Radioactive Wounds of War

How about it open minded all American Girl? You have all the tools necessary to make up your mind, so do it Natalie. If you really do want the truth, do as Eadora asks and then when you are ready to rejoin the human race, just say so and Rabbit will be the sweetest little bunny he can be in apologising, he is at heart a very loving Rabbit. Actually Rabbit would be pleased if you not the Colonel, the thought of Lt Col Roger Helbig in a dress really does disturb Rabbit a bit. Too weird.

For anybody who wants to read a bit about LTC Roger Helbig.

http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_16798.shtml

If the shoe fits, wear it!

By the way Helbig, Rabbit shall make it a point to seek you out wherever you go on the net and that won’t be hard. Knows he does where you’ll be.

Please eat some Nuclear Waste for Rabbit. If you eat a gram of DU, Rabbit will too. Come on Colonel, maybe you have children you’d rather give it too?

I’m gonna make this quick and you can agree or disagree but when lives are in the balance LOOKING and INSPECTING and THINKING FOR ONESELF is a good idea.

The emergency workers at Ground Zero in NYC were exposed to toxins that have never been tested, etc. before because the metals, etc became a fine dust and went right through the skin and into the organs, fatty tissues, etc. and they were causing illnesses especially respiratory problems, sleeplessness, and much worse.

The solution?  The Detox Center where the PURIFICATION Rundown is delivered under a doctor’s care.

This is the only workable solution thus far for getting toxins which includes radiation, out of the body.  It combines exercise, a vitamin regimen which includes NIACIN and hours sweating in a sauna.

Go to google and type in NEW YORK RESCUE WORKERS DETOXIFICATION PROJECT.  By the way, this was the same program used on people in Russia after Chernobyl.

Good Luck!
Songbd

Just a thought, has anyone ever tested the WTC sites for radiation? Bearing in mind the talk that the bomb that went off in the basement was a micro nuke and the incredibly high temperatures underground days later. Rabbit never really believed these were nukes but still has an open mind on it.

Rabbit knows this wasn’t the point of your thoughtful contribution songbd, it just occurred to me now.

Rabbit hops away, nose twitching with curiosity and his ears erect and forward facing. Googling into the sunset.

Dear Rabbit;
My intention is to point the soldiers who are worried and already have radiation poisoning symptoms toward a workable program to detox their bodies before cancers set in.

Ever seen the worry on the face of a formerly strong and athletic young man or woman concerned that they will die before they marry or before their children graduate grammar school?  Because I have.

I’m talking about helping to save lives by relaying important information. 

When the clock is ticking and your body is deteriorating at a rapid rate, you should have a chance to reverse this situation as rapidly as possible.  And from what the soldier whose daughter has 2 fingers on her right hand said, he’s still in physical danger and the gover-ment ain’t interested in owning up to the truth about radiation exposure amongst our patriotic men and women.

That’s all.

m_astera here again.

I’ve been out of town for a few days, but I see that the argument has been in good hands.

Eadora posted above that as of January of 2004, 518,000 of 580,000 Gulf War I vets were on medical disability.  So 90% of our soldiers are disabled from that one.  Cui bono?  (who benefits?)

As I write this, the Southern States have been severely damaged by Hurricane Katrina; New Orleans is largely under water with bodies floating in the streets.  Meanwhile, over 4,000 Lousiana Nat’l Guard troops and most of their equipment are in Iraq, and unavailable to help out in this domestic disaster. Cui bono?

Citizens who sought shelter at the Superdome were not welcomed, but were subject to humiliating searches for “weapons or alcohol”, enduring waits of up to four hours outside in hurricane weather.  Cui bono?

When these Nat’l Guard and Regular Military soldiers return to the US, (those who do return), we can reasonably expect another 90% disability rate over the next dozen years, so they’re pretty much out of the picture, even those who wise up to how they were used.  If they wanted to seriously petition for redress of their grievances, as in throw the lying rotten bastards out of government, they would be physically unfit to do so.  Who would replace them?  Their genetically damaged and deformed children?  Cui bono?

Since 9/11, the “terrorist threat” that has been waved at us to induce fear has been that the “terrorists” would explode a “dirty bomb” in one of our major cities, a dirty bomb consisting of conventional explosives laced with radioactive material, e.g. DU.  So, we are being threatened with exactly what our government and military are doing to the Iraqis and Afghanis.

During the wars of conquest against the Native Peoples of what is now the US, most of the Native Peoples’ strongest, best and bravest men were killed, the beauties among their women were raped and bore half-breed children, effectively taking them out of the gene pool and effectively negating any threat from future generations.  The weak, the sickly, the cowards, and the traitors survived, along with those too old to fight or reproduce.  Cui bono?

In reply to my question about how discussing the dangers of DU endangered American lives, Roger siad that it would encourage suicide bombers, and then said:

“If I thought that another country had deliberately spread a terrible poison on my country, I would give my life to fight that other country.”

Roger, the government of this country, and those who control them, have deliberately poisoned two generations of American soldiers. effectively removing them and their offspring as a potential threat.  Cui bono?

You, sir, I call a pantleg-humping, bootlicking traitor to the United States of America.  If you should ever awake to the outrage that you are helpng perpetrate, I suggest that the proper target of your suicide bombing would be yourself.

As an addendum to what songbd posted above on detoxing, the herb cilantro (coriander) has been shown to be a very efficient heavy metal chelator-- it binds to heavy metals and eliminates them through the kidneys.

Actually this is a good outcome, this thread has started to attract a lot of attention thanks to LTC Roger Helbig and helper. Rabbit said you are entertaining and best of all without you this site would mostly just be people agreeing with each other on an issue such as this. You’ve given us the opportunity to polish off the military lies and expose the tactics. At the same time performing such fantastic contortions and moves that the lesson in “Military Intelligence” has in itself been edifying.

Expect lots of links to this thread over time.

Anyway rabbit just thought of a very good addition to the list of “treatments” suggested for those exposed to the vile Nuclear waste. Not sure of the spelling “KAMBUCHA”. It is a fungus and is used to produce a fermented tea drink which has awesome cleansing and detoxifying effects. It is so effective that if high level of poisoning it must be used very sparingly at first as so much of toxins can be shifted at once that the patient can die of poisoning directly from organ failure.

Hey songbd hope you didn’t misunderstand me, as Rabbit said he knows that his digression had nothing to do with your message which Rabbit is completely in tune with. Actually missus Rabbit is highly qualified reflexologist and whole Rabbit family very natural healthy. We know and have known people in situation you describe too many times, but find all too often you can lead a horse to water but....

Here is url to some Kambucha info and Rabbit highly recommends any concerned about their exposure to DU or other toxins, take note of the valid tips in this last few posts since songbd.

http://w3.trib.com/~kombu/

understood, rabbit.  we’re on the same page.

The author of the article is a complete joke.  To ANYONE who has served in the military (something most of your liberals have not done) we know several of his claims are completely False.

1) As NCO in the military I had two additional duties. Unit Armorer (I fixed the units weapons) and Ammo Handler.  We do NOT use DU rounds in our personal weapons, not gonna happen, just a wishful fantasy on teh authors part.

2) The soldier who claimed that he was not told the dangers was lying, doesn’t exist, or was not paying attention.  Every year the Army has what is called Common Task Training (CTT).  they are abotu 12-20 core tasks that EVERY soldier in the Army must complete depending on rank.  I know for a fact that DU training was given several time especially in 1998.  I remember commenting to myself when would I ever run into tanks damaged by DU.  I also know I trained this CTT task to my soldiersand I was NOT in a line unit.

I just ask they many of you people quit spreading lies about they military especially when you have never served or if you belive what you see on TV.  I bet many of you think that “Over There” is realistic depiction the war huh?

Military SHILLS know you not that you are not arguing the other side to a debate. Their isn’t any debate about the hazards of Nuclear Waste, wishful thinking won’t get you there and no amount of smoke and mirrors will change anything. People are stupid on the whole but just not that stupid. You are proving however that there is no end to military stupidity, not only are you not changing any one’s mind you are handing us the tools to awaken vaste numbers more people to the truth on many issues. This campaign to make Nuclear Waste Sexy is going to turn out to be the biggest tactical mistake you’ve made in the propaganda war. Can you not hear the distant thunder? That is the sound of the world waking up to your deceit.

Now why don’t you SHILLS prove you support your own fellow troops, stop trying to justify poisoning them and and demand instead that

“United States Department of Defense officials provide medical care to all DU casualties and clean up all environmental contamination as required by AR 700-48 and TB 9-1300-278; and, that medical care is provided to all DU casualties as required by Lt General Ron Peake’s April 29, 2004 order.”

Do you support your troops? Of course you don’t, you prove it by whoring yourselves for lies that nobody is ever going to believe for longer than it takes someone else to remind them what exactly “Depleted Uranium” is.

Now Sargeant Sad Case, what say you eat some DU for Rabbit. He made the offer before and he extends it to yourself, eat a gram of DU and Rabbit will to. But you first.

Thank you for the correction on Johnston Atoll.  There is, however, more to the story.  While there in 1977-78 and several times after that for a week at a time, there was no clean-up going on of the plutonium.  Those of us on the island before the clean-up began breathed in the plutonium fall out on a daily basis.  Your lovely story about the clean-up didn’t really clean the island as, by your own refenced articles, The full clean-up didn’t begin until the 80’s. By that time several hundred soldiers, airmen, coast guard personnel, and civilans had been exposed.  How do you propose that our Country assist the exposed or will you gloss over that?  Plutonim or Uranium exposure to that deadly stuff is still deadly and it has affected several hundreds of people civilian and service members.  I’m glad some of these articles are now coming out.  It explains the death of several fellow JIers.

