Radioactive Wounds of War

Heh folks this guy is at it under other handles too. Found him calling himself MiddleRoad here thinks Rabbit.

http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/2299/

What a Goose! Do they really promote these kind of donkeys to Lt Colonel in your country?
No wonder Aussies don’t take well to saluting US officers.

mauk2:

Tungsten is far superior, because it’s not pyrophoric it only harms by shrapnel.

In the February 1991 gulf war, less than 200 soldiers ended up with DU shrapnel, but hundreds of thousands were exposed to and inhaled UO3(g) vapor fumes from the 315 tons of DU ordnance used that month, including civilians.

Furthermore, the rats might be an outlier.  To quote from the article you cite, “tungsten coils implanted into ... rabbits rapidly degrade.... However, after four months, no signs of local or systemic toxicity were observed.” (Peuster, et al., Biomaterials, vol. 24 (2003) pp. 393-399.)

I’d rather put just the soldiers at risk than the soldiers and the civilians and their offspring, any day of the week.  The soldiers signed up for war; the civilians and the kids did not.

Plus, shrapnel can often be removed; inhaled uranyl compounds can not.

Quote the Rabbit!
you are actually coming across as a psychopath, since there really isn’t any question that Waste Uranium is VERY BLOODY DANGEROUS, in the long term.

The Rabbit Bites does he not?

mauk2
The US .mil is not immune to loud whining such as the anti-DU folks are good at.  They have, reluctantly, worked on developing a replacement for DU.  This is a tall order, because DU has a combination of properties that literally make it unique as a weapon alloy.

What a bummer!  It’s going to cost us more money to kill people in miserable ways.

What a bloody bummer!

Eadora you have to see an angry rabbit to believe it. They not only bite but also growl and can maintain a sustained, ferocious attack. Upset my youngest son’s Miniature Black Rex once and will never forget the experience. The Rabbit attacked non-stop for about fifteen minutes and I emerged bloody and shaken.

I have had cause to re-consider the story about the Rabbit which swam out to Bill Clinton in the middle of a lake and bit him. Always figured the Rabbit knew exactly what it was doing. They don’t just jump into lakes without a reason, though ours enjoys Kayaking in the Swan river.

I am hoping that Dave Lindorff is still reading here, because there’s something in his article that made no sense to me:

“According to Mt. Sinai pathologist Thomas Fasey, who participated in the New York Guard unit testing, the element has an affinity for bonding with DNA, where even trace amounts can cause cancers and fetal abnormalities.”

As far as I know, uranium is not known for complex covalent bonding, and DNA does not act as a chelating agent.  It seems to me that if DNA had a propensity for chelating heavy metals, then uranium would be the least of our worries.  So why would uranium have any affinity for *bonding* with DNA?

Meanwhile, I have a few observations about the radioactive risk from inhaled uranium:

The biological target of concern is DNA.  When we’re discussing any alpha-emitter, we’re talking about double strand breaks in DNA.

The body’s first line of defense against DNA damage is its amazing ability to repair strand breaks with near perfection.  (If it weren’t for this ability, we wouldn’t be here.) When the body makes an error in repair *and* the cell is not killed in the process, then we have a mutated survivor that could become cancerous if it develops a competitive advantage with normal cells.

The body’s second line of defense is for the immune system to destroy “misbehaving” mutant cells.  Any suppression of immunity can be critical at this stage.

Stress is perhaps the greatest suppressor of our immune system.  War is probably the most stressful possible situation.  Unless there are other factors I am overlooking, it would follow that soldiers generally have suppressed immune systems.

However, as I recall, all of the cohorts used for uranium dose conversion factors are groups of people who were not under unusual stress.  Therefore, while the *dose* conversion factors may be correct from that data, the *effective* dose (that is, the biological effect per unit of absorbed energy) may be significantly underestimated for combat soldiers.

That may be a significant factor in the kind of observations made by Dave Lindorff and others.

As an interesting aside, I noted the figure of 300 tons of uranium munitions used by U.S. soldiers.  In my research on the Yellowstone Caldera, I discovered that a series of eruptions over the past million years emitted 300 *million* tons of uranium into the air.  Considering the different time scales, I realize that the comparison is like apples to oranges, but it seems worth mentioning.

Your body sees no difference between the alpha particle from the Yellowstone dust in your backyard and the one from shrapnel.  The critical differences may be scale and stress.

Knappster says “The biological target of concern is DNA.  When we’re discussing any alpha-emitter, we’re talking about double strand breaks in DNA.” and this too is Rabbit’s understanding. But there is much more to it, though the details need not be sticking points. Nothing credible brings the basic premise that waste uranium, (that is the word people, depleted is a relative term and is just NEWTHINK tactics) is bad for people. In the short term, medium term, the long and even the very, very long term. If you want to do the maximum damage to the maximum number of people for the maximum amount of time it is a great idea to vapourise it in the way it is used by war criminal nations. Because it is an illegal weapon of war. Both Nuclear and Chemical bans cover it. Actually sane people never questioned this before either.

There is easily acessible info here;

http://www.iicph.org/docs/host_response_to_du.htm

This quote by Rosalie Bertell, Ph.D., GNSH,

“Depleted uranium is some thousand times more radioactive than natural uranium in its natural state in soil and rock”

This is a start to putting the natural uranium from volcanoes into perspective and it might help to remember that there isn’t much we can do about volcanoes. DU weapons on the other hand are a choice, though not for those who must use them it seems.

Knappster:

The uranyl ion and its complexes form ligands with protiens and DNA, when it’s not catalyzing hydroxyl and other oxidative radicals.  Please see:  H. Huang, et al., “Uranyl-Peptide Interactions in Carbonate Solution with DAHK and Derivatives,” Inorganic Chemistry, vol. 44 (2005), pp. 813-815:
http://www.bovik.org/du/uranyl-peptide.pdf
and for DNA:  M. Yazzie, et al., Chemical Research in Toxicology, vol. 16 (2003) pp. 524-530.

The radioactivity of uranium is of essentially no consequence in relation to DNA damage compared with its chemical toxicity producing oxidative stress resulting in oxidation damage to DNA.  Any discussion of U radioactivity in that context is tantamount to misdirection from the more hazardous chemical toxicity.  This must be the 100th time I’ve had to explain this, and at least the 3rd or forth on this thread.

rabbitvoz sez: “Why are you making the assumption that concerns about DU are hysteria?”

Because study after study has shown no connection between DU exposure (which is bad, mind you, but then, so is lead exposure) and these mystery ailments.  Arguments unsupported by facts are generally driven by hysteria.

“They have been discussed in rational terms with so many facts raised which remove all doubt that DU ammunition is dangerous.”

Heh.  Let me get this straight: You’re complaining that BULLETS are DANGEROUS? 

LOL.  Of COURSE they are.  THEY’RE BULLETS.

Duh?

I think what you meant to say is that DU has unintended levels of incidental toxicity.  That is a far more nebulous claim, and frankly, one that is unsupported by facts.

“...even if you are not Rambo Helbig in another guise, you seem to be.”

Nope!  I saw this conversation posted on a mailing list I frequent, and since I am a small, weak person in many ways, I came by to inject some facts into the argument.  I know, it’s a thankless task....  :(

jsalsman sez:

“Tungsten is far superior, because it’s not pyrophoric it only harms by shrapnel.”

While it is true that inhaling uranium isn’t very good for you, the rapidity with which UO2 poweder settles makes this unlikely.  The Uranium trioxide vapor notion, I’m not so sure of either, but I’d be willing to see that examined as a possible exposure mechanism. But, given the crushing density of UO3 (it’s twice as dense as basalt, for example) and the fact that we used to make Fiestaware out of it, I have a hard time believing it’s the “smoking gun.” But I could be convinced!

That said, don’t get the tungsten-based weapon alloy tested in the link I posted before confused with plain old tungsten.  This stuff is very new, very advanced, an amorphous alloy more similar to glass than standard metal alloys.  It was quite a shock to see its carcenogenic behavior be so radically different from plain old tungsten.

Here’s a little more info about the alloy:

http://www.mindfully.org/Nucs/2003/DU-Amorphous-Tungsten-Alloy30jul03.htm

It’s a darn good thing they decided to check on this stuff. I sure don’t want the .mil having access to that kind of a directed cancer weapon.  <shudder> As for removing the shrapnel?  Read the paper on the rats study I linked more closely.  Of the tiny pellets implanted, less than 5 percent eroded away.  This puts the fatal dose for that stuff potentially down into the single milligram range.

You can’t even SEE specks that small, forget about removing them.

What’s more, given the lethality mechanism (metastisizing cancers) the mortality remains 100 percent. It’s just the latency period before the cancer eats you alive that changes.

eadora sez:

“The Rabbit Bites does he not?”

Heh.

Oh, yeah, I’m bloody and shaking after that one, lemme tell ya. :D

“It’s going to cost us more money to kill people in miserable ways. “

So, you APPROVE of retiring DU in favor of the cancer weapon?  WHY?

rabbit sez:

“I have had cause to re-consider the story about the Rabbit which swam out to Bill Clinton in the middle of a lake and bit him.”

<sigh>

That was President Carter.  Please try to get SOMETHING right.

Here’s the picture:

http://www.narsil.org/politics/carter/large_rabbit_image.html

Here’s the story:

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a4_019.html

And we’re naming an Attack Sub after this guy. <sigh>

jsalsman:
“The radioactivity of uranium is of essentially no consequence in relation to DNA damage compared with its chemical toxicity producing oxidative stress resulting in oxidation damage to DNA.”

