Did the Bush-Cheney campaign engage in electronic vote fraud to ensure that George W. Bush would be president for another four years? That is a question every small-d democrat should be asking. Much has been written on the Internet alleging that the election was stolen. Some writers are members of the tin-foil hat brigade, but others provide sober analysis of the… return to article
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Reader Comments (86)Page 1 of 1 pagesIt may be too late, but a reasonable sample of the Ohio Diebold machines must be impounded and the demand be made under Freedom of Information that computer experts be allowed to examine the program code in those machines. The same should be done with the PCs that processed the optically scanned ballots in Florida.
Posted by Edwin D. Reilly on Dec 10, 2004 at 2:46 PM You have some misinformation in your 12/10 column, “Was the 2004 Election Stolen.” In the column, you stated that “In Ohio, more than 35 counties used Diebold machines…” in the 11/2 election. For your information, Ohio decided earlier in the year that there was not adequate time to implement new voting systems prior to the election on November 2. If you read our announcement in which I believe you’re referring (which is nearly a year old) closely , it clearly states that “Half of the 71 Ohio counties eligible to select an electronic voting system provider have preliminarily chosen Diebold Election Systems.” To date, these systems have not been installed. In the interest of accuracy in reporting, we would appreciate a clarification in your publication.
Also, Diebold had systems in only 2 counties in Ohio on election day—Lucas (which went to Sen. Kerry by a wide margin) and Hardin (a very small jurisdiction in NW Ohio). Both used paper-based optical scan systems. Elsewhere in the country, our touchscreen systems were used predominantly, and with very positive feedback, in Georgia, Maryland, California (Alameda County), Texas and Kansas. None of which were swing states in the presidential election.
Also, as of June 2, 2004, Diebold’s Board of Directors authorized a change to the company’s corporate ethics policy to address the importance of the issue of political bias. In recognition of the necessity for strict neutrality concerning political candidates and issues, the chief executive officer, president, and chief financial officer of Diebold, Incorporated and those Diebold, Incorporated executives identified by the Company as responsible for the oversight of its election systems companies, as well as all employees of those companies, may not make contributions to, directly or indirectly, any political candidate, party, election issue or cause, or participate in any political activities, except for voting.
To view the Diebold, Incorporated business ethics policy, visit:
http://nocache.corporate-ir.net/ireye/ir_site.zhtml?ticker=DBD&script=2250#t topAlso, FYI, there has been another statistical study that refutes the findings of the earlier Cal-Berkeley study, re: electronic voting in Florida. You can read about this at http://www.wired.com/news/evote/0,2645,65896,00.html. You may need to clarify this as well.
Mike Jacobsen
Director, Global Communications
Diebold, Incorporated
Posted by Michael Jacobsen on Dec 10, 2004 at 2:52 PM “Also, as of June 2, 2004, Diebold’s Board of Directors authorized a change to the company’s corporate ethics policy to address the importance of the issue of political bias. In recognition of the necessity for strict neutrality concerning political candidates and issues, the chief executive officer, president, and chief financial officer of Diebold, Incorporated and those Diebold, Incorporated executives identified by the Company as responsible for the oversight of its election systems companies, as well as all employees of those companies, may not make contributions to, directly or indirectly, any political candidate, party, election issue or cause, or participate in any political activities, except for voting.”
Yeah and Enron had an ethics policy too ( i think you can purchase a copy on Ebay), so what that doesn’t make up for all the previous comments or contributions made by Diebold’s CEO and other corp officers. Diebold’s credibility is about zero along with the credibility of results spat out by their machines.
Posted by meade on Dec 10, 2004 at 6:36 PM Mr Jacobsen, do you really expect that we believe nothing happened in the 2004 election that shouldnt have? Because you issue a statement at all makes me wonder why you feel the need to “address” your ethics policies. We know where and we know what happened. You can run but you can’t hide. Eventually it will all catch up with you and everyone else who had their dirty hands all over this election and the 2002 election and the 2000 election. Maybe you’d have better luck convincing Fox viewers that Iraq will have a fair election, especially if Diebold is involved. Good luck with all that. All you did here is deepen my suspician and distrust of the corporate entity you work for, you know the one’s who pay you to say what you say and do what you do. You helped “elect” an illegitimate president, and now you want us to beleive the Diebold company has ethics? I suppose you are one of the “right” who also believes values won this election. Yeah, go tell it to someone who you can convince.
Teresa Scarberry
Posted by teresa on Dec 10, 2004 at 6:54 PM The exit poll of CNN showed that Bush wins in OHIO. Why you pick Zogby but not CNN’s. Also, it is well known that urban voters vote for Kerry, but Rural voters vote for Bush. So, what is the turn out ratio in this election compared to the past? Will the past exit poll model still work (assigning weights to these two types of voters)for this election? Also, there were long lines in Philadelphia too. The democrates suppressed the black voters in Philadelphia? How about long lines in other republican heavy areas? So, the leftist are not the fair in criticising. Do you have evidence of fraud to overcome Bush’s winning of 3.5 million votes and winning ten (10) more states than Kerry. If the dirty tricks worked by overturning Ohio’s election by 100,000 votes, then Kerry became the President, Do you think it is fair that Kerry lost 3.4 million popular votes and lose 10 states. The leftist, including Jesse Jackson are just communists, he is not interested in fairness, but selfish motive. Now we all see this and Jesse Jackson’s political career will finish son, for most americans know him much better.
Posted by tim on Dec 10, 2004 at 7:03 PM No Tim, we dont all “see this.” You see it the way you do because your guy won and you dont want to believe that anything foul happened. We aren’t communists, we’re Americans. We believed in our system and democracy, it’s failed us. We have very different views, but if as you said “dirty tricks” overturned the election and the outcome, then why is it that you can not believe we want to get to the truth? I have to believe that you would ask the same were the outcome different.
Teresa Scarberry
Posted by teresa on Dec 10, 2004 at 7:18 PM The picture of the United States as a symbol of “democracy” which the media and the elite would have us believe leads to many questions. It is only democratic if you have millions to sway the vote and the minds of the electorate. What kind of a democratic country will put up vast barriers to the participation of the people? Anything for power and greed seems to be the model of the great USA’s power hungry rich male dominated rulers!
recently, I saw a TV show asking for donations to feed the hungry children in the USA. I was also in New Orleans where people were in the street collecting for money to feed hungry children. I said” I belive in charity but I think you should be asking your government to feed it’s hungry children. A country that can spend billions to kill others ( dispite saying it is againsy abortion and for the death peanalty) should surely be able to feed thre children in “the land of the free.” FREE??Next week I will be going to Cuba, the country who is not afraid to tell “The land of the free”
“Keep your paws off us” we don’twant your type of democracy!!Ruth
Posted by Ruth Larson on Dec 10, 2004 at 7:29 PM Ruth is right - how many more Americans have to die trying to get to that paragon of freedom and democracy, Cuba?!?
And teresa is even funnier, in a cute sort of way (since Michael Jacobsen went to the trouble to point out the facts, now we REALLY don’t believe Diebold!).
LOL! :)
Posted by ohYeah on Dec 10, 2004 at 7:46 PM What about the interview on Air America earlier this week with the computer geek in Florida? Has then been dispelled? If not, then evidence is surfacing of computer fraud.
Posted by Candace on Dec 10, 2004 at 7:47 PM The possibility that the election was stolen certainly needs to be run to ground, yes or no, once and for all. But it troubles me that everyone seems to be avoiding the obvious, necessary things to do: (1) do another exit poll in Ohio and Florida especially, that is, a poll of those who actually voted; if that poll suggests the state result was wrong, (2) do a much more intensive canvass of the voters, soliciting affidavits wherever possible, ideally getting to every voter, but at least to an extent that reliable statisticians can testify that the margin of error is very small, less than .5%. Then if the state result still is wrong, raise hell. Sue. Demonstrate. March on Washington. Take back the government.
