Page 1 of 1 pages
Dear Sir-
1-Love Child (I’m jealous myself-don’t think the girlfriend would appreciate me wondering around tapping others but whatever…). Just please, as an example of leadership, please provide for the fatherless child.
2- Tax returns? This is the best one. Stay at the Four Seasons all you want. Just let everybody know about it. Open the books - It’s pretty easy buddy. Or you could be a closed door repub like Cheney.
3- Statements you have made regarding MLKjr and Farrakhan. I have many quotes to keep posting.
Posted by you'll delete again on Mar 25, 2005 at 12:21 AM
Getting private enterprise out of public elections would be a good start.
Posted by Lefty on Mar 25, 2005 at 2:43 PM
“...the winners lose and the losers win…” Criminy sakes, Jesse. It really gets depressing to hear a man of the cloth spew out barking moonbat conspiracy theories. You’re as much of a clown as when Jerry Falwell spewed forth all that “Clinton Chronicles” crapola. Your 15 minutes of fame are up.
Posted by Scott on Mar 26, 2005 at 3:10 PM
These last three posts were so atriculate and cunning, especially ‘you’ll delete again’, that I felt congratulations were in order. Thanks guys!
Posted by poopooface on Mar 27, 2005 at 4:21 PM
Hmmm. . . are my tax dollars paying for these comments?
Posted by areyouforreal? on Mar 28, 2005 at 7:23 AM
Hey Scott.Simple fact.Gore got more votes than Bush did in 2000.Ingnorance may be bliss for some but I will try and stay a little informed before I spout off on the web.
Posted by Paul Leslie on Mar 28, 2005 at 1:29 PM
Hey Paul,
Al Gore did not get more votes than Bush. If he had he would have been president from 2001 through 2005.
The citizens do not vote directly for president. The electoral college votes for the president. We live in a representative REPUBLIC. Republic means that we elect representatives to vote on the issues which must be decided upon. We elect Congressional representation directly. The United States has never had a policy of direct democracy when electing the President. But of course this is no surprise to you, you great stranger to ignorance.
As to Jesse. Well, the idea sounds fine to me. Let’s discuss. And while we’re at it, let’s be sure to enumerate the responsibilities of voters as well. I contend that if a vote is not counted because the voter did not fulfill the responsibilites, (which have yet to be discussed) their rights have not been violated.
Posted by Bee Jiggity on Mar 30, 2005 at 11:15 AM
Hey Bee,
You republicans are masters of the false premise aren’t you! The fact is not that if Gore got more votes he would be president, but that, if Gore got more votes, we will never know because 1) Jeb Bush helped cheat on the vote count in Florida (and cheated again in 2004), and in addition, 2) the USSC issued an unconstitutional ONE TIME opinion, stopping the recount being conducted in compliance with Florida law.
Try again, Machiavelli breath.
Posted by Lefty on Mar 30, 2005 at 5:02 PM
Bee raises a good point regarding voter’s responsibilities, one that shouldn’t be discounted for being stated by an assumed Republican.
‘Qui tacet consentire’—-Silence gives consent.
The old maxim of law still applies. Realizing it or not, that 50% or so that refuse to participate in elections have nevertheless cast an unwitting vote. Had Al Gore or John Kerry made any kind of effort to engage that 50% by presenting an authentic challenge to the status quo, rather than merely ‘rebranding’ the Democrats as pseudo-Republicans, things might have turned out differently, too.
Hempshackle
Posted by Hempshackle on Mar 31, 2005 at 12:40 AM
Hey Scott again.
More PEOPLE voted for Gore than Bush in 2000.This inability to accept reality is becoming pathological.The electoral college is not an elected body and thus has nothing to do with your point of living in a representative REPUBLIC.The fact that you are so eager to have peoples vote disqualified is so obviously that these people disagree with you politcaly.If you had cared to look into the issue at all before spouting off (ignorance again) you would find that many people had their vote not counted for no good reason.We could just as easily say that anyone who posts on the web under the name Bee Jigity should not have their vote counted as they failed to fulfill their responsibilities.Then we’ll see where you come down on this REPUBLIC vs. democracy issue.The point is that every effort should be expended in this country to count every vote but the opposite has been happening with the sad support of people like Bee who dont realy beleive in representitive democracy anyway.
