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The Congresswoman is whistling through her
teeth. There is no progressive revival.
Anti-Bush sentiment does not a philosophy
make, the same people were pushing this ABB
line last year and they got buried at the polls.
There has been much harsher and more consistent
criticism of Bush on the libertarian lew rockwell
and antiwar.com sites than in all of the left.
Americans want lower taxes, to keep their guns
and cars, oppose affirmative action, oppose
Kyoto Treaty,letting social security & medicare
slide into bankruptcy and unfortunately 56% of
them even oppose US troop withdrawal from Iraq.
The Dems have no new ideas, just the old New
Deal retreads.
Posted by Martin on Jul 12, 2005 at 11:43 AM
Michael Hardesty, aka Martin, Mikey, Peter, Jack Barnes, etc., is a PAID CONSERVATIVE TROLL who has conversations with himself under numerous screen names (including using others’ screen names - like mine), in order to disrupt liberal dialogue. IGNORE HIM.
Do a Google search for “Michael Hardesty” and you’ll see he does the same thing on other liberal message boards. How pathetic is that?
Posted by Lefty on Jul 12, 2005 at 12:03 PM
The bottom line is that there can be no road back for liberals until 1) they get the voting mechanism out of the clutches of the corporate whores who have an incentive to cheat, 2) the corporate whores who control most of the broadcast and print media are forced to divest those assets.
Without an informed public, and a vote count that accurately reflects the intent of the voters, the road back is blocked.
Posted by Lefty on Jul 12, 2005 at 12:07 PM
There is a growing progressive movement, which at this time is only a portion of the Democratic Party. The dawning is certainly the realization at how the conservatives have worked so hard over some 40 years to acheive their power through melding of diverse groups (religious right, big business, neocons, etc.) within their ideology, in effect they created a new ideology by thinking long term and allowing different aspects of the diverse groups to win at different times. It has been a success.
Progressives meanwhile drifted apart and concentrated on individual pet issues over those same years. We thought we had won the big battles in the 1960’s and essentially basked in our victories feeling that our issues would continue to win the day, simple complacency.
The mistake being made by the previous poster is thinking that all Democrats are considered progressives, not so at all. The Clinton fused Democratic Leadership Council (DLC) was an attempt to bring about a middle ground, they moved the party to the right rather than defend the high ground. The DLC is a battle that progressives will face.
The conservatives learned that Americans want positive sounding ideas based on easily understood positions, they developed their ideas and then learned to frame them. They noticably have used deception, but that deception became acceptable to Americans because they had been framed over many years to sound good.
Tax relief, sounds great doesn’t it? They’ve pounded this term into the brains of voters for years and now trying to defend taxes as something good for society has become hard to do. We’ve been cornered into using their terms, not ours. Taxes should be thought of as “investments in a strong America.”
Family values, who would be against that? The conservatives invented this phrase and call it their own, yet families have many definitions as to what that means. Progressive issues are family values, we just didn’t plan a framing assault for years to claim it for ourselves.
We need to start framing our ideas, so that Americans can come to understand what our ideas are. We believe in families as much as conservatives (maybe more), we believe in workers, we believe in a society that works together. We believe in “teamwork,” whether in a family, a workplace, a community. The word “teamwork” has not been used as a frame by the conservatives, yet. Start using teamwork to describe some of our progressive ideas.
Progressive is a better framing than liberal. Someday (the sooner the better) the debating talking heads on TV will be thought of as progressives vs. conservatives. The soundbite TV shorthand will someday be pro vs. con, and which sounds better from the get go? Pro is also positive in that it conjures up the word professional as con reminds one of convict.
Framing will help, but we need to work on the ideas foremost. And those ideas are not neo-liberal, they are the true left of the previous decades but adapted to our current societies.
Equality for instance. People in this country are disappointed (to say the least) in our corporate leaders. We must strive for creating more equality in the workplace (meaing top to bottom incomes/benefits), more democracy within a corporation (CEO/executive accountability). Build the arguement, create solutions for change, frame the issue.
There are so many issues that I could go on for many paragraphs. Essentially anything the conservatives are for, we are against. But the idea is to make our stance sound like we are for something, not sound like we oppose the conservatives.
It will happen. Conservatives spent many decades building to their position of power. Fortunately, their ideas put to the test are becoming unraveled. As well, we live in a fast society and progressives could catch up quickly. There will be a day that the Democratic Party will be run by true progressives, not Republican-lites and that day is approaching sooner than we might expect.
Posted by Jon on Jul 12, 2005 at 1:15 PM
Taxes are loot taken by force from
producers to subsidize nonproducers.
They are not investments in America
or club dues or the price of civilization
or whatever other code word nonsense that
Lakoff comes up with.
You can use whatever label you want but it
still has the same odor at the end of the day.
Most people do not believe in such a spurious
concept as equality but prefer individuality
and liberty.
The Democratic Party is getting more
irrelevant by the day.
As bad as W and the neocons are, these Dem
losers are worse yet !
Posted by Martin on Jul 12, 2005 at 1:26 PM
Does anyone know why the minimum wage is not indexed to either inflation or wage growth, like social security? I have never even seen this proposed, but it would be a wonderful thing!
Also, imho it would make good sense to have two levels of minimum wage: one for teens and college students (McJobs) and another for the least of us.
Posted by Beth on Jul 12, 2005 at 3:37 PM
A terrible idea, would cause even more
unemployment than the MW causes now.
Better idea would be to abolish it.
Posted by Martin on Jul 12, 2005 at 4:12 PM
Jon said:
“The conservatives learned that Americans want positive sounding ideas based on easily understood positions, they developed their ideas and then learned to frame them. They noticably have used deception, but that deception became acceptable to Americans because they had been framed over many years to sound good.”
It’s called brainwashing, Jon. The crook-Conservatives lie to the idiot-conservatives who swallow the lies hook, line and sinker.
BTW, I didn’t presume that all democrats are progressive. I don’t even know what those who use that word think it means. I know what Liberal means. That’s what I am, L-I-B-E-R-A-L. “Progressive” is no better word to describe the core values of liberals than “liberal.” The reason that some liberals now prefer “progressive” is because they have allowed conservatives to demonize the word liberal. So, they’ve just abandoned it.
