A Corrupted Election

Here’s a peer reviewed book proving Bush stole the 2000 election for you too: http://www.worldcatlibraries.org/wcpa/ow/a72369d54fc8077ca19afeb4da09e526.html

I’d honestly like to know what people think of what I have to say.  Firstly, I’m definitely of the opinion that the election was stolen, that our democracy exists only as a fantasy, that this administration is evil, etc., so you know where I come from.  The problem I’ve encountered are two-fold:

1. What can be done about it?
2. Trying to convert the other side to your point of view is a waste of time.

For me, and it might seem silly to some, the only reasonable thing I can do to “do something about it” is to pray - to pray for the war and madness to stop, to pray that we get a government that actually wants to help people and problems at home and in the world.  Talking about it with people on the other side of the fence has basically gotten me a whole lot of nothing.  Maybe it’s the undecideds and open minded and fence sitters we need to go after, because honestly, the possibility of me getting someone that agrees with the right wing conservative christian republican point of view on things to suddenly see the Light and change their point of view is exactly the same possibility of one of them convincing me that war is justified or that homosexuality is wrong - i.e., it’s NOT going to happen. I guess that putting out stories like this one are important, but then again, they always (because of our lovely media) end up showing up in the alternative press, and the people who read the alternative press either do because they know the regular press isn’t telling the truth, or they’re trying to actively refute the alternative press and get people to buy into all the b.s.  While noble, and I’m sure necessary, it seems to accomplish little.  So, I’m still left with:

1. What can be done about it?
2. Trying to convert the other side to your point of view is a waste of time.

I do believe the truth will come out because I have an unreasonable belief and faith in the good side of the force (if you will), but how and when this will happen I know not.  All I personally can do at the moment is pray and trust that God (or whatever you want to call it in whatever way you want to believe in it) will deliver…

Sorry, I asked for one.

You blew it on the Conyers Report.

I’ve got to leave now to go meet some Repugs so we can snicker and clasp our hands - while grinning in an evil fashion - over the election results.

(Actually i’m going to jam out with my bohemian friends playing some Gov’t Mule & Clapton covers)

It all makes sense now!

what’s the line from the Simpsons go to London?

“there’s Eric Clapton, the greatest thief of American Black music ever”

or something to that effect

;)

Spool:

Perhaps you know nothing about the courts.  I have been a trial attorney for 27 years and I have some idea of what courts can do and what they can’t.

If we had a computer generated election coup (I use the word coup because fraud is something the courts can handle on a small scale) the courts are as helpless at solving this problem as they would be if the tanks rolled in and the head of the military took over the government.

To begin with, our electoral college makes every state’s legal system have to deal with it’s own situation.  This is a national nightmare for the courts.  They are incapable of dealing with this.

Then there is pretrial discovery, the rules of which make it very difficult to find out what one side did if they do not want you to know.  They can play hide the ball for years.

Going through the court mazes, if you could find out what happened, two elections might have come and gone since the court cases began.

On the other hand, perhaps you do know that the courts could never deal with this situation and you just throw out the “go to court” argument because you know the courts are helpless.

So telling someone to prove this in court is pointless.  You might as well just say “get over it.”

If you want us “to get over it” get some really good conservative statisticians to review Mitofsky’s report and have them come up with some really compelling reasons that the exit polls were wrong. 

Until then, I will believe that the the exit polls were far more accurate than the actual tabulation. In the same way, I believe (conservatives too I might add) that we do a horrible job of headcount in the census and that a statistical analysis of the population would arrive at a much more accurate count of the population.

Kerry won the e;ection. period

Steve Freeman and Josh Mitteldorf have raised some important issues. However, there is a variable which could help account for the discrepancy between the exit polls and the election results.

i.e. That a proportion of voters who voted for Bush did not respond honestly to the exit polls because they felt vaguely guilty. That’s not a crazy suggestion if one considers the way that the right-wing media played up the fears of “terrorism”. Someone could find Bush’s agenda morally objectionable but nevertheless feel safer (however naively)with a continuity of his presidency than with a new president with more ambiguous credentials.

I don’t know if that’s true, but it doesn’t need a conspiracy theory…

Kurtis wrote:
“Ok. I’ve read it (for the 2nd time).

Would you consider that “an article in a credible peer reviewed journal supporting your supposition that the election was stolen.” ?

I don’t.

I’d rate it as a collection of every election gripe Conyers & company could solicit.

“

I consider the over 100 page report submitted by a member of the house of representitives and puting his reputation on the line credible and worthy of your review.
http://www.flcv.com/fraudpat.html

<sigh>  All this shouting across a great divide, where is it getting us?

What if we look at this not as a partisan issue, but a people issue?  What if we simply look at it as a huge disagreement?  Those of you out there trying to convince the other side, here’s something to try.  Stop arguing your case, and try arguing the opponents’.  Really try.  Do your research.  Talk to people about their ideas and feelings.  Put as much passion into it as you put into expressing your own thoughts.  Maybe if we do this, we will begin to understand each other and maybe, although it makes me breathless to think it, find common ground.  Maybe at least we will find a common language, a way to talk to and listen to each other.  Maybe then we can make progress as a nation. 

There is common ground, I’m sure of it.  For example, I don’t think any of us wants to believe we are being screwed by our government.  We just have different ways of going about protecting ourselves. 

Brenda, you are obviously an intelligent and thoughtful person.  Will you do this?  Claire, obviously a prodigious researcher.  Will you do this?  Not to single these two out, will any of you do this?

I find that in any situation, each person has their version of events.  They assemble their facts and construct their arguments with utter confidence each in their own veracity.  The truth, however, always turns out to be somewhere in the middle.

So why didn’t Americans go on a General Strike and demand a recount like they did in the Ukraine?  Its obvious that bush stole the election.  A third of your voters didn’t even turn up to vote.  In Australia it is illegal not to vote.  Elections take place on a Saturday so that people can go and vote with minimal impact on employers, who can get into alot of trouble if they even attempt to impeed you from going to the polling booth.

So why the complacency of sitting at home?  Ukranians travelled from all around their country and protested.  They refused to move until the election was redone.  Why didn’t you guys do that?  That’s how they got away with it.  I have read several blogs moaning about how the Republicans had election commissioners and supreme court judges all in place to corrupt the outcome, yet the only thing that has been done properly is a couple of court challenges.  Why play poker with a stacked deck?

Maybe a General strike sounds to much like Communism.  But then rigged elections sounds too much like Stalinism.

So why didn’t Americans go on a General Strike and demand a recount like they did in the Ukraine?  Its obvious that bush stole the election.  A third of your voters didn’t even turn up to vote.  In Australia it is illegal not to vote.  Elections take place on a Saturday so that people can go and vote with minimal impact on employers, who can get into alot of trouble if they even attempt to impeed you from going to the polling booth.

So why the complacency of sitting at home?  Ukranians travelled from all around their country and protested.  They refused to move until the election was redone.  Why didn’t you guys do that?  That’s how they got away with it.  I have read several blogs moaning about how the Republicans had election commissioners and supreme court judges all in place to corrupt the outcome, yet the only thing that has been done properly is a couple of court challenges.  Why play poker with a stacked deck?

Maybe a General strike sounds to much like Communism.  But then rigged elections sounds too much like Stalinism.

The difference between the Ukraine and the US is not about rigging the elections.  The difference is what YOU the people did about it.  While you are not making your presence felt and sit at home, the propaganda news networks, who have considerable presence, can destroy your case with lies.

In the Ukraine the protestors stopped the country and made sure the whole world was watching.  In the US . . .

Byronie:

We haven’t had a strike here or public protest of any significance since the sixties.

Then we had a media who let us know how bad Vietnam was.  That kind of media is long gone.

Most people know absoultely nothing of the exit polls or what they mean.  They were produced and paid for by our media and our own media won’t tell us what they mean.

Of course, we can thank the Australians for giving us Murdoch and Fox News.  Thanks a lot.

Saying you don’t have a decent media left anymore is just an excuse.  The Ukranians don’t either, but the international agencies were there to alert the rest of the world.

Murdoch is now a US citizen, so although we created the beast (and suffer in our media for it) the US allowed him to get alot worse.  Don’t worry, we have a couple of other dodgy media moguls that we wouldn’t mind of-loading too (only kidding!  I have a lot of respect of americans in many ways).

seriously though -
There seems to be a lot of ‘what’s the point in doing anything’ arguments going around.  which seems to me to be an own-goal situation.  self-defeatism.

On another note, there’s definately a feeling (I believe) in the air, kind of like 1966 in Europe and America or 1920 in Ireland, that we are about to experience a big shift in thinking and the balance of power.  Its time for it anyway.

I don’t know the answers, and I hope I’m not coming across as offensive (not my intent at any rate).

still has faith in humankind?

You bet. People on the right - please tell me your theory on this issue and I will research best I can to prove you right, so long as we have a similar effort from someone over there. This SHOULD be a non-partisan issue and I am more than willing to work with you.

Brenda, Brenda, Brenda,

As a lawyer, I can tell you that what happened in Florida is not what you think.

The real problem in Florida was the election law that the state legislature created with no consideration whatsoever for a national election.

Unfortunately, this is the state of affairs in nearly every state as all state election laws are designed for state elections and not national ones.  The timetables in state election laws presume that there are many months to recount and sue over a questionable election.

This does not jibe with what the national election requires.

The Florida Supreme Court, in order to attempt to get some kind of recount that made some sense given the national election timetables, essentially crafted its own election law.

Most legal scholars thought that under the circumstances they did a good job.  The Republicans argued that this was ex post facto.

At the Supreme Court, realizing that the ex post facto argument would not fly, they shifted their argument to equal protection.  The Supreme Court bought it, but in an opinion that was highly criticised by constitutional scholars.

But by then, it didn’t matter because the clock had run out.

And this is precisely what is wrong with anyone who says that the Democrats should have sued in Ohio.  The clock will always run out before the legal system has any opportunity to dequately remedy the situation.

George Bush is, as always, stiil hounded by unfavorable ratings. Has anyone noticed this? How could anyone who was really reelected by the American people, always, and consistently, receive such poor ratings? He had bad ratings before the election, and he still has bad ratings now! Was the Iraqi elections George Bush’s one great day.. for favorable ratings? These ratings only further prove that George Bush didn’t win the 2004 Election. He won the 2004 Election, just the same way he won the 2000 Election..He just plain STOLE THEM! Anyone who still thinks that he won either election, after all of the proof which has been provided showing otherwise, is either a coward, or an idiot..or both.

SOUR GRAPES? “What a joke!” Bush supporters will find out what SOUR GRAPES really are”..

“when George Bush is finally impeached!”

A VERY informative flash on what happened in Florida and the history behind it:

http://bushflash.com/gta.html

HAIL TO THE THIEF!
(independant hiphop track responding to election fraud)

http://www.mossyrecords.cjb.net

<<These ratings only further prove that George Bush didn’t win the 2004 Election. He won the 2004 Election, just the same way he won the 2000 Election..He just plain STOLE THEM! Anyone who still thinks that he won either election, after all of the proof which has been provided showing otherwise, is either a coward, or an idiot..or both.>>

J.C., you said a mouthful of TRUTH here brother!

The secret to a big lie is to make it so big, so audacious, that no one dares believe it because it would rock the stable foundations of their world too much. 

This country was specifically based on free elections, a peaceful, powerful revolution every four years.  By directly subverting this process on a massive scale at levels difficult for most ordinary people to imagine, let alone understand, the Republican elite has pulled off the biggest power grab in US history.

It is not, however, the biggest power grab in world history.  It follows the textbook.  Machiavelli’s the Prince.  Sun Tzu’s the Art of War.  Adolf Hitler’s Mein Kampf.  George Orwell’s 1984.

Control the press.  Do not ever respond to accusations with facts.  Simply deny, and repeat the same lies over and over until enough people have heard them enough times to believe them.  Stare down your opponents and attack them personally if they dare to attack your policies.  Find a scapegoat and build up hate against them in the larger populace.  Start a war.  Start another war. 

Stealing the elections is only a minor part of the larger plan.  I don’t know if it will be the next election, or the one after that, but if this continues ...(to quote a great author who predicted over 50 years ago that the US would devolve into a Military Theocracy by 2010) I wouldn’t be surprised if a Presidential election were suspended due to national emergency.  Indefinitely. 

