Radioactive Wounds of War

‘“When we asked to be tested at Ft. Dix, they wrongly told us we didn’t have to worry unless we had DU fragments in our body,” says Matthew. His buddy, Sgt. Ramos, who exhibits symptoms resembling radiation sickness and heavy metal poisoning, adds that at Walter Reed Medical Center he was grilled for hours about why he wanted to be tested and was then branded a troublemaker by his own unit. Matthew says Walter Reed “lost” his sample.’

Nothing like supporting our troops, is there? If this constitutes support, they’d be better off with the protestors.

“ ‘It doesn’t seem right that we are poisoning the places we are supposed to be liberating,’ Ramos says.”

I couldn’t agree more. The use of depleted uranium (DU) and napalm, after it was made illegal, is one of the greatest unreported, unpublicized atrocities of our time. Not since Vietnam forty years ago when the U.S. military used agent orange and white phosphorus have we seen a greater example of our nation’s moral bankruptcy and hypocrisy. Iraqis are free? From what? Certainly not the ability to live in a safe country free from radiocative waste that will haunt their offspring for generations to come. Add the use of DU to the list of atrocities and blatant human rights violations the Bush administration has committed in its quest to “liberate” Iraq.

Even worse is the fact that DU effects our own soldiers as well. That the administration has not sought to rectify the health consequences of the use of DU on its own people is one of the greatest travesties in American history. Supportive of the troops? My foot! Only the left-wing and the peace movement have brought this matter to the public’s attention. I have seen fliers at peace rallies documenting the horrors of DU use and demanding the government stop using it, but not at GOP or “support the troops” rallies. What hypocrisy.

Thank you ITT for being TRULY supportive of the troops by running this story.

I thought I was “on top of things”, but I never knew the United States was using Depleted Uranium weapons. Why don’t we just call them dirty bombs, which is exactly what they are. Not only were soldiers affected, but children were, too. This is the culture of life?

So far, this war makes it seem as though the United States:

- Encourages torture
- Disregards our own citizens’ Constitutional rights whenever it’s convenient
- Likes to spread radioactive contamination
- Cares more about oil than women’s rights
- Will destroy anyone (and his CIA-agent wife) who comes out against the war
- Doesn’t give a darn about the U.N.
- Currently has the “W"orst President EVER

This is not the country I thought I lived in. I feel like I’ve been duped my whole life.

This is not new.  The use of depleted uranium in Iraq goes back to the First Gulf War, and the toll on Iraqi children through death and deformity has been documented by humanitarian groups through the years.

This will play out just as Agent Orange did in Vietnam.  The government will conclude that there are no side effects to DU, and that the soldiers and their children are delusional.  Such is the price of being a pawn in wars of choice.

My greater concern is with the silence of the Congress.  There is not a crime committed by this administration which has been challenged or questioned or even acknowledged by the large majority of inactive men and women in Washington. 

If you are concerned about the apathy, intimidation, and/or lemming behavior of your own person in Congress, read this editorial through.  Then print it out and mail it to your personal Washington Wimp if the shoe fits.  It probably will. 

The article, from TvNewsLIES.org begins like this:

“What shameful toads you are! Yes you, our elected lawmakers.  Yes you, the folks we sent to Washington in our names.  Yes you, the most spineless, cowardly and craven Congress people in history. Yes you, the most bullied, gutless and shameful herd of legislators ever elected. And you know exactly who you are.”

To read it all
CLICK HERE

Question: Why aren’t stories like this plastered all over the mainstream media? 2nd question:Why is it that the only really positive opinions about Cindy Sheehan are posted in the “letters to the editor section of your daily newspaper?  Our beloved country has been taken over by evil nazis,and it seems that nobody cares.

For more info:
Health Physics is the radiation safety group.
http://www.hps.org/

Also, if something can “remain radioactive for billions of years” then it must not be putting out much radiation; otherwise it would decay away.

The most you have here is the chemical toxicity danger, not much traction on the radioactivity line.

‘The most you have is the chemical toxicity, not much traction on the radioactivity line’
Are you dismissing the implications of heavy metal poisoning? DU does has radioactive properties but it is also a heavy metal. Very heavy. Its particulate properties - (nanoparticles)- are also disturbing but the chemical effects are quite toxic.
The reported symptoms seem more complex than straightforward radiation poisoning. Most likely the radioactive, particulate, and chemical properties in DU exacerbate each other.
These symptoms in young, previously healthy ‘warriors’ points to exposure to several toxins, not only DU (chemical fires etc.)so it is true that DU is one of many exposures, but it is still deadly. This suggests we should be conducting post theater surveillance for symptoms over time. We may not learn everything they’ve been exposed to, but at the very least we can help them get the benefits they deserve.

Some other reports on the subject:

Seattle PI

Rolling Stone

Scott Peterson reported the following in the 1999 Middle East Journal:

“How likely, then, is DU to cause health problems? The answer depends on who you ask. Atomic scientists calculate that each alpha particle can break hundreds of thousands of molecular bonds. There is no shortage of this energy: Every gram of DU produces 12,000 alpha particles per second.”

In the same article, Ron Kathren, academic and radiation expert cited on the issue at jsong123’s http://www.hps.org tries to downplay the theoretical health risks posed by DU but is contradicted by other experts who emphasize the volume of particularized DU released in battlefield situations.

Another great article

Hello Dr. D,
Answer to both questions 1 & 2: they’re either afraid or complicitous. The mainstream networks and publications are afraid they’ll get tagged as traitors by shrill pro-Bush pundits, or they’re in agreement with the idea that criticism of the government’s policies, even fair and reasonable criticism, is unpatriotic or anti-American.

As for radioactivity v. metallic toxicity, when it comes to taking care of those who have risked their lives and health in war, it doesn’t matter. The government and the entire country is morally obligated not to shirk, not to short-change on this issue. They owe medical care to these people regardless of the health problems that arise from wartime injury or illness. By the way, I submit that the supposed debatability about the properties and risks of DU weapons is a sham; they’ve been used and studied for years. skipper7 hit the nail on the head with the Agent Orange comparison. Disgusting.

Something in me wants to say that health care provision for militars should go without saying, but of course I already know better than that.

The cost of this war will go way beyond the casualties in Iraq . They will permeate our culture for years in the same way Viet Nam did and even more so. PTSD is already surfacing. How ill our mental health system bear that burden? How about domestic violence? Medical costs for the wounded that even ten years ago may not have survived..and of course, genetic defects.
And mostly, the psyche of this country ahs been destroyed.
See you all at the demo in September!

Jsong who are you trying to fool? The background radiation levels in Baghdad today are the equivelant of having a chest x-ray every two hours. Day and night, seven days a week that is sunshine. You might also note how much radiation has been released in Iraq, “this time around” the amount corresponds to the same amount of radiation released from 40, 000 Nagasaki size atom bombs!

By the way Jong didn’t you read the article? The soldiers tested positive and the Baby is deformed. So much for your hopeful theorising.
To read the truth about this war crime see:

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=1776

“Military men are just dumb stupid animals to be used as pawns in foreign policy.” Henry Kissinger as quoted in the book “Kiss the Boys Goodbye: How the United States Betrayed Its Own POW’s in Vietnam.”

The U.S. govt. like any historical empire excites nationalism within the governed to serve their purposes, its easy for them to do, just throw out the key phrases like “Defending freedom” , “Spreading democracy”, Liberating victims” Orwell proclaimed that the English language is so suitable for propaganda, when an American hears or thinks about freedom what stirs in their mind? This is a powerful source used by the elite ruling class to recruit people to serve their interest which is the natural resources of other people’s countries. The elite do not care for the poor who fight the wars, hey over 300,000 vets are homeless in this country while yellow ribbons and flags fill the streets. Until people understand history as a struggle of classes in which the oligarchs suppress the masses then the youth will be stirred by the ruling powers to fight their deceitful wars. If the people understand that their own government is not on their side as is so obvious by the use of illegal Depleted Uranium weapons in which over 270,000 91gulf war vets are on permanent disability and over 12,000 dead and 67% deformed or diseased births then how much more clearer can this fact be? I have started a website www.DU4U.com to bring the reality of DU to schools and end this useless empires war machine.

Trained, armed, hyper-patriotic young men who know they have been tricked pose the greatest threat to tyranny.

Hypocrites. Motherfucking, evil, base hypocrites. Pardon my language, I just can’t think of any better way to describe these vipers.

