Gerard Matthew thought he was lucky. He returned from his Iraq tour a year and a half ago alive and in one piece. But after the New York State National Guardsman got home, he learned that a bunkmate, Sgt. Ray Ramos, and a group of N.Y. Guard members from another unit had accepted an offer by the New York Daily News… return to article
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Reader Comments (526)America is practicing illegal nuclear waste dumping
and exposing the poor civilians to all it’s ravages
No one I know would back the use of this weapon on a defensless third world country
it is a war crime against humanity
Only a nazi would back the use of these weapons on cities
only a Nazi would back torture of prisoners
only Nazis !
Posted by skullker on Oct 24, 2005 at 5:37 AM It is gross isn’t it? The thead shows that the reaction has been invariably one of mounting disgust until people just blow their stacks with the whole revolting sham. Ramjet has been here from the start, with a bit of help, which evaporated slowly or quickly, but Ramjet, hero of the Reich is holding the ground yet.
Talk about Custers Last Stand.
Roger’s last stand is this thread. He has been ordered to stick with it and the only way he is getting out is to convince someone to take his place.
Like Atlas, a kind of Anti-Atlas….............That is the Dodgy Rodgy Ramjet
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 24, 2005 at 7:13 AM I figure Colonel Helbig has ducked below the radar again.
He disappeared for 18 days before.
This thread was pretty well inactive till the skullker happend on board.The DOD cockroach probably thought we had moved on and he could come back out onto the kitchen table.
Well the lights go on, the alarms blare out, and Squasho!
I don’t think he expected that.
Posted by Eadora on Oct 24, 2005 at 6:04 PM The scum got what he deserved,defending such a terrible substance and policy!I hope he stays under that five sided rock this time.
Posted by Kaw Valley Kid on Oct 24, 2005 at 8:17 PM Hi Kaw Valley Kid
Good to see you still around.
Has Eadora seen the Natalie has branched out into 911 on the God Squad thread, oh and by the way, Eadora, are you a bloke? ....Rabbit asks, nose twitching, looking up with small shiny eyes.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 25, 2005 at 1:02 AM Here comes more reenforcements ... Kaw Valley Kid ... proverbial six guns blazing. It is a rally around the flag of truth.
Look out Dodgy Rodgy. Looks like we done ambushed you.
The Lights are on. Run and Hide.
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 25, 2005 at 3:12 AM Answer: Yes. and a mean old narlely one that stll spends time in the hills,
This thread has been a good alliance has it not.
If the DU Zombies try to return within the next few decades we’ll have the traps set out.Got to go for now. Probably see you on that other thread in a while. Take care and keep your STOMPIN boots on!
Posted by Eadora on Oct 25, 2005 at 3:52 AM Yuk .....to think Rabbit licked those toes…..............
Not an Amazon a Mountain man then?
Rabbit likes the bush and is more at home there any time.
Cheers, Eadora of the mountains…...........
Rabbit sees the Monk….....................................^^.............................. ...............
By the way, the Ramjet practises his deception elsewheres, Rabbit has seen him about the place, just observed him at this stage, all predictable of course, nothing new, he even does the same order of dancing, and the sit and wait spider act.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 25, 2005 at 4:55 AM Dear readers,
Please note that the following letter was refused publication by the editors of In These Times. Because of that refusal, I have demanded that they remove my name from their masthead as a contributing editor. As a contributor to ITT since its founding in 1978, it pains me to have to do that, but such shabby treatment of a writer cannot be tolerated:To the editors:
I have to take issue with the note that ran on the letters page of the October 24 hard-copy issue of In These Times, apologizing for an “error” in this piece.
This so-called “error”—my claim that the U.S. has used 3000 tons of depleted uranium weapons in the Iraq War, a ten-fold increase over the amount used in the 1990 Gulf War, and my claim that DU in this war is being used not just in A-10 cannon shells and in tank shells as in 1990, but in M-16 bullets, anti-personnel bomblet casings and bunker busting bombs—was based upon testimony at a German conference on DU and more importantly, on information from a source, Capt. Doug Rokke, who in 1994 was head of the Pentagon’s Life Fire DU testing program in the Nevada desert. Rokke, who had access to all the information about DU weapons in the US arsenal, and who continues to be in touch with people who have information about DU weaponry, ran that program to see how DU weapons could be used safely by American troops, and after concluding that it was impossible, has been trashed by the U.S. government as an dreaded whistleblower. He has nonetheless demonstrated his credibility in the face of official slanders to the effect that he: never ran such a program (I have the documentary evidence that he did); was never a captain (I have documentary evidence of his rank), and that he was fired (I have the letters from his superior officers recommending him for a medal of commendation for his work).
The charge that my information about DU usage in Iraq was wrong came in the form of a letter from Jack Cohen-Joppa, a man who claims to be opposed to DU weapons but who has been conducting a one-man campaign aimed at discrediting those who write about it. He bases both his ludicrous claim that just 200 tons of DU weapons have been used in the Iraq war, and his claim that DU is not being used in bunker busting bombs, on Pentagon sources.
That’s fine. If Cohen-Joppa wants to believe the Pentagon, which has lied repeatedly about many aspects of the Iraq war, has an ongoing disinformation campaign underway, has been denying the medical hazards of DU for years, and has deterred and continues to deter returning troops from getting timely testing for DU contamination, that’s his business. If he wants to publish a letter to ITT saying that the Pentagon figures for DU use are correct, and mine are wrong, that’s his business too.
But his faith in the Pentagon doesn’t make my figures wrong, and I object to ITT’s editors’ making that determination based upon Cohen-Joppa’s criticism.
I propose that ITT readers make their own decision as to whether they want to believe my sources or Cohen-Joppa’s.
I do not apologize, though given that Rokke says 2000 tons of DU weapons have been fired off in Iraq (a figure still ten times higher than Cohen-Joffa’s Pentagon figure), I will offer that correction to my piece, I’d even be happy to include in the piece that the Pentagon claims it has only used 200 tons of DU, with the caveat that this would imply that they are using less now than they used in 1990 when they first tried the material out in battle and fell in love with its destructive effectiveness—a ludicrous assertion.
Dave Lindorff
Posted by dlindorff on Oct 25, 2005 at 8:49 PM Kudos To You David Lindorff
Your post : Posted by dlindorff on October 25, 2005 at 3:49 PM
Is a keeper. It goes in my DU file,I remember a valuable very posting of yours from early on, on this thread.
I’ll will go with your figures.Well this is a loaded EGG ain’t it!
200 ton estimate is laughable – or it could make you weep depending on your frame of mind.
The allegations that they do not use DU in bombs & bunker busters is ridiculous.
The holes left all over Baghdad by these ordinances are HOT well over 1000 times normal. One bomb can contain as much as a TON of DU.Remember Shock and Awe. They repeatedly used these damed things to try and dig Saddam of any hole he might be hiding in.
Some of those holes where in proven residential neighborhoods.http://globalresearch.ca/articles/MOR407A.html
This link will give you the description and warhead weight of the various DU ordinances in the US arsenal. “Smart Bombs, & Cruise Missiles, with “Dense Metal Warheads”
All of which have been used in Iraq.To allege that DU has only been used in anti tank ordinance is a bald LIE
I would ask ITT, to do the math!
What the Hell is going on??
REDRESS!Lindorff, I’m Shocked and disappointed with ITT’s response and treatment of to you.
What the hell is going on here at ITT?
This place will be less of less value if they cave in to disinformation so easily!Lindorff!
If it was my name up there, under the circumstances I’d want it taken off!Please continue to post and share any pertinent information.
Information like what you have just shared with us now .
We can use all the help we can get with these Gov Shills & Agents of Disinformation, like Col. Helbig lurking about.Or maybe the new management will ban us all?
ITT what the Hell is going on.
The contention that only 200 tons of DU have been used is patently STUPID!
Are You!
Posted by Eadora on Oct 25, 2005 at 10:08 PM I guess that is what happens when you rely on an unreliable source. I am surprised that Llindorf has not yet caught on that Rokke lives in a fantasy world cheered on by the DU activists who idolize him. Unfortunately, the real world has no DU M-16 bullets ..they would be quite useless as any infantryman could tell them .. they have little stopping power, just aren’t big enough to even stop terrorists let alone a tank!
Posted by Ramjet on Oct 26, 2005 at 4:53 AM What the Hell is going on?
Tell me this is not the thin end of the wedge, ?
Rabbit said they were DESPERATE to keep the lid on this one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ramjet, you and your masters have just gained yourselves a determined enemy.
Rabbit declares you, the ENEMY…................................................^^.................. ...........................
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 26, 2005 at 5:28 AM Write friends, write everybody who gets to this point, this is the time to stand up. Write to the editors of this site, for a grave deceit has been perpetrated, as any who have read this thread can see, the PENTAGON has struck, with LIES Threats and lies.
THERE HAVE BEEN AT LEAST 2500, CLOSER TO 3500 TONS OF DU RELEASED IN IRAQ, SEE THE ABOVE THREAD FOR LOTS of sources and reports.ITT has had it’s judgement hijacked, but have faith friends, they have shown themslevs to be cautious, but honest before, so hopefully TRUTH will prevail again, or we shall rally at Rabbit’s e-mail,, given earlier and strike back with the weight of light before us.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 26, 2005 at 5:40 AM ITT : why oh why ?
Censoring makes us cry.
When the Pentagon came out ot play,
ITT ran away ?
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 26, 2005 at 5:42 AM THANKS to the FREEPER detectors out there: Ghostrabbit, Eadora, Wwoods, Liz, et al.
He (sake of argument) cannot get around you!!
WhoooHooo.
I just want to add one little bit. All this BS Ramjet (and his other incarnations) gives about explosives v. projectiles, etc., is so much dog and pony show. DU will spontaneously ignite on impact, putting out FUMES and GAS that sink deep into the lungs. You measure its half-life in millions of years.
Whoever said it is right: it’s just another ruse, a way to get rid of nuclear waste. It is DENSE stuff, able to penetrate tanks.What else do you need to know?
Hey!
Posted by lbyland on Oct 26, 2005 at 6:56 AM Strike and strike…..................wack ..............wack…............Cut and jab the dragon….......................slice it’s eyes…..........do you get it Ramjet, you stinker? Everybody is awake up to you and your lies and now you have awoken the people. Rabbit warned you, ......dirty Cockroach.. ..........The people will see you and then you are for it, darkness is your only defense…...............................the light is on…....................Wack him and tell the Pentagon what People are NOT,/b> prepared to have done in their names. fight this stuff people, or you willl be complicit in the <b>CRIME. ...............................It is a CRIME Roger, or why did the Pentagon need to seek an exemption from international law as detailed above?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 26, 2005 at 7:03 AM Will the jack-booted goons be busting down my door tonight?
Or tomorrow?
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 26, 2005 at 7:39 AM Gather evidence of the true amounts of DU released, and it’s forms, and write to ITT, demanding they reverse their position, if the evidence is there.
Post it here.
Rabbit will have to go back and re-post a lot of things which have already been said on the thread, but we have work to do, ..................weary Rabbit, wants no more of this horrible thread, but we must press on, brothers and sisters.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 26, 2005 at 8:25 AM To the group:
This is a horrible thread and this has been painful to read through.
If Natalie and Ramjet like DU so much, I hope some DU finds its way into their hot little hands.
In These Times—shame on you. This discussion got out of hand because you allowed trolls to run amok. Rabbit and Eadora and others have cited the truth and Ramjet and Natalie have cited lies produced in order to provide a veil of secrecy over the issue of DU.
Depleted Uranium is a highly dangerous and criminally misunderstood element of modern warfare. The track record of nations who willingly and openly acknowledge creating hazards is very poor, to say the least.
What I see here is an attempt by people to illustrate just how dangerous DU really is. People are not getting sick and dying by accident. The overwhelming number of articles cited here by Rabbit and others is staggering. And yet all Ramjet and Natalie offer are pithy arguments that try to knock down rock solid arguments.
I posted here a while back, thinking this topic was closed. The desperation of Ramjet and Natalie to counter the efforts of people to expose the danger of DU—and the above resignation of Mr. Lindorff—indicate that In These Times has no one moderating these comment pages.
A campaign of willful misrepresentation has been allowed to continue here, and it is a shameful, disgraceful and ultimately un-American example of cowardice and fear-mongering that is being perpetrated by traitors and fools like Ramjet and Natalie. In These Times has ceased to be an advocate for anything other than it’s own meager existence.
Print THAT in your magazine.
Pale Rider
Posted by Pale Rider on Oct 26, 2005 at 4:48 PM The following is an email that ITT Associate Editor Brian Cook sent to Dave Lindorff that explains why ITT apologized for his unverifiable assertion that 3000 tons of DU have been used in Iraq. Dave Lindorff has still not provided any verifiable proof that DU has been expanded into bunker-busting bombs, which is the point at issue here:
The question, though, is what can actually be verified. No one here doubts that the Pentagon lies, continuously, through their gnarled teeth and soulless fucking eyes. But the question here is whether they’ve lied in this particular instance and the burden of proof lies on you (the reporter) and us (the magazine) to demonstrate that they have. You still have not provided any proof, outside of a single source, who, without citing anything in particular, says it was “probably” 2000 tons. We don’t print “probabilities” as verifiable fact and if we do, we apologize for giving that impression, with or without the writer’s consent.
Furthermore, your attacks on Cohen-Joppa are getting tiresome. If you’d actually read his essay that I sent you, you’d know that he doesn’t believe whatever the Pentagon tells him and explicitly states that we should be skeptical of what they do tell us. (This was edited out of his printed letter for spatial reasons….perhaps we should have kept it in, but that’s a different argument.) But he also makes the perfectly reasonable point that barring any other verifiable facts that can rebut their claims, we can only use their figures to infer how much DU has actually been used. Unlike you, I’m not willing to take Rokke’s word uncritically, unless he provides specific information backing up his claims. Neither his rank, his promotion, nor his appointment letter to head the DU program afford him any SPECIFIC knowledge about how much DU has been used in Iraq from March 2003 to the present.
The fact is, we don’t know how much DU has been used in Iraq. The Pentagon won’t tell us, and we can certainly hammer them for this. It could be as high as 3000, or it could be much higher or much lower. We don’t fucking know. But your original article did not allow for any of this uncertainty. It stated, as fact, that “more than 3000 tons [of DU have been] used in Iraq.” That this was stated as an established fact was an error, on your part, and on ours, and that is why we apologized for it.
Posted by Brian Cook on Oct 26, 2005 at 9:16 PM Friends
Short on time! But I have to take a swing at these AZZ holes.
Ramjet SAYS and Quote:
“Unfortunately, the real world has no DU M-16 bullets ..they would be quite useless as any infantryman could tell them .. they have little stopping power, just aren’t big enough to even stop terrorists let alone a tank!”Another LIE Col. Helbig
http://web.nmsu.edu/~dboje/Tamara/
Tamara: Journal of Critical Postmodern Organization Science.
David M. Boje, Ph.D.