Posted by Paul Leslie on Apr 4, 2005 at 12:25 PM
Paul,
Try not to be upset that others had a more complete civics education than you.
To help rectify the situation, go out and buy yourself a copy of the Constitution of the United States of America. Then read Article II, Section 1, as well as Amendment 12.
Please then come back tell us what part of ‘The Electors shall meet in their respective states and vote by ballot for President and Vice-President…’
Such is the process of operation for the system of government known as a republic as compared to that of a democracy.
Ever wonder why school kids recite the words “and to the Republic for which it stands…” instead of “...and to the democracy…”?
Posted by al b dunn on Apr 5, 2005 at 8:57 AM
b dunn.
You would be right in assuming that my “civics” education was anything but complete.Sadly it appears your “logics” classes were equaly lacking.
The point of my post was to respond to Scotts post and I simply stated that the electoral college is not an elected body.I did not state, as you incompletely suggest I did, that the electoral collage does not ultimately choose(vote for)the president.I know full well it does with or without any great civics education.
My main point is that if you are going to have an election where the majority of the people who vote loose out to the electoral college then you better make damn sure that all their votes were counted and fairly.
I would just comment that it seems strange this new found love with the REPUBLIC when it suits you.I wonder what it would take to have b dunn admit that we also live in a democracy.When he votes for city council,sheriff,governor,congress person,mayor,etc… does he expect his vote to be given to an electoral college.
If we want our president elected by the supreme court or anyone but “we the people” then we can just stay with what we have but this is a subject for a different time.
Posted by Paul Leslie on Apr 6, 2005 at 6:47 PM
To extend to notion of voter responsibility, it should be stated that simply arriving at the poles to votes is not enough.
The voter has the responsibility to know and understand what it is he is voting for.
Here’s an example, it is the voter’s responsibility to know that during presidential elections, citizens do not vote directly for the President and Vice-president. The law in the United States is that the President and Vice-president are elected by an indirect popular election. The votes cast are for proposed electors and not the candidates themselves.
Electors then vote for the two offices. These votes are sent under seal to the president of the United States Senate and the Administrator of General Services in Washington, D.C. During a joint session in the House of Representatives, the sealed certificates (votes) are opened. The process unfolds from there and this is what is known as the Electoral College (in brief).
Let us make the dangerous assumption that Paul is of sufficient age to vote in general elections. One would hope that he exercise his responsibility to understand his participation in the electoral process that has existed and been in effect since June 21, 1788.
There is another point. We have a mix of systems in our country. Paul confuses suffrage for democracy. Suffrage is everyone’s right to vote. Democracy is everyone voting en masse on a subject or thing. Republican representation (not the political party, Paul) is the process of electing a representative group of individuals to decide matters for the whole. Various forms of the afore mentioned exist throughout our nation.
Alluding to your example, the city council is a form of republican representation—-a mini-republic. Councilmen are elected to make the communities decisions. That differs the town meeting. Town hall meetings, such as those common in smaller New England towns, are true democracies—-total representation, every town citizen has the opportunity to cast their vote on issues raised.
What we should do, Paul, is understand our system. If you are not satisfied with its functioning, then there are means within the system for you to attempt to make changes. Before doing so, might one suggest you invest a little more time learning the intricate of that system.
Posted by al b dunn on Apr 7, 2005 at 4:23 AM
Bernard Shaw wrote:
“If the lesser mind could measure the greater as a footrule can measure a pyramid, there would be finality in universal suffrage. As it is, the political problem remains unsolved.
Democracy substitutes election by the incompetent many for an appointment by the corrupt few.
Democratic republics can no more dispense with national idols than monarchies with public functionaries.
Government presents only one problem: the discovery of a trustworthy anthropometric method.”
—-Man and Superman
Posted by John Tanner on Apr 7, 2005 at 7:48 AM
To extend the notion of voter responsibility, it should be stated that simply arriving at the poles to vote is not enough.
The voter has the responsibility to know and understand what it is he is voting for.
Here’s an example, it is the voter’s responsibility to know that during presidential elections, citizens do not vote directly for the President and Vice-president. The law in the United States is that the President and Vice-president are elected by an indirect popular election. The votes cast are for proposed electors and not the candidates themselves.
