Wake Up!

Washington's alarming foreign policy

By Chalmers Johnson

The Rubicon is a small stream in northern Italy just south of the city of Ravenna. During the prime of the Roman Republic, roughly the last two centuries B.C., it served as a northern boundary protecting the heartland of Italy and the city of [RETURN TO ARTICLE]

  • Reader Comments

     Page 3 of 4 pages  < 1 2 3 4 > 

    Matt Harris, I think your right, sounds just like j craig. He gets beat up from the free thinkers and has to change his name.

    United States Posted by brian on Apr 7, 2005 at 9:41 AM

    Take a look at this link if you doubt election fraud:

    http://itmanagement.earthweb.com/columns/executive_tech/article.php/3495176

    Also, look at “Corrupted Election” on this site, Feb. 15th.  Columbia University, Berkeley and University of Illinois have all done comparative statistical studies and all have come to the conclusion that this election was stolen.

    I know this won’t convince any brainwashed neocons, but WE know the truth when we see it.

    United States Posted by Margaret on Apr 7, 2005 at 9:43 AM

    Lamont,

    In your rant you forget to mention the cause of the Israeli aggression is due to Palestinian terorism. I personally think the Israelis have been quite humble in their dealings with the Palestinians and other Arabs. If my neighbor wanted to rip my and everyone of my peoples head off and spit down my neck no matter what the cost, I would have attacked and annihilated them long ago. The pancake girl is no innocent. Read a few more sources on Rachel Corry (sp). She should have denounced her American citizenship and started a new life in the ME. She was no innocent American.

    Italy Posted by JM_64 on Apr 7, 2005 at 9:47 AM

    Once again, we have a neocon who wants to come online and create chaos with baseless accusations and flimsy evidence.  Once again, people, the best thing we can do is to ignore him.  He is dishonest in his attempts to debate, which makes me also think this is really just J. Craig.  Do you think he does naughty things to himself while he posts?

    United States Posted by Margaret on Apr 7, 2005 at 9:50 AM

    Jane,


    Let’s get back to Chalmers Johnson. How much do people in the uS understand how they appear to other people in the world? Have you seen the news about a poll conducted by an Austrlian think tank-the Lowy Institute-of the views held by asurtalians about the US? The results were interesting and discomforting to our neo-con lite copy cat conservatives in this country. The implications for US allies let alone their enemies are interesting


    I don’t think we should worry so much about what other countries think of us, that’s a Clinton holdover. Other countries should worry what we think about them. Again with the polls. You should ask Americans that have actually lived or visited the country before taking stock in a poll.

    Italy Posted by JM_64 on Apr 7, 2005 at 9:58 AM

    Matilida,

    Regarding Iraqi body counts….you have any source that is neutral? That 17,000 figure seems kinda low. I hear the libs and dems keep spouting the 100,000 dead Iraqi’s. What was the criteria for “innocent” in counting the dead?

    Italy Posted by JM_64 on Apr 7, 2005 at 10:02 AM

    Matilida,

    Between 27 September 2000 and 10 February 2003 Palestinians were responsible for the deaths of 709 Israelis.  During the same time period Israeli soldiers killed 2007 Palestinians.

    What is the significance of those dates? Didn’t the intifada start back in the mid ‘90s?

    Italy Posted by JM_64 on Apr 7, 2005 at 10:04 AM

    “That is exactly wrong.  Bush did not receive more votes than Kerry in 2004.  I suggest you do more research into election fraud and rigging, because thats what happened, and thats the root of all these problems, including terrible foreign policy.

    What reputable source are you relying on?”

    I posted several links on this previously. You can try arguing with 9 accredited mathematicians & statisticians if you want but be prepared.

    I’m not going to digny your ignorant, racist, misinformed & violent comments you made after that with a response.

    Australia Posted by LamontCranston on Apr 7, 2005 at 10:05 AM

    Margaret,

    I come here and a few other sites to gain further information of a non-neocon bent and opinions with which to forge my own.

    Then you shouldn’t read the thread and just stick with the article.

    Italy Posted by JM_64 on Apr 7, 2005 at 10:10 AM

    Craig,

    No, I am not an internet troll. My hope is not to entice other users into angry or fruitless responses. That often is the result, but it is not my hope

    That’s funny….

    Italy Posted by JM_64 on Apr 7, 2005 at 10:12 AM

    somewhere in texas a village is missing it’s idiot

    United States Posted by brian on Apr 7, 2005 at 10:14 AM

    Cynthia,

    How long has the “Fall of the American Empire” been happening? Just since Bush took office I bet eh?

    Italy Posted by JM_64 on Apr 7, 2005 at 10:21 AM

    and a schizophrenic one at that

    United States Posted by tomkins on Apr 7, 2005 at 10:24 AM

    hthttp://www.bushwatch.com/bushlies.htm

    tp://www.bushlies.net/pages/10/index.htm

    http://www.davidcorn.com/2005/04/shaking_hands_w.php

    United States Posted by brian on Apr 7, 2005 at 10:29 AM

    When OVER half the American population voted against Bush but “certain” people are unable to see that the opposition is not a “fringe” group, that is what I call delusional.

    JM never says anything of real import.  He just cajoles for his ego gratification.  I have yet to see any substantiation for his out-of-touch views.  Repubs won this battle (stealing the election, deceiving the American people), but the rest of us will have to clean up their mess when all is said and done.

    United States Posted by Margaret on Apr 7, 2005 at 10:33 AM

    Chuck,

    Because across the board the most vociferous supporters of US Foreign Policy and our new imperial mobilizations take their information straight from the politicians and the mainstream media

    Are you serious??? The Main Stream Media (MSM) tried to bring down a sitting president in a time of war during an election with false allegations and you think that people whom support the presidents foreign policy follow the MSM??? You sir…are delusional.

    Italy Posted by JM_64 on Apr 7, 2005 at 10:39 AM

    LiberalandProud,

    The fact is that until GW Bush, our country did not condone pre-emptive war,

    Didn’t Lincoln invade the South pre-emptively? I think so…

    Italy Posted by JM_64 on Apr 7, 2005 at 10:42 AM

    JM

    Obviously you didn’t even bother to read the link left about the CBS story.  Actually, the secretary states that GWB was a crappy Guard who was disliked by Killian for his bad attitude and poor performance.  The story was true, just not the documents.  Funny how GWB could escape his past once again on a feeding frenzy caveat by the right-wingers. 

    And, CBS, isn’t that the newsgroup that just won the Pulitzer Prize this week?

    Also, what a baseless statement, “read the articles”.  Obviously, I do.  So why don’t you follow your own advice and put that “Hustler” down, take your other hand off the keyboard and turn to an “article”, for once.

    United States Posted by Margaret on Apr 7, 2005 at 10:44 AM

    No, the south attacked Fort Sumpter(sp) first.

    Australia Posted by LamontCranston on Apr 7, 2005 at 10:44 AM

    JM_64 writes;

    ” No, I am not an internet troll. My hope is not to entice other users into angry or fruitless responses. That often is the result, but it is not my hope

    That’s funny….”

    What possibly could JM’s intentions be if it’s not trolling.  Do you think it’ll ever offer an honest and straightforward account of what it’s hopes are?  Much less what it considers a reliable source?

    It’s funny like something that’s been six months in the back of your fridge smells.

    United States Posted by luminous beauty on Apr 7, 2005 at 10:45 AM

    Chuck,

    What I mean is that the official story


    You know there is more to it than what you are stating. First point, a plane has never been used as a weapon during a hijacking…I’ll just stop right here on explaining some of the events on 9-11. Not sure anyone can but to make accusations based on assumptions is wrong. Occam’s Razor does not fit into 9-11.

    Italy Posted by JM_64 on Apr 7, 2005 at 10:47 AM

    correction: Sumter.

    Australia Posted by LamontCranston on Apr 7, 2005 at 10:48 AM

    Does anyone else find it ironic that the last time Americans resorted to pre-emtive attack they were Confederates? I dunno about anyone else but I find that sad and hilarious at the same.

    Australia Posted by LamontCranston on Apr 7, 2005 at 10:50 AM

    Joseph,

    Any layman through stats can prove that ice cream causes murder.

    Italy Posted by JM_64 on Apr 7, 2005 at 10:52 AM

    Well obviously they’ve done it a lot more lately, but they’ve been stealthy about it, none led to major wars, you all of course know what I mean.
    It certainly does sum up JM_64 pretty well that he believed Lincoln pre-emtively attacked the Confederacy.
    “(It) will lose us every friend at the North. You will wantonly strike a hornets’ nest…. Legions now quiet will swarm out and sting us to death. It is unnecessary. It puts us in the wrong. It is fatal.”
    —Secretary of State Robert Toombs, the only Confederate cabinet-member who opposed the decision.

    Australia Posted by LamontCranston on Apr 7, 2005 at 10:58 AM

    Lamont,

    Well do you count those “free-speech pens” where they lock up people voicing an alternative view far away so no one can see the demononstrators?

    I don’t know what the dems were afraid of to put those people in pens. Ask your local dem congressman that you support? Again…name me one innocent American that has been hurt by the Patriot Act? Just one…not some dumba** anarchists that just want to fight…

    Italy Posted by JM_64 on Apr 7, 2005 at 11:09 AM

    Brian,

    After Zogby was proven to have altered his polling results in favor of Kerry, how on eath can you believe ANY poll? Polls were only useful for pundits and now they aren’t useful to anyone.

    Italy Posted by JM_64 on Apr 7, 2005 at 11:12 AM

    JM, feel free to reply to what I said about your civil-war comments, feel free to reply anytime. And once again the polls were perfectly acceptable evidence of vote-fraud in the Ukraine.