And if it looks as if we lost fair and square, fix to the voting machine problems—like outlawing proprietary voting machine software, make it all public domain even if you have to buy the rights—and move on.
Posted by Douglas Wilson on Dec 10, 2004 at 8:25 PM Corporate rights will always override human rights in this country. That’s why no Diebold machines will ever be impounded. That’s why their computer software is protected from scrutiny.
Is there really a reliable way to count votes? Many propose performing manual recounts of all the votes cast. Who will perform these recounts? How can you verify that the person doing the recounting isn’t rigging the recount to conform to his/her political beliefs? Many of the touch-screen machines don’t provide a paper record, so there’s no way to even do a manual recount. And what about manpower/womanpower issues? How many people and how much time would it take to do a manual recount? Look how difficult it was in Florida 4 years ago just to recount a couple of counties.
When there are such huge numbers of votes to be counted, and voters choices remain anonymous, any close election will be subject to question.
There is no question that the country will move closer towards electronic voting methods with each passing year. Instead of focusing on the impossible task of recounting this years’ election, we should direct our energies towards ensuring that future voting technology remains as free from political bias as possible.
As a previous post mentioned, a move towards public domain software would be a step in the right direction. Come on, all you progressive computer geeks out there! Come up with the software to do it.
Who knows? Maybe someday we’ll be voting over the Internet.
Posted by Aamir Zakaria on Dec 10, 2004 at 9:29 PM Stalin once said: It matters not who votes, it only matters who counts the vote. He is correct, and history repeats itself. We saw that once when Scalia threw the election to the Republicans in 2000, and then went duck hunting with Cheney, his buddy and fellow Republican.
No ethics violation at all.
In 2004, it was a more sophisticated theft. It occurred with computer hacking, overvoting, denying blacks, students and democrats the right to vote, and jacking up the tallies in Florida and Ohio. We are nowhere near as democratic as the Ukraine. Their Supreme Court has courage and character. They had the courage to order a new vote after they found fraud. Most of the Supreme Court members were appointed by Mr. Kuchma the powerful president whose candidate suffered with their opinion. Our current Republican dominated court has no independence; it is merely a clone for other fellow Republicans. Shame on Thomas, Scalia and Rehnquist. All sycophants for fellow Republicans.
Justice O’Connor should be ashamed of herself for being bullied by Scalia to vote to stop voting in Florida. We pretend we as Americans are democratic. Then why not count all the votes in America, as we lobbied to happen through our CIA involvement in the Ukraine?Stalin is correct, the election was a fraud, but no one at The New York Times, The Democratic Party or even Kerry has the courage or chutzpah to challenge Mr. Bush. Sad day in America. Bright day in the Ukraine.
Posted by Pat on Dec 10, 2004 at 10:07 PM This is hilarious. All this fuss over a “stolen” election (you lost, accept it) but not poster tries to refute any of Jacobsen’s factual claims. What a pathetic bunch of losers.
Ruth, what are these “vast barriers” you’re talking about? Long lines at polls? It’s really not that hard to register and vote if you’re eligible. If you can’t figure it out then the country’s better off without your vote. Have fun in Cuba, Ruth. Give my best to that champion of individual freedom and human rights, Fidel Castro.
Posted by Randolph on Dec 10, 2004 at 10:17 PM Tallyrand said it best: “...When government wants the ignorant to believe, we lie about it. When we do not want the fools to believe, we tell the truth. Under any sorid mask (party sic) lies the death of truth. ...”
Posted by camellion on Dec 10, 2004 at 11:51 PM I just read the Wired article. In typical awful journalistic fashion, the title is “Florida E-Vote Study Debunked” but at the end of the article they reach a much more telling conclusion!
The MIT professor who had a beef with the Berkeley study says:
“Regardless of the merits of the Berkeley study, Stewart said valid questions about the election results in Florida and elsewhere remain unanswered. To that end, a number of groups will be investigating and releasing reports in coming months.”This is important. This means that even the detractors acknowledge that there are problems that need investigation.
They did NOT give Bush’s election win legitamacy.
Posted by Eric on Dec 11, 2004 at 12:08 AM Democracy can only survive on the blood of innocent men. Fight or lose.
Posted by chauncy quiggle on Dec 11, 2004 at 12:26 AM Randolph, you’d be the first in line, at least that would be my guess, if you thought democrats stole an election. So prove to me that you won it! If Kenneth Blackwell kept democrats standing in line for hours in Ohio because he gave all the voting machines to the republican precincts, and if he deliberately sent voters letters telling them where to vote knowing that they would be turned away because they were in the wrong place, wouldnt you consider that wrong? I dont know if it was stolen or not, but I’m not ready to accept that simply because you say “get over it.” You get over that. Until you can prove to me that it was a legitimate election and and legitimate result W remains forever an illegitimate president. You can try and get over that too. Good luck. Why dont you go try living in Iraq? If you obviously believe that everything W and team bush say is the truth then Iraq must be a great place to live right now, what with freedom on the march there and all. You probably wont admit it but you’d really rather not go there, right?
Teresa Scarberry
Posted by teresa on Dec 11, 2004 at 12:51 AM Ohio was stolen mainly by good old fashioned suppression of the African American vote. Although voting machines may have played a role in Ohio, it is clearly Florida where the election was stolen with Diebold machines. According to one study, precincts with Diebold machines gave Bush 17% more votes than he should have received (according to the accurate exit polls), while those intalled with ES&S machines gave him only about 8% more and Sequoia machines on the whole gave results that were consistent with the exit polls. (Anyone who wants to know where I got this information from is welcome to write to me. I will look it up in my files for you.)
Posted by James Paterson on Dec 11, 2004 at 1:35 AM Tell you what all you Bush fanatics. Put on your eyeglasses and go ahead and IRREFUTABLY prove that Bush actually won. With all the data , all the ORIGINAL source code, all the ORIGINAL audit logs and prove that Bush won. Go ahead. If he has a clear “mandate” ( anyone who believes that comment alone is heavily under the influence of Bush brainwashing or needs a dictionary)then show it, prove it, show the records of every minute of every tabulation on election day. Actually prove that Bush won before you utter another word. Maybe as you actually try to do that you will do your homework and see what the scholars, the newsjournals ( those untainted by corporate interest) and intelligent concious people are talking about. I invite you to educate yourself by proving that Bush actually won.
Posted by Nan on Dec 11, 2004 at 2:08 AM The electorate has or will certify this election. It is NOT up to those of us that voted for Bush to prove he won, he did, if you believe there is foul play involved the burden of proof is on YOU. Frankly I don’t care if you believe if he won or not, your beliefs now do not affect the outcome.
As far as the 2000 election is concerned Harris did her job within the letter of Florida Law, the supreme court found that the decision of the Florida supreme court violated the equal protection clause of the Constitution. Gore only wanted if I remember correctly three counties recounted. So you can’t count three counties (predominatly Democratic) and not all others in a state election. That’s not fair to all the other counties that only had their votes counted once. Lastly after three recounts Gore still lost although each recount the margin of victory for Bush got smaller. So untill you have evidence not just theory (I left conspiracy out) stop making claims and find it.
Posted by giantsox on Dec 11, 2004 at 2:34 AM If anyone wants the Florida Law referenced I can do that but give me some time I don’t have my info. right in front of me.
Posted by giantsox on Dec 11, 2004 at 2:36 AM In Canada, a country of over 31 million, voting is done simply, paper ballots you mark with an X, counted by hand. Every one of our 50 states has somewhat different methods, in fact in some large cities the methods vary from precinct to precinct, and in many states, from county to county. The purpose of this is and always has been, to prevent the poor and minorities from voting in large numbers. Now, with the increasing use of electronic paperless voting, using proprietary code that no one is allowed to see, or check, you can soon kiss goodbye what little semblance of democracy you had left.