I haven’t. I like the word liberal. It sounds like what it is: generous, kind, honest, informed, educated, flexible, improvizational, smart, wise, someone who can think on their feet, noble, fearless, brave. You know, all those good things that conservatives are not.
Posted by Lefty on Jul 12, 2005 at 5:02 PM
alright, enough already!
I’ve been reading these posts for a long time now, and have come to appreciate the thoughts from ‘Lefty’. The REAL ‘Lefty’, not the fake screen-name posting idiotic b.s. under other people’s names. Hey, buddy, we can tell it’s you! All your posts wrap incorrectly, and look f*cked up on the page. I’ve seen your weird rants below other articles too, and please just LEAVE.
Goodbye.
Goodbye also to Martin and Mikey, and whatever names you use. And don’t bother trying to lampoon ‘big red’ either, because I won’t be posting here again.
These debates have generally been worth a read, even when conservative-neocons jump in and make a ruckus. ‘Red State’, ‘U Scare Me’—those were worthy opponents. Fake Lefty, your ideas and exposition are weak, your proposals thoroughly unconsidered (abolish the minimum wage?!!!!) and you have no respect for others.
Go watch WWF and play with kids your own age.
Posted by big red on Jul 12, 2005 at 6:50 PM
whoa. Sorry Real Lefty for posting right after you. My rant was meant for the other guy.
I agree, bring back ‘liberal’ and make it mean something. If BushCo can co-opt the words ‘liberty’, ‘freedom’ and ‘democracy’ then we damn well better take back ‘liberal’
Posted by big red on Jul 12, 2005 at 6:53 PM
“our friend, Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), who has the daunting responsibility of representing our diverse Democratic Caucus and truly building a big tent under which all Democrats can stand and be heard.”
This makes me puke—Pelosi the biggest corporate whore of the democrat party, supporter of stay til we win in Iraq and voted for the Patriot Act. The democrats are a hopelessly corrupted and confused mess.
Posted by mark on Jul 12, 2005 at 8:45 PM
All these “progressive” and “liberal” ideas sound great and would maybe amount to something if the current crop of Reps and Sens would actually remember they are what used to be considered the “loyal opposition”. As the neocons have demonized anyone who does not agree with their ideas as disloyal to the country, in their eagerness to appear “patriotic”, they have forgotten the “opposition” part of the equation. While speaking of great progressive goals and ideas, they continue to roll over and fail to oppose the neocons’ agenda. This applies to support for an illegal war, federal court appointees, corporate welfare, taxes and just about every other issue that arises. They go along to get along (and re-elected), and until this changes, all the high-minded words and promises mean absolutely nothing. It’s no wonder so many left and moderate people are opting out of the system in disgust, while the right keeps on pumping out the propaganda and actually doing what they say they would do, even tho wrong. As for me, Canada, here I come.
Posted by vnsabd on Jul 13, 2005 at 7:50 AM
Mark said:
“This makes me puke
Posted by Lefty on Jul 13, 2005 at 8:52 AM
man you libs really are delisional. America rejects your commie/socialist crap. Get used to it. The left has been losing elections since’94 and you think you are gaining ground? what a joke. fag/gun control/femianzi and other stupid stuff just does not fly with the real America. Liberals are so stupid. what planet do you nutjobs live on??
Posted by red returns on Jul 13, 2005 at 9:11 AM
Where is the ‘real America’? Where is this magical place where they call people ‘fags’ and ‘feminazi’s? It sounds like a magical happy land where nothing needs to improve, where no one is in need of education or opportunities. It sounds like a place where I could fire a gun at anyone I wanted, any time, without someone trying to take it away.
Oh please, let me in! I long to breathe your NASCAR-fume air and bask in the glow of your acceptance of nothing except your own narrow white view of the world.
fuck off.
Posted by big red on Jul 13, 2005 at 9:21 AM
piss on you you liberal fag. you would not know the real America even if it jumps up and slaps your face- which it will soon. The folks who live in the red states believe in God- the right to bear arms and that homosexuality is wrong and an abberation. The real Americas is not in the liberal bastions of communism and socialism. You will find out when the real revolution comes- the one in which we will purge ASmerica of your sickness. thern we will have the real America back form you fag loving feminazibaby killing socialistscumbags.
Posted by liberala will pay on Jul 13, 2005 at 9:27 AM
Wow, what a pleasant person you are.
The Real America is a large country, filled with millions of people of all types, who have different dreams and visions for how a life should be lived. Just because you live in a narrow-minded community surrounded by people who look and sound like you, it doesn’t mean that that is The Real America.
Why don’t you travel around a bit, meet some people, maybe talk to someone whose skin is a different color than yours? Why not go see some of this America you claim to love so much, and realize how diverse and amazing it is. They are called ‘mobile homes’ for a reason.
Posted by big red on Jul 13, 2005 at 9:36 AM
Again I tell you please give up on the Dems they are becoming worse by the minute. Yes the Republicans are corporate whores but so are your friends the Dems. A real liberal progressive movement is needed but not by these fucks in the Dem party. The only reason they say this is too tease and trick us real liberal progressives into voting for them. Think about it they ran Al Gore in 2000 and John Kerry in 2004, those candidates were shit nothing but moderates they do not represent a progressive movement. Worse yet, and we all know it that right leaning she bitch from hell Hillary Clinton will be who they run in 2008. The Democrats had their chance and they fucked it up please stop buying into their game! Instead of supporting these corporate whores we can start a movement but not a movement where the entrenched Democratic leadership is not our voice and will never again be our voice. It is now our duty to call on those like Rep Woolsey, Howard Dean, Barack Obama, Dennis Kucinich and the other good Democrats who are progressives to join forces with the Green Party and Ralph Nader who also share our progressive values.
Thank You and Good Day
Vote Nader / Kucinich in 2008
Posted by Richard on Jul 13, 2005 at 12:08 PM
P.S.: Yes before you say it I know the chances of Nader and Kucinich running together are rather slim so dont bother pointing it out I realize that I was just saying thats who I personally would like to see run.
Thank You and Good Day
Posted by Richard on Jul 13, 2005 at 12:10 PM
Voted for Nader in 96 and 00, no regrets
though I’m well to the right of him on
econ issues but voted Kerry in 04.
Nothing but regrets. Dummycrats are
hopeless, they are all lining up to vote
for Gonzalez for Supremes.
