Gerard Matthew thought he was lucky. He returned from his Iraq tour a year and a half ago alive and in one piece. But after the New York State National Guardsman got home, he learned that a bunkmate, Sgt. Ray Ramos, and a group of N.Y. Guard members from another unit had accepted an offer by the New York Daily News… return to article
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Reader Comments (526)Heh folks this guy is at it under other handles too. Found him calling himself MiddleRoad here thinks Rabbit.
http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/2299/
What a Goose! Do they really promote these kind of donkeys to Lt Colonel in your country?
No wonder Aussies don’t take well to saluting US officers.
Posted by Rabbitvoz on Aug 29, 2005 at 6:13 AM mauk2:
Tungsten is far superior, because it’s not pyrophoric it only harms by shrapnel.
In the February 1991 gulf war, less than 200 soldiers ended up with DU shrapnel, but hundreds of thousands were exposed to and inhaled UO3(g) vapor fumes from the 315 tons of DU ordnance used that month, including civilians.
Furthermore, the rats might be an outlier. To quote from the article you cite, “tungsten coils implanted into ... rabbits rapidly degrade…. However, after four months, no signs of local or systemic toxicity were observed.” (Peuster, et al., Biomaterials, vol. 24 (2003) pp. 393-399.)
I’d rather put just the soldiers at risk than the soldiers and the civilians and their offspring, any day of the week. The soldiers signed up for war; the civilians and the kids did not.
Plus, shrapnel can often be removed; inhaled uranyl compounds can not.
Posted by jsalsman on Aug 29, 2005 at 6:26 AM Quote the Rabbit!
you are actually coming across as a psychopath, since there really isn’t any question that Waste Uranium is VERY BLOODY DANGEROUS, in the long term.The Rabbit Bites does he not?
mauk2
The US .mil is not immune to loud whining such as the anti-DU folks are good at. They have, reluctantly, worked on developing a replacement for DU. This is a tall order, because DU has a combination of properties that literally make it unique as a weapon alloy.What a bummer! It’s going to cost us more money to kill people in miserable ways.
What a bloody bummer!
Posted by Eadora on Aug 29, 2005 at 6:34 AM Eadora you have to see an angry rabbit to believe it. They not only bite but also growl and can maintain a sustained, ferocious attack. Upset my youngest son’s Miniature Black Rex once and will never forget the experience. The Rabbit attacked non-stop for about fifteen minutes and I emerged bloody and shaken.
I have had cause to re-consider the story about the Rabbit which swam out to Bill Clinton in the middle of a lake and bit him. Always figured the Rabbit knew exactly what it was doing. They don’t just jump into lakes without a reason, though ours enjoys Kayaking in the Swan river.
Posted by Rabbitvoz on Aug 29, 2005 at 7:39 AM I am hoping that Dave Lindorff is still reading here, because there’s something in his article that made no sense to me:
“According to Mt. Sinai pathologist Thomas Fasey, who participated in the New York Guard unit testing, the element has an affinity for bonding with DNA, where even trace amounts can cause cancers and fetal abnormalities.”
As far as I know, uranium is not known for complex covalent bonding, and DNA does not act as a chelating agent. It seems to me that if DNA had a propensity for chelating heavy metals, then uranium would be the least of our worries. So why would uranium have any affinity for *bonding* with DNA?
Meanwhile, I have a few observations about the radioactive risk from inhaled uranium:
The biological target of concern is DNA. When we’re discussing any alpha-emitter, we’re talking about double strand breaks in DNA.
The body’s first line of defense against DNA damage is its amazing ability to repair strand breaks with near perfection. (If it weren’t for this ability, we wouldn’t be here.) When the body makes an error in repair *and* the cell is not killed in the process, then we have a mutated survivor that could become cancerous if it develops a competitive advantage with normal cells.
The body’s second line of defense is for the immune system to destroy “misbehaving” mutant cells. Any suppression of immunity can be critical at this stage.
Stress is perhaps the greatest suppressor of our immune system. War is probably the most stressful possible situation. Unless there are other factors I am overlooking, it would follow that soldiers generally have suppressed immune systems.
However, as I recall, all of the cohorts used for uranium dose conversion factors are groups of people who were not under unusual stress. Therefore, while the *dose* conversion factors may be correct from that data, the *effective* dose (that is, the biological effect per unit of absorbed energy) may be significantly underestimated for combat soldiers.
That may be a significant factor in the kind of observations made by Dave Lindorff and others.
As an interesting aside, I noted the figure of 300 tons of uranium munitions used by U.S. soldiers. In my research on the Yellowstone Caldera, I discovered that a series of eruptions over the past million years emitted 300 *million* tons of uranium into the air. Considering the different time scales, I realize that the comparison is like apples to oranges, but it seems worth mentioning.
Your body sees no difference between the alpha particle from the Yellowstone dust in your backyard and the one from shrapnel. The critical differences may be scale and stress.
Posted by knappster on Aug 29, 2005 at 7:50 AM Knappster says “The biological target of concern is DNA. When we’re discussing any alpha-emitter, we’re talking about double strand breaks in DNA.” and this too is Rabbit’s understanding. But there is much more to it, though the details need not be sticking points. Nothing credible brings the basic premise that waste uranium, (that is the word people, depleted is a relative term and is just NEWTHINK tactics) is bad for people. In the short term, medium term, the long and even the very, very long term. If you want to do the maximum damage to the maximum number of people for the maximum amount of time it is a great idea to vapourise it in the way it is used by war criminal nations. Because it is an illegal weapon of war. Both Nuclear and Chemical bans cover it. Actually sane people never questioned this before either.
There is easily acessible info here;http://www.iicph.org/docs/host_response_to_du.htm
This quote by Rosalie Bertell, Ph.D., GNSH,
“Depleted uranium is some thousand times more radioactive than natural uranium in its natural state in soil and rock”
This is a start to putting the natural uranium from volcanoes into perspective and it might help to remember that there isn’t much we can do about volcanoes. DU weapons on the other hand are a choice, though not for those who must use them it seems.
Posted by Rabbitvoz on Aug 29, 2005 at 8:55 AM Knappster:
The uranyl ion and its complexes form ligands with protiens and DNA, when it’s not catalyzing hydroxyl and other oxidative radicals. Please see: H. Huang, et al., “Uranyl-Peptide Interactions in Carbonate Solution with DAHK and Derivatives,” Inorganic Chemistry, vol. 44 (2005), pp. 813-815:
http://www.bovik.org/du/uranyl-peptide.pdf
and for DNA: M. Yazzie, et al., Chemical Research in Toxicology, vol. 16 (2003) pp. 524-530.The radioactivity of uranium is of essentially no consequence in relation to DNA damage compared with its chemical toxicity producing oxidative stress resulting in oxidation damage to DNA. Any discussion of U radioactivity in that context is tantamount to misdirection from the more hazardous chemical toxicity. This must be the 100th time I’ve had to explain this, and at least the 3rd or forth on this thread.
Posted by jsalsman on Aug 29, 2005 at 4:12 PM rabbitvoz sez: “Why are you making the assumption that concerns about DU are hysteria?”
Because study after study has shown no connection between DU exposure (which is bad, mind you, but then, so is lead exposure) and these mystery ailments. Arguments unsupported by facts are generally driven by hysteria.
“They have been discussed in rational terms with so many facts raised which remove all doubt that DU ammunition is dangerous.”
Heh. Let me get this straight: You’re complaining that BULLETS are DANGEROUS?
LOL. Of COURSE they are. THEY’RE BULLETS.
Duh?
I think what you meant to say is that DU has unintended levels of incidental toxicity. That is a far more nebulous claim, and frankly, one that is unsupported by facts.
“...even if you are not Rambo Helbig in another guise, you seem to be.”
Nope! I saw this conversation posted on a mailing list I frequent, and since I am a small, weak person in many ways, I came by to inject some facts into the argument. I know, it’s a thankless task…. :(
jsalsman sez:
“Tungsten is far superior, because it’s not pyrophoric it only harms by shrapnel.”
While it is true that inhaling uranium isn’t very good for you, the rapidity with which UO2 poweder settles makes this unlikely. The Uranium trioxide vapor notion, I’m not so sure of either, but I’d be willing to see that examined as a possible exposure mechanism. But, given the crushing density of UO3 (it’s twice as dense as basalt, for example) and the fact that we used to make Fiestaware out of it, I have a hard time believing it’s the “smoking gun.” But I could be convinced!
That said, don’t get the tungsten-based weapon alloy tested in the link I posted before confused with plain old tungsten. This stuff is very new, very advanced, an amorphous alloy more similar to glass than standard metal alloys. It was quite a shock to see its carcenogenic behavior be so radically different from plain old tungsten.
Here’s a little more info about the alloy:
http://www.mindfully.org/Nucs/2003/DU-Amorphous-Tungsten-Alloy30jul03.htm
It’s a darn good thing they decided to check on this stuff. I sure don’t want the .mil having access to that kind of a directed cancer weapon. <shudder> As for removing the shrapnel? Read the paper on the rats study I linked more closely. Of the tiny pellets implanted, less than 5 percent eroded away. This puts the fatal dose for that stuff potentially down into the single milligram range.You can’t even SEE specks that small, forget about removing them.
What’s more, given the lethality mechanism (metastisizing cancers) the mortality remains 100 percent. It’s just the latency period before the cancer eats you alive that changes.
eadora sez:
“The Rabbit Bites does he not?”
Heh.
Oh, yeah, I’m bloody and shaking after that one, lemme tell ya. :D
“It’s going to cost us more money to kill people in miserable ways. “
So, you APPROVE of retiring DU in favor of the cancer weapon? WHY?
rabbit sez:
“I have had cause to re-consider the story about the Rabbit which swam out to Bill Clinton in the middle of a lake and bit him.”
<sigh>
That was President Carter. Please try to get SOMETHING right.
Here’s the picture:
http://www.narsil.org/politics/carter/large_rabbit_image.html
Here’s the story:
http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a4_019.html
And we’re naming an Attack Sub after this guy. <sigh>
Posted by mauk2 on Aug 29, 2005 at 4:33 PM jsalsman:
“The radioactivity of uranium is of essentially no consequence in relation to DNA damage compared with its chemical toxicity producing oxidative stress resulting in oxidation damage to DNA.”
Maybe you should tell this to the author, who used the word “radioactive” in the title to hook people into reading his article.
Posted by jsong123 on Aug 29, 2005 at 6:22 PM YOH! mauk2 - Your lame attempts at Ridicule are most humorous.
Quote mauk2
“I think what you meant to say is that DU has unintended levels of incidental toxicity. That is a far more nebulous claim, and frankly, one that is unsupported by facts.”and
“Nope! I saw this conversation posted on a mailing list I frequent, and since I am a small, weak person in many ways, I came by to inject some facts into the argument”
It would seem small & weak would describe not only you, but your intellectual honesty as well as your facts.
Try to get your nose out of Gov. sponsored Whitewash.
Please review the posts and links on this thread before in inject your “Willful Ignorance.”
FACTS contradict your contention.
The FACTS are very well supported.
Start by dealing with the FACT of Gerard Matthew.OR - Perhaps like the “RAMJET” you to have a vested interest.
——————CONFERENCE RESOLUTION 2 FROM THE WORLD DU URANIUM WEAPONS CONFERENCE – SCIENTIST COMMUNIQUE
http://www.uraniumweaponsconference.de/pdf/conferenceresolution2.pdfQuotes from the article: Be sure to read the whole thing.
“This conference affirms and accepts , with regard to the outcome of using uranium weapons, that the following facts are beyond question”
Uranium weapons are converted upon impact into ceramic and other oxide particles whose mean diameters are in range of 0.001 to 1.0 microns with a mean diameter of 01.01 micron.
Such material is entirely novel and its properties and effects cannot be related scientifically to studies of uranium dust from mining and processing operations .Uranium oxide can travel hundreds of miles.
Depleted uranium dust does not remain near the target but is widely dispersed by geophysical mechanisms.
Although the ICRP model used by risk agencies and military predicts that depleted uranium doses are to low for measurable health effects, this model is not appropriate. This is because internal particle radiation causes high dose to local tissue, whereas ICRP model is an approximation which applies to external radiation average doses.
There is massive evidence of health risk from exposure to uranium oxide dust.
READ THE WHOLE THING
Posted by Eadora on Aug 29, 2005 at 6:24 PM “Because study after study has shown no connection between DU exposure (which is bad, mind you, but then, so is lead exposure) and these mystery ailments. Arguments unsupported by facts are generally driven by hysteria.”
It’s so easy to spot the psychotic personalities that post here—they always spout-off oblivious to the article.
Posted by Tim Christopher on Aug 29, 2005 at 6:24 PM You apologists for DU death are a real treat!
It’s like dealing with cockroaches on a kitchen table.DEATH BY SLOW BURN – WHAT’S THE BIG DEAL?
http://www.barremore.net/depleted-uranium-kills.html
quote from Article; Read the whole
Today in 2005, fourteen years after the first massive use of depleted uranium munitions against Iraq, countless thousands (or millions) of victims cry in vain for relief as the United States and other military forces continue to use DU weaponry. Anyone seeking to end this suicidal chemical and radiological gas warfare is confronting one of the biggest institutional lies in history, the lie that uranium munitions pose no long-term or widespread health hazard.
The truth, being pieced together by dedicated, disciplined, peer-reviewed scientists worldwide, is too horrifying for most people to contemplate. The vaporized, ceramic uranium oxides which billow as smoke from an impacting DU shell have poisoned, and continue to contaminate the environment with minute, undetectable uranium oxide particles which will remain radioactive and toxic for the lifetime of Earth. (4.5 billion+ years)
Check out some of the numerous links————————-
ROYAL SOCIETY WARNS OF RISKS FROM DLEPLETED URANIUM.
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/326/7396/952
quote from the article: Read the whole
“The Royal Society has long been calling for further research into depleted uranium, and it cautions that soldiers and civilians may have been exposed to dangerous levels, contradicting defence minister Geoff Hoon’s assurance that there was “not the slightest scientific evidence” to suggest that depleted uranium left a poisonous residue. “COMPENDIUM OF URANIUM RESEARCH AND DEPLETED URANIUM 1942-2004
http://www.idust.net/Compendium/Compendium.htm
————————-
WHO – “SUPRESSED SCIENTIFIC STUDY”http://www.axisoflogic.com/cgi-bin/exec/view.pl?archive=43&num=5279
———————
MASSIVE EPIDEMIC OF SEVERE BIRTH DEFECTS
http://www.americanfreepress.net/06_24_03/Massive_Epidemic_/massive_epidemic_.ht tml
Posted by Eadora on Aug 29, 2005 at 6:27 PM God! It’s like dealing with a sub human species
You can continue in your denials and rants,
“There is no Evidence” - “There is no Evidence” - “There is no Evidence” –The Evidence has been placed before you again and again and again.
You fail to perceive it and remain “Willfully Ignorant” of it.
It does not fit your jaundiced diseased worldview.By arguing your case in a public forum such as this you EXPOSE yourselves.
More “Smoke & Mirrors please. The view is disgusting. But it helps us get the word out.Depleted Uranium is only approx. half as hot as the so-called undepleted variety.
Well I guess you just need twice as much of it to kill people. And with all the thousands and thousands of tons that have been DIRTY BOMBED about, I expect you will find it sufficient to your purposes.To attempt to rationalize and justify the use of Virulent Toxic Radioactive Waste because its cheap and effective! You better hope and pray you never have to give account.
Just following orders I suppose. What a bag of snakes!It becomes impossible to be nice to such sub human behavior.
Posted by Eadora on Aug 29, 2005 at 6:49 PM Eadora sez: “READ THE WHOLE THING”
Hey. it’s only a few pages, of course I read the whole thing, it took me like 30 minutes. :)
Here’s the link:
http://www.uraniumweaponsconference.de/pdf/conferenceresoluttion2.pdf
This is a list of findings. I find these unpersuasive, because all too often the folks involved are quite partisan in their opinions. I would much prefer links to the source papers, such as I provided for the tungsten weapon alloy above.
That said, some of these papers seeme dubious in their claims at best, although I’ll have to admit, the “photoelectron amplification” paper sounds darn interesting and even maybe vaguely plausible. Most of these seem like epidemiological studies, and frankly, stats like those can be massaged to say about anything by people with an agenda. Here’s a truism you never see people who make these epidemiological admit to: “Correlation does not mean causation.”
There is a very strong correlation between lying down and dying. Does this mean that if you stand up forever, you’ll be immortal?
Now, your next link:
http://www.barremore.net/depleted-uranium-kills.html
Lots of words, lots of angst, very few facts. Felt like wading through a fever dream, but as I was asked to read the whole thing, I did. Even the part where the page accused President Clinton of laundering drug money for the first President Bush. Do you actually BELIEVE this stuff? :D
I especially liked the little “Arrest Bush-Cheney” ad at the bottom, nice little factual, non-partisan touch. :)
Sadly, heated rhetoric doesn’t mean a thing.
Okay this link:
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/326/7396/952
It’s just a news article. Gimme some links to source papers. This biased crap that passes for journalism these days means nothing except that some hack made his deadline on time.
Now this link seemed more promising:
http://www.idust.net/Compendium/Compendium.htm
But it’s just a bunch of links to paper abstracts as far as I can tell. Abstracts are nice and all, but more than a little short of information.
This link seems broken somehow:
http://www.axisoflogic.com/cgi-bin/exec/view.pl?archive=43&a amp;num=5279
This link gives me a 404 error:
http://www.americanfreepress.net/06_24_03/Massive_Epidemic_/ /massive_epidemic_.html
Now, you are aware that depeleted uranium is less radioactive than natural uranium.It is chemically identical.
Thus, natural uranium should be worse than depelted uranium, yes? More rads, same chemistry.
If this is the case, why is anybody alive? Uranium is EVERYWHERE.
You do realize that uranium is present in phosphate fertilizers that are used to grow most of our food, right?
http://www.orau.org/ptp/collection/consumer products/fertilizer.htm
If uranium is so deadly, why aren’t we all dead already?
Here, just go to this page and scare yourself green.
http://www.orau.org/ptp/collection/consumer products/consumer.htm
We live in a SEA of radiation. The extra smidgeon that DU adds is so miniscule it makes no difference whatsoever.
The CHEMICAL toxicity of uranium, now that’s something to avoid. But that’s still not as bad as lead or chromium or <shudder> beryllium.
Lots of stuff is radioactive or poisonous. Lots of stuff is more radioactive and more poisonous than DU. The world is not dead. Thus, the whole anti-DU fixation is the result of hysteria. Sorry.
Posted by mauk2 on Aug 29, 2005 at 11:00 PM mauk2 is obviously Roger in drag.
Note the similar writing style.
;-)
mmmmm…...depleted uranium
mmmmm…...anti-matter
Posted by Natalie on Aug 30, 2005 at 12:24 AM You got it Eadora, sub-human species. mauk2 Rabbit was indeed wrong about which president the Rabbit bit. That however is the only point about which I am wrong.
You are indeed Ramjet though. I’ve been checking around this site and there appears to be one particular troll who keeps changing his name and posting under attempted different guises. Since we’ve already outed Lt Colonel ROGER HELBIG under several of these already. Apart from the format and tone of your arguments each time you don’t realise it but you’re making certain keyboard errors which are tranferring from one of your incarnations to the next.
You remind Rabbit of a lone soldier jumping from gun to gun pulling off a few shots from each, trying to make it look like there is a whole bunch of you. You have even passed off from one character to the next, like a relay team. Once in a while you have one of your faces compliment the other on it’s great intelligence and insight. “Happy Birthday to Me.” Pretty sad actually old son. Why don’t you stop your pathetic games, come and join the human race.
As for being scared, you are. You live in fear, you never knew anything else, and that is the truth. I’m pissing you off, you’ve never once attended to the simple questions about disposal of waste uranium, (same stuff) the actual measured radiation poisoning and birth defects. You’ve avoided the issue about DU being banned as a chemical and Nuclear weapon. You are a cretinous liar. You are supporting acts known as war crimes, we have your name Colonel and it has been added to the list. You will be held accountable for your role. The penalties for yours and your masters crimes include the death penalty. Your putrid world is collapsing faster than you can imagine and your judgement day is coming soon. Whether or not you know it or admit it makes no difference. Reality exists despite your lies.
You are a coward. Helping to maintain the lie so others can be tricked into dying, there is of course no way you would ever use these weapons or even go into combat. This Colonel leads from the rear.
mauk2, Natalie, Ramjet and all your other alter egos, you are decietful, stupid and cowardly. You have said enough to prove to Rabbit that you must understand the science well enough, you are not denying the Radiation dangers of DU because you doubt them. You are deliberately lying therefore and in the name of all sentient creatures, I curse your soul to eternal shame. You are on the losing side, but unlike many of your fellow rats, we have your name. There’ll be no hiding when the day of judgment come.
As for whether or not you are scared of Rabbit. You are. I’ve messed up your little games big time. You’ve tried to ignore my few simple irrefutable points and instead done nothing except try to insult me. Don’t you realise that Rabbit would be offended if someone like you didn’t hate me? You have tried to clowd the issue and changed your disguise repeatedly. You havn’t won a single point, except Carter which you’re welcome to.
Everybody knows who you are and they have utterly refuted everything you’ve presented. So why are you still here? Probably under orders and we already know your masters don’t know when they are losing.Can’t wait to see your next trick Colonel. Why don’t you have all your characters come on at once? they could compliment each other on their insight and cleverness, back each other up and so on. Heh we’ll play along, we can pretend we don’t know they’re all you if you want. Whatever you do don’t give up. You are providing such a classic example of Government disinfo agent that people are coming to this site now just to check you out.
A few more names people. Rabbit may be wrong about all of these being one person but have cross matched them to no more than two people. Roger Ramjet, Natalie, mauk2, WhatTheHeck, al-Dakari, U Scare Me. Can’t remember any more just now.
Posted by Rabbitvoz on Aug 30, 2005 at 1:04 AM Oh Colonel, you are such a dammed liar. Rabbit just realised you told another huge lie.
“Now, you are aware that depeleted uranium is less radioactive than natural uranium.
It is chemically identical”
Bullshit. Depleted Uranium is a thousand times more radioactive than natural Uranium.
End of Story.
Posted by Rabbitvoz on Aug 30, 2005 at 1:07 AM Response by mauk2 To:
CONFERENCE RESOLUTION 2 FROM THE WORLD DU URANIUM WEAPONS CONFERENCE – SCIENTIST’S COMMUNIQUE
http://www.uraniumweaponsconference.de/pdf/conferenceresolution2.pdf
“This is a list of findings. I find these unpersuasive, because all too often the folks involved are quite partisan in their opinions.”
Well that’s convenient, It is unpersuasive because I do not like what it says. Brilliant!
When I asked you to read the report, I suppose I should have asked you to attempt to perceive what it said.
This is a statement from Bona Fide Scientists regarding what they know of the nature of DU.
They are not Pentagon hacks. PLEASE REVIEW
“This conference affirms and accepts, with regard to the outcome of using uranium weapons, that the following facts are beyond question”
“Uranium weapons are converted upon impact into ceramic and other oxide particles whose mean diameters are in range of 0.001 to 1.0 microns with a mean diameter of 01.01 micron.
Such material is entirely novel and its properties and effects cannot be related scientifically to studies of uranium dust from mining and processing operations .”
“Uranium oxide can travel hundreds of miles.”