Couple that with a complacent, compromised, opposition party suffering from mass Stockholm syndrome(the DLC may actually be in the employ of Herr Rove), gerrymandering on a massive scale at more frequent intervals, a corporatized and intimidated press corp unwilling to fulfill their traditional watchdog role, more media consolidation, an unending 25 year attack on the public school system, privatization of what remains of the social safety net, and constant erosion of the middle class, massive federal debt, and now the so called “christians” weilding their clubs to create a theocracy right here at home (we suffocate democracy here, so we don’t have to do it there) and I’d say we’ll soon be the envy of ayatollahs and oligarchs everywhere. The most heavily armed, and militarily advanced. Financially and morally bankrupt. Hypocritical and arrogant, imperialistic and zenophobic, in love with death, destruction, and our own propaganda.
Any country with so many petrol guzzling SUV,s flying flags and “support our troops” stickers, while young men are dying to protect the profits of Haliburton and Exxon, and low prices at the pump, where the only public outrage is over an exposed breast during a modern gladiator game, a risque TV promo, or gay nuptuals, and not over the senseless carnage for no good reason that is taking place in Iraq, well this is a walking dead, spritual wasteland, of a nation, in it’s final cancerous stage, lashing out randomly, visiously, finally becoming the monster it once feared and fought.
I wish I hadn’t had children. I can see what’s ahead, and it isn’t pretty.
Posted by Kenneth D. Brown on Dec 11, 2004 at 9:43 AM I agree with you Kenneth. I have spent the last four years trying to live with the fact that we have a president who doesnt care about the middle class. And giantsox is right about at least one thing, the election will be certified whether it was cheated or not. All I can say to you giantsox, about your not caring whether we believe it or not is that you are just like W and his team. They obviously have no interest in whether he’s legitimate or not just as long as they get their way. You are one and the same. I have four children, ages from 17 to 25. During the election W said democrats were lying and there would be no draft. We shall see. He’s lied about everything else, he lied about that too. No child left behind? Here in Oklahoma we had to pass a lottery because our schools are in such bad shape. I am a state social worker. Guess where the major cuts went when he took us to war? The very bottom of the economic ladder, the elderly, disabled, veterans. They are trying to exist on $612 a month, yes a month. Could you do that? I could go on and on here. I dont have to prove that they cheated the elections, at least not to myself. I have spent the last four years reading, researching until I am quite sure that at the very least it was botched. But you dont care about that. What is it that you do care about? Values? I was taught as a child to be charitable, lend a hand to those less fortunate than myself, to be kind, to follow the ten commandments. The one that sticks in my mind right now is Thou shalt not kill. How do you reconcile the things that bush says with what he does? I dont doubt his sincere belief that he is a christian, but sincerity doesnt make it so. War and killing are not christian principles. My children, your children (if you have any), and our grandchildren and their children will be paying for this war for years and years to come. If they dont die fighting it first. We are mortgaging their lives to fund death and try and force a democracy in a country that doesnt want us there. We dont have a democracy here any longer. Its so ironic that W keeps talking about the elections in Iraq going forward, we are a laughing stock to the rest of the world (part of that research is reading the foreign press)they dont believe we had a fair election here either. Do you care about that? When you get right down to it this is precisely the problem, there are too many of us here in America that simply dont care, about so many things. Too many who want to turn their backs and bury their heads and pretend that we are still the leaders of the free world. Cling to that, maybe it will sustain you during the next four years of death, economic decline, privitization of social security, no health care, less and less for the middle class and the poor, more and more for the wealthy and elite. I said this in an earlier post, why dont you prove to me that it wasnt cheated and that W really won it, you cant do it any more than I can prove to you that he didnt win. As you said, you dont have to because he won. Well that is your belief and may it sustain you over the next four years. But as for me, I do care, I care about a lot of things.
Teresa Scarberry
Posted by teresa on Dec 11, 2004 at 1:34 PM I think it’s really funny that the people who are more pissed off in this forum are the right-wing people.
All that the (moderate) democrats want here is for the situation to be investigated properly. Transparency is the pillar of a free country. One of the most important things for America is to know who actually won, whoever that may be.
If you want to talk about communism or use other dirty labels to shoot some one down, it’s time to take a better look at yourself. Sure, you have your man in the white house, but do you really want to live in a country where people have lost the ability to question the actions of the leaders? That is how you keep these people honest - and that means whoever it may be: the democrats, the republicans, the liberals in Canada. I’ve heard of countries where you can’t speak badly about the president and it doesn’t sound pretty.
If you take away the freedom of speech of the public - and that’s what you are doing by calling everyone who has an anti-republican a communist or a conspiracy theorist - you are giving the government absolute power, which invariably will lead to corruption in some form.
This should have nothing to do with partisanship and everything to do with keeping America free. These exit poll result disparities, no matter how you look at them, are a significant phenomenon that at least have the right to be investigated. Let the people have their say, this is too important to be dismissed.
Posted by Dan on Dec 11, 2004 at 2:05 PM Looka me!! I’m a fucking retard who thinks that Bush is a good idea! Go militant version of Jesus! Kill them Ayrab scum. Teach ‘em a lesson, and call it spreading freedom and democracy
If halting a recount in the middle of the process passes for democracy these days, then I must have gone back to 1954, and am currently in the Soviet Union. After all, they had ‘elections’ too. Elections where even the opposition candidate would vote for Stalin. Are we there yet? No. When will we arrive? 2010, by my count. Can’t wait to see you there!
MojoXN
Posted by MojoXN on Dec 11, 2004 at 2:38 PM WAS THE ELECTION STOLEN?
A most specific and comprehensive indictment can be found at the following link:
http://onlinejournal.com/Special_Reports/120604Madsen/120604madsen.html
The Report makes fascinating reading. I do not understand why (multiple) heads are not rolling, starting with George’s.
Posted by Evelyn vdR on Dec 11, 2004 at 2:53 PM Mr. Jacobsen,
Please forgive us if we all seem a little skeptical about your voting machines and the ethics of your company. Might I make a couple suggestions regarding your machines that might help to alleviate the skepticism, while at the same time inspiring some confidence in future elections.
1) Provide a verifiable paper trail that would allow an audit of election results. What rational reason is there for this not being part of your machines?
2) Make available to the public the source code used to count our votes. They are, after all, our votes, not yours.
You also must forgive us for being a little skeptical about your company’s ethics. This may stem from the fact that your CEO Wally O’Dell famously stated “I am committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the President next year.” I am also curious as to why your new found ethical tenets did not apply to the July fundraiser at Mr. O’Dell’s house, attended by Vice President Cheney, where $500,000 was apparently raised for Dick.
Your inability to make these changes and explain these ethical inconsistenties will allow me no other choice, but to suggest that you can shove your secretive, paperless machines right up Mr. O’Dell’s unethical piehole.
Regards,
Matt Harris
Founder and CEO
Shove Your Lame-Ass Voting Machines, Inc.
Posted by Matt Harris on Dec 11, 2004 at 6:35 PM The draft proposal was brought up by a two Democratic senators not Bush.
Posted by giantsox on Dec 11, 2004 at 6:36 PM I did a little more research and the bill was originally sponsored by two democratic reps. Charles Rangel and Ernest Hollings also it is co sponsored by one idiot republican Chuck Hangel. So before you blame Bush you might want to look at your own party to Teresa. This Iraq war is the new Vietnam to the press they love bemoaning about the bad stuff and never report anything good. How can people claim to support the troops and talk about the atrocities they’re committing in the same sentence. As far as the debt is concerned you are absolutely right but with a more aggresive fiscal policy our children won’t be paying for it. As far as privatization for social security let’s do it. It’s a failing institution that rewards people for not planning ahead I continue to plan my retirement around the fact that it won’t be there or I will be deemed inelligible to receive benefits. But I’m sick of these sob stories about people who can’t help themselves at all. Granted there are people in these situations but the way most people go on is that everyone is on the brink of disaster. I have made some incredibly dumb choices in my life which I pay for now. I will not ask the gov’t or any other citizen to bail me out. I believe in life the words innocent and victim are coupled together entirely too much. We are a nation that does not hold ourselves accountable and blame the gov’t first attitude. Don’t you think possibly we as Americans, who charge everything and pay for it later or claim bankruptcy instead might have something to do with a poor economy? Probably. Eveyone on this board screams about the only reason this war is going on is over oil, but I’ll bet qutie a few drive SUV’s and trucks. If it is over oil then make more fuel efficient purchases. I mean stop asking the government for help and think of ways you can fix the problem. That’s empowerment.