Where to begin? Remember how bad Hussein was, he gassed his own people, used bio/chem weapons in the Iraq/Iran war? And we’re supposed to be so much BETTER than that? By spewing this venomous filth into populated areas?

I’m proud to be a citizen and part of this country, warts and all. But I can’t fathom anyone reading stories like this and not feeling the sting and burn of utter, abject shame.

Dr. Jawad Al-Ali head oncologist of the largest hospital in Basra reported over sixty cases of multiple cancers within one family, with some individuals having multiple cancers, all due to DU exposure. Just the small tip of a huge iceberg.  As for birth defects, they are averaging 1-2 per day, in one hospital in Iraq.  Mothers no longer ask, “Is it a boy or a girl,” but, “is it normal doctor?” We have poisoned two entire countries

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ned;=&q=leuren+moret&btnmeta;=sear rch=search=Search+the+Web

http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com/id432.html

You won’t find this material on MSM.

Thank God for the Internet.

Bests,
John
vpocv@comcast.net

Here’s an idea. Let’s everyone send this article on DU damage to our troops to Bill OReily at Fox News. If enough of us clog his in-box maybe he’ll take time to read it. It might also help some if we were to drop some GOP names…

SD Jayne

A chilling flash animation on DU by BushFlash.com: http://www.bushflash.com/pl_lo.html

This quote from another thread on ITT is so apt I had to repeat it:

“The U.S. never was bothered by Saddam’s atrocities when he was a pawn in America’s MidEast strategy, but when he took an independent course, that is when all the rhetoric about his atrocities and suppression began to surface. The U.S. took Saddam out because he was no longer serving America’s interests. The Bush administration acted out of its own selfishness, the rhetoric about freedom and democracy was just the conveneient cover story to give to the American people. “
Posted by Liberal on August 24, 2005 at 1:33 PM
http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/2291/

What is shameful is the fate of all who suffer, and who will suffer, from warfare poison. It is shameful for military authorities to willfully use these poisons anywhere on God’s green earth.  Children of the future are already paying a terrible price.

Thank you ITT for covering this story.  I watched a segment recently about recent Iraq veterans and the treatment (or lack of treatment) they receive is appalling. The media needs to be covering the atrocious effects of the war, on U.S. service veterans and Iraqis alike, more thoroughly and graphically instead of playing cheerleaders for death.

Somehow or other the “evidence” of Saddam gassing his own people has met the same standards as him having WMD.  The Pix of dead woman and children DOES NOT SHOW HOW THEY DIED.

Saddam was no where near as bad as Idi Amin and Pinochet, and Negroponte for that matter.

Bests,
John McCarthy
vpocv@comcast.net
http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com
Update link in left colum at top of home page.

Many, many people care about the horror of war and the horror perpetrated by the Bush administration.  They talk to us when we demonstrate against the war. Rage, grieve, reason, but do not despair.  Above all act!

There is no forseeable end to US policy, domestic as well as international. We’ve intervened and used depleted uranium liberally in former Yugoslavia and Iraq, and we’re now looking down our sights at Iran and Syria.

You’ll find some clues as to why Iran is our next target, here:

Killing the dollar in Iran
http://tinyurl.com/8q95q

The US is a cornered nation. The Administration is scared. Israel acts as our alarm clock, since it depends on our support for its survival. Our economy is virtually on the brink.

If we the aware and vigilant do not voice our opinions as never before, we will bear reponsible for having been accomplices to war crimes.

Countless website forums point out the crimes against peace and crimes against humanity, all established as WAR CRIMES by the US led International War Crimes Trial held in Nuremberg in 1946.  We hanged folks for the same crimes Bush is perping on the Arab Nations.  How much more can those 55 million people take before they sucker us in for the final treatment.  We have ruined their civilization in Iraq. DU has a half life of 4.5 billion years.  hooray for Bush, Cheney and the rogue bunch of Constitutional rapers.

Bests,
John
http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com
vpocv@comcast.net

Dear Gerard Matthew,
Why don’t you go down to Crawford, Texas, and stand with Cindy Sheehan--and demand answers from bush about WHY DU is being used in Iraq?  And why veteran’s babies are being born deformed?  And why vetran’s wives are coming down with mysterious ailments after their precious husbands come home from the war zone?  And WHY is Iraq being transformed into a genocidal wasteland, with a slow radiation-poisoning death being decreed for a vast number of civilians?  (As well as for our own troops??)

You have standing, and the right to demand answers, especially with your adorable daughter’s health problems.

It is appalling how the mass media ignores DU, and how few Americans understand DU, or the atrocitites that are being perpetrated in our names, with everlasting consequences…

YOU have the chance to stand up now, and be a hero by helping to end this dreadful war.

Cassandra

What is really appalling is how many lies have been spread about DU munitions.  If you want to learn more about this .. go to the seven article series by a long time investigative reporter Bob Evans of the Newport News Daily Press.

From the second article of the series .. Of Rodents and Radiation - Ch 2 - From the Nose to the Brain
http://www.dailypress.com/news/specials/dp-du2,0,4684968.story?coll=dp-special-n news

“The issue is chemical, not radiologic, risk,” says Melissa A. McDiarmid of the University of Maryland School of Medicine and the VA hospital in Baltimore. McDiarmid directs the government’s monitoring of Gulf War veterans with shrapnel in their bodies and has participated in other government-financed research.

McDiarmid says the tiny amount of black depleted uranium dust that a soldier could inhale several hundred feet away from an explosion is inconsequential. Even if particles are inhaled in that scenario, they wouldn’t constitute a big enough dose of radiation or toxic chemical to change lives, she says. Fifty years of research based on the experiences of workers in the uranium mining, milling and processing industries prove that scientists have good models to use to compute what is - and isn’t - a harmful dose of inhaled uranium, whether it’s depleted or not, she says.

McDiarmid thinks that we do know enough to reach the conclusion that inhaled depleted uranium isn’t a significant radiological danger. And she thinks that the failure to acknowledge this might be hurting ill veterans from the Persian Gulf War.

“What we have here is a witch hunt for an explanation,” she says, fed by the public’s fear of radiation and fanned by opponents of the weapon and ignorance of the actual science.

“The thing I’m worried about with everybody chasing depleted uranium is that we’re missing the boat,” she insists.

With so much attention on depleted uranium, other possible causes for the veterans’ illnesses go unexplored and the veterans aren’t helped.

Her most recent research paper about the veterans with shrapnel in their bodies also points to another risk of pursuing this line of inquiry into depleted uranium, known by scientists and others as “DU.”

For facts about DU from genuine experts not people who are cheerleaders against nuclear power and the war, go to the Health Physics Society www.hps.org and to their DU Fact Sheet at http://hps.org/documents/dufactsheet.pdf

Roger

“Dr. Doug Rokke, a health physicist at the University of Illinois who headed up a Pentagon study of depleted uranium weapons in the mid ’90s after concerns were raised during the Gulf War, concluded there was no safe way to use the weapons. Rokke says the Pentagon responded by denouncing him, after earlier commending his work.”

The article makes the above claim about Douglas Lind Rokke, Phd, Education, with regards to his qualifications to claim expertise on DU.  As a Lieutenant in the Army Reserve, Rokke was activated for Desert Storm and in that role was a member of a team which observed some sites with Iraqi tanks that had been hit with DU munitions.  Rokke claims to have led that team, but he did not.  He was not qualified.  He is not a Health Physicist.  He does have a Phd, but it is in Education and his dissertation was not on laboratory experiments or research on radiation or DU, but is titled “Perceived physics concepts needed to teach secondary technology
education as general education” and is on file in the University of Illinois library.

Rokke was subsequently employed as a civilian at the Army Radiation Laboratory at Fort McClellan, Alabama.  He was fired from that position for failure to perform.  He did not head up a study which concluded that there is no safe way to use DU munitions.

Rokke can not support the claims made on behalf of his own experience, let alone the wild claims that he has made about DU.

Roger

Dear Roger:

Here is what it has come to:  I don’t believe a single thing that you posted.  I will not bother to check your links or the articles you referred to.  I assume that they are all lies.

At this point, I automatically assume that anyone supporting the Bush administration and their policies is either a moron, a useful idiot, or a shill.  I would categorize you as somewhere between useful idiot and shill, with the proponderance of evidence toward shill.

There has been no truth forthcoming from the Bush administration or the Pentagon.  Zero.  All lies and spin.  Possibly you are bamboozled by it?  I doubt that, which is why I gravitate towards shill in my estimate of you.

