What Washington Post editor Zofia Smardz dubbed “Opiniongate” began when columnist and commentator Susan Estrich sent a letter to Los Angeles Times editorial page editor Michael Kinsley criticizing the gender inequity on his Op-Ed pages. Since then, women and men alike have been waxing punditic on the topic in print and online. When the (only female) New York Times Op-Ed… return to article
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Reader Comments (32)Page 1 of 1 pagesDoes this goal also apply to conservative women or only liberal ones?
Posted by U Scare Me on Apr 22, 2005 at 11:22 AM Susan Estrich is a conservative commentator for Fox News, which is why she has issues with the LA Times. Gee, do you get the feeling that lefty & U Scare Me aren’t supportive of feminism? My favorite definition of feminism: The radical notion that women are people too.
My husband used to be bored by feminist issues also, then his teenage daughter started dressing and talking like the standard female role-models provided on TV. Now he wishes he’d paid attention. The next generation of women need to look out and see women in broadcasting, women in uniform, women in business in order to believe that they have these options. That being the sluttiest around is not the only avenue to advancement.
Of course, perhaps the right-wing wants girls to have that perspective???
Posted by shogrenl on Apr 22, 2005 at 12:37 PM Of course they do. You can’t maintain a patriarchal society if women have solid self-esteem. Better to keep them cute & perky when they’re young....and hopeless & depressed when they’re not so ‘cute & perky’ anymore. If a woman thinks she has self-worth, she might not be so dependant on men. Thought control is power.
Posted by Brighid Rose on Apr 22, 2005 at 1:42 PM Shogrenl,
***Susan Estrich is a conservative commentator for Fox News, which is why she has issues with the LA Times.***
Let’s start by examining the biography of the conservative Fox News contributor, Susan Estrich:
Special Assistant, Senator Edward M. Kennedy, 1980-81; Lecturer, Harvard Law School, 1980-81; Executive Director, Democratic National Platform Committee, 1984; Senior Policy Advisor, Mondale-Ferraro Campaign, 1984; Assistant Professor of Law, 1981-86, Harvard Law School; Of Counsel, Tuttle & Taylor, 1986-87; National Campaign Manager, Dukakis for President Campaign, 1987-88. Susan continues to serve in an advisory capacity to the DNC and advises my top Democratic candidates.
Referring to Susan Estrich as a conservative is like calling Maureen Dowd a Neocon.
Susan Estrich may very well become a Republican after she has been attacked so viscously by liberals for doing what? Standing up and speaking up about the unfair treatment of women by the LA Times and being on Fox News. This is what I love about the liberal elite…do as I say, not as I do.Where I see the most explicit examples of the exploitation of women is in areas hardly associated with conservatives. Hollywood, Hip-Hop music and the fashion industry.
***That being the sluttiest around is not the only avenue to advancement.
Of course, perhaps the right-wing wants girls to have that perspective???***
I believe it was the previous Commander In Chief that liked to surround himself with sluts. The only problem I have with the Feminist movement is when it excludes conservative women. In your definition, is it possible for a woman to be a role model and conservative? Can you look at Sec of State Albright and Sec of State Rice and be equally proud of their contributions as role models to young women? If not, you are swimming in a sea named Hypocrisy.
Posted by U Scare Me on Apr 22, 2005 at 1:50 PM Hi USM,
You question:
“ The only problem I have with the Feminist movement is when it excludes conservative women. In your definition, is it possible for a woman to be a role model and conservative? Can you look at Sec of State Albright and Sec of State Rice and be equally proud of their contributions as role models to young women?”I am a strong progressive/liberal, and a man. I have no problem with Rice or Albright as a role model. I dislike and reject their political position and don’t believe they are good to have as political leaders because of that. Their political belief has nothing to do with their success in achieving their goals in a sexist, male dominated society. That they have the courage to succeed, I admire and applaud.
