Critics frequently trash hip hop because commercialism dominates the genre. But, as Bakari Kitwana notes in his new book Why White Kids Love Hip Hop, the music serves a higher purpose as a “voice for the voiceless” and a bridge across America’s racial divide. Artists like New York-based rapper Immortal Technique provide that voice, heightening awareness within a community desperate… return to article
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Reader Comments (33)Page 1 of 1 pages“Tech--kills the beat and reminds them: “Blacks and Latinos get the worst education/ while devils run America”
Blacks and Latinos are like oil and water. There is no affinity between these races. How do blacks south of the border live?
When Aztlan is created in the American Southwest, Blacks will be as much welcome there as they are in Mexico, where blacks are routinely depicted as savages.
Posted by Jill Henry on Jun 30, 2005 at 7:21 AM Jill-
You wrote: ‘Blacks and Latinos are like oil and water. There is no affinity between these races.’
What if Latinos are black? This is indeed the case of Immortal Technique, who is Peruvian with a black parent, and grew up in a mixed Latin and black quarter of NYC. Latinos are not so much a race as an ethnicity.
‘Latinos’ does not equal ‘Mexico’.
Posted by rocco on Jun 30, 2005 at 7:41 AM Anyway,
I bought Revolutionary vol 2. It was quite refreshing. Tech seems to understand that racism is a product of capitalism. The entire concept of race was invented in 1492. It coincides with the birth or our epoch. The ancient Romans divided people between civilised and barbarian. But barbarians could become civilised. The medieval Europeans divided the world between Christian and heathen, but heathens could convert to christianity. Capitalism creates a category that is biologically predetermined and unalterable: race. How else could one justify the treatment of natives and African slaves?
Actually the first justification was that these people were savage heathens. But as some of the natives and Africans became civilised Christians, a new justifications was invented. Race is still used today, often to divide the working class whose only strength is in its unity. And Immortal Technique is right when he says the left is racist too.
His only weakness is his susceptibility to the whole illimunati theories. I also don’t like his whole “Yo mama’s pussy, that’s aaiight.” That’s just stupid. Hey noones perfect.
Posted by Maximillian Al-Dakari on Jun 30, 2005 at 10:12 AM Max,
About racism, I couldn’t disagree more. Racism is a manifestation of the primative, genetic, vestigial survival instinct of tribalism. We all have it to one degree or another. Further, racism is not the only manifestation of tribalism. This primative instinct manifests itself in virtually all aspects of human existence.
However, this genetic trait is most prominent in conservatives. That’s why they are so hateful and suspicious of anyone different than themselves. That’s why the first thing Bush said after 9/11 is you are either with us, or you are with the terrorists - classic “enemy camp,” us against them, mentality.
The same genetic trait is what causes all humans to be somewhat fearful and suspicious of those different from ourselves. Liberals are able to overcome the instinct with reason and intellect. Conservatives cannot.
Posted by Lefty on Jun 30, 2005 at 3:13 PM “… what he would do to the mothers and girlfriends of his enemies...”
WHAT??!! Why the hell is it acceptable for a male political hip-hop artist to be disgustingly misogynistic, even if his other lyrics support oppressed people’s struggles? DUDE. Just because you have enemies DOES NOT give you the right to treat their wives or girlfriends like objects!
This is not acceptable. This makes a mockery of women who are fighting patriarchy & sexism, and of other men (like myself) who are trying to destroy the patriarchy & sexism within ourselves.
Posted by brotherman on Jun 30, 2005 at 3:58 PM Right on, broman. Kind of throws a big ass wrench in his “progressive” gears.
Posted by roskideluge on Jun 30, 2005 at 4:36 PM Brotherman and roskideludge are the same suburban dumbasses that don’t understand how infused Kanye West’s “College Dropout” is with Black History.
Hip-hop is from the streets not classrooms.
Go listen to goddamn Pedro the Lion and bitch about the cop who followed you in Rite Aid to your rich, white girlfriend who likes to buy coke in my neighborhood.
Hip-hop is not your domain, “patriarchy” man. Anyone who uses that word is obviously not from the streets.
Unfortunately, you are the privilaged assholes who will write for Rolling Stone.
Posted by therealdeal on Jun 30, 2005 at 5:08 PM I don’t know the difference between hip hop and rap, it sounds like the same thing to me. In any event, from what I’ve heard of it, it’s a disaster for blacks in America. That’s a shame too because the lyrics which are so vulgar and distructive could just as easily be a powerful positive force that motivates the listener to achieve and accomplish to the best of his/her abilities.
If you listen to positive lyrics set to memorable melodies, you can program the brain for positive performance. Conversely, if you listen to negative lyrics about violence, hate, death, and you program the brain for those things too.
