What a bunch of garbage! As a solid Bush supporter, I find it reprehensible to be calle an idiot or a dunce. I happen to be a college graduate and business professional. I believe that this kind of thinking is why the Democratic party is in a shambles. According to you, no one is entitled to have a position if it doesn’t agree with yours. I am thankful to Fox News to provide fair and balanced news. As a Bible thumping neaderthal, I am proud of my country and of my President. I believe the mandate is based on 3.5 million votes and not 160,000 votes from Ohio. Whether it was 3.5 million or 1 vote, the people chose their leader and I thank God it was George Bush.
Posted by Mark James on Nov 22, 2004 at 1:15 PM
Glad to see that the Democrats learned tolerance from this election.
To defeat an enemy you must first understand him. Since Ms. Douglas understands that all Bush voters are neanderthals, it is clear that she has done all the analysis necessary.
With open-minded and non-judgemental thinking like this, I am certain that democrats will continue to lose elections for many years to come.
(Hint: that was sarcasm)
Posted by Dale Switzer on Nov 22, 2004 at 1:31 PM
Susan,
Great job, keep your party on track here with this and you will lose the next election.
Yes yes.. your country stuff I love it.
Keep it up and lose some more!
Make it easy for us idiots out here to win.
Pure genius!! Damn I can’t believe you lost.
Was it the Right that got into a scandal over facts?
Oh no it was the left…. but keep believing it and someday…. you will lose again!!
Problem is, you can’t separate facts from feelings. Nuance, perception, feelings…
I blame the soft sciences for this weak minded thinking.
I pity your ineptness
Posted by G on Nov 22, 2004 at 1:35 PM
it is sad, so very sad. The Left just tells the country what a bunch of idiots they are, they had a permanent Hate Bush campaign for the past 4 years, they wonder how anyone, anyone can support Bush. The left sucks. You are whining losers. You know nothing about America. You hate America. You wonder why you lost? Because you are filthy amoral scum. Go to canada, get out now, we don’t need you.
Posted by Vin on Nov 22, 2004 at 1:35 PM
What if’s concerning Ohio are ridiculous. The vote is what it is. But if you want to move 135K votes out of Bush’s Ohio vote, what about other changes?
Kerry won PA and 21 electoral votes by LESS than Bush won Ohio’s 20 votes. Turn around less than 120K votes in NH, WI, and MN and Bush picks up another 24 electoral votes. Only 67K votes in OR gives Bush another 7. Out of nearly 120 million votes, less than 300K selectively moved over to Bush would give him another 62 electoral votes, or almost 350!
Posted by Jesse Pipkin on Nov 22, 2004 at 1:40 PM
BBBBBBWWWWWWWAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
Get real dude! 130,000 margin of victory?
NAW it was more like 3,000,000 margin of loss.
It would have been sooooooo easy to pick W off, but the we picked a MAJOR loser, stiff, aristocratic, haughty, with a bs war record and ashamed of his record in the Senate, and his speaking voice? he sounded like a cartoon senator, what was with that? Kerry did not stand a chance. (He would have stood a chance, no he would have wiped the floor with W if he had used the tone of voice in his campaign speeches that he used in his concession speech, same as Gore, his best speech of the campaign was his concession speech, strange that, I don’t understand it.)
Now if the we had nominated Senator Nelson of Florida, it would have been an entirely different story, a true hero, an astronaut, no dubious ‘Nam albatross around his neck, extremely popular in Florida, he would have won a lot of the red states that Kerry lost, he would have won Florida and Ohio, those states love astronauts and W would be a laaaaame duck that we would have to suffer only a month or so more of.
The most important thing to remember these days is that people vote for the person NOT the party, Kerry was very aloof and it killed him. Got to get a more populist candidate next time for us to even have a chance.
Posted by Mr Phlegm on Nov 22, 2004 at 1:40 PM
It is such courageous assessments that give me hope for the future of the Progressive movement in this country.
Posted by aelfheld on Nov 22, 2004 at 1:43 PM
“The Democrats and progressives need to…” keep listening to the advice of writers like this!
At the end of the day Susan can you tell us what the Progressive cause has come to? All of the articles in this mag for the past 3 years have been extolling the gains the “movement” has been making. But now you have lost all 3 branches of the federal gov and the majority of the statehood branches as well.
So do ya think the old lefties, who just got their butts kicked with their socialist babbling ideas, should take a seat and let some new articulate blood come in?
What have you done for the Progressives lately Susan? Just point out a concrete gain or two.
Posted by Fact Check on Nov 22, 2004 at 1:44 PM
Hey Susan, we all know that having writers with three names like Mark Crispin Miller on our side guarantees a loss!
Sheeesh, I quit. I’m going over to the other side. They don’t have any three-named writers, much less a bunch of one—named dweeks like Bono, Cher, Barbra…etc…etc…ad nauseum…
Posted by Mike Shezboday on Nov 22, 2004 at 1:46 PM
Very poorly argued. How about citing one of your
“many documented sources” referenced in “Stage 1.”
What proof can you offer that Fox News viewers are more ignorant of current affairs than viewers of other news sources?
In “Stage 4” you claimed that “a whopping 60 percent supported either gay marriage (25 percent) or civil unions (another 35 percent).”
Said differently - a whopping 75 percent DO NOT support gay marriage. Or how about this - only 25 percent support gay marriage.
Sorry Sue, but this article would probably get a failing grade in any college English course.
Posted by Paul O'Brien on Nov 22, 2004 at 1:48 PM
Hey, you are exactly right. Keep doing what you are doing. Your article summarizes the best strategy for Democrats. Insult the electorate, call the majority of voters stupid, insult the huge number of women who are pro-life, belittle religious faith… Good stuf! Yeah, you guys are going to win the government back in no time. Keep up the good work.
Posted by Solozen on Nov 22, 2004 at 1:55 PM
Wow! Such incisive analysis…there truly is no better source for meaningful and pithy political thought than the Shirelles…
http://www.theshirelles.com/history.html
How can conservatives possibly compete with a “movement” that has both the Shirelles and Barbra on their side?
Posted by mjh on Nov 22, 2004 at 2:09 PM
Stage 7: Lose again, by an even larger margin
Stage 8: Become more shrill
Stage 9: See stage 7
Stage 10: See stage 8
and so on…
Posted by Fat Tony on Nov 22, 2004 at 2:10 PM
Susan, you need to stop studying that red state/blue state map. It’s giving you a false picture.
Go study the county-by-county red/blue map, which is much more revealing. On this map you see that Kerry didn’t win Pennsylvania, but only Philadelphia. He didn’t win Michigan, but only Detroit. Etc.
In fact, the Democrat Party is no longer a national party at all. The only place anybody buys your nonsense anymore is in a handful of urban centers.
Most of the nation heard your message loud and clear, and voted accordingly. You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting.
Posted by Vernon on Nov 22, 2004 at 2:10 PM
Your piece is amusing and representative of some of the unbelievable fantasy tales many Democratic-leaning media have spun since the election. There simply aren’t enough Jerry Falwell types, “Bible banging Neanderthals” (one fact I have never understood is that Democrats champion tolerance and respect of virtually every religion OTHER than Christian evangelicalism) or single issue gay marriage and pro-life social voters in America to elect a president. The Bush victory, solid by any measure, was attributable to a host of factors, none of which is mentioned in your article: (i) personal character and leadership characteristics, (ii) a recovering economy, (iii) a low-tax, strong national defense and anti-terrorism message, (iv) education policy, (v) John Kerry’s waffles on Iraq (after a year and many millions of dollars I am still not sure what his “plan” is or was), and (vi) failure of the Democratic establishment to nominate a more moderate candidate instead of a tired and dovish liberal. It wasn’t a case of believing the Swift Boat Vets over Michael Moore; the American people judged two men and political philosophies and voted accordingly.
Posted by S. on Nov 22, 2004 at 2:18 PM
What part of the 9/11 hearings, the bestseller list for the last six months and extensive news coverage did these people miss?
This was not a legal case tried in the 6th Circuit. Did you not read the Dolfur Report? Have you never bought a used car? The correct repsonse, “Thank God Bush acted when he did. We caught that SOB without a stockpile of WMD.”
“I know not what to think of a republic of 30 million athiests.” John Adams on France. Does that make John Adams a “Neandrthal Bible thumper”? If it does, then count me in.
Posted by Mike Brister on Nov 22, 2004 at 2:21 PM
If you are attempting to parallel Elisabeth Kubler Ross’ work on death and dying and the 5 stages of grief, you have a way to go. The stages are as follows: denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance. You seem to have experienced 4 of them. Try acceptance. Acceptance that you may be wrong. Acceptance that there may be other valid points of view. Acceptance that your way may not be the only way to acheive a common goal. It might open your eyes to a whole new world.
Posted by jules on Nov 22, 2004 at 2:42 PM
Depite the arrogance & obtuseness of your piece, the conclusion is the most revealing & damning part: free speech lost you the election (by the abolition of government-mandated content under the guise of the misnamed “Fairness” Doctrine) given that the voters are too stupid to understand that the Left will deliver them from the pits of ignorance in which they wallow, so if we can get rid of that silly “free speech” stuff, you can once again enlighten the simple folk of this country, just like in the good ol’ days of Walter Cronkite & Eric Sevareid & Huntley & Brinkley. Hey—if you can pull that off, maybe we can even become Belgiumesque so your courts can abolish your opposition when it gets too popular!! Might as well, since we Great Unwashed Proletariat need to be shown the way until we can discover it for ourselves (q.v. that Lenin dude).
Posted by Paul Simpson on Nov 22, 2004 at 2:43 PM
Wow, after reading the responses to this article I am further convinced of the moral depravity of the right. I’ve never seen such a collection of sore winners in my life! You won folks! Go do your gloating amongst yourselves…it’s only polite.
Oh and “S”, maybe somebody should let you know that your guy doesn’t measure up on all those factors you quoted.
“personal character and leadership qualities?” In Bush? that’s amusing…let’s see him blink confusedly ONE more time…
Posted by neil on Nov 22, 2004 at 2:50 PM
Hatred, resentment, arrogance, contempt for and derision of Christianity—“Bible bangers are not the new majority”—lack of vision, calling those who supported Mr. Bush ignorant, etc.: You and everyone else who calls himself or herself a Democrat and/or liberal and/or leftist and/or progessive can say and write these and more until the proverbial cows come home.
In fact, I genuinely encourage you do exactly that.
The effect of such behavior will be to ensure the backseat in American politics for a long time for Democrats and liberals.
So, thanks. And, please, please, please, keep up the good work.
It should help ensure a conservative-and-Republican majority in the Congress, White House and most state governments for at least a generation.
Posted by C.K. Amos on Nov 22, 2004 at 3:03 PM
You tried to steal every vote you could. You had 90% of major media on your side-working for you, in the case of CBS. You had millions of dollars for TV, with practically no restraint on what you said. Youbetrayed blacks and gays with attacks on Mary Cheney, Rice, Powell, etc.
And you lost.
You aren’t smart. You’re problem is you can’t think. Success in your world consists of rote memorization of rigid dogma.
You are unable to change.
Soon you will be gone.
Posted by cris on Nov 22, 2004 at 3:10 PM
“Stage 1: Shock Many of us were barely functional on Wednesday, wondering how could it be that a guy so obviously and patently incompetent and deceptive, as documented by so many sources—and a faith-based zealot to boot—got reelected?”
Funny, many of us were shocked that a guy so obviously and patently incompetent and deceptive, as documented by so many sources-and with an ambulance chaser for a VP candidate could get so many votes
Posted by MJ on Nov 22, 2004 at 3:10 PM
Why don’t you liberals come up with a winning stategy instead of banging on your high chairs and screaming “no fair!” evey time you get your asses whipped at the polls. What a bunch of pussies!
The Left was soundly rejected on November 2nd. Stop crying- the grownups are trying to run a country here.
Posted by B. D. Jones on Nov 22, 2004 at 3:11 PM
Stupid hippie. Always gotta be somebody else’s fault when things don’t go your way, huh? Can’t you just accept the fact that you lost because you, your candidate and your party are all LOSERS!
Yes, YOU lost. Face it. You didn’t try hard enough to win, and you should have because Bush was very beatable this time around. You had a great chance and blew it. But that’s what LOSERS do. Winners win and losers lose and you lost. Do the math.
But nooooo…gotta bitch and whine and complain and play the victim. Well shut the fuck up and tell it to somebody who cares. Tired of hearing you dirtbags yap. Get over it.
Posted by Eat it Hippies on Nov 22, 2004 at 3:12 PM
Democracy is surely a fragile creature. The South lost the right to own fellow humans in the first Civil War. We are now engaged in another civil war, testing whether a nation of underinformed and misinformed citizens can indure. Our Constitution, with its Bill of Rights, is slowly dissolving before our eyes. Fifty-more months of this fake, “compassionate Christian” president, surrounded completely by “YES people” may be more than this democracy can endure. For those on the Right who invite progressives to Canada, this is advice more and more Americans are listening to. The South is unwilling to vote for a Democrat from the North anymore. Yes, the last one was assassinated in Texas 41-years ago on this very day of Nov. 22. If you are young, want access to health care, a reliable pension system, a safer environment and protection for your civil rights, Canadian citizenship may be your best “lifeboat”. Our ship of state has struck two-massive icebergs(Vietnam & Iraq)and has an incompetent captain at the helm. This “Ship of Fools” is sinking. Will there be a lifeboat left for you? Go North young man/woman!
Posted by Mark Cartwright on Nov 22, 2004 at 3:15 PM
YOu’re kidding, right? A clear majority in the popular vote serves you when it is convinent, e.g. 2000 when Gore won the popular vote, but lost to Bush in the electoral vote, whereas in 2004, Bush clearly won both, yet you refuse to see the 3.5 million vote gap in the two canadates? As a Bible thumping neandrathal, and an ignorant Dunce, at least I’m able to come up with real arguements as to why George Bush won. Could it be a return to basic moral values the country was founded on?
When the democratic party sees how the United States votes, maybe they’ll start winning. It wouldn’t help to have a good canadate run either.
Posted by Troy on Nov 22, 2004 at 3:25 PM
awwwwww, diddums gettums widdle wiberal feewings hurrrrt???
Posted by Glenn Bowen on Nov 22, 2004 at 3:31 PM
Mark:
Hmm. I have access to health care (there’s a hospital down the street—I think you mean health insurance). I have a reliable pension system, a clean environment (incredibly cleaner than any third world country), and my civil rights have never been violated. And, yes, I live in America. Couple of other things:
1) I’m sure it’s a typo, but I find it ironic you misspell “endure” in the same sentence you call me and my co-voters misinformed or underinformed.
2) Could you please, just please, give one example of the Bill of Rights “disolving.” That’s right—a fact to support your assertion.
3) JF Kennedy was a taxcutting cold warrior. He’d probably be a Republican or mod Democrat today.
4) Oh, you forgot one thing: if you want to be taxed at twice the rate you are in the U.S., Canada may be the place for you.
Posted by Mike on Nov 22, 2004 at 3:50 PM
Susan, among your many incorrect statements was this, “previous four years and this election emphasize how important media reform is, particularly the reinstatement of the Fairness Doctrine, which the Reagan Administration abolished in 1987.”
As you should remember - if you would bother to take off your intellectual and political blinders is that the proximate cause of the dissoultion of the “Fairness Doctrine” was the decision in Meredith Corp. v. FCC that the doctrine was not mandated by Congress and that the FCC did not need to continue to enforce it. The decision to dissolve the doctrine was made by the FCC, an independent commission, not the Reagan administration.
Posted by Brent McKay on Nov 22, 2004 at 4:05 PM
I wish liberals were less talk and more action. Always jabbering about moving to Canada, Ireland or France. Get off your ass and go!
1. You can pay brutal taxes in Canada (and face crime rates twice the US).
2. If you like sitting on your ass complaining all day then France is your best bet. Mandatory limits on work hours mean more butt time to gripe.
3. Ireland is being taken over by crabby liberal hags. Soon that lovely isle will be as much fun as Belgium or Finland.
4. So go.
Posted by Scott on Nov 22, 2004 at 4:14 PM
Most of you are stating that the article is not good in the way that it attacks the raw “intelligence” of the right in the US. Most if not all of the comments use the same tactics the author of this article just did: personal attacks on who the ones that don’t have the same opinion as you are.
2 examples:
“Stupid hippie.”
“Stop crying- the grownups are trying to run a country here.”
Now if these attitudes are more “grownup” and “intelligent” than the one of the author… I need to go back to school or something like that.
To state my personal opinion on the republican party:
I believe it transforms the USA into a purely theocratical state. I firmly believe that religion and state affairs should not be mixed. Most people I have talked to would vote for Bush because he is a very religious man or because he is against abortion and gay marriages, all of which are religious arguments in a political matter. Why are we so bent on mixing religion and politics when we are also promoting freedom all over the world? One aspect of freedom is freedom of religion. Gay rights and marriages is a strictly religious thing. Allowing gay marriages doesn’t mean the religious institution has to marry people, but those that want to can and also have state-based marriages to allow them civil rights.
Again, in the best “free” country on earth, why wouldn’t people have a right to choose their religious beliefs without penalizing their civil rights?
Posted by Dan on Nov 22, 2004 at 4:24 PM
Scott, where do you get that crime rates are twice that of the US? I was convinced it was the opposite.
Posted by Dan on Nov 22, 2004 at 4:27 PM
Looks to me like you were just handed your butt. I enjoyed the response to your whining by real, and yes, educated people. I proudly live in a red state you know the state that elected W. Go Ohio you make me proud. Here are my stages of non grief, 1) thank heaven that we will not have to look at Longface and his wacked out crazy wife. 2) Gloat, yea I said gloat,3) repeat step 2 over and over and over and over…...This coming from a red-stater with a college degree and my own business. Thanks for trying, and failing to call me stupid.
Posted by Robin4 w on Nov 22, 2004 at 4:42 PM
Paul O’Brien asks….........
“What proof can you offer that Fox News viewers are more ignorant of current affairs than viewers of other news sources?”
What better proof could there be than the level of ignorance displayed in the majority of responses to this piece?
“He that doth not know those things which are of use for him to know, is but an ignorant man, whatever he may know besides.”—Tillotson.
Posted by Stephanee on Nov 22, 2004 at 4:55 PM
Tuck you! (as they say in Fexas).
Posted by mnw on Nov 22, 2004 at 5:00 PM
This essay seems like a blueprint for preaching to the choir. Come on progressives, challenge yourselves! Drop that smug attitude; become “intellectually curious” about the Red counties, and figure out what we have to offer them.
I don’t feel sorry for you for the punishment your writing is taking in the comments section. You certainly had it coming by deciding to name-call the side that happened to win this election by a clear margin.
I voted for Kerry, but understand those who voted for Bush did so for what they believe are the best motives. They believe the war in Iraq is a humanitarian act consistent with recognizable moral values. They believe that the media is aggressively trying to change the culture in America faster than they feel comfortable with. They believe Bush embodies the kind of mindset needed to protect the country from the Islamic jihad that has been declared against all of us, not just “Jesusland.”
The way for Democrats and progressives to regain credibility and trust sufficient to win important elections again is, first, to stop demonizing or mocking those who hold those views. They are not dupes, nor intoxicated by “The Passion,” nor corporate tools. They aren’t nearly as different from you and me as you might think. Many of these people voted for Bill Clinton in the past, and voted for Democrats down the ticket this time (see the splits in Nevada, for example).
They don’t want to see the Democrats be obstructionist; they want alternative ideas. I am convinced that what beat Kerry this time was the fact that few people could parse from all his rhetoric an alternative vision of protecting America, or improving its economy. Why would you expect people on the fence to vote for a candidate who won’t clearly articulate his positions? It doesn’t make a voter a dupe or a neanderthal if they ask that their candidates define where they stand, and what they would do differently, in plain English. Had Kerry done so, I think he could’ve won. Let’s face it, he was a poor candidate, who admittedly got better as the year progressed, but still went into election day having made only a weak case for himself.
So if you want to fight back, sure, you can organize all you want, but first make sure you know what you’re organizing ABOUT, and make sure it’s an agenda that doesn’t insult the intelligence of the voters you need to win over.
Posted by dzzrt Ratt on Nov 22, 2004 at 5:14 PM
I have serious misgivings about the conservative social agenda, but that wasn’t my priority in this election. The terrorists brought the fight to us in spectacular fashion, and I feel strongly that the right thing to do is fight back with all of our power. The President has done this in the kind of bold fashion that few other leaders would have undertaken. We’re now changing the world for the better, and it’s a risky, costly enterprise. It requires a level of fortitude that the other nations of the world—and a large minority of our own citizens and leaders—simply can’t muster. Thank goodness the majority sees and supports the necessity, and realizes that the social issues can be sorted out after the priorities are dealt with.
Posted by John on Nov 22, 2004 at 5:47 PM
Clearly, almost all the negative comments to this artcile were written by the same vitriolic dude using different monikers.
Never drink and post, my man.
Posted by Pontius Pilate on Nov 22, 2004 at 7:01 PM
It seems to me that people are rehashing what they’ve been posting for the past year. The Election is over, and it’s been proven that there is a huge population in the states that prefers willed ignorance to facts. That’s a fact of life now. My suggestion? let all your derision out at these backwards boobs that really are a-scared of them homeysexuals marryin’ and them that think them terrarists is lookin to attack Alabama next you know.
They can win all the elections they want, it doesn’t matter anymore, let them fck the country up so badly that in 20 years time nobody will be able to recognise it. After all the EU is rapidly overtaking the States as the pre-eminent economic superpower…let these idiots reign supreme. They’re just signing their own death warrant.
We still have the culture folks, literature and art and music, the things that make America truly great still belong to the progressives…
Posted by neil on Nov 22, 2004 at 8:02 PM
Mike, it’s Mark:
Hmmm. We are both fortunately in the “better of the two-Americas” espoused by Senator Edwards. The health care, reliable pension system, ect. are great for both of us. My civil rights have never been violated either. Enjoy your non-third world clean environment. The Kyoto Treaty must be really dumb or the U.S.A. would have signed it.
1) How can someone who watched a documentary named “The Endurance” make a hypo? My right index typing finger has been submerged in ice water for 15-min. as appropriate punishment :)>
2) The Bill of Rights has always been under assault. The Patriot Act is a crown jewel. On July 4, 2004 President Bush gave a speech on the capitol steps at Charleston, West Virginia. A young married couple from Texas was arrested and removed from the public audience. Do you know why? Reference to Amendment I for “right of the people peaceably to assemble”.
3) I totally agree about Kennedy-Nixon.
4) Some say taxes. Some say Texas. Some say potatoes. Some say potahtoes. We’ll work the whole thing out…or some of us will say, “God bless the Queen”, while holding a maple leaf.
Posted by Mark Cartwright on Nov 22, 2004 at 8:28 PM
Dear Dan you should consider reading what the framers actually meant when they were talking of freedom of religion. Freedom of religion is not the same as freedom from religion. No serious scholar would deny our founders were profoundly religious men for the most part, especially by todays standards. In fact many of them argued that without religion the Republic would not last. You should look into it. Facinating stuff. You think you lost the election because more than half the electorate is ignorant uninformed bigoted bible thumping morons, mmmmmm seems to me this outlook says a great more about you than it does us.
Posted by Cameron on Nov 22, 2004 at 10:24 PM
Dan, Canada does have a higher crime rate than the US (or so I’ve read on a conservative blog; looked sincere enough, I’ll believe it), but the US has a higher murder, rape, and armed robbery rate. Furthermore, the states within the US that have the most crime and violence are the “get tough, inject’em good” Red states.
Republicans who want to believe that Democrats waged a perfect campaign this year and still lost have been become too drunk with euphoria to think straight. First of all, the Dems had an uncharismatic Massachusetts senator who waged a dismal campaign right up until the final month, when the finally spoke out against Iraq and got a boost from the polls. However, exit polls showed that most voters made up their minds long before the final month, when Kerry was off windsurfing while letting his overemphasized Vietnam credentials be slandered. Second, the 527 effort was big but disorganized. Various special interest groups could identify voters with a specific issue but could not connect the dots from local issues to Kerry (under the tax code, 527’s are unaffiliated which means they can’t campaign for Kerry, not technically. The GOP machine was far more streamlined.) ACORN, for example, had a huge hand in the Florida minimum wage ballot initiative; but that’s it. They campaigned for minimum wage, they got minimum wage. Clearly, overreliance on 527’s was not a good idea.
Step 4 of your article, Ms. Douglas, carries the wrong connotation. Republicans are “questioning” the moral mandate argument because they want their entire agenda to be awarded a mandate, not just gay marriage. Charles Krauthammer already tried his hand in “debunking” this by pulling an Ohio number straight out of his disingenuous ass. He claimed that Bush’s vote totals grew the least in the 11 states with the gay marriage initiative and thus the moral mandate was false, but he completely made up a number saying Bush expanded his Ohio turnout by 1 percent, when it was really 19 percent. Furthermore, exit polls clearly state that the voters whose primar y concern was the economy, Iraq, education, or healthcare, favoured Kerry by huge numbers; the very same areas where Republicans are now trying to say Bush’s policies have been awarded a mandate. Terrorism, character, and gay marriage won the Republicans the election.
Democrats made significant gains at the state level, especially in the West. These and the campaigns of certain Dem senators should be where the DNC and the DLC should be looking to. The Salazar brothers between them took two seats away from Congressional Republicans “despite” being unabashedly pro-gay marriage, pro-choice, and environmentalist, by evoking strong economic populism. Russ Feingold won in a landslide in Wisconsin, a swing state that Kerry just barely managed to carry, “despite” being one of the most strongly liberal senators that voted both against the war and against the PATRIOT act. Kerry’s flip-flopper image clearly cost him much-needed political points.
Also, Democrats who blame the youth for not showing up must realize they can’t just flick them on and off every 2 or 4 or 6 years, whenever they need them at their beck and call. The liberal movement must be like the conservative movement; on, every day of every week of every year. Kerry did nothing whatsoever to court the youth vote, apart from vaguely speculating about the prospect of a draft. Key constituents, especially young, unmarried women, were similarly neglected.
And on a final note… “crabby liberal hags”? What part of the fact that the only age group to go with Kerry was the young vote (18-29) do you not understand? Perhaps you’re living in your Weekly Standard, Free Republic world where you believe all the hype about conservative insurgency in college campuses. (And hopefully not some astounding, roundly rejected pseudo-intellectual garbage along the lines of Howe and Strauss.) First, conservative student leaders and newspapers have been receiving financial aid from foundation donors like the Carnegie Foundation for decades; prior to Howard Dean, the only such national program for liberals was Progressive Majority, I believe. Second, the litmus test to which campus liberalism is being measured against, the heady days of the late 60’s, is a thoroughly stupid one. Bring back the draft, and get about 40,000 more young men killed. Then we’ll see how this generation measures up to those oh-so-radical Boomers. The youth, who have nowhere near the same hangups about gays and abortion that the older generation does, trend Democratic, not Republican.
