‘
Posted by Kuya on Aug 25, 2005 at 7:10 AM
Posted by Liberal on Aug 25, 2005 at 10:17 AM
I thought I was “on top of things”, but I never knew the United States was using Depleted Uranium weapons. Why don’t we just call them dirty bombs, which is exactly what they are. Not only were soldiers affected, but children were, too. This is the culture of life?
So far, this war makes it seem as though the United States:
- Encourages torture
- Disregards our own citizens’ Constitutional rights whenever it’s convenient
- Likes to spread radioactive contamination
- Cares more about oil than women’s rights
- Will destroy anyone (and his CIA-agent wife) who comes out against the war
- Doesn’t give a darn about the U.N.
- Currently has the “W"orst President EVER
This is not the country I thought I lived in. I feel like I’ve been duped my whole life.
Posted by tomgrantusa on Aug 25, 2005 at 4:17 PM
This is not new. The use of depleted uranium in Iraq goes back to the First Gulf War, and the toll on Iraqi children through death and deformity has been documented by humanitarian groups through the years.
This will play out just as Agent Orange did in Vietnam. The government will conclude that there are no side effects to DU, and that the soldiers and their children are delusional. Such is the price of being a pawn in wars of choice.
My greater concern is with the silence of the Congress. There is not a crime committed by this administration which has been challenged or questioned or even acknowledged by the large majority of inactive men and women in Washington.
If you are concerned about the apathy, intimidation, and/or lemming behavior of your own person in Congress, read this editorial through. Then print it out and mail it to your personal Washington Wimp if the shoe fits. It probably will.
The article, from TvNewsLIES.org begins like this:
“What shameful toads you are! Yes you, our elected lawmakers. Yes you, the folks we sent to Washington in our names. Yes you, the most spineless, cowardly and craven Congress people in history. Yes you, the most bullied, gutless and shameful herd of legislators ever elected. And you know exactly who you are.”
To read it all
CLICK HERE
Posted by skipper7 on Aug 25, 2005 at 4:30 PM
Question: Why aren’t stories like this plastered all over the mainstream media? 2nd question:Why is it that the only really positive opinions about Cindy Sheehan are posted in the “letters to the editor section of your daily newspaper? Our beloved country has been taken over by evil nazis,and it seems that nobody cares.
Posted by Dr.D on Aug 25, 2005 at 5:20 PM
For more info:
Health Physics is the radiation safety group.
http://www.hps.org/
Also, if something can “remain radioactive for billions of years” then it must not be putting out much radiation; otherwise it would decay away.
The most you have here is the chemical toxicity danger, not much traction on the radioactivity line.
Posted by jsong123 on Aug 25, 2005 at 7:33 PM
‘The most you have is the chemical toxicity, not much traction on the radioactivity line’
Are you dismissing the implications of heavy metal poisoning? DU does has radioactive properties but it is also a heavy metal. Very heavy. Its particulate properties - (nanoparticles)- are also disturbing but the chemical effects are quite toxic.
The reported symptoms seem more complex than straightforward radiation poisoning. Most likely the radioactive, particulate, and chemical properties in DU exacerbate each other.
These symptoms in young, previously healthy ‘warriors’ points to exposure to several toxins, not only DU (chemical fires etc.)so it is true that DU is one of many exposures, but it is still deadly. This suggests we should be conducting post theater surveillance for symptoms over time. We may not learn everything they’ve been exposed to, but at the very least we can help them get the benefits they deserve.
Posted by reppatdillon on Aug 25, 2005 at 8:24 PM
Some other reports on the subject:
Seattle PI
Rolling Stone
Scott Peterson reported the following in the 1999 Middle East Journal:
“How likely, then, is DU to cause health problems? The answer depends on who you ask. Atomic scientists calculate that each alpha particle can break hundreds of thousands of molecular bonds. There is no shortage of this energy: Every gram of DU produces 12,000 alpha particles per second.”
In the same article, Ron Kathren, academic and radiation expert cited on the issue at jsong123’s http://www.hps.org tries to downplay the theoretical health risks posed by DU but is contradicted by other experts who emphasize the volume of particularized DU released in battlefield situations.
Posted by pocketmouth on Aug 25, 2005 at 10:54 PM
Hello Dr. D,
Answer to both questions 1 & 2: they’re either afraid or complicitous. The mainstream networks and publications are afraid they’ll get tagged as traitors by shrill pro-Bush pundits, or they’re in agreement with the idea that criticism of the government’s policies, even fair and reasonable criticism, is unpatriotic or anti-American.
As for radioactivity v. metallic toxicity, when it comes to taking care of those who have risked their lives and health in war, it doesn’t matter. The government and the entire country is morally obligated not to shirk, not to short-change on this issue. They owe medical care to these people regardless of the health problems that arise from wartime injury or illness. By the way, I submit that the supposed debatability about the properties and risks of DU weapons is a sham; they’ve been used and studied for years. skipper7 hit the nail on the head with the Agent Orange comparison. Disgusting.
Something in me wants to say that health care provision for militars should go without saying, but of course I already know better than that.
Posted by Kuya on Aug 26, 2005 at 12:38 AM
The cost of this war will go way beyond the casualties in Iraq . They will permeate our culture for years in the same way Viet Nam did and even more so. PTSD is already surfacing. How ill our mental health system bear that burden? How about domestic violence? Medical costs for the wounded that even ten years ago may not have survived..and of course, genetic defects.
And mostly, the psyche of this country ahs been destroyed.
See you all at the demo in September!
Posted by robin on Aug 26, 2005 at 1:54 AM
Jsong who are you trying to fool? The background radiation levels in Baghdad today are the equivelant of having a chest x-ray every two hours. Day and night, seven days a week that is sunshine. You might also note how much radiation has been released in Iraq, “this time around” the amount corresponds to the same amount of radiation released from 40, 000 Nagasaki size atom bombs!
By the way Jong didn’t you read the article? The soldiers tested positive and the Baby is deformed. So much for your hopeful theorising.
To read the truth about this war crime see:
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=1776
Posted by Rabbitvoz on Aug 26, 2005 at 2:45 AM
Posted by DU4U on Aug 26, 2005 at 6:21 AM
Trained, armed, hyper-patriotic young men who know they have been tricked pose the greatest threat to tyranny.
Posted by SourDove on Aug 26, 2005 at 8:43 AM
Hypocrites. Motherfucking, evil, base hypocrites. Pardon my language, I just can’t think of any better way to describe these vipers.
Where to begin? Remember how bad Hussein was, he gassed his own people, used bio/chem weapons in the Iraq/Iran war? And we’re supposed to be so much BETTER than that? By spewing this venomous filth into populated areas?
I’m proud to be a citizen and part of this country, warts and all. But I can’t fathom anyone reading stories like this and not feeling the sting and burn of utter, abject shame.
Posted by g-love on Aug 26, 2005 at 8:46 AM
Dr. Jawad Al-Ali head oncologist of the largest hospital in Basra reported over sixty cases of multiple cancers within one family, with some individuals having multiple cancers, all due to DU exposure. Just the small tip of a huge iceberg. As for birth defects, they are averaging 1-2 per day, in one hospital in Iraq. Mothers no longer ask, “Is it a boy or a girl,” but, “is it normal doctor?” We have poisoned two entire countries
Posted by truthcat on Aug 26, 2005 at 9:20 AM
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ned;=&q=leuren+moret&btnmeta;=search=search=Search+the+Web
http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com/id432.html
You won’t find this material on MSM.
Thank God for the Internet.
Bests,
John
vpocv@comcast.net
Posted by johnmccarthy on Aug 26, 2005 at 10:10 AM
Here’s an idea. Let’s everyone send this article on DU damage to our troops to Bill OReily at Fox News. If enough of us clog his in-box maybe he’ll take time to read it. It might also help some if we were to drop some GOP names…
SD Jayne
Posted by stanleyjayne on Aug 26, 2005 at 10:21 AM
A chilling flash animation on DU by BushFlash.com: http://www.bushflash.com/pl_lo.html
Posted by Vision4America on Aug 26, 2005 at 10:28 AM
This quote from another thread on ITT is so apt I had to repeat it:
“The U.S. never was bothered by Saddam’s atrocities when he was a pawn in America’s MidEast strategy, but when he took an independent course, that is when all the rhetoric about his atrocities and suppression began to surface. The U.S. took Saddam out because he was no longer serving America’s interests. The Bush administration acted out of its own selfishness, the rhetoric about freedom and democracy was just the conveneient cover story to give to the American people. “
Posted by Liberal on August 24, 2005 at 1:33 PM
http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/2291/
What is shameful is the fate of all who suffer, and who will suffer, from warfare poison. It is shameful for military authorities to willfully use these poisons anywhere on God’s green earth. Children of the future are already paying a terrible price.
Posted by pick of the litter on Aug 26, 2005 at 11:44 AM
Thank you ITT for covering this story. I watched a segment recently about recent Iraq veterans and the treatment (or lack of treatment) they receive is appalling. The media needs to be covering the atrocious effects of the war, on U.S. service veterans and Iraqis alike, more thoroughly and graphically instead of playing cheerleaders for death.
Posted by pick of the litter on Aug 26, 2005 at 11:54 AM
Somehow or other the “evidence” of Saddam gassing his own people has met the same standards as him having WMD. The Pix of dead woman and children DOES NOT SHOW HOW THEY DIED.
Saddam was no where near as bad as Idi Amin and Pinochet, and Negroponte for that matter.
Bests,
John McCarthy
vpocv@comcast.net
http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com
Update link in left colum at top of home page.
Posted by johnmccarthy on Aug 26, 2005 at 12:08 PM
Many, many people care about the horror of war and the horror perpetrated by the Bush administration. They talk to us when we demonstrate against the war. Rage, grieve, reason, but do not despair. Above all act!
Posted by ninaklooster on Aug 26, 2005 at 1:01 PM
There is no forseeable end to US policy, domestic as well as international. We’ve intervened and used depleted uranium liberally in former Yugoslavia and Iraq, and we’re now looking down our sights at Iran and Syria.
You’ll find some clues as to why Iran is our next target, here:
Killing the dollar in Iran
http://tinyurl.com/8q95q
The US is a cornered nation. The Administration is scared. Israel acts as our alarm clock, since it depends on our support for its survival. Our economy is virtually on the brink.
If we the aware and vigilant do not voice our opinions as never before, we will bear reponsible for having been accomplices to war crimes.
Posted by aleanor on Aug 26, 2005 at 2:14 PM
Countless website forums point out the crimes against peace and crimes against humanity, all established as WAR CRIMES by the US led International War Crimes Trial held in Nuremberg in 1946. We hanged folks for the same crimes Bush is perping on the Arab Nations. How much more can those 55 million people take before they sucker us in for the final treatment. We have ruined their civilization in Iraq. DU has a half life of 4.5 billion years. hooray for Bush, Cheney and the rogue bunch of Constitutional rapers.
Bests,
John
http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com
vpocv@comcast.net
Posted by johnmccarthy on Aug 26, 2005 at 2:39 PM
Dear Gerard Matthew,
Why don’t you go down to Crawford, Texas, and stand with Cindy Sheehan—and demand answers from bush about WHY DU is being used in Iraq? And why veteran’s babies are being born deformed? And why vetran’s wives are coming down with mysterious ailments after their precious husbands come home from the war zone? And WHY is Iraq being transformed into a genocidal wasteland, with a slow radiation-poisoning death being decreed for a vast number of civilians? (As well as for our own troops??)
You have standing, and the right to demand answers, especially with your adorable daughter’s health problems.
It is appalling how the mass media ignores DU, and how few Americans understand DU, or the atrocitites that are being perpetrated in our names, with everlasting consequences…
YOU have the chance to stand up now, and be a hero by helping to end this dreadful war.
Cassandra
Posted by Cassandra on Aug 26, 2005 at 4:09 PM
What is really appalling is how many lies have been spread about DU munitions. If you want to learn more about this .. go to the seven article series by a long time investigative reporter Bob Evans of the Newport News Daily Press.
From the second article of the series .. Of Rodents and Radiation - Ch 2 - From the Nose to the Brain
http://www.dailypress.com/news/specials/dp-du2,0,4684968.story?coll=dp-special-news
“The issue is chemical, not radiologic, risk,” says Melissa A. McDiarmid of the University of Maryland School of Medicine and the VA hospital in Baltimore. McDiarmid directs the government’s monitoring of Gulf War veterans with shrapnel in their bodies and has participated in other government-financed research.
McDiarmid says the tiny amount of black depleted uranium dust that a soldier could inhale several hundred feet away from an explosion is inconsequential. Even if particles are inhaled in that scenario, they wouldn’t constitute a big enough dose of radiation or toxic chemical to change lives, she says. Fifty years of research based on the experiences of workers in the uranium mining, milling and processing industries prove that scientists have good models to use to compute what is - and isn’t - a harmful dose of inhaled uranium, whether it’s depleted or not, she says.
McDiarmid thinks that we do know enough to reach the conclusion that inhaled depleted uranium isn’t a significant radiological danger. And she thinks that the failure to acknowledge this might be hurting ill veterans from the Persian Gulf War.
“What we have here is a witch hunt for an explanation,” she says, fed by the public’s fear of radiation and fanned by opponents of the weapon and ignorance of the actual science.
“The thing I’m worried about with everybody chasing depleted uranium is that we’re missing the boat,” she insists.
With so much attention on depleted uranium, other possible causes for the veterans’ illnesses go unexplored and the veterans aren’t helped.
Her most recent research paper about the veterans with shrapnel in their bodies also points to another risk of pursuing this line of inquiry into depleted uranium, known by scientists and others as “DU.”
For facts about DU from genuine experts not people who are cheerleaders against nuclear power and the war, go to the Health Physics Society www.hps.org and to their DU Fact Sheet at http://hps.org/documents/dufactsheet.pdf
Roger
Posted by Ramjet on Aug 26, 2005 at 5:49 PM
“Dr. Doug Rokke, a health physicist at the University of Illinois who headed up a Pentagon study of depleted uranium weapons in the mid ’90s after concerns were raised during the Gulf War, concluded there was no safe way to use the weapons. Rokke says the Pentagon responded by denouncing him, after earlier commending his work.”
The article makes the above claim about Douglas Lind Rokke, Phd, Education, with regards to his qualifications to claim expertise on DU. As a Lieutenant in the Army Reserve, Rokke was activated for Desert Storm and in that role was a member of a team which observed some sites with Iraqi tanks that had been hit with DU munitions. Rokke claims to have led that team, but he did not. He was not qualified. He is not a Health Physicist. He does have a Phd, but it is in Education and his dissertation was not on laboratory experiments or research on radiation or DU, but is titled “Perceived physics concepts needed to teach secondary technology
education as general education” and is on file in the University of Illinois library.
Rokke was subsequently employed as a civilian at the Army Radiation Laboratory at Fort McClellan, Alabama. He was fired from that position for failure to perform. He did not head up a study which concluded that there is no safe way to use DU munitions.
Rokke can not support the claims made on behalf of his own experience, let alone the wild claims that he has made about DU.
Roger
Posted by Ramjet on Aug 26, 2005 at 6:01 PM
Dear Roger:
Here is what it has come to: I don’t believe a single thing that you posted. I will not bother to check your links or the articles you referred to. I assume that they are all lies.
At this point, I automatically assume that anyone supporting the Bush administration and their policies is either a moron, a useful idiot, or a shill. I would categorize you as somewhere between useful idiot and shill, with the proponderance of evidence toward shill.
There has been no truth forthcoming from the Bush administration or the Pentagon. Zero. All lies and spin. Possibly you are bamboozled by it? I doubt that, which is why I gravitate towards shill in my estimate of you.
This is what happens, eventually, to liars and their supporters. Intelligent and informed people start to assume that everything they say is a lie, based on past experience. Do you like being automatically placed in the rank of liars? Get used to it.
By the way, no one who knows me or reads my writing would dream of calling me a liberal. Although I do get called other things, liberal isn’t one of them.
Posted by m_astera on Aug 26, 2005 at 9:50 PM
m-astera ..
Nothing like burning the book before even reading the cover. The anti-DU movement is not anti-Bush; it has just co-opted the anti-Bush people. I am not pro-Bush either, but I do not believe in spreading lies that are costing American lives.
I am not used to being in the rank of liars .. I expose liars, so you get used to it.
Roger
Posted by Ramjet on Aug 26, 2005 at 10:22 PM
Quote: “I do not believe in spreading lies that are costing
American lives.”
Interesting. Would you care to explain how posting information on uranium poisoning is costing American lives?
Posted by m_astera on Aug 26, 2005 at 10:32 PM
The Government has not been caring for vets exposed to uranium for a long time. A Titan missle was blown on the pad in December 1975 on Johnston Atoll. Every day the levels of uranium are measured on the island. Persons who served on the island have not been included as of yet in any study or work on depleted uranium. Persons who served on Johnston Atoll need to be included in any studies and compensation.
Posted by michaelvet on Aug 26, 2005 at 10:44 PM
Ditto from Rabbit, Roger.
Like I said, the troops have measured positive to high radiation, the babies are being born deformed and the background radiation levels can and have been measured.
Any theorising by you is past the point of relevance, you nincompoop. Go back to denying Agent Orange, stooges, you havn’t convinced anyone that didn’t happen yet.
Posted by Rabbitvoz on Aug 26, 2005 at 10:49 PM
The ONLY reason the US and Great Britain use DU is because of its mental hardening properties and the fact that DU is free. Titanium will do the same thing that DU does to harden metal and strengthen its penetrating properties—but we would have to pay for titanium in making our munitions. Australia signed off the DU wagon train a while back. So it’s just us and the Brits!
W told the only truth he’s ever told. There are WMD’s in Iraq and we brought them with us!
Posted by Soonerlib on Aug 26, 2005 at 10:49 PM
m_astera
If Roger posted the sentence “The sky is blue”, would you agree?
He is talking about DU and you are talking about presidential policies.
DU has been used by alot more presidents than just Bush. I doubt that Bush knows much about DU, it is something the military has developed when they switched from using tungsten.
Sorry I brought up the word tungsten.
Posted by jsong123 on Aug 26, 2005 at 11:02 PM
When the Pentagon actively resists proper testing of troops for what are at the very least legitimate concerns, a stooge like Roger thinks it’s OK and yet he talks about supporting the troops. Why can’t you lamebrained, truth ducking American goons call a spade a spade. When you say support the troops what you really mean is support the war. You allowed those troops to attack a sovereign nation based upon proven lies. You have no doubt argued for each of the replacement lies in turn as they have been announced with the usual absolute certainty in each their turn as the previous lies unravelled. You are doing it again, which is why nobody who matters any more takes you seriously. Whether or not you join is not important. You should be shackled to the consequences of your denial when the bell tolls for the Beasts in the whitehouse. You and all those who would support any of the evil acts of an utterly insane leadership on the brink of trashing the planet for everybody.
That’s what bugs me about you Roger, when that time comes and it is fast approaching, you and all your type will scuttle away and be lost to us when it comes time for justice. Mark these people well friends, make lists of the ones you know. If only we could get them to tattoo themselves with some permanent mark. Perhaps if Bush or Condi could come up with “Freedom Tattoos” to help show all those peace loving extremists what’s what. We’d net a fair percentage of the clowns and we could keep track of them with their own security network when people rule their own destinies again.
Posted by Rabbitvoz on Aug 26, 2005 at 11:06 PM
The chemical toxicity of inhaled uranium trioxide (uranyl oxide) gas vapor fumes is much worse—about a million times worse—than the radiation from inhalation of any of the other oxides. The armed forces sadly missed the fact that about 1/5th of uranium which burns in air produces UO3 gas vapor instead of the dusts from the other oxides which are obvious. The UO3(g) vapor does not settle out of the atmosphere; instead, it disperses as an invisible, odorless cloud, and is absorbed into the bloodstream almost immedately when it is inhaled. The details are in one of my NRC petitions here:
http://www.bovik.org/du/du-petition.html
If we have any hope for a solution to this problem, we must ask the following of the U.S. government:
1. Please submit a public comment asking that the NRC take uranium’s chemical toxicity into account when setting acceptable inhalaton and ingestion limits for soluble uranium compounds. You can do this on the web by reading the NRC rulemaking petition and following the comment instructions here:
http://ruleforum.llnl.gov/cgi-bin/rulemake?source=PRM_2026&st=petitions-a
Comments must be received by August 29, 2005.
2. The CDC’s Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry (ATSDR) should cite the reproductive chemical toxicity
of uranium in their toxicology publications. The teratogenicity
of uranium has been known for more than half a century, and is
well-documented, along with uranium’s developmental toxicity, in
several peer-reviewed medical and scientific publications, but
no mention of it can be found in ATSDR publications.
3. The Army and other pyrophoric uranium munitions NRC licensees
should admit the quantity of UO3(g) vapor produced by such
weapons, from the results of their own emperical observation.
4. The Navy’s DoD Birth and Infant Health Registry should, in
their epidemiological studies, measure the congenital
malformation incidence rate of exposed 1991 Operation Desert
Storm veterans, instead of avoiding any study of them as a class
in their recent draft Annual Reports, e.g.:
http://www.bovik.org/du/mscusn/BIHR_annual_report_1998.pdf
http://www.bovik.org/du/mscusn/BIHR_annual_report_1999.pdf
http://www.bovik.org/du/mscusn/BIHR_annual_report_2000.pdf
This is especially important because published studies of that
same epidemiological category upon which DoD BIHR scientists
have publicly commented indicate that the class has
significant and substantial increases in their birth defect
incidence rate, which is apparently increasing over time:
http://www.bovik.org/du/mscusn/BD_Infants_GWV_AR_AZ_CA_GA_HI_IA_1989-1993.pdf
5. The Army should admit that if UO3 forms from U oxides UO2
through U3O8 by weathering, then the uranyl ions are likely to
mobilize and wash away into the water table simultaneously, and
so they should begin testing the water table in sites such as
Jefferson Proving Ground, Indiana, Vieques, Puerto Rico, and
Basrah, Iraq to see if they can find out what happened to the
missing UO3 which their chemists have been expecting.
Sincerely,
James Salsman
Posted by jsalsman on Aug 26, 2005 at 11:14 PM
You all have have missinterpretaded my strategery for using delapidated uranium in our current march to freedom in Iraq. You see, it’s part of my current energy plan, for conserving our energy, during our current energy crisis… uh… I mean fiasco. When our troops return home from being eratiated when exposed to delapitated uranium they bring all that energy with them, and when it gets dark at night, you don’t have to use electric lights, cause your body will glow in the dark. It also saves hospitals from having to using x-ray equipment, which uses lots of them energies I was talking about ealier.
Posted by GWBush on Aug 27, 2005 at 2:21 AM
This is a long digression from the subject of DU exposure so I will make it a separate comment.
Michaelvet changes the subject by what apparently is his personal experience at Johnston Island where two nuclear armed Thor missiles blew up on the launch pad in 1962. The Plutonium (not Uranium) contamination was cleaned up within the past 5 years and Johnson Atoll is now a bird sanctuary. If Michael believes he has ill effects from exposure to Plutonium, he should see the VA.
More about the Plutonium contamination of Johnson Atoll is found at
http://www.kahea.org/lcr/pdf/JohnstonHawaii5-11.pdf which is to prepare the public for a pre-cleanup meeting in Hawaii.
The Defense Threat Reduction Agency (DTRA) and its legacy organizations have been responsible for the cleanup of radioactive contamination on Johnston Atoll from two aborted missile launches in 1962. DTRA legacy organizations began cleanup of the atoll immediately to resume testing activities. Plutonium oxide and americium, a decay product of plutonium, were the contaminants of concern. Early efforts included the establishment of a fenced, 24-acre Radiological Control Area on Johnston Island for consolidating contaminated material found throughout the atoll during radiological surveys.
http://www.dtra.mil/press_resources/fact_sheets/fs_includes/ja.cfm not only contains the above but explains how the contamination has been contained and Johnson Atoll closed.
http://www.dtra.mil/about/media/historical_documents/environmental/decision.cfm gives more a more in-depth description of the accidents and remediation procedures.
http://www.vic-info.org/RegionsTop.nsf/0/1bc2b18b269be3888a256a500082dd6e?OpenDocument
confirms that the Atoll is now a bird sanctuary
3. Discussion: Johnston Atoll is the site of widely divergent activities by the U.S. Government. As a National Wildlife Refuge, the area is a habitat for seabirds, shorebirds. In the 1960’s, the U.S. established the site as an above ground atmospheric nuclear and missile testing range; of significance was the launch failure of two Thor missiles—one scattered plutonium on the island and nearby reef in 1962. Since that time, DTRA was responsible for the plutonium clean-up project on the Atoll and recently completed its efforts by building a landfill that reduces the levels of radiation on all areas of the island to acceptable levels. With the recent departure of all military personnel from the island, Johnston Atoll, once again, returns to its original designation as National Wildlife Refuge. It is a refuge with an isolated airfield, strong historical ties to the military, and is 579 acres larger than its original size in 1923—but a refuge nonetheless.
Roger
Posted by Ramjet on Aug 27, 2005 at 3:45 AM
m_astera asked
Quote: “I do not believe in spreading lies that are costing American lives.”
Interesting. Would you care to explain how posting information on uranium poisoning is costing American lives?
Simple, when the information is not true and it is used to recruit suicide bombers. If I thought that another country had deliberately spread a terrible poison on my country, I would give my life to fight that other country. Lies spread by American anti-DU activists like Rokke spread all over the world at lightning speed. I would be surprised if Al Jazeera and radical Islamist sites do not already have this article posted.
Roger
Posted by Ramjet on Aug 27, 2005 at 3:47 AM
Roger wrote, “If I thought that another country had deliberately spread a terrible poison on my country, I would give my life to fight that other country.”
What would you do if your country did it and you couldn’t figure out whether it was accidental or deliberate?
Posted by jsalsman on Aug 27, 2005 at 5:30 AM
“Roger” from “Ramjet” is either a government disinformation agent or just an ignorant rightwing antagonist, as should be evident from his unwillingness to give his identity and address.
In fact, Dr. Douglas Rokke, who holds the rank of captain, not lieutenant as stated by “Roger”, not only headed up the DU project, which included test explosions of DU weapons in the Nevada desert, and not only is described in U of Ill. literature as a “health physicist”, he received a letter of commendation from Gen, Shinseki.
On Dec. 3, 1995, On June 30, 1995, a letter of recommendation for the Army
Commendation medal and the Meritorious service medal described his title as “the depleted uranium project manager.”
His “Achievement no. 1, was: “Researched, identified, and
staffed radiological research data requirements for the live fire test.”
Achievement No. 2 was: “Participated in live fire lethality test as a radiological and battle damage assessment analysts.”
Achievement No. 3 was: “Performed research and data collection duties under hazardous conditions.”
Achievement No. 4 was: “Provided exceptional technical assistance and guidance to all team members during all test phase [sic].”
The letter continued: “Your performance of
duty reflects great credit upon yourself and the United States Army.”
“Roger” should either identify himself and lay out his evidence concretely, or he should go back under his rock.
Dave Lindorff, author of the above article
dlindorff@yahoo.com
www.thiscantbehappening.net
Posted by dlindorff on Aug 27, 2005 at 6:21 AM
Addemdum,
The cowardly “Roger” would appear to be one Lt Colonel Roger Helbig, United States Air Force, whom Dr. Rokke says works at the Pentagon and has been regularly attacking him. This is, in other words, most likely an official—if hidden—effort by the Pentagon and the White House to try to keep the DU story from gaining mainstream traction. As Rokke says, “He is one more of those associated with the Pentagon who must attack in order to susatain dU use and avoid all liability for its illegal
use.
Given his position and his deception about it, I think the veracity of his trumped up charges regarding Dr. Rokke should be accorded the same credibility as the president’s claim of WMDs in Iraq: ie, it’s a bunch of crap.
Dave Lindorff
author of the above story
dlindorff@yahoo.com
www.thiscantbehappening.net
Posted by dlindorff on Aug 27, 2005 at 6:31 AM
Good job dlindorff and jsalsman. It is good to see an author stand up for his article and refute deliberate misinformation. (I am checking our your site.)
How can we let the truth be hijacked by gov’t hacks afraid of “suicide bombers”? Like telling the truth would encourage murder? Good God! Maybe if the military would not engage in so much deception and poison the world would see less revenge.
Posted by pick of the litter on Aug 27, 2005 at 6:53 AM
Ah, Yes, Tungsten. Sort of expensive. And it is/was an alternative to DU, but DU is Free and while we use it to harden munitions and make airplane wings stronger it saves us from having to dispose of it.
During WWII, the good folks at the Manhatten Project wrote that DU was classified as an area deniability weapon and could be used as a backup if the atomic bomb failed to function as designed. THE US GOVERNMENT KNEW IN 1943 THAT DU WAS A WEAPON OF MASS DESTRUCTION.
Any one who does not think so deserves a tour of Iraq, breathe the wonderful air, drink the water, eat the plants…..then come back to the States and provide us with offspring that have no deformities.
http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com/id245.html
Have a nice day!
Bests,
John McCarthy
http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com
vpocv@comcast.net
Posted by johnmccarthy on Aug 27, 2005 at 7:49 AM
DU is a backup for the atomic bomb? How would that work; if the atomic bomb did not explode then we would drop DU on the enemy and it would do what?
Posted by jsong123 on Aug 27, 2005 at 8:20 AM
jsong, try any of this on for size and get back to me with your opine.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ned;=&q=leuren+moret&btnmeta;=search=search=Search+the+Web
Bests,
John McCarthy
http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com
vpocv@comcast.net
Posted by johnmccarthy on Aug 27, 2005 at 8:27 AM
The following post is MAJOR (NOT LIEUTENANT!) Dr. Doug Rokke’s response to the disinformation being spread by the Pentagon about him courtesy of the above “Roger” of “Ramjet”.
Depleted Uranium Situation Requires Action
By President Bush and Prime Minister Blair
posted by Dr. Doug Rokke, Ph.D.