Maybe you should tell this to the author, who used the word “radioactive” in the title to hook people into reading his article.

YOH!  mauk2 - Your lame attempts at Ridicule are most humorous.

Quote mauk2
“I think what you meant to say is that DU has unintended levels of incidental toxicity.  That is a far more nebulous claim, and frankly, one that is unsupported by facts.”

and

“Nope!  I saw this conversation posted on a mailing list I frequent, and since I am a small, weak person in many ways, I came by to inject some facts into the argument”

It would seem small & weak would describe not only you, but your intellectual honesty as well as your facts.

Try to get your nose out of Gov. sponsored Whitewash.

Please review the posts and links on this thread before in inject your “Willful Ignorance.”

FACTS contradict your contention. 
The FACTS are very well supported.
Start by dealing with the FACT of Gerard Matthew.

OR - Perhaps like the “RAMJET” you to have a vested interest.
------------

CONFERENCE RESOLUTION 2 FROM THE WORLD DU URANIUM WEAPONS CONFERENCE – SCIENTIST COMMUNIQUE
http://www.uraniumweaponsconference.de/pdf/conferenceresolution2.pdf

Quotes from the article: Be sure to read the whole thing.

“This conference affirms and accepts , with regard to the outcome of using uranium weapons, that the following facts are beyond question”

Uranium weapons are converted upon impact into ceramic and other oxide particles whose mean diameters are in range of 0.001 to 1.0 microns with a mean diameter of 01.01 micron.
Such material is entirely novel and its properties and effects cannot be related scientifically to studies of uranium dust from mining and processing operations .

Uranium oxide can travel hundreds of miles.

Depleted uranium dust does not remain near the target but is widely dispersed by geophysical mechanisms.

Although the ICRP model used by risk agencies and military predicts that depleted uranium doses are to low for measurable health effects, this model is not appropriate. This is because internal particle radiation causes high dose to local tissue, whereas ICRP model is an approximation which applies to external radiation average doses.

There is massive evidence of health risk from exposure to uranium oxide dust.

READ THE WHOLE THING

“Because study after study has shown no connection between DU exposure (which is bad, mind you, but then, so is lead exposure) and these mystery ailments. Arguments unsupported by facts are generally driven by hysteria.”

It’s so easy to spot the psychotic personalities that post here—they always spout-off oblivious to the article.

You apologists for DU death are a real treat!
It’s like dealing with cockroaches on a kitchen table.

DEATH BY SLOW BURN – WHAT’S THE BIG DEAL?

http://www.barremore.net/depleted-uranium-kills.html

quote from Article; Read the whole

Today in 2005, fourteen years after the first massive use of depleted uranium munitions against Iraq, countless thousands (or millions) of victims cry in vain for relief as the United States and other military forces continue to use DU weaponry. Anyone seeking to end this suicidal chemical and radiological gas warfare is confronting one of the biggest institutional lies in history, the lie that uranium munitions pose no long-term or widespread health hazard.
The truth, being pieced together by dedicated, disciplined, peer-reviewed scientists worldwide, is too horrifying for most people to contemplate. The vaporized, ceramic uranium oxides which billow as smoke from an impacting DU shell have poisoned, and continue to contaminate the environment with minute, undetectable uranium oxide particles which will remain radioactive and toxic for the lifetime of Earth. (4.5 billion+ years)
Check out some of the numerous links

-----------------

ROYAL SOCIETY WARNS OF RISKS FROM DLEPLETED URANIUM.

http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/326/7396/952

quote from the article: Read the whole
“The Royal Society has long been calling for further research into depleted uranium, and it cautions that soldiers and civilians may have been exposed to dangerous levels, contradicting defence minister Geoff Hoon’s assurance that there was “not the slightest scientific evidence” to suggest that depleted uranium left a poisonous residue. “

COMPENDIUM OF URANIUM RESEARCH AND DEPLETED URANIUM 1942-2004

http://www.idust.net/Compendium/Compendium.htm
-----------------
WHO – “SUPRESSED SCIENTIFIC STUDY”

http://www.axisoflogic.com/cgi-bin/exec/view.pl?archive=43&num=5279
--------------
MASSIVE EPIDEMIC OF SEVERE BIRTH DEFECTS
http://www.americanfreepress.net/06_24_03/Massive_Epidemic_/massive_epidemic_.ht tml

God!  It’s like dealing with a sub human species

You can continue in your denials and rants,
“There is no Evidence” - “There is no Evidence” - “There is no Evidence” –

The Evidence has been placed before you again and again and again. 
You fail to perceive it and remain “Willfully Ignorant” of it.
It does not fit your jaundiced diseased worldview.

By arguing your case in a public forum such as this you EXPOSE yourselves.
More “Smoke & Mirrors please.  The view is disgusting. But it helps us get the word out.

Depleted Uranium is only approx. half as hot as the so-called undepleted variety.
Well I guess you just need twice as much of it to kill people. And with all the thousands and thousands of tons that have been DIRTY BOMBED about, I expect you will find it sufficient to your purposes.

To attempt to rationalize and justify the use of Virulent Toxic Radioactive Waste because its cheap and effective!  You better hope and pray you never have to give account.
Just following orders I suppose.  What a bag of snakes!

It becomes impossible to be nice to such sub human behavior.

Eadora sez: “READ THE WHOLE THING”

Hey. it’s only a few pages, of course I read the whole thing, it took me like 30 minutes. :)

Here’s the link:

http://www.uraniumweaponsconference.de/pdf/conferenceresoluttion2.pdf

This is a list of findings.  I find these unpersuasive, because all too often the folks involved are quite partisan in their opinions.  I would much prefer links to the source papers, such as I provided for the tungsten weapon alloy above.

That said, some of these papers seeme dubious in their claims at best, although I’ll have to admit, the “photoelectron amplification” paper sounds darn interesting and even maybe vaguely plausible.  Most of these seem like epidemiological studies, and frankly, stats like those can be massaged to say about anything by people with an agenda.  Here’s a truism you never see people who make these epidemiological admit to: “Correlation does not mean causation.”

There is a very strong correlation between lying down and dying.  Does this mean that if you stand up forever, you’ll be immortal?

Now, your next link:

http://www.barremore.net/depleted-uranium-kills.html

Lots of words, lots of angst, very few facts.  Felt like wading through a fever dream, but as I was asked to read the whole thing, I did. Even the part where the page accused President Clinton of laundering drug money for the first President Bush.  Do you actually BELIEVE this stuff?  :D

I especially liked the little “Arrest Bush-Cheney” ad at the bottom, nice little factual, non-partisan touch.  :)

Sadly, heated rhetoric doesn’t mean a thing.

Okay this link:

http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/326/7396/952

It’s just a news article. Gimme some links to source papers.  This biased crap that passes for journalism these days means nothing except that some hack made his deadline on time.

Now this link seemed more promising:

http://www.idust.net/Compendium/Compendium.htm

But it’s just a bunch of links to paper abstracts as far as I can tell.  Abstracts are nice and all, but more than a little short of information.

This link seems broken somehow:

http://www.axisoflogic.com/cgi-bin/exec/view.pl?archive=43&a;amp;num=5279

This link gives me a 404 error:

http://www.americanfreepress.net/06_24_03/Massive_Epidemic_/ /massive_epidemic_.html

Now, you are aware that depeleted uranium is less radioactive than natural uranium.

It is chemically identical.

Thus, natural uranium should be worse than depelted uranium, yes? More rads, same chemistry.

If this is the case, why is anybody alive?  Uranium is EVERYWHERE. 

You do realize that uranium is present in phosphate fertilizers that are used to grow most of our food, right?

http://www.orau.org/ptp/collection/consumer products/fertilizer.htm

If uranium is so deadly, why aren’t we all dead already?

Here, just go to this page and scare yourself green.

http://www.orau.org/ptp/collection/consumer products/consumer.htm

We live in a SEA of radiation.  The extra smidgeon that DU adds is so miniscule it makes no difference whatsoever.

The CHEMICAL toxicity of uranium, now that’s something to avoid.  But that’s still not as bad as lead or chromium or <shudder> beryllium.

Lots of stuff is radioactive or poisonous.  Lots of stuff is more radioactive and more poisonous than DU. The world is not dead. Thus, the whole anti-DU fixation is the result of hysteria.  Sorry.

mauk2 is obviously Roger in drag.

Note the similar writing style.

;-)

mmmmm......depleted uranium

mmmmm......anti-matter

You got it Eadora, sub-human species. mauk2 Rabbit was indeed wrong about which president the Rabbit bit. That however is the only point about which I am wrong.

You are indeed Ramjet though. I’ve been checking around this site and there appears to be one particular troll who keeps changing his name and posting under attempted different guises. Since we’ve already outed Lt Colonel ROGER HELBIG under several of these already. Apart from the format and tone of your arguments each time you don’t realise it but you’re making certain keyboard errors which are tranferring from one of your incarnations to the next.

You remind Rabbit of a lone soldier jumping from gun to gun pulling off a few shots from each, trying to make it look like there is a whole bunch of you. You have even passed off from one character to the next, like a relay team. Once in a while you have one of your faces compliment the other on it’s great intelligence and insight. “Happy Birthday to Me.” Pretty sad actually old son. Why don’t you stop your pathetic games, come and join the human race.

