Gerard Matthew thought he was lucky. He returned from his Iraq tour a year and a half ago alive and in one piece. But after the New York State National Guardsman got home, he learned that a bunkmate, Sgt. Ray Ramos, and a group of N.Y. Guard members from another unit had accepted an offer by the New York Daily News… return to article
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Reader Comments (526)How about it open minded all American Girl? You have all the tools necessary to make up your mind, so do it Natalie. If you really do want the truth, do as Eadora asks and then when you are ready to rejoin the human race, just say so and Rabbit will be the sweetest little bunny he can be in apologising, he is at heart a very loving Rabbit. Actually Rabbit would be pleased if you not the Colonel, the thought of Lt Col Roger Helbig in a dress really does disturb Rabbit a bit. Too weird.
Posted by Rabbitvoz on Aug 31, 2005 at 3:14 AM For anybody who wants to read a bit about LTC Roger Helbig.
http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_16798.shtml
If the shoe fits, wear it!
By the way Helbig, Rabbit shall make it a point to seek you out wherever you go on the net and that won’t be hard. Knows he does where you’ll be.
Please eat some Nuclear Waste for Rabbit. If you eat a gram of DU, Rabbit will too. Come on Colonel, maybe you have children you’d rather give it too?
Posted by Rabbitvoz on Aug 31, 2005 at 4:49 AM I’m gonna make this quick and you can agree or disagree but when lives are in the balance LOOKING and INSPECTING and THINKING FOR ONESELF is a good idea.
The emergency workers at Ground Zero in NYC were exposed to toxins that have never been tested, etc. before because the metals, etc became a fine dust and went right through the skin and into the organs, fatty tissues, etc. and they were causing illnesses especially respiratory problems, sleeplessness, and much worse.
The solution? The Detox Center where the PURIFICATION Rundown is delivered under a doctor’s care.
This is the only workable solution thus far for getting toxins which includes radiation, out of the body. It combines exercise, a vitamin regimen which includes NIACIN and hours sweating in a sauna.
Go to google and type in NEW YORK RESCUE WORKERS DETOXIFICATION PROJECT. By the way, this was the same program used on people in Russia after Chernobyl.
Good Luck!
Songbd
Posted by songbd on Aug 31, 2005 at 6:02 AM Just a thought, has anyone ever tested the WTC sites for radiation? Bearing in mind the talk that the bomb that went off in the basement was a micro nuke and the incredibly high temperatures underground days later. Rabbit never really believed these were nukes but still has an open mind on it.
Rabbit knows this wasn’t the point of your thoughtful contribution songbd, it just occurred to me now.
Rabbit hops away, nose twitching with curiosity and his ears erect and forward facing. Googling into the sunset.
Posted by Rabbitvoz on Aug 31, 2005 at 6:18 AM Dear Rabbit;
My intention is to point the soldiers who are worried and already have radiation poisoning symptoms toward a workable program to detox their bodies before cancers set in.Ever seen the worry on the face of a formerly strong and athletic young man or woman concerned that they will die before they marry or before their children graduate grammar school? Because I have.
I’m talking about helping to save lives by relaying important information.
When the clock is ticking and your body is deteriorating at a rapid rate, you should have a chance to reverse this situation as rapidly as possible. And from what the soldier whose daughter has 2 fingers on her right hand said, he’s still in physical danger and the gover-ment ain’t interested in owning up to the truth about radiation exposure amongst our patriotic men and women.
That’s all.
Posted by songbd on Aug 31, 2005 at 6:53 AM m_astera here again.
I’ve been out of town for a few days, but I see that the argument has been in good hands.
Eadora posted above that as of January of 2004, 518,000 of 580,000 Gulf War I vets were on medical disability. So 90% of our soldiers are disabled from that one. Cui bono? (who benefits?)
As I write this, the Southern States have been severely damaged by Hurricane Katrina; New Orleans is largely under water with bodies floating in the streets. Meanwhile, over 4,000 Lousiana Nat’l Guard troops and most of their equipment are in Iraq, and unavailable to help out in this domestic disaster. Cui bono?
Citizens who sought shelter at the Superdome were not welcomed, but were subject to humiliating searches for “weapons or alcohol”, enduring waits of up to four hours outside in hurricane weather. Cui bono?
When these Nat’l Guard and Regular Military soldiers return to the US, (those who do return), we can reasonably expect another 90% disability rate over the next dozen years, so they’re pretty much out of the picture, even those who wise up to how they were used. If they wanted to seriously petition for redress of their grievances, as in throw the lying rotten bastards out of government, they would be physically unfit to do so. Who would replace them? Their genetically damaged and deformed children? Cui bono?
Since 9/11, the “terrorist threat” that has been waved at us to induce fear has been that the “terrorists” would explode a “dirty bomb” in one of our major cities, a dirty bomb consisting of conventional explosives laced with radioactive material, e.g. DU. So, we are being threatened with exactly what our government and military are doing to the Iraqis and Afghanis.
During the wars of conquest against the Native Peoples of what is now the US, most of the Native Peoples’ strongest, best and bravest men were killed, the beauties among their women were raped and bore half-breed children, effectively taking them out of the gene pool and effectively negating any threat from future generations. The weak, the sickly, the cowards, and the traitors survived, along with those too old to fight or reproduce. Cui bono?
In reply to my question about how discussing the dangers of DU endangered American lives, Roger siad that it would encourage suicide bombers, and then said:
“If I thought that another country had deliberately spread a terrible poison on my country, I would give my life to fight that other country.”
Roger, the government of this country, and those who control them, have deliberately poisoned two generations of American soldiers. effectively removing them and their offspring as a potential threat. Cui bono?
You, sir, I call a pantleg-humping, bootlicking traitor to the United States of America. If you should ever awake to the outrage that you are helpng perpetrate, I suggest that the proper target of your suicide bombing would be yourself.
Posted by m_astera on Aug 31, 2005 at 7:03 AM As an addendum to what songbd posted above on detoxing, the herb cilantro (coriander) has been shown to be a very efficient heavy metal chelator—it binds to heavy metals and eliminates them through the kidneys.
Posted by m_astera on Aug 31, 2005 at 7:27 AM Actually this is a good outcome, this thread has started to attract a lot of attention thanks to LTC Roger Helbig and helper. Rabbit said you are entertaining and best of all without you this site would mostly just be people agreeing with each other on an issue such as this. You’ve given us the opportunity to polish off the military lies and expose the tactics. At the same time performing such fantastic contortions and moves that the lesson in “Military Intelligence” has in itself been edifying.
Expect lots of links to this thread over time.
Anyway rabbit just thought of a very good addition to the list of “treatments” suggested for those exposed to the vile Nuclear waste. Not sure of the spelling “KAMBUCHA”. It is a fungus and is used to produce a fermented tea drink which has awesome cleansing and detoxifying effects. It is so effective that if high level of poisoning it must be used very sparingly at first as so much of toxins can be shifted at once that the patient can die of poisoning directly from organ failure.
Posted by Rabbitvoz on Aug 31, 2005 at 8:27 AM Hey songbd hope you didn’t misunderstand me, as Rabbit said he knows that his digression had nothing to do with your message which Rabbit is completely in tune with. Actually missus Rabbit is highly qualified reflexologist and whole Rabbit family very natural healthy. We know and have known people in situation you describe too many times, but find all too often you can lead a horse to water but….
Here is url to some Kambucha info and Rabbit highly recommends any concerned about their exposure to DU or other toxins, take note of the valid tips in this last few posts since songbd.
http://w3.trib.com/~kombu/
Posted by Rabbitvoz on Aug 31, 2005 at 8:47 AM The author of the article is a complete joke. To ANYONE who has served in the military (something most of your liberals have not done) we know several of his claims are completely False.
1) As NCO in the military I had two additional duties. Unit Armorer (I fixed the units weapons) and Ammo Handler. We do NOT use DU rounds in our personal weapons, not gonna happen, just a wishful fantasy on teh authors part.
2) The soldier who claimed that he was not told the dangers was lying, doesn’t exist, or was not paying attention. Every year the Army has what is called Common Task Training (CTT). they are abotu 12-20 core tasks that EVERY soldier in the Army must complete depending on rank. I know for a fact that DU training was given several time especially in 1998. I remember commenting to myself when would I ever run into tanks damaged by DU. I also know I trained this CTT task to my soldiersand I was NOT in a line unit.
I just ask they many of you people quit spreading lies about they military especially when you have never served or if you belive what you see on TV. I bet many of you think that “Over There” is realistic depiction the war huh?
Posted by sacase on Aug 31, 2005 at 4:47 PM Military SHILLS know you not that you are not arguing the other side to a debate. Their isn’t any debate about the hazards of Nuclear Waste, wishful thinking won’t get you there and no amount of smoke and mirrors will change anything. People are stupid on the whole but just not that stupid. You are proving however that there is no end to military stupidity, not only are you not changing any one’s mind you are handing us the tools to awaken vaste numbers more people to the truth on many issues. This campaign to make Nuclear Waste Sexy is going to turn out to be the biggest tactical mistake you’ve made in the propaganda war. Can you not hear the distant thunder? That is the sound of the world waking up to your deceit.
Now why don’t you SHILLS prove you support your own fellow troops, stop trying to justify poisoning them and and demand instead that
“United States Department of Defense officials provide medical care to all DU casualties and clean up all environmental contamination as required by AR 700-48 and TB 9-1300-278; and, that medical care is provided to all DU casualties as required by Lt General Ron Peake’s April 29, 2004 order.”
Do you support your troops? Of course you don’t, you prove it by whoring yourselves for lies that nobody is ever going to believe for longer than it takes someone else to remind them what exactly “Depleted Uranium” is.
Now Sargeant Sad Case, what say you eat some DU for Rabbit. He made the offer before and he extends it to yourself, eat a gram of DU and Rabbit will to. But you first.
Posted by Rabbitvoz on Sep 1, 2005 at 11:52 AM Thank you for the correction on Johnston Atoll. There is, however, more to the story. While there in 1977-78 and several times after that for a week at a time, there was no clean-up going on of the plutonium. Those of us on the island before the clean-up began breathed in the plutonium fall out on a daily basis. Your lovely story about the clean-up didn’t really clean the island as, by your own refenced articles, The full clean-up didn’t begin until the 80’s. By that time several hundred soldiers, airmen, coast guard personnel, and civilans had been exposed. How do you propose that our Country assist the exposed or will you gloss over that? Plutonim or Uranium exposure to that deadly stuff is still deadly and it has affected several hundreds of people civilian and service members. I’m glad some of these articles are now coming out. It explains the death of several fellow JIers.
