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• Reader Comments (24)

  Page 1 of 1 pages

  once again, it’s time to start hating ourselves.

  Posted by surge on Jan 18, 2005 at 12:32 AM

  All I know is that the sauce needs to be boiled down a little bit.  Just saying.

  Posted by Terrortron, the Destructionator on Jan 18, 2005 at 1:27 AM

  Whenever I see a yellow ribbon stuck to the back of a terrorist supporting SUV, the troops I think of are these. If the germans were wrong to support the nazis, and they were, then certainly we are wrong to support our troops, in Iraq illegally, an invasion justified by our un-elected leadership fraudulently, maintained using methods the US once punished the soldiars of our enemies for using, financed by stealing, not only from our own nation’s present needs and the people who work to support them, but from the next several generations to boot. In Viet Nam the troops were drafted and sent to war against their will. In Iraq the troops are mostly there by choice. I can’t think of any package of benefits a person could recieve that would justify participation in this immoral enterprise.

  Posted by Kenneth D. Brown on Jan 18, 2005 at 6:14 AM

  I feel less and less American by the day.  I can’t believe what is happening to this country, the massive shifting to the right, and the way most American citizens avidly approve of the torture and massive carnage we are doing in Iraq. Look at how the republicans swept the 2004 elections! After all the ugly shit that happened in the first 4 years of Bush, he is handily elected with a record turnout of voters!  Americans love him! They love war and bombing the fuck out of far away countries…get used to it ‘cause there is more coming right down the pipeline my friends. What’s more, demonstrating, writing representatives, Farenheit 9-11 documentaries—none of this changes the course of what is happening: Bush has even admitted he actually likes being hated here and worldwide, and laughs at demonstrators! The liberals and democrats are totally screwed, and locked out of all important government positions from here on out indefinitely. All we are left to do is piss, bitch and moan amongst our own miserable selves. This country has been taken over by the hard right corporate interests and there is sadly no way to stop them. If you are liberal and live in this country, be prepared to read about Bush day after day, year after year—and another Bush will come right after this one—and all the time you’ll read about everything you value and hold dear being trampled and mocked by the corporate republican Bush elite.  In my opinion the battle is lost: leaving the USA is the only solution.  And the sooner the better.

  Posted by Not given because this is a police state on Jan 18, 2005 at 7:19 AM

  “emotional harm”?

  I hope to God you vicious Amerikkkan bastards get wiped out.

  You are going to be remembered as the Nazis of the 21st century.

  And that goes for all you apathetic SOBs who should be fighting this evil like the Ukrainians instead of fucking around on the web.

  Posted by Ziauddin Sardar Mk. 2 on Jan 18, 2005 at 4:09 PM

  It’s not the troops’ fault that they were sent to Iraq.  People who sign up to defend the country have no say in where or why they are deployed.  It is our duty as citizens to question the reasons for our troop deployment.  It is our duty as citizens to take to the streets and protest immoral wars.  It is our duty as citizens to intervene on behalf of our troops and to be their voice.

  Blaming the troops is stupid and counterproductive.

  Posted by Matt Harris on Jan 18, 2005 at 5:56 PM

  It’s not the troops’ fault that they were sent to Iraq.  People who sign up to defend the country have no say in where or why they are deployed.

  This might be true, but “the troops” are still human beings.  If they claim to be fighting for freedom, then they have to accept that freedom carries with it great responsibility.  No oath to any flag or any military force is greater than one’s duty to behave as a civilized human being. 

  Furthermore, if “the troops” find themselves in a situation where they obviously are doing nothing that ‘defends the country,’ then it is up to them as individuals to decide whether or not to participate.  The Germans, under Nazi rule, had roughly three million men at the Eastern Front alone throughout most of WWII.  Were all these men acting without choice?  What about all the SS and ‘special police’ units who slaughtered millions of defenseless civilians?

  “Just following orders” is a defense that no longer flies, except for unrepentant fascists and their apologists.  What’s more, it is hard to claim that those SEALs were unwillingly carrying out unpleasant orders when they appeared to be carrying them out with gusto.  Smiles all around equal moral difficulty?  Really, now.