Posted by Lefty on Jun 30, 2005 at 8:15 PM Interestingly, I just finished watching PBS’s documentary on Jack Johnson, the first black heavyweight champion. He was criticized by both middle-class black and whites for his flambuoyant behavior, overt sexuality, etc. Booker T. Washington denounced him for his immodest ways and miscegenation because they were hurtful to the black movement as a whole… a professor telling a rural Texas boy who scratched his way to success how to live correctly and for others. Jackson was finally arrested for sleeping with a white woman (the charge was White Slavery).
I bring this all up because the above criticisms of Technique remind me of Washington’s judgmental statements. It is the inability of the educated left to walk in another’s shoes. Or perhaps the inability to accept that some people don’t give a shit what anybody thinks, which is of course the ethos of hip-hop. The individual’s struggle in a hostile environment. It’s why the most common word in rap is “I”, or why Jack Johnson had gold front teeth in 1903.
I think this has a strong place in the evolutionary history of the species, and certainly holds enough common truth to make good art, which always transcends the boundaries of politics.
And Max, no more C-word for a week.
Posted by rocco on Jun 30, 2005 at 8:59 PM Lefty,
There are black conservatives. They’re many non-racist conservative of all races. Your theories have to actually EXPLAIN social phenomenon. That’s the least one can demand.
There is no tribal instinct. As homo sapiens evolved we lived in bands of a few dozen people, in an immensely sparsely populated world. The tribal rivalry is a SOCIAL adaptation that comes long afterwards, when society has become more complex, when populations have grown and resources have become sparser. But these are SOCIAL phenomena not genetic phenomena. The pace of the transformation from the band of 50 to the tribe of 50,000 is far quicker than the pace of evolutionary change within the species.
Anyway how can one explain a slave feeling more affinity for the slave-owner of the same “race” than a fellow slave of a different “race”? What kind of warped survival instinct is that?
As for Tech, one has to consider his circumstances. He is probably in a state of transition and growth. Hopefully some more maturity will be reflected in his future work. When an ex-con can write these words:
Martial law is coming soon to the hood, to kill you
While you hanging your flag out your project windowThat’s a good thing.
Posted by Maximillian Al-Dakari on Jun 30, 2005 at 9:24 PM The “real” deal. I’ll take a job at RStone anytime, no problem there. You say, hiphop is from the streets, not the classroom. I think hiphop is the classroom of the streets. Remember, there’s a difference between privilege, and recognizing one’s privileged position on a stage, in front of a mic, or on a page.
Oh, and as far as: “Go listen to goddamn Pedro the Lion and bitch about the cop who followed you in Rite Aid to your rich, white girlfriend who likes to buy coke in my neighborhood.”
All I gotta say is: Huh?
Posted by roskideluge on Jul 1, 2005 at 12:03 AM Max,
I’m sorry that you don’t understand my point, but, none of the examples you’ve proffered are inconsistent with the genetic instinct for tribalism.
Posted by Lefty on Jul 1, 2005 at 7:03 AM Re: Tribalism:
Lefty, you and I have argued about the strength of the tribal instinct before, but in regards to this discussion, I cautiously agree with you.
This is where genetic studies, zoology and cultural anthropology get a bit convoluted and messy. Millions of years of mammalian adaptation does suggest that we have genetically adapted to create social bonds.
And Max, while you write that “we lived in bands of a few dozen people, in an immensely sparsely populated world”, this fails to take into consideration the many horrid dangers of the erratic Pleistocene. We - we being mammals - bonded to a level more complex than our reptilian ancestors in proportion to the enmity that lay outside our imaginary boundaries. Another reason, of course, why within these bonds, the strongest instinct still seems to be territory, i.e. property.
I hope this doesn’t come across as a pseudo-scientific defense of capitalism, but it does explain why we are where we are. We’re not just fighting Republicans, we’re fighting human nature. But I think the most adaptable among us may just pass on our genes, imbedding in them a propensity for greater awareness and identity with an even large paradigmatic whole. Lamarck lives!
Posted by rocco on Jul 1, 2005 at 11:27 AM Rocco said:
“This is where genetic studies, zoology and cultural anthropology get a bit convoluted and messy. Millions of years of mammalian adaptation does suggest that we have genetically adapted to create social bonds.”
And the flip side of that coin is the inherent distrust and fear of those that are “other.” For a conservative, that fear and distrust becomes hate and bigotry.
I am not saying that we are all racists in terms of our outward behavior. But, we all have the potential to allow our genetic tribalistic instincts to overcome reason and intellect. Also, there are still be some benefits to tribalistic behavior. Socialism is a manifestation of it. But, for the most part, I think it is a vestigial burden on the minds of modern humans.