I really, truly hope that I am merely paranoid, not paranoid and right.  Unfortunately, I have studied enough history to be fairly confident that I am right.

Mr. Kurtis. He’s (brain) dead.

Did anyone read my earlier post?  I thought I was asking some good thought provoking questions.  Would anyone care to comment???

I find it funny that people say Bush should have no problems with full investigation into the election if he didn’t do anything wrong.  Isn’t that the same argument that Republicans use to to defend the Patriot Act?

I’ll let that sink in for a second.

Just for fun, does anyone want to start listing the logical fallicies in Kurtis’s and Brenda’s and their ilk’s arguments?

so far, without digging too deep, I have found ad hominem attacks, arguments from consequences, argument from accident *and* converse accident (failing to generalize and overgeneralizing), begging the question, and ...well, I’ll let the rest of you good people start adding your own fallacies to the list

Byronie:

WE don’t have international agencies either.  We wouldn’t even let UN observers in to monitor our elections.

What we need is the equivalent of Radio Free Europe.  We need a Radio Free America.  We need a European Newsgroup (one not controlled giant by European corportions) broadcasting from Canada all the way to the Rio Grande.

Unless you were here and heard and read our media, you cannot comprehend how isolated we are in what we hear and see.  Americans, by and large, are not readers and what they do read is mostly created here.

The reason we don’t take to the streets is because most of us are blissfully ignorant.  See Kurtis for example.

<<Our election process needs a major overhaul and the sooner the better.  No other country would put up with questionable machine tampering, no paper trail, and optical scanners that can be manipulated. The masses have been lured into complacency.  WAKE UP!!!  Democracy is in a coma in America!>>

Suki, our democracy has been hijacked by the neocons and theocratic “right” into the toilet!

<<<<<Must be nice to be a Right Winger these days - WMD’s in Iraq, Saddam / Al Qaeda collaboration, we’d be greeted as liberators, Iraq would be a cakewalk, Social Security is going bankrupt, deficits don’t matter, tax cuts favoring the wealthy will spur the economy, GeeDubya inherited a recession, Liberals were the cause of 9-11, gays getting married is the end of civilization as we know it - you don’t need to think. Simply check your brain in at the church and have faith that everything is as Fox Jazeera and the EIB report.>>>>

Wingnuts are totally despicable and unable to think as normal human beings.  The rapture is coming, as well as the cleansing of the environment and replenishment of all the natural resources the corporations have depleted.

One final comment before I head off to bed for the night. 

One thing about Kurtis’ and Brenda’s and the rest of the people who have been criticizing this effort worries me more than any other.  Our country’s foundation is fair, transparent, free elections. 

If my candidate’s legitimacy were being questioned, I would be bending over backwards to ensure that I could investigate as thoroughly and from every angle, as possible, to determine the truth.  I would do this for two reasons:  I would want to exonerate my candidate, if he were innocent, and I would want to protect and preserve my country, if he were guilty.

Why then are these self-styled patriots screaming and using ad hominem attacks to silence the debate? Especially since this debate has a substantial body of statistical evidence to support or suggest (depending on your bias) the idea the the President of the United States stole the election.  If I were a Republican supporter, I would be outraged and dismayed that not only had my candidate lied to the opposition, but he had lied to his supporters as well, and cheated and subverted the laws of the country he is sworn to lead in this most fundamental way.

It is in the interest of all US citizens, no matter what their ideological leanings, to get to the bottom of any election fraud, from dog catcher all the way up to and including President.  Misquoting a quote quoted earlier in this forum (*grin*), “Evil gets its way only when good people do nothing”.  Good people need to disseminate this information as widely as possible, no matter what their political leanings in the name of truth, and literally, in the defense of our Republic.

I tuned into the first one on the list Claire, but I will get to the resr of them soon.  Thanks for sharing.

Byronie,
There is no excuse as to why we didn’t take to the streets to protest the election fraud, but here are some reasons:

1) This Country is HUGE, Ukraine is about the size of Texas.  The logistics of storming Washington DC would not be that easy to overcome. I live 1000 miles away from Washington DC.  Most Americans can not get the time off from work or can’t afford the expense of traveling there.

2) Only about 30% or less of Kerry voters believe the election was stolen.  Most Americans are sound asleep and have no idea what is going on in this Country.  88 million eligible voters did not vote, they just don’t care.

3) The media here might as well be government run, with the exception of Keith Olbermann on MSNBC, not one station carried the story of voter irregularities.

I don’t know what it will take for the American people to wake up, I have tried to wake up some members of my own family and I have not had much luck.

I would love to see that 30% of Kerry voters storm Washington, that is about 18 million people!!  The Secret Service would be scurrying ole Georgie to the basement of the White House in a hurry if that amount of people converged on Washington.  Maybe then the media would be forced to cover the story, but then again the way this country has been lately, it could end up like Tianamin Square.

Thank you for laying out this information in such a detailed and articulate manner. Upon reading this latest report after following all these reports that have been circulating about the election(s), from a sort of amateur John Q. Citizen political watcher viewpoint, it seems clear to me that there were a great quantity of “actions” that took place. These actions appear to me to be not so much coordinated (but who knows as of yet?) as they appear to be inspired on a national level.

A lot of actions took place that affected our nation’s arguably most prized possession - the Democratic Process. This kind of action required courage, a sense of purpose, and a belief in what was being undertaken (the ends justifying the means), and most tragically, the certainty that these illegal actions would only be confronted by words - complaints, expressed outrage, calls for investigation, and other logical arguments. And that these words would easily be countered by angry words designed to dismiss, invalidate and discredit these words, and their authors, questioning the validity of our most prized possession - our Democratic Process.

It is clear to me that these “men of action” are certain that there will be no action beyond blogs, or words. I hope that they are wrong.

In my humble and uninformed opinion, only action, perhaps inspired by the words preceding them, will bring the truth to light, one candle at a time so to speak. It will not take many candles to burn this House of Cards that serves to hide this “Operation Dubya.”

It would be interesting if these words of concern over our Democratic Process were aimed to inspire actions to reveal wrong doings in individual preceincts, leak internal memos, inviting people to come out with what they know, posting any evidence that they may be able to accumulate, and other actions of that nature.

Remember that every second term President has suffered some kind of scandal. I believe that this election has the potential to be the mother of all scandals for this administration. But that would require the same kind of national level of action that has caused concern about the election(s) results. It will be interesting when words rise to the next level: ACTION. Then the media will find itself economically required to report these action/findings.

Good Luck Jim… (play theme music from Mission: Impossible)

TruthIsAll (1000+ posts)    Thu Feb-17-05 04:16 AM
Original message
So all those new, young, single, liberal women voted for Bush?
Edited on Thu Feb-17-05 04:34 AM by TruthIsAll
The National Exit Poll had Kerry winning the bulk of the 21
million new voters by a 3-2 margin. As a result, he won the
election by 50.8-48.2%.

But Edison/Mitofsky claim that Bush voters were reluctant to
tell exit pollsters who the voted for. Apparently, E/M never
read their own report; the data says just the opposite: Bush
voters in heavy GOP precincts were more apt to speak to the
pollsters. If so, Kerry’s margin was even bigger than 2.6%.

And that’s not even considering all those Democrats who were
disenfranchised or stood on line but never got a chance to
vote.

Inquiring minds: So where did Bush get his 12 million new
voters from, as compared to 2000? 

(Votes in thousands)

20002004Pct2000Pct2000Pct2004Pct 2004 Pct   2004Chg
StateVotesVotesChgBushVoteGoreVoteBushVoteKerryVoteBushKerry
Total10433912217117.1P,45647.87Q,00048.38b,02950.77Y,02648.31%2.90%-0.07%

HI36542917.6837.79 556.28445.26#254.01%7.47%-2.28%
RI4054367.6132.231.59938.77&059.57%6.54%-2.02%
NJ3,1683,61014.0%1,28440.54%1,78956.47%1,66846.21%1,91152.95%5.66%-3.52%
AL1,6521,88313.9�156.97i341.92%1,17662.49i436.86%5.52%-5.06%
TN2,0632,43718.1%1,06251.46�247.58%1,38456.80%1,03642.53%5.33%-5.05%

CT1,4421,5799.5V138.92�656.61i443.94�754.31%5.02%-2.30%
NY6,7557,3899.4%2,40335.58%4,10860.81%2,96340.10%4,31458.39%4.52%-2.42%
OK1,2191,46420.1t461.08G438.92�065.57P434.43%4.49%-4.49%
MA2,6692,9058.9�932.92%1,61660.58%1,07436.97%1,80462.09%4.05%1.51%
WV64375617.63652.36)545.98B456.062743.20%3.71%-2.78%

DE32637515.2742.16055.29245.77 053.36%3.61%-1.93%
LA1,7411,93911.4�853.30y245.52%1,10256.85�042.31%3.54%-3.21%
UT75492722.9Q568.32 326.93f471.64$126.03%3.32%-0.90%
AZ1,5132,01333.1x251.67h545.31%1,10454.87�444.40%3.19%-0.91%
KS1,0581,18812.3b258.849937.75s662.00C536.62%3.17%-1.13%

NE69077712.6C462.86#233.58Q365.98%432.72%3.12%-0.86%
FL5,9237,60428.4%2,91349.18%2,91249.17%3,96552.14%3,58447.13%2.96%-2.04%
KY1,5351,79617.0�256.86c941.63%1,06959.55q339.69%2.69%-1.95%
MD2,0132,38418.4�440.42%1,14656.91%1,02542.98%1,33455.97%2.56%-0.94%
IN2,1662,46813.9%1,24657.51�241.64%1,47959.95�939.26%2.44%-2.37%

MO2,3402,73116.7%1,19050.86%1,11147.49%1,45653.30%1,25946.10%2.44%-1.39%
CA10,84712,39214.2%4,56742.11%5,86154.03%5,51044.46%6,74554.43%2.36%0.40%
GA2,5493,29929.4%1,42055.69%1,11643.78%1,91458.03%1,36641.41%2.34%-2.37%
AR9091,05616.1G352.02B346.50W354.26F944.40%2.24%-2.10%
NM59475627.2(648.18(748.247749.847149.05%1.66%0.80%

PA4,8705,76618.4%2,28146.84%2,48651.04%2,79448.46%2,93850.96%1.62%-0.08%
IL4,7125,27511.9%2,01942.86%2,58954.94%2,34644.46%2,89254.82%1.61%-0.12%
MN2,4052,82317.4%1,11046.15%1,16848.58%1,34747.71%1,44551.20%1.57%2.61%
TX6,3717,41016.3%3,80059.64%2,43438.20%4,52761.09%2,83338.23%1.45%0.03%
MI4,2084,83815.0%1,95346.42%2,17051.58%2,31447.83%2,47951.25%1.41%-0.34%

WI2,5742,99316.3%1,23748.06%1,24348.28%1,47849.38%1,49049.76%1.32%1.48%
IA1,3021,50515.6c448.71c949.03u249.96t249.29%1.24%0.26%
MS9861,13815.5W358.12@541.05g359.10E740.13%0.97%-0.92%
VA2,7143,19317.6%1,43752.96%1,21744.85%1,71753.77%1,45545.56%0.81%0.71%
SC1,3721,61617.8x657.30V641.23�858.06f240.96%0.76%-0.27%

WA2,4602,85716.2%1,10945.08%1,24850.73%1,30545.67%1,51052.86%0.59%2.13%
AK27531213.3760.84y28.71161.22135.61%0.38%6.89%
DC20122713.29.01285.72!9.37 389.43%0.36%3.72%
ND28031311.9562.53�34.08762.86135.50%0.33%1.42%
OH4,6555,62520.8%2,35150.51%2,18646.96%2,86050.84%2,74148.73%0.33%1.77%

NH56267620.3'448.67&647.383148.994150.35%0.32%2.97%
OR1,5111,82820.9q447.22r047.66�747.42�351.60%0.21%3.94%
CO1,7132,12824.2�451.58s843.09%1,10151.76%1,00247.08%0.18%4.00%
NV59782638.40250.55(046.93A950.709748.09%0.14%1.16%
ME64474115.1(744.532049.713044.589753.57%0.05%3.87%

NC2,8893,50121.2%1,63156.46%1,25843.54%1,96156.02%1,52643.59%-0.44%0.05%
WY21324314.0869.44`28.39869.00q29.13%-0.44%0.74%
ID48859822.73769.06928.42@968.39130.26%-0.67%1.85%
MT40245012.1$059.78734.13&659.07438.57%-0.72%4.43%
SD31038825.4161.61938.39#359.91938.44%-1.70%0.06%

VT2893117.5041.42951.53138.98459.22%-2.44%7.68%

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&addr ress=203x328578

This is (mostly) very thought provoking and painstakingly researched..

