No matter how much columnists and media critics bemoan the sorry state of American journalism, no matter how low the press sinks in the estimation of the American people, the news media, particularly on television, remains defiantly abysmal. Now, on top of the usual toxic doses of runaway brides, irrelevant celebrity trials and President Bush holding hands with Crown Prince Abdullah,… return to article
-
subscribe to print magazine
-
email this article to a friend
-
Reader Comments (166)AFP;
“Luminous beauty,
This is the last time I am addressing to you. Its just not worth the time. I find you quoting so many unrelated quotes that you seem to be more confused than anyone in the universe.”I’m not confused. It may be you don’t understand. I have no difficulty understanding the Bible or Jesus or Christian metaphysics or your soteriological desire. It is the theme of the Mystical Union common to all religions and spiritual traditions. That you prefer the Christian version is your prerogative. It is just that I have outgrown that particular spiritual stage of clinging to explanations of reality whether God centered or not.
Reality is what it is and all explanations fall short of perfect description. The simple truth is there is no fundamental division between you and reality. All that you need to experience that truth you have always possessed. It is not in the Bible or the Gita or Science or Philosophy. It is within you right here and now. It is that simple. It is not that easy.
My quotes (there are only three in my last post. The first four are a single source concerning overcoming hatred. The other two are explicitly about defilement.) They are all related to the subject of wisdom and the somewhat less than generous rhetoric of this conversation.
If you don’t wish to respond, that’s OK.
Posted by luminous beauty on Jul 5, 2005 at 7:21 PM Oh! Yes! Your argument for the existence of God is a perfectly unintentional restatement of Mark Twain’s ‘argument’ for the existence of God; “If God didn’t exist, Mankind would’ve had to invent Him.”
Posted by luminous beauty on Jul 5, 2005 at 8:42 PM Oh! Yes! Your argument for the existence of God is a perfectly unintentional restatement of Mark Twain’s ‘argument’ for the existence of God; “If God didn’t exist, Mankind would’ve had to invent Him.”
Posted by luminous beauty on July 5, 2005 at 3:42 PM
________________________________________________Luminous beauty,
You force me to respond!
God does exist, so no need of mankind to invent him. I hope you understand that Mark Twain intended to say exactly that. However I do not take recourse to the statements of others to uphold my own beliefs. What I believe firmly , I justify with sheer logic. To prove that God exists is easy since he has left his signature on so much of his creation. To prove that he does not is impossible. Try and prove that he does not exist and you will land up with many contradictions. You try to prove that he does not exist and I will point out the absurdities in any such arguments. Let this be a one to one conversation between me and you. We will just neglect the comments for or against from any one else so that we are on course.
Posted by APF on Jul 9, 2005 at 3:37 PM It’s incredible what logic can produce unanchored to reality. The Bible is the ‘statements of others’ and God is unknown as long as he is considered other. This poem by Rumi may help to understand this difficult point:
What is to be done, O Moslems? for I do not recognize myself.
I am neither Christian, nor Jew, nor Gabr [Magian], nor Moslem.
I am not of the East, nor of the West, nor of the land, nor of the sea;
I am not of Nature’s mint, nor of the circling heavens.
I am not of earth, nor of water, nor of air, nor of fire;
I am not of the empyrean, nor of the dust, nor of existence, nor of
entity.
I am not of India, nor of China, nor of Bulghar, nor of Saqsin;
I am not of the kingdom of Iraqain, nor of the country of Khurasan.
I am not of this world, nor of the next, nor of Paradise, nor of Hell;
I am not of Adam, nor of Eve, nor of Eden and Rizwan.
My place is the Placeless, my trace is the Traceless;
‘Tis neither body nor soul, for I belong to the soul of the Beloved.
I have put duality away, I have seen that the two worlds are one;
One I seek, One I know, One I see, One I call.
He is the first, He is the lest, He is the outward, He is the inward;
I know none other except “Ya Hu” and “Ya man Hu”.
I am intoxicated with Love’s cup, the two worlds have passed out of my
ken;
I have no business save carouse and revelry.
If once in my life I spent a moment without you,
From that time and from that hour I repent of my life.
If once in this world I win a moment with you,
I will trample on both worlds, I will dance in triumph for ever.