This is what happens, eventually, to liars and their supporters.  Intelligent and informed people start to assume that everything they say is a lie, based on past experience.  Do you like being automatically placed in the rank of liars?  Get used to it.

By the way, no one who knows me or reads my writing would dream of calling me a liberal. Although I do get called other things, liberal isn’t one of them.

m-astera ..

Nothing like burning the book before even reading the cover.  The anti-DU movement is not anti-Bush; it has just co-opted the anti-Bush people.  I am not pro-Bush either, but I do not believe in spreading lies that are costing American lives. 

I am not used to being in the rank of liars .. I expose liars, so you get used to it.

Roger

Quote:  “I do not believe in spreading lies that are costing
American lives.”

Interesting.  Would you care to explain how posting information on uranium poisoning is costing American lives?

The Government has not been caring for vets exposed to uranium for a long time.  A Titan missle was blown on the pad in December 1975 on Johnston Atoll. Every day the levels of uranium are measured on the island. Persons who served on the island have not been included as of yet in any study or work on depleted uranium. Persons who served on Johnston Atoll need to be included in any studies and compensation.

Ditto from Rabbit, Roger.
Like I said, the troops have measured positive to high radiation, the babies are being born deformed and the background radiation levels can and have been measured.
Any theorising by you is past the point of relevance, you nincompoop. Go back to denying Agent Orange, stooges, you havn’t convinced anyone that didn’t happen yet.

The ONLY reason the US and Great Britain use DU is because of its mental hardening properties and the fact that DU is free.  Titanium will do the same thing that DU does to harden metal and strengthen its penetrating properties—but we would have to pay for titanium in making our munitions.  Australia signed off the DU wagon train a while back.  So it’s just us and the Brits!

W told the only truth he’s ever told.  There are WMD’s in Iraq and we brought them with us!

m_astera

If Roger posted the sentence “The sky is blue”, would you agree?

He is talking about DU and you are talking about presidential policies.

DU has been used by alot more presidents than just Bush. I doubt that Bush knows much about DU, it is something the military has developed when they switched from using tungsten.

Sorry I brought up the word tungsten.

When the Pentagon actively resists proper testing of troops for what are at the very least legitimate concerns, a stooge like Roger thinks it’s OK and yet he talks about supporting the troops. Why can’t you lamebrained, truth ducking American goons call a spade a spade. When you say support the troops what you really mean is support the war. You allowed those troops to attack a sovereign nation based upon proven lies. You have no doubt argued for each of the replacement lies in turn as they have been announced with the usual absolute certainty in each their turn as the previous lies unravelled. You are doing it again, which is why nobody who matters any more takes you seriously. Whether or not you join is not important. You should be shackled to the consequences of your denial when the bell tolls for the Beasts in the whitehouse. You and all those who would support any of the evil acts of an utterly insane leadership on the brink of trashing the planet for everybody.

That’s what bugs me about you Roger, when that time comes and it is fast approaching, you and all your type will scuttle away and be lost to us when it comes time for justice. Mark these people well friends, make lists of the ones you know. If only we could get them to tattoo themselves with some permanent mark. Perhaps if Bush or Condi could come up with “Freedom Tattoos” to help show all those peace loving extremists what’s what. We’d net a fair percentage of the clowns and we could keep track of them with their own security network when people rule their own destinies again.

The chemical toxicity of inhaled uranium trioxide (uranyl oxide) gas vapor fumes is much worse—about a million times worse—than the radiation from inhalation of any of the other oxides.  The armed forces sadly missed the fact that about 1/5th of uranium which burns in air produces UO3 gas vapor instead of the dusts from the other oxides which are obvious.  The UO3(g) vapor does not settle out of the atmosphere; instead, it disperses as an invisible, odorless cloud, and is absorbed into the bloodstream almost immedately when it is inhaled.  The details are in one of my NRC petitions here:

http://www.bovik.org/du/du-petition.html

If we have any hope for a solution to this problem, we must ask the following of the U.S. government:

1.  Please submit a public comment asking that the NRC take uranium’s chemical toxicity into account when setting acceptable inhalaton and ingestion limits for soluble uranium compounds.  You can do this on the web by reading the NRC rulemaking petition and following the comment instructions here:

http://ruleforum.llnl.gov/cgi-bin/rulemake?source=PRM_2026&st=petitions-a

Comments must be received by August 29, 2005.

2.  The CDC’s Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry (ATSDR) should cite the reproductive chemical toxicity
of uranium in their toxicology publications.  The teratogenicity
of uranium has been known for more than half a century, and is
well-documented, along with uranium’s developmental toxicity, in
several peer-reviewed medical and scientific publications, but
no mention of it can be found in ATSDR publications.

3.  The Army and other pyrophoric uranium munitions NRC licensees
should admit the quantity of UO3(g) vapor produced by such
weapons, from the results of their own emperical observation.

4.  The Navy’s DoD Birth and Infant Health Registry should, in
their epidemiological studies, measure the congenital
malformation incidence rate of exposed 1991 Operation Desert
Storm veterans, instead of avoiding any study of them as a class
in their recent draft Annual Reports, e.g.:
http://www.bovik.org/du/mscusn/BIHR_annual_report_1998.pdf
http://www.bovik.org/du/mscusn/BIHR_annual_report_1999.pdf
http://www.bovik.org/du/mscusn/BIHR_annual_report_2000.pdf

This is especially important because published studies of that
same epidemiological category upon which DoD BIHR scientists
have publicly commented indicate that the class has
significant and substantial increases in their birth defect
incidence rate, which is apparently increasing over time:
http://www.bovik.org/du/mscusn/BD_Infants_GWV_AR_AZ_CA_GA_HI_IA_1989-1993.pdf

5.  The Army should admit that if UO3 forms from U oxides UO2
through U3O8 by weathering, then the uranyl ions are likely to
mobilize and wash away into the water table simultaneously, and
so they should begin testing the water table in sites such as
Jefferson Proving Ground, Indiana, Vieques, Puerto Rico, and
Basrah, Iraq to see if they can find out what happened to the
missing UO3 which their chemists have been expecting.

Sincerely,
James Salsman

You all have have missinterpretaded my strategery for using delapidated uranium in our current march to freedom in Iraq.  You see, it’s part of my current energy plan, for conserving our energy, during our current energy crisis… uh… I mean fiasco.  When our troops return home from being eratiated when exposed to delapitated uranium they bring all that energy with them, and when it gets dark at night, you don’t have to use electric lights, cause your body will glow in the dark.  It also saves hospitals from having to using x-ray equipment, which uses lots of them energies I was talking about ealier.

This is a long digression from the subject of DU exposure so I will make it a separate comment.

Michaelvet changes the subject by what apparently is his personal experience at Johnston Island where two nuclear armed Thor missiles blew up on the launch pad in 1962.  The Plutonium (not Uranium) contamination was cleaned up within the past 5 years and Johnson Atoll is now a bird sanctuary. If Michael believes he has ill effects from exposure to Plutonium, he should see the VA. 

More about the Plutonium contamination of Johnson Atoll is found at
http://www.kahea.org/lcr/pdf/JohnstonHawaii5-11.pdf which is to prepare the public for a pre-cleanup meeting in Hawaii.

The Defense Threat Reduction Agency (DTRA) and its legacy organizations have been responsible for the cleanup of radioactive contamination on Johnston Atoll from two aborted missile launches in 1962. DTRA legacy organizations began cleanup of the atoll immediately to resume testing activities. Plutonium oxide and americium, a decay product of plutonium, were the contaminants of concern. Early efforts included the establishment of a fenced, 24-acre Radiological Control Area on Johnston Island for consolidating contaminated material found throughout the atoll during radiological surveys.

http://www.dtra.mil/press_resources/fact_sheets/fs_includes/ja.cfm not only contains the above but explains how the contamination has been contained and Johnson Atoll closed.

http://www.dtra.mil/about/media/historical_documents/environmental/decision.cfm gives more a more in-depth description of the accidents and remediation procedures.

http://www.vic-info.org/RegionsTop.nsf/0/1bc2b18b269be3888a256a500082dd6e?OpenDo ocument
confirms that the Atoll is now a bird sanctuary

3. Discussion: Johnston Atoll is the site of widely divergent activities by the U.S. Government. As a National Wildlife Refuge, the area is a habitat for seabirds, shorebirds. In the 1960’s, the U.S. established the site as an above ground atmospheric nuclear and missile testing range; of significance was the launch failure of two Thor missiles--one scattered plutonium on the island and nearby reef in 1962. Since that time, DTRA was responsible for the plutonium clean-up project on the Atoll and recently completed its efforts by building a landfill that reduces the levels of radiation on all areas of the island to acceptable levels. With the recent departure of all military personnel from the island, Johnston Atoll, once again, returns to its original designation as National Wildlife Refuge. It is a refuge with an isolated airfield, strong historical ties to the military, and is 579 acres larger than its original size in 1923--but a refuge nonetheless.