I must link it on my blog..

Well done :)

http://scaredinamerica.blogspot.com/

The arguments that Republicans have is that we shouldn’t doubt nor criticize the numbers that are obviously rigged. Thus they Win by criminal intent. But Republicans can’t think nor give a reasonable argument…. they only call their opponents names…. they refuse to see that maybe they might be wrong… whereas “liberals” are always self critical and capable of nuance and understanding that they aren’t going to always win nor be ‘right’. It’s purely REASON vs. Arrogance.

The same thing was done with Cost of Living Index by the Reagan Administration when they stopped counting the rising cost of rents (as it was ‘too hard’ to account for regional disparities…. they said) Thus, the Cost of Living Index doesn’t show the true nature of people’s cost of living going up and up.. while wages remain stagnant. Obviously the Unemployment Count is rigged too…as only those collecting unemployment benefits are counted….. (probably only a minority of the underemployed..) Republicans use Enron Accounting methods in all their dealings.. which is why they are lazy and corrupt…who despise people who actually work for a living.. (most Repugs I meet seem to be ‘salesmen’.)  Republicans are people who win elections by trading with the enemy as Bush/Regain did with trading ARMs to Iran for Hostages in order to depose Jimmy Carter (no accident that the Iranians released hostages when Reagan was installed in the Presidency).

I am a relatively young, new, single, liberal woman voter. I live in a “blue” state. I had planned to vote Green, but in the end I voted for Kerry. He won me over with the debates. I felt voting for Kerry was needed to get Bush out of the White House. What is interesting is that I did not feel comfortable telling people I voted for Kerry. I only told a few close friends. I don’t buy the theory that people in exactly the same category as I am, hurried to vote for Bush or to talk to pollsters about voting for Kerry.

Lest anyone be confused in last post of mine…Iran/hostages.. is the prior deal that Reagan’s operatives (read Bush 1 et al) just happened to acquire Iranian assistance in removing the embarrassing Presidency of J.Carter… who might have lost the election anyway due to the economy being sour ... but the constant fact that the Iranians were snubbing the USA with those hostages.. and that military attempts may have been thwarted by ‘sabotage’... helicoptors crashing in the desert so forth… indicates the October surprise that never happened…

Journalist Sick was often dismissed…(I vaguely remember him as being labeled a Christian Leftist.. some would say an oxymoron in itself) but open deliberations into possible Republican involvement w/ Iranian militants has never been pursued. And Democrat senators probably have their hands dirty too (so they were constrained in investigating.)... but the fact that Oliver North was also involved in the possible rescue of hostages…makes one pause.

After all why were the Watergate Burglers attacking the McGovern campaign?.. can Republicans even win a landslide w/o criminal conspiracies?

the Wellstone aircrash has never been conclusively proven to be an accident either.. btw.

also Republican Brenda in prior posts… really using someone as unscruplous as Dick Morris.. kind of puts your argument to rest (hey, I never said clinton was scruplous….either spelling?) Interesting only left wing websites allow both sides to debate.. try debating on a right wing site..? impossible as getting on Rush Limbaugh’s show

e.g.. http://wjcohen.home.mindspring.com/otherclips/sick.htm

Somebody mentioned Bush’s approval ratings. Here’s an interesting article:

http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/20/2005/1156

Yesterday’s Gallup Poll Showing Bush Approval At 57% Had 9% More Republicans Than Democrats
by Steve Soto
February 12, 2005

I don’t know if this election was stolen and I don’t know if the 2000 election was stolen.  As a committed Democrat let me say that I haven’t seen enough proof for me to demand that criminal charges be brought against anyone.  However, I am concerned that the politics that divide this country has made it so that people are afraid of investigating the “anomalies” formally.  If Bush won this election fairly, I would think that the whole country would insist on an investigation.  The Republicans would be able to prove that Democrats are “cry-babies” and the Democrats would get the investigation they’ve been asking for.  Who would be the loser if an investigation was conducted?  Let us all (Democrats and Republicans) demand an investigation so that we can move past this and have reprisentative government we all can acknowledge.

p.s.  For those of you who like to look at the spelling so that you will have a reason to make a snide remark instead of responding to the issue, PLEASE STAY FOCUSED. 

BTW - I intentionally spelled “representative” incorrectly so you would know if you fall into the above category.

Question: why does the USA vote on a weekday? I guess it is somewhere in the constitution or so, but it is unfair.

A rich man can vote on a workday without a problem. A middle-class man can vote on a workday, but may face some problems with his employer and may lose some payment. A poor man may not be able to vote on a workday at all, fearing to loose his job or the money he needs to pay his rent.

After the 2004 election poor people will stay away from the votes in even greater numbers. They now know that they could be standing in line for 12 hours. What if they have children to attend to? What if they have a demanding job that leaves them little time to vote (evenings) and are tired from work?

In (most of) Europe we vote on sunday. That makes everything a lot easier (for example traffic is lower). And in Germany we use hand-counting. We are a nation of 80 million people and STILL get the final results on monday evening, tuesday the latest.

There are more issues to the US-voting system, for example the system of electors is outdated by at least 100 years. My advice would be to dump all that, look around the world, get the best ideas and start over from scratch. It might do the USA a world of good!

Wow, more DUmmie rantings that nobody is paying attention to.
(Artie Lange)Whaaa Bush stole the election Whaaa
yet there is no proof Whaaaa

DUmmies are the most unhappy people in the world.
Funny DUmmies make me laugh HaHaHaHa

thanks, Martin.

Those are ideas that bothered me too as an American. We make voting hard for poorer people that’s true. We didn’t allow most of the population to vote for much of the history of the republic… or early confederacy. Particularly in southern states, Blacks weren’t allowed, women only got the vote about a century ago. It is a conservative country in many ways…. the US was last (except for Arabian nations) to ban slavery. And considering how Walmart treats their workers… (our largest employer .. at subminimum wages compared to Ireland and other EU nations).. slavery is still in effect in the USA.

Interesting rightwing web sites don’t allow “liberals” to post but rightwingers feel free to post here.

datadave, it’s that whole freedom of speech thing. Liberals are for it, right wingers aren’t.

A Rethug,

Come,you are a tedious fool.To the purpose.
            -Measure for Measure
Quote Shakespeare to an English Literature teacher next time.

    I am well aware of the melodrama of my essay.It was deliberate.I am also aware that jobs were outsourced during the Clinton administration.Furthermore,I can extrapolate that most of the politicians in my party don’t not care about me on a personal level.

    Let’s get to the center of my argument.Re-partisan politicians care about two things,getting rich from their job and exerting control over others to ensure they can do this as long as possible.The Bush administration does,I admit,have family values,unfortunately they’re Corleone family values.

    Re-partisans have a long history of siding with the wealthy and abandoning the poor.Under every Re-party administration since 1980,the Re-party have cut benefits for social welfare programs and frozen the minimum wage while giving away billions in tax benefits and corporate welfare,weakening government regulation and enforcement.Millions of jobs are created,yet even more jobs are lost.The Dow Jones may hit record highs but what did this mean in terms of dollars in worker’s pockets?

    Something else,Has anyone noticed that, despite all of these budget cuts,federal spending has never decreased?Where does all this money go?Especially under conservative administrations.Isn’t it odd that conservatives have never balanced the budget?.Strangely,it took a"liberal” to do that,and a “conservative"to quickly wreck it by giving money to rich people on the hope that they’d use it wisely.The trick didn’t work twenty years ago,but Re-partisans thought people would be dumb enough to fall for it again.They were right.

    The purpose of government is to benefit the citizenry,while symbiotically,the citizenry contributes to the well-being of their government.For this reason many democrats,like myself,are veterans and chose careers which we knew would be arduous,thankless,and miserly in pay yet directly benefit the citizenry.Re-partisans seem to either be unable to understand these concepts or they have contempt for them.

    Frankly,I don’t care what my party thiks of me,I do care what they do to benefit my country and fellow citizens.

    Oh,Fatima,your mother just called.She wanted me to ask you what kind of cake you want for your fifth birthday party.

I would love to see the Electoral College abolished.  It is true that it is antiquated and unfair.
Months befoe the election “BusinessWeek” magazine ran an issue that raised questions regarding the neccessity of the Electoral College and whether every vote should count.  I think every vote should count.  But is there any follow up discussions concerning the EC? No.
Poeple don’t care.  The gov’t is just too big.  People have daily business to take care of and politics are for the rich.  The apathy is collossal.

to Pat Grzybowski,

If you think the Supreme Court was acting in an impartial manner in 2000, maybe you were like, on another planet at the time. Maybe you’ve heard about this guy Antonin Scalia who is a Chief Justice of the Supreme court. Did you know that his son was the lawyer representing Bush in the recount case? Did you know that he has shown on several occasions that he doesn’t give a rat’s ass about presiding over cases where his presence is an obvious conflict of interest? Open your eyes, man… everyone’s scratching everyone else’s back, and you’re totally naive if you don’t realize that by now.

This is a real stinky scandal.
The integrity of the White House press just gets better every day.
http://mediamatters.org/topics/gannongate.html

Claire’s point number 18:

18.All - not some - but all the voting machine errors detected and reported in Florida went in favor of Bush or Republican candidates.
is for me the most damning. And I don’t think it was just Florida, was it? That “all” in there, if it does not reek of fish, I’m taking the wrong drugs.

What sure worries me is that, for example, Democratic congressmen and women have been so thoroughly browbeaten by the Rs into going along with the ‘idea’ that an investigation of the—for me at least—sufficiently massive volume of pockets of stinky air would be gravely threatening to the existence of our country as it is. I worry they buy the ‘security’ angle, ‘cause it’s a good arguement.

If I, as a politician, were faced with the weight of the ‘majority’ on me, I can easily see myself convincing myself that by ignoring this rancid election I was helping to ‘preserve’ America. With the exception of just a brave few, like Conyers, there were not many who stood up and said, “This is supposed to be our strength. This why we’re such a great country. Events of this magnitude Have to be conducted right, and if there’s this much evidence of a problem, it has to be investigated well and, if necessary, fixed.

America does not depend on any one president. Count the ones we’ve had. Lost a few at bad times, too, didn’t we? Although there’s somthing less of it, America’s still here. Prove to me that the president we have is there properly, and I will sit down and be quiet. And don’t tell me they’re “studying the exit polls.” They are raw data and do not need to be “studied” until some certain time. How long was it? Tell me they’re “studying what to Do with the exit polls.” And I’ll know you’re a straight-shooter.

This election stinks. I am not proud of the fact we are pretty much doing nothing about looking very carefully into any and all of the reported problems. There are simply too many.