  We should rightfully heap scorn and vitriol upon the Bush administration for starting an illegal war, but the disgraceful and inhumane conduct that has become synonymous with this war is the responsibility of those who carried it out in violation of the law.  Look at it this way:  how many Jews or Rom did Hitler kill with his own hands?

  Posted by The Church Secretary on Jan 18, 2005 at 6:58 PM

  Military personnel are wanting more coverage of these kinds of events.  The pressure from public exposure gives them protection from being forced to act in similary manners.  These situations are worst than photographed, there are no cameras when extreme tortue methods are utilized.

  Thanks to the AP for being true journalist, there are many military journalist and U.S. civial servants who support there actions.

  Posted by Agent X on Jan 18, 2005 at 7:02 PM

  Let me clarify.  There is no excuse for torture or the behavior depicted in these photos.  My response was to Kenneth Brown’s post, whose premise seemed to be that we shouldn’t support troops because they volunteered rather than being drafted. 

  “It’s not the troops’ fault that they were sent to Iraq.  People who sign up to defend the country have no say in where or why they are deployed.”  I stand by this statement and nothing in your “refutation” addresses the statement you appear to be refuting.

  Posted by Matt Harris on Jan 18, 2005 at 7:20 PM

  There can never be a time when we condone or excuse torture. It is wrong…wrong…wrong!

  What would be the response if the picture was reversed (Iraqis surrounding an American)? Abuse is abuse, torture is torture! Blackening out faces does not change what happened. If you participate in or defend such actions, it debases/dehumanizes you.

  And, to think, the Republicans won re-election on a platform based on ‘moral values’!!

  We need to have (indeed, encourage!) a press that investigates, reports on, and follows up on what is occurring in the world. And, today, that world includes the internet. Bravo to a reporter who did his job! In this era of corporate/right-wing ownership, most reporters have shied away from/become fearful of doing this.

  Posted by Joan on Jan 18, 2005 at 8:31 PM

  There is no excuse for torture or the behavior depicted in these photos.

  “It’s not the troops’ fault that they were sent to Iraq.  People who sign up to defend the country have no say in where or why they are deployed.”

  You say there is no excuse for torture, then you proceed to reiterate a statement that obliquely attempts to excuse those who carried out the torture.  Is that the ‘clarification’ you were seeking to create?  If so, then it is no wonder you couldn’t see the plain logic of my refutation through the fog.

  I’ll try to make this even more direct:  The Navy SEALs in the AP photo are the elite volunteers from among the volunteers.  They are where they are because they really want to be there.  If they were given unlawful or immoral orders, who would question them for refusing those orders? 

  Would you criticize the SEALs for refusing to illegally torture prisoners?  If so, then I think there’s a spot waiting for you over at Little Green Footballs or FreeRepublic.  If not, then what is it that you’re arguing here? 

  The SEALs crossed the line in torturing and abusing their captives. If you have a desire to reserve the lion’s share of the blame for the civilian architects of the illegal war in which the SEALs are carrying out such foul deeds, then I’m with you.  However, trying to muddy the moral waters with vague and contradictory excuses—no matter how willing you are to ‘stand by’ them—will only bring you scorn here in the land of the critical thinkers.

  Posted by The Church Secretary on Jan 18, 2005 at 9:57 PM

  Again, my post spoke to the general contention of an earlier post that our troops in Iraq were not worthy of our support simply because they were part of a volunteer force.  It had nothing to do, obliquely or directly, with excusing those who carried out the torture depicted in these photographs or elsewhere.  In re-reading my post I admit I could have been clearer as to what I was addressing.  I think the SEALs and all the others carrying out any kind of torture are war criminals. I think the war is a fucking sham and will be protesting it on Thursday.  If you find it necessary to somehow make the case that I support torture or am here to muddy moral waters despite my clarification to the contrary, you go girl/boy.  It’s your scorn to waste.  Don’t let me or my words get in the way of your “critical thinking”.  With all due respect, I really don’t need your recommendations as to what websites I should or should not be visiting.