Why do you confuse role model with political belief? One has nothing to do with the other. The same question could be asked about men! However, it never is. I admire Bush for achieving his goal successfully, yet I despise him for what I see him and his neocon administration doing to our country and the world.
Are you really confused about this really obvious difference, or are you just provoking an argument?
Posted by Merlin on Apr 22, 2005 at 5:31 PM “Susan Estrich may very well become a Republican after she has been attacked so viscously by liberals for doing what?”
Then she is a spineless moron like the rest of the GOP (Read Zell “Psychopath” Miller).
Posted by Lefty on Apr 23, 2005 at 6:16 AM Unfortunately,our young women are being taught that their only worth are as sex objects.So maybe we should dispence with all the conservetive vs liberal bickering,and figure out how to change that.
Posted by whats the truth? on Apr 23, 2005 at 4:12 PM Susan Estrich is a conservative commentator for Fox News, which is why she has issues with the LA Times
Wow - what color is the sky on your planet?
Posted by Campesino on Apr 23, 2005 at 10:22 PM re: whatsthetruth-It’s no wonder we have pathetic no-talents dominating our culture. They are the only people these girls watch on TV/read about in the gossip rags and want to emulate. They believe and defend that the only way to be accpeted in life is to copy-cat them on every level. It’s high-time we advocate for some smart, quality entertainment, art, fashion, music and even literature to dominate our culture again--and I don’t mean reality shows (ALL are EXPLOITATIVE) and “pink books.” Cost excuses my ass. I’m more than willing to pay for anything of substance, feeding MINDS above BODIES. More female journalists of opinion would really help, too.
Posted by mymind on Apr 24, 2005 at 2:06 AM In our local high school,I’ve heard from the son of a friend of mine,that for 10$,oral sex can be had out behind the school,apparently from a variety of girls.Also,a group of girls did a dance routine at a show that the school put on that could only be described as a strip tease.And it was one of the teachers who helped them choriograph it.None of the parents protested it in any way.Our schools are actively teaching our girls to be strippers and prostitutes.Is it any wonder that our kids are lost.
Posted by whats the truth? on Apr 24, 2005 at 9:20 AM To USM,the conservative elite have the same ‘do as I say,not as I do’mentality,so whats your point?
Posted by whats the truth? on Apr 24, 2005 at 10:41 AM Merlin,
We are obviously from different political perspectives, but apparently agree here. I’m not at all confused by being a role model for young women and having different political viewpoints. I have 3 very progressive/feminist women in my life. They can’t seem to separate role model with political viewpoint. I was curious if liberals could differentiate. You’ve answered that question.
By the way, I was in fact trying to provoke a debate. These blogs are more fun and informative with opposing banter.Lefty,
You may have a few anger issues to deal with. Does your bias only extend to conservatives or other groups of people as well? May want to get that checked out.what’s the truth?,
I’m with you this should not be a conservative/liberal issue. I’m all for looking for anything that diverts our children from the likes of viewing a teacher sponsored striptease act in school, or oral sex for money. The thing I find most disturbing is your comment, “None of the parents protested it in any way.” It all starts with the parents. Very sad.***To USM,the conservative elite have the same ‘do as I say,not as I do’mentality,so whats your point?***
Here I must disagree with you. I see more hypocrisy from the left than on the right or at least less consistency from my lefty friends. But I guess the bottom line is, you can’t take the politics out of politics.
Posted by U Scare Me on Apr 25, 2005 at 10:39 AM Hi whats the truth?,
You opine:
“Unfortunately,our young women are being taught that their only worth are as sex objects.”I think this statement is untrue. This is your take on what is happening. It is nothing more than that. If we are to truly assess what is going on in the world it is necessary to put our prejudices and preconceived notions aside.