As for being scared, you are. You live in fear, you never knew anything else, and that is the truth. I’m pissing you off, you’ve never once attended to the simple questions about disposal of waste uranium, (same stuff) the actual measured radiation poisoning and birth defects. You’ve avoided the issue about DU being banned as a chemical and Nuclear weapon. You are a cretinous liar. You are supporting acts known as war crimes, we have your name Colonel and it has been added to the list. You will be held accountable for your role. The penalties for yours and your masters crimes include the death penalty. Your putrid world is collapsing faster than you can imagine and your judgement day is coming soon. Whether or not you know it or admit it makes no difference. Reality exists despite your lies.

You are a coward. Helping to maintain the lie so others can be tricked into dying, there is of course no way you would ever use these weapons or even go into combat. This Colonel leads from the rear.

mauk2, Natalie, Ramjet and all your other alter egos, you are decietful, stupid and cowardly. You have said enough to prove to Rabbit that you must understand the science well enough, you are not denying the Radiation dangers of DU because you doubt them. You are deliberately lying therefore and in the name of all sentient creatures, I curse your soul to eternal shame. You are on the losing side, but unlike many of your fellow rats, we have your name. There’ll be no hiding when the day of judgment come.

As for whether or not you are scared of Rabbit. You are. I’ve messed up your little games big time. You’ve tried to ignore my few simple irrefutable points and instead done nothing except try to insult me. Don’t you realise that Rabbit would be offended if someone like you didn’t hate me? You have tried to clowd the issue and changed your disguise repeatedly. You havn’t won a single point, except Carter which you’re welcome to.
Everybody knows who you are and they have utterly refuted everything you’ve presented. So why are you still here? Probably under orders and we already know your masters don’t know when they are losing.

Can’t wait to see your next trick Colonel. Why don’t you have all your characters come on at once? they could compliment each other on their insight and cleverness, back each other up and so on. Heh we’ll play along, we can pretend we don’t know they’re all you if you want. Whatever you do don’t give up. You are providing such a classic example of Government disinfo agent that people are coming to this site now just to check you out.

A few more names people. Rabbit may be wrong about all of these being one person but have cross matched them to no more than two people. Roger Ramjet, Natalie, mauk2, WhatTheHeck, al-Dakari, U Scare Me. Can’t remember any more just now.

Oh Colonel, you are such a dammed liar. Rabbit just realised you told another huge lie.

“Now, you are aware that depeleted uranium is less radioactive than natural uranium.

It is chemically identical”

Bullshit. Depleted Uranium is a thousand times more radioactive than natural Uranium.

End of Story.

Response by mauk2 To:

CONFERENCE RESOLUTION 2 FROM THE WORLD DU URANIUM WEAPONS CONFERENCE – SCIENTIST’S COMMUNIQUE

http://www.uraniumweaponsconference.de/pdf/conferenceresolution2.pdf
“This is a list of findings.  I find these unpersuasive, because all too often the folks involved are quite partisan in their opinions.”
Well that’s convenient, It is unpersuasive because I do not like what it says. Brilliant!
When I asked you to read the report, I suppose I should have asked you to attempt to perceive what it said.
This is a statement from Bona Fide Scientists regarding what they know of the nature of DU.
They are not Pentagon hacks. PLEASE REVIEW
“This conference affirms and accepts, with regard to the outcome of using uranium weapons, that the following facts are beyond question”
“Uranium weapons are converted upon impact into ceramic and other oxide particles whose mean diameters are in range of 0.001 to 1.0 microns with a mean diameter of 01.01 micron.
Such material is entirely novel and its properties and effects cannot be related scientifically to studies of uranium dust from mining and processing operations .”
“Uranium oxide can travel hundreds of miles.”
“Depleted uranium dust does not remain near the target but is widely dispersed by geophysical mechanisms.  It has been found in the Iraqi desert 10 years after the conflict (Busby, Iraq data). It has been found in street dust in Gjakove, Kosovo (Busby, Nippon TV, BBC) 13 months after use. It was found in 46 percent of all samples taken by UNEP 13 month after use, and was also found by UNEP in Bosnia and Montenegro”
My Note:. ( It is worth while noting that neither of these countries suffered direct DU bombing)
“There is massive evidence of health risk from exposure to uranium oxide dust……………”
*It includes the genetic component of Gulf War Syndrome including cancer, lymphoma and leukemia:”
“It includes the Italian Kosovo and Bosnia peacekeepers study of may 2001 which showed a clear and significant 3-fold increase in lymphoma in personal stationed in the Balkans, 7.5-fold excess relative to a normal military population:”
And On and ON Read and Review and make an attempt to perceive what is being said “mauk2”

URANIUM KILLS A DEATH BY SLOW BURN
http://www.barremore.net/depleted-uranium-kills.html

response by “mauk2”
“Lots of words, lots of angst, very few facts”

Look again! It is loaded with facts! This time put your perceptive faculties in gear.
You simply do not like the strident tone of the Link.
It shines the Light on Bloody Hands, Bros.!

----------------------
response by “mauk2”
“Now, you are aware that depeleted uranium is less radioactive than natural uranium”

NOT - TRUE!  And here the Lie should be revealed to you! If by chance you believe your it! True uranium is uranium But the difference in purity contained in a pound of fertilizer and a pound of the solid metal is fairly large Bros!

So-called “depleted uranium” is uranium that has had the fissionable isotope U235 partially removed during the enrichment process for use in nuclear weapons and as fuel for nuclear reactors. However, 250,000 metric tons of this so-called depleted uranium is actually waste left over from the reprocessing of irradiated reactor fuel, leaving it salted with fission products such as plutonium, americium, neptunium and U-236.
It is in itself highly refined!

It is approximately 40 to 60 % as radioactive as the most refined fissionable forms. EG Uranium236 or Plutonium. IT IS A HIGHLY REFINED HEAVY METAL
It has little in common with the background radiation found in your fertilizer.
Why do you think that they do not just dump it at the Local Landfill, FOOL!
This stuff is deadly!  - We have been DIRTY BOMBING foreign countries for to long.

Quote the mauk2
“Lots of stuff is radioactive or poisonous.  Lots of stuff is more radioactive and more poisonous than DU. The world is not dead. Thus, the whole anti-DU fixation is the result of hysteria.  Sorry.”

And “Sorry”, we will all be if we do not stop fouling our Nest with this stuff.
Again Please REVIEW the statement made by the independent scientists who conducted the Hamburg Conference

Quote:
“Uranium weapons are converted upon impact into ceramic and other oxide particles whose mean diameters are in range of 0.001 to 1.0 microns with a mean diameter of 01.01 micron.”
”Such material is entirely novel and its properties and effects cannot be related scientifically to studies of uranium dust from mining and processing operations.”

Do you get it YET????

I must ask you again.  Why do you attempt to rationalize and justify spreading our nuclear waste on foreign countries in the form of exploded munitions.?
Please explain the “morality” of that. Please explain Yourself!

I’ll fix the other link when I have time. Or you can Google them.
I got to be GONE for a bit.

Eadora we are actually arguing with someone that depleted uranium is dangerous, talk about surreal eh?. mauk2 is not going to progress. Rabbit is quite sure it is just the latest incarnation of Colonel Ramjet. Is this guy a fruit loop or what. He’s trying to bring Natalie up like a phoenix from the ashes, but he’s keeping mauk in there just in case. Not putting all his eggs in one basket you see.

If the Shill’s employers are reading this, don’t change the guy out, we love him. He allows us to fill in all the details clearly in a format that allows open minded people to both see the truth and to see you guys hard at trying to decieve them. Keep up the good work you silly shilly.

One last comment. I can’t stop myself. Roger says depleted uranium is less radioactive than uranium. For christ’s sake. All depleted uranium is, is uranium that has had most of the U235 taken out of it (the stuff needed for fission chain reactions in bombs and nuke plants). Since U235 occurs in nature at about 2 percent of all uranium, with U238 accounting for about 98 percent of any sample, depleting it has very little effect on total radioactivity, though it’s true that U235 is a bit more radioactive than U238. But again, it’s not the radioactivity alone, or even primarily, that is what makes depleted uranium so dangerous.
Nuff said on this whole string. We know who the liars and shills are, and nothing has been said in all this to undermine the point of the article, which is that DU is a heinous crime against both our own troops and their families and against the Iraqi and Afghani people.
Dave Lindorff

Yoh Rabbit!

They Is Lower Life Forms Fer Sure!

They expose themselves for what they are.
People who would spread Toxic Waste upon our world, and who would try to justify it with Toxic Lies.

THEY HAVE BEEN EXPOSED

AMEN. Thanks for the GREAT article Dave.

dlindorff:"We know who the liars and shills are”

And you used a baby and the word “radioactive” to draw attention to your shit article.

Q: Would you care to explain how posting information on uranium poisoning is costing American lives?

A: Simple, when the information is not true and it is used to recruit suicide bombers.

When they figure out we’re trying to kill them they become suicidal.  We’ll just wait ‘em out.

And poison their water table.

natalie sez: “mauk2 is obviously Roger in drag.

Note the similar writing style.

;-)”

Hey, don’t laugh, the denizens of the fever swamp here are claiming that I’m YOU, too. :D

rabbitvoz hammered at the keyboard for a while, then finally mangaged to form a coherent sentence:

“Depleted Uranium is a thousand times more radioactive than natural Uranium.”

Sadly, this is completely wrong.  :(

Lindorff,

Less radioactive than naturally occuring Uranium and it is substantially less so .. you are no objective reporter, but a shill for the activists.  Did you read the Health Physics Society DU Fact Sheet?  No, that would be actual research instead of lapping up whatever Rokke feeds you. 