August 27, 2005
David Lindorff has writen a very good article on DU. This article resulted
in renewed personal attacks against me by LTC Roger Helbig, USAF, who has been
spearhesding efforts to sustain DU use and ensure DOD officials are not help
responsible for using weapons of mass destruction - dirty bombs against
civilian polulations and miltary targets. The issue here is whether or not DOD
officials will provide mandated medical care for DU casualties and clean up
environmental contamination. Why is LTC Helbig refusing to help me / us ensure that
DOD officials comply with regulatory requirements? Could it be that he
believes that DOD officials are exempt from compliance with their own regulations?
I am tired of the personal attacks because I have attempted for years
to ensure that DOD and now British, and NATO officials provide medical care
to all DU casualties and that they clean up all contamination where they have
manufactured, tested, or used DU munitions.
Specifically section 2-4 of United States Army Regulation-AR 700-48 dated
September 16, 2002 requires that:
(1) “Military personnel “identify, segregate, isolate, secure, and label all
RCE” (radiologically contaminated equipment).
(2) “Procedures to minimize the spread of radioactivity will be implemented
as soon as possible.”
(3) “Radioactive material and waste will not be locally disposed of through
burial, submersion, incineration, destruction in place, or abandonment” and
(4) “All equipment, to include captured or combat RCE, will be surveyed,
packaged, retrograded, decontaminated and released IAW Technical Bulletin
9-1300-278, DA PAM 700-48” (Note: Maximum exposure limits are specified in Appendix F).
The past and current use of uranium weapons, the release of radioactive
components in destroyed U.S. and foreign military equipment, and releases of
industrial, medical, research facility radioactive materials have resulted in
unacceptable exposures.
The extent of adverse health and
environmental effects of uranium weapons
contamination is not limited to combat zones but includes facilities and
sites where uranium weapons were manufactured or tested including Vieques, Puerto
Rico, Colonie, New York, and Jefferson Proving Grounds, Indiana. Therefore
medical care must be provided by the United States Department of Defense
officials to all individuals affected by the manufacturing, testing, and/or use of
uranium munitions.
I am amazed that fourteen years after was asked to clean
up the initial DU mess from Gulf War 1 and almost ten years since I finished
the depleted uranium project that United States Department of Defense officials
and mauy others still attempt to justify uranium munitions use while ignoring
mandatory requirements.
Finally continued compliance with the infamous March 1991 Los Alamos Memorandum
(http://www.tv.cbc.ca/national/pgminfo/du/doc1.html) that was issued to ensure
continued use of uranium munitions can not be justified.
In conclusion: the President of the United States- George W. Bush and
The Prime Minister of Great Britain-Tony Blair must acknowledge and accept
responsibility for willful use of illegal uranium munitions- their own
“dirty bombs”- resulting in adverse health and environmental effects.
References-
http://www.traprockpeace.org/twomemos.html
http://www.traprockpeace.org/rokke_du_3_ques.html
http://www.traprockpeace.org/du_dtic_wakayama_Aug2002.html
Posted by dlindorff on Aug 27, 2005 at 8:29 AM
John McCarthy
Based on your answer to my question, I now understand the situation, i.e. you don’t know how DU could be used as a backup for the atomic bomb.
Posted by jsong123 on Aug 27, 2005 at 8:40 AM
Yoh!
Ramjet henceforth A.K.A. “Willful Ignorance”
Please return to top of Thread.
And review.
Then try and Sell your crap to “Gerard Matthew”
Then return your head into the bucket of sand
Posted by Eadora on Aug 27, 2005 at 9:10 AM
jsong,
you took 13 minutes to peruse ALL the DU articles on ALL the pages…..you are one fast reader and must be applying as a disinformation specialist.
You are out of your league, son.
Not so Bests,
John McCarthy
Posted by johnmccarthy on Aug 27, 2005 at 10:37 AM
I don’t see any reason to “peruse ALL the DU articles on ALL the pages”, as you seem to want me to.
You stated that DU could be used as a backup for an atomic weapon, and I asked you how that would work.
Obviously you don’t know what you are talking about.
You could tell me how DU can be used as a backup to an atomic weapon, if you know. If you don’t know don’t worry, and don’t call me names.
Posted by jsong123 on Aug 27, 2005 at 10:46 AM
Jsong,
As Gilda Radner would say: “Never mind”.
Intercourse; the art of communicating…..lost on some poor souls who don’t want to be confused with the facts as their minds are already made up. Oh, well….bye bye
Posted by johnmccarthy on Aug 27, 2005 at 10:53 AM
Is it a needless tragedy that innocent children are suffering the effects of depleted uranium? Obviously that question is a no-brainer…but I wonder why there doesn’t seem to be very much concern for the innocent Iraqi or Afghani children who are not just ‘exposed’ to depleted uranium…they have to live with it forever…along with their children for thousands of generations. So who is really the war criminal that is currently using weapons of mass destruction?
Posted by brianetilley on Aug 27, 2005 at 11:33 AM
brianetilley,
This page of my site answers part of your question.
http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com/id245.html
Bests,
John McCarthy
http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com
vpocv@comcast.net
Posted by johnmccarthy on Aug 27, 2005 at 12:41 PM
Jsong:
Do you understand what a “dirty bomb” is?
That is how uranium/plutonium contamination can be used for “area deniability” and long term damage. At the time of the Manhattan project, they did not really know if atomic weapons would explode, but they knew that the bomb would at least blow up (because of the TNT charge) and scatter radioactive particles over a wide area.
Apologies to John McCarthy, I just couldn’t stand it. : )
Interestingly, there is a school of thought that claims atomic bombs DO NOT work, that the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were actually just enormous TNT firebombs that were laced with radioactives. I won’t argue pro or con on that, but it is certainly an interesting idea, and would explain why we haven’t had any use of nuclear bombs since, although the military has certainly used every other damn weapon they’ve ever come up with.
Posted by m_astera on Aug 27, 2005 at 12:51 PM
m_astera,
Cudos!
As a point of interest, the 20,000 feet of color film taken in Nagasaki and Hiroshima was classified Top Secret from 1945 until sometime in the ninties, when it was declassified and placed in a filing cabinet per directions of the Atomic Energy Commission. Only 16 minutes of the original film were aired earlier this month on cable networks Sundance Channel in a one hour program. The rest remain “to horrible” for the American public to view, because they might object to newer weapons being tested in the fifties and sixties that were thousands of times more powerful.
Interesting note: The Hiroshima bomb, 12-15 kilo ton (they are not sure, just as they don’t know why the proposed 8 megton bomb detonated in the Pacific in the early fifities went off at 13 megaton with disastrous results) was detonated by a barometric device 5000 feet above the city and called a ‘clean’ bomb because it did not place radiated earth into the atmosphere…..nasty business, eh?
Thanks!
Bests,
John McCarthy
http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com
vpocv@comcast.net
Posted by johnmccarthy on Aug 27, 2005 at 1:01 PM
Do you understand what a
Posted by jsong123 on Aug 27, 2005 at 1:21 PM
I’m no scientist, certainly, but I have read several articles about DU that seem pretty authoritative and conclusive. Basically, DU is not a significant danger chemically (heavy metal poisoning) and even less radioactively.
It makes a lot of sense for scare mongers to latch on to the uranium and ignore depleted. Uranium = highly radioactive in most people’s minds. Similarly, hysterics over irradiated foods are fueled by the notion that they are being somehow “radioactivated”, or turned into some kind of dangerous mutation.
Not to say that we shouldn’t always be on the lookout for health threats, but consider the fact that DU enables our military to be better protected by superior armor plating, and better armed with more effective weapons than their opponents. This surely saves hundeds of lives and must be weighed against any possible health threats from DU.
Genetically modified foods, chemical fertilizers and effective pesticides enable us to feed millions of people that otherwise would starve.
DDT was banned amidst vastly overblown reports of toxicity. Now millions die of malaria that might have otherwise lived.
Don’t get me wrong. I’m as concerned with genuine health risks as the next person. But I’m also concerned when hysterical unfounded pseudo-science ends up generating the precise opposite of it’s stated intent. Costing, instead of saving lives.
Posted by Natalie on Aug 27, 2005 at 4:03 PM
Hello Natalie,
I am no scientist either. But Leuren Moret is.
Google her name please.
http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com/id155.html
Bests,
John McCarthy
http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com/
Posted by johnmccarthy on Aug 27, 2005 at 4:23 PM
Yoh! Natalie
Please be INFORMED! Do just a little honest research outside the boundaries of your own political bias and preconceptions.
http://omega.twoday.net/stories/521143
http://www.dissidentvoice.org/July2004/Moret0721.htm
Depleted Uranium is 70% as radioactive as the purified variety.
It is nasty deadly stuff.
When will you people cease being “Willfully Ignorant” and deal with the FACTS.
Or go make yourself a DU sandwich.
Posted by Eadora on Aug 27, 2005 at 5:18 PM
Well, Natalie, I’m sorry that others here have been rude to you, but before you make up your mind about DU, please read this article from the U.S. Armed Forces Radiobiology Institute published in the peer-reviewed medical literature:
A.C. Miller, et al., “Depleted uranium-catalyzed oxidative DNA damage: absence of significant alpha particle decay,” Journal of Inorganic Biochemistry, vol. 91 (2002), pp. 246
Posted by jsalsman on Aug 27, 2005 at 5:31 PM
To All of the
Posted by Eadora on Aug 27, 2005 at 5:46 PM
Why, Thank you Eadora!
“It is dangerous to be right when your government is wrong”. Voltaire
“One can ignore the facts but one cannot change the facts.” Author Unknown
Bests,
John McCarthy
http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com
vpocv@comcast.net
vpocv@hotmail.com —google this addy for 500 plus pages!
Posted by johnmccarthy on Aug 27, 2005 at 6:07 PM
Roger? OH, Roger where have you gone? Well done Dlindorf for calling that one. It seems you were right about Col Ramjet, he was too stupid to realise that he was not being taken seriously but naming the prick must have come as a shock for him.
Excuse me Natalie if Rabbit is wrong here but the timing of your appearance and something about the tone suggests a possible alter ego of the Roger Ramjet. I can just picture this Helbig dressing up in a skirt while he plays the Natalie role, not that it is entirely necessary, but he enjoys it more that way. We’ll soon see, because the truth and science about all this is not hard to understand actually so don’t let anyone claim otherwise. Rabbit has quite good Physics and Chemistry background and is an experienced pyrotechnic chemist in particular.
m-astera interesting thought, do you have any source for the Atom bomb doubts?.
jsong shouldn’t be fed. Whatever he is, he is not someone who knows or wants to know anything. Even Roger had more going for him, at least he made an effort to be convincing. What these disinformation types fail to understand is how the Internet is complete anathema to their efforts. Never before was so much effort applied for so little result, it must really be bugging them. I wish they could comprehend how deep the contempt we feel when we recognise their cowardice and stupidity.
Now Natalie, if you are not just The Ramjet Colonel in a dress, read the links given above and don’t be afraid of being bamboozled. Liars always try to bamboozle people when it comes to science. As a rule of thumb, if the simple scientific explanation sounds too complicated to understand for the layman then either the person explaning doesn’t understand it himself or the person is deliberately trying to bamboozle you because he’s lying.
Rabbit has Occupational Health and Safety qualifications as well and the dangers of Radioactivity are well documented. Not only must people wear special protective clothing when hadling DU they should be monitored for excessive exposure on a daily basis. If DU was safe to be blown/burnt into powder and gas why is depleted uranium such a serious waste disposal problem? Do any of you naysayers want to explain why it would otherwise be encased in lead and concrete the either stored or buried somewhere to be left undisturbed for, well basically forever.? Any ideas? Heh, why don’t we use it to make bridges? or tools? if it is as safe as you’d like to think, why is it that no community anywhere wants any dumped near them and for that matter most countries want someone else to take it off their hands. They’ll pay whatever it costs to get rid of the stuff.
Posted by Rabbitvoz on Aug 27, 2005 at 6:16 PM
For chrissakes! This banter is utterly ridiculous. Were talking about depleted URANIUM, people!! How, the hell, can ANYONE even think that this crap could be “harmless?” The DDT comparison was absolutely hee-larious, it’s like apples and oranges! One comes from nuclear fuel processing, the other… well, never mind. We’re spraying this radioactive, deadly crap like it’s mosquito repellent.
Tell you what: I’ll be happy to play Devil’s advocate and just assume this stuff is as toxic as Play-doh. But, let’s have the Pentagon actually, you know - TEST IT to prove it once and for all.
Think there’s a reason they’ve been loathe to do any “field tests?” Gee, I wonder…
Posted by g-love on Aug 27, 2005 at 7:40 PM
Serve FREE D.U. sandwiches in the Pentagon Cafaterias. See how many takers you get.
“Radiation in Iraq Equals 250,000 Nagasaki Bombs”
http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Mar04/Nichols0327.htm
INSANITY SEEMS TO BE ON A ROLL WITHIN THE DEFENCE DEPT.
Posted by Eadora on Aug 27, 2005 at 8:29 PM
“Bob Nichols is a contributing writer for LiberalSlant, Democratic Underground, OnlineJournal, AmericaHeldHostage, and other online dot com publications.”
Give me a break. I’m trying to keep an open mind on this DU stuff, but can we please exclude OBVIOUSLY biased emotional sources like this?
And then somebody doesn’t even understand that the reference to DDT is meant to illustrate how scare-science can trump real science, not to compare its radiation footprint.
I could refer you to reams of evidence about a serious relationship developing between Hussein and bin Laden. I might as well be claiming the moon is made of cheese.
But you expect me to take as gospel all these claims like “250,000 Nagasaki bombs?
There’s plenty of testing that’s been done, and it’s not presented alongside doctored pictures of mutated babies and skull and cross-bones watermarks.
****************
Final statement and recommendations:
Having comprehensively reviewed and cross-examined most of the specialized scientific literature, in particular the medical literature, judged reliable and trustworthy,
Having in mind the results provided by the medical observation over decades of workers of the uranium industry as well as by the experiments with animals,
Taking into account the results of the recent investigations in Iraq and in the Balkans of the effects on man and on the environment following the use of DU, the report concludes that the use of DU-ammunition in Iraq and the Balkans neither has led to a serious widespread contamination of the environment nor represents an acute or appreciable long-term hazard for man’s health.
http://www.europarl.eu.int/stoa/publi/pdf/stoa100_en.pdf
**************
Summary
The current sound medical-scientific evidence provides no evidence to show that a person having external or internal exposure to depleted uranium at any realistic level will develop an illness caused by depleted uranium.
The estimates of depleted uranium intake, chemical dose, and radiation dose calculated by the US DoD (OSAGWI, 2000) for Level II and III participants indicate those veterans experienced air concentrations well below the short-term exposure limits. These estimates are far below any relevant US Federal or industrial guideline for chemical or radiation exposure (OSAGWI, 2000). The toxicology of uranium has been examined in Section Five and the Expert Committee has concluded that harmful medical effects from depleted uranium exposure for Level II or III personnel are not supported by the current sound medical-scientific evidence.
Recent risk assessments by the Royal Society show that while studies of large cohorts of veterans are vitally important to explore and understand the experiences and exposures which may effect the health status of veterans, in the case of exposure to depleted uranium most would have had only very low or negligible exposure. Even during the Gulf War only a very small fraction of the troops present would have received measurable exposure to depleted uranium and based on our current knowledge of uranium toxicity the risk is below measurable levels. Even for their worst case estimates the risk was still so low that no observable increase in lung cancer (or other cancer) mortality would be seen in a cohort of 10,000 veterans followed for 50 years (Royal Society, 2001).
http://www.aph.gov.au/Senate/committee/fadt_ctte/estimates/add_0203/def/ans-dva-q34-att-feb03.doc
(two of many…..4000 word limit you know)
Posted by Natalie on Aug 27, 2005 at 9:34 PM
Natalie,
I admire your guts, taking on these scientific illiterate bullies .. look forward to direct communication. I can not keep up with the fallout that my initial comments generated and have been off the computer most of the day.
Roger
The Bob Nichols articles make such outlandish claims, as has Leuren Moret in her testimony in the Kangaroo Court in Japan which according to the International Court in the Hague had no connection or jurisdiction.
Nichols called Moret an emminent scientist. I expected to find someone with the credentials of a modern Madame Curie and instead found that Moret according to her bio
earned her B.S. in Geology at U.C. Davis in 1968, (my B.A. in Geological Sciences from SUNY at Buffalo was in 1969) and her M.A.
in Near Eastern Studies from U.C. Berkeley in 1978. She has completed all but her dissertation for a PhD. in the Geosciences at U.C. Davis
(Actually, Moret dropped out of the UC Davis Geology Phd program .. the Department declined to say nothing more than that she is no longer a candidate for the degree)
Moret then worked at Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory and Lawrence Livermore Laboratory. What she does not say is what she did there .. she gives the impression that she was a “scientist” and more than likely she actually was a lab tech or even some type of administrative assistant. The fact that her Masters is not in a scientific discipline tends one to think that Moret was not a “scientist”
Posted by Ramjet on Aug 28, 2005 at 1:14 AM
What I find frightening is that this government has done this horrible, thing to our own solders. I heard about this on the radio a few years ago and did not believe! I belieeve now and lets get it to the media. There is so much that we have to speak out for! People tell the world the truth about this government!I heard a couple of years ago about the buletts that had uraniun in the tips. This is our government hurting our Children! This is our government hurting people!
Posted by noma on Aug 28, 2005 at 2:04 AM
NOMA is very angry, sorry for spelling errors. The radioactive properties in the tips of bullets is wrong. The media needs to look into this.
Posted by noma on Aug 28, 2005 at 2:17 AM
What really is frightening is that the anti-depleted uranium activists like Leuren Moret and Doug Rokke have done their best to scare the daylights out of you. Depleted uranium is not benign, but it also has caused no birth defects and has not created clouds swirling around the earth nor is the radiation level in Baghdad such that it is like taking a chest X-ray every two hours. Unfortunately, you need to do a little research beyond the typical far out sources and learn the facts. I provided references and the next poster, an apparently committed activist said she would not read them. The references were not government sources but included a respected investigative reporter who made an effort to learn what DU was and was not and the Health Physics Society.
I do have other things to do and responding to dozens of like claims of horror by Rabbitvoz (who does not have the courage to sign his real name yet has been kind enough to provide you mine), m_astera, etc. is not one of them. Read the Bob Evans’s articles .. learn the facts - he is a reporter, not an activist with an axe to grind.
http://www.dailypress.com/news/specials/dp-du2,0,4684968.sto ory?coll=dp-special-news
Posted by Ramjet on Aug 28, 2005 at 2:26 AM
http://hps.org/publicinformation/radterms/
Know what you are talking about, a lengthy list of radiation terms and their definitions is located here .. there also is a link to a number of fact sheets, including one on radiation and pregnancy.
Posted by Ramjet on Aug 28, 2005 at 2:51 AM
http://hps.org/publicinformation/ate/cat57.html
List of Ask the Expert Questions and Replies pertaining to Uranium at the Health Physics Society website .. a good place to learn from the experts, not the activists.
Posted by Ramjet on Aug 28, 2005 at 3:04 AM
Answer to Question #626 Submitted to “Ask the Experts”
Category: Uranium
The following question was answered by an expert in the appropriate field:
Q: I intend to travel shortly to Yugoslavia to visit my parents who live outside a city that was bombed by NATO. In view of the latest scare about depleted uranium munitions that NATO used in the area I intend to bring them a portable Geiger counter so that they can check the area around their house and food that they buy on the market. Would you advise such a measure and what should they do if they register radiation higher than usual?
A: Your parents are very fortunate to have a son/daughter who is so genuinely concerned about their welfare and so thoughtful. However, both you and your parents should rest assured that they are at no risk from the depleted uranium that was used in Kosovo. There are many reasons why this is so, but the main one is that most of the depleted uranium stays very close to where the munition detonated.
If present in large enough quantities, uranium contamination of surfaces can be detected with a Geiger counter. But quantities large enough to detect would only be present on the battlefield and in the immediate area of where the munition was detonated. Since there is little or no likelihood that you would find any depleted uranium away from the actual battle site, and certainly not where your parents live, I would not recommend purchasing a Geiger counter. (Instead, as a father myself, permit me to suggest that you may wish to use the money you would have spent on a Geiger counter to purchase a very special gift for your parents.)
Some additional information about uranium may be of interest to you and you may wish to pass it on to your parents. Uranium is naturally present in small quantities in our environment, and all of us have a small amount of uranium in our bodies. Although depleted uranium is weakly radioactive, it is also a heavy metal, and chemical toxicity and not radioactivity is the primary health concern. Even its chemical toxicity is low, being approximately the same as the chemical toxicity of lead. Only a small fraction of the uranium that is swallowed—perhaps as much as five percent but more like one or two percent—is absorbed via the digestive tract. But there is no risk to your parents from the munitions used in Kosovo.
Also note that correctly interpreting Geiger counter readings requires specialized knowledge and skill. All Geiger counters will give readings from the naturally occurring background radiations, and these readings have quite a bit of normal variability. One must thus be able to separate out the large background radiation that results from cosmic rays, natural radioactivity in the soil, buildings, certain foods, etc., from any additional contamination. The normally fluctuating background radiation is often misinterpreted as being caused by radioactive contamination by inexperienced persons.
Enjoy your trip to Yugoslavia and your visit with your parents. None of you has any reason to be concerned about hazards from depleted uranium.
Ron L. Kathren, CHP
Posted by Ramjet on Aug 28, 2005 at 3:13 AM
What is a CHP - A CHP is a Certified Health Physicist, something that Doug Rokke, Leuren Moret or Bob Nichols are not!
To become a CHP, American Board of Health Physics requires:
General Requirements for Certification
Academics. Must possess at least a bachelor’s degree from an accredited college or university in physical science, engineering, mathematics, or in a biological science with a minor in physical science, engineering, or mathematics.
Experience. An applicant must have at least six years of responsible professional experience in health physics. At least three years of the experience must have been in applied health physics. The six years of professional experience, which must be documented by an applicant for Part II of the exam, must be experience that demonstrates that the candidate has been required to exercise judgment in one, or more, of the following:
establishment and/or evaluation of a radiation protection program
design and/or the evaluation of the design of the radiation protection aspects of a facility
design and implementation of a radiation protection training course or program
development of an experimental and/or measurement program designed to answer questions related to radiation protection
evaluation of measurement data
analysis and solution of radiation protection problems
preparation, interpretation and implementation of recommendations and regulations.
At the discretion of the Board, advanced degrees in health physics or a closely related area of study may be substituted for a maximum of two years of the required experience. master’s degree one year, a doctoral degree may be substituted for two years of the required experience. Technician-level experience will in no case be acceptable as meeting the experience requirements.
References. Reference statements are required from the applicant’s supervisor and, if applying for Part II, from at least two other individuals who are professionally qualified to evaluate the applicant’s ability in health physics. It is required that at least one reference be from a health physicist already certified by the ABHP.
Written Report. Each applicant for Part II of the examination shall submit with the Application for Certification a document written by the applicant that reflects a professional health physics effort. This “effort” may be a substantive facility evaluation, a protection guidance document, a major monitoring program, or some other complex or comprehensive effort. The criteria for ABHP acceptance of this report are that it (1) be on a topic for which the ABHP tests and certifies expertise, (2) contain elements of professional judgment or application of non-regulatory protection guidance, and (3) be written solely or principally by the candidate. The Board, after examination of the application materials, may request additional such reports. All reports will be treated as confidential material. All reports submitted in fulfillment of this requirement shall be reviewed by an ABHP member. Third-party review of written reports is not acceptable.
Examination. The written examination has two parts: Part I, which can be taken early in one’s career, determines the competence of the applicant in fundamental aspects of health physics, and Part II determines his/her competence in applied health physics topics. Either part of the written examination must be taken within two years of notification of eligibility, or a new application must be submitted. After passing Part I, the applicant must pass Part II within a period of seven years, or retake both parts.
Anyone who meets the education and experience requirements and is practicing health physics in a competent and ethical manner is strongly urged to apply to the Board for admission to the written examination.
For all of you “experts” commenting on the horrors of DU who are CHPs, if you meet the requirements, please, do prepare for and take the test. It is quite rigorous.
Posted by Ramjet on Aug 28, 2005 at 3:23 AM
I note in one of the earlier responses to my posting which is documentable in a 1990 memo from Colonel Day to Captains Armstrong, Brannon and Carter, that Lieutenant Rokke is emphasizing that he is a Major ..
Lieutenant Rokke was the Army Reservist activated for service in Desert Storm, subsequent to that time, Lieutenant Rokke was apparently promoted to Captain and Major in the United States Army Reserve. Douglas Lind Rokke is not a retired Regular Army office in the grade of major, which is what Dr Rokke (who also never emphasizes that his post-Desert Storm doctorate in Education has absolutely nothing to do with Health Physics or Depleted Uranium)implies when he uses his military rank (I presume he has completed 20 years Active/Reserve service and has qualified for “gray area retirement” as an Army Reservist in the grade of Major)
The rest of the posting is a regulation that Rokke rants about not being followed .. he has been told to specifically identify by paragraph what provisions are not being followed and request an investigation by the Department of Defense Inspector General. That, however, is not conducive to further ranting or rallying his anti-DU supporters and is bad theatre, which is what Rokke’s real strength is, acting!
Posted by Ramjet on Aug 28, 2005 at 3:33 AM
Rokke seems to be the one who has chosen to use my actual name .. he has forgotten that I am not in the USAF, but like him am a retired reservist. Unlike him, I get absolutely nothing but heartache and being spat on by the anti-DU movement for opposing the lies that he has spread. He on the other hand gets to travel the world at the expense of the anti-DU movement and spout his lies. His latest lies pertain to his own safety, he asserts that he has been the target of a “hit squad” and about the attack on the Pentagon on September 11th. I guess the anti-DU crowd was not large enough of an audience and he needed to add the so-called 9/11 Truth Movement to his followers. I am surprised that Dave Lindorff has gotten taken in by Rokke as Dave has written some pretty good work in the past and is not just into the anti-DU movement as is Bob Nichols or into conspiracies in general as is Greg Syzmanski, two of Rokke’s other mouthpieces. I intend to find everything I possibly can about Rokke, Moret and Nichols. They have slandered me to the world and I will not take that.
Posted by Ramjet on Aug 28, 2005 at 3:41 AM
Answer to Question #746 Submitted to “Ask the Experts”
Category: Uranium
Q: How are bullets made by depleted uranium, and what reactions do they cause when they enter into contact with the ground and with humans?
A: Because of its very high density—nearly twice that of lead—and certain other properties, depleted uranium is used in certain kinds of munitions because of its ability to penetrate heavily armored vehicles such as tanks and armored personnel carriers. Depleted uranium (DU) is not used in small cartridges or bullets for rifles or machines guns but alloyed DU is used in the 25, 105, and 120 millimeter (mm) kinetic energy cartridges used primarily as antitank munitions. DU is also a component in some tank armor and sometimes used as a catalyst for land mine systems.
Since depleted uranium is weakly radioactive, the public has been concerned about the possiblility of adverse health effects from DU. DU is a heavy metal, and like all heavy metals such as mercury and lead, is toxic. However, except in certain very unusual situations, it is the chemical toxicity and not the radioactivity that is of concern. And, from a chemical toxicity standpoint, uranium is on the same order of toxicity as lead. Largely from work with animals along with a few instances in which humans inhaled very large amounts of uranium, the chemical toxicity of uranium is known to produce minor effects on the kidney, which in humans who have suffered large acute exposures have been transitory and wholly reversible. Because depleted and natural uranium are only weakly radioactive, radiological effects from ingested or inhaled uranium have not been detected in humans.
Human experience with uranium has spanned more than 200 years. In the early part of the twentieth century, uranium was used therapeutically as a treatment for diabetes, and persons so treated were administered relatively large amounts of uranium by mouth. Tens of thousands of persons have worked in the uranium industry over the past several decades, and have been followed up and studied extensively as have populations in Canada and elsewhere who have high levels of uranium in their drinking water. Results of these studies have not revealed any ill health in these populations that is attributable to the intake of uranium. This not surprising as the risk from the radiation dose from uranium is far overshadowed by its potential chemical toxicity, and intakes of uranium of sufficient magnitude to produce chemotoxic effects are unlikely in and of themselves. Any such effects from ingestion or inhalation of uranium would likely manifest themselves first in the form of minor effects associated with the kidneys.
That military personnel and others who may have had contact with depleted uranium from munitions are suffering from various illnesses is not in dispute. That their illnesses are attributable to their exposure to uranium is very, very unlikely.
Dr Cathren’s reply cont in next comment ..
Posted by Ramjet on Aug 28, 2005 at 3:50 AM
Apologists like Ramjet will get no sympathy from me. Your political leanings are blatantly obvious.
“I intend to find everything I possibly can about Rokke, Moret and Nichols. They have slandered me to the world and I will not take that. “
Aw, tough shit.
Posted by Ammonia D on Aug 28, 2005 at 3:50 AM
Ask the Experts .. How are bullets made from depleted uranium (continued from previous comment which was cut short by 4000 character limit)
Health physicists are deeply concerned with the public health and welfare, and as experts in radiation and its effects on people and the environment, are quite aware that something other than exposure to uranium is the cause of the illnesses suffered by those who have had contact with depleted uranium from munitions. A truly enormous body of scientific data shows that it is virtually impossible for uranium to be the cause of their illnesses. Despite this body of scientific data to the contrary, misguided or unknowing people continue to allege that the depleted uranium, and specifically the radioactivity associated with the depleted uranium is the cause of these illness. This is indeed unfortunate, for health physicists and other scientists and physicians already know that depleted uranium is not the cause of these illnesses and thus any investigations into the cause of these illnesses should focus on other possible causes. If we are to offer any measure of relief or solace to these suffering people, and to gain some important additional knowledge of the cause of their illness, we should not waste our valuable and limited energies, resources and time attempting to point the finger at depleted uranium as the culprit, when it is already known that uranium is almost certainly not the cause of the problem.