Michael read especially the posts on treatment kindly started by songbd a dozen posts since and good luck. Michaelvet take the time to read though the thread, since you obviously don’t need to be told DU is ugly you can skip the links. Just have a look at how much the military cares about you as evidenced by the military Nuclear Shill, LTC Roger Helbig and his mate the sarge.

Come on SACASE, tell Michael he’s full of crap. Tell him he is a traitor, and tell him that DU, Nuclear waste, is no more radiocative or generally dangerous than lead.

CHOKE! CHOKE! Heh the word is out SHILLS, you are about to get a wider audience here.

LTC Roger Helbig, are you getting a special citation for a job well done here? Bet your masters love you right now. But don’t blame yourself, you never had a chance from the start. It is too late to make Nuclear waste seem sexy. It is also too late for you to scuttle from the sinking ship. You are going down with it!

Glub, Glub!

Hey rabbit dung .. if I have masters, then tell them I need a pay check!  But then accuracy never was particularly important to you and I see that you still lack the cojones to write me direct and identify yourself and who funds you.

r*h*e*l*b*i*g@c#a#l#i#f#o#r#n#i#a-spelledoutinfull.com —I think that they have pretty good spam protection ..

Rabbit Dung,

Since you seem to like Rokke and Nichol’s fiction, I guess you want to be party to a libel suit.

Rokke is a civilian, so am I .. we both are retired reservists.  He pushes his Doctorate .. but never tells you that his having a Phd gives him any real knowledge about the subject.  I am not even sure that he is a retired reservist.  I have requested a copy of his military records.

There will be no war crime trial because there is no war crime and debating some @#$$%hole like you on the internet is not exactly a crime.  You just abuse your free speech when you falsely malign someone and that is what your have done.  You have my e-mail address .. write me so that I can actually find you!  I gather that you still don’t have the cojones to correspond directly.

I sent the following to Axis of Logic on 4/17/05 .. they made minor changes to this false article .. the truth matters very little to them.  Unfortunately, bold text also does not come through in this comment block.

As noted in the bold text embedded within, the following article on the Axisoflogic.com web site which has been widely disseminated throughout the internet in the past week is false and slanderous and should be retracted.

Air Force Colonel Abuses American Citizens over Uranium Weapons Coverup
By Dr. Doug Rokke, US Army, Ret., and Bob Nichols, Project Censored Award Winner
Apr 12, 2005, 07:42

“Individuals on web sites throughout the United States have complained over a period of months about the abusive and aggressive actions of an Air Force Lieut. Colonel named Roger Helbig,” stated Project Censored Award Winning writer Bob Nichols.

“Col. Helbig has consistently misrepresented himself and his participation, voluntarily or on a paid basis, as a “minder” or enforcer for the DOD lie about Uranium Munitions in direct contravention of US Army Regulations and Orders,” Nichols stated.

Nichols is a liar.  Plain and simple.  I have never misrepresented myself, but I apparently have had an impact on Nichols, Rokke and Leuren Moret, all of whom have made a career out of misrepresenting themselves and the degree to which the use of depleted uranium armor penetrators as “tank killers” represents a long term threat to people and the environment.  I got into this because they claim it is genocidal and it is not; they claim that a memo written in 1943 refers to depleted uranium when it does not.  I got into this because I have some knowledge of radioactive materials gained from taking a class in 1973 at Lowry AFB with field work at Rocky Mountain Arsenal, from leading a detection and decontamination team for two years, from being a reservist with the Alameda County Office of Civil Defense and from working closely with nuclear engineers in the decontamination and closure of a nuclear shipyard.  I know enough to know that depleted uranium is not a nuclear weapon.  They do not want anyone else to know that and since I have signed a number of my messages with my retired reserve rank they have decided that I am a paid “enforcer”.  They have no proof because I am not part of anything.  I am just me, and when I see lies I feel an obligation to see that they are exposed.  The only payment I currently receive from anyone is my small retirement check from being a civil servant for 21 years and having survived three base closures long enough to make it past age 50 and 20 years of Federal Civil Service; I receive no monies from the Air Force or the Department of Defense since I am not yet 60 years old and reserve retirees do not draw retirement pay under that age.

“Col. Helbig apparently is fervently following the Secret Los Alamos Memo about Uranium Weapons (UW), aka so-called “Depleted Uranium,” instructing personnel to lie about Uranium Weapons to maintain the political viability of continued use of the Genocidal Weapons: “weaponized radioactive and poisonous ceramic uranium oxide gas and dust” in Iraq and throughout Central Asia,” added Nichols.

Nichols stated “Dr. Doug Rokke, Ph.D., is the former Army Officer in charge of the Pentagon’s Depleted Uranium Project. Dr Rokke is a career officer, loyal to the Constitution of the United States of America, not to any political party. He is the man the people of the United States can turn to for “on the level information” about the true nature of Uranium Weapons (UW.)

Previous demand for retraction (cont)

Rokke never was in charge of the Pentagon’s depleted uranium project, but it is important for him and Nichols to make people believe that because no one would attend Rokke’s lectures or join their movement if he revealed just how low down the totem pole Army Reserve Lieutenant Rokke was in Kuwait after the Gulf War.  The Special Assistant for Deployment Health, Department of Defense described Rokke’s claims and role as follows in response to an e-mail inquiry from me:

We can offer some accurate information to correct the record. Rokke is a private citizen and does not represent the Department of Defense.  Following the ground war, Rokke was
attached for duty to assist technical experts in the recovery and decontamination of radioactive material and equipment.  The
team of approximately 10 people was led, not by Rokke, but by a civilian from the Army Munitions and Chemical Command (AMCCOM).  Rokke’s primary role was to facilitate the recovery operations by ensuring the team had the proper support.  Over the past years, Doug Rokke has reported varying numbers of ill or dead members of “his team.” These claims have been researched and are unsubstantiated.

In 1998, our office compiled a list of 29 names of people Rokke reported to be on “his team.” Staff members were able to interview 22 of them.  Approximately 15 of the 29 people Doug Rokke had identified as being on “his team” actually worked on DU-contaminated vehicles.  Two of the 29 had died, however, in
interviews with the others, neither of these two veterans was named as having worked with depleted uranium.

While we respect Rokke’s right to express his opinions, the fact that he presents himself as an expert, does not make it so.  His role in the Gulf War and at the Chemical School, as well as the specifics of his educational background, do not qualify him as a depleted uranium expert.  These areas fall well outside of his area of expertise and responsibility.

Dr. Rokke commented, “LTC Roger Helbig, United States Air Force: I would suggest that since you claim to be so knowledgeable about DU and my specific activities during Gulf War 1 and while I was the Director of the U.S. Army Depleted Uranium that you produce the actual official documents, not some comments by Bob Cherry or Ed Battle or Mike Kilpatrick, your bosses up the line, verifying your comments.”

I have no bosses up the line.  I do not know Bob Cherry, Ed Battle or Mike Kilpatrick.  Suggest that Rokke provide his Standard Form 180, the one the Swift Boat Liars demanded of John Kerry, to show what exactly he did while he was in uniform.  He is the one who needs to provide actual documentation.  He is the one who has made himself something more than what he really did.  (Since April, thanks to my digging deeper into Rokke, I have been in close e-mail contact with retired Col Bob Cherry, Phd in Physics and Certified Health Physicist (CHP), former Army Radiation Safety Officer, but at the time that Nichols slandered me, I had not even heard of him let alone knew him by e-mail or otherwise)

Demand for Retraction from Axis of Logic dated 4/17/05 (cont)

Rokke added “Unless you can do so, please cease and go away. But before you go away you still have not answered; why you, as an United States Air Force officer, refuse to support my / our actions to ensure that United States Department of Defense officials provide medical care to all DU casualties and clean up all environmental contamination as required by AR 700-48 and TB 9-1300-278; and, that medical care is provided to all DU casualties as required by Lt General Ron Peake’s April 29, 2004 order.”

I really don’t know whether the Army is or is not complying with these regulations.  However, given the way Rokke, Nichols and Meuret bully anyone who disagrees with them, such as their portrayal of DU as the new Zyklon B, I suspect that the Army actually is complying, just like the Department of Veterans Affairs is collecting detailed information about DU exposure from claimants.  I suspect it is just another red herring.

Dr. Rokke concluded “It is time for you to decide. The question is not about me, but whether or not United States Department of Defense personnel comply with their own requirements to provide medical care and clean up all environmental contamination as specified in AR 700-48, TB 9-1300-278, and all of the orders mandating medical care for DU casualties.”

The question very much is about him.  He pushes the fact that he has a Phd, but he never really tells anyone that his Phd is in education and that the studies and research leading up to the doctorate had absolutely nothing to do with depleted uranium, nuclear materials or health physics, the areas in which he now claims to be the pre-eminent expert.

Sheesh, you guys! Please stop bitching at each other.

mauk2 wrote:  “UO3 is, however, the least stable of the UO2, UO3, U3O8 family of compounds.  As that gas cools from the 1200 kelvin temperature, it rapidly decomposes into UO2 or U3O8, depending on temperature.”