Now as to the slop he fed you, did you ask

for Rokke’s last efficiency report from the Chemical School that resulted in his beiong fired from civil service, not one that contains the usual puffery that Rokke received, like most military and civilian workers, before his incompetence was discovered.

No, I thought not.

Far as Rabbitvoz goes, I wonder how much he makes off of peddling the anti-DU line .. is he a paid employee of Traprock Peace Center or maybe Asaf Durakovic’s Uranium Medical Research Center .. which probably could find Uranium in anyone’s urine since we all live on Earth and Uranium is one of the most commonly occuring minerals on the planet.

I don’t work for anyone .. no one pays me to oppose you yo yo’s and it is not in the best interests of American servicemen to participate in your DU witch hunt.

Again, To all you Apologists of “DU DEATH”

Why do you attempt to rationalize and justify spreading our Toxic Nuclear Waste on foreign countries in the form of exploded munitions.?
Please explain the “morality” of that

Because no matter how you guys slither around together in your bag of snakes,
DU is Toxic Nuclear Waste.
Or do you dare not even admit that to yourselves.

You cannot avoid that fact.
How do you deal with that fact.
How do you deal with the fact of Gerard Matthew.
Or are you so caught up in your game of P.R. & Spin that you comfortably ignore those facts. 
Please explain the “morality” of that.
Please explain your mindset that allows you to do that.
Please explain Yourself
Please explain how you can so EXPOSE your Naked and Brutal nature, warts and all, and still live with yourself.
I am curious to Know.  !

And still you carry on insisting on your “Smoke and Mirror” tactics as if they would hide your nakedness.

You respond:
“Sadly, this is completely wrong :”

Sadly you say -
You would try to convince us that “Tons of Pure Refined Heavy Metal Uranium” is no more of a problem than the background radiation in a bag of fertilizer.

Why do you do that??  I am really curious to know!
War is being waged as we spend time together here on this forum.
People are dying horrible deaths and you would make apology for the very worst of it.

It would be funny if it were not so desperately SICK.
Perhaps that is what the “Banality of Evil” is all about.

Dave Lindorff sez: “Since U235 occurs in nature at about 2 percent of all uranium, with U238 accounting for about 98 percent of any sample, depleting it has very little effect on total radioactivity, though it’s true that U235 is a bit more radioactive than U238.”

Oh, good grief.

I had to check twice to be sure that the guy who posted this bit of fallacy was, indeed, the AUTHOR OF THE ARTICLE.

How can you be so freakin’ worked up about a substance when you have only the vaguest idea WHAT IT IS?

Natural Uranium is composed of THREE isotopes.  U238 is 99.3-odd percent. U235 is .7-odd percent, not 2.  Reactor fuel is 2-5 percent. (Candu’s even less.) U234 is there in trace amounts.

U235 is the LEAST radioactive of them.  U238 is actually MORE radioactive than U235.  But U234 is much, much more radioactive than either of them.  The process that seperates U235 from U238 also removes the U234, even more completely.  That is the main reason why depleted uranium, also known as purified U238, is LESS radioactive than natural out-of-the-ground uranium by something over a third, depending on how hard it was run through the seperative machinery. 

Don’t want to believe me?  Educate yourself:

http://education.jlab.org/itselemental/ele092.html

http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/du_ii/du_ii_tabc.htm

Don’t you have any shame, writing such drivel when you don’t know what the heck you’re talking about?

The esteemed author then stated:

“But again, it’s not the radioactivity alone, or even primarily, that is what makes depleted uranium so dangerous.”

WHAT?!  You mean uranium is a toxic heavy metal?  And that’s the main source of concern? Like lead contamination, uranium contamination is bad?  DUH.

So why is the title of your article “RADIOACTIVE Wounds of War?”

You’re shilling for your target audience.  For shame.

I hope you got paid well for prostituting yourself like this, on a topic you don’t even know much about.

He then says: “Nuff said on this whole string.”

No, I don’t think so.  Now you’ve got my attention.  Sloppy work in your research.  Naughty.

I may have to look up some more of your articles, see about keeping you honest.

He states: “We know who the liars and shills are,”

Yeah, we do, and they include YOU.  When you make basic factual errors on the topic of discussion, that doesn’t do your credibility any good whatever.

More in my next reply, this is gettin’ good.

The author of the article that started this fun conversation triumphantly concludes:

“nothing has been said in all this to undermine the point of the article, which is that DU is a heinous crime against both our own troops and their families and against the Iraqi and Afghani people.”

Well, at the risk of wandering offtopic a bit, let’s address that then.

I have posted links to the FACT that the replacement the .mil developed for DU is far, far worse than DU is.

I have further noted that DU is unique in its combination of properties.  It is the best substance that exists at destroying armor. Even the liquid metal tungsten alloy is only close.

Are you stating that the US .mil should stop using DU minitions without any replacement? Why would the military do that?  Their JOB is to kill people and break stuff. They all volunteered to do it, too.  If they aren’t careful playing with their nasty toys, THAT’S THEIR FAULT.  The military isn’t full of innocent babes, it’s full of hardened, experienced killers, and I am thankful for that fact.

Now, about the Iraqi and Afghan peoples:

Do you want to argue that the dictator who formerly ruled in Iraq was “better” for the Iraqi people than their own elected government will be?  Name for me any representative government, of any form, that was worse for the populace than a totalitarian despot.

Or do you want to argue that said dictator could have been removed without military force? 

Do you want to argue that the catastrophic sanctions regime would have worked “eventually?”

Do I have to start posting links to the “oil for food” mess in order to make this point?

No, it seems clear to me that there was no other course besides keeping the status quo, or military action.  Like it or hate it, we chose military action. 

You use the military, they bring all their nasty toys. Lead and napalm and bomblets and mines and artillery and tanks and yes, even depleted uranium. But depleted uranium isn’t “special” in that rogues gallery.  I’d argue napalm is much, much nastier, and sub-munitions and mines are way up there too.

This isn’t rocket science.

Sure, lots of people are (to further their own agendas) pushing this “DU is the devil” foolishness, but the facts don’t support it.

I used a half hour today chasing down the cites of one of the fever denizens here, and they all had NO FACTS.

Sorry.

DU is nasty stuff.  But it’s no worse than lead, and is probably better than mercury or arsenic, and is WAY better than napalm.  It’s not some magical ogre out to eat children.

You all do a mis-service by spreading these lies and propaganda without bothering to educate yourselves.

For shame.

mauk2:

My replies to your messages are below.  But first a word to some of the more prolific particpants here.

People, would you please squelch the personal attacks?  Even if they are deserved, they don’t do any good, and they clutter up the thread terribly making life difficult for those of us trying to have a rational discussion.  There is no question that there has been a lot of exaggeration, hyperbole, and vindictiveness on both sides of the DU debate.  Few people have remained untouched by these failures in rational argument.  If either side wishes to make any real progress, we have to get past the invalid forms of argument, including the personal attacks.  Please hold your comments if you don’t have anything nice or factually-supported to say.  I realize in an issue of this tremendous import it is difficult, but it really is necessary if any of us hope to get anywhere.

Now, on to my replies to mauk2:

Regarding your comments, “The Uranium
trioxide vapor notion, I’m not so sure of either, but I’d be willing to
see that examined as a possible exposure mechanism.” I recommend the following primary source from the peer-reviewed scientific literature:  R.J. Ackermann, R.J. Thorn, C. Alexander, and M. Tetenbaum, in “Free Energies of Formation of Gaseous Uranium, Molybdenum, and Tungsten Trioxides,” Journal of Physical Chemistry, vol. 64 (1960) pp. 350-355, state within their abstract, “gaseous monomeric uranium trioxide is the principal species produced by the reaction of U3O8 with oxygen.” They indicate that this occurs at 1200 to 1800 Kelvin, which is well below the temperature at which uranium burns in air (E.M. Mouradian, L. Baker, Jr., “Burning Temperatures of Uranium and Zirconium in Air,” Nuclear Science and Engineering, vol. 15 (1963), p. 388-394, in particular Fig. 6 on page 392, and Fig. 3.) By “monomeric,” the authors clearly mean “monomolecular,” and indicate that almost all such UO3 produced is in the gaseous state and comprised of single molecules.  The fact of UO3(g) vapor production is supported by the first seven peer-reviewed articles listed in this bibliography:
http://www.bovik.org/du/2bibs.html

Regarding your comments, “Uranium is EVERYWHERE. You do realize that uranium is present in phosphate fertilizers that are used to grow most of our food, right?” The issue here is that 97% of naturally occuring uranium is in the safe and relativly insoluble quadravalent uranium(IV) oxidation state.  You can swallow five grams of UO2 without much harm—a person tried in 1996 to commit suicide with 15 grams of uranium(IV) acetate, and it didn’t work; the patient lived after six months of dialysis.

The problem is with inhalation of the relativly soluble uranyl ion, e.g. in uranyl oxide (UO3).  The hexavalent uranium(VI) ions such as uranyl—unlike any metalic uranium(0) or uranium(IV) ion such as in UO2 or U3O8—is “biologically available,” which means it is distributed into many tissues, some of which it accumulates in (e.g. the testes.) In addition to being biologically available, it catalyses oxidative radicals which damage DNA, and binds to proteins and DNA through ligation, which allows it to enter cells and nuclei.  That is bad news.

The problem with the chemical toxicity of uranium is that it attacks the chromosomes instead of other reticulated cell structures, making it a harm to the immune syste (resulting in gulf war illness) and offspring of male exposure victims with increased incidence of birth defects.