Posted by Ted on Nov 22, 2004 at 11:29 PM
So, when does the anti-religious backlash really begin? I’ve only been mildly insulted so far for my faith. Come right out and show your disdain.
Posted by waiting on Nov 22, 2004 at 11:31 PM
hmm… somewhere in the midst of my barely organized rant, I forgot to comment on the article. On that, I have to say we’re not going to go anywhere by calling anyone dunces or Neanderthals. The Democrats’ biggest problem is one of image; cosmopolitan elitists and egghead academics sitting on their self-appointed thrones, telling average, hard-working people what to do. Insulting 51% of your country’s population will only reinforce that.
The only part of the article I can say is of value is the emphasis on small, local elections. This is where the “bicoastal elitist” image fails, where elections are mostly about policy. To some extent, you guys’ve done a decent job in that regard. Even Salt Lake City has a Democratic mayor, so clearly the Southwest looks promising. Life could be made very difficult for the Republicans if the fastest growing part of the country switches from deep red to swing. (Don’t let Kerry’s loss of New Mexico fool you; Kerry did better than Gore in 8 of 9 states in that region.)
But anyways, I digress. I can’t blame the Righties for reacting the way they did to an essay that could essentially be boiled down to “you guys are dunces”, but yeah, thinking small, grassroots, is imporant.
Posted by Ted on Nov 22, 2004 at 11:46 PM
Hey Mark James,
don’t make me laugh. Look, people are a bit like computers, you can have a good processor, but pretty bad software. You might as well be a neanderthal, and not just because we disagree with you, but because what you believe in is absurdly moronic. You, and many others like you, are living proof that brain washing actually exists.
By the way your president is a mass murderer.
To all you other conservative freaks. Two wrongs never make a right. Greed is NOT good. Fox news is about as fair and balenced as Joseph Goebbels, and goodness and truth will win in the end, despite people like you, and whether you like it or not.
Real democracy is about freedom and truth, and about protecting people from those who would use their positions of privilage to hurt others. Bush is such a total failure, on every level, except perhaps the propoganda war, the war on truth. Conservatives are a bunch of losers. It’s the losers who have to rig the game. And if you think there has been no criminal misbehaviour in this election then you truly do have your eyes welded shut.
You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time. But you can’t fool all of the people all of the time.
What they never told us was that all you ever have to do is fool some of the people all of the time.
You, the loyal followers of George W. Bush are the people who are fooled all of the time. Once people are out of the womb, especially if they are born somewhere other than America, then anything goes with you people. To me the word ‘conservative’ is now completely interchangeable with the word ‘criminal’. It’s criminals who kill people. It’s criminals who lie.
I love freedom, and democracy, and fairness and truth. Which is why I hate conservatives.
Here’s some homework for you (I wouldn’t expect you to take my word for anything). Look up what happened at Nuremburg in Germany at the end of the second world war. Specifically, look up what certain Germans had done to merit being hanged.
Posted by Max Godwin on Nov 23, 2004 at 3:12 AM
It really blows my mind that so many rabid conservatives are reading “In These Times.” What’s up with that? Don’t you have a million religious radio stations and magazines and stuff to pay attention to? Don’t you have some gay bashing to get back to? Please, please, I’d like to hear the reasonable voice of a non-freakishly vicious republican post to this site. If you wanna talk moral values, let’s talk about the moral values of compassion, caring for the poor & the elderly, sharing of wealth. Wanna talk being “conservative” let’s talk “conserving” our environment, our money, instead of raping our forests & giving our money away to corporations. I know the voice of reason is out there somewhere!!!
Remember, republicans won’t win forever. They never have. Someday all of you people who are posting insane sounding, puffed-up, vicious, prideful things to In These Times now will be the losers. Let’s accept that we have to all live together—there WAS NO MANDATE! This country is split in half—people who hate gay marriage and believe that there were WMD in Iraq and people who dont’ care what gay people do and know that the WMD line was a farce. And that is the way it is.
Posted by Fedup on Nov 23, 2004 at 6:54 AM
Oh, I love it when liberals refuse to understand the reason their candidates aren’t getting elected! Just keep thinking/talking/acting like this, honey. Your party is intentionally relegating itself to a position of such fringe irrelevance that it may never recover. Secede, by all means. Move to Canada/France/Germany. Ah, sometimes the schadenfreude is soooo delicious I feel guilty…NAAHH!
Posted by midwest mama on Nov 23, 2004 at 6:56 AM
This from a rag that employs Salim Muwakkil. And they call the right stupid!
Posted by david bennett on Nov 23, 2004 at 7:03 AM
I agree; we get nowhere by hiding our progressive agenda. May I suggest:
1. Ads showing our progressive control of what “makes America great” (as noted by neil in the posting above, e.g., the arts: More photos of Piss Christ ought to demonstrate to the uncultured what the progressive arts vision looks like. Jane Smiley’s explanation of the “unteachable ignorance” of the Red States should be posted in all airports in all Red States, to help those idiots come to grips with their stupidity. Eminem could be named Progressive Artist of the Year; his lyrics could be sent in book form to all elementary schools in Red States, so that young children could sing his songs to their parents when they get home.
2. The moronic idea that women in other places would prefer freedom to female castration can be refuted by showing pictures of a 10 year-old having her labia cut off; then you can show pictures of her smiling after the wounds have (physically) healed. See, no big deal!
3. The threat of the Bush theocracy can be illustrated by juxtaposing pictures of the little female castration victim with those of the Bush twins in their inaugural gowns. Obviously, there’s no difference in the female subjects of Islamist vs. Christian religion.
4. It’s silly to think that abortion is a big deal. A series of informational videos showing an actual partial-birth abortion should be sent to every P.E. class in every high school in the country. (It would be expensive, but George Soros probably has enough money left to supply the funding.)I suggest making it personal by having a family member of a staff writer at In These Times undergo the actual procedure, not just some nameless woman. Afterwards, there could be an Abortion Celebration in the ITT office. This way, young girls could see that abortion is a rite of passage, not a problem.
5. In a similar vein, Susan Douglas and the male sperm-donor of her choice could make an embryo, then donate it for “research” purposes. This would graphically illustrate that embryonic stem cell research is nothing important. Recently Brad Pitt was on TV explaining that this kind of research was essential; perhaps he and his wife Jennifer Anniston would donate their first embryo for research? Now there’s something to be proud of!
Just a few ideas to help the “progressive” cause…
Very very sincerely,
Julie
Posted by Julie on Nov 23, 2004 at 7:47 AM
In the wake of this election I’ve been hearing a lot of talk of “both coasts,” “either coast,” and so on, suggesting that there are only two coasts in America. Have these people ever seen a map? This geographic ignorance is a prime example of how out of touch with “Middle America” the media are.
Posted by just one question on Nov 23, 2004 at 8:03 AM
Ha Ha, listen to that loser Max Godwin. Keep up the good work, Max. Insulting everyone who disagrees with you is a great way to advance your platform. Do you have any idea how funny it is to us winners to listen to pathetic whiners like you bitch and cry about how you hate conservatives and how you’re convinced we cheated? The time-worn Hitler analogies would be good for a laugh if they weren’t so unoriginal. We know what the Nuremburg Trials were, and your analogy falls flat. Are you suggesting that us evil conservatives will be punished the same way for supporting Bush? You liberals a real tolerant crowd. And let’s see some evidence of “criminal misbehaviour” in the election. Goddammit you are one sad case.
Posted by Randolph on Nov 23, 2004 at 8:17 AM
You people can have your laugh at the expensive of the democratics now. And you can make all the self righteous statements regarding kerry;s flip-flopping, waffling, etc. but the other half of this country will get the last laugh. WAIT AND SEE! No need to explain anything to you, you won’t agreed, anyway. But, remember the word CULT!!!! Remember Hitler!!!! Remember Stalin!!!! Remember your vote in this election when your pocketbook stop running over!
Posted by rdearcl on Nov 23, 2004 at 8:18 AM
Neil, “personal character and leadership characteristics” are a matter of opinion. The past of both men, including the DUI of W, the Vietnam atrocity charges of Kerry and a host of private moments, were the stuff of bloggers and emails circulated throughout the nation and scrutinized in a year long campaign. What many saw and remembered in W was not his admittedly poor performances in the made for television debates or sometimes substandard grammar, but the private moments, times with wounded soldiers, decisiveness when criticized and even ridiculed for his positions, and an unquestioned desire to put America first instead of trying to win a global popularity contest. No President is perfect, mistakes have and will be made, but in the end a majority of Americans made a good choice and saw W as a good man and leader for our nation. I believe that someday, when Bush is remembered by thoughtful historians freed from the hysteria of the Michael Moore types and looking at organized terror as a thing of the past, he will be thought of as one of the upper tier of Presidents, and maybe even a great one.
Posted by S. on Nov 23, 2004 at 8:20 AM
Julie, you are a perfect moron. Ever heard of people like Thoreau? Kerouac? Hemingway? Raymond Carver? how about Jasper Johns? Jackson Pollock? Edward Hopper? Grant Wood? Ever heard of Jazz? how about Folk? a little thing called rock and roll? What made america great was the arts, not it’s politics (which has a checkered history to put it mildly)
see I didn’t realize that by giving a country over to a religious majority (like Iraq) will curtail religious extremism…I guess when freedom is on the march religion hides in fear?
oh, and I forgot that all leftists think having an abortion is a fun way to spend a saturday afternoon.
and I’m not sure if you realize this Julie, but us leftists really want to have factories of permanently pregnant women so we can keep harvesting stem cells for our nefarious plot to rid the world of Alzheimer’s
(maybe you’ve never had somebody taken from you by Alzheimer’s, but I have, and it fcking sucks.) Do you think maybe using a tool that was going to be THROWN IN THE FCKING GARBAGE OTHERWISE might be a good idea?
you’re a perfect twit, an idiot. You’re a waste of human potential.
Posted by n.t. on Nov 23, 2004 at 8:22 AM
S, are you really telling me that the american people voted for one guy cause he was better at photo-ops than the other guy? If so, may god help us all…
listen, a super-intendent can stand in front of his burning building and tell his tenants it’s not on fire all he wants, it doesn’t change the fact that it IS on fire. Bush can keep saying the war on terror is going great all he wants, the fact is it isn’t. Iraq is a quagmire, no WMDs, over 100,000 dead Iraqis and over 1200 dead americans. the other two parts of the axis are a much greater threat (hell North Korea ACTUALLY has nukes, and Iran is closer than Iraq was) but the name of the game there is diplomacy? Why was diplomacy not an option in Iraq? Why did we have to go in alone, and forget the rest of the world, hell even George Sr. at least understood the need for a real coaltion. In history? Bush will go down as one of the biggest bumbling presidents, his claim to fame will be presiding over the “Oil Wars” and being the president that saw the economic power slip from the states to the EU. Great president…I think not.
Posted by neil on Nov 23, 2004 at 8:36 AM
Neil, well written, albeit misguided! Let’s let history judge. I am always amused to read some of these things, and wonder if similar perspectives had prevailed would we have seen these headlines: “FDR’s Lapses Lead to Pearl Harbor Tragedy”, “Chamberlain’s International Appeasement Summit Applauded by World Leaders”, “Reagan’s Call to Tear Down Berlin Wall Offends Russians”, “Normandy Invasion Disaster-Tanks Founder, France Remains in Axis Hands”, “Lincoln’s Arrogant and Self-Righteous Moralism on Slavery Offends Slaveholders.” You get the drift.
Posted by S. on Nov 23, 2004 at 8:59 AM
I do hope Ms. Douglas considers taking a class on statistics. Her assertion that 60% of voters approved either civil unions (35%) or gay marriage (25%)is boneheaded. If 65% of the respondents said no to civil unions, then 38% of that 65% would have had to say yes to gay marriage in order to reach the 60% approval rating Douglas touts. I realize there are probably a few folks out there who would be pro- gay marriage while anti-civil union for nuanced legal reasons; but the vast majority who say no to civil unions are not conversely cheering on gay marriage.
As for her assertion that 55% of people support keeping abortion legal, the internals of that fact reveal that the majority also support significant parameters for legal abortions, a concept that is anathema to the liberal establishment.
I find it interesting that even as Ms. Douglas excoriates the majority for retaining President Bush, she touts majority thinking to support her positions on gay unions/marriage and abortion. Now, Susan, you can’t have it both ways: either the majority of voters are all a bunch of boobs or we are all enlightened neolibs!
Posted by M Stolz on Nov 23, 2004 at 9:04 AM
okay, then just prove to me how killing over 100,000 iraqis is going to make them like America more and not create more terrorists?That’s just flawed logic.
And the fact remains, there was no justifiable reason to go to war in Iraq, there just wasn’t. You can say now that regime change was the reason, but Rumsfeld himself said early on in the debate that it wasn’t about regime change.
(p.s. that one about Pearl Harbour probably should’ve been a real headline :)
Posted by neil on Nov 23, 2004 at 9:08 AM
Just so y’all know where I stand: I’m an Independent who probably leans Libertarian and Green Party in equal amounts, I voted for Kerry because I think that Bush’s foreign, domestic, and environmental policies are causing much more harm than good - in both America and in the world of which we are a part, and I’m a medical student in naturopathic medical school because I want to spend my life doing things that can really improve life for all of us. I’m not sure why so many of my fellow Americans spend so much time arguing about whether Democrats or Republicans are right when there are so many real problems to solve in the world that need focus and dedicated attention. (What about a constitutional amendment making it illegal for children to starve to death in the same city where we are paying our elected public servants outrageous retirement benefits?) Why don’t both parties stop trying to figure out “what it takes to win” and just start working towards “what it takes to make a better world”? It seems to me that if that is what our political leaders are really doing, then we will all be winners all of the time, regardless of who is in office. And, for a change, we might have some really appealing candidates running for public office.
Posted by Tiffany Froehlich on Nov 23, 2004 at 9:11 AM
I know I might as well be saying this to a brick wall but we didn’t go over there and kill 100,000 innocent Iraqis. Even your candidate agreed there was intelligence supporting the decision, and although I know I will be labeled an idiot, I still believe we may never know the whole truth regarding Saddam’s arsenal and intentions. We do know that he was one of the few, if not the only leaders to have actually used WMD’s, on his own people, and that he defied numerous UN resolutions. Do you trust him? War results in innocent casualties, and if your test is that there can’t be any, you are naive. I don’t claim that all Iraqis love us or that the war has gone exactly as planned, although certainly there is much more “good news” than is reported. But when Iraq utimately emerges as a more moderate and democratic state after a period of normal instability after change of a 30 year regime, and North Korea and Iran think twice, I think history will not dismiss it as an “oil war.”
Posted by S. on Nov 23, 2004 at 9:26 AM
Posted by dzzrt Ratt on November 22, 2004 at 7:14 PM
___________
Nice post.
Posted by anon on Nov 23, 2004 at 9:38 AM
S,
There have been countless bloody dictators in the world that America has turned a blind eye to. In fact the current situation in Darfur and Bush’s inaction further erodes his credibility as an leader that seeks to better the world. This is an oil war and everybody knows it, any other justification is just that, a justification. The truly disheartening part is that he is couching his actions under benevolent auspices of ridding the world of evil (evil, funny idea that, a large part of the world would call America evil..that’s the problem with moral absolutism, it leads people to think they are right and everybody else is wrong). To simply say “aren’t you glad Saddam is not in power anymore” is not enough.
Posted by neil on Nov 23, 2004 at 10:03 AM
” After all the EU is rapidly overtaking the States as the pre-eminent economic superpower…” Posted by neil on November 22, 2004 at 10:02 PM
I guess neil missed the EU report last week stating the the EU’s long-term economic prospect for growth is less than 1%.
———
threads like this always degrade into Iraq and abortion.
I have several relatives and personal friends in Iraq right now. Marines, airmen and soldiers. My nephew is an electricians wiring houses for the first time. He works with a Corps of Engineers team that’s installing plumbing. For the first time.
A friend in Fallujah tells me how Iraqis left thank you notes for the liberation of their city from the Sharia terrorists.
Applications for marriage are up dramatically in Iraq.
These reports go on and on—stories of thankfulness, hope. If all you watch are TV news, you are not getting the full story. But at least it feeds your anger and hatred. Gets you worked up into a foaming lather. Ready to scream.
The funny thing about liberals who constantly screech about Bush being Hitler is that they appear just like the creming crowds in Triumph of the Will.
Posted by Vernon on Nov 23, 2004 at 11:00 AM
Hey Vernon,
this is where I got the idea that the EU is on the rise
http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2004/11/15/europe/index.html
btw - Sharia terrorists? I hadn’t heard that term before, Islamic Holy Court Warriors? Or was that a typo?
Posted by neil on Nov 23, 2004 at 11:15 AM
Hhmmm. Interesting how it only takes a “moron” to elicit a truly hysterical rant from a girlie-man. (Does “n.t.” stand for “no testosterone”?)
I don’t have time to respond to all of your ...ummm…issues as I just got back from a cruise and I need to unpack. However, let me say that that it is the people of this country (not the “arts”) that make it great. It’s the firefighters, the mothers, the meter readers, the cowboys, the carpenters, the ministers, the soldiers, the singers, the clerks at Walmart, the kids at McDonald’s, the executives, the entrepreneurs, etc. To particularize: As long as you progressive elitists think that Jack Kerouac is “greater” than Pat Tillman, you will keep losing elections.
Finally, I may be a twit but I’m a twit with a Ph.D. and I, unlike you, am soooo happy!
Even more sincerely than before,
Julie
Posted by Julie on Nov 23, 2004 at 11:19 AM
Julie,
so smug aren’t you? One little problem with your argument though:
It’s the firefighters, the mothers, the meter readers, the cowboys, the carpenters, the ministers, the soldiers, the singers, the clerks at Walmart, the kids at McDonald’s, the executives, the entrepreneurs, etc.
ummm…if what makes your country truly special is that it is populated by people, then you’re in for some rough times.
Posted by n.t. on Nov 23, 2004 at 11:29 AM
What is with all the ignorant Republicans leaving comments? Isn’t this a liberal news media? I have a feeling that Billy Graham told them all to log on to In These Times website and leave their conservative mark on the comments section, for the sake of Jesus Christ. It’s funny how they accuse democrats of putting beliefs ahead of facts in the election, when all of their votes were cast based on who “believed” in the same God as them.
Posted by Edgar Frog on Nov 23, 2004 at 11:56 AM
Amen Brother Edgar! I guess we could do the same on Conservative websites, but I hear reading those pages is injurious to your mental well-being :)
Posted by lefty canuck on Nov 23, 2004 at 12:02 PM
Randolph,
I’m not insulting everyone who disagrees with me, just conservatives. The second you say something interesting or truthful, we can have a conversation.
Look, if you support George W. Bush then you’ve already taken yourself out of the realm of informed debate.
My rant was about more than the presidential election. It was about the take over of this country by the extreme right wing. The comparisons to the Nazi’s do not have to be original to be true, and if the Nuremberg rules were applied to Bush he would be hanged, it’s as simple as that.
Yeah, write back and tell me what a loser I am, while you support a mass murderer.
Seventeen thousand civillians are dead now because of Bush and his followers (and that’s just a count of those deaths reported in the media). That, for those of you who become number blind at times like these, is more than five world trade centers.
You may dispute my exact figures, but you know a lot of people have been killed in Iraq. On the other hand, if you believe this was a bloodless war then you probably also still believe in Santa Claus.
The point is, one Iraqi illigally killed is too much. Iraq was not a direct, or even an indirect, threat to us. There were no links with Al Queda, in fact Saddam and Bin Laden were sworn enemies. This is a matter of public record.
The reason we democrats keep repeating this stuff is in the hope that the not too badly indoctrinated conservatives around us will eventually wake up and smell the coffee. The unprovoced invasion of another country is wrong, it always has been and always will be. And for Bush to let the real bad guy, Bin Laden, get away was inexcusable.
I’m sorry, but in voting for George W. Bush you’ve labelled yourself an imbecile. Either that or you simply support the murder of other people for no good reason.
Listen, in the long run nature will simply deselect you guys. Civilisation has been progressing for the last four thousand years, and despite occasional set backs, things carry on getting better and more coherent. People who in any way support this are called progressives. People who in anyway resist this are called conservatives. Nature will eventually deselect you, assumming you don’t get to blow up the whole planet first.
So call me all the names you like, to be a conservative is to be an anti-human, because it is human to grow, and nurture, and co-operate with other human beings. It is human to show empathy and understanding. It is human to take responsibility for your own well being and the well being of those around you. There is no conflict there, except the one imagined by insecure conservatives.
I call you guys morons, not because I want to insult you, but because I truly believe it to be the case. Stupid is as stupid does. I don’t care how many of you have been to college. You can’t vote for a man like George W. Bush and lay any claim to being intelligent. Either that or you are all sociopaths, who don’t even care about your own well being, not to mention that of others. I don’t know, I really don’t. Evil, or stupid, I must admit I cannot make any other sense of your positions.
Goodness will win in the end. And if that worries you then keep on voting for George. When that man starts being able to string a sentance together, or stops invading other countries, then maybe I will become a little more moderate in my views. Until then, conservatives everywhere who voted for Bush deserve contempt and distrust.
Stop invading other countries. Start catching real terrorists. Stop running up astounding deficits. Stop planning to impose your values on the rest of us. Then, and only then will you have the whole of this country behind you.
Posted by Max Godwin on Nov 23, 2004 at 12:04 PM
I wonder if any of these Republicans and Bush supporters have ever step foot out of this country and visited another country, and experienced another culture? The problem with most Americans, particularly the right-wing conservatives, is their belief that America is the greatest country in the world and Christianity is the greatest religion in the world and anybody who is not an American or a Christian is weak, or wrong, or evil, or whatever. Military and financial power aside, if we’re talking merely about “quality of living”, the United States is “okay”. it’s not the worst country. It’s not the best country. Same goes with Christianity. It is just one religion out of many, none being better or more correct than the others. People in other countries get along just fine, people with other religions get along just fine. And nobody outside of America would agree that the US is the best country in the world. In fact, if you take the population of Earth as a whole, there would be far more people in the world who DON’T think the USA is the best country than the number of people who do. Usually, if you’ve experienced another country or culture, you realize that this country is just a piece of a jigsaw puzzle known as Earth. No better or more important than any other piece. It’s when you start imposing your thoughts and beliefs and culture on other people that problems arise. It’s what is happening in Israel and Palestine. It’s what is happening in Sudan. It’s what we are doing in Iraq. And it’s what will eventually cause another civil war here in the USA. I’m sure any conservative who reads this will tell me to “go to Canada”.....which will prove that they just don’t get it.
Posted by Edgar Frog on Nov 23, 2004 at 12:13 PM
Good call, Max
Posted by E.F. on Nov 23, 2004 at 12:18 PM
Edgar,
I totally agree with you. Funny thing about these last two elections, in areas where there are high concentrations of people (like cities, which also generally are more multicultural) the people voted everwhelmingly Democrat. I think that says alot about the state of affairs. Fortress America will be your downfall, the world isn’t “us vs them” or at least it shouldn’t be.
Posted by lefty canuck on Nov 23, 2004 at 12:23 PM
You’re keeping me in stitches, Max. I think my favorite theory of yours is that Bush would be executed if he was tried at Nuremburg. Explain, please. Max, people like you are entirely incapable of learning because you refuse to acknowledge that people who disagree with you might have good reasons. You’re close-minded and you’re ignorant if you think anyone who voted for George Bush is stupid.
As for Lefty Canuck, the following statement speaks volumes about your elitism: “Funny thing about these last two elections, in areas where there are high concentrations of people (like cities, which also generally are more multicultural) the people voted everwhelmingly Democrat. I think that says alot about the state of affairs.” Obviously you think people who don’t live in big cities are capable of casting an educated vote. Instead, you seem to suggest, they only vote according their prejudices.
Edgar Frog: what is your point, other than to congratulate yourself for being so “enlightened?” Is there something wrong with never having left your country? Not everybody can afford to. Is there something wrong with thinking that your country is the best in the world? I would argue that any country whose citizens don’t think is the greatest in probably in a lot worse shape than one with nationalistic citizens. I’ve been to several other countries, every one of which I loved, but each confirmed my opinion that the United States is the greatest. So some foreignors may hate us—I don’t give a damn. I don’t know the statistics but I’m guessing that more people emigrate to the U.S. than any other country.
Here’s some advice all of you disgruntled lefties: accept the fact that you lost. Consider that there may be a good reason most of the people in this country disagree with you. Also, keep in mind that the same polls that said most Bush-supporters voted on “morals” are the same polls that showed Kerry winning in a landslide.
Posted by Randolph on Nov 23, 2004 at 12:50 PM
Randolph,
what I was suggesting is that when people live in close proximity you see alot less of the NIMBY mentality, which alas is the same mentality that thinks all arabs are the same. Osama, Saddam, whatever…you know, conservative thinking…
Posted by lefty canuck on Nov 23, 2004 at 12:56 PM
Randolph, most of the people in this country DON’T disagree with us. Only three million more people voted for Bush than Kerry, give or take. That’s not a huge majority. That’s not “most” of the country. Keep in mind, there was a time and place when “most” of the country supported slavery and “most” of the country supported burning witches at the stake. The intelligent always defeat the ignorant in the long run. History, incidentally, always remembers the ones who fought back, the ones who stood up for what was right, when “most” of the country was wrong, like abolitionists, for instance. Whether or not Bush has the support of “most” of the country is not what matters. What matters is that this country has a long history of the few defeating the many, and a long history of “most” of the country being wrong in their beliefs. Not to mention that if the founders of this country hadn’t questioned authority and government, we’d all be under British rule. Funny how questioning the government is considered un-American, when America was founded by people who questioned government.
Posted by Edgar Frog on Nov 23, 2004 at 1:06 PM
Edgar:
First off, more than half is most of the country. How do you define “most?” Secondly, I didn’t say being in the majority is always being in the right, nor did I say there was anything wrong with questioning the government. What I’m saying is that people like you, Godwin, the author of this article, and the Lefty Canuck should at least entertain that there are valid reasons for voting for Bush instead of writing off people who voted differently from you as stupid, inferior, evil, etc.
Since you don’t seem to believe in democracy (“Whether or not Bush has the support of ‘most’ of the country is not what matters. What matters is that this country has…a long history of ‘most’ of the country being wrong in their beliefs.”), I don’t know how we’re going to find any common ground. That’s fine, all I’m asking is that you respect viewpoints that conflict with your own.