“Depleted uranium dust does not remain near the target but is widely dispersed by geophysical mechanisms. It has been found in the Iraqi desert 10 years after the conflict (Busby, Iraq data). It has been found in street dust in Gjakove, Kosovo (Busby, Nippon TV, BBC) 13 months after use. It was found in 46 percent of all samples taken by UNEP 13 month after use, and was also found by UNEP in Bosnia and Montenegro”
My Note:. ( It is worth while noting that neither of these countries suffered direct DU bombing)
“There is massive evidence of health risk from exposure to uranium oxide dust……………”
*It includes the genetic component of Gulf War Syndrome including cancer, lymphoma and leukemia:”
“It includes the Italian Kosovo and Bosnia peacekeepers study of may 2001 which showed a clear and significant 3-fold increase in lymphoma in personal stationed in the Balkans, 7.5-fold excess relative to a normal military population:”
And On and ON Read and Review and make an attempt to perceive what is being said “mauk2”
Posted by Eadora on Aug 30, 2005 at 1:56 AM URANIUM KILLS A DEATH BY SLOW BURN
http://www.barremore.net/depleted-uranium-kills.htmlresponse by “mauk2”
“Lots of words, lots of angst, very few facts”Look again! It is loaded with facts! This time put your perceptive faculties in gear.
You simply do not like the strident tone of the Link.
It shines the Light on Bloody Hands, Bros.!——————————— ;
response by “mauk2”
“Now, you are aware that depeleted uranium is less radioactive than natural uranium”NOT - TRUE! And here the Lie should be revealed to you! If by chance you believe your it! True uranium is uranium But the difference in purity contained in a pound of fertilizer and a pound of the solid metal is fairly large Bros!
So-called “depleted uranium” is uranium that has had the fissionable isotope U235 partially removed during the enrichment process for use in nuclear weapons and as fuel for nuclear reactors. However, 250,000 metric tons of this so-called depleted uranium is actually waste left over from the reprocessing of irradiated reactor fuel, leaving it salted with fission products such as plutonium, americium, neptunium and U-236.
It is in itself highly refined!It is approximately 40 to 60 % as radioactive as the most refined fissionable forms. EG Uranium236 or Plutonium. IT IS A HIGHLY REFINED HEAVY METAL
It has little in common with the background radiation found in your fertilizer.
Why do you think that they do not just dump it at the Local Landfill, FOOL!
This stuff is deadly! - We have been DIRTY BOMBING foreign countries for to long.Quote the mauk2
“Lots of stuff is radioactive or poisonous. Lots of stuff is more radioactive and more poisonous than DU. The world is not dead. Thus, the whole anti-DU fixation is the result of hysteria. Sorry.”And “Sorry”, we will all be if we do not stop fouling our Nest with this stuff.
Again Please REVIEW the statement made by the independent scientists who conducted the Hamburg ConferenceQuote:
“Uranium weapons are converted upon impact into ceramic and other oxide particles whose mean diameters are in range of 0.001 to 1.0 microns with a mean diameter of 01.01 micron.”
”Such material is entirely novel and its properties and effects cannot be related scientifically to studies of uranium dust from mining and processing operations.”Do you get it YET????
I must ask you again. Why do you attempt to rationalize and justify spreading our nuclear waste on foreign countries in the form of exploded munitions.?
Please explain the “morality” of that. Please explain Yourself!I’ll fix the other link when I have time. Or you can Google them.
I got to be GONE for a bit.
Posted by Eadora on Aug 30, 2005 at 1:57 AM Eadora we are actually arguing with someone that depleted uranium is dangerous, talk about surreal eh?. mauk2 is not going to progress. Rabbit is quite sure it is just the latest incarnation of Colonel Ramjet. Is this guy a fruit loop or what. He’s trying to bring Natalie up like a phoenix from the ashes, but he’s keeping mauk in there just in case. Not putting all his eggs in one basket you see.
If the Shill’s employers are reading this, don’t change the guy out, we love him. He allows us to fill in all the details clearly in a format that allows open minded people to both see the truth and to see you guys hard at trying to decieve them. Keep up the good work you silly shilly.
Posted by Rabbitvoz on Aug 30, 2005 at 2:15 AM One last comment. I can’t stop myself. Roger says depleted uranium is less radioactive than uranium. For christ’s sake. All depleted uranium is, is uranium that has had most of the U235 taken out of it (the stuff needed for fission chain reactions in bombs and nuke plants). Since U235 occurs in nature at about 2 percent of all uranium, with U238 accounting for about 98 percent of any sample, depleting it has very little effect on total radioactivity, though it’s true that U235 is a bit more radioactive than U238. But again, it’s not the radioactivity alone, or even primarily, that is what makes depleted uranium so dangerous.
Nuff said on this whole string. We know who the liars and shills are, and nothing has been said in all this to undermine the point of the article, which is that DU is a heinous crime against both our own troops and their families and against the Iraqi and Afghani people.
Dave Lindorff
Posted by dlindorff on Aug 30, 2005 at 2:22 AM Yoh Rabbit!
They Is Lower Life Forms Fer Sure!
They expose themselves for what they are.
People who would spread Toxic Waste upon our world, and who would try to justify it with Toxic Lies.THEY HAVE BEEN EXPOSED
Posted by Eadora on Aug 30, 2005 at 2:22 AM dlindorff:“We know who the liars and shills are”
And you used a baby and the word “radioactive” to draw attention to your shit article.
Posted by jsong123 on Aug 30, 2005 at 2:44 AM Q: Would you care to explain how posting information on uranium poisoning is costing American lives?
A: Simple, when the information is not true and it is used to recruit suicide bombers.
When they figure out we’re trying to kill them they become suicidal. We’ll just wait ‘em out.
And poison their water table.
Posted by SourDove on Aug 30, 2005 at 3:34 AM natalie sez: “mauk2 is obviously Roger in drag.
Note the similar writing style.
;-)”
Hey, don’t laugh, the denizens of the fever swamp here are claiming that I’m YOU, too. :Drabbitvoz hammered at the keyboard for a while, then finally mangaged to form a coherent sentence:
“Depleted Uranium is a thousand times more radioactive than natural Uranium.”
Sadly, this is completely wrong. :(
Posted by mauk2 on Aug 30, 2005 at 3:43 AM Lindorff,
Less radioactive than naturally occuring Uranium and it is substantially less so .. you are no objective reporter, but a shill for the activists. Did you read the Health Physics Society DU Fact Sheet? No, that would be actual research instead of lapping up whatever Rokke feeds you.
Now as to the slop he fed you, did you ask
for Rokke’s last efficiency report from the Chemical School that resulted in his beiong fired from civil service, not one that contains the usual puffery that Rokke received, like most military and civilian workers, before his incompetence was discovered.
No, I thought not.
Far as Rabbitvoz goes, I wonder how much he makes off of peddling the anti-DU line .. is he a paid employee of Traprock Peace Center or maybe Asaf Durakovic’s Uranium Medical Research Center .. which probably could find Uranium in anyone’s urine since we all live on Earth and Uranium is one of the most commonly occuring minerals on the planet.
I don’t work for anyone .. no one pays me to oppose you yo yo’s and it is not in the best interests of American servicemen to participate in your DU witch hunt.
Posted by Ramjet on Aug 30, 2005 at 3:47 AM Again, To all you Apologists of “DU DEATH”
Why do you attempt to rationalize and justify spreading our Toxic Nuclear Waste on foreign countries in the form of exploded munitions.?
Please explain the “morality” of thatBecause no matter how you guys slither around together in your bag of snakes,
DU is Toxic Nuclear Waste.
Or do you dare not even admit that to yourselves.
You cannot avoid that fact.
How do you deal with that fact.
How do you deal with the fact of Gerard Matthew.
Or are you so caught up in your game of P.R. & Spin that you comfortably ignore those facts.
Please explain the “morality” of that.
Please explain your mindset that allows you to do that.
Please explain Yourself
Please explain how you can so EXPOSE your Naked and Brutal nature, warts and all, and still live with yourself.
I am curious to Know. !And still you carry on insisting on your “Smoke and Mirror” tactics as if they would hide your nakedness.
You respond:
“Sadly, this is completely wrong :”Sadly you say -
You would try to convince us that “Tons of Pure Refined Heavy Metal Uranium” is no more of a problem than the background radiation in a bag of fertilizer.Why do you do that?? I am really curious to know!
War is being waged as we spend time together here on this forum.
People are dying horrible deaths and you would make apology for the very worst of it.It would be funny if it were not so desperately SICK.
Perhaps that is what the “Banality of Evil” is all about.
Posted by Eadora on Aug 30, 2005 at 4:15 AM Dave Lindorff sez: “Since U235 occurs in nature at about 2 percent of all uranium, with U238 accounting for about 98 percent of any sample, depleting it has very little effect on total radioactivity, though it’s true that U235 is a bit more radioactive than U238.”
Oh, good grief.I had to check twice to be sure that the guy who posted this bit of fallacy was, indeed, the AUTHOR OF THE ARTICLE.
How can you be so freakin’ worked up about a substance when you have only the vaguest idea WHAT IT IS?
Natural Uranium is composed of THREE isotopes. U238 is 99.3-odd percent. U235 is .7-odd percent, not 2. Reactor fuel is 2-5 percent. (Candu’s even less.) U234 is there in trace amounts.
U235 is the LEAST radioactive of them. U238 is actually MORE radioactive than U235. But U234 is much, much more radioactive than either of them. The process that seperates U235 from U238 also removes the U234, even more completely. That is the main reason why depleted uranium, also known as purified U238, is LESS radioactive than natural out-of-the-ground uranium by something over a third, depending on how hard it was run through the seperative machinery.
Don’t want to believe me? Educate yourself:
http://education.jlab.org/itselemental/ele092.htmlhttp://www.gulflink.osd.mil/du_ii/du_ii_tabc.htm
Don’t you have any shame, writing such drivel when you don’t know what the heck you’re talking about?
The esteemed author then stated:“But again, it’s not the radioactivity alone, or even primarily, that is what makes depleted uranium so dangerous.”
WHAT?! You mean uranium is a toxic heavy metal? And that’s the main source of concern? Like lead contamination, uranium contamination is bad? DUH.
So why is the title of your article “RADIOACTIVE Wounds of War?”
You’re shilling for your target audience. For shame.
I hope you got paid well for prostituting yourself like this, on a topic you don’t even know much about.
He then says: “Nuff said on this whole string.”
No, I don’t think so. Now you’ve got my attention. Sloppy work in your research. Naughty.I may have to look up some more of your articles, see about keeping you honest.
He states: “We know who the liars and shills are,”Yeah, we do, and they include YOU. When you make basic factual errors on the topic of discussion, that doesn’t do your credibility any good whatever.
More in my next reply, this is gettin’ good.
Posted by mauk2 on Aug 30, 2005 at 4:46 AM The author of the article that started this fun conversation triumphantly concludes:
“nothing has been said in all this to undermine the point of the article, which is that DU is a heinous crime against both our own troops and their families and against the Iraqi and Afghani people.”
Well, at the risk of wandering offtopic a bit, let’s address that then.I have posted links to the FACT that the replacement the .mil developed for DU is far, far worse than DU is.
I have further noted that DU is unique in its combination of properties. It is the best substance that exists at destroying armor. Even the liquid metal tungsten alloy is only close.
Are you stating that the US .mil should stop using DU minitions without any replacement? Why would the military do that? Their JOB is to kill people and break stuff. They all volunteered to do it, too. If they aren’t careful playing with their nasty toys, THAT’S THEIR FAULT. The military isn’t full of innocent babes, it’s full of hardened, experienced killers, and I am thankful for that fact.
Now, about the Iraqi and Afghan peoples:Do you want to argue that the dictator who formerly ruled in Iraq was “better” for the Iraqi people than their own elected government will be? Name for me any representative government, of any form, that was worse for the populace than a totalitarian despot.
Or do you want to argue that said dictator could have been removed without military force?
Do you want to argue that the catastrophic sanctions regime would have worked “eventually?”
Do I have to start posting links to the “oil for food” mess in order to make this point?
No, it seems clear to me that there was no other course besides keeping the status quo, or military action. Like it or hate it, we chose military action.
You use the military, they bring all their nasty toys. Lead and napalm and bomblets and mines and artillery and tanks and yes, even depleted uranium. But depleted uranium isn’t “special” in that rogues gallery. I’d argue napalm is much, much nastier, and sub-munitions and mines are way up there too.
This isn’t rocket science.
Sure, lots of people are (to further their own agendas) pushing this “DU is the devil” foolishness, but the facts don’t support it.
I used a half hour today chasing down the cites of one of the fever denizens here, and they all had NO FACTS.
Sorry.
DU is nasty stuff. But it’s no worse than lead, and is probably better than mercury or arsenic, and is WAY better than napalm. It’s not some magical ogre out to eat children.
You all do a mis-service by spreading these lies and propaganda without bothering to educate yourselves.
For shame.
Posted by mauk2 on Aug 30, 2005 at 4:51 AM mauk2:
My replies to your messages are below. But first a word to some of the more prolific particpants here.
People, would you please squelch the personal attacks? Even if they are deserved, they don’t do any good, and they clutter up the thread terribly making life difficult for those of us trying to have a rational discussion. There is no question that there has been a lot of exaggeration, hyperbole, and vindictiveness on both sides of the DU debate. Few people have remained untouched by these failures in rational argument. If either side wishes to make any real progress, we have to get past the invalid forms of argument, including the personal attacks. Please hold your comments if you don’t have anything nice or factually-supported to say. I realize in an issue of this tremendous import it is difficult, but it really is necessary if any of us hope to get anywhere.
Now, on to my replies to mauk2:
Regarding your comments, “The Uranium
trioxide vapor notion, I’m not so sure of either, but I’d be willing to
see that examined as a possible exposure mechanism.” I recommend the following primary source from the peer-reviewed scientific literature: R.J. Ackermann, R.J. Thorn, C. Alexander, and M. Tetenbaum, in “Free Energies of Formation of Gaseous Uranium, Molybdenum, and Tungsten Trioxides,” Journal of Physical Chemistry, vol. 64 (1960) pp. 350-355, state within their abstract, “gaseous monomeric uranium trioxide is the principal species produced by the reaction of U3O8 with oxygen.” They indicate that this occurs at 1200 to 1800 Kelvin, which is well below the temperature at which uranium burns in air (E.M. Mouradian, L. Baker, Jr., “Burning Temperatures of Uranium and Zirconium in Air,” Nuclear Science and Engineering, vol. 15 (1963), p. 388-394, in particular Fig. 6 on page 392, and Fig. 3.) By “monomeric,” the authors clearly mean “monomolecular,” and indicate that almost all such UO3 produced is in the gaseous state and comprised of single molecules. The fact of UO3(g) vapor production is supported by the first seven peer-reviewed articles listed in this bibliography:
http://www.bovik.org/du/2bibs.htmlRegarding your comments, “Uranium is EVERYWHERE. You do realize that uranium is present in phosphate fertilizers that are used to grow most of our food, right?” The issue here is that 97% of naturally occuring uranium is in the safe and relativly insoluble quadravalent uranium(IV) oxidation state. You can swallow five grams of UO2 without much harm—a person tried in 1996 to commit suicide with 15 grams of uranium(IV) acetate, and it didn’t work; the patient lived after six months of dialysis.
The problem is with inhalation of the relativly soluble uranyl ion, e.g. in uranyl oxide (UO3). The hexavalent uranium(VI) ions such as uranyl—unlike any metalic uranium(0) or uranium(IV) ion such as in UO2 or U3O8—is “biologically available,” which means it is distributed into many tissues, some of which it accumulates in (e.g. the testes.) In addition to being biologically available, it catalyses oxidative radicals which damage DNA, and binds to proteins and DNA through ligation, which allows it to enter cells and nuclei. That is bad news.
The problem with the chemical toxicity of uranium is that it attacks the chromosomes instead of other reticulated cell structures, making it a harm to the immune syste (resulting in gulf war illness) and offspring of male exposure victims with increased incidence of birth defects.
(continued below)
Posted by jsalsman on Aug 30, 2005 at 8:15 AM (continued from previous comment)
mauk2:
Regarding your comment, “U238 is actually MORE radioactive than U235.” Actually, the reverse is true. All the three primary uranium isotopes decay by alpha emission. Their abundance and half lives are as follows:
U234 0.005% 2.5×10+5 years
U235 0.72% 7.0×10+8 years
U238 99.3% 4.5×10+9 yearsSince alpha emission is the same energy, the longer lived isotopes are the less radioactive, making U238 the least radioactive, U235 more radioactive, and U234 the most radioactive. In practive, depleted uranium is about 40% less radioactive than natural uranium.
Regarding your comments, “why is the title of your article ‘RADIOACTIVE Wounds of War?’ You’re shilling for your target audience.” I feel ambivalent about this. On balance, I feel a better title would be, “Birth Defect-Inducing Wounds of War.” However, I find it hard to object to the title as it stands because I strongly feel this issue deserves more attention.Sincerely,
James
Posted by jsalsman on Aug 30, 2005 at 8:16 AM What Roger Ramjet doesn’t tell you.
Bob Evans was a reporter, now editor, in a town where the biggest employee is the Army Transportation Corps.
Second, even with that bias his series documents the US military continued refusal to conduct testing for radiation contamination
What does Bob Evans say - “The US government advertises a test for its veterans of that war too. But the test that it offers can’t detect uranium in low amounts, has a high error rate and uses equipment that’s less sensitive and accurate than the machines the British are using. US vets and soldiers who’ve had this test say they’ve been told they weren’t exposed when, in fact, the tests were simply incapable of detecting whether depleted uranium was present.”
http://www.envirosagainstwar.org/know/read.php?itemid=2214Evans documents the continued denials of the military of any problems with depleted uranium while getting interviews with men who have obvious radiation sickness.
Most of the sick veterans have symptoms similar to navy personnel at Operation Crossroads in the Pacific where men stood on ships as radioactive mist rained down. These men were then repeated ordered to clean contaminated ships for weeks in an effort to develop a means of removing contamination. For over 45 years the Navy insisted that none of the men had problems caused by their experience.
http://www.aracnet.com/~pdxavets/deny.htmHe is a troll. It is interesting the series he sites supports the claims of DU caused radiation damage but he only quotes controversial researchers in the articles that deny these claims similar to the way the military always denies dangers of weapons in use.
Gary
Easter Lemming Liberal News Digest
http://elemming2.blogspot.com
Posted by Easter on Aug 30, 2005 at 10:05 AM Actually Lt Colonel Helbig doesn’t tell us anything, in any of his guises. He has however helped draw out some good information via the refutation of all his posts by well informed people, allowing anyone who visits this thread to check the Official story in detail and to see a military shill in all his naked glory trying to stop the leaks in their rapidly sinking ship.
The use of Depleted Uranium in weapons and deploying said weapons is a war crime and so it should be. The US military has authored it’s own destruction with its present course. America will still have to answer for their actions at the end of the day.
Posted by Rabbitvoz on Aug 30, 2005 at 11:15 AM Rabbitvoz is a “real man” or is he .. if he were, instead of sniping from the woods, he would step out in the open and declare who he is instead of hiding behind a pseudonymn. I made a mistake by using my real first name, but so what .. I just do not want my inbox filled with drivel such as Rabbitvoz dishes out. So Rabbitvoz, step out in the open and declare who you are, you know how to find me. I do not take kindly to being called a shill .. shills deceptively work for others and I work for nothing other than the satisfaction that I am providing truthful information. That is more than I can say for Rokke and his shills, one of whom I presume is you Rabbitvoz.
Posted by Ramjet on Aug 30, 2005 at 11:28 AM Again, To all you Apologists of “DU DEATH” and War Crime
Why do you attempt to rationalize and justify spreading our Toxic Nuclear Waste on foreign countries in the form of exploded munitions.?
Please explain the “morality” of thatPlease review my previous post and offer me your answer to my questions. I am very curious to know your answers to my queries, and my concerns on the banality of evil..
Other questions you have never addressed.
If DU is no more of a problem than Lead, why do they encase Toxic Waste Uranium eg. DU in Lead when it is being transported.
If it is not dangerous why is its disposal such an issue. Why do they not just dump it in a landfill.Thank You jsalsman, your info has always been accurate and to the point.
I recommend to anybody reading this thread to be sure and go back and review your posts
Definitive facts presented in a cool dispassioante manner, Thank You.
Posted by Eadora on Aug 30, 2005 at 12:12 PM U.S. MILITARY
Heads Roll At The Veterans Administration: Mushrooming Depleted Uranium (DU) Scandal Blamed
http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/printer_15334.shtml
January 24, 2005—The Preventive Psychiatry E-Newsletter today charged that the reason Veterans Affairs Secretary Anthony Principi stepped down earlier this month was the growing scandal surrounding the use of uranium munitions (DU) in the Iraq War.
Writing in the Preventive Psychiatry E-Newsletter # 169, Arthur N. Bernklau, Executive Director of the Veterans For Constitutional Law Center in New York, stated that “The real reason for Mr. Principi’s departure was really never given, however a special report published by eminent scientist Leuren Moret’s naming depleted uranium as the definitive cause of the ‘Gulf War Syndrome’ has fed a growing scandal about the continued use of uranium munitions by the US Military.”
Bernklau continued “This malady [from uranium munitions], that thousands of our military have suffered and died from, has finally been identified as the cause of this sickness, eliminating the guessing. The terrible truth is now being revealed.”
He added that “Out of the 580,400 soldiers who served in GW1, of them, 11,000 are now dead. By the year 2000, there were 325,000 on Permanent Medical Disability. This astounding number of “Disabled Vets” means that a decade later, 56% of those soldiers who served have some form of permanent medical problems. (Author’s note: The “Disabled” rate for the wars of the last century was 5%, and 10% in Viet Nam.)
Bernklau added “The VA Secretary (Principi) was aware of this fact as far back as 2000. He and the Bush administration have been hiding these facts, but now, thanks to Moret’s report, [it] ... is far too big to hide or to cover up!”
“Terry Jamison, Public Affairs Specialist, Office of the Deputy Assistant Secretary for Public Affairs, Department of Veterans Affairs, at the VA Central Office, recently reported that “Gulf Era Veterans” now on medical disability since 1991, numbers 518,739 Veterans,” said Berklau.
“The long-term effects have revealed that DU [uranium oxide] is a virtual death sentence,” stated Berklau. “Marion Fulk, a nuclear physical chemist, who retired from the Lawrence Livermore Nuclear Weapons Lab, and was also involved with the Manhattan Project, interprets the new and rapid malignancies in the soldiers (from the 2003 Iraq War) as ‘spectacular … and a matter of concern.’”
When asked if the main purpose for using it was for “destroying things and killing people,” Fulk was more specific: “I would say it is the perfect weapon for killing lots of people.”
Mr. Principi could not be reached for comment prior to deadline. A follow-up article will strive to obtain a response from Mr. Principi or from the VA.
Notes:
1. Depleted uranium: “Dirty bombs, dirty missiles, dirty bullets. A death sentence here and abroad.” by Leuren Moret.
http://www.sfbayview.com/081804/Depleteduranium081804.shtml
2. Veterans For Constitutional Law, Ltd, 112 Jefferson Avenue, Port Jeff. L.I. NY 11777. Arthur N. Bernklau, Executive Director. Tel: 516-474-4261, Fax 516-474-1968.
3. Preventive Psychiatry E-Newsletter. Email Gary Kohls at in Deluth
gkohls@cpinternet.com with “Subscribe” in the “Subject:” line.
Posted by Eadora on Aug 30, 2005 at 12:14 PM Hi ho,
I’m sorry,maybe it’s just me and a few others,but didn’t we learn from a century of history,beginning with Madame Curie who died from handling radium,that radioactive material is something not to toy with?Yet,what are we doing?Scattering all over Asia Minor in this ridiculous conflict!It’s funny.No it isn’t actually,that a substance we would want in our back yard is something we casually disseminate in Iraq.Of course it destroys armor well!Look at its molecular density!Yet are we also not smart enough monkeys to remember just how long uranium is radioactive?Please spare me the"depleted"part if our government won’t tell us the truth about sugar substitutes,what makes you think they’ll be honest about radioactive material?
A radiated country—one more reason for the Muslims to hate us for the next millenium.
Posted by wwoods on Aug 30, 2005 at 1:17 PM Typo.
“would want” should be “would’nt want”
Sorry,the phone rang.
Posted by wwoods on Aug 30, 2005 at 1:19 PM I’d like to address something else that Mauk referred to: whether or not the Iraqis were better off under Hussein or with their new “representative” government. You know what?
I could care less!
