used to getting away with everything, with the help of a compliant media and surrogates like you who scream about vote fraud being “tin foil hat stuff” and telling people to “get back on their meds” without addressing any of the documented irregularities. How many of the incidents discussed in these articles can you discount, downplay, ignore, deny and forget before you will admit there was something fishy?
http://stolenelection2004.com/Are you one of the majority of Americans who still believes the US found WMD in Iraq or that Saddam was behind 9/11? It’s easy to fool some of the people all of the time. The Republicans have mastered it.
Posted by ScottinCali on Nov 16, 2004 at 10:34 PM Lib but proud do you agree that that which you say above can be as true for the Dems as it is for the Repubs?? Do YOU believe everything coming out of government left or right?
Posted by redstate on Nov 16, 2004 at 10:34 PM If it walks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck…
This is EXACTLY the same thing that happened with the fabricated energy crisis which affected California. At that time, all the Republicans that I know were smug about California being in that predicament. “They deserve it”, “California, the land of fruit and nuts”, “It’s that Gray Davis”, etc.
Many liberals I spoke with new instinctively that there was more to the story, i.e. a duck. You Republicans are obviously entitled to troll.. er, I mean post an opinion. But if you ask me, something is fishy in Denmark.
Posted by BlueDog on Nov 16, 2004 at 10:53 PM I am sorry at my lack of knowledge on the California power debacle but. I don’t think that anybody deserves a power crisis no matter their political leanings. From what little I know davis was a big spender. I lived in california for a while and thought to myself with all this sun and wind and sea they have to rely on hydro& nuke power??? I am trying to disatnce myself from being labeled a repulican thank you. I hate beaurocracy weather it’s red or blue. I have more libertarian leanings with a smattering of conservative views and think we should use what land we have with wisdom. I Don’t think old growth redwoods should be cut. i do think we can obtain the oil without trashing the land. My thought is how about the oil companies being able to drill for oil with the stipulation that they have to hire some earth firsters as enviormental monitors. I think we can without being such absolutists come to some form of consensus for us to be one country again.But what the hell do i know?
Posted by redstate on Nov 16, 2004 at 11:13 PM Before we can be one country again, first we need to get the crook out of the White House that MORE than half the country does not support. Once there’s a president in there that EVERYBODY can agree fairly earned the job, then maybe the country will start to be less divided.
Posted by Edgar Frog on Nov 16, 2004 at 11:23 PM And I say MORE than half the country…....Although it may not have been MORE than half of the votes counted.
Posted by Edgar Frog on Nov 16, 2004 at 11:24 PM redstate,
nixon and his cronies broke into hotel rooms. Ya think they would have known better than try something.
When people are in power,many think themselves omnipotent, especially if they think they have a mandate from God, as dubya and many of his supporters have stated. People do strange things for power and in the name of God.
Steal an election…for God..sure!
Posted by Robin on Nov 16, 2004 at 11:27 PM No you are right about Nixon he was a cheese ball. Nixon happened when I was in high scholl and it was the start of my interest in politics from a layman’s view. I think all this Bush bashing about his religion ain’t cool. Look I don’t think this election was stolen any more than I think Hillary Clinton killed vince foster.If it was proven that Rove-Bush orchestrated a “rigging” of the election then I say off with their heads but I just do not see it and it is not because i lean more right than left.I hope we can get our shit together as a country. We had 8 yrs of clinton now we got 8 yrs of bush. We need to get politics on a local level and more user friendly. i think ideas like ecotopia and southern state soverignity need to be explored. These are the problems of big government- loss of control on both sides
Posted by redstate on Nov 16, 2004 at 11:43 PM redstate-The whole point (at least for me and most people I know) is: how do you know there was no fraud? On the paperless computer systems which counted approximately 36 million votes (and which are built by private companies with very close ties to one party) there is no way of knowing if the results are accurate. Even if its just computer malfunction (numerous examples of which have already been found, always benefiting Republicans) we cannot find out except in the most obvious cases.
Posted by Abe on Nov 17, 2004 at 12:15 AM well conversely how do you know there was. the point I am making in part is I am registered democrat (surprise) but I don’t usually vote democratic. I guess there is a possibility of fraud but how do you find out. speculation isn’t enough. like I said if there was vote tampering then no matter who you or I am for there needs to be consequences. Maybe if you can find someone non partisan enough to investigate. How do we have a voting system free of meddling?
Posted by redstate on Nov 17, 2004 at 12:30 AM How do I prove there was fraud? The burden of proof should not be on me or any other voter. Elections should be open and transparent so there is no opportunity for meddling. The way it has been set up by the Republicans in control of Washington and several states (notably Ohio and Florida) we cannot find out one way or the other. The machines are “proprietary technology” so no one is allowed to examine them. They leave no paper trail even though Democrats in Congress have spent the last two years trying to require one-with opposition from Republicans. They have been proven to make mistakes and are easily hacked. People are investigating it. We’ll see if they find anything.
Posted by Abe on Nov 17, 2004 at 1:01 AM forgive my ignorance - proprietary technology? you mean there is no way of checking these machines? That does not seem right. i was unaware of efforts by repubs to inhibit verifying accuracy. I don’t understand how they can be “hacked” are they hooked up to the internet? I hope I am right about this for nothing else but insuring integrity in the voting proccess. if there was tampering or misuse of the machines heads SHOULD roll but I still respectfully think it is a stretch. the risk seems to outweight he gains because if proven true it would seem to negate the whole election.
Posted by redstate on Nov 17, 2004 at 1:23 AM redstate,
You are wrong. Your ignorance can be forgiven if you’re willing to look at what is really going on. Please inform yourself by visiting http://www.BlackBoxVoting.org. Don’t expect the mainstream media to make it available. You might want to look for a video about Noam Chomsky called Manufactured Consent, or read some of his books.
Posted by Vicki on Nov 17, 2004 at 3:08 AM I scanned thru the site you hyperlinked and it is pretty wild. I find it incredulous that voting machines would be on an open windows connection that was mentioned. Why are these systems “open” and not more along the lines of an intranet? I also find it amazing that the “logs” can be screwed around with. i find it - I don’t even know how to say it—stupefying that these systems - our voting which is supposed to be almost “sacred” is allowed to be in a system that is so easily manipulated. I ahve heard about Chomsky a linguistic professor from VT Goddard i think?? I’ll check him out - I am sure there is much on the net about him as i think he is a prolific writer. Like I said if there was tampering of any amount it would put the whole system the whole election in doubt regardless of who won and who lost it would be a 9.5 on the richter scale of stupidity and illegality.
Posted by redstate on Nov 17, 2004 at 3:31 AM See this is the problem. The media doesn’t report on these issues and people don’t take the time to educate themselves. I personally went with a large group of people to petition the Texas State Leg. about electronic voting machines and scanners. BlackBoxVoting is an excellent site!
Did you know Diebold and another electronic voting machine/scanner company are owned by two prominently Republican brothers, ok no reason to really get paranoid there. Between the 2 companies they count almost 80% of the votes in the country. Other than that there are over 100 other companies, some of which aren’t even owned by US citizens. The man who wrote the program for the vote tabulating calculator and over saw the project was already a convicted felon when he was hired to the job. What was he a felon of you ask? COMPUTER FRAUD! People who worked on the project found back ways to hack in and a second tabulator.
Read up on this stuff and it’s truly frightening.
Posted by CrashGrab on Nov 17, 2004 at 3:32 AM redstate,
I predict you’ll become more stupefied the more you learn. Don’t forget to inform your friends and family.
Chomsky is a linguistics professor at MIT. You might start at http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/intro.cfm or http://www.chomsky.info. The script of Manufactured Consent is at http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/mc/index.cfm.
Posted by Vicki on Nov 17, 2004 at 3:59 AM I have read, summarily some of the things mentioned and I find it; still incredulous that diebold with it’s republican connections would be stupid enough- ballsy stupid to tamper with a system that is so close to the vest so to speak. i hope you are wrong. I like to believe in at least something of “the system” is honest. if it is true it would surpass Watergate in it’s scope.
i read some Chomsky- intersting at 48 i finally got around to searching his writings- and his critics.
I find his basic premise of what he calls Libertarian socialims kinda - well weird comes to mind almost like the phrase communist capitalism. it seems to be two diametrically opposed value sysytems on the surface. i will read deeper. I do see him as part if not co-founder of the “blame america first"crowd . i am not in a position to judge that ideology. i absolutely abhor his fondness of the Pol Pot atrocity machine in Cambodia. i know he brings up america’s less than honorable and cruel manipulations in other parts of the world. Boy am I gonna have bad dreams tonight! I know the world is in a lot of places brutal and cruel. i have seen some of it firsthand myself and dismay at the way it is. I guess sometimes you have to chose (sadly) the lesser of two or more evils.
Posted by redstate on Nov 17, 2004 at 4:05 AM If Mr. Millers assertions were true he’d be scribbling his comments on scraps of toilet paper in a gulag somewhere instead of from a cushy tenured seat at NYU.
Mr. Miller and his followers are just the lefts version of Jerry Falwell and Oral Roberts on the right. Fruitcakes and wackos every one.
Posted by Naldo on Nov 17, 2004 at 5:03 AM redstate,
The “blame america first” crowd is a label that right-wing extremists tagged on liberals to demonize and marginalize them. You bought their propaganda. You aren’t alone (alas).
I am not aware of anything that Chomsky wrote that could be construed as a “fondness of the Pol Pot atrocity machine in Cambodia”. The points I have seen him raise is that U.S. activities in Cambodia contributed to Pol Pot’s rise in power, and that Pol Pot was a monster.
I believe that Americans are responsible for the actions of our government. When we vote in ignorance, we are as culpable as it is. And we darn sure pay the price. We owe it to ourselves and everything we hold dear to see past the propaganda. And the propaganda of the day is that the electronic voting machines worked pretty well. It’s a ruse. And if Americans buy it, we’re doomed.
Posted by Vicki on Nov 17, 2004 at 5:32 AM The point of the vote by computer with no receipt strategy is to cloud the outcome, not to just make all the votes for Bush. If you can’t verify the votes, and can only recount a tampered spreadsheet tally, then it’s all over.
In addition, there are boxes of ballots showing up in Ohio, Florida, and New Mexico that were locked in offices and never counted. North Carolina is rerunning their state election but not the federal election. How many other states could have been manipulated in plausibly deniable ways by corrupt officials? Just because LBJ/JFK may have benefitted from it doesn’t make it right.
The new question is what are we going to do about Bush, DeLay the French Texican, and whatever gang of Ivy League jagoff monopolists they bring in? Can we save what we think of as America or are we Argentina with the potential for a less-captivating musical? America-Fuck Yeah!
Posted by Bigfoot on Nov 17, 2004 at 6:41 AM yeah, redstate.. i think you have a misunderstanding of Chomsky’s point.. dig further - and definitely check out Manufacturing Consent at the link Vicki provided.
as for “blame America first” - the true nature of America is that the masses are kept mostly in the dark. the major media handles this job pretty well and i wouldn’t believe it unless i saw it with my own eyes during the build up to the Iraq war.
Americans are good people, that’s why they had to be misled into supporting the war.
The risks of bringing war to Iraq greatly outweigh the benefit of removing Saddam Hussein from power.. this was never a point brought up and the media did their duty in avoiding it.
Posted by jimbo on Nov 17, 2004 at 6:55 AM instead of just talking back and forth, why don’t some of you write letters to the media, call the voting and secretary of state offices in florida, ohia, new mexico and new hampshire. Call the democratic party and demand that more investigations take place. Evidence is popping up all over the place, but the contry needs all of its citizens to take a stand and ask questions and inquire about the voter fraud that occurred. It is a real and present danger and it will only get worse if people do not take the time to make your voice heard. Call your state senate leaders, email newspapers telling them to cover this important issue.
Posted by dolfin on Nov 17, 2004 at 7:40 AM Hey redstate, I am part of the blame America first crowd! That’s blame America first for the things America does. We have no control over Bin Laden or the Chinese or the Russians, but we have, supposedly anyway, some control over our own leaders. Up until now that is. When people like you use the phrase ‘blame America first’ you are basically implying that the rightwing is ‘America’. People in general are not blaming each other, they do not blame ‘Americans’, they blame the right wing establishment, the money and the power. That’s what Chomsky is about. The right wing owns the media, and now completely controls the government. The right wing are not in any way, shape or form, the same as ‘America’, but they often act in America’s name and as you so perfectly demonstrated now genuinely believe that an attack on them is the same as an attack on the very idea of America. If you are looking for delluded fantasies, there’s one right there.
No one is blaming America. We blame George W. Bush and his supporters. They are not ‘America’. They represent greed, arrogance, dishonesty, and death. They don’t care about America, they don’t even care about their own children. Otherwise they wouldn’t be allowing a planned relaxation of regulations that would prevent polluters from pretty much doing what they like. They would not have run up an immoral deficit, designed to do nothing except eventually bankrupt medicare and social security. They love big government, they just hate social programs, anything that helps less fortunate Americans get onto their feet.
And as for calling yourself ‘redstate’, lets talk about so called red state morality. The divorce rate in the red states is on average higher than in the blue states. So the religious right believes gay marrage for instance to be an attack on the very institution, and yet they have less respect for marrage, on average, than democrats.
Also, how can anyone who calls themselves ‘pro-life’ support the illigal and vicious invasion of another sovereign nation. At least seventeen thousand Iraq civillians now lie dead because of this Bush administration. Do you get it? That’s people’s brothers, sisters, mothers, and fathers, in early graves. That’s over five world trade center attacks. Do you understand? These are real people, not lesser human beings because they weren’t born in America. Iraq posed no threat, none what so ever, but they had oil. That’s like red rag to a bull to these cold blooded, ‘neo-cons’. If you don’t believe me, do your own research, but have an open mind. Open to being wrong that is.
Posted by Matilda on Nov 17, 2004 at 11:53 AM I have a problem with authority in general and with government in particular.