What do they have to say about M-16 DU Ammo!
A 1984 Uranium Traffic special report, “Uranium Bullets,” had this to say about the deadliness of the DU bullets and the new flechette cartridge:NOTE: MENTION OF M-16 DU CARTRIDGE
“DU bullets are soft enough that when they hit human flesh they spread out, thus entering at a tiny point but leaving a big hole on the other side. The military refers to this effect as an “explosive type wound.” In order to enhance the damage done bullets have been made out of 2 cm. long needle-like darts or arrows, complete with fins, called flechettes. The flechettes curl over into a hook shape on impact, thus maximizing the explosive effects, and may have a split tip to further increase wounding power. They may be made out of steel, DU, or other metals. (Dr. M. Lunsden, “Anti-personnel Weapons,” 1978, p. 299.) Flechettes are used in rockets and rifle and shotgun shells; flechette cartridges have been made for the American M-14 7.62mm rifle and the M-16 5.56mm rifle. This type of ammunition has also been made for pistols by a French manufacturer. (E. C. Ezell, “Small Arms of the World,” 1977, p. 671.) [34] “
For anybody interested in some of the published truth DU
This article is a MUST READ!
http://web.nmsu.edu/~dboje/Tamara/These jerks forget that the Net undercuts them don’t they.
The foot of truth comes down on the cockroach again.Better try and shut down the Internet Helbig.
Tell your boss!
Posted by Eadora on Oct 26, 2005 at 9:35 PM Brian
Rabbit reads your words, and they are reasonable and the situation is understood.
Rokke is not the only source of information about the amounts of DU, the Pentagon’s own figures, have been around beofre, Rabbit will search them out, hopefully. Recalls something of a Navy Admiral who had to report on it, or something. It will be forthcoming.
In the meantime, since you are aware of the nature of the beast, how about someone looks at this thread, there is an enormous amount of information, some of which is bound to lead to the truth on the best known figures.
ITT, it is understood that the Beastmen can be threatening and agressive, we all are taking risks standing up to them, truth is important to be verified, and the exact deatil of how much DU is important. None of the details the Shills or their masters are pressing change the facts about the harfulness of the stuff as it is stated in this thread.
Nothing changes the increasing ilness of exposed veterans, and nothing can hide the background radiation levels in Iraq today.
These are established facts, and Pentagon lies, change nothing, except to make them even more culpable.
WAR CRIMES
B
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 27, 2005 at 12:20 AM Yoh Mon Ami’s
Brian your off side. Here’s some dope on DU Bunker Busters.
What’s your take on the M-16 DU ammo info!
Take your time & do the homework!
I tbelieve D.L. has.
US ADMITS THE USE OF DU IN BUNKERBUSTERS
http://www.shunpiking.com/DODU/MA0002-WA-deple.htmTHEY CONTRADICT THEMSELVES
DoD Claims ‘Depleted’ Uranium (DU) Not Used in ‘Bunker Busters’
How then to explain Congressional testimony, patent specifications and DOD cruise missile descriptions?
http://www.traprockpeace.org/bunker_busters_kilpatrick.html
HOW BUNKER BUSTERS WORK!
http://science.howstuffworks.com/bunker-buster3.htm
You guessed it Depleted Uranium!
ROYALK SOCIETY URGES CLEANUP OF
DU WHERE BUNKER BUSTERS WERE USED.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,938336,00.html#article_cont tinue
Tell me they don’t know what they are talking about!
DOCUMENTED ESTIMATES for Balkins & Gulf War DU use
http://www.cursor.org/stories/uranium.htm
DEPLETED URANIUM CONCERNS
http://list.web.net/archives/greenspirationto-l/2003-March/000392.html
Quote: Dr Chris Busby
“4. Some of the bunker buster bombs contain 7 tons of DU”
DEPLETED URANIUM ARCHIVE
http://archive.democrats.com/preview.cfm?term=Depleted+UraniumWas Pvt. Neusche’s Death Caused By Depleted Uranium From ‘Bunker-Busters’?
“A 2-ton DU warhead, suspected in the GBU-28 & 37 Bunker Buster bombs, would deliver 50-100 times more DU oxide contamination per target than the antitank shells fired in the Balkans War.”
US STOCKPILING URANIUM RICH BOMBS
http://news.phaseiii.org/modules.php?name=News&file=print&sid=25AND THE STAR OF THE SHOW IS
GBU-28 BLU-113 PENETRATOR
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/gbu-28.htm
A must read:
US COL. ADMITS TO 500 TONS! NOT THE 200 YOU ADMIT TO!US COLONOL ADMITS GBU-28 IS 5000 lbs OF DEPLETED URANIUM BOMB!
http://www.afn.org/~iguana/archives/2003_05/20030505.htmlSo one of these suckers weight over 2 tons and he wants us to believe a 500 tone total!
Maybe of only
Posted by Eadora on Oct 27, 2005 at 1:25 AM OK Cool down.
But, In an end analysis 3000 tons is more believable than 200
If you are not told the truth you have to estimate it given the best data & info available.
One Bunk.Bust. can weight 2 to 7 tons.
Not to mention innumerable other DU ordinance.Did you or did you not see “Shock & Awe”!
How many Iraqi tanks destroyed?
Nobody counts! I wonder WHY!To Brian! A I will offer an apology!
I’m runnin hot on this one, and I have other irons in other fires.To fast off the take – perhaps
But I do think D.L is closer to the truth.
Perhaps 2000 or 3000 could be used as a highly knowledgeable estimate rather than a cold hard FACT.BUT 200 Tons is a RIDICULOUS lie.
Exposed by it ludicrously low number.
Posted by Eadora on Oct 27, 2005 at 2:01 AM Yoh! Col. Helbig
Why don’t you “Ramjet” some of those M-16 DU flechettes you told us don’t exist!
Like where the sun don’t shine, lowlife!
Posted by Eadora on Oct 27, 2005 at 2:06 AM [url=“http://tinyurl.com/bazy9”]Depleted Uranium: Questions and Answers on Its Use in War
by H. Patricia Hynes and Sardor Ibragimov
[/url]4. What happens when DU weapons strike a target?
US forces’ use of depleted uranium weapons is ‘illegal’
By Neil Mackay, Investigations Editor
<i>U.S. test data show that approximately 20% of a DU weapon penetrator becomes aerosolized particles upon impact with an armored vehicle
(9). A 120 mm DU penetrator, when fired from an Abrams tank, created 2 to 7 pounds of uranium oxide dust upon impact, according to U.S. Army tests. From 50-96% of the dust are respirable particles, the majority of which, if inhaled, can remain in the lungs for years (10). Some fraction of the aerosolized DU particles may be dispersed and spread by wind. A significant amount, however, contaminates soil within a few hundred yards of the target —-sep 2003<i>According to a August 2002 report by the UN subcommission, laws which are breached by the use of DU shells include: the Universal Declaration of Human Rights; the Charter of the United Nations; the Genocide Convention; the Convention Against Torture; the four Geneva Conventions of 1949; the Conventional Weapons Convention of 1980; and the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907, which expressly forbid employing ‘poison or poisoned weapons’ and ‘arms, projectiles or materials calculated to cause unnecessary suffering’. All of these laws are designed to spare civilians from unwarranted suffering in armed conflicts.
DU has been blamed for the effects of Gulf war syndrome—typified by chronic muscle and joint pain, fatigue and memory loss—among 200,000 US soldiers after the 1991 conflict.
It is also cited as the most likely cause of the ‘increased number of birth deformities and cancer in Iraq’ following the first Gulf war.
‘Cancer appears to have increased between seven and 10 times and deformities between four and six times,’ according to the UN subcommission.
The Pentagon has admitted that 320 metric tons of DU were left on the battlefield after the first Gulf war, although Russian military experts say 1000 metric tons is a more accurate figure.
In 1991, the Allies fired 944,000 DU rounds or some 2700 tons of DU tipped bombs. A UK Atomic Energy Authority report said that some 500,000 people would die before the end of this century, due to radioactive debris left in the desert.
>
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 27, 2005 at 2:17 AM A little more data towards a more educated guess!
REMAINS OF TOXIC BULLETS LITTER IRAQ
The Monitor finds high levels of radiation left by US armor-piercing shells
By Scott Peterson, Christian Science Monitor, May 15, 2003“The Monitor visited four sites in the city - including two randomly chosen destroyed Iraqi armored vehicles, a clutch of burned American ammunition trucks, and the downtown planning ministry - and found significant levels of radioactive contamination from the US battle for Baghdad.
In the first partial Pentagon disclosure of the amount of DU used in Iraq, a US Central Command spokesman told the Monitor that A-10 Warthog aircraft - the same planes that shot at the Iraqi planning ministry - fired 300,000 bullets. The normal combat mix for these 30-mm rounds is five DU bullets to 1 - a mix that would have left about 75 tons of DU in Iraq. “
<<<Note: that is from the single A-10 Warthog ordinance!
Add in Anti Tank, Big Bugger Bunker Busters etc. etc.
ARE YOU GOING TO COME UP WITH 200!!!!>>>>
Bactk to the quote:
“The Monitor saw only one site where US troops had put up handwritten warnings in Arabic for Iraqis to stay away. There, a 3-foot-long DU dart from a 120 mm tank shell, was found producing radiation at more than 1,300 times background levels. It made the instrument’s staccato bursts turn into a steady whine….
While the Pentagon says there’s no risk to Baghdad residents, US soldiers are taking their own precautions in Iraq, and in some cases have handed out warning leaflets and put up signs. “After we shoot something with DU, we’re not supposed to go around it, due to the fact that it could cause cancer,” says a sergeant in Baghdad from New York, assigned to a Bradley, who asked not to be further identified. “We don’t know the effects of what it could do,” says the sergeant. “If one of our vehicles burnt with a DU round inside, or an ammo truck, we wouldn’t go near it, even if it had important documents inside. We play it safe.” Six American vehicles struck with DU “friendly fire” in 1991 were deemed to be too contaminated to take home, and were buried in Saudi Arabia. Of 16 more brought back to a purpose-built facility in South Carolina, six had to be buried in a low-level radioactive waste dump. “
(IF DU IS NO PROBLEM WHY THE NEED FOR THIS SORT OF PERCAUTION?)
And agian
“Television footage of the war last month showed Iraqi armored vehicles burning as US columns drove by, a common sign of a strike by DU, which burns through armor on impact, and often ignites the ammunition carried by the targeted vehicle. “We were buttoned up when we drove by that - all our hatches were closed,” the US sergeant says. “If we saw anything on fire, we wouldn’t stop anywhere near it. We would just keep on driving.”....There is a warning now at the Doura intersection on the southern outskirts of Baghdad. In the days before the capital fell, four US supply trucks clustered near an array of highway off-ramps caught fire, cooking off a number of DU tank rounds. American troops wearing facemasks for protection arrived a few days later and bulldozed the topsoil around the site to limit the contamination.The troops taped handwritten warning signs in Arabic to the burned vehicles, which read: “Danger - Get away from this area.” These were the only warnings seen by this reporter among dozens of destroyed Iraqi armored vehicles littering the city. “All of them were wearing masks,” says Abbas Mohsin, a teenage cousin of a drink seller 50 yards away, said referring to the US military cleanup crew….”
DU NO PROBLEM NO!
Posted by Eadora on Oct 27, 2005 at 2:41 AM The problem is that several of those who are best known in activists circles, such people as Doug Rokke and Leuren Moret, spread false information about depleted uranium. For example, Doug Rokke, in various Internet interviews, has claimed that 30 co-workers died with the implication being that they died of depleted uranium. The military investigated that claim and found that only one had died and he had not worked with depleted uranium. There is no doubt that Rokke made the claim as it is on many internet interviews. But Rokke refuses to provide any supporting evidence. He could perhaps refute the military claim that none of his co-workers died but when asked directly about this, Rokke does not answer.
Now about Leuren Moret. She has often made the claim on the Internet that 67 percent of the children of a National Guard Unit from Mississippi had birth defects with the claim being that this was from depleted uranium in the first Gulf War. However, the Centers for Disease Control did a thorough scientific investigation of that National Guard unit back in about 1996 and found that the rate of birth defects was not above normal. Leuren Moret is still making that claim up to the present time even though she has been told directly that her claim has been refuted. When asked about this in email, she refuses to reply.
Leuren Moret claims to be a scientist but she has no background in the field of nuclear science and it is questionable that she is a scientist in any other field.
Posted by radchemist on Oct 27, 2005 at 2:43 AM The above got a bit mixed up. The following is separate from the quoted piece which is from the first reference.
US forces’ use of depleted uranium weapons is ‘illegal’
By Neil Mackay, Investigations EditorWARNING
The following contains extremely disturbing pictures of actual birth deformities caused by DU.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 27, 2005 at 2:45 AM Thank You Rabbit!
How good are these guys at MATH do you suppose, Rab. ??
ADD IT UP FOOLS!
200 !!! you have to be stupid to suppose or even suggest that!
Its like trying to hide an elephant dung under a mouse turd!
Really a stupid thing to try and do!Typical retard, military, dysfunctional, disinformation.
They should have given us a 1500 or 2000 ton estimate.
That might be cause for some confusion.
Posted by Eadora on Oct 27, 2005 at 2:58 AM Rabbit apologises for posting the above link, i…..................t is the most disturbing set of pictures Rabbit has seen…..................... for a long time…...............maybe ever.
The most terribly distressing thing and this must be said, and you all of you have to think about the following Rabbit words.
These are only what came of the first Gulf War, to my understanding, shocking as these are, they are only the tip of the iceberg. This is the work of Ramjet and his MASTERS OF WAR.
He is doing it in the name of America and your Freedoms.
But while the chemical toxicity of DU is reasonably well established, Mothersill points out that the radiological effects of DU are less clear. To gauge the risk from low-dose radiation, researchers extrapolate from tests using higher doses. But the relationship between dose and effect is not linear: at low doses radiation kills relatively fewer cells. And though that sounds like good news, it could mean that low radiation is having subtle effects that go unnoticed because cells are not dying, says Mothersill.
Miller has found one way this may happen. She has discovered the first direct evidence that radiation from DU damages chromosomes within cultured cells. The chromosomes break, and the fragments reform in a way that results in abnormal joins (Military Medicine, vol 167, p 120). Both the breaks and the joins are commonly found in tumour cells.
More crucially, she has recently found that DU radiation increases gene activity in cultured cells at doses of DU not known to cause chemical toxicity (Molecular and Cellular Biochemistry, in press). The possible consequences are made all the more uncertain because no one knows if genes switched on by DU radiation enhance the damage caused by genes switched on by DU’s toxic effects, or vice versa. “I think that we assumed that we knew everything that we needed to know about uranium,” says Miller. “This is something we have to consider now when we think about risk estimates.”