That’s right: I COULD CARE LESS. What I DO care about is THIS country, and we are definitely NOT better off. At the point of invasion, Iraq was hemmed in by no-fly zones, Hussein was relatively contained and there was little/no mischief from insurgents or terra-ists in Iraq. Any idiot laughed immediately at White House “speculation” that he was in league with Al Qaeda/bin Laden. As a secular tyrant, he had no use for Islam or anything else except when he could use the religion card (like in Gulf War !) to garner sympathy in the region. As a result, he and bin Laden were fundamentally different and definitely not buddies.
So, from my perspective, there was nothing there that translated into any kind of direct threat against the U.S. or our interests. At least nothing so pressing that it required us to bail on Afghanistan and leave the acknowledged master-mind of over 3,000 deaths on American soil at large.
Were the Iraqis suffering? Sure they were. Hussein and his vile brats were evil incarnate and their crimes and horrors were documented in many places.
But, while I can (and do!) sympathize with their plight, I have to ask how committing our military is serving our best interests. By any barometer, it didn’t. If you want to pull the lame humanitarian card - like Dubya did when his lies/deceit couldn’t be hidden any longer - then I would say fine, let’s go help the people out.
But it wouldn’t have been in Iraq, it would’ve been in Darfur, where the scale of slaughter and human suffering makes anything Hussein did almost quaint by comparison. We can’t be everywhere and everything to all people, not at the expense of our security. And yet that’s exactly what happened: we are so stretched with resources over there that we would be strapped if/when another crisis occurs. And just where is that bin Laden fella, by the way?
Back to the DU stuff: you can argue degree of severity all you want, certainly there’s no lack of opinions on either side. But the bottom line is that the shit is deadly, poisonous and like the in-laws from hell sticks around far longer than the initial visit.
And people wonder “why do they hate us…?”
Posted by g-love on Aug 30, 2005 at 3:01 PM Quote the “mauk2”
“I used a half hour today chasing down the cites of one of the fever denizens here, and they all had NO FACTS.”More of the same old smoke & mirrors.
You have had facts coming at you from numerous sources.
You have sickened and demented your own intellect to the point that your faculties refuse to perceive them.“jaslsman” wants us to speak nice to these guys but I ‘m am sorry, the only way to deal with a bare faced LIE is to call it a LIE, and the person who disseminated it, a LIAR.
There is no nice way to say things like that. If it’s taken personal so be it.
You are a True Believer in your WMD.which is what DU is. And like all true believes, when they are presented with FACTS that contradict their belief system they proceed to ignore the FACTS and PRAY a little harder or try to change the subject
It seems this time you have chosen the “change the subject” tactic.
Quote the “mauk2”
“Now, what about the Iraqi and Afghan people”I’m sure you care! That why you advocate dumping our radioactive toxic waste on their land.
I suppose they are having a Hell of a good time.
Their Infrastructure has been almost totally destroyed.
Most of their public assets have been privatized and given over into foreign hands.
They are in a state of constant anarchy, and civil war, while at the same time enduring a ruthless foreign occupation.
Their citizens are being murdered in their streets, by civil conflict, and trigger happy foreign troops. Not to mention punitive air raids on suspected insurgent strongholds neighborhoods.
Sky rocketing Cancer and Birth Defect rates.
Now, what about the Iraqi and Afghan people.Start your own thread somewhere and we’ll deal with it.
BUT THE SUBJECT OF THIS THREAD IS DEPLETED URANIUM.
STICK TO IT ! or is the fire getting to hot for your feet.
Please answer the questions put to you
Posted by Eadora on August 29, 2005 at 11:15 PM
And the many others put to you by the numerous other posters
You answer them with silent avoidance, disregard, or misinformation and obfuscation.Your nakedness is ugly.
Posted by Eadora on Aug 30, 2005 at 6:35 PM Let me chime in here one last time. (ok,maybe not the last time)
Obviously, both sides on this debate have agendas and basic political and ideological beliefs that are furthered or frustrated by the truth on DU.
I am new to this subject, although I have heard brief mention of it elsewhere in the past. I guess we have Cindy Sheehan and her “nuclear war” references to thank for bringing it more out in the open. Oh yes, and Mr. Lindorff, of course.
I’m on the vacillating side of the anywhere from 40% to 75% of the people, depending on the situation on the ground and the balance of reporting, that approve of our decision to invade Iraq. I’ve read several what SEEMED to me to be agenda-less reports that SEEMED to de-bunk the sometimes hysterical and sometimes frankly unbelievable claims coming from those who believe the use of DU to be extremely dangerous and prohibitive.
Maybe they aren’t as agenda-less as they appear. I honestly don’t know for sure, and would love for this issue to truly come out in the open so we could learn the best truth about is as possible. Obviously there are some risks, but are they justified in the context of war? One accurately placed bullet can spoil one’s whole day, too, and quite immediately, but bullets aren’t banned from the military, YET.
I would suggest petitioning reputable and fair investigative reporting media outlets, if you can find any, to take up this issue.
Like many other health and science issues, what we are led to believe by emotion and fear is often quite wrong. That can go for either side.
I appreciate jsalsman’s (James) polite and reasoned reply to my rather smart-ass questions, although I thought I did raise a valid point about believing reports emanating from Iraq during the 90’s. I don’t believe one could describe that regime and all they controlled as reliable sources of truth.
To those that insist on believing that Roger, mauk2, I and others are the same person, let me assure you, at least in MY case, that you are simply wrong. To draw conclusions from the timing of posts, for example, is far from “scientifically” adequate.
I could certainly make the same claims about you folks, but they would have no more validity or value. They would only serve to illustrate a certain paranoia, and a certain inability to argue my case on the scientific merits.
But then again, as I stated at the outset, I am not a scientist. I only pointed out that there can be much more than science involved in discerning the truth about DU.
There really shouldn’t be.
Posted by Natalie on Aug 30, 2005 at 9:04 PM Ah, finally, someone who isn’t convinced I’m somebody else and/or calling me names. :) You guys better stop that, I’m gonna start crying.
jsalsman sez: ““gaseous monomeric uranium trioxide is the principal species produced by the reaction of U3O8 with oxygen.” They indicate that this occurs at 1200 to 1800 Kelvin, which is well below the temperature at which uranium burns in air.”
Well, first, in DU rounds it’s metallic DU burning, but I see your point. (U3O8 is still present while the fire rages, some percentage of it would react further to the UO3 form.)
UO3 is, however, the least stable of the UO2, UO3, U3O8 family of compounds. As that gas cools from the 1200 kelvin temperature, it rapidly decomposes into UO2 or U3O8, depending on temperature.
http://www.webelements.com/webelements/compounds/text/U/O3U1-1344587.html
Note there is no “melting point” listed for UO3, it doesn’t have one. It changes directly to another form before it can melt. (I suppose it is POSSIBLE to supercool a uranium fire and get some signifcant formation of the UO3…)
The formative rarity of UO3 is strongly supported by the fact that we hardly ever SEE UO3 outside of uranium conversion facilities. It’s like iron filings, they very quickly turn to rust out in the weather. Investigators taking samples in DU-killed hulks found practically none of the stuff.
I will certainly note that there is probably a window of time directly after a target is blown to smithereens via DU penetrators when you could get a snootful of UO3, but then again, if a lead bullet had been used to do the blowing-up, you’d be getting a load of lead. If the .mil continues to use that utterly lethal tungsten-based liquid metal alloy I have little doubt it will get worse yet.
I will further note that hopping into a blazing hot wreck in a battlefield, likely stuffed full of high explosives and volatile fuel, is not without further risks far greater than the possibility of getting a whiff of DU vapor.
Assess the RELATIVE risk, and DU is no ogre. Yes, it is nasty stuff, but then again, so is everything else in a war zone.
That’s why it’s a war zone. :(
That said, I’ll prowl about, this is interesting. The (remote) possibility of getting bio-available U compounds from open air combustion bears some looking into, but the high density of most of these means that they will settle quickly.
UO2, as you note, can’t kill you easily at all. (15 milligrams is a LOT.) U3O8 is the same. Given that the VAST majority of oxidation compounds at ambient temps are those two compounds, ehn. Seems unlikely. The reaction energies just aren’t in favor of making any of the exotic compounds unless there’s something catalyzing the reaction or even more odd going on.
When your theory begins with, “First, you bend THIS rule of nature….” in my experience, it rarely pans out.
An interesting theory, though, and one certainly worth poking at a bit.
That does not change the fact, however, that the .mil has no replacement for DU. The stuff has unique properties they find highly attractive, and the replacement they came up with is horrific, to put it mildly.
Probably the best that would happen is they’d rename it, like they did with napalm. <shudder>
Posted by mauk2 on Aug 30, 2005 at 9:31 PM jsalsman sez: “Regarding your comment, “U238 is actually MORE radioactive than U235.” Actually, the reverse is true.”
Welllll…. :)
As it turns out, we’re both right.
The problem with discussing complex topics is that the darn things are complicated. :)
Seen as a combined whole, natural uranium gets 2.3 percent of it’s activity from U235, 48.8 percent from U238 and 48.9 percent from U234. So what I said was true. These figures come from the below link, which I also posted above:
http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/du_ii/du_ii_tabc.htm
So, the lowered radioactivity in DU vs Natural U is mainly due to the U234 reduction. The U235 has very little to do with it.
BUT, seen as discrete isotopes, then yes, the U238 has the lowest activity per gram of U238, the U235 has moderate activity per gram of U235 and U234 is just evil. So what you said is also true.
In the context of the discussion, I thought I was clear enough in what I meant, sorry, my bad. :(
“Regarding your comments, “why is the title of your article ‘RADIOACTIVE Wounds of War?’ You’re shilling for your target audience.” I feel ambivalent about this.”
I don’t.You clearly note that the huge majority of the issue with DU is CHEMICAL toxicity. Your fellow travelers on this issue do not, and instead build upon decades of lies, misinformation, and propaganda about the risks of radiation.
This is dishonest and wrong, and worse, damages the credibility of what is potentially the REAL issue, which IS the chemical toxicity of DU. While I seriously doubt it’s any worse than other heavy metals, Uranium is an actinide element, and has quite complex electron shells. The chemistry COULD be different, but as long as the frothing denizens of the fever swamp insist on spewing mindless FUD, the issue remains clouded.
Their ideologically driven hysteria serves no good purpose, and hampers investigations into any real issues.
So, no, I am not ambivalent whatsoever. The author of the article in question wrote this piece with an agenda in mind, an act which in my mind damages his credibility.
Posted by mauk2 on Aug 30, 2005 at 11:42 PM From a Guardian article discussing the work of Alexandra Miller at the Armed Forces Radiobiology Research Institute in Bethesda, Maryland
When the dust settlesDepleted uranium may be far more dangerous than previously thought
and we could be dealing with the fallout for many generations.The small change betrays a big leap in understanding the threat posed by depleted uranium. Evidence is building that DU causes more genetic damage than scientists suspected - even at levels deemed so low as to be non-toxic.
Depleted uranium shells are designed to be lethal: the metal is so dense it can crash through the heavy armour of a modern battle tank. But those who escape the intended effect face other risks. When the depleted uranium rod inside an armour-piercing shell disintegrates, it showers toxic and weakly radioactive dust and fragments over a wide area.
It is not just soldiers who risk exposure. In Iraq, land where people once lived, and will doubtless return to, is now littered with the stuff. In 1991, armour-piercing shells containing around 340 tonnes of DU were fired at targets too tough to take out with standard shells. Hundreds more tonnes have been added to that during the past four weeks. People returning to places where the shells were used breathe in the dust as it is churned up by wind and traffic. The metal can also seep into water supplies, contaminating them for years.
Alexandra Miller at the Armed Forces Radiobiology Research Institute in Bethesda, Maryland, is due to complete an investigation into DU for the US department of defence next year. Already she has some insight into the damage it can do. Last year she showed that depleted uranium from pellets implanted in rats dispersed all over the animals’ bodies, turning up in bones, muscles, kidneys and liver. Rats breeding six months later had fewer offspring than normal.Her latest study reveals something even more unusual. When human bone cells are exposed to DU, some suffer immediate genetic damage. The type of damage varies but often fragments break off chromosomes, the strings of genes in almost every cell, and form tiny rings of genetic material. This much was expected. But as other cells evidently undamaged by the depleted uranium started to divide, creating new cells, Miller noticed the genes in some of these new cells were damaged. More than a month after the DU was removed, new cells were forming with broken chromosomes or other genetic damage. The DU was having a delayed effect.
More intriguing still is Miller’s latest suspicion that DU punches above its weight in terms of the damage it does to genes. She knew that depleted uranium could damage genes not only by emitting radiation, but by its chemical make up - like nickel, it can switch on cancer genes by its sheer toxicity. But she found that tiny amounts of DU, too small to be toxic and only mildly radioactive, cause more genetic damage in cells than either the toxicity or radiation could explain. Her latest results suggest that the toxicity and radioactivity of DU reinforce one another, causing more damage than the two just added together. It’s no small difference either. “You can get more than an eight-fold greater effect than you’d expect,” she says. In other words, more than eight times as many cells suffer genetic damage than predicted. Without taking the effect into account, the health risk of DU could be grossly underestimated.
“People have always assumed low doses are not much of a problem, but they can cause more damage than people think,” says Miller
… . “None of these studies has yet impacted on the regulations.” …………And On & ON
——————————
When you put this together with the ridiculous rated of disability among “Dersert Storm Vets, [Posted by Eadora on August 30, 2005 at 7:14 AM]
It does not take an overwrought imagination, or a rocket scientist to come up with a
1+1+2 equation.
Posted by Eadora on Aug 31, 2005 at 12:31 AM Here is another Study discussed in a Guardian article
One person who is convinced DU-induced genetic damage causes real health problems is Albrecht Schott, a biochemist who recently retired from the Free University of Berlin. The day before the start of this Gulf war, he published a study carried out with scientists at the University of Bremen.
The study, the first of its kind, looked at genetic damage in the white blood cells of 16 former soldiers who believed they had been exposed to DU in the 1991 Gulf war or in the Balkans. They found that damage to chromosomes in the white blood cells was on average five-and-a-half times higher in the veterans than the rest of the population.
Kenny Duncan, one of the soldiers tested, was 21 when he served with the Royal Corps of Transport, helping to shift Iraqi tanks destroyed by DU shells in the 1991 Gulf war. He believes his exposure to DU has left his family with a painful legacy. His eight-year-old son suffers constant headaches and has deformed ears and toes. His two other children also have deformed toes and both suffer bowel and bladder problems. One is also partially deaf.
The reason is likely to be down to DU, says Schott. “The high levels of genetic damage we observed do not occur naturally. I believe alpha radiation from DU to be the cause of these chromosome aberrations.
“Uranium molecules in the blood can travel to every part of the body, including the areas where sperm and eggs are. This, and the presence of chromosome aberrations, increases the probability of cancer and other genetic conditions significantly. They lead to a higher probability of genetic damage in the person’s babies and then damage can be passed on to the children’s children.”
———————Please answer the questions put to you
Posted by Eadora on August 29, 2005 at 11:15 PMThey are not technical they are moral questions. As apologists you should have no trouble answering them.
Oh and while your at it tell us why we can’t push this crap into landfill.
A simple question given your premise, yet one which you stubbornly refuse to address.
Posted by Eadora on Aug 31, 2005 at 12:52 AM Piss off Natalie. There is a lot more than timings showing who you are. The timings and tandem commenting are so obvious you must be getting desperate. Everything you say has the ring of falseness about it. If you had an open mind then you should long since have made it up. Not a single point has been established by the Colonel in his many guises. The issue of DU was not ever in doubt, hell my fourteen year old son even couldn’t believe anybody was questioning the dangers of Nuclear Waste. Lets start calling it by it’s real name people. Obviously the Shills are trying to avoid this fact among others. Now my 14 yo son attends university twice a week after school for an advanced chemistry course, he has a few clues unlike RogerNatalieMauk2. You have played the smoke and mirrors, spread the government line and in every way demonstrated that “you” have an agenda.
You’ve played the time honoured game of the mentally challenged by calling everybody else whatever they call you. You are not only coming across as a committed SHILL you have completely surrendered any claim to honour, reason or even average intelligence.
Now we have an agenda, all of us agree with the vast majority of the world’s citizens that DU weapons are and should be banned. Unlike you however, we are all obviously different people, with real minds and we are arguing independantly and have raised a number of issues which you are totally avoiding. Now if you really were two or three different people, it would seem likely that one of you would have made an attempt to answer my or Eadora’s simple questions. You havn’t, which suggests again that you are one and the same.
If indeed you are two people then the fact that this is not apparent is further proof of the very limited number of people who could try and sell such a load of blatant lies.
Natalie, you are not a female. If you think your act is in anyway female then you have obviously not known too many. Furthermore you are not open minded. You have so obviously got an agenda, do you honestly think anyone has bought your crap, why not ask who believes you? You are spouting the same smoke and mirrors tactics as well and linking to the same discredited info. SHILL baby!
Colonel go back to Roger Ramjet, at least it was more honest. mauk2 gives me an image of a scruffy, dirty seagull. We others share only our humanity and while we may share more or less of our personal ideologies with each other we don’t have to agree on everything to agree on the one thing that all educated sane people around the world know. Nuclear Waste is dangerous as Radioactive and chemical and it is even more dangerous when you use it for bombs and bullets. Stop blathering on about how dangerous war and armies are. The radiation will outlast all this races remaining years on this planet. The war may end but the death and destruction will go on long after dirty little apologists for war crimes like you are dead.
Now you are a real bozo. Since you refuse to answer my query about why Nuclear Waste was always considered to be such a disposal problem I shall have to try and guess what you would say. Its a conspiracy isn’t it BOZO, the medical associations, universities and scientists as well as the governments of most countries are all involved in a conspiracy to deprive the most powerful military nation of a useful weapon. Even a more humane one you would have us believe. Meanwhile a small band of scientists in the pay of the DU pushers is bravely fighting to bring the truth out to the world. You are a conspiracy theorist then. Fair enough, everybody else has been wrong and the USA military is the only one telling the truth, sounds reasonable. (to you maybe)
continued…
Posted by Rabbitvoz on Aug 31, 2005 at 12:56 AM How about the fact that DU is banned as a chemical and nuclear weapon? Since the USA and Britain have deployed the stuff they have ceased to be counted among the civilized nations.
Let’s face it Bozo Shill you have been given a shit of an assignment.
“Go out and convince people that nuclear waste is no more dangerous than lead if you make boms and bullets out of it”
Seems like a tall order to me in 2005.
You have not convinced anybody of anything except that you are a military Shill. You were shown to be a liar and shill from the start of this thread and yet still you soldier desperately on. Tell us Bozo do you have any answer to the fact of DU being a banned weapon of mass destruction. Nobody is interested in your smoke and mirrors, we don’t need you to try and explain the chemistry of something you don’t even understand yourself. We already know about Nuclear waste, hell even my children wanted to know who would believe such lies when I showed them your posts.
Since you love Nuclear Waste so much I sincerely hope you are suited up in it one day. I hope you will put your money where your mouth is and start a nuclear waste disposal dump on your property. Do you realise how rich you could become? Do you know how much people are prepared to pay someone else to dispose of this stuff? Since it’s so safe you should be able to bury a few tons in your backyard and make lots of money. Or is it only safe when made into bombs and bullets then blown all over the place? Please explain oh great one of knowledge. Tell us poor deluded fools the “real” truth that our governments have been withholding from us. Tell us how nuclear waste has been unfairly vilified and is really not much more dangerous than Blue vein cheese, if you spread it on wholemeal bread.
Remember Colonel, 36 percent support and falling fast. How long before you’ll be standing in the dock as a war criminal?
Posted by Rabbitvoz on Aug 31, 2005 at 1:47 AM From the Military Toxics Project:
DU has been processed and tested at dozens of locations throughout the U.S., creating extensive contamination.
- The National Lead Industries factory in Colonie, NY, closed in 1980 after DU particles were found 26 miles away and DU levels in soil were 500 times higher than neighboring areas. (Len Dietz, 1996)
- The Starmet plant in Concord, MA dumped 400,000 pound of DU and other toxic substances into an unlined pit over twenty-five years. DU contaminated soil and groundwater, and is moving toward drinking water supplies. (Citizens Research and Environmental Watch, Concord, MA)
- The former Jefferson Proving Ground in Madison, IN contains over 150,000 pounds of DU shells and fragments. The U.S. Army wants to walk away from the contamination without performing any cleanup or ongoing environmental monitoring. (U.S. Army & Nuclear Regulatory Commission)
Health and Environmental Damage
When a DU shell hits a hard target such as a tank or building, it burns and produces a tiny ceramic dust that can be inhaled. These particles can remain in the environment for many years, travel for miles on air currents, re-suspend into the air when disturbed, and migrate into soil and groundwater. DU particles that are ingested or inhaled can lodge in the lungs, bones, kidneys, and reproductive organs and cause damage through radiation and toxic properties. Studies have linked DU exposure with damage to the kidneys; immune, nervous, respiratory, and reproductive systems; cancer; and genetic mutations.
Research over the past decade has produced increasing evidence that DU can harm humans.
- DU has been found in the urine of Gulf War veterans and Iraqi civilians eight years after exposure. (Rosalie Bertell, Ph.D, GNSH, Gulf War Illness Conference, 1999)- Animal studies found that DU lodges in high concentrations in a variety of organs; causes changes to the brain; crosses the placenta to the fetus; and is associated with mutations. (U.S. Armed Forces Radiobiology Institute)
- A recent U.S. military study found that DU damages the chromosomes that carry human genes. (U.S. Armed Forces Radiobiology Institute)- Radioactive and toxic properties of DU appear to reinforce each other, causing more extensive damage than the properties would separately. “You can get more than an eight-fold greater effect that you’d expect,” says DoD scientist Alexandra Miller. (The Guardian, April 17, 2003)
DU remains in the environment for many years after testing or combat use and can reach humans through a variety of pathways, including soil, air, drinking water, and food.
- At the former Jefferson Proving Ground in Indiana, DU has entered the food chain and been found in deer, clams, and fish. (Lockheed Analytical Services)- DU was found in Kosovo over two years after its use there. Researchers found localized DU contamination at 10,000 times normal, found DU contaminated with plutonium, and found evidence of airborne movement of DU dust. (United Nations Environment Programme)
- Investigators found widespread DU contamination in soil, air, and lichen in Serbia and Montenegro over two years after the conflict there. (United Nations Environment Programme)
- DU remains in Bosnia and Herzegovina over seven years after its use. Particles were found suspended in the air inside buildings and in drinking water. (United Nations Environment Programme)
Posted by Eadora on Aug 31, 2005 at 2:22 AM Yoh Natalie
I apologize if I have seemed over zealous. But there have been a lot of “Scientific Facts” thrown your way. We have been around the carousel a couple of times.
As the Rabbit sez “If you had an open mind then you should long since have made it up”
But I will give you the benefit of the doubt and apologize to you. And see how things go.
So Again back to the issue: Quoting Natalie
“But then again, as I stated at the outset, I am not a scientist. I only pointed out that there can be much more than science involved in discerning the truth about DU”
Please review some of the science and facts already offered.
And
“I would suggest petitioning reputable and fair investigative reporting media outlets, if you can find any, to take up this issue.”
Excellent suggestions, I wonder why the issue is not covered as much as it should be.
It would seem the EU does not have that problem the have outted the stuff as WMD and War Crime.
Perhaps we don’t hear about it as much because of massive media and Gov cover up.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~stgvisie/VISIE/cancerous-web.html
I wonder if Alexandra Miller still has a job?
———————Now Please review
Understand the lie, misrepresentation and deception perpetrated by US Defense upon “The Royal Societies” stand on this issue
Posted by Eadora on August 28, 2005 at 9:30 AMReview some of the numerous and excellent citations and information offered by jsalsman, dlindorff, johnmccarthy. Etc. All dissed and rejected out of hand.
See how “Roger Helbig” aka. “Roger Ramjet”, Major, Colonel, whatever, falls out of the bag of snakes.