    Australia Posted by LamontCranston on Apr 7, 2005 at 11:14 AM

    A present for our new incarnation of the Eternal Troll.  That is if it is capable of cut and paste.

    http://www.palestine-net.com/history/

    Yes, Lamont it is ironic.  But our history is bloodier than that. Consider Mexico, Cuba, the Phillipines, Haiti, Nicaragua, the Dominican Republic, Mexico again, Nicaragua again and again, Guatamala, Iran, Chile, Haiti again and again and again, Venezuela, etc., etc.  Not to mention the holocaust of indigenous people.  Pre-emptive war and intervention is not new to US history.

    United States Posted by luminous beauty on Apr 7, 2005 at 11:14 AM

    Matt,

    No..I’m not J. Craig…funny how you should accuse me tho. I just found this site today and read Chalmers inaccurate assessment of the workings of the world. I started reading the thread and some of the..uhm…lest just say I couldn’t keep my fingers away from the keyboard.

    Italy Posted by JM_64 on Apr 7, 2005 at 11:23 AM

    Lamont,

    Why do you accuse everyone whom disagrees with you of being a racist? Ya know what I say to people whom accuse “pubbies” of being racists….that the first republican president…freed the slaves…put that in your bong and smoke it buddy….

    Italy Posted by JM_64 on Apr 7, 2005 at 11:29 AM

    Margaret,

    We are cleaning up after Clintons mess. You have no clue. Sit back and drink your favorite spirit and let the real men take care of the good ol’ U.S. of A. and reap the benefits.

    Italy Posted by JM_64 on Apr 7, 2005 at 11:34 AM

    Inaccurate assessment of the workings of the world? hah! I think you need to go back to the links I first posted to see the serious trouble the USA is in:
    http://www.morganstanley.com/GEFdata/digests/20050318-fri.html#anchor0
    http://www.financialsense.com/fsu/editorials/charting/2005/0 0302.html
    http://www.gao.gov/cghome/intergovchallenge.pdf

    one is from MorganStanley, saying not only is this happening but it is now unavoidable and unstopable, the other is from the Government Acountability Office itself, although it is slightly more optimistic.

    Australia Posted by LamontCranston on Apr 7, 2005 at 11:35 AM

    If you think the Republicans of 1860-1865 are the same Republicans of today then you’re a goddamned fool.

    Australia Posted by LamontCranston on Apr 7, 2005 at 11:38 AM

    “..uhm…lest just say I couldn’t keep my fingers away from the keyboard”

    JM isn’t J Craig, merely a clone.  (I can’t rule out the possibility of MPD)  Demanding everyone to source their information, dismissing all sources provided as “biased”, offering no support whatever for their own opinions, these clowns are so convinced of their intellectual superiority when it’s so obvious they haven’t a clue.  They suffer from the malady of diarrhea of the mouth and constipation of the brain.

    United States Posted by luminous beauty on Apr 7, 2005 at 11:41 AM

    Another famous Republican, Teddy Roosevelt, was also the first environmentalist president. That’s something you’re probably not so proud of, and if he were here today he’d appalled & outraged at what’s being done to the environment. [Although I doubt he’d complain about the mess in the middle-east but if he did then he’d be a damned hypocrite]. If Lincoln were here today you’d be denouncing him as a socialist treason of his nation, I could go on but you’ve already demonstrated a remarkable ignorance of your own countries history.

    Australia Posted by LamontCranston on Apr 7, 2005 at 11:46 AM

    The more it blather’s on, though, the more MPD is a likelihood.

    United States Posted by luminous beauty on Apr 7, 2005 at 11:47 AM

    And I’m still waiting for a reply regarding Fort Sumter.

    Australia Posted by LamontCranston on Apr 7, 2005 at 11:47 AM

    Margaret,

    Obviously you didn’t even bother to read the link left about the CBS story.  Actually, the secretary states (and later recanted) that GWB was a crappy Guard who was disliked by Killian for his bad attitude and poor performance.  The story was true, just not the documents.  Funny how GWB could escape his past once again on a feeding frenzy caveat by the right-wingers.

    What poor performance? What were his performance ratings? Is that stated? I don’t want to hear some 70-80 year old secretary talk about a fighter pilot, National Guard or not. If there is factual written evidence of a poor performance report..I want to see it…not some MS Word document run through a kinko’s copying machine 20 times to make it look old…jeez.

    And, CBS, isn’t that the newsgroup that just won the Pulitzer Prize this week?

    We’ll…they are giving pulitzers to photographers whom work hand and hand with the terrorists. Wonder if they would have given german photographers in WWII pulitzers showing Germans ambushing and slaughtering American troops during WWII. Keep watching your CBS, NBC, CNN, ABC and every other leftwing leaning news organization. That way…you can read and see the REAL news…as they want to report it…not how it actually happens.

    Also, what a baseless statement, “read the articles”.  Obviously, I do.  So why don’t you follow your own advice and put that “Hustler” down, take your other hand off the keyboard and turn to an “article”, for once.

    My point was…you were dissing J. Craig for offering a differing viewpoint and taking exception. Why not just read the article and leave the forum if you don’t want to read differing view points?

    Italy Posted by JM_64 on Apr 7, 2005 at 11:48 AM

    well JM, what news outlets would you recomend?

    Australia Posted by LamontCranston on Apr 7, 2005 at 11:52 AM

    Brian,

    USATODAY/CNN/GALLOP Poll….sez it all.

    Italy Posted by JM_64 on Apr 7, 2005 at 12:01 PM

    Margaret,

    I can’t do it now…it’s almost my bedtime…but tomorrow I will do a google search on Bush/Kerry election fraud and get back to you…

    Italy Posted by JM_64 on Apr 7, 2005 at 12:03 PM

    Margaret,

    I have a BA in US History

    Then you should be ashamed of yourself….

    Italy Posted by JM_64 on Apr 7, 2005 at 12:05 PM

    Brian,

    I don’t see any facts comming from jm

    I guess I’m a troll…I’m just commenting on the dissertation that has no facts to back itself up…

    Italy Posted by JM_64 on Apr 7, 2005 at 12:07 PM

    Lamont,

    I will not get started on a discussion of the Civil War…the Civil War was a response on pre-emptive strike strategy…Lincoln…the first republican president….the president whom freed the slaves….the president whom threw out the constitution because of war…

    Italy Posted by JM_64 on Apr 7, 2005 at 12:16 PM

    I posted some information a few pages ago on the Bush election fraud, if you want to argue with 9 accredited mathematicians & satiations that’s your choice but be prepared.
    http://uscountvotes.org/ucvAnalysis/US/Exit_Polls_2004_Edison-Mitofsky.pdf
    http://electionarchive.org/ucvAnalysis/US/Exit_Polls_summary.pdf
    http://www.votersunite.org/info/SnohomishElectionFraudInvestigation.pdf
    http://www.seattleweekly.com/features/0504/050126_news_snohomish.php

    “I will not get started on a discussion of the Civil War”
    Thats funny, I could have sworn you were the one who brought it up.
    “the Civil War was a response on pre-emptive strike strategy”
    Yes response to the pre-emtive strike strategy of the SOUTHERN CONFEDERACY, Lincoln did not strike first, THE SOUTHERN CONFEDERACY STRUCK FIRST AT FORT SUMTER I hope you can try and understand this. I also hope that if you try and argue history you get your facts straight first.

    And once again what media would you would recommend.

    Australia Posted by LamontCranston on Apr 7, 2005 at 12:24 PM

    ” We’ll…they are giving pulitzers to photographers whom work hand and hand with the terrorists. Wonder if they would have given german photographers in WWII pulitzers showing Germans ambushing and slaughtering American troops during WWII”

    Evidence of mental incompetence on it’s face.  Over and above the misuse of ‘whom, the non-capitalization of ‘german’ and the apostrophe in well.

    United States Posted by luminous beauty on Apr 7, 2005 at 12:30 PM

    Lamont & All,

    I am not going to hijack this thread to discuss the civil war. Make a new thread and we will discuss states rights. Like I said in an earlier post, I just found this site today.  I am finding it terribly lacking. The users should learn HTML so other users can have direct links instead of utilizing copy and paste. This site is much to slow to copy and paste. Just replying to messages is slow. This site need more bandwidth and more links for navigation. I have enjoyed my time on here. I hope to come back in the future. I have yet to have been notified that someone responded to one of my posts. Not sure if that is working right. But nonetheless, I am enjoying the site.

    Italy Posted by JM_64 on Apr 7, 2005 at 12:36 PM

    Lummy,

    Believe me…it was dun on purpose…doh! Are you really a beauty or are you one of those people that is described as habing an “inner beauty”?

    Italy Posted by JM_64 on Apr 7, 2005 at 12:38 PM

    No, you said the North and Mr. Lincoln struck first now you’re either going to explain yourself or apologise & eat your words. You can’t back out of this.
    Take up your other complaints with the site admin.

    Australia Posted by LamontCranston on Apr 7, 2005 at 12:38 PM

    Ok…it’s almost my bedtime so “ping” me and we’ll talk tomorrow…

    Italy Posted by JM_64 on Apr 7, 2005 at 12:41 PM

    This link will give folks an idea where ET gets it’s info.

    http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000873117

    “Believe me…it was dun on purpose…doh!” 

    What was on purpose, making grammatical errors or making a flawed analogy?  What purpose could that possibly be?

    United States Posted by luminous beauty on Apr 7, 2005 at 12:50 PM

    Lummy,

    This link will give folks an idea where ET gets it’s info.

    Yawn….oh well..off to bed…some of us have to get up with the sun to ensure Americans can be free….nite

    Italy Posted by JM_64 on Apr 7, 2005 at 12:54 PM

    correction:

    http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000873117

    United States Posted by luminous beauty on Apr 7, 2005 at 12:59 PM

    so you had the time to say would not read it because you’re going to bed, but you don’t have the time to read it?
    TROLL.