Roger

m_astera asked

Quote:  “I do not believe in spreading lies that are costing American lives.”

Interesting.  Would you care to explain how posting information on uranium poisoning is costing American lives?

Simple, when the information is not true and it is used to recruit suicide bombers.  If I thought that another country had deliberately spread a terrible poison on my country, I would give my life to fight that other country.  Lies spread by American anti-DU activists like Rokke spread all over the world at lightning speed.  I would be surprised if Al Jazeera and radical Islamist sites do not already have this article posted.

Roger

Roger wrote, “If I thought that another country had deliberately spread a terrible poison on my country, I would give my life to fight that other country.”

What would you do if your country did it and you couldn’t figure out whether it was accidental or deliberate?

“Roger” from “Ramjet” is either a government disinformation agent or just an ignorant rightwing antagonist, as should be evident from his unwillingness to give his identity and address.
In fact, Dr. Douglas Rokke, who holds the rank of captain, not lieutenant as stated by “Roger”, not only headed up the DU project, which included test explosions of DU weapons in the Nevada desert, and not only is described in U of Ill. literature as a “health physicist”, he received a letter of commendation from Gen, Shinseki.
On Dec. 3, 1995, On June 30, 1995, a letter of recommendation for the Army
Commendation medal and the Meritorious service medal described his title as “the depleted uranium project manager.”

His “Achievement no. 1, was: “Researched, identified, and
staffed radiological research data requirements for the live fire test.”

Achievement No. 2 was: “Participated in live fire lethality test as a radiological and battle damage assessment analysts.”

Achievement No. 3 was: “Performed research and data collection duties under hazardous conditions.”

Achievement No. 4 was: “Provided exceptional technical assistance and guidance to all team members during all test phase [sic].”

The letter continued: “Your performance of
duty reflects great credit upon yourself and the United States Army.”

“Roger” should either identify himself and lay out his evidence concretely, or he should go back under his rock.

Dave Lindorff, author of the above article
dlindorff@yahoo.com
www.thiscantbehappening.net

Addemdum,

The cowardly “Roger” would appear to be one Lt Colonel Roger Helbig, United States Air Force, whom Dr. Rokke says works at the Pentagon and has been regularly attacking him. This is, in other words, most likely an official--if hidden--effort by the Pentagon and the White House to try to keep the DU story from gaining mainstream traction. As Rokke says, “He is one more of those associated with the Pentagon who must attack in order to susatain dU use and avoid all liability for its illegal
use.

Given his position and his deception about it, I think the veracity of his trumped up charges regarding Dr. Rokke should be accorded the same credibility as the president’s claim of WMDs in Iraq: ie, it’s a bunch of crap.

Dave Lindorff
author of the above story
dlindorff@yahoo.com
www.thiscantbehappening.net

Good job dlindorff and jsalsman.  It is good to see an author stand up for his article and refute deliberate misinformation.  (I am checking our your site.)
How can we let the truth be hijacked by gov’t hacks afraid of “suicide bombers”?  Like telling the truth would encourage murder?  Good God!  Maybe if the military would not engage in so much deception and poison the world would see less revenge.

Ah, Yes, Tungsten.  Sort of expensive.  And it is/was an alternative to DU, but DU is Free and while we use it to harden munitions and make airplane wings stronger it saves us from having to dispose of it.

During WWII, the good folks at the Manhatten Project wrote that DU was classified as an area deniability weapon and could be used as a backup if the atomic bomb failed to function as designed.  THE US GOVERNMENT KNEW IN 1943 THAT DU WAS A WEAPON OF MASS DESTRUCTION.

Any one who does not think so deserves a tour of Iraq, breathe the wonderful air, drink the water, eat the plants.....then come back to the States and provide us with offspring that have no deformities.

http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com/id245.html

Have a nice day!

Bests,
John McCarthy
http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com
vpocv@comcast.net

DU is a backup for the atomic bomb? How would that work; if the atomic bomb did not explode then we would drop DU on the enemy and it would do what?

jsong, try any of this on for size and get back to me with your opine.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ned;=&q=leuren+moret&btnmeta;=search& =search=Search+the+Web

Bests,
John McCarthy
http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com
vpocv@comcast.net

The following post is MAJOR (NOT LIEUTENANT!) Dr. Doug Rokke’s response to the disinformation being spread by the Pentagon about him courtesy of the above “Roger” of “Ramjet”.

Depleted Uranium Situation Requires Action
By President Bush and Prime Minister Blair

posted by Dr. Doug Rokke, Ph.D.
August 27, 2005

David Lindorff has writen a very good article on DU.  This article resulted
in renewed personal attacks against me by LTC Roger Helbig, USAF, who has been
spearhesding efforts to sustain DU use and ensure DOD officials are not help
responsible for using weapons of mass destruction - dirty bombs against
civilian polulations and miltary targets.  The issue here is whether or not DOD
officials will provide mandated medical care for DU casualties and clean up
environmental contamination. Why is LTC Helbig refusing to help me / us ensure that
DOD officials comply with regulatory requirements? Could it be that he
believes that DOD officials are exempt from compliance with their own regulations?
I am tired of the personal attacks because I have attempted for years
to ensure that DOD and now British, and NATO officials provide medical care
to all DU casualties and that they clean up all contamination where they have
manufactured, tested, or used DU munitions. 

Specifically section 2-4 of United States Army Regulation-AR 700-48 dated
September 16, 2002 requires that:
(1) “Military personnel “identify, segregate, isolate, secure, and label all
RCE” (radiologically contaminated equipment).
(2) “Procedures to minimize the spread of radioactivity will be implemented
as soon as possible.”
(3) “Radioactive material and waste will not be locally disposed of through
burial, submersion, incineration, destruction in place, or abandonment” and
(4) “All equipment, to include captured or combat RCE, will be surveyed,
packaged, retrograded, decontaminated and released IAW Technical Bulletin
9-1300-278, DA PAM 700-48” (Note: Maximum exposure limits are specified in Appendix F).

The past and current use of uranium weapons, the release of radioactive
components in destroyed U.S. and foreign military equipment, and releases of
industrial, medical, research facility radioactive materials have resulted in
unacceptable exposures.
The extent of adverse health and
environmental effects of uranium weapons
contamination is not limited to combat zones but includes facilities and
sites where uranium weapons were manufactured or tested including Vieques, Puerto
Rico, Colonie, New York, and Jefferson Proving Grounds, Indiana. Therefore
medical care must be provided by the United States Department of Defense
officials to all individuals affected by the manufacturing, testing, and/or use of
uranium munitions.

I am amazed that fourteen years after was asked to clean
up the initial DU mess from Gulf War 1 and almost ten years since I finished
the depleted uranium project that United States Department of Defense officials
and mauy others still attempt to justify uranium munitions use while ignoring
mandatory requirements. 

Finally continued compliance with the infamous March 1991 Los Alamos Memorandum
(http://www.tv.cbc.ca/national/pgminfo/du/doc1.html) that was issued to ensure
continued use of uranium munitions can not be justified. 

In conclusion: the President of the United States- George W. Bush and
The Prime Minister of Great Britain-Tony Blair must acknowledge and accept
responsibility for willful use of illegal uranium munitions- their own
“dirty bombs"- resulting in adverse health and environmental effects. 

References-

http://www.traprockpeace.org/twomemos.html

http://www.traprockpeace.org/rokke_du_3_ques.html

http://www.traprockpeace.org/du_dtic_wakayama_Aug2002.html

John McCarthy

Based on your answer to my question, I now understand the situation, i.e. you don’t know how DU could be used as a backup for the atomic bomb.

Yoh! 
Ramjet henceforth A.K.A. “Willful Ignorance”

Please return to top of Thread.
And review.
Then try and Sell your crap to “Gerard Matthew”

Then return your head into the bucket of sand

jsong,
you took 13 minutes to peruse ALL the DU articles on ALL the pages.....you are one fast reader and must be applying as a disinformation specialist.