Posted by michaelvet on Sep 2, 2005 at 2:49 AM Michael read especially the posts on treatment kindly started by songbd a dozen posts since and good luck. Michaelvet take the time to read though the thread, since you obviously don’t need to be told DU is ugly you can skip the links. Just have a look at how much the military cares about you as evidenced by the military Nuclear Shill, LTC Roger Helbig and his mate the sarge.
Come on SACASE, tell Michael he’s full of crap. Tell him he is a traitor, and tell him that DU, Nuclear waste, is no more radiocative or generally dangerous than lead.
CHOKE! CHOKE! Heh the word is out SHILLS, you are about to get a wider audience here.
LTC Roger Helbig, are you getting a special citation for a job well done here? Bet your masters love you right now. But don’t blame yourself, you never had a chance from the start. It is too late to make Nuclear waste seem sexy. It is also too late for you to scuttle from the sinking ship. You are going down with it!
Glub, Glub!
Posted by Rabbitvoz on Sep 2, 2005 at 4:17 AM Hey rabbit dung .. if I have masters, then tell them I need a pay check! But then accuracy never was particularly important to you and I see that you still lack the cojones to write me direct and identify yourself and who funds you.
r*h*e*l*b*i*g@c#a#l#i#f#o#r#n#i#a-spelledoutinfull.com —I think that they have pretty good spam protection ..
Posted by Ramjet on Sep 2, 2005 at 6:26 AM Rabbit Dung,
Since you seem to like Rokke and Nichol’s fiction, I guess you want to be party to a libel suit.
Rokke is a civilian, so am I .. we both are retired reservists. He pushes his Doctorate .. but never tells you that his having a Phd gives him any real knowledge about the subject. I am not even sure that he is a retired reservist. I have requested a copy of his military records.
There will be no war crime trial because there is no war crime and debating some @#$$%hole like you on the internet is not exactly a crime. You just abuse your free speech when you falsely malign someone and that is what your have done. You have my e-mail address .. write me so that I can actually find you! I gather that you still don’t have the cojones to correspond directly.
Posted by Ramjet on Sep 2, 2005 at 7:43 AM I sent the following to Axis of Logic on 4/17/05 .. they made minor changes to this false article .. the truth matters very little to them. Unfortunately, bold text also does not come through in this comment block.
As noted in the bold text embedded within, the following article on the Axisoflogic.com web site which has been widely disseminated throughout the internet in the past week is false and slanderous and should be retracted.
Air Force Colonel Abuses American Citizens over Uranium Weapons Coverup
By Dr. Doug Rokke, US Army, Ret., and Bob Nichols, Project Censored Award Winner
Apr 12, 2005, 07:42“Individuals on web sites throughout the United States have complained over a period of months about the abusive and aggressive actions of an Air Force Lieut. Colonel named Roger Helbig,” stated Project Censored Award Winning writer Bob Nichols.
“Col. Helbig has consistently misrepresented himself and his participation, voluntarily or on a paid basis, as a “minder” or enforcer for the DOD lie about Uranium Munitions in direct contravention of US Army Regulations and Orders,” Nichols stated.
Nichols is a liar. Plain and simple. I have never misrepresented myself, but I apparently have had an impact on Nichols, Rokke and Leuren Moret, all of whom have made a career out of misrepresenting themselves and the degree to which the use of depleted uranium armor penetrators as “tank killers” represents a long term threat to people and the environment. I got into this because they claim it is genocidal and it is not; they claim that a memo written in 1943 refers to depleted uranium when it does not. I got into this because I have some knowledge of radioactive materials gained from taking a class in 1973 at Lowry AFB with field work at Rocky Mountain Arsenal, from leading a detection and decontamination team for two years, from being a reservist with the Alameda County Office of Civil Defense and from working closely with nuclear engineers in the decontamination and closure of a nuclear shipyard. I know enough to know that depleted uranium is not a nuclear weapon. They do not want anyone else to know that and since I have signed a number of my messages with my retired reserve rank they have decided that I am a paid “enforcer”. They have no proof because I am not part of anything. I am just me, and when I see lies I feel an obligation to see that they are exposed. The only payment I currently receive from anyone is my small retirement check from being a civil servant for 21 years and having survived three base closures long enough to make it past age 50 and 20 years of Federal Civil Service; I receive no monies from the Air Force or the Department of Defense since I am not yet 60 years old and reserve retirees do not draw retirement pay under that age.
“Col. Helbig apparently is fervently following the Secret Los Alamos Memo about Uranium Weapons (UW), aka so-called “Depleted Uranium,” instructing personnel to lie about Uranium Weapons to maintain the political viability of continued use of the Genocidal Weapons: “weaponized radioactive and poisonous ceramic uranium oxide gas and dust” in Iraq and throughout Central Asia,” added Nichols.
Nichols stated “Dr. Doug Rokke, Ph.D., is the former Army Officer in charge of the Pentagon’s Depleted Uranium Project. Dr Rokke is a career officer, loyal to the Constitution of the United States of America, not to any political party. He is the man the people of the United States can turn to for “on the level information” about the true nature of Uranium Weapons (UW.)
Posted by Ramjet on Sep 2, 2005 at 8:13 AM Previous demand for retraction (cont)
Rokke never was in charge of the Pentagon’s depleted uranium project, but it is important for him and Nichols to make people believe that because no one would attend Rokke’s lectures or join their movement if he revealed just how low down the totem pole Army Reserve Lieutenant Rokke was in Kuwait after the Gulf War. The Special Assistant for Deployment Health, Department of Defense described Rokke’s claims and role as follows in response to an e-mail inquiry from me:
We can offer some accurate information to correct the record. Rokke is a private citizen and does not represent the Department of Defense. Following the ground war, Rokke was
attached for duty to assist technical experts in the recovery and decontamination of radioactive material and equipment. The
team of approximately 10 people was led, not by Rokke, but by a civilian from the Army Munitions and Chemical Command (AMCCOM). Rokke’s primary role was to facilitate the recovery operations by ensuring the team had the proper support. Over the past years, Doug Rokke has reported varying numbers of ill or dead members of “his team.” These claims have been researched and are unsubstantiated.In 1998, our office compiled a list of 29 names of people Rokke reported to be on “his team.” Staff members were able to interview 22 of them. Approximately 15 of the 29 people Doug Rokke had identified as being on “his team” actually worked on DU-contaminated vehicles. Two of the 29 had died, however, in
interviews with the others, neither of these two veterans was named as having worked with depleted uranium.While we respect Rokke’s right to express his opinions, the fact that he presents himself as an expert, does not make it so. His role in the Gulf War and at the Chemical School, as well as the specifics of his educational background, do not qualify him as a depleted uranium expert. These areas fall well outside of his area of expertise and responsibility.
Dr. Rokke commented, “LTC Roger Helbig, United States Air Force: I would suggest that since you claim to be so knowledgeable about DU and my specific activities during Gulf War 1 and while I was the Director of the U.S. Army Depleted Uranium that you produce the actual official documents, not some comments by Bob Cherry or Ed Battle or Mike Kilpatrick, your bosses up the line, verifying your comments.”I have no bosses up the line. I do not know Bob Cherry, Ed Battle or Mike Kilpatrick. Suggest that Rokke provide his Standard Form 180, the one the Swift Boat Liars demanded of John Kerry, to show what exactly he did while he was in uniform. He is the one who needs to provide actual documentation. He is the one who has made himself something more than what he really did. (Since April, thanks to my digging deeper into Rokke, I have been in close e-mail contact with retired Col Bob Cherry, Phd in Physics and Certified Health Physicist (CHP), former Army Radiation Safety Officer, but at the time that Nichols slandered me, I had not even heard of him let alone knew him by e-mail or otherwise)
Posted by Ramjet on Sep 2, 2005 at 8:21 AM Demand for Retraction from Axis of Logic dated 4/17/05 (cont)
Rokke added “Unless you can do so, please cease and go away. But before you go away you still have not answered; why you, as an United States Air Force officer, refuse to support my / our actions to ensure that United States Department of Defense officials provide medical care to all DU casualties and clean up all environmental contamination as required by AR 700-48 and TB 9-1300-278; and, that medical care is provided to all DU casualties as required by Lt General Ron Peake’s April 29, 2004 order.”
I really don’t know whether the Army is or is not complying with these regulations. However, given the way Rokke, Nichols and Meuret bully anyone who disagrees with them, such as their portrayal of DU as the new Zyklon B, I suspect that the Army actually is complying, just like the Department of Veterans Affairs is collecting detailed information about DU exposure from claimants. I suspect it is just another red herring.
Dr. Rokke concluded “It is time for you to decide. The question is not about me, but whether or not United States Department of Defense personnel comply with their own requirements to provide medical care and clean up all environmental contamination as specified in AR 700-48, TB 9-1300-278, and all of the orders mandating medical care for DU casualties.”
The question very much is about him. He pushes the fact that he has a Phd, but he never really tells anyone that his Phd is in education and that the studies and research leading up to the doctorate had absolutely nothing to do with depleted uranium, nuclear materials or health physics, the areas in which he now claims to be the pre-eminent expert.
Posted by Ramjet on Sep 2, 2005 at 8:22 AM Sheesh, you guys! Please stop bitching at each other.
mauk2 wrote: “UO3 is, however, the least stable of the UO2, UO3, U3O8 family of compounds. As that gas cools from the 1200 kelvin temperature, it rapidly decomposes into UO2 or U3O8, depending on temperature.”
On the contrary, UO3 is stable and plates out (precipitates as a film) and has been detected as such by B. Salbu, et al., “Oxidation states of uranium in depleted uranium particles from Kuwait,” Journal of Environmental Radioactivity, vol. 78 (2005) pp. 125–135:
http://www.bovik.org/du/Salbu-uranyl-detected.pdfThat was actually the first time that UO3 has been reported detected—the Army has multiple documents saying that the expected it but didn’t find any (in both soil and as a combustion product.) They didn’t know about the gas vapor thing. If you measure the tangible dust, you get 75% U3O8 and 25% UO2. According to the U-O state diagram in the Gmelin Handbook, the actual product result is supposed to be about 20% UO2, 60% U3O8, and 20% UO3. It is unclear to me whether that much UO3 is actually produced, but it would explain a lot.
mauk2 wrote: “The formative rarity of UO3 is strongly supported by the fact that we hardly
ever SEE UO3 outside of uranium conversion facilities.”That is just not true. About 3% of naturally occuring uranium in ore and crystals are various hydrates and oxides of the hexavalent uranyl ion. Natural UO3 crystals have five different crystalization phases, eash with different color and density, but by far the most common are the schoepite hydrates. The schoepite minerals are hydrates of uranyl oxides; essentially hydrated UO3 crystals:
http://webmineral.com/data/Schoepite.shtml
http://webmineral.com/data/Metaschoepite.shtmlThe Pueblo native americans in the four-corners area apparently used ground schoepite crystals as body paints. There is some arcaelogical evidence that they knew not to ingest or use the schoepite in foods because of they way they were stored: the stone-age version of child-proof containers, on high ledges, away from food preparation areas. Other painting substances were not stored so carefully.