    Australia Posted by LamontCranston on Apr 7, 2005 at 1:00 PM

    JM_64 said,
    “I have enjoyed my time on here. I hope to come back in the future.”

    Oh boy, what excitement! Does this mean another name for the “man with a thousand names” exits? Soon to be replaced with yet another troll name?

    Personally I think that Margaret said it best. Ignore this troll, regardless of whatever name he uses. He (or his clones) are here only to disrupt and have his emotional orgasms. Corresponding with him in any way just encourages his continued dishonest behavior.

    United States Posted by Merlin on Apr 7, 2005 at 1:00 PM

    Go here and scroll down under ‘more headlines’ to story “AP Calls Criticism…”

    http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/index.jsp

    United States Posted by luminous beauty on Apr 7, 2005 at 1:07 PM

    To all
        jm_64 bears all the hallmarks of J Craig.
        He keeps asking for citations that are common knowledge, and then when confronted by citations of sources, he/she/it refuses to acknowledge their validity.
        For example, he/she/it refuses to acknowledge the a CBS poll is valid. It may contain flaws in the questions it asks, but CBS pays more than enough money to make certain that a reputable company conducts and evaluates proper samples.
        jm_64’s position on this is thus, at a mininum, unscientific.
        Posters who are more inclined to have a factual discussion have two options:
        1) Ignore his/her/its comments, and deny the feelings of troll empowerment so necessary to the toxic personality.
        2) Complain to the site administrator and troll’s ISP.
        The similarities between posters jm_64 and J. Craig are striking. Since both are fond of requiring proof, why not, jm_64, submit your ISP address to the site administrator, who can decide the matter. And post it on the site, so that when he/she/it surfaces on other websites, we will have a frame of reference. Let us see your references, first.
      —No regards at all—jfd—end message.

    United States Posted by Joseph F Dunphy MBA MFP on Apr 7, 2005 at 1:56 PM

    people like jm_64 and j. craig show you how hitler came to power, now they believe in the bush dictatorship.They will only see one side of a
    story,there’s. Remember only a fool will make a decision with one side of a story.

    United States Posted by brian on Apr 7, 2005 at 2:42 PM

    What is the source of Mrs. Knox’s retraction?  I never read or heard that anywhere.  I think it is in your head.

    So if you are a military man that must rise with the sun, that would explain your brainwashed state.  Your kind are bringing the “blowback” on us. 

    By the way, Clinton left us in terrific shape compared to your chimpanzee.

    So, with this post, I refuse to engage Nazi-boy any further.  If any of the rest of you wish to break free and continue meaningful dialogue, I will be glad to continue. 

    I refuse to interact with fascists, which ANYONE who supports this neocon administration is.  So, bye-bye, I hope the door doesn’t hit you on the way out, JM.

    United States Posted by Margaret on Apr 7, 2005 at 3:10 PM

    I’ve often noticed in these “debates” the ‘conservative’ will eventually claim to be in the military.
    I’d have thought your own nations military history, i.e. who attacked whom in the civil war, would be something taught to soldiers. Or at least something you would naturally be interested in.

    Australia Posted by LamontCranston on Apr 7, 2005 at 3:15 PM

    JM_64’s position is that of turkey with it’s head up it’s behind.  The stupider trolls are the hardest to deal with because they don’t understand how to think so don’t realize when they’ve been beaten.  J Craig disappeared when several people cleaned it’s rhetorical clock.  If the current troll is the same entity it is craftily refraining from making any deductions or inferences, just unsourced opinion and boneheaded historical allusions.  The only thing to do is ignore it (don’t address it directly), and get it so angry it flames-out.  We shall see if it returns.

    United States Posted by luminous beauty on Apr 7, 2005 at 3:21 PM

    Hi Joe,
    Thanks for this piece of info. I was ignorant about this.

    “jm_64, submit your ISP address to the site administrator, who can decide the matter. And post it on the site, so that when he/she/it surfaces on other websites, we will have a frame of reference. Let us see your references, first.”

    What a simple solution! When there is reasonable non responsive doubt I think it should!

    United States Posted by Merlin on Apr 7, 2005 at 3:32 PM

    OOps, should have added:

    (should) be done!

    United States Posted by Merlin on Apr 7, 2005 at 3:34 PM

    I only need to look at the native inhabitants of my own country - Australia - to see the cost of imperialism, not to mention the native populations of surrounding countries.
    Prehapes this from the Christian-Science Moniter [a pretty good paper, with the exception of their coverage of the Christian-Science religion of course] might give an idea of the personal cost of modern imperialism: http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0528/p01s02-woiq.html


    (For those wondering once they’ve read it, there has indeed been one confirmed case of soldiers raping a 17 year old girl held at abu ghraib, they were not punished.)

    Australia Posted by LamontCranston on Apr 8, 2005 at 2:51 AM

    It may be true that JM is not J Craig.However,his writing and debating style is identical .Does this support my theory that all right wingers take their talking points and debating styles from the same source,or is JM just so lazy that he adopts someone else’s wroting style?Oh,wait,I forgot,he doesn’t spit back what the other person says in quotations before he refutes it without argument or fact,he italicizes it.Big difference.


        JM,if the Republican politicians spent as much time enforcing taxation upon the rich as do devising schemes to let the rich keep their money through tax cuts that don’t stimulate the economy(don’t tell me about all the"manufacturing jobs” Bush created,hamburger jobs are not manufacturing despite republican deception),perhaps you wouldn’t have to pay so much in taxes.

        Q:What is taxation percentage on a minimum wage worker?

        A:22-25%

        Q:what is the taxation percentage upon the billionaire CEO who employs that worker?
     
        A:31%

        And the rich in this country have the nerve to gripe about their taxes?My God,the arrogance and ingratitude.Especially when one considers the amount of political access they have derived from wealth.

        Whether or not JM is J Craig,one thing is certain.JM has also been suckered into believing the big lie"side with the rich because you may be rich too one day”.

        What are the chances of one suddenly becoming rich?

        Actually you have two chances:

        SLIM and FAT!
         
        Faced with those odds,some still have the naivety,gullibility,temerity,or stupidity to vote republican?I should get out of teaching and sell stupid crap on infomercials and make a fortune.However,unlike republicans,I have a sense of decency.

    United States Posted by wwoods on Apr 8, 2005 at 6:23 AM

    Sorry to double post,but I just remembered if you ask J Craig what he does for a living that makes him a fountain of political wisdom,he goes away.You do have to ignore his nebulous remarks about working with numbers and press the issue.I have a feeling he does want to admit he’s a naive student or living with the ‘rents in middle age.Perhaps this strategy will also work with JM.

        So,JM,what do you do that makes you sucvh a fountain of political acumen?Be honest.

    United States Posted by wwoods on Apr 8, 2005 at 6:31 AM

    “Bush instead joined Ariel Sharon in his expropriation and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians. As a result, the United States has lost all credibility, influence and trust in the Islamic world.”

    You were doing great until you spewed this bucket of effluent. 

    Accusing, Sharon, the head of a nation of ethnic cleansing, which very existence arose as sanctuary for a race of people (which includes Sharon) whose existence was attempted to be exterminated, and which nation’s existence is the subject of express vowes of destruction by all of its surrounding neighbors, including those who you claim to be the victims of ethnic cleansing, is OUTRAGEOUS, VULGAR, OBSCENE and DESPICABLE.  DEFENDING YOURSELF FROM THOSE WHO HAVE VOWED YOUR DISTRUCTION THROUGH CONTINUOUS MILITARY AND TERRORISTS ATTACKS IS NOT ETHNIC CLEANSING.  IT’S SELF DEFENSE.

    As for US credibility among the Arabs, your analysis falls woefully short and misses the mark.  The US has plenty of credibility - it has consistently stood behind Israel’s right to exist and has never waivered from that position, notwithstanding the idiot Bush’s pre-2000 proclamation that he would not get involved in middle east conflict.  (Apparently he was either lying again, or found some political advantage in changing his position).  Rather, it is Arab SUPPORT of the US that is lacking because the Arabs have expressly stated that Israel has no right to exist, and have acted in accordance with it’s express policy by perpetual military and terrorist attacks on Israel from its inception.  The only way to change the Arabs’ position is to agree with them that Israel must be destroyed.

    On the other hand, your credibility is called into question by your injudicious (read asinine) use of the term “ethnic cleansing.”

    Canada Posted by Lefty on Apr 8, 2005 at 7:27 AM

    Max said:

    “When a liberals uses the term “WE” to describe the United States, beware.  Why is the U.S “WE”? . . .”

    Max, I agree with the substance of your statement completely.  It’s your symantics I would change.  My question is, why do liberals like Mr. Johnson, so readily accept the blame for the crimes of republicans by proclaming that America, or we, have been ugly or have engaged in some criminal enterprise.  It is not America or we, it is them, the republicans who must shoulder the entire responsibility for their crimes.  Not America, not we.  Republicans can’t get along with anyone in the world.  Everyone in the world despises republicans.  It is the republicans who are the first enemy of American and the world.

    Mr. Johnson, I would ask that you be more mindful of this issue in the future.  As a liberal, I object to other liberals impiedly taking the blame for the crimes of republicans.

    Canada Posted by Lefty on Apr 8, 2005 at 7:49 AM

    Lefty, the truth hurts, the truth hurts a great deal. But just because it hurts doesn’t mean you take out your anger on the messenger.
    As for your defence of Sharon, I find that totally and complete despicable and disgusting and it is a perfect example of your lack of knowledge on this subject.
    The Arab states have not expressed that Israel does not have a right to exist, they have for decades backed the 1967 UN mandate of two separate, equal and above all else independent states. Portions of the populations of those countries hold differing views for understandable but unjustifiable reasons.
    As for Arab the populations lack of support for the US, look at their dictators and look who supports those dictators [politically, economically, militarily] - and in some cases installed them into power - once you have looked into this you may begin to see why support for the US is lacking in the Arab world.
    The United States of America is not a dictatorship; it is not Nazi-Germany, Imperial-Japan, the Soviet Union, North Korea, China, Iraq, etc. America is a country where the people determine the government and as such can and should be held equally accountable for not taking action when the government they have elected and represents them does the wrong thing by its own laws, international laws, treaties, etc.