You are out of your league, son.

Not so Bests,
John McCarthy

I don’t see any reason to “peruse ALL the DU articles on ALL the pages”, as you seem to want me to.

You stated that DU could be used as a backup for an atomic weapon, and I asked you how that would work.

Obviously you don’t know what you are talking about.

You could tell me how DU can be used as a backup to an atomic weapon, if you know. If you don’t know don’t worry, and don’t call me names.

Jsong,

As Gilda Radner would say: “Never mind”.

Intercourse; the art of communicating.....lost on some poor souls who don’t want to be confused with the facts as their minds are already made up.  Oh, well....bye bye

Is it a needless tragedy that innocent children are suffering the effects of depleted uranium? Obviously that question is a no-brainer...but I wonder why there doesn’t seem to be very much concern for the innocent Iraqi or Afghani children who are not just ‘exposed’ to depleted uranium...they have to live with it forever...along with their children for thousands of generations. So who is really the war criminal that is currently using weapons of mass destruction?

brianetilley,

This page of my site answers part of your question.

http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com/id245.html

Bests,
John McCarthy
http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com
vpocv@comcast.net

Jsong:

Do you understand what a “dirty bomb” is?

That is how uranium/plutonium contamination can be used for “area deniability” and long term damage.  At the time of the Manhattan project, they did not really know if atomic weapons would explode, but they knew that the bomb would at least blow up (because of the TNT charge) and scatter radioactive particles over a wide area.

Apologies to John McCarthy, I just couldn’t stand it. : )

Interestingly, there is a school of thought that claims atomic bombs DO NOT work, that the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were actually just enormous TNT firebombs that were laced with radioactives.  I won’t argue pro or con on that, but it is certainly an interesting idea, and would explain why we haven’t had any use of nuclear bombs since, although the military has certainly used every other damn weapon they’ve ever come up with.

m_astera,

Cudos!

As a point of interest, the 20,000 feet of color film taken in Nagasaki and Hiroshima was classified Top Secret from 1945 until sometime in the ninties, when it was declassified and placed in a filing cabinet per directions of the Atomic Energy Commission.  Only 16 minutes of the original film were aired earlier this month on cable networks Sundance Channel in a one hour program.  The rest remain “to horrible” for the American public to view, because they might object to newer weapons being tested in the fifties and sixties that were thousands of times more powerful.

Interesting note:  The Hiroshima bomb, 12-15 kilo ton (they are not sure, just as they don’t know why the proposed 8 megton bomb detonated in the Pacific in the early fifities went off at 13 megaton with disastrous results) was detonated by a barometric device 5000 feet above the city and called a ‘clean’ bomb because it did not place radiated earth into the atmosphere.....nasty business, eh?

Thanks!

Bests,
John McCarthy
http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com
vpocv@comcast.net

Do you understand what a “dirty bomb” is?

A dirty bomb combines a conventional explosive, such as dynamite, with radioactive material.

From: http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/fact-sheets/dirty-bombs.html

I’m no scientist, certainly, but I have read several articles about DU that seem pretty authoritative and conclusive.  Basically, DU is not a significant danger chemically (heavy metal poisoning) and even less radioactively. 

It makes a lot of sense for scare mongers to latch on to the uranium and ignore depleted.  Uranium = highly radioactive in most people’s minds.  Similarly, hysterics over irradiated foods are fueled by the notion that they are being somehow “radioactivated”, or turned into some kind of dangerous mutation.

Not to say that we shouldn’t always be on the lookout for health threats, but consider the fact that DU enables our military to be better protected by superior armor plating, and better armed with more effective weapons than their opponents.  This surely saves hundeds of lives and must be weighed against any possible health threats from DU.

Genetically modified foods, chemical fertilizers and effective pesticides enable us to feed millions of people that otherwise would starve.

DDT was banned amidst vastly overblown reports of toxicity.  Now millions die of malaria that might have otherwise lived.

Don’t get me wrong.  I’m as concerned with genuine health risks as the next person.  But I’m also concerned when hysterical unfounded pseudo-science ends up generating the precise opposite of it’s stated intent.  Costing, instead of saving lives.

Hello Natalie,

I am no scientist either.  But Leuren Moret is.

Google her name please.
http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com/id155.html

Bests,
John McCarthy
http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com/

Yoh!  Natalie

Please be INFORMED!  Do just a little honest research outside the boundaries of your own political bias and preconceptions.

http://omega.twoday.net/stories/521143

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/July2004/Moret0721.htm

Depleted Uranium is 70% as radioactive as the purified variety.

It is nasty deadly stuff.
When will you people cease being “Willfully Ignorant” and deal with the FACTS.

Or go make yourself a DU sandwich.

Well, Natalie, I’m sorry that others here have been rude to you, but before you make up your mind about DU, please read this article from the U.S. Armed Forces Radiobiology Institute published in the peer-reviewed medical literature:

A.C. Miller, et al., “Depleted uranium-catalyzed oxidative DNA damage: absence of significant alpha particle decay,” Journal of Inorganic Biochemistry, vol. 91 (2002), pp. 246–252:
http://www.bovik.org/du/Miller-DNA-damage.pdf

In particular, please not this statement in the abstract:  “we demonstrate that DU can generate oxidative DNA damage and can also catalyze reactions that induce hydroxyl radicals in the absence of significant alpha particle decay. Experiments were conducted under conditions in which chemical generation of hydroxyl radicals was calculated to exceed the radiolytic generation by 10^6-fold (1,000,000-fold.)”

What that means is that the oxidative damage, including damage to DNA, from depleted uranium in vitro is literally one million times worse than its damage resulting from its radioactivity.

Please see my NRC petition concerning pyrophoric uranium munitions for more information:
http://www.bovik.org/du/du-petition.html

Thank you.

To All of the “Willfully Ignorant”

Please stop refusing to perceive the FACTS and make ridiculous attempts to rationalize and justify atrocity.  It looks bad, and damages your case.

America’s assent to such atrocity has made us all complicit in that atrocity.
And that is a hard FACT for anybody to face.

Such FACTS must be faced, courageously.
Such FACTS must be sublimated and included within one’s belief system.
To refuse FACTS is foolish, and intellectual dishonest
To refuse to face a FACT is ultimately Self Defeating.

You <( FOOL )> yourself! 

Better to face the FACTS and DEAL with them, and in the case of D.U., the sooner better than later.

It is said that when a “true believer” is presented with FACTS that He/She finds disturbing of distasteful, they proceed to ignores those FACTS and begin to pray a little harder.

Amen Sister Amen.

Yoh “johnmccarthy”
I just checked out your site.  Kudos’, and a big Thank You!

Why, Thank you Eadora!

“It is dangerous to be right when your government is wrong”.  Voltaire

“One can ignore the facts but one cannot change the facts.” Author Unknown

Bests,
John McCarthy
http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com
vpocv@comcast.net

vpocv@hotmail.com --google this addy for 500 plus pages!

Roger? OH, Roger where have you gone? Well done Dlindorf for calling that one. It seems you were right about Col Ramjet, he was too stupid to realise that he was not being taken seriously but naming the prick must have come as a shock for him.

Excuse me Natalie if Rabbit is wrong here but the timing of your appearance and something about the tone suggests a possible alter ego of the Roger Ramjet. I can just picture this Helbig dressing up in a skirt while he plays the Natalie role, not that it is entirely necessary, but he enjoys it more that way. We’ll soon see, because the truth and science about all this is not hard to understand actually so don’t let anyone claim otherwise. Rabbit has quite good Physics and Chemistry background and is an experienced pyrotechnic chemist in particular.

m-astera interesting thought, do you have any source for the Atom bomb doubts?.

jsong shouldn’t be fed. Whatever he is, he is not someone who knows or wants to know anything. Even Roger had more going for him, at least he made an effort to be convincing. What these disinformation types fail to understand is how the Internet is complete anathema to their efforts. Never before was so much effort applied for so little result, it must really be bugging them. I wish they could comprehend how deep the contempt we feel when we recognise their cowardice and stupidity.

Now Natalie, if you are not just The Ramjet Colonel in a dress, read the links given above and don’t be afraid of being bamboozled. Liars always try to bamboozle people when it comes to science. As a rule of thumb, if the simple scientific explanation sounds too complicated to understand for the layman then either the person explaning doesn’t understand it himself or the person is deliberately trying to bamboozle you because he’s lying.

