Stages of Grief

What a bunch of garbage!  As a solid Bush supporter, I find it reprehensible to be calle an idiot or a dunce.  I happen to be a college graduate and business professional.  I believe that this kind of thinking is why the Democratic party is in a shambles.  According to you, no one is entitled to have a position if it doesn’t agree with yours.  I am thankful to Fox News to provide fair and balanced news.  As a Bible thumping neaderthal, I am proud of my country and of my President.  I believe the mandate is based on 3.5 million votes and not 160,000 votes from Ohio.  Whether it was 3.5 million or 1 vote, the people chose their leader and I thank God it was George Bush.

Glad to see that the Democrats learned tolerance from this election. 

To defeat an enemy you must first understand him.  Since Ms. Douglas understands that all Bush voters are neanderthals, it is clear that she has done all the analysis necessary.

With open-minded and non-judgemental thinking like this, I am certain that democrats will continue to lose elections for many years to come.

(Hint: that was sarcasm)

Susan,

Great job, keep your party on track here with this and you will lose the next election. 
Yes yes.. your country stuff I love it.
Keep it up and lose some more! 
Make it easy for us idiots out here to win.

Pure genius!!  Damn I can’t believe you lost.
Was it the Right that got into a scandal over facts? 
Oh no it was the left.... but keep believing it and someday…. you will lose again!!
Problem is, you can’t separate facts from feelings.  Nuance, perception, feelings…
I blame the soft sciences for this weak minded thinking. 
I pity your ineptness

it is sad, so very sad. The Left just tells the country what a bunch of idiots they are, they had a permanent Hate Bush campaign for the past 4 years, they wonder how anyone, anyone can support Bush.  The left sucks.  You are whining losers.  You know nothing about America.  You hate America. You wonder why you lost?  Because you are filthy amoral scum.  Go to canada, get out now, we don’t need you.

What if’s concerning Ohio are ridiculous. The vote is what it is. But if you want to move 135K votes out of Bush’s Ohio vote, what about other changes?
Kerry won PA and 21 electoral votes by LESS than Bush won Ohio’s 20 votes. Turn around less than 120K votes in NH, WI, and MN and Bush picks up another 24 electoral votes. Only 67K votes in OR gives Bush another 7. Out of nearly 120 million votes, less than 300K selectively moved over to Bush would give him another 62 electoral votes, or almost 350!

BBBBBBWWWWWWWAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!

Get real dude! 130,000 margin of victory?

NAW it was more like 3,000,000 margin of loss.

It would have been sooooooo easy to pick W off, but the we picked a MAJOR loser, stiff, aristocratic, haughty, with a bs war record and ashamed of his record in the Senate, and his speaking voice? he sounded like a cartoon senator, what was with that? Kerry did not stand a chance. (He would have stood a chance, no he would have wiped the floor with W if he had used the tone of voice in his campaign speeches that he used in his concession speech, same as Gore, his best speech of the campaign was his concession speech, strange that, I don’t understand it.)

Now if the we had nominated Senator Nelson of Florida, it would have been an entirely different story, a true hero, an astronaut, no dubious ‘Nam albatross around his neck, extremely popular in Florida, he would have won a lot of the red states that Kerry lost, he would have won Florida and Ohio, those states love astronauts and W would be a laaaaame duck that we would have to suffer only a month or so more of.

The most important thing to remember these days is that people vote for the person NOT the party, Kerry was very aloof and it killed him. Got to get a more populist candidate next time for us to even have a chance.

It is such courageous assessments that give me hope for the future of the Progressive movement in this country.

“The Democrats and progressives need to...” keep listening to the advice of writers like this!

At the end of the day Susan can you tell us what the Progressive cause has come to? All of the articles in this mag for the past 3 years have been extolling the gains the “movement” has been making. But now you have lost all 3 branches of the federal gov and the majority of the statehood branches as well.

So do ya think the old lefties, who just got their butts kicked with their socialist babbling ideas, should take a seat and let some new articulate blood come in?

What have you done for the Progressives lately Susan? Just point out a concrete gain or two.

Hey Susan, we all know that having writers with three names like Mark Crispin Miller on our side guarantees a loss!

Sheeesh, I quit. I’m going over to the other side. They don’t have any three-named writers, much less a bunch of one--named dweeks like Bono, Cher, Barbra...etc...etc...ad nauseum…

Very poorly argued. How about citing one of your
“many documented sources” referenced in “Stage 1.”

What proof can you offer that Fox News viewers are more ignorant of current affairs than viewers of other news sources?

In “Stage 4” you claimed that “a whopping 60 percent supported either gay marriage (25 percent) or civil unions (another 35 percent).”
Said differently - a whopping 75 percent DO NOT support gay marriage. Or how about this - only 25 percent support gay marriage.

Sorry Sue, but this article would probably get a failing grade in any college English course.

Hey, you are exactly right.  Keep doing what you are doing.  Your article summarizes the best strategy for Democrats.  Insult the electorate, call the majority of voters stupid, insult the huge number of women who are pro-life, belittle religious faith… Good stuf!  Yeah, you guys are going to win the government back in no time.  Keep up the good work.

Wow!  Such incisive analysis...there truly is no better source for meaningful and pithy political thought than the Shirelles…
http://www.theshirelles.com/history.html

How can conservatives possibly compete with a “movement” that has both the Shirelles and Barbra on their side?

Stage 7:  Lose again, by an even larger margin
Stage 8:  Become more shrill
Stage 9:  See stage 7
Stage 10:  See stage 8
and so on…

Susan, you need to stop studying that red state/blue state map. It’s giving you a false picture.

Go study the county-by-county red/blue map, which is much more revealing. On this map you see that Kerry didn’t win Pennsylvania, but only Philadelphia. He didn’t win Michigan, but only Detroit. Etc.

In fact, the Democrat Party is no longer a national party at all. The only place anybody buys your nonsense anymore is in a handful of urban centers.

Most of the nation heard your message loud and clear, and voted accordingly. You have been weighed, you have been measured, and you have been found wanting.

Your piece is amusing and representative of some of the unbelievable fantasy tales many Democratic-leaning media have spun since the election.  There simply aren’t enough Jerry Falwell types, “Bible banging Neanderthals” (one fact I have never understood is that Democrats champion tolerance and respect of virtually every religion OTHER than Christian evangelicalism) or single issue gay marriage and pro-life social voters in America to elect a president.  The Bush victory, solid by any measure, was attributable to a host of factors, none of which is mentioned in your article: (i) personal character and leadership characteristics, (ii) a recovering economy, (iii) a low-tax, strong national defense and anti-terrorism message, (iv) education policy, (v) John Kerry’s waffles on Iraq (after a year and many millions of dollars I am still not sure what his “plan” is or was), and (vi) failure of the Democratic establishment to nominate a more moderate candidate instead of a tired and dovish liberal.  It wasn’t a case of believing the Swift Boat Vets over Michael Moore; the American people judged two men and political philosophies and voted accordingly.

What part of the 9/11 hearings, the bestseller list for the last six months and extensive news coverage did these people miss?

This was not a legal case tried in the 6th Circuit.  Did you not read the Dolfur Report?  Have you never bought a used car?  The correct repsonse, “Thank God Bush acted when he did.  We caught that SOB without a stockpile of WMD.”

“I know not what to think of a republic of 30 million athiests.” John Adams on France.  Does that make John Adams a “Neandrthal Bible thumper”?  If it does, then count me in.

If you are attempting to parallel Elisabeth Kubler Ross’ work on death and dying and the 5 stages of grief, you have a way to go.  The stages are as follows:  denial, anger, bargaining, depression, and acceptance.  You seem to have experienced 4 of them.  Try acceptance.  Acceptance that you may be wrong.  Acceptance that there may be other valid points of view.  Acceptance that your way may not be the only way to acheive a common goal. It might open your eyes to a whole new world.