    Australia Posted by LamontCranston on Apr 8, 2005 at 8:12 AM

    Mr. Johnson notes in his story that the first thing the government needs to do is deal with our mounting national and trade debts.  In another ITT article “How to Turn Your Red State Blue,” the author suggests that focusing on personal debt might be a good rallying topic.  I confess that debt doesn’t conjure up the same kind of emotion, in my opinion, that a host of other political topics do - peace or taxes or choice or life or Social Security or…well, you get my meaning.  But that may simply be marketing.  Shouldn’t it be possible to link the debt issues together?  Living within our means, both personally and collectively, seems like a theme that would resonate with a lot of people, regardless of party affiliation.  Debt limits us, constricts us, oppresses us.  Credit opens up opportunities, expands our choices, promotes freedom.  The theme works both individually and collectively and in so doing, connects with all of us, whether we are personally in debt or not.  I think it’s a movement waiting for a voice.  What do you think?

    United States Posted by tomkins on Apr 8, 2005 at 8:15 AM

    well does a federal debt of $43trillion dollars - 45% owed to the rest of the world - and a wealth of $47trillion dollars conjur up apropriate emotional reactions?

    Australia Posted by LamontCranston on Apr 8, 2005 at 8:18 AM

    Lefty:

    The operative term in the whole middle east debate is “Israel’s right to exist”, which is a misnomer.  It should read “the State of Israel’s right to exist”, there’s a big difference.

    Israel existed prior to creation of the State of Israel, it existed within Palestine.  Israelis and Palestinians peacefully co-existed for centurys before the State of Israel was created.  The differences between “pre State” and “post State” Israel are ethnic and political, the conflict is Arab vs. European and culture vs. policy.

    Arab Israelis and Palestinians are cousins and tolerated each others religious and cultural differences.  If European Jews had merely immigrated to Palestine and assimilated into the existing Israeli population instead of evicting the non-Jewish citizens and imposing an ethnic policy over culture, Israelis new and old would not have needed protection from Palestines’ neighbors.

    United States Posted by theloneous on Apr 8, 2005 at 8:48 AM

    I feel compelled to suggest a great book I just finished.  It is called Days of War, Nights of Love: Crimethink for Beginners.  It is a collection of articles written by members of the CrimethInc. Workers Collective on everything from morality and capitalism to love, media, and hygiene. It starts of like this: 

    Think about your direct bodily experience of life. No one can lie to you about that.

    I would like to go into more detail, but it has given me so many ideas and fleshed out or reinforced so many others that I never seem to hear anywhere but in my own head that I must go write.

    United States Posted by Disseminator on Apr 8, 2005 at 9:54 AM

    lefty says:

    ” My question is, why do liberals like Mr. Johnson, so readily accept the blame for the crimes of republicans by proclaming that America, or we, have been ugly or have engaged in some criminal enterprise”

    First, Chalmers Johnson is not liberal.  He is an ex-cold warrior of the Empire who has undergone conversion to become a public intellectual.  As such he does and should confess to his personal culpability.

    Second, it is not a matter of blame, but a recognition of the fact that the consequences of the actions of the US government fall on all of us, even non-citizens in other lands.  If “we” are to change those policies, “we” must assume responsibility for the suffering those policies have inflicted upon the world.

    Third, liberals have been just as guilty as conservatives in enabling the rise of the American Empire, since at least the Louisiana Purchase.

    United States Posted by luminous beauty on Apr 8, 2005 at 10:28 AM

    Theo and Lamont,

    I have, by and large, agreed with most every post you have done. But I do not agree on the Israeli issue, and this is why.

    1. In 1917 the Balfour Declaration by Britain allowed for the creation of two states-one Israeli and one, Palestinian.
    2. The two states were established in 1922- Israel and Trans-Jordan.  The Arab-Muslims were given a country as well as the Jews.
    3.On the day of Israel’s independence, Iraq, Egypt, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon all attacked Israel, each from their own border.  They failed to destroy Israel.
    4. Then the Imams from the above-mentioned countries encouraged all Muslims-Arabs to leave Israel.  720,000 Arabs/Muslims then left Israel.  On the other side, Jews fled from Arab-Muslim lands to seek refuge in Israel and they numbered 600,000.  Now do the math—why couldn’t those countries have absorbed the new “refugees”?  The fact is, they didn’t.  They left them homeless to be used as political pawns.
    5.In 1946, Trans-Jordan was renamed simply Jordan, to be a homeland for the “refugee” Palestinians.
    6. 11-29-47 The General Assembly of the UN voted a 2/3 majority to partition the area into two states, Israel and Jordan.  In response to this solution for both parties, the Mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al Husseini caled for a jihad and declared, “murder the Jews”.
    7. In 1949 an armisitice was signed by mentioned countries except Iraq. 
    8. In ‘66, the Syrians attacked the Golan Heights.
    9.May ‘67 the Egyptians moved into the Sinai and forceably removed the UN Peacekeepers from the Egyptian/Israeli border.  They then closed the Straits of Tiran to shipping, closing off Israel’s economic tie to the world.  They then encouraged Syria, Iraq, Jordan, and Lebanon to attack Israel.
    10. In the following “Yom Kippur” war of ‘67, Israel claimed the West Bank and Gaza Strip. They defeated the above-mentioned countries in response to being attacked while most Jews were in the synagogues for the holy days.
    11. Later a Peace Treaty was signed and Israel relinquished the Sinai to Egypt in exchange for peace.  Both Jordan and Egypt signed.
    12. The PLO was offered a chance to sign, but would not because they say that the State of Israel has no right to exist.

    I’m not saying that Israel has been a saint, far from it.  They need to change their approach as well, but don’t act like the Palestinians are the poor, hapless victims.  They, too, must change.

    United States Posted by Margaret on Apr 8, 2005 at 10:32 AM

    Disseminator:

    Sounds interesting.  Inspires me to recommend the book I’m reading now; “Pocahontas: Medicine Woman, Spy, Entrepreneur, Diplomat”  by Paula Gunn Allen.

    From the cover blurbs:

    “Dr. Gunn Allen’s creative assessment of history and myth presents us with a spiritual ethnography of America’s origins.  Through a focus on one powerful young woman, the book maps the cultural conflict and social synthesis arising from Europe’s encounter with the ancient civilizations of the American Indians.  The story that began with Pocahontas still runs through the lives of all of us today.  What appears to be a book about the past turns out to be a book about ourselves”

    —Jack Weatherford, author of “Indian Givers:  How the Indians of the Americas Transformed the World”

    United States Posted by luminous beauty on Apr 8, 2005 at 10:49 AM

    LamontCranston,

    So I gather you are in the “yes” camp. :) 

    It’s true, the numbers you mention are certainly scary.  The problem, as I see it, is that “billions” or even “trillions” has no real meaning for most people.  They are far, far, far too big to be comprehended directly.  Shoot, I get in trouble past the number four.  That’s where the link to personal debt comes in.  People can connect with that - directly.  For example, when they are applying for or paying down a mortgage, a car loan, a credit card, etc.  I know I do.  The billions and trillions in national debt is scary ...and something “they” really ought to fix.  Thank goodness it doesn’t effect me!  Ahem.  Not true, of course, but connecting the problems related to our (and our children’s) collective debt with the FELT limitations caused by personal debt can make the issue much more real, more experienced, to everyone.  Which is the first and most crucial step to getting the problem fixed. 

    PS LB, thanks for the link.  Very interesting.

    United States Posted by tomkins on Apr 8, 2005 at 10:55 AM

    1 million has six zeros. 1 billion has nine zeros. 1 trillion has twelve zeros.

    Australia Posted by LamontCranston on Apr 8, 2005 at 10:58 AM

    1. How many Palestinians were a party of signing those treaties? Or any of the others you mention for that matter. You need only do a quick search on the internet to see that the map of the modern day middle-east was not drawn up by the people living there but by the French & the British. And that the ‘native population’ had little or no say in any of the boundry drawing.
    4. If a pointed a gun at your head, told you your land is now my land because my God says so, gave you 5 minutes to get out of your home & after that I was not responsible for what happened and demanded that you go to Mexico or Canada for “refugee exchange” as you put it, you would do so with no qualms, no complaints, no hatred, no nothing you’d just up and leave as if you were going into town to do some shopping?
    And as for the math well that’d still leave 120,000 Palestinians without homes. Further more do you think the surrounding countries had the infrastructure to deal with either 720,000 or 120,000 refugees coming in? The British and the French imperial-masters hadn’t allowed them to become that independent.
    9 & 11. That was Egyptian first then the Israelis occupied it and started the same settlement program they’ve got going in the West Bank. When they first went in the Egyptians tried to be diplomatic, the Israelis ignored them, everyone else figured they wouldn’t seriously do anything so they went ahead and seriously did something and reclaimed their land.

    Australia Posted by LamontCranston on Apr 8, 2005 at 11:09 AM

    The question is not what they are, but what they mean.  A trillion dollar debt is 1000 times worse than a billion dollar debt?  How bad again is a billion dollar debt?

    United States Posted by tomkins on Apr 8, 2005 at 11:13 AM

    Margaret:

    The Palestinians are poor.  They have only survived for the last 50+ yrs. on UN aid and sometimes low wage jobs in Israel.