Posted by giantsox on Dec 11, 2004 at 7:13 PM Democracy is where people have a choice of whom they can vote for - is where people can run for elections - WITHOUT - having a bankroll of millions of dollars.
The CHOICE of the people was between BUSH and KERRY - SOME CHOICE!! The US people did not even have the coice to vote for a lefty democrat!!!!!!!!!!
By the way, the US people like to go to Cuba - I have met them there but they are afraid of the reprecussions of their “DEMOCRATIC” government when they get back to the “LAND OF THE FREE”>
Is this democracy??
Ruth
Posted by Ruth Larson on Dec 11, 2004 at 10:51 PM giantsox, you are correct about who proposed the draft. if you will go back and read what I said you will see that what I said was bush is the one who declared that there would be NO draft. there is a difference. I see things in the media totally differently than you do. They continually show bush painting a rosy picture of how great it’s all coming along. The best way to “fix” our problems is to admit we have them and start cleaning house in Washington, a good start would be WITH FAIR ELECTIONS.
Teresa Scarberry
Posted by teresa on Dec 11, 2004 at 10:59 PM Ok Giantsox, can we take away all the corporate welfare, all the state monopolies, all the middle class to upper class welfare, all the tax’s cuts to rich families, all agro-corporate welfare, all military industrial welfare, all political welfare, all the elite college welfare?
When we do, then, my friend, we have a deal about empowerment, rational choice, and self reliance. The funny thing about you Americans is you think you don’t live in a quasi-socialist country where subsides and welfare rule. In fact at the moment the US is looking a somewhere between corporatism and National Socialism.
Posted by nic on Dec 11, 2004 at 11:03 PM Nic -
Slowly we have become and still are advancing towards a national socialism, a policy which I don’t agree with. But to have empowerment one does not need to get rid of these programs, the person just shouldn’t rely on them. You need to have some gov’t regulation if not the corporations would benefit from the lower class more than they already do. But instead of regulating corporations we as consumers can do more damage than the gov’t if we work together. For example if people in the U.S. would actually start living within their means pay off their debt and stop charging things,we could bring many corporations (mainly the banking industry) to their collective knees. While this is an unlikely scenario it’s a possibility. Most people are against out-sourcing but shop at Wal-mart because of cheap prices. You wanna change the fact that most of the items they sell are manufactured over seas? Stop shopping there. If enough people unite, who needs the gov’t to bring jobs back over here. Bottom line greed drives everyone, we all want more, if we cut into the corporate profit and do our part we stand a better chance for success than electing an official that was put into office by these corporations. But Americans are too lazy to do anything for themselves anymore. I’m just as guilty as everyone else. I know Bush won’t do anything about out sourcing but what candidate will? Don’t tell me John Kerry would’ve because we know a large portion of Heinz is over seas. Fact is no candidate will, if you guys are truly progressive than we should abandon the idea that you all are leftys and I’m a righty and we should work together, if enough of us do it we can beat these evil corporations I read so much about on this web site.As for making public the code for the electronic voting machines, if you make something like that public yes it can be scrutinized more, but it also makes it more vulnurable to hackers. They can easily find ways around it.
Posted by giantsox on Dec 12, 2004 at 12:47 AM Another stolen election? If you have to ask the question then we have a problem. All computers can spit out paper trails. Why Republican owned voting machine companies insist on paperless voting is obvious. No way to do a recount! Forget hanging chads when you can have dangling software codes. So much cleaner with no after election recourse other than spitting out the same pre-programmed result. What a joke! Unfortunately, it’s on all of us. All electronic voting machines should have a paper receipt for the voter, who will verify a paper ballot result that is printed at the same time. Both electronic and voter paper ballots are then counted from each precinct in America with the dual result compared with sign-in voting poll registrations. Any discrepancy can then be challenged and investigated. Lets have a neutral computer company develop the equipment in conjunction with a National Elections Commission and then distribute them to every precinct in America. Then have a special national election in 2005 and do the November 2, 2004, voting over on all those new machines during a work free/school free election holiday. Then let’s see who wins. I will never consider Bush/Cheney the legitimate leaders of this country until they can prove they can win such a verifable result election, without them having their party hacks controlling the vote tabulations and process in a dual conflict of interest role as Bush/Cheney Campaign Managers while serving as Secretary of State in any state. Without such recourse and legitimacy this country will soon boil over. At the moment, it’s just beginning to simmer.
Posted by Cat Man on Dec 12, 2004 at 1:23 AM I think the draft as proposed by Rangel was a great idea. It was actually aimed at creating mandatory military or civil service for all young Americans. Another of Rangel’s stated aims was to create an economically more diverse military force. Currently and throughout history our military is disproportionately made up of people who come from lower income families.
While the reason for this is obvious during a time of an all-volunteer force, it continues to be true during times where a selective draft has been in force. For example, during the Civil War you could simply buy your way out of service if you were wealthy. And during the Viet Nam war people of wealth and privilege were able to avoid the draft by getting cushy assignments, such as to various state National Guard units that faced no real prospect of being sent overseas.
That is why the mandatory service option would be so great in theory. All people, including those of wealth and power would be directly affected by decisions to send our troops into harm’s way. Whether it was a grandchild, niece, nephew or child, nearly everyone in America would have a personal stake to think about when the country was being rallied or propagandized for war.
Just think if all of those Americans, whose only debate in the run-up to the Iraq War was in choosing between the yellow ribbon that says support our troops or the red, white and blue one, would have instead shown their patriotism by seriously exploring and debating whether it was the right thing to do or not, we might have 1,284 more young Americans alive today. In fact they may not have even been forced to make the choice. Those pushing the country into war might have actually considered the lives of the troops more carefully and re-thought their presentation of manipulated data and outright lies.
Of course the bill had no real chance of passing. I think it got less than a handful of votes in the House. I believe that even Rangel and at least one of the co-sponsors voted against it. It was more of a political move than anything. And it truly would be naïve to believe that the bill would have had its full stated effect. The rich and powerful would probably have simply come up with ways for their children and grandchildren to serve in the gravy civil service positions.
Posted by Matt Harris on Dec 12, 2004 at 1:26 AM Plain and simple, the election, just as in 2000, was stolen. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see that Florida would most certainly not put out a higher bush vote this time around. The results were tallied and in key areas, the votes were manipulate to reflect a bush majority. An example would be the counties that reflected 3 times the number of votes for bush than total people registered in that county. What’s that? a computer glitch? No. that’s voter fraud. Commited by the republican party. Plain and simple.
Posted by Dave on Dec 12, 2004 at 1:28 AM For those of you able and interested, tomorrow at noon rallies to publicize election fraud in the recent elections are being organized at all the state capitals and various other select cities. Here is the link to the site that gives information about each state:
http://www.51capitalmarch.com/stateContacts.shtml
Time to get visible in the fight for our country.
Posted by Matt Harris on Dec 12, 2004 at 2:09 AM I’m a computer tech and I can tell you that hacking into the vote tabulations would be a piece of cake. Their security was ridiculously poor. The truth is “if it can be hacked it will be hacked” Take a look at the Hack the Vote website which was put up by a computer security specialist:
http://www.chuckherrin.com/hackthevote.htm
Posted by Mary Ann on Dec 12, 2004 at 4:30 AM Mary Ann is dead on.