Rabbit has Occupational Health and Safety qualifications as well and the dangers of Radioactivity are well documented. Not only must people wear special protective clothing when hadling DU they should be monitored for excessive exposure on a daily basis. If DU was safe to be blown/burnt into powder and gas why is depleted uranium such a serious waste disposal problem? Do any of you naysayers want to explain why it would otherwise be encased in lead and concrete the either stored or buried somewhere to be left undisturbed for, well basically forever.? Any ideas? Heh, why don’t we use it to make bridges? or tools? if it is as safe as you’d like to think, why is it that no community anywhere wants any dumped near them and for that matter most countries want someone else to take it off their hands. They’ll pay whatever it costs to get rid of the stuff.

For chrissakes! This banter is utterly ridiculous. Were talking about depleted URANIUM, people!! How, the hell, can ANYONE even think that this crap could be “harmless?” The DDT comparison was absolutely hee-larious, it’s like apples and oranges! One comes from nuclear fuel processing, the other… well, never mind. We’re spraying this radioactive, deadly crap like it’s mosquito repellent.

Tell you what: I’ll be happy to play Devil’s advocate and just assume this stuff is as toxic as Play-doh. But, let’s have the Pentagon actually, you know - TEST IT to prove it once and for all.

Think there’s a reason they’ve been loathe to do any “field tests?” Gee, I wonder…

Serve FREE D.U. sandwiches in the Pentagon Cafaterias.  See how many takers you get.

“Radiation in Iraq Equals 250,000 Nagasaki Bombs”

http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Mar04/Nichols0327.htm

INSANITY SEEMS TO BE ON A ROLL WITHIN THE DEFENCE DEPT.

“Bob Nichols is a contributing writer for LiberalSlant, Democratic Underground, OnlineJournal, AmericaHeldHostage, and other online dot com publications.”

Give me a break.  I’m trying to keep an open mind on this DU stuff, but can we please exclude OBVIOUSLY biased emotional sources like this?

And then somebody doesn’t even understand that the reference to DDT is meant to illustrate how scare-science can trump real science, not to compare its radiation footprint.

I could refer you to reams of evidence about a serious relationship developing between Hussein and bin Laden.  I might as well be claiming the moon is made of cheese.

But you expect me to take as gospel all these claims like “250,000 Nagasaki bombs? 

There’s plenty of testing that’s been done, and it’s not presented alongside doctored pictures of mutated babies and skull and cross-bones watermarks.

****************

Final statement and recommendations: 

Having comprehensively reviewed and cross-examined most of the specialized scientific literature, in particular the medical literature, judged reliable and trustworthy,

Having in mind the results provided by the medical observation over decades of workers of the uranium industry as well as by the experiments with animals,

Taking into account the results of the recent investigations in Iraq and in the Balkans of the effects on man and on the environment following the use of DU, the report concludes that the use of DU-ammunition in Iraq and the Balkans neither has led to a serious widespread contamination of the environment nor represents an acute or appreciable long-term hazard for man’s health.

http://www.europarl.eu.int/stoa/publi/pdf/stoa100_en.pdf

**************

Summary

The current sound medical-scientific evidence provides no evidence to show that a person having external or internal exposure to depleted uranium at any realistic level will develop an illness caused by depleted uranium.

The estimates of depleted uranium intake, chemical dose, and radiation dose calculated by the US DoD (OSAGWI, 2000) for Level II and III participants indicate those veterans experienced air concentrations well below the short-term exposure limits. These estimates are far below any relevant US Federal or industrial guideline for chemical or radiation exposure (OSAGWI, 2000). The toxicology of uranium has been examined in Section Five and the Expert Committee has concluded that harmful medical effects from depleted uranium exposure for Level II or III personnel are not supported by the current sound medical-scientific evidence. 

Recent risk assessments by the Royal Society show that while studies of large cohorts of veterans are vitally important to explore and understand the experiences and exposures which may effect the health status of veterans, in the case of exposure to depleted uranium most would have had only very low or negligible exposure.  Even during the Gulf War only a very small fraction of the troops present would have received measurable exposure to depleted uranium and based on our current knowledge of uranium toxicity the risk is below measurable levels.  Even for their worst case estimates the risk was still so low that no observable increase in lung cancer (or other cancer) mortality would be seen in a cohort of 10,000 veterans followed for 50 years (Royal Society, 2001).

http://www.aph.gov.au/Senate/committee/fadt_ctte/estimates/add_0203/def/ans-dva- -q34-att-feb03.doc

(two of many.....4000 word limit you know)

Natalie,

I admire your guts, taking on these scientific illiterate bullies .. look forward to direct communication.  I can not keep up with the fallout that my initial comments generated and have been off the computer most of the day. 

Roger

The Bob Nichols articles make such outlandish claims, as has Leuren Moret in her testimony in the Kangaroo Court in Japan which according to the International Court in the Hague had no connection or jurisdiction.

Nichols called Moret an emminent scientist.  I expected to find someone with the credentials of a modern Madame Curie and instead found that Moret according to her bio

earned her B.S. in Geology at U.C. Davis in 1968, (my B.A. in Geological Sciences from SUNY at Buffalo was in 1969) and her M.A.
in Near Eastern Studies from U.C. Berkeley in 1978.  She has completed all but her dissertation for a PhD. in the Geosciences at U.C. Davis

(Actually, Moret dropped out of the UC Davis Geology Phd program .. the Department declined to say nothing more than that she is no longer a candidate for the degree)

Moret then worked at Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory and Lawrence Livermore Laboratory.  What she does not say is what she did there .. she gives the impression that she was a “scientist” and more than likely she actually was a lab tech or even some type of administrative assistant.  The fact that her Masters is not in a scientific discipline tends one to think that Moret was not a “scientist”

What I find frightening is that this government has done this horrible, thing to our own solders. I heard about this on the radio a few years ago and did not believe! I belieeve now and lets get it to the media. There is so much that we have to speak out for! People tell the world the truth about this government!I heard a couple of years ago about the buletts that had uraniun in the tips. This is our government hurting our Children! This is our government hurting people!

NOMA is very angry, sorry for spelling errors. The radioactive properties in the tips of bullets is wrong. The media needs to look into this.

What really is frightening is that the anti-depleted uranium activists like Leuren Moret and Doug Rokke have done their best to scare the daylights out of you.  Depleted uranium is not benign, but it also has caused no birth defects and has not created clouds swirling around the earth nor is the radiation level in Baghdad such that it is like taking a chest X-ray every two hours.  Unfortunately, you need to do a little research beyond the typical far out sources and learn the facts.  I provided references and the next poster, an apparently committed activist said she would not read them.  The references were not government sources but included a respected investigative reporter who made an effort to learn what DU was and was not and the Health Physics Society.

I do have other things to do and responding to dozens of like claims of horror by Rabbitvoz (who does not have the courage to sign his real name yet has been kind enough to provide you mine), m_astera, etc. is not one of them.  Read the Bob Evans’s articles .. learn the facts - he is a reporter, not an activist with an axe to grind.

http://www.dailypress.com/news/specials/dp-du2,0,4684968.sto ory?coll=dp-special-news

http://hps.org/publicinformation/radterms/

Know what you are talking about, a lengthy list of radiation terms and their definitions is located here .. there also is a link to a number of fact sheets, including one on radiation and pregnancy.

http://hps.org/publicinformation/ate/cat57.html

List of Ask the Expert Questions and Replies pertaining to Uranium at the Health Physics Society website .. a good place to learn from the experts, not the activists.

Answer to Question #626 Submitted to “Ask the Experts”
Category: Uranium

The following question was answered by an expert in the appropriate field:

Q: I intend to travel shortly to Yugoslavia to visit my parents who live outside a city that was bombed by NATO. In view of the latest scare about depleted uranium munitions that NATO used in the area I intend to bring them a portable Geiger counter so that they can check the area around their house and food that they buy on the market. Would you advise such a measure and what should they do if they register radiation higher than usual?

A: Your parents are very fortunate to have a son/daughter who is so genuinely concerned about their welfare and so thoughtful. However, both you and your parents should rest assured that they are at no risk from the depleted uranium that was used in Kosovo. There are many reasons why this is so, but the main one is that most of the depleted uranium stays very close to where the munition detonated.