    They are hapless.  There is no permissible autonomy for Palestinians in the lands they inhabit.

    They are victims.  The Palestinians didn’t force the majority of Israelis out of their homes and into refugee camps.

    If you must seek historical blame for the situation, review point #1 of your post.  This is always the kind of thing that arises from the hubris of imperialism.

    United States Posted by luminous beauty on Apr 8, 2005 at 11:14 AM

    A billion dollar debt is a thousand times worse than a million dollar debt :D

    Australia Posted by LamontCranston on Apr 8, 2005 at 11:15 AM

    No more Palestinians signed than did Israeli citizens.  But the point is, there was no Palestinian country before that, either.  They both got a country.

    Not only that, the Jews did not ever ask the Palestinians to leave—that was the work of their own religious hierarchy.  And while 120,000 more Palestinians left of their own free will than did Jews returning, the Palestinians were moving into already long-established countries who had “called them out”, and then provided nothing for them.  I’m sorry, but I can’t see that as Israel’s fault.

    Recently I read a poll conducted in the Middle East asking about perceptions of “right” to state.  The majority of modern-day Israeli’s supported a Palestinian state, the but the data didn’t cut that way on the other side.  I will try to find it and post it.

    My point is, I believe that the Orthodox settlers have it all wrong.  If the land is theirs through the will of God, He will give it to them.  That’s what the Bible says will ultimately happen at Armeggedon.  That’s why Western Countries support Israel.  But they think they have to go win it back.  They actually are breaking Old Testament teachings that instruct one to “be kind to foreigners”.  Recently I have learned from a Muslim friend that they also believe the world will end at Armeggedon but, of course, they believe they will win.  Both sides are guilt, both deserve their own country, but the Palestinians are not innocent any more than the Jews are.

    United States Posted by Margaret on Apr 8, 2005 at 11:22 AM

    LB

    Yes, they are poor.  So why did the nations that called them out of Israel not provide for them?  Why when King Hussein offered the Prime Ministership to Yassar Arafat, he refused because Hussein insisted that the terrorism be stopped? 

    So the British set up the original deal—is that so terrible that they tried to make a solution for two displaced peoples?  Let’s remember that, in fact, the Jews were there first (in non-Egyptian land).  Just suppose the Palestinians had not been called out, and they had made a “melting pot” society between the two nations?  Would anyone be angry then?  No, you’re angry because it didn’t work out well for the one side.  Actually, getting constantly attacked doesn’t work out well for either side.  Therefore, I cannot believe that the blame is not equal.

    If the Palestinians would have assimilated to the Arab nations, had they offered relocation, education, health care, etc. to these “refugees”, we wouldn’t have this mess today.

    But I reckon you’re a Brit, and having known many over the years, there does seem to be a cumulative Jungian guilt that hangs over the more liberally-minded people I’ve met there.  Just because someone is allied to the U.S. doesn’t immediately make them the guilty party.

    United States Posted by Margaret on Apr 8, 2005 at 11:30 AM

    Seriously?  What are the odds? 

    Be strong LC, don’t take the bait! ;)

    United States Posted by tomkins on Apr 8, 2005 at 11:35 AM

    Any debt you cannot afford is a bad debt.  It’s a matter of proportion, more than the gross sums.  Two significant numbers are all that is necessary. Then the comparisons of private to public debt are equivalent.

    Why do Americans hate math?

    United States Posted by luminous beauty on Apr 8, 2005 at 11:36 AM

    Oh please tell me all y’all are not going to try to determine who is more to blame for the Palestinian/Israeli conflict.  Seems to me there is PLENTY of blame to go around.

    United States Posted by tomkins on Apr 8, 2005 at 11:40 AM

    We hate math because we have the crappiest educational system in the developed world.  Plus, women are not encouraged in math or the hard sciences, at least not in my time in school (graduated 1975).

    I think that’s a great idea to focus in on a point that will catch the public’s attention.  The Republicans did it last election—an overly-simplified statement with a jingoistic phrase to cut the quick of the simple mind, then say it over and over again.  Voila!

    United States Posted by Margaret on Apr 8, 2005 at 11:41 AM

    Tomkins-

    Spot on!

    United States Posted by Margaret on Apr 8, 2005 at 11:42 AM

    A majority? Well that evidently doesn’t include the Settlers, or those who support them, provide them with political support, financial aide, construct their homes, villages, etc, I could go on. I mean if a majority supported two states then there’d be people out in the streets protesting, demanding an end to occupation, dismantling the settlements, etc. So far the only dissent I’ve ever seen have been from the usual lot of marginalised leftists, scholars, dissidents, students, etc
    “If the land is theirs through the will of God, He will give it to them.  That’s what the Bible says will ultimately happen at Armeggedon.  That’s why Western Countries support Israel.”
    Uh no, only a very small group of equally fundamentalist christians in the USA would say yes to that. But fuck them, they also say there earth is only 6,000 years old.
    My memory is a little fuzzy on this but as I recall the Muslim version of Armageddon has Jesus coming down from on hire [remember they believe in him too. They just don’t believe he’s the son of God, he didn’t perform miracles but Gods will simply worked through him, etc], he will take a wife and then… the rest I don’t remember :\
    The British tried to make a solution? hah! It must have been the first time in their colonial history that they were working in the best interest of anyone but themselves. Next you’ll tell me they were working in the Aboriginals best interests when they’d take the “half-cast” children away from their parents. [to list only one example from my own country alone]
    “a ‘melting pot’ society between the two nations?”
    That wouldn’t have happened since only those who practice the Jewish faith in Israel can own land, vote, hold public office, have access to all jobs, etc.
    “If the Palestinians would have assimilated to the Arab nations, had they offered relocation, education, health care, etc. to these “refugees”, we wouldn’t have this mess today.”
    As I previously pointed out they didn’t have the infrustructure to do that for 720,000 or 120,000 or however many refugees, hell they couldn’t even do it for themselves then or now.
    “Just because someone is allied to the U.S. doesn’t immediately make them the guilty party.”
    Nothing to do with being allied with the US, has everything to do with their own crimes while an empire.

    Australia Posted by LamontCranston on Apr 8, 2005 at 11:44 AM

    My apologies.  I clearly did not explain myself very well.  I did not mean to simply compare private and public debt.  My point is to compare the limitations high public debt can cause with the more personally felt and understood problems caused by personal debt.  Most everyone can relate to personal debt, but, apparently, not so much with the public debt.  By linking the former with the latter, we, particularly Americans, might better be able to see and appreciate the problem.

    United States Posted by tomkins on Apr 8, 2005 at 11:53 AM

    that $47trillion I listed is the total wealth of the USA: meaning you tomkins, bill gates, george h.w. bush, every single mine, the oil under ANWR, etc. So yes the $43trillion debt has a very personal sting to it.

    Australia Posted by LamontCranston on Apr 8, 2005 at 11:57 AM

    Yes, Margaret if the Palestinians would just acquiesce to Israeli force they wouldn’t be a problem.

    The Palestinians didn’t leave their homes because the Arab nations “called them out”, but because Israeli Commandos were banging on their doors and telling them to leave or else. 

    What do you mean the Israelis were there first?  The Palestinians have inhabited the land of Palestine for tens of thousands of years.

    United States Posted by luminous beauty on Apr 8, 2005 at 11:57 AM

    In other words, the total assets of the USA.

    Australia Posted by LamontCranston on Apr 8, 2005 at 11:59 AM

    Lamont,

    http://www.imra.org.il/story.php3?id=24798

    Most Israelis support the new plan on disengagement from the West Bank and Gaza.  They do, however, at 1/4 of the population, think the settlers have the right to resist.  I believe that is a mathematical minority.

    Of course I don’t believe in Empire or the things that our predecessors, Britain, France, the Netherlands, etc. did in India, Africa, Asia, America, for that matter.  I am dead set against this Bush-empire building, or I wouldn’t be knocking the hell out of neocons when they try to screw up our thread.

    My point is that there is more than enough blame to go around, and I do get tired of hearing how ONLY the Jews are responsible.  Frankly, I think there will never be peace in the Middle East, but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t try to facilitate peace and fairness.  And the only fair solution is that they both have sovereign borders and absolute self-rule.

    United States Posted by Margaret on Apr 8, 2005 at 11:59 AM

    I guess my college professor who moved to Israel in ‘48 doesn’t know what he’s talking about.  My information only came from him and online sources, so I guess that only the Palestinians have the right story.

    Also, the Jews possessed the land in approx. 4,000 BC.  Think that pretty well predates the Palestinians.

    And your comment about acquiescense is your own fabrication.  I never said anything of the kind.  Both have rights, both have to learn to live with each other in respecting those rights.  Why is that so hard for you to admit?

    United States Posted by Margaret on Apr 8, 2005 at 12:04 PM

    Well one step towards peace in the middle-east would be to stop supporting the dictators, stop providing them political amnesty & support, stop selling them bullets & gun & tanks & fighters & attack helicopters [ask the Kurds in s.e. Turkey how much fun they’ve had with them]. I think if we stop supporting the dictators we might begin moving in the right direction.

    Australia Posted by LamontCranston on Apr 8, 2005 at 12:04 PM

    “Also, the Jews possessed the land in approx. 4,000 BC.  Think that pretty well predates the Palestinians.”
    That claim didn’t work for the native-americans, the australian-aboriginals or anyone else.

    Australia Posted by LamontCranston on Apr 8, 2005 at 12:07 PM

    Lamont,

    I couldn’t agree with you more.  That’s why we need to get this meathead-for-a-president out NOW!  I know you’re an Aussie, but if you’ve dealt much with Americans, they mostly don’t want to know.  You cannot understand how frustrating it has been for us non-neocons) this last 5 years, trying to stop the new “Empire”.  I am afraid that it already too late, as stated in Mr. Johnson’s article.