A person with more than simple vested interest, his job probably depends on his performance here.Understand the Vet Disability statistics.
Try the Conference Resolutions From The World DU & Uranium Weapons Conference.
Hell! do your own research.And answer this one burning question. That remains untouched by any of you Apologists.
Who would want to justify and rationalize the dumping of our Toxic Radioactive Waste upon a foreign land and a sovereign people.
Why can’t we dump it in our backyards?
That action alone Under existing International Law constitutes War Crime.
Answer as to the Simple Morality of that.But the scofflaws in Washington and the shill like Roger have no problem dealing with such trivialities.
they demand and get, media silence and compliance,
And they continue to act in their usual arrogant unilateral manner.Answer as to the Simple Morality of that.
Posted by Eadora on Aug 31, 2005 at 2:32 AM How about it open minded all American Girl? You have all the tools necessary to make up your mind, so do it Natalie. If you really do want the truth, do as Eadora asks and then when you are ready to rejoin the human race, just say so and Rabbit will be the sweetest little bunny he can be in apologising, he is at heart a very loving Rabbit. Actually Rabbit would be pleased if you not the Colonel, the thought of Lt Col Roger Helbig in a dress really does disturb Rabbit a bit. Too weird.
Posted by Rabbitvoz on Aug 31, 2005 at 3:14 AM For anybody who wants to read a bit about LTC Roger Helbig.
http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_16798.shtml
If the shoe fits, wear it!
By the way Helbig, Rabbit shall make it a point to seek you out wherever you go on the net and that won’t be hard. Knows he does where you’ll be.
Please eat some Nuclear Waste for Rabbit. If you eat a gram of DU, Rabbit will too. Come on Colonel, maybe you have children you’d rather give it too?
Posted by Rabbitvoz on Aug 31, 2005 at 4:49 AM I’m gonna make this quick and you can agree or disagree but when lives are in the balance LOOKING and INSPECTING and THINKING FOR ONESELF is a good idea.
The emergency workers at Ground Zero in NYC were exposed to toxins that have never been tested, etc. before because the metals, etc became a fine dust and went right through the skin and into the organs, fatty tissues, etc. and they were causing illnesses especially respiratory problems, sleeplessness, and much worse.
The solution? The Detox Center where the PURIFICATION Rundown is delivered under a doctor’s care.
This is the only workable solution thus far for getting toxins which includes radiation, out of the body. It combines exercise, a vitamin regimen which includes NIACIN and hours sweating in a sauna.
Go to google and type in NEW YORK RESCUE WORKERS DETOXIFICATION PROJECT. By the way, this was the same program used on people in Russia after Chernobyl.
Good Luck!
Songbd
Posted by songbd on Aug 31, 2005 at 6:02 AM Just a thought, has anyone ever tested the WTC sites for radiation? Bearing in mind the talk that the bomb that went off in the basement was a micro nuke and the incredibly high temperatures underground days later. Rabbit never really believed these were nukes but still has an open mind on it.
Rabbit knows this wasn’t the point of your thoughtful contribution songbd, it just occurred to me now.
Rabbit hops away, nose twitching with curiosity and his ears erect and forward facing. Googling into the sunset.
Posted by Rabbitvoz on Aug 31, 2005 at 6:18 AM Dear Rabbit;
My intention is to point the soldiers who are worried and already have radiation poisoning symptoms toward a workable program to detox their bodies before cancers set in.Ever seen the worry on the face of a formerly strong and athletic young man or woman concerned that they will die before they marry or before their children graduate grammar school? Because I have.
I’m talking about helping to save lives by relaying important information.
When the clock is ticking and your body is deteriorating at a rapid rate, you should have a chance to reverse this situation as rapidly as possible. And from what the soldier whose daughter has 2 fingers on her right hand said, he’s still in physical danger and the gover-ment ain’t interested in owning up to the truth about radiation exposure amongst our patriotic men and women.
That’s all.
Posted by songbd on Aug 31, 2005 at 6:53 AM m_astera here again.
I’ve been out of town for a few days, but I see that the argument has been in good hands.
Eadora posted above that as of January of 2004, 518,000 of 580,000 Gulf War I vets were on medical disability. So 90% of our soldiers are disabled from that one. Cui bono? (who benefits?)
As I write this, the Southern States have been severely damaged by Hurricane Katrina; New Orleans is largely under water with bodies floating in the streets. Meanwhile, over 4,000 Lousiana Nat’l Guard troops and most of their equipment are in Iraq, and unavailable to help out in this domestic disaster. Cui bono?
Citizens who sought shelter at the Superdome were not welcomed, but were subject to humiliating searches for “weapons or alcohol”, enduring waits of up to four hours outside in hurricane weather. Cui bono?
When these Nat’l Guard and Regular Military soldiers return to the US, (those who do return), we can reasonably expect another 90% disability rate over the next dozen years, so they’re pretty much out of the picture, even those who wise up to how they were used. If they wanted to seriously petition for redress of their grievances, as in throw the lying rotten bastards out of government, they would be physically unfit to do so. Who would replace them? Their genetically damaged and deformed children? Cui bono?
Since 9/11, the “terrorist threat” that has been waved at us to induce fear has been that the “terrorists” would explode a “dirty bomb” in one of our major cities, a dirty bomb consisting of conventional explosives laced with radioactive material, e.g. DU. So, we are being threatened with exactly what our government and military are doing to the Iraqis and Afghanis.
During the wars of conquest against the Native Peoples of what is now the US, most of the Native Peoples’ strongest, best and bravest men were killed, the beauties among their women were raped and bore half-breed children, effectively taking them out of the gene pool and effectively negating any threat from future generations. The weak, the sickly, the cowards, and the traitors survived, along with those too old to fight or reproduce. Cui bono?
In reply to my question about how discussing the dangers of DU endangered American lives, Roger siad that it would encourage suicide bombers, and then said:
“If I thought that another country had deliberately spread a terrible poison on my country, I would give my life to fight that other country.”
Roger, the government of this country, and those who control them, have deliberately poisoned two generations of American soldiers. effectively removing them and their offspring as a potential threat. Cui bono?
You, sir, I call a pantleg-humping, bootlicking traitor to the United States of America. If you should ever awake to the outrage that you are helpng perpetrate, I suggest that the proper target of your suicide bombing would be yourself.
Posted by m_astera on Aug 31, 2005 at 7:03 AM As an addendum to what songbd posted above on detoxing, the herb cilantro (coriander) has been shown to be a very efficient heavy metal chelator—it binds to heavy metals and eliminates them through the kidneys.
Posted by m_astera on Aug 31, 2005 at 7:27 AM Actually this is a good outcome, this thread has started to attract a lot of attention thanks to LTC Roger Helbig and helper. Rabbit said you are entertaining and best of all without you this site would mostly just be people agreeing with each other on an issue such as this. You’ve given us the opportunity to polish off the military lies and expose the tactics. At the same time performing such fantastic contortions and moves that the lesson in “Military Intelligence” has in itself been edifying.
Expect lots of links to this thread over time.
Anyway rabbit just thought of a very good addition to the list of “treatments” suggested for those exposed to the vile Nuclear waste. Not sure of the spelling “KAMBUCHA”. It is a fungus and is used to produce a fermented tea drink which has awesome cleansing and detoxifying effects. It is so effective that if high level of poisoning it must be used very sparingly at first as so much of toxins can be shifted at once that the patient can die of poisoning directly from organ failure.
Posted by Rabbitvoz on Aug 31, 2005 at 8:27 AM Hey songbd hope you didn’t misunderstand me, as Rabbit said he knows that his digression had nothing to do with your message which Rabbit is completely in tune with. Actually missus Rabbit is highly qualified reflexologist and whole Rabbit family very natural healthy. We know and have known people in situation you describe too many times, but find all too often you can lead a horse to water but….
Here is url to some Kambucha info and Rabbit highly recommends any concerned about their exposure to DU or other toxins, take note of the valid tips in this last few posts since songbd.
http://w3.trib.com/~kombu/
Posted by Rabbitvoz on Aug 31, 2005 at 8:47 AM The author of the article is a complete joke. To ANYONE who has served in the military (something most of your liberals have not done) we know several of his claims are completely False.
1) As NCO in the military I had two additional duties. Unit Armorer (I fixed the units weapons) and Ammo Handler. We do NOT use DU rounds in our personal weapons, not gonna happen, just a wishful fantasy on teh authors part.
2) The soldier who claimed that he was not told the dangers was lying, doesn’t exist, or was not paying attention. Every year the Army has what is called Common Task Training (CTT). they are abotu 12-20 core tasks that EVERY soldier in the Army must complete depending on rank. I know for a fact that DU training was given several time especially in 1998. I remember commenting to myself when would I ever run into tanks damaged by DU. I also know I trained this CTT task to my soldiersand I was NOT in a line unit.
I just ask they many of you people quit spreading lies about they military especially when you have never served or if you belive what you see on TV. I bet many of you think that “Over There” is realistic depiction the war huh?
Posted by sacase on Aug 31, 2005 at 4:47 PM Military SHILLS know you not that you are not arguing the other side to a debate. Their isn’t any debate about the hazards of Nuclear Waste, wishful thinking won’t get you there and no amount of smoke and mirrors will change anything. People are stupid on the whole but just not that stupid. You are proving however that there is no end to military stupidity, not only are you not changing any one’s mind you are handing us the tools to awaken vaste numbers more people to the truth on many issues. This campaign to make Nuclear Waste Sexy is going to turn out to be the biggest tactical mistake you’ve made in the propaganda war. Can you not hear the distant thunder? That is the sound of the world waking up to your deceit.
Now why don’t you SHILLS prove you support your own fellow troops, stop trying to justify poisoning them and and demand instead that
“United States Department of Defense officials provide medical care to all DU casualties and clean up all environmental contamination as required by AR 700-48 and TB 9-1300-278; and, that medical care is provided to all DU casualties as required by Lt General Ron Peake’s April 29, 2004 order.”
Do you support your troops? Of course you don’t, you prove it by whoring yourselves for lies that nobody is ever going to believe for longer than it takes someone else to remind them what exactly “Depleted Uranium” is.
Now Sargeant Sad Case, what say you eat some DU for Rabbit. He made the offer before and he extends it to yourself, eat a gram of DU and Rabbit will to. But you first.
Posted by Rabbitvoz on Sep 1, 2005 at 11:52 AM Thank you for the correction on Johnston Atoll. There is, however, more to the story. While there in 1977-78 and several times after that for a week at a time, there was no clean-up going on of the plutonium. Those of us on the island before the clean-up began breathed in the plutonium fall out on a daily basis. Your lovely story about the clean-up didn’t really clean the island as, by your own refenced articles, The full clean-up didn’t begin until the 80’s. By that time several hundred soldiers, airmen, coast guard personnel, and civilans had been exposed. How do you propose that our Country assist the exposed or will you gloss over that? Plutonim or Uranium exposure to that deadly stuff is still deadly and it has affected several hundreds of people civilian and service members. I’m glad some of these articles are now coming out. It explains the death of several fellow JIers.
Posted by michaelvet on Sep 2, 2005 at 2:49 AM Michael read especially the posts on treatment kindly started by songbd a dozen posts since and good luck. Michaelvet take the time to read though the thread, since you obviously don’t need to be told DU is ugly you can skip the links. Just have a look at how much the military cares about you as evidenced by the military Nuclear Shill, LTC Roger Helbig and his mate the sarge.
Come on SACASE, tell Michael he’s full of crap. Tell him he is a traitor, and tell him that DU, Nuclear waste, is no more radiocative or generally dangerous than lead.
CHOKE! CHOKE! Heh the word is out SHILLS, you are about to get a wider audience here.
LTC Roger Helbig, are you getting a special citation for a job well done here? Bet your masters love you right now. But don’t blame yourself, you never had a chance from the start. It is too late to make Nuclear waste seem sexy. It is also too late for you to scuttle from the sinking ship. You are going down with it!
Glub, Glub!
Posted by Rabbitvoz on Sep 2, 2005 at 4:17 AM Hey rabbit dung .. if I have masters, then tell them I need a pay check! But then accuracy never was particularly important to you and I see that you still lack the cojones to write me direct and identify yourself and who funds you.
r*h*e*l*b*i*g@c#a#l#i#f#o#r#n#i#a-spelledoutinfull.com —I think that they have pretty good spam protection ..
Posted by Ramjet on Sep 2, 2005 at 6:26 AM Rabbit Dung,
Since you seem to like Rokke and Nichol’s fiction, I guess you want to be party to a libel suit.
Rokke is a civilian, so am I .. we both are retired reservists. He pushes his Doctorate .. but never tells you that his having a Phd gives him any real knowledge about the subject. I am not even sure that he is a retired reservist. I have requested a copy of his military records.
There will be no war crime trial because there is no war crime and debating some @#$$%hole like you on the internet is not exactly a crime. You just abuse your free speech when you falsely malign someone and that is what your have done. You have my e-mail address .. write me so that I can actually find you! I gather that you still don’t have the cojones to correspond directly.
Posted by Ramjet on Sep 2, 2005 at 7:43 AM I sent the following to Axis of Logic on 4/17/05 .. they made minor changes to this false article .. the truth matters very little to them. Unfortunately, bold text also does not come through in this comment block.
As noted in the bold text embedded within, the following article on the Axisoflogic.com web site which has been widely disseminated throughout the internet in the past week is false and slanderous and should be retracted.
Air Force Colonel Abuses American Citizens over Uranium Weapons Coverup
By Dr. Doug Rokke, US Army, Ret., and Bob Nichols, Project Censored Award Winner
Apr 12, 2005, 07:42“Individuals on web sites throughout the United States have complained over a period of months about the abusive and aggressive actions of an Air Force Lieut. Colonel named Roger Helbig,” stated Project Censored Award Winning writer Bob Nichols.
“Col. Helbig has consistently misrepresented himself and his participation, voluntarily or on a paid basis, as a “minder” or enforcer for the DOD lie about Uranium Munitions in direct contravention of US Army Regulations and Orders,” Nichols stated.
Nichols is a liar. Plain and simple. I have never misrepresented myself, but I apparently have had an impact on Nichols, Rokke and Leuren Moret, all of whom have made a career out of misrepresenting themselves and the degree to which the use of depleted uranium armor penetrators as “tank killers” represents a long term threat to people and the environment. I got into this because they claim it is genocidal and it is not; they claim that a memo written in 1943 refers to depleted uranium when it does not. I got into this because I have some knowledge of radioactive materials gained from taking a class in 1973 at Lowry AFB with field work at Rocky Mountain Arsenal, from leading a detection and decontamination team for two years, from being a reservist with the Alameda County Office of Civil Defense and from working closely with nuclear engineers in the decontamination and closure of a nuclear shipyard. I know enough to know that depleted uranium is not a nuclear weapon. They do not want anyone else to know that and since I have signed a number of my messages with my retired reserve rank they have decided that I am a paid “enforcer”. They have no proof because I am not part of anything. I am just me, and when I see lies I feel an obligation to see that they are exposed. The only payment I currently receive from anyone is my small retirement check from being a civil servant for 21 years and having survived three base closures long enough to make it past age 50 and 20 years of Federal Civil Service; I receive no monies from the Air Force or the Department of Defense since I am not yet 60 years old and reserve retirees do not draw retirement pay under that age.
“Col. Helbig apparently is fervently following the Secret Los Alamos Memo about Uranium Weapons (UW), aka so-called “Depleted Uranium,” instructing personnel to lie about Uranium Weapons to maintain the political viability of continued use of the Genocidal Weapons: “weaponized radioactive and poisonous ceramic uranium oxide gas and dust” in Iraq and throughout Central Asia,” added Nichols.
Nichols stated “Dr. Doug Rokke, Ph.D., is the former Army Officer in charge of the Pentagon’s Depleted Uranium Project. Dr Rokke is a career officer, loyal to the Constitution of the United States of America, not to any political party. He is the man the people of the United States can turn to for “on the level information” about the true nature of Uranium Weapons (UW.)
Posted by Ramjet on Sep 2, 2005 at 8:13 AM Previous demand for retraction (cont)
Rokke never was in charge of the Pentagon’s depleted uranium project, but it is important for him and Nichols to make people believe that because no one would attend Rokke’s lectures or join their movement if he revealed just how low down the totem pole Army Reserve Lieutenant Rokke was in Kuwait after the Gulf War. The Special Assistant for Deployment Health, Department of Defense described Rokke’s claims and role as follows in response to an e-mail inquiry from me:
We can offer some accurate information to correct the record. Rokke is a private citizen and does not represent the Department of Defense. Following the ground war, Rokke was
attached for duty to assist technical experts in the recovery and decontamination of radioactive material and equipment. The
team of approximately 10 people was led, not by Rokke, but by a civilian from the Army Munitions and Chemical Command (AMCCOM). Rokke’s primary role was to facilitate the recovery operations by ensuring the team had the proper support. Over the past years, Doug Rokke has reported varying numbers of ill or dead members of “his team.” These claims have been researched and are unsubstantiated.In 1998, our office compiled a list of 29 names of people Rokke reported to be on “his team.” Staff members were able to interview 22 of them. Approximately 15 of the 29 people Doug Rokke had identified as being on “his team” actually worked on DU-contaminated vehicles. Two of the 29 had died, however, in
interviews with the others, neither of these two veterans was named as having worked with depleted uranium.While we respect Rokke’s right to express his opinions, the fact that he presents himself as an expert, does not make it so. His role in the Gulf War and at the Chemical School, as well as the specifics of his educational background, do not qualify him as a depleted uranium expert. These areas fall well outside of his area of expertise and responsibility.
Dr. Rokke commented, “LTC Roger Helbig, United States Air Force: I would suggest that since you claim to be so knowledgeable about DU and my specific activities during Gulf War 1 and while I was the Director of the U.S. Army Depleted Uranium that you produce the actual official documents, not some comments by Bob Cherry or Ed Battle or Mike Kilpatrick, your bosses up the line, verifying your comments.”I have no bosses up the line. I do not know Bob Cherry, Ed Battle or Mike Kilpatrick. Suggest that Rokke provide his Standard Form 180, the one the Swift Boat Liars demanded of John Kerry, to show what exactly he did while he was in uniform. He is the one who needs to provide actual documentation. He is the one who has made himself something more than what he really did. (Since April, thanks to my digging deeper into Rokke, I have been in close e-mail contact with retired Col Bob Cherry, Phd in Physics and Certified Health Physicist (CHP), former Army Radiation Safety Officer, but at the time that Nichols slandered me, I had not even heard of him let alone knew him by e-mail or otherwise)
Posted by Ramjet on Sep 2, 2005 at 8:21 AM Demand for Retraction from Axis of Logic dated 4/17/05 (cont)
Rokke added “Unless you can do so, please cease and go away. But before you go away you still have not answered; why you, as an United States Air Force officer, refuse to support my / our actions to ensure that United States Department of Defense officials provide medical care to all DU casualties and clean up all environmental contamination as required by AR 700-48 and TB 9-1300-278; and, that medical care is provided to all DU casualties as required by Lt General Ron Peake’s April 29, 2004 order.”
I really don’t know whether the Army is or is not complying with these regulations. However, given the way Rokke, Nichols and Meuret bully anyone who disagrees with them, such as their portrayal of DU as the new Zyklon B, I suspect that the Army actually is complying, just like the Department of Veterans Affairs is collecting detailed information about DU exposure from claimants. I suspect it is just another red herring.
Dr. Rokke concluded “It is time for you to decide. The question is not about me, but whether or not United States Department of Defense personnel comply with their own requirements to provide medical care and clean up all environmental contamination as specified in AR 700-48, TB 9-1300-278, and all of the orders mandating medical care for DU casualties.”
The question very much is about him. He pushes the fact that he has a Phd, but he never really tells anyone that his Phd is in education and that the studies and research leading up to the doctorate had absolutely nothing to do with depleted uranium, nuclear materials or health physics, the areas in which he now claims to be the pre-eminent expert.
Posted by Ramjet on Sep 2, 2005 at 8:22 AM Sheesh, you guys! Please stop bitching at each other.
mauk2 wrote: “UO3 is, however, the least stable of the UO2, UO3, U3O8 family of compounds. As that gas cools from the 1200 kelvin temperature, it rapidly decomposes into UO2 or U3O8, depending on temperature.”
On the contrary, UO3 is stable and plates out (precipitates as a film) and has been detected as such by B. Salbu, et al., “Oxidation states of uranium in depleted uranium particles from Kuwait,” Journal of Environmental Radioactivity, vol. 78 (2005) pp. 125–135:
http://www.bovik.org/du/Salbu-uranyl-detected.pdfThat was actually the first time that UO3 has been reported detected—the Army has multiple documents saying that the expected it but didn’t find any (in both soil and as a combustion product.) They didn’t know about the gas vapor thing. If you measure the tangible dust, you get 75% U3O8 and 25% UO2. According to the U-O state diagram in the Gmelin Handbook, the actual product result is supposed to be about 20% UO2, 60% U3O8, and 20% UO3. It is unclear to me whether that much UO3 is actually produced, but it would explain a lot.
mauk2 wrote: “The formative rarity of UO3 is strongly supported by the fact that we hardly
ever SEE UO3 outside of uranium conversion facilities.”That is just not true. About 3% of naturally occuring uranium in ore and crystals are various hydrates and oxides of the hexavalent uranyl ion. Natural UO3 crystals have five different crystalization phases, eash with different color and density, but by far the most common are the schoepite hydrates. The schoepite minerals are hydrates of uranyl oxides; essentially hydrated UO3 crystals:
http://webmineral.com/data/Schoepite.shtml
http://webmineral.com/data/Metaschoepite.shtmlThe Pueblo native americans in the four-corners area apparently used ground schoepite crystals as body paints. There is some arcaelogical evidence that they knew not to ingest or use the schoepite in foods because of they way they were stored: the stone-age version of child-proof containers, on high ledges, away from food preparation areas. Other painting substances were not stored so carefully.
“UO2, as you note, can’t kill you easily at all. (15 milligrams is a LOT.)”
In fact, the suicide attempt was with 15 GRAMS of uranium(IV) acetate, ingested. The dialysis was only for two weeks, by the way; not six months as I claimed earlier: Pavlakis, et al., “Deliberate overdose of uranium: toxicity and treatment,” Nephron., vol. 72, no. 2 (1996), pp. 313-317:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&lis st_uids=8684547&dopt=AbstractThe point is that uranium(IV) and metalic uranium(0), ingested or inhaled, is relatively mild and causes mostly only noncumulative kidney damage, but the uranium(VI) uranyl ion, is bad news in the immune system and gonocytes. In all cases the chemical toxicity is generally more harmful than its radioactivity.
Sincerely,
James
Posted by jsalsman on Sep 2, 2005 at 8:40 AM sacase wrote: “We do NOT use DU rounds in our
personal weapons….”In the ‘80s, ATK systems made some DU 9 mm rounds, some land mines with DU casings, and even a DU hand grenade. They all were apparently tested, and the report with results of those tests is “sensitive” (essentially classified.) We do know that there were never any significant orders for anything but 20 mm (Phalanx), 25 mm (Bradley), 30 mm (the big category), and 105 and 120 mm tank and howitzer antitank rounds. The Phalanx system actually uses a 15 mm penetrator in a 20 mm plastic sabot.
“The soldier who claimed that he was not told the dangers was lying, doesn’t exist, or was not paying attention.”
They have been improving as the science has been rolling in. The mechanism of DNA action has only been apparent in publications since 2002, and a lot of the other pieces have fallen into place since. I expect by 2007 they will probably have a pretty good handle on what actually happened.
However, there are a lot of researchers who missed the obvious, the not-quite-obvious, and the downright obscure, and many of them have heavy professional and emotional investments in their negative conclusions. Science doesn’t always work well because personalities are involved.
For example, I am not envious of Dr. Melissa McDairmid, who had responsibility for following the health progress of exposure victims. She latched on to shapnel victims early on, ignoring the possibility of uranyl inhalation. As we’ve discussed, metalic and uranium(IV)—which is how shrapnel is metabolized—is mostly harmless.