Posted by Martin on Jul 13, 2005 at 12:35 PM
If any of you is interested in learning more about The Progressive Promise, you can find a more detailed platform-like document posted on Rep. Barbara Lee’s website, at http://www.house.gov/lee/releases/05June28.htm. I look forward to the launching of the Congressional Progressive Caucus website someday soon….
Posted by David on Jul 13, 2005 at 1:00 PM
Michael Hardesty, aka Martin, Mikey, Peter, Jack Barnes, etc., is a PAID CONSERVATIVE TROLL who has conversations with himself under numerous screen names (including hijacking others
Posted by Lefty on Jul 13, 2005 at 6:43 PM
USA’s mental decline is accelerating by the minute, according to the above comments.
First, you all talk about America as if the rest of the American continent didn’t exist, you throw darts to one another but miss the true point: nobody has chosen you to rule the world and, what’s worse, you are not fit for it. All you have is weapons (incredible amounts of them), institutions that do the dirty work for you: CIA, IMF, World Bank, you have tinted the planet with your small view of life, have started wars every time you decided it would suit your interest, continue polluting the planet with your oil-addiction, consume drugs by the ton, and your marvelous way of life is surprisingly shallow.
Let me tell you you are not living in a desert island, you have a strong economical or armed influence on the rest of the world and so far I have the impression you feel you are superior while all you have had is an immense arrogance and greed. Please, sit down and try to do some self-analysis, read and find out about other cultures, observe nature with its infinite variety of shapes and colours and develop a conscience that, unless your country changes its foreign policy you will all be responsible for the end of life on this planet which was meant to belong to every man, no matter its birth place.
Grow up, please, before it is too late.
Posted by Maria on Jul 13, 2005 at 8:03 PM
Maria,
Please don’t confuse conservative americans with Americans. Real Americans do not support Bush, his father’s CIA death squads, the IMF or World Bank whore houses.
Conservative Americans are a disease, they can’t get along with anyone and are properly despised by everyone in the world. There are only 2 kinds of conservatives: idiots and crooks. Real Americans are neither.
Posted by Lefty on Jul 14, 2005 at 5:50 AM
Maria, thanks for the constructive criticism. Why don’t you name your country so I can return the favor?
Posted by Lemuel on Jul 14, 2005 at 7:30 AM
FACT: All Death Metal fans are extremely devoted.—- please don’t let any pussies talk trash about metal on this site.
FACT: MALAMOR signed a record deal with Japanese label Amputated Vein Records to release the long awaited CD - DEAD TO THE WORLD.—- this is good news because malamor is without a doubt one of the most intense and brutal death metal bands on the planet. ben kolt’s growling dark voice rapes your soul over and over and sean kennedy’s battle ax is like an anvil of pain.
FACT: Fleshgrind’s new album ‘murder without end’ is so raw and pulverizing that it is now in my personal top 10 of all time.—- check them out at THE UNHOLY AFTERBIRTH FESTIVAL in chicago heights on dec. 27-28. they’re rocking with Evil Incarnate, Anal Blast, Screaming Afterbirth, Dyscrasia, & Decadent.
FACT: I will pillage for tickets to the new jersey metal and hardcore festival.—let me know if i can rape or kill you for a pair. 678.232.4469 or online at paindom69@yahoogroups.metal.com
keep count grishnack in your nightmares.
Lefty
Posted by Lefty on Jul 14, 2005 at 7:44 AM
How many times have you heard one your favourite bands being slagged by another Metalhead who doesn’t listen to or understand the Metal sub-genres you love?
The reality is this
Posted by orthgar on Jul 14, 2005 at 7:46 AM
From the real Lefty…. ” I like the word liberal.
Posted by Jon on Jul 14, 2005 at 7:52 AM
SILENCE CUNTS! The wrath of the destroyer is upon your worthless asses! Behold your end:
I call to the mighty bringer of light, LUCIFER!
Spirits of the abyss, hear my call
all most powerful one and all.
Lucifer my thoughts do sing
through the universe they now ring.
Take Mike thine enemy, take him smite.
Break him, scorn him in the night.
From the mighty depths of hell
cast your darkness on his shell.
Oh Lucifer, oh stunning star
Touch him, burn him from afar!
Revenge now will have its day
For thine enemy starts to fray.
So mote it be!
Posted by Lefty on Jul 14, 2005 at 7:56 AM
To Lemuel: i’m English and fuck your constructive criticism. The day i take advice from the birthplace of MTV and the cradle of Christian nazism is the day i let little Westlife-lovin miscegenists like yourself give lessons on good music. Do i hate USA? Fuckin right i do and if your dont understand read closely:
After i a lovely sleep on Sunday morning, i woke up, had my usual Fag and felt the warm air from outside. I head back upstairs listen to my new album ( STAMPIN’ GROUND ‘‘carved from empty words’‘) which is a fuckin corker, play the stringed instrument (guitar) for a while and head back down stairs to have some dinner. But as i sat down there was a seriously (errr…) disturbing film on…..........Willy Wonka and the chocolate factory, I mean when you think about it, it’s really is fucked, 5 lucky kids get to go into a big factory to eat a life supply of chocolate, and what happens….they either get stuck into a suckin machine, thrown down a hole which leads to a furnace or turned into a midget. This film is almost as bad a the Labryinth (david bowie) or Dark Crystal. Why don’t they make quality films like them today, Cause the shitty BBFC say ‘‘nnnooo’’ we can’t poison the kids of today with that….i mean for fucks sake the threw ‘‘Bill & Ben the flower pot men’’ off the air. On MTV they censor ‘‘Robbie Williams’s new video’’ (not that i’m arsed of seeing his fat fuckin arse anyway). I swear if ISOR ever had a chance to make a music video it will be proper sick shit, images from such sites like rotten.com and gruesome.com. Fuck society…it stinks of bad arses, I mean who the fuck gives them the right to censor my viewing. We all pay the sky/t.v payments. Now MTV has stopped the only Metal program on MTV…they obviously think were a dying breed. Well fuck MTV, fuck pop music and fuck the BBFC, you can all chomp on a dick.