    United States Posted by Margaret on Apr 8, 2005 at 12:10 PM

    You’re right, that claim didn’t work for those groups.  And it is tragic.  But the difference is that after 2,000 years of being spread across the globe, the Hebrews did remain a united and cohesive nation, without land.  If the other groups mentioned duplicate the same feat, I wonder if they’d get the same response (I do genuinely wonder, I am not being snide)?  At this point, the Israeli’s are the only ones in the history of the world to have done that.

    United States Posted by Margaret on Apr 8, 2005 at 12:13 PM

    The Australian-Aboriginals are still in cohesive groups. The Native-Americans certainly are still in cohesive groups all across the western hemisphere with the exception of the Caribbean islands where the local populations were completely obliterated by the Spanish. The Kurds are still in cohesive groups. What’s left of the Chagosians are still in a cohesive group on the island of Marisha, etc, etc, etc.
    Except none of them became politically and financially active in working towards their goal at the end of the 19th century [except the Chagosians since they weren’t displaced until 1971]. And could you imagine the USA granting the Indians their own totally independent nation? Hell will freeze over before that happens.
    And they’re not the only ones. After the entire ethnic Chechnyan population was sent to central-Asia - Siberia & Kazakhstan - at the beginning of the 1950s they were allowed to return to the Caucas region and their homes in the early-mid 1960s

    Australia Posted by LamontCranston on Apr 8, 2005 at 12:25 PM

    Greater Israel existed historically for ~70yrs during the reigns of kings Saul, David, and Solomon.  Even then Jews were a minority ruling class over the people of Canaan, even in Judea.  The Palestinian people are descendants of the Canaanites, Jews converted to Islam in the 1st Jihad, Samaritans, Genesees, Nazarenes and other tribal groups that have lived there from the time of the first human settlements .
    It’s not so much differing historical facts as confusing the names of political power with demographics.

    United States Posted by luminous beauty on Apr 8, 2005 at 12:25 PM

    Lamont:

    The Indians may yet end up owning the whole shebang again.  In this part of the Northwest US, Indian Casinos are about the only economic engine going.

    United States Posted by luminous beauty on Apr 8, 2005 at 12:37 PM

    L.B.-
    Abraham was given Canaan for the Israelis in apprx. 4000 BC.  If you read God’s promise to him, he is given that land for the Hebrews, as a nation.

    Lamont-
    No, I can’t imagine that.  We just let them have casinos.  Actually, I thought it was great that the Red Lake Nation recently kept reporters out after the tragic shootings.  I also think it’s great that they self-govern and self-police (to the degree that they are allowed).

    Years ago I attended the University of Heidelberg in then W. Germany.  Reagan came to power at the time and I had to be constantly attacked by European progressives, because they are used to the “I don’t want to know” variety American.  Now, I didn’t mind because I knew they couldn’t go up to Reagan personally and yell at him, so I was the nearest thing.  Even though I’m a lifelong Democrat and progressive, that never sufficed.

    What puzzles me about you two is that I say Israel does have a hand in the guilt, that the US shouldn’t support fascist regimes, but it doesn’t seem to be enough unless I say death to the Jews for you guys.  If you are actually just anit-Semitic, please let me know and I will stop.  At that point, it would be fruitless to talk about anti-fascism.

    United States Posted by Margaret on Apr 8, 2005 at 12:43 PM

    Seriously.  The Palestinian/Israeli conflict?  You want to point fingers and assign blame about that??  You could not pick a less constructive, less helpful topic.

    United States Posted by tomkins on Apr 8, 2005 at 12:53 PM

    Tomkins,

    What do you want to discuss?  I have 30 minutes before I get out of here, and work is slow today.

    United States Posted by Margaret on Apr 8, 2005 at 12:57 PM

    Yeah well property law doesn’t cover Gods bequeathing land. Deal with it.
    And once again, if so much of the Israeli population is against settlements, for two states, etc why aren’t they doing anything? Why aren’t the electing politicians and governments that will comply with their wishes? Why aren’t they burning draft-cards in mass-protests? Why aren’t they out in the streets? Why aren’t they forming human shields around Palestinian homes and villages that are targeted for the construction of more Settlements? Where is this silent-majority you speak of?
    I already provided a dictionary quote concerning the allegation of “anti-Semitism”. You want to claim a belief in equal & honest treatment for all is anti-Semitic, then that’s your business.
    You, and indeed many others, say Israel has a right to a state and all that - although you’re the first I’ve met that blames treaties from the end of WW1 on the Palestinians and somehow expect them to comply to a treaty they never read, never wrote & never signed – no denying that, so do the Palestinians have a right to a state. But then you all also say consistently say the Palestinians must bow do, make concessions, live on increasingly smaller and smaller parcels of heavily restricted land or move to other nations, bend over and say please, etc. And oh no, no, no they mustn’t get angry, mustn’t get upset, must stay peaceful and in servitude. So basically its peace, ‘coexistence’, and all that on The Masters conditions. Just like apartheid South-Africa.

    Australia Posted by LamontCranston on Apr 8, 2005 at 1:05 PM

    You know, if those niggers hadn’t been so uppity and made so many unreasonable demands, they all could have gotten along peacefully and coexisted quite beautifully.
    So long as they all knew their place.

    Australia Posted by LamontCranston on Apr 8, 2005 at 1:18 PM

    Lamont, Lamont, Lamont…

    I never said any of those things.  I’m saying they both need to own up.  You know, everyone wears glasses that color their worldview.  I just wish you’d quit putting your glasses on me and listen to what I say, not what you think.


    “You want to claim a belief in equal & honest treatment for all is anti-Semitic, then that’s your business.” 

    I never said that, you did.  When it can ALL ONLY BE THE FAULT OF THE JEWS, that is racism. That is anti-Semitic, because many times the Palestians are to blame.  Many times, the Jews are to blame.  What are you not getting here?
    I was only asking if, in fact, your repeated statements catering only to grief suffered by Palestinians were made because you have no interest in the Israelis getting a fair deal.  Because through my glasses, that is all I read from you and LB.  “Kill the Jews” and then it will be fair?

    By the way, why aren’t people in Australia protesting and rioting over the re-election of John Howard? Had any massive protests lately for the aborigines.  I was startled to see how they live when I was there 3 years ago.  Not too many people chaining themselves to trees in protest, I’m sure, and that is NOT poking fun at Australia.  I love Australia, I love Britain, too.  But for the same reason they’re not doing it in either of your countries, the same reasons in Tel Aviv.  People focus on their little individual lives and till something directly effects them, it’s not important enough to put one’s self on the line for.  Didn’t notice Blair’s poll ratings are low enough to get him kicked out in Britain, either.  He may deserve it, but the people in Britain are like the people in Australia, are like the people in America are like the people in Israel.  Too busy with life, let someone else take care of it.

    United States Posted by Margaret on Apr 8, 2005 at 1:25 PM

    The uppity thing was ridiculous.  I am married to a native American, we have 3 couples in our immediate family where the husband is black and the wife is white, and I spoil all my nieces and nephews equally.  Shame on you.

    United States Posted by Margaret on Apr 8, 2005 at 1:35 PM

    Its satire.

    Australia Posted by LamontCranston on Apr 8, 2005 at 1:39 PM

    The Israelis are the ones with an elected representative government, a high standard of living & education, a first-rate military; an army, an air force, a navy; Abrams tanks, F-16 fight-jets, AH-64 Apache attack-helicopters, submarines, etc. Near total political support and amnesty provided by the USA, etc. So you’ll forgive me if I think they tend to shoulder a small infinitesimal fraction of additional blame.
    You’re right about Australia, the sad thing is it seems 50+% percent of the population agree with what’s going on. But you said much of the Israelis population want an end to settlements, want two separate states, you said only 1/3rd think the settlers should be able to stay and fight or something like that. So you say this and I quite rightly ask where are these people?
    There was a mass-protest for Aborigines a few months back; on an isolated island off the coast of Queensland, 17 police officers were almost incinerated when they locked themselves inside the police-station after the Aboriginals decided to take their anger out on them by setting it on fire after yet another death-in-custody on the island.
    I wonder if the anger and frustration they felt then is similar to what the Palestinians feel…?

    Australia Posted by LamontCranston on Apr 8, 2005 at 1:40 PM

    Point taken.

    I have enjoyed our conversation.  You and LB and many others have a lot of important information to share, even if we don’t always agree.

    Have a great weekend!  Have a great life!

    Let’s get Bush out of office!!!!!

    United States Posted by Margaret on Apr 8, 2005 at 1:42 PM

    what point is taken?

    Australia Posted by LamontCranston on Apr 8, 2005 at 1:45 PM

    Re: death-in-custody.
    For those who don’t know, Aboriginal men in Queensland, the Northern Territory, South Australia and territorial islands have a real nasty habit of contracting some rare disease where soon after being taken into police custody and put in the lock-up over night or for a few hours or whatever they die suddenly often times over period of several hours and in immense pain with their bodies covered in lesions, bruises and with broken bones, etc but without a finger ever being lain on them, especially by the fine upstanding gentlemen in the police force.
    The rest of the Aboriginal population, as well as certain members of the Australian population foolish enough to be taken in by leftist propaganda are convinced that these men have infact often times been beaten to death while in police custody. How dare they besmirch the good name of our police force!
    You can understand the Aboriginals believing that; they’re violent, irrational brutal savages… but for the Australians well they’re either rabble-rousers from outside looking to find fault in every good deed we Australians do or they’re the gullible who’ll believe anything.