“UO2, as you note, can’t kill you easily at all. (15 milligrams is a LOT.)”
In fact, the suicide attempt was with 15 GRAMS of uranium(IV) acetate, ingested. The dialysis was only for two weeks, by the way; not six months as I claimed earlier: Pavlakis, et al., “Deliberate overdose of uranium: toxicity and treatment,” Nephron., vol. 72, no. 2 (1996), pp. 313-317:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&lis st_uids=8684547&dopt=AbstractThe point is that uranium(IV) and metalic uranium(0), ingested or inhaled, is relatively mild and causes mostly only noncumulative kidney damage, but the uranium(VI) uranyl ion, is bad news in the immune system and gonocytes. In all cases the chemical toxicity is generally more harmful than its radioactivity.
Sincerely,
James
Posted by jsalsman on Sep 2, 2005 at 8:40 AM sacase wrote: “We do NOT use DU rounds in our
personal weapons….”In the ‘80s, ATK systems made some DU 9 mm rounds, some land mines with DU casings, and even a DU hand grenade. They all were apparently tested, and the report with results of those tests is “sensitive” (essentially classified.) We do know that there were never any significant orders for anything but 20 mm (Phalanx), 25 mm (Bradley), 30 mm (the big category), and 105 and 120 mm tank and howitzer antitank rounds. The Phalanx system actually uses a 15 mm penetrator in a 20 mm plastic sabot.
“The soldier who claimed that he was not told the dangers was lying, doesn’t exist, or was not paying attention.”
They have been improving as the science has been rolling in. The mechanism of DNA action has only been apparent in publications since 2002, and a lot of the other pieces have fallen into place since. I expect by 2007 they will probably have a pretty good handle on what actually happened.
However, there are a lot of researchers who missed the obvious, the not-quite-obvious, and the downright obscure, and many of them have heavy professional and emotional investments in their negative conclusions. Science doesn’t always work well because personalities are involved.
For example, I am not envious of Dr. Melissa McDairmid, who had responsibility for following the health progress of exposure victims. She latched on to shapnel victims early on, ignoring the possibility of uranyl inhalation. As we’ve discussed, metalic and uranium(IV)—which is how shrapnel is metabolized—is mostly harmless.
At some point Dr. McDairmid is going to have to realize the whole UO3(g) vapor fumes exposure pattern, with its attendant chromosome damage. Then she can easily explain the immune system and reproductive damage she’s been witnessing.
Sincerely,
James
Posted by jsalsman on Sep 2, 2005 at 8:41 AM P.S. Phalanx is already converted to tungsten; the DU Phalanx system would occasionaly strike neighboring ships when it went off. The incindiary pyrophoricity was probably the biggest hazard the Navy had in mind when it phased out DU Phalanx ordnance in the late ‘90s.
Posted by jsalsman on Sep 2, 2005 at 8:49 AM I see that James Salsman, the intrepid internet researcher now claims to be more expert than Dr. Melissa McDairmid who does the research. He has a massive collection of things he thinks answer the questions, but if you want to see how little he really knows, read the many replies from the experts on the Radsafe list. Then you will find that he spins considerably, sounding believable only to those who know less than he does.
Posted by Ramjet on Sep 2, 2005 at 9:41 AM Rabbit Dung certainly has an endless supply of bovine excrement .. his latest .. claim the DU is a banned chemical and nuclear weapon ..
First, who banned it .. the anti-DU crusaders, Rokke, Salsman, Rabbit Dung and their hangers on .. the UN hasn’t. The International Court in the Hague never recognized the War Crimes Kangaroo Courts at which another anti-DU crusader Leuren Moret testified.
Second .. Depleted Uranium is neither a chemical nor nuclear weapon. A Chemical Agent is a gas, the first was Chlorine Gas, used by the Germans in WW-I in trench warfare; then Mustard, then the Nerve Gases, Tabun, Sarin, Soman and VX. DU is not one of these.
Third, any time anyone tries to point out the many fallacies of the anti-DU crowd, they are derided, claimed to be shills, when in reality, the anti-DU crowd are the bullies with the shills like Rabbit Dung who does not have the guts to privately write me and provide me his name. I guess he does not want to stand up in a court of law and swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth under penalty of perjury. If he is not willing to do that, why should you who are not confirmed members of the anti-DU crowd choose to believe him. Go look up the facts, learn about NORM, Naturally Occuring Radioactive Materials, with Uranium being among the most common of these. Learn about background radiation; learn what the actual physical properties of DU oxide dust are and how far such a dense substance is likely to blow. Don’t take my word for it, go learn for your self, but do consult a chemist or a physicist and don’t take the word of the anti-DU charlatans.
Well Rabbit Dung, ready to swear under penalty of perjury? If I don’t hear from you in my personal mailbox, I will presume that you are not and will make sure this comment list is fully aware that you are not sure enough of your bovine excrement to stand behind it in a court of law.
Posted by Ramjet on Sep 2, 2005 at 10:23 AM Given the following statement in Boston Globe article about study of the foreign fighters in Iraq,
“Obaid said in an interview from London that his Saudi study found that ‘‘the largest group is young kids who saw the images [of the war] on TV and are reading the stuff on the Internet. Or they see the name of a cousin on the list or a guy who belongs to their tribe, and they feel a responsibility to go.”“
What effect do you anti-DU activists think that you are creating? I think you are helping to create suicide bombers. Are you proud of yourselves?
Boston Globe
July 17, 2005
Pg. 1Study Cites Seeds Of Terror In Iraq
War radicalized most, probes find
By Bryan Bender, Globe Staff
WASHINGTON—New investigations by the Saudi Arabian government and an Israeli think tank—both of which painstakingly analyzed the backgrounds and motivations of hundreds of foreigners entering Iraq to fight the United States—have found that the vast majority of these foreign fighters are not former terrorists and became radicalized by the war itself.
Posted by Ramjet on Sep 2, 2005 at 10:54 AM Now Colonel Rabbit shall just prove what a F**king Liar you are again. Not illegal eh?
WIKIPEDIA
“In 1996 and 1997, the United Nations Human Rights Commission in Geneva, passed a resolution to ban the use of depleted uranium weapons. The Subcommission adopted resolutions which include depleted uranium weaponry amongst “weapons of mass and indiscriminate destruction, ... incompatible with international humanitarian or human rights law.” (Secretary General’s Report, 24 June 1997, E/CN. 4/Sub.2/1997/27)
A UN report of 2002 states that DU weapons also potentially breach each of the following laws: The Universal Declaration of Human Rights; the Charter of the United Nations; the Genocide Convention; the Convention Against Torture; the four Geneva Conventions of 1949; the Conventional Weapons Convention of 1980; and the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907. All of these laws are designed to spare civilians from unwarranted suffering in or after armed conflicts.
According to the UN, the resolutions in 1996-97 were passed because DU breaches several international laws concerning inhumane weapons: it is not limited in time or space to the legal field of battle, or to military targets; it continues to act after the war; it is “inhumane” by virtue of its ability to cause prolonged or long term death by cancer and other serious health issues, it causes harm to future civilians and passers by (including unborn children and those breathing the air or drinking water); and it has an “unduly negative” and long term effect on the natural environment and food chain. In detail:
Weapons may only be used in the legal field of battle, defined as legal military targets of the enemy in war. Weapons may not have an adverse effect off the legal field of battle. DU shells burn into fine particles which remain in the air or the environment. So they infect others over a wide range, and future passers-by, with uranium poisoning.
Weapons can only be used for the duration of an armed conflict. A weapon that is used or continues to act after the war is over violates this criterion.
Weapons may not be unduly inhumane. Weapons that cause cancer and illness long after the war are widely considered to be legally “inhumane”. Health issues to unborn children and civilians may also be crimes against humanity under international law.
Weapons may not have an “unduly negative” effect on the natural environment. The dust from DU impact becomes widespread in the environment, and (as with other heavy metals) becomes highly concentrated within living beings and the food chain.”Next lie Roger?
Posted by Rabbitvoz on Sep 2, 2005 at 2:17 PM Weaponized Ceramic Uranium Oxide Gas betrays the motives of its users in the US military and its advocates in politics, government and society. Just as surely as the Nazi’s poisonous hydrogen cyanide gas does for an impartial war crimes investigator.
Death Penalty for you nazis and supporters. Get yourselves a few meters of good hemp rope people, learn how to make a hangmans noose. There are going to be a fair few of these scum and the work could take a while. Best therefore you prepare to share the load. It doesn’t matter who hangs them just so long as they swing. Use their corpses to buy back some respect in the world, it would be cheap at twice the price. Good luck.
Posted by Rabbitvoz on Sep 2, 2005 at 4:55 PM Dance, Dance, Jiggity, Jiggity Dance.
Rabbit enjoyed that.
Whistles, here doggy, come doggy.
Posted by Rabbitvoz on Sep 3, 2005 at 1:19 AM Yoh Rabbit! Don’t be to pissed at me.
I would like to talk to this guy!
Your points are valid.
I know this guy is the “Banality of Evil”
But he does not know it.I have not the time to read your book, good friend Rabbit.
I do not post very often here.
I have not the time.
I have other obligations.I can’t figure how to send you a “per. Mess”.
I keep getting screwed over. It keeps telling me to LOG OUT.Behave yourself. Rabbit.
I know this guy is a goose. BUT
There are people who would like to engage him in dialogue.But they have not the time to read all your pages of very pointed and yet justified attack.
Relax. We can’t hold, and skin the guy if your busy peeling off his bark!
Your in a feeding frenzy.
There are other people standing in line.
Give us a break. Give him a chance.
He needs enough rope to hang himself.
Your not giving him a chance to take that rope, Pal.And I do not want to loose good contributors.
Eg. Jsalsman, McCarthy, etc. etc. etc. me included!Now “ Ram Jet! “ aka Helbig
If DU is no more of a problem than “Lead”, or a “Bag of Fertilizer” or backgreound radiation, why is “Radioactive Nuclear Waste” such a problem. Because that’s what it is Bros.!
Cut the Crap or we will all leave you to the RABBIT to feed upon.You have never answered that “RamJet”.
Is it because the people who “indoctrinated” you, never told you?
Or changed the subject when it came up.If it all drops to the ground, why did they find it in Montenegro, and Albania, places where it was never dispersed.
. Though Chernobyl, was not all DU it was of the same, or very close density.
Why was Chernobyl a problem.
Why was ‘Fallout” during above ground Nuke testing an issue.