At some point Dr. McDairmid is going to have to realize the whole UO3(g) vapor fumes exposure pattern, with its attendant chromosome damage. Then she can easily explain the immune system and reproductive damage she’s been witnessing.
Sincerely,
James
Posted by jsalsman on Sep 2, 2005 at 8:41 AM P.S. Phalanx is already converted to tungsten; the DU Phalanx system would occasionaly strike neighboring ships when it went off. The incindiary pyrophoricity was probably the biggest hazard the Navy had in mind when it phased out DU Phalanx ordnance in the late ‘90s.
Posted by jsalsman on Sep 2, 2005 at 8:49 AM I see that James Salsman, the intrepid internet researcher now claims to be more expert than Dr. Melissa McDairmid who does the research. He has a massive collection of things he thinks answer the questions, but if you want to see how little he really knows, read the many replies from the experts on the Radsafe list. Then you will find that he spins considerably, sounding believable only to those who know less than he does.
Posted by Ramjet on Sep 2, 2005 at 9:41 AM Rabbit Dung certainly has an endless supply of bovine excrement .. his latest .. claim the DU is a banned chemical and nuclear weapon ..
First, who banned it .. the anti-DU crusaders, Rokke, Salsman, Rabbit Dung and their hangers on .. the UN hasn’t. The International Court in the Hague never recognized the War Crimes Kangaroo Courts at which another anti-DU crusader Leuren Moret testified.
Second .. Depleted Uranium is neither a chemical nor nuclear weapon. A Chemical Agent is a gas, the first was Chlorine Gas, used by the Germans in WW-I in trench warfare; then Mustard, then the Nerve Gases, Tabun, Sarin, Soman and VX. DU is not one of these.
Third, any time anyone tries to point out the many fallacies of the anti-DU crowd, they are derided, claimed to be shills, when in reality, the anti-DU crowd are the bullies with the shills like Rabbit Dung who does not have the guts to privately write me and provide me his name. I guess he does not want to stand up in a court of law and swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth under penalty of perjury. If he is not willing to do that, why should you who are not confirmed members of the anti-DU crowd choose to believe him. Go look up the facts, learn about NORM, Naturally Occuring Radioactive Materials, with Uranium being among the most common of these. Learn about background radiation; learn what the actual physical properties of DU oxide dust are and how far such a dense substance is likely to blow. Don’t take my word for it, go learn for your self, but do consult a chemist or a physicist and don’t take the word of the anti-DU charlatans.
Well Rabbit Dung, ready to swear under penalty of perjury? If I don’t hear from you in my personal mailbox, I will presume that you are not and will make sure this comment list is fully aware that you are not sure enough of your bovine excrement to stand behind it in a court of law.
Posted by Ramjet on Sep 2, 2005 at 10:23 AM Given the following statement in Boston Globe article about study of the foreign fighters in Iraq,
“Obaid said in an interview from London that his Saudi study found that ‘‘the largest group is young kids who saw the images [of the war] on TV and are reading the stuff on the Internet. Or they see the name of a cousin on the list or a guy who belongs to their tribe, and they feel a responsibility to go.”“
What effect do you anti-DU activists think that you are creating? I think you are helping to create suicide bombers. Are you proud of yourselves?
Boston Globe
July 17, 2005
Pg. 1Study Cites Seeds Of Terror In Iraq
War radicalized most, probes find
By Bryan Bender, Globe Staff
WASHINGTON—New investigations by the Saudi Arabian government and an Israeli think tank—both of which painstakingly analyzed the backgrounds and motivations of hundreds of foreigners entering Iraq to fight the United States—have found that the vast majority of these foreign fighters are not former terrorists and became radicalized by the war itself.
Posted by Ramjet on Sep 2, 2005 at 10:54 AM Now Colonel Rabbit shall just prove what a F**king Liar you are again. Not illegal eh?
WIKIPEDIA
“In 1996 and 1997, the United Nations Human Rights Commission in Geneva, passed a resolution to ban the use of depleted uranium weapons. The Subcommission adopted resolutions which include depleted uranium weaponry amongst “weapons of mass and indiscriminate destruction, ... incompatible with international humanitarian or human rights law.” (Secretary General’s Report, 24 June 1997, E/CN. 4/Sub.2/1997/27)
A UN report of 2002 states that DU weapons also potentially breach each of the following laws: The Universal Declaration of Human Rights; the Charter of the United Nations; the Genocide Convention; the Convention Against Torture; the four Geneva Conventions of 1949; the Conventional Weapons Convention of 1980; and the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907. All of these laws are designed to spare civilians from unwarranted suffering in or after armed conflicts.
According to the UN, the resolutions in 1996-97 were passed because DU breaches several international laws concerning inhumane weapons: it is not limited in time or space to the legal field of battle, or to military targets; it continues to act after the war; it is “inhumane” by virtue of its ability to cause prolonged or long term death by cancer and other serious health issues, it causes harm to future civilians and passers by (including unborn children and those breathing the air or drinking water); and it has an “unduly negative” and long term effect on the natural environment and food chain. In detail:
Weapons may only be used in the legal field of battle, defined as legal military targets of the enemy in war. Weapons may not have an adverse effect off the legal field of battle. DU shells burn into fine particles which remain in the air or the environment. So they infect others over a wide range, and future passers-by, with uranium poisoning.
Weapons can only be used for the duration of an armed conflict. A weapon that is used or continues to act after the war is over violates this criterion.
Weapons may not be unduly inhumane. Weapons that cause cancer and illness long after the war are widely considered to be legally “inhumane”. Health issues to unborn children and civilians may also be crimes against humanity under international law.
Weapons may not have an “unduly negative” effect on the natural environment. The dust from DU impact becomes widespread in the environment, and (as with other heavy metals) becomes highly concentrated within living beings and the food chain.”Next lie Roger?
Posted by Rabbitvoz on Sep 2, 2005 at 2:17 PM Weaponized Ceramic Uranium Oxide Gas betrays the motives of its users in the US military and its advocates in politics, government and society. Just as surely as the Nazi’s poisonous hydrogen cyanide gas does for an impartial war crimes investigator.
Death Penalty for you nazis and supporters. Get yourselves a few meters of good hemp rope people, learn how to make a hangmans noose. There are going to be a fair few of these scum and the work could take a while. Best therefore you prepare to share the load. It doesn’t matter who hangs them just so long as they swing. Use their corpses to buy back some respect in the world, it would be cheap at twice the price. Good luck.
Posted by Rabbitvoz on Sep 2, 2005 at 4:55 PM Dance, Dance, Jiggity, Jiggity Dance.
Rabbit enjoyed that.
Whistles, here doggy, come doggy.
Posted by Rabbitvoz on Sep 3, 2005 at 1:19 AM Yoh Rabbit! Don’t be to pissed at me.
I would like to talk to this guy!
Your points are valid.
I know this guy is the “Banality of Evil”
But he does not know it.I have not the time to read your book, good friend Rabbit.
I do not post very often here.
I have not the time.
I have other obligations.I can’t figure how to send you a “per. Mess”.
I keep getting screwed over. It keeps telling me to LOG OUT.Behave yourself. Rabbit.
I know this guy is a goose. BUT
There are people who would like to engage him in dialogue.But they have not the time to read all your pages of very pointed and yet justified attack.
Relax. We can’t hold, and skin the guy if your busy peeling off his bark!
Your in a feeding frenzy.
There are other people standing in line.
Give us a break. Give him a chance.
He needs enough rope to hang himself.
Your not giving him a chance to take that rope, Pal.And I do not want to loose good contributors.
Eg. Jsalsman, McCarthy, etc. etc. etc. me included!Now “ Ram Jet! “ aka Helbig
If DU is no more of a problem than “Lead”, or a “Bag of Fertilizer” or backgreound radiation, why is “Radioactive Nuclear Waste” such a problem. Because that’s what it is Bros.!
Cut the Crap or we will all leave you to the RABBIT to feed upon.You have never answered that “RamJet”.
Is it because the people who “indoctrinated” you, never told you?
Or changed the subject when it came up.If it all drops to the ground, why did they find it in Montenegro, and Albania, places where it was never dispersed.
. Though Chernobyl, was not all DU it was of the same, or very close density.
Why was Chernobyl a problem.
Why was ‘Fallout” during above ground Nuke testing an issue.
And the resulting world wide, well documented cancer increase?Because good Sir. The “Particular Size” is so fine so small, It is a cermamic gas!
It can waft away in a slight breeze!
It can dissolve into the ground water. It migrates and gets around.Review my posts on how DU has polluted parts of the “United States”
Not to mention the problems they are having in Puerto Rico, and other places where “DOD” has been screwing people over with this stuff DU.Answer Question # 1
You have never before attempted to broached this one Helbig.Well I’m holding your feet to the fire.
Answer it to yourself, before you answer it to me or anybody else.
Why can we not just dump this Sh*t into Landfill.
Or if it’s no more of a problem than a “bag of fertilizer” as you have said and I have documented off this site.
Why can’t we spread it on our garden or use it as fill.Now don’t just back pedal on this one Mr. Helbig Military retireed. DEAL with the FACT
Question # 2 – The morality of it all. Using DU, Radoiactive Waste to snuff well over 100,000 souls of which how many were terrorists????
THINK ABOUT IT _ PLEASE THINK ABOUT IT>Do a google on “Banality of Evil”
Then read a good book on “Indoctrination and Brain Wash” then look in a mirror.Then have a truly religious experience.
A change of heart and mind!
Posted by Eadora on Sep 3, 2005 at 6:20 AM Dave Llindorf—I see that you are a truly objective reporter .. jumping to conclusions without having done any independent research. How much of your article is just lifted from the New York Daily News article (I can’t tell because I don’t really have the bucks .. the paymasters have not come through .. to obtain the article(s) from the Daily News archives ..
A real investigative reporter would verify that Sergeant Matthews really had symptoms of depleted uranium poisioning, not that Asaf Durakovic, who seems to ignore naturally occuring uranium when he makes his pronouncements of being able to detect minute levels of so-called depleted uranium (how he tells the difference between DU and naturally occuring U-238 is something that your readers would really like to know) .. not that Durakovic has not claimed that Matthews has been poisoned by DU. A real investigative reporter would not just show us a picture of the Sergeant and his daughter, but would show how the daughter’s condition most likely was due to DU and not due to any other cause. A real investigative reporter would explain how they reached that conclusion.
Then again, since Llindorf prefers to comment on this list along with such objective commentators as Rabbit Dung and his hangers on, I guess it is pretty clear that Llindorf is not even a real reporter, let alone a bonafide investigative reporter. What paper have you reported for in the past? Do you have a journalism degree? Did you ever write for anything other than a biased internet rag?
Rokke can not allow anyone to try and inject common sense and science .. it spoils the theatre. I wonder what I will find when I finally get his military records. I wonder what a FOIA request will reveal about his employment at the Army Radiation Laboratory. A real investigative reporter would have probed Rokke’s past, not just lapped up whatever he put in the bowl.
I am an individual, not paid by anyone, not affiliated with anyone and not under anyone’s control. The Pentagon forgot about me long ago .. and I never had a thing to do with depleted uranium as either a member of the active Air Force, the reserve components of the Air Force or as a civilian employee of the Department of Defense. What I did get was enough grounding in radioactive substances to recognize Rokke’s bovine excrement when I saw it. For that, I get slandered all over the world, but that is the way with you anti-DU activists .. you attack anyone who does not agree with you or spout your lies.
Posted by Ramjet on Sep 3, 2005 at 8:50 AM Announcement:
This site encourages debate about issues. The truth may be discussed but it is not in any way intended that truth should be established beyond doubt. Any poster caught seriously removing all doubt about any issue which is too unflattering to the US government or its employees will be edited out and locked out of the site. Furthermore their computer will suffer a serious hacking attack.
This thread has been re-arranged so as to undo some of the damage to credibility of a troll who is quite active on this site.
Another thread on New Orleans has had to have similar treatment because someone said too many true things about the US government.
Members are encouraged to discuss things but this site reserves the right to curtail excessive imbalance of truth. Balance means equal amount of lies and truth.
War is Freedom
The dangers of DU are in doubt.
All animals are equal.
Some are more equal than others.There is No Rabbitvoz
There never was anybody called Rabbitvoz
There is nothing to see here folks.Any member mentioning someone called Rabbit as having been a real person will be terminated.
You have been warned.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 3, 2005 at 1:59 PM “Any member mentioning someone called Rabbit as having been a real person will be terminated”
??????WHAT KIND OF CRAP IS THAT?????
That’s weird
Jeeze “Rabbit” I told you not to get to pissed.Anyway.
YOH! RamjetANSWER MY QUESTIONS _ CRETIN _ ANSWER THEM!
As far as Rokke, & Moret and their Bona Fides is concerned..
Posted by Ramjet
“I guess he does not want to stand up in a court of law and swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth under penalty of perjury”
He could be brought into a court of law and exposed”Have you ever asked yourself Roger, why they have not been dragged into court?
If they are entirely phony and propagating lies .
Lies that about their claims as to their histories and credentials
Lies that as you claim, damage legitimate government programs.
Lies that give comfort to the enemies of The United States.The government would have them in a court of law and they would be muzzled sued and no doubt prosecuted both in civil and criminal court.
Especially given the new goosey powers they have acquired under the Patriot Acts.
The fact that the DOD, do not want to touch them with a barge pole speaks volumes as to their credibility. DU would become a national issue and would be exposed.
——————————— ;—
Posted by Ramjet on September 2, 2005 at 3:13 AM
I got into this because I have some knowledge of radioactive materials gained from taking a class in 1973 at Lowry AFB with field work at Rocky Mountain Arsenal, from leading a detection and decontamination team for two years, from being a reservist with the Alameda County Office of Civil Defense and from working closely with nuclear engineers in the decontamination and closure of a nuclear shipyard.You have been Indoctrinated. The gray matter thoroughly scubbed.
You have been trained and programmed like a LAPTOP.
You move their motions and speak their words.Posted by jsalsman on September 2, 2005 at 3:41 AM
“many of them have heavy professional and emotional investments in their negative
conclusions”That’s you Roger, Wake up! THINK ABOUT IT!
But before you do. ANSWER MY QUESTIONS
One—-Landfill
Two—- Morality
Posted by Eadora on Sep 3, 2005 at 2:37 PM Speaking of “Morality” here’s a test! See where you stand!
[B]THIS IS A TEST[/B]
I don’t know where it came from.
This test only has one question, but it’s a very important one. By giving an honest answer, you will discover where you stand morally. The test features an unlikely, completely fictional situation in which you will have to make a decision. Remember that your answer needs to be honest, yet spontaneous.Please scroll down slowly and give due consideration to each line. You are in Florida, Miami to be specific. There is chaos all around you caused by a hurricane with severe flooding. This is a flood of biblical proportions. You are a photojournalist working for a major newspaper,
and you’re caught in the middle of this epic disaster. The situation is nearly hopeless. You’re trying to shoot career-making photos. There are houses and people swirling around you, some disappearing under the water. Nature is unleashing all of its destructive fury.Suddenly you see a man floundering in the water. He is fighting for his life, trying not to be taken down with the debris. You move closer. somehow the man looks familiar. You suddenly realize who it is.It’s George W. Bush!
At the same time you notice that the raging waters are about to take him under…forever. You have two options—you can save the life of G.W. Bush or you can shoot a dramatic Pulitzer Prize winning photo, documenting the death of one of the world’s most powerful men.
So here’s the question, and please give an honest answer:
Would you select high contrast color film, or would you go with the classic simplicity of black and white?
Forgive the diversion. A little humor even if it is a little sick. Please forgive.
Posted by Eadora on Sep 3, 2005 at 2:38 PM Eadora, if you don’t know what I meant you missed something. Rabbit already answered you last post with
“Bunny Quiet Promise”But it along with all my comments has been edited out and if you think it was only my attack of Roger, better check out the NO thread. Weirdly though Rabbit commenst on other thread still there, but Rabbit is locked out and his computer suffered massive hack attack this afternoon.
This is another computer and Rabbit slipped in back door.
See this thread. It’s short and sri-oracle tells all.
Expect they find me and shut this handle down too soon. Don’t beleive me check it out.
http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/2310/
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 3, 2005 at 3:04 PM Ramjet/Helbig wrote: “I see that James Salsman ... now claims to be more expert than Dr. Melissa McDairmid who does the research….”
I never claimed to be more expert, just to have found something she and all her colleagues and counterparts in other countries have missed. The best researcher will tell you that a few days in the library can save a few years in the laboratory. The Gmelin Handbook states that the “taking up of oxygen by U3O8 [is] not infrequently ignored.”
“read the many replies from the experts on the Radsafe list. Then you will find that he spins considerably….”
Care to point to an example? Few on RADSAFE have the guts to answer many of my questions, preferring to ignore them instead. A lot of them are invested in the issue, and a lot of them don’t need any controversy. At least the CHPs in the Department of Transportation pulled the free-ride exemption for DU that the nuclear waste and munitions industries had enjoyed for so long. Do you think they did so because they of radiation concerns? No, they reacted to the difference in the chemical hazard, which is much worse when you consider the UO3(g) vapor produces in a uranium fire, than if you ignore it, as so many on RADSAFE so convieniently do.
“Depleted Uranium is [not] a chemical ... weapon.”
Just because poison gas from a weapon was not intended, doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist.
“How [Asaf Durakovic] tells the difference between DU and naturally occuring U-238 is something that your readers would really like to know.”
The same way everyone else does, with mass spectrographic isotope ratio analysis. For example see his 2003 and 2005 papers:
http://www.bovik.org/du/inhalation-est.pdf
http://www.bovik.org/du/oef.pdf
Posted by jsalsman on Sep 3, 2005 at 8:16 PM DU is safe. We should add it to our water supply like flouride. Maybe it will strengthen teeth like it does bullets.
Sri Oracle
Posted by sri oracle on Sep 4, 2005 at 3:43 AM Sri,
DU is a metal, it is not soluble in water. DU is not used to strengthen bullets, but as a bullet, just like a piece of lead, another heavy metal. Learn more about what DU is by going to www.hps.org and looking at the Ask the Expert Section on Uranium which includes their fact sheet on DU.
Posted by Ramjet on Sep 4, 2005 at 3:54 AM Asking the Health Physics Society about DU is like asking the tobacco industry about smoking, before they started losing their lawsuits. For example, HPS program committee officer and author Colonel Robert N. Cherry claimed in official correspondence to the NRC that, “the army has safely developed and tested depleted uranium ... munitions for many years. We are determined to continue this record…. use in battle of depleted uranium munitions is essential….”
http://www.bovik.org/du/nrc-2000-petition/army-reply.tifIf you want a neutral source, how about the World Health Organization? “Until more
information on the chemical form of uranium and DU in the environment is obtained, it would be prudent to assume that it is in a soluble form (ICRP Type F).”—from Chapter 8, “The Chemical Toxicity of Uranium,” of “Depleted Uranium: Sources, Exposure and Health Effects,” World Health Organization, Ionizing Radiation Unit, 2001. (UO2, U3O8 are “insoluble” and mostly harmless; uranyl compounds like UO3 are “soluble” and toxic due to their DNA damage.)
Posted by jsalsman on Sep 4, 2005 at 6:50 AM Forgot the link for the WHO report quote. It’s on page 103 here:
http://www.who.int/ionizing_radiation/pub_meet/en/Depluranium4.pdfAnother thing I wanted to respond to: To whomever said that discussing the effects of DU emboldens our enemies, that’s just wrong on so many levels. Those who ignore the deleterious effects on our troops and the civilians we are charged with protecting are potentially worse in the long run than the nominal enemies. If you want to keep the loudest voices from speaking up about DU, then you are going to have to start with the states of Louisiana and Connecticut, which both passed DU monitoring laws. Should we require the states to give up their soverenity so that we can better coordinate a PR campaign? No, and we damn well better not touch the First Amendment, either, especially when families’ health is at stake.
Posted by jsalsman on Sep 4, 2005 at 6:59 AM It would be instructive to find out who funds Bovik.org and what James Salsman does for a living .. he certainly has not got much time to do anything else but try and confuse people about DU. Also curious what this organization is. Maybe you should enlighten this comment forum about just exactly who James Salsman is and how he funds this endless attack against depleted uranium.
I am going to send Professor Emeritus Ronald L. Kathren your comments .. maybe he will reply, but he does not exactly look like he is in the pocket of the DU munitions industry.
Posted by Ramjet on Sep 4, 2005 at 7:07 AM Hit a nerve? I’m just me, funded by myself, via my home business at www.readsay.com. I got involved when I read the Project Censored stuff a year ago, and decided to spend a day in the Stanford Chemistry Library, where by dumb luck (I have only an incomplete minor in chemistry) I came upon the Ackermann, et al. UO3(g) vapor evidence. Since then, it’s all fallen together, like shooting fish in a barrel, and it’s become a few-hour-per-day hobby. I’ve certainly learned a lot about the NRC petition processes.
When you email Ron Kathren, please include the following excerpts from his web site and ask him how he feels about hps.org not publishing anything that suggests uranium can harm any organs other than the kidneys:
“before the discovery and availability of insulin, uranium was used therapeutically for the treatment of diabetes; relatively high doses were administered by mouth to patients, but there were no reports of kidney toxicity.”
http://hps.org/publicinformation/ate/q1906.html“uranium is a weak chemical poison that can seriously damage the kidneys at high blood concentrations. Virtually all of the observed or expected effects are from nephrotoxicity associated with deposition in the kidney tubules and glomeruli damage at high blood concentrations of uranium.”
http://hps.org/publicinformation/ate/q754.html“Animal studies have shown that sufficiently high doses of uranium ingested into the body will produce damage to the kidneys, and at still greater doses may cause death. However, there are few human data available and those that are available seem to suggest that ingested uranium may not be very toxic to humans.”
http://hps.org/publicinformation/ate/q450.html“the chemical toxicity of uranium is known to produce minor effects on the kidney, which in humans who have suffered large acute exposures have been transitory and wholly reversible.”
http://hps.org/publicinformation/ate/q746.html“any such effects from ingestion or inhalation of uranium would likely manifest themselves first in the form of minor effects associated with the kidneys”
http://hps.org/publicinformation/ate/q611.html“the chemical toxicity of uranium is known to produce minor effects on the kidney”
http://hps.org/newsandevents/newsarchive/oldnews172.html
Posted by jsalsman on Sep 4, 2005 at 7:32 AM Mr Salsman,
You indicate that you have a minor in Chemistry; I was under the impression that one has to have a baccalaureate degree and a major in order to have a minor. I initially also was under the impression that you were a graduate of Carnegie-Mellon University, but then both you and the University corrected me on your having actually completed the requirements for a degree there. Now, I do not recall that you completed the requirements for a degree at any institution of higher learning. Perhaps my memory is unclear on that point, would you care to clarify this point.
Posted by Ramjet on Sep 4, 2005 at 9:48 AM Ramjet/Roger:
I said I have an “incomplete minor in chemistry.” Have you decided to focus on my credentials because you are unable to address the content of my arguments?
Posted by jsalsman on Sep 4, 2005 at 10:12 PM Ramjet
When will you answer my two simple questions!
Or when will you LOOK and perceive the face in the mirror!
Time to WAKE UP! Ramjet.
Answer the questions – FACE THE FACTS!ONE: —- WHY cannot we use our Radioactive waste as landfill?
If DU. is no more of a problem than: < Background RAD. A Bag of fertilizer, or a bit or Lead., As you contend! ——- ANSWER – or burn in Hell, like so many Iraqi civilians or US. GI’sTWO —— If you cannot answer Query ONE
WHAT is the Morality of Killing with TOXIC WASTE!.
War Crime!Answer! – Cretin ANSWER!
Cut the Crap – Look in Past the Smoke you have been fed, and Look into the Mirror!
and ANSWER! For your own sake ANSWER!