But…I’ve always looked at the BIG PICTURE.
On a macro level, I cannot tolerate the hypocrisy of the right that spews religion yet doesn’t promote policies in line with those views…care of the poor, etc. Also, conservatives scream that government should BUTT OUT OF THEIR LIVES, yet they see no problem legislating my bedroom.
Are there liberal extremists…ABSOLUTELY. Political Correctedness may possibly be the STUPIDEST concept ever created.
BUT…on a macro level…look at the inherent GOOD of Democratic policies…in particular the New Deal.
Now…can government on either side OVERREACH…absolutely.
But, that is why we have REPRESENTATIVE government based on COMPROMISE. It is why we allow the MINORITY to have an EQUAL VOTE in this country.
Posted by Liberal AND Proud on Nov 17, 2004 at 1:18 PM Matilda,
Of course they care about THEY’RE children…how many people in government have THEIR kids in battle, or even been in battle THEMSELVES.
I may not agree with conservatives like Bob Dole, but at least they have PERSPECTIVE. At least they put THEIR OWN HEINIES on the line. This is why I’m SO DISAPPOINTED in someone like John McCain. Where is HIS VOICE…and I mean his REAL VOICE…not his “Party” voice…on this war?
Where was HE when this administration had THE GALL to question ANYONE’S medals? ALL veterans should have risen up against the mudslinging, because it of what it implied. It made it sound like now even MEDALS OF VALOR are politically motivated, it diminished the medals of EVERY VETERAN.
THAT is the root of my anger. It goes beyond even the reason of simple “fair play”. The ultra right wing of this nation are the people that are “against America”. Because they know NO BOUNDARY in their bloodlust to advance their own agenda.
Posted by Liberal AND Proud on Nov 17, 2004 at 1:34 PM liberal but proud I know we sparred and rudely on other forums and I am sorry for that-truly. I was elateded to hear you say the phrase” liberal extremist” now we have some common ground. My dilemma is HOW?? how do we in this country come to really respect each others rights. How do we get the feminists in cities to support the second ammendment?? How do we get the rednecks and redstate conservatives to get thier noses outta your bedroom?? Although I am not prone to conspiracy theories I think this crap about “right” &” left” is being used to divide and conquer America. But who benefits?. Is this all engineered to keep the wheels spinning in the mud while the foxes raid the henhouse?? Anyway sorry for being a rude ass in other venues .
Posted by redstate on Nov 17, 2004 at 2:01 PM Of course it is.
Who benefits? The powerful. Period. On both sides.
My problem is that the country has become so mesmerized by extremists, that people have become blind to what is important to THEM. And I don’t mean with regard to so-called values like religion. Religious protection is guaranteed by the Constitution. “God” doesn’t mean MY God, or YOUR GOD, or “their” “God”. It means belief in a higher power, whether it’s Yahweh, Allah, Christ, whatever.
For example, Bill O’Reilly was trying to claim that separating “God” from the Boy Scouts was going to undermine the fabric of the nation. What NONSENSE. And he was trying to justify his argument by saying that “GOD” could mean “nature”, trees. This is the kind of covert, anti-intellectual BULLSHIT that really is DANGEROUS. There is a hidden AGENDA there.
But I digress. Back to the things that are important to ALL OF US.
Economic interest…THAT is what binds the vast majority of this country. And what the powers that be are trying to distort to their advantage. Here’s a newsflash…the vast majority of this nation does NOT make over $200K…or even $100K.
But the millionaires have convinced the poor saps in the mid-west and elsewhere that make $25K-$85K a year that someone THEIR interests are tied to the people making over $200K. And they do it by wrapping that argument in the flag, by generating anger between and separation between people making $55K and those making $35K, and with TOTALLY DISCREDITED economic BALDERDASH like “trickle down” economics.
Look at the facts…the minimum wage hasn’t been raised in a decade or more…, overall wages have been stagnant for 20 years, the 40 hour workweek is DEAD…healthcare is unaffordable by many…but giving back $800 dollars to the middle class…but THOUSANDS of dollars back to people that don’t need it, will make all these problems simply disappear. Then we start a FAKE war, against people that had NOTHING TO DO WITH THE ATTACK ON THIS COUNTRY, all in the interest of gaining control of THEIR natural resource.
It’s time for the COUNTRY to wake up.
Posted by Liberal AND Proud on Nov 17, 2004 at 2:28 PM Reading these comments shows me just how ignorant and lazy Americans are when it comes to their vote.
The denial in this country, and the belief that votes actually counts (see www.votescam.com) is amazing.
Now the votes are stolen out in the open through voting machines (why not just send your vote telepathically folks?), dirty tricks, and total media complicity.
If they wanted us to vote, they’d give us candidates. Remember, WE the people have never elected a president. It’s the Electoral College (or in 2000 the Supreme Court) that picks THEIR president.
Mark’s article is excellent, but falls on the deaf, dumb and blind of America waving their “made in China” flags while not participating in their own “democracy” save for a vote every 4 yrs that means diddly squat.
Posted by Meria on Nov 17, 2004 at 3:38 PM “We blame George W. Bush and his supporters. They are not ‘America’. They represent greed, arrogance, dishonesty, and death. They don’t care about America, they don’t even care about their own children. “
This is why drugs are illegal! Matilda here makes wild assertions - nothing wrong with that! This is America after all. But to believe such utter crap is like believing “negros are lazy and shifty”. It is both stupid and incredibly foolish.
Posted by thisIsWhy on Nov 17, 2004 at 3:40 PM Bravo Mark!
NO SURRENDER!
That said, “We the People” have to take some of the blame for willingly voting on machinery we KNEW was owned and operated by the wingnut GOP suits - machinery we ALSO knew was “hackable” and provided no easy audit trail.
...and where were/is the Democratic “loyal opposition” on this issue? Busily confirming my worst suspicions that they are complicit in the coup that was completed on November 2, 2004. “Spineless” is now a complimentary way to describe their non-actions and timidly whispered objections. (Someone please explain to me how ANY Democrat could have voted to confirm Goss - who has already begun to purge the CIA of anyone who dares to question BIG BROTHER?).
If the theft had gone the other way - and I’m mindful Democrats don’t have a clean history on election theft, there would be blood on the moon until the Republicans got what they wanted in terms of accountability and recounts, etc.
So, as long as we are passing out blame, let’s not forget to include WE THE PEOPLE, and the Democratic NON-leadership.
THAT SAID, the totally so-called free press in America have betrayed U.S. with their purposeful, well-orchestrated, and systematic purging of any truth which does not benefit THEIR bottom line.
We in America ARE responsible AND accountable for the policies enacted in OUR names and paid for with OUR tax dollars. Speak out now, or forever hold your peace…
Posted by Sirpercy on Nov 17, 2004 at 3:40 PM Mark,
Why are there not more of you!? People of this country refuse to look at the truth let alone point it out. Thank you for doing whats right and writing such great articles!
Posted by Laura Reichenbach on Nov 17, 2004 at 3:54 PM Redstate what LAP is saying makes a whole lot of sense.
You want to get the powers that be to focus on you and me. First rule should be that all campaign contributions are banned. The taxpayers should pay for both campaigns. Lets say 100M for both parties and that’s that. No more lobbying of big money and interests.
Government is addressing the issues that you and I have by getting the support of the rich folk who give them the cash. Who’s interests are being addressed? Of course you are at war with the left. That’s how they want it. And if the left think that Kerry would have made a difference you are wrong. Any leader would fail. Who do you want on your back. Half the country who voted against you, or big corporations and the media. Your vote does not count regardless.
Revolution is soul cleansing. Maybe it is time to whip the media and government back into shape. Remind them that they are there to serve us and not the other way around.
Start by reminding yourself that the little people have a whole lot more in common regardless of party. This is not about you and me. Its about making sure you and me are so busy fighting we have not time to think let alone approach our government tactically.They have got us by the nose ring and they are taking us to the slaughterhouse!
Posted by Watson on Nov 17, 2004 at 4:07 PM This article is very good! The case is even better!
This fraud thing is really hitting Europe now. Wether or not it will be possible to do something about it from here to help it break into the public space, remains to see.
Bush/Rove is lying bigger than ever, and the Repubs has raised the stakes for any one daring to bring the question to the market, to enormous proportions, making it a dare to front it from an official position.
But if the pounding continues, the good forces like you stick to it, and new outlets and ingenious methods are used to find ways of bringing it to increasing groups of Americans, well - the case is much stronger than in 2000 and the evidence keeps piling up…
You freepers: Are you for real? ;-)
Do me a favor - read a history book, look at the b/w pictures and understand what you’re partaking in.
Posted by mogster on Nov 17, 2004 at 4:22 PM Look Kook,
You lost…Get over it! It’s the Democrats with a history of stealing elections and voter fraud, not the Republicans. It’s YOUR base that is homeless, pennyless and brainless, and therefore easy to bribe.
You clowns need to stop listening to Randi Rhodes and the rest of the screetching harpies. Bush is polular, Bush won!
Now…Just lay back and enjoy it…It will hurt less!
LOL! IN YOUR FACE!!
Posted by Non DUhhh KOOK! on Nov 17, 2004 at 4:26 PM The Republicans are all too happy to come up with false fraud accusations as soon as it is possible that a recount may uncover what proves to be a loss for them.
It looks to me like they want to cloud/dilute the fraud issue.
As in the Baron Hill Recount of the 9th District in Indiana. (It was found that votes for a straight Democratic ticket were going to the Libertarian candidate in Franklin County).
“Sodrel raised another concern Tuesday, saying a “substantial number” of ineligible voters may have cast ballots in Monroe County, and that it could be impossible to determine who received the most votes here.
Sodrel’s campaign manager, Kevin Boehnlein, said the return of approximately 4,000 political mailing cards could indicate possible voter fraud, a claim Monroe County Democratic Party Chairman Dan Combs rejected late Tuesday.
“This is malarkey,” he said. “What they’re trying to do is cut into the Monroe County margin in case more massive voter machine errors are discovered throughout the district.”
http://www.heraldtimesonline.com/stories/2004/11/17/news.JLR20999.sto?lin (Subscription required)
Posted by Margaret on Nov 17, 2004 at 4:27 PM Mark,
We’re depleted. We’re exhausted. We’re getting so used to being powerless that it’s becoming impossible to even conceive of mounting an effective challenge to the powerful. There’s just so much to do—ideologically, organizationally, legally, legislatively, and politically—that the idea of fighting election fraud makes me sick with hopelessness. It’s a fight I don’t think we can win, much less inspire our brothers and sisters to engage in. It’s not that I doubt a word of what you’ve said and it’s not that I want them to get away with it. But they can and they did. What’s our next move? Where should we focus ourselves? How to win the hearts and minds of the American majority who DON’T WANT BUSH!?
In deepest solidarity,
Peggy Crane, Copenhagen by way of New York
Posted by Peggy Crane on Nov 17, 2004 at 4:44 PM I’ve read all of the above comments, and I have a few reactions. First of all, I’d like someone to give me some specifics concerning “extreme liberalism,” “political correctness,” and “feminists who don’t understand or support the second ammendment.” I believe there is a great misunderstanding of what “liberal” means. It most certainly does not mean “tax and spend” or “love Communism” or “in favor of big government” or “anti-American” or any number of other right-wing definitions. It actually means “tolerant,” “progressive,” “broadminded,” “unprejudiced,” “advanced,” and “honorable.” These are only a few of the definitions given by that most-liberal organization Microsoft in the Word thesaurus. I found no negative definitions for the word “liberal.” I suppose it would be possible to be too tolerant - of war or poverty or cruelty - but somehow, I don’t think that’s what RedState was referring to. We liberals (correct me if I am wrong here, fellow Liberals and Progressives) believe in a living wage for anyone who works full time at any job, equality of opportunity (and don’t get me started on affirmative action - the only time the conservatives get all up in arms about affirmative action and special treatment is when it applies to women and minorities; they mostly have no problem with affirmative action when it applies to rich kids getting into Yale because their daddies went there), progressive taxes that don’t put a larger percentage burden on the poor (as sales taxes do), tolerance for differing religious views, separation of church and state, government regulation of corporate power and abuses, and keeping the government out of our personal lives. Any specific samples of extremism would be welcome now.
As for “political correctness,” I do believe that this was originally a method of ensuring that tolerance was socially acceptable and prejudice was not. For example, it should (although it’s not) be “politically incorrect” to refer to football players as “ladies” when exhorting them to try harder. Or for Ahnold to talk about “girlie men” as a disparagement. In fact, what has happened is that whatever the political climate encourages becomes politically correct or incorrect. A good example is that, as an agnostic, it is politically incorrect for me to discuss fervently my lack of specific belief in an omnipotent, omniscient Christian-like God at work, while it’s just great for the Christians to discuss most fervently their deeply held beliefs. If I put a “Militant Agnostice. I don’t know and you don’t either” bumper sticker on my car, it would be considered in very poor taste, and people would be highly offended here in West-By-God-Virginia. Ergo, politically incorrect. But one of my co-workers has a “One Nation Under God” sticker on his, and that’s admired. Politically correct in one environment is indefensible in another.
And, finally, please, please, please explain to me what is meant by feminists who don’t support the second ammendment. I certainly believe in the right to own a gun. I just don’t believe in the right to own automatic or semiautomatic guns that can only be used to kill lots of people. I believe in limits. Our forefathers did not have that in mind. I also believe that lots and lots of second ammendment supporters haven’t really read the language. It’s about militias among other things.
Any reasonable, well written responses to this are most welcome.