Depite the arrogance & obtuseness of your piece, the conclusion is the most revealing & damning part:  free speech lost you the election (by the abolition of government-mandated content under the guise of the misnamed “Fairness” Doctrine) given that the voters are too stupid to understand that the Left will deliver them from the pits of ignorance in which they wallow, so if we can get rid of that silly “free speech” stuff, you can once again enlighten the simple folk of this country, just like in the good ol’ days of Walter Cronkite & Eric Sevareid & Huntley & Brinkley.  Hey—if you can pull that off, maybe we can even become Belgiumesque so your courts can abolish your opposition when it gets too popular!!  Might as well, since we Great Unwashed Proletariat need to be shown the way until we can discover it for ourselves (q.v. that Lenin dude).

Wow, after reading the responses to this article I am further convinced of the moral depravity of the right.  I’ve never seen such a collection of sore winners in my life! You won folks! Go do your gloating amongst yourselves...it’s only polite.

Oh and “S”, maybe somebody should let you know that your guy doesn’t measure up on all those factors you quoted.

“personal character and leadership qualities?” In Bush? that’s amusing...let’s see him blink confusedly ONE more time…

Hatred, resentment, arrogance, contempt for and derision of Christianity--"Bible bangers are not the new majority"--lack of vision, calling those who supported Mr. Bush ignorant, etc.: You and everyone else who calls himself or herself a Democrat and/or liberal and/or leftist and/or progessive can say and write these and more until the proverbial cows come home.

In fact, I genuinely encourage you do exactly that.

The effect of such behavior will be to ensure the backseat in American politics for a long time for Democrats and liberals.

So, thanks. And, please, please, please, keep up the good work.

It should help ensure a conservative-and-Republican majority in the Congress, White House and most state governments for at least a generation.

You tried to steal every vote you could. You had 90% of major media on your side-working for you, in the case of CBS. You had millions of dollars for TV, with practically no restraint on what you said. Youbetrayed blacks and gays with attacks on Mary Cheney, Rice, Powell, etc.
And you lost.
You aren’t smart. You’re problem is you can’t think. Success in your world consists of rote memorization of rigid dogma.
You are unable to change.
Soon you will be gone.

“Stage 1: Shock Many of us were barely functional on Wednesday, wondering how could it be that a guy so obviously and patently incompetent and deceptive, as documented by so many sources—and a faith-based zealot to boot—got reelected?”

Funny, many of us were shocked that a guy so obviously and patently incompetent and deceptive, as documented by so many sources-and with an ambulance chaser for a VP candidate could get so many votes

Why don’t you liberals come up with a winning stategy instead of banging on your high chairs and screaming “no fair!” evey time you get your asses whipped at the polls. What a bunch of pussies!

The Left was soundly rejected on November 2nd. Stop crying- the grownups are trying to run a country here.

Stupid hippie.  Always gotta be somebody else’s fault when things don’t go your way, huh? Can’t you just accept the fact that you lost because you, your candidate and your party are all LOSERS! 

Yes, YOU lost.  Face it.  You didn’t try hard enough to win, and you should have because Bush was very beatable this time around.  You had a great chance and blew it.  But that’s what LOSERS do.  Winners win and losers lose and you lost.  Do the math.

But nooooo...gotta bitch and whine and complain and play the victim.  Well shut the fuck up and tell it to somebody who cares.  Tired of hearing you dirtbags yap.  Get over it.

Democracy is surely a fragile creature. The South lost the right to own fellow humans in the first Civil War. We are now engaged in another civil war, testing whether a nation of underinformed and misinformed citizens can indure. Our Constitution, with its Bill of Rights, is slowly dissolving before our eyes. Fifty-more months of this fake, “compassionate Christian” president, surrounded completely by “YES people” may be more than this democracy can endure. For those on the Right who invite progressives to Canada, this is advice more and more Americans are listening to. The South is unwilling to vote for a Democrat from the North anymore. Yes, the last one was assassinated in Texas 41-years ago on this very day of Nov. 22. If you are young, want access to health care, a reliable pension system, a safer environment and protection for your civil rights, Canadian citizenship may be your best “lifeboat”. Our ship of state has struck two-massive icebergs(Vietnam & Iraq)and has an incompetent captain at the helm. This “Ship of Fools” is sinking. Will there be a lifeboat left for you? Go North young man/woman!

YOu’re kidding, right?  A clear majority in the popular vote serves you when it is convinent, e.g. 2000 when Gore won the popular vote, but lost to Bush in the electoral vote, whereas in 2004, Bush clearly won both, yet you refuse to see the 3.5 million vote gap in the two canadates?  As a Bible thumping neandrathal, and an ignorant Dunce, at least I’m able to come up with real arguements as to why George Bush won.  Could it be a return to basic moral values the country was founded on?

When the democratic party sees how the United States votes, maybe they’ll start winning.  It wouldn’t help to have a good canadate run either.

awwwwww, diddums gettums widdle wiberal feewings hurrrrt???

Mark:

Hmm. I have access to health care (there’s a hospital down the street--I think you mean health insurance). I have a reliable pension system, a clean environment (incredibly cleaner than any third world country), and my civil rights have never been violated. And, yes, I live in America. Couple of other things:

1) I’m sure it’s a typo, but I find it ironic you misspell “endure” in the same sentence you call me and my co-voters misinformed or underinformed.

2) Could you please, just please, give one example of the Bill of Rights “disolving.” That’s right--a fact to support your assertion.

3) JF Kennedy was a taxcutting cold warrior. He’d probably be a Republican or mod Democrat today.

4) Oh, you forgot one thing: if you want to be taxed at twice the rate you are in the U.S., Canada may be the place for you.

Susan, among your many incorrect statements was this, “previous four years and this election emphasize how important media reform is, particularly the reinstatement of the Fairness Doctrine, which the Reagan Administration abolished in 1987.”

As you should remember - if you would bother to take off your intellectual and political blinders is that the proximate cause of the dissoultion of the “Fairness Doctrine” was the decision in Meredith Corp. v. FCC that the doctrine was not mandated by Congress and that the FCC did not need to continue to enforce it.  The decision to dissolve the doctrine was made by the FCC, an independent commission, not the Reagan administration.

I wish liberals were less talk and more action. Always jabbering about moving to Canada, Ireland or France. Get off your ass and go!

1. You can pay brutal taxes in Canada (and face crime rates twice the US).

2. If you like sitting on your ass complaining all day then France is your best bet. Mandatory limits on work hours mean more butt time to gripe.

3. Ireland is being taken over by crabby liberal hags. Soon that lovely isle will be as much fun as Belgium or Finland.

4. So go.

Most of you are stating that the article is not good in the way that it attacks the raw “intelligence” of the right in the US.  Most if not all of the comments use the same tactics the author of this article just did: personal attacks on who the ones that don’t have the same opinion as you are.

2 examples:

“Stupid hippie.”
“Stop crying- the grownups are trying to run a country here.”

Now if these attitudes are more “grownup” and “intelligent” than the one of the author… I need to go back to school or something like that.

To state my personal opinion on the republican party:

I believe it transforms the USA into a purely theocratical state.  I firmly believe that religion and state affairs should not be mixed.  Most people I have talked to would vote for Bush because he is a very religious man or because he is against abortion and gay marriages, all of which are religious arguments in a political matter. Why are we so bent on mixing religion and politics when we are also promoting freedom all over the world?  One aspect of freedom is freedom of religion.  Gay rights and marriages is a strictly religious thing.  Allowing gay marriages doesn’t mean the religious institution has to marry people, but those that want to can and also have state-based marriages to allow them civil rights.

Again, in the best “free” country on earth, why wouldn’t people have a right to choose their religious beliefs without penalizing their civil rights?

Scott, where do you get that crime rates are twice that of the US?  I was convinced it was the opposite.