Posted by Maria on Jul 14, 2005 at 8:22 AM
maria did they taech you all this crap in college or MTV . This is supposed to be a free country and as such Amercians have the right to be free from liberal/socialist propoganda. Christian nazism?? where DO you get this crap from?? Who told you Christians were nazis?? Just because we adhere to a set of rules and values we are nazis?it sounds like you on the left are nazis- diversity at the end of a gun ain’t diversity. Forced diversity is Naziism.
when i think of liberals I think of forcing gay “rights” on everybody. Liberlaism means only women get a “choice”. liberalism means no second ammendment and persecution for us eveil white men,higher taxes for lazy asses and more persecution for Christians, families and others of faith. Liberals mean war to those of us who will not buy the bullshit from the left wing lunatics and commies. This is MY country and many others who think like me will not sit by peaceably and let the liberal scumbags pervert our beliefs. whata bunch of mindless nazi fucks you all are on the left- and all your little friends lucifer included you all make me laugh at your utter stupidity. get ready for the battle for America- it’s coming soon. you lose.
Posted by lynch a liberal on Jul 14, 2005 at 9:08 AM
I know Mar
Posted by Mar on Jul 14, 2005 at 2:39 PM
.
Posted by . on Jul 14, 2005 at 8:21 PM
I write from outside the US. Prior to the elections I noted on an InTheseTimes blog:
“The most refreshing thing about Nader joining the election fray is that now, hopefully, the quality of debate will be enhanced.
Hopefully, Nader’s presence and his ideas will force the mediocre media to begin to do its real homework and survey/listen to the real world of real unemployed/ underemployed and misemployed who, out of need or ignorance, continue the grinding destruction of a beautiful planet.
Now with Nader’s entrance, hopefully, citizens can start asking the big question of planetary mortality, institutional gridlock and economic collapse of the majority with a ‘freedom’ not supplied very well by a GOP-governed mass media.
This is only the primaries. Now is the time for ‘free and open’ debate, exploration of our national soul, beginning the democratic process of self-government in an age needing to rationalize sustainability.”
Alas.
America chose to ignore the debate, the facts, the voices of millions of her progressive caring citizens. And now it is post—the memo leak, the London bombing, and the Karl Rove debacle/cover-up, where, as Palast mentions, if it is not Rove it comes from within the White House by a Rove-like whisperer.
To the ‘real world’ of thinking people, outside the mis-information mainstream media in continental USA, now is the time for truth to shine. Odinary, everyday American voters have a choice to show the world what the power and purpose of a democratic system is. They can use their voting power to impeach. Or, they can allow the charade to continue.
The American voters have within their power to impeach a wholly fascist administration and its mis-directed thought, planning and policys.
Indeed, should the American democractic experiment rise to the test, it could show the rest of the ‘real world’ of ordinary, thinking people that within human reason lies a never failing understanding that there is a real difference between right and wrong.
That Government and its Administration policies are not only for egg-heads and specialists. No, policies have immediate and vital energy. These dry papers, these minutes/memos/policies tomes have the power to shred 50-years of humane honorable International Conventions, or the power to continue a secret war of bombing when no international convention for war exists and continue firing lethal weapons on Afghan wedding parties, Iraqi villages and their surrounding homes/stores.
Minutes and Memos can enable freedom by empowering justice. A monumental choice.
When the ‘real people’ thinking-majority remind hegmonic minds of their hubris, cowardice and self-serving aims (see a war industry and suppliers’ revenue figures, ie. the Halliburton’s): a real movement of peace will have begun. And then the dastardly egoism of suicide bombing of innocent people will be revealed for all to see its nake hate.
And when the ordinary voter uses the democratic tools of impeachment for ‘high crimes” - and what more than sending citizens to their deaths in ill-conceived, un-called for aggression, & gerry-rigged by lies, could “high crimes” mean?: then the world will have a preme-time democratic example upon which to build a peaceful, sustaining 21st century.
Is the American voter ready?
Posted by Paul L. Johnson on Jul 15, 2005 at 2:36 AM
is that all you libs have- Bush is Nazi?? yeah you are really gonna win over America with that?? what delusional fools you lefties are. what a bunch of delusional whiners and fools. I canot wait til aught 8 . maybe twhen you lose even more you will get the message that we don’t want your socialist slime.
Posted by what a bunch or liberal whiners on Jul 15, 2005 at 9:05 AM
Cheney was wrong about the insurgency being in its “death throes”, but he could change that to “neocon Bush-lovers” and it would have been correct.
Listen to the screams of the Libertarian-cum-conservative Michael Hardesty/Jack Barnes/Fake Lefty and it’s just like watching a vampire be bathed in full sulight. Delightful to hear!
Posted by Margaret on Jul 15, 2005 at 4:39 PM
OOOPPPSSS!!!
I meant sunlight.
Posted by Margaret on Jul 15, 2005 at 4:40 PM
Margaret,
It’s been about 2 days and I haven’t seen any Michael Hardesty trolling. In another thread, someone said they complained to the webmaster that he was posting under other peoples names. Apparently, he’s been busted. It seems to me that his obscenities, posting under multiple names in an attempt to disrupt and hijack threads, should have been enough to get him banned.
Ever since I started posting warnings after each of his schizoid posts, he stopped trying to pretend to be a serious libertarian (as if), and just deteriorated into a frothing, hateful, bigoted, conservative. Or maybe, with all his hate and anger, he just gave himself a stroke.
Posted by Lefty on Jul 17, 2005 at 9:48 PM
hi,i’m everybody on this web site,and i just busted myself,so i won’t be able to respond to myself any more.sorry if i offended myself,or myself for that matter.
Posted by mike on Jul 18, 2005 at 8:56 PM
And now for something completely different,I think,(or maybe just hope),that this article is closer to the mark than some people might think.The fact that some people,(spit spewing conservative hate-mongers to be exact),post under different names,just to disrupt the conversation,shows just how little they have in the way of ideas to offer to solve the problems we have.all they can do is to try to keep truly thoughtful people from any meaningful discourse.And they have nothing to offer.Has anybody listened to Gush Limpballs lately?Or Ann Coulter?Or any of the other conservative radio whores out there?They’re off the deep end.Nothing they talk about has anything to do with reality.People are waking up to the growing failure in Iraq,and to the corruption of this administration,and all the putrid eminations from the ‘sell-outs’ in radio-land can’t change that.You can put lipstick on a pig,but it’s still a pig.Any way,I guess my point is that the existence of these multiple personality posters just validates the article.So there,na-nana-nana-na!PLBBBBBT!!!!