Posted by LeeAnn Gallucci on Nov 17, 2004 at 4:47 PM Oops - one last thought! It’s amazing how anyone could think there was anything Karl Rove and Co. would not do to win power. There are so many instances of the Bushite’s abuses, there’s not enough room in this venue to list them all. Here are just a few: the whisper campaigns and lies about Ann Richards, John McCain, Max Cleland; mailings with banned Bibles threatened if Kerry got elected; the blatant lies and inuendos about WMD, ties to al Qaida, and collaboration between the secular Saddam and religious nut Bin Laden; the special treatment of the Saudi nationals right after 9/11 in spite of the fact that 17 of the 19 hijackers were Saudi; Haliburton; the jerrymandering and redistricting in Texas…
‘Nuff said. They are capable of anything and their believe in their immunity is incredible - probably due to past experience.
Posted by LeeAnn Gallucci on Nov 17, 2004 at 4:54 PM Peggy,
We’re depleted, we’re exhausted.
THAT is what “they” want. They feel that the war of attrition is on “their” side.
Depleted is not acceptable! :)
Posted by Liberal AND Proud on Nov 17, 2004 at 5:22 PM As a liberal who always thought he was a little left of center, but by today’s definition I am probably considered a Commie Pinko Fag, I’d like to at least offer my view of extreme liberalism.
The one I like the most is Political Correctness. What exactly was the goal here? Blur the lines between men and women? Why can’t we be equal AND still be men and women? Why do we have to be PERSONS? And if we get into this whole discussion about “paternalistic society” and “historic male oppression of women”...my answer is PULEEEZE…get over it. The solution is not to undermine the differences in the sexes simply because of inherited, rightly or wrong, and outdated mores. Because, by doing that you end up looking like your against motherhood, apple pie and the Bible. THAT’S why we LOST THE ELECTION!
You want to raise the issue of women’s rights. GREAT. I’m all for it. You want to raise issues about disparities in the workplace. GREAT. I’m all for that too. But when you allow the extreme views of the oft talked about femi-nazis to usurp your cause, and use it in blatantly open attacks against men and MANHOOD. Well, that’s when your losing me…and SURPRISE…the majority of the REST of the country.
That’s just one example.
Posted by Liberal AND Proud on Nov 17, 2004 at 5:29 PM OK - in an answer to Liberal AND Proud - political correctness is most certainly not an exclusively feminist issue. It’s at least partly about making it socially distasteful to use words and phrases to oppress or denigrate. The “goal here” was to attempt to breed tolerance, equality, and inclusiveness by eliminating the cultural acceptance of negative language. It’s not about blurring the differences, it’s about respecting people regardless of gender. Which is absolutely not the case in large swaths of our society. Our government has very little concern for the plight of women all over the Arab world. It makes no difference to the (mostly men) in power in the US that the Saudi government oppresses women, and it’s generally the stance of our government that we “don’t interfere with other countries’ social agendas” when it comes to women.
Words are powerful. The reason for “person” as opposed to “man” is that our language assumed - and still largely does in spite of the efforts of political correctness - that all human beings are male. We had policeMEN, fireMEN, councilMEN, and many other examples. When referring to groups or non-specific genders, English always used the pronoun “he” or “him” or “his.” (Ex. Does everyone have HIS book?) Unless, of course, the speaker or writer used the grammatically incorrect “they” or “their” or “them.” (As in: Does everyone have THEIR book?)
It’s been discovered in many studies that even the most enlightened teachers still pay more attention to the boys in their classes than to girls. Take note when reading to your children or showing them pictures of animals; the assumption is almost always that any creature not identified as to gender is male. Even when talking about spiders in their webs, which are quite likely to be female, most people refer to the spider as “he.” I found it amusing that when certain writers and speakers decided to refer to babies as “she,” even interchangeably with “he,” lots of men got really bent out of shape and asked querilously, “why do they assume the child is a girl?” It is still, as I mentioned in my earier comments, socially acceptable to call boys by female names as an insult. “Sissy” is a derogatory term much more than “tomboy.” A boy who “runs like a girl” is being mocked. A girl who “throws a ball like a boy” is being complimented. Giving a girl a traditionally male name like Alex is a lot more acceptable than giving a boy a name that even sounds feminine, like Stacy. I have a relative who gets apoplectic when you call his male child Nicky because it sounds too girlie. Political correctness was supposed to make this kind of thing “quaint and obsolete.” It didn’t work partly because so many men were so threatened by the whole thing. (And due to other factors too complex to attempt to discuss here.)
So, I still have no concrete examples of Liberal Extremism. Saying “OK, how about political correctness” isn’t specific. It’s flouting an overused term with no real meaning to launch a diatribe against feminism. Women make considerably less for doing the same job as men, they represent fewer political constituents, the language still works against them. It’s still “politically correct” in most circles to talk about who wears the pants in the family. And anyone who believes that it’s just words or that labels don’t matter should talk to the great majority of men who really get themselves into a lather about even the vestige of an idea that their wives might want to keep their names when they get married. (An ugly little cultural tradition if there ever was one - taking the name of your lord and master, just as the slaves had to.)
My answer to those who decry political correctness as misguided feminist extremism is PULLEEEEZZZZ get over it! Sorry, but we really do still have a paternalistic society with oppression of women. A quick look at the current political environment should tell you that. Machismo is on the rise big time.
Women who work toward equal rights are not “feminazis who hate men.” (I am married to a wonderful, awesome treasure of a man who didn’t think it was necessary for me to change my name to prove I love him.) Even some men who believe in equal rights for gays, minority ethnic groups, and diverse religious members still think there’s something wrong with women’s efforts to establish equality. Equality doesn’t begin or end with language, but there’s a reason why “nigger” is a nasty word that horrifies people when it’s used in public.
Any really, truly specific examples of liberal extremism out there? (Other than my deep-seated belief that all people have a right to their own names even if they happen to be female and marrying a male?)
Posted by LeeAnn Gallucci on Nov 17, 2004 at 6:31 PM That word that got #####d out was the “n” word, by the way. Blanked out as it truly should be, along with “girlie men.” See - my point exactly!
Posted by LeeAnn Gallucci on Nov 17, 2004 at 6:35 PM Well…anyone else want to dispute my point.
I think it’s been made.
Posted by Liberal AND Proud on Nov 17, 2004 at 6:43 PM LeeAnn…what is it with you?
Whining isn’t going to get you ANYWHERE.
The suffragettes didn’t WHINE. They acted. And they acted as a POLITICAL FORCE. They didn’t rail against marriage as “male slavery”, and other extreme views that have been expressed by “women” such as Andrea Dworkin and her coterie of extremist nutcases.
I believe in EQUAL RIGHTS…for ALL. I don’t look for quasi-intellectual arguments against “patriarchal” society, or even try to claim that it is based in NATURE simply because a man has a penis.
I simply see what is RIGHT and what is WRONG.
Your screeching and moaning and beating your breast, is exactly why you ladies are getting NOWHERE.
Posted by Liberal AND Proud on Nov 17, 2004 at 6:49 PM Nope. The reason women aren’t getting anywhere is guys like you.
Posted by LeeAnn Gallucci on Nov 17, 2004 at 6:55 PM Oh, yeah. And you still haven’t addressed any specifics.
Posted by LeeAnn Gallucci on Nov 17, 2004 at 6:56 PM And I didn’t take a position EITHER WAY.
The question was asked for an EXAMPLE.
I voiced an opinion.
Or are you also of the thought that any OPINION that doesn’t adhere to YOUR view of what the world should be is WRONG.
Posted by Liberal AND Proud on Nov 17, 2004 at 6:57 PM Sounds a whole lot like you are very, very, very threatened by this whole issue.
Posted by LeeAnn Gallucci on Nov 17, 2004 at 6:57 PM Well, your way off base.
I’ve supported the ERA, abortion rights, equal pay and a whole host of women’s issues.
You want to keep your name…fine. That is HARDLY a political statement in my book…but if it makes you happy.
Here’s a good read. Although it deals with pornography and women..I think she makes some good points regarding extreme feminism.
http://www.zetetics.com/xxx/index.html
Posted by Liberal BUT Proud on Nov 17, 2004 at 7:05 PM I had a different point I was going to make, but first I want to throw in my 2 cents on Political Correctness. Although, possibly, well intentioned, it doesn’t fix the problem and only creates more. People should be free to say what they want. It’s only words. They can’t hurt. The listener and person being offended is the person with the problem. If someone hears the word “run” do they get offended? No, because it’s only a word, as are all WORDS. It’s the intent behind the words that is offensive to some, but you’re just giving up power to people who are trying to take it from you when you get offended. They WANT you to be offended. Keep your power and stop being offended. It’s not helping you any.
The original point I wanted to make is about the Dems and our Electoral Process. Does anyone else find it curious (and VERY frustrating) that the DNC is doing so little to help fix this quite obviously very broken system? The only things I’ve heard in regards to the Dems being involved is they’ve sent some lawyers here and there that don’t appear to have put anything in motion. The “third” parties are the ones making a big push to look into this stuff. The parties that have much less power, WAY less funding and nothing politically to gain in this election. They WILL gain support from it and they should. The only explanation I’ve heard for this is that the Dems don’t feel it would turn the election around. Well F-YOU then. Just becuase you may not win from looking into this stuff, it’s not worth looking in to? If Kerry runs again in ‘08 (as has been rumored) I am definitely not voting for him a second time just so he can concede when the results are still cloudy at best. I want to vote for a candidate that is honestly interested in moving this country forward. I have no interest in throwing my support behind someone that’s only interested in winning and not how that the game is played fairly.
Posted by Losing Faith on Nov 17, 2004 at 7:07 PM I know…lets change manacled to personacled, mannequin to personequin, managed to personaged…opps…that one is taken, maniacal to personiacal.
Yeah…that’ll show ‘em. That’ll rally the country!
Posted by Liberal AND Proud on Nov 17, 2004 at 7:32 PM Ok, maybe some more on PC.
The words themselves are not the problem. It’s the actions. Socially banning words in NOT fixing the problem. The only power words have, is what people allow. Before there were words, did certain sounds offend? It’s only a voice making a sound. It has NO true affect other than what is allowed by the listener. As far as creating a less gender specific overtone in our language, I think it should be done because it makes more sense, not so it stops offending people. Political correctness is NOT going to correct the patriarchal society issues. If anything, it probably makes it worse. The words don’t really need fixin’. It’s the attitudes and those aren’t likely to change with the banning of words.
Posted by Losing Faith on Nov 17, 2004 at 7:34 PM A little off topic, but here’s a funny thought: Next election could very well be Hilary Clinton vs. Colin Powell.
What would the “american values voters” do?Choose between a woman or a black dude?
maybe that’s the only way to get Ralph Nader any votes…
“I may hate his policies, but at least he’s a white guy!”
ha!
Posted by neil on Nov 17, 2004 at 7:36 PM “Political correctness is NOT going to correct the patriarchal society issues. If anything, it probably makes it worse. The words don’t really need fixin’. It’s the attitudes and those aren’t likely to change with the banning of words”.
EXACTLY!
Focusing on words totally changes the dynamics of the discussion.
Posted by Liberal AND Proud on Nov 17, 2004 at 7:38 PM Hm. I was actually going to drop the subject. I thought I was answering actual questions like “why do we have to be PERSONS?” And I wanted to address the rant about getting over the idea of a patriarchal society oppressing women and the accusation that women who appear to be against motherhood and apple pie lost us the election. (And MY response was whining?) If LiberalANDProud was simply asking the question, it was couched in provacative terms. Which brings me to my point - that he was obviously provoked by my words. That was not my intention, but I certainly got a reaction!
Anyhow, anyone who believes words are not important or powerful should just name a little boy Nancy. Or, better yet, call some big macho guy’s son a sissy. Use the “F” or “N” word on national TV. Words reflect attitudes, they don’t create them; I will concede that point. But they do magnify attitudes and they do make people feel intimidated. Calling an adult man “Boy” is not acceptable, and it should not be. Negative words against women are among the few still acceptable in our society.
It’s not an accident that “the pen is mightier than the sword” is a common statement. The way in which essays are worded can sway many people to a cause or idea. The way in which our language is worded is a subconscious influence. Using non-gender specific language makes sense because it stops excluding half the population. The fact that someone would think that political correctness will not stop the patriarchal society, or even that it will make it worse simply magnifies my point. Is it OK for men to be offended by politically correct language, but not for women to be offended by traditional language that excludes or denigrates women? Adn if not, why do we cater to the male sensibilities?
I did a workshop on civil rights and women’s issues in the 60s in a local high school a couple of years ago. One of the topics I discussed was women’s changing their names when they got married. We talked about many other issues, but that was the one that got the boys the most riled. I have a friend who wanted very much to keep her name when she married, but her new husband and his family pressured her to change it. I know more that one man who is quite threatened by any woman’s decision to keep her name. But very few men in my acquaintance would be willing to change their name. I know one woman who told me she had a relative who did it, so I can’t say I never heard of it. But it’s surely rare. This is a political issue, as many social issues are.
I am not trying to change anyone else’s mind. I’m just giving my opinion. I believe words are extremely powerful, names are powerful, and how we use the language is indicative of our values as a society.
It’s easy to believe that someone who rants (as I have been accused of doing here) “only” talks and doesn’t act. That can only be said of me by someone who does not know me.
Posted by LeeAnn Gallucci on Nov 17, 2004 at 7:54 PM Not knowing one another is a two way street.
What I find distressing is that we’re on the same side. I’m not sure if you believe that, but be that as it may…my point primarily was the problem of exremism.
The people AGAINST us NEED and WANT us to be divided.
I’ve been around the block more times than I want to admit to. What I do know is that my passion runs very deep. The problem is that the sincerity of my convictions are not paid attention to, and turned against me, if I do not practice reason. I’ve had whole sections of my family not speaking with me throughout my life (moreso in my youth than now), because I believed I was right and they were wrong.
I may still believe that. LOL! But unless things are done moderately…no one is going to pay attention to you.
I don’t know if that’s wisdom, what I do know is it has proven to be the truth.
No person wants to be dragged kicking and screaming to another person’s point of view, and the fact is they will simply not allow themselves to be.
Posted by Liberal AND Proud on Nov 17, 2004 at 8:07 PM Boy, that second sentence came out WRONG.