Posted by Randolph on Nov 23, 2004 at 1:47 PM
And vice versa.
Posted by E.F. on Nov 23, 2004 at 2:01 PM
No Randolph, we are laughing at you, make no mistake.
Q. What’s the difference between George W. Bush and Adolf Hitler?
A. Adolf Hitler didn’t try to dodge the draft.
Q. What’s the difference between George W. Bush and Adolf Hitler?
A. Adolf Hitler had his country behind him.
Q. What’s the difference between George W. Bush and Adolf Hitler?
A. Nothing.
As for the stupidity of conservatives, let me once again illustrate my point with a previously mentioned metaphor. Human beings are a bit like computers, they can have good processors but bad software, or they can have average processors but excellent software. In this comparison the ‘processor’ is your genetic intelligence, that which you are born with, and ‘software’ is how well you’ve been taught the think, how well you use your brain.
So, no matter how good your processors are, when it comes to social issues conservatives have bad software.
It is in this sense I call you stupid.
Posted by Max Godwin on Nov 23, 2004 at 2:04 PM
Neil, take a chill pill. Bush isn’t just attacking dictators without rhyme or reason. Remember it was your sacred UN that sanctioned Iraq and passed countless resolutions against Saddam. Was John Kerry wrong when he said that the world is better off without Saddam in power? And what exactly is an “oil war”? Did I miss our nationalization or confiscation of Iraqi oil? I am so tired of the Halliburton conspiracy theories and “big companies are so bad….....wahhhh” whines. And finally, and this is what truly confuses me…..is that libs often say that there are no moral absolutes…....as, of course, a moral absolute.
Posted by S. on Nov 23, 2004 at 2:55 PM
Max, the persistent attacks by some on evangelical Christians and other conservatives as ignorant and irrational are disappointing. Whether you like it or not, Christianity and Judeo-Christian concepts underlie much of our law and Christian adherents founded many of our nation’s leading institutions and have served with distinction. The notion that private morality cannot influence law and public policy is absurd. Why do we have murder or securities laws? Because we collectively agree that the wrongful taking of innocent life is morally wrong and uncivilized, and to cheat others is also wrong. Reasonable, and intellgent, minds can differ on other issues, such as abortion rights, euthanasia, gay rights, stem cell research and other “social issues.” I believe most Americans, even the highly religious, are centrists and find shades of gray on many of them. When the left realizes and accepts that and nominates candidates who share that view, instead of calling people who disagree with them names, maybe there will be a few more blue states.
Posted by S. on Nov 23, 2004 at 3:11 PM
Susan,
Take a chill pill! I am pro-choice, do not attend church, have never thumped a bible, and voted against the marriage amendment. I am also Republican and voted for Bush. You can’t honestly think that anyone who voted for Bush is just a clone of any other Bush voter. We are certainly smart enough to know when we read something from a mean spirited, condescending sore loser. Your arrogance is tiresome and self defeating.
On another note, the article is poorly written. Name calling and whining does not equate with facts and figures. Take a journalism course and learn how to keep to the point without all the embellishments. Insulting the very people that need to be won over to your point of view is childish and ineffective.
Bush won because he was the better candidate.
Posted by patricia forrest on Nov 23, 2004 at 3:16 PM
Better at what? Alienating us from the rest of the world, commiting war crimes that oppose the Geneva Conventions, mispronouncing “nuclear”, drooling during debates, occupying other countries to avenge his daddy, helping the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, sending thousands of American soldiers to die so that he and his buddies can secure all the oil fortune in the world, or all of the above? If so, then yeah, I guess he was the better candidate.
Posted by Edgar Frog on Nov 23, 2004 at 4:17 PM
I guess you have already decided to lose the next election.
As a Christian who voted for Kerry, and a Democrat, I am highly offended by your anti-Christian tone and I am sure that if you keep it up you will lose the next election too.
I am one of those who warned the Left, over and over again, over the past two decades, to cut out the anti-Christian rhetoric. Nobody listened, it seems.
The phrase “Bible-thumping” is just one you should delete from your vocabulary for good. It offends me because I love the Bible. If those who pretend to believe in it would actually read it they would come to vote with the Left on many issues (not abortion).
As for “Jesusland” it is an insult to those of us who love Jesus and vote Democratic. I guess now you have decided to alienate us also and have left, on the left, just a few diehard atheist-agnostic-humanists. I am sorry you have made that choice. It is a good way to lose every election down the line.
Posted by Hugh on Nov 23, 2004 at 4:21 PM
As an atheist, I find it hard to accept anybody as “intelligent” who believes in an adult version of Santa Claus and makes political decisions based on those beliefs.
Posted by Edgar Frog on Nov 23, 2004 at 4:27 PM
But I would use the word “ignorant” when describing somebody who believes that. Not necessarily “stupid”. There’s a difference. Ignorant is believeing in God in general. Stupid is making political decisions based on that belief instead of based on what’s best for the whole of humanity.
Posted by Edgar Frog on Nov 23, 2004 at 4:29 PM
Evangelicals fell for the single issue bait and the manufactured image of someone who may actually be sincere in his faith, but horribly misguided in his theology. A living Christian faith demands rigorous examination of daily ethical issues in the context of Christ’s clear and straightforward teaching. Church, faith, morality, truth, values and other such deep words have been co-opted and corrupted by highly motivated, amoral, ruthless people, devoted to exactly the things Christ preached against.
“The Jesus Factor”, as PBS called it, suggested that America ached for certainty. Any certainty. Fundamentalist evangelicalism supplied it. God help America…
Posted by gdpawel on Nov 23, 2004 at 4:33 PM
Susan:
I understand your grief. However, putting others down and being incredibly condescending is NOT the way to go.
This country is incredibly polarized and needs calm reasoned discussions of our differences and we all need to treat others with respect. I work with a very intelligent lady who cannot comprehend how I could have been a Kerry voter - just as I could not understand how she could be for Bush. We have different world views, but still respect and like each other..
Posted by Allen on Nov 23, 2004 at 4:50 PM
I simply cannot leave this discussion without enlightening the so called intelligent republicans who claim Canada has “outrageous” taxes and a crime rate twice that of the U.S.
For the U.S. .............................
Property crimes - 16,300 per 100,000 population
Violent crimes(which for some reason does not including murder) - 2,260 per 100,000 population
personal federal income tax rates..lowest - 25%, highest - 39%
For Canada…................................
Property crimes - 4,121 per 100,000 population
Violent crimes(including murder) - 963 per 100,000 population(yes, that’s NINE HUNDRED sixty three)
Personal federal income tax rates..lowest - 17%, highest - 31%
From where I’m sitting it looks like the U.S. is witout a doubt the more outrageous of the two.
Posted by Stephanee on Nov 23, 2004 at 4:54 PM
Edgar, for you to accuse anyone else of ignorance is laughable. Take a look at what you’ve posted. The only thing more hypocritical would be for you to accuse people of being intolerant.
Posted by Randolph on Nov 23, 2004 at 4:57 PM
I consider “intolerant” to be bending laws to suit your religious beliefs, and making what you don’t believe in illegal, ie. what the right-wingers are doing with gays and abortion. Don’t use the word intolerant against me when you support the most intolerant leader that the most intolerant country whose majority of citizens believe in the most intolerant religion has ever had. If a Democrat was president, we would not make going to church illegal or praying illegal. It’s intolerance that liberals are trying to fight.
Posted by Edgar Frog on Nov 23, 2004 at 5:13 PM
Edgar, your intolerant. Prime example: “I find it hard to accept anybody as ‘intelligent’ who believes in an adult version of Santa Claus.” Bush is the most intolerant president we’ve ever had? How do you know how personally tolerant he or any other president is/was? Most intolerant country? Try Cuba, the Sudan, Libya, and Iran for starters. Most intolerant religion? I would have to cast one vote for radical Islam. As far as I know there’s no Christian counterpart to Al Quaeda, Hamas, and Hezbollah going around the world killing “infidels.” I’ve never heard of any Christian extremist group hijacking airplanes and flying them into buildings for the sole purpose of killing civilians. If you reply that the American military is simply a Christian version of these terrorist organizations then you’re out of your mind.
Posted by Randolph on Nov 23, 2004 at 5:55 PM
We will see how everyone feels when a 57 Trillion dollar accumulated debt comes home to roost.
The ONLY reason why GW Bush is still President is because Osama Bin Laden staged a successful attack on America under his watch, and Bush has a lot of highly paid people who successfully turned him into Gary Cooper in the aftermath of this disaster.
And remember, everything Bush does is somehow tied into commercial petroleum interests
Also, we didn’t start the fire. Rush Limbaugh gets that honor. “It’s Clintons Fault” should be etched onto his tomb.
Posted by Steve on Nov 23, 2004 at 6:11 PM
To clarify, I don’t agree with the agressive comments on intelligence that the author portrayed in her article… I simply wanted to say that alot of “right” people are saying the same about “left” people in their comments. Not to say oh since the right does it, its ok for the left to do it.
I do believe that when we talk about “jesusland” we do talk about religious fundamentalists. Now we could enter a debate on the definition of fundamentalism… but I won’t.
The difference between christian extremists (which is different from fundamentalist) and islamic extremism (which includes a rather small proportion of islamic believers as with christian extremists) is that the christians actually are in positions of power in our global economy, if not to say that they rule the world economy, not directly trough religion but close. Christians have to maintain an image. Islmamic people do not. Their followers, their endoctrined people for the most part do not have a TV, and it easy to create hate from economic and social situations happening all over the world. Christian extremists have killed. Assassinations have been perpetrated trough the ages or dicatures or genocides under the rules of chritian extremists. Example: Guatemala. They do a good job at maintaining their image…
On another note, why are we spending ALL our time debating about abortion and gay marriages (or shall we say rights?) when more than 2 billion people in the world live in extreme poverty (note: in 1999, Earth reached a population of 6 billion). And in case most of you don’t know what extreme poverty means: not having enough to eat and drink everyday to develop properly as a human in the US or Canada or western Europe could. Thats rougly 1/3 of the population on this planet. Alot of people in the US suffer from this also… This should be given center stage instead of being relinquished to the background of the “I don’t want to hear about that again!” news column.
Posted by Dan on Nov 23, 2004 at 7:34 PM
I have a few things to say.
First, I am not a Bush supporter but please stop comparisons between Bush and Hitler for the sake of decency.
Second, these comments need to change. Try to recognize that there are many intelligent in every quadrant of the political spectrum. I am a liberal and one of my friends is a conservative and we respect and understand each others’ views even though we disagree with them.
To have a truly intellectual debate, everyone here needs to respect everyone else as a human being and attempt to understand their views, even if you disagree.
“The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function.” - F. Scott Fitzgerald
Posted by Tim on Nov 23, 2004 at 7:45 PM
Hugh,
A brief meditation on the phrase ‘Bible-Thumper’. I think it’s a useful phrase because it describes people who try to push thier private beliefs down the throat of the public. It does not refer to real Christians. A ‘Bible-Thumper’ is usually holier-than-thou, arrogant and dogmatic. Again, as far as I know none of these are real Christian traits. The Christian ethic is a wonderful one, and in my humble opinion the religious right are not really Christians. They give it a lot of lip service, but then support war and destruction.
So, we need the phrase ‘Bible-Thumper’ so we can distinguish between real Christians, who keep it to themselves and just try to live a good life, and right-wing extremists who want their beliefs to dominate everyone elses.
Posted by Max Godwin on Nov 23, 2004 at 9:31 PM
Can this thread be maintained until Nov. 2, 2008? This is a very good discussion. I’ve learned from it. When we just listen to those who say what we want to hear, there isn’t much to learn. While this is a progressive site, the input from conservatives and middle-of-the-roaders adds an opportunity for all of us to understand(not always agree)each other. I’m a progressive liberal and thank God everyday I have this belief as an option. Surely, conservatives feel likewise. I fear that our nation is moving away from our Bill of Rights and is dangerously flirting with a type of mutated theocracy. For the conservatives who tell us to hit the road to Canada or wherever, consider that none of the posters on this site are dumb. We would not be posting if we didn’t care. For some educated, caring Americans to begin losing faith in their own country is profound. Think about what it means to each of you. “Don’t let the door hit you on the way out” may sound real macho, but is the country better off for it? Imagine a country left with only people who agree with you about everything…
Posted by Mark Cartwright on Nov 23, 2004 at 9:54 PM
Tim
the comparison between Hitler and Bush is an accurate one, and not just a metaphor. In terms of strict international law what George W. Bush did to Iraq was no different to what Saddam did to Kuwait, or what Hitler did to Poland.
So do not talk to me about decency.
I also agree strongly with your F. Scott Fitzgerald quote. But I would add that there is no point in holding opposing views in your head unless at some point or other you are able to come to a conclusion. The greatest destroyer of intelligence is polarized thinking. But to never come to conclusions, to never put your feet on solid ground is itself an extreme position. Some shades of grey are very nearly black, and some are very nearly white. Never mistake passion for dogma.
Posted by Max Godwin on Nov 23, 2004 at 10:03 PM
To the person who said “Bible-thumper” is a legitimate, unbiased phrase: You are only proving that you still don’t get it.
I do not know who the current Feminist icon is, maybe there isn’t one, but I remember the day when it was Betty Friedan (probably nobody under the age of 60 has even heard of her). Suppose I called all feminists “Friedan-thumpers.” Would that make them feel good?
Suppose I called all Muslims “Koran-thumpers.” Would that make them feel good about me or my message?
Suppose I called all Jews “Moses-thumpers”? I suppose they would respect me for that.
I am really surprised that you still don’t get it. And if you don’t, I am not going to waste my breath. Just keep losing elections. Maybe even I will vote Republican for the first time in my life.
Posted by Hugh on Nov 23, 2004 at 11:08 PM
Hugh
If you are thinking of voting Republican then it is you who has lost it.
I specifically defined the phrase ‘Bible-Thumper’. Did you even read what I wrote? I personally do not think that people are referring to anything other than religeous extremists when they use this phrase. You must know the sort of thing I mean, people who would merrily preach all day about how much of a sinner you are.
I think there is space in the English language for at least one derogatory term that describes these fundamentalists. I do not think it refers to Christians in general, and is a pretty harmless use of words in any case.
By saying that you are thinking of voting Republican because of this you are basically saying that you find this phrase more offensive than the ongoing slaughter of Iraqi civilians.
What sort of Christian are you?
Posted by Max Godwin on Nov 24, 2004 at 12:53 AM
One more thing, to Mark Cartwright.
Having
“a country left with only people who agree with you about everything”
is unfortunately most right-wing extremist’s wet dream.
A lot of people who say they are conservatives are not really and would actually help you out if you were in trouble. They are decent people in other words who have been duped. The remaining hardliners are in the minority and wouldn’t be a problem if it weren’t for their complete domination of the media, television in particular.
Most of the bullshit that comes out of our screens is a lot more subtle than Fox but constantly supports an underlying right-wing message.
Thinking takes energy and perhaps understandably most people rely on the media to hand them their opinions pretty much fully formed. At the very least they look for convenient slogans which they can use as substitues for a real opinion.
The right-wing media is happy to oblige.
This is why it is so hard to talk constructively with a hardline conservative. Most of them are just regurgitating slogans. They don’t know what they’re are talking about. This is also why when you confront them with the facts they studiously look the other way. It’s because they don’t actually have any answers, they only have slogans and sound-bites.
I have pretty much given up trying to have real conversations with these people. If you say something to them which they haven’t ever heard on the telly their automatic assumption is that you’re making it all up.
I pity them really, they have no idea I imagine what it is to think a free thought. We are the fly in their ointment. We are living reminders to them that not every one has drunk the Koolaid.
Posted by Max Godwin on Nov 24, 2004 at 12:56 AM
Neil:
This so-called “culture” you wax rhapsodic about - the “music”, the “art”, the “literature” - is a huge window into what ails America. It really is what the islamics hate about us, and why they want to kill all of us - including you nancy-boy “artists” and culturalists in the “Blue States”. They don’t care which Americans they kill and how many - the more the better. This is what the election of 2004 was all about - the islamic threat to the US, and, for your information, it’s to the death.
I have news for you, sonny, without the Red States and Counties, the South in particular, you would have no freedom whatsoever. Where do you think the majority of US service personnel come from and live? It’s not Manhattan, or Greenwich Village, or Cambridge, Massachusetts, or Beacon Hill, or Wrigleyville, or Hollywood, or Seattle, or Portland. Try South Carolina, Georgia, Kentucky, Texas, Missouri, and, yes, California. These are the guys who are protecting your “right” to denigrate them, who put their lives on the line so you can sit back and tell them how stupid, ignorant, foolish, backward, and deluded they are for voting for President Bush. Well, laddie, we are much, much bigger men than you can ever hope to be, sittng in your little loft, wringing your tiny little wrists and bemoaning your fate. Grow up, boy, there is a big, bad world out there and you can either be part of it, or SDASTFU.
Posted by astounded on Nov 24, 2004 at 5:02 AM
Well,I’m convinced. Having now heard (for the 500th time) how stoooopid we in the Red States
are,I will,from now on,be voting for “progressives” like the Former Twelfth Lady
in ‘08.
Thanks for helping me see the light!
</sarcasm>
Posted by Karen on Nov 24, 2004 at 5:53 AM
Max, I greatly disagree with the war in Iraq but what Hitler did in Poland is not the same.
This is just one of many examples of what Hitler did in Poland.
On June 27, 1941 in the city of Bialystok the German Police Battalion 309 rounded up all the male Jews. They were made to dance for their German capturers. If they didn’t dance well enough their beards were cut off or set on fire. In the hospital, all Jewish patients were shot in their beds. Then the Germans herded the Jews into the city’s main synogogue. There were about 700 people in there. The Jews began to pray as the germans poured petrol all over the building. It was then lit on fire. Men from the police battalion surrounded the synagogue to shoot anyone who tried to escape. 700 people were burned alive and by the end of the day about 2,200 women, men, and children were killed.
Comparing Bush to Hitler is offensive.
Lastly, I do come to conclusions. I have political and personal views on many things. But I also try my hardest to see the reasons behind the other side’s stance. I do not agree totally with any of the parties out there on all the issues.
Posted by Tim on Nov 24, 2004 at 10:16 AM
Tim:
Abu Ghraib prison…..Iraqi museums destroyed…..not to mention the women and children who are terrorized as US soldiers storm into their house in the middle of the night to confiscate “weapons” from their family.
I don’t see how the Bush-Hitler comparison is too far off.
Posted by Edgar Frog on Nov 24, 2004 at 10:23 AM
What happenned in that prison is horrible. However, U.S. forces aren’t receiving commands from high officials to systematically kill civilians. The Special Ops were doing a good job in Afganistan dealing with the weapons searching. The problem is when we assign troops that aren’t trained in how to deal with civilians, an airborn division for one example.
I don’t think we should be in Iraq in the first place but…
You also need to have a sense of scale. There are things that happen in wars. Some civilians will be killed, and many of their rights will be violated. I would like to meet the man who can run a war without any civilian casualties or violations of their rights. It is estimated that about 15,000 civilians have been killed because of this war, and that is horrible. BUT about 5,384,000 civilians were killed by German and Soviet forces IN POLAND ALONE.
Once again the Bush-Hitler comparison is off.
Posted by Tim on Nov 24, 2004 at 10:39 AM
Look how negative comments Susan has gotten!
I think this is very funny!
maybe she is out of touch??
Posted by steve on Nov 24, 2004 at 11:14 AM
I for one, am soooo glad the 53% of America doesn’t agree with this editorial. When is the Democratic Party going to learn that far-left, liberal values just aren’t acceptable to the majority of Americans? I’m a republican, however, I think America would be greatly benifited by having a viable 2nd party…. a 2nd party that actually represents Americans. If this were to come about, and the left would stop grasping at any form of socialism they could, maybe the democrats could win some elections based upon the merits of their positions, and not with “Getting some Secretaries of State on our side next time around” as the author suggests…..which, by the way, sounds a like encouraging voter fraud.
Posted by John Morrison on Nov 24, 2004 at 12:24 PM
The Party of Whiners…you whine for four years about a stolen election. Now you whine about a total throttling at the hands of a superior party.
It’s not so much the fact (according to you) of Bush being less than intelligent as it is your people acting so cocky and arrogant as you look down on the obvious majority.
Sore losers…there is no better way to expalin this diatribe.
That and the fact you are an obvious liberally educated snob that could not make it as a teacher so you took you editorilizing at a sub par newspaper.
I suggest you find new leaderhip in your party going forward…or just move to Canada. You will be welcome there and we will be happy you are gone.
Carpe Diem, moron!
Posted by Jesus on Nov 24, 2004 at 12:45 PM
Tim
the scale is different, but the crime is the same. It is against international law to invade another counrty unless it is to remove another force that has illegally invaded and occupied that country first.
So the Bush people are not pursuing a policy of systematic genocide against a particular racial group but just invading and occuying Iraq in the first place is illegal. An estimated seventeen thousand Iraqi civilians are dead now because of the invasion. That’s murder.
How many deaths was Charles Manson implicated in? Was it three, or six? Well how about Bush’s seventeen thousand. We are taught from childhood not to think of it as the same thing, but if you do think about it, there is no convincing difference. That is why Bush and other senior members of the administration would be hanged if the Nuremberg criteria were applied today. Or is it okay for Americans to act like Nazis but not Germans?
Maybe the crime is just too awful for most conservatives to take in. To really see this simply for what it is, murder. It sounds very dramatic doesn’t it, and I promise you you will not hear this on television.
But think about it. What if it was your little sister who had had her legs blown off? What if it was your mother or farther lying dead in a large pool of blood? People just don’t think about it. They are encouraged not to think about it. They are encouraged to consider the Iraqi’s to have some how deserved it. Well nobody deserves that. Ordinary people, just cut down.
Iraq was not a direct, or even an indirect, threat to the United States of America.
That is a lie, and the suckers who believed it are mostly beyond saving.
Posted by Max Godwin on Nov 24, 2004 at 1:49 PM
Sorry, but Canada already has a new name; its called Northern America. “The United States of Canada” won’t replace it any time soon.
Posted by JP on Nov 24, 2004 at 1:53 PM
I just couldn’t sit here and read anymore Bush bashing. War is not or will it ever be pretty. My brother and nephew are both war veterans. How is it that you can conviently forget the people killed by their OWN leader. Is their death okay, because it was by their own ruler. Is it okay for Olympic athletes who lose to be locked up and tortured because they lost? Is it okay to cut the hands off Iraqui citizens to be raped by the boys of Saddam? Well, yes to you liberals on the left. Gasssing and torturing people in other countries is fine with you. You fail to get it, humans long for freedom and the left only wants freedom if it is endowed upon them by the all mighty dem’s. My brother is in Iraq..His time to go home was up. He stayed. He asked to stay and help, yes help. Each morning he has thank you letters put on his vehicle from citizens who long to be free. Yes, Iraq is a mess aren’t all wars? I hate war, I despise death and killing, especially when it comes from an Iraqui government. Just open up and tell the truth,it is not the war you decry it is Bush. Just tell the truth. Maybe we can move on if you would be honest. Kerry lost because he is an elitist snob. No message and no core values. I am a registered democrat born and raised one. I hope the party gets it’s act together. Get rid of the people bringing it down.i.e. billy and hilly.
Posted by Robin on Nov 24, 2004 at 2:17 PM
Hey Astounded,
keep buying that party line bubba, and one day it’ll come true! Fight to the death…that’s amusing.
Anyways, my point was, America’s legacy in this world has nothing to do with its politics (especially foreign policy, which is spotty at best) but with what it’s given the world in terms of culture…despite your best intentions it seems sometimes. And I really don’t think that’s elitist, it’s just a fact.
the underlying tone of your response is that it is morally superior not to care about literature or film or music, that being willfully ignorant is the proper way to be. Only “nancy boys” care about that stuff…which is really sad when you think about it.
what I was initially saying was to let the Conservatives have the politics, they’ll run the country into the ground. Instead go out and see a movie, or a live concert, or hey, maybe check out an art gallery or a museum…it might be fun, and in 20 years time when the zealots have destroyed the country (and yes I realize that most Cons aren’t zealots, but they have the power right now in the Republicans..) you can get back to work on restoring the country.
Posted by neil on Nov 24, 2004 at 2:54 PM
This is probably going to sound a little redundant but here we go…
I am a pacifist with some exceptions. I am fairly liberal and have major problems with this administration including the war in Iraq. I do believe that the U.S. has violated and continues to violate international law in several cases. Unfortunately, that’s not important to most of the people running this country. And I agree with you that Iraq was not a threat to our country. However, we started this war with faulty information that even many of the beloved democrats verified as reason to go to war. Bush was still riding on his post-9/11 power surge.
But you’re still trying to compare Bush and American forces to Hitler and the nazis. I can tell that no matter how much I describe the atrocities committed by German forces in WWII, you are not going to change your mind. I’m not arguing the fact that the war, in the first place, was wrong. However, I am going to argue about how this war is being carried out. Hitler and german military forces in World War II rounded up civilians and systematically tortured and killed them. They were ordered to do this by high officials in the nazi government.
The war in Iraq, although not justified, is being run differently. U.S. soldiers are not rounding up civilians to systematically torture and kill them. But you’re right, civilian deaths are occuring. I’m not arguing with that. No matter how efficient the fighting, there will always be civilian deaths. And I expect that this number will keep going up as the war goes on.
As a final note, I’m not interested in arguing this with you any more. We both agree that the war is unjustified, and that therefor the civilian deaths are unjustified. But there is a difference between a man who went to war, a war that is killing civilians (they all do), on false pretenses and a man who ordered the killing of over 5 million Jewish people. We both agree that Bush is wrong, I am just personally offended that you would compare him to Hitler.
Posted by Tim on Nov 24, 2004 at 3:05 PM
Bravo, Tim. It’s good to finally hear from a liberal with some sanity.
Posted by Randolph on Nov 24, 2004 at 4:07 PM
Given the volume and vociferousness of the comments from the right, I would say that you must be right on track.
The problems facing the Democratic Party are not those of progressives. The old guard Dems need to be retired and the party needs to coalesce around core principles. (I purposely avoided the use of the oft misused term “values.”)
Posted by Mike Carlson on Nov 24, 2004 at 6:24 PM
As a Democrat I feel sick reading this article and all these posts. My wife is a Republican. We made a deal that I would stomach reading the Wall Street Journal Op/Ed and National Review online if she would read The Nation and In These Times. No progess has been made of course and we continue to cancel each other’s vote out.