And the resulting world wide, well documented cancer increase?Because good Sir. The “Particular Size” is so fine so small, It is a cermamic gas!
It can waft away in a slight breeze!
It can dissolve into the ground water. It migrates and gets around.Review my posts on how DU has polluted parts of the “United States”
Not to mention the problems they are having in Puerto Rico, and other places where “DOD” has been screwing people over with this stuff DU.Answer Question # 1
You have never before attempted to broached this one Helbig.Well I’m holding your feet to the fire.
Answer it to yourself, before you answer it to me or anybody else.
Why can we not just dump this Sh*t into Landfill.
Or if it’s no more of a problem than a “bag of fertilizer” as you have said and I have documented off this site.
Why can’t we spread it on our garden or use it as fill.Now don’t just back pedal on this one Mr. Helbig Military retireed. DEAL with the FACT
Question # 2 – The morality of it all. Using DU, Radoiactive Waste to snuff well over 100,000 souls of which how many were terrorists????
THINK ABOUT IT _ PLEASE THINK ABOUT IT>Do a google on “Banality of Evil”
Then read a good book on “Indoctrination and Brain Wash” then look in a mirror.Then have a truly religious experience.
A change of heart and mind!
Posted by Eadora on Sep 3, 2005 at 6:20 AM Dave Llindorf—I see that you are a truly objective reporter .. jumping to conclusions without having done any independent research. How much of your article is just lifted from the New York Daily News article (I can’t tell because I don’t really have the bucks .. the paymasters have not come through .. to obtain the article(s) from the Daily News archives ..
A real investigative reporter would verify that Sergeant Matthews really had symptoms of depleted uranium poisioning, not that Asaf Durakovic, who seems to ignore naturally occuring uranium when he makes his pronouncements of being able to detect minute levels of so-called depleted uranium (how he tells the difference between DU and naturally occuring U-238 is something that your readers would really like to know) .. not that Durakovic has not claimed that Matthews has been poisoned by DU. A real investigative reporter would not just show us a picture of the Sergeant and his daughter, but would show how the daughter’s condition most likely was due to DU and not due to any other cause. A real investigative reporter would explain how they reached that conclusion.
Then again, since Llindorf prefers to comment on this list along with such objective commentators as Rabbit Dung and his hangers on, I guess it is pretty clear that Llindorf is not even a real reporter, let alone a bonafide investigative reporter. What paper have you reported for in the past? Do you have a journalism degree? Did you ever write for anything other than a biased internet rag?
Rokke can not allow anyone to try and inject common sense and science .. it spoils the theatre. I wonder what I will find when I finally get his military records. I wonder what a FOIA request will reveal about his employment at the Army Radiation Laboratory. A real investigative reporter would have probed Rokke’s past, not just lapped up whatever he put in the bowl.
I am an individual, not paid by anyone, not affiliated with anyone and not under anyone’s control. The Pentagon forgot about me long ago .. and I never had a thing to do with depleted uranium as either a member of the active Air Force, the reserve components of the Air Force or as a civilian employee of the Department of Defense. What I did get was enough grounding in radioactive substances to recognize Rokke’s bovine excrement when I saw it. For that, I get slandered all over the world, but that is the way with you anti-DU activists .. you attack anyone who does not agree with you or spout your lies.
Posted by Ramjet on Sep 3, 2005 at 8:50 AM Announcement:
This site encourages debate about issues. The truth may be discussed but it is not in any way intended that truth should be established beyond doubt. Any poster caught seriously removing all doubt about any issue which is too unflattering to the US government or its employees will be edited out and locked out of the site. Furthermore their computer will suffer a serious hacking attack.
This thread has been re-arranged so as to undo some of the damage to credibility of a troll who is quite active on this site.
Another thread on New Orleans has had to have similar treatment because someone said too many true things about the US government.
Members are encouraged to discuss things but this site reserves the right to curtail excessive imbalance of truth. Balance means equal amount of lies and truth.
War is Freedom
The dangers of DU are in doubt.
All animals are equal.
Some are more equal than others.There is No Rabbitvoz
There never was anybody called Rabbitvoz
There is nothing to see here folks.Any member mentioning someone called Rabbit as having been a real person will be terminated.
You have been warned.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 3, 2005 at 1:59 PM “Any member mentioning someone called Rabbit as having been a real person will be terminated”
??????WHAT KIND OF CRAP IS THAT?????
That’s weird
Jeeze “Rabbit” I told you not to get to pissed.Anyway.
YOH! RamjetANSWER MY QUESTIONS _ CRETIN _ ANSWER THEM!
As far as Rokke, & Moret and their Bona Fides is concerned..
Posted by Ramjet
“I guess he does not want to stand up in a court of law and swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth under penalty of perjury”
He could be brought into a court of law and exposed”Have you ever asked yourself Roger, why they have not been dragged into court?
If they are entirely phony and propagating lies .
Lies that about their claims as to their histories and credentials
Lies that as you claim, damage legitimate government programs.
Lies that give comfort to the enemies of The United States.The government would have them in a court of law and they would be muzzled sued and no doubt prosecuted both in civil and criminal court.
Especially given the new goosey powers they have acquired under the Patriot Acts.
The fact that the DOD, do not want to touch them with a barge pole speaks volumes as to their credibility. DU would become a national issue and would be exposed.
——————————— ;—
Posted by Ramjet on September 2, 2005 at 3:13 AM
I got into this because I have some knowledge of radioactive materials gained from taking a class in 1973 at Lowry AFB with field work at Rocky Mountain Arsenal, from leading a detection and decontamination team for two years, from being a reservist with the Alameda County Office of Civil Defense and from working closely with nuclear engineers in the decontamination and closure of a nuclear shipyard.You have been Indoctrinated. The gray matter thoroughly scubbed.
You have been trained and programmed like a LAPTOP.
You move their motions and speak their words.Posted by jsalsman on September 2, 2005 at 3:41 AM
“many of them have heavy professional and emotional investments in their negative
conclusions”That’s you Roger, Wake up! THINK ABOUT IT!
But before you do. ANSWER MY QUESTIONS
One—-Landfill
Two—- Morality
Posted by Eadora on Sep 3, 2005 at 2:37 PM Speaking of “Morality” here’s a test! See where you stand!
[B]THIS IS A TEST[/B]
I don’t know where it came from.
This test only has one question, but it’s a very important one. By giving an honest answer, you will discover where you stand morally. The test features an unlikely, completely fictional situation in which you will have to make a decision. Remember that your answer needs to be honest, yet spontaneous.Please scroll down slowly and give due consideration to each line. You are in Florida, Miami to be specific. There is chaos all around you caused by a hurricane with severe flooding. This is a flood of biblical proportions. You are a photojournalist working for a major newspaper,
and you’re caught in the middle of this epic disaster. The situation is nearly hopeless. You’re trying to shoot career-making photos. There are houses and people swirling around you, some disappearing under the water. Nature is unleashing all of its destructive fury.Suddenly you see a man floundering in the water. He is fighting for his life, trying not to be taken down with the debris. You move closer. somehow the man looks familiar. You suddenly realize who it is.It’s George W. Bush!
At the same time you notice that the raging waters are about to take him under…forever. You have two options—you can save the life of G.W. Bush or you can shoot a dramatic Pulitzer Prize winning photo, documenting the death of one of the world’s most powerful men.
So here’s the question, and please give an honest answer:
Would you select high contrast color film, or would you go with the classic simplicity of black and white?
Forgive the diversion. A little humor even if it is a little sick. Please forgive.
Posted by Eadora on Sep 3, 2005 at 2:38 PM Eadora, if you don’t know what I meant you missed something. Rabbit already answered you last post with
“Bunny Quiet Promise”But it along with all my comments has been edited out and if you think it was only my attack of Roger, better check out the NO thread. Weirdly though Rabbit commenst on other thread still there, but Rabbit is locked out and his computer suffered massive hack attack this afternoon.
This is another computer and Rabbit slipped in back door.
See this thread. It’s short and sri-oracle tells all.
Expect they find me and shut this handle down too soon. Don’t beleive me check it out.
http://www.inthesetimes.com/site/main/article/2310/
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 3, 2005 at 3:04 PM Ramjet/Helbig wrote: “I see that James Salsman ... now claims to be more expert than Dr. Melissa McDairmid who does the research….”
I never claimed to be more expert, just to have found something she and all her colleagues and counterparts in other countries have missed. The best researcher will tell you that a few days in the library can save a few years in the laboratory. The Gmelin Handbook states that the “taking up of oxygen by U3O8 [is] not infrequently ignored.”
“read the many replies from the experts on the Radsafe list. Then you will find that he spins considerably….”
Care to point to an example? Few on RADSAFE have the guts to answer many of my questions, preferring to ignore them instead. A lot of them are invested in the issue, and a lot of them don’t need any controversy. At least the CHPs in the Department of Transportation pulled the free-ride exemption for DU that the nuclear waste and munitions industries had enjoyed for so long. Do you think they did so because they of radiation concerns? No, they reacted to the difference in the chemical hazard, which is much worse when you consider the UO3(g) vapor produces in a uranium fire, than if you ignore it, as so many on RADSAFE so convieniently do.
“Depleted Uranium is [not] a chemical ... weapon.”
Just because poison gas from a weapon was not intended, doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist.
“How [Asaf Durakovic] tells the difference between DU and naturally occuring U-238 is something that your readers would really like to know.”
The same way everyone else does, with mass spectrographic isotope ratio analysis. For example see his 2003 and 2005 papers:
http://www.bovik.org/du/inhalation-est.pdf
http://www.bovik.org/du/oef.pdf
Posted by jsalsman on Sep 3, 2005 at 8:16 PM DU is safe. We should add it to our water supply like flouride. Maybe it will strengthen teeth like it does bullets.
Sri Oracle
Posted by sri oracle on Sep 4, 2005 at 3:43 AM Sri,
DU is a metal, it is not soluble in water. DU is not used to strengthen bullets, but as a bullet, just like a piece of lead, another heavy metal. Learn more about what DU is by going to www.hps.org and looking at the Ask the Expert Section on Uranium which includes their fact sheet on DU.
Posted by Ramjet on Sep 4, 2005 at 3:54 AM Asking the Health Physics Society about DU is like asking the tobacco industry about smoking, before they started losing their lawsuits. For example, HPS program committee officer and author Colonel Robert N. Cherry claimed in official correspondence to the NRC that, “the army has safely developed and tested depleted uranium ... munitions for many years. We are determined to continue this record…. use in battle of depleted uranium munitions is essential….”
http://www.bovik.org/du/nrc-2000-petition/army-reply.tifIf you want a neutral source, how about the World Health Organization? “Until more
information on the chemical form of uranium and DU in the environment is obtained, it would be prudent to assume that it is in a soluble form (ICRP Type F).”—from Chapter 8, “The Chemical Toxicity of Uranium,” of “Depleted Uranium: Sources, Exposure and Health Effects,” World Health Organization, Ionizing Radiation Unit, 2001. (UO2, U3O8 are “insoluble” and mostly harmless; uranyl compounds like UO3 are “soluble” and toxic due to their DNA damage.)