GIVING IT ONE MORE SHOT:

I posted this yesterday, and no one (to my great surprise) commented on it, so I’m giving it another shot as I’d really like to know what people have to say on the points I bring up.  Otherwise, unfortunately, I have to assume that people just want to talk and present their points of view without really caring of it makes a difference or not, and I’d really hate to think that’s the case as it doesn’t accomplish anything.  Here goes:

I’d honestly like to know what people think of what I have to say.  Firstly, I’m definitely of the opinion that the election was stolen, that our democracy exists only as a fantasy, that this administration is evil, etc., so you know where I come from.  The problem I’ve encountered are two-fold:

1. What can be done about it?
2. Trying to convert the other side to your point of view is a waste of time.

For me, and it might seem silly to some, the only reasonable thing I can do to “do something about it” is to pray - to pray for the war and madness to stop, to pray that we get a government that actually wants to help people and problems at home and in the world.  Talking about it with people on the other side of the fence has basically gotten me a whole lot of nothing.  Maybe it’s the undecideds and open minded and fence sitters we need to go after, because honestly, the possibility of me getting someone that agrees with the right wing conservative christian republican point of view on things to suddenly see the Light and change their point of view is exactly the same possibility of one of them convincing me that war is justified or that homosexuality is wrong - i.e., it’s NOT going to happen. I guess that putting out stories like this one are important, but then again, they always (because of our lovely media) end up showing up in the alternative press, and the people who read the alternative press either do because they know the regular press isn’t telling the truth, or they’re trying to actively refute the alternative press and get people to buy into all the b.s.  While putting out articles like this one are noble, and I’m sure necessary, it seems to accomplish little.  So, I’m still left with:

1. What can be done about it?
2. Trying to convert the other side to your point of view is a waste of time.

I do believe the truth will come out because I have an unreasonable belief and faith in the good side of the force (if you will), but how and when this will happen I know not.  All I personally can do at the moment is pray and trust that God (or whatever you want to call it in whatever way you want to believe in it) will deliver…

Gary,

Don’t despair. I was recently reading an online pub called “The Conservative Voice”, not because I am one, but because they had a pretty interesting message board concerning the Gannon/Guckert scandal. You’d be amazed at how many Repubs and Fundies posted that “that was the last straw” and they’re all through supporting Bush and the Neocon administration. There is hope yet for people to accept REAL reality instead of the Orwellian reality of doublethink the WH has put forth.

I think you all are giving too much weight to the polls.  It is never the case that what statisticians predict will definitely occur.  Your odds of winnning the lottery are terrible.  A mathematician will tell you that you will not win.  Yet, it is possible that you will win.

The biggest question is whether the polls represented a good sample of voters.  I didn’t notice anyone doing exit polls when I voted…

All the more reason to have international observers to make sure our elections are fair.  Don’t we offer this service to other countries?  Seems we are behind even the Ukraine!

Gary,
Huh?
  “All I personally can do at the moment is pray and trust that God (or whatever you want to call it in whatever way you want to believe in it) will deliver”

So, what you really mean is that there is nothing you can do?

To All of Us Who Are Awake and Smelling the Coffee:

I enjoyed the really intelligent and well-researched data put on the site yesterday.  Claire, you are amazing.  Please run for office.

Last night I re-read the day’s input and two comments beyond the main discussion point rang so true to me.

1.  The quote (loosely put) “Educating a closed mind is like trying to give medicine to a dead man.”

2.  “Kurtis, you’re neither trying to learn nor teach anyone anything here…”

What really struck home with me, and I hope with the rest of you who don’t plug their ears and sing “La-la-la-la” when people try to give you new information, is that the “ReThugs” of this world only seek to diminish and destroy.  They have no interest in seeking the truth, they just want to be Number 1 and squash those they feel that are below them.  Every Republican blogger yesterday did nothing to further the discussion, and their evidence (except Brenda, whose evidence was just party rhetoric) was composed of insults.

So what’s the big lesson here?  I propose that whenever a rude Republican blogger jumps on the thread, just ignore them.  If no one ever reacts to their statements, what a bore for them.  Just a piece of advice, Jesus told us, “don’t cast your pearls before swine”, so let’s take his advice.

Kurtis and Justin reflect the hilarity the GOP experiences at our expense. They know as well
as we do the election was rigged. They sit
back and say one simplistic comment about
us being sore loosers and getting over it
and gain amusement watching us twist and
turn explaining what they know for fact.

They are either far more intelligent than the
simplicity of their statements (Kurtis falls
in this category, I’d gather) reflect and use
it to gain support of those that simple sort
of rhetoric appeals to; or they are actually
that simple (Justin) to say such things and
actually mean them - trusting the GOP.

How else can a party set up by/for the rich which make up a small part of the population be able to even be competitive without adopting stances on divisive issues to pull from those who’d otherwise vote Democrat?

This is why the vast majority of gay-haters and new-Christians especially tend to be simple folk in lower income brackets. So that’s who they sell to, and it works.

Corporations do advertising well, the art of selling something to you that you really don’t benefit from. Whether it’s on a store shelf or it’s an empty suite who’s more marketable than the two fat, bald, bespectacled men who are really running the show (Karl & Dick).

Mark D.

Yeah! Why are they so defensive?

Gary, I hear you - it is so frustrating to know what’s going on, but because of our republican-owned media in this country, there aren’t as many of us as there would be if the truth were told in our newspapers and television.  People are sheep evidently and they go which they are told to go and believe what they are told to believe.  So, what to do?  I know one thing - I’m not contributing to any more elections until I know our votes will count again.  When you win an election (and Kerry did) and still “lose”, America is in real trouble.  Bush stole the elction in 2000, the 2002 elections were definitely fixed too and now this.  What will it take to wake Americans up?  They’re taking social securtiy away, environmental protections and the war in Iraq kills more and more people (Americans too) and nobody really seems to notice or care.  Of course, the media is what keeps it all going.  Prayer is certainly important - and not supporting the corporate economy is something we can do. There must be something - join a group - start a group?  Wait and watch while Amrica goes down the tubes?  I would move to Canada if I could - Canada is the country we all dream of - low crime, gun control, health care for all, environmental protection, abortion rights, gay rights, civilized people, support for peace.  Anyway, I love Claire’s posts - she is so right on!!

Mary—

There is something we can do besides praying.  Join your local chapter of the DNC or whatever group you think could work en masse to save our country.  You would be surprised how very few people turn up at the meetings.  Even a month before the election, there were only about 30 people, and two were Republicans who came to harrass.  Howard Dean is right.  We have to build from the grass roots up.

> By the way, it’s “beginners”, not “begginers”.

Amusing Brenda, I love how so many who post spelling corrections are always on your side.
Rather than tackle the issue at hand, pick up
crumbs when the kitchen is on fire.

Quoting Dick Morris. Hilarious. The same guy who was fired by Clinton after finding out about his own extramarital buffoonery and coke habit, etc.

Now he’s suddenly on Fox all the time, I guess they pay better.

About the Florida post-election recount efforts.
SORRY, you’re wrong again. But I applaud your attempt to give lengthy intelligent answers instead of quick soundbytes that echo that take I’d just given on simplistic answer folks.

Every media source that did a recount after the Supremes did their thing for Bush concluded it was won by Bush. Every one except one.

They all just recounted the Democratic areas that Gore & Co. wanted recounted (Gore’s biggest post election error - not demanding it be statewide, and thus having no equal protection violations).

All except one, USA TODAY. Only they did a state-wide recount. Only they concluded with that he actually won Florida by close to 100 votes.

So Gore won the popular vote AND should have won the Electoral vote too. Truth hurts, doesn’t it?

Mark D.

David, David, David, you are sorely mistaken, and are in obvious need of a refresher course on constitutional law.  I’d suggest you go back to Cracker Jack U and have them reopen those books for you.  Lord have mercy on your clients.

It is entirely up to the states to set up and manage presidential elections.  It has nothing to do with the US government, except that the electors from each state are sent to the US government (congress) to deliver their votes, and that US government candidates are being chosen.  The election itself is a state run, state monitored, state controlled function. 

Not only did the SCOTUS have no jurisdiction over this presidential election in FL in 2000, but the ruling that they delivered was completely, 100% flawed and uable to stand scrutiny, which is why they did not sign their decision, and also why they specifically stated that the ruling served no precedence for any other case.  In other words, they pulled it out of their butts, and they knew it. 

In reality, had the ruling of equal protection truly been asserted in this case, NONE of the votes would’ve been counted for EITHER candidate, because the equal protection law could just as easily be used in Gore’s favor as in Bush’s, and in fact, SHOULD have been applied to both, as per the very interpretation of the law.  If Bush was harmed as a result of a violation of equal protection, based upon the fact that there was no statewide voting standard in FL, then Gore was harmed in precisely the same manner. 

There are so few legal scholars or attorneys that side with this fraudulant decision that they really don’t even measure.  One thing that you’ll notice on the rare occassion that you actually do see someone side with this ruling, is that they will provide no substantive research documentation to back up their findings.  They are all “Davids,” in that they speak their opinion without having based it in any facts whatsoever. 

On the other hand, the hundreds of legal scholars and attorneys who have stood up in protest of this fraudulant decision have reams of documentation to back up their stance. 

The FL supreme court was enforcing FL state law, which mandated a FULL, THOROUGH, HAND recount in the case of an election being as close as this was.  Of course, team Bush knew full well that they would never “win” if a full recount was conducted, so they went to a fullcourt legal press, and in doing so, attempted to adhere strict, rigid guidelines as to which votes could be counted or not.  THIS is where the problems arose. 

As we all know by now, when the ONLY full, hand recount WAS finally conducted, by the famous newspaper consortium, it was found that in nearly every counting scenario, Gore won.  The only scenario in which Gore would’ve LOST, in fact (and quite ironically), was the standard that the Gore team was attempting to apply, which was undervotes. 

Of course, our ever-vigilant “liberal media” brought us this stunning news long after the bogus election, in paragraph 16 under a headline entitled “BUSH WINS…..AGAIN.”  Hmmmmm…..Bush wins, yet in paragraph 16, those readers that actually made it that far into the article learned that, in fact, Gore had won.  Interesting. 

Lost in the discussion of the fraudulant SCOTUS decision on Dec. 12, 2000, however, is the fact that the theft of election 2000 began long before the vote took place, and included such notables as a corrupt republican FL governor and his corrupt secretary of state, who conspired to illegally purge legal voters from voting lists (against the FL supreme court order, btw). 

Also, corruption took the form of defective machines placed in democratic precincts, precincts shut down for no reason, threats of police arrest of black voters, republican operatives calling democratic voters to tell them that “Because of a large volume of voters turning out, we’re asking that republican voters vote on Tues, and democrats on Wed,” electronic voting machines owned by extremist Christian fundamentalists who openly support GOP candidates, etc., etc., etc. 

The fraud occurred at so many levels that it was truly difficult to grasp the entire scope of it.  And of course, it was fine tuned in 2002, and “perfected” in 2004.  In all three of the past elections, you can see the exact same patterns of voter fraud, voter disenfranchisement, corrupt secretaries of state, electronic voting machines with no paper trail, mysterious vote flipping, bizarre and inexplicible exit polling and final polling results in comparison with official results, and on and on and on. 

Unless, until there is a paper trail attached to these voting machines and there is FULL transparency in the counting process, with public oversight, democrats will never, ever win another major election in this country.  The fix is definitely in, friends.

Do you all think that the public still cares—or would care if they knew—or have they “moved on”?

Curious,

Sadly, I think that the majority of Americans do not care.  Let’s face it, people are just into their daily lives, who owns what, who’s dating who, what new car is hot, etc.

I went to the University of Heidelberg in the 70’s and I used to think walking down those streets, “Wow, 40 years ago Nazis were in control here, marching down these very streets”.  I used to wonder why people hadn’t gotten out of Germany earlier, once they saw what was happening.  But you know, it’s the same point as above.  They had jobs, kids, spouses, mortgages.  They were focused on their lives, and they didn’t mentally exercise their ability to reason beyond the immediately tangible.  By the time they did, it was too late.

I’m very sad to see that Americans, too, have fallen into this malaise.

I would submit that if the “liberal media” were making an issue over this, the American public WOULD care.  Every single person that I’ve ever shared this with, whether they knew it previously or not, are dumbfounded as to why this is happening unchecked.

Let’s face it, it behooves ALL of us, liberal, democratic, green, communist, neocon, conservative, republican, fascist, whatever, to see to it that our election process is not only fair, but that it is 100% transparent and entirely reliable.  If we cannot verify our votes, what is the purpose?  The entire act becomes nothing more than a show, which, come to think of it, is probably the intent. 

I hate to say it, but I don’t feel terribly confident about the future of American democracy.  I think we’ve already lost it, and we may NEVER get it back.  We surely won’t get it back by allowing the “liberal media” to continue hiding this type of information.

It was a close election…so we have to acknowledge the oponents. Now, another side to the story:

I liked Kerry, but he ran a lame campaign. In some ways I thought the election went sour when he didn’t do much campaigning in the late summer, instead was seen sailboarding near Nantucket, while the smear artists of the Repugs were fullout attacking him.