Looks to me like you were just handed your butt.  I enjoyed the response to your whining by real, and yes, educated people.  I proudly live in a red state you know the state that elected W.  Go Ohio you make me proud.  Here are my stages of non grief, 1) thank heaven that we will not have to look at Longface and his wacked out crazy wife. 2) Gloat, yea I said gloat,3) repeat step 2 over and over and over and over......This coming from a red-stater with a college degree and my own business.  Thanks for trying, and failing to call me stupid.

Paul O’Brien asks............
“What proof can you offer that Fox News viewers are more ignorant of current affairs than viewers of other news sources?”
What better proof could there be than the level of ignorance displayed in the majority of responses to this piece?
“He that doth not know those things which are of use for him to know, is but an ignorant man, whatever he may know besides.” --Tillotson.

Tuck you! (as they say in Fexas).

This essay seems like a blueprint for preaching to the choir.  Come on progressives, challenge yourselves!  Drop that smug attitude; become “intellectually curious” about the Red counties, and figure out what we have to offer them. 

I don’t feel sorry for you for the punishment your writing is taking in the comments section. You certainly had it coming by deciding to name-call the side that happened to win this election by a clear margin.

I voted for Kerry, but understand those who voted for Bush did so for what they believe are the best motives.  They believe the war in Iraq is a humanitarian act consistent with recognizable moral values.  They believe that the media is aggressively trying to change the culture in America faster than they feel comfortable with.  They believe Bush embodies the kind of mindset needed to protect the country from the Islamic jihad that has been declared against all of us, not just “Jesusland.”

The way for Democrats and progressives to regain credibility and trust sufficient to win important elections again is, first, to stop demonizing or mocking those who hold those views.  They are not dupes, nor intoxicated by “The Passion,” nor corporate tools. They aren’t nearly as different from you and me as you might think.  Many of these people voted for Bill Clinton in the past, and voted for Democrats down the ticket this time (see the splits in Nevada, for example). 

They don’t want to see the Democrats be obstructionist; they want alternative ideas.  I am convinced that what beat Kerry this time was the fact that few people could parse from all his rhetoric an alternative vision of protecting America, or improving its economy.  Why would you expect people on the fence to vote for a candidate who won’t clearly articulate his positions?  It doesn’t make a voter a dupe or a neanderthal if they ask that their candidates define where they stand, and what they would do differently, in plain English. Had Kerry done so, I think he could’ve won.  Let’s face it, he was a poor candidate, who admittedly got better as the year progressed, but still went into election day having made only a weak case for himself.

So if you want to fight back, sure, you can organize all you want, but first make sure you know what you’re organizing ABOUT, and make sure it’s an agenda that doesn’t insult the intelligence of the voters you need to win over.

I have serious misgivings about the conservative social agenda, but that wasn’t my priority in this election. The terrorists brought the fight to us in spectacular fashion, and I feel strongly that the right thing to do is fight back with all of our power. The President has done this in the kind of bold fashion that few other leaders would have undertaken. We’re now changing the world for the better, and it’s a risky, costly enterprise. It requires a level of fortitude that the other nations of the world--and a large minority of our own citizens and leaders--simply can’t muster. Thank goodness the majority sees and supports the necessity, and realizes that the social issues can be sorted out after the priorities are dealt with.

Clearly, almost all the negative comments to this artcile were written by the same vitriolic dude using different monikers.

Never drink and post, my man.

It seems to me that people are rehashing what they’ve been posting for the past year.  The Election is over, and it’s been proven that there is a huge population in the states that prefers willed ignorance to facts.  That’s a fact of life now. My suggestion? let all your derision out at these backwards boobs that really are a-scared of them homeysexuals marryin’ and them that think them terrarists is lookin to attack Alabama next you know.

They can win all the elections they want, it doesn’t matter anymore, let them fck the country up so badly that in 20 years time nobody will be able to recognise it.  After all the EU is rapidly overtaking the States as the pre-eminent economic superpower...let these idiots reign supreme.  They’re just signing their own death warrant.

We still have the culture folks, literature and art and music, the things that make America truly great still belong to the progressives…

Mike, it’s Mark:

Hmmm. We are both fortunately in the “better of the two-Americas” espoused by Senator Edwards. The health care, reliable pension system, ect. are great for both of us. My civil rights have never been violated either. Enjoy your non-third world clean environment. The Kyoto Treaty must be really dumb or the U.S.A. would have signed it.

1) How can someone who watched a documentary named “The Endurance” make a hypo? My right index typing finger has been submerged in ice water for 15-min. as appropriate punishment :)>

2) The Bill of Rights has always been under assault. The Patriot Act is a crown jewel. On July 4, 2004 President Bush gave a speech on the capitol steps at Charleston, West Virginia. A young married couple from Texas was arrested and removed from the public audience. Do you know why? Reference to Amendment I for “right of the people peaceably to assemble”.

3) I totally agree about Kennedy-Nixon.

4) Some say taxes. Some say Texas. Some say potatoes. Some say potahtoes. We’ll work the whole thing out...or some of us will say, “God bless the Queen”, while holding a maple leaf.

Dear Dan you should consider reading what the framers actually meant when they were talking of freedom of religion. Freedom of religion is not the same as freedom from religion. No serious scholar would deny our founders were profoundly religious men for the most part, especially by todays standards. In fact many of them argued that without religion the Republic would not last. You should look into it. Facinating stuff. You think you lost the election because more than half the electorate is ignorant uninformed bigoted bible thumping morons, mmmmmm seems to me this outlook says a great more about you than it does us.

Dan, Canada does have a higher crime rate than the US (or so I’ve read on a conservative blog; looked sincere enough, I’ll believe it), but the US has a higher murder, rape, and armed robbery rate. Furthermore, the states within the US that have the most crime and violence are the “get tough, inject’em good” Red states.

Republicans who want to believe that Democrats waged a perfect campaign this year and still lost have been become too drunk with euphoria to think straight. First of all, the Dems had an uncharismatic Massachusetts senator who waged a dismal campaign right up until the final month, when the finally spoke out against Iraq and got a boost from the polls. However, exit polls showed that most voters made up their minds long before the final month, when Kerry was off windsurfing while letting his overemphasized Vietnam credentials be slandered. Second, the 527 effort was big but disorganized. Various special interest groups could identify voters with a specific issue but could not connect the dots from local issues to Kerry (under the tax code, 527’s are unaffiliated which means they can’t campaign for Kerry, not technically. The GOP machine was far more streamlined.) ACORN, for example, had a huge hand in the Florida minimum wage ballot initiative; but that’s it. They campaigned for minimum wage, they got minimum wage. Clearly, overreliance on 527’s was not a good idea.

Step 4 of your article, Ms. Douglas, carries the wrong connotation. Republicans are “questioning” the moral mandate argument because they want their entire agenda to be awarded a mandate, not just gay marriage. Charles Krauthammer already tried his hand in “debunking” this by pulling an Ohio number straight out of his disingenuous ass. He claimed that Bush’s vote totals grew the least in the 11 states with the gay marriage initiative and thus the moral mandate was false, but he completely made up a number saying Bush expanded his Ohio turnout by 1 percent, when it was really 19 percent. Furthermore, exit polls clearly state that the voters whose primar y concern was the economy, Iraq, education, or healthcare, favoured Kerry by huge numbers; the very same areas where Republicans are now trying to say Bush’s policies have been awarded a mandate. Terrorism, character, and gay marriage won the Republicans the election.

Democrats made significant gains at the state level, especially in the West. These and the campaigns of certain Dem senators should be where the DNC and the DLC should be looking to. The Salazar brothers between them took two seats away from Congressional Republicans “despite” being unabashedly pro-gay marriage, pro-choice, and environmentalist, by evoking strong economic populism. Russ Feingold won in a landslide in Wisconsin, a swing state that Kerry just barely managed to carry, “despite” being one of the most strongly liberal senators that voted both against the war and against the PATRIOT act. Kerry’s flip-flopper image clearly cost him much-needed political points.