Posted by jsalsman on Sep 4, 2005 at 6:50 AM Forgot the link for the WHO report quote. It’s on page 103 here:
http://www.who.int/ionizing_radiation/pub_meet/en/Depluranium4.pdfAnother thing I wanted to respond to: To whomever said that discussing the effects of DU emboldens our enemies, that’s just wrong on so many levels. Those who ignore the deleterious effects on our troops and the civilians we are charged with protecting are potentially worse in the long run than the nominal enemies. If you want to keep the loudest voices from speaking up about DU, then you are going to have to start with the states of Louisiana and Connecticut, which both passed DU monitoring laws. Should we require the states to give up their soverenity so that we can better coordinate a PR campaign? No, and we damn well better not touch the First Amendment, either, especially when families’ health is at stake.
Posted by jsalsman on Sep 4, 2005 at 6:59 AM It would be instructive to find out who funds Bovik.org and what James Salsman does for a living .. he certainly has not got much time to do anything else but try and confuse people about DU. Also curious what this organization is. Maybe you should enlighten this comment forum about just exactly who James Salsman is and how he funds this endless attack against depleted uranium.
I am going to send Professor Emeritus Ronald L. Kathren your comments .. maybe he will reply, but he does not exactly look like he is in the pocket of the DU munitions industry.
Posted by Ramjet on Sep 4, 2005 at 7:07 AM Hit a nerve? I’m just me, funded by myself, via my home business at www.readsay.com. I got involved when I read the Project Censored stuff a year ago, and decided to spend a day in the Stanford Chemistry Library, where by dumb luck (I have only an incomplete minor in chemistry) I came upon the Ackermann, et al. UO3(g) vapor evidence. Since then, it’s all fallen together, like shooting fish in a barrel, and it’s become a few-hour-per-day hobby. I’ve certainly learned a lot about the NRC petition processes.
When you email Ron Kathren, please include the following excerpts from his web site and ask him how he feels about hps.org not publishing anything that suggests uranium can harm any organs other than the kidneys:
“before the discovery and availability of insulin, uranium was used therapeutically for the treatment of diabetes; relatively high doses were administered by mouth to patients, but there were no reports of kidney toxicity.”
http://hps.org/publicinformation/ate/q1906.html“uranium is a weak chemical poison that can seriously damage the kidneys at high blood concentrations. Virtually all of the observed or expected effects are from nephrotoxicity associated with deposition in the kidney tubules and glomeruli damage at high blood concentrations of uranium.”
http://hps.org/publicinformation/ate/q754.html“Animal studies have shown that sufficiently high doses of uranium ingested into the body will produce damage to the kidneys, and at still greater doses may cause death. However, there are few human data available and those that are available seem to suggest that ingested uranium may not be very toxic to humans.”
http://hps.org/publicinformation/ate/q450.html“the chemical toxicity of uranium is known to produce minor effects on the kidney, which in humans who have suffered large acute exposures have been transitory and wholly reversible.”
http://hps.org/publicinformation/ate/q746.html“any such effects from ingestion or inhalation of uranium would likely manifest themselves first in the form of minor effects associated with the kidneys”
http://hps.org/publicinformation/ate/q611.html“the chemical toxicity of uranium is known to produce minor effects on the kidney”
http://hps.org/newsandevents/newsarchive/oldnews172.html
Posted by jsalsman on Sep 4, 2005 at 7:32 AM Mr Salsman,
You indicate that you have a minor in Chemistry; I was under the impression that one has to have a baccalaureate degree and a major in order to have a minor. I initially also was under the impression that you were a graduate of Carnegie-Mellon University, but then both you and the University corrected me on your having actually completed the requirements for a degree there. Now, I do not recall that you completed the requirements for a degree at any institution of higher learning. Perhaps my memory is unclear on that point, would you care to clarify this point.
Posted by Ramjet on Sep 4, 2005 at 9:48 AM Ramjet/Roger:
I said I have an “incomplete minor in chemistry.” Have you decided to focus on my credentials because you are unable to address the content of my arguments?
Posted by jsalsman on Sep 4, 2005 at 10:12 PM Ramjet
When will you answer my two simple questions!
Or when will you LOOK and perceive the face in the mirror!
Time to WAKE UP! Ramjet.
Answer the questions – FACE THE FACTS!ONE: —- WHY cannot we use our Radioactive waste as landfill?
If DU. is no more of a problem than: < Background RAD. A Bag of fertilizer, or a bit or Lead., As you contend! ——- ANSWER – or burn in Hell, like so many Iraqi civilians or US. GI’sTWO —— If you cannot answer Query ONE
WHAT is the Morality of Killing with TOXIC WASTE!.
War Crime!Answer! – Cretin ANSWER!
Cut the Crap – Look in Past the Smoke you have been fed, and Look into the Mirror!
and ANSWER! For your own sake ANSWER!
Posted by Eadora on Sep 5, 2005 at 12:19 AM The Ghost of Rabbit still haunts you lying Pentagon SHILL.
You are a gross liar, others have proven you to be a liar. Rabbit has proven you to be a pathetic weasel shill as well.
You mistake opinions for fact and probably wouldn’t know a fact if you were sitting on it, which is no doubt all facts are for you. Something to sit on.
You said DU is not banned weapon as Chemical and Nuclear, the fact is you are a liar and here is a fact which proves it once again. It also by the way provides ample food for speculation about you being tried for war crimes one day also. Of course this will take a test case, you are first in line to be it.
—-WIKIPEDIA
In 1996 and 1997, the United Nations Human Rights Commission in Geneva, passed a resolution to ban the use of depleted uranium weapons. The Subcommission adopted resolutions which include depleted uranium weaponry amongst “weapons of mass and indiscriminate destruction, ... incompatible with international humanitarian or human rights law.” (Secretary General’s Report, 24 June 1997, E/CN. 4/Sub.2/1997/27)
A UN report of 2002 states that DU weapons also potentially breach each of the following laws: The Universal Declaration of Human Rights; the Charter of the United Nations; the Genocide Convention; the Convention Against Torture; the four Geneva Conventions of 1949; the Conventional Weapons Convention of 1980; and the Hague Conventions of 1899 and 1907. All of these laws are designed to spare civilians from unwarranted suffering in or after armed conflicts.
According to the UN, the resolutions in 1996-97 were passed because DU breaches several international laws concerning inhumane weapons: it is not limited in time or space to the legal field of battle, or to military targets; it continues to act after the war; it is “inhumane” by virtue of its ability to cause prolonged or long term death by cancer and other serious health issues, it causes harm to future civilians and passers by (including unborn children and those breathing the air or drinking water); and it has an “unduly negative” and long term effect on the natural environment and food chain. In detail:
Weapons may only be used in the legal field of battle, defined as legal military targets of the enemy in war. Weapons may not have an adverse effect off the legal field of battle. DU shells burn into fine particles which remain in the air or the environment. So they infect others over a wide range, and future passers-by, with uranium poisoning.
Weapons can only be used for the duration of an armed conflict. A weapon that is used or continues to act after the war is over violates this criterion.
Weapons may not be unduly inhumane. Weapons that cause cancer and illness long after the war are widely considered to be legally “inhumane”. Health issues to unborn children and civilians may also be crimes against humanity under international law.
Weapons may not have an “unduly negative” effect on the natural environment. The dust from DU impact becomes widespread in the environment, and (as with other heavy metals) becomes highly concentrated within living beings and the food chain.Seems pretty conclusive to Rabbit. Rambo
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 5, 2005 at 1:32 AM United Nations:
http://www.unhchr.ch/tbs/doc.nsf/(Symbol)/7afeec7003489bb7802567550045e27a?Op pendocument
http://www.unhchr.ch/Huridocda/Huridoca.nsf/(Symbol)/E.CN.4.Sub.2.2002.38.En? ?Opendocument
http://www.unep.org/pdf/iraq_ds_lowres.pdf
Scientific:
http://www.royalsoc.ac.uk/landing.asp?id=1243
Now if there was any real scientific organisation in the world who would support genocidal ideas it would have to be this bunch of Ape descendants. Even the Royal Society isn’t prepared to ultimately sacrifice it’s credibility by running with you on this. The truly informed will know what this means.
http://www.ead.anl.gov/pub/doc/Depleted-Uranium.pdf
http://www.ead.anl.gov/pub/doc/Uranium.pdf
http://www.sandia.gov/news-center/news-releases/2005/def-nonprolif-sec/snl-du usand.pdf
Other:
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0508/S00085.htm
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uranium/0,7368,419839,00.html
http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/04/05/1356248&mode=thread&a amp;tid=25
Another 500 links here:
http://www.betterworldlinks.org/du.htm
These links can provide a massive amount of facts, DU lovers. Get some real facts into you then think about them a bit after a while you will notice a strange process happening in your head. As the process coagulates into new thoughts, which will be distinguishable for you by being new and maybe a little frightening, recognise that these things are opinions. Real opinions. We all here value these things in ourselves and others. What we do get impatient with is arguing facts against opinions. Actually it is pointless arguing with someone who cannot distinguish the two, but of course only the person with the facts can see this.
Rabbit will let you guys skin him now, if he needs it. Hope I do that he will join the human race, such stubborness can be a strength when channelled into truth and good.
Rabbitvoz
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 5, 2005 at 1:47 AM I swear Roger that this will be the last post I will direct your way if you will answer with a clear unequivocal yes, that you have read the post, taken from Wikipedia, and that you have verified it’s accuracy. Answer Rabbit Yes on this one and he will say no more to you or about you on this thread. Bunny promise.
Rabbit wants to establish that you actually believe your words, enough to stake your life on it. Your words are putting others lives at stake in our collective opinion, therefore put it where your mouth is and LTC Roger Helbig, answer for Rabbit and the world.
I Roger Helbig known as Ramjet have read the Wikipedia quote and have verified it’s veracity.
From there on you’re on your own, I Steve Pallister, known as Rabbit will not even say boo to you.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 5, 2005 at 7:32 AM GhostRabbit, what ARE you smoking? Gotta get ME some of that. Do you ship internationally?
The link you provided just above:
http://www.royalsoc.ac.uk/landing.asp?id=1243
Within that link is this link:
http://www.royalsociety.org/document.asp?id=1402
Which contains thus:
The Part I report draws the following conclusions:
Except in extreme circumstances any extra risks of developing fatal cancers as a result of radiation from internal exposure to DU arising from battlefield conditions are likely to be so small that they would not be detectable above the general risk of dying from cancer over a normal lifetime.