With respect to reactions with the soil, in time depleted uranium will likely leach into the soil and become mixed with it. It will for all practical purposes be chemically indistinguishable from the natural uranium that is already present in the soil all over the earth. One could create all kinds of scenarios, but probably the best way to think about DU in the soil is to compare it with lead. Because lead and uranium are so similar from a toxicological standpoint, the concerns are about the same.
Ronald L. Kathren, CHP
Professor Emeritus
Washington State University
Posted by Ramjet on Aug 28, 2005 at 3:52 AM
Answer to Question #4549 Submitted to “Ask the Experts”
Category: Uranium
The following question was answered by an expert in the appropriate field:
Q: I am going to protest military training in Australia where US and Australian troops will be using depleted uranium ammunition. I’ve heard the dust can become airborne for 10s of kilometres. Is there a danger? Do I need to buy a respirator? Do you know of an affordable respirator that will effectively filter the dust?
A: There should be no danger to you from airborne depleted uranium, and it is therefore unnecessary for you to purchase or to wear a respirator. You may wish to learn more about the potential hazards of depleted uranium by consulting the Health Physics Society depleted uranium fact sheet. This brief fact sheet will also refer you to other Web sites by reputable organizations, such as the United Nations, which provide in-depth information about depleted uranium and its potential hazards.
Please note that while it is true that airborne dust can be transported many kilometers, only a miniscule fraction of dust released to air at or near the surface of the earth would travel long distances, a fact that is supported by a very large body of both theoretical and empirical studies. Most of the material would fall to earth very close to the point of release and would constitute no hazard to nearby personnel, let alone those at kilometer distances. For uranium-bearing dusts to constitute a meaningful inhalation hazard, the quantity inhaled would have to be relatively large, and the particle sizes would have to be in the so-called respirable range, i.e., on the order of 1 micrometer or so in diameter.
Ronald L. Kathren
Professor Emeritus of Pharmaceutical Sciences
Washington State University at Tri-Cities
Answer posted on July 8, 2005.
Posted by Ramjet on Aug 28, 2005 at 4:00 AM
This is a great discussion. I see a lot of anger. Good!
Many have posted good websites and references, but I don’t see Dr. Helen Caldicott —very layperson-friendly:
HelenCaldicott.com
And her organization:
NuclearPolicy.org (NucUlear will get you the you-know-where)
Nat, everyone is tough on you. Well, good. Educate yourself. It is definitely dangerous to be ill/un/disinformed in this age (nuclear) and if you read Dr. Caldicott’s latest book, it will make you realize how dangerous ‘Depleted’ uranium really is. The term was likely used to ‘tame’ it so that we will accept such unacceptable things as the use of radiation-laden wastes (oh, WASHED up, of course) in our milk jugs and other consumer products. That’s right. Look it up for yourself, don’t take my word for it.
What a horrible legacy we’re leaving in the cradle of civilization.
Posted by lbyland on Aug 28, 2005 at 4:04 AM
Ammonia D .. just exactly what can you determine about my political leanings .. I just am a porcupine .. I bristle. Far as politics, I voted for George McGovern through John Kerry, not for Reagan, Bush either one, nor Nixon! So much for your crystal ball, now read some factual information or admit that you are an ignoramus.
Posted by Ramjet on Aug 28, 2005 at 4:07 AM
BTW, Ramjet, while I appreciate the article talking about ‘dust’ and such, I seem to recall, correctly I hope, that Dr. Caldicott’s book speaks of DU missles that are designed to crack tanks and armored vehicles —DU is dense, you see. These explode/burn, of course, on impact and there is vaporization (NOT dust-borne here) and DU sinks deep into the lungs in this way.
This from memory, but, again, read her works, especially the latest book. She goes into all the new and pertinent uses, not JUST the neglected/idle devises (‘old’ isn’t correct, is it?)
Posted by lbyland on Aug 28, 2005 at 4:17 AM
Someone has just told a health physicist to educate themselves by reading Caldicotts book’s because her writings are “layperson friendly”.
Th Health Physics Society needs to do a better job of informing the public about their work.
Posted by jsong123 on Aug 28, 2005 at 4:53 AM
The 2005 Sandia report describes what happens. Vapors are not the issue. Dust is and the dust remains close to the impact point because of its high specific gravity. DU projectiles do not in themselves explode .. they cause fuel/munitions within the struck tank to explode. They do burn on impact and this causes the self-sharpening which makes them an extremely effective tank killer. Read the 208 page Sandia report. Your tax dollars paid for it; you might as well learn something from it. Dr Caldicott is neither a Health Physicist nor a Geologist and is not really an “expert” on what happens when a DU munition hits an armored target. The Sandia report is based on actual tested impacts and careful extensive measurement. It is available at
http://www.sandia.gov/news-center/news-releases/2005/def-nonprolif-sec/depleted-uranium.html
Posted by Ramjet on Aug 28, 2005 at 5:03 AM
NOW HERE IS THE LIE EXPOSED IN ITS BRAZEN DETAIL!
Read this story from BBC where in lies this quote: Pun intended!
US REJECTST IRAQ CLEANUP
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2946715.stm
Quote from story:
A Pentagon spokesman, Lieutenant-Colonel David Lapan, told BBC News Online: “Since then there’ve been a number of studies - by the UK’s Royal Society and the World Health Organisation, for example - into the health risks of DU, or the lack of them.
“It’s fair to say the 1990 study has been overtaken by them. One thing we’ve found in these various studies is that there are no long-term effects from DU.
“And given that, I don’t believe we have any plans for a DU clean-up in Iraq.”
————-
Now read from :
SCIENTISTS REJ3ECT LINE ON DEPLETED URANIUM
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/04/17/1050172706047.html
Hundreds of tonnes of depleted uranium used by Britain and the US in Iraq should be removed to protect the civilian population, the Royal Society - Britain’s premier scientific institution - says, contradicting Pentagon claims it is not necessary.
The society’s statement fuels the controversy over the use of depleted uranium, which is an effective tank destroyer and bunker-buster but is believed by many scientists to cause cancers and other severe illnesses.
The society was incensed because the Pentagon had claimed it had the backing of the society in saying depleted uranium was not dangerous
——
Read the whole article! THE LIE IS BOLD BARE AND BRAZEN
Britian
Posted by Eadora on Aug 28, 2005 at 7:30 AM
Another enlightening article
This one by : By Ashraf El-Bayoumi
He is a professor of physical chemistry & biophysics in Michigan
State University and Alexandria University, and Vice- President of Alexandria
Human Rights Association.
A CACEROUS WEB OF DECEPTION
Read the whole article
http://www.xs4all.nl/~stgvisie/VISIE/cancerous-web.html
Quotes from the article:
Efforts over recent years by human rights activists to expose the disastrous
health consequences of using depleted uranium (DU) weapons were for the most
part unsuccessful
Posted by Eadora on Aug 28, 2005 at 8:10 AM
Well If No
Posted by Eadora on Aug 28, 2005 at 12:47 PM
The American government and military establishment have a long track record of experimenting with troops with regard to highly radio active nuclear material and conducting this research over a period of years, much in the same fashion as the Tuskegee Syphilis experiment.
Right-wing extremists view our troops as expendable. When President Bush spoke about having political currency after his re-election, that also meant continued spending of the lives of soldiers for an extreme political ideology, homogenized for the palate of blindly faithful followers, that fronts for the monied special interests. It’s all about the money.
<i>
Posted by Tim Christopher on Aug 28, 2005 at 1:04 PM
Vapor (of uranyl oxide gas fumes) is, contrary to Roger Helbig’s claim, the most important issue. And in fact the Army has admitted as much, in their reply to my NRC 10 CFR 2.206 petition, they note the need to determine whether UO3(g) vapor disperses or forms clouds. They have not disputed the fact that the UO3(g) gas vapor is produced, and that fact is noted in about a dozen peer-reviewed scientific publications, such as those here:
http://www.bovik.org/du/2bibs.html
Also, the Health Physics Society is a group of radiation professionals with strong ecomonic ties to the nuclear industry—they have no training or expertise in the chemical toxicity of uranium, leaving that to industrial health practitioners, of which there are few if any monitoring pyrophoric uranium munitions use. The HPS and CHPs are simply not reliable sources for issues involving the chemical toxicity of uranium. For an example of a CHP explaining this, please see:
http://ruleforum.llnl.gov/cgi-bin/downloader/PRM_2026_public/1564-0005.pdf
Any discussion of radioactivity or dusts (the less soluble and less dangerous oxides UO2 and U3O8) is simply misdirection from the real problem of chemical toxicity—which damages DNA causing gulf war syndrome and increases in the incidence rates of birth defects—and the UO3(g) vapor fumes, which are not dust at all, precipitating as a film and being absorbed into the bloodstream immediately upon inhalation.
These are the best peer-reviewed medical publications on the birth defect issue:
“Overall, the risk of any malformation among pregnancies reported by men was 50% higher in Gulf War Veterans (GWV) compared with Non-GWVs”
—Doyle et al. Int. J. Epidemiol., vol. 33 (2004), pp. 74-86
http://ije.oupjournals.org/cgi/content/full/33/1/74
“Infants conceived postwar to male GWVs had significantly higher prevalence of tricuspid valve insufficicieny (relative risk [RR], 2.7; 95% confidence interval [CI], 1.1-6.6; p = 0.039) and aortic valve stenosis (RR, 6.0; 95% CI, 1.2-31.0; p = 0.026) compared to infants conceived postwar to nondeployed veteran males. Among infants of male GWVs, aortic valve stenosis (RR, 163; 95% CI, 0.09-294; p = 0.011) and renal agenesis or hypoplasia (RR, 16.3; 95% CI, 0.09-294; p = 0.011) were significantly higher among infants conceived postwar than prewar.”
—Birth Defects Res A Clin Mol Teratol. vol. 67, no. 4 (2003), pp.
246-60: http://www.bovik.org/du/mscusn/BD_Infants_GWV_AR_AZ_CA_GA_HI_IA_1989-1993.pdf
I. Al-Sadoon, et al, “Depleted Uranium and Health of People in
Basrah: Epidemiological Evidence,” Medical Journal of Basrah
University, vol. 17, nos. 1&2 (1999)—please see Table 1 at:
http://www.irak.be/ned/archief/Depleted Uranium_bestanden/DEPLETED URANIUM-2- INCIDENCE.htm
There is no other explanation—no pesticide, antidote, antibiotic, or smoke—which could have caused this increase in the birth defect rate in U.S. and U.K. troops as well as the Iraqi civilians in Basrah, near the first gulf war in February 1991.
Posted by jsalsman on Aug 28, 2005 at 1:29 PM
Oh, and as for the recent Sandia report—what a piece of work that was. People should keep in mind that Sandia National Laboratories is administered by Lockheed-Martin, which makes the Apache and A-10 30 mm guns which fire DU ordnance. Here are my comments on the recent Sandia report:
http://www.bovik.org/du/snl-dusand.pdf
Most telling is perhaps the quote, “This assessment should not
be interpreted to be a general validation of the SNL National
Securities Studies Department methodology for studying the
consequences of terrorist use of radiological dispersal devices.”
In other words, it’s not good enough to correctly predict the
effects of uranium combustion weapons. By the way, did anyone
notice how Jose Padilla is now charged with plotting to blow up
high-density housing with “natural gas” instead of uranium? UO3
gas is both natural and artificial.
I agree that Table ES-1 on page 12 indicates a 24% increase in
fatal cancer risk and an 8% increase in birth defects, and
ignores chemical toxicity by reporting radiological risk only.
Also, “veterans” is apparently used to mean “all veterans,”
instead of “exposed veterans,” as far as I can tell. Please let
me know if I am wrong about that. Uranium causes 1e+6 more DNA
damage from chemical toxicity than from its radiological hazard.
Miller, et al., J Inorg Biochem, vol. 91, no. 1 (2002), pp.
246-252: http://www.bovik.org/du/Miller-DNA-damage.pdf
Therefore, if only 5% of veterans were exposed, then the risk
ratios for the exposed are 4.8e+6 for fatal cancer, and 1.6e+6
for birth defects, above the radiological risks reported.
However, I can not agree with the study because it is self-
contradictory. In earlier sections in section 1.2 on scope, it
claims to include complete evaluation of both radiological and
nonradiological hazards, but Section 5.2 on p. 72, “Other Heavy
Metal Effects,” reads:
> Some evidence has been reported for the possibility of other
> chemical effects associated with uranium internalization (see
> Appendix D).... Among the tested veterans, McDiarmid
Posted by jsalsman on Aug 28, 2005 at 1:34 PM
Mr. Salsman,
Again, I’m no scientist, certainly. But I was checking out one of the references you gave to support your DU contentions:
http://www.irak.be/ned/archief/Depleted Uranium_bestanden/DEPLETED URANIUM-2- INCIDENCE.htm
This is apparently, or maybe obviously a report from a researcher in Basrah, Iraq in 1999. Why wouldn’t we assume his work to be suspect in light of the fact that it would assumedly have been subject to review by his benevolent over-lord, Saddam Hussein? Would he possibly have been trying to reach a pre-conceived (ordered) result?
And even if the data is accurate, are you sure about there not being any other influences on the population? Do you trust Saddam when he tells you he wasn’t doing any experiments on some of his favorite people that decade?
It seems to me they did have a bit of a smoke problem back in the early 90’s.
Posted by Natalie on Aug 28, 2005 at 5:42 PM
Natalie:
Thank you for your questions.
The Al-Sadoon, Hassan, and Yacoub paper was published in the Medical Journal of Basrah
University, a peer-reviewed publication which is considered authorative in Iraq. There is no evidence of the medical journals in Iraq being censored or controlled by the government of which I am aware. In any case, the results in the Al-Sadoon, et al. paper were confirmed by the oncologist Dr. Jawad Al-Ali, who spoke in Stockholm on 24 April 2004. Presumably at that time Dr. Al-Ali had no reason to maintain government or fear the Saddam government. You can read Dr. Al-Ali’s Stockholm presentation, linking depleted uranium exposure to both birth defects and cancers here:
http://www.bovik.org/du/Effects-of-DU-war.pdf
Given that the increase in birth defects was noted only in Basrah, immediately adjacent to the February 1991 gulf war’s pyrophoric uranium munitions use, and nowhere else in Iraq, combind with the established fact that Saddam was predisposed to experiment with chemical weapons on the Kurds rather than the more numerous Arabs such as populate Basrah, and further combined with the fact that the combat-deployed soldiers who fought near Basrah in February 1991 also have experienced increased birth defect rates in their offspring, I think it would be exceedingly unlikely for the Basrah civilian’s birth defect rate increase to be attributable to experimentation with chemical weapons.
Posted by jsalsman on Aug 28, 2005 at 6:04 PM
Moreover, there are apparently no chemical weapons, as far as I can tell, which are teratogenic (cause birth defects.) They might kill you and increase your chances of cancer, but none of them apparently affect the congenital malformation rates of mamals at nonlethal doses.
There are a number of biological pathogens which are teratogenic, but I don’t think any of them have ever been considered as biological warfare agents. The following list is taken from Table 1 on page 11 of J.B. Bishop, et al., “Genetic Toxicities of Human Teratogens,” Mutation Research, vol. 396 (1997), pp. 9-43:
http://www.bovik.org/du/Bishop97MutRes-GenToxTerat.pdf
Cytomegalovirus (CMG)
human Herpes virus I and II
Parvovirus B-19 (Erthema infectiousum)
Rubella virus
Syphilis
Toxoplasmosis
Varicella virus
Venezuelan equine encephalitis virus (VEEV)
Of those, only syphilis and VEEV has been documented as being used as a biological weapon: Syphilis by the Japanese against the Chinese in the 1930s, and while VEEV is been considered a potent biological weapon, its use as such has not yet been documented.
However, if any of the above agents were used in the 1991 gulf war, it would have been obvious. They all have acute and well-understood symptoms, none of which were reported beyond expected levels.
Posted by jsalsman on Aug 28, 2005 at 6:36 PM
HO HO HO! The Colonel is indeed outed. Heh Helbig you were outed by another I just commented on the obsefrvation and added my own that you and Natalie are probably the same. Others have amply proven your pathetic propagandistic attempts for your masters. Too many informed people here for you Colonel Natalie Helbig. No Rabbit will just stick with taunting you, its more fun. You can’t change my views sunshine because I am well qualified to understand DU and all it’s implications. I can’t change yours because you are programmed and have an agenda anyway. Did Rabbit upset you or what though? How many postings did you rattle off there? and not one of them of any use whatsoever too. You really ought to find something better to do to earn your pay. You’re funny though and every good discussion site should have one of you official apologists.
Now Rabbit, who has no problem with his name being known is a fairly well travelled handle in cyberspace. Rabbit doesn’t like saying I and me all the time so finds the handle useful. Additionally, Roger Ramjet, The handle is entirely intentional (as is yours no doubt, hee hee). Since I born in the year of the Rabbit am and recognise easily those attributes of character referred to by the Chinese I use the name to be even more expressive of my true self than my name of Stephen Gray Pallister would be. Now that is a hell of a lot more courage than you possess you prissy little morality challenged military yes-man. When your masters run that one through the machine you’ll see why. Watch the lights and bells go off. Then you’ll be back to try and smear me scumbag, prooving not only who you are, but what.
One thing is for sure though Colonel Roger Helbig Ramjet Natalie, nothing your masters know about me will even begin to make you aware of how utterly out of your depth you are now and at any time in the future.
Rabbit tends to act as a nexus for certain people as well as information and ideas. This is done quite visibly about the web and in other ways not so evident. Intuition and intelligence coupled with a total committment to the truth and unflinching courage, has seen the Rabbit top of the class when it comes to Bashing Bullies. Ever since Rabbit was a skinny kid with glasses he made a practice of annoying the biggest dickheads he can find and then belting the crap out of them. Many of them were better people for it I might add. No chance for you though Colonel. You are lost to us. Since there are usually plenty of knowledgeable people around to sort out the facts I usually just turn my talents to drawing out trolls and stooges. I’ve got a pretty good record actually, notice how pissed off I’m making you, and you are making mistakes. ie; you are the one that proved who you are and you proved Natalie already and already I’ve set you up for the coup de gras.
Now we’ve seen American Super-hero, Naive all american girl, and I think I might have caught your returned veteran for bush act somewhere else on the internet. What Rabbit is wondering is what else can you do.?
Can you do an American Soldier Mum who is proud her slowly dying son fought even though he needs her help to get down to the dole office these days.?
What about a professor who has proven that DU has been mistakenly treated as a lethal poison with all the aforementioned disposal criteria for decades.? In fact you expect to see cars made of it in the future, and body armour.
BTW Roger BIGjet how do the actual measurements of radioactivity in Iraq as well as the myriad symtoms of radiation poisoning amongst many patients including returned veterans fit in with your pretence that DU is safe? They are imagining it maybe? Or maybe you’ve got some links to somewhere where it says they are imagining it.?
Come on BIG ROGER RAMBO show us your style.
Posted by Rabbitvoz on Aug 28, 2005 at 7:56 PM
I have not seen anyone mention the most horrifying part of this anti-DU hysteria yet, so allow me to pipe in.
The US .mil is not immune to loud whining such as the anti-DU folks are good at. They have, reluctantly, worked on developing a replacement for DU. This is a tall order, because DU has a combination of properties that literally make it unique as a weapon alloy.
It is very dense. It is VERY strong when properly worked. It is pyrophoric (bursts into flames in air if provoked.) But most uniquely, it exhibits adiabatic shear. This is the most unique property if all, and the one that makes it self-sharpening. Self sharpening is very important for defeating armor.
Well, after a lot of effort and money, the .mil has successfully developed a tungsten-based replacement for DU which has all the same properties, including the adiabatic shear.
Hooray! There’s no more need to use DU! Tungsten, while nasty stuff, isn’t nearly as toxic as DU is, right?
Well, recently some scientists decided to test the lethality of this new DU replacement, and what they found was startling.
This non-radioactive, “safer” alloy caused 100 percent fatal cancers in test rats. Some showed up in mere weeks.
ONE HUNDRED PERCENT FATAL.
Be careful what you wish for folks, you might get it.
http://www.afrri.usuhs.mil/www/outreach/pdf/tungsten_cancer.pdf
Posted by mauk2 on Aug 28, 2005 at 10:20 PM
Da
Posted by Eadora on Aug 28, 2005 at 10:39 PM
mauk2 (could it be? surely not the colonel.) give us a break. Why are you making the assumption that concerns about DU are hysteria? They have been discussed in rational terms with so many facts raised which remove all doubt that DU ammunition is dangerous. There really never was any doubt you clown.
DU is absolutely banned under international law both by definition as Chemical and Nuclear weapon. The massive disposal problems of the stuff, when it is not being blasted all over people we don’t like, is further proof that you are pissing into the wind to pretend there is any doubt about the lethality of the stuff.
mauk2 you are not only the hysterical one sunshine, you are actually coming across as a psychopath, since there really isn’t any question that Waste Uranium is VERY BLOODY DANGEROUS, in the long term. Trying to derail the topic again with the tungsten crap is typical, don’t bite please anyone.
Considering the timing of your arrival and that familiar hubris, clowding the issue attitude, Rabbit feels obligated to point out that even if you are not Rambo Helbig in another guise, you seem to be. Not much good at this stuff are we Colonel? The voice baby, the voice has to be different. A wig and glasses doesn’t do it.
Posted by Rabbitvoz on Aug 28, 2005 at 11:00 PM
Heh folks this guy is at it under other handles too. Found him calling himself MiddleRoad here thinks Rabbit.
http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/2299/
What a Goose! Do they really promote these kind of donkeys to Lt Colonel in your country?
No wonder Aussies don’t take well to saluting US officers.
Posted by Rabbitvoz on Aug 28, 2005 at 11:13 PM
mauk2:
Tungsten is far superior, because it’s not pyrophoric it only harms by shrapnel.
In the February 1991 gulf war, less than 200 soldiers ended up with DU shrapnel, but hundreds of thousands were exposed to and inhaled UO3(g) vapor fumes from the 315 tons of DU ordnance used that month, including civilians.
Furthermore, the rats might be an outlier. To quote from the article you cite, “tungsten coils implanted into ... rabbits rapidly degrade…. However, after four months, no signs of local or systemic toxicity were observed.” (Peuster, et al., Biomaterials, vol. 24 (2003) pp. 393-399.)
I’d rather put just the soldiers at risk than the soldiers and the civilians and their offspring, any day of the week. The soldiers signed up for war; the civilians and the kids did not.
Plus, shrapnel can often be removed; inhaled uranyl compounds can not.
Posted by jsalsman on Aug 28, 2005 at 11:26 PM
Quote the Rabbit!
you are actually coming across as a psychopath, since there really isn
Posted by Eadora on Aug 28, 2005 at 11:34 PM
Eadora you have to see an angry rabbit to believe it. They not only bite but also growl and can maintain a sustained, ferocious attack. Upset my youngest son’s Miniature Black Rex once and will never forget the experience. The Rabbit attacked non-stop for about fifteen minutes and I emerged bloody and shaken.
I have had cause to re-consider the story about the Rabbit which swam out to Bill Clinton in the middle of a lake and bit him. Always figured the Rabbit knew exactly what it was doing. They don’t just jump into lakes without a reason, though ours enjoys Kayaking in the Swan river.
Posted by Rabbitvoz on Aug 29, 2005 at 12:39 AM
I am hoping that Dave Lindorff is still reading here, because there’s something in his article that made no sense to me:
“According to Mt. Sinai pathologist Thomas Fasey, who participated in the New York Guard unit testing, the element has an affinity for bonding with DNA, where even trace amounts can cause cancers and fetal abnormalities.”
As far as I know, uranium is not known for complex covalent bonding, and DNA does not act as a chelating agent. It seems to me that if DNA had a propensity for chelating heavy metals, then uranium would be the least of our worries. So why would uranium have any affinity for *bonding* with DNA?
Meanwhile, I have a few observations about the radioactive risk from inhaled uranium:
The biological target of concern is DNA. When we’re discussing any alpha-emitter, we’re talking about double strand breaks in DNA.
The body’s first line of defense against DNA damage is its amazing ability to repair strand breaks with near perfection. (If it weren’t for this ability, we wouldn’t be here.) When the body makes an error in repair *and* the cell is not killed in the process, then we have a mutated survivor that could become cancerous if it develops a competitive advantage with normal cells.
The body’s second line of defense is for the immune system to destroy “misbehaving” mutant cells. Any suppression of immunity can be critical at this stage.
Stress is perhaps the greatest suppressor of our immune system. War is probably the most stressful possible situation. Unless there are other factors I am overlooking, it would follow that soldiers generally have suppressed immune systems.
However, as I recall, all of the cohorts used for uranium dose conversion factors are groups of people who were not under unusual stress. Therefore, while the *dose* conversion factors may be correct from that data, the *effective* dose (that is, the biological effect per unit of absorbed energy) may be significantly underestimated for combat soldiers.
That may be a significant factor in the kind of observations made by Dave Lindorff and others.
As an interesting aside, I noted the figure of 300 tons of uranium munitions used by U.S. soldiers. In my research on the Yellowstone Caldera, I discovered that a series of eruptions over the past million years emitted 300 *million* tons of uranium into the air. Considering the different time scales, I realize that the comparison is like apples to oranges, but it seems worth mentioning.
Your body sees no difference between the alpha particle from the Yellowstone dust in your backyard and the one from shrapnel. The critical differences may be scale and stress.
Posted by knappster on Aug 29, 2005 at 12:50 AM
Knappster says “The biological target of concern is DNA. When we
Posted by Rabbitvoz on Aug 29, 2005 at 1:55 AM
Knappster:
The uranyl ion and its complexes form ligands with protiens and DNA, when it’s not catalyzing hydroxyl and other oxidative radicals. Please see: H. Huang, et al., “Uranyl-Peptide Interactions in Carbonate Solution with DAHK and Derivatives,” Inorganic Chemistry, vol. 44 (2005), pp. 813-815:
http://www.bovik.org/du/uranyl-peptide.pdf
and for DNA: M. Yazzie, et al., Chemical Research in Toxicology, vol. 16 (2003) pp. 524-530.
The radioactivity of uranium is of essentially no consequence in relation to DNA damage compared with its chemical toxicity producing oxidative stress resulting in oxidation damage to DNA. Any discussion of U radioactivity in that context is tantamount to misdirection from the more hazardous chemical toxicity. This must be the 100th time I’ve had to explain this, and at least the 3rd or forth on this thread.
Posted by jsalsman on Aug 29, 2005 at 9:12 AM
rabbitvoz sez: “Why are you making the assumption that concerns about DU are hysteria?”
Because study after study has shown no connection between DU exposure (which is bad, mind you, but then, so is lead exposure) and these mystery ailments. Arguments unsupported by facts are generally driven by hysteria.
“They have been discussed in rational terms with so many facts raised which remove all doubt that DU ammunition is dangerous.”
Heh. Let me get this straight: You’re complaining that BULLETS are DANGEROUS?
LOL. Of COURSE they are. THEY’RE BULLETS.
Duh?
I think what you meant to say is that DU has unintended levels of incidental toxicity. That is a far more nebulous claim, and frankly, one that is unsupported by facts.
“...even if you are not Rambo Helbig in another guise, you seem to be.”
Nope! I saw this conversation posted on a mailing list I frequent, and since I am a small, weak person in many ways, I came by to inject some facts into the argument. I know, it’s a thankless task…. :(
jsalsman sez:
“Tungsten is far superior, because it
Posted by mauk2 on Aug 29, 2005 at 9:33 AM
jsalsman:
“The radioactivity of uranium is of essentially no consequence in relation to DNA damage compared with its chemical toxicity producing oxidative stress resulting in oxidation damage to DNA.”
Maybe you should tell this to the author, who used the word “radioactive” in the title to hook people into reading his article.
Posted by jsong123 on Aug 29, 2005 at 11:22 AM
YOH! mauk2 - Your lame attempts at Ridicule are most humorous.
Quote mauk2
Posted by Eadora on Aug 29, 2005 at 11:24 AM
“Because study after study has shown no connection between DU exposure (which is bad, mind you, but then, so is lead exposure) and these mystery ailments. Arguments unsupported by facts are generally driven by hysteria.”
It’s so easy to spot the psychotic personalities that post here—they always spout-off oblivious to the article.
Posted by Tim Christopher on Aug 29, 2005 at 11:24 AM
You apologists for DU death are a real treat!
It’s like dealing with cockroaches on a kitchen table.
DEATH BY SLOW BURN
Posted by Eadora on Aug 29, 2005 at 11:27 AM
God! It’s like dealing with a sub human species
You can continue in your denials and rants,
Posted by Eadora on Aug 29, 2005 at 11:49 AM
Eadora sez: “READ THE WHOLE THING”
Hey. it’s only a few pages, of course I read the whole thing, it took me like 30 minutes. :)
Here’s the link:
http://www.uraniumweaponsconference.de/pdf/conferenceresoluttion2.pdf
This is a list of findings. I find these unpersuasive, because all too often the folks involved are quite partisan in their opinions. I would much prefer links to the source papers, such as I provided for the tungsten weapon alloy above.
That said, some of these papers seeme dubious in their claims at best, although I’ll have to admit, the “photoelectron amplification” paper sounds darn interesting and even maybe vaguely plausible. Most of these seem like epidemiological studies, and frankly, stats like those can be massaged to say about anything by people with an agenda. Here’s a truism you never see people who make these epidemiological admit to: “Correlation does not mean causation.”
There is a very strong correlation between lying down and dying. Does this mean that if you stand up forever, you’ll be immortal?
Now, your next link:
http://www.barremore.net/depleted-uranium-kills.html
Lots of words, lots of angst, very few facts. Felt like wading through a fever dream, but as I was asked to read the whole thing, I did. Even the part where the page accused President Clinton of laundering drug money for the first President Bush. Do you actually BELIEVE this stuff? :D
I especially liked the little “Arrest Bush-Cheney” ad at the bottom, nice little factual, non-partisan touch. :)
Sadly, heated rhetoric doesn’t mean a thing.
Okay this link:
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/326/7396/952
It’s just a news article. Gimme some links to source papers. This biased crap that passes for journalism these days means nothing except that some hack made his deadline on time.