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 27, 2005 at 3:00 AM Who the hell kind of a new SUPER SHILL do we have here? Rad Chemist, you are coming in here with a highly loaded title like that and promptly launch into a personal attack on a single person after the Enormous amount of evidence already postyed on this thread, and most of it has NOTHING to do with ROKKE you SHILL.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 27, 2005 at 3:08 AM radchemist IS SO OBVIOUSLY NEXT IN LINE FOR THE SHILL ROLL.
You are a stinking character assasin, and Rabbit nor others here have need of Moret’s work or Rokke’s to kick you back into your pit. If you are a false Shill as expected you will soon give your self away by failing to deal in facts and preferring instead to smoke and mirror your way forward, attack the man, ignore the ball. We’re so used to toads like you we could just play without you you know.
Come on Rad Chemist tell us how the other FACTS and opinions we have expressed stack up against a “REAL” scientist, as you are sure to claim any moment.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 27, 2005 at 3:14 AM YOH! radchemist
Parachutist Extraordinaire!
Review the thread. You are on old news Bros.
Do your homework, review the thread, or go back to kindergarten.The subject of Rokke & Leuren are old news on this thread.
It has been dealt with thoroughly!
If you have something to add, add it.
What you are chucking in now, is OLD NEWS.We are on LIES regarding DU ordinance and it’s use.
Do not try to change the subject to old hat character assassinations.
It will not work with us!
Deal from the top of the deck or take a walk.Take the time to review the thread & its LINKS.
Do not presume to take us to school!
Posted by Eadora on Oct 27, 2005 at 3:16 AM sig heil Ramjet
reich master sgt COL uranium userCongress made of stooges
president is a madman
And NEO~CON~artists play with my world like it’s their little toy
NAzIS NEO CON
nasty bussines
Posted by skullker on Oct 27, 2005 at 3:29 AM Make sure you know what we are saying, start building strawmen, and we’ll all gang up on you, finding you so offensive we’ll just have to complain to have you pulled from the site, just like Roger did to Rabbit once
You had best check out all our references and see just how much you will have to deal with once you step outside of your script which just says, dump on Rokke and Moret.
Rabbit had never even heard of either of these people before this thread, having lived for in excess of forty years and been around a bit, he needed nobody to tell him the facts as they are know about DU. Rabbit knows more than he needs to about the Gulf war, and has known about the dangers of using DU since 1990, when he first heard about it being used as weapons. Stunned into disbelief, when first told it was being used as such, and not merely a nightmare weapon from hell. Just when it felt the world was getting ready for a bit of peace on the macro scale, they start using this stuff, no thought Rabbit, surely not after all this time, to go back to such ideas. But yes, it has been. Rabbit has watched in wide eyed horror as the Masters of war have used it regardless, and as if that is not enough, they are asserting a HUGE propaganda effort to hide the fact of its use, to attempt to avoid prosecution for it’s use as detailed in earlier Rabbit post, and to alter and hide scientific reports and generally muddy the waters even if they cannot actually make a case for it.
Look at those pictures above. ANY dirty SHILL who wants to come around here, you are arguing in favour of the stuff which caused those things, and nothing you can say will alter the fact that WE will know that. Imagine if you can the loathing we each feel in our hearts for you, let the idea enter your world, understand that all this energy is coming back at you from us and it will cost your Karma Baby it will cost it bad.
Because nothing you can say, will change the fact that we are arguing for a good and noble cause, and YOU are standing up for an ignominious WAR CRIME and something which will, eventually enter the worlds consciousness as the most repulsive act of reptillian cowardice and evil perpetrated in our otherwise less than inspiring history.
Like Judas of old
You lie and deceive
A world war can be won
You want me to believe
But I see through your eyes
And I see through your brain
Like I see through the water
That runs down my drain
Bob Dylan
MASTERS of WAR
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 27, 2005 at 3:34 AM HIGH CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY
Nurember 2007 U.S.A.
Ecessive Use Of Force
Use Of Torture Agaisnt prisoners
Use of Uranium Ammo 2500 + Tons +
Congress implicated Was mute and blind to the Administration
presidency is looked at, and reiculed by the world as jokes
November is time to vote get rid of the bumsimpeachment eminent
The People are the power not the President
Impeach call your congressman .GET INVOLVED
Posted by skullker on Oct 27, 2005 at 3:41 AM When NUREMGURG USA comes
all new congressmen hopefully will be in Place with a clear mandate.“A HARD RAIN IS GONA FALL” B.Dylan
BUSH CHENEY AND the cabel will be fried
The reidicule the rest of the world feels for USA right now is astounding
WAKEUP
Posted by skullker on Oct 27, 2005 at 3:51 AM I suspect this thread will go on untill The war crimes are answered for
and all of its perponents are rounded upA unique record of who backs the Nazification of USA
who controls the isp controls ?
Posted by skullker on Oct 27, 2005 at 4:05 AM Did Rabbit not warn you Shills, you were always biting off more than you could swallow. All you have done is awaken an issue which was, due to public apathy and media complicity not one.
More and more are rallying here to the cause you created by just having to go the next step, Try and tell people DU is sexy. Rabbit said when it was just Roger and he, get lost, wack job, keep it up and you’ll get more attention than you bargained for. How many backers have you had who have not been assigned to you SHILL?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 27, 2005 at 4:22 AM “US tanks fired 5000 rounds, US aircraft many tens of thousands of rounds, and UK tanks a small number of DU rounds. The tank ammunition alone will amount to greater then 50,000 lbs. of DU. [...] If the tank inventory of the DU was inhaled, the latest International Committee of Radiological Protection risk factor calculates 500,000 potential deaths. The DU will spread around the battlefield and target vehicles in various sizes and quantities. [....] It would be unwise for people to stay close to large quantities of DU for long periods and this would obviously be of concern to the local population if they collect this heavy metal and keep it.”
Bartholomew’s covering letter said that the contamination of Kuwait was “....emotive and thus must be dealt with in a sensitive manner.”
The US military were well aware of the health risks of DU, long before the Gulf war, as the following document excerpts make clear:
“[...] Personnel in or near (less than approximately 50 metres) an armoured vehicle at the time these vehicles were struck by Depleted Uranium munitions could receive significant internal DU exposures (i.e. those in excess of allowable standards).”
- Excerpt from a US Army Ballistic Research Laboratory (BRL) report 1989. The BRL study determined that an average of 79% of airborne DU particles measured downwind of an impacted vehicle were of respirable size (less then 10 microns in diameter), meaning that if inhaled they could become permanently trapped in the lungs. (Information provided by Colonel Eric Daxon, Radiation Protection Staff Officer of the US Army Medical Command, in a 1996 letter to researcher Dan Fahey).
“Aerosol DU (Depleted Uranium) exposures to soldiers on the battlefield could be significant with potential radiological and toxicological effects. [...] Under combat conditions, the most exposed individuals are probably ground troops that re-enter a battlefield following the exchange of armour-piercing munitions. [...] We are simply highlighting the potential for levels of DU exposure to military personnel during combat that would be unacceptable during peacetime operations. [...DU is..]... a low level alpha radiation emitter which is linked to cancer when exposures are internal, [and] chemical toxicity causing kidney damage. [...] Short term effects of high doses can result in death, while long term effects of low doses have been linked to cancer. [...] Our conclusion regarding the health and environmental acceptability of DU penetrators assume both controlled use and the presence of excellent health physics management practices. Combat conditions will lead to the uncontrolled release of DU. [...] The conditions of the battlefield, and the long term health risks to natives and combat veterans may become issues in the acceptability of the continued use of DU kinetic penetrators for military applications.
This report (Volume 2) summarises data [...] in a way that allows a contrasting of the differences in health risk between Depleted Uranium (DU) and Tungsten (W) as kinetic energy penetrators. [...] Whilst much more is known about the health effects of uranium than of tungsten alloys, the comparable information on chemical toxicity indicates that insoluable DU is approximately 25 times more toxic than insoluable tungsten, and soluable DU is 20 times more toxic than soluable tungsten when exposure is at the limits allowed by the regulations. [...] Radiation effects are unique to DU. Therefore, this represents a risk which does not apply to tungsten.”
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 27, 2005 at 4:34 AM Again the above is only referring to <i>particles<> and we have established that The Ceramic Oxids Vapours are of far greater concern.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 27, 2005 at 4:40 AM From a list where actual experts, Certified Health Physicists with doctorates in Physics, not in Education of high school kids like Rokke ..one of them comments in response to an anti-DU gadfly who pretends to sound scientfic
“Epidemiological studies require precise application of scientific methods,
not random imaginary association of random observations. We are now being
plagued by unscientific data misuse where the purpose is to “prove” some
preconceived association following the fallacious method called “Affirming
the Consequence”. Many books have been published in recent years by
activists that misuse data to promote their favorite imaginary radiation
effect. Most scientists do not want to assist in the advancement of
misinformation. Why encourage the misuse of data?The fact the depleted uranium is only slightly radioactive and relatively
non-toxic does not seem to have any impact on Mr. S or the other
anti-DU crowd. The over 50 years of scientific studies of the toxicity of
uranium and the recent studies by the Department of Defense are never
referenced by the anti-DU fanatics. I wish that they would put their energy
into causes that would be societally beneficial such as campaigning against
cigarette smoking (100,000 deaths per year) or the development of clean
nuclear power to provide energy independence for out nation (we already
have all the nuclear fuel we need).”PS .. when are Rabbit, Skulker, Eadora, etc. going to learn that zero raised to the infinite power is still zero .. so too with their infinite innane postings in which they blather on like out on the grade school playground—it is the substance of the post that matters, not the number of times that it is repeated on this forum .. someday, if I have the time, I may summarize the number of replies by each of this cast of characters. Those of you who are in this to learn I am sure are equally not amused by the volume of the shouting, but rather by the value of the comments.
Posted by Ramjet on Oct 27, 2005 at 7:57 AM Too late Ramjet, your cause was lost a long time ago, witness this thread, anybody who reads anything
this Ramjet con artist spouts is adviced to reteurn to the start of the trhead and read it to see evrything these scumbag is and has said. EVRYTHING which has been presnted in refutation to this psychopath, see why everybody calls him a cockroach without hesitation, everybody see’s the dirty COLONEL HELBIG lying SHILLYou can’t change the truth and it is all here in black and white. Nothing nothing does the filthgy Shill answer, lies, lies and more lies it spouts. Coward hides under a rock, after every slap-down, and evrytime it sees an opening up it slithers, LIES LIES and more LIES.
All it’s lies are here, it has nothing new to say, it convinced nobody, go and look at the pictures of deforemed babies who are due to your LIES dirty SHILL for the Masters of War. Look at those pictures, click the link if your government issued computer is even able to access the site, we know lots of servers don’t allow free access to “unpleasant truths”. Look at those pictures, they are your doing, the collective community of this site, minus the trolls even who dare not show even their faces around this one, call you resposible with your beloved death bringer. How about answering the ONE question Eadora has asked you since the first few posts, and which you have never responded, Lying SHILL.
You probably already have such pictures haven’t you, you look at them everynight when you do that thing you do alone, with no witnesses. All dragons have their horrible secrets and yours must by association be truly atrocious.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 27, 2005 at 8:56 AM The following is Ramjet’s own words and it explains exactly why he has so far established a sum total of zero, in a couple of months of desperate trying.
it is the substance of the post that matters, not the number of times that it is repeated on this forum.
That is the only true thing Ramjet has said for a while.
Go back and see the substance which has been put up by everyone except this professional liar.
Substance does not equal a few biased sources and official propaganda. Every important fact Roger has claimed has been shown to be of no consequence to the discussion or false.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 27, 2005 at 9:03 AM <i>The fact the depleted uranium is only slightly radioactive and relatively non-toxic does not seem to have any impact on Mr. S or the other anti-DU crowd. The over 50 years of scientific studies of the toxicity of uranium and the recent studies by the Department of Defense are never
referenced by the anti-DU fanatics. I wish that they would put their energy into causes that would be societally beneficial such as campaigning against cigarette smoking (100,000 deaths per year) or the development of clean nuclear power to provide energy independence for out nation (we already have all the nuclear fuel we need).”Yet another bald faced lie. It is seriously disturbing that someone would try to lie—in the face of overwhelming empirical evidence—in order to contain the problem that has now spun so completely out of control.
http://www.ieer.org/sdafiles/13-2.pdf
THURSDAY APRIL 13, 2000, THE GUARDIAN
The use of depleted uranium weapons is once more causing concern. The people of Kosovo have been alarmed to discover that the conflict there has left radioactive contamination, just as it did in Kuwait nine years ago.
Why do the US and the UK continue to use a waste product of the nuclear industry in weapons? Some commentators allege that it is a conspiracy between the military and the nuclear industry to dispose of dangerous waste in hostile countries. The real reasons are more complex.
Metallic uranium occurs naturally in tiny quantities. In its native state it is a mixture of highly radioactive uranium-235 and less active U-238. U-235 is used in reactors and atomic weapons; once it is extracted, the remainder is depleted uranium. It is a poisonous heavy metal like lead or mercury but only slightly radioactive. You could hold a piece of DU for days without serious exposure to radiation, but swallowing or inhaling it is more dangerous. Experts are still arguing about how long uranium stays in the body; the longer it remains, the greater the chance that the radioactivity will cause cancer.
To understand why DU makes a good anti-tank weapon you have to enter the Alice-In-Wonderland world of high energy collisions. When metal meets metal at five times the speed of sound strange things happen. Hard ened steel shatters like glass. Metal flows like putty, or simply vaporises. A faster shell does not necessarily go through more armour, but, like a pebble thrown into the water, it makes a bigger splash.
Posted by Pale Rider on Oct 27, 2005 at 12:17 PM Published on Friday, March 24, 2000 in the Philadelphia Inquirer
‘Plowshares Vs Depleted Uranium’ Activists Face Harsh Jail Sentences
by David O’Reilly
TOWSON, Md. - The judge in the tumultuous trial of four Roman Catholic peace activists charged with vandalizing two A-10 Warthog bombers at a nearby military base stunned the courtroom yesterday by imposing long prison sentences.The four, who turned their backs on the judge on Wednesday and refused to cooperate with their own defense, chose not to enter the courtroom yesterday after instructing their lawyers to make no closing arguments or sentencing pleas for them. The lawyers, who included Ramsey Clark, a former U.S. attorney general, followed their instructions.
Judge James T. Smith of Baltimore County Circuit Court then sentenced Elizabeth Walz, 33, of Philadelphia, to 15 more months in the county detention center, where she has resided since her arrest Dec. 19.
Minutes before the sentencing, the state prosecutor had told the judge that state sentencing guidelines for the charges against Walz, who has no record, call for probation or one month in jail.
Smith also sentenced Philip Berrigan, 77, of Baltimore, to 30 months in state prison and Susan Crane, 56, also of Baltimore, and the Rev. Steven Kelly, 50, of New York, to 27 months, less the three months already served in jail awaiting trial.
All had been charged with malicious destruction of property and conspiracy for cutting a fence at the Air National Guard Base in Essex, Md., on Dec. 19, and afterward pouring blood, hanging a rosary and a banner, and hammering on two A-10 Warthog bombers.