Another ?? Why did Kerry not spend all the campaign moneies available… and did he really want the Presidency. Some have suggested that the economy is so bad that whoever got the Presidency is presiding over a Hoover type of Presidency and that Party in power would get all the blame… William Greider’s column last of the last year…says it: http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20041108&s=greider
Just perhaps Kerry knew he’d lose and didn’t fight it??? John Edwards on the other hand sort of got screwed.. he gave up his Senate seat didn’t he.. while Kerry didn’t.

what can we do? Perhaps be more active in turning the Democratic Party away from the losing strategies of the Clinton wing, Democratic Leadership Council conservatism.. and seek a more radical street fighting personna to match the hardcore Fascist machine of Bush/NeoCon/Rove types. And don’t discount everything Nader’s saying.. that corportations are the heart of both the National Parties… Make the Democrats again the working people’s and middleclass party.. while maintaining it’s intellectual edge. A tough proposition.. but Dean’s right No More Republican Lite.. as that’s failed in the last 25 years….

in last post.. I still admit that probably Kerry won the popular vote If a Proper Hand Count was offered… but none the less it was a Close election.. so that’s another reason that we still have to admit the possibility that a majority of the voters are dupped, fooled by a overwhelming Right wind Media controlled onslot of disinformation…
In the New Yorker there’s an article about Karl Rove still being outraged that the “mainstream media” didn’t notice his killer machine of organization.. and he made one point.. that the Republicans were active in organizing battle ground states.. while Democrats only started a year before the election. Probably Diebold’s black box secret codes threw the election.. but we have to acknowledge that Rove et al coulda won it fair even under totally transparent conditions…. I think paper ballots, hand counting as in Germany and Canada is far more efficient and fair.. they are able to know the election’s outcome by midnight no matter what and with far less controversy than our secretive proprietary controlled ‘black box’ counting methods. Part of the reason for American’s unjustified belief in technology is that local officials are ‘sold’ a bill of goods that electronic voting is better… so that those officials don’t have to round up as many volunteers on election day. But American methods are more expensive, non transparent as a result. Reminds me of our unfair inefficient and expensive health care system.

Lewis,

Regarding this:

Gary,
Huh?
“All I personally can do at the moment is pray and trust that God (or whatever you want to call it in whatever way you want to believe in it) will deliver”

So, what you really mean is that there is nothing you can do?

I guess it’s a matter of personal belief, as I believe prayer can really create miracles, but if you believe that it does nothing, I completely respect you and that point of view.  My point was that talking about it seemed to do very little, but maybe I’m wrong.  I apprecaite the suggestions others have made and I’m sure people can also understand my despair and frustration in the direction the W. and his lot have taken the country and the world in the past 4+ years.  Anyway, thanks…

I like how ‘brad’ was the first one and then after all of Claire’s facts (and everybody else’s) he just shut the hell up.  You have to realize though, that that’s what the normal dude is going to say.  There is no doubt in my mind that individuals have taken over the republican party and are using Christian morals and patriotism (and lots of CASH) to make the average Joe believe in what they are saying.  To be quite honest, it is silly to spend these four years trying to prove that BOTH elections were frauds and that right wing conservatives are trying to take over the world… WE KNOW THEY WERE- might as well investigate whether O.J. had a hand in this!  There are more important things that need to be done.  Spend our time/resources wisely.  We need to get to the younger people (“change is good!”).  We need to take back television.  MORE Ads!! (I know people try and try and the Republicans stop them, but we can do it) 
Whatever… all I’m saying is that if I made some pudding and we tasted it, people could spend 4 years deciding whether it tasted really really bad… by the time you would come to the decision that my pudding was bad, I could have made some really good pudding. 
hmm… looking back, that was a strange analogy, but you get my drift… I’m at home sick and the day quill is goooooood.  Ok… peaceout America… lets stop wasting time figuring out how evil these assholes are and who they are… lets just change shit and make bright, free-thinkers for the future.  The past sucks… moving on…

Hi all

I wanted to first say thanks for the compliments! I’m humbled! :) I am on many a forum so have access to a lot of info that way.

Second, there is something we can do. NathanLynn touched on it as well, though there is value in investigating the past I think in addition - after all, it won’t come out if it isn’t. BUT, what we can do to move forward is to support those with legislation that requires a paper ballot on any of the machines. Also, join or start a State Progressive Caucus - Progressive Democrats of America (PDA) is making election reform their #1 issue. Check them out at www.pdamerica.org - there you can also contact your representatives about supporting the bills I mentioned before.

RUN FOR OFFICE! Help out locally. Educate people about this issue. Educate your representatives as well. Many have been brainwashed into thinking HAVA requires we go electronic and that a voter verifiable paper ballot isn’t needed and will only cost more money. Wrong. It’s lobbyists in bed with the machine makers feeding them that line of bull. You can find the facts here:

http://www.votersunite.org/MB2.pdf

Print out the table of contents and fax them to your representatives and election officials with a link to the entire document, or better yet, after you fax the TOC, make an appointment to meet with them and hand deliver it. For more info, go here http://www.votersunite.org

Keep it up!

Ralph, Ralph, Ralph.  I daresay I agree with nearly everything you said.  I don’t know why you think I don’t unless there is some other David who is a lawyer posting on this board.

But the point I really wanted to make is that the problem started with the Florida Legislature in that election laws are designed for state offices not federal ones. 

If there is a problem with an election of your state representative, it may take nine months or a year to go through the recount process and legal process to resolve it.  Very common in election cases.  That is how long they take.  And who cares if the state is one representative shy for nine months or so.  It is no big deal.

But these same laws also have to apply to the Presidential election because of the electoral college.  A nine month delay here and the issue is moot.

That is why I say systemic election fraud should be called an election coup.  There is nothing realistically that the courts can do about it.

One other point: I had always heard that there was a real question as to whether Gore could ask for a statewide recount.  According to the Washington Post:

Nor was there any guarantee that Gore could have succeeded in getting a statewide recount. Florida law provided no mechanism to ask for a statewide recount, only county-by-county recounts.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A12623-2001Nov11.html

Gore offered, but Bush declined.  According to the Post, Bush would have won unless Gore could have asked for a statewide recount.

Again, this points to the problem that a state election law creates for a national election.

The one problem that clearly would have made a difference in Florida was the one people did not hear about but was reported by Greg Palast—between 50,000 and 90,000 blacks were stricken from the voter rolls on the grounds that the were felons when they were not.  That was a real travesty and their votes would have clearly produced a victory for Gore.

Gary:

I am having some success with sending out Freeman’s articles nad USCountVote analyses.  It depends on who you send them to.  Pick the smartest most educated people you know and send these articles to them.  Send ChuckHerrin’s article.

These articles get educated people wondering.  It also helps them begin to see what they have been missing by relying on the MSM for their news and may turn them to the internet.

It happened to me when the war started.

Where did those 300 “uncounted” ballot boxes in Iraq come from anyway?

Thanks Dr Freeman!

The Republican party has been taken over by End-Time Christians. I recommend you bookmark this new resource:

http://www.theocracywatch.org

Let me quote one of those folks:
“It is dominion we are after.
Not just a voice.
Not just influence.
Not just equal time”

Very few Americans are actually aware of that reality. When enough of us know about this, we will be able to take our country back.

I am up way too late.  Just had to say to Joe Progressive that I followed that link.  First time there.
What an eye opener. Really really scary.  Loads of evidence and links.
Bush is more radical than I could have imagined.
Extremist to the extreme. Reincarnated Nazis.
Where is the gospel of Love and Tolerance and Kindness?

Joe Progressive

I hope everyone goes to that site. I was aware of it but haven’t seen it as well laid out as it is there. CHILLING. These people aren’t real Christians.

Claire,

Great to see you blogging again!  Enjoyed you and Ralph the other day.  Yes, it is true that the Republican Party has envisioned themselves as the “Christianizers” of America.  Unfortunately, when you compare their deeds witht the teachings of Jesus, they fall very short.  “Pharisees” would be a better description.

While, as we discussed the other day, I am a Christian, I am also a Democrat and abhor the current administration and the attitude of our country.  I, too, do believe in the Rapture and the Tribulation period, etc.  However, the Bible is pretty specific that all men are sinful and there is “nothing new under the sun”, so I don’t know how this Moral Majority considers themselves such beacons to the “lost”.  It is very clear that no government will ever be truly just until Jesus Christ himself reigns, and the last time I looked, Bush could not lay that mantle on himself!

One thing that is scary to me is that when the backlash occurs (and it will eventually), people like me will be ostracized and ridiculed for their beliefs.  Both sides need to remember that while I cannot and should not impose my beliefs on you (rather we are instructed to share our faith in a loving manner), it is also my right to maintain my beliefs and not suffer persecution for them.  The blade cuts both ways.
At the moment, however, I am very embarrassed by the behavior of most mainstream Christians who are actually behaving more like Nazis than ambassadors of Christ.

Bush Supporter Vanity Fair Reporter Christopher Hitchens has seen the light, calling for an investigation into the Ohio election. http://www.vanityfair.com/commentary/content/articles/050214roco05
Hitchens checked with an election machine manufacturing expert and he writes:
“I asked her, finally, what would be the logical grounds for deducing that any tampering had in fact occurred. ‘Well, I understand from what I have read,’ she said, ‘that the early exit polls on the day were believed by both parties.’ That, I was able to tell her from direct experience, was indeed true. But it wasn’t quite enough, either. So I asked, ‘What if all the anomalies and malfunctions, to give them a neutral name, were distributed along one axis of consistency: in other words, that they kept on disadvantaging only one candidate?’ My question was hypothetical, as she had made no particular study of Ohio, but she replied at once: ‘Then that would be quite serious.’”
Then, Hitchens concludes:
“I am not any sort of statistician or technologist, and (like many Democrats in private) I did not think that John Kerry should have been president of any country at any time. But I have been reviewing books on history and politics all my life, making notes in the margin when I come across a wrong date, or any other factual blunder, or a missing point in the evidence. No book is ever free from this. But if all the mistakes and omissions occur in such a way as to be consistent, to support or attack only one position, then you give the author a lousy review. The Federal Election Commission, which has been a risible body for far too long, ought to make Ohio its business. The Diebold company, which also manufactures A.T.M.s, should not receive another dime until it can produce a voting system that is similarly reliable. And Americans should cease to be treated like serfs or extras when they present themselves to exercise their franchise.”
Additionally, Blackwell was recently blasted by Ohio Republican congressman Bob Ney for refusing to testify in front of a bi-partisan congressional committee investigating the 2004 presidential election: “[w]e can have disagreements, but you can’t run and you can’t hide.” Blackwell also recently claimed in federal court that the federal courts had no jurisdiction over his actions in a federal election.
So, Repugs, do you think he has something to hide?

It all sounds like speculation to me.  Give me some hard facts.  If this was true, the media would’ve jumped on it.

Get over it already.

AmericanInsurgent quoted Hitchens as saying, “I am not any sort of statistician or technologist,” and apparently that applies to you, too, Rick.  If you had any background in statistical research you would know that the article by Freeman and Mittledorf is not speculation, and it does present hard facts.  The media, by and large, are not statisticians either, and being beholden to the corporate mentality, as they are, they cannot jump on this side and expect to keep their jobs.

Yes, the media, our shining Light Of Truth would have jumped on it. 
Take your head out of the sand.

Poor Rick!  He doesn’t have any fact to substantiate his fantasy that the press in America is free and delivers the news in an impartial manner.  Sorry, dear boy, but Christopher Hitchens is one the most right-wing ideologues I know of in the press (I won’t even count Limbaugh, Coulter, etc. because they are caricatures of journalists).  He would NEVER come out and say anything like this if he didn’t have hard facts. 

Before you stick your head back in the sand, Rick, go read the whole article.

Margaret,

You said, “One thing that is scary to me is that when the backlash occurs (and it will eventually), people like me will be ostracized and ridiculed for their beliefs.  Both sides need to remember that while I cannot and should not impose my beliefs on you (rather we are instructed to share our faith in a loving manner), it is also my right to maintain my beliefs and not suffer persecution for them.”