  Posted by Matt Harris on Jan 18, 2005 at 11:44 PM

  Thanks to the Church Secretary for getting the sense of my post, though it was written in a highly emotional state. To Matt, I see your point about soldiers not having a choice about where they are sent, but agree with Church Sec. that how they behave after that is up to them. Also, it’s clear to the US now, as it was to the rest of the world two years ago, that we did not go to Iraq to “defend our country”. Iraq posed no threat to the US. This should be clear to even the lowest ranks of our military. There was no threat to our country, the invasion was illegal, all of our actions stemming therefrom and all the casualties are unjustified and are probably war crimes. No soldier is obligated to follow orders to commit war crimes, or any other type of crime. Of course it’s naive to expect many to desert or mutiny, yet there have been some brave enough to do that. I hope to live long enough to see GWB and his minions hauled before the War Crimes Tribunal, just like Pinochet nearly was, just like Milosovic has been. I hope the European Union fields it’s own military as a counterweight to ours and to head off our imperial march before it destroys this country as it has others in history. The “America” we grew up thinking we were is gone, that much is certain, but whatever righteousness and credibility remains will not survive this government’s conduct of this war, and the likelyhood of it’s starting another in Iran. Rome was not conquered from without, it first decayed from within.

  Posted by Kenneth D. Brown on Jan 19, 2005 at 12:50 AM

  The problem comes down to ignorant minds that are not disposed to investigating the truth or going to the library and checking out a book that has information to help make a good decision.

  Instead we let Fox and the Four Stooge Media tell us how/what/when/why to think.  It is easier, of course.  But enhances our chances of being preyed upon by the corporate wolfpack.

  How much time does the “most powerful Notion on the earth” spend watching reality-TV, the latest T&A jigglefest-search for the “next hot model” who has been “synthesized beyond recognition by clever “nip/tuckers” turning “beautifuls” out by the hundreds.

  We spend BILLIONS on porno (by the way, ALL of the swankiest hotel chains carry it), antacids, headache relief, diets, statins, cosmetics.

  What did Bush tell us to do to assuage our collective victimhood after 9/11?  Watch what you say (about us, particularly) and shop till you drop. 

  The national pastime is denial.  Now here are a few facts that won’t be revealed on the Four Stooge Media:

  1.  Abortions have INCREASED during the Bush Administration from the previous administration.  What does that tell you.  Economics?

  2.  The RED states have higher divorce rates and out-of-wedlock births than the BLUE states.

  3.  The RED states have poorer health status that the BLUE states.

  There should have been no way that the Rapture Right candidates in the RED states to have a chance to be on the ticket, in stead, these fringe denizens got elected. 

  One stellar statement from the new Oklahoma senator said that “lesbianism in the SE high schools in the state is so rampant that the girls don’t go to the bathroom alone”. 

  How stupid do you have to get to fall for this bullshit/propaganda/hot button balderdash?

  Here are a few more truths that have recently been revealed:

  Elvis is really alive, unfortunately he is an alien.

  There are actually six Bushes, this way he can be all things to all people.

  Bush has a hotline to Jesus Christ and he tells us the minute he gets an order from his Lord and Savior. 

  Now what happens if his Lord and Savior decides that you have to sacrifice your mother/wife/sister/father/husband/son/brother/lover because HE has commanded it?  In case you haven’t noticed it is already happening.

  RED stater’s can spend their lives worrying about guns, gays, abortions and taxes but while they are their fleecing by the rapacious, all-consuming corporate wolfpack continues ad infitum.

  Finally, to all of those folks who are concerned about the gay invasion:

  Your house is on fire or your loved one needs emergency treatment are you going to ask whether the aid-giver who arrives on the scene first is gay or not?

  Posted by David T. Gray on Jan 19, 2005 at 4:31 AM

  “The problem comes down to ignorant minds that are not disposed to investigating the truth or going to the library and checking out a book that has information to help make a good decision.”

  Have you no sense of irony man!  You commit the same sin of reflexive tunnel-vision you accuse RED staters of.