Crane had also faced an assault charge for allegedly swinging a hammer over head when air-base security guards came to arrest her. The jury was hung on that charge, and it was dropped.
State’s Attorney Mickey Norman, who prosecuted the case, had recommended sentences ranging from three months to one year.
“They were prepared for the worst,” Berrigan’s wife, Elizabeth McCallister, told a crowd of about 40 supporters outside the courthouse afterward, “and they got it.”
Smith, who angrily cleared his courtroom Wednesday when the supporters burst into a spontaneous hymn of protest against his rulings, yesterday justified his long sentences: The $88,622 in estimated damage to the airplanes “takes it out of the normal range of property damage cases.”
He also ordered each of the four - who call themselves “Plowshares vs. Depleted Uranium” and say they live residentially in near poverty - to reimburse the government for the full amount of the damage.
The sentences and reparation amounts can be appealed, but lead attorney John Katz of Silver Spring, Md., said he did not know how they would proceed. The defendants were not available yesterday for comment.
After the verdict and prior to sentencing, Walz sent a note to the judge detailing what she said were many unpleasant aspects of Baltimore County Prison and noting that several other women’s prisons were more accommodating of inmates. For that reason, she said, she asked that she be permitted to stay at the Baltimore County facility “where I might be of some comfort to the women suffering there.”
The judge allowed her request.
The four claim that anti-tank bullets of depleted uranium, which were fired extensively by Warthogs in the 1991 Persian Gulf war and last year in Kosovo, pollute the ground and air with radioactive particulates that can cause birth defects and other serious ailments to civilians and military personnel.
Posted by Pale Rider on Oct 27, 2005 at 12:19 PM -article continues-
The U.S. Department of Defense maintains that depleted uranium is only slightly radioactive and poses no significant health hazard.
When trial began on Monday, Smith said he would not allow expert testimony on the health hazards of depleted uranium ordnance, and he refused to allow the defendants to argue that their symbolic acts of vandalism - what they call “conversion” - were morally justified because of the hazards of depleted uranium.
Nevertheless, Berrigan and Walz, who represented themselves, and the three defense lawyers tried repeatedly to inject references to depleted uranium, which provoked immediate objections by Norman.
Most of those objections were sustained.
The mounting tension in the courtroom came to a head Wednesday when Smith refused to allow the defense to present witnesses to testify about the hazards of the use of depleted uranium.
Crane then read a statement asserting: “We cannot put on a defense about the dangers of depleted uranium.. . .” The judge ordered her to stop, but she continued reading: “We will not participate in what amounts to a legal gag order.”
Berrigan, Walz, Crane and Father Kelly then turned their backs on the judge. Father Kelly began reading a passage about justice from the Book of Jeremiah.
Then, someone in the audience began singing an old Catholic Worker hymn: “Courage, Sister; Courage, Brother. You do not walk alone. We will walk with you, and sing your spirit home.”
Smith gaveled repeatedly for silence, but when that did not succeed, shouted: “If you cannot control yourselves about how deeply you feel about the system, you must leave this courtroom.”
When the singing continued, the judge sent the jury out temporarily and ordered deputies to clear the room, allowing only the press.
The audience was allowed back in today, but with strict instructions to remain silent at the verdicts and sentencing, which it did.
In his closing remarks yesterday, Norman told the jurors that the defendants had “used you” and later suggested they had been motivated by a desire for publicity, “their day in the sun.”
“It’s a no-brainer,” he continued. “They came to preach.. . .
“If you let your feelings one way or the other interfere with your duty, that makes you as bad as them.”
Some members of the audience groaned.
After the verdict, Berrigan’s wife, McCallister, complained that Norman had engaged in “character rape.”
Wendy Leitner-Sieber, who with her husband shares a Catholic Worker house in Germantown with Walz, said she was saddened but not surprised by the guilty verdicts.
“Our friends acted as they felt morally justified, as witnesses to the gospel of love,” she said. “The verdict stands for itself.”
Posted by Pale Rider on Oct 27, 2005 at 12:19 PM However, we now know depleted uranium is so dangerous that the states—not the Federal government—are taking steps to protect people:
Depleted Uranium: States Take Action to Protect Their Soldiers and Veterans
Tue, 19 Jul 2005 06:17:50 -0700
By Kevin Zeese
Louisiana passes law giving returning veterans the right to get tested
Louisiana recently passed legislation giving all returning veterans the right to get a best practices health screening test for exposure to depleted uranium. Interviewed here is Bob Smith, one of the activists that helped make this bill possible. He is with the Louisiana Activist Network. He is also I am a member of Veterans for Peace and the Viet Nam Veterans Against the War. Born a Texan and raised in a Navy family with three siblings, moved to Louisiana in 1977 a few years after returning from Viet Nam. He worked with adolescents in a psychiatric hospital where he met his wife, a co-worker, returning to the military and retired eight years ago as a Command Sergeant Major. He became actively involved the day Congress gave the President unconstitutional, power to make war on Iraq and has been active ever since in the peace movement and with the Presbyterian Church.Zeese: What made you pursue legislation regarding depleted uranium in Louisiana?
Smith: As a twenty year veteran I have been concerned about veterans health since I returned from Viet Nam. From first hand experience I knew the treatment of veterans by our country was highly inadequate after their service. Each year after Gulf War I, more and more veterans were being diagnosed with a mysterious illness, Gulf War Syndrome (GWS) without significant research for cause and effect much like what happened with Agent Orange contamination.
I learned about how the government dealt with Agent Orange contamination during the eighties as an outreach counselor at the VA’s Viet Nam Veterans Outreach Center or Vet Center here in New Orleans. We were actively involved in trying to alert the VA to the effects of Agent Orange contamination. For twenty five years a government study done by the Rand Corporation denied any cause and effect between Agent Orange and health problems experienced by veterans and their offspring. Just this week the VA has finally recognized the connection between Agent Orange and diabetes. Remember the last troops returned from Viet Nam over thirty years ago. Worth mentioning is that the same Rand Corporation now denies any cause and effect between depleted uranium contamination and health.
Late last year after a lot of reading I found out about depleted uranium. In January at the Jazz Funeral for Democracy, a peace march in New Orleans organized by the Louisiana Activist Network, I met a young Gulf War I veteran, Dennis Kyne. He talked with me about what he knew first hand as a combat medic about illnesses of our veterans even before they returned home and what he has found out about DU since returning home. I then did more research and studying. In March I met Leuren Moret, a geoscientist, who reaffirmed everything that Dennis Kyne had told me and reaffirmed what I had been reading. I then did more research and studying including conversation with Doug Rokke. Doug was the overall supervisor in charge of the clean-up after Gulf War I and is an expert in depleted uranium. Thirty to forty percent of his team are now dead.
Posted by Pale Rider on Oct 27, 2005 at 12:21 PM I then became concerned about what could be done to bring this issue out into the public conversation. Leuren told me about a young lady in Connecticut, Melissa Sterry, who was doing something about it. Working with Rep Patricia Dillon of Connecticut they were introducing a bill to have all of their state’s veterans tested. The always unselfish Melissa willingly shared a copy of the Connecticut bill with me. Melissa had been a member of a depleted uranium clean-up team after Gulf War I. She herself was very sick and had six of her eight team members die since returning home. All six were less than thirty-five years old.
Taking the Connecticut bill, changing the name to a Louisiana bill, and making a few minor amendments preceded a call to my Louisiana congressperson, Rep. Jalila Jefferson-Bullock. The submission deadline was less than twenty-four hours after our meeting. Rep. Juan LaFonta sponsored and Rep. Jefferson-Bullock co-sponsored the bill. The deadline was made.
Zeese: What does the legislation accomplish?
Smith: The legislation will allow all returning veterans to have the right to get a best practices health screening test for exposure to depleted uranium. The test will use a bioassay procedure involving sensitive methods capable of detecting depleted uranium at low levels and the use of equipment with the capacity to discriminate between different radioisotopes in naturally occurring levels of uranium and the characteristic ratio and marker for depleted uranium.
This test will determine if a soldier has been contaminated. It will prevent mis-diagnosis so soldiers are not given the wrong medications that usually make them sicker. It will allow the contaminated soldier to decide about parenting further offspring who have an increased chance of serious birth illnesses or defects.
The bill also prescribes a reporting mechanism from the Louisiana’s Attorney General to the legislature that requires that awareness sessions and training have been done as required by Army regulations.
Zeese: What tips do you have for activists in other states interested in pursuing this in their state?
Smith: Stay focused. Depleted uranium testing is for discovery of contamination of a very hazardous material made from radioactive nuclear waste. This is something that truly supports the troops. Remind your elected representatives of that often. Read, study, and discuss with the experts and others experienced in this type of legislation. Other advocates should remember that the weapons manufacturers do not want this in the public. They make a lot of money off this death bringing material. Likewise the military does not want to give up these very effective offensive weapons regardless of how it effects our soldiers or civilians, enemy soldiers, or the environment. Although we did not encounter resistance from those two potential adversaries, weapons manufacturers or the military, others might and they should be prepared to bring in experts. Having veterans testify helps. Another veteran, Ward Reilly, from Baton Rouge was instrumental in helping get the bill through committee.
Zeese: What were some of the challenges you faced with this legislation and how did you overcome them?
Smith: The only real obstacle we encountered was educating our representative. We knew we would have to educate her and do it quickly but fortunately she agreed to a minimum one-hour meeting. We were lucky as both representatives cared deeply about our troops and taking care of them after they come home. There were no other obstacles.
Posted by Pale Rider on Oct 27, 2005 at 12:23 PM Zeese: What are your next steps?
Smith: We have been having awareness sessions at coffeehouses and public events to educate the public, either by passing out literature, making educational speeches, posting literature on the internet, or showing documentaries. We are also communicating with advocates in other states by sharing information, resources, networking, and offering tips to help. And if that doesn’t work I may just stand on top of the roof and scream out the truth.
Note: I retired after 20 years in the Army and National Guard as a Command Sergeant Major, serving three tours in Viet Nam as a Special Forces Green Beret and was mobilized for Desert Storm. Education includes a Bachelor of Arts in Sociology and a Bachelor of Science in Mechanical Engineering. Currently employed as an engineer living in New Orleans with Julie my wife and life partner for over twenty-six years and our dog, Maggie. Member of Veterans for Peace, Viet Nam Veterans Against the War, and the Louisiana Activist Network.
——-
Continued attacks on the veracity of Mr. Rokke are not necessary.What? Now everyone is a liar? Ramjet is the biggest liar of all.
Posted by Pale Rider on Oct 27, 2005 at 12:24 PM Pale Rider,
You repeat Doug Rokke’s claim that 30 to 40 percent of “his” cleanup crew are now dead. Ask him for a list of names of those dead. He won’t give it to you. That claim is false as is much of what he claims. Rokke did not have a cleanup crew, by the way. He was a minor player in the cleanup effort. The military says Rokke’s claim is false and they say this after investigating the specifics of his claim. Rokke does not provide evidence to support his version as one might expect if he were telling the truth. If anyone can show me where Rokke has ever effectively countered the charge that he lied on this issue, I would like to see it. I have had email contact with him on this and he always wants to change the subject rather than refute the charge that he lied.
Some of you have claimed birth defects from depleted uranium. The photos are certainly terrible but there is a 3 to 6 percent rate of birth defects without any exposure to depleted uranium. That is the normal background rate of birth defects. Where is the proof that any of those parents ever ingested uranium? There is no proof. What is claimed as evidence does not stand up even to the most casual scrutiny.
Posted by radchemist on Oct 27, 2005 at 4:40 PM A medieval physician made the following statement that is still true and applies to depleted uranium and every other poison:
“Everything is a poison and nothing is a poison. The poison is in the dose.”
—Paracelus, an early medical pioneerWhat is important is not whether uranium is a poison, it certainly is a mild poison. What is important is the dose. We all have uranium in our bodies, every one of us. The important question for health effects is how much there is. There is no evidence that depleted uranium is hurting anyone.
Posted by radchemist on Oct 27, 2005 at 4:58 PM That was quick, radchemist.
Ramjet, whatever.
Show me where Doug Rokke has been disproven by someone other than the military—the only organization that would stand to lose something by NOT discrediting him.
Standard tactic these days. It is you who wants to change the subject and avoid whether the ‘dose’ is being properly measured.
Having been in uniform, and having been in areas where MOPP 4 posture has been required training, I can honestly say that I am extremely pleased that I never came within more than a few miles of the DU currently discarded on the ranges in Korea or in Texas.
As for there being ‘no evidence that depleted uranium is hurting anyone’ well, where’s your proof that old age has ever killed anyone?
You’re just another shill and you’re just another reason why this thread has continued and continued—once badly discredited, all you can do is keep coming back to plug the holes in the dike and hope the floodwaters stop rising.
Posted by Pale Rider on Oct 27, 2005 at 6:23 PM SILENT GENOCIDE
by Robert C. Koehler
March 25, 2004
“After the Americans destroyed our village and killed many of us, we also lost our houses and have nothing to eat. However, we would have endured these miseries and even accepted them, if the Americans had not sentenced us all to death.”This will not be easy to read, especially if you’ve projected evil out of your own heart, into some cave in Afghanistan or a spider hole in Iraq, and reduced the age-old question it inspires to this one: How can we bomb it off the face of the earth?
Before the damage we inflict grows greater, before history’s judgment gets worse, before we contaminate the whole world—even before we vote in the next election—we must stop what we’re doing. We must stop now.
It’s time to listen for a moment not to defense analysts briefing officers, pols or pundits, but to people like Jooma Khan, a grandfather who lives in a village in Laghman Province, in northeastern Afghanistan, who is quoted above. Surely he deserves 30 seconds of our undivided attention.
“When I saw my deformed grandson,” he told an interviewer in March of 2003, “I realized that my hopes of the future have vanished for good. (This is) different from the hopelessness of the Russian barbarism, even though at that time I lost my older son Shafiqullah. This time, however, I know we are part of the invisible genocide brought on us by America, a silent death from which I know we will not escape.”
We’re waging war-plus in Afghanistan and Iraq—in effect, nuclear war, with our widespread use of depleted-uranium-tipped shells and missiles. This is no secret. DU, with its extraordinary penetrating power and explode-on-impact capability, helps assure our military dominance everywhere we go. But people like Jooma Khan and his grandson reap its toxic legacy. So, of course, do our own troops.
Kahn’s words are only a sliver of the damning testimony contained in the documents of the International Criminal Tribunal for Afghanistan, a Japanese citizens’ initiative that recently concluded its two-year inquiry into the first phase of the Bush Administration’s war on terror. But they say everything that we cannot hear.
If we could hear Jooma Khan, and others who are sounding the alarm about DU, such as former Livermore Labs geologist Leuren Moret, who testified at the tribunal, there would not be mere thousands of people in the streets of American cities demanding that we stop the war, but hundreds of thousands, or millions—the sort of numbers that turn out in other parts of the world.