Anyone who has any doubts that the election could have been easily hacked should read Chuck Herrin’s web site, worth repeating:
http://www.chuckherrin.com/hackthevote.htm .
Herrin, a computer security expert, shows you exactly how to download for yourself a copy of the Diebold GEMS software (which was used for 2004 central vote tabulation in about half of the USA), and how to make changes to the unprotected Microsoft Access database which underlies it.
If you go through this step-by-step exercise as I did, you will see for yourself that the Diebold software is a joke.
Herrin says it fails to meet basic norms of computer security commonly accepted throughout the industry.
Herrin also says more attention needs to be focused on possible vote fraud in the central tabulating systems which could, in one fell swoop, affect the results from many machines of all types, optical scanners, paperless, etc., as well as absentee ballots.
With regard to Dr. Steven Freeman’s exit poll discrepancies in 10 out of 11 swing states, Herrin comes to the same conclusion that I’d already reached, namely that the ease with which Diebold’s shoddy software can be hacked makes this a simpler and more probable explanation than say Dick Morris’ hypothetical “liberal media conspiracy to fix the exit polls.”
Finally, I would like Mike Jacobsen of Diebold to respond to the remainder of what follows, all of is taken verbatim from Herrin’s web site:
——
Check this out - No less than 5 people (Cooper, Lee, Graye, Elder, and Dean - http://www.blackboxvoting.org/bbv_chapter-8.pdf ) involved with the management and development of Diebold’s systems are convicted felons, including Senior Vice President Jeff Dean, and topping the list are his twenty-three counts of felony Theft in the First Degree. According to the findings of fact in case no. 89-1-04034-1 (Washington State, King County District Court):
“Defendant’s thefts occurred over a 2 1/2 year period of time, there were multiple incidents, more than the standard range can account for, the actual monetary loss was substantially greater than typical for the offense, the crimes and their cover-up involved a high degree of sophistication and planning in the use and alteration of records in the computerized accounting system that defendant maintained for the victim, and the defendant used his position of trust and fiduciary responsibility as a computer systems and accounting consultant for the victim to facilitate the commission of the offenses.”
To sum up, he was convicted of 23 felony counts of theft from by - get this - planting back doors in his software and using a “high degree of sophistication” to evade detection. The reason for the embezzlement? He needed the money because “he was embezzling in order to pay blackmail over a fight he was involved in, in which a person died.” A little more:BlackBoxVoting.org’s associate director Andy Stephenson obtained the court records of Jeffrey Dean which noted that the King County, Washington prosecutor was after him for over $500,000 in restitution.
“So now we have someone who’s admitted that he’s been blackmailed over killing someone, who pleaded guilty to 23 counts of embezzlement, who is given the position of senior programmer of the (Diebold) GEMS central tabulator system that counts approximately 50 percent of the votes in the (Bush-Kerry) election, in 30 states, both paper ballot and touch screen,” said Stephenson.
In addition, Dean told prosecutors (whose offices were on the ninth floor of the King County courthouse) that he was unemployed, when in fact he was working for Diebold who afforded him with 24-hour access to Diebold’s King County, Washington GEMS central tabulator, according to Stephenson. (Dean worked on the GEMS tabulator on the fifth floor of the same King County courthouse!) http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2004/10/301469.shtml
Do you trust computer systems designed by this man? Is trust important in electronic voting systems?
——
Posted by Michael Bein on Dec 12, 2004 at 6:06 AM Using computers to vote is a BIG JOKE. A software programer working for the voting machine company can change the course of history. So Forget it, it’s over. This is not the America we once knew. We lost our country.
Posted by Spike on Dec 12, 2004 at 6:25 AM There is no BASIS for confidence in the legitimacy of the results reported from US federal elections. For more info on the No Confidence Movement, please see:
http://guvwurld.blogspot.com/2004/11/no-confidence-movement-primer.html
Posted by GuvWurld on Dec 12, 2004 at 9:01 AM did you know you can’t post a libertarian party link here…..it is blacklisted
look for michael BADNARIK and B A D N A R I K . O R G
Posted by Mike on Dec 12, 2004 at 1:21 PM look for the constitution videos on the mike badnarik site
THIS IS A MUST SEE FOR ALL AMERICANS
THE ONLY WAY OUT OF THIS IS TO KNOW YOUR RIGHTSVIEW THE CONSTITUTION VIDEOS (7X 150 MB OR SO) THEY ARE FREE TO DOWNLOAD
Posted by Mike on Dec 12, 2004 at 1:25 PM Using computers to process financial data is a BIG JOKE. A software programmer working for the financial institution can steal any of the money he wants. SO forget it, its over. We loat all our money and our country.
Oh wait - they do that all the time. My bad.
Posted by sure on Dec 12, 2004 at 5:27 PM Mr. Mike Jacobsen, Director, Global Communications, Diebold, Incorporated.
That’s another way of saying: Mr. Mike Jacobson, the top liar in charge misinformation on behalf of a company hired by republican governors and legislatures to commit election fraud in favor of republicans.
You should be proud Mr. Jacobson.
Posted by Lefty on Dec 12, 2004 at 6:24 PM “In the December 6 Nation, Alexander Cockburn dismissed such speculation…”
Screw Cockburn. This is my response to his inexplicable willful ignorance:
Posted by Doraemi on Dec 13, 2004 at 6:04 AM Here ya go.
http://www.lp.org/
Paper ballots that are designed for easy selection of an unequivocal choice of candidate, that’s what’s best. The same design standardized form used across the country is also best, although there will be a period of hassle while they decide which of the hundreds of designs fill the bill. The paper copies should be stored for a reasonably lenghy period at federal expense, categorized by state and county (I almost said district, but those keep getting gerrymandered out of shape) and should be available for review by a party that disputes the election at THEIR OWN expense. Unlike financial transactions, elections have no long-standing or redundant data sources that can be checked when trying to recover or review information that is lost or incorrectly recorded. At the very least, a national election should not have been conducted with machines that couldn’t be shown in advance to be trustworthy, and I mean as close to 100% trustworthy as you can get. I’m surely not happy that Bush got a second term, but it does seem to be the responsibility of those who dispute an election to produce enough evidence to spur an investigation of election fraud. Paper ballots wouldn’t negate future controversies, but these machines and touch-screens were debatable long before the election and they’re clearly more trouble than they’re worth, if an accurate, indisputable count is the goal.
Posted by Kuya on Dec 13, 2004 at 6:14 AM Sorry for the crap grammar and spelling, I should have said that the ballot form should be standardized across the nation. The main idea is, the process of voting and the results should be characterized by clarity, simplicity, and an openness to inspection. Hardly the case today.
On a tangent, do check out the Libertarians. Not above reproach and a few silly ideas, but certainly worthy of serious consideration.
Posted by Kuya on Dec 13, 2004 at 6:25 AM Re: Diebold. So, convicted felons, or anybody whose name happens to be the same, can’t vote in Florida.
BUT convicted felon buddies of the Bush administration ARE allowed to program the voting software??? What a bunch of B.S.>BIG JOKE. A software programmer working for the >financial institution can steal any of the >money he wants. SO forget it, its over. We loat >all our money and our country.
>Oh wait - they do that all the time. My bad.You obviously know nothing about the software programming issues involved with GEMS and touch-screen-voting. If all financial institutions used such flawed, easy-to-hack software, then YES we would have all lost our money ages ago.
However, financial institutions generally aren’t so stupid. They implement things called “security” and “tracability” into their systems. GEMS doesn’t. And it is obvious why not.
America the Free, Rest in Peace.
Posted by MikeyCan on Dec 13, 2004 at 7:06 AM Ironic that an electronic slot machine is more secure than a voting machine.
Posted by Kuya on Dec 13, 2004 at 7:25 AM I voted for kerry ... and I KNOW that he won the election and they stole it just as they did in 2000… but sadly just as in 2000 WE won’t be able to PROVE it ... especially THIS time because PROPRIATIARY SOFTWARE did it… look i’ve been a professional software engineer for 25 years .... i have written code for all sorts of applications (from the assembly language level to using 4th generation languages) and i said this BEFORE the election….