Also, Democrats who blame the youth for not showing up must realize they can’t just flick them on and off every 2 or 4 or 6 years, whenever they need them at their beck and call. The liberal movement must be like the conservative movement; on, every day of every week of every year. Kerry did nothing whatsoever to court the youth vote, apart from vaguely speculating about the prospect of a draft. Key constituents, especially young, unmarried women, were similarly neglected.

And on a final note… “crabby liberal hags”? What part of the fact that the only age group to go with Kerry was the young vote (18-29) do you not understand? Perhaps you’re living in your Weekly Standard, Free Republic world where you believe all the hype about conservative insurgency in college campuses. (And hopefully not some astounding, roundly rejected pseudo-intellectual garbage along the lines of Howe and Strauss.) First, conservative student leaders and newspapers have been receiving financial aid from foundation donors like the Carnegie Foundation for decades; prior to Howard Dean, the only such national program for liberals was Progressive Majority, I believe. Second, the litmus test to which campus liberalism is being measured against, the heady days of the late 60’s, is a thoroughly stupid one. Bring back the draft, and get about 40,000 more young men killed. Then we’ll see how this generation measures up to those oh-so-radical Boomers. The youth, who have nowhere near the same hangups about gays and abortion that the older generation does, trend Democratic, not Republican.

So, when does the anti-religious backlash really begin? I’ve only been mildly insulted so far for my faith. Come right out and show your disdain.

hmm… somewhere in the midst of my barely organized rant, I forgot to comment on the article. On that, I have to say we’re not going to go anywhere by calling anyone dunces or Neanderthals. The Democrats’ biggest problem is one of image; cosmopolitan elitists and egghead academics sitting on their self-appointed thrones, telling average, hard-working people what to do. Insulting 51% of your country’s population will only reinforce that.

The only part of the article I can say is of value is the emphasis on small, local elections. This is where the “bicoastal elitist” image fails, where elections are mostly about policy. To some extent, you guys’ve done a decent job in that regard. Even Salt Lake City has a Democratic mayor, so clearly the Southwest looks promising. Life could be made very difficult for the Republicans if the fastest growing part of the country switches from deep red to swing. (Don’t let Kerry’s loss of New Mexico fool you; Kerry did better than Gore in 8 of 9 states in that region.)

But anyways, I digress. I can’t blame the Righties for reacting the way they did to an essay that could essentially be boiled down to “you guys are dunces”, but yeah, thinking small, grassroots, is imporant.

Hey Mark James,

don’t make me laugh.  Look, people are a bit like computers, you can have a good processor, but pretty bad software.  You might as well be a neanderthal, and not just because we disagree with you, but because what you believe in is absurdly moronic.  You, and many others like you, are living proof that brain washing actually exists. 

By the way your president is a mass murderer. 

To all you other conservative freaks.  Two wrongs never make a right.  Greed is NOT good.  Fox news is about as fair and balenced as Joseph Goebbels, and goodness and truth will win in the end, despite people like you, and whether you like it or not.

Real democracy is about freedom and truth, and about protecting people from those who would use their positions of privilage to hurt others.  Bush is such a total failure, on every level, except perhaps the propoganda war, the war on truth.  Conservatives are a bunch of losers.  It’s the losers who have to rig the game.  And if you think there has been no criminal misbehaviour in this election then you truly do have your eyes welded shut. 

You can fool some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time.  But you can’t fool all of the people all of the time. 

What they never told us was that all you ever have to do is fool some of the people all of the time.

You, the loyal followers of George W. Bush are the people who are fooled all of the time.  Once people are out of the womb, especially if they are born somewhere other than America, then anything goes with you people.  To me the word ‘conservative’ is now completely interchangeable with the word ‘criminal’.  It’s criminals who kill people.  It’s criminals who lie. 

I love freedom, and democracy, and fairness and truth.  Which is why I hate conservatives.

Here’s some homework for you (I wouldn’t expect you to take my word for anything).  Look up what happened at Nuremburg in Germany at the end of the second world war.  Specifically, look up what certain Germans had done to merit being hanged.

It really blows my mind that so many rabid conservatives are reading “In These Times.” What’s up with that?  Don’t you have a million religious radio stations and magazines and stuff to pay attention to?  Don’t you have some gay bashing to get back to? Please, please, I’d like to hear the reasonable voice of a non-freakishly vicious republican post to this site.  If you wanna talk moral values, let’s talk about the moral values of compassion, caring for the poor & the elderly, sharing of wealth.  Wanna talk being “conservative” let’s talk “conserving” our environment, our money, instead of raping our forests & giving our money away to corporations.  I know the voice of reason is out there somewhere!!!

Remember, republicans won’t win forever.  They never have.  Someday all of you people who are posting insane sounding, puffed-up, vicious, prideful things to In These Times now will be the losers.  Let’s accept that we have to all live together—there WAS NO MANDATE!  This country is split in half --people who hate gay marriage and believe that there were WMD in Iraq and people who dont’ care what gay people do and know that the WMD line was a farce.  And that is the way it is.

Oh, I love it when liberals refuse to understand the reason their candidates aren’t getting elected! Just keep thinking/talking/acting like this, honey. Your party is intentionally relegating itself to a position of such fringe irrelevance that it may never recover. Secede, by all means. Move to Canada/France/Germany. Ah, sometimes the schadenfreude is soooo delicious I feel guilty...NAAHH!

This from a rag that employs Salim Muwakkil. And they call the right stupid!

I agree; we get nowhere by hiding our progressive agenda. May I suggest:
1. Ads showing our progressive control of what “makes America great” (as noted by neil in the posting above, e.g., the arts: More photos of Piss Christ ought to demonstrate to the uncultured what the progressive arts vision looks like. Jane Smiley’s explanation of the “unteachable ignorance” of the Red States should be posted in all airports in all Red States, to help those idiots come to grips with their stupidity. Eminem could be named Progressive Artist of the Year; his lyrics could be sent in book form to all elementary schools in Red States, so that young children could sing his songs to their parents when they get home.
2. The moronic idea that women in other places would prefer freedom to female castration can be refuted by showing pictures of a 10 year-old having her labia cut off; then you can show pictures of her smiling after the wounds have (physically) healed. See, no big deal!
3. The threat of the Bush theocracy can be illustrated by juxtaposing pictures of the little female castration victim with those of the Bush twins in their inaugural gowns. Obviously, there’s no difference in the female subjects of Islamist vs. Christian religion.
4. It’s silly to think that abortion is a big deal. A series of informational videos showing an actual partial-birth abortion should be sent to every P.E. class in every high school in the country. (It would be expensive, but George Soros probably has enough money left to supply the funding.)I suggest making it personal by having a family member of a staff writer at In These Times undergo the actual procedure, not just some nameless woman. Afterwards, there could be an Abortion Celebration in the ITT office. This way, young girls could see that abortion is a rite of passage, not a problem.
5. In a similar vein, Susan Douglas and the male sperm-donor of her choice could make an embryo, then donate it for “research” purposes. This would graphically illustrate that embryonic stem cell research is nothing important. Recently Brad Pitt was on TV explaining that this kind of research was essential; perhaps he and his wife Jennifer Anniston would donate their first embryo for research? Now there’s something to be proud of!
Just a few ideas to help the “progressive” cause…
Very very sincerely,
Julie

In the wake of this election I’ve been hearing a lot of talk of “both coasts,” “either coast,” and so on, suggesting that there are only two coasts in America.  Have these people ever seen a map?  This geographic ignorance is a prime example of how out of touch with “Middle America” the media are.

Ha Ha, listen to that loser Max Godwin.  Keep up the good work, Max.  Insulting everyone who disagrees with you is a great way to advance your platform.  Do you have any idea how funny it is to us winners to listen to pathetic whiners like you bitch and cry about how you hate conservatives and how you’re convinced we cheated?  The time-worn Hitler analogies would be good for a laugh if they weren’t so unoriginal.  We know what the Nuremburg Trials were, and your analogy falls flat.  Are you suggesting that us evil conservatives will be punished the same way for supporting Bush?  You liberals a real tolerant crowd.  And let’s see some evidence of “criminal misbehaviour” in the election.  Goddammit you are one sad case.