I’m NOT distressed that we’re on the same side. LOL! I meant to say that I’m distressed that we’re on the same side and hissing at one another like to ornery alley cats.
Posted by Liberal AND Proud on Nov 17, 2004 at 8:10 PM What causes the tendency to take an idea past its logical conclusion into the territory of the absurd? Yes, I agree that all of these words - manacled, etc., began with the root “man.” However, they have evolved way past their roots and have become quite different from gender-biased language.
I keep thinking about the notion that words are just sounds and only have meaning to people n who allow themselves to be hurt by them. To bring this idea past its logical conclusion into the realm of the absurd, does this mean that it’s perfectly acceptable to go back to calling some people “n….s” or for Cheney to tell other members of the senate to go “F…” themselves? Is it a good idea to allow children to swear at their teachers? For those Bible believers out there, is taking the Lord’s name in vain just a matter of words that don’t matter? Society has controlled words through cultural acceptability for a long time. I am not a believer in censorship, but I am a believer in not being rude. Using offensive language to denigrate or exclude members of our society is rude.
Just words. OK.
Posted by LeeAnn Gallucci on Nov 17, 2004 at 8:11 PM And, finally: Yes, we most certainly are on the same side! And I have never ever agreed with the “common knowledge” idea that it’s improper to discuss politics or religion among friends and family. We can disagree, even vehemently, about aspects of our beliefs, and still be on the same side. In fact, I have friends whose political beliefs are pretty much diametrically opposed to mine with whom I can have knock down drag-out arguments and come out of it with both of us say, “Wow! Great discussion! I really learned something there!”
It’s so true that when you are writing in a comment forum like this, you can misinterpret very easily. What one person thinks is a simple, polite question may be taken as a challenge; what the other thinks is a reasoned, rational response may seem like a huge rant. But, please, lets not stop arguing, hissing, ranting, questioning, and wallowing around in the muddy ground. We need to do this! Without rants and responses and questions and misunderstandings that lead to common understanding and respect, we each live in our own little worlds afraid to speak up at the risk of offending or being offended.
It doesn’t matter if we agree; it simply matters if we are ignorant.
Posted by LeeAnn Gallucci on Nov 17, 2004 at 8:19 PM “But, please, lets not stop arguing, hissing, ranting, questioning, and wallowing around in the muddy ground.”
I thought thought this was a POLITICAL discussion.
LOL!
Sorry…couldn’t resist.
Posted by Liberal AND Proud on Nov 17, 2004 at 8:28 PM HAHAHAHAH
A good sense of humor is imperative in the midst of all of this!
Posted by LeeAnn Gallucci on Nov 17, 2004 at 8:31 PM LeeAnn Gallucci - thanks for the wonderful insights. It sometimes seems like those on the one side have to demonize the *people* on the other (for reference just read any thread here!). It is wonderful to know that there are people like you around still (especially for those of us that are agnostic and occasionally *hated* by BOTH sides!).
Have a terrific day. And many more wonderful discussions with friends and family. :) I hope to do the same.
Posted by aFriend on Nov 17, 2004 at 8:58 PM You can’t cure a disease by alleviating a symptom. It could, in fact, make the disease much harder to understand.
What we need is education to strive for understanding and acceptance. This problem is MUCH bigger than words and getting sidetracked by words is letting the real disease continue to flourish. The most important part though is people have to get to it themselves or it’s irrelevant. Being forced to do something just gives you a bad taste for it. I’m not saying I find the words acceptable, they just aren’t the problem and won’t fix it.
Posted by Losing Faith on Nov 17, 2004 at 8:59 PM Oops, I should say PERSONALLY, I don’t find the words acceptable (in offensive intent), but I’m hopefully wise enough to know I don’t have all the answers. Especially since here really aren’t any. :)
Posted by Losing Faith on Nov 17, 2004 at 9:03 PM Yup, I agree. It’s much bigger than words. As I said, the words are a reflection or indication of attitudes and issues. I still do believe that words influence people. If little boys go to little league and their fathers or coaches holler “hey, girls, get the lead out,” it teaches them that it’s OK to insult boys by calling them girls. This has been going on for so long, it’s hard to erradicate. But kids in the South heard their fathers calling grown men of color “boys” for a long time, too. When using certain phrases and epithets becomes socially uncomfortable, things begin to change. It still exists, but people are aware that it’s not really considered the “right” way to be by much of our culture. And the people of color have a right not to be insulted.
As an example, 18 years ago when I began working at my current job, some of the people I work with still thought racial jokes were funny and told them rather frequently. Those of us who thought it was offensive finally let them know (and tried to do it without being insulting). The jokes stopped and, eventually, several of the original tellers began trying to convince the rest of us that they are not prejudiced. They became more “politically correct” and wanted the rest of us to know it. It began with unacceptable speech, but it wound up with people re-evaluating their assumptions. There is not one person with whom I now work who would say inflamatory things about American ethnic groups. Now we just have to begin working on their intolerance for anything Middle Eastern.
It’s an ongoing battle.
Posted by LeeAnn Gallucci on Nov 17, 2004 at 9:14 PM aFriend - Thanks for the feedback. I tend to get into a subject and worry it to death. Glad you found some insights in it.
Posted by LeeAnn Gallucci on Nov 17, 2004 at 9:19 PM If there was fraud, it doesn’t require a centralized conspiracy to have pulled it off. For instance, in Sandusky County, Ohio (http://www.thenews-messenger.com/news/stories/20041116/localnews/1601347.html)<
9 precincts worth of votes were run through twice.
How hard, as a Republican partisan, would’ve it had been to note those precincts which went heavily Bush and to have ‘accidentally’ rerun just those ballots?
Not hard. Further, as in many of the other cases, the problem was caught not as a consequence of a clear, consistent set of quality checks but rather as ‘accidentally’ as the supposed mistake.Now, image hundreds of zealous Repub election workers all over doing the same thing. Would they have been encouraged to do so from on high? Hard to say, but considering that in my state the Repub party worked very hard to make sure our local election officials (those manning the stations for the BOE) were all Repubs, you could extrapolate that the word might’ve been sent down the chain of command.
Posted by WereSupposedToBelieveThis on Nov 17, 2004 at 10:12 PM Regardless of what the democratic party used to be, it is now the just the moderate half of the business party. This whole system now is one modelled on the idea of good cop/bad cop. The point being at the end of the day they both represent the same people. That’s not to say that all sane people should not vote democrat, the lesser of two evils is after all still the lesser of two evils. It just pays to be aware of the game and not get too mixed up in party politics. It is to a large degree a side show.
The amazing thing about the times we live in is that now the gloves are off and to a certain extent the ringwing establishment has come out of the closet and feels it can say and do the most outrageous things without any real opposition whatsoever. They can even now get away with rigging elections, and in future, once touch screens are fitted in every state they will not even have to pretend to defend their actions. Totalitarianism, here we come. Wake up and smell the coffee.By the way, Liberal AND proud, did the Nazi’s love thier children. No, not really. So why is it so hard to believe these people are any different. History throws up these freaks from time to time, those of the strick farther mentality. It is up to those who still have their heads screwed to see this for what it is and do what ever they can to restore true freedom and democracy. I love America, but also the true spirit of America which is about fairness and respect, intelligence and democracy.
Posted by Matilda on Nov 17, 2004 at 10:13 PM To Mark and everyone who has posted so far:
I’m upset by the outcome of the election. I think there’s an excellent chance that there was fraud. I’m not sure, but the circumstantial evidence is worth at least investigating to the best of our abilities. But I also have to ask…now what?
What if we could prove that there was fraud, and that Bush was connected with it? Would the election be recounted? Would Bush be impeached? Would all the yuks who voted for him in the South change their opinions of him?
The Bush administration has an excellent way of instilling a philosophy in its citizens of “dead men do bleed,” or “don’t confuse me with the facts.” There are an incredible amount of Republicans who believe that Iraq did have WMDs and that we found them, no matter how conclusively we may prove otherwise. Anything else is a conspiracy theory. All this is because we haven’t been able to pin Bush down to any one crime that everyone in the country KNOWS is a crime. Nixon masterminded a burglary. Clinton committed adultery and lied under oath. While we can make arguments that Bush has violated various government and international procedures, to many Americans these crimes appear innocuous and well-intentioned enough that they say, “well, we can make an exception for him this once.” The only thing that would have any effect is if we could find something impossible for Bush to sugarcoat, something that would shock the nation so much that for once they would have to question his credibility.
And I’m not even sure that’s possible. So many of Bush’s supporters are so insane that they might even applaud Bush for engaging in a really despicable act. In New York City, of all places, my father had a bumper sticker of his vandalized (it originally said “Vote Bush Out”, and someone tore part of it off so it read “Vote Bush”).
Before anything can happen, people have to stop giving Bush the benefit of the doubt. How much has to happen before that?
Posted by Roger Crane on Nov 17, 2004 at 11:34 PM Some of us have faced the possibility that the Democrats just don’t WANT to be president of the United States at this point in history.
The bogus “War on Terror” more accurately the “War of Terror” is not something the Democrats feel in their bones. In other words, the Democratic party could face an image problem if they started acting like Adolf, or Bush. Therefore, the Democrats keep conceding the presidency (literally) so as to keep the status quo two party system intact.
If the legions of deluded Dem voters figured out that their own party was as brutal, ruthless and murderous as the Republicans, this could force a realignment of the American electorate. That, I suggest, is the real reason John Kerry stepped out of the ring without so much as throwing a single punch. Kerry was pressured to quit so as to preserve the dominant “good cop” myth of the Democratic party.
The one thing that Michael Moore’s Fahrenheit 9-11[1] showed me in no uncertain terms was that Al Gore passed when it came to investigating the vote fraud of Florida. Not one Democratic senator signed the house complaint to investigate the purging of the voter rolls. Not one, of a majority of senators (including John Kerry). Why not? A Democratic sitting Vice-President couldn’t get one Democratic senator to agree to investigate how a national election had been stolen by the brother of his challenger?
Obviously, a decision had been made somewhere that Gore should not be in the oval office, for some—as yet—unknown reason. That reason materialized on September 11th of 2001. The United States was attacked by elements of its own intelligence apparatus. Outrageous “mistakes” had to be concocted in order for the machinations of the FBI and the CIA to “fail” to stop these “attacks.” After the attacks, a swift and ruthless police state agenda had to be rammed through before The People could mount any sort of resistance.
Such ruthlessness does not fit the traditional “good cop” persona associated with the Democratic Party. It fits nicely with the Republicans, however.
So what happened in 2004?
One fact says everything. There were more than 155,000 “provisional ballots” uncounted in Ohio, plus 93,000 punch cards that didn’t register a vote for president (to be counted in a recount), plus tens of thousands of overseas absentee ballots uncounted. [2] George W. Bush claimed victory by only 136,000 (unofficial) votes. If the state of Ohio were flipped, in favor of Kerry, he would win the Electoral College and be the president.
Kerry ignored these 248,000 plus potential votes and dropped out without explanation. He also urged the entire nation to rally behind Bush.
And that’s just the tip of the electoral iceberg!
On November 10th, Democracy Now! reported that one county of Ohio, “registered a whopping 93,000 more votes than voters.” [3] These are technically “over votes” and must be thrown out in a recount. They are also blatant evidence of vote tampering and fraud. These votes nearly all went to Bush’s column.
136 - 93 = 43
Now there’s a ballgame. Bush suddenly only leads by 43,000 votes, with evidence of large numbers of “over votes” in play, potentially reaching other Ohio counties.
CONTINUED AT CRIMES OF THE STATE BLOG
crimesofthestate.blogspot.com
Posted by John Doraemi on Nov 18, 2004 at 12:53 AM “As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart’s desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”
H.L. Mencken (1880 - 1956)
Posted by James Chapman on Nov 18, 2004 at 2:43 AM Thanks for the great column. The mainsteam media cannot be depended on to do squat. Instead of focusing on fraud, Candy Crowley of CNN is on a speaking tour explaining that Kerry lost the election because he prefers “green tea,” not the common man’s tea, whatever that may be.
The mainsteam media has denigrated into becoming just one big episode of Entertainment Tonight where important stories are untold and 24/7 coverage is given to a man, one in a million every year, who killed his pregnant wife. I am truly sorry for that; but it is not unique at all.
Personally, I am at the point where I no longer watch the Mainsteam Media. I browse the internet for stories from The Guardian, BBC, Pravda-English and the like. If you want to know what is happening in your own country, trust not your own citizens to report the truth. They are OWNED.
Posted by Vicki on Nov 18, 2004 at 6:01 AM Mark.
Keep fighting the good fight, I believe, and more and more do every day. This is looking more and more like a DU-over election
we’re all behind you! a little to the left. :)
Posted by Brundlefly on Nov 18, 2004 at 8:20 AM The third parties raised enough for the recount in Ohio. Now that lunatic Blackwell just needs to certify HIS numbers.
Posted by Losing Faith on Nov 18, 2004 at 7:49 PM I hope somebody corrects youAreRight!!!‘s error about Kerry’s service. It was Kerry’s second tour of duty that was abbreviated to four months.
He should also be advised that Rodney King’s personal history -particularly after his excessive beating by the police - isn’t relevant and his lame attempt fails to dismantle Crispin’s analogy.
Last, people who include multiple punctuation are usually retarded and psychotic, and should be locked away in a place where they give pudding treats at lunch for the ones that learn to tie their shoelaces.
Posted by Maezeppa on Nov 19, 2004 at 1:37 AM Maybe the Democratic leadership is rolling over because they expect one or more disasters in the next 4 years and want the Imperial Spendthrift Party (aka the GOP) to take a richly deserved fall?—-Monster from the Id
Posted by Monster from the Id on Nov 19, 2004 at 2:01 AM Yikes!
So much ignorance everywhere, red state people! (Remember, the communists were the “reds”.)