“I can change your vote in ONE LINE of code and you would have NO CLUE that it happened!!!!!”
Posted by Lauren Laboe on Dec 13, 2004 at 8:52 AM Whether the 2004 electiopn was stolen electronically or not is sort of irrelevant.
The point is: The 2000 vote was definitely stolen, this has been demonstrated over and over again without the slightest attempt at refutation, therefore, GWB is not a president he is a dictator. At least 50% of his policymaking was geared towards reelection, that 50% being the war in Iraq, which is serving many purposes at once. Thumbing his nose at the world community with by refusing to sign the Kyoto Protocol was another such action to feed the isolationist potential in the USA.
It’s so patently obvious. In the year 2000, the United States of America became a corporate dictatorship. A kind of oligarchy in the old Latin American style. A banana republic: economically, socially, politically and militarily. And spiritually the country is bankrupt, which is why it happened. Only a completely defunct faith will believe that every word written in the Bible is true AT FACE VALUE.
The good news is: You seldom appreciate freedom until you lose it. When We, as a collective, realize we have been shafted end-to-end, the neocons will have to hope and pray for rapture, because it will be the only way for them to get away from the heat. The Second American Revolution is on its way.
Posted by Talleyrand on Dec 13, 2004 at 9:51 AM Diebold makes cash machines that put out a receipt, but they can’t or won’t do this for voting machines.
Several companies print Bingo cards designed to be filled in with a 1/2” ink blotter pen with letters millions of differently abled elder persons can read.
Republican blowhards know the election was stolen, know the votes of minorities were actively and passively suppressed, and will not admit it because it makes them as bad as they always claimed the Democrats were. Gaze not into the abyss, bitches, for the abyss is looking back at you.
Republican loonies know the war in Iraq is wrong but feel that it is okay because it reaffirms their shriveled virility by proxy. Most Republicans only want to abuse their own families or other proxies (Phil Giordano, Susan Smith, Mr. Tax Break Poster Boy Pastor, the Catholic Church), but by lashing out at supposed inferiors it rebuilds their threatened sense of personhood, because no doubt they were abused by their families before them. Ann Coulter, meet Dr. Phil.
Posted by Bigfoot on Dec 13, 2004 at 10:01 AM the american public and the “liberal” media (hell, is that label ever a joke…) don’t want to listen to “conspiracy theories” because it’s old hat. that was the news in 2000; to bring it up again makes one sound like Michael Moore or some other pinko-commie liberal. Still sticking like a bloodsucking leech in America’s collective consciousness is a fear of anything leftist, remaining from our McCarthyite days. So strong is this fear people are willing to suspend its democracy to defend it, to give up free speech and criticism of the government to save us from Communist takeover.
this fear pervades both major parties. as hellen keller—a Socialist—once said “Our democracy is but name. We vote? What does that mean? It means that we choose between two bodies of real, though not avowed, autocrats. We choose between Tweedledum and Tweddledee….” It is important that we demand investigation of potential fraud, especially considering how the evidence stacks up. However, as some other posters have mentioned, would it really matter? Would Kerry have been so much different?
Posted by Brandon Getz on Dec 13, 2004 at 1:47 PM It maddens me to think (or read) of the inevitability of Bush being inaugurated because of time constraints, regardless of the result of election investigations proceeding! Are we to recognize a proven fraud?
Posted by Pat on Dec 13, 2004 at 5:12 PM Just as in 2000 I see tons of allegations but no rock solid proof.
Posted by giantsox on Dec 13, 2004 at 9:04 PM History shows us that, the “White” House, has
only allowed, “White” Men to run and be elected for Presidency. In the past we had “Whites Only” restrooms, water fountains, and so on. Naming the governing house a color, is truly, “inyourface” conspiracy to control by fraud. Because… we all know that the only time we state the color of a house, is when giving specific directions for locating the house, other than that, we should refer to it as “Our House”, or “United House”, any name that represents us all.
Only then will the elections be fair and just!
Posted by Gloria Young on Dec 14, 2004 at 2:41 PM I don’t know for sure if the vote was stolen, but I do think it’s telling that the Republicans and conservatives, as well as the owners of electronic voting machines, are so opposed to a recount. Counting the votes would, at the very least, determine if or how much fraud or error was involved. There are just too many instances of long lines, incorrect information being fed to vulnerable groups of citizens (the “terror alert” in one Ohio County being just one case), long lines for Democratic polling places with easy access in Republican ones, the Ohio county where nearly 4,000 votes were registered for Bush when less than 700 people actually voted, accounts of attempts to vote for Kerry and Bush’s name appearing for confirmation, and third party candidates receiving far more votes than common sense dictates to believe that the entire voting process was fair and honest. That does not mean that Kerry won; it just means that there are strong indications that there was voter suppression, purposely instigated voter confusion, and apparent voting machine irregularities.
When one of my family members in Maryland went to vote, a city commissioner from her town told her that he had to vote three times to get Kerry to appear on the confirmation screen instead of Bush. I imagine that nearly everyone can find at least one friend or acquaintance who either had trouble voting or is just one step removed from someone who did. If it happened in Maryland and in Ohio, it probably happened in other places too.
Having said all that, my reaction to (or perhaps my rationalization for) the Bush “victory” was to realize that perhaps a Kerry win would not, in the long run, be best for the Democrats. One can just imagine the constant battering Kerry would have taken from the Republican majority in congress, the investigations into his private life - past and present, the allegations against his wife, the impossibility of his achieving any of his or the Democrats’ goals during his tenure. And four years from now, after the media has a feeding frenzy at the trough of Kerry-bashing, the country would undoubtedly elect another Republican. Without a serious counter-battle from the Democrats (not likely given their abysmal record), we could be in for a Republican takeover for decades to come.
An aside: It’s always amazing to me how incredibly hard it is to read most of the rightwing, conservative comments on this site due to their phenomenal lack of attention to grammar, spelling, and coherent phrasing. It’s not limited to the rightwingers, but there’s a decided slant toward poor writing skills among them. Tim (above) is an outstanding example.
And finally, isn’t it funny how pissed off the Republicans always are, even when they are in control of everything? They control the judiciary, administration, congress, and the big businesses that dictate the content of our media, our commerce, and many of the other aspects of our lives. And they still resort to namecalling (traitors! communists! antiAmerican troop-haters!), mudslinging, and nasty little whisper campaigns as a matter of course. Why are they so furious all the time?
Posted by LeeAnn Gallucci on Dec 14, 2004 at 5:42 PM Hi LeeAnn - i have the same thoughts as you state below. These comments seem appropriate especially for the liberal (majority) here. . . (but to be fair, i mostly care about WHAT is said, rather than spelling and grammer - however, i really detest the namecalling that takes place on both sides.)
LeeAnn wrote: “An aside: It’s always amazing to me how incredibly hard it is to read most of the rightwing, conservative comments on this site due to their phenomenal lack of attention to grammar, spelling, and coherent phrasing. It’s not limited to the rightwingers, but there’s a decided slant toward poor writing skills among them. Tim (above) is an outstanding example.
snip. . . And they still resort to namecalling (traitors! communists! antiAmerican troop-haters!), mudslinging, and nasty little whisper campaigns as a matter of course. Why are they so furious all the time? ”
Posted by howFunny on Dec 14, 2004 at 7:37 PM Heh heh, Good point, LeeAnn. They are always so mad at everything, for daring to disagree with them. That’s fundamentalism for you.