O Shamsi Tabriz, I am so drunken in this world,
That except of drunkenness and revelry I have no tale to tell.If you would simply see reality as it is unencumbered by belief, you will understand the question of the existence or non-existence of God is a vain one; in both meanings of the word. What is of primary importance is what one does with one’s present life and let the after-life be. This is in no way intended to mean you should abandon your belief if it does in fact, as you say, aid you in overcoming selfishness and not just give your ego a righteous sheen; just a suggestion to recognize that belief is inferior to certain knowledge transcending mere words, names, and labels.
Twain’s intent was ironic. As he told a woman who said to him ‘God bless you, Mr. Twain’; ‘Madam, you apparently haven’t heard of our estrangement’. Twain was an atheist. You aren’t the first Christian who has misunderstood that. To understand more fully read his essay ‘The Damned Human Race’.
I hope you will continue this discussion, however I can’t promise prompt replies, as work will soon be taking me on the road for the summer.
Posted by luminous beauty on Jul 9, 2005 at 7:13 PM AFP said “I’m not confused.”
Well, you can’t prove that you are not, you only have opinion on the matter.
One of the most foundational tenents in logic, is that just because you cannot prove something, does not mean it is therefore true.
This has already been explained, and it is explained on almost every philosophy site, critical thinking site, explanation of fallacious thinking site. That you keep using the same arguement over and over, even though it is patently invalid, is strong evidence that you are confused.
It has been explained that you have to prove their is a God, not demend refutation for the burden is yours.
Tell, me, do you think people would not love to believe in God? I sure as hell wish there was a God, it is insane to not want one. I am not saying your view of god, I think that is insane as well, but that is just my opinion, I know you don’t agree, no need to argue.
But what possible reason in the imagination would compell a person to not believe in God if they really thought is made sense?
If your views made logical sense, do you not think more than 3% (or whatever the number of Fundamentalist Christians there is worldwide) of people would submit?
Posted by mikmik on Jul 10, 2005 at 3:04 AM What is of primary importance is what one does with ones present life and let the after-life be.
Posted by luminous beauty on July 9, 2005 at 1:13 PM
———————————& ——————————— 8212;
Luminous beauty,
Only the above sentence from the plenty of sentences you have written is I think worthy of response.What you said above is what even the lowliest of animals do. They think only about their present life because they don’t even have the knowledge of an afterlife. Then what is the difference between man and any other animal. I think it is only the spirit of man which makes it possible to commune with his creator that makes man totally and vastly different from any other animal. Intelligence is not unique to humans. Even some animals are quite intelligent. So the main difference is the spirit of man which is indwelt by the Almighty if a person so allows him to.
Posted by APF on Jul 12, 2005 at 4:20 PM APF;
We apparently have different understandings of what is ‘spirit’. My understanding is that spirit pervades all of reality, not merely some personal possession specially given by God only to humans, and thus, in jeopardy of being taken away. Spirit may be said to be the nature of interconnectedness of all things. It is manifest in the relations of living beings, whether for good or ill. It is manifest in our material and non-material being. It is everywhere, always and without cessation.
What makes us different from the animals is that aspect of our intelligence that allows us to discriminate one thing from another. We become accustomed to thinking in this manner, causing us to believe that our selves are some kind of separate atomistic entities. This state of selfishness is what is overcome when we awaken to our true spiritual nature, which never abandons us no matter how wrapped in ignorance we may become.
When this happens, wisdom, compassion and sacred love arise spontaneously in our hearts and minds.
I say this not because I believe it or have read it in books or have been told so by teachers (although let me express here my deep and sincere gratitude for the scriptures, teachers and good fortune that have guided me on my path), but because I have experienced it. It is my wish that you should have that adamantine experience, tam bien.
Posted by luminous beauty on Jul 18, 2005 at 9:11 PM We apparently have different understandings of what is spirit. My understanding is that spirit pervades all of reality
Posted by luminous beauty on July 18, 2005 at 4:11 PM
——————————— ;———————————&# #8212;-
Luminous beauty,
It is my belief too that spirit pervades all of reality. If that is so, then that concept cannot apply to our human spirit because if human spirit pervades all reality then all human beings would have the knowledge of all reality which is obviously not so.I believe that only one spirit can pervade all of reality and that is the supreme spirit which the Bible calls God’s Spirit. If a human being does not allow God’s Spirit to abide in his spirit then it means that human being chooses to be outside of reality and hence will always be in a confused state of mind.