(continued below)

(continued from previous comment)

mauk2:

Regarding your comment, “U238 is actually MORE radioactive than U235.” Actually, the reverse is true.  All the three primary uranium isotopes decay by alpha emission.  Their abundance and half lives are as follows:

U234 0.005% 2.5×10+5 years
U235 0.72% 7.0×10+8 years
U238 99.3% 4.5×10+9 years

Since alpha emission is the same energy, the longer lived isotopes are the less radioactive, making U238 the least radioactive, U235 more radioactive, and U234 the most radioactive.  In practive, depleted uranium is about 40% less radioactive than natural uranium.

Regarding your comments, “why is the title of your article ‘RADIOACTIVE Wounds of War?’ You’re shilling for your target audience.” I feel ambivalent about this.  On balance, I feel a better title would be, “Birth Defect-Inducing Wounds of War.” However, I find it hard to object to the title as it stands because I strongly feel this issue deserves more attention.

Sincerely,
James

What Roger Ramjet doesn’t tell you.

Bob Evans was a reporter, now editor, in a town where the biggest employee is the Army Transportation Corps.

Second, even with that bias his series documents the US military continued refusal to conduct testing for radiation contamination

What does Bob Evans say - “The US government advertises a test for its veterans of that war too. But the test that it offers can’t detect uranium in low amounts, has a high error rate and uses equipment that’s less sensitive and accurate than the machines the British are using. US vets and soldiers who’ve had this test say they’ve been told they weren’t exposed when, in fact, the tests were simply incapable of detecting whether depleted uranium was present.”
http://www.envirosagainstwar.org/know/read.php?itemid=2214

Evans documents the continued denials of the military of any problems with depleted uranium while getting interviews with men who have obvious radiation sickness. 

Most of the sick veterans have symptoms similar to navy personnel at Operation Crossroads in the Pacific where men stood on ships as radioactive mist rained down.  These men were then repeated ordered to clean contaminated ships for weeks in an effort to develop a means of removing contamination.  For over 45 years the Navy insisted that none of the men had problems caused by their experience.
http://www.aracnet.com/~pdxavets/deny.htm

He is a troll.  It is interesting the series he sites supports the claims of DU caused radiation damage but he only quotes controversial researchers in the articles that deny these claims similar to the way the military always denies dangers of weapons in use.

Gary
Easter Lemming Liberal News Digest
http://elemming2.blogspot.com

Actually Lt Colonel Helbig doesn’t tell us anything, in any of his guises. He has however helped draw out some good information via the refutation of all his posts by well informed people, allowing anyone who visits this thread to check the Official story in detail and to see a military shill in all his naked glory trying to stop the leaks in their rapidly sinking ship.

The use of Depleted Uranium in weapons and deploying said weapons is a war crime and so it should be. The US military has authored it’s own destruction with its present course. America will still have to answer for their actions at the end of the day.

Rabbitvoz is a “real man” or is he .. if he were, instead of sniping from the woods, he would step out in the open and declare who he is instead of hiding behind a pseudonymn.  I made a mistake by using my real first name, but so what .. I just do not want my inbox filled with drivel such as Rabbitvoz dishes out.  So Rabbitvoz, step out in the open and declare who you are, you know how to find me. I do not take kindly to being called a shill .. shills deceptively work for others and I work for nothing other than the satisfaction that I am providing truthful information.  That is more than I can say for Rokke and his shills, one of whom I presume is you Rabbitvoz.

Again, To all you Apologists of “DU DEATH” and War Crime

Why do you attempt to rationalize and justify spreading our Toxic Nuclear Waste on foreign countries in the form of exploded munitions.?
Please explain the “morality” of that

Please review my previous post and offer me your answer to my questions.  I am very curious to know your answers to my queries, and my concerns on the banality of evil..

Other questions you have never addressed.
If DU is no more of a problem than Lead, why do they encase Toxic Waste Uranium eg. DU in Lead when it is being transported.
If it is not dangerous why is its disposal such an issue. Why do they not just dump it in a landfill.

Thank You jsalsman, your info has always been accurate and to the point.
I recommend to anybody reading this thread to be sure and go back and review your posts
Definitive facts presented in a cool dispassioante manner, Thank You.

U.S. MILITARY

Heads Roll At The Veterans Administration: Mushrooming Depleted Uranium (DU) Scandal Blamed

http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/printer_15334.shtml

January 24, 2005—The Preventive Psychiatry E-Newsletter today charged that the reason Veterans Affairs Secretary Anthony Principi stepped down earlier this month was the growing scandal surrounding the use of uranium munitions (DU) in the Iraq War.

Writing in the Preventive Psychiatry E-Newsletter # 169, Arthur N. Bernklau, Executive Director of the Veterans For Constitutional Law Center in New York, stated that “The real reason for Mr. Principi’s departure was really never given, however a special report published by eminent scientist Leuren Moret’s naming depleted uranium as the definitive cause of the ‘Gulf War Syndrome’ has fed a growing scandal about the continued use of uranium munitions by the US Military.”

Bernklau continued “This malady [from uranium munitions], that thousands of our military have suffered and died from, has finally been identified as the cause of this sickness, eliminating the guessing. The terrible truth is now being revealed.”

He added that “Out of the 580,400 soldiers who served in GW1, of them, 11,000 are now dead. By the year 2000, there were 325,000 on Permanent Medical Disability. This astounding number of “Disabled Vets” means that a decade later, 56% of those soldiers who served have some form of permanent medical problems. (Author’s note: The “Disabled” rate for the wars of the last century was 5%, and 10% in Viet Nam.)

Bernklau added “The VA Secretary (Principi) was aware of this fact as far back as 2000. He and the Bush administration have been hiding these facts, but now, thanks to Moret’s report, [it] ...  is far too big to hide or to cover up!”

“Terry Jamison, Public Affairs Specialist, Office of the Deputy Assistant Secretary for Public Affairs, Department of Veterans Affairs, at the VA Central Office, recently reported that “Gulf Era Veterans” now on medical disability since 1991, numbers 518,739 Veterans,” said Berklau.

“The long-term effects have revealed that DU [uranium oxide] is a virtual death sentence,” stated Berklau. “Marion Fulk, a nuclear physical chemist, who retired from the Lawrence Livermore Nuclear Weapons Lab, and was also involved with the Manhattan Project, interprets the new and rapid malignancies in the soldiers (from the 2003 Iraq War) as ‘spectacular … and a matter of concern.’”

When asked if the main purpose for using it was for “destroying things and killing people,” Fulk was more specific: “I would say it is the perfect weapon for killing lots of people.”

Mr. Principi could not be reached for comment prior to deadline. A follow-up article will strive to obtain a response from Mr. Principi or from the VA.

Notes:

1.  Depleted uranium: “Dirty bombs, dirty missiles, dirty bullets. A death sentence here and abroad.” by Leuren Moret.
http://www.sfbayview.com/081804/Depleteduranium081804.shtml

2. Veterans For Constitutional Law, Ltd, 112 Jefferson Avenue, Port Jeff.  L.I.  NY 11777. Arthur N. Bernklau, Executive Director. Tel: 516-474-4261, Fax 516-474-1968.

3. Preventive Psychiatry E-Newsletter. Email Gary Kohls at in Deluth
gkohls@cpinternet.com with “Subscribe” in the “Subject:” line.

Hi ho,

I’m sorry,maybe it’s just me and a few others,but didn’t we learn from a century of history,beginning with Madame Curie who died from handling radium,that radioactive material is something not to toy with?Yet,what are we doing?Scattering all over Asia Minor in this ridiculous conflict!It’s funny.No it isn’t actually,that a substance we would want in our back yard is something we casually disseminate in Iraq.Of course it destroys armor well!Look at its molecular density!Yet are we also not smart enough monkeys to remember just how long uranium is radioactive?Please spare me the"depleted"part if our government won’t tell us the truth about sugar substitutes,what makes you think they’ll be honest about radioactive material?

A radiated country--one more reason for the Muslims to hate us for the next millenium.

Typo.

“would want” should be “would’nt want”
Sorry,the phone rang.

I’d like to address something else that Mauk referred to: whether or not the Iraqis were better off under Hussein or with their new “representative” government. You know what?

I could care less!

That’s right: I COULD CARE LESS. What I DO care about is THIS country, and we are definitely NOT better off. At the point of invasion, Iraq was hemmed in by no-fly zones, Hussein was relatively contained and there was little/no mischief from insurgents or terra-ists in Iraq. Any idiot laughed immediately at White House “speculation” that he was in league with Al Qaeda/bin Laden. As a secular tyrant, he had no use for Islam or anything else except when he could use the religion card (like in Gulf War !) to garner sympathy in the region. As a result, he and bin Laden were fundamentally different and definitely not buddies.

So, from my perspective, there was nothing there that translated into any kind of direct threat against the U.S. or our interests. At least nothing so pressing that it required us to bail on Afghanistan and leave the acknowledged master-mind of over 3,000 deaths on American soil at large.

Were the Iraqis suffering? Sure they were. Hussein and his vile brats were evil incarnate and their crimes and horrors were documented in many places.

But, while I can (and do!) sympathize with their plight, I have to ask how committing our military is serving our best interests. By any barometer, it didn’t. If you want to pull the lame humanitarian card - like Dubya did when his lies/deceit couldn’t be hidden any longer - then I would say fine, let’s go help the people out.

But it wouldn’t have been in Iraq, it would’ve been in Darfur, where the scale of slaughter and human suffering makes anything Hussein did almost quaint by comparison. We can’t be everywhere and everything to all people, not at the expense of our security. And yet that’s exactly what happened: we are so stretched with resources over there that we would be strapped if/when another crisis occurs. And just where is that bin Laden fella, by the way?