But now Susan wants to call my wife “stupid”? All she does is get her news from “Fox”? I’m sorry to be rude but what BS.
It is clear this election could have been won by the Democrats if the freakish ultra-left could have just shut up. You’re like Nader. He screwed us in 2000 and you have screwed us in 04. A bad economy, a terrible war,...what the frick more do you need?
Nader was given campaign funds by the “R’s” (see, I’m a good Molly Ivin’s fan) b/c they knew he would tilt the election. You idiots have done the same. Time for some house cleaning. Go home Susan.
Sincerely, Tork Riem
ps- I just reread my post. I agree with your points Susan. I don’t mean to be harsh. But if you look at the electoral data it is just too clear. The election was held, against all concievable odds we got creamed, and the far left is the reason. Deny all you want. It’s the truth.
Posted by Tork Riem on Nov 24, 2004 at 7:20 PM
A note to everyone except Tim, who doesn’t want to hear it anymore.
The comparison between the neo-cons and the German Nazis is not a metaphor. I feel bad repeating it for those who have no stomach for the truth, but in terms of the first and biggest crime committed, namely the unprovoced invasion and occupation of another country, Bush and Hitler are extrodinarily similar. Once again this is not a metaphor, this is recorded history.
Does anyone know Hitler’s rationale for invading Poland? He basically told the German people that the jews were in control in Poland and were planning to eventually attack Germany. This is a fact. He would often refer to the ‘jewish warmongers’, and his policy was one of supposed preemption. Sound familiar?
Now obviously Hitler went on to do some extraordinarily evil things, but I feel so strongly about the similarlities that do exist to Bush that I have to say it. For instance, Hitler was financed to the tune of billions by a group of rich industrialists headed by a guy called Fritz Thyssen. The second world war was initially, among other things, a war of plunder. Do not take my word for this, do your own research.
So much evil is committed in the name of ‘but this is different’. It’s not different. We are on an incredibly slippery slope. One person’s death as the result of a conservative fantasy is one too many, but thousands? Bush was in control, he was the president, he chose to do this. He is not a strong man, he is a man with very little self control. And he is also now one of the greatest mass murderers in American history. The only real difference between Bush and Hitler is the body count.
This is not a justified war. It’s a war that certain people in power wanted to fight. It wasn’t a war they had to fight.
Meanwhile the genuine terrorists are making videos in Pakistan.
By the way if Bush somehow didn’t know what the result of his actions was going to be then what the hell is he doing anywhere near the White House? I feel literally sick when I think about murderers getting away with it. This is not right, there is something really weird going on.
We are virtually all losers in this election. Roughly half of us know it, roughly half us are oblivious, and two percent are laughing at the rest of us.
Posted by Max Godwin on Nov 24, 2004 at 9:14 PM
Bottom Line: Libs LOST almost all the way around. You might be a redneck if you voted for a WINNER! You might be a do-nothing reporter if you voted for a WHINER! You got 4 more yrs to whine. Of course you are very good at it. It is only the perverts in the cities that voted for ole lurch and guess what? YOU LOST GET OVER IT. YOU ARE LOSERS. Of course you will never get it. To bad you can’t get a REAL job. Hey you know how to starve a reporter? Put their check under their workboots
Posted by Cowboy on Nov 24, 2004 at 9:19 PM
Hey how about that man named edgar Frog. With a name like frog you would think he would hide or change his name. Who would take that moron serious. He is probably susans old man
Posted by Cowboy on Nov 24, 2004 at 9:29 PM
Wow you libs really are taking it hard. Calm down you just got 4 more years. Don’t work yourself into a frenzy. ( I use the term work loosly)
Posted by Cowboy on Nov 24, 2004 at 9:32 PM
Tork,
I disagree with the far left being the reason. They vote for what they believe in as I’m sure you do. Nader DID not accept funding even if it was or not offered by the republicans. Some people do believe in strategic voting and instead of voting for Nader, voted for Kerry. You got some and you also didn’T get some. The fact is that the “ultra-left” as you call it does not believe in what kerry stands for.
To all those that think people who aren’t republican or are mean lefties should go to Canada,
The fact is that all the “lefties” as the “righties” are americans. Whether you like it or not, both parties want to make this country a better place. Whether some are too agressive about it is another question though. Maybe it’s because they feel threatened, sadened… fear can fuel aggression!
To Hitler fans,
It is not that realistic to compare Bush and Hitler for the simple reason, they think differently and we live in a world with completely different dynamics, which actually creates a radically different problem.
NOTE: The geneva convention and co. were create for a reason… a HISTORICAL reason… to avoid reoccurrences of tragedes (WWars). The fact that the US seems to be above these conventions is beyond me.
Not changing my comment above, if we want to continue in the hitler/Bush parallel. Take the CIA. It is secretive. OK. Why is it above the law? It is supposed to serve the people and the state, yet it is above them. Why?
Posted by Dan on Nov 24, 2004 at 9:33 PM
Cowboy,
What scares us about “just 4 more years” is looking back at “just the past 4 years”. So much can be accomplished in 4 years. My goal in life is to leave this world seeing that it is better, for my son, my daughter (though I don’t have any children yet) for my friends, for my neighbours, for the nice people that accepted me in their house in Guatemala for 2 weeks. Some people do whine. But your comment seemed to me like whining, except, whining about whiners. But I will not comment on your attitude because it isn’t my place to do so. The fact is that whether the election was won or not, people with different opinions live side by side every day. For that simple reason I think it is important to be open to what others are living trough, what their opinions are and so and so forth. And this is not a one-sided attitude. It goes for the lefties and the righties. Look at yourself, your convictions and how you react to opposite or very different convictions. Then look at the person with the different conviction and how she reacts and how both are convinced to the same degree, that what they say is true. If both took time to discuss, be open and not pushy, I think this world progress faster. We all think differently. Talking helps us understand how others think.
It is still difficult for me to this day to be calm and talk calmly to people with “right” ideas for the simple reason that what is happening in the world disgusts me, not to a point of despair, but to a point where action needs to undertaken to change what is wrong. Yet already the word “action” seperates us by a mile and your opinions and influence in the world create a seemingly infinte wall for us. That wall is the source of the friction imo.
Posted by Dan on Nov 24, 2004 at 9:53 PM
To all the conservatives out there.
When people agree with you they are excercising their right to free speech. When people disagree with you they are ‘whiners’. Well the ‘whiners’ are here to stay, forever, and the truth will eventually speak for itself.
To all those who voted for Bush, with all your predictions about the future of the democractic party. KEEP ON VOTING FOR BUSH! We don’t need your vote. There are a lot more people out there who are eligable to vote than actually did. We will eventually mobilise them all, despite the right-wing dominated media.
Bush supporters are just the cold hearted side of this country and we will eventually consign you to the garbage can of history.
So go back to sleep, you won. Four more years of death, destruction and record deficits. Enjoy it while you can.
Freedom and truth will win in the long run. I just pray you don’t get to murder too many children people before then, be it in Iraq, Iran or whereever.
Posted by Max Godwin on Nov 25, 2004 at 1:07 AM
Godwin, when people disagree with you they’re beneath contempt. And you do need our vote. Have you noticed the throttling that Democrats suffered in this election? Judging by the beating you took in the White House, Senate, and House of Represenatives I’d say you could probably use some more votes. Maybe P’ Diddy’s next “Vote or Die” campaign to recruit deadbeats will be more successful. Maybe Democrats should keep promising crack to winos in return for a vote like they did in Cleveland.
Posted by Randolph on Nov 25, 2004 at 8:30 AM
Let’s talk about the national debt, or tax giveaways to corporate and rich Jesusland, or the cronyism, deceit, or fingerpointing, and NOT accepting blame for any mistakes! Not only the unbeleivable debt underminig the dollar, now social security is next. After Reaganism, now runaway jingoism, us versus them attitudes, we seem to have forgotten democracy. My trust of capitalism, in God we trust, and the incredible hypocritical American public has turned to cynicism. We have NO HOPE if Tom Delay,cheerleading Cheney talking out the wrong side of his mouth, and a president that doesn’t even read the paper can say anything and be believed is a joke! Remember dubya has been a failure in just about every business. Why are we even surprised we are in such a state? I find it impossible to be to be hopeful. Is anarchy far behind?
Posted by buck boomer on Nov 25, 2004 at 11:23 AM
I am going to use Max’s reasoning here. In a nutshell Bush BAD…... Saddam GOOD. Do I have that correct? He still fails to understand that Sadddam was killing his OWN people. You know that lovely (ha ha) despot. The one in uhm oh jail. It is okay for HIM to murder and rape his own people, but GOD (sorry liberals for the God term). Please do not report me to the ACLU.Let Bush go into Iraq after Saddam ignored 14, yeah 14 resolutions to comply,and he is now the guy Max idolizes you know Adolf. Ask Max he quotes his name enough. What we should do is let Saddam out of jail, open up his palaces and then install him as supreme dictator of Iraq. I mean really. so what if he was killing woman and children, just turn the other cheek right? The maybe the left can go and run for positions in his new duely elected hahaha government. Coffin companies will really be doing a good business once Saddam is in power again. Maybe then we can move on with our lives. Ha no such luck.
Posted by Robin on Nov 25, 2004 at 1:40 PM
This last post by Robin shows the problem in a nutshell,and why so many people voted for Bush.They forget the facts that don’t agree with them.They forget that we(America),support ‘ruthless dictators’ when it’s convenient for us to,we supported Sadaam when it was convenient.They forget that the reason we went into Iraq in the first place was because they were an imminent threat to us because they had WMD’s.Well,we now know that was a LIE.At least those of us that remember.They forget that we gave free passes to the Bin Laden family,so they would’nt have to face the repurcussions for his actions(family ties are as importent in the Muslim world as they are here,maybe more so).I still don’t quite understand that one,other than to speculate that Michael Moore was right,and there really was and is financial ties between the Bushes and the Bin Ladens. Speaking of Michael Moore,I’ve heard a lot of noise about how his movie,F.9/11,was full of lies and hype,but I’ve yet to hear any facts to dispute any of the claims he’s made.Only that he’s fat.But I digress,my point is that our thoughts don’t progress past the latest sound byte,the latest piece of propaganda thats fed to us through the ‘media’.The quote,‘liberal media bias’,unquote, is nothing more than a smoke screen to cover up for the fact that the ‘media’ does’nt report anything that would significantly rock the boat.Does the ‘liberal media’ report that 100,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed? No. That would shed an unfavorable light on the Bush administration. Does the ‘liberal media’ report on why tower 7 at the world trade center had to be “brought down”,and how they could set that up in 4 hours, when it takes weeks to set up to intentually bring down a building of that size? No. Because that would really rock the boat.The media,from CBS all the way through Rush Limbough,especially Gush Limpballs, is bought and paid for by the ‘powers that be’, and as such, can’t be trusted for any real information that would serve to keep us informed as to whats really happening around us and to us. So whats the answer? I’m not sure, but a good start would be to get past the’haha we won’,and the ‘shit,we lost’ mentality, there is a lot going on that is not apparent on the surface, and just about everything I’ve read here is surface froth,and really not of much account.Dig a little deeper, and maybe your opinions will change,that is, if there is any courage among you.
Posted by mike on Nov 25, 2004 at 5:56 PM
astounded, the Blue states pay the bulk of the taxes in the US, so without the Blue states, the Red states together would be lucky to be a marginal G8 nation, though I doubt even that.
To whoever said it, by the way, the 35% of those who supported civil unions were those who supported civil unions but not gay marriage. “35% support civil unions” is a form of shorthand. Only 37%, if my memory serves me, rejected any legal recognition of homosexual unions, period.
What socialist values would it be that the Democratic party supports at the expense of America? Would it be the 67% who believe that American health care needs “fundamental reform”? (The highest in any industrialized nation, Limbaugh’s quoting of single payer horror stories from Canadian crank groups like the Fraser Institute notwithstanding.) Would be it be the push to raise the minimum wage, which passed in overwhelming numbers in red states such as Nevada? (While we’re on the subject, it’s worth noting that neither the latest minimum wage raise to 5.15 during the Clinton years nor the states and cities that have independently legislated higher minimum wages have actually experienced any rise of unemployment. Yet another gut to the crank groups like the CATO Institute.) How’s this for an idea? Take any single “socialist” economic issue (opposition to privatization of Social Security, increased federal assistance to college students with their tuition fees, national day care program, etc.) and run a nationwide referendum on it which would override any decision in Congress, any White House veto. Don’t want to risk it? If you’re only going to end up crying “constitutionalism”, don’t make the claim that Democratic “socialist” policies are out of touch with your country.
Posted by Ted on Nov 25, 2004 at 7:02 PM
First I would like to identify myself as a Christian - a Lutheran. But I am also a Democrat. There are two issues I would like to ask the above Republicans regarding moral values.
1.Who among you is going to take over the expense of medical care for my adult daughter, who could easily have been a victim of abortion, because she is severely disabled due to well water that was full of farm chemicals when she was in the womb? It was a miracle that she lived at birth and now another miracle of medical science has allowed her to live 15 years longer than her life expectancy (30 years). She is expected to live a normal life span now. When GWB cuts the medical programs to give all of you your tax cuts she will die. So I need you to volunteer to take over when the programs are either repealed or without funds.
2.In the late 70s the Lutheran Witness, the official newsletter from the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, published an article regarding the definition of a just war. It was well thought out and Biblically documented. Unfortunately, the Iraq war does not fit this definition. What should I tell my five draft age grandchildren, 3 boys and 2 girls who are mothers of little babies, when they are asked to take part in an unjust war? I do not want them to die in or take part in something our faith has said is wrong.
Posted by judy on Nov 25, 2004 at 10:13 PM
Judy, get your head out of your ass. “When GWB cuts the medical programs to give all of you your tax cuts she will die”—where did you come up with this? Why don’t you try backing up this claim with some evidence? As for who will take care of your daughter, why don’t you sue the people responsible for her condition? If it’s their fault then they should have to compensate. As for the draft, THERE’S NOT ONE! Nor has there been any talk of one other than from a few Democrats. Besides, females aren’t subject to the draft so tell your grandchildren to relax. There’s your answer.
Posted by Randolph on Nov 26, 2004 at 9:16 AM
Randolph, it is your prez that is talking about faith-based care programs. My daughter’s care would break my local church in less than a year. That includes our savings for a building fund. As to taking the ones responsible to court: there were no protections on the law books against chemical polution when she was born (1958) and it is also impossible to prove which chemical in the soup in the well water caused the defects. Anyhow isn’t your prez saying we should not be suing for every little thing?
As to a draft I do hope you are right. I will keep praying that we do not have to revisit that situation again.
Posted by judy on Nov 26, 2004 at 9:31 AM
Read the draft legislation - HR 163. It does include women.
Posted by Tiffany Froehlich on Nov 26, 2004 at 9:55 AM
Wow Randolph,
that sure was a mean-spirited response. Do you talk to your grandmother that way? sheesh.
Posted by lefty canuck on Nov 26, 2004 at 10:00 AM
Only when my grandmother gets hysterical like Judy.
Posted by Randolph on Nov 26, 2004 at 1:51 PM
I think that anybody that voted for Bush should get it tattooed (or microchipped) on their arms so that after the fraud has been proven you will know who the rats were ,because when that ship starts sinking theres going to be a lot of rats deserting .........ask GWB for tips on deserting ........that National Guard service…........
Posted by mmiixx of erf on Nov 26, 2004 at 3:02 PM
to all you reds out there,
Some conservative utterings…spotted in this blog…
“W.‘s private moments,times with wounded soldiers…”-Dubya hasn’t attended a single funeral of any of the American soldiers killed in Iraq so far-
“decisiveness when criticized…”-or did you mean conciseness…only fools never change their mind-
“No President is perfect, mistakes have and will be made…”- your current’president’is really taking this definition to as yet unexplored regions
“...looking at organized terror as a thing of the past…”- organized terror has never had such fertile lands to thrive on as today- the number of desperado suicide bombers willing to take out innocent lives has never been higher-
“So some foreigners may hate us-I don’t give a damn.”-But you did when those planes hit the towers,didn’t you?
“Christian concepts underlie much of our law”-What’s so Christian about letting close to 50 million of your countrymen go without health insurance and sink into abject poverty?
“We collectively agree that the wrongful taking of innocent life is morally wrong and uncivilized”-sounds awfully similar to tens of thousands of innocent civilians being mowed down in Iraq-
“Kerry lost because he’s an elitist snob.”-and Bush isn’t? Look at his family’s fortune!Just because he can put on his cowboy act doesn’t mean he’s not a daddy’s boy who went through all the rites at Yale (despite his obvious intellectual shortcomings)
Just hoping America will snap out of it in 08 for our planet’s sake.
Posted by a concerned and baffled european on Nov 26, 2004 at 4:03 PM
Concerned and Baffled European: I’m not impressed. So you can take a bunch of quotes (some not even complete sentenced) out any meaningful context and attach a little reply. I’ve noticed a lot of foreignors who like to bash the United States conveniently forget to identify their country. It’s easy to point fingers when you don’t subject your own country to any scrutiny. Why don’t you tell us what country you call home? More importantly, why don’t you mind your own business and let us run our own country? We know a lot more about it than you do.
Posted by Randolph on Nov 26, 2004 at 4:23 PM
Hey concerned…..So what you are saying is Longface, I mean Kerry is now dirt poor? He is I guess if you consider he uhm married his. Not once mind you but twice. The Bush money is earned look at the family business okay. At least the majority of their businesses are inside the UNITED STATES. Also, I think the President owns 1 count them 1 home. J kerry has 6 . Please do not insult people’s intelligence there okay. If the election were the other way around and Kerry had won, then people looking into voting problems would be sore losers. Oh and by the way do a google search and you will find out that Bush scored higher on his IQ test than Longface did. And yes Kerry is an elitist snob and his money, I mean current checkbook, oops I mean wife…...LOONY
Posted by Robin on Nov 26, 2004 at 4:44 PM
To Concerned and Baffled European-from Concerned and Baffled American:Please follow Randolph’s directions:“More importantly, why don’t you mind your own business and let us ruin our own country”. You see what happened to the people of Iraq for minding their own business. If not for the U.S. Supreme Court, Al Gore would have been president. If not for 9/11, George W. Bush would have been a one-term president. Why don’t you understand that God acts in strange and mysterious ways? Please have a “___” day, and God Bless our President Bush. Also, tell us your country of origin so we can place you on our list of countries to bomb. We are busy now looking for bin Laden in all the “Blue States”. Will get to you soon…Your Uncle Sammy
Posted by Mark Cartwright on Nov 26, 2004 at 5:20 PM
“ruin” our own country? Hmmm… interesting typographical error…
Posted by Tiffany Froehlich on Nov 26, 2004 at 5:52 PM
Hey Randy,
Let us ‘run’our own country? You call letting a $250 billion surplus slide into a record $500 billion debt while spending tens of billions of dollars turning Iraq into a bloody quagmire (while that sort of money could have been spent on providing decent social aid to your fellow countrymen) a way of ‘running’ your country? As to the minding my own business-your country’s wheelings and dealings OUTSIDE your borders has had a significant impact across the world in case you have forgotten.Remember the 250 innocent commuters in Madrid whose lives ended because their prime minister got conned into being a part of the ‘willing’? Your President’s choices DO have an impact on the daily lives of people outside your country.I wouldn’t give a shit about your country if it were some insignificant Fascist regime tucked away somehere in the arse end of the world- but it’s not.The decisions your President make in the so-called interests of the American people will impact our planet which is becoming smaller, more fragile, and more intertwined by the day.You can’t keep on putting your head in the sand for ever. Snap out of it.
Posted by a concerned and baffled european on Nov 26, 2004 at 11:31 PM
Hey Randolph,
I don’t mind people disagreeing with me at all. Especially if what they are saying makes sense or is demonstratably or obviously true. I sometimes learn from people who disagree with me, but only ever when what they say makes sense to me.
I don’t like hardline conservatives, just as I don’t like Nazi’s, terrorists or any one else who commits or supports the premeditated killing of other human beings.
It’s real simple Randolph, but obviously still just a little bit beyond your intellectual grasp.
Oh, and by the way I didn’t take a beating, and neither for that matter did the democratic party. Bush had the smallest margin of victory by a sitting president since Woodrow Wilson in 1916. Together with literally hundreds of different reports of vote rigging, or attempts at vote rigging. I would hardly call it a ringing endorsment. Not to mention the fact the Republican party has had the mainstream media completely in it’s pocket for the last twenty years.
Oh, and another thing. Democrats do not need the vote of hardline conservatives in order to win the next election. As things get worse a lot of people who voted for Bush but are not really true believers will gradually wake up and smell the bullshit. It will happen. There is a limit to how much death, destruction and finacial chaos Fox news can spin. People will eventually get it. My only real worry is election fraud, but the hardline conservatives can go to hell.
Also, Robin.
Why in your eyes does denoucing Bush mean supporting Saddam? There are dictators all over the world, I am against them all, but I also do not think we should invade any of them unless they show aggrestion to other countries or attempt to commit genuine acts of genocide. Its not up to the USA to be the world’s self appointed police force in any case. Two wrongs do not make a right, and besides, following your logic why didn’t America unilaterally intervene in the slaguhter in Rwanda?
I’ll tell you why, because there was no money to be made.
I can be against both Bush and Saddam at the same time, being against one does not mean supporting the other. Is this how they taught you to think in shcool, or have you just been watching too much Fox news?
True, Saddam invaded two different countries, but so too did George W. Bush. Osama Bin Laden was responsible for killing three thousand innocent civilians. George W. Bush has killed seveteen thousand. Read my lips. I AM AGAINST THE PREMEDITATED KILLING OF HUMAN BEINGS BY ANY ONE FOR ANY REASON. The only time I think killing of any sort is forgivable is as an act of direct self defence.
So, to use your logic, to disagree with me, is to agree with people who commite murder.
By the way, I think the ‘Coffin companies’ are doing very well for themselves in Iraq at the moment, regardless.
To Dan,
nobody is a Hitler fan, that is a distgusting idea. I compare Bush to Hitler, I even make jokes about it, because the similarities on certain levels are striking. Yes, the situation is different in terms of the specifics, but broadly speaking it’s still good old fashioned world domination, for nothing more than ego and loot. George W. Bush is nowhere near as bad as Hitler, and we genuinely have God to thank for that. But he is showing Hitler-like tendencies, and he’s in control of the most powerful military in human history.
So, for all you imbeliciles/conservatives. I am against George W. Bush, Tony Blair, Saddam Hussain, Adolf Hitler, preemption, deception and murder.
I am for freedom, truth, cooperation, win/win situations, human life, democracy, empathy and understanding. I believe that everyone is equal under the rule of the law, and that you must do what ever you can to prevent crime. I also believe criminals should not be let get away.
I support balenced bugets and reasonable taxation. I beleive in helping my fellow human beings, and in fiscal responsibility. I believe in goodness and am dedicated to facing reality, even when that reality repulses me.
Posted by Max Godwin on Nov 27, 2004 at 12:56 AM
Hey Mark James (two gospels—is that your real name?), if you are a solid Bush supporter you are indeed stupid by definition.
I don’t have the U.S of Canada/Jesusland map on my refrigerator, I have the map from the URL below. It’s the most accurate U.S. election map I’ve seen.
[URL=http://www.projectsomewhere.com/gal-4595,10623,5506.html]2004 U.S. election map[/URL]
Posted by Matthew Luke on Nov 27, 2004 at 11:47 AM
Randolph, I’m curious… what’s your position on Tort Reform, and other similar legislation, which would diminish corporate and HMO accountability in the courts? As long as Republicans are standing up for the average, Southern Christian, why not rescue them from having to undertake a contracted, 30-year legal battle costing tens of thousands of dollars for justice?
To those whoever it was who inquired, no liberal have found definitive evidence of voter fraud, which means that by all measures, officially or otherwise, Republicans won the election. However, there have been voting irregularities, and where they exist they all seem to favour Republicans. In Broward county, for example, machines started counting backwards after tabulating 350 votes. (This problem was corrected afterwards, but it’s worth noting no machines in northern Florida required such corrections.) In Franklin county, not enough machines were ordered for pro-Kerry districts (1 machine per 250 voters in Bush precincts, 1 machine per 350 voters in Kerry precincts). Not voter fraud, of course, but it displays questionable ethics of Republican state officials in Ohio. And of course, there are those highly publicized counties that tabulated more pro-Bush votes than there were registered voters. So far, all these mistakes were rectified, and Bush still is left with a solid lead in both Ohio and Florida, but it’s still worthy of investigation that all irregularities seem to favour Republicans. The GAO is undertaking such an investigation as we speak, and if it and a handful of other independent, nonpartisan investigators come up inconclusive, then yes, I’ll drop my complaints about the 2004 election.
It’s amazing the extent to which some Republicans can shield themselves from reality. According to exit polls, some three-quarters of Republican voters believed that WMD’s have been found in Iraq and that there was a link between Saddam and al-Qaeda, despite both claims having been officially disavowed by the White House (and the Pentagon several months before). Many Republicans seem to believe that Bush inherited a recession, which isn’t true. The economy peaked in March 2001, two months after Bush took office. That can hardly be said to have been Bush’s fault, but the bald-faced manner in which right-wing pundits have simply claimed that the recession began under Clinton (and the manner in which people accepted it) has been harrowing, to say the least.
“And yes Kerry is an elitist snob”
Though it is not evident in this statement by itself, I may as well point out that the Right has done a good job completely redefining some words over the past few decades. Of course, everyone knows how the very word “liberal” has been vilified, but another example would be a word used here: “elitist”. The way it is used today seems to impy that an elitist is someone who believes their kind of people is better or higher up than another kind of people; i.e., urban intellectual elites on the coasts thinking that they’re better than the people of the heartland (which we probably do, all things considered. It’s something we’ll have to work on). However, a more correct definition of elitist would be someone who believes that it would best for everyone if a certain distinguished group or class of people should govern society. The Right has tried to shift the meaning away from this as this puts the libertarian-Right holy grail of constitutionalism sqaure in the crosshairs.
Posted by Ted on Nov 27, 2004 at 12:02 PM
I guess I should have been more clear when I stated Kerry was an elitist snob. He came off as a person who felt he had to talk “down” to the voter. He came off as though I am infrior in my intelligence, and therefore, he was not talking to me, but at me. I have an education, thank you. He needed to tell me what he was about. Not this ” I have a plan”. Well and good, tell me what it is okay. His campaign talk as a moderate did not match with his liberal points or votes. I researched everything I could get on Mr. Kerry. I still am. I view all information, not just certain sources. I want ALL facts before I make a decision. I vote for the person, not the party. I have never or will I ever vote a straight ticket. It makes no sense to believe that is what a good republican or democrat would do. The party of the dem’s for the most part is out of touch with the values that I adhere to. They are in league with organized labor, the NAACP, the ACLU, Jessie Jackson and the ever wonerful Al Sharpton. Give me some credit. I make up my own mind and I always will. And no I don"t watch Fox, as someone said I did. I do not watch tv. period. I read, I find my information in both conservative and progressive mag’s. I listen and I educate myself where the candidates stand. Then and only then will I make my decision.