    And for those of you with malfunctioning satire-detection glands, this was indeed satire. [And if you know of another way to deal with the current state of affairs I’d like to hear it]

    Australia Posted by LamontCranston on Apr 8, 2005 at 3:42 PM

    >Given the history of slavery in the United States and the degree to which the final document was adjusted to accommodate American concerns, our walkout seemed to be yet another display of imperial arrogance—a bald-faced message that “we” do not need “you” to run this world.<
    Actually our walk out seems to me to confirm that you can get people to stop posturing if you refuse to respond to their games, that successful diplomacy is sometimes based on NOT talking. After all, we got what we wanted by refusing to lend credence to the absurd positions of the Arab tyrants who wanted to equate Zionism with Naziism.

    With regard to the article’s dismay over trade and budgetary deficits: The same predictions were pounded home incessantly in the 1970s. I remember Gore Vidal confidently predicting that by 1980, Tokyo would replace New York as the financial capital of the world because of our large debt to the Japanese. The predictions could conceivably come true this time, but I wouldn’t count on it. I suspect when you are as predominant economically as the US is and will continue to me, the regular rules don’t apply. And though that might just be my blind faith in the resilience of this economy, it is no more blind than the blind (not to say hopeful) pessimism of the writer and much of the reactionary left.

    United States Posted by Mitch on Apr 8, 2005 at 9:43 PM

    “Carl Jung, one of the fathers of psychology, famously remarked that ‘people cannot stand too much reality.’ What you’re about to read may challenge your assumptions about the kind of world we live in, and especially the kind of world into which events are propelling us. We are in for a rough ride through uncharted territory.”
    Think Mr. Chalmers Johnson is wrong? Read this:
    http://www.countercurrents.org/po-kunster280305.htm

    United States Posted by LeoL on Apr 9, 2005 at 4:01 AM

    I’ve posted these 3 before and so I can’t be bothered finding new links:
    http://www.morganstanley.com/GEFdata/digests/20050318-fri.html#anchor0
    http://www.financialsense.com/fsu/editorials/charting/2005/0302.html
    http://www.gao.gov/cghome/intergovchallenge.pdf

    Australia Posted by LamontCranston on Apr 9, 2005 at 4:05 AM

    Lamont said:

    “The United States of America is not a dictatorship; it is not Nazi-Germany, Imperial-Japan, the Soviet Union, North Korea, China, Iraq, etc. America is a country where the people determine the government and as such can and should be held equally accountable for not taking action when the government they have elected and represents them does the wrong thing by its own laws, international laws, treaties, etc.”

    Lamont, listen carefully.  Do you hear that?  It’s the sound of your credibility flying south.

    Canada Posted by Lefty on Apr 9, 2005 at 9:51 AM

    Thelonius wrote:

    “Israel existed prior to creation of the State of Israel, it existed within Palestine.  Israelis and Palestinians peacefully co-existed for centurys before the State of Israel was created.  The differences between “pre State” and “post State” Israel are ethnic and political, the conflict is Arab vs. European and culture vs. policy.

    Arab Israelis and Palestinians are cousins and tolerated each others religious and cultural differences.  If European Jews had merely immigrated to Palestine and assimilated into the existing Israeli population instead of evicting the non-Jewish citizens and imposing an ethnic policy over culture, Israelis new and old would not have needed protection from Palestines’ neighbors.”

    Yeah right!  And if monkeys could fly the Wizard of Oz would be a true story.

    First, the nation of Israel existed 1,000 years before the Romans called it “Palestine.”  Second, the British and Arabs fought emigration of Jewish refugees both before and after the holocaust.  The only solution for the refugees was the creation of a sovereign state, which did not exist there before the Jews created one.

    Nice try.

    Canada Posted by Lefty on Apr 9, 2005 at 11:04 AM

    “It’s the sound of your credibility flying south.”
    Anyone who calls the USA a free and open democracy has no credibility? Well that’s an interesting theory I’ll give it that.

    And you do not refute the fact that they were living together peacefully and equally and freely until the British began meddling.

    Australia Posted by LamontCranston on Apr 9, 2005 at 11:10 AM

    “And once again, if so much of the Israeli population is against settlements, for two states, etc why aren’t they doing anything? Why aren’t the electing politicians and governments that will comply with their wishes? Why aren’t they burning draft-cards in mass-protests? Why aren’t they out in the streets? Why aren’t they forming human shields around Palestinian homes and villages that are targeted for the construction of more Settlements?”

    A.  Because freedom loving democrats don’t have sympathy for suicide bombing terrorists.
    B.  Because obstruction of justice is a crime and democrats have respect for the rule of law.
    C.  Because they would more likely than not be attacked by those they were trying to protect.
    D.  All of the above.

    Canada Posted by Lefty on Apr 11, 2005 at 6:12 AM

    “Anyone who calls the USA a free and open democracy . . .”

    A.  Has no credibility.
    B.  Thinks that TV commercials are informative.
    C.  Should admit themselves into the nearest booby hatch.
    D.  All of the above.

    Canada Posted by Lefty on Apr 11, 2005 at 6:16 AM

    “Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power.” - Benito Mussolini

    Now Lamont, for the win, which country in the World has the most complete merger of state and corporate power?

    A.  The U.S.
    B.  The U.S.
    C.  The U.S.
    D.  All of the above.

    Canada Posted by Lefty on Apr 11, 2005 at 6:23 AM

    “A.  Because freedom loving democrats don’t have sympathy for suicide bombing terrorists.
    B.  Because obstruction of justice is a crime and democrats have respect for the rule of law.
    C.  Because they would more likely than not be attacked by those they were trying to protect.
    D.  All of the above.”
    How would any of these things happen if they had peaceful non-violent protests? How would any of these things happen if they elected politicians that reflected their views & values - pulling out of Palestine, etc? And calling the settlement program justice is sickening; you probably think Arial Sharon is a great man.
    Are you saying extremists & fundamentalists in Israel - i.e. the settlers & others with fundamentalist views - would attack them? Because I have yet to hear of anyone from the international solidarity groups or the Israeli solidarity groups get attacked by the Palestinians [being attacked by the IDF and/or the Jewish-Settlers is another matter, particularly for those from Israel or who practice the Jewish faith].

    Australia Posted by LamontCranston on Apr 11, 2005 at 7:57 AM

    some more on economic meltdown:
    http://www.counterpunch.org/whitney04082005.html

    Australia Posted by LamontCranston on Apr 11, 2005 at 10:08 AM

    “How would any of these things happen if they had peaceful non-violent protests? How would any of these things happen if they elected politicians that reflected their views & values - pulling out of Palestine, etc? And calling the settlement program justice is sickening; you probably think Arial Sharon is a great man.
    Are you saying extremists & fundamentalists in Israel - i.e. the settlers & others with fundamentalist views - would attack them? Because I have yet to hear of anyone from the international solidarity groups or the Israeli solidarity groups get attacked by the Palestinians [being attacked by the IDF and/or the Jewish-Settlers is another matter, particularly for those from Israel or who practice the Jewish faith].”

    FLAP FLAP FLAP - the sound of Lamont’s reason flying south with his credibility.  Lamont you have made so may rediculous, preposterous comments in such a short space that I just don’t have the patience to respond to them all.

    Canada Posted by Lefty on Apr 12, 2005 at 4:41 AM

    Answer the question.

    Australia Posted by LamontCranston on Apr 12, 2005 at 10:31 AM

    Margaret, you recently said something about how you’ve been kicking butt on right wingers that show up on ITT threads. (Also, a while back one of your crowd said something about the right wingers taking off when they meet a real challenge.)

    I wonder, while you’re taking credit for beating up on the right, if you’ve happened to let on to your comrades here that you are prone to complaining to management about those that differ with you?

    (By the way, dealing with that bottomless-pit-of-ignorance Lamont regarding Israel is giving you a taste of what it is like to deal with the home crowd here on an ITT thread. It was quite humorous to observe!)

    United States Posted by you know who! on Apr 13, 2005 at 6:02 PM

    Well looks whose back. Watching from the wings for his star return!
    Comrades? I think not.

    “that bottomless-pit-of-ignorance Lamont”
    You are of course free to refute anything I say whenever you please.

    Australia Posted by LamontCranston on Apr 13, 2005 at 6:09 PM

    USA military foreign policy is the biggest terrorist threat in the world.

    United States Posted by zach on Apr 13, 2005 at 6:56 PM

    Lefty,

    “Fascism should more appropriately be called Corporatism because it is a merger of state and corporate power.” - Benito Mussolini

    Now Lamont, for the win, which country in the World has the most complete merger of state and corporate power?

    A.  The U.S.
    B.  The U.S.
    C.  The U.S.
    D.  All of the above

    This is a statement I can agree with you on…I can name two off the type of my head that is trying to run the U.S. Government…Businessman George Soros and Ketchup Lady Heinz….using their Billions to try and control the U.S. of A.

    Italy Posted by JM_64 on Apr 13, 2005 at 8:51 PM

    USA military foreign policy is the biggest terrorist threat in the world.


    Can you please explain this comment using facts and a solid hypothesis?

    Italy Posted by JM_64 on Apr 13, 2005 at 8:56 PM

    Brian,

    Considering your posts on polls. I did some internet research on polling. Even professional pollsters admit that polling is no more than “witchcraft” at best and has no scientific ability to “predict” the future. I personally would find a better source than polling to backup my assertions….but that’s just me.

    Italy Posted by JM_64 on Apr 13, 2005 at 9:17 PM

    Lamont,

    Well polls were all the evidence people needed in the Ukrain… even the Bush administration quoted them, so you just agreed that the Bush administration is neither sane nor rational.

    Take this for what it’s worth….Ukrainian citizens during WWII welcomed the Germans as liberators.