I really don’t think this has to be the case.  I belive in Christ, but in a different than as it is strictly stated in the Bible, but I very much respect your beliefs, and I in no way would hold all Christian’s responsible for the actions of a certain group.  That would be like holding all white people responsible for racism or all men responsible for sexism.  I think most reasonable and intelligent people understand that the actions of some people doesn’t necessarily reflect upon all people who share certain characteristics.  After all, you’re a Christian, but you are also different from the neocons based on your post, so you’re not really in that specific group anyway. Have faith in people that when change comes, and I believe it will too, true righteousness will take place and only those who are truly responsible for certain actions will be held responsible.

Peace & Love,
Gary

Jack . . . Jack . . . such abject arrogance for someone completely devoid of a single substantive factual rebuttal !!

You posted: “Caltech, MIT, and basically every nonpartisan voting study has found that voter fraud, if it existed, had no effect on the outcome of the election.”

First of all, your unsubstantiated claim that “basically every nonpartisan voting study has found” is too much like a ‘blind quote’ (such as ‘some people say’) to let go by without striking it down. My advice: provide links with names to some of these mythical “nonpartisan voting” studies that have found there was “no effect on the outcome of the election” that you so eloquently mention without presenting proof. Not only do they need to be presented, these alleged ‘studies’ need to be evaluated in order for your claim to be substantiated. If you want to make a claim to support an argument, don’t make someone else do your homework for you. I won’t even ask you to try defending the use of the phrase ”basically every.”

Secondly, why aren’t UPenn and Temple University also two of the most highly respected educational institutions on the planet? And why should anyone believe you over them? This pointedly refutes your wild “basically every nonpartisan voting study has found” assertion.

And before you predictably launch into your ‘Liberal elite’ rant concerning UPenn and Temple University, provide the evidence that this was a partisan study. You may also want to make some inquiries as to the major corporate and individual grants that Caltech & MIT receive before you lump them into the “nonpartisan” column. Their major sources of funding are well documented. Again, do your homework.

Thirdly, you state: “who’s to say that the locations used by the exit pollsters weren’t leaked ahead of time, and that MoveOn, ACT, etc. didn’t flood them so as to stack the results?”

What?!?!  You maintain that this is believable?!? Have you considered how absurd a notion that is?? (rhetorical, don’t answer) Talk about conspiratorial nonsense. Think about what would be required to make even a small dent in exit polling data, even assuming that EVERY MoveOn conspirator that was mobilized got the opportunity to take part in the random exit polling questionnaire. Do you honestly believe that organizations such as those have the resources and manpower to devote to skewing an exit poll AND to getting people to the polls to vote? What would anyone or any entity prefer – to actually WIN an election, or MAKE IT SEEM AS THOUGH they won an election?

Further, you must believe the firms that perform the exit polling services are in on this vast left wing conspiracy by leaking the exit polling locations. So how logical is it that they would collect intentionally flawed exit-polling data, thereby subverting their ability to land the forthcoming contract to exit poll the next election?!? Not very.

Fourth, you ask: “Who’s to say the Kerry campaign didn’t try this trick so as to influence news coverage and trigger lower Republican turnout in the western states?” This too is supposed to be believable? You must have forgotten that most indications earlier in the day were that Kerry was leading, yet those states that were predicted to have voted ‘Red’ ended up voting ’Red’ anyway. Further, why would only Republicans turn away from the polls? After all, it was to have been a close election, so why wouldn’t they instead be more motivated to head to the polls in greater numbers, and conversely, why wouldn’t Democrats turn away if the outcome was already decided? Again, the ‘Red’ states were going ‘Red’ anyway, which is why Kerry hardly campaigned out west, so once again your supposition is wholly without merit or factual basis.

Actually, you defeat your own points by stating “I’m not actually suggesting any of this ever happened, quite the contrary, in fact.” My advice: it’s not good debate style to beat yourself in your own debate.

I am, however, curious - I have to know how or where you come up with those two examples. I applaud your imagination - but I digress.

Lastly, you state “You automatically assume that Bush stole the election . . .” How presumptuous. It is not automatically assumed. Nor is it to be so easily and summarily dismissed as “snide innuendo” or irrational, especially when you fail to offer one legitimate, factual refutation on any of the points made in the piece by Freeman and Mitteldorf. On the contrary, there is considerable statistical and factual evidence that enough voter fraud occurred at many levels, and in many ways, to make the case that Bush benefited from a rigged election.

Many of us eagerly anticipate your point-by-point refutation of that case.

Take a break from worshipping at the Altar Of The Exit Polls for a moment:

http://www.mysterypollster.com/main/2004/11/exit_polls_what.html

Two points:

First the CalTech/MIT study. It was determined to be seriously flawed.  Shortly after midnight on election day, the exit polls were “corrected” to conform with actual results.  The people who did this study did not know about the “correction” when they did the study.  Of course, since the data had been corrected to reflect the actual results, this study should have shown the actual tabulation was correct.

Freeman pointed out the CalTech/MIT mistake very early on, and since then, not a peep out of CalTech/MIT.  How embarrasing!  The proper data to use was the uncorrupted data which is what Freeman and others have used.

Second, Mystery Pollster.  He’s still taking courses towards his Masters.  I think that says enough.

Yeah, the MSM is on top of it!
The liberal media seems to have missed out on the gay Monica Lewinski in the Homophobe White House. Jeff Gannongate is sorta like Monica servicing Bill in the Oval Office after Bill Clinton said he wanted to pass a constitutional ban on oral sex. Except Monica didn’t have a web-site like Iwillinhale.com.
Let’s count the votes and let’s count the gays in the white house while we’re at it.

Can you spell, hypocrite, without my help?

Hi Joe Progressive,

I think this is great the way it’s layed out, too bad it can’t be this way and you know it never will be don’t you?

This article is excellent but is only the tip of the iceberg. The GOP has made an art form of vote fraud for quite some time, I am afraid. Since 2000 they have taken it to a new level though, based on all of the documented evidence including the documented exit poll discrepency this year. I totally agree with this article’s theory that the GOP had to make the public believe that Bush won the popular vote this time and that they stole a lot of votes in areas where they knew that they would carry anyway. I am afraid that this is only one election where they are altering results and that Congressional races have also been stolen.

Have any of you heared of Wayne Madsen?

Claire,

Yes, I have heard of Wayne Madsen and I agree with his opinions. I cannot believe how this so called democracy has regressed in a few short years, although in reality it has probably been happening since Nov 22, 1963. Now though, the powers that be aren’t even really trying to hide what they’re doing, although they never admit it.
I tell everyone I talk to, unfortunately, most of us “common folk” just want to go to work and go home and be left alone. We want to trust the people that are elected to do whats right, like most of us try to do in our daily lives. But that ain’t reality at the top levels of our govt. What a crying shame. All of the good hard-working peace loving people in this country are being represented by some right-wing extremists playing on all of our fears. Meanwhile, we watch as they pilfer social programs and throw money at defense contractors, Wall Street and the Oil Industry.

“More than 2,000 people and organizations begged Nader to request a recount after a statistical analysis posted on the Internet showed some New Hampshire precincts using the Accuvote machines gave President Bush up to 15 percent more votes than expected, based on exit polls and the 2000 presidential vote.”  AP Nov 19th

http://www.seacoastonline.com/2004news/rock/11192004/news/49585.htm

“It looks like a pretty accurate count here in New Hampshire,” said Michael Richardson, Nader’s representative.

Nader campaign officials have said the recount could expand to other precincts, or even other states, based on the results. But no candidate’s tallies have changed enough to affect overall percentages so far.

“There doesn’t seem to be any error due to fraud based on what we’re seeing here today,” Richardson said.  AP, Nov 30

http://www.nashuatelegraph.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041130/NEWS02/111 1300050/-1/news

New Hampshire has a paper ballot trail and the recount showed that the exit polls were wrong there (According to the exit polls, Kerry should have won by a much greater margin than he did in New Hampshire.) 

Does anyone know why the exit polls were wrong in New Hampshire?

Finally, a thought provoking question.  New Hampshire.  I had totally forgotten about the recount there.  I am also curious.  What happened there?

Whether or not the election was fraudulent, whether or not Bush had more or less than a majority, too many people voted for him.  It’s a case of true-blue states vs. red-neck states.

Many people voted for Bush, it’s true, but what do you expect: a constant barrage of lies and manipulation, pandering to people’s worst instincts, a “liberal media” that’s afraid to report anything of which the right might dissaprove, and the billion dollars spent on his behalf!! Yet, despite all that, if this article is correct, the Dems won the election! It’s not enough that they have every advantage and taking the lowest road; they get an eight million vote handicap too?

http://www.invisibleida.com/

for info on NH

I asked about this here

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&addr ress=203x330551#330649

Here’s the deal with the NH.  Only 373 people were polled in the exit poll, way to few to get an accurate state number.

The pre-election polls were dead on however, the asumption being that enough people were polled pre-election to get the numbers right.

Correction.  NH exit poll had 1849 people, pleant enough to be accurate.

Claire: I tried to go to the website you posted, but I get a “Request Error”:

The page you requested cannot be displayed.
Access Denied
The page you requested cannot be displayed because you do not have access to this forum or this forum is currently offline. If you wish to access this forum, please contact the administrator of this site.
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Click here to go back to previous page.
Could you tell us what you learned there about the NH recount?

Curious

There was a lot back and forth and I was just waiting to hear from someone called “Truth Is All” who is brilliant with numbers. And TIA posted this:

TruthIsAll (1000+ posts)    Sun Feb-20-05 02:10 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. NH: 1849 polled, MOE = 2.27% but….
Edited on Sun Feb-20-05 02:12 AM by TruthIsAll
There are many who are suspicious about the NH recount (method
and precincts chosen). Just look at the Ohio recount farce.

And…I never trusted Nader.
Not in 2000.
Not in 2004.
Not now.

Sorry, Mistwell. The exit polls were right. That has been
proven to everyone’s satisfaction except you. 

PollKerry2 partyPollProb.Dev/Beyond
StSizeMOEStdevVotePollDevDevMOEMOE?
1NH18492.27%1.16P.69U.50-4.81%0.00%-2.12Yes
2NY14522.47%1.26Y.29c.97-4.68%0.01%-1.89Yes
3SC17352.34%1.20A.36E.79-4.42%0.01%-1.89Yes
4NC21672.10%1.07C.76G.31-3.55%0.05%-1.69Yes
5VT6853.56%1.81`.30e.69-5.38%0.15%-1.51Yes

6PA19302.22%1.13Q.26T.41-3.15%0.27%-1.42Yes
7OH19632.21%1.13H.94R.06-3.12%0.28%-1.41Yes
8MN21782.09%1.07Q.76T.61-2.85%0.38%-1.36Yes
9FL28461.84%0.94G.48I.93-2.45%0.44%-1.34Yes
10DE7703.48%1.78S.83X.44-4.61%0.47%-1.32Yes

11MA8893.10%1.58b.68f.46-3.79%0.84%-1.22Yes
12AL7303.57%1.827.10A.08-3.98%1.45%-1.11Yes
13RI8093.30%1.69`.58d.24-3.66%1.49%-1.11Yes
14NJ15202.49%1.27S.40V.13-2.73%1.61%-1.09Yes
15AK9103.18%1.626.77@.14-3.37%1.91%-1.06Yes

16UT7983.18%1.62&.65).93-3.28%2.16%-1.03Yes
17NE7853.37%1.723.156.54-3.39%2.43%-1.01Yes
18CT8723.27%1.67U.28X.47-3.20%2.76%-0.98
19NV21162.13%1.09H.68P.66-1.98%3.44%-0.93
20AR14022.61%1.33D.72F.93-2.21%4.89%-0.84

21VA14312.59%1.32E.87G.96-2.09%5.65%-0.81
22MS7983.44%1.75@.44C.20-2.76%5.77%-0.80
23NM19512.22%1.13I.60Q.34-1.74%6.17%-0.79
24LA16692.38%1.22B.67D.50-1.83%6.67%-0.77
25IL13922.60%1.33U.22W.13-1.92%7.44%-0.74

26CO25151.95%1.00G.63I.07-1.44%7.45%-0.74
27AZ18592.27%1.16E.00F.60-1.60%8.39%-0.70
28ID5593.91%1.990.683.33-2.66%9.14%-0.68
29WA21232.12%1.08S.65U.07-1.42%9.43%-0.67
30GA15362.48%1.26A.65C.11-1.46.33%-0.59