Posted by Robin on Nov 27, 2004 at 12:33 PM
Susan,
Your mean-spirited attitude is exactly why your party lost. That and the Dems miscalculation about the average American’s opinion of Hollywood. It seems that if someone has an opinion different then yours, then they are an idiot? Gee, that will win the centrist vote, won’t it?
By the way, I have never met a single person who thinks that US forces have found WMD’s so I really doubt this alleged pole you claim to have read is valid. Perhaps they asked skewed and loaded questions like the types that were asked at, geee….........let me think…....EXIT POLES?
The day you and many other Democrats realize that opinions that differ from yours can and should be tolerated without ridicule (kind of like what you dems accuse us of doing with homosexuals) is the day you may have a chance at reviving your party.
The bottom line is, whether you agree with them or not, Christians have a huge voting base and disrespecting them lost the dems the election and if your attitude is refelctive of your party’s attitude four years from now then you can expect more of the same.
Respect people’s differences!
Posted by Casey on Nov 27, 2004 at 4:51 PM
There have been references in these discussions to Bush being a “war criminal” for taking over another country, and some have even gone so far as to accuse him of being analogous to Hitler. Few believe this - a reference was even sited regarding the horrific nature of Hitler’s atrocities: shooting innocent civilians in the streets and killing people in hospital beds. Everyone across the planet now agrees that this type of thing is and always was a crime against civilization.
According to an IPS report http://ipsnews.net/new_nota.asp?idnews=26440, this is what happened in Fallujah: people deliberately killed in hospitals, civilians shot in the street, the use of napalm, even poison gas. Admittedly, the Inter Press Service has viewpoints and sources you would never hear on Fox, or even CNN or PBS. But most American reporters report that the US is now so hated by everyone in Iraq that they never go outside a few square mile “green zone” unless accompanied by a US armada, and they readily admit they don’t know anything about what is going on other than what the military tells them.
If only 10% of the eye witnesses in one out of ten of the multitude of articles like this are true, then is it any wonder that the incidents of terrorism are increasing so dramatically throughout the world? Does anyone think that the human desperation caused by these atrocities will do anything but increase terrorism further? Is your child safer now than they were 4 years ago?
This IPS article is the type of report that europe, asia, and the rest of the world get everyday. Their news isn’t polluted or distorted by the influence of the Australian multibillionaire who owns Fox, or cronies who are afraid to raise the eire of the military-industry-media conglomerate which Murdock is part of.
In prewar Germany, the Germans were so badly duped by a zealot into supporting what the world now views as atrocities because they had no access to information to the contrary. In the USA in 2004, the information is out there, but many (it would appear, the slight majority) refuse to believe it, or even acknowledge the existence of facts contrary to their views.
Posted by Jose on Nov 27, 2004 at 5:35 PM
No, it wasn’t exit polls. Numerous post-election polls arrived at that conclusion, including this one:
http://pipa.org/OnlineReports/Pres_Election_04/Press10_21_04.pdf
(I forget the original poll where I first heard it, but this one will do.)
By the way, even if it was, what’s wrong with exit polls? They’re usually so reliable and accurate that many third world countries successfully use them to detect voting fraud. What happened with early exit polling this year is a mystery, but what shouldn’t be considered a mystery is what to make of people too stupid to know what they mean what they’re talking about “moral values”.
Thank you, Robin, for clearing that up. My only gripe with that complaint (given Kerry’s uncharismatic and patrician demeanor, it’s probably true) is that so many righties bring up double standards when it comes to these sort of things. Kerry appears arrogant (when making a speech)? He’s an elitist snob. Bush appears arrogant, say, when talking about the war? He’s being an effective commander-in-chief. You get that all over. People want to boycott Sinclair? Censorship. The Religious Right want to boycott certain programs (CBS’ “The Reagans” come to mind)? They’re standing up for what they believe in. If and when the media sympathizes with the Left (say, whistle-blowing a corporate scandal)? Bias. If and when the media sympathizes with the Right (all of FOX’s content, pretty much)? The free market at work. See what I mean?
(On that last point, if the Right continues to insist that today’s timid and complacent media is in some way liberally biased, let’s not try and prove why this isn’t so with links and examples and all that. They’re not worth the trouble; just say that it is the free market at work.)
Posted by Ted on Nov 28, 2004 at 9:57 AM
We just need to divide the country into two. The intelligent, progressive liberals and the ignorant, hillbilly conservatives. It won’t be long until the conservative half of the country blows themselves up in the name of Jesus Christ. They are too ignorant to know any better.
Posted by Edgar Frog on Nov 29, 2004 at 4:35 PM
Ted, I’m all for tort reform, even though I’m a lawyer and it definitely won’t be good for business. I don’t understand your question. What is this thirty-year legal battle you’re talking about?
Posted by Randolph on Nov 30, 2004 at 2:47 PM
SAVE 53% OFFTHE NEWSSTAND PRICE!
Reader Comments
What a bunch of garbage! As a solid Bush supporter, I find it reprehensible to be calle an idiot or a dunce. I happen to be a college graduate and business professional. I believe that this kind of thinking is why the Democratic party is in a shambles. According to you, no one is entitled to have a position if it doesn’t agree with yours. I am thankful to Fox News to provide fair and balanced news. As a Bible thumping neaderthal, I am proud of my country and of my President. I believe the mandate is based on 3.5 million votes and not 160,000 votes from Ohio. Whether it was 3.5 million or 1 vote, the people chose their leader and I thank God it was George Bush.
Glad to see that the Democrats learned tolerance from this election.
To defeat an enemy you must first understand him. Since Ms. Douglas understands that all Bush voters are neanderthals, it is clear that she has done all the analysis necessary.
With open-minded and non-judgemental thinking like this, I am certain that democrats will continue to lose elections for many years to come.
(Hint: that was sarcasm)
Susan,
Great job, keep your party on track here with this and you will lose the next election.
Yes yes.. your country stuff I love it.
Keep it up and lose some more!
Make it easy for us idiots out here to win.
Pure genius!! Damn I can’t believe you lost.
Was it the Right that got into a scandal over facts?
Oh no it was the left…. but keep believing it and someday…. you will lose again!!
Problem is, you can’t separate facts from feelings. Nuance, perception, feelings…
I blame the soft sciences for this weak minded thinking.
I pity your ineptness
it is sad, so very sad. The Left just tells the country what a bunch of idiots they are, they had a permanent Hate Bush campaign for the past 4 years, they wonder how anyone, anyone can support Bush. The left sucks. You are whining losers. You know nothing about America. You hate America. You wonder why you lost? Because you are filthy amoral scum. Go to canada, get out now, we don’t need you.
What if’s concerning Ohio are ridiculous. The vote is what it is. But if you want to move 135K votes out of Bush’s Ohio vote, what about other changes?
Kerry won PA and 21 electoral votes by LESS than Bush won Ohio’s 20 votes. Turn around less than 120K votes in NH, WI, and MN and Bush picks up another 24 electoral votes. Only 67K votes in OR gives Bush another 7. Out of nearly 120 million votes, less than 300K selectively moved over to Bush would give him another 62 electoral votes, or almost 350!
BBBBBBWWWWWWWAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!
Get real dude! 130,000 margin of victory?
NAW it was more like 3,000,000 margin of loss.
It would have been sooooooo easy to pick W off, but the we picked a MAJOR loser, stiff, aristocratic, haughty, with a bs war record and ashamed of his record in the Senate, and his speaking voice? he sounded like a cartoon senator, what was with that? Kerry did not stand a chance. (He would have stood a chance, no he would have wiped the floor with W if he had used the tone of voice in his campaign speeches that he used in his concession speech, same as Gore, his best speech of the campaign was his concession speech, strange that, I don’t understand it.)
Now if the we had nominated Senator Nelson of Florida, it would have been an entirely different story, a true hero, an astronaut, no dubious ‘Nam albatross around his neck, extremely popular in Florida, he would have won a lot of the red states that Kerry lost, he would have won Florida and Ohio, those states love astronauts and W would be a laaaaame duck that we would have to suffer only a month or so more of.
The most important thing to remember these days is that people vote for the person NOT the party, Kerry was very aloof and it killed him. Got to get a more populist candidate next time for us to even have a chance.
It is such courageous assessments that give me hope for the future of the Progressive movement in this country.
“The Democrats and progressives need to…” keep listening to the advice of writers like this!
At the end of the day Susan can you tell us what the Progressive cause has come to? All of the articles in this mag for the past 3 years have been extolling the gains the “movement” has been making. But now you have lost all 3 branches of the federal gov and the majority of the statehood branches as well.
So do ya think the old lefties, who just got their butts kicked with their socialist babbling ideas, should take a seat and let some new articulate blood come in?
What have you done for the Progressives lately Susan? Just point out a concrete gain or two.
Hey Susan, we all know that having writers with three names like Mark Crispin Miller on our side guarantees a loss!
Sheeesh, I quit. I’m going over to the other side. They don’t have any three-named writers, much less a bunch of one—named dweeks like Bono, Cher, Barbra…etc…etc…ad nauseum…
Very poorly argued. How about citing one of your
“many documented sources” referenced in “Stage 1.”
What proof can you offer that Fox News viewers are more ignorant of current affairs than viewers of other news sources?
In “Stage 4” you claimed that “a whopping 60 percent supported either gay marriage (25 percent) or civil unions (another 35 percent).”
Said differently - a whopping 75 percent DO NOT support gay marriage. Or how about this - only 25 percent support gay marriage.
Sorry Sue, but this article would probably get a failing grade in any college English course.
Hey, you are exactly right. Keep doing what you are doing. Your article summarizes the best strategy for Democrats. Insult the electorate, call the majority of voters stupid, insult the huge number of women who are pro-life, belittle religious faith… Good stuf! Yeah, you guys are going to win the government back in no time. Keep up the good work.
Wow! Such incisive analysis…there truly is no better source for meaningful and pithy political thought than the Shirelles…
http://www.theshirelles.com/history.html
How can conservatives possibly compete with a “movement” that has both the Shirelles and Barbra on their side?
Stage 7: Lose again, by an even larger margin
Stage 8: Become more shrill
Stage 9: See stage 7
Stage 10: See stage 8
and so on…
Susan, you need to stop studying that red state/blue state map. It’s giving you a false picture.
Go study the county-by-county red/blue map, which is much more revealing. On this map you see that Kerry didn’t win Pennsylvania, but only Philadelphia. He didn’t win Michigan, but only Detroit. Etc.
In fact, the Democrat Party is no longer a national party at all. The only place anybody buys your nonsense anymore is in a handful of urban centers.
Most of the nation heard your message loud and clear, and voted accordingly. You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting.
Your piece is amusing and representative of some of the unbelievable fantasy tales many Democratic-leaning media have spun since the election. There simply aren’t enough Jerry Falwell types, “Bible banging Neanderthals” (one fact I have never understood is that Democrats champion tolerance and respect of virtually every religion OTHER than Christian evangelicalism) or single issue gay marriage and pro-life social voters in America to elect a president. The Bush victory, solid by any measure, was attributable to a host of factors, none of which is mentioned in your article: (i) personal character and leadership characteristics, (ii) a recovering economy, (iii) a low-tax, strong national defense and anti-terrorism message, (iv) education policy, (v) John Kerry’s waffles on Iraq (after a year and many millions of dollars I am still not sure what his “plan” is or was), and (vi) failure of the Democratic establishment to nominate a more moderate candidate instead of a tired and dovish liberal. It wasn’t a case of believing the Swift Boat Vets over Michael Moore; the American people judged two men and political philosophies and voted accordingly.
What part of the 9/11 hearings, the bestseller list for the last six months and extensive news coverage did these people miss?
This was not a legal case tried in the 6th Circuit. Did you not read the Dolfur Report? Have you never bought a used car? The correct repsonse, “Thank God Bush acted when he did. We caught that SOB without a stockpile of WMD.”
“I know not what to think of a republic of 30 million athiests.” John Adams on France. Does that make John Adams a “Neandrthal Bible thumper”? If it does, then count me in.
If you are attempting to parallel Elisabeth Kubler Ross’ work on death and dying and the 5 stages of grief, you have a way to go. The stages are as follows: denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance. You seem to have experienced 4 of them. Try acceptance. Acceptance that you may be wrong. Acceptance that there may be other valid points of view. Acceptance that your way may not be the only way to acheive a common goal. It might open your eyes to a whole new world.
Depite the arrogance & obtuseness of your piece, the conclusion is the most revealing & damning part: free speech lost you the election (by the abolition of government-mandated content under the guise of the misnamed “Fairness” Doctrine) given that the voters are too stupid to understand that the Left will deliver them from the pits of ignorance in which they wallow, so if we can get rid of that silly “free speech” stuff, you can once again enlighten the simple folk of this country, just like in the good ol’ days of Walter Cronkite & Eric Sevareid & Huntley & Brinkley. Hey—if you can pull that off, maybe we can even become Belgiumesque so your courts can abolish your opposition when it gets too popular!! Might as well, since we Great Unwashed Proletariat need to be shown the way until we can discover it for ourselves (q.v. that Lenin dude).
Wow, after reading the responses to this article I am further convinced of the moral depravity of the right. I’ve never seen such a collection of sore winners in my life! You won folks! Go do your gloating amongst yourselves…it’s only polite.
Oh and “S”, maybe somebody should let you know that your guy doesn’t measure up on all those factors you quoted.
“personal character and leadership qualities?” In Bush? that’s amusing…let’s see him blink confusedly ONE more time…
Hatred, resentment, arrogance, contempt for and derision of Christianity—“Bible bangers are not the new majority”—lack of vision, calling those who supported Mr. Bush ignorant, etc.: You and everyone else who calls himself or herself a Democrat and/or liberal and/or leftist and/or progessive can say and write these and more until the proverbial cows come home.
In fact, I genuinely encourage you do exactly that.
The effect of such behavior will be to ensure the backseat in American politics for a long time for Democrats and liberals.
So, thanks. And, please, please, please, keep up the good work.
It should help ensure a conservative-and-Republican majority in the Congress, White House and most state governments for at least a generation.
You tried to steal every vote you could. You had 90% of major media on your side-working for you, in the case of CBS. You had millions of dollars for TV, with practically no restraint on what you said. Youbetrayed blacks and gays with attacks on Mary Cheney, Rice, Powell, etc.
And you lost.
You aren’t smart. You’re problem is you can’t think. Success in your world consists of rote memorization of rigid dogma.
You are unable to change.
Soon you will be gone.
“Stage 1: Shock Many of us were barely functional on Wednesday, wondering how could it be that a guy so obviously and patently incompetent and deceptive, as documented by so many sources—and a faith-based zealot to boot—got reelected?”
Funny, many of us were shocked that a guy so obviously and patently incompetent and deceptive, as documented by so many sources-and with an ambulance chaser for a VP candidate could get so many votes
Why don’t you liberals come up with a winning stategy instead of banging on your high chairs and screaming “no fair!” evey time you get your asses whipped at the polls. What a bunch of pussies!
The Left was soundly rejected on November 2nd. Stop crying- the grownups are trying to run a country here.
Stupid hippie. Always gotta be somebody else’s fault when things don’t go your way, huh? Can’t you just accept the fact that you lost because you, your candidate and your party are all LOSERS!
Yes, YOU lost. Face it. You didn’t try hard enough to win, and you should have because Bush was very beatable this time around. You had a great chance and blew it. But that’s what LOSERS do. Winners win and losers lose and you lost. Do the math.
But nooooo…gotta bitch and whine and complain and play the victim. Well shut the fuck up and tell it to somebody who cares. Tired of hearing you dirtbags yap. Get over it.
Democracy is surely a fragile creature. The South lost the right to own fellow humans in the first Civil War. We are now engaged in another civil war, testing whether a nation of underinformed and misinformed citizens can indure. Our Constitution, with its Bill of Rights, is slowly dissolving before our eyes. Fifty-more months of this fake, “compassionate Christian” president, surrounded completely by “YES people” may be more than this democracy can endure. For those on the Right who invite progressives to Canada, this is advice more and more Americans are listening to. The South is unwilling to vote for a Democrat from the North anymore. Yes, the last one was assassinated in Texas 41-years ago on this very day of Nov. 22. If you are young, want access to health care, a reliable pension system, a safer environment and protection for your civil rights, Canadian citizenship may be your best “lifeboat”. Our ship of state has struck two-massive icebergs(Vietnam & Iraq)and has an incompetent captain at the helm. This “Ship of Fools” is sinking. Will there be a lifeboat left for you? Go North young man/woman!
YOu’re kidding, right? A clear majority in the popular vote serves you when it is convinent, e.g. 2000 when Gore won the popular vote, but lost to Bush in the electoral vote, whereas in 2004, Bush clearly won both, yet you refuse to see the 3.5 million vote gap in the two canadates? As a Bible thumping neandrathal, and an ignorant Dunce, at least I’m able to come up with real arguements as to why George Bush won. Could it be a return to basic moral values the country was founded on?
When the democratic party sees how the United States votes, maybe they’ll start winning. It wouldn’t help to have a good canadate run either.
awwwwww, diddums gettums widdle wiberal feewings hurrrrt???
Mark:
Hmm. I have access to health care (there’s a hospital down the street—I think you mean health insurance). I have a reliable pension system, a clean environment (incredibly cleaner than any third world country), and my civil rights have never been violated. And, yes, I live in America. Couple of other things:
1) I’m sure it’s a typo, but I find it ironic you misspell “endure” in the same sentence you call me and my co-voters misinformed or underinformed.
2) Could you please, just please, give one example of the Bill of Rights “disolving.” That’s right—a fact to support your assertion.
3) JF Kennedy was a taxcutting cold warrior. He’d probably be a Republican or mod Democrat today.
4) Oh, you forgot one thing: if you want to be taxed at twice the rate you are in the U.S., Canada may be the place for you.
Susan, among your many incorrect statements was this, “previous four years and this election emphasize how important media reform is, particularly the reinstatement of the Fairness Doctrine, which the Reagan Administration abolished in 1987.”
As you should remember - if you would bother to take off your intellectual and political blinders is that the proximate cause of the dissoultion of the “Fairness Doctrine” was the decision in Meredith Corp. v. FCC that the doctrine was not mandated by Congress and that the FCC did not need to continue to enforce it. The decision to dissolve the doctrine was made by the FCC, an independent commission, not the Reagan administration.
I wish liberals were less talk and more action. Always jabbering about moving to Canada, Ireland or France. Get off your ass and go!
1. You can pay brutal taxes in Canada (and face crime rates twice the US).
2. If you like sitting on your ass complaining all day then France is your best bet. Mandatory limits on work hours mean more butt time to gripe.
3. Ireland is being taken over by crabby liberal hags. Soon that lovely isle will be as much fun as Belgium or Finland.
4. So go.
Most of you are stating that the article is not good in the way that it attacks the raw “intelligence” of the right in the US. Most if not all of the comments use the same tactics the author of this article just did: personal attacks on who the ones that don’t have the same opinion as you are.
2 examples:
“Stupid hippie.”
“Stop crying- the grownups are trying to run a country here.”
Now if these attitudes are more “grownup” and “intelligent” than the one of the author… I need to go back to school or something like that.
To state my personal opinion on the republican party:
I believe it transforms the USA into a purely theocratical state. I firmly believe that religion and state affairs should not be mixed. Most people I have talked to would vote for Bush because he is a very religious man or because he is against abortion and gay marriages, all of which are religious arguments in a political matter. Why are we so bent on mixing religion and politics when we are also promoting freedom all over the world? One aspect of freedom is freedom of religion. Gay rights and marriages is a strictly religious thing. Allowing gay marriages doesn’t mean the religious institution has to marry people, but those that want to can and also have state-based marriages to allow them civil rights.
Again, in the best “free” country on earth, why wouldn’t people have a right to choose their religious beliefs without penalizing their civil rights?
Scott, where do you get that crime rates are twice that of the US? I was convinced it was the opposite.
Looks to me like you were just handed your butt. I enjoyed the response to your whining by real, and yes, educated people. I proudly live in a red state you know the state that elected W. Go Ohio you make me proud. Here are my stages of non grief, 1) thank heaven that we will not have to look at Longface and his wacked out crazy wife. 2) Gloat, yea I said gloat,3) repeat step 2 over and over and over and over…...This coming from a red-stater with a college degree and my own business. Thanks for trying, and failing to call me stupid.
Paul O’Brien asks….........
“What proof can you offer that Fox News viewers are more ignorant of current affairs than viewers of other news sources?”
What better proof could there be than the level of ignorance displayed in the majority of responses to this piece?
“He that doth not know those things which are of use for him to know, is but an ignorant man, whatever he may know besides.”—Tillotson.
Tuck you! (as they say in Fexas).
This essay seems like a blueprint for preaching to the choir. Come on progressives, challenge yourselves! Drop that smug attitude; become “intellectually curious” about the Red counties, and figure out what we have to offer them.
I don’t feel sorry for you for the punishment your writing is taking in the comments section. You certainly had it coming by deciding to name-call the side that happened to win this election by a clear margin.
I voted for Kerry, but understand those who voted for Bush did so for what they believe are the best motives. They believe the war in Iraq is a humanitarian act consistent with recognizable moral values. They believe that the media is aggressively trying to change the culture in America faster than they feel comfortable with. They believe Bush embodies the kind of mindset needed to protect the country from the Islamic jihad that has been declared against all of us, not just “Jesusland.”
The way for Democrats and progressives to regain credibility and trust sufficient to win important elections again is, first, to stop demonizing or mocking those who hold those views. They are not dupes, nor intoxicated by “The Passion,” nor corporate tools. They aren’t nearly as different from you and me as you might think. Many of these people voted for Bill Clinton in the past, and voted for Democrats down the ticket this time (see the splits in Nevada, for example).
They don’t want to see the Democrats be obstructionist; they want alternative ideas. I am convinced that what beat Kerry this time was the fact that few people could parse from all his rhetoric an alternative vision of protecting America, or improving its economy. Why would you expect people on the fence to vote for a candidate who won’t clearly articulate his positions? It doesn’t make a voter a dupe or a neanderthal if they ask that their candidates define where they stand, and what they would do differently, in plain English. Had Kerry done so, I think he could’ve won. Let’s face it, he was a poor candidate, who admittedly got better as the year progressed, but still went into election day having made only a weak case for himself.
So if you want to fight back, sure, you can organize all you want, but first make sure you know what you’re organizing ABOUT, and make sure it’s an agenda that doesn’t insult the intelligence of the voters you need to win over.
I have serious misgivings about the conservative social agenda, but that wasn’t my priority in this election. The terrorists brought the fight to us in spectacular fashion, and I feel strongly that the right thing to do is fight back with all of our power. The President has done this in the kind of bold fashion that few other leaders would have undertaken. We’re now changing the world for the better, and it’s a risky, costly enterprise. It requires a level of fortitude that the other nations of the world—and a large minority of our own citizens and leaders—simply can’t muster. Thank goodness the majority sees and supports the necessity, and realizes that the social issues can be sorted out after the priorities are dealt with.
Clearly, almost all the negative comments to this artcile were written by the same vitriolic dude using different monikers.
Never drink and post, my man.
It seems to me that people are rehashing what they’ve been posting for the past year. The Election is over, and it’s been proven that there is a huge population in the states that prefers willed ignorance to facts. That’s a fact of life now. My suggestion? let all your derision out at these backwards boobs that really are a-scared of them homeysexuals marryin’ and them that think them terrarists is lookin to attack Alabama next you know.
They can win all the elections they want, it doesn’t matter anymore, let them fck the country up so badly that in 20 years time nobody will be able to recognise it. After all the EU is rapidly overtaking the States as the pre-eminent economic superpower…let these idiots reign supreme. They’re just signing their own death warrant.
We still have the culture folks, literature and art and music, the things that make America truly great still belong to the progressives…
Mike, it’s Mark:
Hmmm. We are both fortunately in the “better of the two-Americas” espoused by Senator Edwards. The health care, reliable pension system, ect. are great for both of us. My civil rights have never been violated either. Enjoy your non-third world clean environment. The Kyoto Treaty must be really dumb or the U.S.A. would have signed it.
1) How can someone who watched a documentary named “The Endurance” make a hypo? My right index typing finger has been submerged in ice water for 15-min. as appropriate punishment :)>
2) The Bill of Rights has always been under assault. The Patriot Act is a crown jewel. On July 4, 2004 President Bush gave a speech on the capitol steps at Charleston, West Virginia. A young married couple from Texas was arrested and removed from the public audience. Do you know why? Reference to Amendment I for “right of the people peaceably to assemble”.
3) I totally agree about Kennedy-Nixon.
4) Some say taxes. Some say Texas. Some say potatoes. Some say potahtoes. We’ll work the whole thing out…or some of us will say, “God bless the Queen”, while holding a maple leaf.
Dear Dan you should consider reading what the framers actually meant when they were talking of freedom of religion. Freedom of religion is not the same as freedom from religion. No serious scholar would deny our founders were profoundly religious men for the most part, especially by todays standards. In fact many of them argued that without religion the Republic would not last. You should look into it. Facinating stuff. You think you lost the election because more than half the electorate is ignorant uninformed bigoted bible thumping morons, mmmmmm seems to me this outlook says a great more about you than it does us.
Dan, Canada does have a higher crime rate than the US (or so I’ve read on a conservative blog; looked sincere enough, I’ll believe it), but the US has a higher murder, rape, and armed robbery rate. Furthermore, the states within the US that have the most crime and violence are the “get tough, inject’em good” Red states.
Republicans who want to believe that Democrats waged a perfect campaign this year and still lost have been become too drunk with euphoria to think straight. First of all, the Dems had an uncharismatic Massachusetts senator who waged a dismal campaign right up until the final month, when the finally spoke out against Iraq and got a boost from the polls. However, exit polls showed that most voters made up their minds long before the final month, when Kerry was off windsurfing while letting his overemphasized Vietnam credentials be slandered. Second, the 527 effort was big but disorganized. Various special interest groups could identify voters with a specific issue but could not connect the dots from local issues to Kerry (under the tax code, 527’s are unaffiliated which means they can’t campaign for Kerry, not technically. The GOP machine was far more streamlined.) ACORN, for example, had a huge hand in the Florida minimum wage ballot initiative; but that’s it. They campaigned for minimum wage, they got minimum wage. Clearly, overreliance on 527’s was not a good idea.