On the contrary, UO3 is stable and plates out (precipitates as a film) and has been detected as such by B. Salbu, et al., “Oxidation states of uranium in depleted uranium particles from Kuwait,” Journal of Environmental Radioactivity, vol. 78 (2005) pp. 125–135:
http://www.bovik.org/du/Salbu-uranyl-detected.pdf

That was actually the first time that UO3 has been reported detected—the Army has multiple documents saying that the expected it but didn’t find any (in both soil and as a combustion product.) They didn’t know about the gas vapor thing.  If you measure the tangible dust, you get 75% U3O8 and 25% UO2.  According to the U-O state diagram in the Gmelin Handbook, the actual product result is supposed to be about 20% UO2, 60% U3O8, and 20% UO3.  It is unclear to me whether that much UO3 is actually produced, but it would explain a lot.

mauk2 wrote:  “The formative rarity of UO3 is strongly supported by the fact that we hardly
ever SEE UO3 outside of uranium conversion facilities.”

That is just not true.  About 3% of naturally occuring uranium in ore and crystals are various hydrates and oxides of the hexavalent uranyl ion.  Natural UO3 crystals have five different crystalization phases, eash with different color and density, but by far the most common are the schoepite hydrates.  The schoepite minerals are hydrates of uranyl oxides; essentially hydrated UO3 crystals:
http://webmineral.com/data/Schoepite.shtml
http://webmineral.com/data/Metaschoepite.shtml

The Pueblo native americans in the four-corners area apparently used ground schoepite crystals as body paints. There is some arcaelogical evidence that they knew not to ingest or use the schoepite in foods because of they way they were stored:  the stone-age version of child-proof containers, on high ledges, away from food preparation areas.  Other painting substances were not stored so carefully.

“UO2, as you note, can’t kill you easily at all. (15 milligrams is a LOT.)”

In fact, the suicide attempt was with 15 GRAMS of uranium(IV) acetate, ingested.  The dialysis was only for two weeks, by the way; not six months as I claimed earlier:  Pavlakis, et al., “Deliberate overdose of uranium: toxicity and treatment,” Nephron., vol. 72, no. 2 (1996), pp. 313-317:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&lis st_uids=8684547&dopt=Abstract

The point is that uranium(IV) and metalic uranium(0), ingested or inhaled, is relatively mild and causes mostly only noncumulative kidney damage, but the uranium(VI) uranyl ion, is bad news in the immune system and gonocytes.  In all cases the chemical toxicity is generally more harmful than its radioactivity.

Sincerely,
James

sacase wrote:  “We do NOT use DU rounds in our
personal weapons....”

In the ‘80s, ATK systems made some DU 9 mm rounds, some land mines with DU casings, and even a DU hand grenade.  They all were apparently tested, and the report with results of those tests is “sensitive” (essentially classified.) We do know that there were never any significant orders for anything but 20 mm (Phalanx), 25 mm (Bradley), 30 mm (the big category), and 105 and 120 mm tank and howitzer antitank rounds.  The Phalanx system actually uses a 15 mm penetrator in a 20 mm plastic sabot.

“The soldier who claimed that he was not told the dangers was lying, doesn’t exist, or was not paying attention.”

They have been improving as the science has been rolling in.  The mechanism of DNA action has only been apparent in publications since 2002, and a lot of the other pieces have fallen into place since.  I expect by 2007 they will probably have a pretty good handle on what actually happened.

However, there are a lot of researchers who missed the obvious, the not-quite-obvious, and the downright obscure, and many of them have heavy professional and emotional investments in their negative conclusions.  Science doesn’t always work well because personalities are involved.

For example, I am not envious of Dr. Melissa McDairmid, who had responsibility for following the health progress of exposure victims.  She latched on to shapnel victims early on, ignoring the possibility of uranyl inhalation.  As we’ve discussed, metalic and uranium(IV)—which is how shrapnel is metabolized—is mostly harmless.

At some point Dr. McDairmid is going to have to realize the whole UO3(g) vapor fumes exposure pattern, with its attendant chromosome damage.  Then she can easily explain the immune system and reproductive damage she’s been witnessing.

Sincerely,
James

P.S.  Phalanx is already converted to tungsten; the DU Phalanx system would occasionaly strike neighboring ships when it went off.  The incindiary pyrophoricity was probably the biggest hazard the Navy had in mind when it phased out DU Phalanx ordnance in the late ‘90s.

I see that James Salsman, the intrepid internet researcher now claims to be more expert than Dr. Melissa McDairmid who does the research.  He has a massive collection of things he thinks answer the questions, but if you want to see how little he really knows, read the many replies from the experts on the Radsafe list.  Then you will find that he spins considerably, sounding believable only to those who know less than he does.

Rabbit Dung certainly has an endless supply of bovine excrement .. his latest .. claim the DU is a banned chemical and nuclear weapon ..

First, who banned it .. the anti-DU crusaders, Rokke, Salsman, Rabbit Dung and their hangers on .. the UN hasn’t.  The International Court in the Hague never recognized the War Crimes Kangaroo Courts at which another anti-DU crusader Leuren Moret testified. 

Second .. Depleted Uranium is neither a chemical nor nuclear weapon.  A Chemical Agent is a gas, the first was Chlorine Gas, used by the Germans in WW-I in trench warfare; then Mustard, then the Nerve Gases, Tabun, Sarin, Soman and VX.  DU is not one of these. 

Third, any time anyone tries to point out the many fallacies of the anti-DU crowd, they are derided, claimed to be shills, when in reality, the anti-DU crowd are the bullies with the shills like Rabbit Dung who does not have the guts to privately write me and provide me his name.  I guess he does not want to stand up in a court of law and swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth under penalty of perjury.  If he is not willing to do that, why should you who are not confirmed members of the anti-DU crowd choose to believe him.  Go look up the facts, learn about NORM, Naturally Occuring Radioactive Materials, with Uranium being among the most common of these.  Learn about background radiation; learn what the actual physical properties of DU oxide dust are and how far such a dense substance is likely to blow.  Don’t take my word for it, go learn for your self, but do consult a chemist or a physicist and don’t take the word of the anti-DU charlatans.

Well Rabbit Dung, ready to swear under penalty of perjury?  If I don’t hear from you in my personal mailbox, I will presume that you are not and will make sure this comment list is fully aware that you are not sure enough of your bovine excrement to stand behind it in a court of law.

Given the following statement in Boston Globe article about study of the foreign fighters in Iraq,

“Obaid said in an interview from London that his Saudi study found that ‘’the largest group is young kids who saw the images [of the war] on TV and are reading the stuff on the Internet. Or they see the name of a cousin on the list or a guy who belongs to their tribe, and they feel a responsibility to go."”

What effect do you anti-DU activists think that you are creating?  I think you are helping to create suicide bombers.  Are you proud of yourselves?

Boston Globe
July 17, 2005
Pg. 1

Study Cites Seeds Of Terror In Iraq

War radicalized most, probes find

By Bryan Bender, Globe Staff

WASHINGTON—New investigations by the Saudi Arabian government and an Israeli think tank—both of which painstakingly analyzed the backgrounds and motivations of hundreds of foreigners entering Iraq to fight the United States—have found that the vast majority of these foreign fighters are not former terrorists and became radicalized by the war itself.

Now Colonel Rabbit shall just prove what a F**king Liar you are again. Not illegal eh?

WIKIPEDIA

“In 1996 and 1997, the United Nations Human Rights Commission in Geneva, passed a resolution to ban the use of depleted uranium weapons. The Subcommission adopted resolutions which include depleted uranium weaponry amongst “weapons of mass and indiscriminate destruction, ... incompatible with international humanitarian or human rights law.” (Secretary General’s Report, 24 June 1997, E/CN. 4/Sub.2/1997/27)

A UN report of 2002 states that DU weapons also potentially breach each of the following laws: The Universal Declaration of Human Rights; the Charter of the United Nations; the Genocide Convention; the Convention Against Torture; the four Geneva Conventions of 1949; the Conventional Weapons Convention of 1980; and the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907. All of these laws are designed to spare civilians from unwarranted suffering in or after armed conflicts.

According to the UN, the resolutions in 1996-97 were passed because DU breaches several international laws concerning inhumane weapons: it is not limited in time or space to the legal field of battle, or to military targets; it continues to act after the war; it is “inhumane” by virtue of its ability to cause prolonged or long term death by cancer and other serious health issues, it causes harm to future civilians and passers by (including unborn children and those breathing the air or drinking water); and it has an “unduly negative” and long term effect on the natural environment and food chain. In detail:

Weapons may only be used in the legal field of battle, defined as legal military targets of the enemy in war. Weapons may not have an adverse effect off the legal field of battle. DU shells burn into fine particles which remain in the air or the environment. So they infect others over a wide range, and future passers-by, with uranium poisoning.
Weapons can only be used for the duration of an armed conflict. A weapon that is used or continues to act after the war is over violates this criterion.
Weapons may not be unduly inhumane. Weapons that cause cancer and illness long after the war are widely considered to be legally “inhumane”. Health issues to unborn children and civilians may also be crimes against humanity under international law.
Weapons may not have an “unduly negative” effect on the natural environment. The dust from DU impact becomes widespread in the environment, and (as with other heavy metals) becomes highly concentrated within living beings and the food chain.”

Next lie Roger?

Weaponized Ceramic Uranium Oxide Gas betrays the motives of its users in the US military and its advocates in politics, government and society. Just as surely as the Nazi’s poisonous hydrogen cyanide gas does for an impartial war crimes investigator.