Bush failed to protect us on 9/11. Bush says, “only I can protect you”. By killing hundreds of thousands of innocent men, women, and children in Iraq, Bush keeps making more and more enemies who are determined to destroy us. If you voted for Bush because you bought into his fantasy world of safety through killing, then you deserve the destruction that Bush has made inevitable.
Bush claims to be a “conservative”. What has he conserved? He has squandered a huge surplus and borrowed money from our children and grandchildren so he could give tax breaks to his wealthy friends. If you voted for Bush because you thought he was a conservative, then you deserve the financial destruction that Bush has caused.
Bush claims to be a “Christian”. Yet Bush has ordered the murder of countless people. God forbade killing (“Thou shalt not kill”). Jesus was totally opposed to killing (“Even as you do unto the least of these, you do unto me”). If you voted for Bush because you are a Christian, then you deserve to rot in hell for all eternity.
I could go on forever. In summary: If you voted for Bush, then you voted against your own best interests, no matter how you determine those interests. Only the truly deluded could vote for Bush, the new Hitler.
Posted by me on Nov 19, 2004 at 3:39 AM “If you voted for Bush because you bought into his fantasy world of safety through killing, then you deserve the destruction that Bush has made inevitable.”
“If you voted for Bush because you are a Christian, then you deserve to rot in hell for all eternity.”
“Only the truly deluded could vote for Bush, the new Hitler.”
Bush is a lousy President, but you sound a lot more like Hitler than he does. Do you want to add the nonvoters to your very long list of people who deserve to die and rot in hell, or are the 60 million Bush voters enough for you?
Posted by Honest Liberal on Nov 19, 2004 at 4:38 AM I read and reread the article, and what I come up with is what might have occurred, not what did occur. Could there have been a stolen election? Perhaps, but it hasn’t been demonstrated, there’s no concrete evidence cited. It’s more a diatribe on what one should believe, rather than what one can prove. Comrade, there HAS to be evidence before accusation! Something clear and incontrovertible, such as the disenfranchisement of voters in Florida in 2000. Now THAT is an independently verifiable (and felonious) event. I’d love to believe that GWB could be caught out in an election fraud scandal, then there’d be a chance to end this nonsense by January. But high-flown accusatory language in the absence of hard data just makes our side seem shrill and insupportable. Having said that, if you do indeed have that sort of evidence, publicize it with all speed, today and not tomorrow! Send it to every newspaper and TV station, in America and overseas! Get yourself on Oprah, BBC, and Canadian Broadcasting. Hell, get yourself on Jon Stewart’s Daily Show, reveal what you got! At the moment, the whole assertion of fraud looks like fringe-political sour grapes. And it’s further regrettable because the Bush team actually has a track record. Election 2000? Iraq?
Posted by Kuya on Nov 19, 2004 at 7:11 AM Thank you Mark Crispin Miller. As always, you’re on the money. You may be a lone voice, but you are a brave one. One wonders why some (David Corn for instance) always rush to reassure that there’s nothing to see and to move along? One hopes that time and history will discredit people of that ilk.
Posted by Jake on Nov 19, 2004 at 7:25 AM Dear Mark,
Thanks for summarizing news that appears elsewhere. I have been watching for the inevitable signs to emerge. But what is there to do? In Ohio, a weak lawsuit is filed by the Democrats to a Bush-appointed judge. In Florida, investigators face shady election workers and police opposition. Your mention of distraction by merging into details is astute. This thing has been planned in layer after layer, with multitudes of scapegoats to shrug it off—like the torture and callous killing in Iraq, which is made to look like a few bad apples rather than longstanding U.S. practice. Frankly, this is all very fucking scary. Do you have a personal plan to act, beside spreading the news? If this goes past January, it seems unlikely the stolen Congress will impeach. I would be obliged for ideas how to help.
Posted by Terry on Nov 19, 2004 at 10:30 AM Right on Mark.
The Freepers are out and boiut much on many “librul” websites, blogs and e-zines these datys. Has anyone else noticed this upsurge in Repug interest in what we are up to?Oh well, who cares, because what we have in mind now, there is not a law against and no army of police can stop.
Yes, absolutely, out the outrageous election results and just how fraudulent they are.
We agree. Then take the next step, sign on with the International boycott. Screw the politicians. They are only the middle men for the corporate sociopaths who are calling the shots, and have been for a very long time, though I do not recall a time when it has been this obvious and when there has been a growing, Global effort against them, that is actually proving effective against the most vulnerable corporations indentified with America in general, and the Repugs and the war effort specifically. Look at American air carriers, just for one, and the real organizing is just beginning.
Think, People’s Sanctions Against Empire. We blue staters may feel powerless right now, but we aren’t, no matter who is in the White House, but the Bush re-coronation, has helped immensely, in terms of launching the efforts to make this movement one of the most effective in history.
Posted by Dot Dedman on Nov 19, 2004 at 2:16 PM It is our (Internet Readers and Authors) obligation to keep this issue from disappearing from the radar screens of the lazy and corrupt corporate media.
We must get this e-voting system under control now or as a nation we will have apathetically assimilated yet another change into our society without question!
Right wing hate radio is effective because when it gets hold of an issue, it’s like a pit bull and refuses to give it up until it becomes reality. We’ve seen that happen time after time and now it’s time for us to do the same thing on issues we consider vital to maintaing our democracy.
Posted by Michael LaMartina on Nov 19, 2004 at 8:03 PM I love the way the freepers can only suggest drugs to keep you from seeing what the Republicans have done.
If the vote were honest, it could be recounted a hundred times and still be the same numbers. Yet the Republicans fear counting it even once. What DO they have to be afraid of? Only the truth. We know what they did.
We know what they did. There is not one election result in this nation which is believable at this moment, with the possible except of the write-in mayoral election in San Diego. The numbers on everything else must be questioned. Did the people really elect all those Republican governors and senators? Tom DeLay? Did it happen, or were we merely told it happened?
The depression in this nation after the election tells the story. The post-election polls showing no hope for the future direction of this nation, for the war, for the economy, for anything, tells the story. This nation did NOT vote for more George.
Whatever. The Republicans wanted it. They got it. Everything that happens now is theirs. All the blood. All the death. All the despair. Theirs and theirs alone.
May they never sleep.
Posted by aquart on Nov 19, 2004 at 8:10 PM One thing that really bothers me: Democrats were terribly, terribly motivated to get out and vote—not just for Kerry but AGAINST Bush. Some waited over 9 hours to vote. Just in sheer numbers I would think the vote would have gone to Kerry. Were the Republicans equally motivated to vote FOR Bush? It seems unlikely. Maybe I’m wrong. But it’s another reason to suspect voter fraud.
Posted by Amazed on Nov 19, 2004 at 9:11 PM As fraud reports grow, it will be interesting to see the rhetorical and explanatory gymnastics the mainstream media will have to perform. Or, they can plug their ears and collectively
scream “nah, nah, nah… I can’t hear you!”Let’s hope they go the way of the dinosaur. I find far more
credible reporting online. Stenographic bootlickers they are.Keep up the good work Mark,
You’re a national treasure,Dave
Posted by Dave on Nov 19, 2004 at 9:49 PM Giving Karl Rove the benefit of the doubt by assuming that the election was on the up and up when Exit Polls showed eerie turnarounds is like inviting a snake into your home and being surprised when when it bites you.
The burden of proof is not on John Q Public, it’s on the government. In this case, we not only saw vote totals greater than the registered voters in some precincts, all-day lines in the rain at some
understaffed and under equipped polling places, and Republican intimidation of black voters in Florida. Then there’s the wrongly blacklisted non-felons. Then we move on to the black boxes which a majority of House members would required to leave a paper trail for the 2004 election….IF Dennis Hastert and Tom Delay hadn’t sealed up that bill in committee, so it conveniently never saw a vote on the floor. Never. Seeing as they won, why wouldn’t they want a paper trail to show they won ?
Why would we trust someone who said WMD and then NO WMD ? Who said Osama dead or alive, and then I don’t spend much time on it. We have been lied to over and over again and yes they would definitely try anything they thought they could get away with. Given the lack of audit trails, thier PR Spin machine, and the vast and varied nature of recounting any county, let alone any state, what makes anyone think they would believe that cheating would likely be discovered, let alone traceable to the top people ?
Posted by Bob on Nov 19, 2004 at 10:01 PM youareRight!!! has found Nirvana ...
And Again: “Liberal and Proud” :
God is great, and our LEADER is his messenger. From him all the greatest of our nation flows.Be calm…be good.
Now, we can all KNEEL. Our earthly SAVIOR, to many, HAS returned!!!!
Posted by SeaClearly on Nov 19, 2004 at 11:18 PM Early on in this thread, people suggested writing the mainstream media to ask them to cover the story of this stolen election. We must also write them whenever they present stories that dismiss as “conspiracy theories” the overwhelming evidence of this election’s theft, the logical conclusion of the failed attempts by the GOP right-wingnuts to depress the vote, intimidate voters and lie through their teeth, all the while claiming God was on their side. At the risk of taking up much space in this thread, I am attaching two letters I have already sent—the first to Peter Jennings at ABC News and the second to NPR’s “All Things Considered”, after both of these media outlets presented very condescending stories about the evidence for election theft. But before getting to those letters, there is a GREAT DEAL of mounting evidence of election theft (“glitches”, “double counts”, “malfunctioning machines”, etc., etc., ad nauseum—all of which favored the Busies). Here are several excellent links to this accumulating evidence, in no particular order:
www.countdown.msnbc.com
www.blackboxvoting.com
www.bradblog.com
www.legitgov.org
www.moderateindependent.com
www.democraticunderground.comNow to my letters to ABC and NPR—some of the “mainstream media” who appear (with the notable exception of Keith Olbermann) to be up “See No Evil” creek without a journalistic or patriotic paddle.
———————-To Peter Jennings (ABC News):
After watching your condescending report last night on the evening news about the “conspiracy theories” which suggest that the Presidential election was stolen, I decided that I needed to respond with information that even a news reader like yourself can understand. Let’s start with the simplest example:
Someone offers to enter into a wager with you, betting money on the outcome of a coin toss. He convinces you to use his coin for the contest. The first toss results in a “tails” and your opponent picks up the money. The second coin toss results in a “tails” again and—once again—your opponent picks up the money. When the third through fifth coin tosses also result in “tails”, you begin to squirm. Then, when the sixth through tenth coin tosses also result in “tails”, you begin to think that something might be amiss. From this point forward, your continuing to play this game of chance (sic) is more an intelligence test than a wager. Just when do you protest or walk away? I guess that depends on how much you trust in “chance”, despite the evidence to the contrary. If you keep playing, you’re probably the same type of person who would dig through tons of horse manure, convinced that a pony is hidden in there somewhere.
How is this example relevant to the Presidential election? Over the past week, we have been flooded with news stories from throughout the country which documented “problems” with the voting process, “glitches” in the electronic voting and optical scanning machines, widespread failure of the formerly highly predictive exit polling process to predict the final outcome, and myriad other problems. In every case, these stories have indicated that the “problems”, “glitches” and “failures” all favored Bush in the final analysis. If these problems, glitches and failures were random; we would expect to find that as many of them favored Kerry as Bush. But no—all of them favored Bush. How do you explain this—by saying that Bush was really on a lucky streak OR that perhaps we were playing with his coin?
It seems to me that you folks there at ABC (and the other media outlets to whom I have copied this message) have short-circuits in your short-term memories. For months leading up to the election, you have presented stories from around the nation about Republican efforts to suppress the vote and to intimidate voters, including the widely covered story that a firm hired to conduct voter registration drives in two states had thrown away large numbers of Democratic voter registration forms. These stories were so common and so widespread —and the perpetrators so one-sided (all Republicans)—that the pattern of intimidation and interference with the election process was easy to see, even for news readers. And yet, when the election itself was so clearly tampered with, you collectively act surprised. Where have you been for the past six months?
Those of us who were hearing these stories (and who were also actively engaged in the campaign in our own states) were not surprised, because we dealt with similar tactics every day by the Republicans. Here in Tennessee, Republicans aggressively interferred on several occasions with voter registration activities I was responsible for, they harassed our phone and door-to-door canvassers, they vandalized our Kerry/Edwards signs and our cars, they defaced our campaign headquarters—they did everything they could do to intimidate us and to discourage people from voting. When I had a “letter to the editor” published in the Nashville paper entitled “The Republican Party does not own God”, I received threatening letters at home demanding that I “shut the hell up” and threatening to shut me up if I wouldn’t stop speaking my own mind.
And yet, in last night’s ABC news broadcast, you chose to discuss one Florida county when suspicious results appeared in over 30 Florida counties. (Even the one county you did discuss showed a 2004 voting pattern that did not mirror the patterns in previous elections in terms of the disproportionate volume of votes for Bush. A first year statistics student could see that—why couldn’t you?) The “problems” and “glitches” in Ohio were so numerous as to be obvious, yet you dismissed them. (And by the way, the Ohio web-site that reports the number of voters registered by precinct and the number of votes cast, was “down” last night when last I checked.)
As far as the problems with the exit polls, Dick Morris (hardly a liberal these days) said it best:“Dick Morris, the infamous political consultant to the first Clinton campaign who became a Republican consultant and Fox News regular, wrote an article
for The Hill, the publication read by every political junkie in Washington, DC, in which he made a couple of brilliant points.“‘Exit Polls are almost never wrong,’ Morris wrote. ‘They eliminate the two major potential fallacies in survey research by correctly separating actual voters from those who pretend they will cast ballots but never do and by
substituting actual observation for guesswork in judging the relative turnout of different parts of the state.’”Further, any random sampling differences between the exit polls and the “reported” votes should have resulted in the exit poll results sometimes erring for Kerry and other times for Bush. The fact that every swing state’s exit polls suggested a Kerry victory when Bush was “declared” the winner in them would not be likely (or probable) if the differences between the exit polls and the “reported” votes were a matter of fluctuations in the sampling process. Further, there is no reason to believe that Kerry voters would have been more likely to be sampled than Bush voters, or more willing to truthfully report their votes, during the exit polls. Finally, the fact that the exit polling firms felt compelled to modify their findings during the middle of the process to allow the exit polls to match the “reported” votes is unprecedented in my experience—I have never heard of that adjustment taking place, even after the vote tabulations have been completed. (It is also very suspicious that the exit pollers’ server crashed for two hours during the height of the process of calling Ohio and Florida.)