The use of DU weaponry is not the extent of our criminal irresponsibility in Afghanistan and Iraq, which led to the tribunal’s guilty verdict against George Bush on charges of war crimes, but it’s the most chilling.
As Moret testified, depleted uranium turns into a infinitesimally fine dust after it explodes; individual particles are smaller than a virus or bacteria. And, “It is estimated that one millionth of a gram accumulating in a person’s body would be fatal. There are no known methods of treatment.”
And DU dust is everywhere. A minimum of 500 or 600 tons now litter Afghanistan, and several times that amount are spread across Iraq. In terms of global atmospheric pollution, we’ve already released the equivalent of 400,000 Nagasaki bombs, Moret said.
Posted by Pale Rider on Oct 27, 2005 at 6:31 PM -continued-
The numbers are overwhelming, but the potential horrors only get worse. DU dust does more than wreak havoc on the immune systems of those who breathe or touch it; the substance also alters one’s genetic code.
Thus, birth defects are way up in Afghanistan since the invasion: children “born with no eyes, no limbs, tumors protruding from their mouths . . . deformed genitalia,” according to the tribunal report. This ghastly toll on the unborn—on the future—has led investigators to coin the term “silent genocide” to describe the effects of this horrific weapon.
The Pentagon’s response to such charges is denial, denial, denial. And the American media is its moral co-conspirator.
Posted by Pale Rider on Oct 27, 2005 at 6:32 PM Excerpts of a hearing on Depleted Uranium:
http://www.lloyd-gwii.com/admin/ManagedFiles/2/GULF2309 00.doc
14. THE CHAIRMAN: Sorry, say that again?
A. If depleted uranium is being excreted in the urine, together with the natural uranium that we excrete anyway, that will manifest as a perturbation in the ratio of the two isotopes, uranium 235 and 238, so you will have relatively less uranium 235 as compared with 238 if you made a comparison with somebody who was just excreting natural uranium. So the tests that we have been developing look for perturbation of the isotope ratio in the urine. The techniques that are used to do this (and you use a mass spectroscopic technique) have really been developed initially in geology, mainly for studying rocks, so they crush up rocks, dissolve them in acid, get them into accrete (?) solution and then analyse them to look at the isotope composition of metals such as uranium. By doing that you can tell things about the dates of the rocks and where they came from. I am not a geologist so I do not know the detail, but that is where the techniques have been developed.
When we came to look at this there was really very little experience anywhere in the world of trying to apply these sorts of techniques to biological media such as urine, which of course do not behave necessarily exactly the same as accrete (?) samples, and so our initial task was really to see whether a test could be developed that was sufficiently sensitive and sufficiently accurate to detect perturbation of the isotope ratio in urine from meaningful exposures to depleted uranium that might have occurred 14 or 15 years ago.15. THE CHAIRMAN: That is the point where I am really beginning to lose you. One would have guessed that all the 238, as it were, would have been excreted years ago.
A. It is depleted uranium. Depleted uranium is just uranium with a slightly different isotope ratio. As I explained, a substantial part of the exposure is likely to be highly insoluble uranium oxides and because these are highly insoluble they stick around in the body for a long time and only slowly get dissolved away. Even now somebody who inhaled insoluble uranium oxides 15 years ago would be still excreting some of that depleted uranium and they will go on excreting it into the future.
16. THE CHAIRMAN: Forever?
A. Until they die. How much is coming out gradually decays, so initially you get quite a lot coming out in the urine, it goes down over time but the rate at which it goes down goes down more slowly as you get longer in the future.
Posted by Pale Rider on Oct 27, 2005 at 6:36 PM More excerpts - excellent testimony from a ‘non-American’ source, the Brits.
THE CHAIRMAN: What is proposed now? You have been looking at 32 over the last three years or so. What is proposed now?
A. We only got to the stage of being able to do that earlier this year, and having successfully completed that pilot testing today we are announcing in the press the start of the main testing programme.
26. THE CHAIRMAN: I think we have read it in the press already. I thought I read it in The Times.
A. It is in The Times. There is an advert in the Sun. I did not get contacted by any of the other papers yesterday so I do not know if any of the others carried the story.
27. THE CHAIRMAN: The Times carried the story this morning.
A. Yes, I have seen that.
28. THE CHAIRMAN: That is accurate, is it?
A. It is accurate in its main message. Like most press articles it has a number of inaccuracies. It is a little bit inaccurate where it talks about what has been done previously in terms of attempts at this sort of testing. The true picture is that there have been a number of scientific papers published in which investigators have attempted to assess exposure to depleted uranium retrospectively and the results have been published. However, the authors of those papers have not published data on the sensitivity and the accuracy of their methods and I think there are doubts about whether the methods are sufficiently valid to give credence to the results from at least some of those tests. Ours, as far as I am aware, is the first example in which somebody has actually tried to assess how reliable the testing would be.
29. THE CHAIRMAN: Retrospectively. How many people are you going to then test? What is your plan? How long will it take?
A. Well, the plan is that of those who are eligible to be tested - and I can give you the eligibility criteria if you need them, it is probably easier to give them to you in writing - which includes all the veterans of the Gulf War conflict and also the veterans of the Yugoslav campaign after the time when depleted uranium was used there, should be able to have a test. The difficulty at the moment is that we have absolutely no idea what the demand will be so we have had to try to take a sensible line in the first place with flexibility built in so that if necessary we can scale up if we get a very big demand. On the other hand, if we find that there is very little demand then we do not waste taxpayers’ money providing a very complex testing programme that nobody wants.
Posted by Pale Rider on Oct 27, 2005 at 6:40 PM More excerpts-
THE CHAIRMAN: I have two other short questions. Obviously you have taken account of any research that has been going on in the United States, have you? What is your position?
A. Yes, we have liaison with the groups in the United States that are doing work in this area and I think on this they are a bit behind us.
38. THE CHAIRMAN: We have had, as you probably know, evidence from the United States on depleted uranium. I was just wondering whether you were abreast of all that. You must be?
A. I try to keep abreast of what they are doing in terms of testing. I have not regularly and systematically kept up to date with everything that is being published about depleted uranium and health effects from the United States.
39. THE CHAIRMAN: When are you going to get your first results that are going to be of any use?
A. The laboratories have asked that we allow for three months from collection of samples for them to produce their results. They may be able to do it quicker than that in some cases but that is the sort of timescale that is realistic. This is not like a routine bio-chemical test that you get in hospital. It is really state of the art science and it takes time to get these tests to run properly and you cannot do it with a very high throughput. So it will be some months again before the next batch of veterans start to get their results back and we are trying to make sure that people are aware of that when they come forward for testing so that they are not disappointed that they do not get things straightaway. It will not affect the accuracy of the tests and if people have to wait months or even a year or so to get tested that will not mean that they cannot get the results at the end of the day. It is not something that has to be done now in order to be picked up. There has been misinformation about that as well going around.
Posted by Pale Rider on Oct 27, 2005 at 6:41 PM Report by Lord Lloyd of Berwick, Great Britain:
http://www.lloyd-gwii.com/admin/ManagedFiles/2/Gulf120405.doc
Lord Lloyd:What was the purpose of this inquiry; why were we set up in the first place? We were set up by Lord Morris, as you all know, as an independent inquiry simply because the Government had refused to set up an inquiry themselves despite continuous pressure from the Royal British Legion since 1997.
What was purpose? The answer is simple: our purpose was to listen to what people had to say, especially what the veterans had to say; to hear about their illnesses; to hear about the complaints which they feel they have in respect of the way they have been treated.
We also, of course, wanted to hear from the many experts in this field, and that we did from leading men and women: six experts who crossed the Atlantic to give us the benefit of their views from the United States; ten experts from the United Kingdom; and one from Germany. We also needed to read the voluminous documents which the Ministry of Defence put before us and that, I can say, all three of us have done.
Two things emerge from all that evidence: first, that many of those returning from the Gulf are ill, both here in the United States; secondly, that those who served in the Gulf were twice as likely to become ill as those who served in Bosnia, or those who remained at home.
Those two facts are indisputable and they seem to us to require a positive response from the Government. That was what the veterans were looking for as a result of our report. We know that from the many letters of appreciation which we received from the veterans themselves. What they want is an end to the delay and procrastination after now more than 14 years.
That was also the view expressed by the very senior members of the armed forces from whom we had the benefit of their evidence…
Posted by Pale Rider on Oct 27, 2005 at 6:45 PM Dr Graveston, from the inquiry testimony cited above:
It is now 14 years since the end of the first Gulf War and many veterans have lost their health, their livelihoods, their families, their homes, their self esteem and sadly, for some, their lives.
It is very disappointing that the Ministry of Defence although I would have to say looking at the MoD’s track record on Gulf veterans’ illness it is not surprising have generally tried to ignore the Lloyd inquiry findings and that the MoD declined to give evidence in person. The MoD, however, did send a doctor - and in my script here I have got “doctor” in quotation marks - to give evidence. However, I understand the evidence was discounted by Lord Lloyd not least because of the registration status of the individual who gave that evidence. I understand that if he had been a member of the clergy the term “defrocked” would have been appropriate. One questions the MOD’s ability to correctly vet somebody so they are actually the person they think they are. I have to say this is very worrying because these people are supposed to be responsible for the defence of the realm and also it reflects badly on their efficiency and the way in which they work and how we can trust them.
The Ministry of Defence seems obsessed with wanting to know how the inquiry was funded and the fact that it was not an “official” public inquiry. The Ministry of Defence seems to be more concerned with bureaucracy and procedure than the health of the ill veterans. In fact, I would say they are hiding behind bureaucracy and procedure. The MoD states that no new information was presented. In my own testimony to the inquiry I presented new information. The existence of information alone is not sufficient to find the underlying cause and mechanisms of Gulf War Syndrome. The information has to be collated to produce a meaningful answer. Anybody here in the medical profession will understand that you do not just collect patient symptoms and signs. You have to formulate them into a diagnosis so that a treatment programme can be planned. The denial of the existence of Gulf War Syndrome by the Ministry of Defence seems to be because of the involvement of just about every bodily system and hence it does not seem to fit into diagnostic criteria. I think Professor Wessely showed you a great list of the range of symptomatology that appears in Gulf War veterans and it would appear that part of the problem is, how shall I say, “We have not seen anything like this before therefore it cannot exist”.
I would challenge that statement. In fact I would very strongly disagree with that view. If one looks at the range of signs, symptoms and conditions found in Gulf veterans, they match the signs, symptoms and conditions that can be found in the autoimmune disease systemic lupus erythematosus, otherwise known to its friends as SLE. In fact, knowledge of this condition is not some medical rocket science but can be found in any undergraduate textbook on general internal medicine. Basically I feel the answer has been lying there all the time. It has only needed the will to look for it.
Posted by Pale Rider on Oct 27, 2005 at 6:48 PM Whoa—too much science? Too much citation of fact, testimony and firsthand knowledge?
Don’t let it all blow your mind at once.
Posted by Pale Rider on Oct 27, 2005 at 6:52 PM Pale Rider,
In the claim by Doug Rokke that 30 members of “his” team are dead, there is a very stark contradiction with the government information. Rokke could score a coup against the military position by proving that his claim is correct. 30 dead soldiers, whose names apparently were known to Rokke (if his claim is correct) are mighty difficult to cover up.
That means 30 families who can talk to us about the deaths of their loved ones. If 30 people died from depleted uranium, as Rokke alleges, it should not be so difficult for us to talk to them. Rokke clearly wants to take the government to task over depleted uranium and he has every motivation to prove the government lied about denying his claim - that is he have every reason to show the government lied UNLESS it is Rokke who lied. I have tried several times to get specific information about those 30 “dead” and he replies to the email but is not responsive to the question. He wants to change the subject. That is not a response that I would expect from someone who can prove that the government’s version is false. Also, Rokke has presented other types of false information. He fabricated a false and misleading quote about a 1943 memo where he claimed that government scientists suggested depleted uranium as a weapon. That is a crock of crap as the memo clearly indicates that the material being suggested was fission products. You can read about this misleading quote at http://www.ntanet.net/traprock.htmlIn many of Rokke’s interviews the interviewer states that Rokke has a Ph.D. in Health Physics. That is false information that Rokke does not correct. This has happened so often as to lead me to think that Rokke is the source of this false information. Rokke has a Ph.D. in education, not in Health Physics. Finally Rokke has sometimes given the impression that he is a research scientist. That also is false information unless one uses an extremely low level definition of a research scientist. For most of his career, he was simply a laboratory assistant at the University of Illinois. He had a reasonably good job for less than six months at an army radiation unit but was terminated during the six month probationary period for new government employees. It is easy to fire a government worker during the first six months but nearly impossible after six months. The last information I have about Rokke’s present work is that he works as a substitute school teacher. If he were truly an expert in health physics, he could easily find work.
Posted by radchemist on Oct 27, 2005 at 7:42 PM Rabbitvoz
wise of the wisehttp://ia200107.eu.archive.org/2/texts/TheCrowdInPeaceAndWar/TheCrowdInPeaceA AndWar.pdf
this site is for all the gun runners and DU war mongersRAMJET and the rest of the clowns are the dumbed down product of the nintendo era
where they can kill without remorse on the video screen
and bombs are not dangerous to the nintendo usersin the real world they are what is known as the sheep that follow
they no longer can use their own brains they rely on a master to tell them what is right and what is wrong.
a product of modern man they are the dumb modern man
and the smart modern man can scarsely grasp even the ancient information
as in Archimedes circa 300 bc infiniti calculations
modern man has just now stumbled onto its meanings
and now only by a rare accident of reading it on a manuscript and having enough knowledge to grapes its meanings,
We the modern man are the dumb in the dark
our time is spent on leisure a lifetime goes by and our brain’s capacity is used 10% of what ancient man’s brain capacityis it any wonder we have fools that say uranium is not harmfull they believe what they have been led to believe they propagate the lies and perpetuate the lie
If in any town USA we dumped 300 tons of DU for the children to play with and suck upon RAmjet and his friends would not even bat an eye
this is what modern man has become
we stumble in the dark because of ramjets and his cronies
we have a president that the rest of the world looks at as a baboon
We are the modern man
90% arrogance and 10% brains
Posted by skullker on Oct 28, 2005 at 1:52 AM radchemist,
Right—now deal with the issue at hand. Namely, sworn testimony before members of the British parliament about the dangers to DU and threats to their own people.
I suspect you are now terrified that you can’t discredity British scientists and politicians and military men because they are beyond your reach—that’s exactly why they are cited here in testimony given publicly, rather than in op/ed pieces that they have written.
Please address the entire testimony of the Brits. They even give you a chance to blame it Anthrax Vaccine and VX gas. Of course, you being a radical chemist, these should be playthings for you.
See, ban the Rabbit and the Rabbits friends come out of the woodwork.
My foot stomps where his cannot.
Posted by pale_rider on Oct 28, 2005 at 1:59 AM As for Mr. Rokke,
So? Schoolteachers are now liars?