Electors then vote for the two offices. These votes are sent under seal to the president of the United States Senate and the Administrator of General Services in Washington, D.C. During a joint session in the House of Representatives, the sealed certificates (votes) are opened. The process unfolds from there and this is what is known as the Electoral College (in brief).
Let us make the dangerous assumption that Paul is of sufficient age to vote in general elections. It would be expected that he exercise his responsibility to understand the electoral process and his role in it—-a process, it should be noted, that has existed and been in effect since June 21, 1788.
There is another point. We have a mix of systems in our country. Paul confuses suffrage for democracy. Suffrage is everyone’s right to vote. Democracy is everyone voting en masse on a subject or thing. Republican representation (not the political party, Paul) is the process of electing a representative group of individuals to decide matters for the whole. Various forms of the afore mentioned exist throughout our nation.
Alluding to your example, the city council is a form of republican representation—-a mini-republic. Councilmen are elected to make the community’s decisions. That differs the town meeting. Town hall meetings, such as those common in smaller New England towns, are true democracies—-total representation, every town citizen has the opportunity to cast their vote on issues raised.
What we should do, Paul, is understand our system. If you are not satisfied with its functioning, then there are means within the system for you to attempt to make changes. Before doing so, might one suggest you invest a little more time learning the intricacies of that system.
Posted by al b dunn on Apr 7, 2005 at 10:04 AM
Do we really need to fix anything here or are we playing a shell game. In the last few weeks before a national election we see a process similar to a cattle round-up looking for voters, expect problems.
Just before the last election I moved to Maryland. Because of travel I had to cast an absentee ballot. I called ahead and went the next day to cast my ballot. After just dealing with several government offices changing car tags, drivers license and the like, I showed up with about 130 different forms of ID. Guess what…didn’t need it. None, zip, nada. I was shocked. Here I was voting for the leadership of our country and nobody cared I was who I said I was. Maryland is a very liberal state and I could smell the Democratic Party all over this process.
Our right to vote is the most important right we have as Americans. Just as we fight to give everyone the opportunity to cast a valid vote, we should just as aggressively prevent abuse.
*…4 and 6 million votes were not counted in 2000 because many states had voting rights irregularities similar to what occurred in Florida.*
What exactly is a “voting rights irregularity”. If you incorrectly filled out your ballot, it shouldn’t be counted. If you showed up and are not registered to vote your vote is NOT counted. I believe this is all about creating a voting system like we have in Maryland so a certain party that is loosing election after election can have the power they believe they so rightfully deserve. This is not what America is about.
Posted by Bill Martin on Apr 7, 2005 at 12:03 PM
First of all since whatever I post I seem to get a lecture about the electoral college or republicanism let me say I learned about all that in High School about 18 years ago. I thought the electoral college was a stupid idea then, I do now and I could go to school for the next twenty years learning the intricacies of the system and it would still be a stupid idea. In expressing my opinion that the electoral college was a bad idea since it went against the idea of one man one vote the common response was always that it would be so rare for the popular vote to come out different than the E.C. vote there was no reason to change the system. So much for that.
Secondly, I do not confuse suffrage for democracy. Since the two are not mutually opposing ideas or in any way counter to each other I would have no reason to confuse them.The two go together just fine. In order to have democracy (everyone voting en masse on a subject or thing) it would be necessary to have some suffrage (everybodys right to vote).
Third. You seem to have missed the point of my example about voting for city council, mayer, sheriff etc…The point was that these elections are one man = one vote. Thus democracy. Of course once these people get elected they make decisions for the rest of us. That is just obvious and is what representative government means.
Fourth. b dunn. I don’t really know how you meant your first sentences to the effect that it is not enough to simply show up at the polls to vote. That the voter has a responsibility to know what he is voting for. If you meant this in a sort of idealistic , the way things should be , kind of sense than I wholeheartedly agree. If that would happen there is no way Bush would have been elected. If, however you mean this in a legalistic sense then you are way off. It is and should be enough for any legal U.S. citizen who is of age and shows up at their polling place (as well as meeting some other requirements which are the stuff of a whole other discussion) to have their vote counted. If b dunn is seriously saying that knowledge of the electoral process is required to have your vote count then by his own logic he should not have his vote counted as he is wrong on this issue. If not then we got no beef on this one issue
Posted by Paul Leslie on Apr 7, 2005 at 6:35 PM
What I am saying is that an uninformed vote might as well be no vote since both threaten the legitimacy of true democracy. Only through informed participation can democracy function effectively. Anything less is meaningless and amounts to jingoism for a system that rubber stamps the staus quo.