Death Penalty for you nazis and supporters. Get yourselves a few meters of good hemp rope people, learn how to make a hangmans noose. There are going to be a fair few of these scum and the work could take a while. Best therefore you prepare to share the load. It doesn’t matter who hangs them just so long as they swing. Use their corpses to buy back some respect in the world, it would be cheap at twice the price. Good luck.

Dance, Dance, Jiggity, Jiggity Dance.

Rabbit enjoyed that.

Whistles, here doggy, come doggy.

Yoh Rabbit!  Don’t be to pissed at me.

I would like to talk to this guy!
Your points are valid.
I know this guy is the “Banality of Evil”
But he does not know it.

I have not the time to read your book, good friend Rabbit.
I do not post very often here.
I have not the time.
I have other obligations.

I can’t figure how to send you a “per. Mess”.
I keep getting screwed over.  It keeps telling me to LOG OUT.

Behave yourself. Rabbit.
I know this guy is a goose. BUT
There are people who would like to engage him in dialogue.

But they have not the time to read all your pages of very pointed and yet justified attack.

Relax.  We can’t hold, and skin the guy if your busy peeling off his bark!

Your in a feeding frenzy. 
There are other people standing in line.
Give us a break.  Give him a chance.
He needs enough rope to hang himself.
Your not giving him a chance to take that rope, Pal.

And I do not want to loose good contributors.
Eg. Jsalsman, McCarthy, etc. etc. etc. me included!

Now “ Ram Jet! “ aka Helbig

If DU is no more of a problem than “Lead”, or a “Bag of Fertilizer” or backgreound radiation, why is “Radioactive Nuclear Waste” such a problem.  Because that’s what it is Bros.!
Cut the Crap or we will all leave you to the RABBIT to feed upon.

You have never answered that “RamJet”.
Is it because the people who “indoctrinated” you, never told you?
Or changed the subject when it came up.

If it all drops to the ground, why did they find it in Montenegro, and Albania, places where it was never dispersed.
.
Though Chernobyl, was not all DU it was of the same, or very close density.
Why was Chernobyl a problem.
Why was ‘Fallout” during above ground Nuke testing an issue.
And the resulting world wide, well documented cancer increase?

Because good Sir. The “Particular Size” is so fine so small, It is a cermamic gas! 
It can waft away in a slight breeze!
It can dissolve into the ground water.  It migrates and gets around.

Review my posts on how DU has polluted parts of the “United States”
Not to mention the problems they are having in Puerto Rico, and other places where “DOD” has been screwing people over with this stuff DU.

Answer Question # 1
You have never before attempted to broached this one Helbig.

Well I’m holding your feet to the fire.

Answer it to yourself, before you answer it to me or anybody else.
Why can we not just dump this Sh*t into Landfill.
Or if it’s no more of a problem than a “bag of fertilizer” as you have said and I have documented off this site. 
Why can’t we spread it on our garden or use it as fill.

Now don’t just back pedal on this one Mr. Helbig Military retireed. DEAL with the FACT

Question # 2 – The morality of it all. Using DU, Radoiactive Waste to snuff well over 100,000 souls of which how many were terrorists????

THINK ABOUT IT _ PLEASE THINK ABOUT IT>

Do a google on “Banality of Evil”
Then read a good book on “Indoctrination and Brain Wash” then look in a mirror.

Then have a truly religious experience.
A change of heart and mind!

Dave Llindorf—I see that you are a truly objective reporter .. jumping to conclusions without having done any independent research.  How much of your article is just lifted from the New York Daily News article (I can’t tell because I don’t really have the bucks .. the paymasters have not come through .. to obtain the article(s) from the Daily News archives ..

A real investigative reporter would verify that Sergeant Matthews really had symptoms of depleted uranium poisioning, not that Asaf Durakovic, who seems to ignore naturally occuring uranium when he makes his pronouncements of being able to detect minute levels of so-called depleted uranium (how he tells the difference between DU and naturally occuring U-238 is something that your readers would really like to know) .. not that Durakovic has not claimed that Matthews has been poisoned by DU.  A real investigative reporter would not just show us a picture of the Sergeant and his daughter, but would show how the daughter’s condition most likely was due to DU and not due to any other cause.  A real investigative reporter would explain how they reached that conclusion.

Then again, since Llindorf prefers to comment on this list along with such objective commentators as Rabbit Dung and his hangers on, I guess it is pretty clear that Llindorf is not even a real reporter, let alone a bonafide investigative reporter.  What paper have you reported for in the past?  Do you have a journalism degree?  Did you ever write for anything other than a biased internet rag?

Rokke can not allow anyone to try and inject common sense and science .. it spoils the theatre.  I wonder what I will find when I finally get his military records.  I wonder what a FOIA request will reveal about his employment at the Army Radiation Laboratory.  A real investigative reporter would have probed Rokke’s past, not just lapped up whatever he put in the bowl.

I am an individual, not paid by anyone, not affiliated with anyone and not under anyone’s control.  The Pentagon forgot about me long ago .. and I never had a thing to do with depleted uranium as either a member of the active Air Force, the reserve components of the Air Force or as a civilian employee of the Department of Defense.  What I did get was enough grounding in radioactive substances to recognize Rokke’s bovine excrement when I saw it.  For that, I get slandered all over the world, but that is the way with you anti-DU activists .. you attack anyone who does not agree with you or spout your lies.

Announcement:

This site encourages debate about issues. The truth may be discussed but it is not in any way intended that truth should be established beyond doubt. Any poster caught seriously removing all doubt about any issue which is too unflattering to the US government or its employees will be edited out and locked out of the site. Furthermore their computer will suffer a serious hacking attack.

This thread has been re-arranged so as to undo some of the damage to credibility of a troll who is quite active on this site.

Another thread on New Orleans has had to have similar treatment because someone said too many true things about the US government.

Members are encouraged to discuss things but this site reserves the right to curtail excessive imbalance of truth. Balance means equal amount of lies and truth.

War is Freedom
The dangers of DU are in doubt.
All animals are equal.
Some are more equal than others.

There is No Rabbitvoz
There never was anybody called Rabbitvoz
There is nothing to see here folks.

Any member mentioning someone called Rabbit as having been a real person will be terminated.
You have been warned.

“Any member mentioning someone called Rabbit as having been a real person will be terminated”
??????WHAT KIND OF CRAP IS THAT?????
That’s weird
Jeeze “Rabbit” I told you not to get to pissed.

Anyway.
YOH!  Ramjet

ANSWER MY QUESTIONS _ CRETIN _ ANSWER THEM!

As far as Rokke, & Moret and their Bona Fides is concerned..

Posted by Ramjet
“I guess he does not want to stand up in a court of law and swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth under penalty of perjury”
He could be brought into a court of law and exposed”

Have you ever asked yourself Roger, why they have not been dragged into court?

If they are entirely phony and propagating lies .
Lies that about their claims as to their histories and credentials
Lies that as you claim, damage legitimate government programs.
Lies that give comfort to the enemies of The United States.

The government would have them in a court of law and they would be muzzled sued and no doubt prosecuted both in civil and criminal court.

Especially given the new goosey powers they have acquired under the Patriot Acts.

The fact that the DOD, do not want to touch them with a barge pole speaks volumes as to their credibility.  DU would become a national issue and would be exposed.

------------------------

Posted by Ramjet on September 2, 2005 at 3:13 AM
I got into this because I have some knowledge of radioactive materials gained from taking a class in 1973 at Lowry AFB with field work at Rocky Mountain Arsenal, from leading a detection and decontamination team for two years, from being a reservist with the Alameda County Office of Civil Defense and from working closely with nuclear engineers in the decontamination and closure of a nuclear shipyard.

You have been Indoctrinated. The gray matter thoroughly scubbed.
You have been trained and programmed like a LAPTOP.
You move their motions and speak their words.

Posted by jsalsman on September 2, 2005 at 3:41 AM
“many of them have heavy professional and emotional investments in their negative
conclusions”

That’s you Roger, Wake up!  THINK ABOUT IT!

But before you do.  ANSWER MY QUESTIONS

One---Landfill
Two --- Morality

Speaking of “Morality” here’s a test!  See where you stand!

[B]THIS IS A TEST[/B]

I don’t know where it came from.
This test only has one question, but it’s a very important one. By giving an honest answer, you will discover where you stand morally. The test features an unlikely, completely fictional situation in which you will have to make a decision. Remember that your answer needs to be honest, yet spontaneous.

Please scroll down slowly and give due consideration to each line. You are in Florida, Miami to be specific. There is chaos all around you caused by a hurricane with severe flooding. This is a flood of biblical proportions. You are a photojournalist working for a major newspaper,
and you’re caught in the middle of this epic disaster. The situation is nearly hopeless. You’re trying to shoot career-making photos. There are houses and people swirling around you, some disappearing under the water. Nature is unleashing all of its destructive fury.

Suddenly you see a man floundering in the water. He is fighting for his life, trying not to be taken down with the debris. You move closer. somehow the man looks familiar. You suddenly realize who it is.It’s George W. Bush!

At the same time you notice that the raging waters are about to take him under...forever. You have two options--you can save the life of G.W. Bush or you can shoot a dramatic Pulitzer Prize winning photo, documenting the death of one of the world’s most powerful men.

So here’s the question, and please give an honest answer:

Would you select high contrast color film, or would you go with the classic simplicity of black and white?
Forgive the diversion.  A little humor even if it is a little sick.  Please forgive.