If the guy lied, I guess he isn’t a great source.
Note that he is just one of many.
Posted by pale_rider on Oct 28, 2005 at 2:01 AM prolonged small doses of low grade DU is still harmfull for the poor IRAQI kids that play in it
the fumes and puffs on microscopic laidened uranium that is breathed by American soldiers are lethal
the congress the deaf blind and dumb
the President is a liar and a warmonger profiteer
the judicial system is controlled and trial outcomes are preordainedAmerica is no longer free
We are pawns in their game
America in financial ruin
america the bringer of deathand the nintendo generation goes on without even noticing it
America is now the target of redicule from around the world
Jay Leno parades the nintendo generation out each nite asks them the simplest of questions and they all stand agape no answers
degeneration in the highest order
Posted by skullker on Oct 28, 2005 at 2:22 AM >>>>>>Right—now deal with the issue at hand. Namely, sworn testimony before members of the British parliament about the dangers to DU and threats to their own people. <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
I am a scientist myself with 25 years experience on dealing with radioactive materials. I have yet to see credible evidence that depleted uranium is a serioius problem. A minor problem yes, but not one that is causing birth defects or cancer.
Posted by radchemist on Oct 28, 2005 at 2:31 AM Yoh! radchemist
Quote the radchemist:
“I am a scientist myself with 25 years experience on dealing with radioactive materials. I have yet to see credible evidence that depleted uranium is a serioius problem. A minor problem yes, but not one that is causing birth defects or cancer.”Well IF, you’re a scientist your credibility has just taken a nose dive!
As “scientific method” radchemist your technique stinks!You obviously have not done as I asked and reviewed the thread have you?
So far, you have only brought your preconceived opinion to the table.Quote:
“I am a scientist…..yabbitty yak” and “I have not seen credible evidence….yikkidy burp”Opinion!
Opinion that you would have realized has been soundly discredited by previous postings, IF you had taken the time to read them.Now IF what you say is true.
IF your opinion is worth even a Tu*d in the toilet….Then why the hell do they have to quarantine any INFECTED equipment and bury it deep under the desert dunes?
Review & Read the Thread & LinksWhy do they not just throw U238 nuclear waste into landfills in the U.S.A?.
Or any other country for that matter?
This stuff is a serious waste problem all over the world!
Why does nobody want it in their back yard?
And why do the governments of the world spend millions and millions trying to come up with an answer as to what to do with it?
Review & Read the Thread & LinksWell it seems the present US government has come up with at least a partial answer!
Why we dump it on remote Indian Reservation lands!.
And what we don’t give to the Indians in remote areas we make into bombs!
Good Idea, Say What! “radchemist”?
We will sell it to the taxpayer, and make bombs and bullets out of it.
We will make bombs and bullets and kill people with it, in foreign, “Empire Building” wars.
Review & Read the Thread & LinksAnd where it has found its way into people’s backyard, an expensive cleanup has to be initiated because the cover-up no longer is sufficient.
Review & Read the Thread & LinksThese questions have never been even addressed let alone answered by you “Nuclear Waste, DU” proponents.
Review & Read the Thread & LinksYou have not done your homework “radchemist”
Otherwise you would have read any number of scientific articles that delineate the serious nature of the DU issue and its tragic consequences.
Review & Read the Thread & LinksAs time goes on, we will ALL see more and more of the tragic results of your FOLLY.
And your Folly will be revealed as your legacy.
You will have contributed to a legacy of death and destruction.
Death and destruction, that your dedication to a foul and false ideology will have caused.The lies and disinformation of DU proponents cannot possibly keep the ugly truth about this stuff from being revealed.
“RAD” IF, you’re a scientist, you have just shown yourself to have the credibility of the Buffoon scientist “BEAKER” on the Muppet Show, from a few years back.
He was always blowing his damed stupid self to bits as you have just done.You make yourself and your cause look FOOLISH by not dealing with the FACTS that this thread has dealt with.
You show very clearly a “Willful Ignorance” and an “Intellectual Dishonesty,” when you so brazenly ignore Facts set that have been set so clearly before you.To go on insisting that the world is FLAT, is making you guys look awful stupid.
Not that I mind that, nor think that that can be avoided.“radchemist” You have just flunked “Intellectual Honesty 101”
Posted by Eadora on Oct 28, 2005 at 5:25 AM See, ban the Rabbit and the Rabbits friends come out of the woodwork.
My foot stomps where his cannot.
Hello ITT - Seamus or anyone else.
Curious Dave wants to know :
Has Rabbit been banished?
Why?
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 28, 2005 at 5:35 AM ..................................................^^......................... ...........................
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 28, 2005 at 9:58 AM Hooray…....................Rabbit is back….............................
Thankyou to the nice ones who were concerned for Rabbit. It has started working now, suddenly, after trying several times yesterday today including just two hours ago…........Rabbit is hopping again, and didn’t even have to use new ............ULTRA-Rabbit, know not now if it was a hacking attack or ITT hiccup which Rabbit heard about but which has persisted for Rabbit only, maybe OZ?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 28, 2005 at 10:03 AM Curious….................Dave…......................yes ........CD
Now back to business, Rabbit shall read and see what the troops have posted to Roger’s new Eagle.
Radchemist…...Maybe a methcook? Radcook.
Why should we not indulge in Name calling? We have exhausted every issue regarding Depleted Uranium Use, it’s effects which are not theory but history and ongoing, and of the lies and the LIARS who tell them. We the assembled and many others along the way, have posted so much information about the stuff the thread has a standing as a reference tool for those seeking an education as RAMJET, hero of the New World Order, keeps hopefully bleating about. So Rabbit Told Ramjet to produce another co-shill, and he did, right on cue, jumping to the merry Rabbit tune as always Ramjet. Those who don’t get it look back down the thread a bit to when Ramjet crawled up from the smush which was the remains of his previous legion of tries, after a month off the thread (Yes Rabbit knows it was only 18 days or so, he wanted to see the shill trip up by pointing it out, thus well).........you get it ok, so when Rabbit makes small strange errors like this, watch the Ramjets response cause he falls for it every time like a puppet, a silly puppet…..........Ramjet is Rabbit’s silly Puppet. What would we like Ramjet, who now has a dummy on his own knee, called Radcook, what would we like him to do, what contortions would we like to see? Don’t be too creative now, we have seen his limited bag of tricks, one can go to any page, and work up or down a bit, to find him doing exactly the same things, saying the same things, being squashed like a bug beneath so many feet at once sometimes it is hard to see what is left, it just vaporises, every time it seems.
Just some simple maneuver, preferably something it can lie about, that is what it does best. The answer does not have to be hard, and just because you think the answer is obvious and old news, wait, see what the SHILLS can do, they are tricky and stupid all at once.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 28, 2005 at 10:19 AM Skulker ITT is a Keep it simple site which encourages folks to evolve in small ways, which is not altogether bad. It also has the odd little characteristic, that it adds a space to things which are longer than the comment box. This although cute, does make posting urls, somewhat troublesome. One of the Shills, a vampiress known as Nat the Bat, first noticed it and
proposed
thesolution.It still needs to be watched when using tiny urls, especially with HTML, they can still break.
Rabbit hopes this service has been of assistance. Agree with Eadora, this is not a scientist. If it wishes to be given anything except wacks and pokes with sticks, then it must prove it has read the thread, for we deserve more respect at this stage of the thread, after a great deal of logical and scientific debate offerrred by us only to be spurned in favour of repeating prpaganda and ignoring the most important issues we wish to discuss, sticking to your script, we have been there and will not be dragged back by A Parachuting Puppet from out of Rogers A-Hole. ON CUE, that is you. Right on cue, subtle as a rotting corpse.
RADCOOK
Rabbit bets this one is much higher up the food chain than Roger, it seems more subtle, by a degree, Roger is just a mediocre middle ranker, who rose to his level of incompetance and stayed there, like they do. So a little birdy told Rabbit.
What qualifications does it take to tell the truth Rad Cook?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 28, 2005 at 10:48 AM And HAIL to the Pale Rider who comes like the Wrath of the Gods and brings poignant and overhwelming reality to a thread which has dealt more with real issues and not theoretical science anyway, Rad Cook, late for the date, way to late to change the debate.
Rider rides in…......... blasts the beasts with an atom bomb of evidential and precise postings and they are left…............. PALE.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 28, 2005 at 10:57 AM >>>I am a scientist myself with 25 years experience on dealing with radioactive materials.
Well, a scientist would be troubled by the presence of high amounts of DU in the urine and in the body of individuals who have been exposed to the substance, correct?
The problem is, anyone can claim expert authority. I make no such claim for myself whatsoever. I will not spew bullcrap and pretend to be something that I am not. I am simply a Veteran who believes that the VA is underfunded and understaffed and has been overwhelmed by DU victims the same way it has been done wrong by Agent Orange victims and by the victims of Nuclear weapons tests in the 1950’s.
It is troubling that anyone would respond in such a manner on these pages—it is more proof of a coverup orchestrated by people who have much to lose if the world were clued in to what the true danger of DU really is.
>>>I have yet to see credible evidence that depleted uranium is a serioius problem. A minor problem yes, but not one that is causing birth defects or cancer.
The statement above is a non-starter. Clinical trials have been done, right? Ample demographic evidence has been collected, right?
The fact is—no one has adequately studied this problem as of late. There is overwhelming empirical evidence, cited here by myself and by other posters, that DU poses a threat to humans because of the nature of how it is used and how it is distributed into the environment.
What should trouble you is that I am not a raging loony lefty or a smelly hippie in Birkenstocks—just a citizen who goes to work every day and can read, comprehend and understand.
What should trouble you is the testimony given to the British government—they are beyond your reach and you cannot smear the Brits.
What should trouble the site—In these times—is that we are stronger than they are and we are disseminating the truth while they hem and haw and worry about their pathetic existence. This is bigger than a blog comment thread.
It is a movement.
Posted by Pale Rider on Oct 28, 2005 at 11:32 AM Hello: radchemist, Natalie & Col Helbig
The Rokke, Morett Canard has been done to death by you guys.
If Rokke and Morett are engaged in Fabrication and Lie as you allege.
Fabrication and Lie that does damage to the effort to prosecute the so-called
“War on Terrorism”Do you not think for a moment that they would be charged and brought to the dock by the DOD, proponents for the use of DU?
Why do you think they have formulated and passed the so-called “Patriot Act.”
The fact is the Government and DOD dare not touch them with a barge pole!
Why! Because they speak the truth!
They know that if they charged these people for spreading misinformation and lies they would not be able to avoid the light that would be shone on the subject of DU.They would not be able to SILENCE the defense as they did in the case cited earlier.
Posted by Pale Rider on Oct 27, 2005 at 7:19 AMThey know that if they tried to prosecute them,
“THE TRUTH ABOUT DU WOULD HAVE OUT”They are deathly afraid to open that can of WORMS are they not.
The very fact that the Gov & DOD refuse to move against Rokke & Morett speaks volumes as to your lak of credibility.
Your accusations against them are shown to be a straw man!Of coarse this has been pointed out to you before on this thread.
After which you promptly changed the subject and proceeded to repeat OTHER LIESLike the LIE you engaged in regarding M-16 and Bunker Buster DU ordinance.
Once your LIE is revealed you scurry back under the rug.
You refuse to deal with the FACTS presented and proceed to try and change the subject.
You seem so mindlessly dedicated to your bloody cause that you do not realize the damage this tactic does you.It makes you guys look UGLY!
WE ARE NOT GOING AWAY!
Posted by Eadora on Oct 28, 2005 at 2:22 PM Quote the Rabbit
“And HAIL to the Pale Rider who comes like the Wrath of the Gods and brings poignant and overhwelming reality to a thread”
I will second that!
Pale Rider! “Wraith Of Truth!”
Posted by Eadora on Oct 28, 2005 at 2:32 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>If Rokke and Morett are engaged in Fabrication and Lie as you allege.
Fabrication and Lie that does damage to the effort to prosecute the so-called
“War on Terrorism”Do you not think for a moment that they would be charged and brought to the dock by the DOD, proponents for the use of DU? <<<<<<<<<
Not at all. On what charges would they be tried? They could not be brought to trial on anything they have said because the country has freedom of expression. Even lies, if they are not done with malice, are protected free speech. Even the Patriot act does not eliminate freedom of expression. By the way, freedom of expression protects your writing on this forum. If you were in an country that did not have that, you might be thown into prison for what you say on this board.
Posted by radchemist on Oct 28, 2005 at 2:49 PM >>>>> Like the LIE you engaged in regarding M-16 and Bunker Buster DU ordinance. <<<<<<<<<<
I have never discussed that subject at all.
Posted by radchemist on Oct 28, 2005 at 2:50 PM I noticed a curious coincidence about David Lindorff and Doug Rokke. I have been in touch with Doug Rokke for a couple of years by email, where he uses the user name dlind49. That is remarkably similar to the username of dlindorff who according to his post on this thread is the David Lindorff who wrote the article that started this thread. Could it be that David Lindorff and Doug Rokke are one and the same?
Posted by radchemist on Oct 28, 2005 at 3:09 PM Unfortunately, In These Times does not have adequate staff to moderate discussions. Due to numerous complaints we are closing the discussion on this article. Thanks for your understanding.
Posted by seamus on Oct 28, 2005 at 3:33 PM OK, after a reasonable request to have this thread opened back up for a limited amount of time, we’ve decided to let people have their final say before closing the door.
This forum will close tomorrow night at midnight, so if you have something to say, say it now.
Posted by seamus on Oct 28, 2005 at 7:03 PM Thanks Seamus, ITT has once again proven it’s prudence and temperance.
In These Times,
Thank you for providing the forum for this discussion.
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 28, 2005 at 8:57 PM Any reputable scientist would agree DU poses a great risk to life and limb if injested either by breathing it, or swallowing it.
those that claim otherwise are known as Charletan scientiststhe radiation that is present while still of low level intensity
is not a healthy situation to a child in Iraq that is playing with it, sucking on it ,on a daily basis.
Alot of charletans have come out of their sese pools to claim that DU is safe enough to be a household product.
A moron with only a high school degree,will make more sense then the charletan scientist.
DU if handled a few times in a life time poses no risk ,but minute amounts that are taken into a person’s bloodstream Is more toxic than arsenic
and finally to the charletan scietist I will like to fill your back yard with 300 tons of DU so your kids can suck on it and play in it ,and every once in awhile we can get you to breath a few puffs of it for us and we will see if you think it is ok and not dangerous
your a charletan SIR !