Posted by Eadora on Sep 5, 2005 at 12:19 AM The Ghost of Rabbit still haunts you lying Pentagon SHILL.
You are a gross liar, others have proven you to be a liar. Rabbit has proven you to be a pathetic weasel shill as well.
You mistake opinions for fact and probably wouldn’t know a fact if you were sitting on it, which is no doubt all facts are for you. Something to sit on.
You said DU is not banned weapon as Chemical and Nuclear, the fact is you are a liar and here is a fact which proves it once again. It also by the way provides ample food for speculation about you being tried for war crimes one day also. Of course this will take a test case, you are first in line to be it.
—-WIKIPEDIA
In 1996 and 1997, the United Nations Human Rights Commission in Geneva, passed a resolution to ban the use of depleted uranium weapons. The Subcommission adopted resolutions which include depleted uranium weaponry amongst “weapons of mass and indiscriminate destruction, ... incompatible with international humanitarian or human rights law.” (Secretary General’s Report, 24 June 1997, E/CN. 4/Sub.2/1997/27)
A UN report of 2002 states that DU weapons also potentially breach each of the following laws: The Universal Declaration of Human Rights; the Charter of the United Nations; the Genocide Convention; the Convention Against Torture; the four Geneva Conventions of 1949; the Conventional Weapons Convention of 1980; and the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907. All of these laws are designed to spare civilians from unwarranted suffering in or after armed conflicts.
According to the UN, the resolutions in 1996-97 were passed because DU breaches several international laws concerning inhumane weapons: it is not limited in time or space to the legal field of battle, or to military targets; it continues to act after the war; it is “inhumane” by virtue of its ability to cause prolonged or long term death by cancer and other serious health issues, it causes harm to future civilians and passers by (including unborn children and those breathing the air or drinking water); and it has an “unduly negative” and long term effect on the natural environment and food chain. In detail:
Weapons may only be used in the legal field of battle, defined as legal military targets of the enemy in war. Weapons may not have an adverse effect off the legal field of battle. DU shells burn into fine particles which remain in the air or the environment. So they infect others over a wide range, and future passers-by, with uranium poisoning.
Weapons can only be used for the duration of an armed conflict. A weapon that is used or continues to act after the war is over violates this criterion.
Weapons may not be unduly inhumane. Weapons that cause cancer and illness long after the war are widely considered to be legally “inhumane”. Health issues to unborn children and civilians may also be crimes against humanity under international law.
Weapons may not have an “unduly negative” effect on the natural environment. The dust from DU impact becomes widespread in the environment, and (as with other heavy metals) becomes highly concentrated within living beings and the food chain.Seems pretty conclusive to Rabbit. Rambo
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 5, 2005 at 1:32 AM United Nations:
http://www.unhchr.ch/tbs/doc.nsf/(Symbol)/7afeec7003489bb7802567550045e27a?Op pendocument
http://www.unhchr.ch/Huridocda/Huridoca.nsf/(Symbol)/E.CN.4.Sub.2.2002.38.En? ?Opendocument
http://www.unep.org/pdf/iraq_ds_lowres.pdf
Scientific:
http://www.royalsoc.ac.uk/landing.asp?id=1243
Now if there was any real scientific organisation in the world who would support genocidal ideas it would have to be this bunch of Ape descendants. Even the Royal Society isn’t prepared to ultimately sacrifice it’s credibility by running with you on this. The truly informed will know what this means.
http://www.ead.anl.gov/pub/doc/Depleted-Uranium.pdf
http://www.ead.anl.gov/pub/doc/Uranium.pdf
http://www.sandia.gov/news-center/news-releases/2005/def-nonprolif-sec/snl-du usand.pdf
Other:
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0508/S00085.htm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uranium/0,7368,419839,00.html
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/04/05/1356248&mode=thread&a amp;tid=25
Another 500 links here:
http://www.betterworldlinks.org/du.htm
These links can provide a massive amount of facts, DU lovers. Get some real facts into you then think about them a bit after a while you will notice a strange process happening in your head. As the process coagulates into new thoughts, which will be distinguishable for you by being new and maybe a little frightening, recognise that these things are opinions. Real opinions. We all here value these things in ourselves and others. What we do get impatient with is arguing facts against opinions. Actually it is pointless arguing with someone who cannot distinguish the two, but of course only the person with the facts can see this.
Rabbit will let you guys skin him now, if he needs it. Hope I do that he will join the human race, such stubborness can be a strength when channelled into truth and good.
Rabbitvoz
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 5, 2005 at 1:47 AM I swear Roger that this will be the last post I will direct your way if you will answer with a clear unequivocal yes, that you have read the post, taken from Wikipedia, and that you have verified it’s accuracy. Answer Rabbit Yes on this one and he will say no more to you or about you on this thread. Bunny promise.
Rabbit wants to establish that you actually believe your words, enough to stake your life on it. Your words are putting others lives at stake in our collective opinion, therefore put it where your mouth is and LTC Roger Helbig, answer for Rabbit and the world.
I Roger Helbig known as Ramjet have read the Wikipedia quote and have verified it’s veracity.
From there on you’re on your own, I Steve Pallister, known as Rabbit will not even say boo to you.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 5, 2005 at 7:32 AM GhostRabbit, what ARE you smoking? Gotta get ME some of that. Do you ship internationally?
The link you provided just above:
http://www.royalsoc.ac.uk/landing.asp?id=1243
Within that link is this link:
http://www.royalsociety.org/document.asp?id=1402
Which contains thus:
The Part I report draws the following conclusions:
Except in extreme circumstances any extra risks of developing fatal cancers as a result of radiation from internal exposure to DU arising from battlefield conditions are likely to be so small that they would not be detectable above the general risk of dying from cancer over a normal lifetime.
The greatest exposures will apply only to a very small fraction of the soldiers in a theatre of war, for example those who survive in a vehicle struck by a DU penetrator. In such circumstances, and assuming the most unfavourable conditions, the lifetime risk of death from lung cancer is unlikely to exceed twice that in the general population.
Any extra risks of death from leukaemia, or other cancers, as a result of exposure to DU are estimated to be substantially lower than the risks of death from lung cancer. Under all likely exposure scenarios the extra lifetime risks of fatal leukaemia are predicted to be too small to be observable.
Many soldiers on a battlefield may be exposed to small amounts of DU and the risks of cancer from such exposures are predicted to be very low. Even if the estimates of risk for these conditions are one hundred times too low, it is unlikely that any excess of fatal cancer would be detected within a cohort of 10,000 soldiers followed over 50 years.
Epidemiological studies complement assessments of actual exposures and radiation risks. Although epidemiological studies of occupational exposure to uranium are not sensitive enough to detect small increases in overall risks of cancer, they nevertheless tend to confirm the calculations of the risks derived from estimates of actual exposures to DU.
The main conclusions of the Part II report are:The risks to the kidney and other organs and tissues from the use of DU in munitions are very low for most soldiers on the battlefield and for those living in the conflict area.
In extreme conditions and under worst-case assumptions, soldiers who receive large intakes of DU could suffer adverse effects on the kidney and lung.
Environmental contamination will be very variable but in most cases the associated health risks due to DU will be very low. In some worst-case scenarios high local levels of uranium could occur in food or water that could have adverse effects on the kidney.
Again, DO YOU SHIP INTERNATIONALLY?
Posted by Natalie on Sep 5, 2005 at 7:45 AM Natalie:
Part I of that Royal Society report only evaluates radiological hazard; Part II discusses the chemical toxicity without considering reproductive or immune system effects. The closest they get is: “There is recent evidence that uranium may directly damage genetic material and there is a possibility of damage to DNA due to the chemical effects being enhanced by the effects of the alpha-particle irradiation.”
The following publications document uranium’s reproductive and developmental toxicity and its damage to the immune system. Who knows why the Royal Society ignored these primary sources and peer-reviewed medical publications:
Voegtlin and Hodge, editors, Pharmacology and Toxicology of Uranium (New York: McGraw-Hill, any edition; e.g., “Degenerative changes in the testes resulting in aspermia in the testes and epididymis ... a result of uranyl nitrate,” appears in the 1953 chapter by E.A. Maynard, et al., “Oral toxicity of uranium compounds,” in vol. 3, pp. 1221-1369)
Q. Hu and S. Zhu, “Induction of chromosomal aberrations in male mouse germ cells by uranyl fluoride containing enriched uranium,” Mutation Research, vol. 244 (1990), pp. 209-214
T.C. Pellmar, et al., “Distribution of uranium in rats implanted with depleted uranium pellets,” Toxicol. Sci., vol. 49 (1999), pp. 29-39
A.C. Miller, et al., “Depleted uranium-catalyzed oxidative DNA damage: absence of significant alpha particle decay,” Journal of Inorganic Biochemistry, vol. 91, no. 1 (2002), pp. 246-252:
http://www.bovik.org/du/Miller-DNA-damage.pdfJ.L. Domingo, et al., “The Developmental Toxicity of Uranium in Mice,” Toxicology, vol. 55 (1989), pp. 143-152.
A.F. Malenchenko, et al., “Effect of uranium on the induction and course of experimental autoimmune orchitis and hyroiditis,” J. Hyg. Epidemiol. Microbiol. Immunol., vol. 22 (1978), pp. 268-277.However, while the Royal Society ignored uranium’s reproductive toxicity, the U.K. government has acknoledged it in this Pension Appeals Board ruling:
“A former soldier has become the first veteran to win a war pension appeal after suffering depleted uranium poisoning during the Gulf War. Kenny Duncan took the Ministry of Defence to the Pensions Appeal Tribunal Service over his claim that he suffered depleted uranium poisoning during active service in Iraq.
The father of three, from Clackmannanshire, served with the Royal Corps of Transport as a specialist tank transporter during the first Gulf War in 1991. Part of his job was to move Iraqi tanks destroyed by depleted uranium shells. Mr Duncan’s case relied on blood tests carried out by Dr Albrecht Schott, a German biochemist, which revealed chromosome aberrations caused by ionising radiation. The tribunal found that Mr Duncan’s exposure to the uranium was attributable to his service in the Gulf.
“Dr Schott’s research formed part of a study of 16 British veterans of conflicts in the Gulf, Bosnia, and Kosovo, which found that they had 14 times the usual level of chromosome abnormalities in their genes, raising fears that they will pass cancers and genetic illnesses to their offspring. Kenny Duncan believes that his children’s health problems are linked to his service in the Gulf war. All three were born with deformed toes and low immune systems.”
—http://www.cadu.org.uk/info/veterans/17_1.htm
Posted by jsalsman on Sep 5, 2005 at 9:00 AM James,
These are all fascinating sounding studies, but I have a feeling the reason they weren’t relevant to the Royal Society is because they didn’t apply to real world situations.
Obviously, you can make mice sick if you feed ‘em enough of anything. The unfounded fears that have been unleashed upon the public due to those squeaky little devils is legendary.
The Royal Society seems to be focused on what the dangers of DU are on soldiers and on people that subsequently encounter the battlefield. Not mice.
Court cases are not in any way relevant to scientific reality. Just ask Nicole Simpson, if only you could.
Posted by Natalie on Sep 5, 2005 at 9:32 AM That Natalie, and you know what I think of you. Is totally beside the point. There are over five hundred links included above, many amny more than the royal society.
For a sweet all american girl with an open mind you sure seem determined to prove that DU is safe. Your juvenile attempt to be insulting doesn’t cast a shadow on the devastating attacks backed by truth to which you have already succumbed. Your persona is false and we know this, nothing about you adds up and you are shilling not discussing.
Anyway, The royal society is one, deal with all of the rest, you open minded girl.
But before you try any more of your crap on, nobody likes you have you noticed? Do please read the Rabbit’s direct cut and paste from WIKIPEDIA above then do what I asked LTC Roger Helbig,put it where your mouth is or be labelled a false shill. Verify the veracity of the quote, check the references given if you don’t trust WIKIPEDIA. (Can’t trust it maybe they are part of our anti-DU cabal after all.) Ramjet has not replied to this nor can he) Unless as it is Rabbit’s earnest he is having an epiphany this very moment. In Rabbit’s opinion, the Roger Ramjet is probably hiding behind your skirt. You see that Natalie Rabbit noted that was an opinion and since there is much that would suggest this it is not an unreasonable opinion to have. Right or wrong and I don’t much care either way, it doesn’t make me a liar. If I had said you were definately the Helbig alter ego I would then be lying. You see to state an opinion as fact is lying. But to have a wrong opinion especially a qualified one, is quite forgivable on its own.
To deny that the use of DU is a war crime, is a lie. Therefore confirm you have read and understood the veracity, then give us your opinion. Even though most of us can predict your opinions on just about anything, (We can watch TV, the script, too) Rabbit even is stumped on what your opinion may be after having read and understood this fact. Rabbit is not interested in arguing opinions with people. He will express his and you may welcome to yours. What Rabbit will ensure is that facts are established, nobody can argue facts. They are either provable or not. If not they are opinion.
What will it be Natalie. Will you now morph into a third face and avoid this one question?
Rabbit isn’t even asking two, twice as hard, like Eadora. Rabbit has less ambition, he will settle for your opinion, based on a provable, agreed fact. One question if you dare.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 5, 2005 at 12:24 PM You have continued to claim you are trying to make your mind up Natalie. You have cheered for Ramjet several times despite the fact that quite a few people have clearly and independantly using many different sources and making clear points, destroyed everything Ramjet is and has said. He has been exposed, last time challenged him on the WAR Crimes issue he vanished until Rabbit suddenly was pulled from the site. The site has re-instated my other posts and Rabbit is happy to let his personal attacks of Roger stay off. He heard me once, he knows how utterly he was licked. As soon however as Rabbit seemed out of the way, the Colonel crawled back under the door and began his usual tricks of waffle, waffle, lie lie. Now Rabbit presents the same fact and ping, gone is the Colonel and Ping, back is the Natalie.
Rabbit has pointed out from the first time he read your hollow words, Natalie, you are also a Disinfo Shill and whether or not you are a Pentagon female, or Roger in drag does not matter you have completely given the game away. You have no choice but to verify the FACT that the US is committing a war crime with DU, and then offer your opinion about this. Good or bad. Rabbit predicts you will dissapear rather than face up to one indisputable fact. You will argue opinions till the piper must be paid, but one indisputable fact which throws your lies into focus, then what? Run away? Lie some more? Waffle or try to be smart and hope nobody notices you’re not answering a straight question? We have noticed Natalie.Walk the plank Captain Natalie.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 5, 2005 at 1:45 PM You’re somewhat less abusive now, Rabbit, and that’s appreciated. You still don’t seem to have gotten over your paranoia, although there are signs it’s on the wane.
You sure like to demand things from people a lot, don’t you. Eadora does too. Hmmm….could it be? Rabbit and Eadora the same person? Seems plausible enough. ;-) Damn the science, I deem it so!!
Let me ask you some questions, and I’ll attempt to answer yours when I have more time.
Why would all these scientists at the Royal Society, whatever that is, put their reputations and credibility on the line by making such definitive statements as those above?
Why do so many other reputable scientists do the same?
Why do most of the scientists on the other side of the argument seem so often to be hiding their true credentials and backgrounds?
You seem actually be quite a creative and prolific writer, Rabbit. You’re very entertaining and endearing in a strange way. Might you point us to some other writings you’ve made on the web?
Posted by Natalie on Sep 5, 2005 at 5:18 PM Natalie:
Perhaps the Royal Society ignored the reproductive toxicity of uranium in their report because it was written before the publication of these papers:
“Overall, the risk of any malformation among pregnancies reported by men was 50% higher in [U.K.] Gulf War Veterans (GWV) compared with Non-GWVs”
—Doyle et al. Int. J. Epidemiol., vol. 33 (2004), pp. 74-86:
http://ije.oupjournals.org/cgi/content/full/33/1/74“Infants conceived postwar to male [U.S.] GWVs had significantly higher prevalence of tricuspid valve insufficicieny (relative risk [RR], 2.7; 95% confidence interval [CI], 1.1-6.6; p = 0.039) and aortic valve stenosis (RR, 6.0; 95% CI, 1.2-31.0; p = 0.026) compared to infants conceived postwar to nondeployed veteran males. Among infants of male GWVs, aortic valve stenosis (RR, 163; 95% CI, 0.09-294; p = 0.011) and renal agenesis or hypoplasia (RR, 16.3; 95% CI, 0.09-294; p = 0.011) were significantly higher among infants conceived postwar than prewar.”
—Birth Defects Res A Clin Mol Teratol. vol. 67, no. 4 (2003), pp. 246-60: http://www.bovik.org/du/mscusn/BD_Infants_GWV_AR_AZ_CA_GA_HI_IA_1989-1993.pdfIf anyone has hypothesized any substance other than uranium which could have caused an increase in birth defects in U.S. and U.K. troops as well as Basrah civilians, I haven’t heard about it. And believe me, I’ve been asking around. Not even any of the NRC DU munitions licensees have been able to come up with an alternative hypothesis in their response to my 10 CFR 2.206 petition, and the best the uranium mining industry was able to do in response to my NRC rulemaking petition was find an M.D., Dr. Nancy Standler, who said, “... if your committee were to decide that you wanted to worry about the reproductive toxicity effects, it is not at all clear that you would be able to figure out what an appropriate acceptable exposure would be.”
Sincerely,
James
Posted by jsalsman on Sep 5, 2005 at 7:40 PM Natalie, you are right about Rabbit in many ways, whether or not you realise it. Stop trying to copy Rabbit’s style, your attempts at wit go up like lead balloons. You don’t fool anybody with your transparent avoidance of one real, verifiable fact. Eadora and Rabbit have been straight up with you. You just keep wriggling. We are not doing more than asking you to prove you believe in your cause. Remember do you how you claimed from the start and repeatedly since that you just trying to make up your mind? Rabbit called you from the start, you have been referring to Rabbit as Paranoid from the start, for doing no more than “correctly” identifying your game and the Ramjets. Since you have stuck to the script perfectly as Rabbit predicted, don’t you think it’s time to stop pretending Rabbit was ever wrong about you? You are not convincing anyone, why don’t you ask if anyone believes you are what you say?
Like Roger you keep on demonstarting your paranoia. You seem so sure that we on this site are not who we say we are. James, Rabbit, others too have stated their position clearly. Names given too. Ramjet got such a shock when his name came out he went berserk trying to get Rabbit to do same, thinking somehow this could cause Rabbit as much consternation as he felt. But no, Rabbit gave his name and all without hesitation and Ramjet proved what a cretin he is by continuing to demand it. Didn’t he read the post to which he was answering? Of course not.
Rabbit has not changed dear Natalie. At 42 am a Fire Rabbit born of Water, we don’t change.
Natalie, Rabbit is what he has been for a long time. Rabbit once was a lone voice in the widerness. Now the crowd is growing. Nat, Rabbit has for a while actually decided you are Female after all, even though Rabbit’s 14 yo son read you and said you not. What would a teenager know about girls, eh? What Rabbit would guess though is that you are military female, explains the martial tone. Just a harmless guess, sweetheart. Opinion you know. facts are the only thing Rabbit is prepared to argue, opinions all are welcome to. Rabbit knows the answer to everything and the reason for war, and argument and hate. It is due only to people having lost the ability, (maybe never had it), of distinguishing Fact from Opinion.
More for Natalie…
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 6, 2005 at 1:33 AM Rabbit has requested and does so again that you deal with the one fact, clearly pointed to by WIKIPEDIA above. Don’t argue it as an opinion, it isn’t. It is a fact, if you truly as smart as Rabbit suspects, you must know the truth of what Rabbit has said. Natalie, Rabbit has stated his opinions, directly and indirectly. Rabbit is not arguing these with anyone. All Rabbit is trying to do is establish a fact which is irrevocable, so we can move on from here.
Rabbit has said your opinion is yours, but, you must say what is your opinion to the fact that use of DU by US and Britain is banned under international law.
Remember, you can’t say it isn’t banned, Roger did and knows he is beat. If he crawls back, he will be pinned to the wall. Even if he follows the WIKIPEDIA post without acknowledging it it is likely that the evidence will swtand in court. Bet he is consulting with lawyers right this minute in fact.
Natalie you actually like Rabbit a bit, and he hasn’t given up on you. Rabbit has tried to give you the most simple tool with which to reclaim, your soul. One irrefutable fact which forces you to form an opinion of your own. If your military and country are committing not one, but several war crimes, do you support this?
Natalie, if you face up to that, you know what you must answer, Rabbit knows. After that everything else is academic, you know it Nat. Babe, the people for whom you are shilling don’t care about you. They are sacrificing many people better than you on a daily basis and loving it. They will use you then caste you aside when it suits them or because someone forgot to fill in the right form.
Natalie, the things you sense about Rabbit are not imaginary. Rabbit knows things you do not. Rabbit is a magic Rabbit. Rabbit is not in the world to cause more arguments and wars, he is here to stop this silliness. Rabbit has given many the keys to true freedom and they are yours for the taking. Just force yourself to look at the one fact then answer it.
yes Rabbit has been around and is known on the net. Rabbit will have a blog or site up soon by popular request. (famous Rabbit) But has resisted this for long because he feels there is already too much of this. Better we could concentrate humanity a bit more so they could share more of what we all have in common, ideals. From such a start we might come to realise we have no differences beyond opinions. These would be closer thinks Rabbit if all had the right faxcts upon which to base opinions. Please Natalie, join the winning side. We do have the numbers, we are winning. Go to the New Orleans thread and save Rabbit saying more here. It has been said there.
=—- Rabbit
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 6, 2005 at 1:35 AM Natalie, Roger & all DU Apologists
A bit of a Re-post here
Seems I must remind you. I need a couple of answers from youAnswers to questions you have consistently ignored.
When will you answer my two simple questions!
Or when will you LOOK and perceive the face in the mirror!
.
Answer the questions – FACE THE FACTS!ONE: —-
If DU. is no more of a problem than the Background RAD. in bag of fertilizer, or a bit or Lead., As you contend! ——-
ANSWER – WHY cannot we use our Radioactive waste in landfill?
WHY is it an issue???TWO——If you cannot answer Query ONE
WHAT is the Morality of Killing with TOXIC WASTE!If You cannot answer these most simple questions all your arguments and disinformation collapses.
And the Rabbit is right, it is a most egregious “War Crime” for Sure!
Why attempt to defend the indefensible?
You do YOURSELF damage.
And that is banality of evil.Answer!
Cut the Crap – Look in Past the Smoke you have been fed, and Look into the Mirror!and ANSWER! For your own sake ANSWER!
Posted by Eadora on Sep 6, 2005 at 3:48 AM Mr. Salsman,
From your link, which was:
http://ije.oupjournals.org/cgi/content/full/33/1/74
Looking at the free abstract, and reading the conclusion:
” We found no evidence for a link between paternal deployment to the Gulf war and increased risk of stillbirth, chromosomal malformations, or congenital syndromes. Associations were found between fathers’ service in the Gulf war and increased risk of miscarriage and less well-defined malformations, but these findings need to be interpreted with caution as such outcomes are susceptible to recall bias. The finding of a possible relationship with renal anomalies requires further investigation. There was no evidence of an association between risk of miscarriage and mothers’ service in the gulf.”
How does this conclusion support your apparent contention that this study would have somehow changed the Royal Society’s conclusion?
It seems to me to be rather consistent. Not necessarily a total pass, but certainly no support for the level of hysteria we see from some.
Posted by Natalie on Sep 6, 2005 at 4:52 AM No hysteria other than yours child, just answer the Rabbit and stop embarrassing yourself.
Cannot ignore something as big as this forever.
Not even if we are “not exactly open minded” dear girl.
You have expressed opinions. Rabbit has raised one fact which relates very directly to your opinion, Eadora another, they are facts, they do reflect on the stance you have displayed from word go. You must either deal with them or nothing else you say looks to be anything than avoiding facts.
You want to talk about opinions, yet you won’t put yours to the test. The test of how does it stack up against an irrefutable fact.
If you can’t recognise a calm patient and immeasurably superior soul when he is addressing you, labelling him a looney is lunacy.