Posted by mike on Jul 18, 2005 at 9:55 PM
The Immoral Majority
According to Jerry Falwell not so long ago it has taken 25 years in order for the immoral majority to take control of the
republican party. This began with Reagan/Bush and the immoral majority did not look back.
IMO the republican party and and the true definition of conservative is now dead. Members of the republican party have been duped. Disgruntled democrats,republicans and the green party maybe could be the peoples third party.
One day voters will wake up and realize that they must pay attention instead of going to the polls and voting for someone just because they claim to affiliated with one party or the other. Yes even democrats also should be paying attention as the deceitful and lying immoral majority probaly have that party in their sights.
It
Posted by merrill on Jul 21, 2005 at 9:58 AM
I like the out of Iraq rhetoric.How about taxpayer funded medical care such that our elected officials have…it would be very helpful to america’s small business?
Since the immoral majority has taken control of the republican(?) party I would say the republican party is dead.
Posted by merrill on Jul 21, 2005 at 10:32 AM
Taxpayer funded insurance would be the best solution. Number it would drive economic growth as it would provide incentive for new better paying employers. Number two it would reduce the cost of medical care due to the number of
people under one company’s umbrella. Number three additional savings would be realized due to reducing the paper work which typically adds about 30% to cost…one policy holder = less paper.
Number four with all taxpayers under one policy would create a lucrative buy for any insurance company. This policy could be put up for bid frequently thus keeping cost of coverage reasonable.
Posted by merrill on Jul 22, 2005 at 2:26 AM
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Reader Comments
The Congresswoman is whistling through her
teeth. There is no progressive revival.
Anti-Bush sentiment does not a philosophy
make, the same people were pushing this ABB
line last year and they got buried at the polls.
There has been much harsher and more consistent
criticism of Bush on the libertarian lew rockwell
and antiwar.com sites than in all of the left.
Americans want lower taxes, to keep their guns
and cars, oppose affirmative action, oppose
Kyoto Treaty,letting social security & medicare
slide into bankruptcy and unfortunately 56% of
them even oppose US troop withdrawal from Iraq.
The Dems have no new ideas, just the old New
Deal retreads.
Michael Hardesty, aka Martin, Mikey, Peter, Jack Barnes, etc., is a PAID CONSERVATIVE TROLL who has conversations with himself under numerous screen names (including using others’ screen names - like mine), in order to disrupt liberal dialogue. IGNORE HIM.
Do a Google search for “Michael Hardesty” and you’ll see he does the same thing on other liberal message boards. How pathetic is that?
The bottom line is that there can be no road back for liberals until 1) they get the voting mechanism out of the clutches of the corporate whores who have an incentive to cheat, 2) the corporate whores who control most of the broadcast and print media are forced to divest those assets.
Without an informed public, and a vote count that accurately reflects the intent of the voters, the road back is blocked.
There is a growing progressive movement, which at this time is only a portion of the Democratic Party. The dawning is certainly the realization at how the conservatives have worked so hard over some 40 years to acheive their power through melding of diverse groups (religious right, big business, neocons, etc.) within their ideology, in effect they created a new ideology by thinking long term and allowing different aspects of the diverse groups to win at different times. It has been a success.
Progressives meanwhile drifted apart and concentrated on individual pet issues over those same years. We thought we had won the big battles in the 1960’s and essentially basked in our victories feeling that our issues would continue to win the day, simple complacency.
The mistake being made by the previous poster is thinking that all Democrats are considered progressives, not so at all. The Clinton fused Democratic Leadership Council (DLC) was an attempt to bring about a middle ground, they moved the party to the right rather than defend the high ground. The DLC is a battle that progressives will face.
The conservatives learned that Americans want positive sounding ideas based on easily understood positions, they developed their ideas and then learned to frame them. They noticably have used deception, but that deception became acceptable to Americans because they had been framed over many years to sound good.
Tax relief, sounds great doesn’t it? They’ve pounded this term into the brains of voters for years and now trying to defend taxes as something good for society has become hard to do. We’ve been cornered into using their terms, not ours. Taxes should be thought of as “investments in a strong America.”
Family values, who would be against that? The conservatives invented this phrase and call it their own, yet families have many definitions as to what that means. Progressive issues are family values, we just didn’t plan a framing assault for years to claim it for ourselves.
We need to start framing our ideas, so that Americans can come to understand what our ideas are. We believe in families as much as conservatives (maybe more), we believe in workers, we believe in a society that works together. We believe in “teamwork,” whether in a family, a workplace, a community. The word “teamwork” has not been used as a frame by the conservatives, yet. Start using teamwork to describe some of our progressive ideas.
Progressive is a better framing than liberal. Someday (the sooner the better) the debating talking heads on TV will be thought of as progressives vs. conservatives. The soundbite TV shorthand will someday be pro vs. con, and which sounds better from the get go? Pro is also positive in that it conjures up the word professional as con reminds one of convict.
Framing will help, but we need to work on the ideas foremost. And those ideas are not neo-liberal, they are the true left of the previous decades but adapted to our current societies.
Equality for instance. People in this country are disappointed (to say the least) in our corporate leaders. We must strive for creating more equality in the workplace (meaing top to bottom incomes/benefits), more democracy within a corporation (CEO/executive accountability). Build the arguement, create solutions for change, frame the issue.
There are so many issues that I could go on for many paragraphs. Essentially anything the conservatives are for, we are against. But the idea is to make our stance sound like we are for something, not sound like we oppose the conservatives.
It will happen. Conservatives spent many decades building to their position of power. Fortunately, their ideas put to the test are becoming unraveled. As well, we live in a fast society and progressives could catch up quickly. There will be a day that the Democratic Party will be run by true progressives, not Republican-lites and that day is approaching sooner than we might expect.
Taxes are loot taken by force from
producers to subsidize nonproducers.
They are not investments in America
or club dues or the price of civilization
or whatever other code word nonsense that
Lakoff comes up with.
You can use whatever label you want but it
still has the same odor at the end of the day.
Most people do not believe in such a spurious
concept as equality but prefer individuality
and liberty.
The Democratic Party is getting more
irrelevant by the day.
As bad as W and the neocons are, these Dem
losers are worse yet !
Does anyone know why the minimum wage is not indexed to either inflation or wage growth, like social security? I have never even seen this proposed, but it would be a wonderful thing!