Eadora, if you don’t know what I meant you missed something. Rabbit already answered you last post with
“Bunny Quiet Promise”

But it along with all my comments has been edited out and if you think it was only my attack of Roger, better check out the NO thread. Weirdly though Rabbit commenst on other thread still there, but Rabbit is locked out and his computer suffered massive hack attack this afternoon.

This is another computer and Rabbit slipped in back door.

See this thread. It’s short and sri-oracle tells all.

Expect they find me and shut this handle down too soon. Don’t beleive me check it out.

http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/2310/

Ramjet/Helbig wrote: “I see that James Salsman ... now claims to be more expert than Dr. Melissa McDairmid who does the research....”

I never claimed to be more expert, just to have found something she and all her colleagues and counterparts in other countries have missed.  The best researcher will tell you that a few days in the library can save a few years in the laboratory.  The Gmelin Handbook states that the “taking up of oxygen by U3O8 [is] not infrequently ignored.”

“read the many replies from the experts on the Radsafe list.  Then you will find that he spins considerably....”

Care to point to an example?  Few on RADSAFE have the guts to answer many of my questions, preferring to ignore them instead.  A lot of them are invested in the issue, and a lot of them don’t need any controversy. At least the CHPs in the Department of Transportation pulled the free-ride exemption for DU that the nuclear waste and munitions industries had enjoyed for so long.  Do you think they did so because they of radiation concerns?  No, they reacted to the difference in the chemical hazard, which is much worse when you consider the UO3(g) vapor produces in a uranium fire, than if you ignore it, as so many on RADSAFE so convieniently do.

“Depleted Uranium is [not] a chemical ... weapon.”

Just because poison gas from a weapon was not intended, doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist.

“How [Asaf Durakovic] tells the difference between DU and naturally occuring U-238 is something that your readers would really like to know.”

The same way everyone else does, with mass spectrographic isotope ratio analysis.  For example see his 2003 and 2005 papers:
http://www.bovik.org/du/inhalation-est.pdf
http://www.bovik.org/du/oef.pdf

DU is safe.  We should add it to our water supply like flouride.  Maybe it will strengthen teeth like it does bullets.

Sri Oracle

Sri,

DU is a metal, it is not soluble in water.  DU is not used to strengthen bullets, but as a bullet, just like a piece of lead, another heavy metal.  Learn more about what DU is by going to www.hps.org and looking at the Ask the Expert Section on Uranium which includes their fact sheet on DU.

Asking the Health Physics Society about DU is like asking the tobacco industry about smoking, before they started losing their lawsuits.  For example, HPS program committee officer and author Colonel Robert N. Cherry claimed in official correspondence to the NRC that, “the army has safely developed and tested depleted uranium ... munitions for many years.  We are determined to continue this record.... use in battle of depleted uranium munitions is essential....”
http://www.bovik.org/du/nrc-2000-petition/army-reply.tif

If you want a neutral source, how about the World Health Organization?  “Until more
information on the chemical form of uranium and DU in the environment is obtained, it would be prudent to assume that it is in a soluble form (ICRP Type F).”—from Chapter 8, “The Chemical Toxicity of Uranium,” of “Depleted Uranium:  Sources, Exposure and Health Effects,” World Health Organization, Ionizing Radiation Unit, 2001.  (UO2, U3O8 are “insoluble” and mostly harmless; uranyl compounds like UO3 are “soluble” and toxic due to their DNA damage.)

Forgot the link for the WHO report quote.  It’s on page 103 here:
http://www.who.int/ionizing_radiation/pub_meet/en/Depluranium4.pdf

Another thing I wanted to respond to:  To whomever said that discussing the effects of DU emboldens our enemies, that’s just wrong on so many levels.  Those who ignore the deleterious effects on our troops and the civilians we are charged with protecting are potentially worse in the long run than the nominal enemies.  If you want to keep the loudest voices from speaking up about DU, then you are going to have to start with the states of Louisiana and Connecticut, which both passed DU monitoring laws.  Should we require the states to give up their soverenity so that we can better coordinate a PR campaign?  No, and we damn well better not touch the First Amendment, either, especially when families’ health is at stake.

It would be instructive to find out who funds Bovik.org and what James Salsman does for a living .. he certainly has not got much time to do anything else but try and confuse people about DU.  Also curious what this organization is.  Maybe you should enlighten this comment forum about just exactly who James Salsman is and how he funds this endless attack against depleted uranium.

I am going to send Professor Emeritus Ronald L. Kathren your comments .. maybe he will reply, but he does not exactly look like he is in the pocket of the DU munitions industry.

Hit a nerve?  I’m just me, funded by myself, via my home business at www.readsay.com.  I got involved when I read the Project Censored stuff a year ago, and decided to spend a day in the Stanford Chemistry Library, where by dumb luck (I have only an incomplete minor in chemistry) I came upon the Ackermann, et al. UO3(g) vapor evidence.  Since then, it’s all fallen together, like shooting fish in a barrel, and it’s become a few-hour-per-day hobby.  I’ve certainly learned a lot about the NRC petition processes.

When you email Ron Kathren, please include the following excerpts from his web site and ask him how he feels about hps.org not publishing anything that suggests uranium can harm any organs other than the kidneys:

“before the discovery and availability of insulin, uranium was used therapeutically for the treatment of diabetes; relatively high doses were administered by mouth to patients, but there were no reports of kidney toxicity.”
http://hps.org/publicinformation/ate/q1906.html

“uranium is a weak chemical poison that can seriously damage the kidneys at high blood concentrations. Virtually all of the observed or expected effects are from nephrotoxicity associated with deposition in the kidney tubules and glomeruli damage at high blood concentrations of uranium.”
http://hps.org/publicinformation/ate/q754.html

“Animal studies have shown that sufficiently high doses of uranium ingested into the body will produce damage to the kidneys, and at still greater doses may cause death. However, there are few human data available and those that are available seem to suggest that ingested uranium may not be very toxic to humans.”
http://hps.org/publicinformation/ate/q450.html

“the chemical toxicity of uranium is known to produce minor effects on the kidney, which in humans who have suffered large acute exposures have been transitory and wholly reversible.”
http://hps.org/publicinformation/ate/q746.html

“any such effects from ingestion or inhalation of uranium would likely manifest themselves first in the form of minor effects associated with the kidneys”
http://hps.org/publicinformation/ate/q611.html

“the chemical toxicity of uranium is known to produce minor effects on the kidney”
http://hps.org/newsandevents/newsarchive/oldnews172.html

Mr Salsman,

You indicate that you have a minor in Chemistry; I was under the impression that one has to have a baccalaureate degree and a major in order to have a minor.  I initially also was under the impression that you were a graduate of Carnegie-Mellon University, but then both you and the University corrected me on your having actually completed the requirements for a degree there.  Now, I do not recall that you completed the requirements for a degree at any institution of higher learning.  Perhaps my memory is unclear on that point, would you care to clarify this point.

Ramjet/Roger:

I said I have an “incomplete minor in chemistry.” Have you decided to focus on my credentials because you are unable to address the content of my arguments?

Ramjet

When will you answer my two simple questions!

Or when will you LOOK and perceive the face in the mirror!
Time to WAKE UP! Ramjet.
Answer the questions – FACE THE FACTS!

ONE:  --- WHY cannot we use our Radioactive waste as landfill?
If DU.  is no more of a problem than:  < Background RAD. A Bag of fertilizer, or a bit or Lead., As you contend!  ----- ANSWER – or burn in Hell, like so many Iraqi civilians or US. GI’s

TWO ---- If you cannot answer Query ONE
WHAT is the Morality of Killing with TOXIC WASTE!.
War Crime!

Answer!  – Cretin ANSWER!

Cut the Crap – Look in Past the Smoke you have been fed, and Look into the Mirror!

and ANSWER!  For your own sake ANSWER!

The Ghost of Rabbit still haunts you lying Pentagon SHILL.

You are a gross liar, others have proven you to be a liar. Rabbit has proven you to be a pathetic weasel shill as well.

You mistake opinions for fact and probably wouldn’t know a fact if you were sitting on it, which is no doubt all facts are for you. Something to sit on.

You said DU is not banned weapon as Chemical and Nuclear, the fact is you are a liar and here is a fact which proves it once again. It also by the way provides ample food for speculation about you being tried for war crimes one day also. Of course this will take a test case, you are first in line to be it.

---WIKIPEDIA

In 1996 and 1997, the United Nations Human Rights Commission in Geneva, passed a resolution to ban the use of depleted uranium weapons. The Subcommission adopted resolutions which include depleted uranium weaponry amongst “weapons of mass and indiscriminate destruction, ... incompatible with international humanitarian or human rights law.” (Secretary General’s Report, 24 June 1997, E/CN. 4/Sub.2/1997/27)

A UN report of 2002 states that DU weapons also potentially breach each of the following laws: The Universal Declaration of Human Rights; the Charter of the United Nations; the Genocide Convention; the Convention Against Torture; the four Geneva Conventions of 1949; the Conventional Weapons Convention of 1980; and the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907. All of these laws are designed to spare civilians from unwarranted suffering in or after armed conflicts.