If present in large enough quantities, uranium contamination of surfaces can be detected with a Geiger counter. But quantities large enough to detect would only be present on the battlefield and in the immediate area of where the munition was detonated. Since there is little or no likelihood that you would find any depleted uranium away from the actual battle site, and certainly not where your parents live, I would not recommend purchasing a Geiger counter. (Instead, as a father myself, permit me to suggest that you may wish to use the money you would have spent on a Geiger counter to purchase a very special gift for your parents.)

Some additional information about uranium may be of interest to you and you may wish to pass it on to your parents. Uranium is naturally present in small quantities in our environment, and all of us have a small amount of uranium in our bodies. Although depleted uranium is weakly radioactive, it is also a heavy metal, and chemical toxicity and not radioactivity is the primary health concern. Even its chemical toxicity is low, being approximately the same as the chemical toxicity of lead. Only a small fraction of the uranium that is swallowed—perhaps as much as five percent but more like one or two percent—is absorbed via the digestive tract. But there is no risk to your parents from the munitions used in Kosovo.

Also note that correctly interpreting Geiger counter readings requires specialized knowledge and skill. All Geiger counters will give readings from the naturally occurring background radiations, and these readings have quite a bit of normal variability. One must thus be able to separate out the large background radiation that results from cosmic rays, natural radioactivity in the soil, buildings, certain foods, etc., from any additional contamination. The normally fluctuating background radiation is often misinterpreted as being caused by radioactive contamination by inexperienced persons.

Enjoy your trip to Yugoslavia and your visit with your parents. None of you has any reason to be concerned about hazards from depleted uranium.

Ron L. Kathren, CHP

What is a CHP - A CHP is a Certified Health Physicist, something that Doug Rokke, Leuren Moret or Bob Nichols are not! 

To become a CHP, American Board of Health Physics requires:

General Requirements for Certification

Academics. Must possess at least a bachelor’s degree from an accredited college or university in physical science, engineering, mathematics, or in a biological science with a minor in physical science, engineering, or mathematics.

Experience. An applicant must have at least six years of responsible professional experience in health physics. At least three years of the experience must have been in applied health physics. The six years of professional experience, which must be documented by an applicant for Part II of the exam, must be experience that demonstrates that the candidate has been required to exercise judgment in one, or more, of the following:
establishment and/or evaluation of a radiation protection program
design and/or the evaluation of the design of the radiation protection aspects of a facility
design and implementation of a radiation protection training course or program
development of an experimental and/or measurement program designed to answer questions related to radiation protection
evaluation of measurement data
analysis and solution of radiation protection problems
preparation, interpretation and implementation of recommendations and regulations.

At the discretion of the Board, advanced degrees in health physics or a closely related area of study may be substituted for a maximum of two years of the required experience. master’s degree one year, a doctoral degree may be substituted for two years of the required experience. Technician-level experience will in no case be acceptable as meeting the experience requirements.

References. Reference statements are required from the applicant’s supervisor and, if applying for Part II, from at least two other individuals who are professionally qualified to evaluate the applicant’s ability in health physics. It is required that at least one reference be from a health physicist already certified by the ABHP.
Written Report. Each applicant for Part II of the examination shall submit with the Application for Certification a document written by the applicant that reflects a professional health physics effort. This “effort” may be a substantive facility evaluation, a protection guidance document, a major monitoring program, or some other complex or comprehensive effort. The criteria for ABHP acceptance of this report are that it (1) be on a topic for which the ABHP tests and certifies expertise, (2) contain elements of professional judgment or application of non-regulatory protection guidance, and (3) be written solely or principally by the candidate. The Board, after examination of the application materials, may request additional such reports. All reports will be treated as confidential material. All reports submitted in fulfillment of this requirement shall be reviewed by an ABHP member. Third-party review of written reports is not acceptable.
Examination. The written examination has two parts: Part I, which can be taken early in one’s career, determines the competence of the applicant in fundamental aspects of health physics, and Part II determines his/her competence in applied health physics topics. Either part of the written examination must be taken within two years of notification of eligibility, or a new application must be submitted. After passing Part I, the applicant must pass Part II within a period of seven years, or retake both parts.

Anyone who meets the education and experience requirements and is practicing health physics in a competent and ethical manner is strongly urged to apply to the Board for admission to the written examination.

For all of you “experts” commenting on the horrors of DU who are CHPs, if you meet the requirements, please, do prepare for and take the test.  It is quite rigorous.

I note in one of the earlier responses to my posting which is documentable in a 1990 memo from Colonel Day to Captains Armstrong, Brannon and Carter, that Lieutenant Rokke is emphasizing that he is a Major ..

Lieutenant Rokke was the Army Reservist activated for service in Desert Storm, subsequent to that time, Lieutenant Rokke was apparently promoted to Captain and Major in the United States Army Reserve.  Douglas Lind Rokke is not a retired Regular Army office in the grade of major, which is what Dr Rokke (who also never emphasizes that his post-Desert Storm doctorate in Education has absolutely nothing to do with Health Physics or Depleted Uranium)implies when he uses his military rank (I presume he has completed 20 years Active/Reserve service and has qualified for “gray area retirement” as an Army Reservist in the grade of Major)

The rest of the posting is a regulation that Rokke rants about not being followed .. he has been told to specifically identify by paragraph what provisions are not being followed and request an investigation by the Department of Defense Inspector General.  That, however, is not conducive to further ranting or rallying his anti-DU supporters and is bad theatre, which is what Rokke’s real strength is, acting!

Rokke seems to be the one who has chosen to use my actual name .. he has forgotten that I am not in the USAF, but like him am a retired reservist.  Unlike him, I get absolutely nothing but heartache and being spat on by the anti-DU movement for opposing the lies that he has spread.  He on the other hand gets to travel the world at the expense of the anti-DU movement and spout his lies.  His latest lies pertain to his own safety, he asserts that he has been the target of a “hit squad” and about the attack on the Pentagon on September 11th.  I guess the anti-DU crowd was not large enough of an audience and he needed to add the so-called 9/11 Truth Movement to his followers.  I am surprised that Dave Lindorff has gotten taken in by Rokke as Dave has written some pretty good work in the past and is not just into the anti-DU movement as is Bob Nichols or into conspiracies in general as is Greg Syzmanski, two of Rokke’s other mouthpieces.  I intend to find everything I possibly can about Rokke, Moret and Nichols.  They have slandered me to the world and I will not take that.

Answer to Question #746 Submitted to “Ask the Experts”
Category: Uranium

Q: How are bullets made by depleted uranium, and what reactions do they cause when they enter into contact with the ground and with humans?

A: Because of its very high density—nearly twice that of lead—and certain other properties, depleted uranium is used in certain kinds of munitions because of its ability to penetrate heavily armored vehicles such as tanks and armored personnel carriers. Depleted uranium (DU) is not used in small cartridges or bullets for rifles or machines guns but alloyed DU is used in the 25, 105, and 120 millimeter (mm) kinetic energy cartridges used primarily as antitank munitions. DU is also a component in some tank armor and sometimes used as a catalyst for land mine systems.

Since depleted uranium is weakly radioactive, the public has been concerned about the possiblility of adverse health effects from DU. DU is a heavy metal, and like all heavy metals such as mercury and lead, is toxic. However, except in certain very unusual situations, it is the chemical toxicity and not the radioactivity that is of concern. And, from a chemical toxicity standpoint, uranium is on the same order of toxicity as lead. Largely from work with animals along with a few instances in which humans inhaled very large amounts of uranium, the chemical toxicity of uranium is known to produce minor effects on the kidney, which in humans who have suffered large acute exposures have been transitory and wholly reversible. Because depleted and natural uranium are only weakly radioactive, radiological effects from ingested or inhaled uranium have not been detected in humans.

Human experience with uranium has spanned more than 200 years. In the early part of the twentieth century, uranium was used therapeutically as a treatment for diabetes, and persons so treated were administered relatively large amounts of uranium by mouth. Tens of thousands of persons have worked in the uranium industry over the past several decades, and have been followed up and studied extensively as have populations in Canada and elsewhere who have high levels of uranium in their drinking water. Results of these studies have not revealed any ill health in these populations that is attributable to the intake of uranium. This not surprising as the risk from the radiation dose from uranium is far overshadowed by its potential chemical toxicity, and intakes of uranium of sufficient magnitude to produce chemotoxic effects are unlikely in and of themselves. Any such effects from ingestion or inhalation of uranium would likely manifest themselves first in the form of minor effects associated with the kidneys.