  Posted by Terrortron, Still Destructionating on Jan 19, 2005 at 5:19 AM

  There are many Military personnel locked in Military prisons today because of their refusal to follow unlawful Military orders in Iraq and Afghanistan.  They are in a terrible situation when they go against the powers of the Military Chain of Command.

  All Military personel are required to follow the Military code of conduct at all times, under all situations.  They have no Military defense.

  The so called Military leadership will be held accountable, eventually, but not soon enough in my opinion. 

  In time, an Article of Treason will be presented before the U.S. Congress against President George W. Bush and his administration.  Only then will there be a just resolution to these crimes.

  
  AX
  Support the Troops, Defend the Truth

  Posted by Agent X on Jan 19, 2005 at 9:53 AM

  “Support the troops,” at first sight seems harmless and even humane. But it’s an unthinking response to the wrong question. Break it down and you’ll find that you cannot support the troops—their decision to join as individuals, their roles as a force—without also supporting the policies of the Administration. The two are inseparable. On this matter and many others, I would recommend reading Robert Jensen’s excellent, provocative and humane book, Citizens of the Empire, which spends some time looking at the double standards frequently applied to highly polarizing debates like these.

  Posted by Bill DiNome on Jan 19, 2005 at 4:51 PM

  I would change the support too the following:

  
  “Support the troops who serve America with HONOR”

  The catch all “Support The Troops” statment is indeed too general and insincere.

  
  AX
  Support the troops who serve America with HONOR

  Posted by Agent X on Jan 19, 2005 at 5:23 PM

  I do not “support the troops” and am quite sick of hearing that little ditty. Here you have a military that tortures, continues to torture, and are quite proud of themselves. Remember this was the guys wife who posted these photos like it was something to laugh at or be proud of.

    And after the video game called “the Destruction of Fallujah” played out at the cost of thousands of lives and hundreds of thousands of homeless happened last year, the troops can go “F” themselves.
  To tell you the truth, I hope some country with a decent military comes to the aid of Iraq and puts some hurt on these arrogant idiots.

  Posted by Mondo on Jan 20, 2005 at 12:48 AM

  Whew folks, what a bunch of jumbled arguments. They say much the same thing, but from different directions. And the one theme running through all of them was fear.
  Best get used to FEAR, eh?
  1)There will never be another election in this country. Total control was shown over this election, and as long as the votes are counted by companies deeply indebted to one party, that’s it. Bush didn’t win this time any more than he was elected in 2000. Who controls the counting of the votes wins. Period.
  2)There is no democratic party anymore. Not really. They will never get elected to any high office again unless #1 somehow changes. Expect them to lose badly in the ‘06 midterm elections just like ‘02. It’s over.
  3)A soldier swears an oath when they become military that requires them to follow and uphold laws and the Constitution. But not if you want a career in the military. And honestly, living on the streets is getting downright ugly in this country. Crap jobs, the minimum wage joke jobs, are getting harder to come by. What economic bracket do most of our trained killers come from? What education levels? Remember from Nam the saying that there isn’t anything more dangerouse that a scared 19 year old full of pumped-up hatred with an M-16 and a free-fire zone? So you kill some people in some stinking country you hate anyway? They’re bad and your good. God is on your side, right?
  4)Support the troops? Not if they’ve broken the oath they took in the first place. Quit mincing words. Every soldier over there has broken that oath and is now a war criminal. The are not upholding our laws. Period. What, they chicken to go to prison and get raped for a few years over their convictions? Too bad.
  5)We are a police state. It’s going to get worse. Read the early ‘30’s Germany history, the laws made, the secrecy, and the nationalistic rhetoric spewed out over the newpapers & radios. Read the christian ethics spouted by policiticans & corportate businessmen. It’s the same “with us or against us” mentality that got people beaten in the streets by mobs of “good” people, houses and businesses burned down. People disappearing. It starts slow, bad mouth the people who question anything in the media, put labels on them like “conspiracy nut” or “liberal” etc. Maybe “key” their car if you don’t like the bumper sticker, or a rock through a window some night of a house with an outspoken neighbor who’s not “with us.” Yep, be scared because god is on the side of the people who come after you. They KNOW it, so what you think doesn’t matter. You are going to hell. They will help you.
  6)So many conservative governments have historically gone this route that it should be expected. Stalin, Hitler, Franco, Mussolini, Batista, Noreiga, Duvalier, Pinochet, Saddam, Shah of Iran, the list goes on and on. Conservative states seem to turn into police states. The most democratic countries in the western hemisphere are in South America now.
  7)What makes this worse that the usual run of the mill conservative police state is the use of religion running throughout. History shows the WORST times, the most bloody and viscious and murderous and ignorant were dominated by one religion (just about all feudal countries were co-governed by the church & king). Christianity has a wonderfully bloody history, but so do the Incas and Egyptians and the Sumerians etc. Religion blinds people, and fetters their minds. Doesn’t matter what kind, because it’s all about power over others. Power + religion + nationalism = death on a tremendous scale. Over and over and over.
  Suicidal species, aren’t we?