Finally, I have now sent emails to the exit polling firms twice, asking that they answer four simple questions. This email represents the third time I will ask these questions. The questions are not complicated, but the answers to them may raise some serious questions themselves. So, in hopes that the third time is a charm, here goes:
“I think that (the exit polling firms) need to answer the following questions for the integrity of the exit polling process, for the future of (their) companies and for the sake of the American people:
1) What were the differences (if any) in the predictability of your exit polling process (i.e., how close your exit polling predictions were to the final vote) between states without electronic voting machines (EVM), states with EVM and a “paper trail” and states with EVM and no “paper trail”?
2) What were the differences (if any) in the predictability of your exit polling process for the above three categories between battleground and non-battleground states?
3) What were the differences (if any) in the predictability of your exit polling process between states whose election process was controlled by Republicans and those controlled by Democrats?
4) Much has been made about the differences in voter preferences based on the time of day that voters went to the polls. Did you find any evidence that Democrats/Kerry supporters were more likely to vote earlier than Republicans/Bush supporters? If there were differences, how did they shake out between battleground and non-battleground states?”
(Note to ITT readers: A University of Pennsylvania professor has already calculated that the odds that the differences between the exit polls and the “reported” votes in just three states—FL, PA and OH—occurred by chance is 250 million to 1. You can get the citation on www.countdown.msnbc.com Now back to the ABC letter.)
In closing, I would ask that ABC news and the other news media not white-wash the overwhelming evidence of election fraud that exists throughout the country, which is the logical extension of a years-long effort by Republicans to subvert the election process. You (and the Republicans) may want to keep denying that there is a turd in the punchbowl, but you can’t expect us (the American people) to keep drinking that punch for very much longer.———————
Letter to NPR’s “All Things Considered”:
Subject: Your poor story on the stolen electionTo “All Things Considered” with a heavy heart, burdened by disappointment:
I have been a very appreciative “All Things Considered” listener for the past three decades and a faithful contributor to public radio as a result. But never have I been more disappointed in your program than I was today listening to your trivialized story on the persistent concerns of many of us that the 2004 Presidential election was stolen. Unlike Faux News, we have come to expect and to rely on fair and balanced, thorough and rigorous, journalism from you; and today’s story was certainly beneath your standards.
The many thousands of us who are concerned about the integrity of the Presidential election process have come to our position because of the plethora of evidence that something foul is afoot in the body politic. That concern is based on a year’s worth of stories leading up to the election (as well as our own personal experiences in our own states) that the Republican Party would stop at nothing to intimidate and disenfranchise voters in order to insure Bush a second term. Because the Karl Rove crew is as crude and clumsy as they are venal, we believe that we are blessed with more than abundant evidence that this election was stolen. From the hundreds of election day “glitches” in the electronic voting equipment (all of which favored Bush, not Kerry) to the process-disrupting challenges of legitimate voters to the still unexplained over-votes in Ohio to the counter-intuitive voting patterns in Florida, many of us suspect that this election was tampered with. And all we are asking is that our concerns be addressed with the same seriousness, thoroughness and objectivity that we have come to expect from NPR. Today, we were sorely disappointed.
What we got was a very one-sided story that completely dismissed our concerns, and the evidence underpinning those concerns. Instead we get explanations that Florida’s conservative Democrats voted for Bush in numbers that weren’t replicated anywhere else because ... they were conservative Democrats. Instead, we get criticisms of the exit polling process that amount to one inaccurate prediction in one state, sixteen years ago. Instead, we get nothing that reflects any serious effort to review and weigh the abundant evidence of wrongdoing, all of which strains credibility and flies in the face of the science which underpins sampling theory, statistics and survey research. Shame on you for treating such a potentially nation-saving story in such a trivial and incomplete way.
I know a great deal about conservative Southern Democrats because I am surrounded by them here in middle Tennessee. And many of my conservative Southern Democrat (and Republican) neighbors are as disgusted with George Bush as I am and were as unwilling to give Bush another chance to further degrade our country. For them, it wasn’t about liberals versus conservatives. It was about responsibility versus irresponsibility, about competence versus incompetence, about truth versus lies. And many of them voted against George Bush as their only “moral” option.
They were unwilling to continue to support Bush because he has proven to be a President who favors the wealthy over the working class, who delights in policies that destroy God’s natural creation, who disregards any semblence of fiscal responsibility, who doesn’t hesitate to send thousands of American soldiers to their deaths while killing hundreds of thousands of Iraqis and Afghanis in order to make the world more profitable for heroin merchants and oil barons—all the while proclaiming himself the “moral” choice. In my middle Tennessee area, which is populated with more Republican residents than Democrats, we produced a vote that showed less support for Bush than Florida counties with a 4-to-1 Democratic advantage. An unexpected and suspicious result? Yes. Curious? You bet. Worthy of serious examination, attention and remedial action? You can bet your country on it. But all we get from ATC this afternoon was a passing nod toward conservative Democrats as the weak explanation for unexplainable voting patterns in Florida.
And the explanation we got for the serious disconnect between the exit polling results and the “reported” vote in key swing states is the unreliability of the exit polling process, based on a single incorrect prediction in a single state, sixteen years ago. Instead of this oddly archaic and singular example, perhaps your reporter should have ascertained how often exit polls have correctly predicted the final Presidential vote in states in all elections from 1988 through 2000. I expect that she would have found that exit polls have correctly predicted the final vote in well over 90% of the states during that period. In fact, she would likely have found similar highly predictive results in 2004 for exit polls in states that used paper ballots or other verifiable voting procedures. That might have made her, and you, as curious as we are about the incongruities experienced this year in key swing states, most of which used electronic voting procedures without any means to validate the accuracy of the final “reported” vote.
She might also have relied on recent statements about the accuracy of exit polls from Dick Morris, the Republican consultant and Fox News regular, who wrote a recent article for The Hill in which he made several salient points. (I’m omitting the Morris quote, which is above.) Again, the bulk of exit polling experience over the past two decades serves as validation of Mr. Morris’ points. It was the sudden unreliability of this method in several key swing states (and the unprecedented decision by the exit pollers themselves to “adjust” their results to mirror the “reported” vote in these key states, while the votes were still being counted) that have many of us questioning the validity of the election outcome. We would expect ATC and NPR to be as curious as we are about these aberrant results and as desirous of an accurate explanation. Instead, we get “Well, one exit poll incorrectly predicted that Dukakis won California in 1988, so the method must be unreliable.” Huh? Say what?
Finally, it was highly ironic that you followed your election fraud story with a story about a narrowly averted airplane disaster at the Los Angeles airport. The parallels are apparent and prescient. In the latter story, an air traffic controller incorrectly told an approaching airliner that the runway was “all clear” and that the pilot could land safely. It was only because the pilot could see with his own eyes the clear and present danger and overrule the air traffic controller’s incorrect instructions that a tragedy was averted. Today, in more and more states that have opted for electronic voting procedures without any paper trail to validate the vote, we are truly flying blind and placing our trust in a system without any backup safety procedures. Systems based on “trust us” procedures are doomed to failure, often with tragic consequences. The possible theft of the 2004 Presidential election through the misuse of these new voting “systems”, if allowed to stand unchallenged, may be only the first of many electoral tragedies that will bring this country down more swiftly, more assuredly and more completely than another set of misguided terrorists in other commandeered airlines could ever do. We need to return to voting systems that allow us to see what is real whenever and wherever we suspect foul play, and abandon systems that can easily be compromised and that have already demonstrated a propensity to “crash and burn”, without any recourse.
Don’t expect this story to go away—the evidence is simply too compelling and too commonplace to ignore. So ATC will have more opportunities to help set the record straight, and to regain your previous singular reputation for honesty and seriousness of purpose on my journalistic pedestal. You should do that, for the sake of your own reputation and credibility, and for the sake of our country. To do otherwise—to remain silent or cynically superficial in the face of the great and growing evidence of misconduct in this election—is to risk losing many very loyal fans and to hasten our abandonment of an election process that is now flying blind, in the control of our own homegrown fundamentalist fanatics, and headed for heartache. We all deserve your best (which was sorely missing today) and the country can abide nothing less, if we are to deserve our title as the “beacon of democracy” that we have so pridefully proclaimed for ourselves.
———-
One last point (just in case anyone has continued to read this far): I appreciated the comments of “redstate” early on in this thread regarding what his reaction would be if this election theft is proven. I think every true American—regardless of their political persuasion—will rise up en masse against anyone who can be proven to have tampered with our electoral process on such a widespread scale. In fact, I am counting on it. Otherwise, we will have lost our country (and the world will have lost faith in the democratic process, at least as the USA practices it) more assuredly as a result of this theft than from anything that Bin Laden could ever do.
Now back to packing my bags. I’m on stand-by to help recount the votes in Ohio, Florida or New Mexico—whichever call comes first. As far as saving our country, the Hopi Elders were right: “we are the ones we have been waiting for.”
Let’s roll.
Posted by Bernie Ellis, Fly, TN on Nov 20, 2004 at 3:10 AM can anyone out there give the people of the world an explanation?just one good reason for making weapons!!all this tragic death being wrought so WEAPONS makers are allowed to continue—-A REVOLUTION IS THE ONLY WAY LEFT
Posted by richard jenkins on Nov 20, 2004 at 4:00 AM I want to see a list of the names of the supposed 59 million “voters” that selected the Bushman. They’re not out there. We have a “president” squatting in the White House thru fraud. I’m teaching my kids an improved verse for the “pledge”...“one nation under fraud”... This is no longer a democracy. The right wing parrots spewing pablum above here are nothing more than that. Those greedy little pricks can prance along the path of denial right off the Bush precipice approaching. If they really cared about this country they’d truly seek for every vote to be counted. Rocks in a bucket seem more trustworthy than partisan, proprietary vote “counts” with no oversight. We’d be much stupider than we already appear to be by not fixing this. It does seem like a problem worth addressing.
Posted by Steve W on Nov 20, 2004 at 4:47 AM To Roger and others who are asking what to do about having their voice heard in protest of the question of the validity of our vote:
http://www.moderateindependent.com/v2i21election.htm#topAnd,
http://www.petitiononline.com/uselect/petition.html
Posted by Lisa R. Holt on Nov 20, 2004 at 5:17 AM We need to use the exact same tactics back on them.
Automatically, at every turn of pen or lip:
“There were thousands upon thousands of instances of election fraud committed by Republican operatives and the electronic vote was manipulated to favor Republicans. There is an ocean of evidence to show it.”
Preface everything with those two sentences. End everything with those two sentences. Repeat often. Mantra their own #$$es. Long drawn out arguments do not penetrate into the two sentence conscioussnesses out there…so tack this on the beginning and end of everything and pepper it through the middle.
Dan
Posted by Dan Stafford on Nov 20, 2004 at 5:00 PM Dear Mark,
Dr. Freeman, U. of Pennsylvannia, has an insightful paper, dtd Nov. 10, 2004, in which he examines three aspects of the voter exit poll variables. His conclusion was that the odds are 250 million to one that all three key states of FL, OH, and PA could have varied from their predicted tallies from the exit polls, to their “actual” reported tallies. His degree was from M.I.T., so I assume he can add and subtract. If I believe his analysis, then people like us need to involve ourselves in an inquiry of how this occured.
http://www.buzzflash.com/alerts/04/11/ale04090.htmlI agree that the profit-seeking motivation of what passes for the Fourth Estate, has temporarily obscured the vision and integrity of many journalists and editors.
That said, what follows is up to us.Vaughn Beams
Dayton, OH
Posted by Vaughn Beams on Nov 20, 2004 at 8:04 PM It is possible to commit the perfect crime, if you control the investigation.
Posted by Frederick Douglass on Nov 21, 2004 at 12:34 AM You go Mark! Thank God someone is finally broadcasting the truth! We love you! Oh yes, tell Keith he is a babe and we love him too! Real Christians tell the truth.
Peace, Kathleen
Posted by Kathleen on Nov 21, 2004 at 1:23 AM That anybody would even contemplate taking the word of the endlessly lying Bush administration on ANYTHING is a mark of how deep this country has fallen into some incomprehensible form of brainwashing.
Every point you make is the same thing I and many others observed in the weeks and months leading up to the election. And that doesn’t even include the comments I’ve heard from seasoned foreign election observers who were frankly shocked at the partisan, inefficient and secretive nature of the American election process. One said that he had never seen anything like it in any other democratic country, including new democracies in Africa. The very idea of partisan people conducting an election is asking for corruption right on the surface.
There is every reason to suspect this election, and no good reason not to. That in itself doesn’t prove anything, but it does show that the entire process needs to be overhauled from top to bottom and made transparent and nonpartisan - and with the Republicans in power, it’s obvious that that will never happen.
Posted by Marla on Nov 21, 2004 at 5:45 AM I’m just a little confused. Maybe someone could enlighten me without throwing a lot of Right and Left zingers…. this is about DEMOCRACY people! Wake Up!
I juat don’t understand why more people aren’t up in arms questioning the integrity of our voting system. When winners are determined with a margin so thin you could barely get a credit card between them, let alone a piece of paper, we need to ALL demand due diligence. Republicans would certainly be up in arms about information such as this if their candidate had lost.
I feel that in order to STOP any problems from occurring again next time, that everyone, republicans and democrats alike, need to look at voting from a closer, more analytical vantage point. Ignoring the fact that throughout certain states such as Ohio (where I am from), as well as the nation, there were significant anomalies with the voting process just *can’t* be brushed away as insignificant.