You people can have your laugh at the expensive of the democratics now. And you can make all the self righteous statements regarding kerry;s flip-flopping, waffling, etc. but the other half of this country will get the last laugh.  WAIT AND SEE! No need to explain anything to you, you won’t agreed, anyway. But, remember the word CULT!!!! Remember Hitler!!!! Remember Stalin!!!! Remember your vote in this election when your pocketbook stop running over!

Neil, “personal character and leadership characteristics” are a matter of opinion.  The past of both men, including the DUI of W, the Vietnam atrocity charges of Kerry and a host of private moments, were the stuff of bloggers and emails circulated throughout the nation and scrutinized in a year long campaign.  What many saw and remembered in W was not his admittedly poor performances in the made for television debates or sometimes substandard grammar, but the private moments, times with wounded soldiers, decisiveness when criticized and even ridiculed for his positions, and an unquestioned desire to put America first instead of trying to win a global popularity contest.  No President is perfect, mistakes have and will be made, but in the end a majority of Americans made a good choice and saw W as a good man and leader for our nation.  I believe that someday, when Bush is remembered by thoughtful historians freed from the hysteria of the Michael Moore types and looking at organized terror as a thing of the past, he will be thought of as one of the upper tier of Presidents, and maybe even a great one.

Julie, you are a perfect moron. Ever heard of people like Thoreau? Kerouac? Hemingway? Raymond Carver? how about Jasper Johns? Jackson Pollock? Edward Hopper? Grant Wood? Ever heard of Jazz? how about Folk? a little thing called rock and roll? What made america great was the arts, not it’s politics (which has a checkered history to put it mildly)

see I didn’t realize that by giving a country over to a religious majority (like Iraq) will curtail religious extremism...I guess when freedom is on the march religion hides in fear?

oh, and I forgot that all leftists think having an abortion is a fun way to spend a saturday afternoon.

and I’m not sure if you realize this Julie, but us leftists really want to have factories of permanently pregnant women so we can keep harvesting stem cells for our nefarious plot to rid the world of Alzheimer’s
(maybe you’ve never had somebody taken from you by Alzheimer’s, but I have, and it fcking sucks.) Do you think maybe using a tool that was going to be THROWN IN THE FCKING GARBAGE OTHERWISE might be a good idea?

you’re a perfect twit, an idiot. You’re a waste of human potential.

S, are you really telling me that the american people voted for one guy cause he was better at photo-ops than the other guy?  If so, may god help us all…

listen, a super-intendent can stand in front of his burning building and tell his tenants it’s not on fire all he wants, it doesn’t change the fact that it IS on fire.  Bush can keep saying the war on terror is going great all he wants, the fact is it isn’t.  Iraq is a quagmire, no WMDs, over 100,000 dead Iraqis and over 1200 dead americans. the other two parts of the axis are a much greater threat (hell North Korea ACTUALLY has nukes, and Iran is closer than Iraq was) but the name of the game there is diplomacy? Why was diplomacy not an option in Iraq? Why did we have to go in alone, and forget the rest of the world, hell even George Sr. at least understood the need for a real coaltion.  In history?  Bush will go down as one of the biggest bumbling presidents, his claim to fame will be presiding over the “Oil Wars” and being the president that saw the economic power slip from the states to the EU.  Great president...I think not.

Neil, well written, albeit misguided!  Let’s let history judge.  I am always amused to read some of these things, and wonder if similar perspectives had prevailed would we have seen these headlines:  “FDR’s Lapses Lead to Pearl Harbor Tragedy”, “Chamberlain’s International Appeasement Summit Applauded by World Leaders”, “Reagan’s Call to Tear Down Berlin Wall Offends Russians”, “Normandy Invasion Disaster-Tanks Founder, France Remains in Axis Hands”, “Lincoln’s Arrogant and Self-Righteous Moralism on Slavery Offends Slaveholders.” You get the drift.

I do hope Ms. Douglas considers taking a class on statistics.  Her assertion that 60% of voters approved either civil unions (35%) or gay marriage (25%)is boneheaded.  If 65% of the respondents said no to civil unions, then 38% of that 65% would have had to say yes to gay marriage in order to reach the 60% approval rating Douglas touts.  I realize there are probably a few folks out there who would be pro- gay marriage while anti-civil union for nuanced legal reasons; but the vast majority who say no to civil unions are not conversely cheering on gay marriage. 

As for her assertion that 55% of people support keeping abortion legal, the internals of that fact reveal that the majority also support significant parameters for legal abortions, a concept that is anathema to the liberal establishment.

I find it interesting that even as Ms. Douglas excoriates the majority for retaining President Bush, she touts majority thinking to support her positions on gay unions/marriage and abortion.  Now, Susan, you can’t have it both ways:  either the majority of voters are all a bunch of boobs or we are all enlightened neolibs!

okay, then just prove to me how killing over 100,000 iraqis is going to make them like America more and not create more terrorists?That’s just flawed logic.
And the fact remains, there was no justifiable reason to go to war in Iraq, there just wasn’t.  You can say now that regime change was the reason, but Rumsfeld himself said early on in the debate that it wasn’t about regime change. 

(p.s. that one about Pearl Harbour probably should’ve been a real headline :)

Just so y’all know where I stand: I’m an Independent who probably leans Libertarian and Green Party in equal amounts, I voted for Kerry because I think that Bush’s foreign, domestic, and environmental policies are causing much more harm than good - in both America and in the world of which we are a part, and I’m a medical student in naturopathic medical school because I want to spend my life doing things that can really improve life for all of us. I’m not sure why so many of my fellow Americans spend so much time arguing about whether Democrats or Republicans are right when there are so many real problems to solve in the world that need focus and dedicated attention. (What about a constitutional amendment making it illegal for children to starve to death in the same city where we are paying our elected public servants outrageous retirement benefits?) Why don’t both parties stop trying to figure out “what it takes to win” and just start working towards “what it takes to make a better world”? It seems to me that if that is what our political leaders are really doing, then we will all be winners all of the time, regardless of who is in office. And, for a change, we might have some really appealing candidates running for public office.

I know I might as well be saying this to a brick wall but we didn’t go over there and kill 100,000 innocent Iraqis.  Even your candidate agreed there was intelligence supporting the decision, and although I know I will be labeled an idiot, I still believe we may never know the whole truth regarding Saddam’s arsenal and intentions.  We do know that he was one of the few, if not the only leaders to have actually used WMD’s, on his own people, and that he defied numerous UN resolutions.  Do you trust him?  War results in innocent casualties, and if your test is that there can’t be any, you are naive.  I don’t claim that all Iraqis love us or that the war has gone exactly as planned, although certainly there is much more “good news” than is reported.  But when Iraq utimately emerges as a more moderate and democratic state after a period of normal instability after change of a 30 year regime, and North Korea and Iran think twice, I think history will not dismiss it as an “oil war.”

Posted by dzzrt Ratt on November 22, 2004 at 7:14 PM
___________

Nice post.

S,

There have been countless bloody dictators in the world that America has turned a blind eye to. In fact the current situation in Darfur and Bush’s inaction further erodes his credibility as an leader that seeks to better the world.  This is an oil war and everybody knows it, any other justification is just that, a justification. The truly disheartening part is that he is couching his actions under benevolent auspices of ridding the world of evil (evil, funny idea that, a large part of the world would call America evil..that’s the problem with moral absolutism, it leads people to think they are right and everybody else is wrong).  To simply say “aren’t you glad Saddam is not in power anymore” is not enough.

“ After all the EU is rapidly overtaking the States as the pre-eminent economic superpower...” Posted by neil on November 22, 2004 at 10:02 PM

I guess neil missed the EU report last week stating the the EU’s long-term economic prospect for growth is less than 1%.
------
threads like this always degrade into Iraq and abortion.