  Posted by historyreader on Jan 20, 2005 at 9:09 AM

  hey history reader you nailed it on the head. What’s sad is that people won’t take notice to what’s going on, just like the 60’s with vietnam. Maybe we will get some good rock and roll songs from all of this. The 60’s produced some of the best music ever.

  Posted by brian on Jan 26, 2005 at 6:34 PM

  Yeah, don’t ya just love being an educated pessimist and most of the time finding out you were right….but too powerless and too late to change the direction?
  Good music? Absolutely! My kids turned me on to Godsmack, and I turned them on to John Kay’s “Heretics & Privateers” cd. Some very good music out there already, and is infiltrating many different genres of music (I’m a harmonica/conga percussionist and the blues is becoming full of protest again). Music made a huge difference in the 60’s-70’s because it got the word out where the media (then and now) refused to inform. Music has always been about change and justice. At least the thinking music has.

  Posted by historyreader on Jan 26, 2005 at 7:51 PM

  Hey Terrortron, you are going to have to do better than that.  I wasn’t accusing RED-staters of anything I was giving some facts in RED & BLUE without the WHITE. 

  Separate the irony from the stupidity/shit happens/so what? and bake THAT cake.  Then go out and feed some folks, starvation is all around us.

  Please, cure my t.v.

  Posted by David T. Gray on Jan 29, 2005 at 6:23 AM

  “I hope some country with a decent military comes to the aid of Iraq and puts some hurt on these arrogant idiots.”

  I think you’ve stumbled upon the nature of the sick psychic energy behind our nation’s foreign policy, Mondo.  The lunatics and demons who are running our country aren’t much worse than their predecessors; the major difference is that now there is no potent, world-reaching military force to oppose them. 

  Between WWII and the collapse of the USSR, the U.S. was forced to limit it’s imperial outreach—with a few notable exceptions—to proxy wars and giving aid to sympathetic dictators.  Now that there is no one to oppose them, and no major power for beleaguered victim states to turn to for military and diplomatic muscle, the U.S. is limited only by the easily loosened constraints of budgetary concerns and domestic public opinion.

  Another way of looking at this:  those who worship a kaleidoscopic memory of Ronald Reagan will tell you that the Cold War was a struggle between good (us) and evil (them).  I submit that it was more a struggle between neocolonial greed (ours) and a hyper-reptilian urge for self-preservation (theirs).  Any ideology or propaganda that has worked it’s way into our historical narrative should be taken with that grain of salt.

  Currently, we’ve devolved to a brutally clumsy amalgamation of the Monroe Doctrine and manifest destiny.  We use our superior force and economic leverage to take what we want, and we use our corporate mass media myth-making machine to convince ourselves of the righteousness of our actions.  (Have you seen CNN’s coverage of the impending ‘election’ in Iraq?  They have really gotten high on their own supply over there.  Apparently “skepticism” has gone the way of “irony.”)

  The soldiers in the field, at least those who still ‘believe’ in the righteousness of the Iraq war, are no different from their neocon masters or the duped, jingoistic segments of the U.S. electorate; they are just the ones doing the dirty work.

  Posted by The Church Secretary on Jan 29, 2005 at 1:24 PM

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