Now this link seemed more promising:
http://www.idust.net/Compendium/Compendium.htm
But it’s just a bunch of links to paper abstracts as far as I can tell. Abstracts are nice and all, but more than a little short of information.
This link seems broken somehow:
http://www.axisoflogic.com/cgi-bin/exec/view.pl?archive=43&a amp;num=5279
This link gives me a 404 error:
http://www.americanfreepress.net/06_24_03/Massive_Epidemic_/ /massive_epidemic_.html
Now, you are aware that depeleted uranium is less radioactive than natural uranium.
It is chemically identical.
Thus, natural uranium should be worse than depelted uranium, yes? More rads, same chemistry.
If this is the case, why is anybody alive? Uranium is EVERYWHERE.
You do realize that uranium is present in phosphate fertilizers that are used to grow most of our food, right?
http://www.orau.org/ptp/collection/consumer products/fertilizer.htm
If uranium is so deadly, why aren’t we all dead already?
Here, just go to this page and scare yourself green.
http://www.orau.org/ptp/collection/consumer products/consumer.htm
We live in a SEA of radiation. The extra smidgeon that DU adds is so miniscule it makes no difference whatsoever.
The CHEMICAL toxicity of uranium, now that’s something to avoid. But that’s still not as bad as lead or chromium or <shudder> beryllium.
Lots of stuff is radioactive or poisonous. Lots of stuff is more radioactive and more poisonous than DU. The world is not dead. Thus, the whole anti-DU fixation is the result of hysteria. Sorry.
Posted by mauk2 on Aug 29, 2005 at 4:00 PM
mauk2 is obviously Roger in drag.
Note the similar writing style.
;-)
mmmmm…...depleted uranium
mmmmm…...anti-matter
Posted by Natalie on Aug 29, 2005 at 5:24 PM
You got it Eadora, sub-human species. mauk2 Rabbit was indeed wrong about which president the Rabbit bit. That however is the only point about which I am wrong.
You are indeed Ramjet though. I’ve been checking around this site and there appears to be one particular troll who keeps changing his name and posting under attempted different guises. Since we’ve already outed Lt Colonel ROGER HELBIG under several of these already. Apart from the format and tone of your arguments each time you don’t realise it but you’re making certain keyboard errors which are tranferring from one of your incarnations to the next.
You remind Rabbit of a lone soldier jumping from gun to gun pulling off a few shots from each, trying to make it look like there is a whole bunch of you. You have even passed off from one character to the next, like a relay team. Once in a while you have one of your faces compliment the other on it’s great intelligence and insight. “Happy Birthday to Me.” Pretty sad actually old son. Why don’t you stop your pathetic games, come and join the human race.
As for being scared, you are. You live in fear, you never knew anything else, and that is the truth. I’m pissing you off, you’ve never once attended to the simple questions about disposal of waste uranium, (same stuff) the actual measured radiation poisoning and birth defects. You’ve avoided the issue about DU being banned as a chemical and Nuclear weapon. You are a cretinous liar. You are supporting acts known as war crimes, we have your name Colonel and it has been added to the list. You will be held accountable for your role. The penalties for yours and your masters crimes include the death penalty. Your putrid world is collapsing faster than you can imagine and your judgement day is coming soon. Whether or not you know it or admit it makes no difference. Reality exists despite your lies.
You are a coward. Helping to maintain the lie so others can be tricked into dying, there is of course no way you would ever use these weapons or even go into combat. This Colonel leads from the rear.
mauk2, Natalie, Ramjet and all your other alter egos, you are decietful, stupid and cowardly. You have said enough to prove to Rabbit that you must understand the science well enough, you are not denying the Radiation dangers of DU because you doubt them. You are deliberately lying therefore and in the name of all sentient creatures, I curse your soul to eternal shame. You are on the losing side, but unlike many of your fellow rats, we have your name. There’ll be no hiding when the day of judgment come.
As for whether or not you are scared of Rabbit. You are. I’ve messed up your little games big time. You’ve tried to ignore my few simple irrefutable points and instead done nothing except try to insult me. Don’t you realise that Rabbit would be offended if someone like you didn’t hate me? You have tried to clowd the issue and changed your disguise repeatedly. You havn’t won a single point, except Carter which you’re welcome to.
Everybody knows who you are and they have utterly refuted everything you’ve presented. So why are you still here? Probably under orders and we already know your masters don’t know when they are losing.
Can’t wait to see your next trick Colonel. Why don’t you have all your characters come on at once? they could compliment each other on their insight and cleverness, back each other up and so on. Heh we’ll play along, we can pretend we don’t know they’re all you if you want. Whatever you do don’t give up. You are providing such a classic example of Government disinfo agent that people are coming to this site now just to check you out.
A few more names people. Rabbit may be wrong about all of these being one person but have cross matched them to no more than two people. Roger Ramjet, Natalie, mauk2, WhatTheHeck, al-Dakari, U Scare Me. Can’t remember any more just now.
Posted by Rabbitvoz on Aug 29, 2005 at 6:04 PM
Oh Colonel, you are such a dammed liar. Rabbit just realised you told another huge lie.
“Now, you are aware that depeleted uranium is less radioactive than natural uranium.
It is chemically identical”
Bullshit. Depleted Uranium is a thousand times more radioactive than natural Uranium.
End of Story.
Posted by Rabbitvoz on Aug 29, 2005 at 6:07 PM
Response by mauk2 To:
CONFERENCE RESOLUTION 2 FROM THE WORLD DU URANIUM WEAPONS CONFERENCE
Posted by Eadora on Aug 29, 2005 at 6:56 PM
URANIUM KILLS A DEATH BY SLOW BURN
http://www.barremore.net/depleted-uranium-kills.html
response by
Posted by Eadora on Aug 29, 2005 at 6:57 PM
Eadora we are actually arguing with someone that depleted uranium is dangerous, talk about surreal eh?. mauk2 is not going to progress. Rabbit is quite sure it is just the latest incarnation of Colonel Ramjet. Is this guy a fruit loop or what. He’s trying to bring Natalie up like a phoenix from the ashes, but he’s keeping mauk in there just in case. Not putting all his eggs in one basket you see.
If the Shill’s employers are reading this, don’t change the guy out, we love him. He allows us to fill in all the details clearly in a format that allows open minded people to both see the truth and to see you guys hard at trying to decieve them. Keep up the good work you silly shilly.
Posted by Rabbitvoz on Aug 29, 2005 at 7:15 PM
One last comment. I can’t stop myself. Roger says depleted uranium is less radioactive than uranium. For christ’s sake. All depleted uranium is, is uranium that has had most of the U235 taken out of it (the stuff needed for fission chain reactions in bombs and nuke plants). Since U235 occurs in nature at about 2 percent of all uranium, with U238 accounting for about 98 percent of any sample, depleting it has very little effect on total radioactivity, though it’s true that U235 is a bit more radioactive than U238. But again, it’s not the radioactivity alone, or even primarily, that is what makes depleted uranium so dangerous.
Nuff said on this whole string. We know who the liars and shills are, and nothing has been said in all this to undermine the point of the article, which is that DU is a heinous crime against both our own troops and their families and against the Iraqi and Afghani people.
Dave Lindorff
Posted by dlindorff on Aug 29, 2005 at 7:22 PM
Yoh Rabbit!
They Is Lower Life Forms Fer Sure!
They expose themselves for what they are.
People who would spread Toxic Waste upon our world, and who would try to justify it with Toxic Lies.
THEY HAVE BEEN EXPOSED
Posted by Eadora on Aug 29, 2005 at 7:22 PM
AMEN. Thanks for the GREAT article Dave.
Posted by Rabbitvoz on Aug 29, 2005 at 7:26 PM
dlindorff:“We know who the liars and shills are”
And you used a baby and the word “radioactive” to draw attention to your shit article.
Posted by jsong123 on Aug 29, 2005 at 7:44 PM
Q: Would you care to explain how posting information on uranium poisoning is costing American lives?
A: Simple, when the information is not true and it is used to recruit suicide bombers.
When they figure out we’re trying to kill them they become suicidal. We’ll just wait ‘em out.
And poison their water table.
Posted by SourDove on Aug 29, 2005 at 8:34 PM
natalie sez: “mauk2 is obviously Roger in drag.
Note the similar writing style.
;-)”
Hey, don’t laugh, the denizens of the fever swamp here are claiming that I’m YOU, too. :D
rabbitvoz hammered at the keyboard for a while, then finally mangaged to form a coherent sentence:
“Depleted Uranium is a thousand times more radioactive than natural Uranium.”
Sadly, this is completely wrong. :(
Posted by mauk2 on Aug 29, 2005 at 8:43 PM
Lindorff,
Less radioactive than naturally occuring Uranium and it is substantially less so .. you are no objective reporter, but a shill for the activists. Did you read the Health Physics Society DU Fact Sheet? No, that would be actual research instead of lapping up whatever Rokke feeds you.
Now as to the slop he fed you, did you ask
for Rokke’s last efficiency report from the Chemical School that resulted in his beiong fired from civil service, not one that contains the usual puffery that Rokke received, like most military and civilian workers, before his incompetence was discovered.
No, I thought not.
Far as Rabbitvoz goes, I wonder how much he makes off of peddling the anti-DU line .. is he a paid employee of Traprock Peace Center or maybe Asaf Durakovic’s Uranium Medical Research Center .. which probably could find Uranium in anyone’s urine since we all live on Earth and Uranium is one of the most commonly occuring minerals on the planet.
I don’t work for anyone .. no one pays me to oppose you yo yo’s and it is not in the best interests of American servicemen to participate in your DU witch hunt.
Posted by Ramjet on Aug 29, 2005 at 8:47 PM
Again, To all you Apologists of
Posted by Eadora on Aug 29, 2005 at 9:15 PM
Dave Lindorff sez: “Since U235 occurs in nature at about 2 percent of all uranium, with U238 accounting for about 98 percent of any sample, depleting it has very little effect on total radioactivity, though it
Posted by mauk2 on Aug 29, 2005 at 9:46 PM
The author of the article that started this fun conversation triumphantly concludes:
“nothing has been said in all this to undermine the point of the article, which is that DU is a heinous crime against both our own troops and their families and against the Iraqi and Afghani people.”
Well, at the risk of wandering offtopic a bit, let’s address that then.
I have posted links to the FACT that the replacement the .mil developed for DU is far, far worse than DU is.
I have further noted that DU is unique in its combination of properties. It is the best substance that exists at destroying armor. Even the liquid metal tungsten alloy is only close.
Are you stating that the US .mil should stop using DU minitions without any replacement? Why would the military do that? Their JOB is to kill people and break stuff. They all volunteered to do it, too. If they aren’t careful playing with their nasty toys, THAT’S THEIR FAULT. The military isn’t full of innocent babes, it’s full of hardened, experienced killers, and I am thankful for that fact.
Now, about the Iraqi and Afghan peoples:
Do you want to argue that the dictator who formerly ruled in Iraq was “better” for the Iraqi people than their own elected government will be? Name for me any representative government, of any form, that was worse for the populace than a totalitarian despot.
Or do you want to argue that said dictator could have been removed without military force?
Do you want to argue that the catastrophic sanctions regime would have worked “eventually?”
Do I have to start posting links to the “oil for food” mess in order to make this point?
No, it seems clear to me that there was no other course besides keeping the status quo, or military action. Like it or hate it, we chose military action.
You use the military, they bring all their nasty toys. Lead and napalm and bomblets and mines and artillery and tanks and yes, even depleted uranium. But depleted uranium isn’t “special” in that rogues gallery. I’d argue napalm is much, much nastier, and sub-munitions and mines are way up there too.
This isn’t rocket science.
Sure, lots of people are (to further their own agendas) pushing this “DU is the devil” foolishness, but the facts don’t support it.
I used a half hour today chasing down the cites of one of the fever denizens here, and they all had NO FACTS.
Sorry.
DU is nasty stuff. But it’s no worse than lead, and is probably better than mercury or arsenic, and is WAY better than napalm. It’s not some magical ogre out to eat children.
You all do a mis-service by spreading these lies and propaganda without bothering to educate yourselves.
For shame.
Posted by mauk2 on Aug 29, 2005 at 9:51 PM
mauk2:
My replies to your messages are below. But first a word to some of the more prolific particpants here.
People, would you please squelch the personal attacks? Even if they are deserved, they don’t do any good, and they clutter up the thread terribly making life difficult for those of us trying to have a rational discussion. There is no question that there has been a lot of exaggeration, hyperbole, and vindictiveness on both sides of the DU debate. Few people have remained untouched by these failures in rational argument. If either side wishes to make any real progress, we have to get past the invalid forms of argument, including the personal attacks. Please hold your comments if you don’t have anything nice or factually-supported to say. I realize in an issue of this tremendous import it is difficult, but it really is necessary if any of us hope to get anywhere.
Now, on to my replies to mauk2:
Regarding your comments, “The Uranium
trioxide vapor notion, I’m not so sure of either, but I’d be willing to
see that examined as a possible exposure mechanism.” I recommend the following primary source from the peer-reviewed scientific literature: R.J. Ackermann, R.J. Thorn, C. Alexander, and M. Tetenbaum, in “Free Energies of Formation of Gaseous Uranium, Molybdenum, and Tungsten Trioxides,” Journal of Physical Chemistry, vol. 64 (1960) pp. 350-355, state within their abstract, “gaseous monomeric uranium trioxide is the principal species produced by the reaction of U3O8 with oxygen.” They indicate that this occurs at 1200 to 1800 Kelvin, which is well below the temperature at which uranium burns in air (E.M. Mouradian, L. Baker, Jr., “Burning Temperatures of Uranium and Zirconium in Air,” Nuclear Science and Engineering, vol. 15 (1963), p. 388-394, in particular Fig. 6 on page 392, and Fig. 3.) By “monomeric,” the authors clearly mean “monomolecular,” and indicate that almost all such UO3 produced is in the gaseous state and comprised of single molecules. The fact of UO3(g) vapor production is supported by the first seven peer-reviewed articles listed in this bibliography:
http://www.bovik.org/du/2bibs.html
Regarding your comments, “Uranium is EVERYWHERE. You do realize that uranium is present in phosphate fertilizers that are used to grow most of our food, right?” The issue here is that 97% of naturally occuring uranium is in the safe and relativly insoluble quadravalent uranium(IV) oxidation state. You can swallow five grams of UO2 without much harm—a person tried in 1996 to commit suicide with 15 grams of uranium(IV) acetate, and it didn’t work; the patient lived after six months of dialysis.
The problem is with inhalation of the relativly soluble uranyl ion, e.g. in uranyl oxide (UO3). The hexavalent uranium(VI) ions such as uranyl—unlike any metalic uranium(0) or uranium(IV) ion such as in UO2 or U3O8—is “biologically available,” which means it is distributed into many tissues, some of which it accumulates in (e.g. the testes.) In addition to being biologically available, it catalyses oxidative radicals which damage DNA, and binds to proteins and DNA through ligation, which allows it to enter cells and nuclei. That is bad news.
The problem with the chemical toxicity of uranium is that it attacks the chromosomes instead of other reticulated cell structures, making it a harm to the immune syste (resulting in gulf war illness) and offspring of male exposure victims with increased incidence of birth defects.
(continued below)
Posted by jsalsman on Aug 30, 2005 at 1:15 AM
(continued from previous comment)
mauk2:
Regarding your comment, “U238 is actually MORE radioactive than U235.” Actually, the reverse is true. All the three primary uranium isotopes decay by alpha emission. Their abundance and half lives are as follows:
U234 0.005% 2.5
Posted by jsalsman on Aug 30, 2005 at 1:16 AM
What Roger Ramjet doesn’t tell you.
Bob Evans was a reporter, now editor, in a town where the biggest employee is the Army Transportation Corps.
Second, even with that bias his series documents the US military continued refusal to conduct testing for radiation contamination
What does Bob Evans say - “The US government advertises a test for its veterans of that war too. But the test that it offers can’t detect uranium in low amounts, has a high error rate and uses equipment that’s less sensitive and accurate than the machines the British are using. US vets and soldiers who’ve had this test say they’ve been told they weren’t exposed when, in fact, the tests were simply incapable of detecting whether depleted uranium was present.”
http://www.envirosagainstwar.org/know/read.php?itemid=2214
Evans documents the continued denials of the military of any problems with depleted uranium while getting interviews with men who have obvious radiation sickness.
Most of the sick veterans have symptoms similar to navy personnel at Operation Crossroads in the Pacific where men stood on ships as radioactive mist rained down. These men were then repeated ordered to clean contaminated ships for weeks in an effort to develop a means of removing contamination. For over 45 years the Navy insisted that none of the men had problems caused by their experience.
http://www.aracnet.com/~pdxavets/deny.htm
He is a troll. It is interesting the series he sites supports the claims of DU caused radiation damage but he only quotes controversial researchers in the articles that deny these claims similar to the way the military always denies dangers of weapons in use.
Gary
Easter Lemming Liberal News Digest
http://elemming2.blogspot.com
Posted by Easter on Aug 30, 2005 at 3:05 AM
Actually Lt Colonel Helbig doesn’t tell us anything, in any of his guises. He has however helped draw out some good information via the refutation of all his posts by well informed people, allowing anyone who visits this thread to check the Official story in detail and to see a military shill in all his naked glory trying to stop the leaks in their rapidly sinking ship.
The use of Depleted Uranium in weapons and deploying said weapons is a war crime and so it should be. The US military has authored it’s own destruction with its present course. America will still have to answer for their actions at the end of the day.
Posted by Rabbitvoz on Aug 30, 2005 at 4:15 AM
Rabbitvoz is a “real man” or is he .. if he were, instead of sniping from the woods, he would step out in the open and declare who he is instead of hiding behind a pseudonymn. I made a mistake by using my real first name, but so what .. I just do not want my inbox filled with drivel such as Rabbitvoz dishes out. So Rabbitvoz, step out in the open and declare who you are, you know how to find me. I do not take kindly to being called a shill .. shills deceptively work for others and I work for nothing other than the satisfaction that I am providing truthful information. That is more than I can say for Rokke and his shills, one of whom I presume is you Rabbitvoz.
Posted by Ramjet on Aug 30, 2005 at 4:28 AM
Again, To all you Apologists of
Posted by Eadora on Aug 30, 2005 at 5:12 AM
U.S. MILITARY
Heads Roll At The Veterans Administration: Mushrooming Depleted Uranium (DU) Scandal Blamed
http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/printer_15334.shtml
January 24, 2005—The Preventive Psychiatry E-Newsletter today charged that the reason Veterans Affairs Secretary Anthony Principi stepped down earlier this month was the growing scandal surrounding the use of uranium munitions (DU) in the Iraq War.
Writing in the Preventive Psychiatry E-Newsletter # 169, Arthur N. Bernklau, Executive Director of the Veterans For Constitutional Law Center in New York, stated that “The real reason for Mr. Principi
Posted by Eadora on Aug 30, 2005 at 5:14 AM
Hi ho,
I’m sorry,maybe it’s just me and a few others,but didn’t we learn from a century of history,beginning with Madame Curie who died from handling radium,that radioactive material is something not to toy with?Yet,what are we doing?Scattering all over Asia Minor in this ridiculous conflict!It’s funny.No it isn’t actually,that a substance we would want in our back yard is something we casually disseminate in Iraq.Of course it destroys armor well!Look at its molecular density!Yet are we also not smart enough monkeys to remember just how long uranium is radioactive?Please spare me the"depleted"part if our government won’t tell us the truth about sugar substitutes,what makes you think they’ll be honest about radioactive material?
A radiated country—one more reason for the Muslims to hate us for the next millenium.
Posted by wwoods on Aug 30, 2005 at 6:17 AM
Typo.
“would want” should be “would’nt want”
Sorry,the phone rang.
Posted by wwoods on Aug 30, 2005 at 6:19 AM
I’d like to address something else that Mauk referred to: whether or not the Iraqis were better off under Hussein or with their new “representative” government. You know what?
I could care less!
That’s right: I COULD CARE LESS. What I DO care about is THIS country, and we are definitely NOT better off. At the point of invasion, Iraq was hemmed in by no-fly zones, Hussein was relatively contained and there was little/no mischief from insurgents or terra-ists in Iraq. Any idiot laughed immediately at White House “speculation” that he was in league with Al Qaeda/bin Laden. As a secular tyrant, he had no use for Islam or anything else except when he could use the religion card (like in Gulf War !) to garner sympathy in the region. As a result, he and bin Laden were fundamentally different and definitely not buddies.
So, from my perspective, there was nothing there that translated into any kind of direct threat against the U.S. or our interests. At least nothing so pressing that it required us to bail on Afghanistan and leave the acknowledged master-mind of over 3,000 deaths on American soil at large.
Were the Iraqis suffering? Sure they were. Hussein and his vile brats were evil incarnate and their crimes and horrors were documented in many places.
But, while I can (and do!) sympathize with their plight, I have to ask how committing our military is serving our best interests. By any barometer, it didn’t. If you want to pull the lame humanitarian card - like Dubya did when his lies/deceit couldn’t be hidden any longer - then I would say fine, let’s go help the people out.
But it wouldn’t have been in Iraq, it would’ve been in Darfur, where the scale of slaughter and human suffering makes anything Hussein did almost quaint by comparison. We can’t be everywhere and everything to all people, not at the expense of our security. And yet that’s exactly what happened: we are so stretched with resources over there that we would be strapped if/when another crisis occurs. And just where is that bin Laden fella, by the way?
Back to the DU stuff: you can argue degree of severity all you want, certainly there’s no lack of opinions on either side. But the bottom line is that the shit is deadly, poisonous and like the in-laws from hell sticks around far longer than the initial visit.
And people wonder “why do they hate us…?”
Posted by g-love on Aug 30, 2005 at 8:01 AM
Quote the
Posted by Eadora on Aug 30, 2005 at 11:35 AM
Let me chime in here one last time. (ok,maybe not the last time)
Obviously, both sides on this debate have agendas and basic political and ideological beliefs that are furthered or frustrated by the truth on DU.
I am new to this subject, although I have heard brief mention of it elsewhere in the past. I guess we have Cindy Sheehan and her “nuclear war” references to thank for bringing it more out in the open. Oh yes, and Mr. Lindorff, of course.
I’m on the vacillating side of the anywhere from 40% to 75% of the people, depending on the situation on the ground and the balance of reporting, that approve of our decision to invade Iraq. I’ve read several what SEEMED to me to be agenda-less reports that SEEMED to de-bunk the sometimes hysterical and sometimes frankly unbelievable claims coming from those who believe the use of DU to be extremely dangerous and prohibitive.
Maybe they aren’t as agenda-less as they appear. I honestly don’t know for sure, and would love for this issue to truly come out in the open so we could learn the best truth about is as possible. Obviously there are some risks, but are they justified in the context of war? One accurately placed bullet can spoil one’s whole day, too, and quite immediately, but bullets aren’t banned from the military, YET.
I would suggest petitioning reputable and fair investigative reporting media outlets, if you can find any, to take up this issue.
Like many other health and science issues, what we are led to believe by emotion and fear is often quite wrong. That can go for either side.
I appreciate jsalsman’s (James) polite and reasoned reply to my rather smart-ass questions, although I thought I did raise a valid point about believing reports emanating from Iraq during the 90’s. I don’t believe one could describe that regime and all they controlled as reliable sources of truth.
To those that insist on believing that Roger, mauk2, I and others are the same person, let me assure you, at least in MY case, that you are simply wrong. To draw conclusions from the timing of posts, for example, is far from “scientifically” adequate.
I could certainly make the same claims about you folks, but they would have no more validity or value. They would only serve to illustrate a certain paranoia, and a certain inability to argue my case on the scientific merits.
But then again, as I stated at the outset, I am not a scientist. I only pointed out that there can be much more than science involved in discerning the truth about DU.
There really shouldn’t be.
Posted by Natalie on Aug 30, 2005 at 2:04 PM
Ah, finally, someone who isn’t convinced I’m somebody else and/or calling me names. :) You guys better stop that, I’m gonna start crying.
jsalsman sez: “
Posted by mauk2 on Aug 30, 2005 at 2:31 PM
jsalsman sez: “Regarding your comment,
Posted by mauk2 on Aug 30, 2005 at 4:42 PM
From a Guardian article discussing the work of Alexandra Miller at the Armed Forces Radiobiology Research Institute in Bethesda, Maryland
When the dust settles
Depleted uranium may be far more dangerous than previously thought
and we could be dealing with the fallout for many generations.
The small change betrays a big leap in understanding the threat posed by depleted uranium. Evidence is building that DU causes more genetic damage than scientists suspected - even at levels deemed so low as to be non-toxic.
Depleted uranium shells are designed to be lethal: the metal is so dense it can crash through the heavy armour of a modern battle tank. But those who escape the intended effect face other risks. When the depleted uranium rod inside an armour-piercing shell disintegrates, it showers toxic and weakly radioactive dust and fragments over a wide area.
It is not just soldiers who risk exposure. In Iraq, land where people once lived, and will doubtless return to, is now littered with the stuff. In 1991, armour-piercing shells containing around 340 tonnes of DU were fired at targets too tough to take out with standard shells. Hundreds more tonnes have been added to that during the past four weeks. People returning to places where the shells were used breathe in the dust as it is churned up by wind and traffic. The metal can also seep into water supplies, contaminating them for years.
Alexandra Miller at the Armed Forces Radiobiology Research Institute in Bethesda, Maryland, is due to complete an investigation into DU for the US department of defence next year. Already she has some insight into the damage it can do. Last year she showed that depleted uranium from pellets implanted in rats dispersed all over the animals’ bodies, turning up in bones, muscles, kidneys and liver. Rats breeding six months later had fewer offspring than normal.
Her latest study reveals something even more unusual. When human bone cells are exposed to DU, some suffer immediate genetic damage. The type of damage varies but often fragments break off chromosomes, the strings of genes in almost every cell, and form tiny rings of genetic material. This much was expected. But as other cells evidently undamaged by the depleted uranium started to divide, creating new cells, Miller noticed the genes in some of these new cells were damaged. More than a month after the DU was removed, new cells were forming with broken chromosomes or other genetic damage. The DU was having a delayed effect.
More intriguing still is Miller’s latest suspicion that DU punches above its weight in terms of the damage it does to genes. She knew that depleted uranium could damage genes not only by emitting radiation, but by its chemical make up - like nickel, it can switch on cancer genes by its sheer toxicity. But she found that tiny amounts of DU, too small to be toxic and only mildly radioactive, cause more genetic damage in cells than either the toxicity or radiation could explain. Her latest results suggest that the toxicity and radioactivity of DU reinforce one another, causing more damage than the two just added together. It’s no small difference either. “You can get more than an eight-fold greater effect than you’d expect,” she says. In other words, more than eight times as many cells suffer genetic damage than predicted. Without taking the effect into account, the health risk of DU could be grossly underestimated.
“People have always assumed low doses are not much of a problem, but they can cause more damage than people think,” says Miller
Posted by Eadora on Aug 30, 2005 at 5:31 PM
Here is another Study discussed in a Guardian article
One person who is convinced DU-induced genetic damage causes real health problems is Albrecht Schott, a biochemist who recently retired from the Free University of Berlin. The day before the start of this Gulf war, he published a study carried out with scientists at the University of Bremen.
The study, the first of its kind, looked at genetic damage in the white blood cells of 16 former soldiers who believed they had been exposed to DU in the 1991 Gulf war or in the Balkans. They found that damage to chromosomes in the white blood cells was on average five-and-a-half times higher in the veterans than the rest of the population.
Kenny Duncan, one of the soldiers tested, was 21 when he served with the Royal Corps of Transport, helping to shift Iraqi tanks destroyed by DU shells in the 1991 Gulf war. He believes his exposure to DU has left his family with a painful legacy. His eight-year-old son suffers constant headaches and has deformed ears and toes. His two other children also have deformed toes and both suffer bowel and bladder problems. One is also partially deaf.
The reason is likely to be down to DU, says Schott. “The high levels of genetic damage we observed do not occur naturally. I believe alpha radiation from DU to be the cause of these chromosome aberrations.
“Uranium molecules in the blood can travel to every part of the body, including the areas where sperm and eggs are. This, and the presence of chromosome aberrations, increases the probability of cancer and other genetic conditions significantly. They lead to a higher probability of genetic damage in the person’s babies and then damage can be passed on to the children’s children.”
———————
Please answer the questions put to you
Posted by Eadora on August 29, 2005 at 11:15 PM
They are not technical they are moral questions. As apologists you should have no trouble answering them.
Oh and while your at it tell us why we can
Posted by Eadora on Aug 30, 2005 at 5:52 PM
Piss off Natalie. There is a lot more than timings showing who you are. The timings and tandem commenting are so obvious you must be getting desperate. Everything you say has the ring of falseness about it. If you had an open mind then you should long since have made it up. Not a single point has been established by the Colonel in his many guises. The issue of DU was not ever in doubt, hell my fourteen year old son even couldn’t believe anybody was questioning the dangers of Nuclear Waste. Lets start calling it by it’s real name people. Obviously the Shills are trying to avoid this fact among others. Now my 14 yo son attends university twice a week after school for an advanced chemistry course, he has a few clues unlike RogerNatalieMauk2. You have played the smoke and mirrors, spread the government line and in every way demonstrated that “you” have an agenda.
You’ve played the time honoured game of the mentally challenged by calling everybody else whatever they call you. You are not only coming across as a committed SHILL you have completely surrendered any claim to honour, reason or even average intelligence.
Now we have an agenda, all of us agree with the vast majority of the world’s citizens that DU weapons are and should be banned. Unlike you however, we are all obviously different people, with real minds and we are arguing independantly and have raised a number of issues which you are totally avoiding. Now if you really were two or three different people, it would seem likely that one of you would have made an attempt to answer my or Eadora’s simple questions. You havn’t, which suggests again that you are one and the same.
If indeed you are two people then the fact that this is not apparent is further proof of the very limited number of people who could try and sell such a load of blatant lies.