I have several relatives and personal friends in Iraq right now. Marines, airmen and soldiers. My nephew is an electricians wiring houses for the first time. He works with a Corps of Engineers team that’s installing plumbing. For the first time.

A friend in Fallujah tells me how Iraqis left thank you notes for the liberation of their city from the Sharia terrorists.

Applications for marriage are up dramatically in Iraq.

These reports go on and on—stories of thankfulness, hope. If all you watch are TV news, you are not getting the full story. But at least it feeds your anger and hatred. Gets you worked up into a foaming lather. Ready to scream.

The funny thing about liberals who constantly screech about Bush being Hitler is that they appear just like the creming crowds in Triumph of the Will.

Hey Vernon,

this is where I got the idea that the EU is on the rise

http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2004/11/15/europe/index.html

btw - Sharia terrorists?  I hadn’t heard that term before, Islamic Holy Court Warriors?  Or was that a typo?

Hhmmm. Interesting how it only takes a “moron” to elicit a truly hysterical rant from a girlie-man. (Does “n.t.” stand for “no testosterone”?)
I don’t have time to respond to all of your ...ummm...issues as I just got back from a cruise and I need to unpack. However, let me say that that it is the people of this country (not the “arts") that make it great.  It’s the firefighters, the mothers, the meter readers, the cowboys, the carpenters, the ministers, the soldiers, the singers, the clerks at Walmart, the kids at McDonald’s, the executives, the entrepreneurs, etc.  To particularize: As long as you progressive elitists think that Jack Kerouac is “greater” than Pat Tillman, you will keep losing elections.
Finally, I may be a twit but I’m a twit with a Ph.D. and I, unlike you, am soooo happy!
Even more sincerely than before,
Julie

Julie,

so smug aren’t you?  One little problem with your argument though:

It’s the firefighters, the mothers, the meter readers, the cowboys, the carpenters, the ministers, the soldiers, the singers, the clerks at Walmart, the kids at McDonald’s, the executives, the entrepreneurs, etc.

ummm...if what makes your country truly special is that it is populated by people, then you’re in for some rough times.

What is with all the ignorant Republicans leaving comments? Isn’t this a liberal news media? I have a feeling that Billy Graham told them all to log on to In These Times website and leave their conservative mark on the comments section, for the sake of Jesus Christ. It’s funny how they accuse democrats of putting beliefs ahead of facts in the election, when all of their votes were cast based on who “believed” in the same God as them.

Amen Brother Edgar!  I guess we could do the same on Conservative websites, but I hear reading those pages is injurious to your mental well-being :)

Randolph,

I’m not insulting everyone who disagrees with me, just conservatives.  The second you say something interesting or truthful, we can have a conversation. 

Look, if you support George W. Bush then you’ve already taken yourself out of the realm of informed debate. 

My rant was about more than the presidential election.  It was about the take over of this country by the extreme right wing. The comparisons to the Nazi’s do not have to be original to be true, and if the Nuremberg rules were applied to Bush he would be hanged, it’s as simple as that.

Yeah, write back and tell me what a loser I am, while you support a mass murderer. 

Seventeen thousand civillians are dead now because of Bush and his followers (and that’s just a count of those deaths reported in the media). That, for those of you who become number blind at times like these, is more than five world trade centers.

You may dispute my exact figures, but you know a lot of people have been killed in Iraq. On the other hand, if you believe this was a bloodless war then you probably also still believe in Santa Claus.

The point is, one Iraqi illigally killed is too much.  Iraq was not a direct, or even an indirect, threat to us.  There were no links with Al Queda, in fact Saddam and Bin Laden were sworn enemies.  This is a matter of public record. 

The reason we democrats keep repeating this stuff is in the hope that the not too badly indoctrinated conservatives around us will eventually wake up and smell the coffee.  The unprovoced invasion of another country is wrong, it always has been and always will be.  And for Bush to let the real bad guy, Bin Laden, get away was inexcusable.

I’m sorry, but in voting for George W. Bush you’ve labelled yourself an imbecile.  Either that or you simply support the murder of other people for no good reason.

Listen, in the long run nature will simply deselect you guys.  Civilisation has been progressing for the last four thousand years, and despite occasional set backs, things carry on getting better and more coherent.  People who in any way support this are called progressives.  People who in anyway resist this are called conservatives.  Nature will eventually deselect you, assumming you don’t get to blow up the whole planet first. 

So call me all the names you like, to be a conservative is to be an anti-human, because it is human to grow, and nurture, and co-operate with other human beings. It is human to show empathy and understanding.  It is human to take responsibility for your own well being and the well being of those around you.  There is no conflict there, except the one imagined by insecure conservatives. 

I call you guys morons, not because I want to insult you, but because I truly believe it to be the case.  Stupid is as stupid does.  I don’t care how many of you have been to college.  You can’t vote for a man like George W. Bush and lay any claim to being intelligent.  Either that or you are all sociopaths, who don’t even care about your own well being, not to mention that of others.  I don’t know, I really don’t.  Evil, or stupid, I must admit I cannot make any other sense of your positions.

Goodness will win in the end. And if that worries you then keep on voting for George.  When that man starts being able to string a sentance together, or stops invading other countries, then maybe I will become a little more moderate in my views.  Until then, conservatives everywhere who voted for Bush deserve contempt and distrust.

Stop invading other countries.  Start catching real terrorists.  Stop running up astounding deficits.  Stop planning to impose your values on the rest of us.  Then, and only then will you have the whole of this country behind you.

I wonder if any of these Republicans and Bush supporters have ever step foot out of this country and visited another country, and experienced another culture? The problem with most Americans, particularly the right-wing conservatives, is their belief that America is the greatest country in the world and Christianity is the greatest religion in the world and anybody who is not an American or a Christian is weak, or wrong, or evil, or whatever. Military and financial power aside, if we’re talking merely about “quality of living”, the United States is “okay”. it’s not the worst country. It’s not the best country. Same goes with Christianity. It is just one religion out of many, none being better or more correct than the others. People in other countries get along just fine, people with other religions get along just fine. And nobody outside of America would agree that the US is the best country in the world. In fact, if you take the population of Earth as a whole, there would be far more people in the world who DON’T think the USA is the best country than the number of people who do. Usually, if you’ve experienced another country or culture, you realize that this country is just a piece of a jigsaw puzzle known as Earth. No better or more important than any other piece. It’s when you start imposing your thoughts and beliefs and culture on other people that problems arise. It’s what is happening in Israel and Palestine. It’s what is happening in Sudan. It’s what we are doing in Iraq. And it’s what will eventually cause another civil war here in the USA. I’m sure any conservative who reads this will tell me to “go to Canada”.....which will prove that they just don’t get it.

Good call, Max

Edgar,

I totally agree with you. Funny thing about these last two elections, in areas where there are high concentrations of people (like cities, which also generally are more multicultural) the people voted everwhelmingly Democrat.  I think that says alot about the state of affairs.  Fortress America will be your downfall, the world isn’t “us vs them” or at least it shouldn’t be.

You’re keeping me in stitches, Max.  I think my favorite theory of yours is that Bush would be executed if he was tried at Nuremburg.  Explain, please.  Max, people like you are entirely incapable of learning because you refuse to acknowledge that people who disagree with you might have good reasons.  You’re close-minded and you’re ignorant if you think anyone who voted for George Bush is stupid.

As for Lefty Canuck, the following statement speaks volumes about your elitism:  “Funny thing about these last two elections, in areas where there are high concentrations of people (like cities, which also generally are more multicultural) the people voted everwhelmingly Democrat.  I think that says alot about the state of affairs.” Obviously you think people who don’t live in big cities are capable of casting an educated vote.  Instead, you seem to suggest, they only vote according their prejudices.