According to the UN, the resolutions in 1996-97 were passed because DU breaches several international laws concerning inhumane weapons: it is not limited in time or space to the legal field of battle, or to military targets; it continues to act after the war; it is “inhumane” by virtue of its ability to cause prolonged or long term death by cancer and other serious health issues, it causes harm to future civilians and passers by (including unborn children and those breathing the air or drinking water); and it has an “unduly negative” and long term effect on the natural environment and food chain. In detail:

Weapons may only be used in the legal field of battle, defined as legal military targets of the enemy in war. Weapons may not have an adverse effect off the legal field of battle. DU shells burn into fine particles which remain in the air or the environment. So they infect others over a wide range, and future passers-by, with uranium poisoning.
Weapons can only be used for the duration of an armed conflict. A weapon that is used or continues to act after the war is over violates this criterion.
Weapons may not be unduly inhumane. Weapons that cause cancer and illness long after the war are widely considered to be legally “inhumane”. Health issues to unborn children and civilians may also be crimes against humanity under international law.
Weapons may not have an “unduly negative” effect on the natural environment. The dust from DU impact becomes widespread in the environment, and (as with other heavy metals) becomes highly concentrated within living beings and the food chain.

Seems pretty conclusive to Rabbit. Rambo

United Nations:

http://www.unhchr.ch/tbs/doc.nsf/(Symbol)/7afeec7003489bb7802567550045e27a?Opend document

http://www.unhchr.ch/Huridocda/Huridoca.nsf/(Symbol)/E.CN.4.Sub.2.2002.38.En?Ope endocument

http://www.unep.org/pdf/iraq_ds_lowres.pdf

Scientific:

http://www.royalsoc.ac.uk/landing.asp?id=1243

Now if there was any real scientific organisation in the world who would support genocidal ideas it would have to be this bunch of Ape descendants. Even the Royal Society isn’t prepared to ultimately sacrifice it’s credibility by running with you on this. The truly informed will know what this means.

http://www.ead.anl.gov/pub/doc/Depleted-Uranium.pdf

http://www.ead.anl.gov/pub/doc/Uranium.pdf

http://www.sandia.gov/news-center/news-releases/2005/def-nonprolif-sec/snl-dusan nd.pdf

Other:

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0508/S00085.htm

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uranium/0,7368,419839,00.html

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/04/05/1356248&mode=thread& ;tid=25

Another 500 links here:

http://www.betterworldlinks.org/du.htm

These links can provide a massive amount of facts, DU lovers. Get some real facts into you then think about them a bit after a while you will notice a strange process happening in your head. As the process coagulates into new thoughts, which will be distinguishable for you by being new and maybe a little frightening, recognise that these things are opinions. Real opinions. We all here value these things in ourselves and others. What we do get impatient with is arguing facts against opinions. Actually it is pointless arguing with someone who cannot distinguish the two, but of course only the person with the facts can see this.

Rabbit will let you guys skin him now, if he needs it. Hope I do that he will join the human race, such stubborness can be a strength when channelled into truth and good.

Rabbitvoz

I swear Roger that this will be the last post I will direct your way if you will answer with a clear unequivocal yes, that you have read the post, taken from Wikipedia, and that you have verified it’s accuracy. Answer Rabbit Yes on this one and he will say no more to you or about you on this thread. Bunny promise.

Rabbit wants to establish that you actually believe your words, enough to stake your life on it. Your words are putting others lives at stake in our collective opinion, therefore put it where your mouth is and LTC Roger Helbig, answer for Rabbit and the world.

I Roger Helbig known as Ramjet have read the Wikipedia quote and have verified it’s veracity.

From there on you’re on your own, I Steve Pallister, known as Rabbit will not even say boo to you.

GhostRabbit, what ARE you smoking?  Gotta get ME some of that.  Do you ship internationally?

The link you provided just above:

http://www.royalsoc.ac.uk/landing.asp?id=1243

Within that link is this link:

http://www.royalsociety.org/document.asp?id=1402

Which contains thus:

The Part I report draws the following conclusions:

Except in extreme circumstances any extra risks of developing fatal cancers as a result of radiation from internal exposure to DU arising from battlefield conditions are likely to be so small that they would not be detectable above the general risk of dying from cancer over a normal lifetime.

The greatest exposures will apply only to a very small fraction of the soldiers in a theatre of war, for example those who survive in a vehicle struck by a DU penetrator. In such circumstances, and assuming the most unfavourable conditions, the lifetime risk of death from lung cancer is unlikely to exceed twice that in the general population.

Any extra risks of death from leukaemia, or other cancers, as a result of exposure to DU are estimated to be substantially lower than the risks of death from lung cancer. Under all likely exposure scenarios the extra lifetime risks of fatal leukaemia are predicted to be too small to be observable.

Many soldiers on a battlefield may be exposed to small amounts of DU and the risks of cancer from such exposures are predicted to be very low. Even if the estimates of risk for these conditions are one hundred times too low, it is unlikely that any excess of fatal cancer would be detected within a cohort of 10,000 soldiers followed over 50 years.

Epidemiological studies complement assessments of actual exposures and radiation risks. Although epidemiological studies of occupational exposure to uranium are not sensitive enough to detect small increases in overall risks of cancer, they nevertheless tend to confirm the calculations of the risks derived from estimates of actual exposures to DU.

The main conclusions of the Part II report are:

The risks to the kidney and other organs and tissues from the use of DU in munitions are very low for most soldiers on the battlefield and for those living in the conflict area.

In extreme conditions and under worst-case assumptions, soldiers who receive large intakes of DU could suffer adverse effects on the kidney and lung.

Environmental contamination will be very variable but in most cases the associated health risks due to DU will be very low. In some worst-case scenarios high local levels of uranium could occur in food or water that could have adverse effects on the kidney.

Again, DO YOU SHIP INTERNATIONALLY?

Natalie: 

Part I of that Royal Society report only evaluates radiological hazard; Part II discusses the chemical toxicity without considering reproductive or immune system effects.  The closest they get is:  “There is recent evidence that uranium may directly damage genetic material and there is a possibility of damage to DNA due to the chemical effects being enhanced by the effects of the alpha-particle irradiation.”

The following publications document uranium’s reproductive and developmental toxicity and its damage to the immune system.  Who knows why the Royal Society ignored these primary sources and peer-reviewed medical publications:

Voegtlin and Hodge, editors, Pharmacology and Toxicology of Uranium (New York: McGraw-Hill, any edition; e.g., “Degenerative changes in the testes resulting in aspermia in the testes and epididymis ... a result of uranyl nitrate,” appears in the 1953 chapter by E.A. Maynard, et al., “Oral toxicity of uranium compounds,” in vol. 3, pp. 1221-1369)

Q. Hu and S. Zhu, “Induction of chromosomal aberrations in male mouse germ cells by uranyl fluoride containing enriched uranium,” Mutation Research, vol. 244 (1990), pp. 209-214

T.C. Pellmar, et al., “Distribution of uranium in rats implanted with depleted uranium pellets,” Toxicol. Sci., vol. 49 (1999), pp. 29-39

A.C. Miller, et al., “Depleted uranium-catalyzed oxidative DNA damage: absence of significant alpha particle decay,” Journal of Inorganic Biochemistry, vol. 91, no. 1 (2002), pp. 246-252:
http://www.bovik.org/du/Miller-DNA-damage.pdf

J.L. Domingo, et al., “The Developmental Toxicity of Uranium in Mice,” Toxicology, vol. 55 (1989), pp. 143-152.

A.F. Malenchenko, et al., “Effect of uranium on the induction and course of experimental autoimmune orchitis and hyroiditis,” J. Hyg. Epidemiol. Microbiol. Immunol., vol. 22 (1978), pp. 268-277.

However, while the Royal Society ignored uranium’s reproductive toxicity, the U.K. government has acknoledged it in this Pension Appeals Board ruling:

“A former soldier has become the first veteran to win a war pension appeal after suffering depleted uranium poisoning during the Gulf War. Kenny Duncan took the Ministry of Defence to the Pensions Appeal Tribunal Service over his claim that he suffered depleted uranium poisoning during active service in Iraq.

The father of three, from Clackmannanshire, served with the Royal Corps of Transport as a specialist tank transporter during the first Gulf War in 1991. Part of his job was to move Iraqi tanks destroyed by depleted uranium shells. Mr Duncan’s case relied on blood tests carried out by Dr Albrecht Schott, a German biochemist, which revealed chromosome aberrations caused by ionising radiation. The tribunal found that Mr Duncan’s exposure to the uranium was attributable to his service in the Gulf.

“Dr Schott’s research formed part of a study of 16 British veterans of conflicts in the Gulf, Bosnia, and Kosovo, which found that they had 14 times the usual level of chromosome abnormalities in their genes, raising fears that they will pass cancers and genetic illnesses to their offspring. Kenny Duncan believes that his children’s health problems are linked to his service in the Gulf war. All three were born with deformed toes and low immune systems.”

-- http://www.cadu.org.uk/info/veterans/17_1.htm

James,

These are all fascinating sounding studies, but I have a feeling the reason they weren’t relevant to the Royal Society is because they didn’t apply to real world situations.

Obviously, you can make mice sick if you feed ‘em enough of anything.  The unfounded fears that have been unleashed upon the public due to those squeaky little devils is legendary.

The Royal Society seems to be focused on what the dangers of DU are on soldiers and on people that subsequently encounter the battlefield.  Not mice.

Court cases are not in any way relevant to scientific reality.  Just ask Nicole Simpson, if only you could.

That Natalie, and you know what I think of you. Is totally beside the point. There are over five hundred links included above, many amny more than the royal society.

For a sweet all american girl with an open mind you sure seem determined to prove that DU is safe. Your juvenile attempt to be insulting doesn’t cast a shadow on the devastating attacks backed by truth to which you have already succumbed. Your persona is false and we know this, nothing about you adds up and you are shilling not discussing.