Posted by Lefty on Jul 1, 2005 at 1:14 PM Does it seem ridiculous and blatantly contradictory to anyone else how a hip-hopper or rapper can shout about crimes against his people and put down women in the same mouthfull!!??? Sounds like the same old s#it to me!! I love what hip-hop represents and where it came from but I don’t have any respect for “artists” that degrade their fellow human beings and neither should anyone else if they consider themselves thoughtful and enlightened. Here’s an idea—Respect.
Posted by pleasevolve on Jul 5, 2005 at 9:31 AM Like I said before, hip-hop is a highly effective motivational device. It literally programs the brain of the listener to achieve according to the substance of the lyrics. It equally effective at motivating the listener to to good for himself and others as well as bad, depending on the substance of the lyrics.
Posted by Lefty on Jul 5, 2005 at 10:53 AM Hip-hop is about expressing your emotions even if it is political. If raping people’s mothers describes how somebody feels you have no right to spew bullshit about how that sets back women’s rights. Hip-hop has the potential to be educational in a much more useful way than any classroom but MTV and BET have commercialized it so much that for the most part it’s only useful to rich racist white people who love to see poor people spending there minimum wage on 200 dollar sneakers so they can look like the suburban rich kids they see on TV. Pop is worse than just bad music. Its the most modern chains Whitey has to hold down minorities.
Posted by NYC Insurgent on Jul 5, 2005 at 11:09 AM Nice to see a post about rap that is saying something. Commercial Hip Hop is killing the artform. When NWA came out Gangsta Rap was exressing a reality that hadn’t been discussed before, at least not to mainstream America. It’s harsh depictions of violence and misogny were reflecting (for the most part) a life that people in the midwest simply didn’t want to acknowledge. Rap certainly was (and still can be), in the words of Chuck D., “The Black CNN”.
The problem is that the “gangsta” formula is just that, a formula. One that sells albums now but is saying very little. Artists (and record companies) have realized that you drop an album with the requisite number of gunfighting/dope smoking/ho-slapping/cristal drinking lines over some sick beats and you have a #1 album. Honestly, what the hell did “The Game” do to get a #1 album? Be 50 Cent’s buddy? These aren’t depictions of reality so much as crass voyeurism...50 Cent is more famous for getting shot in the face than he is for anything he is saying (which isn’t much I’m afraid)
if you want to hear anything good these days you have to stick to the underground...acts like Dead Prez and Dizzee Rascal are few and far between.
Which is pretty sad for an artform that has SO much to say to resign itself to saying so little
Posted by neil on Jul 5, 2005 at 2:30 PM Raping the “enemies” mothers and daughters has been around for at least 8,000 years. Continuing the evil does nothing to bring about good-for the oppressors or the oppressed. “Tech” may do some good, but at what cost to humanity?
Posted by pyotr neimczyck on Jul 5, 2005 at 4:20 PM Hip hop/rap died a long time ago, when getting paid became more important than what you said. Spoken Word is similar to what real hip hop use to be. Spoken Word artist have something to say and are saying it to Black people, not to the crossover market.
People really don’t understand that initially hip hop music and culture were merely the continuation of the Black American tradition of rejecting the idea of being defined by this white society. Hip hop was born so that Black kids who couln’t afford $15. tickets to see Parliament/Funkadelic land the mothership could still party to “live” music. People were also offended when the Bar Kays were reduced to an opening act for AWB. Funk had been co-opted so we had to move on and even though there were reggae, ska and house scenes evolving then Hip Hop was the most radically different, the most accessible and something white people didn’t and couldn’t get into. Whatever Black folks hold up as our own and doesn’t seem to go over well with white people is what’s real. Musically that’s Gospel and culturally that’s Spoken Word. 80% to 90% of everything else is bullshit.
Posted by theloneous on Jul 6, 2005 at 10:45 AM Theloneous:
“Whatever Black folks hold up as our own and doesn’t seem to go over well with white people is what’s real. Musically that’s Gospel and culturally that’s Spoken Word. 80% to 90% of everything else is bullshit.”
To the contrary, I think whites (including hispanics), have adopted almost all of Black culture as their own, even dreadlocks.
The fact that whites are more willing to pay other whites to imitate blacks, than they are to pay blacks to do it, is another matter.
Posted by Lefty on Jul 6, 2005 at 10:58 AM Lefty:
You missed the point. “whites (including hispanics), have adopted almost all of Black culture as their own,” is the co-opting that inspires Black folks to move on to that which we can call our own. As soon as whites adopt some segment of our culture its authenticity is diminished, its no longer “real”, its BS. That’s what went wrong with Hip Hop, it got “adopted”
Posted by theloneous on Jul 6, 2005 at 11:52 AM It isn’t that white people like music that makes it fake, its that it gets commercialized. A genre doesn’t die when a certain race gets into it but it might seem that way when a deluge of crap gets flooded onto the scene by clearchannel and viacom.