Edgar Frog: what is your point, other than to congratulate yourself for being so “enlightened?” Is there something wrong with never having left your country?  Not everybody can afford to.  Is there something wrong with thinking that your country is the best in the world?  I would argue that any country whose citizens don’t think is the greatest in probably in a lot worse shape than one with nationalistic citizens.  I’ve been to several other countries, every one of which I loved, but each confirmed my opinion that the United States is the greatest.  So some foreignors may hate us--I don’t give a damn.  I don’t know the statistics but I’m guessing that more people emigrate to the U.S. than any other country.

Here’s some advice all of you disgruntled lefties: accept the fact that you lost.  Consider that there may be a good reason most of the people in this country disagree with you.  Also, keep in mind that the same polls that said most Bush-supporters voted on “morals” are the same polls that showed Kerry winning in a landslide.

Randolph,

what I was suggesting is that when people live in close proximity you see alot less of the NIMBY mentality, which alas is the same mentality that thinks all arabs are the same. Osama, Saddam, whatever...you know, conservative thinking…

Randolph, most of the people in this country DON’T disagree with us. Only three million more people voted for Bush than Kerry, give or take. That’s not a huge majority. That’s not “most” of the country. Keep in mind, there was a time and place when “most” of the country supported slavery and “most” of the country supported burning witches at the stake. The intelligent always defeat the ignorant in the long run. History, incidentally, always remembers the ones who fought back, the ones who stood up for what was right, when “most” of the country was wrong, like abolitionists, for instance. Whether or not Bush has the support of “most” of the country is not what matters. What matters is that this country has a long history of the few defeating the many, and a long history of “most” of the country being wrong in their beliefs. Not to mention that if the founders of this country hadn’t questioned authority and government, we’d all be under British rule. Funny how questioning the government is considered un-American, when America was founded by people who questioned government.

Edgar:

First off, more than half is most of the country.  How do you define “most?” Secondly, I didn’t say being in the majority is always being in the right, nor did I say there was anything wrong with questioning the government.  What I’m saying is that people like you, Godwin, the author of this article, and the Lefty Canuck should at least entertain that there are valid reasons for voting for Bush instead of writing off people who voted differently from you as stupid, inferior, evil, etc. 

Since you don’t seem to believe in democracy ("Whether or not Bush has the support of ‘most’ of the country is not what matters. What matters is that this country has...a long history of ‘most’ of the country being wrong in their beliefs."), I don’t know how we’re going to find any common ground.  That’s fine, all I’m asking is that you respect viewpoints that conflict with your own.

And vice versa.

No Randolph, we are laughing at you, make no mistake.

Q. What’s the difference between George W. Bush and Adolf Hitler?
A. Adolf Hitler didn’t try to dodge the draft.

Q. What’s the difference between George W. Bush and Adolf Hitler?
A. Adolf Hitler had his country behind him.

Q. What’s the difference between George W. Bush and Adolf Hitler?
A. Nothing.

As for the stupidity of conservatives, let me once again illustrate my point with a previously mentioned metaphor.  Human beings are a bit like computers, they can have good processors but bad software, or they can have average processors but excellent software.  In this comparison the ‘processor’ is your genetic intelligence, that which you are born with, and ‘software’ is how well you’ve been taught the think, how well you use your brain.

So, no matter how good your processors are, when it comes to social issues conservatives have bad software.

It is in this sense I call you stupid.

Neil, take a chill pill.  Bush isn’t just attacking dictators without rhyme or reason.  Remember it was your sacred UN that sanctioned Iraq and passed countless resolutions against Saddam.  Was John Kerry wrong when he said that the world is better off without Saddam in power?  And what exactly is an “oil war”?  Did I miss our nationalization or confiscation of Iraqi oil?  I am so tired of the Halliburton conspiracy theories and “big companies are so bad........wahhhh” whines.  And finally, and this is what truly confuses me.....is that libs often say that there are no moral absolutes.......as, of course, a moral absolute.

Max, the persistent attacks by some on evangelical Christians and other conservatives as ignorant and irrational are disappointing.  Whether you like it or not, Christianity and Judeo-Christian concepts underlie much of our law and Christian adherents founded many of our nation’s leading institutions and have served with distinction.  The notion that private morality cannot influence law and public policy is absurd.  Why do we have murder or securities laws?  Because we collectively agree that the wrongful taking of innocent life is morally wrong and uncivilized, and to cheat others is also wrong.  Reasonable, and intellgent, minds can differ on other issues, such as abortion rights, euthanasia, gay rights, stem cell research and other “social issues.” I believe most Americans, even the highly religious, are centrists and find shades of gray on many of them.  When the left realizes and accepts that and nominates candidates who share that view, instead of calling people who disagree with them names, maybe there will be a few more blue states.

Susan,

Take a chill pill!  I am pro-choice, do not attend church, have never thumped a bible, and voted against the marriage amendment.  I am also Republican and voted for Bush.  You can’t honestly think that anyone who voted for Bush is just a clone of any other Bush voter.  We are certainly smart enough to know when we read something from a mean spirited, condescending sore loser. Your arrogance is tiresome and self defeating. 

On another note, the article is poorly written.  Name calling and whining does not equate with facts and figures.  Take a journalism course and learn how to keep to the point without all the embellishments.  Insulting the very people that need to be won over to your point of view is childish and ineffective. 

Bush won because he was the better candidate.

Better at what? Alienating us from the rest of the world, commiting war crimes that oppose the Geneva Conventions, mispronouncing “nuclear”, drooling during debates, occupying other countries to avenge his daddy, helping the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, sending thousands of American soldiers to die so that he and his buddies can secure all the oil fortune in the world, or all of the above? If so, then yeah, I guess he was the better candidate.

I guess you have already decided to lose the next election.

As a Christian who voted for Kerry, and a Democrat, I am highly offended by your anti-Christian tone and I am sure that if you keep it up you will lose the next election too.

I am one of those who warned the Left, over and over again, over the past two decades, to cut out the anti-Christian rhetoric. Nobody listened, it seems.

The phrase “Bible-thumping” is just one you should delete from your vocabulary for good. It offends me because I love the Bible. If those who pretend to believe in it would actually read it they would come to vote with the Left on many issues (not abortion).

As for “Jesusland” it is an insult to those of us who love Jesus and vote Democratic. I guess now you have decided to alienate us also and have left, on the left, just a few diehard atheist-agnostic-humanists. I am sorry you have made that choice. It is a good way to lose every election down the line.

As an atheist, I find it hard to accept anybody as “intelligent” who believes in an adult version of Santa Claus and makes political decisions based on those beliefs.

But I would use the word “ignorant” when describing somebody who believes that. Not necessarily “stupid”. There’s a difference. Ignorant is believeing in God in general. Stupid is making political decisions based on that belief instead of based on what’s best for the whole of humanity.

Evangelicals fell for the single issue bait and the manufactured image of someone who may actually be sincere in his faith, but horribly misguided in his theology. A living Christian faith demands rigorous examination of daily ethical issues in the context of Christ’s clear and straightforward teaching. Church, faith, morality, truth, values and other such deep words have been co-opted and corrupted by highly motivated, amoral, ruthless people, devoted to exactly the things Christ preached against.

“The Jesus Factor”, as PBS called it, suggested that America ached for certainty. Any certainty. Fundamentalist evangelicalism supplied it. God help America…

Susan:

I understand your grief. However, putting others down and being incredibly condescending is NOT the way to go.
This country is incredibly polarized and needs calm reasoned discussions of our differences and we all need to treat others with respect. I work with a very intelligent lady who cannot comprehend how I could have been a Kerry voter - just as I could not understand how she could be for Bush. We have different world views, but still respect and like each other..

I simply cannot leave this discussion without enlightening the so called intelligent republicans who claim Canada has “outrageous” taxes and a crime rate twice that of the U.S. 