Natalie, you are not a female. If you think your act is in anyway female then you have obviously not known too many. Furthermore you are not open minded. You have so obviously got an agenda, do you honestly think anyone has bought your crap, why not ask who believes you? You are spouting the same smoke and mirrors tactics as well and linking to the same discredited info. SHILL baby!
Colonel go back to Roger Ramjet, at least it was more honest. mauk2 gives me an image of a scruffy, dirty seagull. We others share only our humanity and while we may share more or less of our personal ideologies with each other we don’t have to agree on everything to agree on the one thing that all educated sane people around the world know. Nuclear Waste is dangerous as Radioactive and chemical and it is even more dangerous when you use it for bombs and bullets. Stop blathering on about how dangerous war and armies are. The radiation will outlast all this races remaining years on this planet. The war may end but the death and destruction will go on long after dirty little apologists for war crimes like you are dead.
Now you are a real bozo. Since you refuse to answer my query about why Nuclear Waste was always considered to be such a disposal problem I shall have to try and guess what you would say. Its a conspiracy isn’t it BOZO, the medical associations, universities and scientists as well as the governments of most countries are all involved in a conspiracy to deprive the most powerful military nation of a useful weapon. Even a more humane one you would have us believe. Meanwhile a small band of scientists in the pay of the DU pushers is bravely fighting to bring the truth out to the world. You are a conspiracy theorist then. Fair enough, everybody else has been wrong and the USA military is the only one telling the truth, sounds reasonable. (to you maybe)
continued…
Posted by Rabbitvoz on Aug 30, 2005 at 5:56 PM
How about the fact that DU is banned as a chemical and nuclear weapon? Since the USA and Britain have deployed the stuff they have ceased to be counted among the civilized nations.
Let’s face it Bozo Shill you have been given a shit of an assignment.
“Go out and convince people that nuclear waste is no more dangerous than lead if you make boms and bullets out of it”
Seems like a tall order to me in 2005.
You have not convinced anybody of anything except that you are a military Shill. You were shown to be a liar and shill from the start of this thread and yet still you soldier desperately on. Tell us Bozo do you have any answer to the fact of DU being a banned weapon of mass destruction. Nobody is interested in your smoke and mirrors, we don’t need you to try and explain the chemistry of something you don’t even understand yourself. We already know about Nuclear waste, hell even my children wanted to know who would believe such lies when I showed them your posts.
Since you love Nuclear Waste so much I sincerely hope you are suited up in it one day. I hope you will put your money where your mouth is and start a nuclear waste disposal dump on your property. Do you realise how rich you could become? Do you know how much people are prepared to pay someone else to dispose of this stuff? Since it’s so safe you should be able to bury a few tons in your backyard and make lots of money. Or is it only safe when made into bombs and bullets then blown all over the place? Please explain oh great one of knowledge. Tell us poor deluded fools the “real” truth that our governments have been withholding from us. Tell us how nuclear waste has been unfairly vilified and is really not much more dangerous than Blue vein cheese, if you spread it on wholemeal bread.
Remember Colonel, 36 percent support and falling fast. How long before you’ll be standing in the dock as a war criminal?
Posted by Rabbitvoz on Aug 30, 2005 at 6:47 PM
From the Military Toxics Project:
DU has been processed and tested at dozens of locations throughout the U.S., creating extensive contamination.
- The National Lead Industries factory in Colonie, NY, closed in 1980 after DU particles were found 26 miles away and DU levels in soil were 500 times higher than neighboring areas. (Len Dietz, 1996)
- The Starmet plant in Concord, MA dumped 400,000 pound of DU and other toxic substances into an unlined pit over twenty-five years. DU contaminated soil and groundwater, and is moving toward drinking water supplies. (Citizens Research and Environmental Watch, Concord, MA)
- The former Jefferson Proving Ground in Madison, IN contains over 150,000 pounds of DU shells and fragments. The U.S. Army wants to walk away from the contamination without performing any cleanup or ongoing environmental monitoring. (U.S. Army & Nuclear Regulatory Commission)
Health and Environmental Damage
When a DU shell hits a hard target such as a tank or building, it burns and produces a tiny ceramic dust that can be inhaled. These particles can remain in the environment for many years, travel for miles on air currents, re-suspend into the air when disturbed, and migrate into soil and groundwater. DU particles that are ingested or inhaled can lodge in the lungs, bones, kidneys, and reproductive organs and cause damage through radiation and toxic properties. Studies have linked DU exposure with damage to the kidneys; immune, nervous, respiratory, and reproductive systems; cancer; and genetic mutations.
Research over the past decade has produced increasing evidence that DU can harm humans.
- DU has been found in the urine of Gulf War veterans and Iraqi civilians eight years after exposure. (Rosalie Bertell, Ph.D, GNSH, Gulf War Illness Conference, 1999)
- Animal studies found that DU lodges in high concentrations in a variety of organs; causes changes to the brain; crosses the placenta to the fetus; and is associated with mutations. (U.S. Armed Forces Radiobiology Institute)
- A recent U.S. military study found that DU damages the chromosomes that carry human genes. (U.S. Armed Forces Radiobiology Institute)
- Radioactive and toxic properties of DU appear to reinforce each other, causing more extensive damage than the properties would separately.
Posted by Eadora on Aug 30, 2005 at 7:22 PM
Yoh Natalie
I apologize if I have seemed over zealous. But there have been a lot of
Posted by Eadora on Aug 30, 2005 at 7:32 PM
SAVE 53% OFFTHE NEWSSTAND PRICE!
Reader Comments
‘
I thought I was “on top of things”, but I never knew the United States was using Depleted Uranium weapons. Why don’t we just call them dirty bombs, which is exactly what they are. Not only were soldiers affected, but children were, too. This is the culture of life?
So far, this war makes it seem as though the United States:
- Encourages torture
- Disregards our own citizens’ Constitutional rights whenever it’s convenient
- Likes to spread radioactive contamination
- Cares more about oil than women’s rights
- Will destroy anyone (and his CIA-agent wife) who comes out against the war
- Doesn’t give a darn about the U.N.
- Currently has the “W"orst President EVER
This is not the country I thought I lived in. I feel like I’ve been duped my whole life.
This is not new. The use of depleted uranium in Iraq goes back to the First Gulf War, and the toll on Iraqi children through death and deformity has been documented by humanitarian groups through the years.
This will play out just as Agent Orange did in Vietnam. The government will conclude that there are no side effects to DU, and that the soldiers and their children are delusional. Such is the price of being a pawn in wars of choice.
My greater concern is with the silence of the Congress. There is not a crime committed by this administration which has been challenged or questioned or even acknowledged by the large majority of inactive men and women in Washington.
If you are concerned about the apathy, intimidation, and/or lemming behavior of your own person in Congress, read this editorial through. Then print it out and mail it to your personal Washington Wimp if the shoe fits. It probably will.
The article, from TvNewsLIES.org begins like this:
“What shameful toads you are! Yes you, our elected lawmakers. Yes you, the folks we sent to Washington in our names. Yes you, the most spineless, cowardly and craven Congress people in history. Yes you, the most bullied, gutless and shameful herd of legislators ever elected. And you know exactly who you are.”
To read it all
CLICK HERE
Question: Why aren’t stories like this plastered all over the mainstream media? 2nd question:Why is it that the only really positive opinions about Cindy Sheehan are posted in the “letters to the editor section of your daily newspaper? Our beloved country has been taken over by evil nazis,and it seems that nobody cares.
For more info:
Health Physics is the radiation safety group.
http://www.hps.org/
Also, if something can “remain radioactive for billions of years” then it must not be putting out much radiation; otherwise it would decay away.
The most you have here is the chemical toxicity danger, not much traction on the radioactivity line.
‘The most you have is the chemical toxicity, not much traction on the radioactivity line’
Are you dismissing the implications of heavy metal poisoning? DU does has radioactive properties but it is also a heavy metal. Very heavy. Its particulate properties - (nanoparticles)- are also disturbing but the chemical effects are quite toxic.
The reported symptoms seem more complex than straightforward radiation poisoning. Most likely the radioactive, particulate, and chemical properties in DU exacerbate each other.
These symptoms in young, previously healthy ‘warriors’ points to exposure to several toxins, not only DU (chemical fires etc.)so it is true that DU is one of many exposures, but it is still deadly. This suggests we should be conducting post theater surveillance for symptoms over time. We may not learn everything they’ve been exposed to, but at the very least we can help them get the benefits they deserve.
Some other reports on the subject:
Seattle PI
Rolling Stone
Scott Peterson reported the following in the 1999 Middle East Journal:
“How likely, then, is DU to cause health problems? The answer depends on who you ask. Atomic scientists calculate that each alpha particle can break hundreds of thousands of molecular bonds. There is no shortage of this energy: Every gram of DU produces 12,000 alpha particles per second.”
In the same article, Ron Kathren, academic and radiation expert cited on the issue at jsong123’s http://www.hps.org tries to downplay the theoretical health risks posed by DU but is contradicted by other experts who emphasize the volume of particularized DU released in battlefield situations.
Another great article
Hello Dr. D,
Answer to both questions 1 & 2: they’re either afraid or complicitous. The mainstream networks and publications are afraid they’ll get tagged as traitors by shrill pro-Bush pundits, or they’re in agreement with the idea that criticism of the government’s policies, even fair and reasonable criticism, is unpatriotic or anti-American.
As for radioactivity v. metallic toxicity, when it comes to taking care of those who have risked their lives and health in war, it doesn’t matter. The government and the entire country is morally obligated not to shirk, not to short-change on this issue. They owe medical care to these people regardless of the health problems that arise from wartime injury or illness. By the way, I submit that the supposed debatability about the properties and risks of DU weapons is a sham; they’ve been used and studied for years. skipper7 hit the nail on the head with the Agent Orange comparison. Disgusting.
Something in me wants to say that health care provision for militars should go without saying, but of course I already know better than that.
The cost of this war will go way beyond the casualties in Iraq . They will permeate our culture for years in the same way Viet Nam did and even more so. PTSD is already surfacing. How ill our mental health system bear that burden? How about domestic violence? Medical costs for the wounded that even ten years ago may not have survived..and of course, genetic defects.
And mostly, the psyche of this country ahs been destroyed.
See you all at the demo in September!
Jsong who are you trying to fool? The background radiation levels in Baghdad today are the equivelant of having a chest x-ray every two hours. Day and night, seven days a week that is sunshine. You might also note how much radiation has been released in Iraq, “this time around” the amount corresponds to the same amount of radiation released from 40, 000 Nagasaki size atom bombs!
By the way Jong didn’t you read the article? The soldiers tested positive and the Baby is deformed. So much for your hopeful theorising.
To read the truth about this war crime see:
http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=1776
Trained, armed, hyper-patriotic young men who know they have been tricked pose the greatest threat to tyranny.
Hypocrites. Motherfucking, evil, base hypocrites. Pardon my language, I just can’t think of any better way to describe these vipers.
Where to begin? Remember how bad Hussein was, he gassed his own people, used bio/chem weapons in the Iraq/Iran war? And we’re supposed to be so much BETTER than that? By spewing this venomous filth into populated areas?
I’m proud to be a citizen and part of this country, warts and all. But I can’t fathom anyone reading stories like this and not feeling the sting and burn of utter, abject shame.
Dr. Jawad Al-Ali head oncologist of the largest hospital in Basra reported over sixty cases of multiple cancers within one family, with some individuals having multiple cancers, all due to DU exposure. Just the small tip of a huge iceberg. As for birth defects, they are averaging 1-2 per day, in one hospital in Iraq. Mothers no longer ask, “Is it a boy or a girl,” but, “is it normal doctor?” We have poisoned two entire countries
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ned;=&q=leuren+moret&btnmeta;=search=search=Search+the+Web
http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com/id432.html
You won’t find this material on MSM.
Thank God for the Internet.
Bests,
John
vpocv@comcast.net
Here’s an idea. Let’s everyone send this article on DU damage to our troops to Bill OReily at Fox News. If enough of us clog his in-box maybe he’ll take time to read it. It might also help some if we were to drop some GOP names…
SD Jayne
A chilling flash animation on DU by BushFlash.com: http://www.bushflash.com/pl_lo.html
This quote from another thread on ITT is so apt I had to repeat it:
“The U.S. never was bothered by Saddam’s atrocities when he was a pawn in America’s MidEast strategy, but when he took an independent course, that is when all the rhetoric about his atrocities and suppression began to surface. The U.S. took Saddam out because he was no longer serving America’s interests. The Bush administration acted out of its own selfishness, the rhetoric about freedom and democracy was just the conveneient cover story to give to the American people. “
Posted by Liberal on August 24, 2005 at 1:33 PM
http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/2291/
What is shameful is the fate of all who suffer, and who will suffer, from warfare poison. It is shameful for military authorities to willfully use these poisons anywhere on God’s green earth. Children of the future are already paying a terrible price.
Thank you ITT for covering this story. I watched a segment recently about recent Iraq veterans and the treatment (or lack of treatment) they receive is appalling. The media needs to be covering the atrocious effects of the war, on U.S. service veterans and Iraqis alike, more thoroughly and graphically instead of playing cheerleaders for death.
Somehow or other the “evidence” of Saddam gassing his own people has met the same standards as him having WMD. The Pix of dead woman and children DOES NOT SHOW HOW THEY DIED.
Saddam was no where near as bad as Idi Amin and Pinochet, and Negroponte for that matter.
Bests,
John McCarthy
vpocv@comcast.net
http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com
Update link in left colum at top of home page.
Many, many people care about the horror of war and the horror perpetrated by the Bush administration. They talk to us when we demonstrate against the war. Rage, grieve, reason, but do not despair. Above all act!
There is no forseeable end to US policy, domestic as well as international. We’ve intervened and used depleted uranium liberally in former Yugoslavia and Iraq, and we’re now looking down our sights at Iran and Syria.
You’ll find some clues as to why Iran is our next target, here:
Killing the dollar in Iran
http://tinyurl.com/8q95q
The US is a cornered nation. The Administration is scared. Israel acts as our alarm clock, since it depends on our support for its survival. Our economy is virtually on the brink.
If we the aware and vigilant do not voice our opinions as never before, we will bear reponsible for having been accomplices to war crimes.
Countless website forums point out the crimes against peace and crimes against humanity, all established as WAR CRIMES by the US led International War Crimes Trial held in Nuremberg in 1946. We hanged folks for the same crimes Bush is perping on the Arab Nations. How much more can those 55 million people take before they sucker us in for the final treatment. We have ruined their civilization in Iraq. DU has a half life of 4.5 billion years. hooray for Bush, Cheney and the rogue bunch of Constitutional rapers.
Bests,
John
http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com
vpocv@comcast.net
Dear Gerard Matthew,
Why don’t you go down to Crawford, Texas, and stand with Cindy Sheehan—and demand answers from bush about WHY DU is being used in Iraq? And why veteran’s babies are being born deformed? And why vetran’s wives are coming down with mysterious ailments after their precious husbands come home from the war zone? And WHY is Iraq being transformed into a genocidal wasteland, with a slow radiation-poisoning death being decreed for a vast number of civilians? (As well as for our own troops??)
You have standing, and the right to demand answers, especially with your adorable daughter’s health problems.
It is appalling how the mass media ignores DU, and how few Americans understand DU, or the atrocitites that are being perpetrated in our names, with everlasting consequences…
YOU have the chance to stand up now, and be a hero by helping to end this dreadful war.
Cassandra
What is really appalling is how many lies have been spread about DU munitions. If you want to learn more about this .. go to the seven article series by a long time investigative reporter Bob Evans of the Newport News Daily Press.
From the second article of the series .. Of Rodents and Radiation - Ch 2 - From the Nose to the Brain
http://www.dailypress.com/news/specials/dp-du2,0,4684968.story?coll=dp-special-news
“The issue is chemical, not radiologic, risk,” says Melissa A. McDiarmid of the University of Maryland School of Medicine and the VA hospital in Baltimore. McDiarmid directs the government’s monitoring of Gulf War veterans with shrapnel in their bodies and has participated in other government-financed research.
McDiarmid says the tiny amount of black depleted uranium dust that a soldier could inhale several hundred feet away from an explosion is inconsequential. Even if particles are inhaled in that scenario, they wouldn’t constitute a big enough dose of radiation or toxic chemical to change lives, she says. Fifty years of research based on the experiences of workers in the uranium mining, milling and processing industries prove that scientists have good models to use to compute what is - and isn’t - a harmful dose of inhaled uranium, whether it’s depleted or not, she says.
McDiarmid thinks that we do know enough to reach the conclusion that inhaled depleted uranium isn’t a significant radiological danger. And she thinks that the failure to acknowledge this might be hurting ill veterans from the Persian Gulf War.
“What we have here is a witch hunt for an explanation,” she says, fed by the public’s fear of radiation and fanned by opponents of the weapon and ignorance of the actual science.
“The thing I’m worried about with everybody chasing depleted uranium is that we’re missing the boat,” she insists.
With so much attention on depleted uranium, other possible causes for the veterans’ illnesses go unexplored and the veterans aren’t helped.
Her most recent research paper about the veterans with shrapnel in their bodies also points to another risk of pursuing this line of inquiry into depleted uranium, known by scientists and others as “DU.”
For facts about DU from genuine experts not people who are cheerleaders against nuclear power and the war, go to the Health Physics Society www.hps.org and to their DU Fact Sheet at http://hps.org/documents/dufactsheet.pdf
Roger
“Dr. Doug Rokke, a health physicist at the University of Illinois who headed up a Pentagon study of depleted uranium weapons in the mid ’90s after concerns were raised during the Gulf War, concluded there was no safe way to use the weapons. Rokke says the Pentagon responded by denouncing him, after earlier commending his work.”
The article makes the above claim about Douglas Lind Rokke, Phd, Education, with regards to his qualifications to claim expertise on DU. As a Lieutenant in the Army Reserve, Rokke was activated for Desert Storm and in that role was a member of a team which observed some sites with Iraqi tanks that had been hit with DU munitions. Rokke claims to have led that team, but he did not. He was not qualified. He is not a Health Physicist. He does have a Phd, but it is in Education and his dissertation was not on laboratory experiments or research on radiation or DU, but is titled “Perceived physics concepts needed to teach secondary technology
education as general education” and is on file in the University of Illinois library.
Rokke was subsequently employed as a civilian at the Army Radiation Laboratory at Fort McClellan, Alabama. He was fired from that position for failure to perform. He did not head up a study which concluded that there is no safe way to use DU munitions.
Rokke can not support the claims made on behalf of his own experience, let alone the wild claims that he has made about DU.
Roger
Dear Roger:
Here is what it has come to: I don’t believe a single thing that you posted. I will not bother to check your links or the articles you referred to. I assume that they are all lies.
At this point, I automatically assume that anyone supporting the Bush administration and their policies is either a moron, a useful idiot, or a shill. I would categorize you as somewhere between useful idiot and shill, with the proponderance of evidence toward shill.
There has been no truth forthcoming from the Bush administration or the Pentagon. Zero. All lies and spin. Possibly you are bamboozled by it? I doubt that, which is why I gravitate towards shill in my estimate of you.
This is what happens, eventually, to liars and their supporters. Intelligent and informed people start to assume that everything they say is a lie, based on past experience. Do you like being automatically placed in the rank of liars? Get used to it.
By the way, no one who knows me or reads my writing would dream of calling me a liberal. Although I do get called other things, liberal isn’t one of them.
m-astera ..
Nothing like burning the book before even reading the cover. The anti-DU movement is not anti-Bush; it has just co-opted the anti-Bush people. I am not pro-Bush either, but I do not believe in spreading lies that are costing American lives.
I am not used to being in the rank of liars .. I expose liars, so you get used to it.
Roger
Quote: “I do not believe in spreading lies that are costing
American lives.”
Interesting. Would you care to explain how posting information on uranium poisoning is costing American lives?
The Government has not been caring for vets exposed to uranium for a long time. A Titan missle was blown on the pad in December 1975 on Johnston Atoll. Every day the levels of uranium are measured on the island. Persons who served on the island have not been included as of yet in any study or work on depleted uranium. Persons who served on Johnston Atoll need to be included in any studies and compensation.
Ditto from Rabbit, Roger.
Like I said, the troops have measured positive to high radiation, the babies are being born deformed and the background radiation levels can and have been measured.
Any theorising by you is past the point of relevance, you nincompoop. Go back to denying Agent Orange, stooges, you havn’t convinced anyone that didn’t happen yet.
The ONLY reason the US and Great Britain use DU is because of its mental hardening properties and the fact that DU is free. Titanium will do the same thing that DU does to harden metal and strengthen its penetrating properties—but we would have to pay for titanium in making our munitions. Australia signed off the DU wagon train a while back. So it’s just us and the Brits!
W told the only truth he’s ever told. There are WMD’s in Iraq and we brought them with us!
m_astera
If Roger posted the sentence “The sky is blue”, would you agree?
He is talking about DU and you are talking about presidential policies.
DU has been used by alot more presidents than just Bush. I doubt that Bush knows much about DU, it is something the military has developed when they switched from using tungsten.
Sorry I brought up the word tungsten.
When the Pentagon actively resists proper testing of troops for what are at the very least legitimate concerns, a stooge like Roger thinks it’s OK and yet he talks about supporting the troops. Why can’t you lamebrained, truth ducking American goons call a spade a spade. When you say support the troops what you really mean is support the war. You allowed those troops to attack a sovereign nation based upon proven lies. You have no doubt argued for each of the replacement lies in turn as they have been announced with the usual absolute certainty in each their turn as the previous lies unravelled. You are doing it again, which is why nobody who matters any more takes you seriously. Whether or not you join is not important. You should be shackled to the consequences of your denial when the bell tolls for the Beasts in the whitehouse. You and all those who would support any of the evil acts of an utterly insane leadership on the brink of trashing the planet for everybody.
That’s what bugs me about you Roger, when that time comes and it is fast approaching, you and all your type will scuttle away and be lost to us when it comes time for justice. Mark these people well friends, make lists of the ones you know. If only we could get them to tattoo themselves with some permanent mark. Perhaps if Bush or Condi could come up with “Freedom Tattoos” to help show all those peace loving extremists what’s what. We’d net a fair percentage of the clowns and we could keep track of them with their own security network when people rule their own destinies again.
The chemical toxicity of inhaled uranium trioxide (uranyl oxide) gas vapor fumes is much worse—about a million times worse—than the radiation from inhalation of any of the other oxides. The armed forces sadly missed the fact that about 1/5th of uranium which burns in air produces UO3 gas vapor instead of the dusts from the other oxides which are obvious. The UO3(g) vapor does not settle out of the atmosphere; instead, it disperses as an invisible, odorless cloud, and is absorbed into the bloodstream almost immedately when it is inhaled. The details are in one of my NRC petitions here:
http://www.bovik.org/du/du-petition.html
If we have any hope for a solution to this problem, we must ask the following of the U.S. government:
1. Please submit a public comment asking that the NRC take uranium’s chemical toxicity into account when setting acceptable inhalaton and ingestion limits for soluble uranium compounds. You can do this on the web by reading the NRC rulemaking petition and following the comment instructions here:
http://ruleforum.llnl.gov/cgi-bin/rulemake?source=PRM_2026&st=petitions-a
Comments must be received by August 29, 2005.
2. The CDC’s Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry (ATSDR) should cite the reproductive chemical toxicity
of uranium in their toxicology publications. The teratogenicity
of uranium has been known for more than half a century, and is
well-documented, along with uranium’s developmental toxicity, in
several peer-reviewed medical and scientific publications, but
no mention of it can be found in ATSDR publications.
3. The Army and other pyrophoric uranium munitions NRC licensees
should admit the quantity of UO3(g) vapor produced by such
weapons, from the results of their own emperical observation.
4. The Navy’s DoD Birth and Infant Health Registry should, in
their epidemiological studies, measure the congenital
malformation incidence rate of exposed 1991 Operation Desert
Storm veterans, instead of avoiding any study of them as a class
in their recent draft Annual Reports, e.g.:
http://www.bovik.org/du/mscusn/BIHR_annual_report_1998.pdf
http://www.bovik.org/du/mscusn/BIHR_annual_report_1999.pdf
http://www.bovik.org/du/mscusn/BIHR_annual_report_2000.pdf
This is especially important because published studies of that
same epidemiological category upon which DoD BIHR scientists
have publicly commented indicate that the class has
significant and substantial increases in their birth defect
incidence rate, which is apparently increasing over time:
http://www.bovik.org/du/mscusn/BD_Infants_GWV_AR_AZ_CA_GA_HI_IA_1989-1993.pdf
5. The Army should admit that if UO3 forms from U oxides UO2
through U3O8 by weathering, then the uranyl ions are likely to
mobilize and wash away into the water table simultaneously, and
so they should begin testing the water table in sites such as
Jefferson Proving Ground, Indiana, Vieques, Puerto Rico, and
Basrah, Iraq to see if they can find out what happened to the
missing UO3 which their chemists have been expecting.
Sincerely,
James Salsman
You all have have missinterpretaded my strategery for using delapidated uranium in our current march to freedom in Iraq. You see, it’s part of my current energy plan, for conserving our energy, during our current energy crisis… uh… I mean fiasco. When our troops return home from being eratiated when exposed to delapitated uranium they bring all that energy with them, and when it gets dark at night, you don’t have to use electric lights, cause your body will glow in the dark. It also saves hospitals from having to using x-ray equipment, which uses lots of them energies I was talking about ealier.
This is a long digression from the subject of DU exposure so I will make it a separate comment.
Michaelvet changes the subject by what apparently is his personal experience at Johnston Island where two nuclear armed Thor missiles blew up on the launch pad in 1962. The Plutonium (not Uranium) contamination was cleaned up within the past 5 years and Johnson Atoll is now a bird sanctuary. If Michael believes he has ill effects from exposure to Plutonium, he should see the VA.
More about the Plutonium contamination of Johnson Atoll is found at
http://www.kahea.org/lcr/pdf/JohnstonHawaii5-11.pdf which is to prepare the public for a pre-cleanup meeting in Hawaii.
The Defense Threat Reduction Agency (DTRA) and its legacy organizations have been responsible for the cleanup of radioactive contamination on Johnston Atoll from two aborted missile launches in 1962. DTRA legacy organizations began cleanup of the atoll immediately to resume testing activities. Plutonium oxide and americium, a decay product of plutonium, were the contaminants of concern. Early efforts included the establishment of a fenced, 24-acre Radiological Control Area on Johnston Island for consolidating contaminated material found throughout the atoll during radiological surveys.
http://www.dtra.mil/press_resources/fact_sheets/fs_includes/ja.cfm not only contains the above but explains how the contamination has been contained and Johnson Atoll closed.
http://www.dtra.mil/about/media/historical_documents/environmental/decision.cfm gives more a more in-depth description of the accidents and remediation procedures.
http://www.vic-info.org/RegionsTop.nsf/0/1bc2b18b269be3888a256a500082dd6e?OpenDocument
confirms that the Atoll is now a bird sanctuary
3. Discussion: Johnston Atoll is the site of widely divergent activities by the U.S. Government. As a National Wildlife Refuge, the area is a habitat for seabirds, shorebirds. In the 1960’s, the U.S. established the site as an above ground atmospheric nuclear and missile testing range; of significance was the launch failure of two Thor missiles—one scattered plutonium on the island and nearby reef in 1962. Since that time, DTRA was responsible for the plutonium clean-up project on the Atoll and recently completed its efforts by building a landfill that reduces the levels of radiation on all areas of the island to acceptable levels. With the recent departure of all military personnel from the island, Johnston Atoll, once again, returns to its original designation as National Wildlife Refuge. It is a refuge with an isolated airfield, strong historical ties to the military, and is 579 acres larger than its original size in 1923—but a refuge nonetheless.
Roger
m_astera asked
Quote: “I do not believe in spreading lies that are costing American lives.”
Interesting. Would you care to explain how posting information on uranium poisoning is costing American lives?
Simple, when the information is not true and it is used to recruit suicide bombers. If I thought that another country had deliberately spread a terrible poison on my country, I would give my life to fight that other country. Lies spread by American anti-DU activists like Rokke spread all over the world at lightning speed. I would be surprised if Al Jazeera and radical Islamist sites do not already have this article posted.
Roger
Roger wrote, “If I thought that another country had deliberately spread a terrible poison on my country, I would give my life to fight that other country.”
What would you do if your country did it and you couldn’t figure out whether it was accidental or deliberate?
“Roger” from “Ramjet” is either a government disinformation agent or just an ignorant rightwing antagonist, as should be evident from his unwillingness to give his identity and address.
In fact, Dr. Douglas Rokke, who holds the rank of captain, not lieutenant as stated by “Roger”, not only headed up the DU project, which included test explosions of DU weapons in the Nevada desert, and not only is described in U of Ill. literature as a “health physicist”, he received a letter of commendation from Gen, Shinseki.
On Dec. 3, 1995, On June 30, 1995, a letter of recommendation for the Army
Commendation medal and the Meritorious service medal described his title as “the depleted uranium project manager.”
His “Achievement no. 1, was: “Researched, identified, and
staffed radiological research data requirements for the live fire test.”
Achievement No. 2 was: “Participated in live fire lethality test as a radiological and battle damage assessment analysts.”
Achievement No. 3 was: “Performed research and data collection duties under hazardous conditions.”
Achievement No. 4 was: “Provided exceptional technical assistance and guidance to all team members during all test phase [sic].”
The letter continued: “Your performance of
duty reflects great credit upon yourself and the United States Army.”
“Roger” should either identify himself and lay out his evidence concretely, or he should go back under his rock.
Dave Lindorff, author of the above article
dlindorff@yahoo.com
www.thiscantbehappening.net
Addemdum,
The cowardly “Roger” would appear to be one Lt Colonel Roger Helbig, United States Air Force, whom Dr. Rokke says works at the Pentagon and has been regularly attacking him. This is, in other words, most likely an official—if hidden—effort by the Pentagon and the White House to try to keep the DU story from gaining mainstream traction. As Rokke says, “He is one more of those associated with the Pentagon who must attack in order to susatain dU use and avoid all liability for its illegal
use.