That military personnel and others who may have had contact with depleted uranium from munitions are suffering from various illnesses is not in dispute. That their illnesses are attributable to their exposure to uranium is very, very unlikely.

Dr Cathren’s reply cont in next comment ..

Apologists like Ramjet will get no sympathy from me. Your political leanings are blatantly obvious.

“I intend to find everything I possibly can about Rokke, Moret and Nichols.  They have slandered me to the world and I will not take that. “

Aw, tough shit.

Ask the Experts .. How are bullets made from depleted uranium (continued from previous comment which was cut short by 4000 character limit)

Health physicists are deeply concerned with the public health and welfare, and as experts in radiation and its effects on people and the environment, are quite aware that something other than exposure to uranium is the cause of the illnesses suffered by those who have had contact with depleted uranium from munitions. A truly enormous body of scientific data shows that it is virtually impossible for uranium to be the cause of their illnesses. Despite this body of scientific data to the contrary, misguided or unknowing people continue to allege that the depleted uranium, and specifically the radioactivity associated with the depleted uranium is the cause of these illness. This is indeed unfortunate, for health physicists and other scientists and physicians already know that depleted uranium is not the cause of these illnesses and thus any investigations into the cause of these illnesses should focus on other possible causes. If we are to offer any measure of relief or solace to these suffering people, and to gain some important additional knowledge of the cause of their illness, we should not waste our valuable and limited energies, resources and time attempting to point the finger at depleted uranium as the culprit, when it is already known that uranium is almost certainly not the cause of the problem.

With respect to reactions with the soil, in time depleted uranium will likely leach into the soil and become mixed with it. It will for all practical purposes be chemically indistinguishable from the natural uranium that is already present in the soil all over the earth. One could create all kinds of scenarios, but probably the best way to think about DU in the soil is to compare it with lead. Because lead and uranium are so similar from a toxicological standpoint, the concerns are about the same.

Ronald L. Kathren, CHP
Professor Emeritus
Washington State University

Answer to Question #4549 Submitted to “Ask the Experts”
Category: Uranium

The following question was answered by an expert in the appropriate field:

Q: I am going to protest military training in Australia where US and Australian troops will be using depleted uranium ammunition. I’ve heard the dust can become airborne for 10s of kilometres. Is there a danger? Do I need to buy a respirator? Do you know of an affordable respirator that will effectively filter the dust?

A: There should be no danger to you from airborne depleted uranium, and it is therefore unnecessary for you to purchase or to wear a respirator. You may wish to learn more about the potential hazards of depleted uranium by consulting the Health Physics Society depleted uranium fact sheet. This brief fact sheet will also refer you to other Web sites by reputable organizations, such as the United Nations, which provide in-depth information about depleted uranium and its potential hazards.

Please note that while it is true that airborne dust can be transported many kilometers, only a miniscule fraction of dust released to air at or near the surface of the earth would travel long distances, a fact that is supported by a very large body of both theoretical and empirical studies. Most of the material would fall to earth very close to the point of release and would constitute no hazard to nearby personnel, let alone those at kilometer distances. For uranium-bearing dusts to constitute a meaningful inhalation hazard, the quantity inhaled would have to be relatively large, and the particle sizes would have to be in the so-called respirable range, i.e., on the order of 1 micrometer or so in diameter.

Ronald L. Kathren
Professor Emeritus of Pharmaceutical Sciences
Washington State University at Tri-Cities

Answer posted on July 8, 2005.

This is a great discussion.  I see a lot of anger.  Good!

Many have posted good websites and references, but I don’t see Dr. Helen Caldicott —very layperson-friendly:

HelenCaldicott.com

And her organization:

NuclearPolicy.org (NucUlear will get you the you-know-where)

Nat, everyone is tough on you.  Well, good.  Educate yourself.  It is definitely dangerous to be ill/un/disinformed in this age (nuclear) and if you read Dr. Caldicott’s latest book, it will make you realize how dangerous ‘Depleted’ uranium really is.  The term was likely used to ‘tame’ it so that we will accept such unacceptable things as the use of radiation-laden wastes (oh, WASHED up, of course) in our milk jugs and other consumer products.  That’s right.  Look it up for yourself, don’t take my word for it. 
What a horrible legacy we’re leaving in the cradle of civilization.

Ammonia D .. just exactly what can you determine about my political leanings .. I just am a porcupine .. I bristle.  Far as politics, I voted for George McGovern through John Kerry, not for Reagan, Bush either one, nor Nixon!  So much for your crystal ball, now read some factual information or admit that you are an ignoramus.

BTW, Ramjet, while I appreciate the article talking about ‘dust’ and such, I seem to recall, correctly I hope, that Dr. Caldicott’s book speaks of DU missles that are designed to crack tanks and armored vehicles —DU is dense, you see.  These explode/burn, of course, on impact and there is vaporization (NOT dust-borne here) and DU sinks deep into the lungs in this way.

This from memory, but, again, read her works, especially the latest book.  She goes into all the new and pertinent uses, not JUST the neglected/idle devises (’old’ isn’t correct, is it?)

Someone has just told a health physicist to educate themselves by reading Caldicotts book’s because her writings are “layperson friendly”.

Th Health Physics Society needs to do a better job of informing the public about their work.

The 2005 Sandia report describes what happens.  Vapors are not the issue.  Dust is and the dust remains close to the impact point because of its high specific gravity.  DU projectiles do not in themselves explode .. they cause fuel/munitions within the struck tank to explode.  They do burn on impact and this causes the self-sharpening which makes them an extremely effective tank killer.  Read the 208 page Sandia report.  Your tax dollars paid for it; you might as well learn something from it.  Dr Caldicott is neither a Health Physicist nor a Geologist and is not really an “expert” on what happens when a DU munition hits an armored target.  The Sandia report is based on actual tested impacts and careful extensive measurement.  It is available at

http://www.sandia.gov/news-center/news-releases/2005/def-nonprolif-sec/depleted- -uranium.html

NOW HERE IS THE LIE EXPOSED IN ITS BRAZEN DETAIL!

Read this story from BBC where in lies this quote:  Pun intended!

US REJECTST IRAQ CLEANUP

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2946715.stm

Quote from story:
A Pentagon spokesman, Lieutenant-Colonel David Lapan, told BBC News Online: “Since then there’ve been a number of studies - by the UK’s Royal Society and the World Health Organisation, for example - into the health risks of DU, or the lack of them.
“It’s fair to say the 1990 study has been overtaken by them. One thing we’ve found in these various studies is that there are no long-term effects from DU.
“And given that, I don’t believe we have any plans for a DU clean-up in Iraq.”
---------

Now read from :
SCIENTISTS REJ3ECT LINE ON DEPLETED URANIUM

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/04/17/1050172706047.html

Hundreds of tonnes of depleted uranium used by Britain and the US in Iraq should be removed to protect the civilian population, the Royal Society - Britain’s premier scientific institution - says, contradicting Pentagon claims it is not necessary.
The society’s statement fuels the controversy over the use of depleted uranium, which is an effective tank destroyer and bunker-buster but is believed by many scientists to cause cancers and other severe illnesses.
The society was incensed because the Pentagon had claimed it had the backing of the society in saying depleted uranium was not dangerous
----
Read the whole article!  THE LIE IS BOLD BARE AND BRAZEN
Britian’s premier scientific establishment “The Royal Society,” whom even Ramjet a.k.a “Willful Ignorance”, must admit are legitimate scientists, EXPOSE the LIE!
--------
Now be Informed if you will!

Depleted Intelligence of Depleted Uranium Apologists

http://www.stopnato.org.uk/du-watch/bein/apologists.htm

Being as Ramjet has already been EXPOSED – As haVE other Gov. Apologists.
You trust this guy at your peril.

Another enlightening article

This one by : By Ashraf El-Bayoumi
He is a professor of physical chemistry & biophysics in Michigan
State University and Alexandria University, and Vice- President of Alexandria
Human Rights Association.

A CACEROUS WEB OF DECEPTION

Read the whole article
http://www.xs4all.nl/~stgvisie/VISIE/cancerous-web.html

Quotes from the article:

Efforts over recent years by human rights activists to expose the disastrous
health consequences of using depleted uranium (DU) weapons were for the most
part unsuccessful…..

Thousands of Iraqi civilians and soldiers were exposed to DU. An unp