You follow up with:
“for 10$,oral sex can be had out behind the school,apparently from a variety of girls.Also,a group of girls did a dance routine at a show that the school put on that could only be described as a strip tease.And it was one of the teachers who helped them choriograph it.None of the parents protested it in any way.Our schools are actively teaching our girls to be strippers and prostitutes.Is it any wonder that our kids are lost.”Here you say, “ ...that could only be described as...” This is your opinion about the dance routine. Apparently you are the only one feeling this way. Is it possible that no parents responded to it as you indicate because they don’t see it the way you do? That, maybe they don’t see it as a striptease? After all look at the Spongebob affair. The wingnuts see perversion where most others don’t. (Don’t get excited, this example is only to show in the extreme how easy it is to see things differently.)
Your conclusions here are based on your preconceived ideas of moral behavior, in my view, and not on reality. If our schools were really doing as you say, Larry Flint would be a Superintendent of Public Instruction.
You do, however, raise a point that opens up a rather large can of worms. By inference you condemn sexual pleasure along with the downside of prostitution and striptease. Also involved is the issue of legislating morality. Is this thread a place to get into that discussion?
Posted by Merlin on Apr 25, 2005 at 12:25 PM USM,I see at least as much hipocricy from the right as from the left,I guess that reflects our different views as much as any thing else.Merlin,I don’t condemn sexual pleasure,but I feel that to encourage teens to perform bump and grind routines while wearing next to nothing just isn’t healthy.I’ve been to strip clubs,I know what a striptease looks like.And what about the oral sex?Do you consider that just my opinion to?
Posted by whats the truth? on Apr 25, 2005 at 3:41 PM Hi whats the truth?
You asked:
And what about the oral sex?Do you consider that just my opinion to?”Originally stated:
“...I’ve heard from the son of a friend of mine, that for 10$,oral sex can be had out behind the school,apparently from a variety of girls.”This is simply gossip, not opinion. Had you seen it happen yourself, it would be fact. You are just repeating what some boy told you, and saying “ain’t it awful” what these teenagers are doing nowadays. Tsk, tsk.” How you feel about that happening and what you believe it means, is your opinion. In other words, that you believe that oral sex for $10 is a terrible thing, is your opinion and you are entitled to believe that. And others are entitled to disagree with you.
And then your leaping assumption:
“Our schools are actively teaching our girls to be strippers and prostitutes.”This is simply not true. On a soapbox or a public speaking platform, it would be unsubstantiated rabble rousing rhetoric. To believe this yourself is one thing. To promote it as the “almighty truth” as you are doing here is something else.
Then you conclude:
Is it any wonder that our kids are lost.”My answer to this question is, THEY are not lost! We, the “all knowing adults” are the ones who are lost. Look at this country and the mess we have created. I have faith in the children...until we make them like us. They are much closer to the truth and to reality.
Posted by Merlin on Apr 25, 2005 at 7:15 PM Women, men, hogwash! We are beasts, the lot of us. Fill your bellies and keep your hairless bodies warm, my fellow mammalians. Our particular biome is changing rapidly.
Posted by rocco on Apr 26, 2005 at 5:24 AM Merlin,actually,my friend told me what her son told her.Why would he make something like that up?And am I to infer from your post that you feel that under age girls prostituting themselves is a good thing?Or are you just indifferent to it?As far as my ‘leaping assumption’,I guess I should have stated that they’re inactively teaching our girls.And to your last comment,how did we ‘all knowing adults’become lost?And if we’re lost,how can show our children the way?What all encompassing wisdom and experience do they possess to find what we’ve lost?..Just to throw some of your ‘holier than thou attitude’ back in your face,thats one of the most ‘disconnected from reality’ statements I’ve ever heard anyone make.What do you base those rather vague assumptions on? Yes,what I say is my opinion,but I’m stating my opinion,not trying to show how superior I am to you or anyone else.You might try the same.
Posted by whats the truth? on Apr 26, 2005 at 1:51 PM Don’t you know by now whats the truth, Merlin is a fount of wisdon. At least the pompous and banal part.