Back to the DU stuff: you can argue degree of severity all you want, certainly there’s no lack of opinions on either side. But the bottom line is that the shit is deadly, poisonous and like the in-laws from hell sticks around far longer than the initial visit.

And people wonder “why do they hate us...?”

Quote the “mauk2”
“I used a half hour today chasing down the cites of one of the fever denizens here, and they all had NO FACTS.”

More of the same old smoke & mirrors. 
You have had facts coming at you from numerous sources.
You have sickened and demented your own intellect to the point that your faculties refuse to perceive them.

“jaslsman” wants us to speak nice to these guys but I ‘m am sorry, the only way to deal with a bare faced LIE is to call it a LIE, and the person who disseminated it, a LIAR.

There is no nice way to say things like that.  If it’s taken personal so be it.

You are a True Believer in your WMD.which is what DU is.  And like all true believes, when they are presented with FACTS that contradict their belief system they proceed to ignore the FACTS and PRAY a little harder or try to change the subject

It seems this time you have chosen the “change the subject” tactic.

Quote the “mauk2”
“Now, what about the Iraqi and Afghan people”

I’m sure you care!  That why you advocate dumping our radioactive toxic waste on their land.

I suppose they are having a Hell of a good time.

Their Infrastructure has been almost totally destroyed.

Most of their public assets have been privatized and given over into foreign hands.

They are in a state of constant anarchy, and civil war, while at the same time enduring a ruthless foreign occupation.

Their citizens are being murdered in their streets, by civil conflict, and trigger happy foreign troops. Not to mention punitive air raids on suspected insurgent strongholds neighborhoods.

Sky rocketing Cancer and Birth Defect rates.

Now, what about the Iraqi and Afghan people.

Start your own thread somewhere and we’ll deal with it.

BUT THE SUBJECT OF THIS THREAD IS DEPLETED URANIUM.

STICK TO IT !  or is the fire getting to hot for your feet.

Please answer the questions put to you
Posted by Eadora on August 29, 2005 at 11:15 PM
And the many others put to you by the numerous other posters
You answer them with silent avoidance, disregard, or misinformation and obfuscation.

Your nakedness is ugly.

Let me chime in here one last time. (ok,maybe not the last time)

Obviously, both sides on this debate have agendas and basic political and ideological beliefs that are furthered or frustrated by the truth on DU.

I am new to this subject, although I have heard brief mention of it elsewhere in the past.  I guess we have Cindy Sheehan and her “nuclear war” references to thank for bringing it more out in the open.  Oh yes, and Mr. Lindorff, of course.

I’m on the vacillating side of the anywhere from 40% to 75% of the people, depending on the situation on the ground and the balance of reporting, that approve of our decision to invade Iraq.  I’ve read several what SEEMED to me to be agenda-less reports that SEEMED to de-bunk the sometimes hysterical and sometimes frankly unbelievable claims coming from those who believe the use of DU to be extremely dangerous and prohibitive.

Maybe they aren’t as agenda-less as they appear.  I honestly don’t know for sure, and would love for this issue to truly come out in the open so we could learn the best truth about is as possible.  Obviously there are some risks, but are they justified in the context of war?  One accurately placed bullet can spoil one’s whole day, too, and quite immediately, but bullets aren’t banned from the military, YET.

I would suggest petitioning reputable and fair investigative reporting media outlets, if you can find any, to take up this issue. 

Like many other health and science issues, what we are led to believe by emotion and fear is often quite wrong.  That can go for either side.

I appreciate jsalsman’s (James) polite and reasoned reply to my rather smart-ass questions, although I thought I did raise a valid point about believing reports emanating from Iraq during the 90’s.  I don’t believe one could describe that regime and all they controlled as reliable sources of truth.

To those that insist on believing that Roger, mauk2, I and others are the same person, let me assure you, at least in MY case, that you are simply wrong.  To draw conclusions from the timing of posts, for example, is far from “scientifically” adequate.

I could certainly make the same claims about you folks, but they would have no more validity or value.  They would only serve to illustrate a certain paranoia, and a certain inability to argue my case on the scientific merits.

But then again, as I stated at the outset, I am not a scientist.  I only pointed out that there can be much more than science involved in discerning the truth about DU.

There really shouldn’t be.

Ah, finally, someone who isn’t convinced I’m somebody else and/or calling me names. :) You guys better stop that, I’m gonna start crying.

jsalsman sez: ““gaseous monomeric uranium trioxide is the principal species produced by the reaction of U3O8 with oxygen.” They indicate that this occurs at 1200 to 1800 Kelvin, which is well below the temperature at which uranium burns in air.”

Well, first, in DU rounds it’s metallic DU burning, but I see your point. (U3O8 is still present while the fire rages, some percentage of it would react further to the UO3 form.)

UO3 is, however, the least stable of the UO2, UO3, U3O8 family of compounds.  As that gas cools from the 1200 kelvin temperature, it rapidly decomposes into UO2 or U3O8, depending on temperature.

http://www.webelements.com/webelements/compounds/text/U/O3U1-1344587.html

Note there is no “melting point” listed for UO3, it doesn’t have one.  It changes directly to another form before it can melt. (I suppose it is POSSIBLE to supercool a uranium fire and get some signifcant formation of the UO3...)

The formative rarity of UO3 is strongly supported by the fact that we hardly ever SEE UO3 outside of uranium conversion facilities.  It’s like iron filings, they very quickly turn to rust out in the weather.  Investigators taking samples in DU-killed hulks found practically none of the stuff.

I will certainly note that there is probably a window of time directly after a target is blown to smithereens via DU penetrators when you could get a snootful of UO3, but then again, if a lead bullet had been used to do the blowing-up, you’d be getting a load of lead.  If the .mil continues to use that utterly lethal tungsten-based liquid metal alloy I have little doubt it will get worse yet.

I will further note that hopping into a blazing hot wreck in a battlefield, likely stuffed full of high explosives and volatile fuel, is not without further risks far greater than the possibility of getting a whiff of DU vapor.

Assess the RELATIVE risk, and DU is no ogre.  Yes, it is nasty stuff, but then again, so is everything else in a war zone.

That’s why it’s a war zone. :(

That said, I’ll prowl about, this is interesting.  The (remote) possibility of getting bio-available U compounds from open air combustion bears some looking into, but the high density of most of these means that they will settle quickly.

UO2, as you note, can’t kill you easily at all. (15 milligrams is a LOT.) U3O8 is the same.  Given that the VAST majority of oxidation compounds at ambient temps are those two compounds, ehn.  Seems unlikely.  The reaction energies just aren’t in favor of making any of the exotic compounds unless there’s something catalyzing the reaction or even more odd going on.

When your theory begins with, “First, you bend THIS rule of nature....” in my experience, it rarely pans out.

An interesting theory, though, and one certainly worth poking at a bit. 

That does not change the fact, however, that the .mil has no replacement for DU.  The stuff has unique properties they find highly attractive, and the replacement they came up with is horrific, to put it mildly.

Probably the best that would happen is they’d rename it, like they did with napalm. <shudder>

jsalsman sez: “Regarding your comment, “U238 is actually MORE radioactive than U235.” Actually, the reverse is true.”

Welllll....  :)

As it turns out, we’re both right.

The problem with discussing complex topics is that the darn things are complicated. :)

Seen as a combined whole, natural uranium gets 2.3 percent of it’s activity from U235, 48.8 percent from U238 and 48.9 percent from U234.  So what I said was true. These figures come from the below link, which I also posted above:

http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/du_ii/du_ii_tabc.htm

So, the lowered radioactivity in DU vs Natural U is mainly due to the U234 reduction.  The U235 has very little to do with it.

BUT, seen as discrete isotopes, then yes, the U238 has the lowest activity per gram of U238, the U235 has moderate activity per gram of U235 and U234 is just evil. So what you said is also true.

In the context of the discussion, I thought I was clear enough in what I meant, sorry, my bad. :(

“Regarding your comments, “why is the title of your article ‘RADIOACTIVE Wounds of War?’ You’re shilling for your target audience.” I feel ambivalent about this.”

I don’t.

You clearly note that the huge majority of the issue with DU is CHEMICAL toxicity.  Your fellow travelers on this issue do not, and instead build upon decades of lies, misinformation, and propaganda about the risks of radiation.

This is dishonest and wrong, and worse, damages the credibility of what is potentially the REAL issue, which IS the chemical toxicity of DU.  While I seriously doubt it’s any worse than other heavy metals, Uranium is an actinide element, and has quite complex electron shells.  The chemistry COULD be different, but as long as the frothing denizens of the fever swamp insist on spewing mindless FUD, the issue remains clouded.

Their ideologically driven hysteria serves no good purpose, and hampers investigations into any real issues. 

So, no, I am not ambivalent whatsoever.  The author of the article in question wrote this piece with an agenda in mind, an act which in my mind damages his credibility.

From a Guardian article discussing the work of Alexandra Miller at the Armed Forces Radiobiology Research Institute in Bethesda, Maryland
When the dust settles

Depleted uranium may be far more dangerous than previously thought
and we could be dealing with the fallout for many generations.

The small change betrays a big leap in understanding the threat posed by depleted uranium. Evidence is building that DU causes more genetic damage than scientists suspected - even at levels deemed so low as to be non-toxic.