On the vote fraud: are these machines perfect? Even they would hesitate to say so. OK, so what is the error margin? If there is one, then don’t we need, as everyone says, a reliable backup, so that results can be consistently monitored and double checked in the case of a dispute. Pretty elementary safeguards IF you want to be seen to transparently fair and above board. So we can only draw the conclusion that they have no interest in transparency or accountability. Funny that, when they are so keen on promoting ‘democracy’ to other countries, and are so sure the Ukrainian vote was rigged (on the evidence of exit polls!!). It doesn’t matter if who got into the White House - there is no guarantee or confidence in the result when there is no independent verification available. they have succeeded in the last two elections in making a mockery of the vote, so now it is impossible to be sure what the real result was, even if Bush still had won. We simply don’t know. Greatest nation on earth? give us a break, plenty ‘lesser’ nations can organise ballots which can be checked as many times as you like until all parties are satisfied.When challenges can be mounted, it lessens the likelihood of fraud, because it is easy to double check. It is not rocket science, but it is transparency and accountability. that the US government, the media or most of the people are unconcerned about this is a telling indication of how debased popular debate has become.
Posted by Richard on Dec 14, 2004 at 7:50 PM Touche, howFunny!
I guess I did resort to a kind of name-calling with my comments about the grammar and spelling. In my own defense, it was a reaction to the rather insulting and shallow arguments made by Tim rather than just the writing style. It seems that the rightwingers and conservatives who haunt liberal sites and submit comments rarely have intellectual insights or informed opinions. Instead it’s pretty much the “you elitist know-nothings are all commies and should crawl back in your holes” kind of rhetoric that just pushes my buttons and makes me want to let them know how ignorant they are. Seems like if you want to insult people, you’d have a better argument if you used proper English to do it.
Posted by LeeAnn Gallucci on Dec 14, 2004 at 9:33 PM Have you considered that it makes little difference who of the 2 major parties gets in? Did you once hear Kerry say that we should get out of Iraq like he stood up and stated during the Vietnam conflict? No, I suggest to you that both Bush and Kerry belong to the Skull & Bones and are cut from the same cloth. Why did’nt Kerry make some kind of stink when Ohio & Florida both lost handily, why was he so quick to make his acceptance speech? Kerry knew what the outcome was going to be and had to accept it. Certainly their was voter theft using computors. Rember GIGO? The new world order advocates and Izraely Zionests (spelling), currently in power, must stay in power to try to achieve their long term objectives. You read between the lines. It had to turn out the way it did and there is little anyone can do about it.
Thanks Bob
Posted by Bob Trumbo on Dec 14, 2004 at 11:03 PM Well, there it is ‘the long term objectives’ of the ‘Izraely Zionests’. It’s so obvious now that it’s spelled out for me. Two pages of argument, but at last we know the truth. It’s the Gews people, the Gews.
Posted by clark Nitrate on Dec 14, 2004 at 11:18 PM Ban computerized voting machines. End of story.
Posted by Constitution Is My Bible on Dec 15, 2004 at 3:46 PM Hey LeeAnn - For what it is worth, i like reading your posts. Especially when i don’t agree with them. After all, if we all had the same opinions, why bother to post at all?
Have a Merry Christmas (or whatever holiday you may happen to celebrate).
Posted by howFunny on Dec 15, 2004 at 4:06 PM I think Bob needs to stay off the jews (spelling).
Posted by Matt Harris on Dec 15, 2004 at 10:29 PM while it is always frightening to be reminded of the icky nasties that go on in this world, particularily of the World Leader variety, it is immensely heartening to be reminded of all of the Truth minded people who are working, thinking and discussing. What’s that Margaret Mead quote? thanks, folks
Posted by ntara curry on Dec 16, 2004 at 6:11 PM Leann-
I resent that I spel most wurdz rite, and I don’t insult you guys (much).
Posted by giantsox on Dec 16, 2004 at 8:12 PM All of us,as AMERICANS,who believe in democracy,a government by and for the people,true representation,a voice in the decisions that affect our lives,should take very seriously the question of whether this election result was real or a fraud.ALL OF US,Republicans, Demecrats,Independants,Liberals,Joe Blows,Jane Does,Gays,Straights,Christians,Jews,Muslims,Atheists,Buddhists,Blacks,Whites, Browns,Yellows,Reds,Rich and poor,ALL OF US,have a vested interest in settling this issue.all of us!!!
Posted by mike on Dec 17, 2004 at 2:40 AM I do find it interesting that Diebold felt it nessesary to post on this site.What was it that Shakespeare said? “Me thinks thou dost protest to much”.
Posted by mike on Dec 17, 2004 at 2:55 AM Yes, interesting that they come to this site, instead of opening up their processes to independent scrutiny, and ensuring backups of the voting, so that the results can be double checked and the vote rendered transparent. Also dubious that they would rather bluster than demonstrate the efficiency of their machines. If they are confident of their accuracy then they won’t mind at all proving it, and in fact ought to be rather keen on demonstrating it to the world. What have you got to hide Diebold? And please spare us the old ‘commerical confidentiality’ routine.
Posted by Ian on Dec 17, 2004 at 2:20 PM Exit Polls Vs. Election Outcomes
In the general debate comparing exit polls and election outcomes, there are two fundamental weaknesses in analyses of differences between exit polls and election outcomes. The weaknesses are: 1) calculating error between poll and election outcomes and, 2) the effect of sample design in calculating sample error for cluster samples used for exit polls.
Here I use Steven Freeman’s paper “The Unexplained Exit Poll Discrepancy” only as an example. This discussion applies to any of the exit poll vs. election outcome analyses which seem to come up after any election. Note that exit poll survey data are used here, not survey data weighted by actual election returns which would be redundant.
OUTCOME VS. EXIT POLL ERROR
Freeman: “The conventional wisdom going into this election was that three critical states would likely determine who would win the Presidential election - - Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Florida. In each of these states, however, exit polls differed significantly from recorded tallies.” Freeman in Table 1 uses “Tallied vs. predicted” as his source data. In Ohio, Pennsylvania, and Florida, the differences between Bush’s final tallies [outcomes] and his earlier exit poll percentages were, respectively, 6.7%, 6.5%, and 4.9%.
Differences between poll and election margins in statistical analysis should not be used. It is the poll estimate that is subject to sample error, not margins; e.g., 48% voting for A and 52% for B. Error on the margin effectively overstates estimate error by a factor of two. This is also complies with National Council on Public Polls post-election poll analyses.
Elections are zero-sum games. Two points high for one candidate means two points low for the other. Vote estimate errors for each candidates are not additive which is the effect of using margins in an analysis.
The differences between exit poll estimates and final election outcomes in these key states subject to tests of significance are as follows:
Ohio Bush: Exit poll 47.9%; outcome 51.0%. Difference +3.1
Ohio Kerry: Exit poll 52.1%; outcome 48.5%. Difference -3.6Pennsylvania Bush: Exit poll 45.4%; Outcome 48.6%. Difference +3.2
Pennsylvania Kerry: Exit poll 54.1%; Outcome 50.8%. Difference -3.3Florida Bush: Exit poll 49.8%; Outcome 52.1%. Difference +2.3
Florida Kerry: Exit poll 49.7%; Outcome 47.1% Difference -2.6Differences between poll estimates and election outcomes range from –2.6 to +3.6, not 4.9% to 6.7%.
EXIT POLL STATISTICAL ERROR
The conclusion that “exit polls differed significantly from recorded tallies” in the three states is incorrect.
However, Freeman’s page 6 footnote is correct: “This analysis assumes a simple random sample. If on the other hand, states were broken into clusters (e.g., precincts) and then the clusters (precincts) were randomly selected (sampling individuals within those selected precincts), the variances would increase.”
By necessity, exit poll samples are cluster samples. The number of precincts in states typically number in the thousands. Wisconsin, for example, has 3,700 precincts. Illinois, a larger state, has 10,000.
Standard error assuming a simple random sample is calculated, but only as a first step. A confidence level of at least 99% is assumed - higher than the customary 95% - probably because of the higher standard of precision for exit polls and the number of races involved, about 100 across the states including the race for president and races for senate and governor on November 2.