The greatest exposures will apply only to a very small fraction of the soldiers in a theatre of war, for example those who survive in a vehicle struck by a DU penetrator. In such circumstances, and assuming the most unfavourable conditions, the lifetime risk of death from lung cancer is unlikely to exceed twice that in the general population.
Any extra risks of death from leukaemia, or other cancers, as a result of exposure to DU are estimated to be substantially lower than the risks of death from lung cancer. Under all likely exposure scenarios the extra lifetime risks of fatal leukaemia are predicted to be too small to be observable.
Many soldiers on a battlefield may be exposed to small amounts of DU and the risks of cancer from such exposures are predicted to be very low. Even if the estimates of risk for these conditions are one hundred times too low, it is unlikely that any excess of fatal cancer would be detected within a cohort of 10,000 soldiers followed over 50 years.
Epidemiological studies complement assessments of actual exposures and radiation risks. Although epidemiological studies of occupational exposure to uranium are not sensitive enough to detect small increases in overall risks of cancer, they nevertheless tend to confirm the calculations of the risks derived from estimates of actual exposures to DU.
The main conclusions of the Part II report are:The risks to the kidney and other organs and tissues from the use of DU in munitions are very low for most soldiers on the battlefield and for those living in the conflict area.
In extreme conditions and under worst-case assumptions, soldiers who receive large intakes of DU could suffer adverse effects on the kidney and lung.
Environmental contamination will be very variable but in most cases the associated health risks due to DU will be very low. In some worst-case scenarios high local levels of uranium could occur in food or water that could have adverse effects on the kidney.
Again, DO YOU SHIP INTERNATIONALLY?
Posted by Natalie on Sep 5, 2005 at 7:45 AM Natalie:
Part I of that Royal Society report only evaluates radiological hazard; Part II discusses the chemical toxicity without considering reproductive or immune system effects. The closest they get is: “There is recent evidence that uranium may directly damage genetic material and there is a possibility of damage to DNA due to the chemical effects being enhanced by the effects of the alpha-particle irradiation.”
The following publications document uranium’s reproductive and developmental toxicity and its damage to the immune system. Who knows why the Royal Society ignored these primary sources and peer-reviewed medical publications:
Voegtlin and Hodge, editors, Pharmacology and Toxicology of Uranium (New York: McGraw-Hill, any edition; e.g., “Degenerative changes in the testes resulting in aspermia in the testes and epididymis ... a result of uranyl nitrate,” appears in the 1953 chapter by E.A. Maynard, et al., “Oral toxicity of uranium compounds,” in vol. 3, pp. 1221-1369)
Q. Hu and S. Zhu, “Induction of chromosomal aberrations in male mouse germ cells by uranyl fluoride containing enriched uranium,” Mutation Research, vol. 244 (1990), pp. 209-214
T.C. Pellmar, et al., “Distribution of uranium in rats implanted with depleted uranium pellets,” Toxicol. Sci., vol. 49 (1999), pp. 29-39
A.C. Miller, et al., “Depleted uranium-catalyzed oxidative DNA damage: absence of significant alpha particle decay,” Journal of Inorganic Biochemistry, vol. 91, no. 1 (2002), pp. 246-252:
http://www.bovik.org/du/Miller-DNA-damage.pdfJ.L. Domingo, et al., “The Developmental Toxicity of Uranium in Mice,” Toxicology, vol. 55 (1989), pp. 143-152.
A.F. Malenchenko, et al., “Effect of uranium on the induction and course of experimental autoimmune orchitis and hyroiditis,” J. Hyg. Epidemiol. Microbiol. Immunol., vol. 22 (1978), pp. 268-277.However, while the Royal Society ignored uranium’s reproductive toxicity, the U.K. government has acknoledged it in this Pension Appeals Board ruling:
“A former soldier has become the first veteran to win a war pension appeal after suffering depleted uranium poisoning during the Gulf War. Kenny Duncan took the Ministry of Defence to the Pensions Appeal Tribunal Service over his claim that he suffered depleted uranium poisoning during active service in Iraq.
The father of three, from Clackmannanshire, served with the Royal Corps of Transport as a specialist tank transporter during the first Gulf War in 1991. Part of his job was to move Iraqi tanks destroyed by depleted uranium shells. Mr Duncan’s case relied on blood tests carried out by Dr Albrecht Schott, a German biochemist, which revealed chromosome aberrations caused by ionising radiation. The tribunal found that Mr Duncan’s exposure to the uranium was attributable to his service in the Gulf.
“Dr Schott’s research formed part of a study of 16 British veterans of conflicts in the Gulf, Bosnia, and Kosovo, which found that they had 14 times the usual level of chromosome abnormalities in their genes, raising fears that they will pass cancers and genetic illnesses to their offspring. Kenny Duncan believes that his children’s health problems are linked to his service in the Gulf war. All three were born with deformed toes and low immune systems.”
—http://www.cadu.org.uk/info/veterans/17_1.htm
Posted by jsalsman on Sep 5, 2005 at 9:00 AM James,
These are all fascinating sounding studies, but I have a feeling the reason they weren’t relevant to the Royal Society is because they didn’t apply to real world situations.
Obviously, you can make mice sick if you feed ‘em enough of anything. The unfounded fears that have been unleashed upon the public due to those squeaky little devils is legendary.
The Royal Society seems to be focused on what the dangers of DU are on soldiers and on people that subsequently encounter the battlefield. Not mice.
Court cases are not in any way relevant to scientific reality. Just ask Nicole Simpson, if only you could.
Posted by Natalie on Sep 5, 2005 at 9:32 AM That Natalie, and you know what I think of you. Is totally beside the point. There are over five hundred links included above, many amny more than the royal society.
For a sweet all american girl with an open mind you sure seem determined to prove that DU is safe. Your juvenile attempt to be insulting doesn’t cast a shadow on the devastating attacks backed by truth to which you have already succumbed. Your persona is false and we know this, nothing about you adds up and you are shilling not discussing.
Anyway, The royal society is one, deal with all of the rest, you open minded girl.
But before you try any more of your crap on, nobody likes you have you noticed? Do please read the Rabbit’s direct cut and paste from WIKIPEDIA above then do what I asked LTC Roger Helbig,put it where your mouth is or be labelled a false shill. Verify the veracity of the quote, check the references given if you don’t trust WIKIPEDIA. (Can’t trust it maybe they are part of our anti-DU cabal after all.) Ramjet has not replied to this nor can he) Unless as it is Rabbit’s earnest he is having an epiphany this very moment. In Rabbit’s opinion, the Roger Ramjet is probably hiding behind your skirt. You see that Natalie Rabbit noted that was an opinion and since there is much that would suggest this it is not an unreasonable opinion to have. Right or wrong and I don’t much care either way, it doesn’t make me a liar. If I had said you were definately the Helbig alter ego I would then be lying. You see to state an opinion as fact is lying. But to have a wrong opinion especially a qualified one, is quite forgivable on its own.
To deny that the use of DU is a war crime, is a lie. Therefore confirm you have read and understood the veracity, then give us your opinion. Even though most of us can predict your opinions on just about anything, (We can watch TV, the script, too) Rabbit even is stumped on what your opinion may be after having read and understood this fact. Rabbit is not interested in arguing opinions with people. He will express his and you may welcome to yours. What Rabbit will ensure is that facts are established, nobody can argue facts. They are either provable or not. If not they are opinion.
What will it be Natalie. Will you now morph into a third face and avoid this one question?
Rabbit isn’t even asking two, twice as hard, like Eadora. Rabbit has less ambition, he will settle for your opinion, based on a provable, agreed fact. One question if you dare.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 5, 2005 at 12:24 PM You have continued to claim you are trying to make your mind up Natalie. You have cheered for Ramjet several times despite the fact that quite a few people have clearly and independantly using many different sources and making clear points, destroyed everything Ramjet is and has said. He has been exposed, last time challenged him on the WAR Crimes issue he vanished until Rabbit suddenly was pulled from the site. The site has re-instated my other posts and Rabbit is happy to let his personal attacks of Roger stay off. He heard me once, he knows how utterly he was licked. As soon however as Rabbit seemed out of the way, the Colonel crawled back under the door and began his usual tricks of waffle, waffle, lie lie. Now Rabbit presents the same fact and ping, gone is the Colonel and Ping, back is the Natalie.
Rabbit has pointed out from the first time he read your hollow words, Natalie, you are also a Disinfo Shill and whether or not you are a Pentagon female, or Roger in drag does not matter you have completely given the game away. You have no choice but to verify the FACT that the US is committing a war crime with DU, and then offer your opinion about this. Good or bad. Rabbit predicts you will dissapear rather than face up to one indisputable fact. You will argue opinions till the piper must be paid, but one indisputable fact which throws your lies into focus, then what? Run away? Lie some more? Waffle or try to be smart and hope nobody notices you’re not answering a straight question? We have noticed Natalie.Walk the plank Captain Natalie.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 5, 2005 at 1:45 PM You’re somewhat less abusive now, Rabbit, and that’s appreciated. You still don’t seem to have gotten over your paranoia, although there are signs it’s on the wane.
You sure like to demand things from people a lot, don’t you. Eadora does too. Hmmm….could it be? Rabbit and Eadora the same person? Seems plausible enough. ;-) Damn the science, I deem it so!!
Let me ask you some questions, and I’ll attempt to answer yours when I have more time.
Why would all these scientists at the Royal Society, whatever that is, put their reputations and credibility on the line by making such definitive statements as those above?
Why do so many other reputable scientists do the same?
Why do most of the scientists on the other side of the argument seem so often to be hiding their true credentials and backgrounds?
You seem actually be quite a creative and prolific writer, Rabbit. You’re very entertaining and endearing in a strange way. Might you point us to some other writings you’ve made on the web?
Posted by Natalie on Sep 5, 2005 at 5:18 PM Natalie:
Perhaps the Royal Society ignored the reproductive toxicity of uranium in their report because it was written before the publication of these papers:
“Overall, the risk of any malformation among pregnancies reported by men was 50% higher in [U.K.] Gulf War Veterans (GWV) compared with Non-GWVs”
—Doyle et al. Int. J. Epidemiol., vol. 33 (2004), pp. 74-86:
http://ije.oupjournals.org/cgi/content/full/33/1/74“Infants conceived postwar to male [U.S.] GWVs had significantly higher prevalence of tricuspid valve insufficicieny (relative risk [RR], 2.7; 95% confidence interval [CI], 1.1-6.6; p = 0.039) and aortic valve stenosis (RR, 6.0; 95% CI, 1.2-31.0; p = 0.026) compared to infants conceived postwar to nondeployed veteran males. Among infants of male GWVs, aortic valve stenosis (RR, 163; 95% CI, 0.09-294; p = 0.011) and renal agenesis or hypoplasia (RR, 16.3; 95% CI, 0.09-294; p = 0.011) were significantly higher among infants conceived postwar than prewar.”