It’s far more important to ensure that our voting system is fair and equitable and reliable than to simply think the matter is over and done with until the next election. American citizens must be assured that the process of voting is not something to be questioned, but to be cherished as our right in this democracy. After all, given our position in Iraq right now…. the world is watching.
Posted by kali on Nov 21, 2004 at 5:57 AM Thanks for posting your letters Bernie. I, too, wrote several letters—mainly about Ohio anomalies (I had NO problems voting, I happen to live in a very republican area, (Bush rallied in my neighborhood to a tune of 50,000 supporters)—and in a less than two mile strip there had to have been at least 6 polling places, all with over 5 punch card machines each), not to mention all of the others polling places throughout our area.
I wrote to NPR All Things Considered, too, when they portrayed all of the voting anomalies as “myth”—
the end of my letter states:
“I understand the need to “calm” the rumor-mill…..yet….if things do seem to be a bit “off” in many areas of the country (and remember, Bush won Ohio by less than 200,000 votes of over 100 MILLION cast), are we just supposed to sit back and accept these irregularities as “the way things are”? Aren’t we, reporters and citizens alike, supposed to question and investigate to verify what we are hearing/seeing is true or not? Dig deep. Dig deeper. Prove the rumor-mills wrong. But don’t give us suppositions of the psychology of today’s voter.”In fact, LOTS of people wrote in—because the next day, during reader’s comments they read two letters directly about this report, and the next morning they were IN Youngstown, Ohio, had found a voter who had problem with the touchscreen machine voting for Bush when he pressed Kerry, and it was verified by a poll worker who helped him correct the issue (it *wasn’t* user error)...
so all of you—Speak Out! Don’t be complacent and think that you can do nothing. If you are feeling as insignificant as a mosquito about now, remember that enough mosquitos in the same room as a human can be more than a damn nuisance. They HAVE to pay attention then! Especially when people, who have never ever spoken together or have met each other, or have found “talking points” on a website, discuss the same problems, or have similar observations about the entire voting process.
Posted by kali on Nov 21, 2004 at 6:30 AM ...could it be…. and this is definitely reaching…. but could it be that Kerry Conceded because *more* could be done by the pissed off masses, than by a forced recount of a couple of Ohio counties that would then be Halted by the Republican Secretary of State (who had his own “tactics” of voter supression in less than a month before the election), which would then be determined by the Supreme court (and we all know where that went before….)
Sure, it sucks. Kerry’s not saying anything either way, so it’s just a guess. The DNC can support recount attempts (Ohio is going to be recounted, but only after Blackwell posts the final numbers, at the latest possible point—which will give the recount only two weeks), but again, if they get too involved, it would be seen as a partisan thing. The gentlemen, third party candidates, behind the recount aren’t necessarily trying to “find” Kerry votes, but to ensure that the Ohio voting system is valid…. after all, if fraud is determined and *verified*—even after election—do you think Bush will actually stay in power?
Posted by kali on Nov 21, 2004 at 7:05 AM Thank God someone has the balls to shout out that something stinks to high heaven!
I am fed up with fellow Democrats telling me to “get over it and move on.” Move on to what? Move on to more frustrating campaigns and elections only to have the results subverted by the Republican Party?
My question is simply: How much is too much when it comes to tolerating election fraud? Lets grow some backbones people.
We should not forget the nature of what’s at stake. John Kerry has the ability and intelligence to broker international cooperation, to help defuse the growing Islamic rage at our actions overseas, and to lead efforts to actually protect our homeland. The Republicans are quick to capitalize on the tragedy of September 11, but incredibly resistant to taking direct action. They have another agenda, and it’s not a pro-life agenda by any stretch of the imagination.
We American voters owe it to our troops, to the vulnerable citizens of other countries, and to our forefathers to fight tooth and claw while there’s still time to turn this thing around.
Thank you Mark Crispin Miller for staying on this story.
Posted by Liam Rooney on Nov 21, 2004 at 11:15 AM Thank you Lisa R. for the Moderate Independent Link—I feel Validated! *grin* I just read it today, and am sending it on to several people.
I made my first post about the Right/Left zingers after reading about a page of these comments—starting on page one.
another small note—I mistyped something above—Bush won Ohio with less than 200,000 votes, out of a COUNTRY total of over one hundred million. Ohio certainly didn’t have one hundred million.
so sorry.
Posted by kali on Nov 21, 2004 at 6:46 PM First of all I was in the National Guard and I’m really sick and tired of hearing Bush’s service lambasted. Every time some wild claim is made someone in the Bush camp can show valid military records that he served within the constraints of his contract. From my personal experience of eight years the Guard was always accomadating of me when it came to my job or schooling. My father had nothing to do with that, he’s a simple truck driver. The National Guard does take your private life into account for certain things. Attacks like this are just like the right’s attacks against Kerry and his purple hearts, he earned them, leave him alone. His own accounts do have some discrepancies though but I wouldn’t let that crap influence my decision. What he did after the war however is fair game.
Secondly this article makes wild claims that if proveable would certainly constitute a recount. But I ask you where is the proof? I don’t want to hear gut feelings and ideas, I want a smoking gun.
Posted by giantsox on Nov 21, 2004 at 9:02 PM I don’t know about smoking gun…. I would have to say that I truly don’t believe “one” person (or group) was behind this on a strategy level….
yet, with any bit of reading about things that happened in swing states, things look a bit fishy. For Example—in Columbus—68 voter machines just conviently were not deployed, even while people were stading FOR HOURS to vote.
http://www.freepress.org/columns/display/3/2004/990
on purpose? evil plot? plain incompetence?
However you decide to see it, the fact remains that Ohio was rife with such incidents. And even if it adds up to nothing—and our system is just screwed up, (which cannot be determined UNLESS there is accountabilty and investigation) it still begs the question why on earth are we telling other countries how to be democratic when it seems we still have a lot of work to do….
Posted by kali on Nov 21, 2004 at 9:15 PM This is an interesting little article too, that should probably be looked into more, whaddya think?
http://www.theeveningleader.com/articles/2004/11/06/news/news.01.txt
Posted by kali on Nov 21, 2004 at 9:54 PM The first article is entirely too partisan and leaves too much information for the reader to assume. Yes the voting machines were held back it appears, but when every other headline is Bush-bashing, it would lead me to believe that possibly there might be a personal agenda here as opposed to objective reporting.
As for the second article this is proof we need to fix our voting system right now not wait another four years and complain when the same thing happens. This just undermines the U.S. as the longest standing democracy.
Posted by giantsox on Nov 22, 2004 at 12:07 AM Think about it…record number turnout of voters did NOT show up to continue to support the incumbent - they stood in line (many for several hours of rain) to express their voice in the urgency for significant CHANGE!!!! I mean, when Bush gets 4000 from a precinct where there were only 638 voters? Come on; I’m no mathematician, but that’s “fuzzy math” by anybody’s standards.
Posted by Lisa R. on Nov 22, 2004 at 12:49 AM Mr. Miller:
Excellent article, I couldn’t have said it better myself. Keep up the good work.
Posted by Theloneous on Nov 22, 2004 at 1:15 AM I am not telling you with any certainty that you or your conclusions are wrong Lisa R., but I do require if someone is going to make a claim(like 4000 votes in an area with only 683 registered voters) that they can refernce me the non-biased source they got it from. My ears(in this case eyes) are wide open to any real evidence. My opinion is such because I have yet to see any.
And if change is truly important to some one rain and a wait won’t deter that person, at least if it were me and it was that important I would’ve waited.
Posted by giantsox on Nov 22, 2004 at 2:35 AM giantsox:
Entirely too partisan because it’s in a liberal paper? The story would have more merit if it were in the Cincinnati Enquirer, perhaps?
Ok… how about this weirdism?
http://www.enquirer.com/editions/2004/11/05/loc_warrenvote05.html (Is it more believable now, because of the conservative news organization reporting it?)
I agree—reports need to be verified and understood. But, this investigation should happen REGARDLESS if it changes the outcome of the election. That is not the point to people stating that there were anomalies in their district. Our system is FLAWED. And we must demand that something be done to fix it!
****
Your comment about wanting a source for the more votes than registered Voters: http://apnews.myway.com/article/20041105/D865R1DO0.html
Further weird things….
North Carolina weirdism http://newsobserver.com/news/story/1831015p-8145140c.html
more (Ohio, PA) with same company http://www.vindy.com/basic/news/281829446390855.php
Other strange things… http://www.opednews.com/hartmann_111904_in_the_act.htm
From the Boston Chronicle about Bills Passed so that there would be NO paper trails with electronic voting…
http://www.baltimorechronicle.com/110604Hartmann.shtmlSee these articles, DECEMBER 2003 for some interesting perspective of Electronic Voting.
http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20031204.html December 4, 2003
http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/pulpit20031211.html December 11, 2003
Posted by kali on Nov 22, 2004 at 3:23 AM Oh, and let’s not forget Balckwell shutting down precints PRIOR to the election…
http://www.portlandphoenix.com/features/other_stories/multi1/documents/042581 174.asp
Posted by kali on Nov 22, 2004 at 3:27 AM Mark, you and a few others here have some serious issues. Seek thee help.
For Abe, you’re an idiot. Washington Post already did an article on Kerry and not all of his records have been released.
Quote: A spokesman for the Navy Personnel Command, Mike McClellan, said he was not authorized to release the full file, which consists of at least a hundred pages.
Get a clue and a life. You backed a loser, move on.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A21239-2004Aug21.html
Posted by justme on Nov 22, 2004 at 10:32 PM Correction to those that keep saying this is a democracy, this country is a Republic. Go back to school.
Liberal AND Proud, should be Liberal AND Loud, nothing proud about what you say. I even could care less about your personal problems.
Fucked up site.
Posted by justme on Nov 22, 2004 at 10:41 PM I see in these articles how it’s easy to state that opinion Lisa R. absolutely, but again these are inferences based off that particular journalist. I want to see the facts that led to these conclusions. I don’t need analysis I do that on my own. I’ll never say your wrong untill I can prove otherwise.
To justme this is not considered a direct democracy, a republic is a form of represenative democracy. Under this concept everyoune gets an equal say no matter what your views are. So refering to our country as a democracy is an accurate statement. Although I do agree with you choice of presidential candidates, I don’t agree with you personally attacking these people. The hardest part of freedom is letting someone excersise theirs. If you want to reach someone usually swearing at them and insulting them doesn’t work. Rise above it. If this site bothers you that much don’t type the URL.
Posted by giantsox on Nov 23, 2004 at 12:02 AM Lisa R.,
One last thing, I don’t want a conservative or liberal bias when hearing the facts. The job of a reporter is to report the facts and where they got them, I’ll provide my bias based on those facts.
Posted by giantsox on Nov 23, 2004 at 12:39 AM giantsox:
Don’t know if you are confusing me with Lisa R., but I live in Cincinnati. The Cincinnati Enquirer is an extremely conservative paper—the fact that they actually reported on the Warren County Lock Down was actually a surprise that it came from them *first* (usually our other presses pick up stories such as this).
I’m not sure what you mean when you say you don’t want a conservative or liberal bias when hearing the facts… does this mean that the Warren County story should have just stated that
1. Officials sited Homeland Security Issues, and a directive from the FBI to not allow any press (or anyone else) in during the tabulation.
2. FBI reports that they never gave such a directive.
3. Warren County officials have yet to give a satisfactory explanation for their actions.Or is that too bias too?
just wondering…
Posted by kali on Nov 23, 2004 at 1:37 AM Sorry for the mistake Kali.
That seems fishy to me also, but in their defense I have dealt with the press and standing a security checkpoint before (never for an election though) and the press does create many problems because they do love to over step their bounds. Hopefullly my experience though was unique to those individuals but it is all I have seen.
Those are ironclad facts not opinions or any bias, but it’s not enough to convince me beyond a doubt that voter fraud in fact did occur. It does however give it ample opportunity. I need rock solid proof not just possibility.
Posted by giantsox on Nov 23, 2004 at 2:19 AM So I take it you did read the Warren County article.
Yes it IS fishy. But it has nothing to do with security check points, this is unprecedented in counting votes. HIGHLY irregular. And the question is…. *why* ?
Keith Olbermann has been trying to keep up with some of the irregularities—and talks about the Berkley report that came out Thursday.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6368819/
I think he talks about both sides quite well in the first article. To be honest, he’s written more about the after effects than I have had time to read.
Of course these instances need more scrutiny. I don’t think anyone is denying that. I do know that when I (and thousands of other people) wrote in to All Things Considered after Pam Fessler’s report dismissed the anamolies in Florida as “Dixicrats” and other unprovable suppositions, that I (and others in so many words), ask NPR to ask questions, and dig deeper. Disprove the rumors, but don’t give us their interpretation of the data. Kinda along the same line you are coming from.
The media shouldn’t in one breath tell the public that the exit polls stated that “Moral Values” was high on the list of voters, and that’s why Bush won, and then in the *same report* state that the reason that the numbers were so skewed during the day is because not as many Republicans participated in the Exit polls. They can’t have it both ways.
Kali
Posted by kali on Nov 23, 2004 at 5:13 AM “ Do you in your wildest dreams think Rove or any Repub would be STUPID enough to tamper with the ballots. Could you imagine how much fuel it would give the Keeryites?? Not to mention jail fines and possibly discount the presidential win. I really think this is tin foil hat stuff.”
Do you in your wildest dreams think Rove or any Repub would be STUPID enough to invade Iraq thinking their got WMD’s , Saddam was in bed with Bin Laden , there was nobody on the grassy knoll , would give untendered contracts to Haliburton , think mainstream media is unbias , that Iraq is a safe holiday destination , that the budget blowout will be halfed in 4 years….....that he could win without cheating ......HELLO…..HAIL TO THE KING…YEA RIGHT
Posted by mmiixx of erf on Nov 23, 2004 at 10:03 AM I don’t think it came from the top…. i would hope they learned something from watergate….