Also, imho it would make good sense to have two levels of minimum wage: one for teens and college students (McJobs) and another for the least of us.
A terrible idea, would cause even more
unemployment than the MW causes now.
Better idea would be to abolish it.
Jon said:
“The conservatives learned that Americans want positive sounding ideas based on easily understood positions, they developed their ideas and then learned to frame them. They noticably have used deception, but that deception became acceptable to Americans because they had been framed over many years to sound good.”
It’s called brainwashing, Jon. The crook-Conservatives lie to the idiot-conservatives who swallow the lies hook, line and sinker.
BTW, I didn’t presume that all democrats are progressive. I don’t even know what those who use that word think it means. I know what Liberal means. That’s what I am, L-I-B-E-R-A-L. “Progressive” is no better word to describe the core values of liberals than “liberal.” The reason that some liberals now prefer “progressive” is because they have allowed conservatives to demonize the word liberal. So, they’ve just abandoned it.
I haven’t. I like the word liberal. It sounds like what it is: generous, kind, honest, informed, educated, flexible, improvizational, smart, wise, someone who can think on their feet, noble, fearless, brave. You know, all those good things that conservatives are not.
alright, enough already!
I’ve been reading these posts for a long time now, and have come to appreciate the thoughts from ‘Lefty’. The REAL ‘Lefty’, not the fake screen-name posting idiotic b.s. under other people’s names. Hey, buddy, we can tell it’s you! All your posts wrap incorrectly, and look f*cked up on the page. I’ve seen your weird rants below other articles too, and please just LEAVE.
Goodbye.
Goodbye also to Martin and Mikey, and whatever names you use. And don’t bother trying to lampoon ‘big red’ either, because I won’t be posting here again.
These debates have generally been worth a read, even when conservative-neocons jump in and make a ruckus. ‘Red State’, ‘U Scare Me’—those were worthy opponents. Fake Lefty, your ideas and exposition are weak, your proposals thoroughly unconsidered (abolish the minimum wage?!!!!) and you have no respect for others.
Go watch WWF and play with kids your own age.
whoa. Sorry Real Lefty for posting right after you. My rant was meant for the other guy.
I agree, bring back ‘liberal’ and make it mean something. If BushCo can co-opt the words ‘liberty’, ‘freedom’ and ‘democracy’ then we damn well better take back ‘liberal’
“our friend, Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.), who has the daunting responsibility of representing our diverse Democratic Caucus and truly building a big tent under which all Democrats can stand and be heard.”
This makes me puke—Pelosi the biggest corporate whore of the democrat party, supporter of stay til we win in Iraq and voted for the Patriot Act. The democrats are a hopelessly corrupted and confused mess.
All these “progressive” and “liberal” ideas sound great and would maybe amount to something if the current crop of Reps and Sens would actually remember they are what used to be considered the “loyal opposition”. As the neocons have demonized anyone who does not agree with their ideas as disloyal to the country, in their eagerness to appear “patriotic”, they have forgotten the “opposition” part of the equation. While speaking of great progressive goals and ideas, they continue to roll over and fail to oppose the neocons’ agenda. This applies to support for an illegal war, federal court appointees, corporate welfare, taxes and just about every other issue that arises. They go along to get along (and re-elected), and until this changes, all the high-minded words and promises mean absolutely nothing. It’s no wonder so many left and moderate people are opting out of the system in disgust, while the right keeps on pumping out the propaganda and actually doing what they say they would do, even tho wrong. As for me, Canada, here I come.
Mark said:
“This makes me puke
man you libs really are delisional. America rejects your commie/socialist crap. Get used to it. The left has been losing elections since’94 and you think you are gaining ground? what a joke. fag/gun control/femianzi and other stupid stuff just does not fly with the real America. Liberals are so stupid. what planet do you nutjobs live on??
Where is the ‘real America’? Where is this magical place where they call people ‘fags’ and ‘feminazi’s? It sounds like a magical happy land where nothing needs to improve, where no one is in need of education or opportunities. It sounds like a place where I could fire a gun at anyone I wanted, any time, without someone trying to take it away.
Oh please, let me in! I long to breathe your NASCAR-fume air and bask in the glow of your acceptance of nothing except your own narrow white view of the world.
fuck off.
piss on you you liberal fag. you would not know the real America even if it jumps up and slaps your face- which it will soon. The folks who live in the red states believe in God- the right to bear arms and that homosexuality is wrong and an abberation. The real Americas is not in the liberal bastions of communism and socialism. You will find out when the real revolution comes- the one in which we will purge ASmerica of your sickness. thern we will have the real America back form you fag loving feminazibaby killing socialistscumbags.
Wow, what a pleasant person you are.
The Real America is a large country, filled with millions of people of all types, who have different dreams and visions for how a life should be lived. Just because you live in a narrow-minded community surrounded by people who look and sound like you, it doesn’t mean that that is The Real America.
Why don’t you travel around a bit, meet some people, maybe talk to someone whose skin is a different color than yours? Why not go see some of this America you claim to love so much, and realize how diverse and amazing it is. They are called ‘mobile homes’ for a reason.
Again I tell you please give up on the Dems they are becoming worse by the minute. Yes the Republicans are corporate whores but so are your friends the Dems. A real liberal progressive movement is needed but not by these fucks in the Dem party. The only reason they say this is too tease and trick us real liberal progressives into voting for them. Think about it they ran Al Gore in 2000 and John Kerry in 2004, those candidates were shit nothing but moderates they do not represent a progressive movement. Worse yet, and we all know it that right leaning she bitch from hell Hillary Clinton will be who they run in 2008. The Democrats had their chance and they fucked it up please stop buying into their game! Instead of supporting these corporate whores we can start a movement but not a movement where the entrenched Democratic leadership is not our voice and will never again be our voice. It is now our duty to call on those like Rep Woolsey, Howard Dean, Barack Obama, Dennis Kucinich and the other good Democrats who are progressives to join forces with the Green Party and Ralph Nader who also share our progressive values.
Thank You and Good Day
Vote Nader / Kucinich in 2008
P.S.: Yes before you say it I know the chances of Nader and Kucinich running together are rather slim so dont bother pointing it out I realize that I was just saying thats who I personally would like to see run.
Thank You and Good Day
Voted for Nader in 96 and 00, no regrets
though I’m well to the right of him on
econ issues but voted Kerry in 04.