    Italy Posted by JM_64 on Apr 13, 2005 at 9:21 PM

    Its like I’ve only had 2 hours sleep for the last 3 days and the damn alarm goes off. Oh, my head. I’ve been dreaming of JM_64 for some ungodly reason. There must be a heaven, I think, because I hear Dante laughing…“Ha Ha…He’s back” I struggle to sit up and there he is…NO! its not JM_64!...Its J Craig, spewing words that sound like someone pounding on an empty drum next to my ear. The words are full of sound and fury yet as empty as the drum, and as jaring as rap music turned up to high volume. I fly from the room to escape…

    United States Posted by Merlin on Apr 13, 2005 at 10:04 PM

    Wwoods,

    JM,if the Republican politicians spent as much time enforcing taxation upon the rich as do devising schemes to let the rich keep their money through tax cuts that don’t stimulate the economy(don’t tell me about all the"manufacturing jobs” Bush created,hamburger jobs are not manufacturing despite republican deception),perhaps you wouldn’t have to pay so much in taxes.

    Q:What is taxation percentage on a minimum wage worker?

    A:22-25%

    Assuming the average minimum worker is taxed on $10K…a fulltime minimum wage worker earns between $14K-$15k a year and after deductions their tax is approximately 10%.... http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1040tt.pdf


    Q:what is the taxation percentage upon the billionaire CEO who employs that worker?

    A:31%

    1 sounds kinda high. It should be more around 15-20% and can you show me a copy of a billionaire CEO tax return please?

    And the rich in this country have the nerve to gripe about their taxes?My God,the arrogance and ingratitude.Especially when one considers the amount of political access they have derived from wealth.

    This is just an all around stupid comment. Sorry.

    Whether or not JM is J Craig,one thing is certain.JM has also been suckered into believing the big lie"side with the rich because you may be rich too one day”.

    Nope, just living day to day like everbody else so quit trying to take more of my money thru taxes.

    What are the chances of one suddenly becoming rich?

    Actually you have two chances:

    SLIM and FAT!

    Have no inkling of why you posted this. It has nothing to do with anything


    Faced with those odds,some still have the naivety,gullibility,temerity,or stupidity to vote republican?I should get out of teaching and sell stupid crap on infomercials and make a fortune.However,unlike republicans,I have a sense of decency.

    You sound like my dumbass ex-wife. When Bush gave his first $300 tax cut back to families, she called me up and asked me why she didn’t get any money. I told her you would have had to pay taxes to get that $300 back. My ex doesn’t pay any taxes. My ex gets more tax money back than she puts in and she doesn’t have to claim my $7k a year child support, for one kid, as income and I can’t claim that $7k a year on my income. So dude, come out of lala land and join the rest of us.

    Italy Posted by JM_64 on Apr 13, 2005 at 10:10 PM

    Lamont,

    well does a federal debt of $43trillion dollars - 45% owed to the rest of the world - and a wealth of $47trillion dollars conjur up apropriate emotional reactions?

    Maybe the next time we have a 9-11 our Government can let the world collapse into a depression. I wish someone on here could REALLY explain how our government loans/borrows money to/from other nations. Apparently Mr. Cranston doesn’t. Can a money expert please explain how we can give billions to Indonesia after an earthquake when we are already in debt, according to you guys, to the point of bankruptcy??

    Italy Posted by JM_64 on Apr 13, 2005 at 10:21 PM

    Lummy,

    Sounds interesting.  Inspires me to recommend the book I’m reading now; “Pocahontas: Medicine Woman, Spy, Entrepreneur, Diplomat” by Paula Gunn Allen.

    You really should read books on fact…not fiction…

    Italy Posted by JM_64 on Apr 13, 2005 at 10:25 PM

    Lamont,

    That claim didn’t work for the native-americans, the australian-aboriginals or anyone else.

    You’re showing your ignorance of American history. Assuming you are an Aussie, why in the h..e…double toothpicks are you so into American politics and history? Don’t you have enough problems in your own country to worry about than the U.S. of A.? If you are not an American, I’ll agree with you disagreeing with American politics or doctrine, but do not criticize my country when you aren’t even a citizen.

    Italy Posted by JM_64 on Apr 13, 2005 at 10:33 PM

    Its like I’ve only had 2 hours sleep for the last 3 days and the damn alarm goes off. Oh, my head. I’ve been dreaming of JM_64 for some ungodly reason. There must be a heaven, I think, because I hear Dante laughing…“Ha Ha…He’s back” I struggle to sit up and there he is…NO! its not JM_64!...Its J Craig, spewing words that sound like someone pounding on an empty drum next to my ear. The words are full of sound and fury yet as empty as the drum, and as jaring as rap music turned up to high volume. I fly from the room to escape…

    United States Posted by Merlin on Apr 13, 2005 at 10:48 PM

    Lamont,

    “that bottomless-pit-of-ignorance Lamont”
    You are of course free to refute anything I say whenever you please.

    and so are you able to refute..and I see you aren’t refuting his observation of your ignorance….

    Italy Posted by JM_64 on Apr 13, 2005 at 11:42 PM

    Merlin,

    Its like I’ve only had 2 hours sleep for the last 3 days and the damn alarm goes off. Oh, my head. I’ve been dreaming of JM_64 for some ungodly reason. There must be a heaven, I think, because I hear Dante laughing…“Ha Ha…He’s back” I struggle to sit up and there he is…NO! its not JM_64!...Its J Craig, spewing words that sound like someone pounding on an empty drum next to my ear. The words are full of sound and fury yet as empty as the drum, and as jaring as rap music turned up to high volume. I fly from the room to escape…

    You remind me of Dem politicians…you see their mouths move but you can’t hear what they are saying…just talking because they like to hear themselves talk…

    Italy Posted by JM_64 on Apr 13, 2005 at 11:48 PM

    What’s that smell?

    United States Posted by luminous beauty on Apr 14, 2005 at 5:05 AM

    Wow

    JM wants to protect Ceo’s who’s income increase
    100, 200, 300, even 400%
    in one year

    If you tax the “rich” even triple what it is now
    not one of them will be homeless
    they will still have food
    and three cars
    and botox


    $1,500 out of 15,000 (10%)
    is a lot of food
    esp. when your wages haven’t increased in years

    “Nope, just living day to day like everybody elseso quit trying to take more of my money through taxes”

    “...$7K a year child support….”

    Not like everybody else
    Nobody wants your money
    You poor, misguided individual


    “Can a money expert please explain how we(?) can give billions to indonesia after an earthquake when we are already in debt…..”


    It doesen’t take an expert
    If I own my own bank
    I can do what I want
    even at the expense of others who
    have to use it too

    We’re going bankrupt all right
    We’ve lost all our common sense

    Sincerely,
    RB

    United States Posted by R.B. on Apr 14, 2005 at 10:17 AM

    Lummy,


    What’s that smell?

    Maybe you should have taken a bath this week…you women need to take care of yourselves on a daily basis…didn’t your mother teach you anything?

    Italy Posted by JM_64 on Apr 14, 2005 at 11:21 AM

    R.B.,

    If you can’t add anything intelligent or constructive to the conversation, puhleese stay out of the thread. Your post did not help the naysayers at ITT. Sorry.

    Italy Posted by JM_64 on Apr 14, 2005 at 11:24 AM

    “That claim didn’t work for the native-americans, the australian-aboriginals or anyone else.
    You’re showing your ignorance of American history. Assuming you are an Aussie, why in the h..e…double toothpicks are you so into American politics and history? Don’t you have enough problems in your own country to worry about than the U.S. of A.? If you are not an American, I’ll agree with you disagreeing with American politics or doctrine, but do not criticize my country when you aren’t even a citizen.”
    You mean land wasn’t taken from the Natives? They weren’t driven from their homes? They weren’t entirely exterminated? Which of these things did not happen to the Native-Americans on a grand scale? You’ve commented on the Palestinian/Israeli conflict - are you a Palestinian? An Israeli? Perhaps even a Jewish-Settler? If you are then by your logic only then can you comment on this topic, but then if you were any of these things that would disqualify you from commenting on the USA wouldn’t it.
    If you or I were to criticises Portugal for some aspect of its foreign policy, or for its past mistreatment of the native population in its colonies, would that make us Anti-Portuguese & critical of the citizenry OR would we simply be critzing some aspect of its foreign policy or its past mistreatment of the native population in its colonies?
    You’re making the grand old conservative leap in illogic where by to criticize a government, or a governmental policy, or to some past misdeed done to someone or a group of people, or an entire nation of people, is inherent criticism of the countries citizenry – WHICH IT IS NOT - half the time I suspect you lot don’t even mean it but just play this game to put off your challengers, like that “support the troops” shtick.
    “and so are you able to refute..and I see you aren’t refuting his observation of your ignorance….”
    What is there to refute? There is nothing to refute because the man (child? teenager?) says nothing to refute because he says nothing at all.
    I do focus quite a bit on my own country, but since Australia is not the topic of discussion here I haven’t gone into great detail about it.
    My reasons for commenting are, but not limited too: Your countries dominance of the world; if this were 1905 I’d be focused on Britain, France & the other European Powers. And so because of this, and what your country does to the environment, I find it necessary to keep up with your countries politics, believe me I wish I didn’t. Once you’re no longer striving for Empire and no longer fucking up the environment you can become a 3rd world religious theocracy for all I care.
    As I recall the US government initially donated $23million, a drop in the ocean, and as I recall it was not a donation but a loan. The money is initially paid for by the American people, it is then added to the crippling debt the Indonesians already have thanks to Suharto for them to pay back along with the interest. On a side note the Indonesian debt, all run up during Suhartos reign, and now being paid for by the people of Indonesia, is roughly the same as the entire wealth of the Suharto family, $9billion of which is in Australian banks alone, fun that isn’t it.

    Australia Posted by LamontCranston on Apr 14, 2005 at 11:25 AM

    Meanwhile JM_64 here is degenerating into personal insults.

    Australia Posted by LamontCranston on Apr 14, 2005 at 11:28 AM
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