Have you ever seen a child trying to best an adult in an argument?
Give your opinion on how the Wikipedia entry relates to DU usage by a supposedly superior nation.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 6, 2005 at 5:38 AM Natalie, stop w*nking. The Royal society was one out of more than five hundred references and Rabbit pointed out that they of all scientific groups would bend over backwards for the military. You know nuthin Babe!
If that’s your point of contention, it ain’t worth spit next to the one opinion I’m asking you to formulate. You are yet to formulate that opinion. You are resisting Rabbit’s gentle persuasion, compelling you to look at this one real real shiny thing, which is so captivating. The shiny thing Rabbit call it truth, you must but look at it and tell me what you call it Nat. Then Natalie tell Rabbit what opinion you are left with upon some reflection on not just this but all my firm but gentle admonitions. Rabbit knows you are slipping, your soul is not yet dead, that is why Rabbit knew you not the Colonel. (Maybe Captain?) Just a joke, see, Rabbit is a funny thing, looks a bit funny, moves in a weird way and seems to be able to move almost like magic its so quick. But Rabbit not has time for arguing with people forever. Rabbits not live as long as people think they will. Rabbit has just few short years to learn all there is and make it work. Rabbit has no time for most of your foibles and fears. You have but one small problem as a species. You lost the ability, if you ever had it, to recognise true facts and base your opinions on these. You forgot to define your ideals and let others do it for you. Why would you pay anyone to to tell you what you should be dying and killing for. Don’t you already know those few ideals Rabbit has mentioned are all there is. There is no mystery you religious nuts. No spook god in your image or anyone elses. If Rabbit as simple as humans he thinks god is just a bigger version of him who lives longer. You for example.
You are not God. Rabbit knows God must be so big and live for so long he cannot be more or less like the whole universe. No where God will be more than somewhere else. He bigger is than our Rock drifting in space. Why any God would see one side of the Rock’s inhabitantas as any different to those from the other side makes no sense to Rabbit.
So stop taking about science and religion as if these things are ideals, they are not.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 6, 2005 at 5:54 AM I’m not sure you understand my point, Rabbit. You cited the Royal Society link first. I pointed out that their conclusions on DU tend to support the camp that says it’s not really much of a concern. I was flabbergasted that you posted the link, thus my question about shipping internationally. BTW, your first two links on that post were expired or incorrect, unless perhaps it was me.
Mr. Salsman then posted a link to a study that I assume he thought did not support the Royal Society’s conclusions. I pointed out that they pretty much did.
Are the United Nations resolutions listed on Wikipedia binding? Does it suprise you that a body composed of so many corrupt, oppressive, anti-American dictators that can’t decide on a definition of terrorism would vote to classify one of our most effective weapons/defenses illegal?
Are you saying we have broken codified international law in using DU weapons? I’m no more a lawyer than I am a scientist, but I don’t think so.
Now you don’t want to talk about science?
Posted by Natalie on Sep 6, 2005 at 8:05 AM Natalie you are starting to gibber. Rabbit simply cut and pasted a few of the links from the Wikipedia site. The DU issue is thoroughly documented history and not some new debate you are buying into. You are patently trying to create doubt where there is none. You have failed to address the one FACT, instead you try and waffle around it. The United Nations and several other bodies involved with what is a world wide acceptance of the fact that DU weaponry constitues a WAR CRIME. There doesn’t have to be anything more than “ONCE”, your regime falls, and it is going down the gurgler now, cow. Don’t warble on when nobody, except maybe yourself can take you seriously.
All it takes is JUNTA to fall. Resolutions merely reported in WIKIPEDIA, but it has more than enough links for you to verify the quote.
The quote makes the World Opinion about this. The world, as the majority of the World will define itself, chickens, will look to these resolutions which you will note were passed and have actually been strengthened since I might add.
They will then hold the people who authorised, carried out and supported these attacks accountable. You do not have to be a lawyer. You will be able to hire one, or one will otherwise be appointed for you. For this itself you should be grateful, because right now many people who have done far less than you are being held, without charge, without contact with their families, or even decent conditions in which to spend their time between torture sessions. By the Junta you so openly, brazenly support. Or at least you slyly support their most inhumane act so far, the wickedest most insane act of long term genocide in recorded history.
Would you like to give us your name, something Rabbit never asked of anyone yet. Would you like to attach your name to the list of known supporters, (propagandists they’ll probably call you, but Rabbit will be polite), of the US military use of Depleted Uranium Weapons in contravention of Interneational treaties and lord knows how many individual countries laws.
If you are cool with that even Rabbit will have to take you seriously, he will see if he can find anyway to explain such a crazy act.
Rabbit no lawyer either. He has been arrested, been locked up years before getting to court only to have charges thrown out, always was lies, could prove it but we have little more justice than America these days. Knows he does how much fun it isn’t, even when innocent you are.
Consult with a lawyer first, but unless you will risk your life on the chance that you are wrong, why should you be allowed to cheerlead for others to do the same.
Check Fact, Give stance.
Put your ass on the line you vicious vixen, or get the hell off a forum in which you have ceased to be more than a minor amusement for Rabbit now. There will always be enough archives around, stored for decades to come no matter what your crazy bosses pull off.
We’ll retrieve enough so that your antics will live on for the benefit of all.
Do you want to take a risk for the sake of your “cause” Nuclear Nat?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 6, 2005 at 9:13 AM Just a guess but it will soon be proven either way. The only Corrupt (BY US standards)Dictators who could be called oppressive, are actually the only sort of support the US gets in the UN these days. Everybody else is anti US for good reason as we will establish as soon as you grow a spine or, take back your conscience. If you can sell that so cheaply, Rabbit wonders what else you have on the shelf?
and how much?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 6, 2005 at 9:18 AM Natalie? Ramjet? That’s a long break guys. Surely you have conferred with the Pentagon Lawyers by now. Surely you are ready to put your lives on the line for those soldiers you were so worried we might put in danger with our words. Or maybe you were not so sure after all?
Maybe you were both prepared to con others into sticking their hand into the fire but no way would you take a chance with your own precious lives.
Why is it after you have argued every fact, source and brought up every form of smoke and mirrors an admittedly poverty stricken agency can muster, why is it that at the sight of one, irrevocable FACT. You turn and scuttle away rather than face it and give an opinion.
Strange considering you came on this thread so sure that your opinions were valuable and sacred.
Government Shills!
Rabbit reminds all humans that opinions should never be much different from others’ assuming all have same ideals. Opinions could never be worth dying for unless they are based on fact. Fact will always combat opinions if there is a conflict. An argument based on opinion without any agreed upon facts is unwinnable.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 7, 2005 at 12:21 AM Rabbit,
You neglected to answer my very specific question which was: Has the U.S. broken international law by using DU weapons? When I asked the question, it didn’t make much sense to me that it would have, but I honestly didn’t know for sure. Now my initial suspicions are confirmed even by an anti-DU source:
Depleted Uranium - Status in international humanitarian law:
“No international treaty currently bans the production or use of DU weapons. Indeed, DU weapons are not chemical or biological weapons, therefore they cannot be considered to be illegal under the 1972 Biological Weapons Convention and the 1996 Chemical Weapons Convention. They are not nuclear weapons either and thus cannot be banned under the 1970 Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. However….....”
(we think it should be because a bunch of biased flawed studies and politically motivated leftists say so)
” .........Although DU weapons are not illegal, their use goes against basic principles of international humanitarian law as (1) they have the POTENTIAL to contaminate groundwater reserves and pollute the air (2) they have the POTENTIAL to cause cancer and have other long- term negative health effects on combatants and civilians. Moreover, the use of anti-tank DU weapons and bunker buster DU-tipped bombs on above ground civilian targets in the centre of Baghdad during the war increased urban populations’ exposure to DU, which can only exacerbate the POTENTIAL negative effects of DU on civilians. This is why MANY PEOPLE BELIEVE that DU should be made illegal under international customary law.”
http://www.idust.net/Tutorial/DBish003.htm
So what we have here is a bunch of people BELIEVING du SHOULD be illegal, and IMHO basing their belief on a lot of false notions and flawed studies. Well, a lot of people believe a lot of things should be illegal or legal, but that doesn’t make them so. To say that the U.S. is guilty of war crimes for using DU is a little like saying the state of Texas is guilty of murder for executing death row inmates.
It sounds good to some, but it would be laughed out of court. There can be no war crime if using DU is not illegal. The state of Texas can’t be found guilty of murder because it is not illegal to execute convicted murderers in Texas.
But the problem anti-DUers are having is proving that DU is sufficiently dangerous to warrant classification along the likes of chemical, biological and actual nuclear weapons. There are too many studies by too many real honest-to-goodness scientists that say otherwise.
The problem anti-DUers have is that their websites look like this:
http://www.mindfully.org/Nucs/2004/DU-Secret-Nuclear-War14sep04.htm
and this:
http://www.barremore.net/depleted-uranium-kills.html
While I guess what you could call pro-DU literature look like this:
http://www.sandia.gov/news-center/news-releases/2005/def-nonprolif-sec/snl-du usand.pdf
and this:
http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/library/randrep/du/mr1018.7.chap2.html
(warning….long and boring)
There is a reason for the difference. The reason is that one side relies largely on emotion and scare-mongering to advance their POV, and the other side relies solely on facts, data, and the conclusions that follow. Heck, even the links you guys provide destroy your own case.
Don’t try to infer anything by frequency of posting. I’m glad you are in a position to have apparently so much time to debate on “In These Times”. Sadly, I do not.
P.S. I’ve been enjoying the exchange on the New Orleans thread between you and my other two alter-egos….scorp and Thinky….. when I have the time, that is. ;-)
Posted by Natalie on Sep 7, 2005 at 7:19 AM Corrections to above URLs that ended up with spaces or some such error.
Mindfully:
http://tinyurl.com/88w6gSandia:
http://tinyurl.com/85arkGulflink:
http://tinyurl.com/c8954
Posted by Natalie on Sep 7, 2005 at 7:41 AM No Natalie, you are full of it. The answer to the question is yes. How simple was that, didn’t know you hadn’t got it yet that’s all.
Rabbit does indeed believe the US is breaking international law. Notice, no capitals, that is because as Rabbit fully understands.
There is no International Law by Rabbit’s understanding, he not a lawyer either. What happens is you will be arrested and tried according to various things which have been dealt with adequately by the WIKIPEDIA entry, no matter how much you think you can twist the language to avoid actually telling the truth.
You are not likeable, you are are cowardly female dog. Rabbit doesn’t even care whether you believe you can and probably will be brought before some world court someday. Careful pushing the issue too much my dear or you may attract someone who is a lawyer, to fully set the record straight, on how it can happen. Would you like that, Rabbit can soon find some professional input on this. Actually Natalie most people, including Rabbit probably expect you have been conferring with a lawyer on this all this time, there is such a transparency to you. This is probably why you are still ducking, and yet you must be so determined to fulfil “the mission” that you are sailing closer to the wind, putting yourself in more danger than is normally your want.
Rabbit does not care what you believe about International Bans on Depleted Uranium. If you really believe the line you have never once stopped pushing, then put your foul, inhumane carcass on the line, on the basis of thesmall chance you are wrong. Come on you blasted toadie, you have nothing, no credibility, not a single established fact which begins to negate any important fact raised by anyone on this thread. Now is your chance to win it all back, with a single throw of the dice.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 7, 2005 at 9:49 AM You, Nuclear Natalie, have accused compasionate and decent people of putting ‘your’, troops at risk by defending their right to be at least screened for what most sane people now believe is wrong with more than 250, 000 of them. Australia did it to our troops in the Gulf War. Ours are sick too and being screwed over by the military. But the issue was brought out, our military has withdrawn from using them. They are no longer on the table for us, we are not perfect but nobody can call my country for war crimes beyond supporting Bush so far.
So Nuclear Natalie. Just tell us your name. You have already with your disgusting cheerleading dance of death admitted your role in the perpetration of what we can agree to disagree on for now, is a war crime, under international treaties and various National laws.
Put your carcass on the line instead of somebody elses, you can’t, you won’t, because you are a false, lying harbinger of death. You are a monster, and Rabbit knows he is talking into the mouth of the monster, the real monster behind you. We see you. See the Rabbit and know you are beaten. Come out into the light, I won’t come into the shadows to fight you. It is the light which is your worst enemy. Rabbit knows whjat Vampires hate most.
Nuclear Natalie the Vampire cheerleader of death. Put up, or shut up.
I, Captain Natalie ........ agree I have seen the Rabbit’s words and believe in my cause yet.
That should be enough, all we need is your name. Rabbit has as yet made no effort to trace you but might just check a hunch if you give him no choice.
Rabbit doesn’t take any more notice of your links, they are more smoke and mirros, so please stop pretending you are debating. You lost the debate, the first time two or three pages ago. Just give us your name, you’ve already proven you’ve seen the truth, you don’t have to believe it, since when was that a defence for breaking any law?
Come on Nuclear Natalie,
grow a spine,
or borrow mine,
but stand up and prove
that you was not lying.If you do, Rabbit will donate the first dollar for your defence if it should turn out you were wrong. If you are right Natalie, imagine how overjoyed all those troops will be when they find out you stood up so bravely for their rights to use DU weaponry.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 7, 2005 at 9:50 AM “The international outcry over claims that the use of depleted uranium during the Kosovo intervention caused leukemia in 24 European members of the peacekeeping force is unfounded. Numerous studies of depleted uranium—the byproduct of the process of extracting fuel for nuclear reactors and weapons from uranium—have not found any link between its use by the military and any form of cancer or other health problems. The controversy that erupted after the soldiers were found to have leukemia is threatening to undermine the alliance structure in Europe. It is imperative that the facts about depleted uranium are not lost in the debate.”
“FACT: The health risks posed by the military’s use of depleted uranium are extremely low.”
http://www.heritage.org/Research/NationalSecurity/EM721.cfm
Posted by Natalie on Sep 8, 2005 at 4:52 PM WAR CRIME _ FACT
Put up your own life on the basis of your FACTS, cowardly Nuclear Natalie. Stop risking the troops lives and nudreds oif thousands of others’
Your “game” has long since been exposed, note Rabbit has been vindicated and Re-instated and you gave Rabbit all he needed when the only other posts pulled were the Unnatural Disaster thread, where you and your beloved nuclear waste were in danger of being maligned.
Didn’t that little stunt backfire Beastmen.
Natalie if you can’t amass more than you have in credibility for your cause, with all that apparatus behind you, if you have been so totally trounced and your only response is to keep digging deeper, why should all those people have their lives put at risk on the basis of your words.
Your words are lies, you know them to be or you or Roger would have been prepared to put your name down as a supporter of the use of Depleted Uranium. You took quite some time to return after this became impossible to maintain. If your lawyers had told you it was safe to put your name to this, you would have done. Nuclear Natalie you would and probably do anything for your masters. Maybe that gives you a sense of worth. Like everything else about you then, that is also an illusion.
If none of the CHEERLEADERS of DEATH want to be known ib light of potential legal action from those world courts you are so contemptuous of, where is your money, GUTLESS SHILLS.
Rabbit posted your epitaph last night but it got eaten, too bad, you would not have dared to have shown you had even read that much by posting again. Perhaps we’ll save it, Captain Nuclear Natalie.
How much credibility will your full exposure at this point give your cause Natalie?
Answer Eadora’s and Rabbit only questions, stop proselytising to your betters, human beings, and Rabbits.
Gutless cow!
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 9, 2005 at 2:49 AM Quote m_astera:
“Since 9/11, the “terrorist threat” that has been waved at us to induce fear has been that the “terrorists” would explode a “dirty bomb” in one of our major cities, a dirty bomb consisting of conventional explosives laced with radioactive material, e.g. DU. So, we are being threatened with exactly what our government and military are doing to the Iraqis and Afghanis.”
——————
I remember this from the mainstream news…interesting. It’s like trying to scare a child with the “Boogey Man” and then try to convince the same kid that he’s really an OK guy. The pro DU rhetoric on this blog sounds even to this non-scientist more than a little contradictory.
Why not cut and paste this actual article (photo and all) and email it to the people in your address book? You know the ones. They’re soft-hearted and sweet and they’re the ones always forwarding the poignant stories, jokes, etc. to everyone in their huge address book. Ask them to help get the word out to the general public. The media isn’t doing it (for whaever reason) and I’m sure not a huge number of them are bloggers so they probably aren’t aware of this hazard.
Write: “Protect our soldiers and the future offspring of our soldiers. If you agree, forward to at least 10 people.” Then watch how fast bad new travels. I think people are more receptive to this kind of info right now anyway, so why not?
Posted by shaz on Sep 9, 2005 at 5:04 AM Good point, shaz. I’ve advocated for the same. If there is indeed a substantial and overriding danger from the use of DU, I want to know about it. I sincerely want the topic to make it out into the glaring media spotlight.
—————-
From what I’ve read though, I sincerely at this point think that the danger from DU is being deliberately exaggerated and overblown for propaganda purposes. But hey, I use to think that energy from the sun caused the Earth to warm up. I know now that was crazy talk.
————-
“A World Health Organization medical team visited Basra and proposed a study to see why so many people in the city were so sick. But Saddam Hussein refused.”
————-
“Unless that study is done, it is going to be very difficult to try to understand what is behind the large number of people being ill,” Kilpatrick said. No tank battles occurred in Basra or other population centers during the Gulf War, DU is too heavy to have blown into Basra from nearby areas, he added.”
————-
“A half-dozen major studies, done by government and non-government agencies in the United States and Europe, have failed to find health problems associated with DU.”
————-
“Taking into account the pathways and realistic scenarios of human exposure, radiological exposure to depleted uranium could not cause a detectable effect on human health,” a European Union study concluded in 2001.”
—————
“A 2001 WHO study found that DU’s hazards are “likely to be very small.” A RAND Corporation study in 1999 and another 2001 project funded by the European Parliament concurred.”
—————-
“The Defense Department is monitoring about 90 Gulf War veterans who were exposed to high levels of DU. Most have DU fragments in their bodies as a result of friendly fire incidents.”
—————-
“No ill effects have been found so far.”
—————-
http://www.post-gazette.com/World/20030326depleted0326p7.asp
—————
Spaces in urls may have to be closed due to an apparent error in this message board. Also, paragraphs are no longer allowed to be separated by spaces so everything ends up being one big unreadable block.
Posted by Natalie on Sep 9, 2005 at 5:30 AM Hi Shaz,
You got it in one. Did you read the whole of this admittedly long thread, see the Pentagon in it’s full, outed, glory?
This thread is actually representing the thin edge of the wedge thinks Rabbit. Why are they so desperate, notice the times taken between recent responses, compared to when they think they on a roll. They are in Check but are damned if they will call Mate. Why not wonders Rabbit?
Rabbit believes the whole thread should be seen as a breach of the weakest column of this most foul temple of theirs.
Something which they think is so important, probably is, you know?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 9, 2005 at 6:02 AM When you do Shaz, you might let Nuclear Natalie, who obviously assumes you have not read anything before now, (she’s a bit simple mate, doesn’t realise yet this isn’t like normal conversation, it’s all recorded).
Natalie, is a sweet innocent all American Girl, who is concerned for her countrymen and just wants to know the truth about this pesky DU issue she’s been hearing about.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 9, 2005 at 7:10 AM Natalie, if you wish to discuss other issues you mention, (electric universe, my aren’t we well informed), Rabbit would be interested. You fascinate Rabbit, and as he’s said likes you in a straange morbid sort of way. Rabbit has his dark desires too, though they do not involve killing or maiming anybody, in that we are different.
Not here though, where it is the Rabbit’s unfortunate duty to have to put you to the sword. You are a fascinating female, and Rabbit is sorry to have been somewhat course in his language when indeed you deserved a more elevated form of insult. It took Rabbit a while to realise that it was just the military mind imposing on your more worthy feminine qualities, which made you seem male.
Natalie you and your friends are about to be put to the test, somebody is going to read this long thread in which you have tried to bury the truth, and they are going to call you out.
The truth is in there, Rabbit doubts there is much more to be said on this issue than is contained within this thread.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 9, 2005 at 7:28 AM Nuclear Natalie, This is the sword, darling. If you would do Rabbit the courtesy of stepping up like a lady and taking taking it like a big girl, Rabbit will greet you with a wriggling nose, ears twitching in excitement and anticipation, as Rabbits are want to do, when they say something interesting or shiny maybe.
But step up you must, for you have fought like a trooper and are to be commended for it. But alas sweet girl, for sweet you are, much prettier than old Rabbit, alas as Rabbit promised, it is his solemn duty, as RABBIT to have to do this.
It cannot be said by anybody that Rabbit has not given you ample opportunity to make a case for the opinion you have never truly been prepared to articulate, not once, despite ample proddings and much patience and gentle rebuff from Rabbit, have not yet said what you mean.
“I Nuclear Natalie think it is a good idea that we use depleted uranium weapons and if there is a debate about the safety or anything that’s OK too, we can go ahead and do both at the same time can’t we?”
NO NATALIE RABBIT DOES NOT THINK THAT IS A VERY GOOD IDEA.
Rabbit does not feel his message could be misunderstood at this point about anything or everything.
Rabbit will say no more on this.
We have seen a LT COLONEL ROGER HELBIG outed early on for his role in the US Military DEPLETED URANIUM propaganda machine.
We have had brief visits from a couple of others as closely related to you and Ramjet as likely.
If your intention is to decieve Natalie then you have and will always have one ongoing problem. The Internet is an enormous resource and as much as that is a fantastic boon to knowledge, so too can it be a dreadful enemy.
The art of war does not need to be defined by Rabbit, who as an ARIES and a damned strong one is a warrior Rabbit make no mistake. Rabbit is a Pyrotechnic Rabbit, but thinks best to get the Party over and have fireworks for nice display on a better day, if we can.
MORE..
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 9, 2005 at 11:14 AM Like you, Natalie, Rabbit has some very simple but absolute ideals. Like all ideals they exist only in our minds unless we make them a reality and learn how to defend them against all comers.
The only people who would attack your ideals is a person who felt you had attacked theirs. That is almost but not quite Bush speak.
Your Paradigm may shift a little Natalie, if you consider this. The above statement is absolutely true, especially if we know what our ideals are. The words have always said things like “What I would die for”, or"what I would kill for”.
Yes that is an ideal, and that is exactlty why you are fighting innocent people and waging an endless war of ideals. Yes a WAR of ideals.
BULL, CRAP GARBAGE. This is why you are fighting, you are fighting for your ideals, as they are intrepreted to you by your evil, yes, they are evil, when the mask slips and you see what we see, you will be horror struck by how grim and obscene a beast it is. That isn’t Bushler, it is the whole Rotten JUNTA and the apparatus that even now has backup plans in place to slide a Democrat who will beaccepted as a saviour after this fiasco and worse. But business as usual.
“A War of ideals” they are the Emperor’s words. How can anyone have a war of ideals, we all have the same.
IDEALS According to RABBIT: again…LOVE, FOOD, HEALTH, SHELTER, SECURITY, and a happy future for our children.
Rabbit will die for or Kill to protect any of the above in the absolutest sense. He would not do either for anything else.
Nor would you.Essential truths have been turned into slogans, and sound about as convincing.
But they are truths yet. You just have to define your ideals properly and then the whole thing makes a lot more sense.
Since it is easy to understand that nobody will ever stop fighting if you threaten any one of those ideals enough, so how can any war be truly won, until everybody feels their IDEALS are at least within reach again, with no more than the every day hardships of avoiding being eaten or finding enough to eat.
Rabbit lives a short life, not as long as you. He has no time to waste. He has exactly the same ideals as you and all Earth life. From the simple ameoba or funny snail, to the tiger or birds and snakes. we all hold the above ideals as the primary purpose for existence. If anyone tells us we will help ensure any of these ideals by threatening those of somebody else, the we know they must be lying, or mistaken. The only wquestion if somebody else attacks us is, “Why do these people feel we are a threat to their ideals?”
Rabbit knows this is all the answer needed to end the problems which you people have made and for which you have no solutions.