Nothing but regrets. Dummycrats are
hopeless, they are all lining up to vote
for Gonzalez for Supremes.
If any of you is interested in learning more about The Progressive Promise, you can find a more detailed platform-like document posted on Rep. Barbara Lee’s website, at http://www.house.gov/lee/releases/05June28.htm. I look forward to the launching of the Congressional Progressive Caucus website someday soon….
Michael Hardesty, aka Martin, Mikey, Peter, Jack Barnes, etc., is a PAID CONSERVATIVE TROLL who has conversations with himself under numerous screen names (including hijacking others
USA’s mental decline is accelerating by the minute, according to the above comments.
First, you all talk about America as if the rest of the American continent didn’t exist, you throw darts to one another but miss the true point: nobody has chosen you to rule the world and, what’s worse, you are not fit for it. All you have is weapons (incredible amounts of them), institutions that do the dirty work for you: CIA, IMF, World Bank, you have tinted the planet with your small view of life, have started wars every time you decided it would suit your interest, continue polluting the planet with your oil-addiction, consume drugs by the ton, and your marvelous way of life is surprisingly shallow.
Let me tell you you are not living in a desert island, you have a strong economical or armed influence on the rest of the world and so far I have the impression you feel you are superior while all you have had is an immense arrogance and greed. Please, sit down and try to do some self-analysis, read and find out about other cultures, observe nature with its infinite variety of shapes and colours and develop a conscience that, unless your country changes its foreign policy you will all be responsible for the end of life on this planet which was meant to belong to every man, no matter its birth place.
Grow up, please, before it is too late.
Maria,
Please don’t confuse conservative americans with Americans. Real Americans do not support Bush, his father’s CIA death squads, the IMF or World Bank whore houses.
Conservative Americans are a disease, they can’t get along with anyone and are properly despised by everyone in the world. There are only 2 kinds of conservatives: idiots and crooks. Real Americans are neither.
Maria, thanks for the constructive criticism. Why don’t you name your country so I can return the favor?
FACT: All Death Metal fans are extremely devoted.—- please don’t let any pussies talk trash about metal on this site.
FACT: MALAMOR signed a record deal with Japanese label Amputated Vein Records to release the long awaited CD - DEAD TO THE WORLD.—- this is good news because malamor is without a doubt one of the most intense and brutal death metal bands on the planet. ben kolt’s growling dark voice rapes your soul over and over and sean kennedy’s battle ax is like an anvil of pain.
FACT: Fleshgrind’s new album ‘murder without end’ is so raw and pulverizing that it is now in my personal top 10 of all time.—- check them out at THE UNHOLY AFTERBIRTH FESTIVAL in chicago heights on dec. 27-28. they’re rocking with Evil Incarnate, Anal Blast, Screaming Afterbirth, Dyscrasia, & Decadent.
FACT: I will pillage for tickets to the new jersey metal and hardcore festival.—let me know if i can rape or kill you for a pair. 678.232.4469 or online at paindom69@yahoogroups.metal.com
keep count grishnack in your nightmares.
Lefty
How many times have you heard one your favourite bands being slagged by another Metalhead who doesn’t listen to or understand the Metal sub-genres you love?
The reality is this
From the real Lefty…. ” I like the word liberal.
SILENCE CUNTS! The wrath of the destroyer is upon your worthless asses! Behold your end:
I call to the mighty bringer of light, LUCIFER!
Spirits of the abyss, hear my call
all most powerful one and all.
Lucifer my thoughts do sing
through the universe they now ring.
Take Mike thine enemy, take him smite.
Break him, scorn him in the night.
From the mighty depths of hell
cast your darkness on his shell.
Oh Lucifer, oh stunning star
Touch him, burn him from afar!
Revenge now will have its day
For thine enemy starts to fray.
So mote it be!
To Lemuel: i’m English and fuck your constructive criticism. The day i take advice from the birthplace of MTV and the cradle of Christian nazism is the day i let little Westlife-lovin miscegenists like yourself give lessons on good music. Do i hate USA? Fuckin right i do and if your dont understand read closely:
After i a lovely sleep on Sunday morning, i woke up, had my usual Fag and felt the warm air from outside. I head back upstairs listen to my new album ( STAMPIN’ GROUND ‘‘carved from empty words’‘) which is a fuckin corker, play the stringed instrument (guitar) for a while and head back down stairs to have some dinner. But as i sat down there was a seriously (errr…) disturbing film on…..........Willy Wonka and the chocolate factory, I mean when you think about it, it’s really is fucked, 5 lucky kids get to go into a big factory to eat a life supply of chocolate, and what happens….they either get stuck into a suckin machine, thrown down a hole which leads to a furnace or turned into a midget. This film is almost as bad a the Labryinth (david bowie) or Dark Crystal. Why don’t they make quality films like them today, Cause the shitty BBFC say ‘‘nnnooo’’ we can’t poison the kids of today with that….i mean for fucks sake the threw ‘‘Bill & Ben the flower pot men’’ off the air. On MTV they censor ‘‘Robbie Williams’s new video’’ (not that i’m arsed of seeing his fat fuckin arse anyway). I swear if ISOR ever had a chance to make a music video it will be proper sick shit, images from such sites like rotten.com and gruesome.com. Fuck society…it stinks of bad arses, I mean who the fuck gives them the right to censor my viewing. We all pay the sky/t.v payments. Now MTV has stopped the only Metal program on MTV…they obviously think were a dying breed. Well fuck MTV, fuck pop music and fuck the BBFC, you can all chomp on a dick.
maria did they taech you all this crap in college or MTV . This is supposed to be a free country and as such Amercians have the right to be free from liberal/socialist propoganda. Christian nazism?? where DO you get this crap from?? Who told you Christians were nazis?? Just because we adhere to a set of rules and values we are nazis?it sounds like you on the left are nazis- diversity at the end of a gun ain’t diversity. Forced diversity is Naziism.
when i think of liberals I think of forcing gay “rights” on everybody. Liberlaism means only women get a “choice”. liberalism means no second ammendment and persecution for us eveil white men,higher taxes for lazy asses and more persecution for Christians, families and others of faith. Liberals mean war to those of us who will not buy the bullshit from the left wing lunatics and commies. This is MY country and many others who think like me will not sit by peaceably and let the liberal scumbags pervert our beliefs. whata bunch of mindless nazi fucks you all are on the left- and all your little friends lucifer included you all make me laugh at your utter stupidity. get ready for the battle for America- it’s coming soon. you lose.