Posted by Not J Craig on Apr 26, 2005 at 2:02 PM Merlin,one other thing,your last comment shows,IN MY OPINION, head in the sand wishful thinking,at best,and an inability or unwillingness to assume responsibility for raising our children,at worst.Which I consider,IN MY OPINION,to be one of the key problems.And also,IN MY OPINION,one of the results of our childrens attitudes about sex,is that,ACCORDING TO RUMOR,that girls 18 to 20 are showing the most rapid increase in HIV infections of any single group.But thats just MY OPINION,based on RUMORS.But you are entitled to disagree with me.If you have any facts that dispute this,please enlighten me,cause what I’m seeing in the world,I find very disturbing.
Posted by whats the truth? on Apr 26, 2005 at 2:31 PM Not J Craig,thanks for the support,but try to refrain from name calling,my experience tells me that it doesn’t go any where.It’s like talking to a wall.
Posted by whats the truth? on Apr 26, 2005 at 2:43 PM Hi whats the truth?
“...my friend told me what her son told her.Why would he make something like that up?”
OK its 3rd party gossip. I don’t know why he would say it, but I can think of 3 or 4 possibilities. To simply shock the adult. To brag about being grown up. To antagonize his mother because she is exercised about and fearful of teen sex. To argue with the adult morals being forced on him in his view. Using any, or all of these, does not mean that the incident happened. No doubt there are lots more but you get the drift.
Do I believe it happened? I wouldn’t be surprised, given the current view of oral sex that teenagers have. It was a huge deal when I was in my teens a long time ago. Today it is no big deal at all. Do I have a moralistic opinion of it? No. Do I have an opinion of it? Yes.“...am I to infer that you feel that under age girls prostituting themselves is a good thing?Or are you just indifferent to it?”
Would like to be able to believe I am? Your tone says that. My answer is, no, I don’t feel that under age girls prostituting themselves is a good thing.
“...I guess I should have stated that they’re inactively teaching our girls.”
Thank you for the clarification. I accept your feelings as they are now stated. I don’t know all the facts about the situation but I would tend to believe that not even a few teachers do this.
“And to your last comment,how did we ‘all knowing adults’become lost?And if we’re lost,how can show our children the way?”That is a soul searching question that goes to the heart of the matter. I believe we have to look at, and into, ourselves psychologically. First we need to cast the beam from our own eye before presuming that our solutions are “right.” Psychological therapy is a good place for us adults to start.
“What all encompassing wisdom and experience do they possess to find what we’ve lost?”
They (babies) start out without all the prejudice and hatred, the selfishness (as opposed to self need that babies have,) the shame, guilt and anger we adults suffer from. They are very close to reality and real truth without the taint we adults have. Didn’t Christ say something about becoming like children in order to enter the gates of heaven? Regarding teenagers, they have a neat way of exposing a superior acting adult with a brief sharp statement. Drives the adult wild! They see that the “emperor has no clothes” better than we adults who have a stake in the system. They have the idealistic visions, not us stogy adults who think we know it all. We can learn a lot by listening to teenagers
“...thats one of the most ‘disconnected from reality’ statements I’ve ever heard anyone make.”
You are entitled to that opinion. I’m fine with that, even if I disagree.
“What do you base those rather vague assumptions on?”
It is not the children that have created the world the way it is, it’s us. Before we adults continue blindly down the same thoughtless path we have always taken, blazing the trail with our opinions, we need to ask questions. Questions about the basic emotions in life and how we are living them. Anger, guilt, shame, and fear. Much of what we teach children is based in these emotions, and in IMO, it should not be so.
It is often said in psychology that people are emotionally formed by the age of two. By the time they are teenagers they are already set in their ways, and only catastrophic events or perhaps true love, will change their emotional view of life very much.
“… I’m stating my opinion,not trying to show how superior I am...”Sorry, it did not come through to me that way. I took it exactly as you indicate here (superior and all knowing) and I reacted to that. We all need to really look at our posts for the hidden meanings, that both are there, or may be perceived to be there.
Posted by Merlin on Apr 26, 2005 at 5:42 PM Hi whats the truth?