Depleted uranium shells are designed to be lethal: the metal is so dense it can crash through the heavy armour of a modern battle tank. But those who escape the intended effect face other risks. When the depleted uranium rod inside an armour-piercing shell disintegrates, it showers toxic and weakly radioactive dust and fragments over a wide area.

It is not just soldiers who risk exposure. In Iraq, land where people once lived, and will doubtless return to, is now littered with the stuff. In 1991, armour-piercing shells containing around 340 tonnes of DU were fired at targets too tough to take out with standard shells. Hundreds more tonnes have been added to that during the past four weeks. People returning to places where the shells were used breathe in the dust as it is churned up by wind and traffic. The metal can also seep into water supplies, contaminating them for years.
Alexandra Miller at the Armed Forces Radiobiology Research Institute in Bethesda, Maryland, is due to complete an investigation into DU for the US department of defence next year. Already she has some insight into the damage it can do. Last year she showed that depleted uranium from pellets implanted in rats dispersed all over the animals’ bodies, turning up in bones, muscles, kidneys and liver. Rats breeding six months later had fewer offspring than normal.

Her latest study reveals something even more unusual. When human bone cells are exposed to DU, some suffer immediate genetic damage. The type of damage varies but often fragments break off chromosomes, the strings of genes in almost every cell, and form tiny rings of genetic material. This much was expected. But as other cells evidently undamaged by the depleted uranium started to divide, creating new cells, Miller noticed the genes in some of these new cells were damaged. More than a month after the DU was removed, new cells were forming with broken chromosomes or other genetic damage. The DU was having a delayed effect.

More intriguing still is Miller’s latest suspicion that DU punches above its weight in terms of the damage it does to genes. She knew that depleted uranium could damage genes not only by emitting radiation, but by its chemical make up - like nickel, it can switch on cancer genes by its sheer toxicity. But she found that tiny amounts of DU, too small to be toxic and only mildly radioactive, cause more genetic damage in cells than either the toxicity or radiation could explain. Her latest results suggest that the toxicity and radioactivity of DU reinforce one another, causing more damage than the two just added together. It’s no small difference either. “You can get more than an eight-fold greater effect than you’d expect,” she says. In other words, more than eight times as many cells suffer genetic damage than predicted. Without taking the effect into account, the health risk of DU could be grossly underestimated.

“People have always assumed low doses are not much of a problem, but they can cause more damage than people think,” says Miller

… . “None of these studies has yet impacted on the regulations.” …………And On & ON
--------------------
When you put this together with the ridiculous rated of disability among “Dersert Storm Vets, [Posted by Eadora on August 30, 2005 at 7:14 AM]
It does not take an overwrought imagination, or a rocket scientist to come up with a
1+1+2 equation.

Here is another Study discussed in a Guardian article

One person who is convinced DU-induced genetic damage causes real health problems is Albrecht Schott, a biochemist who recently retired from the Free University of Berlin. The day before the start of this Gulf war, he published a study carried out with scientists at the University of Bremen.

The study, the first of its kind, looked at genetic damage in the white blood cells of 16 former soldiers who believed they had been exposed to DU in the 1991 Gulf war or in the Balkans. They found that damage to chromosomes in the white blood cells was on average five-and-a-half times higher in the veterans than the rest of the population.

Kenny Duncan, one of the soldiers tested, was 21 when he served with the Royal Corps of Transport, helping to shift Iraqi tanks destroyed by DU shells in the 1991 Gulf war. He believes his exposure to DU has left his family with a painful legacy. His eight-year-old son suffers constant headaches and has deformed ears and toes. His two other children also have deformed toes and both suffer bowel and bladder problems. One is also partially deaf.

The reason is likely to be down to DU, says Schott. “The high levels of genetic damage we observed do not occur naturally. I believe alpha radiation from DU to be the cause of these chromosome aberrations.

“Uranium molecules in the blood can travel to every part of the body, including the areas where sperm and eggs are. This, and the presence of chromosome aberrations, increases the probability of cancer and other genetic conditions significantly. They lead to a higher probability of genetic damage in the person’s babies and then damage can be passed on to the children’s children.”
--------------

Please answer the questions put to you
Posted by Eadora on August 29, 2005 at 11:15 PM

They are not technical they are moral questions. As apologists you should have no trouble answering them.

Oh and while your at it tell us why we can’t push this crap into landfill. 
A simple question given your premise, yet one which you stubbornly refuse to address.

Piss off Natalie. There is a lot more than timings showing who you are. The timings and tandem commenting are so obvious you must be getting desperate. Everything you say has the ring of falseness about it. If you had an open mind then you should long since have made it up. Not a single point has been established by the Colonel in his many guises. The issue of DU was not ever in doubt, hell my fourteen year old son even couldn’t believe anybody was questioning the dangers of Nuclear Waste. Lets start calling it by it’s real name people. Obviously the Shills are trying to avoid this fact among others. Now my 14 yo son attends university twice a week after school for an advanced chemistry course, he has a few clues unlike RogerNatalieMauk2. You have played the smoke and mirrors, spread the government line and in every way demonstrated that “you” have an agenda.

You’ve played the time honoured game of the mentally challenged by calling everybody else whatever they call you. You are not only coming across as a committed SHILL you have completely surrendered any claim to honour, reason or even average intelligence.

Now we have an agenda, all of us agree with the vast majority of the world’s citizens that DU weapons are and should be banned. Unlike you however, we are all obviously different people, with real minds and we are arguing independantly and have raised a number of issues which you are totally avoiding. Now if you really were two or three different people, it would seem likely that one of you would have made an attempt to answer my or Eadora’s simple questions. You havn’t, which suggests again that you are one and the same.

If indeed you are two people then the fact that this is not apparent is further proof of the very limited number of people who could try and sell such a load of blatant lies.

Natalie, you are not a female. If you think your act is in anyway female then you have obviously not known too many. Furthermore you are not open minded. You have so obviously got an agenda, do you honestly think anyone has bought your crap, why not ask who believes you? You are spouting the same smoke and mirrors tactics as well and linking to the same discredited info. SHILL baby!

Colonel go back to Roger Ramjet, at least it was more honest. mauk2 gives me an image of a scruffy, dirty seagull. We others share only our humanity and while we may share more or less of our personal ideologies with each other we don’t have to agree on everything to agree on the one thing that all educated sane people around the world know. Nuclear Waste is dangerous as Radioactive and chemical and it is even more dangerous when you use it for bombs and bullets. Stop blathering on about how dangerous war and armies are. The radiation will outlast all this races remaining years on this planet. The war may end but the death and destruction will go on long after dirty little apologists for war crimes like you are dead.

Now you are a real bozo. Since you refuse to answer my query about why Nuclear Waste was always considered to be such a disposal problem I shall have to try and guess what you would say. Its a conspiracy isn’t it BOZO, the medical associations, universities and scientists as well as the governments of most countries are all involved in a conspiracy to deprive the most powerful military nation of a useful weapon. Even a more humane one you would have us believe. Meanwhile a small band of scientists in the pay of the DU pushers is bravely fighting to bring the truth out to the world. You are a conspiracy theorist then. Fair enough, everybody else has been wrong and the USA military is the only one telling the truth, sounds reasonable. (to you maybe)

continued…

How about the fact that DU is banned as a chemical and nuclear weapon? Since the USA and Britain have deployed the stuff they have ceased to be counted among the civilized nations.

Let’s face it Bozo Shill you have been given a shit of an assignment.

“Go out and convince people that nuclear waste is no more dangerous than lead if you make boms and bullets out of it”

Seems like a tall order to me in 2005.

You have not convinced anybody of anything except that you are a military Shill. You were shown to be a liar and shill from the start of this thread and yet still you soldier desperately on. Tell us Bozo do you have any answer to the fact of DU being a banned weapon of mass destruction. Nobody is interested in your smoke and mirrors, we don’t need you to try and explain the chemistry of something you don’t even understand yourself. We already know about Nuclear waste, hell even my children wanted to know who would believe such lies when I showed them your posts.

Since you love Nuclear Waste so much I sincerely hope you are suited up in it one day. I hope you will put your money where your mouth is and start a nuclear waste disposal dump on your property. Do you realise how rich you could become? Do you know how much people are prepared to pay someone else to dispose of this stuff? Since it’s so safe you should be able to bury a few tons in your backyard and make lots of money. Or is it only safe when made into bombs and bullets then blown all over the place? Please explain oh great one of knowledge. Tell us poor deluded fools the “real” truth that our governments have been withholding from us. Tell us how nuclear waste has been unfairly vilified and is really not much more dangerous than Blue vein cheese, if you spread it on wholemeal bread.

Remember Colonel, 36 percent support and falling fast. How long before you’ll be standing in the dock as a war criminal?

From the Military Toxics Project:

DU has been processed and tested at dozens of locations throughout the U.S., creating extensive contamination.

- The National Lead Industries factory in Colonie, NY, closed in 1980 after DU particles were found 26 miles away and DU levels in soil were 500 times higher than neighboring areas. (Len Dietz, 1996)

- The Starmet plant in Concord, MA dumped 400,000 pound of DU and other toxic substances into an unlined pit over twenty-five years. DU contaminated soil and groundwater, and is moving toward drinking water supplies. (Citizens Research and Environmental Watch, Concord, MA)

- The former Jefferson Proving Ground in Madison, IN contains over 150,000 pounds of DU shells and fragments. The U.S. Army wants to walk away from the contamination without performing any cleanup or ongoing environmental monitoring. (U.S. Army & Nuclear Regulatory Commission)

Health and Environmental Damage

When a DU shell hits a hard target such as a tank or building, it burns and produces a tiny ceramic dust that can be inhaled. These particles can remain in the environment for many years, travel for miles on air currents, re-suspend into the air when disturbed, and migrate into soil and groundwater. DU particles that are ingested or inhaled can lodge in the lungs, bones, kidneys, and reproductive organs and cause damage through radiation and toxic properties. Studies have linked DU exposure with damage to the kidneys; immune, nervous, respiratory, and reproductive systems; cancer; and genetic mutations.