Posted by skullker on Oct 28, 2005 at 10:38 PM To all the service men that fly by their conscience
have their onw heads on their shoulders and although
follow orders still have the where with all to be your own man
own judge
SALUT
you are the real american herosto the rest of you bums
you are the dumb doorknobs the grunts that are too stupid
to even see your actions
“it’s a wonder you still know how to breathe” BOB
Posted by skullker on Oct 28, 2005 at 10:50 PM Natalie a COL helbig the nitwits here
You are pathetic people
I would enjoy watching you both breathe puffs of DU and watch your kids suck on it
You have both proven beyond the shadow of a doubt
that both of you are sick in the head
both deserve each other and both belong in IRAQ at the front lines
front and centre at every DU bombing sitre to effect the clean up using only a tooth brush
your attitudes prove you do not care about the soldiers that are in IRaq
your actions prove you are not fit to be in the humna race
the sese pools where you normally lay should be flushed with 300 tons of powdered DU on a daily basis for 1 yearthis is
COL. D.Stanley Cdn Army
salut
Posted by skullker on Oct 28, 2005 at 10:59 PM I pray for the day when the monsters who have spread Toxic Nuclear Waste , aka depleted uranium , by way of bombs and bullets will be held accountable for their truly evil crimes.
To all that have defended and endorsed the use of this toxic and poisonous weaponry :
I spit on you.
To all that have fought against the monsters and their toxic nuclear waste weapons :Keep up the good fight .
I thank you.
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 28, 2005 at 11:47 PM For all good people who read these words
And who have yet to decide what is right
Go back to the start of this tortuous thread
and read from all of us what has been saidSee the evidence listed, with so many sources
Of truth with examples and history, science
You will also see liars who pretend to be men
If you open your eyes you will see them my friendThe lies that they tell are proven as false
Though they tell them again and again
To serious questions they never reply
Just so long as they can make babies die<i>Rabbit saw the ugliness of this issue from the start, and had no choice but to see it through to the end. Rabbit knew, from page two that this was the very mouth of the Dragon, the Pentagon door. It is scary and many things have happened to Rabbit’s computer and those of his friends. There has been underhanded tricks aplenty from these SHILLS, and they have finally conributed along with a virtual revolution from us citiziens, to the shutting down of this thread.
It is best, for there is nothing more to say.
Rabbit has said all he wishes to about those few Charlatans, Proffessional Propagandists for Nuclear death.
They are the lowest form of humanity he has ever come into contact with, they are cursed and it is unlikely they will even get another chance to right their karma, it is too late. It will be into the fiery pit, whatevetr that may be, for you scum when the time comes. When fate calls game over for you cruds, you will have no way back, just down.
Depleted Uranium is far more deadly than the SHILLS would have you believe. They only want to talk about radiation, when the problem is the thing they don’t talk about, see the above thread, they have avoided direct questions about it for months. Ceramic Uranium Oxide Vapours. The quantity is closer to 3000 tons in Iraq this time, and it has been covered many times. Near the end here, several people have made VERY good cases for the much larger amount.
Thankyou…......ITT...... for bearing with this, it has been a troublesome issue for you to have in house.
You are in the kitchen, and the heat is what it is. Live with it.
Remember this and let it be a reminder every time you here the word…......................GULF WAR SYNDROME
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 29, 2005 at 12:42 AM All the Good and brave warriors, this is our thread, we have carried the day, Rabbit will be vigilant for the rest of the time, but we all need to ensure we keep the lid on these creatures until the final bell tolls. Midnight.
Hee hee It is like staking the Vampires at Midnight, and burying them in the dirt. Rabbit will be here, waiting with his little shovel, ready to bury the horrible Nuclear Waste, along with the shills which came in with it.
Dig Dig Dig…...................................................^^................. ..............................
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 29, 2005 at 12:46 AM Every movement begins with the notion that, when something is wrong, good people must do something.
Every movement starts with a thought that, if not me, then who?
Peaceful, non-violent political activism is the proof of good citizenship of the world in this new century. We are now connected in various places, an e-mail away, instant chat, VoIP—you name it.
We are one.
Stop the lies about Depleted Uranium and let the truth run out into the light like a new child seeing the sun in the first rays of health and life.
We do it because there are children who will never walk, never see a healthy day.
Stop the lies about the devil’s weapons.
Agitate. Educate. Organize.
Posted by pale_rider on Oct 29, 2005 at 1:43 AM Eadora, skullker, David—
A Band of Brothers.
THANK YOU for the light you shine on these dark corners of horror and THANK YOU for speaking out and having the courage to post.
radchemist makes a pithy comment about free speech—
who speaks for the dead? Who speaks for those poisoned by depleted uranium?
Not you.
radchemist speaks to the living to keep the souls of the dead from haunting him, thinking that the dead have gone away forever.
We, the living who want to see the truth come out one day, we know that the dead must carry on.
They must have a voice.
Their voice comes from a Band of Brothers who speak the truth and do not forget them.
That’s free speech. That’s courage.
You people honor me with your kind words. The shills will be haunted all their days by the howls of the dead.
Amen, for the dead.
We do not forget. We do not run away. We remember you.
We will take up the fight for you.
Posted by pale_rider on Oct 29, 2005 at 1:49 AM Wow !
Thank you Seamus Holman!
I am weeping!Thank you! So Much!
What can I add that has not been said twice over!
But Thank You! ITT!
Pale Rider, David, do not get lost!
Kcooper85@cogeco.ca
And thumbs up! To the Rabbit!
Posted by Eadora on Oct 29, 2005 at 2:07 AM And special for the skullker.
This thread would have died a silent death but for you.!
You jump started it again!
Posted by Eadora on Oct 29, 2005 at 2:15 AM Yes ... thank you Skullker
It has proven to be a great finale, large thanks to you.
Dave Lindorff,
Special thanks to you for the original contribution.
Eadora, Pale Rider, Kaw Valley Kid, and others from back at the start of this thread, again, thank you all.
braverdave@hotmail.com
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 29, 2005 at 3:15 AM Ban bananas and ceramic tile .. they are genocidal ..
From a professional list by a Radiation Safety Officer
All ceramic tiles contain low-level radioactivity, usually uranium and its
decay products. Earlier, a shipment of tiles from Italy was stalled at sea
when it was found to contain radioactivity. Don’t forget bananas in very
large bunches are ‘radioactive’. They are a good source of Potassium and
consequently Potassium-40Did any of you see the PBS show on the removal of the uranium from the German atomic pile (first generation nuclear reactor) .. one of the Army ALSOS team members still had a piece of German uranium encased in plastic in his desk ..and that was enriched uranium, not U238
Posted by Ramjet on Oct 29, 2005 at 7:46 AM See the Pentagon SHILL.!
Did Rabbit not predict it would slither up. It is waiting to the last moments of this thread to post it’s dirty lies AGAIN, get ready friends it is waiting like an epidemic to cast itself across this thread with all it’s lies re-newed as if they we’re being heard for the first time.
Ramjet we have long since got your number, about two months ago, scumbag. You are the clown of this thread the eternal Judy to our PUNCH. You have slavered over the stuff you live to love and you are the filth of human regrets. Your artificial backers have been parthenogenic creations from the end of your failed cause. Your cause is infinite death and destruction. You are a PROFFESSIONAL LIAR and those who read this thread will always be watching for your name to recur in connection with the worst most hideous War Crime of Human History. This may well become known twenty years from now as the final great act of evil which stopped the race in it’s madness. youi may be among the last great monsters of history. The alternative Ramjet, is that you and rabbit are going to meet up in the spirit world one of these fine days, and rabbit should warn you he keeps his eyes open on the way out these days. You may not realise the signifricance of that, Roger, but your soul does, ASK IT
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 29, 2005 at 9:32 AM Yoh! Quote Col. Helbig
“Did any of you see the PBS show on the removal of the uranium from the German atomic pile (first generation nuclear reactor) .. one of the Army ALSOS team members still had a piece of German uranium encased in plastic in his desk ..and that was enriched uranium, not U238 “Now there is a Hell of an Idea Col.Helbig!
Get yourself a piece of that stuff.
The enriched variety I mean.
Nothing but the best for the officer in charge of the “Los Alamos Proponency Directive”
Keep it as a memento of the quality time we have all spent together here on ITT..
Stick it under your pillow and see what the tooth fairy will bring.
Be sure to send us all a postcard from Hell.
Posted by Eadora on Oct 29, 2005 at 2:34 PM Yoh! Quote Col. Helbig
“Did any of you see the PBS show on the removal of the uranium from the German atomic pile (first generation nuclear reactor) .. one of the Army ALSOS team members still had a piece of German uranium encased in plastic in his desk ..and that was enriched uranium, not U238 “Now there is a Hell of an Idea Col.Helbig!
Get yourself a piece of that stuff.
The enriched variety I mean.
Nothing but the best for the officer in charge of the “Los Alamos Proponency Directive”
Keep it as a memento of the quality time we have all spent together here on ITT..
Stick it under your pillow and see what the tooth fairy will bring.
Be sure to send us all a postcard from Hell.To all late comers: “Read the Thread”
Posted by Eadora on Oct 29, 2005 at 2:36 PM Colonel Helbig and other Toxic Nuclear Waste worshippers.
I pity you. Get down on your knees ....
You still have not answered an important question.
Many have asked but you have not answered. You talk of bananas !! Get real please.
Answer this :
How do you justify spreading Toxic Nuclear Waste in foreign countries in the form of exploded munitions?
If toxic nuclear waste is so great then why don’t we make ceramic tile out of it? How about baby carriages?
How much should we bury in your back yard?
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 29, 2005 at 8:13 PM Many thanks to “David in Canada” for alerting us from another thread to this one, as it is about to close!
Also many thanks to Dave Lindorff (whom I “know” only from his excellent contributions to Counterpunch)! If only you were the face of mainstream American journalism…
No time to read through all the posts on this topic, but I happened to notice the word “napalm”. Just for the record, I wanted to note that its use goes way back - far further than most people are aware of. The first use of napalm I know of was in Dresden in February 1945 (though there may well have been earlier uses). The maternal grandmother of my son was a 10-year-old local girl on that fateful night. And she remembers people running around screaming who could not be helped by any means - due to a burning substance they had on their skin that nothing could put out. No flames, just burning…
While you put your country’s Tookie Williamses to death:
http://www.counterpunch.com/gasper10282005.html
you allow the chemical industry to produce its deadly brew…Shame on you, America! Shame on all of us other countries with our industries that profit from producing the tools of inhumanity and suffering.
Up the revolution…
Posted by Anarcho-Sozi on Oct 29, 2005 at 9:11 PM Thanks, Canadian Dave, for alerting us to the coming end of this discussion on DU and it’s dangers or lack thereof. I left the discussion for dead long ago, but obviously I was premature.
I direct my final comments toward anyone, who, after reading the article “Radioactive Wounds of War”, might be skeptical of the assertions made therein. I was, and after evaluating genuine peer-reviewed studies that generally concluded that there was no substantial health hazard posed by DU (unless it hits you, of course) and stacking them up against the largely emotion-based, often uncredentialed, usually anti-American military power, and sometimes ridiculously ghoulish documents claiming the opposite, I easily came to a conclusion. The anti-DU people will drown you in volumes of scary rhetoric. Consider the sources….consider the quality and integrity of the information.
I encourage you to read these two studies thoroughly:
“In the aftermath of the use of ammunition containing Depleted Uranium (DU) during the Gulf War in 1991 and in the Balkans in the nineties, a controversy emerged in the public opinion on the alleged effects of DU on man’s health and on the environment. Official reports, mainly of military origin, are strongly questioned in the public opinion, being often interpreted as a justification or part of a cover-up. This controversy reached its peak towards the end of the year 2000, when DU was held responsible for the incidence of leukemia in soldiers of the Italian peace-keeping force.
Having in mind how difficult it is to get scientific facts across to the general public and how strong a distrust there is against official statements, particularly when radioactivity is involved, this report summarizes the present state of knowledge about the effects of DU on man and environment. It bases on a comprehensive re-examination and critical review of the scientific literature, in particular the medical literature and reflects the authors’ collective experience and expertise.”
http://www.europarl.eu.int/stoa/publi/pdf/stoa100_en.pdf
****************
“Given that radiation-induced birth defects have never been clearly observed in humans at any dose, the likelihood of significant increases in birth defects from the very modest DU radiation exposure is improbable to the extreme.”
http://tinyurl.com/85ark
This brings us back to the main subject of the article, Gerard Matthews. While we of course sympathize with he and his daughter’s health problems, we never-the-less must evaluate the validity of blaming them on DU. Parental radiation exposure does not cause offspring to have birth defects. Of course this is a natural conclusion given that most people connect radiation with birth defects, but even the atomic blasts in Japan did not produce the waves of deformed babies one might expect. There was no significant increase in incidence.
In addition, according to this interview (link below) of Matthews, his symptoms started the day he arrived in Iraq. I can think of many reasonable explanations for that, such as heat, fear, stress, innoculations, etc., but exposure to DU is not one of them. It would appear to me that Matthews is being willingly used by the anti-DU movement with an eye on being compensated for whatever health costs he and his daughter might incur in the future. No dummy, Matthews. Looking out for his family, I can admire that.
http://traprockpeace.org/gerard_matthew_09dec04.html
Very interesting the possibility raised by “radchemist” that Doug Rokke could be one in the same as Dave Lindorff. He does provide compelling evidence for this. I haven’t had time to evaluate this yet, perhaps it is ridiculous, but…..perhaps not. Rabbit feels free to imagine all sorts of collaborations and connections, and I declare that same freedom for myself.
Posted by Natalie on Oct 30, 2005 at 12:25 AM anarcho-Sozi:
I was thinking that may have well been phosphorus, another nasty anti-personnel device, but our resident munitions expert tells me, yes indeed, Dresden was the test-bed for napalm. Dow Chemical: ‘better living through chemistry’. They were also doing business with the Nasties. The wing-nuts all think our anti-corporatism is just class warfare scare tactics. It would make me laugh if it didn’t make me ill.
Posted by luminous beauty on Oct 30, 2005 at 12:52 AM Natalie,
You’re a vicious, cold-hearted shill for the DU apologists and nothing you say here has any merit.
Cute how you’re complementing radchemist and trying to derail the thread—
The reality is all right there—DU is a highly dangerous, killer element that has been unleashed throughout the world without proper study or management.
You are sent to lie about it but you cannot continue lying anymore—
Go read the thread. The Brits are on to you and they will expose the lies. The Brits are beyond the scope of your reach.
The blood of innocents is stained upon your hands.
Stop the lying.
Posted by pale_rider on Oct 30, 2005 at 1:32 AM Read the thread—Natalie is Col Helbig’s shill.
Radchemist is another ramjet alias.
The thread hasn’t died—only the innocent victims of Depleted Uranium have died.
Shove some in your pockets, Natalie. You, too—Col Helbig.
See how safe it is.
Report back when you’ve had your exposure to DU.
Posted by pale_rider on Oct 30, 2005 at 1:34 AM ............................................................................. ..........................^^.................................................... .........................................
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 30, 2005 at 3:18 AM Wait now. I thought I was Col Helbig’s wife. No wait…daughter. I’m so confused now. Just a shill? How boring!
I think pale_rider is Rabbit’s shill. Or vice-versa? “Read the thread!”