Anyway, The royal society is one, deal with all of the rest, you open minded girl.

But before you try any more of your crap on, nobody likes you have you noticed? Do please read the Rabbit’s direct cut and paste from WIKIPEDIA above then do what I asked LTC Roger Helbig,put it where your mouth is or be labelled a false shill. Verify the veracity of the quote, check the references given if you don’t trust WIKIPEDIA. (Can’t trust it maybe they are part of our anti-DU cabal after all.) Ramjet has not replied to this nor can he) Unless as it is Rabbit’s earnest he is having an epiphany this very moment. In Rabbit’s opinion, the Roger Ramjet is probably hiding behind your skirt. You see that Natalie Rabbit noted that was an opinion and since there is much that would suggest this it is not an unreasonable opinion to have. Right or wrong and I don’t much care either way, it doesn’t make me a liar. If I had said you were definately the Helbig alter ego I would then be lying. You see to state an opinion as fact is lying. But to have a wrong opinion especially a qualified one, is quite forgivable on its own.

To deny that the use of DU is a war crime, is a lie. Therefore confirm you have read and understood the veracity, then give us your opinion. Even though most of us can predict your opinions on just about anything, (We can watch TV, the script, too) Rabbit even is stumped on what your opinion may be after having read and understood this fact. Rabbit is not interested in arguing opinions with people. He will express his and you may welcome to yours. What Rabbit will ensure is that facts are established, nobody can argue facts. They are either provable or not. If not they are opinion.

What will it be Natalie. Will you now morph into a third face and avoid this one question?

Rabbit isn’t even asking two, twice as hard, like Eadora. Rabbit has less ambition, he will settle for your opinion, based on a provable, agreed fact. One question if you dare.

You have continued to claim you are trying to make your mind up Natalie. You have cheered for Ramjet several times despite the fact that quite a few people have clearly and independantly using many different sources and making clear points, destroyed everything Ramjet is and has said. He has been exposed, last time challenged him on the WAR Crimes issue he vanished until Rabbit suddenly was pulled from the site. The site has re-instated my other posts and Rabbit is happy to let his personal attacks of Roger stay off. He heard me once, he knows how utterly he was licked. As soon however as Rabbit seemed out of the way, the Colonel crawled back under the door and began his usual tricks of waffle, waffle, lie lie. Now Rabbit presents the same fact and ping, gone is the Colonel and Ping, back is the Natalie.
Rabbit has pointed out from the first time he read your hollow words, Natalie, you are also a Disinfo Shill and whether or not you are a Pentagon female, or Roger in drag does not matter you have completely given the game away. You have no choice but to verify the FACT that the US is committing a war crime with DU, and then offer your opinion about this. Good or bad. Rabbit predicts you will dissapear rather than face up to one indisputable fact. You will argue opinions till the piper must be paid, but one indisputable fact which throws your lies into focus, then what? Run away? Lie some more? Waffle or try to be smart and hope nobody notices you’re not answering a straight question? We have noticed Natalie.

Walk the plank Captain Natalie.

You’re somewhat less abusive now, Rabbit, and that’s appreciated.  You still don’t seem to have gotten over your paranoia, although there are signs it’s on the wane.

You sure like to demand things from people a lot, don’t you.  Eadora does too.  Hmmm....could it be?  Rabbit and Eadora the same person?  Seems plausible enough.  ;-) Damn the science, I deem it so!!

Let me ask you some questions, and I’ll attempt to answer yours when I have more time.

Why would all these scientists at the Royal Society, whatever that is, put their reputations and credibility on the line by making such definitive statements as those above?

Why do so many other reputable scientists do the same?

Why do most of the scientists on the other side of the argument seem so often to be hiding their true credentials and backgrounds?

You seem actually be quite a creative and prolific writer, Rabbit.  You’re very entertaining and endearing in a strange way.  Might you point us to some other writings you’ve made on the web?

Natalie:

Perhaps the Royal Society ignored the reproductive toxicity of uranium in their report because it was written before the publication of these papers:

“Overall, the risk of any malformation among pregnancies reported by men was 50% higher in [U.K.] Gulf War Veterans (GWV) compared with Non-GWVs”
-- Doyle et al. Int. J. Epidemiol., vol. 33 (2004), pp. 74-86:
http://ije.oupjournals.org/cgi/content/full/33/1/74

“Infants conceived postwar to male [U.S.] GWVs had significantly higher prevalence of tricuspid valve insufficicieny (relative risk [RR], 2.7; 95% confidence interval [CI], 1.1-6.6; p = 0.039) and aortic valve stenosis (RR, 6.0; 95% CI, 1.2-31.0; p = 0.026) compared to infants conceived postwar to nondeployed veteran males. Among infants of male GWVs, aortic valve stenosis (RR, 163; 95% CI, 0.09-294; p = 0.011) and renal agenesis or hypoplasia (RR, 16.3; 95% CI, 0.09-294; p = 0.011) were significantly higher among infants conceived postwar than prewar.”
-- Birth Defects Res A Clin Mol Teratol. vol. 67, no. 4 (2003), pp. 246-60: http://www.bovik.org/du/mscusn/BD_Infants_GWV_AR_AZ_CA_GA_HI_IA_1989-1993.pdf

If anyone has hypothesized any substance other than uranium which could have caused an increase in birth defects in U.S. and U.K. troops as well as Basrah civilians, I haven’t heard about it.  And believe me, I’ve been asking around.  Not even any of the NRC DU munitions licensees have been able to come up with an alternative hypothesis in their response to my 10 CFR 2.206 petition, and the best the uranium mining industry was able to do in response to my NRC rulemaking petition was find an M.D., Dr. Nancy Standler, who said, “… if your committee were to decide that you wanted to worry about the reproductive toxicity effects, it is not at all clear that you would be able to figure out what an appropriate acceptable exposure would be.”

Sincerely,
James

Natalie, you are right about Rabbit in many ways, whether or not you realise it. Stop trying to copy Rabbit’s style, your attempts at wit go up like lead balloons. You don’t fool anybody with your transparent avoidance of one real, verifiable fact. Eadora and Rabbit have been straight up with you. You just keep wriggling. We are not doing more than asking you to prove you believe in your cause. Remember do you how you claimed from the start and repeatedly since that you just trying to make up your mind? Rabbit called you from the start, you have been referring to Rabbit as Paranoid from the start, for doing no more than “correctly” identifying your game and the Ramjets. Since you have stuck to the script perfectly as Rabbit predicted, don’t you think it’s time to stop pretending Rabbit was ever wrong about you?  You are not convincing anyone, why don’t you ask if anyone believes you are what you say?

Like Roger you keep on demonstarting your paranoia. You seem so sure that we on this site are not who we say we are. James, Rabbit, others too have stated their position clearly. Names given too. Ramjet got such a shock when his name came out he went berserk trying to get Rabbit to do same, thinking somehow this could cause Rabbit as much consternation as he felt. But no, Rabbit gave his name and all without hesitation and Ramjet proved what a cretin he is by continuing to demand it. Didn’t he read the post to which he was answering? Of course not.

Rabbit has not changed dear Natalie. At 42 am a Fire Rabbit born of Water, we don’t change.

Natalie, Rabbit is what he has been for a long time. Rabbit once was a lone voice in the widerness. Now the crowd is growing. Nat, Rabbit has for a while actually decided you are Female after all, even though Rabbit’s 14 yo son read you and said you not. What would a teenager know about girls, eh? What Rabbit would guess though is that you are military female, explains the martial tone. Just a harmless guess, sweetheart. Opinion you know. facts are the only thing Rabbit is prepared to argue, opinions all are welcome to. Rabbit knows the answer to everything and the reason for war, and argument and hate. It is due only to people having lost the ability, (maybe never had it), of distinguishing Fact from Opinion.

More for Natalie…

Rabbit has requested and does so again that you deal with the one fact, clearly pointed to by WIKIPEDIA above. Don’t argue it as an opinion, it isn’t. It is a fact, if you truly as smart as Rabbit suspects, you must know the truth of what Rabbit has said. Natalie, Rabbit has stated his opinions, directly and indirectly. Rabbit is not arguing these with anyone. All Rabbit is trying to do is establish a fact which is irrevocable, so we can move on from here.

Rabbit has said your opinion is yours, but, you must say what is your opinion to the fact that use of DU by US and Britain is banned under international law.

Remember, you can’t say it isn’t banned, Roger did and knows he is beat. If he crawls back, he will be pinned to the wall. Even if he follows the WIKIPEDIA post without acknowledging it it is likely that the evidence will swtand in court. Bet he is consulting with lawyers right this minute in fact.

Natalie you actually like Rabbit a bit, and he hasn’t given up on you. Rabbit has tried to give you the most simple tool with which to reclaim, your soul. One irrefutable fact which forces you to form an opinion of your own. If your military and country are committing not one, but several war crimes, do you support this?

Natalie, if you face up to that, you know what you must answer, Rabbit knows. After that everything else is academic, you know it Nat. Babe, the people for whom you are shilling don’t care about you. They are sacrificing many people better than you on a daily basis and loving it. They will use you then caste you aside when it suits them or because someone forgot to fill in the right form.