Posted by kali on Nov 23, 2004 at 12:11 PM Keep an eye on the progress ,Bev Harris is due to release fresh information today
http://www.blackboxvoting.org/
This woman should get a medal once JFK is president.
Maybe a Nobel Prize ,talk about working selflessly for your country .........how do they say it ......going beyond the call of duty…....kali I think this is so “from the top down” , after 2000 if they wanted secure elections and you had 4 years ,almost unlimited funds , the best computer scientists in the world etc….....
as was once said by another JFK .....We choose to go to the moon. We choose to go to the moon in this decade and do the other things, not because they are easy, but because they are hard, because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win, and the others, too….......and you did in less than 8years .....secure elections are the result of effort not luck .....
Posted by mmiixx of erf on Nov 23, 2004 at 10:28 PM It’s almost 12 pm here, I was hoping there was an update from last week. At least the site hasn’t been hacked again.
Posted by kali on Nov 24, 2004 at 5:01 AM CNN has reported that the GAO (government accountabilty office) will conduct an investigation. Here is an article here at The Common Cause http://www.commonblog.com/story/2004/11/23/135530/40
Posted by kali on Nov 24, 2004 at 5:03 AM Ohio Democrats Offer Support for Recount Effort
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A8580-2004Nov23.html
Posted by mmiixx of erf on Nov 24, 2004 at 5:28 AM The CNN Story on the GAO is now on-line.
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/11/23/election.investigation/index.html
Posted by kali on Nov 24, 2004 at 11:47 AM and for giantsox. and update on the Warren County Lock Down (still no reason about *why*—but they decided to do it well in advance of the election…)
http://news.enquirer.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041116/NEWS01/411160355 5/1056/news01
Posted by kali on Nov 24, 2004 at 11:49 AM This is a great article, thanks Mark.
If there is anyone out there who is still in doubt about how this election was stolen, please go to http://www.votergate.tv and watch or download “Votergate: The Movie”. This is a free 30 documentary about electronic voting machines and how laughably open to corruption they are (and apparently were intended to be).
http://www.votgergate.tv
Posted by DAS on Nov 26, 2004 at 1:35 PM Sorry, I mistyped the URL the second time in the post above. It should be:
http://www.votergate.tv
Posted by DAS on Nov 26, 2004 at 1:37 PM I also am outraged by the bush Skull and Bones theft of this country and the looting of the treasury and the genocide and torture that the Bush family has engaged in for 3 generations. The one thing that is missing is Bush, sr. and his ties to drug running to help with Yale’s Skull and Bones Secret Society posing as a fraternity. It was originally The Illuminati and was banned by several countries because of their aim to create “Constructive Chaos” in society with a view to World Dominion by an elite. Read about Skull and Bones online while there is still time there is quite a bit about Prescott Bush and his help in financing and strongarming other wealthy families to support the rise of Prescott’s “blood brother” hitler who was created by Thule another name for The Illuminati. Prescott also helped with the underground railroad of providing aid to top Nazis to get to South America and some in the US in the confusion with Displaced Persons and discovery of the remainder of the starving and tortured people in the Nazi camps. Prescott was in charge of several corporations that were the Halliburtons of their day providing inferior goods to our soldiers and in a long declassified Franklin Roosevelt Secretary of Defense report on Prescott, his assets were seized by the US government during WWII. Prescott did a lot more for the World Dominion that is the centerpiece of Skull and Bones and what you are seeing with the massacre in Fallujah and the 911 attacks which meant also to destroy the whole of Congress and Flight 93 was the only one shot down because they could hear that the passengers had taken over. Read Iran-Contra and the fact that it was chaired by Sen. Kerry whom I voted for but he was also a member of Skull and Bones which is why he took a dive after promising “No Surrender” Our last 3 and now 4 pResidents AND THEIR CHALLENGERS HAVE ALL BEEN SKULL AND BONES MEMBERS. Skull and Bones is only located at Yale and only accept 15 new members a year so their are only 800 or so living members at any one time. What are the odds that 4 presidents in a row (AND THEIR CHALLENGERS) were members of Skull and Bones. It’s why even Michael Moore is keeping his mouth shut and why the Democratic party only half heartedly agreed to help with recount after people wrote them that the Dem party is finished if they do not do something about this massive fraud. There is evidence that bush, jr. signed off on the 911 attacks and this above all should be investigated in Impeachment Hearings of Bush Junior and the drug smuggling by Bush Senior was massive and in addition to the money it was meant to destabilize society so that they would turn to a savior as bush, jr. is presented to be. And look at the opium production in Afganistan. and that Bush, jr. wanted everyone to be evaluated psychologically so that he can have everyone on drugs while he continues his Skull and Bones campaign of World Dominion. The Wash Post when it was still free wrote in early 2003 about a briefing at the White House IRAQ IS THE TACTICAL PIVOT, SAUDI ARABIA IS THE STRATEGIC PIVOT AND EGYPT IS THE PRIZE - because of the newly discovered gas resources in Egypt and oil will run out in about 7 years and the major corps would not make as much money on wind and solar and water and other natural means of producing energy as is being proved successful in Japan. Their embassy puts out a free magazine and they write about their research and successes with natural energy. Bush puppet of Skull and Bones wants to run a pipeline through Saudi Arabia for the gas and to help the Saudi Royals put down the Resistance of their people since the Royals don’t govern any more than the bush puppets do but only loot the treasury for themselves. We are going to be at war for a long time and America could not afford the 2 or 3 million person army needed to subdue even Iraq much less most of the Middle East so when the economy collapse and their are no jobs people will be willing to work for food and shelter. Skull and Bones members with the exception of a few who have been brave enough to talk about their activities have no more conscience than hitler about killing tens of millions or hundreds of millions of people for the greed of an elite. Prescott also made money off the slave labor at Auschwitz and through his network of powerful and wealthy friends put a stop to FDR’s plan to bomb Auschwitz and the death machine and 400,000 lives would have been saved if FDR could have gotten Congress, some of them Skull and Bones members or the outer circle or afraid of them to veto. Please read about the incredible corruption of the bush family and write your Congresspersons and the media. Thank you.
Posted by Natalie on Nov 26, 2004 at 9:29 PM The problem with conspiracy theories Natalie is that they are incredibly hard to prove. About the internet information any moron can post anything without anyone having to do a fact check. Obviously morons make it on the internet, look I’m here.
Kali,
I consider a security checkpoint to be the line where only authorized personnel are allowed beyond. The shutting down of the polling place to do a count in my mind would be considered a security checkpoint.
Posted by giantsox on Nov 27, 2004 at 7:11 PM Kali,
If you are refering to the Florida dixiecrats(I’ve mainly heard them reffered to as Southern Democrats) the Almanac of American Politics shows there voting trends for Presidents over the past I believe 40 to 50 years is usually republican but I can’t reference the exact page.
It sounds like researchers are trying to find out why Bush got an excessive amount of votes in some of these counties. I don’t see any explanations as more votes than registered voters that could indicate fraud. I know from talking with some of my conservative friends we were just torqued that most celebrities and organizations were essentially calling us stupid for our beliefs. If the democratic party wants to win elections they should try to understand that not everyone agrees with them and not attack them. I realize that the candidates themselves don’t do this (except Dean maybe, jk)
but the people that endorse them do, i.e. Moore, Maynes, Eminem, etc. You wanna talk about party of the elite? If that’s true how come middle American voted Bush?
Posted by giantsox on Nov 27, 2004 at 8:56 PM giantsox.
It is Unprecedented for a polling place to ban/lockout witnesses.
kali
Posted by kali on Nov 28, 2004 at 2:08 AM giantsox
As I said before, I am in Ohio—so I am looking at the anomalies and just scratching my head. How can this be seen as NOT strange? This is not a case of sour grapes, it’s a case of if we don’t take the time and dig deep into what people experienced, and what the numbers are turning up then all of us, republicans and democrats and independents are duped into believing that our voice counts, and that we are actually a part of the voting process. Sorry, but though I’m a bit mathematically challenged, the odds of *all* the “glitches” favoring one candidate over another is pretty darn high. That’s not to say there was some huge conspiracy or that it was orchestrated—personally I think it’s just odd, and needs to be investigated.
The dixicrat comment doesn’t sit with me because it’s only in areas where machines were used that the disparity is quite high. http://electionsquad.org/doesntadd.html
Here is an article against voting machines written by a Republican Computer Specialist—article http://www.chuckherrin.com/hackthevote.htm and FAQ about using voting machines http://www.chuckherrin.com/HackthevoteFAQ.htm
Analysis from Berkely on Florida results http://ucdata.berkeley.edu/new_web/VOTE2004/index.html
From VotersUnite: http://www.votersunite.org/electionproblems.asp?sort=state&sel;...
Kenneth Blackwell
Cincinnati Post Story (remember—a the Post and the Enquirer are conservative leaning papers) http://www.cincypost.com/2004/11/27/ballots112704.htmlFrom the FreePress (please note the Quote from the Conservative Paper Columbus Dispatch that endorsed Bush) http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2004/930
Blackwell Sued over provisional ballot problems http://www.votersunite.org/electionproblems.asp?sort=state&sel;...
And….In Ohio alone these are the things that have occurred with Kenneth Blackwell
September—Blackwell tries to limit press in polling places http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/electionlaw/comment0928.html
Ruling overturned: http://www.fac.org/news.aspx?id=14295&printer;-friendly=...
Provisional Ballot snafu: http://www.wcpo.com/news/2004/local/09/27/ballots_provi…
Challenge snafu (this ended up being in favor of Blackwell, but I’m not sure this link does that) http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2004/11/01/election2004…
Here’s a story in the Columbus Free Press: Document reveals Columbus, Ohio voters waited hours as election officials held back machines http://www.freepress.org/columns/display/3/2004/990
Update to this with Statitical analysis http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2004/91…
Voters given wrong information about provisional ballots http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2004/93…
Other things… (the paper weight provision was overturned because of public pressure—but there were no doubt some that were returned, etc…) http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2004/81…
I also know I read something about the closing/merging of certain precincts prior to the election (because they were going to get electronic machines, which would have “been quicker” but then, they ended up not getting the new machines,) but I do not recall if it was on-line or in the press, I’m still trying to remember where I saw it.
Giantsox…. all I’m saying is this is weird. I want to be sure when we vote, that there aren’t any questions about the vote itself. What’s so hard about printing a paper receipt from an electronic voting machine, having the person who voted look it over for accuracy, and then put it in a sleeve, like a punchcard vote, and put it in a strong box??? Our ATMS do this all the time. Time stamp and machine number is all that needs to “be on” the receipt besides the actual votes, which would NOT be counted unless glitches such as took place in Youngstown (when people selected Kerry, it recorded Bush), and in a Florida Precinct. It could be that the machines were just Not Calibrated, and that though it is a Simple process to do so, that the poll workers didn’t know how, or didn’t want to (since the majority of the reports state that either the poll worker would take them to another machine or would “clear out” the first vote.) Is that fraud? Probably not. But the fact that it wasn’t corrected is worrisome.
I’m not saying anything about your beliefs or convictions—all I am saying is that the American People—ALL party affliliations deserve to believe in the system that they are using.
kali
Posted by kali on Nov 28, 2004 at 2:09 AM Kali -
Now that I have a more clear understanding of what you are saying I whole heartedly agree with you. There is nothing wrong with having a receipt kicked out to the voter to ensure their vote was cast correct. Although this might be a bit of a stretch but I believe some conspiracy theorists will still claim that the vote was cast wrong and complain about the vast right wing conspiracy to steal votes again. I don’t believe either side purposefully did anything to steal actual votes, but all this points to the flaws in our voting system that 2000 should’ve brought to our attention. Now we need to correct these problems, not wait another four years and have a very divisive, fishy smelling election again!
Posted by giantsox on Nov 28, 2004 at 8:09 PM Thanks, Mark, for writing this piece, and getting it out here, weblished. I redrew a red-state, blue-state map to show exit poll results:
http://www.geocities.com/briancady413/RealMapWebPage.htmlI hope these enourage us liberal advocates trying to bring democracy home.
Brian Cady
Posted by Brian Cady on Nov 28, 2004 at 8:45 PM http://okimc.org/newswire.php?story_id=344
Interesting story , how can this keep going with no media coverage .America should phone/email/fax there news providers and threaten to cancel all services from these companies as their in on the fraud if they assist the neocons in stealing this election with no comment on the suspected fraud !!!!!!!!!!!
As the man said “He stole it fair and square!”
Posted by mmiixx of erf on Nov 28, 2004 at 9:24 PM check this link also
http://www.moderateindependent.com/v2i21bico.htmThis would be bad enough alone if it wasn’t for the second part of this reality: Bush Republicans fought, went to court, and even legislated in places like Florida not to only ensure there would be no paper trail for the e-voting, but that doing a recount would be forbidden by law.
When is enough enough
Posted by mmiixx of erf on Nov 28, 2004 at 9:56 PM Many Bush supporters just believe: “we won, you lost, get over it.” This perspective seems justified based on the tabulated vote of 59,729,986 to 56,249,623.
More than half of the total number of votes were tabulated by the Diebold and ES&S voting machines, #1 and #2 suppliers in the country, which are owned by two brothers who have collectively contributed hundreds of thousands to Republicans - none to Democrats. “I am committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president.” - Walden O’Dell, Diebold’s CEO in a fundraising letter to Republicans, Fall 2003 http://www.chuckherrin.com/HackthevoteFAQ.htm#how . Diebold’s VP for voting machine systems development has already been convicted of felonies 23 times for imbedding glitchs into bank system software to embezzle funds. So we got a convicted software embezzler working for a firm committed to one candidate’s election writing software to add up the votes for half the country which cannot be audited.
As an American who believes the rule of Democracy - I don’t think this is something we want to get over.
Posted by Jose on Nov 28, 2004 at 11:28 PM -
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