Ah, I see Not J Craig, our resident troll has reappeared.You are sharp not to be taken by his taunts. You may disagree with me and/or dislike my opinions. Either way I take it as a compliment. Dialog, even emotional dialog, is a compliment to both people. Why? They are acting in good faith even in disagreement.
Trolls, on the other hand, are not honest and have a hidden agenda. They live for the thrill of upsetting people and creating chaos. I choose to ignore them.
Posted by Merlin on Apr 26, 2005 at 5:52 PM Hi whats the truth?
You opined:
“...your last comment shows,IN MY OPINION, head in the sand wishful thinking,at best,and an inability or unwillingness to assume responsibility for raising our children,at worst.”OK, its your opinion. I may be old, but my hearing is excellent. You don’t have to shout (use all capitals.) Seriously I don’t see how either of these extremes fits my post. See my latest long post and see if it clarifies this point. If not, ask me specifically what you want me to explain.
And:
“one of the results of our childrens attitudes about sex,isthat,ACCORDING TO RUMOR,that girls 18 to 20 are showing the most rapid increase in HIV infections of any single group.”You are right to be concerned about this, regardless of the figures. I am as well. Where we differ is in where we think the problem lies and how to resolve it. I do not think that trying to “control” anybody’s sex life works. No matter what the age. Control, in the form of demanded actions by Church, Government or parents simply drives a wedge between children and their parents. The kids just don’t confide in the parents anymore. They will do whatever they want to do anyway and simply hide their actions. Sex drive and pheromones are too powerful to be suppressed for long. We need to understand that.
Teens need parental guidance in all matters including sex. That most teens, in my view, are turned off to their folks is a big problem. This is our fault, not theirs. There is no guidance then. One possible reason I did not give (in my long post), regarding the boy who told his mom about oral sex, is positive. If he feels free to talk to his mom honestly about what is going on sexually, I’m elated. He will know he won’t be yelled at when he brings his confusion or fears about sex to his mom. She will be there for him regarding VD info, birth control, how to get, pick out and use a condom, etc., as well as how do you approach a girl sexually (the date rape problem), selfishness in sexuality (the ‘in out, roll over and go to sleep syndrome’.) etc. And of course the spiritual part that sexuality plays in a relationship is extremely important.
Without the teen believing that his folks accept his sexual feelings and needs, he is left to fend for himself. His peers are the most likely “source” of info. And that’s just great, isn’t it! The blind leading the blind.For what it is worth, I raised three children.
Posted by Merlin on Apr 26, 2005 at 6:38 PM When my son and daughter were little, we lived in Karachi and had no access to American TV. At first, my wife and I thought it was a burden we had to put up with, but as the kids grew we saw that they had actually benefitted. When we visited America, it’s true that both kids acted like jones-ing addicts when they had access to TV, but it was mainly cartoons and kid-oriented fare. Warped-sexy shows and mega-violence (my kids inform me that it’s now “uber-violence” or whatever) were verboten, although before long we relaxed the regulation mainly in regards to any hot love scenes they might see on a rented movie or something.
The point is, knowing my daughter now that she’s nearly grown and seeing the kind of woman she is becoming, I’m glad she (as well as my son) didn’t imbibe what American mass media culture had to offer when they were little. And now, when she expresses outrage at shows like “The Swan” (which I could list as among the most repugnant show concepts yet invented), and rolls her eyes at “Desperate Housewives”, I rejoice. Perhaps she still would be reacting this way if she’d grown up in front of an American-show idiot box, but as parents it would have been harder to compete with the onslaught of weird values and absurd role models.
It doesn’t even occur to my daughter that she would need to use sex for anything other than pleasure and expression of love, certainly not to “get an edge” in some competitive marketplace or other. The whole idea rather shocks her, and she’s no puritan either.