Research over the past decade has produced increasing evidence that DU can harm humans.
- DU has been found in the urine of Gulf War veterans and Iraqi civilians eight years after exposure. (Rosalie Bertell, Ph.D, GNSH, Gulf War Illness Conference, 1999)

- Animal studies found that DU lodges in high concentrations in a variety of organs; causes changes to the brain; crosses the placenta to the fetus; and is associated with mutations. (U.S. Armed Forces Radiobiology Institute)
- A recent U.S. military study found that DU damages the chromosomes that carry human genes. (U.S. Armed Forces Radiobiology Institute)

- Radioactive and toxic properties of DU appear to reinforce each other, causing more extensive damage than the properties would separately. “You can get more than an eight-fold greater effect that you’d expect,” says DoD scientist Alexandra Miller. (The Guardian, April 17, 2003)

DU remains in the environment for many years after testing or combat use and can reach humans through a variety of pathways, including soil, air, drinking water, and food.
- At the former Jefferson Proving Ground in Indiana, DU has entered the food chain and been found in deer, clams, and fish. (Lockheed Analytical Services)

- DU was found in Kosovo over two years after its use there. Researchers found localized DU contamination at 10,000 times normal, found DU contaminated with plutonium, and found evidence of airborne movement of DU dust. (United Nations Environment Programme)

- Investigators found widespread DU contamination in soil, air, and lichen in Serbia and Montenegro over two years after the conflict there. (United Nations Environment Programme)

- DU remains in Bosnia and Herzegovina over seven years after its use. Particles were found suspended in the air inside buildings and in drinking water. (United Nations Environment Programme)

Yoh Natalie

I apologize if I have seemed over zealous.  But there have been a lot of “Scientific Facts” thrown your way.  We have been around the carousel a couple of times.

As the Rabbit sez “If you had an open mind then you should long since have made it up”

But I will give you the benefit of the doubt and apologize to you. And see how things go.

So Again back to the issue:  Quoting Natalie

“But then again, as I stated at the outset, I am not a scientist.  I only pointed out that there can be much more than science involved in discerning the truth about DU”

Please review some of the science and facts already offered.

And

“I would suggest petitioning reputable and fair investigative reporting media outlets, if you can find any, to take up this issue.”

Excellent suggestions, I wonder why the issue is not covered as much as it should be.

It would seem the EU does not have that problem the have outted the stuff as WMD and War Crime.
Perhaps we don’t hear about it as much because of massive media and Gov cover up.
http://www.xs4all.nl/~stgvisie/VISIE/cancerous-web.html
I wonder if Alexandra Miller still has a job?
--------------

Now Please review

Understand the lie, misrepresentation and deception perpetrated by US Defense upon “The Royal Societies” stand on this issue
Posted by Eadora on August 28, 2005 at 9:30 AM

Review some of the numerous and excellent citations and information offered by jsalsman, dlindorff, johnmccarthy. Etc. All dissed and rejected out of hand.

See how “Roger Helbig” aka.  “Roger Ramjet”, Major, Colonel, whatever, falls out of the bag of snakes.

A person with more than simple vested interest, his job probably depends on his performance here.

Understand the Vet Disability statistics.

Try the Conference Resolutions From The World DU & Uranium Weapons Conference.
Hell! do your own research. 

And answer this one burning question. That remains untouched by any of you Apologists.

Who would want to justify and rationalize the dumping of our Toxic Radioactive Waste upon a foreign land and a sovereign people.

Why can’t we dump it in our backyards?
That action alone Under existing International Law constitutes War Crime.
Answer as to the Simple Morality of that.

But the scofflaws in Washington and the shill like Roger have no problem dealing with such trivialities. 

they demand and get, media silence and compliance,
And they continue to act in their usual arrogant unilateral manner.

Answer as to the Simple Morality of that.

How about it open minded all American Girl? You have all the tools necessary to make up your mind, so do it Natalie. If you really do want the truth, do as Eadora asks and then when you are ready to rejoin the human race, just say so and Rabbit will be the sweetest little bunny he can be in apologising, he is at heart a very loving Rabbit. Actually Rabbit would be pleased if you not the Colonel, the thought of Lt Col Roger Helbig in a dress really does disturb Rabbit a bit. Too weird.

For anybody who wants to read a bit about LTC Roger Helbig.

http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_16798.shtml

If the shoe fits, wear it!

By the way Helbig, Rabbit shall make it a point to seek you out wherever you go on the net and that won’t be hard. Knows he does where you’ll be.

Please eat some Nuclear Waste for Rabbit. If you eat a gram of DU, Rabbit will too. Come on Colonel, maybe you have children you’d rather give it too?

I’m gonna make this quick and you can agree or disagree but when lives are in the balance LOOKING and INSPECTING and THINKING FOR ONESELF is a good idea.

The emergency workers at Ground Zero in NYC were exposed to toxins that have never been tested, etc. before because the metals, etc became a fine dust and went right through the skin and into the organs, fatty tissues, etc. and they were causing illnesses especially respiratory problems, sleeplessness, and much worse.

The solution?  The Detox Center where the PURIFICATION Rundown is delivered under a doctor’s care.

This is the only workable solution thus far for getting toxins which includes radiation, out of the body.  It combines exercise, a vitamin regimen which includes NIACIN and hours sweating in a sauna.

Go to google and type in NEW YORK RESCUE WORKERS DETOXIFICATION PROJECT.  By the way, this was the same program used on people in Russia after Chernobyl.

Good Luck!
Songbd

Just a thought, has anyone ever tested the WTC sites for radiation? Bearing in mind the talk that the bomb that went off in the basement was a micro nuke and the incredibly high temperatures underground days later. Rabbit never really believed these were nukes but still has an open mind on it.

Rabbit knows this wasn’t the point of your thoughtful contribution songbd, it just occurred to me now.

Rabbit hops away, nose twitching with curiosity and his ears erect and forward facing. Googling into the sunset.

Dear Rabbit;
My intention is to point the soldiers who are worried and already have radiation poisoning symptoms toward a workable program to detox their bodies before cancers set in.

Ever seen the worry on the face of a formerly strong and athletic young man or woman concerned that they will die before they marry or before their children graduate grammar school?  Because I have.

I’m talking about helping to save lives by relaying important information. 

When the clock is ticking and your body is deteriorating at a rapid rate, you should have a chance to reverse this situation as rapidly as possible.  And from what the soldier whose daughter has 2 fingers on her right hand said, he’s still in physical danger and the gover-ment ain’t interested in owning up to the truth about radiation exposure amongst our patriotic men and women.

That’s all.

m_astera here again.

I’ve been out of town for a few days, but I see that the argument has been in good hands.

Eadora posted above that as of January of 2004, 518,000 of 580,000 Gulf War I vets were on medical disability.  So 90% of our soldiers are disabled from that one.  Cui bono?  (who benefits?)

As I write this, the Southern States have been severely damaged by Hurricane Katrina; New Orleans is largely under water with bodies floating in the streets.  Meanwhile, over 4,000 Lousiana Nat’l Guard troops and most of their equipment are in Iraq, and unavailable to help out in this domestic disaster. Cui bono?

Citizens who sought shelter at the Superdome were not welcomed, but were subject to humiliating searches for “weapons or alcohol”, enduring waits of up to four hours outside in hurricane weather.  Cui bono?

When these Nat’l Guard and Regular Military soldiers return to the US, (those who do return), we can reasonably expect another 90% disability rate over the next dozen years, so they’re pretty much out of the picture, even those who wise up to how they were used.  If they wanted to seriously petition for redress of their grievances, as in throw the lying rotten bastards out of government, they would be physically unfit to do so.  Who would replace them?  Their genetically damaged and deformed children?  Cui bono?

Since 9/11, the “terrorist threat” that has been waved at us to induce fear has been that the “terrorists” would explode a “dirty bomb” in one of our major cities, a dirty bomb consisting of conventional explosives laced with radioactive material, e.g. DU.  So, we are being threatened with exactly what our government and military are doing to the Iraqis and Afghanis.

During the wars of conquest against the Native Peoples of what is now the US, most of the Native Peoples’ strongest, best and bravest men were killed, the beauties among their women were raped and bore half-breed children, effectively taking them out of the gene pool and effectively negating any threat from future generations.  The weak, the sickly, the cowards, and the traitors survived, along with those too old to fight or reproduce.  Cui bono?

In reply to my question about how discussing the dangers of DU endangered American lives, Roger siad that it would encourage suicide bombers, and then said:

“If I thought that another country had deliberately spread a terrible poison on my country, I would give my life to fight that other country.”

Roger, the government of this country, and those who control them, have deliberately poisoned two generations of American soldiers. effectively removing them and their offspring as a potential threat.  Cui bono?

You, sir, I call a pantleg-humping, bootlicking traitor to the United States of America.  If you should ever awake to the outrage that you are helpng perpetrate, I suggest that the proper target of your suicide bombing would be yourself.

As an addendum to what songbd posted above on detoxing, the herb cilantro (coriander) has been shown to be a very efficient heavy metal chelator-- it binds to heavy metals and eliminates them through the kidneys.