Natalie, the things you sense about Rabbit are not imaginary. Rabbit knows things you do not. Rabbit is a magic Rabbit. Rabbit is not in the world to cause more arguments and wars, he is here to stop this silliness. Rabbit has given many the keys to true freedom and they are yours for the taking. Just force yourself to look at the one fact then answer it.

yes Rabbit has been around and is known on the net. Rabbit will have a blog or site up soon by popular request. (famous Rabbit) But has resisted this for long because he feels there is already too much of this. Better we could concentrate humanity a bit more so they could share more of what we all have in common, ideals. From such a start we might come to realise we have no differences beyond opinions. These would be closer thinks Rabbit if all had the right faxcts upon which to base opinions. Please Natalie, join the winning side. We do have the numbers, we are winning. Go to the New Orleans thread and save Rabbit saying more here. It has been said there.

=--- Rabbit

Natalie, Roger & all DU Apologists

A bit of a Re-post here
Seems I must remind you.  I need a couple of answers from you

Answers to questions you have consistently ignored.

When will you answer my two simple questions!

Or when will you LOOK and perceive the face in the mirror!
.
Answer the questions – FACE THE FACTS!

ONE:  ---
If DU.  is no more of a problem than the Background RAD. in bag of fertilizer, or a bit or Lead., As you contend!  -----
ANSWER – WHY cannot we use our Radioactive waste in landfill?
WHY is it an issue???

TWO ---- If you cannot answer Query ONE
WHAT is the Morality of Killing with TOXIC WASTE!

If You cannot answer these most simple questions all your arguments and disinformation collapses.

And the Rabbit is right, it is a most egregious “War Crime” for Sure!

Why attempt to defend the indefensible?
You do YOURSELF damage.
And that is banality of evil.

Answer! 
Cut the Crap – Look in Past the Smoke you have been fed, and Look into the Mirror!

and ANSWER!  For your own sake ANSWER!

Mr. Salsman,

From your link, which was:

http://ije.oupjournals.org/cgi/content/full/33/1/74

Looking at the free abstract, and reading the conclusion:

“ We found no evidence for a link between paternal deployment to the Gulf war and increased risk of stillbirth, chromosomal malformations, or congenital syndromes. Associations were found between fathers’ service in the Gulf war and increased risk of miscarriage and less well-defined malformations, but these findings need to be interpreted with caution as such outcomes are susceptible to recall bias. The finding of a possible relationship with renal anomalies requires further investigation. There was no evidence of an association between risk of miscarriage and mothers’ service in the gulf.”

How does this conclusion support your apparent contention that this study would have somehow changed the Royal Society’s conclusion?

It seems to me to be rather consistent.  Not necessarily a total pass, but certainly no support for the level of hysteria we see from some.

No hysteria other than yours child, just answer the Rabbit and stop embarrassing yourself.

Cannot ignore something as big as this forever.

Not even if we are “not exactly open minded” dear girl.

You have expressed opinions. Rabbit has raised one fact which relates very directly to your opinion, Eadora another, they are facts, they do reflect on the stance you have displayed from word go. You must either deal with them or nothing else you say looks to be anything than avoiding facts.

You want to talk about opinions, yet you won’t put yours to the test. The test of how does it stack up against an irrefutable fact.

If you can’t recognise a calm patient and immeasurably superior soul when he is addressing you, labelling him a looney is lunacy.

Have you ever seen a child trying to best an adult in an argument?

Give your opinion on how the Wikipedia entry relates to DU usage by a supposedly superior nation.

Natalie, stop w*nking. The Royal society was one out of more than five hundred references and Rabbit pointed out that they of all scientific groups would bend over backwards for the military. You know nuthin Babe!

If that’s your point of contention, it ain’t worth spit next to the one opinion I’m asking you to formulate. You are yet to formulate that opinion. You are resisting Rabbit’s gentle persuasion, compelling you to look at this one real real shiny thing, which is so captivating. The shiny thing Rabbit call it truth, you must but look at it and tell me what you call it Nat. Then Natalie tell Rabbit what opinion you are left with upon some reflection on not just this but all my firm but gentle admonitions. Rabbit knows you are slipping, your soul is not yet dead, that is why Rabbit knew you not the Colonel. (Maybe Captain?) Just a joke, see, Rabbit is a funny thing, looks a bit funny, moves in a weird way and seems to be able to move almost like magic its so quick. But Rabbit not has time for arguing with people forever. Rabbits not live as long as people think they will. Rabbit has just few short years to learn all there is and make it work. Rabbit has no time for most of your foibles and fears. You have but one small problem as a species. You lost the ability, if you ever had it, to recognise true facts and base your opinions on these. You forgot to define your ideals and let others do it for you. Why would you pay anyone to to tell you what you should be dying and killing for. Don’t you already know those few ideals Rabbit has mentioned are all there is. There is no mystery you religious nuts. No spook god in your image or anyone elses. If Rabbit as simple as humans he thinks god is just a bigger version of him who lives longer. You for example.

You are not God. Rabbit knows God must be so big and live for so long he cannot be more or less like the whole universe. No where God will be more than somewhere else. He bigger is than our Rock drifting in space. Why any God would see one side of the Rock’s inhabitantas as any different to those from the other side makes no sense to Rabbit.

So stop taking about science and religion as if these things are ideals, they are not.

I’m not sure you understand my point, Rabbit. You cited the Royal Society link first.  I pointed out that their conclusions on DU tend to support the camp that says it’s not really much of a concern.  I was flabbergasted that you posted the link, thus my question about shipping internationally.  BTW, your first two links on that post were expired or incorrect, unless perhaps it was me.

Mr. Salsman then posted a link to a study that I assume he thought did not support the Royal Society’s conclusions.  I pointed out that they pretty much did.

Are the United Nations resolutions listed on Wikipedia binding?  Does it suprise you that a body composed of so many corrupt, oppressive, anti-American dictators that can’t decide on a definition of terrorism would vote to classify one of our most effective weapons/defenses illegal?

Are you saying we have broken codified international law in using DU weapons?  I’m no more a lawyer than I am a scientist, but I don’t think so.

Now you don’t want to talk about science?

Natalie you are starting to gibber. Rabbit simply cut and pasted a few of the links from the Wikipedia site. The DU issue is thoroughly documented history and not some new debate you are buying into. You are patently trying to create doubt where there is none. You have failed to address the one FACT, instead you try and waffle around it. The United Nations and several other bodies involved with what is a world wide acceptance of the fact that DU weaponry constitues a WAR CRIME. There doesn’t have to be anything more than “ONCE”, your regime falls, and it is going down the gurgler now, cow. Don’t warble on when nobody, except maybe yourself can take you seriously.

All it takes is JUNTA to fall. Resolutions merely reported in WIKIPEDIA, but it has more than enough links for you to verify the quote.

The quote makes the World Opinion about this. The world, as the majority of the World will define itself, chickens, will look to these resolutions which you will note were passed and have actually been strengthened since I might add.

They will then hold the people who authorised, carried out and supported these attacks accountable. You do not have to be a lawyer. You will be able to hire one, or one will otherwise be appointed for you. For this itself you should be grateful, because right now many people who have done far less than you are being held, without charge, without contact with their families, or even decent conditions in which to spend their time between torture sessions. By the Junta you so openly, brazenly support. Or at least you slyly support their most inhumane act so far, the wickedest most insane act of long term genocide in recorded history.

Would you like to give us your name, something Rabbit never asked of anyone yet. Would you like to attach your name to the list of known supporters, (propagandists they’ll probably call you, but Rabbit will be polite), of the US military use of Depleted Uranium Weapons in contravention of Interneational treaties and lord knows how many individual countries laws.

If you are cool with that even Rabbit will have to take you seriously, he will see if he can find anyway to explain such a crazy act.

Rabbit no lawyer either. He has been arrested, been locked up years before getting to court only to have charges thrown out, always was lies, could prove it but we have little more justice than America these days. Knows he does how much fun it isn’t, even when innocent you are.

Consult with a lawyer first, but unless you will risk your life on the chance that you are wrong, why should you be allowed to cheerlead for others to do the same.

Check Fact, Give stance.

Put your ass on the line you vicious vixen, or get the hell off a forum in which you have ceased to be more than a minor amusement for Rabbit now. There will always be enough archives around, stored for decades to come no matter what your crazy bosses pull off.

We’ll retrieve enough so that your antics will live on for the benefit of all.

Do you want to take a risk for the sake of your “cause” Nuclear Nat?

Just a guess but it will soon be proven either way. The only Corrupt (BY US standards)Dictators who could be called oppressive, are actually the only sort of support the US gets in the UN these days. Everybody else is anti US for good reason as we will establish as soon as you grow a spine or, take back your conscience. If you can sell that so cheaply, Rabbit wonders what else you have on the shelf?
and how much?

Natalie? Ramjet?  That’s a long break guys. Surely you have conferred with the Pentagon Lawyers by now. Surely you are ready to put your lives on the line for those soldiers you were so worried we might put in danger with our words. Or maybe you were not so sure after all?

Maybe you were both prepared to con others into sticking their hand into the fire but no way would you take a chance with your own precious lives.

Why is it after you have argued every fact, source and brought up every form of smoke and mirrors an admittedly poverty stricken agency can muster, why is it that at the sight of one, irrevocable FACT. You turn and scuttle away rather than face it and give an opinion.

Strange considering you came on this thread so sure that your opinions were valuable and sacred.

Government Shills!

Rabbit reminds all humans that opinions should never be much different from others’ assuming all have same ideals. Opinions could never be worth dying for unless they are based on fact. Fact will always combat opinions if there is a confl