—Birth Defects Res A Clin Mol Teratol. vol. 67, no. 4 (2003), pp. 246-60: http://www.bovik.org/du/mscusn/BD_Infants_GWV_AR_AZ_CA_GA_HI_IA_1989-1993.pdfIf anyone has hypothesized any substance other than uranium which could have caused an increase in birth defects in U.S. and U.K. troops as well as Basrah civilians, I haven’t heard about it. And believe me, I’ve been asking around. Not even any of the NRC DU munitions licensees have been able to come up with an alternative hypothesis in their response to my 10 CFR 2.206 petition, and the best the uranium mining industry was able to do in response to my NRC rulemaking petition was find an M.D., Dr. Nancy Standler, who said, “... if your committee were to decide that you wanted to worry about the reproductive toxicity effects, it is not at all clear that you would be able to figure out what an appropriate acceptable exposure would be.”
Sincerely,
James
Posted by jsalsman on Sep 5, 2005 at 7:40 PM Natalie, you are right about Rabbit in many ways, whether or not you realise it. Stop trying to copy Rabbit’s style, your attempts at wit go up like lead balloons. You don’t fool anybody with your transparent avoidance of one real, verifiable fact. Eadora and Rabbit have been straight up with you. You just keep wriggling. We are not doing more than asking you to prove you believe in your cause. Remember do you how you claimed from the start and repeatedly since that you just trying to make up your mind? Rabbit called you from the start, you have been referring to Rabbit as Paranoid from the start, for doing no more than “correctly” identifying your game and the Ramjets. Since you have stuck to the script perfectly as Rabbit predicted, don’t you think it’s time to stop pretending Rabbit was ever wrong about you? You are not convincing anyone, why don’t you ask if anyone believes you are what you say?
Like Roger you keep on demonstarting your paranoia. You seem so sure that we on this site are not who we say we are. James, Rabbit, others too have stated their position clearly. Names given too. Ramjet got such a shock when his name came out he went berserk trying to get Rabbit to do same, thinking somehow this could cause Rabbit as much consternation as he felt. But no, Rabbit gave his name and all without hesitation and Ramjet proved what a cretin he is by continuing to demand it. Didn’t he read the post to which he was answering? Of course not.
Rabbit has not changed dear Natalie. At 42 am a Fire Rabbit born of Water, we don’t change.
Natalie, Rabbit is what he has been for a long time. Rabbit once was a lone voice in the widerness. Now the crowd is growing. Nat, Rabbit has for a while actually decided you are Female after all, even though Rabbit’s 14 yo son read you and said you not. What would a teenager know about girls, eh? What Rabbit would guess though is that you are military female, explains the martial tone. Just a harmless guess, sweetheart. Opinion you know. facts are the only thing Rabbit is prepared to argue, opinions all are welcome to. Rabbit knows the answer to everything and the reason for war, and argument and hate. It is due only to people having lost the ability, (maybe never had it), of distinguishing Fact from Opinion.
More for Natalie…
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 6, 2005 at 1:33 AM Rabbit has requested and does so again that you deal with the one fact, clearly pointed to by WIKIPEDIA above. Don’t argue it as an opinion, it isn’t. It is a fact, if you truly as smart as Rabbit suspects, you must know the truth of what Rabbit has said. Natalie, Rabbit has stated his opinions, directly and indirectly. Rabbit is not arguing these with anyone. All Rabbit is trying to do is establish a fact which is irrevocable, so we can move on from here.
Rabbit has said your opinion is yours, but, you must say what is your opinion to the fact that use of DU by US and Britain is banned under international law.
Remember, you can’t say it isn’t banned, Roger did and knows he is beat. If he crawls back, he will be pinned to the wall. Even if he follows the WIKIPEDIA post without acknowledging it it is likely that the evidence will swtand in court. Bet he is consulting with lawyers right this minute in fact.
Natalie you actually like Rabbit a bit, and he hasn’t given up on you. Rabbit has tried to give you the most simple tool with which to reclaim, your soul. One irrefutable fact which forces you to form an opinion of your own. If your military and country are committing not one, but several war crimes, do you support this?
Natalie, if you face up to that, you know what you must answer, Rabbit knows. After that everything else is academic, you know it Nat. Babe, the people for whom you are shilling don’t care about you. They are sacrificing many people better than you on a daily basis and loving it. They will use you then caste you aside when it suits them or because someone forgot to fill in the right form.
Natalie, the things you sense about Rabbit are not imaginary. Rabbit knows things you do not. Rabbit is a magic Rabbit. Rabbit is not in the world to cause more arguments and wars, he is here to stop this silliness. Rabbit has given many the keys to true freedom and they are yours for the taking. Just force yourself to look at the one fact then answer it.
yes Rabbit has been around and is known on the net. Rabbit will have a blog or site up soon by popular request. (famous Rabbit) But has resisted this for long because he feels there is already too much of this. Better we could concentrate humanity a bit more so they could share more of what we all have in common, ideals. From such a start we might come to realise we have no differences beyond opinions. These would be closer thinks Rabbit if all had the right faxcts upon which to base opinions. Please Natalie, join the winning side. We do have the numbers, we are winning. Go to the New Orleans thread and save Rabbit saying more here. It has been said there.
=—- Rabbit
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 6, 2005 at 1:35 AM Natalie, Roger & all DU Apologists
A bit of a Re-post here
Seems I must remind you. I need a couple of answers from youAnswers to questions you have consistently ignored.
When will you answer my two simple questions!
Or when will you LOOK and perceive the face in the mirror!
.
Answer the questions – FACE THE FACTS!ONE: —-
If DU. is no more of a problem than the Background RAD. in bag of fertilizer, or a bit or Lead., As you contend! ——-
ANSWER – WHY cannot we use our Radioactive waste in landfill?
WHY is it an issue???TWO——If you cannot answer Query ONE
WHAT is the Morality of Killing with TOXIC WASTE!If You cannot answer these most simple questions all your arguments and disinformation collapses.
And the Rabbit is right, it is a most egregious “War Crime” for Sure!
Why attempt to defend the indefensible?
You do YOURSELF damage.
And that is banality of evil.Answer!
Cut the Crap – Look in Past the Smoke you have been fed, and Look into the Mirror!and ANSWER! For your own sake ANSWER!
Posted by Eadora on Sep 6, 2005 at 3:48 AM Mr. Salsman,
From your link, which was:
http://ije.oupjournals.org/cgi/content/full/33/1/74
Looking at the free abstract, and reading the conclusion:
” We found no evidence for a link between paternal deployment to the Gulf war and increased risk of stillbirth, chromosomal malformations, or congenital syndromes. Associations were found between fathers’ service in the Gulf war and increased risk of miscarriage and less well-defined malformations, but these findings need to be interpreted with caution as such outcomes are susceptible to recall bias. The finding of a possible relationship with renal anomalies requires further investigation. There was no evidence of an association between risk of miscarriage and mothers’ service in the gulf.”
How does this conclusion support your apparent contention that this study would have somehow changed the Royal Society’s conclusion?
It seems to me to be rather consistent. Not necessarily a total pass, but certainly no support for the level of hysteria we see from some.
Posted by Natalie on Sep 6, 2005 at 4:52 AM No hysteria other than yours child, just answer the Rabbit and stop embarrassing yourself.
Cannot ignore something as big as this forever.
Not even if we are “not exactly open minded” dear girl.
You have expressed opinions. Rabbit has raised one fact which relates very directly to your opinion, Eadora another, they are facts, they do reflect on the stance you have displayed from word go. You must either deal with them or nothing else you say looks to be anything than avoiding facts.
You want to talk about opinions, yet you won’t put yours to the test. The test of how does it stack up against an irrefutable fact.
If you can’t recognise a calm patient and immeasurably superior soul when he is addressing you, labelling him a looney is lunacy.
Have you ever seen a child trying to best an adult in an argument?
Give your opinion on how the Wikipedia entry relates to DU usage by a supposedly superior nation.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 6, 2005 at 5:38 AM Natalie, stop w*nking. The Royal society was one out of more than five hundred references and Rabbit pointed out that they of all scientific groups would bend over backwards for the military. You know nuthin Babe!
If that’s your point of contention, it ain’t worth spit next to the one opinion I’m asking you to formulate. You are yet to formulate that opinion. You are resisting Rabbit’s gentle persuasion, compelling you to look at this one real real shiny thing, which is so captivating. The shiny thing Rabbit call it truth, you must but look at it and tell me what you call it Nat. Then Natalie tell Rabbit what opinion you are left with upon some reflection on not just this but all my firm but gentle admonitions. Rabbit knows you are slipping, your soul is not yet dead, that is why Rabbit knew you not the Colonel. (Maybe Captain?) Just a joke, see, Rabbit is a funny thing, looks a bit funny, moves in a weird way and seems to be able to move almost like magic its so quick. But Rabbit not has time for arguing with people forever. Rabbits not live as long as people think they will. Rabbit has just few short years to learn all there is and make it work. Rabbit has no time for most of your foibles and fears. You have but one small problem as a species. You lost the ability, if you ever had it, to recognise true facts and base your opinions on these. You forgot to define your ideals and let others do it for you. Why would you pay anyone to to tell you what you should be dying and killing for. Don’t you already know those few ideals Rabbit has mentioned are all there is. There is no mystery you religious nuts. No spook god in your image or anyone elses. If Rabbit as simple as humans he thinks god is just a bigger version of him who lives longer. You for example.
You are not God. Rabbit knows God must be so big and live for so long he cannot be more or less like the whole universe. No where God will be more than somewhere else. He bigger is than our Rock drifting in space. Why any God would see one side of the Rock’s inhabitantas as any different to those from the other side makes no sense to Rabbit.
So stop taking about science and religion as if these things are ideals, they are not.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 6, 2005 at 5:54 AM I’m not sure you understand my point, Rabbit. You cited the Royal Society link first. I pointed out that their conclusions on DU tend to support the camp that says it’s not really much of a concern. I was flabbergasted that you posted the link, thus my question about shipping internationally. BTW, your first two links on that post were expired or incorrect, unless perhaps it was me.
Mr. Salsman then posted a link to a study that I assume he thought did not support the Royal Society’s conclusions. I pointed out that they pretty much did.
Are the United Nations resolutions listed on Wikipedia binding? Does it suprise you that a body composed of so many corrupt, oppressive, anti-American dictators that can’t decide on a definition of terrorism would vote to classify one of our most effective weapons/defenses illegal?