Given his position and his deception about it, I think the veracity of his trumped up charges regarding Dr. Rokke should be accorded the same credibility as the president’s claim of WMDs in Iraq: ie, it’s a bunch of crap.
Dave Lindorff
author of the above story
dlindorff@yahoo.com
www.thiscantbehappening.net
Good job dlindorff and jsalsman. It is good to see an author stand up for his article and refute deliberate misinformation. (I am checking our your site.)
How can we let the truth be hijacked by gov’t hacks afraid of “suicide bombers”? Like telling the truth would encourage murder? Good God! Maybe if the military would not engage in so much deception and poison the world would see less revenge.
Ah, Yes, Tungsten. Sort of expensive. And it is/was an alternative to DU, but DU is Free and while we use it to harden munitions and make airplane wings stronger it saves us from having to dispose of it.
During WWII, the good folks at the Manhatten Project wrote that DU was classified as an area deniability weapon and could be used as a backup if the atomic bomb failed to function as designed. THE US GOVERNMENT KNEW IN 1943 THAT DU WAS A WEAPON OF MASS DESTRUCTION.
Any one who does not think so deserves a tour of Iraq, breathe the wonderful air, drink the water, eat the plants…..then come back to the States and provide us with offspring that have no deformities.
http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com/id245.html
Have a nice day!
Bests,
John McCarthy
http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com
vpocv@comcast.net
DU is a backup for the atomic bomb? How would that work; if the atomic bomb did not explode then we would drop DU on the enemy and it would do what?
jsong, try any of this on for size and get back to me with your opine.
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ned;=&q=leuren+moret&btnmeta;=search=search=Search+the+Web
Bests,
John McCarthy
http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com
vpocv@comcast.net
The following post is MAJOR (NOT LIEUTENANT!) Dr. Doug Rokke’s response to the disinformation being spread by the Pentagon about him courtesy of the above “Roger” of “Ramjet”.
Depleted Uranium Situation Requires Action
By President Bush and Prime Minister Blair
posted by Dr. Doug Rokke, Ph.D.
August 27, 2005
David Lindorff has writen a very good article on DU. This article resulted
in renewed personal attacks against me by LTC Roger Helbig, USAF, who has been
spearhesding efforts to sustain DU use and ensure DOD officials are not help
responsible for using weapons of mass destruction - dirty bombs against
civilian polulations and miltary targets. The issue here is whether or not DOD
officials will provide mandated medical care for DU casualties and clean up
environmental contamination. Why is LTC Helbig refusing to help me / us ensure that
DOD officials comply with regulatory requirements? Could it be that he
believes that DOD officials are exempt from compliance with their own regulations?
I am tired of the personal attacks because I have attempted for years
to ensure that DOD and now British, and NATO officials provide medical care
to all DU casualties and that they clean up all contamination where they have
manufactured, tested, or used DU munitions.
Specifically section 2-4 of United States Army Regulation-AR 700-48 dated
September 16, 2002 requires that:
(1) “Military personnel “identify, segregate, isolate, secure, and label all
RCE” (radiologically contaminated equipment).
(2) “Procedures to minimize the spread of radioactivity will be implemented
as soon as possible.”
(3) “Radioactive material and waste will not be locally disposed of through
burial, submersion, incineration, destruction in place, or abandonment” and
(4) “All equipment, to include captured or combat RCE, will be surveyed,
packaged, retrograded, decontaminated and released IAW Technical Bulletin
9-1300-278, DA PAM 700-48” (Note: Maximum exposure limits are specified in Appendix F).
The past and current use of uranium weapons, the release of radioactive
components in destroyed U.S. and foreign military equipment, and releases of
industrial, medical, research facility radioactive materials have resulted in
unacceptable exposures.
The extent of adverse health and
environmental effects of uranium weapons
contamination is not limited to combat zones but includes facilities and
sites where uranium weapons were manufactured or tested including Vieques, Puerto
Rico, Colonie, New York, and Jefferson Proving Grounds, Indiana. Therefore
medical care must be provided by the United States Department of Defense
officials to all individuals affected by the manufacturing, testing, and/or use of
uranium munitions.
I am amazed that fourteen years after was asked to clean
up the initial DU mess from Gulf War 1 and almost ten years since I finished
the depleted uranium project that United States Department of Defense officials
and mauy others still attempt to justify uranium munitions use while ignoring
mandatory requirements.
Finally continued compliance with the infamous March 1991 Los Alamos Memorandum
(http://www.tv.cbc.ca/national/pgminfo/du/doc1.html) that was issued to ensure
continued use of uranium munitions can not be justified.
In conclusion: the President of the United States- George W. Bush and
The Prime Minister of Great Britain-Tony Blair must acknowledge and accept
responsibility for willful use of illegal uranium munitions- their own
“dirty bombs”- resulting in adverse health and environmental effects.
References-
http://www.traprockpeace.org/twomemos.html
http://www.traprockpeace.org/rokke_du_3_ques.html
http://www.traprockpeace.org/du_dtic_wakayama_Aug2002.html
John McCarthy
Based on your answer to my question, I now understand the situation, i.e. you don’t know how DU could be used as a backup for the atomic bomb.
Yoh!
Ramjet henceforth A.K.A. “Willful Ignorance”
Please return to top of Thread.
And review.
Then try and Sell your crap to “Gerard Matthew”
Then return your head into the bucket of sand
jsong,
you took 13 minutes to peruse ALL the DU articles on ALL the pages…..you are one fast reader and must be applying as a disinformation specialist.
You are out of your league, son.
Not so Bests,
John McCarthy
I don’t see any reason to “peruse ALL the DU articles on ALL the pages”, as you seem to want me to.
You stated that DU could be used as a backup for an atomic weapon, and I asked you how that would work.
Obviously you don’t know what you are talking about.
You could tell me how DU can be used as a backup to an atomic weapon, if you know. If you don’t know don’t worry, and don’t call me names.
Jsong,
As Gilda Radner would say: “Never mind”.
Intercourse; the art of communicating…..lost on some poor souls who don’t want to be confused with the facts as their minds are already made up. Oh, well….bye bye
Is it a needless tragedy that innocent children are suffering the effects of depleted uranium? Obviously that question is a no-brainer…but I wonder why there doesn’t seem to be very much concern for the innocent Iraqi or Afghani children who are not just ‘exposed’ to depleted uranium…they have to live with it forever…along with their children for thousands of generations. So who is really the war criminal that is currently using weapons of mass destruction?
brianetilley,
This page of my site answers part of your question.
http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com/id245.html
Bests,
John McCarthy
http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com
vpocv@comcast.net
Jsong:
Do you understand what a “dirty bomb” is?
That is how uranium/plutonium contamination can be used for “area deniability” and long term damage. At the time of the Manhattan project, they did not really know if atomic weapons would explode, but they knew that the bomb would at least blow up (because of the TNT charge) and scatter radioactive particles over a wide area.
Apologies to John McCarthy, I just couldn’t stand it. : )
Interestingly, there is a school of thought that claims atomic bombs DO NOT work, that the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were actually just enormous TNT firebombs that were laced with radioactives. I won’t argue pro or con on that, but it is certainly an interesting idea, and would explain why we haven’t had any use of nuclear bombs since, although the military has certainly used every other damn weapon they’ve ever come up with.
m_astera,
Cudos!
As a point of interest, the 20,000 feet of color film taken in Nagasaki and Hiroshima was classified Top Secret from 1945 until sometime in the ninties, when it was declassified and placed in a filing cabinet per directions of the Atomic Energy Commission. Only 16 minutes of the original film were aired earlier this month on cable networks Sundance Channel in a one hour program. The rest remain “to horrible” for the American public to view, because they might object to newer weapons being tested in the fifties and sixties that were thousands of times more powerful.
Interesting note: The Hiroshima bomb, 12-15 kilo ton (they are not sure, just as they don’t know why the proposed 8 megton bomb detonated in the Pacific in the early fifities went off at 13 megaton with disastrous results) was detonated by a barometric device 5000 feet above the city and called a ‘clean’ bomb because it did not place radiated earth into the atmosphere…..nasty business, eh?
Thanks!
Bests,
John McCarthy
http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com
vpocv@comcast.net
Do you understand what a
I’m no scientist, certainly, but I have read several articles about DU that seem pretty authoritative and conclusive. Basically, DU is not a significant danger chemically (heavy metal poisoning) and even less radioactively.
It makes a lot of sense for scare mongers to latch on to the uranium and ignore depleted. Uranium = highly radioactive in most people’s minds. Similarly, hysterics over irradiated foods are fueled by the notion that they are being somehow “radioactivated”, or turned into some kind of dangerous mutation.
Not to say that we shouldn’t always be on the lookout for health threats, but consider the fact that DU enables our military to be better protected by superior armor plating, and better armed with more effective weapons than their opponents. This surely saves hundeds of lives and must be weighed against any possible health threats from DU.
Genetically modified foods, chemical fertilizers and effective pesticides enable us to feed millions of people that otherwise would starve.
DDT was banned amidst vastly overblown reports of toxicity. Now millions die of malaria that might have otherwise lived.
Don’t get me wrong. I’m as concerned with genuine health risks as the next person. But I’m also concerned when hysterical unfounded pseudo-science ends up generating the precise opposite of it’s stated intent. Costing, instead of saving lives.
Hello Natalie,
I am no scientist either. But Leuren Moret is.
Google her name please.
http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com/id155.html
Bests,
John McCarthy
http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com/
Yoh! Natalie
Please be INFORMED! Do just a little honest research outside the boundaries of your own political bias and preconceptions.
http://omega.twoday.net/stories/521143
http://www.dissidentvoice.org/July2004/Moret0721.htm
Depleted Uranium is 70% as radioactive as the purified variety.
It is nasty deadly stuff.
When will you people cease being “Willfully Ignorant” and deal with the FACTS.
Or go make yourself a DU sandwich.
Well, Natalie, I’m sorry that others here have been rude to you, but before you make up your mind about DU, please read this article from the U.S. Armed Forces Radiobiology Institute published in the peer-reviewed medical literature:
A.C. Miller, et al., “Depleted uranium-catalyzed oxidative DNA damage: absence of significant alpha particle decay,” Journal of Inorganic Biochemistry, vol. 91 (2002), pp. 246
To All of the
Why, Thank you Eadora!
“It is dangerous to be right when your government is wrong”. Voltaire
“One can ignore the facts but one cannot change the facts.” Author Unknown
Bests,
John McCarthy
http://johnmccarthy90066.tripod.com
vpocv@comcast.net
vpocv@hotmail.com —google this addy for 500 plus pages!
Roger? OH, Roger where have you gone? Well done Dlindorf for calling that one. It seems you were right about Col Ramjet, he was too stupid to realise that he was not being taken seriously but naming the prick must have come as a shock for him.
Excuse me Natalie if Rabbit is wrong here but the timing of your appearance and something about the tone suggests a possible alter ego of the Roger Ramjet. I can just picture this Helbig dressing up in a skirt while he plays the Natalie role, not that it is entirely necessary, but he enjoys it more that way. We’ll soon see, because the truth and science about all this is not hard to understand actually so don’t let anyone claim otherwise. Rabbit has quite good Physics and Chemistry background and is an experienced pyrotechnic chemist in particular.
m-astera interesting thought, do you have any source for the Atom bomb doubts?.
jsong shouldn’t be fed. Whatever he is, he is not someone who knows or wants to know anything. Even Roger had more going for him, at least he made an effort to be convincing. What these disinformation types fail to understand is how the Internet is complete anathema to their efforts. Never before was so much effort applied for so little result, it must really be bugging them. I wish they could comprehend how deep the contempt we feel when we recognise their cowardice and stupidity.
Now Natalie, if you are not just The Ramjet Colonel in a dress, read the links given above and don’t be afraid of being bamboozled. Liars always try to bamboozle people when it comes to science. As a rule of thumb, if the simple scientific explanation sounds too complicated to understand for the layman then either the person explaning doesn’t understand it himself or the person is deliberately trying to bamboozle you because he’s lying.
Rabbit has Occupational Health and Safety qualifications as well and the dangers of Radioactivity are well documented. Not only must people wear special protective clothing when hadling DU they should be monitored for excessive exposure on a daily basis. If DU was safe to be blown/burnt into powder and gas why is depleted uranium such a serious waste disposal problem? Do any of you naysayers want to explain why it would otherwise be encased in lead and concrete the either stored or buried somewhere to be left undisturbed for, well basically forever.? Any ideas? Heh, why don’t we use it to make bridges? or tools? if it is as safe as you’d like to think, why is it that no community anywhere wants any dumped near them and for that matter most countries want someone else to take it off their hands. They’ll pay whatever it costs to get rid of the stuff.
For chrissakes! This banter is utterly ridiculous. Were talking about depleted URANIUM, people!! How, the hell, can ANYONE even think that this crap could be “harmless?” The DDT comparison was absolutely hee-larious, it’s like apples and oranges! One comes from nuclear fuel processing, the other… well, never mind. We’re spraying this radioactive, deadly crap like it’s mosquito repellent.
Tell you what: I’ll be happy to play Devil’s advocate and just assume this stuff is as toxic as Play-doh. But, let’s have the Pentagon actually, you know - TEST IT to prove it once and for all.
Think there’s a reason they’ve been loathe to do any “field tests?” Gee, I wonder…
Serve FREE D.U. sandwiches in the Pentagon Cafaterias. See how many takers you get.
“Radiation in Iraq Equals 250,000 Nagasaki Bombs”
http://www.dissidentvoice.org/Mar04/Nichols0327.htm
INSANITY SEEMS TO BE ON A ROLL WITHIN THE DEFENCE DEPT.
“Bob Nichols is a contributing writer for LiberalSlant, Democratic Underground, OnlineJournal, AmericaHeldHostage, and other online dot com publications.”
Give me a break. I’m trying to keep an open mind on this DU stuff, but can we please exclude OBVIOUSLY biased emotional sources like this?
And then somebody doesn’t even understand that the reference to DDT is meant to illustrate how scare-science can trump real science, not to compare its radiation footprint.
I could refer you to reams of evidence about a serious relationship developing between Hussein and bin Laden. I might as well be claiming the moon is made of cheese.
But you expect me to take as gospel all these claims like “250,000 Nagasaki bombs?
There’s plenty of testing that’s been done, and it’s not presented alongside doctored pictures of mutated babies and skull and cross-bones watermarks.
****************
Final statement and recommendations:
Having comprehensively reviewed and cross-examined most of the specialized scientific literature, in particular the medical literature, judged reliable and trustworthy,
Having in mind the results provided by the medical observation over decades of workers of the uranium industry as well as by the experiments with animals,
Taking into account the results of the recent investigations in Iraq and in the Balkans of the effects on man and on the environment following the use of DU, the report concludes that the use of DU-ammunition in Iraq and the Balkans neither has led to a serious widespread contamination of the environment nor represents an acute or appreciable long-term hazard for man’s health.
http://www.europarl.eu.int/stoa/publi/pdf/stoa100_en.pdf
**************
Summary
The current sound medical-scientific evidence provides no evidence to show that a person having external or internal exposure to depleted uranium at any realistic level will develop an illness caused by depleted uranium.
The estimates of depleted uranium intake, chemical dose, and radiation dose calculated by the US DoD (OSAGWI, 2000) for Level II and III participants indicate those veterans experienced air concentrations well below the short-term exposure limits. These estimates are far below any relevant US Federal or industrial guideline for chemical or radiation exposure (OSAGWI, 2000). The toxicology of uranium has been examined in Section Five and the Expert Committee has concluded that harmful medical effects from depleted uranium exposure for Level II or III personnel are not supported by the current sound medical-scientific evidence.
Recent risk assessments by the Royal Society show that while studies of large cohorts of veterans are vitally important to explore and understand the experiences and exposures which may effect the health status of veterans, in the case of exposure to depleted uranium most would have had only very low or negligible exposure. Even during the Gulf War only a very small fraction of the troops present would have received measurable exposure to depleted uranium and based on our current knowledge of uranium toxicity the risk is below measurable levels. Even for their worst case estimates the risk was still so low that no observable increase in lung cancer (or other cancer) mortality would be seen in a cohort of 10,000 veterans followed for 50 years (Royal Society, 2001).
http://www.aph.gov.au/Senate/committee/fadt_ctte/estimates/add_0203/def/ans-dva-q34-att-feb03.doc
(two of many…..4000 word limit you know)
Natalie,
I admire your guts, taking on these scientific illiterate bullies .. look forward to direct communication. I can not keep up with the fallout that my initial comments generated and have been off the computer most of the day.
Roger
The Bob Nichols articles make such outlandish claims, as has Leuren Moret in her testimony in the Kangaroo Court in Japan which according to the International Court in the Hague had no connection or jurisdiction.
Nichols called Moret an emminent scientist. I expected to find someone with the credentials of a modern Madame Curie and instead found that Moret according to her bio
earned her B.S. in Geology at U.C. Davis in 1968, (my B.A. in Geological Sciences from SUNY at Buffalo was in 1969) and her M.A.
in Near Eastern Studies from U.C. Berkeley in 1978. She has completed all but her dissertation for a PhD. in the Geosciences at U.C. Davis
(Actually, Moret dropped out of the UC Davis Geology Phd program .. the Department declined to say nothing more than that she is no longer a candidate for the degree)
Moret then worked at Lawrence Berkeley Laboratory and Lawrence Livermore Laboratory. What she does not say is what she did there .. she gives the impression that she was a “scientist” and more than likely she actually was a lab tech or even some type of administrative assistant. The fact that her Masters is not in a scientific discipline tends one to think that Moret was not a “scientist”
What I find frightening is that this government has done this horrible, thing to our own solders. I heard about this on the radio a few years ago and did not believe! I belieeve now and lets get it to the media. There is so much that we have to speak out for! People tell the world the truth about this government!I heard a couple of years ago about the buletts that had uraniun in the tips. This is our government hurting our Children! This is our government hurting people!
NOMA is very angry, sorry for spelling errors. The radioactive properties in the tips of bullets is wrong. The media needs to look into this.
What really is frightening is that the anti-depleted uranium activists like Leuren Moret and Doug Rokke have done their best to scare the daylights out of you. Depleted uranium is not benign, but it also has caused no birth defects and has not created clouds swirling around the earth nor is the radiation level in Baghdad such that it is like taking a chest X-ray every two hours. Unfortunately, you need to do a little research beyond the typical far out sources and learn the facts. I provided references and the next poster, an apparently committed activist said she would not read them. The references were not government sources but included a respected investigative reporter who made an effort to learn what DU was and was not and the Health Physics Society.
I do have other things to do and responding to dozens of like claims of horror by Rabbitvoz (who does not have the courage to sign his real name yet has been kind enough to provide you mine), m_astera, etc. is not one of them. Read the Bob Evans’s articles .. learn the facts - he is a reporter, not an activist with an axe to grind.
http://www.dailypress.com/news/specials/dp-du2,0,4684968.sto ory?coll=dp-special-news
http://hps.org/publicinformation/radterms/
Know what you are talking about, a lengthy list of radiation terms and their definitions is located here .. there also is a link to a number of fact sheets, including one on radiation and pregnancy.
http://hps.org/publicinformation/ate/cat57.html
List of Ask the Expert Questions and Replies pertaining to Uranium at the Health Physics Society website .. a good place to learn from the experts, not the activists.
Answer to Question #626 Submitted to “Ask the Experts”
Category: Uranium
The following question was answered by an expert in the appropriate field:
Q: I intend to travel shortly to Yugoslavia to visit my parents who live outside a city that was bombed by NATO. In view of the latest scare about depleted uranium munitions that NATO used in the area I intend to bring them a portable Geiger counter so that they can check the area around their house and food that they buy on the market. Would you advise such a measure and what should they do if they register radiation higher than usual?
A: Your parents are very fortunate to have a son/daughter who is so genuinely concerned about their welfare and so thoughtful. However, both you and your parents should rest assured that they are at no risk from the depleted uranium that was used in Kosovo. There are many reasons why this is so, but the main one is that most of the depleted uranium stays very close to where the munition detonated.
If present in large enough quantities, uranium contamination of surfaces can be detected with a Geiger counter. But quantities large enough to detect would only be present on the battlefield and in the immediate area of where the munition was detonated. Since there is little or no likelihood that you would find any depleted uranium away from the actual battle site, and certainly not where your parents live, I would not recommend purchasing a Geiger counter. (Instead, as a father myself, permit me to suggest that you may wish to use the money you would have spent on a Geiger counter to purchase a very special gift for your parents.)
Some additional information about uranium may be of interest to you and you may wish to pass it on to your parents. Uranium is naturally present in small quantities in our environment, and all of us have a small amount of uranium in our bodies. Although depleted uranium is weakly radioactive, it is also a heavy metal, and chemical toxicity and not radioactivity is the primary health concern. Even its chemical toxicity is low, being approximately the same as the chemical toxicity of lead. Only a small fraction of the uranium that is swallowed—perhaps as much as five percent but more like one or two percent—is absorbed via the digestive tract. But there is no risk to your parents from the munitions used in Kosovo.
Also note that correctly interpreting Geiger counter readings requires specialized knowledge and skill. All Geiger counters will give readings from the naturally occurring background radiations, and these readings have quite a bit of normal variability. One must thus be able to separate out the large background radiation that results from cosmic rays, natural radioactivity in the soil, buildings, certain foods, etc., from any additional contamination. The normally fluctuating background radiation is often misinterpreted as being caused by radioactive contamination by inexperienced persons.
Enjoy your trip to Yugoslavia and your visit with your parents. None of you has any reason to be concerned about hazards from depleted uranium.
Ron L. Kathren, CHP
What is a CHP - A CHP is a Certified Health Physicist, something that Doug Rokke, Leuren Moret or Bob Nichols are not!
To become a CHP, American Board of Health Physics requires:
General Requirements for Certification
Academics. Must possess at least a bachelor’s degree from an accredited college or university in physical science, engineering, mathematics, or in a biological science with a minor in physical science, engineering, or mathematics.
Experience. An applicant must have at least six years of responsible professional experience in health physics. At least three years of the experience must have been in applied health physics. The six years of professional experience, which must be documented by an applicant for Part II of the exam, must be experience that demonstrates that the candidate has been required to exercise judgment in one, or more, of the following:
establishment and/or evaluation of a radiation protection program
design and/or the evaluation of the design of the radiation protection aspects of a facility
design and implementation of a radiation protection training course or program
development of an experimental and/or measurement program designed to answer questions related to radiation protection
evaluation of measurement data
analysis and solution of radiation protection problems
preparation, interpretation and implementation of recommendations and regulations.
At the discretion of the Board, advanced degrees in health physics or a closely related area of study may be substituted for a maximum of two years of the required experience. master’s degree one year, a doctoral degree may be substituted for two years of the required experience. Technician-level experience will in no case be acceptable as meeting the experience requirements.
References. Reference statements are required from the applicant’s supervisor and, if applying for Part II, from at least two other individuals who are professionally qualified to evaluate the applicant’s ability in health physics. It is required that at least one reference be from a health physicist already certified by the ABHP.
Written Report. Each applicant for Part II of the examination shall submit with the Application for Certification a document written by the applicant that reflects a professional health physics effort. This “effort” may be a substantive facility evaluation, a protection guidance document, a major monitoring program, or some other complex or comprehensive effort. The criteria for ABHP acceptance of this report are that it (1) be on a topic for which the ABHP tests and certifies expertise, (2) contain elements of professional judgment or application of non-regulatory protection guidance, and (3) be written solely or principally by the candidate. The Board, after examination of the application materials, may request additional such reports. All reports will be treated as confidential material. All reports submitted in fulfillment of this requirement shall be reviewed by an ABHP member. Third-party review of written reports is not acceptable.
Examination. The written examination has two parts: Part I, which can be taken early in one’s career, determines the competence of the applicant in fundamental aspects of health physics, and Part II determines his/her competence in applied health physics topics. Either part of the written examination must be taken within two years of notification of eligibility, or a new application must be submitted. After passing Part I, the applicant must pass Part II within a period of seven years, or retake both parts.
Anyone who meets the education and experience requirements and is practicing health physics in a competent and ethical manner is strongly urged to apply to the Board for admission to the written examination.
For all of you “experts” commenting on the horrors of DU who are CHPs, if you meet the requirements, please, do prepare for and take the test. It is quite rigorous.
I note in one of the earlier responses to my posting which is documentable in a 1990 memo from Colonel Day to Captains Armstrong, Brannon and Carter, that Lieutenant Rokke is emphasizing that he is a Major ..
Lieutenant Rokke was the Army Reservist activated for service in Desert Storm, subsequent to that time, Lieutenant Rokke was apparently promoted to Captain and Major in the United States Army Reserve. Douglas Lind Rokke is not a retired Regular Army office in the grade of major, which is what Dr Rokke (who also never emphasizes that his post-Desert Storm doctorate in Education has absolutely nothing to do with Health Physics or Depleted Uranium)implies when he uses his military rank (I presume he has completed 20 years Active/Reserve service and has qualified for “gray area retirement” as an Army Reservist in the grade of Major)
The rest of the posting is a regulation that Rokke rants about not being followed .. he has been told to specifically identify by paragraph what provisions are not being followed and request an investigation by the Department of Defense Inspector General. That, however, is not conducive to further ranting or rallying his anti-DU supporters and is bad theatre, which is what Rokke’s real strength is, acting!
Rokke seems to be the one who has chosen to use my actual name .. he has forgotten that I am not in the USAF, but like him am a retired reservist. Unlike him, I get absolutely nothing but heartache and being spat on by the anti-DU movement for opposing the lies that he has spread. He on the other hand gets to travel the world at the expense of the anti-DU movement and spout his lies. His latest lies pertain to his own safety, he asserts that he has been the target of a “hit squad” and about the attack on the Pentagon on September 11th. I guess the anti-DU crowd was not large enough of an audience and he needed to add the so-called 9/11 Truth Movement to his followers. I am surprised that Dave Lindorff has gotten taken in by Rokke as Dave has written some pretty good work in the past and is not just into the anti-DU movement as is Bob Nichols or into conspiracies in general as is Greg Syzmanski, two of Rokke’s other mouthpieces. I intend to find everything I possibly can about Rokke, Moret and Nichols. They have slandered me to the world and I will not take that.
Answer to Question #746 Submitted to “Ask the Experts”
Category: Uranium
Q: How are bullets made by depleted uranium, and what reactions do they cause when they enter into contact with the ground and with humans?
A: Because of its very high density—nearly twice that of lead—and certain other properties, depleted uranium is used in certain kinds of munitions because of its ability to penetrate heavily armored vehicles such as tanks and armored personnel carriers. Depleted uranium (DU) is not used in small cartridges or bullets for rifles or machines guns but alloyed DU is used in the 25, 105, and 120 millimeter (mm) kinetic energy cartridges used primarily as antitank munitions. DU is also a component in some tank armor and sometimes used as a catalyst for land mine systems.
Since depleted uranium is weakly radioactive, the public has been concerned about the possiblility of adverse health effects from DU. DU is a heavy metal, and like all heavy metals such as mercury and lead, is toxic. However, except in certain very unusual situations, it is the chemical toxicity and not the radioactivity that is of concern. And, from a chemical toxicity standpoint, uranium is on the same order of toxicity as lead. Largely from work with animals along with a few instances in which humans inhaled very large amounts of uranium, the chemical toxicity of uranium is known to produce minor effects on the kidney, which in humans who have suffered large acute exposures have been transitory and wholly reversible. Because depleted and natural uranium are only weakly radioactive, radiological effects from ingested or inhaled uranium have not been detected in humans.
Human experience with uranium has spanned more than 200 years. In the early part of the twentieth century, uranium was used therapeutically as a treatment for diabetes, and persons so treated were administered relatively large amounts of uranium by mouth. Tens of thousands of persons have worked in the uranium industry over the past several decades, and have been followed up and studied extensively as have populations in Canada and elsewhere who have high levels of uranium in their drinking water. Results of these studies have not revealed any ill health in these populations that is attributable to the intake of uranium. This not surprising as the risk from the radiation dose from uranium is far overshadowed by its potential chemical toxicity, and intakes of uranium of sufficient magnitude to produce chemotoxic effects are unlikely in and of themselves. Any such effects from ingestion or inhalation of uranium would likely manifest themselves first in the form of minor effects associated with the kidneys.
That military personnel and others who may have had contact with depleted uranium from munitions are suffering from various illnesses is not in dispute. That their illnesses are attributable to their exposure to uranium is very, very unlikely.
Dr Cathren’s reply cont in next comment ..
Apologists like Ramjet will get no sympathy from me. Your political leanings are blatantly obvious.
“I intend to find everything I possibly can about Rokke, Moret and Nichols. They have slandered me to the world and I will not take that. “
Aw, tough shit.
Ask the Experts .. How are bullets made from depleted uranium (continued from previous comment which was cut short by 4000 character limit)
Health physicists are deeply concerned with the public health and welfare, and as experts in radiation and its effects on people and the environment, are quite aware that something other than exposure to uranium is the cause of the illnesses suffered by those who have had contact with depleted uranium from munitions. A truly enormous body of scientific data shows that it is virtually impossible for uranium to be the cause of their illnesses. Despite this body of scientific data to the contrary, misguided or unknowing people continue to allege that the depleted uranium, and specifically the radioactivity associated with the depleted uranium is the cause of these illness. This is indeed unfortunate, for health physicists and other scientists and physicians already know that depleted uranium is not the cause of these illnesses and thus any investigations into the cause of these illnesses should focus on other possible causes. If we are to offer any measure of relief or solace to these suffering people, and to gain some important additional knowledge of the cause of their illness, we should not waste our valuable and limited energies, resources and time attempting to point the finger at depleted uranium as the culprit, when it is already known that uranium is almost certainly not the cause of the problem.
With respect to reactions with the soil, in time depleted uranium will likely leach into the soil and become mixed with it. It will for all practical purposes be chemically indistinguishable from the natural uranium that is already present in the soil all over the earth. One could create all kinds of scenarios, but probably the best way to think about DU in the soil is to compare it with lead. Because lead and uranium are so similar from a toxicological standpoint, the concerns are about the same.