Posted by al b dunn on Apr 8, 2005 at 9:25 AM
So Jesse,
Why were you in Florida snuggliing up to the bu$h brothers in their effort to stick their nose into family business & continuing to make a freak show out of poor Terri Shiavo’s body.
Posted by Maggie Richards on Apr 8, 2005 at 3:28 PM
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Reader Comments
Dear Sir-
1-Love Child (I’m jealous myself-don’t think the girlfriend would appreciate me wondering around tapping others but whatever…). Just please, as an example of leadership, please provide for the fatherless child.
2- Tax returns? This is the best one. Stay at the Four Seasons all you want. Just let everybody know about it. Open the books - It’s pretty easy buddy. Or you could be a closed door repub like Cheney.
3- Statements you have made regarding MLKjr and Farrakhan. I have many quotes to keep posting.
Getting private enterprise out of public elections would be a good start.
“...the winners lose and the losers win…” Criminy sakes, Jesse. It really gets depressing to hear a man of the cloth spew out barking moonbat conspiracy theories. You’re as much of a clown as when Jerry Falwell spewed forth all that “Clinton Chronicles” crapola. Your 15 minutes of fame are up.
These last three posts were so atriculate and cunning, especially ‘you’ll delete again’, that I felt congratulations were in order. Thanks guys!
Hmmm. . . are my tax dollars paying for these comments?
Hey Scott.Simple fact.Gore got more votes than Bush did in 2000.Ingnorance may be bliss for some but I will try and stay a little informed before I spout off on the web.
Hey Paul,
Al Gore did not get more votes than Bush. If he had he would have been president from 2001 through 2005.
The citizens do not vote directly for president. The electoral college votes for the president. We live in a representative REPUBLIC. Republic means that we elect representatives to vote on the issues which must be decided upon. We elect Congressional representation directly. The United States has never had a policy of direct democracy when electing the President. But of course this is no surprise to you, you great stranger to ignorance.
As to Jesse. Well, the idea sounds fine to me. Let’s discuss. And while we’re at it, let’s be sure to enumerate the responsibilities of voters as well. I contend that if a vote is not counted because the voter did not fulfill the responsibilites, (which have yet to be discussed) their rights have not been violated.
Hey Bee,
You republicans are masters of the false premise aren’t you! The fact is not that if Gore got more votes he would be president, but that, if Gore got more votes, we will never know because 1) Jeb Bush helped cheat on the vote count in Florida (and cheated again in 2004), and in addition, 2) the USSC issued an unconstitutional ONE TIME opinion, stopping the recount being conducted in compliance with Florida law.
Try again, Machiavelli breath.
Bee raises a good point regarding voter’s responsibilities, one that shouldn’t be discounted for being stated by an assumed Republican.
‘Qui tacet consentire’—-Silence gives consent.
The old maxim of law still applies. Realizing it or not, that 50% or so that refuse to participate in elections have nevertheless cast an unwitting vote. Had Al Gore or John Kerry made any kind of effort to engage that 50% by presenting an authentic challenge to the status quo, rather than merely ‘rebranding’ the Democrats as pseudo-Republicans, things might have turned out differently, too.
Hempshackle
Hey Scott again.
More PEOPLE voted for Gore than Bush in 2000.This inability to accept reality is becoming pathological.The electoral college is not an elected body and thus has nothing to do with your point of living in a representative REPUBLIC.The fact that you are so eager to have peoples vote disqualified is so obviously that these people disagree with you politcaly.If you had cared to look into the issue at all before spouting off (ignorance again) you would find that many people had their vote not counted for no good reason.We could just as easily say that anyone who posts on the web under the name Bee Jigity should not have their vote counted as they failed to fulfill their responsibilities.Then we’ll see where you come down on this REPUBLIC vs. democracy issue.The point is that every effort should be expended in this country to count every vote but the opposite has been happening with the sad support of people like Bee who dont realy beleive in representitive democracy anyway.