I know Mar
.
I write from outside the US. Prior to the elections I noted on an InTheseTimes blog:
“The most refreshing thing about Nader joining the election fray is that now, hopefully, the quality of debate will be enhanced.
Hopefully, Nader’s presence and his ideas will force the mediocre media to begin to do its real homework and survey/listen to the real world of real unemployed/ underemployed and misemployed who, out of need or ignorance, continue the grinding destruction of a beautiful planet.
Now with Nader’s entrance, hopefully, citizens can start asking the big question of planetary mortality, institutional gridlock and economic collapse of the majority with a ‘freedom’ not supplied very well by a GOP-governed mass media.
This is only the primaries. Now is the time for ‘free and open’ debate, exploration of our national soul, beginning the democratic process of self-government in an age needing to rationalize sustainability.”
Alas.
America chose to ignore the debate, the facts, the voices of millions of her progressive caring citizens. And now it is post—the memo leak, the London bombing, and the Karl Rove debacle/cover-up, where, as Palast mentions, if it is not Rove it comes from within the White House by a Rove-like whisperer.
To the ‘real world’ of thinking people, outside the mis-information mainstream media in continental USA, now is the time for truth to shine. Odinary, everyday American voters have a choice to show the world what the power and purpose of a democratic system is. They can use their voting power to impeach. Or, they can allow the charade to continue.
The American voters have within their power to impeach a wholly fascist administration and its mis-directed thought, planning and policys.
Indeed, should the American democractic experiment rise to the test, it could show the rest of the ‘real world’ of ordinary, thinking people that within human reason lies a never failing understanding that there is a real difference between right and wrong.
That Government and its Administration policies are not only for egg-heads and specialists. No, policies have immediate and vital energy. These dry papers, these minutes/memos/policies tomes have the power to shred 50-years of humane honorable International Conventions, or the power to continue a secret war of bombing when no international convention for war exists and continue firing lethal weapons on Afghan wedding parties, Iraqi villages and their surrounding homes/stores.
Minutes and Memos can enable freedom by empowering justice. A monumental choice.
When the ‘real people’ thinking-majority remind hegmonic minds of their hubris, cowardice and self-serving aims (see a war industry and suppliers’ revenue figures, ie. the Halliburton’s): a real movement of peace will have begun. And then the dastardly egoism of suicide bombing of innocent people will be revealed for all to see its nake hate.
And when the ordinary voter uses the democratic tools of impeachment for ‘high crimes” - and what more than sending citizens to their deaths in ill-conceived, un-called for aggression, & gerry-rigged by lies, could “high crimes” mean?: then the world will have a preme-time democratic example upon which to build a peaceful, sustaining 21st century.
Is the American voter ready?
is that all you libs have- Bush is Nazi?? yeah you are really gonna win over America with that?? what delusional fools you lefties are. what a bunch of delusional whiners and fools. I canot wait til aught 8 . maybe twhen you lose even more you will get the message that we don’t want your socialist slime.
Cheney was wrong about the insurgency being in its “death throes”, but he could change that to “neocon Bush-lovers” and it would have been correct.
Listen to the screams of the Libertarian-cum-conservative Michael Hardesty/Jack Barnes/Fake Lefty and it’s just like watching a vampire be bathed in full sulight. Delightful to hear!
OOOPPPSSS!!!
I meant sunlight.
Margaret,
It’s been about 2 days and I haven’t seen any Michael Hardesty trolling. In another thread, someone said they complained to the webmaster that he was posting under other peoples names. Apparently, he’s been busted. It seems to me that his obscenities, posting under multiple names in an attempt to disrupt and hijack threads, should have been enough to get him banned.
Ever since I started posting warnings after each of his schizoid posts, he stopped trying to pretend to be a serious libertarian (as if), and just deteriorated into a frothing, hateful, bigoted, conservative. Or maybe, with all his hate and anger, he just gave himself a stroke.
hi,i’m everybody on this web site,and i just busted myself,so i won’t be able to respond to myself any more.sorry if i offended myself,or myself for that matter.
And now for something completely different,I think,(or maybe just hope),that this article is closer to the mark than some people might think.The fact that some people,(spit spewing conservative hate-mongers to be exact),post under different names,just to disrupt the conversation,shows just how little they have in the way of ideas to offer to solve the problems we have.all they can do is to try to keep truly thoughtful people from any meaningful discourse.And they have nothing to offer.Has anybody listened to Gush Limpballs lately?Or Ann Coulter?Or any of the other conservative radio whores out there?They’re off the deep end.Nothing they talk about has anything to do with reality.People are waking up to the growing failure in Iraq,and to the corruption of this administration,and all the putrid eminations from the ‘sell-outs’ in radio-land can’t change that.You can put lipstick on a pig,but it’s still a pig.Any way,I guess my point is that the existence of these multiple personality posters just validates the article.So there,na-nana-nana-na!PLBBBBBT!!!!
The Immoral Majority
According to Jerry Falwell not so long ago it has taken 25 years in order for the immoral majority to take control of the
republican party. This began with Reagan/Bush and the immoral majority did not look back.
IMO the republican party and and the true definition of conservative is now dead. Members of the republican party have been duped. Disgruntled democrats,republicans and the green party maybe could be the peoples third party.
One day voters will wake up and realize that they must pay attention instead of going to the polls and voting for someone just because they claim to affiliated with one party or the other. Yes even democrats also should be paying attention as the deceitful and lying immoral majority probaly have that party in their sights.
It
I like the out of Iraq rhetoric.How about taxpayer funded medical care such that our elected officials have…it would be very helpful to america’s small business?
Since the immoral majority has taken control of the republican(?) party I would say the republican party is dead.
Taxpayer funded insurance would be the best solution. Number it would drive economic growth as it would provide incentive for new better paying employers. Number two it would reduce the cost of medical care due to the number of
people under one company’s umbrella. Number three additional savings would be realized due to reducing the paper work which typically adds about 30% to cost…one policy holder = less paper.
Number four with all taxpayers under one policy would create a lucrative buy for any insurance company. This policy could be put up for bid frequently thus keeping cost of coverage reasonable.
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