Ronald L. Kathren, CHP
Professor Emeritus
Washington State University
Answer to Question #4549 Submitted to “Ask the Experts”
Category: Uranium
The following question was answered by an expert in the appropriate field:
Q: I am going to protest military training in Australia where US and Australian troops will be using depleted uranium ammunition. I’ve heard the dust can become airborne for 10s of kilometres. Is there a danger? Do I need to buy a respirator? Do you know of an affordable respirator that will effectively filter the dust?
A: There should be no danger to you from airborne depleted uranium, and it is therefore unnecessary for you to purchase or to wear a respirator. You may wish to learn more about the potential hazards of depleted uranium by consulting the Health Physics Society depleted uranium fact sheet. This brief fact sheet will also refer you to other Web sites by reputable organizations, such as the United Nations, which provide in-depth information about depleted uranium and its potential hazards.
Please note that while it is true that airborne dust can be transported many kilometers, only a miniscule fraction of dust released to air at or near the surface of the earth would travel long distances, a fact that is supported by a very large body of both theoretical and empirical studies. Most of the material would fall to earth very close to the point of release and would constitute no hazard to nearby personnel, let alone those at kilometer distances. For uranium-bearing dusts to constitute a meaningful inhalation hazard, the quantity inhaled would have to be relatively large, and the particle sizes would have to be in the so-called respirable range, i.e., on the order of 1 micrometer or so in diameter.
Ronald L. Kathren
Professor Emeritus of Pharmaceutical Sciences
Washington State University at Tri-Cities
Answer posted on July 8, 2005.
This is a great discussion. I see a lot of anger. Good!
Many have posted good websites and references, but I don’t see Dr. Helen Caldicott —very layperson-friendly:
HelenCaldicott.com
And her organization:
NuclearPolicy.org (NucUlear will get you the you-know-where)
Nat, everyone is tough on you. Well, good. Educate yourself. It is definitely dangerous to be ill/un/disinformed in this age (nuclear) and if you read Dr. Caldicott’s latest book, it will make you realize how dangerous ‘Depleted’ uranium really is. The term was likely used to ‘tame’ it so that we will accept such unacceptable things as the use of radiation-laden wastes (oh, WASHED up, of course) in our milk jugs and other consumer products. That’s right. Look it up for yourself, don’t take my word for it.
What a horrible legacy we’re leaving in the cradle of civilization.
Ammonia D .. just exactly what can you determine about my political leanings .. I just am a porcupine .. I bristle. Far as politics, I voted for George McGovern through John Kerry, not for Reagan, Bush either one, nor Nixon! So much for your crystal ball, now read some factual information or admit that you are an ignoramus.
BTW, Ramjet, while I appreciate the article talking about ‘dust’ and such, I seem to recall, correctly I hope, that Dr. Caldicott’s book speaks of DU missles that are designed to crack tanks and armored vehicles —DU is dense, you see. These explode/burn, of course, on impact and there is vaporization (NOT dust-borne here) and DU sinks deep into the lungs in this way.
This from memory, but, again, read her works, especially the latest book. She goes into all the new and pertinent uses, not JUST the neglected/idle devises (‘old’ isn’t correct, is it?)
Someone has just told a health physicist to educate themselves by reading Caldicotts book’s because her writings are “layperson friendly”.
Th Health Physics Society needs to do a better job of informing the public about their work.
The 2005 Sandia report describes what happens. Vapors are not the issue. Dust is and the dust remains close to the impact point because of its high specific gravity. DU projectiles do not in themselves explode .. they cause fuel/munitions within the struck tank to explode. They do burn on impact and this causes the self-sharpening which makes them an extremely effective tank killer. Read the 208 page Sandia report. Your tax dollars paid for it; you might as well learn something from it. Dr Caldicott is neither a Health Physicist nor a Geologist and is not really an “expert” on what happens when a DU munition hits an armored target. The Sandia report is based on actual tested impacts and careful extensive measurement. It is available at
http://www.sandia.gov/news-center/news-releases/2005/def-nonprolif-sec/depleted-uranium.html
NOW HERE IS THE LIE EXPOSED IN ITS BRAZEN DETAIL!
Read this story from BBC where in lies this quote: Pun intended!
US REJECTST IRAQ CLEANUP
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2946715.stm
Quote from story:
A Pentagon spokesman, Lieutenant-Colonel David Lapan, told BBC News Online: “Since then there’ve been a number of studies - by the UK’s Royal Society and the World Health Organisation, for example - into the health risks of DU, or the lack of them.
“It’s fair to say the 1990 study has been overtaken by them. One thing we’ve found in these various studies is that there are no long-term effects from DU.
“And given that, I don’t believe we have any plans for a DU clean-up in Iraq.”
————-
Now read from :
SCIENTISTS REJ3ECT LINE ON DEPLETED URANIUM
http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2003/04/17/1050172706047.html
Hundreds of tonnes of depleted uranium used by Britain and the US in Iraq should be removed to protect the civilian population, the Royal Society - Britain’s premier scientific institution - says, contradicting Pentagon claims it is not necessary.
The society’s statement fuels the controversy over the use of depleted uranium, which is an effective tank destroyer and bunker-buster but is believed by many scientists to cause cancers and other severe illnesses.
The society was incensed because the Pentagon had claimed it had the backing of the society in saying depleted uranium was not dangerous
——
Read the whole article! THE LIE IS BOLD BARE AND BRAZEN
Britian
Another enlightening article
This one by : By Ashraf El-Bayoumi
He is a professor of physical chemistry & biophysics in Michigan
State University and Alexandria University, and Vice- President of Alexandria
Human Rights Association.
A CACEROUS WEB OF DECEPTION
Read the whole article
http://www.xs4all.nl/~stgvisie/VISIE/cancerous-web.html
Quotes from the article:
Efforts over recent years by human rights activists to expose the disastrous
health consequences of using depleted uranium (DU) weapons were for the most
part unsuccessful
Well If No
The American government and military establishment have a long track record of experimenting with troops with regard to highly radio active nuclear material and conducting this research over a period of years, much in the same fashion as the Tuskegee Syphilis experiment.
Right-wing extremists view our troops as expendable. When President Bush spoke about having political currency after his re-election, that also meant continued spending of the lives of soldiers for an extreme political ideology, homogenized for the palate of blindly faithful followers, that fronts for the monied special interests. It’s all about the money.
<i>
Vapor (of uranyl oxide gas fumes) is, contrary to Roger Helbig’s claim, the most important issue. And in fact the Army has admitted as much, in their reply to my NRC 10 CFR 2.206 petition, they note the need to determine whether UO3(g) vapor disperses or forms clouds. They have not disputed the fact that the UO3(g) gas vapor is produced, and that fact is noted in about a dozen peer-reviewed scientific publications, such as those here:
http://www.bovik.org/du/2bibs.html
Also, the Health Physics Society is a group of radiation professionals with strong ecomonic ties to the nuclear industry—they have no training or expertise in the chemical toxicity of uranium, leaving that to industrial health practitioners, of which there are few if any monitoring pyrophoric uranium munitions use. The HPS and CHPs are simply not reliable sources for issues involving the chemical toxicity of uranium. For an example of a CHP explaining this, please see:
http://ruleforum.llnl.gov/cgi-bin/downloader/PRM_2026_public/1564-0005.pdf
Any discussion of radioactivity or dusts (the less soluble and less dangerous oxides UO2 and U3O8) is simply misdirection from the real problem of chemical toxicity—which damages DNA causing gulf war syndrome and increases in the incidence rates of birth defects—and the UO3(g) vapor fumes, which are not dust at all, precipitating as a film and being absorbed into the bloodstream immediately upon inhalation.
These are the best peer-reviewed medical publications on the birth defect issue:
“Overall, the risk of any malformation among pregnancies reported by men was 50% higher in Gulf War Veterans (GWV) compared with Non-GWVs”
—Doyle et al. Int. J. Epidemiol., vol. 33 (2004), pp. 74-86
http://ije.oupjournals.org/cgi/content/full/33/1/74
“Infants conceived postwar to male GWVs had significantly higher prevalence of tricuspid valve insufficicieny (relative risk [RR], 2.7; 95% confidence interval [CI], 1.1-6.6; p = 0.039) and aortic valve stenosis (RR, 6.0; 95% CI, 1.2-31.0; p = 0.026) compared to infants conceived postwar to nondeployed veteran males. Among infants of male GWVs, aortic valve stenosis (RR, 163; 95% CI, 0.09-294; p = 0.011) and renal agenesis or hypoplasia (RR, 16.3; 95% CI, 0.09-294; p = 0.011) were significantly higher among infants conceived postwar than prewar.”
—Birth Defects Res A Clin Mol Teratol. vol. 67, no. 4 (2003), pp.
246-60: http://www.bovik.org/du/mscusn/BD_Infants_GWV_AR_AZ_CA_GA_HI_IA_1989-1993.pdf
I. Al-Sadoon, et al, “Depleted Uranium and Health of People in
Basrah: Epidemiological Evidence,” Medical Journal of Basrah
University, vol. 17, nos. 1&2 (1999)—please see Table 1 at:
http://www.irak.be/ned/archief/Depleted Uranium_bestanden/DEPLETED URANIUM-2- INCIDENCE.htm
There is no other explanation—no pesticide, antidote, antibiotic, or smoke—which could have caused this increase in the birth defect rate in U.S. and U.K. troops as well as the Iraqi civilians in Basrah, near the first gulf war in February 1991.
Oh, and as for the recent Sandia report—what a piece of work that was. People should keep in mind that Sandia National Laboratories is administered by Lockheed-Martin, which makes the Apache and A-10 30 mm guns which fire DU ordnance. Here are my comments on the recent Sandia report:
http://www.bovik.org/du/snl-dusand.pdf
Most telling is perhaps the quote, “This assessment should not
be interpreted to be a general validation of the SNL National
Securities Studies Department methodology for studying the
consequences of terrorist use of radiological dispersal devices.”
In other words, it’s not good enough to correctly predict the
effects of uranium combustion weapons. By the way, did anyone
notice how Jose Padilla is now charged with plotting to blow up
high-density housing with “natural gas” instead of uranium? UO3
gas is both natural and artificial.
I agree that Table ES-1 on page 12 indicates a 24% increase in
fatal cancer risk and an 8% increase in birth defects, and
ignores chemical toxicity by reporting radiological risk only.
Also, “veterans” is apparently used to mean “all veterans,”
instead of “exposed veterans,” as far as I can tell. Please let
me know if I am wrong about that. Uranium causes 1e+6 more DNA
damage from chemical toxicity than from its radiological hazard.
Miller, et al., J Inorg Biochem, vol. 91, no. 1 (2002), pp.
246-252: http://www.bovik.org/du/Miller-DNA-damage.pdf
Therefore, if only 5% of veterans were exposed, then the risk
ratios for the exposed are 4.8e+6 for fatal cancer, and 1.6e+6
for birth defects, above the radiological risks reported.
However, I can not agree with the study because it is self-
contradictory. In earlier sections in section 1.2 on scope, it
claims to include complete evaluation of both radiological and
nonradiological hazards, but Section 5.2 on p. 72, “Other Heavy
Metal Effects,” reads:
> Some evidence has been reported for the possibility of other
> chemical effects associated with uranium internalization (see
> Appendix D).... Among the tested veterans, McDiarmid
Mr. Salsman,
Again, I’m no scientist, certainly. But I was checking out one of the references you gave to support your DU contentions:
http://www.irak.be/ned/archief/Depleted Uranium_bestanden/DEPLETED URANIUM-2- INCIDENCE.htm
This is apparently, or maybe obviously a report from a researcher in Basrah, Iraq in 1999. Why wouldn’t we assume his work to be suspect in light of the fact that it would assumedly have been subject to review by his benevolent over-lord, Saddam Hussein? Would he possibly have been trying to reach a pre-conceived (ordered) result?
And even if the data is accurate, are you sure about there not being any other influences on the population? Do you trust Saddam when he tells you he wasn’t doing any experiments on some of his favorite people that decade?
It seems to me they did have a bit of a smoke problem back in the early 90’s.
Natalie:
Thank you for your questions.
The Al-Sadoon, Hassan, and Yacoub paper was published in the Medical Journal of Basrah
University, a peer-reviewed publication which is considered authorative in Iraq. There is no evidence of the medical journals in Iraq being censored or controlled by the government of which I am aware. In any case, the results in the Al-Sadoon, et al. paper were confirmed by the oncologist Dr. Jawad Al-Ali, who spoke in Stockholm on 24 April 2004. Presumably at that time Dr. Al-Ali had no reason to maintain government or fear the Saddam government. You can read Dr. Al-Ali’s Stockholm presentation, linking depleted uranium exposure to both birth defects and cancers here:
http://www.bovik.org/du/Effects-of-DU-war.pdf
Given that the increase in birth defects was noted only in Basrah, immediately adjacent to the February 1991 gulf war’s pyrophoric uranium munitions use, and nowhere else in Iraq, combind with the established fact that Saddam was predisposed to experiment with chemical weapons on the Kurds rather than the more numerous Arabs such as populate Basrah, and further combined with the fact that the combat-deployed soldiers who fought near Basrah in February 1991 also have experienced increased birth defect rates in their offspring, I think it would be exceedingly unlikely for the Basrah civilian’s birth defect rate increase to be attributable to experimentation with chemical weapons.
Moreover, there are apparently no chemical weapons, as far as I can tell, which are teratogenic (cause birth defects.) They might kill you and increase your chances of cancer, but none of them apparently affect the congenital malformation rates of mamals at nonlethal doses.
There are a number of biological pathogens which are teratogenic, but I don’t think any of them have ever been considered as biological warfare agents. The following list is taken from Table 1 on page 11 of J.B. Bishop, et al., “Genetic Toxicities of Human Teratogens,” Mutation Research, vol. 396 (1997), pp. 9-43:
http://www.bovik.org/du/Bishop97MutRes-GenToxTerat.pdf
Cytomegalovirus (CMG)
human Herpes virus I and II
Parvovirus B-19 (Erthema infectiousum)
Rubella virus
Syphilis
Toxoplasmosis
Varicella virus
Venezuelan equine encephalitis virus (VEEV)
Of those, only syphilis and VEEV has been documented as being used as a biological weapon: Syphilis by the Japanese against the Chinese in the 1930s, and while VEEV is been considered a potent biological weapon, its use as such has not yet been documented.
However, if any of the above agents were used in the 1991 gulf war, it would have been obvious. They all have acute and well-understood symptoms, none of which were reported beyond expected levels.
HO HO HO! The Colonel is indeed outed. Heh Helbig you were outed by another I just commented on the obsefrvation and added my own that you and Natalie are probably the same. Others have amply proven your pathetic propagandistic attempts for your masters. Too many informed people here for you Colonel Natalie Helbig. No Rabbit will just stick with taunting you, its more fun. You can’t change my views sunshine because I am well qualified to understand DU and all it’s implications. I can’t change yours because you are programmed and have an agenda anyway. Did Rabbit upset you or what though? How many postings did you rattle off there? and not one of them of any use whatsoever too. You really ought to find something better to do to earn your pay. You’re funny though and every good discussion site should have one of you official apologists.
Now Rabbit, who has no problem with his name being known is a fairly well travelled handle in cyberspace. Rabbit doesn’t like saying I and me all the time so finds the handle useful. Additionally, Roger Ramjet, The handle is entirely intentional (as is yours no doubt, hee hee). Since I born in the year of the Rabbit am and recognise easily those attributes of character referred to by the Chinese I use the name to be even more expressive of my true self than my name of Stephen Gray Pallister would be. Now that is a hell of a lot more courage than you possess you prissy little morality challenged military yes-man. When your masters run that one through the machine you’ll see why. Watch the lights and bells go off. Then you’ll be back to try and smear me scumbag, prooving not only who you are, but what.
One thing is for sure though Colonel Roger Helbig Ramjet Natalie, nothing your masters know about me will even begin to make you aware of how utterly out of your depth you are now and at any time in the future.
Rabbit tends to act as a nexus for certain people as well as information and ideas. This is done quite visibly about the web and in other ways not so evident. Intuition and intelligence coupled with a total committment to the truth and unflinching courage, has seen the Rabbit top of the class when it comes to Bashing Bullies. Ever since Rabbit was a skinny kid with glasses he made a practice of annoying the biggest dickheads he can find and then belting the crap out of them. Many of them were better people for it I might add. No chance for you though Colonel. You are lost to us. Since there are usually plenty of knowledgeable people around to sort out the facts I usually just turn my talents to drawing out trolls and stooges. I’ve got a pretty good record actually, notice how pissed off I’m making you, and you are making mistakes. ie; you are the one that proved who you are and you proved Natalie already and already I’ve set you up for the coup de gras.
Now we’ve seen American Super-hero, Naive all american girl, and I think I might have caught your returned veteran for bush act somewhere else on the internet. What Rabbit is wondering is what else can you do.?
Can you do an American Soldier Mum who is proud her slowly dying son fought even though he needs her help to get down to the dole office these days.?
What about a professor who has proven that DU has been mistakenly treated as a lethal poison with all the aforementioned disposal criteria for decades.? In fact you expect to see cars made of it in the future, and body armour.
BTW Roger BIGjet how do the actual measurements of radioactivity in Iraq as well as the myriad symtoms of radiation poisoning amongst many patients including returned veterans fit in with your pretence that DU is safe? They are imagining it maybe? Or maybe you’ve got some links to somewhere where it says they are imagining it.?
Come on BIG ROGER RAMBO show us your style.
I have not seen anyone mention the most horrifying part of this anti-DU hysteria yet, so allow me to pipe in.
The US .mil is not immune to loud whining such as the anti-DU folks are good at. They have, reluctantly, worked on developing a replacement for DU. This is a tall order, because DU has a combination of properties that literally make it unique as a weapon alloy.
It is very dense. It is VERY strong when properly worked. It is pyrophoric (bursts into flames in air if provoked.) But most uniquely, it exhibits adiabatic shear. This is the most unique property if all, and the one that makes it self-sharpening. Self sharpening is very important for defeating armor.
Well, after a lot of effort and money, the .mil has successfully developed a tungsten-based replacement for DU which has all the same properties, including the adiabatic shear.
Hooray! There’s no more need to use DU! Tungsten, while nasty stuff, isn’t nearly as toxic as DU is, right?
Well, recently some scientists decided to test the lethality of this new DU replacement, and what they found was startling.
This non-radioactive, “safer” alloy caused 100 percent fatal cancers in test rats. Some showed up in mere weeks.
ONE HUNDRED PERCENT FATAL.
Be careful what you wish for folks, you might get it.
http://www.afrri.usuhs.mil/www/outreach/pdf/tungsten_cancer.pdf
Da
mauk2 (could it be? surely not the colonel.) give us a break. Why are you making the assumption that concerns about DU are hysteria? They have been discussed in rational terms with so many facts raised which remove all doubt that DU ammunition is dangerous. There really never was any doubt you clown.
DU is absolutely banned under international law both by definition as Chemical and Nuclear weapon. The massive disposal problems of the stuff, when it is not being blasted all over people we don’t like, is further proof that you are pissing into the wind to pretend there is any doubt about the lethality of the stuff.
mauk2 you are not only the hysterical one sunshine, you are actually coming across as a psychopath, since there really isn’t any question that Waste Uranium is VERY BLOODY DANGEROUS, in the long term. Trying to derail the topic again with the tungsten crap is typical, don’t bite please anyone.
Considering the timing of your arrival and that familiar hubris, clowding the issue attitude, Rabbit feels obligated to point out that even if you are not Rambo Helbig in another guise, you seem to be. Not much good at this stuff are we Colonel? The voice baby, the voice has to be different. A wig and glasses doesn’t do it.
Heh folks this guy is at it under other handles too. Found him calling himself MiddleRoad here thinks Rabbit.
http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/2299/
What a Goose! Do they really promote these kind of donkeys to Lt Colonel in your country?
No wonder Aussies don’t take well to saluting US officers.
mauk2:
Tungsten is far superior, because it’s not pyrophoric it only harms by shrapnel.
In the February 1991 gulf war, less than 200 soldiers ended up with DU shrapnel, but hundreds of thousands were exposed to and inhaled UO3(g) vapor fumes from the 315 tons of DU ordnance used that month, including civilians.
Furthermore, the rats might be an outlier. To quote from the article you cite, “tungsten coils implanted into ... rabbits rapidly degrade…. However, after four months, no signs of local or systemic toxicity were observed.” (Peuster, et al., Biomaterials, vol. 24 (2003) pp. 393-399.)
I’d rather put just the soldiers at risk than the soldiers and the civilians and their offspring, any day of the week. The soldiers signed up for war; the civilians and the kids did not.
Plus, shrapnel can often be removed; inhaled uranyl compounds can not.
Quote the Rabbit!
you are actually coming across as a psychopath, since there really isn
Eadora you have to see an angry rabbit to believe it. They not only bite but also growl and can maintain a sustained, ferocious attack. Upset my youngest son’s Miniature Black Rex once and will never forget the experience. The Rabbit attacked non-stop for about fifteen minutes and I emerged bloody and shaken.
I have had cause to re-consider the story about the Rabbit which swam out to Bill Clinton in the middle of a lake and bit him. Always figured the Rabbit knew exactly what it was doing. They don’t just jump into lakes without a reason, though ours enjoys Kayaking in the Swan river.
I am hoping that Dave Lindorff is still reading here, because there’s something in his article that made no sense to me:
“According to Mt. Sinai pathologist Thomas Fasey, who participated in the New York Guard unit testing, the element has an affinity for bonding with DNA, where even trace amounts can cause cancers and fetal abnormalities.”
As far as I know, uranium is not known for complex covalent bonding, and DNA does not act as a chelating agent. It seems to me that if DNA had a propensity for chelating heavy metals, then uranium would be the least of our worries. So why would uranium have any affinity for *bonding* with DNA?
Meanwhile, I have a few observations about the radioactive risk from inhaled uranium:
The biological target of concern is DNA. When we’re discussing any alpha-emitter, we’re talking about double strand breaks in DNA.
The body’s first line of defense against DNA damage is its amazing ability to repair strand breaks with near perfection. (If it weren’t for this ability, we wouldn’t be here.) When the body makes an error in repair *and* the cell is not killed in the process, then we have a mutated survivor that could become cancerous if it develops a competitive advantage with normal cells.
The body’s second line of defense is for the immune system to destroy “misbehaving” mutant cells. Any suppression of immunity can be critical at this stage.
Stress is perhaps the greatest suppressor of our immune system. War is probably the most stressful possible situation. Unless there are other factors I am overlooking, it would follow that soldiers generally have suppressed immune systems.
However, as I recall, all of the cohorts used for uranium dose conversion factors are groups of people who were not under unusual stress. Therefore, while the *dose* conversion factors may be correct from that data, the *effective* dose (that is, the biological effect per unit of absorbed energy) may be significantly underestimated for combat soldiers.
That may be a significant factor in the kind of observations made by Dave Lindorff and others.
As an interesting aside, I noted the figure of 300 tons of uranium munitions used by U.S. soldiers. In my research on the Yellowstone Caldera, I discovered that a series of eruptions over the past million years emitted 300 *million* tons of uranium into the air. Considering the different time scales, I realize that the comparison is like apples to oranges, but it seems worth mentioning.
Your body sees no difference between the alpha particle from the Yellowstone dust in your backyard and the one from shrapnel. The critical differences may be scale and stress.
Knappster says “The biological target of concern is DNA. When we
Knappster:
The uranyl ion and its complexes form ligands with protiens and DNA, when it’s not catalyzing hydroxyl and other oxidative radicals. Please see: H. Huang, et al., “Uranyl-Peptide Interactions in Carbonate Solution with DAHK and Derivatives,” Inorganic Chemistry, vol. 44 (2005), pp. 813-815:
http://www.bovik.org/du/uranyl-peptide.pdf
and for DNA: M. Yazzie, et al., Chemical Research in Toxicology, vol. 16 (2003) pp. 524-530.
The radioactivity of uranium is of essentially no consequence in relation to DNA damage compared with its chemical toxicity producing oxidative stress resulting in oxidation damage to DNA. Any discussion of U radioactivity in that context is tantamount to misdirection from the more hazardous chemical toxicity. This must be the 100th time I’ve had to explain this, and at least the 3rd or forth on this thread.
rabbitvoz sez: “Why are you making the assumption that concerns about DU are hysteria?”
Because study after study has shown no connection between DU exposure (which is bad, mind you, but then, so is lead exposure) and these mystery ailments. Arguments unsupported by facts are generally driven by hysteria.
“They have been discussed in rational terms with so many facts raised which remove all doubt that DU ammunition is dangerous.”
Heh. Let me get this straight: You’re complaining that BULLETS are DANGEROUS?
LOL. Of COURSE they are. THEY’RE BULLETS.
Duh?
I think what you meant to say is that DU has unintended levels of incidental toxicity. That is a far more nebulous claim, and frankly, one that is unsupported by facts.
“...even if you are not Rambo Helbig in another guise, you seem to be.”
Nope! I saw this conversation posted on a mailing list I frequent, and since I am a small, weak person in many ways, I came by to inject some facts into the argument. I know, it’s a thankless task…. :(
jsalsman sez:
“Tungsten is far superior, because it
jsalsman:
“The radioactivity of uranium is of essentially no consequence in relation to DNA damage compared with its chemical toxicity producing oxidative stress resulting in oxidation damage to DNA.”
Maybe you should tell this to the author, who used the word “radioactive” in the title to hook people into reading his article.
YOH! mauk2 - Your lame attempts at Ridicule are most humorous.
Quote mauk2
“Because study after study has shown no connection between DU exposure (which is bad, mind you, but then, so is lead exposure) and these mystery ailments. Arguments unsupported by facts are generally driven by hysteria.”
It’s so easy to spot the psychotic personalities that post here—they always spout-off oblivious to the article.
You apologists for DU death are a real treat!
It’s like dealing with cockroaches on a kitchen table.
DEATH BY SLOW BURN
God! It’s like dealing with a sub human species
You can continue in your denials and rants,
Eadora sez: “READ THE WHOLE THING”
Hey. it’s only a few pages, of course I read the whole thing, it took me like 30 minutes. :)
Here’s the link:
http://www.uraniumweaponsconference.de/pdf/conferenceresoluttion2.pdf
This is a list of findings. I find these unpersuasive, because all too often the folks involved are quite partisan in their opinions. I would much prefer links to the source papers, such as I provided for the tungsten weapon alloy above.
That said, some of these papers seeme dubious in their claims at best, although I’ll have to admit, the “photoelectron amplification” paper sounds darn interesting and even maybe vaguely plausible. Most of these seem like epidemiological studies, and frankly, stats like those can be massaged to say about anything by people with an agenda. Here’s a truism you never see people who make these epidemiological admit to: “Correlation does not mean causation.”
There is a very strong correlation between lying down and dying. Does this mean that if you stand up forever, you’ll be immortal?
Now, your next link:
http://www.barremore.net/depleted-uranium-kills.html
Lots of words, lots of angst, very few facts. Felt like wading through a fever dream, but as I was asked to read the whole thing, I did. Even the part where the page accused President Clinton of laundering drug money for the first President Bush. Do you actually BELIEVE this stuff? :D
I especially liked the little “Arrest Bush-Cheney” ad at the bottom, nice little factual, non-partisan touch. :)
Sadly, heated rhetoric doesn’t mean a thing.
Okay this link:
http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/326/7396/952
It’s just a news article. Gimme some links to source papers. This biased crap that passes for journalism these days means nothing except that some hack made his deadline on time.
Now this link seemed more promising:
http://www.idust.net/Compendium/Compendium.htm
But it’s just a bunch of links to paper abstracts as far as I can tell. Abstracts are nice and all, but more than a little short of information.
This link seems broken somehow:
http://www.axisoflogic.com/cgi-bin/exec/view.pl?archive=43&a amp;num=5279
This link gives me a 404 error:
http://www.americanfreepress.net/06_24_03/Massive_Epidemic_/ /massive_epidemic_.html
Now, you are aware that depeleted uranium is less radioactive than natural uranium.
It is chemically identical.
Thus, natural uranium should be worse than depelted uranium, yes? More rads, same chemistry.
If this is the case, why is anybody alive? Uranium is EVERYWHERE.
You do realize that uranium is present in phosphate fertilizers that are used to grow most of our food, right?
http://www.orau.org/ptp/collection/consumer products/fertilizer.htm
If uranium is so deadly, why aren’t we all dead already?
Here, just go to this page and scare yourself green.
http://www.orau.org/ptp/collection/consumer products/consumer.htm
We live in a SEA of radiation. The extra smidgeon that DU adds is so miniscule it makes no difference whatsoever.
The CHEMICAL toxicity of uranium, now that’s something to avoid. But that’s still not as bad as lead or chromium or <shudder> beryllium.
Lots of stuff is radioactive or poisonous. Lots of stuff is more radioactive and more poisonous than DU. The world is not dead. Thus, the whole anti-DU fixation is the result of hysteria. Sorry.
mauk2 is obviously Roger in drag.
Note the similar writing style.
;-)
mmmmm…...depleted uranium
mmmmm…...anti-matter
You got it Eadora, sub-human species. mauk2 Rabbit was indeed wrong about which president the Rabbit bit. That however is the only point about which I am wrong.
You are indeed Ramjet though. I’ve been checking around this site and there appears to be one particular troll who keeps changing his name and posting under attempted different guises. Since we’ve already outed Lt Colonel ROGER HELBIG under several of these already. Apart from the format and tone of your arguments each time you don’t realise it but you’re making certain keyboard errors which are tranferring from one of your incarnations to the next.
You remind Rabbit of a lone soldier jumping from gun to gun pulling off a few shots from each, trying to make it look like there is a whole bunch of you. You have even passed off from one character to the next, like a relay team. Once in a while you have one of your faces compliment the other on it’s great intelligence and insight. “Happy Birthday to Me.” Pretty sad actually old son. Why don’t you stop your pathetic games, come and join the human race.