For the U.S. .............................
Property crimes - 16,300 per 100,000 population
Violent crimes(which for some reason does not including murder) - 2,260 per 100,000 population

personal federal income tax rates..lowest - 25%, highest - 39%

For Canada...................................
Property crimes - 4,121 per 100,000 population
Violent crimes(including murder) - 963 per 100,000 population(yes, that’s NINE HUNDRED sixty three)

Personal federal income tax rates..lowest - 17%, highest - 31%

From where I’m sitting it looks like the U.S. is witout a doubt the more outrageous of the two.

Edgar, for you to accuse anyone else of ignorance is laughable.  Take a look at what you’ve posted.  The only thing more hypocritical would be for you to accuse people of being intolerant.

I consider “intolerant” to be bending laws to suit your religious beliefs, and making what you don’t believe in illegal, ie. what the right-wingers are doing with gays and abortion. Don’t use the word intolerant against me when you support the most intolerant leader that the most intolerant country whose majority of citizens believe in the most intolerant religion has ever had. If a Democrat was president, we would not make going to church illegal or praying illegal. It’s intolerance that liberals are trying to fight.

Edgar, your intolerant.  Prime example: “I find it hard to accept anybody as ‘intelligent’ who believes in an adult version of Santa Claus.” Bush is the most intolerant president we’ve ever had?  How do you know how personally tolerant he or any other president is/was?  Most intolerant country?  Try Cuba, the Sudan, Libya, and Iran for starters.  Most intolerant religion?  I would have to cast one vote for radical Islam.  As far as I know there’s no Christian counterpart to Al Quaeda, Hamas, and Hezbollah going around the world killing “infidels.” I’ve never heard of any Christian extremist group hijacking airplanes and flying them into buildings for the sole purpose of killing civilians.  If you reply that the American military is simply a Christian version of these terrorist organizations then you’re out of your mind.

We will see how everyone feels when a 57 Trillion dollar accumulated debt comes home to roost.

The ONLY reason why GW Bush is still President is because Osama Bin Laden staged a successful attack on America under his watch, and Bush has a lot of highly paid people who successfully turned him into Gary Cooper in the aftermath of this disaster.

And remember, everything Bush does is somehow tied into commercial petroleum interests

Also, we didn’t start the fire. Rush Limbaugh gets that honor. “It’s Clintons Fault” should be etched onto his tomb.

To clarify, I don’t agree with the agressive comments on intelligence that the author portrayed in her article… I simply wanted to say that alot of “right” people are saying the same about “left” people in their comments.  Not to say oh since the right does it, its ok for the left to do it.

I do believe that when we talk about “jesusland” we do talk about religious fundamentalists.  Now we could enter a debate on the definition of fundamentalism… but I won’t.

The difference between christian extremists (which is different from fundamentalist) and islamic extremism (which includes a rather small proportion of islamic believers as with christian extremists) is that the christians actually are in positions of power in our global economy, if not to say that they rule the world economy, not directly trough religion but close.  Christians have to maintain an image.  Islmamic people do not.  Their followers, their endoctrined people for the most part do not have a TV, and it easy to create hate from economic and social situations happening all over the world.  Christian extremists have killed.  Assassinations have been perpetrated trough the ages or dicatures or genocides under the rules of chritian extremists.  Example: Guatemala. They do a good job at maintaining their image…

On another note, why are we spending ALL our time debating about abortion and gay marriages (or shall we say rights?) when more than 2 billion people in the world live in extreme poverty (note: in 1999, Earth reached a population of 6 billion).  And in case most of you don’t know what extreme poverty means: not having enough to eat and drink everyday to develop properly as a human in the US or Canada or western Europe could. Thats rougly 1/3 of the population on this planet.  Alot of people in the US suffer from this also… This should be given center stage instead of being relinquished to the background of the “I don’t want to hear about that again!” news column.

I have a few things to say.

First, I am not a Bush supporter but please stop comparisons between Bush and Hitler for the sake of decency.

Second, these comments need to change.  Try to recognize that there are many intelligent in every quadrant of the political spectrum.  I am a liberal and one of my friends is a conservative and we respect and understand each others’ views even though we disagree with them. 

To have a truly intellectual debate, everyone here needs to respect everyone else as a human being and attempt to understand their views, even if you disagree.

“The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in mind at the same time and still retain the ability to function.” - F. Scott Fitzgerald

Hugh,

A brief meditation on the phrase ‘Bible-Thumper’.  I think it’s a useful phrase because it describes people who try to push thier private beliefs down the throat of the public.  It does not refer to real Christians.  A ‘Bible-Thumper’ is usually holier-than-thou, arrogant and dogmatic.  Again, as far as I know none of these are real Christian traits.  The Christian ethic is a wonderful one, and in my humble opinion the religious right are not really Christians.  They give it a lot of lip service, but then support war and destruction.

So, we need the phrase ‘Bible-Thumper’ so we can distinguish between real Christians, who keep it to themselves and just try to live a good life, and right-wing extremists who want their beliefs to dominate everyone elses.

Can this thread be maintained until Nov. 2, 2008? This is a very good discussion. I’ve learned from it. When we just listen to those who say what we want to hear, there isn’t much to learn. While this is a progressive site, the input from conservatives and middle-of-the-roaders adds an opportunity for all of us to understand(not always agree)each other. I’m a progressive liberal and thank God everyday I have this belief as an option. Surely, conservatives feel likewise. I fear that our nation is moving away from our Bill of Rights and is dangerously flirting with a type of mutated theocracy. For the conservatives who tell us to hit the road to Canada or wherever, consider that none of the posters on this site are dumb. We would not be posting if we didn’t care. For some educated, caring Americans to begin losing faith in their own country is profound. Think about what it means to each of you. “Don’t let the door hit you on the way out” may sound real macho, but is the country better off for it? Imagine a country left with only people who agree with you about everything…

Tim

the comparison between Hitler and Bush is an accurate one, and not just a metaphor.  In terms of strict international law what George W. Bush did to Iraq was no different to what Saddam did to Kuwait, or what Hitler did to Poland. 

So do not talk to me about decency.

I also agree strongly with your F. Scott Fitzgerald quote.  But I would add that there is no point in holding opposing views in your head unless at some point or other you are able to come to a conclusion.  The greatest destroyer of intelligence is polarized thinking.  But to never come to conclusions, to never put your feet on solid ground is itself an extreme position.  Some shades of grey are very nearly black, and some are very nearly white.  Never mistake passion for dogma.

To the person who said “Bible-thumper” is a legitimate, unbiased phrase:  You are only proving that you still don’t get it.

I do not know who the current Feminist icon is, maybe there isn’t one, but I remember the day when it was Betty Friedan (probably nobody under the age of 60 has even heard of her). Suppose I called all feminists “Friedan-thumpers.” Would that make them feel good?

Suppose I called all Muslims “Koran-thumpers.” Would that make them feel good about me or my message?

Suppose I called all Jews “Moses-thumpers”?  I suppose they would respect me for that.

I am really surprised that you still don’t get it. And if you don’t, I am not going to waste my breath.  Just keep losing elections. Maybe even I will vote Republican for the first time in my life.

Hugh

If you are thinking of voting Republican then it is you who has lost it. 

I specifically defined the phrase ‘Bible-Thumper’.  Did you even read what I wrote?  I personally do not think that people are referring to anything other than religeous extremists when they use this phrase.  You must know the sort of thing I mean, people who would merrily preach all day about how much of a sinner you are.

I think there is space in the English language for at least one derogatory term that describes these fundamentalists.  I do not think it refers to Christians in general, and is a pretty harmless use of words in any case.

By saying that you are thinking of voting Republican because of this you are basically saying that you find this phrase more offensive than the ongoing slaughter of Iraqi civilians.

What sort of Christian are you?

One more thing, to Mark Cartwright.

Having

“a country left with only people who agree with you about everything”

is unfortunately most right-wing extremist’s wet dream.

A lot of people who say they are conservatives are not really and would actually help you out if you were in trouble