A measure called the Design Effect must then be calculated to adjust the standard error for the cluster sampling effect. The magnitude of the Design Effect depends on the average number of interviews per precinct in each a state sample. The smaller the number of average interviews per precinct in a state, the smaller the design effect. Design Effect also differs by characteristic and can be much larger for characteristics highly clustered by precincts such as race. Design Effect is a variance measure so the square root is used to multiply the standard errors.
Without knowing the number of precincts sampled, you can’t calculate the Design Effect. But Design Effect square roots are said to have typically ranged from 1.5 to 1.8 in the November exit poll. I used 1.6 as a “best estimate”.
Conclusion. All of the state estimates above are well within their error calculations below.
Ohio, n = 2020. Sqrt (.5 X .5) / Sqrt 2020 X 2.6 X 1.6 = +/- 4.6%.
Pennsylvania, n = 2107. Sqrt (.5 X .5) / Sqrt 2107 X 2.6 X 1.6 = +/- 4.5%.
Florida, n = 2862. Sqrt (.5 X .5) / Sqrt 2862 X 2.6 X 1.6 = +/- 3.8%.
Nick Panagakis
Posted by nick panagakis on Dec 17, 2004 at 4:06 PM If any one is foolish enough to believe that Bush won the election, then they surely are foolish to believe in going to Iraq right now to fight in Iraq. I think every Bush voter should be required to go to Iraq no questions asked. We will put them on the front lines with their “armored” vehicles and keep them longer than they are required to stay. They can practice their “faith” (I call it blind faith) every day praying they don’t die. I think after Iraq they should then move to a theocracy in the mideast to fully understand what happens when church and government become one. They then should tell people how pro-life they are when children around them die from American corporations exploit the workers. I will say to any fascist (Bush supporter) that you are going down the same road Germany did circa 1933. Please leave our country and spread your propaganda elsewhere!
Posted by Dave Near on Dec 17, 2004 at 10:19 PM Dave Near-
Untill you can conclusively prove the election was stolen we are the minority it’s “considered” our country so enjoy the trip please refer to yourself as Dave Far. I have no tolerance for stupidity
Posted by giantsox on Dec 18, 2004 at 2:50 AM giantsox, I have no tolerance for arrogance and inability to understand the viewpoints of others.
Posted by small, comfortable and well fitting sox on Dec 19, 2004 at 11:55 AM I am more than willing to listen to any comments that are based on fact not merely the implication that fraud has occured, I have no problem with investigation into alleged voter fraud. It’s funny to hear many people not all skip the investigation and go straight to a conclusion and everyone says Bush goes off half cocked. I listen to any viewpoint provided it can be backed up by some form of proof. A tirade comparing the U.S. and us Bush supporters to an indvidual who led ten million people to a tortuous death is a bit of a stretch and you say I’m stupid? Bring some facts and then I’ll be more than happy to listen. Until then I’ll continue to debate informed people like Kuya and Matt Harris.
Posted by giantsox on Dec 19, 2004 at 6:55 PM LOL Well giantsox, when you don’t have access to the voting machines, tabulators, and other election day documents (already destroyed by many Republican controlled counties), it’s pretty hard to have an investigation or aquire proof that you need to show machine tampering or election fraud. Republicans control access to the proof through their voting machine companies and election officials. No paper trail for voting machines, specifically opposed by Republicans, therefore no worries about recounts or evidence of fraud. Nice and easy take over of our electoral process and the country. Plenty of proof already points to fraud, minority voter suppression, and election day intimidation. I’ve already laid out my case Socratically, so there’s no need to repeat it here. We have a pre-planned defense for the Republicans…where’s the proof? Maybe the proof is in the lack of it!
As far as George W. Bush being Hitler-like. There are many comparisons beyond just calculating the number of dead. The Christian right, military industrial complex, financial benefactors, voter fraud and intimidation, fear and insecurity all brought Adolf Hitler to power. Sound familiar? Or maybe we could compare the German Nazi bombing of Guernica Spain to the bombing and destruction of Fallujah, where residents will be forced to wear id tags, be finger-printed and retina scanned, be restricted on movement, and compelled to work under occupied labor camp conditions for a city that won’t submit to an illegal invasion and occupation. See that soldier? See that tank? Now get to work! Gee…Adolf Hitler only needed arm bands with the Star of David.
So as George and Laura toast their re-annointment and Americans celebrate Christmas and watch football games, we’ll be doing God’s work as we honor the Prince of Peace. We’ll be killing men, women, and children to compel upon another nation a democracy like our democracy, one controlled not for the benefit of the people, but so corrupt military defense contractors, oil and gas energy companies, and other Bush supporters can enrich themselves in the great global con-game of the New American Century, exploiting the human and natural resources of the world. No matter how many human beings have to be crushed under tank treads or cities devastated by our 500 pound bombs.
Posted by john on Dec 19, 2004 at 10:29 PM to giantsox,
Facts and common sense support that Bush stole the 2000 election. You honestly believe that Bush wouldn’t try to do the same. Let me give you a fun fact mr. morality (nazi) record turn outs always have been in favor of Democrats. The evangelicals are not as big of a block as you and your loony toon half breeds would contend. Do you think thousands of people would line the streets to re-elect a guy with a track record like Bush’s?
Of course not! Remember this is the same group of people involved with Richard Nixon, Richard Melon Scaife (and you dimwits complain about George Sorros?), William F. Buckley, Rev. Moon,etc. who have for decades schemed and plotted to gain power and will attain it at any cost. Tell me why there isn’t a recount in Ohio until after the certification(and please try to sound convincing because I see through your bullshit). Again sir, you were right. You are the minority. And hell awaits you. Enjoy
Posted by Dave Near on Dec 20, 2004 at 9:20 PM to giantsox,
I still see you haven’t gone to Iraq yet. What is keeping you? Where are your morals? Where is your patriotism? You should be in Iraq fighting for what you believe in. You should be supporting are troops by serving. Hurry along now and go over seas like a good little conservative.
Your buddy,
Dave NearP.s.
I have no tolerance for inbreds or rednecks like you. We the public will not be going away any time soon.
Posted by Dave Near on Dec 20, 2004 at 9:37 PM I posted a message previously, similar to this, that was not posted.
The National Football League uses instant replay to determine possible errors by officials. The idea isn’t to show that referees are dishonest, but to rectify human mistakes. Whether a reversal determines the outcome of the game is irrelevant.
The same standard should be applied to elections. Recounts don’t reveal all errors, because electronic vote flipping (whether deliberate or accidental) can’t be audited. Misallocation of voting machines, penalizing minority districts (whether malignant or benign) disenfranchises an indeterminate number of voters.
Thus, recounts aren’t enough. An “instant replay” of the election should take place. Just as the Ukrainian Supreme Court ordered a new election, so should we have one.
Posted by Robert L. Mills on Dec 22, 2004 at 10:18 AM The US is not a democracy. Election fraud, vote buying,ect. have alway been the norm. It is now obvious to most people in the world that we do not even have basic voting rights. This has become obvious to more and more people over the last few decades. When people know their votes don’t count they stop voting. As i see it, only when millions of people peacefully take to the streets and shut down our corrupt government will we ever have a chance of obtaining democracy in this country. If they can do it in the Ukraine why can’t we do it here?
Posted by Jim on Dec 22, 2004 at 7:30 PM Jim,
Because most people have to be hungry (literally) to be willing to die, and kill, for a political cause. The government will not be shut down peacefully.
Posted by Lefty on Dec 23, 2004 at 12:22 AM The people in the Ukraine who protested and shutdown the corrupt system were neither hungry or expecting to die they simply stood up for their rights. So you believe if millions of peaceful Americans did the same thing our government would shoot us with the whole world watching. Maybe so, but maybe Americans are just a little to paranoid. It has nothing to do with being willing to die, and kill, for a political couse. It is simply about exercising our constitutional rights. Peace!
Posted by Jim on Dec 24, 2004 at 3:19 PM Page 1 of 1 pages -
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