One simple question to be asked everytime your leaders, religious or political tell you you must risk your life or suffer in any way. WHY?
I already know my ideals, so give me proof that my ideals are under threat before I will risk losing everything, forever.
Rabbit knows that their are Muslims who have had their ideals hijacked by their leaders too, but that doesn’t mean that we can’t recognise this truth and put it to work.
Explain this simple rule to the Iraqi’s, as we leave, and either way they will not follow us back to our homes which they never asked for anyway.
This is not the end of the matter of Iraq, or Depleted Uranium Weapons. It can be the beggining of the solution if you will face the Rabbit’s words of advice with the humility which frankly it occurs to Rabbit you strange creatures aught. How sad it took a Rabbit to find the key.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 9, 2005 at 12:00 PM Natalie, That last bit was for the world my pet. It is time to put you out of your misery.
Rabbit has not until about a half hour ago done the following. He has played it by ear. Relied on Rabbit intuition and Rabbit magic only. He must admit he hasn’t gotten all details in place, exactly, but all things considering Rabbit has not done too badly.
She can see the blade now, be swift, Rabbit, she suffers. Finally acting on that Hunch Rabbit mentioned a while back, about two hours ago now. Rabbit put Natalie Helbig into the Google and Ping. What magic is the Internet.
What is better, try putting either of those names and Depleted Uranium into Google. Or just a few loose terms thrown about many times in this thread, which might concievably relate to the subject at hand, see what the top entries are.
Is this enough? No she is still gagging, Rabbit thinks she is still conscious, so again he must strike. Natalie, when you are ready by all means fill in the details and save Rabbit’s time. How exactly are you related, to Lt Colonel Roger Helbig?
Natalie Helbig, how recent is the picture?
Like Rabbit said, you are prettier than Rabbit.
Be gracious now, you know that is Checkmate, children.
Rabbit loves you all. He loves his ideals more than any of your goofy religions or politics.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 9, 2005 at 12:00 PM Natalie, Rabbit has gazed long into your eyes, his own as insrutable as ever, but into yours a magic rabbit can peer deep and see much.
Considering What Rabbit can see from no more than a few, deliberately decietful words on your part, how much more do you think the Rabbit see’s now that he has gazed upon your likeness. No way can Rabbit see a wizened up old Vampire like Roger owning such a youthful bride. No Rabbit actually expected the Roger had not mated and speculated upon this very fact and there all along was the reason for that strange intuition which is so easy to recognise, yet often not so easy in interpretation.
There you were all along Rabbit had the proof right in front of his wriggly little nose. Roger Helbig could in fact produce such a child a your tragic self.
You and Rabbit knows what Rabbit means.
You are still shaken and shocked from your first meeting with Rabbit. We had fun you and Rabbit. We danced the sweet dance of two souls who hated yet longed for each other with all our hearts. Yet as is so strangely constant with all the best things we were opposites. Longed each for his or her selfish ends.
Rabbit longs for your soul. He has taken you as you have offered yourself to Rabbit. He has used you as you have tried to use others, yet more gently. He has given fair warnings of his intentions, has offered you a Fig Branch but you have made him beat you with it instead.
Rabbit has been sweet in between having to bite you for your own good. Yet you have persisted to Challenge Rabbit. Whatever soulsource rules your destiny it is immaterial. Rabbit is not Tiger or Dragon, but nor are you. Don’t know who’s you are at this point but looks like Pig’s, (PIG is nice).
If you will persist in challenging Rabbit we may have to explore deeper matters you and Rabbit. It may not be comfortable for you, but you feel like a strong girl. Having Roger Ramjet for a Dad would give a Girl a bit of Back-bone.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 9, 2005 at 3:17 PM Natalie,
Do you even know anyone that has Gulf War Syndrome? If you did, maybe you’d have some empathy. I met someone whose husband had it. The symptoms are many. I guess I’m not too surprised to find that DU is probably at the bottom of this, in fact the symptoms are starting to make sense. Plus, it’s invisible. No wonder soldiers couldn’t figure what they were exposed to! And now we hear there’s been an elevated number of birth defects…I think we all of us know what causes that!
Posted by shaz on Sep 9, 2005 at 3:58 PM GhostRabbit,
I was wondering what the feasiblity would be of making little landmines out of depleted uranium.That way not only could we pollute the countryside of nations we invade,but we could also cause some radioactive maiming.I mean,if we’re going to inflame these people with our irresponsiblity,let’s go for broke.What say you,Natalie?I bet you’d say yes if Darth Cheney proposed it.Bush would have proposed it,but he’s busy debating the theory of whether or not the earth is flat.
“looks flat in all them pitchers!”
Posted by wwoods on Sep 9, 2005 at 6:55 PM The function of depleted uranium munitions is to kill tanks, not pollute the countryside. Read the extensive Sandia report based on actual experimentation to determine the extent of the DU contaminated zone around an armored vehicle which has been hit with a DU armor penetrator.
http://www.sandia.gov/news-center/news-releases/2005/def-nonprolif-sec/snl-du usand.pdf : “An Analysis of Uranium Dispersal and Health Effects Using a Gulf War Case Study”
Posted by Ramjet on Sep 9, 2005 at 7:50 PM Wwoods, don’t hurt Rabbits feelings reminding him of his banned status, and thus need to rely on this silly handle. Ghost indeed. See what the Rabbit Ghost did with Dragon and Vampire on this thread.
Perhaps prayer will bring the Rabbit back to flesh and blood Rabbit of Oz.
If it’s good enough for the Katrina victims, well heh, Rabbit was never one to push in lines, he’ll wait his turn.
Wwoods Rabbit believes you are onto something with that DU mine thingy. He knows a few people who might be very interested, and they may yet make an appearance to give us their personal viewpoint. Natalie is still a bit scratched and sore, Rabbit can ride em a bit rough, but she did keep coming back for more. She underestimated Rabbit, most do. Have a look under the funny little tail, he’s go a pretty puny toggle, but he’s got an excellent pair of well presented knackers.
Rabbit loves Natalie and Rabbit thinks Natalie loves Rabbit.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 9, 2005 at 8:10 PM Hooray Daddy is back. What have you got in the sack for the kids today Dad?
““Daddy has brought you some nice Depleted Uranium with cheese on top.”“
Roger, do you think your presence here is well advised?
From what pinnacle of credibility, after six pages of a worse defeat for your DU cause tha the current US rout in Iraq, from what height do you dare address your betters, Rabbits and others for example.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 9, 2005 at 8:14 PM Roger you would not at this stage concieve of the kindness fate has bestowed upon you. My computer, has eaten a retort to you old boy which took all of twenty minutes to tap out with my wee paws. It was a Masterpiece, in an otherwise fairly drab artistic career.
Nothing Rabbit ever does again will come close and henceforth Rabbit shall only aspire for another glimpse. Such is life, the best laid plans of Snails and Rabbits as they say.
So you shall have to settle for some drab description of how it looked.
Depleted Uranium weapons, Dirty Bombs, Nuclear waste. Unless you count killing things better and killing and maiming everything as well as more of them for much longer and not just them their babies. Even down to all Baby Rabbits, my own offspring, the only real time capsule of any species which can cross the millions and even billions of years of each species is DNA. It is there you will find your origins.
It has taken our planet’s life force several million years to reach you lot of genetically enhanced apes once again. For you to have progressed to the point of your own ruination yet again to maybe pick up since the last time, around in your quest for dominance of everything. You are in control of nothing. You are but tinkerers in the greater plans of races far beyond you. Some beyond also they like layers of the onion. Some so far from you they would engulf your small concept of god.Human God, they all think they belong to one God group or the other.
All human gods look the same to Rabbit.
Just bigger humans, who live a lot bloddy longer. For some strange reason even though Rabbit never SAW A GOD move yet, they have caused more and bloodier wars than even money and loot. They still do. That is why Rabbit does not think much of God people.
Rabbit does not mind the gods, they stand there like big humans who don’t make as much noise or smell as odd. They live quietly sometimes right where Rabbits are among their most common visitors. Rabbit’s mostly like the Gods. It’s the People and what they seem to think this otherwise bevenolent or at least indifferent being wants of them that is the problem.Humans, who else, got this blind and stupid and cowardly and mostly, all of it just because they had forgotten how to define their own ideals and thus to choose an intelligent path when confronted by a reality, like the fox, or the Bomb, or Hurricanes. You talk about lemmings. HUH.
Guess what, lemmings at least keep their occasional weirdness down to self appointed groups of nuts who want to try swimming all the way out to god, because they believe that is where he is hiding from them, after he goes down into the sea at night.
Unlike humans they can’t get the rest of the species to follow them up to heaven, to ask god if he had any answers to all the BIG problems of life.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 9, 2005 at 9:27 PM Roger before you stoop to another of your long, smoke and mirror rants, just to ruin a lovely finale the Rabbit shall let you in on a little secret.
Many people have been sendind Rabbit e-mails and Rabbit has been vindciated in all his posts to you , and everywhere you and Natalie manged to handily Tip Rabbit off about who was who. If you missed it this was pages ago
None of these people has been posting, for which you should be grateful, in some ways.
If you do not understand the significance of much of what has gone on before now, you have been several steps behind Rabbit, busy Shooting yourself, and blaming others when it was your Bull in a china shop attitude, tripping about us wee creratures here on the ground that was making all the fuss.
You set out by Basically shooting off your own leg, left one, as Rabbit recalls, when you first saw Rabbit from afar.
——Wierd thought Rabbit.,..^^.. but beyond mentioning it to you at the time Rabbit let it be, you were a strange Bird from the start and Rabbit wondered what, this looks more like Eels. He said as much and that is when you shot that limb off which rabbit would not have mentioned again were it not for the fact that you immediately began to blame Rabbit for your missing Leg. Rabbit’s swears that You Lt Colonel Roger Helbig, blew your own leg off.Many other crippling injuries suffered by your cause in it’s various guises were at your own hand yet you persist in demonstrating the same military genius and strategy, coupled with flexibility and intelligence which has made America what it is TODAY.
Everybody saying the same things of you and whereas it has been your downfall, as with Natalie, you can use your own words to further hoist yourself on your own Petard.
Another man pointed out the possibility you were an Eel which had already occurred to Rabbit and since then as now you never read more than one fifth of what you reply to so when the next thing you saw was Rabbit Looking for an Eel you became so startled you loosed off your best shot and took out your best leg to boot.
In so doing you not only proved yourself to be an Eel, but a very big and desperate one.
Thinks Rabbit, what does Eel value so highly it guards with such fierce abandon. What are you up to Eel, thinks Rabbit, who knows a bit about Eels.
So out comes the collection of old and somehow magical, battered Rabbit collection of rods and reels, and bells and hooks and bait, for Eels. Along the way he casually used a couple of loose Dittoeheads ewho were just lying about this lovely site. He did not hurt them and is working at letting them back out into the wild as soon as they are well.
Well, better anyway.Up comes the Eels, one two three. “Juicy big eel”, “sweet little dodgy eel” and “shy reluctant eel”. All in the same bucket.
How cool is that says the Rabbit, and does a little Dance.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 9, 2005 at 10:07 PM Now for an encore Roger, after having aquainted yourself with the possibilities inherant in Rabbits next and hopefully final words to you, please finish the following si=ong for Rabbit, he just can’t remeber the words, and as id Rabbit’s want he may spend twenty, minutes, an hour, maybe a day, who knows and if nothing else he will have to make up some words to finish,.. unless you can refresh Rabbbit’s memory and tell us the words to your theme song, Roger Ramjet.
How does it go, “Roger Ramjet and his eagles fighting for your freedoms…...”
How does it go Colonel, sing please for Rabbit and all the nice people. it is the least you could do for us while we wait to die in the world you dirtbag are trying to create.
What’s the problem you old bas*ard has your life been such a dispointement to you that you resent anybody else having a turn.
The simple fact is there is only so much earth to go around. We can’t all be here at once, so we accept the symmetry of the cycle of life for what it is, affirmation that we came from somewhere and are to all intents and purposes going back to the same place. Why then does it matter how we our lives while we are ‘downhere’?
It matters for all those who are still down here and to their children too.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 9, 2005 at 10:08 PM Not every other creature on this planet has the same desire to shortcircuit the process to meeting gos by swimming out to sea nd burning the island behind them.
So if you all want to go having an Armageddon or Whatever you think those big peaceful slabs of stone are telling you to do, how about you all just jump into the bloody Ocean, swim out to Sea, follow that last lot of lemmings. they swore they saw God calling them out to the this time and they are off.
———PLEASE…^^... PEOPLE IF YOU ARE GOING TO DO THIS, DON’T TORCH THE ISLAND. SOME OF US HEATHENS, RABBITS AND OTHERS WOULD LIKE TO STAY BEHIND IF YOU DON’T MIND. WE’LL TAKE A CHANCE, YOUR GODS WON’T BE VERY HAPPY WITH US.—Rabbit, expects they will probably be staying back here too, in which case the Rabbits, Babies and his friends babies, will be here to keep your gods company over the long millenia until you lot are round to pay us a visit again.
—-Sincereley Rabbit
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 9, 2005 at 10:17 PM Rabbit, I have to congratulate you on finally tracking me down. But please don’t tell Roger. You see, we were married about fifteen years ago in a ceremony so secret that even Roger wasn’t invited.
I treasure the perpetual newness of our relationship, and I know that actually meeting him (and he may insist on it if he knew) would put that most wonderful of feelings in danger of dissipating.
Posted by Natalie on Sep 11, 2005 at 7:30 AM Finally isn’t the word really Nat. Rabbit indicated that he detected something military about you and never expected more than he revealed at the time. Finally he simply on a whim popped your name and Roger’s into google and posted an hour later after he had stopped giggling and had a cup of tea. Rabbit was pleased to see his instincts and intuition were in good working order.
Rabbit is just warming up in this regard, thrives on challenge does Rabbit.
Now be nice and don’t mess up Rabbit’s nice finale, and we shall dance again my sweet, but not here.You have lost this round fair and square.
Rabbit has been remarkably kind and never done more than beat you with the flat edge of the sword, twas always sharp enough to sever thy head from thy dainty trunk, mythologically speaking.
Instead Rabbit has let you trip over the silly clothing you brought with you for such a perilous and uncertain journey. Secure in the knowledge that the best learn quickly. so stand up fair maid and let us dance away until tomorrow. Come show Rabbit you are more than just a dark heart and a pretty face.
Of Ramjet we shall speak no more, unless Rabbit feels inclined to complete that little ditty as promised, which would be a delight no doubt for those many souls who are helping make this such a high hit on google searching DU. Now would not that be a shame.Would it not be better to be known as the vampire princess, who renownced her evil ways after being rescued by a brave Rabbit, who slew the Dragon which kept you under lock and Key. Rabbit does not even intend to keep you, you may go free sweet child. He would have a harem if he kept all the sweet maids he rescued. Rescuing Maids is really not Rabbit’s work, mostly just Hunting and doing whatever is required to be done with Dragons, and other assorted monsters.
—————-Surely you have heard of Rabbit?..........^^...........
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 11, 2005 at 9:48 AM Rabbitvoz was removed from this website for inappropriate comments on this and at least one other article, but has reincarnated himself as the equally pestilent Ghost Rabbit ..who also should be banned if only for boring the rest of us to death. Anyway, no matter how much he blathers on, he no longer is deemed relevant and this is my final mention of him no matter how much Googling he does. Bye!
Posted by Ramjet on Sep 11, 2005 at 10:59 AM Ramjet has been proven to be a liar who never even reads anything he replies to or he would kwow that Rabbit was re-instated in all his posts because not even Ramjets Lying complaints stood the test.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
You childish little twat of a colonel, you just want the last word , what’s the point since you lack any profile.
..........
If Rabbit ever finds you crawling around the spreading your filth again he will kick your cowardly backside back into the pit of slime you inhabvit with even more pleasure.
.....................
Rabbit specifically requested that your comments be kept up and that he was ambivelant abouyt his earlier remarks as Rabbitvoz anyway. But that yours told an even more important story. Without you LtC Roger Helbig, this thread would not be fraction as important to the anti-DU “crowd” you so abhore.
.................
Dirtbag!...........^^...............
...............
Roger Ramjet and his Eagles Fighting for our Freedoms…..
.............What’s the rest of your theme song COLONEL DEATH?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 11, 2005 at 11:32 AM One last reminder for those who have been foolish enough to waste much time reading Ramjet’s fervent and false bleating, yet missed the essential point that he is a piece of garbage.
Rabbit quotes:
..April 11, 2005—(Oklahoma City) “Individuals on web sites throughout the United States have complained over a period of months about the abusive and aggressive actions of an Air Force Lieut. Colonel named Roger Helbig,” stated Project Censored Award Winning writer Bob Nichols.
“Col. Helbig has consistently misrepresented himself and his participation, voluntarily or on a paid basis, as a “minder” or enforcer for the DOD lie about Uranium Munitions in direct contravention of US Army Regulations and Orders,” Nichols stated.
“Col. Helbig apparently is fervently following the Secret Los Alamos Memo about Uranium Weapons (UW), aka so-called “Depleted Uranium,” instructing personnel to lie about Uranium Weapons to maintain the political viability of continued use of the Genocidal Weapons: “weaponized radioactive and poisonous ceramic uranium oxide gas and dust” in Iraq and throughout Central Asia,” added Nichols.
Nichols stated “Dr. Doug Rokke, Ph.D., is the former Army Officer in charge of the Pentagon’s Depleted Uranium Project. Dr Rokke is a career officer, loyal to the Constitution of the United States of America, not to any political party. He is the man the people of the United States can turn to for “on the level information” about the true nature of Uranium Weapons (UW.)
Dr. Rokke commented, “LTC Roger Helbig, United States Air Force: I would suggest that since you claim to be so knowledgeable about DU and my specific activities during Gulf War 1 and while I was the Director of the U.S. Army Depleted Uranium that you produce the actual official documents, not some comments by Bob Cherry or Ed Battle or Mike Kilpatrick, your bosses up the line, verifying your comments.”
Rokke added “Unless you can do so, please cease and go away. But before you go away you still have not answered; why you, as an United States Air Force officer, refuse to support my / our actions to ensure that United States Department of Defense officials provide medical care to all DU casualties and clean up all environmental contamination as required by AR 700-48 and TB 9-1300-278; and, that medical care is provided to all DU casualties as required by Lt General Ron Peake’s April 29, 2004 order.”
“Will you provide us a public endorsement supporting full compliance of these mandatory actions?”
“Yes” or “No”?
.ROGER RAMJET .....RABBIT is more man than your entire bloodline combined could produce.
—-Not that this is saying much, so are both my sons, at 9 and 14.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 11, 2005 at 11:40 AM What gets me is that using depleted uranium is a war crime. Plain and simple. The first Gulf War in Iraq, Kosovo, Afghanistan, and Iraq again have all been depleted uranium wars.
Where is the outrage on the international level? Has there been any action beyond feeble protests from any other governments?
It seems that people could care less unless it is happening in their own back yard. The thing they have to realise is that this stuff doesn’t go away and the whole planet suffers for it.
Posted by David in Canada on Sep 16, 2005 at 5:08 PM David,
It is nice that you can repeat the anti-DU activist mantra, but unfortunately, the use of DU is NOT a WAR CRIME and that is the fact. I confirmed that fact with the International Court in the Hague when Moret was bragging about her testimony before the kangaroo court in Japan about Afghanistan. I found that the Hague did not recognize that court, nor the kangaroo court subsequently held in Turkey about Iraq. If anyone wants to read about war crimes, go to your local library; most of them have the multi-volume proceedings from World War II. Read just a bit of one of those volumes and learn what a War Crime really is.
Posted by Ramjet on Sep 16, 2005 at 10:31 PM I found this information on the definition of a war crime.
“Defined by the Nuremberg and Tokyo military tribunals and by the United Nations, war crimes include the following: murder, ill treatment or deportation to slave labor of civilians in an occupied territory; murder or ill treatment of prisoners of war; taking and killing hostages; plunder of public or private property; wanton destruction of towns or villages, and devastation not justified by military necessity. Grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions are also considered war crimes.”
“wanton destruction of towns or villages, and devastation not justified by military necessity.” ... seems to cover it.
Posted by David in Canada on Sep 16, 2005 at 11:29 PM And I found this information too. I realise that this is a technical legal matter but come on. The American government is worried about dirty bombs so much they have held Jose Padilla without trial for over 3 years. Yet the American and British governments use similar weapons in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.
” There are two ways to determine if the use of a particular weapon in military operations is illegal. The easiest way is if the weapon is used in violation of a treaty that forbids its use and the State using it is a party to that treaty. If there is no treaty on a specific weapon, then one must determine if the use of that weapon would violate existing rules and principles of binding humanitarian (armed conflict) law. Under these rules (the “weapons test”) – derived from The Hague Conventions, the Geneva Conventions, and all other sources of military law – a weapon may be banned if:
(1) it has harmful effects outside the legal field of battle (the “geography” test);
(2) it has harmful effects after the war is over (the “time” test);
(3) its use is unduly inhuman or causes undue suffering (the “humaneness” test); or
(4) it has a harmful effect on the environment (the “environment” test). The first two tests arise from the requirement that weapons may not be indiscriminate. Because there is no specific weapon treaty forbidding the use of depleted uranium, the illegality of DU must be shown by the second method.Weaponry containing depleted uranium (DU) fails all four tests. ” quoted from http://www.nukewatch.com/du/20030930bthm.html
Posted by David in Canada on Sep 16, 2005 at 11:51 PM So Roger still lurking about, somebody told Rabbit you were still trying to spin the bull on unsuspecting customers.
You have been proven to be working together with Natalie, and an NCO to spin DU lies. We have shown that Natalie is also a HELBIG so she is also now on record. Obviously things got too hot for the Sargent Case (Just a guess) as soon as he was called and if he suddenly pops up here now after so long we’ll know why won’t we Colonel?
You should see some of the e-mails I am getting about you and I believe a friend of mine noticed you lurking somewhere else and called you on it. Gone like the wind, a troll who had been bothering people for ages.
Your games are coming undone.
Now Rabbit suggests you let it rest.
As you can see, nobody is buying.
Best go dig yourself a hole and hide in it. Give Rabbit’s regards to Natalie.
(Now what’s that company she’s working for? Pretty interesting stuff, and so useful to a government internet propaganda machine too.)Rabbit hasn’t posted the name here, but there is a link to it. People are looking into it by the way.
You all have a nice day now.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 17, 2005 at 8:42 AM Talking of organizing to spin lies, the anti-DU movement certainly has done enough of that .. ask Traprock Peace Center why they suddenly took down three pages from their website .. because someone found that they really aren’t what Doug Rokke claimed them to be. David posits that use of DU should be a war crime because David has no accurate scientific knowledge of what DU is or is not. I am backgrounding Sergeant Matthews; I have a FOIA pending with the State of NY Dept of Military and Naval Affairs; I am backgrounding Asaf Durakovic; I am backgrounding Doug Rokke; I defy Rabbit, David, etc. to submit their resumes to the discussion so that we can find out exactly who they are. All I thus far can tell is that they are loud mouthed rabble rousers who bully anyone who disagrees with them. They have no real facts, just the usual anti-DU mantras put out by the charlatans who lead the movement. I intend to expose each of these charlatans for what they are, fakes! So Rabbit, if you really are man and not a mouse, come out of the cold and tell the world exactly who you are and what your qualifications to expound on this list are all about. Somehow, I expect the mouse to stay in his hole and if he does, I shall continue to ignore him.
PS .. I have no formal connection with anyone; I correspond with a number of people on both sides of this issue. I seek out facts and I point out fallacies. Natalie is an individual with whom I have corresponded since we both began posting to this list. I never knew her before .. she is not me under another guise. I am sure enough of my facts to be me and not need to hide as someone else and I have put my e-mail address in a prior posting so if anyone wants to correspond, I will be glad to do so provided that they do not fill my in-box with spam or vitriol.
Posted by Ramjet on Sep 17, 2005 at 9:19 AM -
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