31DC7951.92%0.98�.52�.63-1.11.86%-0.58
32MO21582.11%1.07F.38G.48-1.09.42%-0.52
33IA25021.96%1.00I.66P.67-1.01.62%-0.52
34IN9263.17%1.629.58@.97-1.39.43%-0.44
35MI24521.98%1.01Q.73R.55-0.83 .66%-0.42

36CA19192.22%1.13U.04U.73-0.69'.12%-0.31
37KY10343.00%1.539.99@.76-0.760.89%-0.25
38MD10003.07%1.57V.57W.04-0.478.14%-0.15
39OK15392.38%1.214.434.73-0.30@.32%-0.13
40ME19682.20%1.12T.58T.83-0.25A.15%-0.11

41WI22232.08%1.06P.19P.21-0.02I.17%-0.01
42MT6403.78%1.939.509.280.22E.51%0.06
43HI4994.38%2.23T.40S.321.081.38%0.25
44OR10643.00%1.53R.11Q.220.89(.17%0.29
45SD14952.45%1.259.097.421.67%9.11%0.68

46WY6843.50%1.78).692.072.38%9.07%0.68
47ND6493.63%1.856.093.582.51%8.76%0.69
48KS6543.65%1.867.134.602.53%8.68%0.69
49WV17222.35%1.20C.52E.191.67%8.14%0.71
50TX16712.31%1.188.496.841.65%8.08%0.71
51TN17742.29%1.17B.81A.151.66%7.75%0.73

736072.71%1.38G.09H.84-1.59.27%-0.62

Amaryllis (1000+ posts)    Sun Feb-20-05 06:13 AM
Response to Reply #1
17. I was told by someone who knows how central tabulator manipulation works,

that if they only counted precincts, and not counties, and they did only count precints, that they wouldn’t find the problems. He said they have to count entire counties to find the discrepancies, not just individual precincts, and if they had done this, the result could have been quite different.

All this angst, words flying through the invisible world of the internet, accusations heaped upon counter-accusations. And all of it is pointless since NONE of you are willing to get out of your house and your little world to fight for your country. Little chattering monkey tribes hanging in different trees throwing pine cones at one another won’t stop the tiger from eating all of you when you decide to come down out of the trees. And the tigers are out and hungry.
The people of the Ukraine were willing to take to the streets, battle with cops, get thrown in jail, lose their jobs (if they had one), die if necessary, FIGHT the corrupt government that was taking control of their lives. YOU WON’T.
Why? We’re afraid. We’re afraid to lose what we have though we’re losing it anyway. This country is ruled by fear, and has been for many decades. Fear of communism though there never has been a communist country, just conservative dictators like what we’ve got started here now.
Fear of prison (if you’ve ever been there you know).
Fear of cops and government officials and what they can do to us because life is temporary and none of us want to live it in abject misery.
Fear of poverty and losing the little dribbles the rich leave you, but that we all should get used to since the economics of this country are reverting to pre-1930’s rich vs. poor, and some of you are old enough to remember granny talking about the depression and how bad it really was rather than white-washed histories.
Americans are soft. Baby-butt soft, squishy little bunny rabbit soft. Our big tough 200 year old military machine in Iraq with all their techno killing machines are soft and getting the shit beat out of them by people from a 7,000 year old culture who think REALLY long-term rather than quick profits. Same mindset beat the shit out of my generation in ‘Nam.
Why do you think that a tiny little group of wealthy sociopathic men can take over a country of 285,000,000 people? It’s happened all over the world at different times. 1930’s Germany is the most recent and well-studied.
Sure, there are a large group of ignorant “voters” that are un & under-educated (and bush cuts education to the bone to continue this process) to exercise their gray matter between their ears past the propaganda delivered through the conservative media, which is where most of us get our “news.”
But the biggest problem is FEAR. We’re afraid of these people, they are mean and scary and will kill you (literally & figuratively) if it suits their ideology to do so.
What’s it going to take to change this outlook? Poverty, general widespread poverty that drops a huge percentage of the population into the gutter. Abject teeth-rotting, stomach swelling, cardboard hut poverty. That’s what it took before in this country and other parts of the world (Ukraine again comes to mind, those people were broke, jobless, and couldn’t feed their kids).
But cheer up! This country’s economics is dropping like a swatted fly, your jobs are going overseas like a fire sale at the local dollar store, the vaunted US dollar is busy finding a new route through the floor, the “stock market” is a joke and another rich man’s swindle on anyone dumb enough to “invest”, the military gets $500,000,000,000 to kill people in other countries that our esteemed leaders don’t like or no longer have a use for (think Saddam, Noreiga, or bush’s little family buddie Osama, the US gov’ment financed/trained/armed superpower killer, scourge of the USSR), while every program thought up and designed to help human beings-some work, some don’t but there are those in this country that see a bigger picture-gets scrapped in favor of fascist corporations and the wealthy who own & run them.
I’d have to say that, all in all, there will be a major change, a country-shaking change, coming in the next 10-15 years. Possibly and probably sooner judging from reading many past political, economic, & historical books. It’s going to get LOTS worse. Many reading this, both conservative and progressive, will be on the streets in the coming decade, stealing to eat. You WILL lose your job if you haven’t already, you WILL lose your car and your house and your family and your teeth and your health and your friends. Don’t laugh, your granny or great-granny knew a reality that you are going to learn.
Get out of debt, pay off the mortgage, cancel the car loan, unload your credit cards. Do it now as quickly as possible. Better to live on the cheap now than live on the nasty dirty streets later.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topics&f forum=203

Ack I don’t know why that won’t give you access.

Go here
http://www.democraticunderground.com/]

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2004 Election Results and Discussion

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Historyreader,

You are right - but I do have some faith. There have been days when I didn’t, but today I do. Thank you SO much for that post though. It needed to be said.

try this (GADS this shouldn’t be so hard!)

http://www.democraticundergound.com

and then follow the above directions.

3RD TIME IS THE CHARM.

Good lord. The above is not the correct link. Try THIS one

http://democraticunderground.com

We cant show them the light because they dont want to see it. Much easier to ignore it and more fun to throw it in our faces. They’ve learned it well. The sooner we understand the mentality the better. The more we expose it the more they come to places like this to boast and laud the hypocrisy of it. This is how they are and this is what they do. From the top down. And I dont believe they are all bad, the republicans. But some of them here, show themselves very completely. I do wonder why they feel they must prove themselves right. We arent going to change these folks or what is in their heart. We can change how we react.
Teresa

I agree with you Teresa. All of it.

Quite frankly my stomach turns every time I hear someone call a republican a “repug” or “rethug”. The fact of the matter is, the Republicans lost too. The facists won. The Republican party is not the party it was. It is the most big government in your face party you can find. True Republicans should be horrified (and I know quite a few who are).

Bush, Rove, Delay, Frist, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and the other fascists are the Republican party. They are ruining our country right now. Yet it turns your stomach to hear some of us call them repugs and rethugs. Why? Would you prefer we just call them fascists? That’s what they are.
So, you know some true Republicans. What is a true Republican in your mind? The Republican party of our lifetime has been the party of big government, massive growth of the military industrial complex, fiscal irresponsibility, tax deferrals, massive corporate welfare, and no regulation of business abuses of labor law, antitrust law, and environmental laws. In other words, they are only against big government if it regulates their precious corporations or cuts into their profits. Or, if big government helps the poor or the middle class, they are against it. So, true Republicans are probably thrilled with the current state of affairs under this one party (Republican) government.
I have no great love for the Democratic party either. Both major parties have failed the people. The Democrats have only recently started to speak out against Bush but they have been complicit with the MSM in failing to expose the lies and massive corruption of the Bush administration.
I know many good people who mistakenly consider themselves Republicans. They are not really Republicans but they have bought the lies about the so-called liberal media and liberals in general and are anti-Democrat. Like so many Democrats, they identify with a certain party because of their opposition to the other party. These good people do not seem to comprehend the true nature of the real Republican party.
So, when we call these fascists Repugs or Rethugs, we are talking about the Repugs occupying our government. And, I am sure you agree that the Bush White House and the ruling party in Congress are REPUGnant.

No, I DO agree with you - but I DON’T agree that calling ALL Republicans repugs and rethugs is helpful. If you’re referring to the facists running (ruining) the Country, have at it.

I too am not married to the Dem party. Both major parties work for the corporations, however I believe in what the Democratic party used to stand for and I am working to have it stand for that again (as are many - www.pdamerica.org ). I hope Republicans who believe in what their party used to stand for do something similar about taking back their party.

The problem you are talking about is the lack of readily available FACTUAL information being widely distributed and the almost total control of all forms of public access to that information. Stalin had it down in the old USSR, Hitler’s people were really good with the same control, and the bushistas are probably even better at it. Nothing is going to change in this country without a radical change in the ownership and investigative reporting of our major media. Expect that anytime soon?
I too know many good people who call themselves Republican, Christian, etc. and all of them are in total support of the bush regime because THEY DON’T KNOW ANY BETTER! Any item that manages to come out of the stranglehold on public sources that shows the corruption inherent in the federal government is immediately rendered meaningless by an incredibly effecient propaganda machine that is in place.
How do you fight that? For years we’ve all heard the lie “liberal bias in the news,” to the point where it’s become the standard refrain to deny any information against our rulers. At the same time the media has been completely bought out by five major corporations, local papers, small radio stations, all owned and controlled by rabid conservative corporations/fascists (two words with the same meaning) who continue to pay politicians of both major parties to receive more controlling interest in what people read and hear. And the people, bless their blank little brains, want to hear this. It’s easier to live with yourself when you’re constantly told god is on your side, you’re a morally correct person in thought, etc etc. How do you change ignorance when the ignorant WANT to be that way? You can’t.
So we do it in little ways. I e-mail articles to these friends (yes, they are because I like them as people and can see their hearts hidden inside), talk and converse without accusing them of stupidity because they aren’t stupid-though I do think they are ignorant and blinded by ideology and religon. Don’t stop trying, and don’t let the pompous fools who crow about “winning” over those nasty liberals while their jobs and lives are trampled by their own leaders get you down. Stupid is as stupid does.

Historyreader, you summed it up beautifully and perfectly. You are 100% correct.

On the other hand, if you voted for the fascists running this country, then what are you? Bush voters cannot legitimately claim they did not know how repugnant and thuggish this Republican government was and is. While the MSM provides them with a partial excuse, Bush voters were either intentionally blind to the lies and corruption or they voted for this repugnant thug with full knowledge of his crimes and corruption. Remember Hitler was elected too.
We need to start calling a thug a thug, a liar a liar, and a neo-fascist a neo-fascist. I see no reason to be nice to them as they are illegally occupying the white house.
Over the years, these repugs have succeeded in convincing people, even some Democrats, that liberal is a bad word. It’s time for us to use blunt words to expose the truth about Republicans and Conservatives so they will be ashamed of the fact that those labels stand for fiscal irresponsibility, lies, cheating, hypocrisy, warmongering, and cruelty.
Have we already forgotten the nasty lies these repugs told about John Kerry? Kerry tried to be nice and ignore it and what did it get him and us? 4 more years of Bush. Were those lies helpful? Yes, in giving us 4 more years of Bush.
Kerry should have called those Sleazeboat liars out and accused them of lying for Bush to their faces. Kerry would have destroyed Bush if he had taken the same courageous anti-war stance he took on Vietnam. Kerry was right then and he would have been right to oppose this war. Instead he listened to his consultants who told him to avoid directly opposing the war and focus on the economy. He was too nice and he was afraid to call Bush a liar.
So, being nice to these repugs has not been helpful. Apparently, about half of the voters are not paying attention or they only pay attention to repugs like the Sleazeboat liars. Maybe they will pay attention if we speak up and call the repugs on their despicable words and actions. Being nice hasn’t worked.

//Have we already forgotten the nasty lies these repugs told about John Kerry? Kerry tried to be nice and ignore it and what did it get him and us? 4 more years of Bush. Were those lies helpful? Yes, in giving us 4 more years of Bush.//

Eem, no, Kerry won. Bush stole 2004, just as he did 2000.

Gore 2000 repeat voters + huge Democratic new voter registration in 2004 (Dems 57%, Repubs 41%) + huge jump of Nader voters to Kerry = a 4 to 8 million vote margin for Kerry that inexplicably disappeared on election day. (—2nd report by Dr. Steven Freeman.)