Step 4 of your article, Ms. Douglas, carries the wrong connotation. Republicans are “questioning” the moral mandate argument because they want their entire agenda to be awarded a mandate, not just gay marriage. Charles Krauthammer already tried his hand in “debunking” this by pulling an Ohio number straight out of his disingenuous ass. He claimed that Bush’s vote totals grew the least in the 11 states with the gay marriage initiative and thus the moral mandate was false, but he completely made up a number saying Bush expanded his Ohio turnout by 1 percent, when it was really 19 percent. Furthermore, exit polls clearly state that the voters whose primar y concern was the economy, Iraq, education, or healthcare, favoured Kerry by huge numbers; the very same areas where Republicans are now trying to say Bush’s policies have been awarded a mandate. Terrorism, character, and gay marriage won the Republicans the election.
Democrats made significant gains at the state level, especially in the West. These and the campaigns of certain Dem senators should be where the DNC and the DLC should be looking to. The Salazar brothers between them took two seats away from Congressional Republicans “despite” being unabashedly pro-gay marriage, pro-choice, and environmentalist, by evoking strong economic populism. Russ Feingold won in a landslide in Wisconsin, a swing state that Kerry just barely managed to carry, “despite” being one of the most strongly liberal senators that voted both against the war and against the PATRIOT act. Kerry’s flip-flopper image clearly cost him much-needed political points.
Also, Democrats who blame the youth for not showing up must realize they can’t just flick them on and off every 2 or 4 or 6 years, whenever they need them at their beck and call. The liberal movement must be like the conservative movement; on, every day of every week of every year. Kerry did nothing whatsoever to court the youth vote, apart from vaguely speculating about the prospect of a draft. Key constituents, especially young, unmarried women, were similarly neglected.
And on a final note… “crabby liberal hags”? What part of the fact that the only age group to go with Kerry was the young vote (18-29) do you not understand? Perhaps you’re living in your Weekly Standard, Free Republic world where you believe all the hype about conservative insurgency in college campuses. (And hopefully not some astounding, roundly rejected pseudo-intellectual garbage along the lines of Howe and Strauss.) First, conservative student leaders and newspapers have been receiving financial aid from foundation donors like the Carnegie Foundation for decades; prior to Howard Dean, the only such national program for liberals was Progressive Majority, I believe. Second, the litmus test to which campus liberalism is being measured against, the heady days of the late 60’s, is a thoroughly stupid one. Bring back the draft, and get about 40,000 more young men killed. Then we’ll see how this generation measures up to those oh-so-radical Boomers. The youth, who have nowhere near the same hangups about gays and abortion that the older generation does, trend Democratic, not Republican.
So, when does the anti-religious backlash really begin? I’ve only been mildly insulted so far for my faith. Come right out and show your disdain.
hmm… somewhere in the midst of my barely organized rant, I forgot to comment on the article. On that, I have to say we’re not going to go anywhere by calling anyone dunces or Neanderthals. The Democrats’ biggest problem is one of image; cosmopolitan elitists and egghead academics sitting on their self-appointed thrones, telling average, hard-working people what to do. Insulting 51% of your country’s population will only reinforce that.
The only part of the article I can say is of value is the emphasis on small, local elections. This is where the “bicoastal elitist” image fails, where elections are mostly about policy. To some extent, you guys’ve done a decent job in that regard. Even Salt Lake City has a Democratic mayor, so clearly the Southwest looks promising. Life could be made very difficult for the Republicans if the fastest growing part of the country switches from deep red to swing. (Don’t let Kerry’s loss of New Mexico fool you; Kerry did better than Gore in 8 of 9 states in that region.)
But anyways, I digress. I can’t blame the Righties for reacting the way they did to an essay that could essentially be boiled down to “you guys are dunces”, but yeah, thinking small, grassroots, is imporant.
Hey Mark James,
don’t make me laugh. Look, people are a bit like computers, you can have a good processor, but pretty bad software. You might as well be a neanderthal, and not just because we disagree with you, but because what you believe in is absurdly moronic. You, and many others like you, are living proof that brain washing actually exists.
By the way your president is a mass murderer.
To all you other conservative freaks. Two wrongs never make a right. Greed is NOT good. Fox news is about as fair and balenced as Joseph Goebbels, and goodness and truth will win in the end, despite people like you, and whether you like it or not.
Real democracy is about freedom and truth, and about protecting people from those who would use their positions of privilage to hurt others. Bush is such a total failure, on every level, except perhaps the propoganda war, the war on truth. Conservatives are a bunch of losers. It’s the losers who have to rig the game. And if you think there has been no criminal misbehaviour in this election then you truly do have your eyes welded shut.
You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time. But you can’t fool all of the people all of the time.
What they never told us was that all you ever have to do is fool some of the people all of the time.
You, the loyal followers of George W. Bush are the people who are fooled all of the time. Once people are out of the womb, especially if they are born somewhere other than America, then anything goes with you people. To me the word ‘conservative’ is now completely interchangeable with the word ‘criminal’. It’s criminals who kill people. It’s criminals who lie.
I love freedom, and democracy, and fairness and truth. Which is why I hate conservatives.
Here’s some homework for you (I wouldn’t expect you to take my word for anything). Look up what happened at Nuremburg in Germany at the end of the second world war. Specifically, look up what certain Germans had done to merit being hanged.
It really blows my mind that so many rabid conservatives are reading “In These Times.” What’s up with that? Don’t you have a million religious radio stations and magazines and stuff to pay attention to? Don’t you have some gay bashing to get back to? Please, please, I’d like to hear the reasonable voice of a non-freakishly vicious republican post to this site. If you wanna talk moral values, let’s talk about the moral values of compassion, caring for the poor & the elderly, sharing of wealth. Wanna talk being “conservative” let’s talk “conserving” our environment, our money, instead of raping our forests & giving our money away to corporations. I know the voice of reason is out there somewhere!!!
Remember, republicans won’t win forever. They never have. Someday all of you people who are posting insane sounding, puffed-up, vicious, prideful things to In These Times now will be the losers. Let’s accept that we have to all live together—there WAS NO MANDATE! This country is split in half—people who hate gay marriage and believe that there were WMD in Iraq and people who dont’ care what gay people do and know that the WMD line was a farce. And that is the way it is.
Oh, I love it when liberals refuse to understand the reason their candidates aren’t getting elected! Just keep thinking/talking/acting like this, honey. Your party is intentionally relegating itself to a position of such fringe irrelevance that it may never recover. Secede, by all means. Move to Canada/France/Germany. Ah, sometimes the schadenfreude is soooo delicious I feel guilty…NAAHH!
This from a rag that employs Salim Muwakkil. And they call the right stupid!
I agree; we get nowhere by hiding our progressive agenda. May I suggest:
1. Ads showing our progressive control of what “makes America great” (as noted by neil in the posting above, e.g., the arts: More photos of Piss Christ ought to demonstrate to the uncultured what the progressive arts vision looks like. Jane Smiley’s explanation of the “unteachable ignorance” of the Red States should be posted in all airports in all Red States, to help those idiots come to grips with their stupidity. Eminem could be named Progressive Artist of the Year; his lyrics could be sent in book form to all elementary schools in Red States, so that young children could sing his songs to their parents when they get home.
2. The moronic idea that women in other places would prefer freedom to female castration can be refuted by showing pictures of a 10 year-old having her labia cut off; then you can show pictures of her smiling after the wounds have (physically) healed. See, no big deal!
3. The threat of the Bush theocracy can be illustrated by juxtaposing pictures of the little female castration victim with those of the Bush twins in their inaugural gowns. Obviously, there’s no difference in the female subjects of Islamist vs. Christian religion.
4. It’s silly to think that abortion is a big deal. A series of informational videos showing an actual partial-birth abortion should be sent to every P.E. class in every high school in the country. (It would be expensive, but George Soros probably has enough money left to supply the funding.)I suggest making it personal by having a family member of a staff writer at In These Times undergo the actual procedure, not just some nameless woman. Afterwards, there could be an Abortion Celebration in the ITT office. This way, young girls could see that abortion is a rite of passage, not a problem.
5. In a similar vein, Susan Douglas and the male sperm-donor of her choice could make an embryo, then donate it for “research” purposes. This would graphically illustrate that embryonic stem cell research is nothing important. Recently Brad Pitt was on TV explaining that this kind of research was essential; perhaps he and his wife Jennifer Anniston would donate their first embryo for research? Now there’s something to be proud of!
Just a few ideas to help the “progressive” cause…
Very very sincerely,
Julie
In the wake of this election I’ve been hearing a lot of talk of “both coasts,” “either coast,” and so on, suggesting that there are only two coasts in America. Have these people ever seen a map? This geographic ignorance is a prime example of how out of touch with “Middle America” the media are.
Ha Ha, listen to that loser Max Godwin. Keep up the good work, Max. Insulting everyone who disagrees with you is a great way to advance your platform. Do you have any idea how funny it is to us winners to listen to pathetic whiners like you bitch and cry about how you hate conservatives and how you’re convinced we cheated? The time-worn Hitler analogies would be good for a laugh if they weren’t so unoriginal. We know what the Nuremburg Trials were, and your analogy falls flat. Are you suggesting that us evil conservatives will be punished the same way for supporting Bush? You liberals a real tolerant crowd. And let’s see some evidence of “criminal misbehaviour” in the election. Goddammit you are one sad case.
You people can have your laugh at the expensive of the democratics now. And you can make all the self righteous statements regarding kerry;s flip-flopping, waffling, etc. but the other half of this country will get the last laugh. WAIT AND SEE! No need to explain anything to you, you won’t agreed, anyway. But, remember the word CULT!!!! Remember Hitler!!!! Remember Stalin!!!! Remember your vote in this election when your pocketbook stop running over!
Neil, “personal character and leadership characteristics” are a matter of opinion. The past of both men, including the DUI of W, the Vietnam atrocity charges of Kerry and a host of private moments, were the stuff of bloggers and emails circulated throughout the nation and scrutinized in a year long campaign. What many saw and remembered in W was not his admittedly poor performances in the made for television debates or sometimes substandard grammar, but the private moments, times with wounded soldiers, decisiveness when criticized and even ridiculed for his positions, and an unquestioned desire to put America first instead of trying to win a global popularity contest. No President is perfect, mistakes have and will be made, but in the end a majority of Americans made a good choice and saw W as a good man and leader for our nation. I believe that someday, when Bush is remembered by thoughtful historians freed from the hysteria of the Michael Moore types and looking at organized terror as a thing of the past, he will be thought of as one of the upper tier of Presidents, and maybe even a great one.
Julie, you are a perfect moron. Ever heard of people like Thoreau? Kerouac? Hemingway? Raymond Carver? how about Jasper Johns? Jackson Pollock? Edward Hopper? Grant Wood? Ever heard of Jazz? how about Folk? a little thing called rock and roll? What made america great was the arts, not it’s politics (which has a checkered history to put it mildly)
see I didn’t realize that by giving a country over to a religious majority (like Iraq) will curtail religious extremism…I guess when freedom is on the march religion hides in fear?
oh, and I forgot that all leftists think having an abortion is a fun way to spend a saturday afternoon.
and I’m not sure if you realize this Julie, but us leftists really want to have factories of permanently pregnant women so we can keep harvesting stem cells for our nefarious plot to rid the world of Alzheimer’s
(maybe you’ve never had somebody taken from you by Alzheimer’s, but I have, and it fcking sucks.) Do you think maybe using a tool that was going to be THROWN IN THE FCKING GARBAGE OTHERWISE might be a good idea?
you’re a perfect twit, an idiot. You’re a waste of human potential.
S, are you really telling me that the american people voted for one guy cause he was better at photo-ops than the other guy? If so, may god help us all…
listen, a super-intendent can stand in front of his burning building and tell his tenants it’s not on fire all he wants, it doesn’t change the fact that it IS on fire. Bush can keep saying the war on terror is going great all he wants, the fact is it isn’t. Iraq is a quagmire, no WMDs, over 100,000 dead Iraqis and over 1200 dead americans. the other two parts of the axis are a much greater threat (hell North Korea ACTUALLY has nukes, and Iran is closer than Iraq was) but the name of the game there is diplomacy? Why was diplomacy not an option in Iraq? Why did we have to go in alone, and forget the rest of the world, hell even George Sr. at least understood the need for a real coaltion. In history? Bush will go down as one of the biggest bumbling presidents, his claim to fame will be presiding over the “Oil Wars” and being the president that saw the economic power slip from the states to the EU. Great president…I think not.
Neil, well written, albeit misguided! Let’s let history judge. I am always amused to read some of these things, and wonder if similar perspectives had prevailed would we have seen these headlines: “FDR’s Lapses Lead to Pearl Harbor Tragedy”, “Chamberlain’s International Appeasement Summit Applauded by World Leaders”, “Reagan’s Call to Tear Down Berlin Wall Offends Russians”, “Normandy Invasion Disaster-Tanks Founder, France Remains in Axis Hands”, “Lincoln’s Arrogant and Self-Righteous Moralism on Slavery Offends Slaveholders.” You get the drift.
I do hope Ms. Douglas considers taking a class on statistics. Her assertion that 60% of voters approved either civil unions (35%) or gay marriage (25%)is boneheaded. If 65% of the respondents said no to civil unions, then 38% of that 65% would have had to say yes to gay marriage in order to reach the 60% approval rating Douglas touts. I realize there are probably a few folks out there who would be pro- gay marriage while anti-civil union for nuanced legal reasons; but the vast majority who say no to civil unions are not conversely cheering on gay marriage.
As for her assertion that 55% of people support keeping abortion legal, the internals of that fact reveal that the majority also support significant parameters for legal abortions, a concept that is anathema to the liberal establishment.
I find it interesting that even as Ms. Douglas excoriates the majority for retaining President Bush, she touts majority thinking to support her positions on gay unions/marriage and abortion. Now, Susan, you can’t have it both ways: either the majority of voters are all a bunch of boobs or we are all enlightened neolibs!
okay, then just prove to me how killing over 100,000 iraqis is going to make them like America more and not create more terrorists?That’s just flawed logic.
And the fact remains, there was no justifiable reason to go to war in Iraq, there just wasn’t. You can say now that regime change was the reason, but Rumsfeld himself said early on in the debate that it wasn’t about regime change.
(p.s. that one about Pearl Harbour probably should’ve been a real headline :)
Just so y’all know where I stand: I’m an Independent who probably leans Libertarian and Green Party in equal amounts, I voted for Kerry because I think that Bush’s foreign, domestic, and environmental policies are causing much more harm than good - in both America and in the world of which we are a part, and I’m a medical student in naturopathic medical school because I want to spend my life doing things that can really improve life for all of us. I’m not sure why so many of my fellow Americans spend so much time arguing about whether Democrats or Republicans are right when there are so many real problems to solve in the world that need focus and dedicated attention. (What about a constitutional amendment making it illegal for children to starve to death in the same city where we are paying our elected public servants outrageous retirement benefits?) Why don’t both parties stop trying to figure out “what it takes to win” and just start working towards “what it takes to make a better world”? It seems to me that if that is what our political leaders are really doing, then we will all be winners all of the time, regardless of who is in office. And, for a change, we might have some really appealing candidates running for public office.
I know I might as well be saying this to a brick wall but we didn’t go over there and kill 100,000 innocent Iraqis. Even your candidate agreed there was intelligence supporting the decision, and although I know I will be labeled an idiot, I still believe we may never know the whole truth regarding Saddam’s arsenal and intentions. We do know that he was one of the few, if not the only leaders to have actually used WMD’s, on his own people, and that he defied numerous UN resolutions. Do you trust him? War results in innocent casualties, and if your test is that there can’t be any, you are naive. I don’t claim that all Iraqis love us or that the war has gone exactly as planned, although certainly there is much more “good news” than is reported. But when Iraq utimately emerges as a more moderate and democratic state after a period of normal instability after change of a 30 year regime, and North Korea and Iran think twice, I think history will not dismiss it as an “oil war.”
Posted by dzzrt Ratt on November 22, 2004 at 7:14 PM
___________
Nice post.
S,
There have been countless bloody dictators in the world that America has turned a blind eye to. In fact the current situation in Darfur and Bush’s inaction further erodes his credibility as an leader that seeks to better the world. This is an oil war and everybody knows it, any other justification is just that, a justification. The truly disheartening part is that he is couching his actions under benevolent auspices of ridding the world of evil (evil, funny idea that, a large part of the world would call America evil..that’s the problem with moral absolutism, it leads people to think they are right and everybody else is wrong). To simply say “aren’t you glad Saddam is not in power anymore” is not enough.
” After all the EU is rapidly overtaking the States as the pre-eminent economic superpower…” Posted by neil on November 22, 2004 at 10:02 PM
I guess neil missed the EU report last week stating the the EU’s long-term economic prospect for growth is less than 1%.
———
threads like this always degrade into Iraq and abortion.
I have several relatives and personal friends in Iraq right now. Marines, airmen and soldiers. My nephew is an electricians wiring houses for the first time. He works with a Corps of Engineers team that’s installing plumbing. For the first time.
A friend in Fallujah tells me how Iraqis left thank you notes for the liberation of their city from the Sharia terrorists.
Applications for marriage are up dramatically in Iraq.
These reports go on and on—stories of thankfulness, hope. If all you watch are TV news, you are not getting the full story. But at least it feeds your anger and hatred. Gets you worked up into a foaming lather. Ready to scream.
The funny thing about liberals who constantly screech about Bush being Hitler is that they appear just like the creming crowds in Triumph of the Will.
Hey Vernon,
this is where I got the idea that the EU is on the rise
http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2004/11/15/europe/index.html
btw - Sharia terrorists? I hadn’t heard that term before, Islamic Holy Court Warriors? Or was that a typo?
Hhmmm. Interesting how it only takes a “moron” to elicit a truly hysterical rant from a girlie-man. (Does “n.t.” stand for “no testosterone”?)
I don’t have time to respond to all of your ...ummm…issues as I just got back from a cruise and I need to unpack. However, let me say that that it is the people of this country (not the “arts”) that make it great. It’s the firefighters, the mothers, the meter readers, the cowboys, the carpenters, the ministers, the soldiers, the singers, the clerks at Walmart, the kids at McDonald’s, the executives, the entrepreneurs, etc. To particularize: As long as you progressive elitists think that Jack Kerouac is “greater” than Pat Tillman, you will keep losing elections.
Finally, I may be a twit but I’m a twit with a Ph.D. and I, unlike you, am soooo happy!
Even more sincerely than before,
Julie
Julie,
so smug aren’t you? One little problem with your argument though:
It’s the firefighters, the mothers, the meter readers, the cowboys, the carpenters, the ministers, the soldiers, the singers, the clerks at Walmart, the kids at McDonald’s, the executives, the entrepreneurs, etc.
ummm…if what makes your country truly special is that it is populated by people, then you’re in for some rough times.
What is with all the ignorant Republicans leaving comments? Isn’t this a liberal news media? I have a feeling that Billy Graham told them all to log on to In These Times website and leave their conservative mark on the comments section, for the sake of Jesus Christ. It’s funny how they accuse democrats of putting beliefs ahead of facts in the election, when all of their votes were cast based on who “believed” in the same God as them.
Amen Brother Edgar! I guess we could do the same on Conservative websites, but I hear reading those pages is injurious to your mental well-being :)
Randolph,
I’m not insulting everyone who disagrees with me, just conservatives. The second you say something interesting or truthful, we can have a conversation.
Look, if you support George W. Bush then you’ve already taken yourself out of the realm of informed debate.
My rant was about more than the presidential election. It was about the take over of this country by the extreme right wing. The comparisons to the Nazi’s do not have to be original to be true, and if the Nuremberg rules were applied to Bush he would be hanged, it’s as simple as that.
Yeah, write back and tell me what a loser I am, while you support a mass murderer.
Seventeen thousand civillians are dead now because of Bush and his followers (and that’s just a count of those deaths reported in the media). That, for those of you who become number blind at times like these, is more than five world trade centers.
You may dispute my exact figures, but you know a lot of people have been killed in Iraq. On the other hand, if you believe this was a bloodless war then you probably also still believe in Santa Claus.
The point is, one Iraqi illigally killed is too much. Iraq was not a direct, or even an indirect, threat to us. There were no links with Al Queda, in fact Saddam and Bin Laden were sworn enemies. This is a matter of public record.
The reason we democrats keep repeating this stuff is in the hope that the not too badly indoctrinated conservatives around us will eventually wake up and smell the coffee. The unprovoced invasion of another country is wrong, it always has been and always will be. And for Bush to let the real bad guy, Bin Laden, get away was inexcusable.
I’m sorry, but in voting for George W. Bush you’ve labelled yourself an imbecile. Either that or you simply support the murder of other people for no good reason.
Listen, in the long run nature will simply deselect you guys. Civilisation has been progressing for the last four thousand years, and despite occasional set backs, things carry on getting better and more coherent. People who in any way support this are called progressives. People who in anyway resist this are called conservatives. Nature will eventually deselect you, assumming you don’t get to blow up the whole planet first.
So call me all the names you like, to be a conservative is to be an anti-human, because it is human to grow, and nurture, and co-operate with other human beings. It is human to show empathy and understanding. It is human to take responsibility for your own well being and the well being of those around you. There is no conflict there, except the one imagined by insecure conservatives.
I call you guys morons, not because I want to insult you, but because I truly believe it to be the case. Stupid is as stupid does. I don’t care how many of you have been to college. You can’t vote for a man like George W. Bush and lay any claim to being intelligent. Either that or you are all sociopaths, who don’t even care about your own well being, not to mention that of others. I don’t know, I really don’t. Evil, or stupid, I must admit I cannot make any other sense of your positions.
Goodness will win in the end. And if that worries you then keep on voting for George. When that man starts being able to string a sentance together, or stops invading other countries, then maybe I will become a little more moderate in my views. Until then, conservatives everywhere who voted for Bush deserve contempt and distrust.
Stop invading other countries. Start catching real terrorists. Stop running up astounding deficits. Stop planning to impose your values on the rest of us. Then, and only then will you have the whole of this country behind you.
I wonder if any of these Republicans and Bush supporters have ever step foot out of this country and visited another country, and experienced another culture? The problem with most Americans, particularly the right-wing conservatives, is their belief that America is the greatest country in the world and Christianity is the greatest religion in the world and anybody who is not an American or a Christian is weak, or wrong, or evil, or whatever. Military and financial power aside, if we’re talking merely about “quality of living”, the United States is “okay”. it’s not the worst country. It’s not the best country. Same goes with Christianity. It is just one religion out of many, none being better or more correct than the others. People in other countries get along just fine, people with other religions get along just fine. And nobody outside of America would agree that the US is the best country in the world. In fact, if you take the population of Earth as a whole, there would be far more people in the world who DON’T think the USA is the best country than the number of people who do. Usually, if you’ve experienced another country or culture, you realize that this country is just a piece of a jigsaw puzzle known as Earth. No better or more important than any other piece. It’s when you start imposing your thoughts and beliefs and culture on other people that problems arise. It’s what is happening in Israel and Palestine. It’s what is happening in Sudan. It’s what we are doing in Iraq. And it’s what will eventually cause another civil war here in the USA. I’m sure any conservative who reads this will tell me to “go to Canada”.....which will prove that they just don’t get it.
Good call, Max
Edgar,
I totally agree with you. Funny thing about these last two elections, in areas where there are high concentrations of people (like cities, which also generally are more multicultural) the people voted everwhelmingly Democrat. I think that says alot about the state of affairs. Fortress America will be your downfall, the world isn’t “us vs them” or at least it shouldn’t be.
You’re keeping me in stitches, Max. I think my favorite theory of yours is that Bush would be executed if he was tried at Nuremburg. Explain, please. Max, people like you are entirely incapable of learning because you refuse to acknowledge that people who disagree with you might have good reasons. You’re close-minded and you’re ignorant if you think anyone who voted for George Bush is stupid.
As for Lefty Canuck, the following statement speaks volumes about your elitism: “Funny thing about these last two elections, in areas where there are high concentrations of people (like cities, which also generally are more multicultural) the people voted everwhelmingly Democrat. I think that says alot about the state of affairs.” Obviously you think people who don’t live in big cities are capable of casting an educated vote. Instead, you seem to suggest, they only vote according their prejudices.
Edgar Frog: what is your point, other than to congratulate yourself for being so “enlightened?” Is there something wrong with never having left your country? Not everybody can afford to. Is there something wrong with thinking that your country is the best in the world? I would argue that any country whose citizens don’t think is the greatest in probably in a lot worse shape than one with nationalistic citizens. I’ve been to several other countries, every one of which I loved, but each confirmed my opinion that the United States is the greatest. So some foreignors may hate us—I don’t give a damn. I don’t know the statistics but I’m guessing that more people emigrate to the U.S. than any other country.
Here’s some advice all of you disgruntled lefties: accept the fact that you lost. Consider that there may be a good reason most of the people in this country disagree with you. Also, keep in mind that the same polls that said most Bush-supporters voted on “morals” are the same polls that showed Kerry winning in a landslide.
Randolph,
what I was suggesting is that when people live in close proximity you see alot less of the NIMBY mentality, which alas is the same mentality that thinks all arabs are the same. Osama, Saddam, whatever…you know, conservative thinking…
Randolph, most of the people in this country DON’T disagree with us. Only three million more people voted for Bush than Kerry, give or take. That’s not a huge majority. That’s not “most” of the country. Keep in mind, there was a time and place when “most” of the country supported slavery and “most” of the country supported burning witches at the stake. The intelligent always defeat the ignorant in the long run. History, incidentally, always remembers the ones who fought back, the ones who stood up for what was right, when “most” of the country was wrong, like abolitionists, for instance. Whether or not Bush has the support of “most” of the country is not what matters. What matters is that this country has a long history of the few defeating the many, and a long history of “most” of the country being wrong in their beliefs. Not to mention that if the founders of this country hadn’t questioned authority and government, we’d all be under British rule. Funny how questioning the government is considered un-American, when America was founded by people who questioned government.
Edgar:
First off, more than half is most of the country. How do you define “most?” Secondly, I didn’t say being in the majority is always being in the right, nor did I say there was anything wrong with questioning the government. What I’m saying is that people like you, Godwin, the author of this article, and the Lefty Canuck should at least entertain that there are valid reasons for voting for Bush instead of writing off people who voted differently from you as stupid, inferior, evil, etc.