As for being scared, you are. You live in fear, you never knew anything else, and that is the truth. I’m pissing you off, you’ve never once attended to the simple questions about disposal of waste uranium, (same stuff) the actual measured radiation poisoning and birth defects. You’ve avoided the issue about DU being banned as a chemical and Nuclear weapon. You are a cretinous liar. You are supporting acts known as war crimes, we have your name Colonel and it has been added to the list. You will be held accountable for your role. The penalties for yours and your masters crimes include the death penalty. Your putrid world is collapsing faster than you can imagine and your judgement day is coming soon. Whether or not you know it or admit it makes no difference. Reality exists despite your lies.
You are a coward. Helping to maintain the lie so others can be tricked into dying, there is of course no way you would ever use these weapons or even go into combat. This Colonel leads from the rear.
mauk2, Natalie, Ramjet and all your other alter egos, you are decietful, stupid and cowardly. You have said enough to prove to Rabbit that you must understand the science well enough, you are not denying the Radiation dangers of DU because you doubt them. You are deliberately lying therefore and in the name of all sentient creatures, I curse your soul to eternal shame. You are on the losing side, but unlike many of your fellow rats, we have your name. There’ll be no hiding when the day of judgment come.
As for whether or not you are scared of Rabbit. You are. I’ve messed up your little games big time. You’ve tried to ignore my few simple irrefutable points and instead done nothing except try to insult me. Don’t you realise that Rabbit would be offended if someone like you didn’t hate me? You have tried to clowd the issue and changed your disguise repeatedly. You havn’t won a single point, except Carter which you’re welcome to.
Everybody knows who you are and they have utterly refuted everything you’ve presented. So why are you still here? Probably under orders and we already know your masters don’t know when they are losing.
Can’t wait to see your next trick Colonel. Why don’t you have all your characters come on at once? they could compliment each other on their insight and cleverness, back each other up and so on. Heh we’ll play along, we can pretend we don’t know they’re all you if you want. Whatever you do don’t give up. You are providing such a classic example of Government disinfo agent that people are coming to this site now just to check you out.
A few more names people. Rabbit may be wrong about all of these being one person but have cross matched them to no more than two people. Roger Ramjet, Natalie, mauk2, WhatTheHeck, al-Dakari, U Scare Me. Can’t remember any more just now.
Oh Colonel, you are such a dammed liar. Rabbit just realised you told another huge lie.
“Now, you are aware that depeleted uranium is less radioactive than natural uranium.
It is chemically identical”
Bullshit. Depleted Uranium is a thousand times more radioactive than natural Uranium.
End of Story.
Response by mauk2 To:
CONFERENCE RESOLUTION 2 FROM THE WORLD DU URANIUM WEAPONS CONFERENCE
URANIUM KILLS A DEATH BY SLOW BURN
http://www.barremore.net/depleted-uranium-kills.html
response by
Eadora we are actually arguing with someone that depleted uranium is dangerous, talk about surreal eh?. mauk2 is not going to progress. Rabbit is quite sure it is just the latest incarnation of Colonel Ramjet. Is this guy a fruit loop or what. He’s trying to bring Natalie up like a phoenix from the ashes, but he’s keeping mauk in there just in case. Not putting all his eggs in one basket you see.
If the Shill’s employers are reading this, don’t change the guy out, we love him. He allows us to fill in all the details clearly in a format that allows open minded people to both see the truth and to see you guys hard at trying to decieve them. Keep up the good work you silly shilly.
One last comment. I can’t stop myself. Roger says depleted uranium is less radioactive than uranium. For christ’s sake. All depleted uranium is, is uranium that has had most of the U235 taken out of it (the stuff needed for fission chain reactions in bombs and nuke plants). Since U235 occurs in nature at about 2 percent of all uranium, with U238 accounting for about 98 percent of any sample, depleting it has very little effect on total radioactivity, though it’s true that U235 is a bit more radioactive than U238. But again, it’s not the radioactivity alone, or even primarily, that is what makes depleted uranium so dangerous.
Nuff said on this whole string. We know who the liars and shills are, and nothing has been said in all this to undermine the point of the article, which is that DU is a heinous crime against both our own troops and their families and against the Iraqi and Afghani people.
Dave Lindorff
Yoh Rabbit!
They Is Lower Life Forms Fer Sure!
They expose themselves for what they are.
People who would spread Toxic Waste upon our world, and who would try to justify it with Toxic Lies.
THEY HAVE BEEN EXPOSED
AMEN. Thanks for the GREAT article Dave.
dlindorff:“We know who the liars and shills are”
And you used a baby and the word “radioactive” to draw attention to your shit article.
Q: Would you care to explain how posting information on uranium poisoning is costing American lives?
A: Simple, when the information is not true and it is used to recruit suicide bombers.
When they figure out we’re trying to kill them they become suicidal. We’ll just wait ‘em out.
And poison their water table.
natalie sez: “mauk2 is obviously Roger in drag.
Note the similar writing style.
;-)”
Hey, don’t laugh, the denizens of the fever swamp here are claiming that I’m YOU, too. :D
rabbitvoz hammered at the keyboard for a while, then finally mangaged to form a coherent sentence:
“Depleted Uranium is a thousand times more radioactive than natural Uranium.”
Sadly, this is completely wrong. :(
Lindorff,
Less radioactive than naturally occuring Uranium and it is substantially less so .. you are no objective reporter, but a shill for the activists. Did you read the Health Physics Society DU Fact Sheet? No, that would be actual research instead of lapping up whatever Rokke feeds you.
Now as to the slop he fed you, did you ask
for Rokke’s last efficiency report from the Chemical School that resulted in his beiong fired from civil service, not one that contains the usual puffery that Rokke received, like most military and civilian workers, before his incompetence was discovered.
No, I thought not.
Far as Rabbitvoz goes, I wonder how much he makes off of peddling the anti-DU line .. is he a paid employee of Traprock Peace Center or maybe Asaf Durakovic’s Uranium Medical Research Center .. which probably could find Uranium in anyone’s urine since we all live on Earth and Uranium is one of the most commonly occuring minerals on the planet.
I don’t work for anyone .. no one pays me to oppose you yo yo’s and it is not in the best interests of American servicemen to participate in your DU witch hunt.
Again, To all you Apologists of
Dave Lindorff sez: “Since U235 occurs in nature at about 2 percent of all uranium, with U238 accounting for about 98 percent of any sample, depleting it has very little effect on total radioactivity, though it
The author of the article that started this fun conversation triumphantly concludes:
“nothing has been said in all this to undermine the point of the article, which is that DU is a heinous crime against both our own troops and their families and against the Iraqi and Afghani people.”
Well, at the risk of wandering offtopic a bit, let’s address that then.
I have posted links to the FACT that the replacement the .mil developed for DU is far, far worse than DU is.
I have further noted that DU is unique in its combination of properties. It is the best substance that exists at destroying armor. Even the liquid metal tungsten alloy is only close.
Are you stating that the US .mil should stop using DU minitions without any replacement? Why would the military do that? Their JOB is to kill people and break stuff. They all volunteered to do it, too. If they aren’t careful playing with their nasty toys, THAT’S THEIR FAULT. The military isn’t full of innocent babes, it’s full of hardened, experienced killers, and I am thankful for that fact.
Now, about the Iraqi and Afghan peoples:
Do you want to argue that the dictator who formerly ruled in Iraq was “better” for the Iraqi people than their own elected government will be? Name for me any representative government, of any form, that was worse for the populace than a totalitarian despot.
Or do you want to argue that said dictator could have been removed without military force?
Do you want to argue that the catastrophic sanctions regime would have worked “eventually?”
Do I have to start posting links to the “oil for food” mess in order to make this point?
No, it seems clear to me that there was no other course besides keeping the status quo, or military action. Like it or hate it, we chose military action.
You use the military, they bring all their nasty toys. Lead and napalm and bomblets and mines and artillery and tanks and yes, even depleted uranium. But depleted uranium isn’t “special” in that rogues gallery. I’d argue napalm is much, much nastier, and sub-munitions and mines are way up there too.
This isn’t rocket science.
Sure, lots of people are (to further their own agendas) pushing this “DU is the devil” foolishness, but the facts don’t support it.
I used a half hour today chasing down the cites of one of the fever denizens here, and they all had NO FACTS.
Sorry.
DU is nasty stuff. But it’s no worse than lead, and is probably better than mercury or arsenic, and is WAY better than napalm. It’s not some magical ogre out to eat children.
You all do a mis-service by spreading these lies and propaganda without bothering to educate yourselves.
For shame.
mauk2:
My replies to your messages are below. But first a word to some of the more prolific particpants here.
People, would you please squelch the personal attacks? Even if they are deserved, they don’t do any good, and they clutter up the thread terribly making life difficult for those of us trying to have a rational discussion. There is no question that there has been a lot of exaggeration, hyperbole, and vindictiveness on both sides of the DU debate. Few people have remained untouched by these failures in rational argument. If either side wishes to make any real progress, we have to get past the invalid forms of argument, including the personal attacks. Please hold your comments if you don’t have anything nice or factually-supported to say. I realize in an issue of this tremendous import it is difficult, but it really is necessary if any of us hope to get anywhere.
Now, on to my replies to mauk2:
Regarding your comments, “The Uranium
trioxide vapor notion, I’m not so sure of either, but I’d be willing to
see that examined as a possible exposure mechanism.” I recommend the following primary source from the peer-reviewed scientific literature: R.J. Ackermann, R.J. Thorn, C. Alexander, and M. Tetenbaum, in “Free Energies of Formation of Gaseous Uranium, Molybdenum, and Tungsten Trioxides,” Journal of Physical Chemistry, vol. 64 (1960) pp. 350-355, state within their abstract, “gaseous monomeric uranium trioxide is the principal species produced by the reaction of U3O8 with oxygen.” They indicate that this occurs at 1200 to 1800 Kelvin, which is well below the temperature at which uranium burns in air (E.M. Mouradian, L. Baker, Jr., “Burning Temperatures of Uranium and Zirconium in Air,” Nuclear Science and Engineering, vol. 15 (1963), p. 388-394, in particular Fig. 6 on page 392, and Fig. 3.) By “monomeric,” the authors clearly mean “monomolecular,” and indicate that almost all such UO3 produced is in the gaseous state and comprised of single molecules. The fact of UO3(g) vapor production is supported by the first seven peer-reviewed articles listed in this bibliography:
http://www.bovik.org/du/2bibs.html
Regarding your comments, “Uranium is EVERYWHERE. You do realize that uranium is present in phosphate fertilizers that are used to grow most of our food, right?” The issue here is that 97% of naturally occuring uranium is in the safe and relativly insoluble quadravalent uranium(IV) oxidation state. You can swallow five grams of UO2 without much harm—a person tried in 1996 to commit suicide with 15 grams of uranium(IV) acetate, and it didn’t work; the patient lived after six months of dialysis.
The problem is with inhalation of the relativly soluble uranyl ion, e.g. in uranyl oxide (UO3). The hexavalent uranium(VI) ions such as uranyl—unlike any metalic uranium(0) or uranium(IV) ion such as in UO2 or U3O8—is “biologically available,” which means it is distributed into many tissues, some of which it accumulates in (e.g. the testes.) In addition to being biologically available, it catalyses oxidative radicals which damage DNA, and binds to proteins and DNA through ligation, which allows it to enter cells and nuclei. That is bad news.
The problem with the chemical toxicity of uranium is that it attacks the chromosomes instead of other reticulated cell structures, making it a harm to the immune syste (resulting in gulf war illness) and offspring of male exposure victims with increased incidence of birth defects.
(continued below)
(continued from previous comment)
mauk2:
Regarding your comment, “U238 is actually MORE radioactive than U235.” Actually, the reverse is true. All the three primary uranium isotopes decay by alpha emission. Their abundance and half lives are as follows:
U234 0.005% 2.5
What Roger Ramjet doesn’t tell you.
Bob Evans was a reporter, now editor, in a town where the biggest employee is the Army Transportation Corps.
Second, even with that bias his series documents the US military continued refusal to conduct testing for radiation contamination
What does Bob Evans say - “The US government advertises a test for its veterans of that war too. But the test that it offers can’t detect uranium in low amounts, has a high error rate and uses equipment that’s less sensitive and accurate than the machines the British are using. US vets and soldiers who’ve had this test say they’ve been told they weren’t exposed when, in fact, the tests were simply incapable of detecting whether depleted uranium was present.”
http://www.envirosagainstwar.org/know/read.php?itemid=2214
Evans documents the continued denials of the military of any problems with depleted uranium while getting interviews with men who have obvious radiation sickness.
Most of the sick veterans have symptoms similar to navy personnel at Operation Crossroads in the Pacific where men stood on ships as radioactive mist rained down. These men were then repeated ordered to clean contaminated ships for weeks in an effort to develop a means of removing contamination. For over 45 years the Navy insisted that none of the men had problems caused by their experience.
http://www.aracnet.com/~pdxavets/deny.htm
He is a troll. It is interesting the series he sites supports the claims of DU caused radiation damage but he only quotes controversial researchers in the articles that deny these claims similar to the way the military always denies dangers of weapons in use.
Gary
Easter Lemming Liberal News Digest
http://elemming2.blogspot.com
Actually Lt Colonel Helbig doesn’t tell us anything, in any of his guises. He has however helped draw out some good information via the refutation of all his posts by well informed people, allowing anyone who visits this thread to check the Official story in detail and to see a military shill in all his naked glory trying to stop the leaks in their rapidly sinking ship.
The use of Depleted Uranium in weapons and deploying said weapons is a war crime and so it should be. The US military has authored it’s own destruction with its present course. America will still have to answer for their actions at the end of the day.
Rabbitvoz is a “real man” or is he .. if he were, instead of sniping from the woods, he would step out in the open and declare who he is instead of hiding behind a pseudonymn. I made a mistake by using my real first name, but so what .. I just do not want my inbox filled with drivel such as Rabbitvoz dishes out. So Rabbitvoz, step out in the open and declare who you are, you know how to find me. I do not take kindly to being called a shill .. shills deceptively work for others and I work for nothing other than the satisfaction that I am providing truthful information. That is more than I can say for Rokke and his shills, one of whom I presume is you Rabbitvoz.
Again, To all you Apologists of
U.S. MILITARY
Heads Roll At The Veterans Administration: Mushrooming Depleted Uranium (DU) Scandal Blamed
http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/printer_15334.shtml
January 24, 2005—The Preventive Psychiatry E-Newsletter today charged that the reason Veterans Affairs Secretary Anthony Principi stepped down earlier this month was the growing scandal surrounding the use of uranium munitions (DU) in the Iraq War.
Writing in the Preventive Psychiatry E-Newsletter # 169, Arthur N. Bernklau, Executive Director of the Veterans For Constitutional Law Center in New York, stated that “The real reason for Mr. Principi
Hi ho,
I’m sorry,maybe it’s just me and a few others,but didn’t we learn from a century of history,beginning with Madame Curie who died from handling radium,that radioactive material is something not to toy with?Yet,what are we doing?Scattering all over Asia Minor in this ridiculous conflict!It’s funny.No it isn’t actually,that a substance we would want in our back yard is something we casually disseminate in Iraq.Of course it destroys armor well!Look at its molecular density!Yet are we also not smart enough monkeys to remember just how long uranium is radioactive?Please spare me the"depleted"part if our government won’t tell us the truth about sugar substitutes,what makes you think they’ll be honest about radioactive material?
A radiated country—one more reason for the Muslims to hate us for the next millenium.
Typo.
“would want” should be “would’nt want”
Sorry,the phone rang.
I’d like to address something else that Mauk referred to: whether or not the Iraqis were better off under Hussein or with their new “representative” government. You know what?
I could care less!
That’s right: I COULD CARE LESS. What I DO care about is THIS country, and we are definitely NOT better off. At the point of invasion, Iraq was hemmed in by no-fly zones, Hussein was relatively contained and there was little/no mischief from insurgents or terra-ists in Iraq. Any idiot laughed immediately at White House “speculation” that he was in league with Al Qaeda/bin Laden. As a secular tyrant, he had no use for Islam or anything else except when he could use the religion card (like in Gulf War !) to garner sympathy in the region. As a result, he and bin Laden were fundamentally different and definitely not buddies.
So, from my perspective, there was nothing there that translated into any kind of direct threat against the U.S. or our interests. At least nothing so pressing that it required us to bail on Afghanistan and leave the acknowledged master-mind of over 3,000 deaths on American soil at large.
Were the Iraqis suffering? Sure they were. Hussein and his vile brats were evil incarnate and their crimes and horrors were documented in many places.
But, while I can (and do!) sympathize with their plight, I have to ask how committing our military is serving our best interests. By any barometer, it didn’t. If you want to pull the lame humanitarian card - like Dubya did when his lies/deceit couldn’t be hidden any longer - then I would say fine, let’s go help the people out.
But it wouldn’t have been in Iraq, it would’ve been in Darfur, where the scale of slaughter and human suffering makes anything Hussein did almost quaint by comparison. We can’t be everywhere and everything to all people, not at the expense of our security. And yet that’s exactly what happened: we are so stretched with resources over there that we would be strapped if/when another crisis occurs. And just where is that bin Laden fella, by the way?
Back to the DU stuff: you can argue degree of severity all you want, certainly there’s no lack of opinions on either side. But the bottom line is that the shit is deadly, poisonous and like the in-laws from hell sticks around far longer than the initial visit.
And people wonder “why do they hate us…?”
Quote the
Let me chime in here one last time. (ok,maybe not the last time)
Obviously, both sides on this debate have agendas and basic political and ideological beliefs that are furthered or frustrated by the truth on DU.
I am new to this subject, although I have heard brief mention of it elsewhere in the past. I guess we have Cindy Sheehan and her “nuclear war” references to thank for bringing it more out in the open. Oh yes, and Mr. Lindorff, of course.
I’m on the vacillating side of the anywhere from 40% to 75% of the people, depending on the situation on the ground and the balance of reporting, that approve of our decision to invade Iraq. I’ve read several what SEEMED to me to be agenda-less reports that SEEMED to de-bunk the sometimes hysterical and sometimes frankly unbelievable claims coming from those who believe the use of DU to be extremely dangerous and prohibitive.
Maybe they aren’t as agenda-less as they appear. I honestly don’t know for sure, and would love for this issue to truly come out in the open so we could learn the best truth about is as possible. Obviously there are some risks, but are they justified in the context of war? One accurately placed bullet can spoil one’s whole day, too, and quite immediately, but bullets aren’t banned from the military, YET.
I would suggest petitioning reputable and fair investigative reporting media outlets, if you can find any, to take up this issue.
Like many other health and science issues, what we are led to believe by emotion and fear is often quite wrong. That can go for either side.
I appreciate jsalsman’s (James) polite and reasoned reply to my rather smart-ass questions, although I thought I did raise a valid point about believing reports emanating from Iraq during the 90’s. I don’t believe one could describe that regime and all they controlled as reliable sources of truth.
To those that insist on believing that Roger, mauk2, I and others are the same person, let me assure you, at least in MY case, that you are simply wrong. To draw conclusions from the timing of posts, for example, is far from “scientifically” adequate.
I could certainly make the same claims about you folks, but they would have no more validity or value. They would only serve to illustrate a certain paranoia, and a certain inability to argue my case on the scientific merits.
But then again, as I stated at the outset, I am not a scientist. I only pointed out that there can be much more than science involved in discerning the truth about DU.
There really shouldn’t be.
Ah, finally, someone who isn’t convinced I’m somebody else and/or calling me names. :) You guys better stop that, I’m gonna start crying.
jsalsman sez: “
jsalsman sez: “Regarding your comment,
From a Guardian article discussing the work of Alexandra Miller at the Armed Forces Radiobiology Research Institute in Bethesda, Maryland
When the dust settles
Depleted uranium may be far more dangerous than previously thought
and we could be dealing with the fallout for many generations.
The small change betrays a big leap in understanding the threat posed by depleted uranium. Evidence is building that DU causes more genetic damage than scientists suspected - even at levels deemed so low as to be non-toxic.
Depleted uranium shells are designed to be lethal: the metal is so dense it can crash through the heavy armour of a modern battle tank. But those who escape the intended effect face other risks. When the depleted uranium rod inside an armour-piercing shell disintegrates, it showers toxic and weakly radioactive dust and fragments over a wide area.
It is not just soldiers who risk exposure. In Iraq, land where people once lived, and will doubtless return to, is now littered with the stuff. In 1991, armour-piercing shells containing around 340 tonnes of DU were fired at targets too tough to take out with standard shells. Hundreds more tonnes have been added to that during the past four weeks. People returning to places where the shells were used breathe in the dust as it is churned up by wind and traffic. The metal can also seep into water supplies, contaminating them for years.
Alexandra Miller at the Armed Forces Radiobiology Research Institute in Bethesda, Maryland, is due to complete an investigation into DU for the US department of defence next year. Already she has some insight into the damage it can do. Last year she showed that depleted uranium from pellets implanted in rats dispersed all over the animals’ bodies, turning up in bones, muscles, kidneys and liver. Rats breeding six months later had fewer offspring than normal.
Her latest study reveals something even more unusual. When human bone cells are exposed to DU, some suffer immediate genetic damage. The type of damage varies but often fragments break off chromosomes, the strings of genes in almost every cell, and form tiny rings of genetic material. This much was expected. But as other cells evidently undamaged by the depleted uranium started to divide, creating new cells, Miller noticed the genes in some of these new cells were damaged. More than a month after the DU was removed, new cells were forming with broken chromosomes or other genetic damage. The DU was having a delayed effect.
More intriguing still is Miller’s latest suspicion that DU punches above its weight in terms of the damage it does to genes. She knew that depleted uranium could damage genes not only by emitting radiation, but by its chemical make up - like nickel, it can switch on cancer genes by its sheer toxicity. But she found that tiny amounts of DU, too small to be toxic and only mildly radioactive, cause more genetic damage in cells than either the toxicity or radiation could explain. Her latest results suggest that the toxicity and radioactivity of DU reinforce one another, causing more damage than the two just added together. It’s no small difference either. “You can get more than an eight-fold greater effect than you’d expect,” she says. In other words, more than eight times as many cells suffer genetic damage than predicted. Without taking the effect into account, the health risk of DU could be grossly underestimated.
“People have always assumed low doses are not much of a problem, but they can cause more damage than people think,” says Miller
Here is another Study discussed in a Guardian article
One person who is convinced DU-induced genetic damage causes real health problems is Albrecht Schott, a biochemist who recently retired from the Free University of Berlin. The day before the start of this Gulf war, he published a study carried out with scientists at the University of Bremen.
The study, the first of its kind, looked at genetic damage in the white blood cells of 16 former soldiers who believed they had been exposed to DU in the 1991 Gulf war or in the Balkans. They found that damage to chromosomes in the white blood cells was on average five-and-a-half times higher in the veterans than the rest of the population.
Kenny Duncan, one of the soldiers tested, was 21 when he served with the Royal Corps of Transport, helping to shift Iraqi tanks destroyed by DU shells in the 1991 Gulf war. He believes his exposure to DU has left his family with a painful legacy. His eight-year-old son suffers constant headaches and has deformed ears and toes. His two other children also have deformed toes and both suffer bowel and bladder problems. One is also partially deaf.
The reason is likely to be down to DU, says Schott. “The high levels of genetic damage we observed do not occur naturally. I believe alpha radiation from DU to be the cause of these chromosome aberrations.
“Uranium molecules in the blood can travel to every part of the body, including the areas where sperm and eggs are. This, and the presence of chromosome aberrations, increases the probability of cancer and other genetic conditions significantly. They lead to a higher probability of genetic damage in the person’s babies and then damage can be passed on to the children’s children.”
———————
Please answer the questions put to you
Posted by Eadora on August 29, 2005 at 11:15 PM
They are not technical they are moral questions. As apologists you should have no trouble answering them.
Oh and while your at it tell us why we can
Piss off Natalie. There is a lot more than timings showing who you are. The timings and tandem commenting are so obvious you must be getting desperate. Everything you say has the ring of falseness about it. If you had an open mind then you should long since have made it up. Not a single point has been established by the Colonel in his many guises. The issue of DU was not ever in doubt, hell my fourteen year old son even couldn’t believe anybody was questioning the dangers of Nuclear Waste. Lets start calling it by it’s real name people. Obviously the Shills are trying to avoid this fact among others. Now my 14 yo son attends university twice a week after school for an advanced chemistry course, he has a few clues unlike RogerNatalieMauk2. You have played the smoke and mirrors, spread the government line and in every way demonstrated that “you” have an agenda.
You’ve played the time honoured game of the mentally challenged by calling everybody else whatever they call you. You are not only coming across as a committed SHILL you have completely surrendered any claim to honour, reason or even average intelligence.
Now we have an agenda, all of us agree with the vast majority of the world’s citizens that DU weapons are and should be banned. Unlike you however, we are all obviously different people, with real minds and we are arguing independantly and have raised a number of issues which you are totally avoiding. Now if you really were two or three different people, it would seem likely that one of you would have made an attempt to answer my or Eadora’s simple questions. You havn’t, which suggests again that you are one and the same.
If indeed you are two people then the fact that this is not apparent is further proof of the very limited number of people who could try and sell such a load of blatant lies.
Natalie, you are not a female. If you think your act is in anyway female then you have obviously not known too many. Furthermore you are not open minded. You have so obviously got an agenda, do you honestly think anyone has bought your crap, why not ask who believes you? You are spouting the same smoke and mirrors tactics as well and linking to the same discredited info. SHILL baby!
Colonel go back to Roger Ramjet, at least it was more honest. mauk2 gives me an image of a scruffy, dirty seagull. We others share only our humanity and while we may share more or less of our personal ideologies with each other we don’t have to agree on everything to agree on the one thing that all educated sane people around the world know. Nuclear Waste is dangerous as Radioactive and chemical and it is even more dangerous when you use it for bombs and bullets. Stop blathering on about how dangerous war and armies are. The radiation will outlast all this races remaining years on this planet. The war may end but the death and destruction will go on long after dirty little apologists for war crimes like you are dead.
Now you are a real bozo. Since you refuse to answer my query about why Nuclear Waste was always considered to be such a disposal problem I shall have to try and guess what you would say. Its a conspiracy isn’t it BOZO, the medical associations, universities and scientists as well as the governments of most countries are all involved in a conspiracy to deprive the most powerful military nation of a useful weapon. Even a more humane one you would have us believe. Meanwhile a small band of scientists in the pay of the DU pushers is bravely fighting to bring the truth out to the world. You are a conspiracy theorist then. Fair enough, everybody else has been wrong and the USA military is the only one telling the truth, sounds reasonable. (to you maybe)
continued…
How about the fact that DU is banned as a chemical and nuclear weapon? Since the USA and Britain have deployed the stuff they have ceased to be counted among the civilized nations.
Let’s face it Bozo Shill you have been given a shit of an assignment.
“Go out and convince people that nuclear waste is no more dangerous than lead if you make boms and bullets out of it”
Seems like a tall order to me in 2005.
You have not convinced anybody of anything except that you are a military Shill. You were shown to be a liar and shill from the start of this thread and yet still you soldier desperately on. Tell us Bozo do you have any answer to the fact of DU being a banned weapon of mass destruction. Nobody is interested in your smoke and mirrors, we don’t need you to try and explain the chemistry of something you don’t even understand yourself. We already know about Nuclear waste, hell even my children wanted to know who would believe such lies when I showed them your posts.
Since you love Nuclear Waste so much I sincerely hope you are suited up in it one day. I hope you will put your money where your mouth is and start a nuclear waste disposal dump on your property. Do you realise how rich you could become? Do you know how much people are prepared to pay someone else to dispose of this stuff? Since it’s so safe you should be able to bury a few tons in your backyard and make lots of money. Or is it only safe when made into bombs and bullets then blown all over the place? Please explain oh great one of knowledge. Tell us poor deluded fools the “real” truth that our governments have been withholding from us. Tell us how nuclear waste has been unfairly vilified and is really not much more dangerous than Blue vein cheese, if you spread it on wholemeal bread.
Remember Colonel, 36 percent support and falling fast. How long before you’ll be standing in the dock as a war criminal?
From the Military Toxics Project:
DU has been processed and tested at dozens of locations throughout the U.S., creating extensive contamination.
- The National Lead Industries factory in Colonie, NY, closed in 1980 after DU particles were found 26 miles away and DU levels in soil were 500 times higher than neighboring areas. (Len Dietz, 1996)
- The Starmet plant in Concord, MA dumped 400,000 pound of DU and other toxic substances into an unlined pit over twenty-five years. DU contaminated soil and groundwater, and is moving toward drinking water supplies. (Citizens Research and Environmental Watch, Concord, MA)
- The former Jefferson Proving Ground in Madison, IN contains over 150,000 pounds of DU shells and fragments. The U.S. Army wants to walk away from the contamination without performing any cleanup or ongoing environmental monitoring. (U.S. Army & Nuclear Regulatory Commission)
Health and Environmental Damage
When a DU shell hits a hard target such as a tank or building, it burns and produces a tiny ceramic dust that can be inhaled. These particles can remain in the environment for many years, travel for miles on air currents, re-suspend into the air when disturbed, and migrate into soil and groundwater. DU particles that are ingested or inhaled can lodge in the lungs, bones, kidneys, and reproductive organs and cause damage through radiation and toxic properties. Studies have linked DU exposure with damage to the kidneys; immune, nervous, respiratory, and reproductive systems; cancer; and genetic mutations.
Research over the past decade has produced increasing evidence that DU can harm humans.
- DU has been found in the urine of Gulf War veterans and Iraqi civilians eight years after exposure. (Rosalie Bertell, Ph.D, GNSH, Gulf War Illness Conference, 1999)
- Animal studies found that DU lodges in high concentrations in a variety of organs; causes changes to the brain; crosses the placenta to the fetus; and is associated with mutations. (U.S. Armed Forces Radiobiology Institute)
- A recent U.S. military study found that DU damages the chromosomes that carry human genes. (U.S. Armed Forces Radiobiology Institute)
- Radioactive and toxic properties of DU appear to reinforce each other, causing more extensive damage than the properties would separately.
Yoh Natalie
I apologize if I have seemed over zealous. But there have been a lot of
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