I have some friends who have a TV only for the purpose of watching videos or DVDs they rent or check out from the library, they don’t have cable or even an antenna. Their kids read a lot of books and magazines (including a perennial favorite of my own, MAD), and read the newspaper to see what’s going on in the world. They do complain now and again about being detached from the broadcast (mainly they want Cartoon Network), but in the end, they’re cool. They know their home is different from those of their friends, but it doesn’t bother them.
Consider divorcing TV, it’s really not much of a loss, even (especially) for kids.
Posted by Kuya on Apr 27, 2005 at 2:53 AM We have a drywall commercial running on the radio here,(I live in a mountain town in Colorado),and at the end,they state,and this is a quote,our drywall is well hung,we get it up.What has sex got to do with drywall?I’ve been reading in the news lately that girls as young as 9 years old are using steroids to tone there bodies,the inference here(which was stated in the article that I read) is that they want sexy bodies.9 year old girls worried about how sexy they look.Then there’s the story about a year or so ago about a 9 year old boy who raped a 7 year old girl.A friend of mine told me that she over heard her 12 year old babysitter talking to her friend about how to give a good blow job.I had a job about a year ago where I worked with some high school boys.They told me that most of the girls were making the rounds,I.E.,sleeping with all the guys.Studies have shown that sons of abusives husbands were more likely to grow up to be abusive husbands themselves.Priests raping young boys.Female teachers having sex with under age male students.ETC ETC ETC ETC ETC.........You assume,Merlin,that I want to control peoples sex lives.You probably also assume that I’m a religious,right wing conservative wing nut.I’m not.But taking into account everything I’ve seen,heard,and read,adding up all the pluses and minuses,that what we’re teaching(which is a form of control)our children is that sex is everything,and everything else is secondary.When 9 year old girls are worried about how sexy their bodies look,something is clearly wrong.Do you think I’m wrong about this? And for what it’s worth, I have no children.
Posted by whats the truth? on Apr 27, 2005 at 10:52 PM America is sick of the feminazis! America is tired of the bitch brigade whining all the time and making up shit to whine about. Maureen dowd and the very bitchy Ellen Goodman are being ignored by sane Americans tired of baby killers and women who really have nothing better to do than bitch. These women who constantly complain about everything just don’t get it. America is sick to death of the stupid,paranoid bitching women with permanent menstrual syndrome. they are making more enemies than allies and are just to stupid to realize it. You want to be empowered? go cook dinner and quit bitching all the time.
Posted by doggie style on Apr 28, 2005 at 9:23 PM Wow, doggie style?!? Dear DS, clearly you have little thought in your brain. I hope you are in prison or somewhere you can do no harm. You probably drive an SUV, not because the marketing nonsense worked on you, but because you like to exude pollution.
Please return to DrugeReport.com.
Ciao.
Posted by contra-doggie style on Apr 29, 2005 at 8:57 AM ah the typical liberal response to diversity. My brain is absolutely fine and I know that it seems odd to you that somebody can think on their own and have common sense. Nope not in prison either unless you consider graduate school prison. And no again I drive a VW Beetle diesel engine 50 plus miles per gallon. it looks like you who cry sterotyping and misogny at every turn are more guilty than those of us who offer valid alternatives to the feminazi lunatics in terms of true discourse of ideas. Like I always say -radical femininsm is not only a mental disorder it is a hate crime.
Posted by doggiestyle on Apr 29, 2005 at 11:58 AM I can tell that you have no idea what the truth is by what you call yourself. The facists are back- anybody that does not agree with the silly feminazi agenda is a troll or should be in jail or drives and SUV and is polluting mother earth or gasp- a conservative. get over yourselves already! you vagina nazis would be funny except for the fact you take yourselves so seriously that you are a danger to our society. Radical feminism is a hate crime fueled by delusional, mentally deficient women who by sitting on their asses reading anti- man propoganda for so long their brains have been replaced with their twats. have a nice day girls
Posted by doggie style on Apr 29, 2005 at 5:52 PM doggie style,sorry that I called you a troll.My bad.But why do you hate women so much? Thats the only thing I got from your comments.
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