Since you don’t seem to believe in democracy (“Whether or not Bush has the support of ‘most’ of the country is not what matters. What matters is that this country has…a long history of ‘most’ of the country being wrong in their beliefs.”), I don’t know how we’re going to find any common ground. That’s fine, all I’m asking is that you respect viewpoints that conflict with your own.
And vice versa.
No Randolph, we are laughing at you, make no mistake.
Q. What’s the difference between George W. Bush and Adolf Hitler?
A. Adolf Hitler didn’t try to dodge the draft.
Q. What’s the difference between George W. Bush and Adolf Hitler?
A. Adolf Hitler had his country behind him.
Q. What’s the difference between George W. Bush and Adolf Hitler?
A. Nothing.
As for the stupidity of conservatives, let me once again illustrate my point with a previously mentioned metaphor. Human beings are a bit like computers, they can have good processors but bad software, or they can have average processors but excellent software. In this comparison the ‘processor’ is your genetic intelligence, that which you are born with, and ‘software’ is how well you’ve been taught the think, how well you use your brain.
So, no matter how good your processors are, when it comes to social issues conservatives have bad software.
It is in this sense I call you stupid.
Neil, take a chill pill. Bush isn’t just attacking dictators without rhyme or reason. Remember it was your sacred UN that sanctioned Iraq and passed countless resolutions against Saddam. Was John Kerry wrong when he said that the world is better off without Saddam in power? And what exactly is an “oil war”? Did I miss our nationalization or confiscation of Iraqi oil? I am so tired of the Halliburton conspiracy theories and “big companies are so bad….....wahhhh” whines. And finally, and this is what truly confuses me…..is that libs often say that there are no moral absolutes…....as, of course, a moral absolute.
Max, the persistent attacks by some on evangelical Christians and other conservatives as ignorant and irrational are disappointing. Whether you like it or not, Christianity and Judeo-Christian concepts underlie much of our law and Christian adherents founded many of our nation’s leading institutions and have served with distinction. The notion that private morality cannot influence law and public policy is absurd. Why do we have murder or securities laws? Because we collectively agree that the wrongful taking of innocent life is morally wrong and uncivilized, and to cheat others is also wrong. Reasonable, and intellgent, minds can differ on other issues, such as abortion rights, euthanasia, gay rights, stem cell research and other “social issues.” I believe most Americans, even the highly religious, are centrists and find shades of gray on many of them. When the left realizes and accepts that and nominates candidates who share that view, instead of calling people who disagree with them names, maybe there will be a few more blue states.
Susan,
Take a chill pill! I am pro-choice, do not attend church, have never thumped a bible, and voted against the marriage amendment. I am also Republican and voted for Bush. You can’t honestly think that anyone who voted for Bush is just a clone of any other Bush voter. We are certainly smart enough to know when we read something from a mean spirited, condescending sore loser. Your arrogance is tiresome and self defeating.
On another note, the article is poorly written. Name calling and whining does not equate with facts and figures. Take a journalism course and learn how to keep to the point without all the embellishments. Insulting the very people that need to be won over to your point of view is childish and ineffective.
Bush won because he was the better candidate.
Better at what? Alienating us from the rest of the world, commiting war crimes that oppose the Geneva Conventions, mispronouncing “nuclear”, drooling during debates, occupying other countries to avenge his daddy, helping the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, sending thousands of American soldiers to die so that he and his buddies can secure all the oil fortune in the world, or all of the above? If so, then yeah, I guess he was the better candidate.
I guess you have already decided to lose the next election.
As a Christian who voted for Kerry, and a Democrat, I am highly offended by your anti-Christian tone and I am sure that if you keep it up you will lose the next election too.
I am one of those who warned the Left, over and over again, over the past two decades, to cut out the anti-Christian rhetoric. Nobody listened, it seems.
The phrase “Bible-thumping” is just one you should delete from your vocabulary for good. It offends me because I love the Bible. If those who pretend to believe in it would actually read it they would come to vote with the Left on many issues (not abortion).
As for “Jesusland” it is an insult to those of us who love Jesus and vote Democratic. I guess now you have decided to alienate us also and have left, on the left, just a few diehard atheist-agnostic-humanists. I am sorry you have made that choice. It is a good way to lose every election down the line.
As an atheist, I find it hard to accept anybody as “intelligent” who believes in an adult version of Santa Claus and makes political decisions based on those beliefs.
But I would use the word “ignorant” when describing somebody who believes that. Not necessarily “stupid”. There’s a difference. Ignorant is believeing in God in general. Stupid is making political decisions based on that belief instead of based on what’s best for the whole of humanity.
Evangelicals fell for the single issue bait and the manufactured image of someone who may actually be sincere in his faith, but horribly misguided in his theology. A living Christian faith demands rigorous examination of daily ethical issues in the context of Christ’s clear and straightforward teaching. Church, faith, morality, truth, values and other such deep words have been co-opted and corrupted by highly motivated, amoral, ruthless people, devoted to exactly the things Christ preached against.
“The Jesus Factor”, as PBS called it, suggested that America ached for certainty. Any certainty. Fundamentalist evangelicalism supplied it. God help America…
Susan:
I understand your grief. However, putting others down and being incredibly condescending is NOT the way to go.
This country is incredibly polarized and needs calm reasoned discussions of our differences and we all need to treat others with respect. I work with a very intelligent lady who cannot comprehend how I could have been a Kerry voter - just as I could not understand how she could be for Bush. We have different world views, but still respect and like each other..
I simply cannot leave this discussion without enlightening the so called intelligent republicans who claim Canada has “outrageous” taxes and a crime rate twice that of the U.S.
For the U.S. .............................
Property crimes - 16,300 per 100,000 population
Violent crimes(which for some reason does not including murder) - 2,260 per 100,000 population
personal federal income tax rates..lowest - 25%, highest - 39%
For Canada…................................
Property crimes - 4,121 per 100,000 population
Violent crimes(including murder) - 963 per 100,000 population(yes, that’s NINE HUNDRED sixty three)
Personal federal income tax rates..lowest - 17%, highest - 31%
From where I’m sitting it looks like the U.S. is witout a doubt the more outrageous of the two.
Edgar, for you to accuse anyone else of ignorance is laughable. Take a look at what you’ve posted. The only thing more hypocritical would be for you to accuse people of being intolerant.
I consider “intolerant” to be bending laws to suit your religious beliefs, and making what you don’t believe in illegal, ie. what the right-wingers are doing with gays and abortion. Don’t use the word intolerant against me when you support the most intolerant leader that the most intolerant country whose majority of citizens believe in the most intolerant religion has ever had. If a Democrat was president, we would not make going to church illegal or praying illegal. It’s intolerance that liberals are trying to fight.
Edgar, your intolerant. Prime example: “I find it hard to accept anybody as ‘intelligent’ who believes in an adult version of Santa Claus.” Bush is the most intolerant president we’ve ever had? How do you know how personally tolerant he or any other president is/was? Most intolerant country? Try Cuba, the Sudan, Libya, and Iran for starters. Most intolerant religion? I would have to cast one vote for radical Islam. As far as I know there’s no Christian counterpart to Al Quaeda, Hamas, and Hezbollah going around the world killing “infidels.” I’ve never heard of any Christian extremist group hijacking airplanes and flying them into buildings for the sole purpose of killing civilians. If you reply that the American military is simply a Christian version of these terrorist organizations then you’re out of your mind.
We will see how everyone feels when a 57 Trillion dollar accumulated debt comes home to roost.
The ONLY reason why GW Bush is still President is because Osama Bin Laden staged a successful attack on America under his watch, and Bush has a lot of highly paid people who successfully turned him into Gary Cooper in the aftermath of this disaster.
And remember, everything Bush does is somehow tied into commercial petroleum interests
Also, we didn’t start the fire. Rush Limbaugh gets that honor. “It’s Clintons Fault” should be etched onto his tomb.
To clarify, I don’t agree with the agressive comments on intelligence that the author portrayed in her article… I simply wanted to say that alot of “right” people are saying the same about “left” people in their comments. Not to say oh since the right does it, its ok for the left to do it.
I do believe that when we talk about “jesusland” we do talk about religious fundamentalists. Now we could enter a debate on the definition of fundamentalism… but I won’t.
The difference between christian extremists (which is different from fundamentalist) and islamic extremism (which includes a rather small proportion of islamic believers as with christian extremists) is that the christians actually are in positions of power in our global economy, if not to say that they rule the world economy, not directly trough religion but close. Christians have to maintain an image. Islmamic people do not. Their followers, their endoctrined people for the most part do not have a TV, and it easy to create hate from economic and social situations happening all over the world. Christian extremists have killed. Assassinations have been perpetrated trough the ages or dicatures or genocides under the rules of chritian extremists. Example: Guatemala. They do a good job at maintaining their image…
On another note, why are we spending ALL our time debating about abortion and gay marriages (or shall we say rights?) when more than 2 billion people in the world live in extreme poverty (note: in 1999, Earth reached a population of 6 billion). And in case most of you don’t know what extreme poverty means: not having enough to eat and drink everyday to develop properly as a human in the US or Canada or western Europe could. Thats rougly 1/3 of the population on this planet. Alot of people in the US suffer from this also… This should be given center stage instead of being relinquished to the background of the “I don’t want to hear about that again!” news column.
I have a few things to say.
First, I am not a Bush supporter but please stop comparisons between Bush and Hitler for the sake of decency.
Second, these comments need to change. Try to recognize that there are many intelligent in every quadrant of the political spectrum. I am a liberal and one of my friends is a conservative and we respect and understand each others’ views even though we disagree with them.
To have a truly intellectual debate, everyone here needs to respect everyone else as a human being and attempt to understand their views, even if you disagree.
“The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function.” - F. Scott Fitzgerald
Hugh,
A brief meditation on the phrase ‘Bible-Thumper’. I think it’s a useful phrase because it describes people who try to push thier private beliefs down the throat of the public. It does not refer to real Christians. A ‘Bible-Thumper’ is usually holier-than-thou, arrogant and dogmatic. Again, as far as I know none of these are real Christian traits. The Christian ethic is a wonderful one, and in my humble opinion the religious right are not really Christians. They give it a lot of lip service, but then support war and destruction.
So, we need the phrase ‘Bible-Thumper’ so we can distinguish between real Christians, who keep it to themselves and just try to live a good life, and right-wing extremists who want their beliefs to dominate everyone elses.
Can this thread be maintained until Nov. 2, 2008? This is a very good discussion. I’ve learned from it. When we just listen to those who say what we want to hear, there isn’t much to learn. While this is a progressive site, the input from conservatives and middle-of-the-roaders adds an opportunity for all of us to understand(not always agree)each other. I’m a progressive liberal and thank God everyday I have this belief as an option. Surely, conservatives feel likewise. I fear that our nation is moving away from our Bill of Rights and is dangerously flirting with a type of mutated theocracy. For the conservatives who tell us to hit the road to Canada or wherever, consider that none of the posters on this site are dumb. We would not be posting if we didn’t care. For some educated, caring Americans to begin losing faith in their own country is profound. Think about what it means to each of you. “Don’t let the door hit you on the way out” may sound real macho, but is the country better off for it? Imagine a country left with only people who agree with you about everything…
Tim
the comparison between Hitler and Bush is an accurate one, and not just a metaphor. In terms of strict international law what George W. Bush did to Iraq was no different to what Saddam did to Kuwait, or what Hitler did to Poland.
So do not talk to me about decency.
I also agree strongly with your F. Scott Fitzgerald quote. But I would add that there is no point in holding opposing views in your head unless at some point or other you are able to come to a conclusion. The greatest destroyer of intelligence is polarized thinking. But to never come to conclusions, to never put your feet on solid ground is itself an extreme position. Some shades of grey are very nearly black, and some are very nearly white. Never mistake passion for dogma.
To the person who said “Bible-thumper” is a legitimate, unbiased phrase: You are only proving that you still don’t get it.
I do not know who the current Feminist icon is, maybe there isn’t one, but I remember the day when it was Betty Friedan (probably nobody under the age of 60 has even heard of her). Suppose I called all feminists “Friedan-thumpers.” Would that make them feel good?
Suppose I called all Muslims “Koran-thumpers.” Would that make them feel good about me or my message?
Suppose I called all Jews “Moses-thumpers”? I suppose they would respect me for that.
I am really surprised that you still don’t get it. And if you don’t, I am not going to waste my breath. Just keep losing elections. Maybe even I will vote Republican for the first time in my life.
Hugh
If you are thinking of voting Republican then it is you who has lost it.
I specifically defined the phrase ‘Bible-Thumper’. Did you even read what I wrote? I personally do not think that people are referring to anything other than religeous extremists when they use this phrase. You must know the sort of thing I mean, people who would merrily preach all day about how much of a sinner you are.
I think there is space in the English language for at least one derogatory term that describes these fundamentalists. I do not think it refers to Christians in general, and is a pretty harmless use of words in any case.
By saying that you are thinking of voting Republican because of this you are basically saying that you find this phrase more offensive than the ongoing slaughter of Iraqi civilians.
What sort of Christian are you?
One more thing, to Mark Cartwright.
Having
“a country left with only people who agree with you about everything”
is unfortunately most right-wing extremist’s wet dream.
A lot of people who say they are conservatives are not really and would actually help you out if you were in trouble. They are decent people in other words who have been duped. The remaining hardliners are in the minority and wouldn’t be a problem if it weren’t for their complete domination of the media, television in particular.
Most of the bullshit that comes out of our screens is a lot more subtle than Fox but constantly supports an underlying right-wing message.
Thinking takes energy and perhaps understandably most people rely on the media to hand them their opinions pretty much fully formed. At the very least they look for convenient slogans which they can use as substitues for a real opinion.
The right-wing media is happy to oblige.
This is why it is so hard to talk constructively with a hardline conservative. Most of them are just regurgitating slogans. They don’t know what they’re are talking about. This is also why when you confront them with the facts they studiously look the other way. It’s because they don’t actually have any answers, they only have slogans and sound-bites.
I have pretty much given up trying to have real conversations with these people. If you say something to them which they haven’t ever heard on the telly their automatic assumption is that you’re making it all up.
I pity them really, they have no idea I imagine what it is to think a free thought. We are the fly in their ointment. We are living reminders to them that not every one has drunk the Koolaid.
Neil:
This so-called “culture” you wax rhapsodic about - the “music”, the “art”, the “literature” - is a huge window into what ails America. It really is what the islamics hate about us, and why they want to kill all of us - including you nancy-boy “artists” and culturalists in the “Blue States”. They don’t care which Americans they kill and how many - the more the better. This is what the election of 2004 was all about - the islamic threat to the US, and, for your information, it’s to the death.
I have news for you, sonny, without the Red States and Counties, the South in particular, you would have no freedom whatsoever. Where do you think the majority of US service personnel come from and live? It’s not Manhattan, or Greenwich Village, or Cambridge, Massachusetts, or Beacon Hill, or Wrigleyville, or Hollywood, or Seattle, or Portland. Try South Carolina, Georgia, Kentucky, Texas, Missouri, and, yes, California. These are the guys who are protecting your “right” to denigrate them, who put their lives on the line so you can sit back and tell them how stupid, ignorant, foolish, backward, and deluded they are for voting for President Bush. Well, laddie, we are much, much bigger men than you can ever hope to be, sittng in your little loft, wringing your tiny little wrists and bemoaning your fate. Grow up, boy, there is a big, bad world out there and you can either be part of it, or SDASTFU.
Well,I’m convinced. Having now heard (for the 500th time) how stoooopid we in the Red States
are,I will,from now on,be voting for “progressives” like the Former Twelfth Lady
in ‘08.
Thanks for helping me see the light!
</sarcasm>
Max, I greatly disagree with the war in Iraq but what Hitler did in Poland is not the same.
This is just one of many examples of what Hitler did in Poland.
On June 27, 1941 in the city of Bialystok the German Police Battalion 309 rounded up all the male Jews. They were made to dance for their German capturers. If they didn’t dance well enough their beards were cut off or set on fire. In the hospital, all Jewish patients were shot in their beds. Then the Germans herded the Jews into the city’s main synogogue. There were about 700 people in there. The Jews began to pray as the germans poured petrol all over the building. It was then lit on fire. Men from the police battalion surrounded the synagogue to shoot anyone who tried to escape. 700 people were burned alive and by the end of the day about 2,200 women, men, and children were killed.
Comparing Bush to Hitler is offensive.
Lastly, I do come to conclusions. I have political and personal views on many things. But I also try my hardest to see the reasons behind the other side’s stance. I do not agree totally with any of the parties out there on all the issues.
Tim:
Abu Ghraib prison…..Iraqi museums destroyed…..not to mention the women and children who are terrorized as US soldiers storm into their house in the middle of the night to confiscate “weapons” from their family.
I don’t see how the Bush-Hitler comparison is too far off.
What happenned in that prison is horrible. However, U.S. forces aren’t receiving commands from high officials to systematically kill civilians. The Special Ops were doing a good job in Afganistan dealing with the weapons searching. The problem is when we assign troops that aren’t trained in how to deal with civilians, an airborn division for one example.
I don’t think we should be in Iraq in the first place but…
You also need to have a sense of scale. There are things that happen in wars. Some civilians will be killed, and many of their rights will be violated. I would like to meet the man who can run a war without any civilian casualties or violations of their rights. It is estimated that about 15,000 civilians have been killed because of this war, and that is horrible. BUT about 5,384,000 civilians were killed by German and Soviet forces IN POLAND ALONE.
Once again the Bush-Hitler comparison is off.
Look how negative comments Susan has gotten!
I think this is very funny!
maybe she is out of touch??
I for one, am soooo glad the 53% of America doesn’t agree with this editorial. When is the Democratic Party going to learn that far-left, liberal values just aren’t acceptable to the majority of Americans? I’m a republican, however, I think America would be greatly benifited by having a viable 2nd party…. a 2nd party that actually represents Americans. If this were to come about, and the left would stop grasping at any form of socialism they could, maybe the democrats could win some elections based upon the merits of their positions, and not with “Getting some Secretaries of State on our side next time around” as the author suggests…..which, by the way, sounds a like encouraging voter fraud.
The Party of Whiners…you whine for four years about a stolen election. Now you whine about a total throttling at the hands of a superior party.
It’s not so much the fact (according to you) of Bush being less than intelligent as it is your people acting so cocky and arrogant as you look down on the obvious majority.
Sore losers…there is no better way to expalin this diatribe.
That and the fact you are an obvious liberally educated snob that could not make it as a teacher so you took you editorilizing at a sub par newspaper.
I suggest you find new leaderhip in your party going forward…or just move to Canada. You will be welcome there and we will be happy you are gone.
Carpe Diem, moron!
Tim
the scale is different, but the crime is the same. It is against international law to invade another counrty unless it is to remove another force that has illegally invaded and occupied that country first.
So the Bush people are not pursuing a policy of systematic genocide against a particular racial group but just invading and occuying Iraq in the first place is illegal. An estimated seventeen thousand Iraqi civilians are dead now because of the invasion. That’s murder.
How many deaths was Charles Manson implicated in? Was it three, or six? Well how about Bush’s seventeen thousand. We are taught from childhood not to think of it as the same thing, but if you do think about it, there is no convincing difference. That is why Bush and other senior members of the administration would be hanged if the Nuremberg criteria were applied today. Or is it okay for Americans to act like Nazis but not Germans?
Maybe the crime is just too awful for most conservatives to take in. To really see this simply for what it is, murder. It sounds very dramatic doesn’t it, and I promise you you will not hear this on television.
But think about it. What if it was your little sister who had had her legs blown off? What if it was your mother or farther lying dead in a large pool of blood? People just don’t think about it. They are encouraged not to think about it. They are encouraged to consider the Iraqi’s to have some how deserved it. Well nobody deserves that. Ordinary people, just cut down.
Iraq was not a direct, or even an indirect, threat to the United States of America.
That is a lie, and the suckers who believed it are mostly beyond saving.
Sorry, but Canada already has a new name; its called Northern America. “The United States of Canada” won’t replace it any time soon.
I just couldn’t sit here and read anymore Bush bashing. War is not or will it ever be pretty. My brother and nephew are both war veterans. How is it that you can conviently forget the people killed by their OWN leader. Is their death okay, because it was by their own ruler. Is it okay for Olympic athletes who lose to be locked up and tortured because they lost? Is it okay to cut the hands off Iraqui citizens to be raped by the boys of Saddam? Well, yes to you liberals on the left. Gasssing and torturing people in other countries is fine with you. You fail to get it, humans long for freedom and the left only wants freedom if it is endowed upon them by the all mighty dem’s. My brother is in Iraq..His time to go home was up. He stayed. He asked to stay and help, yes help. Each morning he has thank you letters put on his vehicle from citizens who long to be free. Yes, Iraq is a mess aren’t all wars? I hate war, I despise death and killing, especially when it comes from an Iraqui government. Just open up and tell the truth,it is not the war you decry it is Bush. Just tell the truth. Maybe we can move on if you would be honest. Kerry lost because he is an elitist snob. No message and no core values. I am a registered democrat born and raised one. I hope the party gets it’s act together. Get rid of the people bringing it down.i.e. billy and hilly.
Hey Astounded,
keep buying that party line bubba, and one day it’ll come true! Fight to the death…that’s amusing.
Anyways, my point was, America’s legacy in this world has nothing to do with its politics (especially foreign policy, which is spotty at best) but with what it’s given the world in terms of culture…despite your best intentions it seems sometimes. And I really don’t think that’s elitist, it’s just a fact.
the underlying tone of your response is that it is morally superior not to care about literature or film or music, that being willfully ignorant is the proper way to be. Only “nancy boys” care about that stuff…which is really sad when you think about it.
what I was initially saying was to let the Conservatives have the politics, they’ll run the country into the ground. Instead go out and see a movie, or a live concert, or hey, maybe check out an art gallery or a museum…it might be fun, and in 20 years time when the zealots have destroyed the country (and yes I realize that most Cons aren’t zealots, but they have the power right now in the Republicans..) you can get back to work on restoring the country.
This is probably going to sound a little redundant but here we go…
I am a pacifist with some exceptions. I am fairly liberal and have major problems with this administration including the war in Iraq. I do believe that the U.S. has violated and continues to violate international law in several cases. Unfortunately, that’s not important to most of the people running this country. And I agree with you that Iraq was not a threat to our country. However, we started this war with faulty information that even many of the beloved democrats verified as reason to go to war. Bush was still riding on his post-9/11 power surge.
But you’re still trying to compare Bush and American forces to Hitler and the nazis. I can tell that no matter how much I describe the atrocities committed by German forces in WWII, you are not going to change your mind. I’m not arguing the fact that the war, in the first place, was wrong. However, I am going to argue about how this war is being carried out. Hitler and german military forces in World War II rounded up civilians and systematically tortured and killed them. They were ordered to do this by high officials in the nazi government.
The war in Iraq, although not justified, is being run differently. U.S. soldiers are not rounding up civilians to systematically torture and kill them. But you’re right, civilian deaths are occuring. I’m not arguing with that. No matter how efficient the fighting, there will always be civilian deaths. And I expect that this number will keep going up as the war goes on.
As a final note, I’m not interested in arguing this with you any more. We both agree that the war is unjustified, and that therefor the civilian deaths are unjustified. But there is a difference between a man who went to war, a war that is killing civilians (they all do), on false pretenses and a man who ordered the killing of over 5 million Jewish people. We both agree that Bush is wrong, I am just personally offended that you would compare him to Hitler.
Bravo, Tim. It’s good to finally hear from a liberal with some sanity.
Given the volume and vociferousness of the comments from the right, I would say that you must be right on track.
The problems facing the Democratic Party are not those of progressives. The old guard Dems need to be retired and the party needs to coalesce around core principles. (I purposely avoided the use of the oft misused term “values.”)
As a Democrat I feel sick reading this article and all these posts. My wife is a Republican. We made a deal that I would stomach reading the Wall Street Journal Op/Ed and National Review online if she would read The Nation and In These Times. No progess has been made of course and we continue to cancel each other’s vote out.
But now Susan wants to call my wife “stupid”? All she does is get her news from “Fox”? I’m sorry to be rude but what BS.
It is clear this election could have been won by the Democrats if the freakish ultra-left could have just shut up. You’re like Nader. He screwed us in 2000 and you have screwed us in 04. A bad economy, a terrible war,...what the frick more do you need?
Nader was given campaign funds by the “R’s” (see, I’m a good Molly Ivin’s fan) b/c they knew he would tilt the election. You idiots have done the same. Time for some house cleaning. Go home Susan.
Sincerely, Tork Riem
ps- I just reread my post. I agree with your points Susan. I don’t mean to be harsh. But if you look at the electoral data it is just too clear. The election was held, against all concievable odds we got creamed, and the far left is the reason. Deny all you want. It’s the truth.
A note to everyone except Tim, who doesn’t want to hear it anymore.
The comparison between the neo-cons and the German Nazis is not a metaphor. I feel bad repeating it for those who have no stomach for the truth, but in terms of the first and biggest crime committed, namely the unprovoced invasion and occupation of another country, Bush and Hitler are extrodinarily similar. Once again this is not a metaphor, this is recorded history.
Does anyone know Hitler’s rationale for invading Poland? He basically told the German people that the jews were in control in Poland and were planning to eventually attack Germany. This is a fact. He would often refer to the ‘jewish warmongers’, and his policy was one of supposed preemption. Sound familiar?
Now obviously Hitler went on to do some extraordinarily evil things, but I feel so strongly about the similarlities that do exist to Bush that I have to say it. For instance, Hitler was financed to the tune of billions by a group of rich industrialists headed by a guy called Fritz Thyssen. The second world war was initially, among other things, a war of plunder. Do not take my word for this, do your own research.
So much evil is committed in the name of ‘but this is different’. It’s not different. We are on an incredibly slippery slope. One person’s death as the result of a conservative fantasy is one too many, but thousands? Bush was in control, he was the president, he chose to do this. He is not a strong man, he is a man with very little self control. And he is also now one of the greatest mass murderers in American history. The only real difference between Bush and Hitler is the body count.
This is not a justified war. It’s a war that certain people in power wanted to fight. It wasn’t a war they had to fight.
Meanwhile the genuine terrorists are making videos in Pakistan.
By the way if Bush somehow didn’t know what the result of his actions was going to be then what the hell is he doing anywhere near the White House? I feel literally sick when I think about murderers getting away with it. This is not right, there is something really weird going on.
We are virtually all losers in this election. Roughly half of us know it, roughly half us are oblivious, and two percent are laughing at the rest of us.