Paul,
Try not to be upset that others had a more complete civics education than you.
To help rectify the situation, go out and buy yourself a copy of the Constitution of the United States of America. Then read Article II, Section 1, as well as Amendment 12.
Please then come back tell us what part of ‘The Electors shall meet in their respective states and vote by ballot for President and Vice-President…’
Such is the process of operation for the system of government known as a republic as compared to that of a democracy.
Ever wonder why school kids recite the words “and to the Republic for which it stands…” instead of “...and to the democracy…”?
b dunn.
You would be right in assuming that my “civics” education was anything but complete.Sadly it appears your “logics” classes were equaly lacking.
The point of my post was to respond to Scotts post and I simply stated that the electoral college is not an elected body.I did not state, as you incompletely suggest I did, that the electoral collage does not ultimately choose(vote for)the president.I know full well it does with or without any great civics education.
My main point is that if you are going to have an election where the majority of the people who vote loose out to the electoral college then you better make damn sure that all their votes were counted and fairly.
I would just comment that it seems strange this new found love with the REPUBLIC when it suits you.I wonder what it would take to have b dunn admit that we also live in a democracy.When he votes for city council,sheriff,governor,congress person,mayor,etc… does he expect his vote to be given to an electoral college.
If we want our president elected by the supreme court or anyone but “we the people” then we can just stay with what we have but this is a subject for a different time.
To extend to notion of voter responsibility, it should be stated that simply arriving at the poles to votes is not enough.
The voter has the responsibility to know and understand what it is he is voting for.
Here’s an example, it is the voter’s responsibility to know that during presidential elections, citizens do not vote directly for the President and Vice-president. The law in the United States is that the President and Vice-president are elected by an indirect popular election. The votes cast are for proposed electors and not the candidates themselves.
Electors then vote for the two offices. These votes are sent under seal to the president of the United States Senate and the Administrator of General Services in Washington, D.C. During a joint session in the House of Representatives, the sealed certificates (votes) are opened. The process unfolds from there and this is what is known as the Electoral College (in brief).
Let us make the dangerous assumption that Paul is of sufficient age to vote in general elections. One would hope that he exercise his responsibility to understand his participation in the electoral process that has existed and been in effect since June 21, 1788.
There is another point. We have a mix of systems in our country. Paul confuses suffrage for democracy. Suffrage is everyone’s right to vote. Democracy is everyone voting en masse on a subject or thing. Republican representation (not the political party, Paul) is the process of electing a representative group of individuals to decide matters for the whole. Various forms of the afore mentioned exist throughout our nation.
Alluding to your example, the city council is a form of republican representation—-a mini-republic. Councilmen are elected to make the communities decisions. That differs the town meeting. Town hall meetings, such as those common in smaller New England towns, are true democracies—-total representation, every town citizen has the opportunity to cast their vote on issues raised.
What we should do, Paul, is understand our system. If you are not satisfied with its functioning, then there are means within the system for you to attempt to make changes. Before doing so, might one suggest you invest a little more time learning the intricate of that system.
Bernard Shaw wrote:
“If the lesser mind could measure the greater as a footrule can measure a pyramid, there would be finality in universal suffrage. As it is, the political problem remains unsolved.
Democracy substitutes election by the incompetent many for an appointment by the corrupt few.
Democratic republics can no more dispense with national idols than monarchies with public functionaries.
Government presents only one problem: the discovery of a trustworthy anthropometric method.”
—-Man and Superman
To extend the notion of voter responsibility, it should be stated that simply arriving at the poles to vote is not enough.
The voter has the responsibility to know and understand what it is he is voting for.
Here’s an example, it is the voter’s responsibility to know that during presidential elections, citizens do not vote directly for the President and Vice-president. The law in the United States is that the President and Vice-president are elected by an indirect popular election. The votes cast are for proposed electors and not the candidates themselves.
Electors then vote for the two offices. These votes are sent under seal to the president of the United States Senate and the Administrator of General Services in Washington, D.C. During a joint session in the House of Representatives, the sealed certificates (votes) are opened. The process unfolds from there and this is what is known as the Electoral College (in brief).