Actually, pale, I remember some information you yourself strangely posted that concluded that it would indeed be quite safe to shove some DU in your pockets, or wherever else. (use your imagination)
“Contact with bare skin presents another external radiation exposure path. DU produces a dose rate of about 0.2 rem/hour, largely from beta radiation, when in contact with bare skin. A person would exceed the current occupational dose limit for skin (50 rem in a year) only if unshielded DU (e.g., bare penetrators) directly contacted the skin for more than 250 hours in a year. Some reports mistakenly have applied the total effective dose equivalent (whole body dose) criterion of 0.1 rem/year for members of the public to this exposure of the skin only, leading to the erroneous conclusion that contact with one exposed DU penetrator could subject a person to a dose of radiation thousands of times higher than the recommended limit. This conclusion is erroneous because contact with a DU penetrator exposes only a very small part of the body, namely the skin in direct contact with the DU. The radiation limit for the public assumes the exposure is to the entire body and that the partial body exposure carries a smaller risk than whole-body exposure. In addition, the risk from skin exposure is much less than the risk associated with exposure to more sensitive internal organs.”
“In fires and during impact, DU forms mixtures of both soluble and insoluble oxide aerosols. Although there was a well-founded concern about possible adverse health effects from inhaling these aerosols, exposure assessments (presented in Section IV) and medical monitoring conducted to date indicate no health hazard from inhaled DU aerosols. As noted in Section IV below, the estimated doses for the worst-case Gulf War scenario were smaller than 5 rem and well below the radiation levels known to cause health effects in people.”
“Some veterans have expressed concern about the possibility of cancer from their Gulf War DU exposure. The scientific evidence on this issue is clear. ATSDR stated: “No human cancer of any type has ever been seen as a result of exposure to natural or depleted uranium.” Similarly, RAND concluded: “Although any increase in radiation to the human body can be calculated to be harmful from extrapolation from higher levels, there are no peer reviewed published reports of detectable increases of cancer or other negative health effects from radiation exposure to inhaled or ingested natural uranium at levels far exceeding those likely in the Gulf.”
http://tinyurl.com/8qrfa
Look familiar? It should. You posted it. I would have to conclude that it’s you that are shilling for me. This is very strange.
I’ll report back in 250 hours, but man, this DU is getting mighty uncomfortable. And heavy, too!
There’s that word again! Heavy! ..... Dr. Emmett Brown
Posted by Natalie on Oct 30, 2005 at 3:54 AM Nat.
READ THE THREAD
Numerous studies have been done that show DU to be a serious problem
Non of these have been done by the DOD however
I wonder Why?You have never answered my question.
Hurry up now the clock on this thread is rtunning outIf DU is not a problem why is Nuke generated U238 Waste such a problem in this or any other country.
Why do they have to bury equipment polluted with DU under tons of sand.
UPDATE ON DEPLEATED URANIUM AND GULF WAR SYNDROME
Part 1 of 3 Human Studies
by Rosalie Bertell, Ph.D., GNSH
1 January 2005http://www.iicph.org/docs/du_update_1_3.htm
These articles show the stubborn refusal of the Defense Department to properly study the problem.
http://www.iicph.org/docs/du_update_1_3.htmThe work by Dr. Hari Sharma of the University of Waterloo is especially revealing.
As is the work or Han Kang of the US Depat. Of Vet Affairs, regarding Birth Defect, rates among the families of Gulf War Vets. The Gov shut him down and shut him up before his work could be completed.
Posted by Eadora on Oct 30, 2005 at 4:36 AM Rabbit promised everybody, right here on this thread, did he not? The SHILL Natalie, the
Vampiress from hell, has returned. Of course she only heard about the thread from Dave.
NATALIE is without doubt the most decietful creature on this thread. She has employed the most
clumsily subtle dance of death you will ever encounter.
She began on this thread as a Sweet Innocent, wide eyed all American Girl who had never really
heard much about this DU stuff. She immediately went in to bat for Roger Ramjet…........aka
Lt Colonel Roger Helbig, who had already been proven by his own stupidity to be who he
was, and a PENTAGON SHILL. Nat started saying gratuitously complimentary things to the
known Shill, and quickly became his number one cheerleader. She was not the only one, at least
another two shills pooped in briefly to perform there transparent dances, they were quickly
called and especially the NCO, who Rabbit guessed rightly probably was a seargent, he’d
admitted also to a red-handed role in perpetrating and coving up the dangers of this stuff. He
and ohers like him, who may or may not have been directly connected to the main Shill pair soon
faded out. The sarge like a puff of smoke.
By now Natalie had begun to quote all the usual lines about Depleted Uranium which the pentagon
is known to prefer to stick to. They are all red herrings or worse outright lies. They only
manage to use this stuff because it is more or less under the radar for the moment.
Natalie had dropped all pretences of being impartial and from then on she and The Known
Pentagon Shill, played a game of tag, with each one getting itself caught finally, pinned down
on specific issues which they have struggled unendingly to avoid. When this moment came, as it
did for each of them repeatedly, over the weeks, the Shill concerned would dissapear, like a
cockroache when the light is turned on. A less than a day would pass, often only hours or
less, before the alternate Shill would pop up like a magic genie, even though that Shill
might have dissapeared like the smoke weeks earlier, there it is again, picking up the argument
from some random point, often one which had been completely destroyed more than once, by
others. Despite being called to account on this on each and every occassion, they just ignored
protests and all the preceding thread as if they were no more than spoken words, lost in the
wind. Instead of published words and references, all of which can be checked on detail then or
in the future.
more….......
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 30, 2005 at 4:43 AM Repeat the Lie!
Repeat the Lie!
Repeat the Lie!
Repeat the Lie!
Repeat the Lie!And when the Lie is exposed
Move on to another Lie
This has been the History of this thread.Pertinent questions were ignored.
Why?So the United states Of America can continue using Depleted Uranium.
A weapon that has been shown to have serious effect long after its battlefield use.
AND THAT IS A WAR CRIME LADIES AND GENTLEMEN>
That fits the agreed upon International definitions of War Crime.And that is what a number of people on this thread have spent hours trying to defend
While another group including myself have spent hours exposing this CRIME for all to see.READ THE THREAD
GLEAN OUT THE LINKS
GLEAN OUT THE TRUTHThere have been many HOT & HOSTILE words spoken on this thread.
But if you look closely at all the evidence put forward.
Both Pro & Con,You will reach the conclusion
Depleted Uranium should be banned.
There can be no justification for using it against anyone let alone in environments where so called “Collateral Damage” will be the result.BAN IT
Posted by Eadora on Oct 30, 2005 at 4:52 AM At one point the two SHILLS, Nat the Bat and Dodgy Rodgy, combined in a sleazy lie and tried to
have Rabbit banned. The thread history shows that this is why Rabbit who was Rabbitvoz, became
a ghost. The Shills then returned to the thread as if nothing had happened and began to
re-tell all their repeatedly Having been banned by deceit Rabbit returned as Ghosts Rabbit and
caught the Shills having immediately, upon Rabbit’s supposed demise. Rabbit returned as
GhostRabbit and brought the swine to earth once more. No matter how much they tried to tell us
so, pigs don’t fly.
Thereafter the games repeated, the SHILLS mostly dodging and picking at people rather than what
they say. Changing the subject and happily blabbering about anything but the issue of Depleted
Uranium, it’s effects and the scientific as well historical evidence of it’s loathsome nature.
The issue is so hideous and the lies so gross, that each soul who has passed this way has been
gradually turned from polite and reasonable, to surprise, then shock as it has ocurred to them that Nat and Roger actually are not merely deluded dittoheads, NONE of whom have dared attend this thread, NOT ONR TROLL has stayed for more than a monet, before obviously being too sickened and disturbed to stay. Nat and Ramjet, both of whom are UNDEAD, have laboured on relentlessly.
Ramjet having been beaten to pulp and spat upon by every civilised soul who came this way, had gone to ground supposedly for good, but Rabbit knew he lurked yet. As before when a new sould chanced to say something from out of the blue, the latest being Skulker, the Ramjet returned with a vengeance, as if he had just hatched out of his little Dragon egg, and was the voice of sanity and reason. The Nat was lured away in classic fashion as can be read in the thread, to 911, and thus showed only that she is a government Shill as Rabbit guessed all along. She was only mentioned as a guaranteed return by Rabbit was it yesterday? Now that the end was nigh.
This thread contains literally hundreds of references and they are quoted in context. It is inevitable that some sources will be quoted more than once and it should be remembered that the TRUTH about Depleted Uranium, Nuclear waste, is found from a combined reading of all which is said, not any one source.One thing which cannot be changed, and that is medical evidence, and historical evidence. Numerous source have been given which show that there is more than enough medical evidence to declare Depleted Uranium to be the most heinous weapon of mass and indiscriminate killing ever employed on a major scale in any conflict in human history.
The end result of this weapon is not just the death and sickness known currently as Gulf war syndrome, and not as the debilitating illnesses which will overtake the population of areas subjected to this SH*T, it is this, and it is Rabbit’s only excuse for having been so hateful and angry with the LIARS. AMERICAN DEMOCRACY IN IRAQ.
DIG DIG DIG, BURY THE MURDERERS........................................^^...............................
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 30, 2005 at 4:55 AM Ha ha ha!
Exactly, Natalie—
I posted the info so you would cite it as proof DU is harmless.
Except that, every other piece contradicts it.
Thank you for asserting that DoD is lying.
If I were fishing and setting hooks and forgetting them, sorry—but that was too easy. What other little pieces of bait have I strung along for you to seize on? radchemist took some bait the other day and was smacked down by the testimony before the British Parliament.
Natalie has dog poo on her shoe, let’s be gentlemen and help her remove it with a piece of DU.
Posted by pale_rider on Oct 30, 2005 at 5:03 AM Minutes to midnight, and it is time to look the TRUTH in the eye, consider those pictures and think about the pictures you have come to associate with Nazi Atrocities, and people, wake up, it is already too late, but not to put a stop to the evil being done anew.
The Pentagon has used at least 3500 tons of Depleted Uranium weapons in Iraq this time around and rabbit predicts it will be seen in history. Let this thread stand as a monument to the culpability of the entire Pentagon apparatus. Go after Helbig and you should be able to pull in the whole Filth circus, like a whirlpool, into the abyss of HELL where they are headed anyway. The sooner the better.
Rabbit dedicates this whole thread to those who have been maaimed and crippled so far and to those who will be before either anhilation or peace overtakes the present disease of humanity.
Rabbit loves all life and Hates the MASTERS OF WAR.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 30, 2005 at 5:04 AM Let’s all find more DoD lies and post them here.
The lies and the truth collide, like the DU has collided with metal, with armor, and dissipated into the air.
Funny how ramjet, then radchemist, then Natalie showed up all in a sequence separated by roughly the same number of hours in the same sequence to counterpost the asserted proof provided here.
Intellectually dishonest, eh, Band of Brothers?
Posted by pale_rider on Oct 30, 2005 at 5:05 AM Minutes to midnight—
Sounds like a Midnight Oil song.
Midnight Oil, from Oz, played in Manhattan, under the Enron windows, made a mighty roar.
Midnight Oil, fought the war machine with music.
When does ramjet show up and start the thread from post number one, lies lies lies, no truth, just saying over and over again that DU is safe, DU is safe.
No, sorry. Scratch that.
DU is killing people today, killing them tomorrow, killing them all along.
Whoops, sorry, forgot to post that, whoops, my mistake, hey hey hey, look over here, got a shiny medal for you to forget the crimes you committed, nothing to see folks, just move along, bye bye now…
Posted by pale_rider on Oct 30, 2005 at 5:08 AM Rabbit is brother to the Pale Rider,
Shills live in your imagination, as you are a shill of a shill of a shill’s shill.
Posted by pale_rider on Oct 30, 2005 at 5:10 AM Notice also that they came in order of calling. Rabbit said the Roger needs another backer, and so in dropped RadCook, a new soul with ideas after months of zilch, yet nothing new. Probably the Ramjet, but maybe the Sarge, don’t they usually have an NCO, an officer and a tart between them? These Shill teams?
Rabbit then said Nata the Bat will be flapping by now that the thread is off and rolling again, she having taken the bait to follow Rabbit to GOD SQUAD, so she could be splattered all over the court separate from this rout, which she has been in up to her pale and punctured neck.
Now the Midnight hour approaches out come the zombies in droves, creping and crawling the stand on the edge of our sight yet they are there alright,........................SHINE THE LIGHT and they are there alright. Natty the Batty is a conspiracy theorist, extraordinare. Rodgy the Dodgy is at least honest when caught, up to his eyeballs in WAR, could only report, and retort like an automaton, while Natalie whored like a desperate charlaton. I love DU it is for the troops that I do it, I love them so deeply I want them to chew it. Said Natty the Batty for whom Roger is Daddy. Rabbit never suggested she and Roger were mated, instead Rabbit said, she came out of his date….......d.
Yes Nat you are that, not a girl just a shat. You are innocent as Babylon and a cheerleader for armageddon.
Dam your soul dam your eyes dam your Karmic surprise, when you come round again, remebere Rabbit didn’t even count to ten.GOOD MORNING SUNSHINE, welcome to the Conga line, down into the pit full of you and the deeds that you do, where your old maits are waiting and their turns to be taking at you and you them as you live it all again. For all of the evil, that came out of your navels, the mirror is true, but the image was you. Now you stand in the reality of the truth you tried not to see, and thetorture you face will be never erased.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 30, 2005 at 5:25 AM Yes Friend Wraith in the saddle, the song was on Rabbit’s mind, “Minutes to Midnight” Great Aussie band. Ordinary politician.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 30, 2005 at 5:27 AM Rappin Rabbit, will crucify you, if you keep on crappin Rabbit will keep on Rappin, and wouldn’t you know it he’s a classical poet.
Pale Rider is a fighter and a man with morals, the SHILLS fight their wars sitting flat on their laurels.
Is this a burying party Pale Rider? ............ Rabbit pauses over his small shovel, looks up to the wraithlike figure tall in the saddle…...............Wasn’t it all going to turn into a pumpkin at Midnight? Here it is Midday of course, but Rabbit lives in the land of Oz, where it is always day.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 30, 2005 at 5:36 AM Friends,
At midnight I will rise to give thanks unto thee because of thy righteous judgments.
Psalms 119 : 62
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 30, 2005 at 5:40 AM Oh shit, it is past midnight and we are still here….......................Rabbit expected it to all go boing and stop, but we are still real, what is this?................Seamus, turn the machine off, ..............................................Why are we still here?
Wonder if the Pentagon is demanding it be kept open now, they are not going to allow it to go down in such ignominious defeat.?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 30, 2005 at 5:58 AM tap tap..
Is this mic back on?
Testing?
mmmmm…....depleted uranium
Posted by Natalie on May 12, 2007 at 3:38 AM hello - Hello - HELLO -
Is anybody Out There.?
I thought the plug on this channel was pulled a couple of years ago!
Posted by Eadora on May 12, 2007 at 1:43 PM -
register a new account »Posting Security
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