Bottom Line: Libs LOST almost all the way around. You might be a redneck if you voted for a WINNER! You might be a do-nothing reporter if you voted for a WHINER! You got 4 more yrs to whine. Of course you are very good at it. It is only the perverts in the cities that voted for ole lurch and guess what? YOU LOST GET OVER IT. YOU ARE LOSERS. Of course you will never get it. To bad you can’t get a REAL job. Hey you know how to starve a reporter? Put their check under their workboots
Hey how about that man named edgar Frog. With a name like frog you would think he would hide or change his name. Who would take that moron serious. He is probably susans old man
Wow you libs really are taking it hard. Calm down you just got 4 more years. Don’t work yourself into a frenzy. ( I use the term work loosly)
Tork,
I disagree with the far left being the reason. They vote for what they believe in as I’m sure you do. Nader DID not accept funding even if it was or not offered by the republicans. Some people do believe in strategic voting and instead of voting for Nader, voted for Kerry. You got some and you also didn’T get some. The fact is that the “ultra-left” as you call it does not believe in what kerry stands for.
To all those that think people who aren’t republican or are mean lefties should go to Canada,
The fact is that all the “lefties” as the “righties” are americans. Whether you like it or not, both parties want to make this country a better place. Whether some are too agressive about it is another question though. Maybe it’s because they feel threatened, sadened… fear can fuel aggression!
To Hitler fans,
It is not that realistic to compare Bush and Hitler for the simple reason, they think differently and we live in a world with completely different dynamics, which actually creates a radically different problem.
NOTE: The geneva convention and co. were create for a reason… a HISTORICAL reason… to avoid reoccurrences of tragedes (WWars). The fact that the US seems to be above these conventions is beyond me.
Not changing my comment above, if we want to continue in the hitler/Bush parallel. Take the CIA. It is secretive. OK. Why is it above the law? It is supposed to serve the people and the state, yet it is above them. Why?
Cowboy,
What scares us about “just 4 more years” is looking back at “just the past 4 years”. So much can be accomplished in 4 years. My goal in life is to leave this world seeing that it is better, for my son, my daughter (though I don’t have any children yet) for my friends, for my neighbours, for the nice people that accepted me in their house in Guatemala for 2 weeks. Some people do whine. But your comment seemed to me like whining, except, whining about whiners. But I will not comment on your attitude because it isn’t my place to do so. The fact is that whether the election was won or not, people with different opinions live side by side every day. For that simple reason I think it is important to be open to what others are living trough, what their opinions are and so and so forth. And this is not a one-sided attitude. It goes for the lefties and the righties. Look at yourself, your convictions and how you react to opposite or very different convictions. Then look at the person with the different conviction and how she reacts and how both are convinced to the same degree, that what they say is true. If both took time to discuss, be open and not pushy, I think this world progress faster. We all think differently. Talking helps us understand how others think.
It is still difficult for me to this day to be calm and talk calmly to people with “right” ideas for the simple reason that what is happening in the world disgusts me, not to a point of despair, but to a point where action needs to undertaken to change what is wrong. Yet already the word “action” seperates us by a mile and your opinions and influence in the world create a seemingly infinte wall for us. That wall is the source of the friction imo.
To all the conservatives out there.
When people agree with you they are excercising their right to free speech. When people disagree with you they are ‘whiners’. Well the ‘whiners’ are here to stay, forever, and the truth will eventually speak for itself.
To all those who voted for Bush, with all your predictions about the future of the democractic party. KEEP ON VOTING FOR BUSH! We don’t need your vote. There are a lot more people out there who are eligable to vote than actually did. We will eventually mobilise them all, despite the right-wing dominated media.
Bush supporters are just the cold hearted side of this country and we will eventually consign you to the garbage can of history.
So go back to sleep, you won. Four more years of death, destruction and record deficits. Enjoy it while you can.
Freedom and truth will win in the long run. I just pray you don’t get to murder too many children people before then, be it in Iraq, Iran or whereever.
Godwin, when people disagree with you they’re beneath contempt. And you do need our vote. Have you noticed the throttling that Democrats suffered in this election? Judging by the beating you took in the White House, Senate, and House of Represenatives I’d say you could probably use some more votes. Maybe P’ Diddy’s next “Vote or Die” campaign to recruit deadbeats will be more successful. Maybe Democrats should keep promising crack to winos in return for a vote like they did in Cleveland.
Let’s talk about the national debt, or tax giveaways to corporate and rich Jesusland, or the cronyism, deceit, or fingerpointing, and NOT accepting blame for any mistakes! Not only the unbeleivable debt underminig the dollar, now social security is next. After Reaganism, now runaway jingoism, us versus them attitudes, we seem to have forgotten democracy. My trust of capitalism, in God we trust, and the incredible hypocritical American public has turned to cynicism. We have NO HOPE if Tom Delay,cheerleading Cheney talking out the wrong side of his mouth, and a president that doesn’t even read the paper can say anything and be believed is a joke! Remember dubya has been a failure in just about every business. Why are we even surprised we are in such a state? I find it impossible to be to be hopeful. Is anarchy far behind?
I am going to use Max’s reasoning here. In a nutshell Bush BAD…... Saddam GOOD. Do I have that correct? He still fails to understand that Sadddam was killing his OWN people. You know that lovely (ha ha) despot. The one in uhm oh jail. It is okay for HIM to murder and rape his own people, but GOD (sorry liberals for the God term). Please do not report me to the ACLU.Let Bush go into Iraq after Saddam ignored 14, yeah 14 resolutions to comply,and he is now the guy Max idolizes you know Adolf. Ask Max he quotes his name enough. What we should do is let Saddam out of jail, open up his palaces and then install him as supreme dictator of Iraq. I mean really. so what if he was killing woman and children, just turn the other cheek right? The maybe the left can go and run for positions in his new duely elected hahaha government. Coffin companies will really be doing a good business once Saddam is in power again. Maybe then we can move on with our lives. Ha no such luck.
This last post by Robin shows the problem in a nutshell,and why so many people voted for Bush.They forget the facts that don’t agree with them.They forget that we(America),support ‘ruthless dictators’ when it’s convenient for us to,we supported Sadaam when it was convenient.They forget that the reason we went into Iraq in the first place was because they were an imminent threat to us because they had WMD’s.Well,we now know that was a LIE.At least those of us that remember.They forget that we gave free passes to the Bin Laden family,so they would’nt have to face the repurcussions for his actions(family ties are as importent in the Muslim world as they are here,maybe more so).I still don’t quite understand that one,other than to speculate that Michael Moore was right,and there really was and is financial ties between the Bushes and the Bin Ladens. Speaking of Michael Moore,I’ve heard a lot of noise about how his movie,F.9/11,was full of lies and hype,but I’ve yet to hear any facts to dispute any of the claims he’s made.Only that he’s fat.But I digress,my point is that our thoughts don’t progress past the latest sound byte,the latest piece of propaganda thats fed to us through the ‘media’.The quote,‘liberal media bias’,unquote, is nothing more than a smoke screen to cover up for the fact that the ‘media’ does’nt report anything that would significantly rock the boat.Does the ‘liberal media’ report that 100,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed? No. That would shed an unfavorable light on the Bush administration. Does the ‘liberal media’ report on why tower 7 at the world trade center had to be “brought down”,and how they could set that up in 4 hours, when it takes weeks to set up to intentually bring down a building of that size? No. Because that would really rock the boat.The media,from CBS all the way through Rush Limbough,especially Gush Limpballs, is bought and paid for by the ‘powers that be’, and as such, can’t be trusted for any real information that would serve to keep us informed as to whats really happening around us and to us. So whats the answer? I’m not sure, but a good start would be to get past the’haha we won’,and the ‘shit,we lost’ mentality, there is a lot going on that is not apparent on the surface, and just about everything I’ve read here is surface froth,and really not of much account.Dig a little deeper, and maybe your opinions will change,that is, if there is any courage among you.
astounded, the Blue states pay the bulk of the taxes in the US, so without the Blue states, the Red states together would be lucky to be a marginal G8 nation, though I doubt even that.
To whoever said it, by the way, the 35% of those who supported civil unions were those who supported civil unions but not gay marriage. “35% support civil unions” is a form of shorthand. Only 37%, if my memory serves me, rejected any legal recognition of homosexual unions, period.
What socialist values would it be that the Democratic party supports at the expense of America? Would it be the 67% who believe that American health care needs “fundamental reform”? (The highest in any industrialized nation, Limbaugh’s quoting of single payer horror stories from Canadian crank groups like the Fraser Institute notwithstanding.) Would be it be the push to raise the minimum wage, which passed in overwhelming numbers in red states such as Nevada? (While we’re on the subject, it’s worth noting that neither the latest minimum wage raise to 5.15 during the Clinton years nor the states and cities that have independently legislated higher minimum wages have actually experienced any rise of unemployment. Yet another gut to the crank groups like the CATO Institute.) How’s this for an idea? Take any single “socialist” economic issue (opposition to privatization of Social Security, increased federal assistance to college students with their tuition fees, national day care program, etc.) and run a nationwide referendum on it which would override any decision in Congress, any White House veto. Don’t want to risk it? If you’re only going to end up crying “constitutionalism”, don’t make the claim that Democratic “socialist” policies are out of touch with your country.
First I would like to identify myself as a Christian - a Lutheran. But I am also a Democrat. There are two issues I would like to ask the above Republicans regarding moral values.
1.Who among you is going to take over the expense of medical care for my adult daughter, who could easily have been a victim of abortion, because she is severely disabled due to well water that was full of farm chemicals when she was in the womb? It was a miracle that she lived at birth and now another miracle of medical science has allowed her to live 15 years longer than her life expectancy (30 years). She is expected to live a normal life span now. When GWB cuts the medical programs to give all of you your tax cuts she will die. So I need you to volunteer to take over when the programs are either repealed or without funds.
2.In the late 70s the Lutheran Witness, the official newsletter from the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, published an article regarding the definition of a just war. It was well thought out and Biblically documented. Unfortunately, the Iraq war does not fit this definition. What should I tell my five draft age grandchildren, 3 boys and 2 girls who are mothers of little babies, when they are asked to take part in an unjust war? I do not want them to die in or take part in something our faith has said is wrong.
Judy, get your head out of your ass. “When GWB cuts the medical programs to give all of you your tax cuts she will die”—where did you come up with this? Why don’t you try backing up this claim with some evidence? As for who will take care of your daughter, why don’t you sue the people responsible for her condition? If it’s their fault then they should have to compensate. As for the draft, THERE’S NOT ONE! Nor has there been any talk of one other than from a few Democrats. Besides, females aren’t subject to the draft so tell your grandchildren to relax. There’s your answer.
Randolph, it is your prez that is talking about faith-based care programs. My daughter’s care would break my local church in less than a year. That includes our savings for a building fund. As to taking the ones responsible to court: there were no protections on the law books against chemical polution when she was born (1958) and it is also impossible to prove which chemical in the soup in the well water caused the defects. Anyhow isn’t your prez saying we should not be suing for every little thing?
As to a draft I do hope you are right. I will keep praying that we do not have to revisit that situation again.
Read the draft legislation - HR 163. It does include women.
Wow Randolph,
that sure was a mean-spirited response. Do you talk to your grandmother that way? sheesh.
Only when my grandmother gets hysterical like Judy.
I think that anybody that voted for Bush should get it tattooed (or microchipped) on their arms so that after the fraud has been proven you will know who the rats were ,because when that ship starts sinking theres going to be a lot of rats deserting .........ask GWB for tips on deserting ........that National Guard service…........
to all you reds out there,
Some conservative utterings…spotted in this blog…
“W.‘s private moments,times with wounded soldiers…”-Dubya hasn’t attended a single funeral of any of the American soldiers killed in Iraq so far-
“decisiveness when criticized…”-or did you mean conciseness…only fools never change their mind-
“No President is perfect, mistakes have and will be made…”- your current’president’is really taking this definition to as yet unexplored regions
“...looking at organized terror as a thing of the past…”- organized terror has never had such fertile lands to thrive on as today- the number of desperado suicide bombers willing to take out innocent lives has never been higher-
“So some foreigners may hate us-I don’t give a damn.”-But you did when those planes hit the towers,didn’t you?
“Christian concepts underlie much of our law”-What’s so Christian about letting close to 50 million of your countrymen go without health insurance and sink into abject poverty?
“We collectively agree that the wrongful taking of innocent life is morally wrong and uncivilized”-sounds awfully similar to tens of thousands of innocent civilians being mowed down in Iraq-
“Kerry lost because he’s an elitist snob.”-and Bush isn’t? Look at his family’s fortune!Just because he can put on his cowboy act doesn’t mean he’s not a daddy’s boy who went through all the rites at Yale (despite his obvious intellectual shortcomings)
Just hoping America will snap out of it in 08 for our planet’s sake.
Concerned and Baffled European: I’m not impressed. So you can take a bunch of quotes (some not even complete sentenced) out any meaningful context and attach a little reply. I’ve noticed a lot of foreignors who like to bash the United States conveniently forget to identify their country. It’s easy to point fingers when you don’t subject your own country to any scrutiny. Why don’t you tell us what country you call home? More importantly, why don’t you mind your own business and let us run our own country? We know a lot more about it than you do.
Hey concerned…..So what you are saying is Longface, I mean Kerry is now dirt poor? He is I guess if you consider he uhm married his. Not once mind you but twice. The Bush money is earned look at the family business okay. At least the majority of their businesses are inside the UNITED STATES. Also, I think the President owns 1 count them 1 home. J kerry has 6 . Please do not insult people’s intelligence there okay. If the election were the other way around and Kerry had won, then people looking into voting problems would be sore losers. Oh and by the way do a google search and you will find out that Bush scored higher on his IQ test than Longface did. And yes Kerry is an elitist snob and his money, I mean current checkbook, oops I mean wife…...LOONY
To Concerned and Baffled European-from Concerned and Baffled American:Please follow Randolph’s directions:“More importantly, why don’t you mind your own business and let us ruin our own country”. You see what happened to the people of Iraq for minding their own business. If not for the U.S. Supreme Court, Al Gore would have been president. If not for 9/11, George W. Bush would have been a one-term president. Why don’t you understand that God acts in strange and mysterious ways? Please have a “___” day, and God Bless our President Bush. Also, tell us your country of origin so we can place you on our list of countries to bomb. We are busy now looking for bin Laden in all the “Blue States”. Will get to you soon…Your Uncle Sammy
“ruin” our own country? Hmmm… interesting typographical error…
Hey Randy,
Let us ‘run’our own country? You call letting a $250 billion surplus slide into a record $500 billion debt while spending tens of billions of dollars turning Iraq into a bloody quagmire (while that sort of money could have been spent on providing decent social aid to your fellow countrymen) a way of ‘running’ your country? As to the minding my own business-your country’s wheelings and dealings OUTSIDE your borders has had a significant impact across the world in case you have forgotten.Remember the 250 innocent commuters in Madrid whose lives ended because their prime minister got conned into being a part of the ‘willing’? Your President’s choices DO have an impact on the daily lives of people outside your country.I wouldn’t give a shit about your country if it were some insignificant Fascist regime tucked away somehere in the arse end of the world- but it’s not.The decisions your President make in the so-called interests of the American people will impact our planet which is becoming smaller, more fragile, and more intertwined by the day.You can’t keep on putting your head in the sand for ever. Snap out of it.
Hey Randolph,
I don’t mind people disagreeing with me at all. Especially if what they are saying makes sense or is demonstratably or obviously true. I sometimes learn from people who disagree with me, but only ever when what they say makes sense to me.
I don’t like hardline conservatives, just as I don’t like Nazi’s, terrorists or any one else who commits or supports the premeditated killing of other human beings.
It’s real simple Randolph, but obviously still just a little bit beyond your intellectual grasp.
Oh, and by the way I didn’t take a beating, and neither for that matter did the democratic party. Bush had the smallest margin of victory by a sitting president since Woodrow Wilson in 1916. Together with literally hundreds of different reports of vote rigging, or attempts at vote rigging. I would hardly call it a ringing endorsment. Not to mention the fact the Republican party has had the mainstream media completely in it’s pocket for the last twenty years.
Oh, and another thing. Democrats do not need the vote of hardline conservatives in order to win the next election. As things get worse a lot of people who voted for Bush but are not really true believers will gradually wake up and smell the bullshit. It will happen. There is a limit to how much death, destruction and finacial chaos Fox news can spin. People will eventually get it. My only real worry is election fraud, but the hardline conservatives can go to hell.
Also, Robin.
Why in your eyes does denoucing Bush mean supporting Saddam? There are dictators all over the world, I am against them all, but I also do not think we should invade any of them unless they show aggrestion to other countries or attempt to commit genuine acts of genocide. Its not up to the USA to be the world’s self appointed police force in any case. Two wrongs do not make a right, and besides, following your logic why didn’t America unilaterally intervene in the slaguhter in Rwanda?
I’ll tell you why, because there was no money to be made.
I can be against both Bush and Saddam at the same time, being against one does not mean supporting the other. Is this how they taught you to think in shcool, or have you just been watching too much Fox news?
True, Saddam invaded two different countries, but so too did George W. Bush. Osama Bin Laden was responsible for killing three thousand innocent civilians. George W. Bush has killed seveteen thousand. Read my lips. I AM AGAINST THE PREMEDITATED KILLING OF HUMAN BEINGS BY ANY ONE FOR ANY REASON. The only time I think killing of any sort is forgivable is as an act of direct self defence.
So, to use your logic, to disagree with me, is to agree with people who commite murder.
By the way, I think the ‘Coffin companies’ are doing very well for themselves in Iraq at the moment, regardless.
To Dan,
nobody is a Hitler fan, that is a distgusting idea. I compare Bush to Hitler, I even make jokes about it, because the similarities on certain levels are striking. Yes, the situation is different in terms of the specifics, but broadly speaking it’s still good old fashioned world domination, for nothing more than ego and loot. George W. Bush is nowhere near as bad as Hitler, and we genuinely have God to thank for that. But he is showing Hitler-like tendencies, and he’s in control of the most powerful military in human history.
So, for all you imbeliciles/conservatives. I am against George W. Bush, Tony Blair, Saddam Hussain, Adolf Hitler, preemption, deception and murder.
I am for freedom, truth, cooperation, win/win situations, human life, democracy, empathy and understanding. I believe that everyone is equal under the rule of the law, and that you must do what ever you can to prevent crime. I also believe criminals should not be let get away.
I support balenced bugets and reasonable taxation. I beleive in helping my fellow human beings, and in fiscal responsibility. I believe in goodness and am dedicated to facing reality, even when that reality repulses me.
Hey Mark James (two gospels—is that your real name?), if you are a solid Bush supporter you are indeed stupid by definition.
I don’t have the U.S of Canada/Jesusland map on my refrigerator, I have the map from the URL below. It’s the most accurate U.S. election map I’ve seen.
[URL=http://www.projectsomewhere.com/gal-4595,10623,5506.html]2004 U.S. election map[/URL]
Randolph, I’m curious… what’s your position on Tort Reform, and other similar legislation, which would diminish corporate and HMO accountability in the courts? As long as Republicans are standing up for the average, Southern Christian, why not rescue them from having to undertake a contracted, 30-year legal battle costing tens of thousands of dollars for justice?
To those whoever it was who inquired, no liberal have found definitive evidence of voter fraud, which means that by all measures, officially or otherwise, Republicans won the election. However, there have been voting irregularities, and where they exist they all seem to favour Republicans. In Broward county, for example, machines started counting backwards after tabulating 350 votes. (This problem was corrected afterwards, but it’s worth noting no machines in northern Florida required such corrections.) In Franklin county, not enough machines were ordered for pro-Kerry districts (1 machine per 250 voters in Bush precincts, 1 machine per 350 voters in Kerry precincts). Not voter fraud, of course, but it displays questionable ethics of Republican state officials in Ohio. And of course, there are those highly publicized counties that tabulated more pro-Bush votes than there were registered voters. So far, all these mistakes were rectified, and Bush still is left with a solid lead in both Ohio and Florida, but it’s still worthy of investigation that all irregularities seem to favour Republicans. The GAO is undertaking such an investigation as we speak, and if it and a handful of other independent, nonpartisan investigators come up inconclusive, then yes, I’ll drop my complaints about the 2004 election.
It’s amazing the extent to which some Republicans can shield themselves from reality. According to exit polls, some three-quarters of Republican voters believed that WMD’s have been found in Iraq and that there was a link between Saddam and al-Qaeda, despite both claims having been officially disavowed by the White House (and the Pentagon several months before). Many Republicans seem to believe that Bush inherited a recession, which isn’t true. The economy peaked in March 2001, two months after Bush took office. That can hardly be said to have been Bush’s fault, but the bald-faced manner in which right-wing pundits have simply claimed that the recession began under Clinton (and the manner in which people accepted it) has been harrowing, to say the least.
“And yes Kerry is an elitist snob”
Though it is not evident in this statement by itself, I may as well point out that the Right has done a good job completely redefining some words over the past few decades. Of course, everyone knows how the very word “liberal” has been vilified, but another example would be a word used here: “elitist”. The way it is used today seems to impy that an elitist is someone who believes their kind of people is better or higher up than another kind of people; i.e., urban intellectual elites on the coasts thinking that they’re better than the people of the heartland (which we probably do, all things considered. It’s something we’ll have to work on). However, a more correct definition of elitist would be someone who believes that it would best for everyone if a certain distinguished group or class of people should govern society. The Right has tried to shift the meaning away from this as this puts the libertarian-Right holy grail of constitutionalism sqaure in the crosshairs.
I guess I should have been more clear when I stated Kerry was an elitist snob. He came off as a person who felt he had to talk “down” to the voter. He came off as though I am infrior in my intelligence, and therefore, he was not talking to me, but at me. I have an education, thank you. He needed to tell me what he was about. Not this ” I have a plan”. Well and good, tell me what it is okay. His campaign talk as a moderate did not match with his liberal points or votes. I researched everything I could get on Mr. Kerry. I still am. I view all information, not just certain sources. I want ALL facts before I make a decision. I vote for the person, not the party. I have never or will I ever vote a straight ticket. It makes no sense to believe that is what a good republican or democrat would do. The party of the dem’s for the most part is out of touch with the values that I adhere to. They are in league with organized labor, the NAACP, the ACLU, Jessie Jackson and the ever wonerful Al Sharpton. Give me some credit. I make up my own mind and I always will. And no I don"t watch Fox, as someone said I did. I do not watch tv. period. I read, I find my information in both conservative and progressive mag’s. I listen and I educate myself where the candidates stand. Then and only then will I make my decision.
Susan,
Your mean-spirited attitude is exactly why your party lost. That and the Dems miscalculation about the average American’s opinion of Hollywood. It seems that if someone has an opinion different then yours, then they are an idiot? Gee, that will win the centrist vote, won’t it?
By the way, I have never met a single person who thinks that US forces have found WMD’s so I really doubt this alleged pole you claim to have read is valid. Perhaps they asked skewed and loaded questions like the types that were asked at, geee….........let me think…....EXIT POLES?
The day you and many other Democrats realize that opinions that differ from yours can and should be tolerated without ridicule (kind of like what you dems accuse us of doing with homosexuals) is the day you may have a chance at reviving your party.
The bottom line is, whether you agree with them or not, Christians have a huge voting base and disrespecting them lost the dems the election and if your attitude is refelctive of your party’s attitude four years from now then you can expect more of the same.
Respect people’s differences!
There have been references in these discussions to Bush being a “war criminal” for taking over another country, and some have even gone so far as to accuse him of being analogous to Hitler. Few believe this - a reference was even sited regarding the horrific nature of Hitler’s atrocities: shooting innocent civilians in the streets and killing people in hospital beds. Everyone across the planet now agrees that this type of thing is and always was a crime against civilization.
According to an IPS report http://ipsnews.net/new_nota.asp?idnews=26440, this is what happened in Fallujah: people deliberately killed in hospitals, civilians shot in the street, the use of napalm, even poison gas. Admittedly, the Inter Press Service has viewpoints and sources you would never hear on Fox, or even CNN or PBS. But most American reporters report that the US is now so hated by everyone in Iraq that they never go outside a few square mile “green zone” unless accompanied by a US armada, and they readily admit they don’t know anything about what is going on other than what the military tells them.
If only 10% of the eye witnesses in one out of ten of the multitude of articles like this are true, then is it any wonder that the incidents of terrorism are increasing so dramatically throughout the world? Does anyone think that the human desperation caused by these atrocities will do anything but increase terrorism further? Is your child safer now than they were 4 years ago?
This IPS article is the type of report that europe, asia, and the rest of the world get everyday. Their news isn’t polluted or distorted by the influence of the Australian multibillionaire who owns Fox, or cronies who are afraid to raise the eire of the military-industry-media conglomerate which Murdock is part of.
In prewar Germany, the Germans were so badly duped by a zealot into supporting what the world now views as atrocities because they had no access to information to the contrary. In the USA in 2004, the information is out there, but many (it would appear, the slight majority) refuse to believe it, or even acknowledge the existence of facts contrary to their views.
No, it wasn’t exit polls. Numerous post-election polls arrived at that conclusion, including this one:
http://pipa.org/OnlineReports/Pres_Election_04/Press10_21_04.pdf
(I forget the original poll where I first heard it, but this one will do.)
By the way, even if it was, what’s wrong with exit polls? They’re usually so reliable and accurate that many third world countries successfully use them to detect voting fraud. What happened with early exit polling this year is a mystery, but what shouldn’t be considered a mystery is what to make of people too stupid to know what they mean what they’re talking about “moral values”.
Thank you, Robin, for clearing that up. My only gripe with that complaint (given Kerry’s uncharismatic and patrician demeanor, it’s probably true) is that so many righties bring up double standards when it comes to these sort of things. Kerry appears arrogant (when making a speech)? He’s an elitist snob. Bush appears arrogant, say, when talking about the war? He’s being an effective commander-in-chief. You get that all over. People want to boycott Sinclair? Censorship. The Religious Right want to boycott certain programs (CBS’ “The Reagans” come to mind)? They’re standing up for what they believe in. If and when the media sympathizes with the Left (say, whistle-blowing a corporate scandal)? Bias. If and when the media sympathizes with the Right (all of FOX’s content, pretty much)? The free market at work. See what I mean?
(On that last point, if the Right continues to insist that today’s timid and complacent media is in some way liberally biased, let’s not try and prove why this isn’t so with links and examples and all that. They’re not worth the trouble; just say that it is the free market at work.)
We just need to divide the country into two. The intelligent, progressive liberals and the ignorant, hillbilly conservatives. It won’t be long until the conservative half of the country blows themselves up in the name of Jesus Christ. They are too ignorant to know any better.
Ted, I’m all for tort reform, even though I’m a lawyer and it definitely won’t be good for business. I don’t understand your question. What is this thirty-year legal battle you’re talking about?
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