Posted by NYC Insurgent on Jul 7, 2005 at 9:16 AM not to mention that by Theloneous’ argument then there hasn’t been any real hip hop since 1987 when The Beastie Boys’ License to Ill came out.
which would mean that Public Enemy, Digable Planets, De La Soul, Tribe Called Quest, Das Efx, NWA, etc etc etc aren’t “real” and just “BS”.
Posted by neil on Jul 7, 2005 at 10:44 AM Previously I statted that Hip Hop died “when getting paid became more important than what you said.”, that would be around 1990. 80% to 90% of rap that came out after around 1990 was intended for mass consumption and therefore is artistically insignificant.
Obviously co-opting of Black music isn’t unprecedented with an inverted correlation to Hip Hop being the life cycle of BeBop as an alternative to the Big Band and Swing era of the 1930’s and 40’s. When Black jazz musicians got finished playing for white audiances at segregated clubs they retreated to jam sessions to play what they felt like playing, not for “the game” but to reconnect their art to who they were. BeBop sounded (sounds) like music from another planet compared to the “commercialized” jazz of the time much like the contrast in about 1978 between rap over a turn table and beat box to funk as stylized as Herbie Hancock or The Brothers Johnson. Commercialization and drugs (heroin) helped inspire creation of the BeBop movement and these same factors (Disco and cocaine) led to the demise of funk/rise of Hip Hop. I think rap reached its artistic and relevant peak in the late 80’s and could no longer be ignored or considered a fad. It’s been pretty much downhill since then.
Posted by theloneous on Jul 8, 2005 at 8:44 AM Theloneous: Hip hop is not downhill. Hip hop is here to stay and Immortal Technique is the voice that is thought provoking and invites and moves people to think, and exchange all sort of questionings. Undergroung Hip Hop is not static. It jumps like a cat from one roof to the other and looks through the windows of people’s hearts and minds. It barks its pain like a straight dog. For the last six months I have been listening without stop to Immortal Technique. Hip Hop has been blessed with a voice and that is Immortal Technique.
Posted by Fred on Jul 9, 2005 at 8:51 PM Anyone seen Lefty lately ? I’m his
shrink and we are most concerned because
he’s having a reoccurence of earlier severe
psychotic episodes. He tends to lose his bowel
control ability in public places at these times.
His last boyfriend left him and he complains
that agents of Tom DeLay are stalking him !
An ambulance and a net would be most helpful now.
Posted by Dr. Goodfellow on Jul 12, 2005 at 4:45 PM Raping the mothers
and girlfriends of your enemies /is/ what makes you a real nigga. I’m damn glad Tech isn’t bowing to the pressure of corporate rap to stop saying it like it is.
Posted by damnstraight on Jul 12, 2005 at 11:58 PM Immortal Technique is right about everything
the white peaple of america doesnt care about
Latinos, Black, Muslims,and every body thats not white or cristian why do you think they force us to go to the army but let the white man have a choice.Damn those hood wearing cross burning crackers!
Posted by Daniel on Jul 15, 2005 at 1:14 PM I think Daniel is a white cracker cookie pretending to be a black cracker cookie. Mos Def is an agent of the Hollywood Mossad Zionist underground. Did you see him in that movie with that Aryan guy “Good Will Hunting”? I can’t remember his real name but he is so lily white. Mos was his helper with the bombs and stuff. Hollywood is run by the Zionist Mossad and Mos Def is an agent in their nefarious machinations. Black Star of David. That means Technique who loses rap battles to white emcees named Idea has guilty blood on his hands and tongue from that insidious Hollywood connection.
Posted by peepeedoodoo2005 on Jul 18, 2005 at 4:56 AM Immortal Technique has very original beats laid under very intelligent but often surface skimming or biased lyrics. He is wonderful as spurring discussions such as this, even when they dissintegrate into name calling and general turdism.
Good Hip Hop to Check Out
p.s Dead prez is not underground and their last album was awful,1. Sage Francis
2. The Maroons (Cheif XL from Blackalicious and Lateef from Latyrx)
3. Lyrics Born (if you’ll forgive the break sell out to those corny Coke Commercials)
4. Zion I
5. Aesop Rock/Cannibal Ox/ Company Flow/El P
6. Atmosphere
7. Glue (was on scribble jam tour this year)
8. The Cunninglynguists (some stuff is just fun but others have deeper meaning)
9. Busdriver/ People Under the Stairs
9. Take it back to the old school kids. . . Rakim is still the best emcee in hip hop history......Gangstarr. . . and oh You want political rap? how bout Boogie Down Productions? They were sayin the same stuff in 89 that people think is cutting edge today.Educate yourself
p.s. peepeedoodoo… you ever listen to eyedea? I appreciate the kool keith reference in the name but saying because technique loses to a better battle mc he has guilty blood on his hands? That’s just ignant fool.peace
zero X
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