By the above two arguments, it means that your own concept that spirit pervades all reality proves the existence of God !!! Because if you cannot apply this concept to human spirit then to what other spirit can you apply it to other than God’s spirit.
Posted by APF on Jul 30, 2005 at 11:57 AM APF wrote:Every success in an organization can very easily be linked to a good manager. So also the complexity and beauty of life can only be explained by a supernatural manager and HIM I call God. The Bible comes nearest to explain who that God is in comparison to all others. That mikmik was born when a certain sperm from his father and a certain egg from his mother came together without a hand guiding that coming together and the growth that occured afterwards is hard to believe isnt it or do you believe that it was just fluke that brought the two together and you are a product of that fluke. What a pity if that is what you believe about yourself. It is much more logical to believe that a supernatural being with immense wisdom and immense power and potential created every human being.
OK then, who created this “god” you speak of Does he/she have a god of his/her own that created him/her?
Posted by Kaw Valley Kid on Sep 2, 2005 at 8:50 PM Sorry,I should have read further! I got excited,I see that this has been covered!
Posted by Kaw Valley Kid on Sep 2, 2005 at 9:02 PM APF,
If spirit pervades all reality then it is pervasive in human consciousness, whether we know it or not or whether we allow it to abide in our spirit or not. It is, was, and always will be here. It neither comes closer, nor moves farther away. It’s nature is no different from our nature. Our nature is completely derived from the undivided nature of spirit. Spirit is the ocean from which these teeny momentary drops of awareness emerge and to which they inevitably return.
The only separation from spirit is in clinging to the belief of separate natures. All one need do is let go of one’s unwholesome belief and reality will be revealed for what it simply is. Much easier to say than do, no?
Posted by luminous beauty on Sep 16, 2005 at 11:41 AM whether we know it or not or whether we allow it to abide in our spirit or not. It is, was, and always will be here.
How do you know this?All one need do is let go of ones unwholesome belief and reality will be revealed for what it simply is
Yes, APF, when do you plan to let go and see reality?
You sure like giving us your opinion on what constitutes existense, but you have yet to provide any rational substantiation. It looks only to me like you think you know more than everyone else. Prove it. I want evidence, not your opinion.
I know you think that God exists, that His spirit pervades all. So? I think otherwise.
Why don’t you just let go and see that we just ‘are’, that it demeans our existence to brush it off as the will of a being, an impulse. That is not majestic, that idea is simplistic.Why do you cling to childish notions? The experience of awe is embraced by acceptance and understanding, without thought and rationalizations. Fabricating trite explanations deprives the spirit of wonder the profound understanding of what it is to be alive.
Writing our presense off as an act of will is spiritual suicide. This is a well known fact, obviously. You must remove illusion to see, not create it. No matter how pretty or comforting your vision is, it covers the real beauty of our experience.
Posted by jomo on Sep 16, 2005 at 10:01 PM jomo,
I think I basically agree with the apparent general intent of your observations, but I don’t think you are reading this thread too clearly. Take a couple of deep breaths, focus your mind and try again.
Posted by luminous beauty on Sep 21, 2005 at 11:03 PM how strange,I just got an email saying someone replied to my comment.but when I come here I don’t find MY comment! Was it deleted?anyone know?
Posted by Kaw Valley Kid on Sep 22, 2005 at 1:53 AM kaw,
your comment is on the previous page. You’ll have to go into the archives to find it, apparently.
Posted by luminous beauty on Sep 22, 2005 at 1:32 PM ok,whew thanks!I was afraid the thought police were here!
Posted by Kaw Valley Kid on Sep 22, 2005 at 3:36 PM -
register a new account »Posting Security
Also by Susan J. Douglas
Popular Discussions
- The 9/11 Faith Movement
Many Americans believe 9/11 was a conspiracy by the U.S. government
1979 posts since Jul 11 06 - What’s the 411 on 9/11?
891 posts since Dec 21 05 - Democrats: It’s the War
659 posts since Nov 1 05 - Was the Presidential Election Stolen?
462 posts since Jun 19 06 - A Fundamental History Lesson
The rise of National Socialism proved politics and religion don't mix
427 posts since Oct 10 05
© 2005 In These Times | Reprint Policy | Privacy Policy | Powered by Expression Engine | RSS Feeds