Let us make the dangerous assumption that Paul is of sufficient age to vote in general elections. It would be expected that he exercise his responsibility to understand the electoral process and his role in it—-a process, it should be noted, that has existed and been in effect since June 21, 1788.
There is another point. We have a mix of systems in our country. Paul confuses suffrage for democracy. Suffrage is everyone’s right to vote. Democracy is everyone voting en masse on a subject or thing. Republican representation (not the political party, Paul) is the process of electing a representative group of individuals to decide matters for the whole. Various forms of the afore mentioned exist throughout our nation.
Alluding to your example, the city council is a form of republican representation—-a mini-republic. Councilmen are elected to make the community’s decisions. That differs the town meeting. Town hall meetings, such as those common in smaller New England towns, are true democracies—-total representation, every town citizen has the opportunity to cast their vote on issues raised.
What we should do, Paul, is understand our system. If you are not satisfied with its functioning, then there are means within the system for you to attempt to make changes. Before doing so, might one suggest you invest a little more time learning the intricacies of that system.
Do we really need to fix anything here or are we playing a shell game. In the last few weeks before a national election we see a process similar to a cattle round-up looking for voters, expect problems.
Just before the last election I moved to Maryland. Because of travel I had to cast an absentee ballot. I called ahead and went the next day to cast my ballot. After just dealing with several government offices changing car tags, drivers license and the like, I showed up with about 130 different forms of ID. Guess what…didn’t need it. None, zip, nada. I was shocked. Here I was voting for the leadership of our country and nobody cared I was who I said I was. Maryland is a very liberal state and I could smell the Democratic Party all over this process.
Our right to vote is the most important right we have as Americans. Just as we fight to give everyone the opportunity to cast a valid vote, we should just as aggressively prevent abuse.
*…4 and 6 million votes were not counted in 2000 because many states had voting rights irregularities similar to what occurred in Florida.*
What exactly is a “voting rights irregularity”. If you incorrectly filled out your ballot, it shouldn’t be counted. If you showed up and are not registered to vote your vote is NOT counted. I believe this is all about creating a voting system like we have in Maryland so a certain party that is loosing election after election can have the power they believe they so rightfully deserve. This is not what America is about.
First of all since whatever I post I seem to get a lecture about the electoral college or republicanism let me say I learned about all that in High School about 18 years ago. I thought the electoral college was a stupid idea then, I do now and I could go to school for the next twenty years learning the intricacies of the system and it would still be a stupid idea. In expressing my opinion that the electoral college was a bad idea since it went against the idea of one man one vote the common response was always that it would be so rare for the popular vote to come out different than the E.C. vote there was no reason to change the system. So much for that.
Secondly, I do not confuse suffrage for democracy. Since the two are not mutually opposing ideas or in any way counter to each other I would have no reason to confuse them.The two go together just fine. In order to have democracy (everyone voting en masse on a subject or thing) it would be necessary to have some suffrage (everybodys right to vote).
Third. You seem to have missed the point of my example about voting for city council, mayer, sheriff etc…The point was that these elections are one man = one vote. Thus democracy. Of course once these people get elected they make decisions for the rest of us. That is just obvious and is what representative government means.
Fourth. b dunn. I don’t really know how you meant your first sentences to the effect that it is not enough to simply show up at the polls to vote. That the voter has a responsibility to know what he is voting for. If you meant this in a sort of idealistic , the way things should be , kind of sense than I wholeheartedly agree. If that would happen there is no way Bush would have been elected. If, however you mean this in a legalistic sense then you are way off. It is and should be enough for any legal U.S. citizen who is of age and shows up at their polling place (as well as meeting some other requirements which are the stuff of a whole other discussion) to have their vote counted. If b dunn is seriously saying that knowledge of the electoral process is required to have your vote count then by his own logic he should not have his vote counted as he is wrong on this issue. If not then we got no beef on this one issue
What I am saying is that an uninformed vote might as well be no vote since both threaten the legitimacy of true democracy. Only through informed participation can democracy function effectively. Anything less is meaningless and amounts to jingoism for a system that rubber stamps the staus quo.
So Jesse,
Why were you in Florida snuggliing up to the bu$h brothers in their effort to stick their nose into family business & continuing to make a freak show out of poor Terri Shiavo’s body.
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