This margin was virtually unsurmountable—by Bush—as every other statistic shows:

Kerry won both the national and state exit polls by a margin of 3%. (USCountvotes report, by 9 Ph.D.‘s, and all other expert reports.)

Impossible skew to Bush in the official results vs. the exit polls, unaccountable by any conceivable bias in the exit polls—conservative odds of 1 in 10 million against the Bush win (confirmed by numerous Ph.D.‘s and expert statisticians putting their reputations on the line to say so publicly in peer reviewed reports, including the USCountvotes report).

The UCCountvotes report, by 9 Ph.D.‘s at leading universities, also indicates that Kerry’s margin was even larger than the exit poll 3%, since the exit polls were actually skewed to favor Bush (the exact opposite of what was reported in the news!).

Skew to Bush in electronic voting vs. other methods in No. Carolina (—Democratic Underground analysis)

Skew to Bush in electronic voting vs. other methods in FLA. (—UC Berkeley statistics dept, study headed by Dr. Michael Haut)

Skew to Bush in electronic voting vs. other methods at the precinct level (USCountvotes report, by 9 Ph.D.‘s).

Secret source code in the central electronic vote tabulators, held as proprietary info. by BushCon companies (two companies, Diebold and ES&S, one run by Bush-Cheney campaign chair in Ohio, the other by a billionaire rightwing nut), no paper trail, and no recount or audit possible, in a third of the voting machines in the country—all conditions for fraud insisted upon by Republican politicians and electronic voting machine company salesmen.

Electronic voting machines proven to be extremely insecure, unreliable and hackable.

All reported vote suppression incidents were perpetrated by Republican election officials and Republican operatives against Democratic voters, mostly minorities. One investigator estimates that 2 million minority votes were suppressed. (Greg Palast )

57,000 incidents of machine malfunction or vote suppression lodged with Congress—virtually all favoring Bush and hurting Kerry. (John Conyers)

Many reports of touchscreen electronic voting machines changing Kerry votes to Bush votes, and none the other way around—huge odds against this.

The intense BushCon efforts to skew the election in such baldfaced, illegal ways in Ohio, Florida and several other key states indicates their fear of Kerry’s big new voter registration advantage and the enthusiasm of the grass roots campaign. It was looking like a Kerry blowout—so they had to use every fraud plan they had in place.

Bush’s approval ratings prior to the election were dismal - hovering around 50% - not possible for a sitting president to be elected with such low approval ratings, according to highly reputed pollster, Zogby.

Bush’s approval ratings today remain dismal - hovering around 50% - dipping to 48% on his Inauguration Day!—an unprecedented “vote of no confidence” by the American people in a recently “re-elected” president.

Americans greatly disapprove of Bush’s major policies (nearly 60% disapprove of the Iraq war, now, today—and 63% disapprove of torture under any circumstances).

————-

And here is the documentation.

Exit poll analysis: Astronomical odds against the Bush win.

Dr. Steven Freeman: http://www.appliedresearch.us/sf/epdiscrep.htm

Dr. Ron Baiman: (PDF file) http://www.freepress.org/images/departments/997.pdf

Dr. Webb Mealy: http://www.selftest.net/redshift.htm

Jonathan Simon:http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/HL0411/S00142.htm

Nine Ph.D’s from leading universities call for investigation of 2004 Election
http://uscountvotes.org/ucvAnalysis/US/USCountVotes_Re_Mitofsky-Edison.pdf
- or - http://tinyurl.com/6e2yu (PDF—link may not work using some download accelerators)

Florida: 130,000 to 230,000 phantom votes for Bush—paper vs. electronic voting: Dr. Michael Haut & UC Berkeley statistics team: http://ucdata.berkeley.edu

Democratic Underground (ignatzmouse): (North Carolina: absentee ballot vs. electronic, inexplicable 9% edge to Bush in electronic: http://tinyurl.com/52dzk

Democratic Underground (TruthIsAll): “To believe Bush won, you have to believe…”

Part 1 http://tinyurl.com/4pucs

Part 2 http://tinyurl.com/4gqg5

Part 3 http://tinyurl.com/6okrm

Democratic Underground (TruthIsAll): The Time Zone Discrepancy http://tinyurl.com/6u3cg

Johns Hopkins report on insecurity of electronic voting: http://tinyurl.com/6fwug

Easy demo of the how insecure voting machines are: http://www.chuckherrin.com/hackthevote.htm

“Myth Breakers: Facts About Electronic Elections” (2nd edition): www.votersunite.org

Ohio vote suppression: www.bpac.info/Votefraud/keyfacts.html

Documentation of widespread machine fraud and dirty tricks in over 20 states: http://www.flcv.com/ussumall.html

Greg Palast, “Kerry Won”: http://www.tompaine.com/articles/kerry_won.php

In progress compilations of various articles and materials on 2004 Election Fraud:

http://tinyurl.com/5tcyk

http://tinyurl.com/5rhsm

I do believe we shouldnt call all republicans bad, I also believe in calling a spade a spade. bush and company have earned their reputation and they have earned what they get. Some of the people I work with are republicans and I have to get along with them, which I do most of the time. We disagree greatly on many fundamental things but I can find the inherent good in them, no matter how badly they have misjudged their leader. And they have misjudged him. Most of my republican friends just dont want to believe the things we do, its too hard and I guess down right painful to be reminded of how wrong you and they are. I have to believe in the end what goes around will come around, full circle. In the mean time we should continue the debate and argue for what we believe is right. Four years is a long time.
Teresa

I agree Kerry really won but who is in the White House? You don’t have to convince me.
But Kerry was too nice. I was so mad at him when he conceded on 11-3-04. I live in Ohio and I know this election was stolen. Blackwell did not even try to hide it! I voted absentee because I worked as a Democratic poll challenger. Kerry conceded before my vote was even counted.
Kerry legitimized Bush’s election theft. He should have screamed election fraud at the top of his lungs. Bush cheated in 2000 and in 2004. Gore also should have screamed election fraud and called GW Bush and Jeb Bush liars and cheaters. Instead he was nice and did not make an issue of the Bush coup.
The Democratic “leaders” were worried about being labeled sore “losers.” Who cares? The Repugs can and will call us anything they want but Kerry should have challenged the vote counts based on the exit polls and exposed the election fraud. Maybe then there would have been enough pressure to seize the voting machines and computers to ferret out the fraud. Those Ohio machines have still not been examined and it is probably too late as the evidence has been destroyed.
The majority of voters voted for Kerry. If they would have protested like Ukraine’s voters and with the backing of their candidate, then the truth would have been found and Bush would be back at the ranch. Instead Kerry was afraid to call Bush a liar and a cheater.
Make Bush deny that he lied, cheated, deserted, etc. If you don’t join the fray and accuse him of his many crimes, then he doesn’t have to deny that he lied, cheated, snorted, smoked, deserted, stole, and tortured. Make Bush explain why a gay male hooker using a fake name was being admitted to the White House on a daily basis. When Bush referred to his “man date,” we didn’t know he was referring to his boyfriend.
Stop being nice to these neo-fascists!

Forgive them father for they know not what they’ve done. Well, that’s what a few (very few) christians I know say. But what about those fascists that KNOW what they’ve done? How about the murderers this country has supported for fifty years? Or the Centro-American right-wing war criminals living in Florida granted easy access to citizenship by both parties in power? Clinton a liberal? Come on, get real. Can anyone name one freaking bill he signed in 8 years that didn’t help the wealthy get richer, or the corporations to get more control and less regulation? He signed Bush 1’s Nafta/Gatt!!!
It’s been going on a long time, getting worse as it goes with some steps back from the edge but always following the fall line down. Now we’re in it, waist deep and WE are going through the spasms of decline. It’s easy to strike out at anyone when you hurt so bad for the ideas your country was founded on and is losing.
Yes, call a fascist a fascist, don’t mince words with these criminals. Novak should be in prison for outing Valerie Plame, the whole top of the federal government should be standing in the dock of Neuremburg answering the questions of mass murder (as should bin Laden, Saddam, Saudia Arabia, and probably most of the leaders of the entire world). For those conservatives reading this, I suggest renting the old movie “Justice or Judgement at Neuremburg” and comparing the reasoning given by the Nazis to that given by the Bushiz. If there are any brain cells working, this old movie should shake and scare you to your conservative core.
Why is it the most vicious, violent, sociopathic behavior seems connected to those who call themselves conservatives? Stalin, Hitler, Saddam, Noreiga, Marcos, North Korea, China, Japan, history is full of conservative governments employing mass murder. Can anyone name (and substantiate) a liberal, progressive government that committed mass murder? I can’t, and I read a LOT!
Keeping trading information with the conservatives you know, give them things to read or watch that challenges their brains to think rather than stay a mushy ball susceptable to propaganda.
And expect this country to get worse than you can imagine. Have to fall down before you can get yourself up. The USA is falling, and maybe we have to wait to pick up the pieces.

Our democracy being completely undermined is the root of all the evil being perpetrated by our “elected” officials.  And yes killing over 100,000 civilians in Iraq, making our air and water more toxic, our healthcare unaffordable, etc. is evil. Its just wrong and people need to realize its because we don’t have a democracy.  Bush lost in 2000, he lost in 2004, that’s the truth.  Until we establish a real democracy the few ignorant, uncaring and corrupt will continue to hinder global progress, they will continue to fuck things up against the conscience of the majority, who want peace, health, justice and equality. http://www.votermarch.org/

You really said a mouthful when you described how stubborn people are and will not change their opions about anything until tragedy strikes and it is to late.  And the trouble is that the ones who can least afford it are going to be hit with desaster first and then we will have a trickle up instead of a Nixon Trickle down theory.  I just wanted to punch holes in something when old Bush got in again.  True, Kerry wasn’t much better.  It still lays with kicking the old blood out of congress and keep getting new blood in there until they realize the average American people are going to take back their government and they better start listening to people who voted for them and their wants and don’t wants instead of big business and lining their own pockets.

Claire is right, calling Republicans “Repugs” or “rethugs” does not help the cause.  Even granting that the current Republican leadership is quite repugnant doesn’t justify using those terms.  Call them out when they lie or cheat, but don’t demean yourself by stooping to their level and calling them names.  In effect, you are saying anyone who voted Republican is a despicable liar, and, based on your earlier posts, I know you know that’s not true.  It doesn’t take much to see that you are not going to turn anyone towards the light if you block it with that kind of rhetoric.

On a separate note, any thoughts as to Gov. Schwarzegger’s plan to have an independent group redistrict California’s voting precincts?  If both the Dems and Repubs think it a mistake, it seems like it might be a pretty good idea…

There are too many intelligent posts which makes me think that someone is editing.
One of the questions on the exit poll was supported by 22 per cent of the respondents which said that “moral” issues were at the core of their vote.  I am guessing but then that is the only information I got that the press chose to extract from the exit polls.  eric swan

Yea that had me puzzled - the exit polls were wrong (according to the press) but Bush won on moral issues? Which is it? Huh??

WOW…If half of this stuff is true…..I just dont understand how this has gone on for so long? WHERE IS THE OUTRAGE?WHERE ARE THE PROTESTS?

Perhaps we can start an effort to get this subject into the spotlight in the European press.  If it becomes well known in Europe, then maybe Bush will be treated more like the illegitimate fraudulent leader that he is.  Imagine how leaders would respond to his declarations about “spreading democracy” and “the free world” as he tries to get buy-in on the next pre-emptive attack if it were common knowledge that he is the world’s number one enemy to freedom and democracy.

A couple of weeks ago, Rumsfeld almost had to skip a forum in Germany for fear that Germany would arrest him for war crimes.  At the last minute Germany announced it would not press charges.  If the news of this fraudulent election were loudly covered in Europe and the exit poll data studied by European statisticians and publised, maybe the German government would not have caved.

My interest in channeling this to Europe is that I don’t think the US media would dare speak up.

Kurt I liked what you just said.  Does anyone have any links to foreign countries that would help get our message about this republican adminstration in front of the eye of the right people.  I would be glad to add my e-mails to the rest of yours.  If we can get enough people to do this they would sit up and listen maybe.  Way to go Kurt.