Are you saying we have broken codified international law in using DU weapons? I’m no more a lawyer than I am a scientist, but I don’t think so.
Now you don’t want to talk about science?
Posted by Natalie on Sep 6, 2005 at 8:05 AM Natalie you are starting to gibber. Rabbit simply cut and pasted a few of the links from the Wikipedia site. The DU issue is thoroughly documented history and not some new debate you are buying into. You are patently trying to create doubt where there is none. You have failed to address the one FACT, instead you try and waffle around it. The United Nations and several other bodies involved with what is a world wide acceptance of the fact that DU weaponry constitues a WAR CRIME. There doesn’t have to be anything more than “ONCE”, your regime falls, and it is going down the gurgler now, cow. Don’t warble on when nobody, except maybe yourself can take you seriously.
All it takes is JUNTA to fall. Resolutions merely reported in WIKIPEDIA, but it has more than enough links for you to verify the quote.
The quote makes the World Opinion about this. The world, as the majority of the World will define itself, chickens, will look to these resolutions which you will note were passed and have actually been strengthened since I might add.
They will then hold the people who authorised, carried out and supported these attacks accountable. You do not have to be a lawyer. You will be able to hire one, or one will otherwise be appointed for you. For this itself you should be grateful, because right now many people who have done far less than you are being held, without charge, without contact with their families, or even decent conditions in which to spend their time between torture sessions. By the Junta you so openly, brazenly support. Or at least you slyly support their most inhumane act so far, the wickedest most insane act of long term genocide in recorded history.
Would you like to give us your name, something Rabbit never asked of anyone yet. Would you like to attach your name to the list of known supporters, (propagandists they’ll probably call you, but Rabbit will be polite), of the US military use of Depleted Uranium Weapons in contravention of Interneational treaties and lord knows how many individual countries laws.
If you are cool with that even Rabbit will have to take you seriously, he will see if he can find anyway to explain such a crazy act.
Rabbit no lawyer either. He has been arrested, been locked up years before getting to court only to have charges thrown out, always was lies, could prove it but we have little more justice than America these days. Knows he does how much fun it isn’t, even when innocent you are.
Consult with a lawyer first, but unless you will risk your life on the chance that you are wrong, why should you be allowed to cheerlead for others to do the same.
Check Fact, Give stance.
Put your ass on the line you vicious vixen, or get the hell off a forum in which you have ceased to be more than a minor amusement for Rabbit now. There will always be enough archives around, stored for decades to come no matter what your crazy bosses pull off.
We’ll retrieve enough so that your antics will live on for the benefit of all.
Do you want to take a risk for the sake of your “cause” Nuclear Nat?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 6, 2005 at 9:13 AM Just a guess but it will soon be proven either way. The only Corrupt (BY US standards)Dictators who could be called oppressive, are actually the only sort of support the US gets in the UN these days. Everybody else is anti US for good reason as we will establish as soon as you grow a spine or, take back your conscience. If you can sell that so cheaply, Rabbit wonders what else you have on the shelf?
and how much?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 6, 2005 at 9:18 AM Natalie? Ramjet? That’s a long break guys. Surely you have conferred with the Pentagon Lawyers by now. Surely you are ready to put your lives on the line for those soldiers you were so worried we might put in danger with our words. Or maybe you were not so sure after all?
Maybe you were both prepared to con others into sticking their hand into the fire but no way would you take a chance with your own precious lives.
Why is it after you have argued every fact, source and brought up every form of smoke and mirrors an admittedly poverty stricken agency can muster, why is it that at the sight of one, irrevocable FACT. You turn and scuttle away rather than face it and give an opinion.
Strange considering you came on this thread so sure that your opinions were valuable and sacred.
Government Shills!
Rabbit reminds all humans that opinions should never be much different from others’ assuming all have same ideals. Opinions could never be worth dying for unless they are based on fact. Fact will always combat opinions if there is a conflict. An argument based on opinion without any agreed upon facts is unwinnable.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 7, 2005 at 12:21 AM Rabbit,
You neglected to answer my very specific question which was: Has the U.S. broken international law by using DU weapons? When I asked the question, it didn’t make much sense to me that it would have, but I honestly didn’t know for sure. Now my initial suspicions are confirmed even by an anti-DU source:
Depleted Uranium - Status in international humanitarian law:
“No international treaty currently bans the production or use of DU weapons. Indeed, DU weapons are not chemical or biological weapons, therefore they cannot be considered to be illegal under the 1972 Biological Weapons Convention and the 1996 Chemical Weapons Convention. They are not nuclear weapons either and thus cannot be banned under the 1970 Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. However….....”
(we think it should be because a bunch of biased flawed studies and politically motivated leftists say so)
” .........Although DU weapons are not illegal, their use goes against basic principles of international humanitarian law as (1) they have the POTENTIAL to contaminate groundwater reserves and pollute the air (2) they have the POTENTIAL to cause cancer and have other long- term negative health effects on combatants and civilians. Moreover, the use of anti-tank DU weapons and bunker buster DU-tipped bombs on above ground civilian targets in the centre of Baghdad during the war increased urban populations’ exposure to DU, which can only exacerbate the POTENTIAL negative effects of DU on civilians. This is why MANY PEOPLE BELIEVE that DU should be made illegal under international customary law.”
http://www.idust.net/Tutorial/DBish003.htm
So what we have here is a bunch of people BELIEVING du SHOULD be illegal, and IMHO basing their belief on a lot of false notions and flawed studies. Well, a lot of people believe a lot of things should be illegal or legal, but that doesn’t make them so. To say that the U.S. is guilty of war crimes for using DU is a little like saying the state of Texas is guilty of murder for executing death row inmates.
It sounds good to some, but it would be laughed out of court. There can be no war crime if using DU is not illegal. The state of Texas can’t be found guilty of murder because it is not illegal to execute convicted murderers in Texas.
But the problem anti-DUers are having is proving that DU is sufficiently dangerous to warrant classification along the likes of chemical, biological and actual nuclear weapons. There are too many studies by too many real honest-to-goodness scientists that say otherwise.
The problem anti-DUers have is that their websites look like this:
http://www.mindfully.org/Nucs/2004/DU-Secret-Nuclear-War14sep04.htm
and this:
http://www.barremore.net/depleted-uranium-kills.html
While I guess what you could call pro-DU literature look like this:
http://www.sandia.gov/news-center/news-releases/2005/def-nonprolif-sec/snl-du usand.pdf
and this:
http://www.gulflink.osd.mil/library/randrep/du/mr1018.7.chap2.html
(warning….long and boring)
There is a reason for the difference. The reason is that one side relies largely on emotion and scare-mongering to advance their POV, and the other side relies solely on facts, data, and the conclusions that follow. Heck, even the links you guys provide destroy your own case.
Don’t try to infer anything by frequency of posting. I’m glad you are in a position to have apparently so much time to debate on “In These Times”. Sadly, I do not.
P.S. I’ve been enjoying the exchange on the New Orleans thread between you and my other two alter-egos….scorp and Thinky….. when I have the time, that is. ;-)
Posted by Natalie on Sep 7, 2005 at 7:19 AM Corrections to above URLs that ended up with spaces or some such error.
Mindfully:
http://tinyurl.com/88w6gSandia:
http://tinyurl.com/85arkGulflink:
http://tinyurl.com/c8954
Posted by Natalie on Sep 7, 2005 at 7:41 AM No Natalie, you are full of it. The answer to the question is yes. How simple was that, didn’t know you hadn’t got it yet that’s all.
Rabbit does indeed believe the US is breaking international law. Notice, no capitals, that is because as Rabbit fully understands.
There is no International Law by Rabbit’s understanding, he not a lawyer either. What happens is you will be arrested and tried according to various things which have been dealt with adequately by the WIKIPEDIA entry, no matter how much you think you can twist the language to avoid actually telling the truth.
You are not likeable, you are are cowardly female dog. Rabbit doesn’t even care whether you believe you can and probably will be brought before some world court someday. Careful pushing the issue too much my dear or you may attract someone who is a lawyer, to fully set the record straight, on how it can happen. Would you like that, Rabbit can soon find some professional input on this. Actually Natalie most people, including Rabbit probably expect you have been conferring with a lawyer on this all this time, there is such a transparency to you. This is probably why you are still ducking, and yet you must be so determined to fulfil “the mission” that you are sailing closer to the wind, putting yourself in more danger than is normally your want.
Rabbit does not care what you believe about International Bans on Depleted Uranium. If you really believe the line you have never once stopped pushing, then put your foul, inhumane carcass on the line, on the basis of thesmall chance you are wrong. Come on you blasted toadie, you have nothing, no credibility, not a single established fact which begins to negate any important fact raised by anyone on this thread. Now is your chance to win it all back, with a single throw of the dice.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 7, 2005 at 9:49 AM You, Nuclear Natalie, have accused compasionate and decent people of putting ‘your’, troops at risk by defending their right to be at least screened for what most sane people now believe is wrong with more than 250, 000 of them. Australia did it to our troops in the Gulf War. Ours are sick too and being screwed over by the military. But the issue was brought out, our military has withdrawn from using them. They are no longer on the table for us, we are not perfect but nobody can call my country for war crimes beyond supporting Bush so far.
So Nuclear Natalie. Just tell us your name. You have already with your disgusting cheerleading dance of death admitted your role in the perpetration of what we can agree to disagree on for now, is a war crime, under international treaties and various National laws.
Put your carcass on the line instead of somebody elses, you can’t, you won’t, because you are a false, lying harbinger of death. You are a monster, and Rabbit knows he is talking into the mouth of the monster, the real monster behind you. We see you. See the Rabbit and know you are beaten. Come out into the light, I won’t come into the shadows to fight you. It is the light which is your worst enemy. Rabbit knows whjat Vampires hate most.
Nuclear Natalie the Vampire cheerleader of death. Put up, or shut up.
I, Captain Natalie ........ agree I have seen the Rabbit’s words and believe in my cause yet.
That should be enough, all we need is your name. Rabbit has as yet made no effort to trace you but might just check a hunch if you give him no choice.
Rabbit doesn’t take any more notice of your links, they are more smoke and mirros, so please stop pretending you are debating. You lost the debate, the first time two or three pages ago. Just give us your name, you’ve already proven you’ve seen the truth, you don’t have to believe it, since when was that a defence for breaking any law?
Come on Nuclear Natalie,
grow a spine,
or borrow mine,
but stand up and prove
that you was not lying.If you do, Rabbit will donate the first dollar for your defence if it should turn out you were wrong. If you are right Natalie, imagine how overjoyed all those troops will be when they find out you stood up so bravely for their rights to use DU weaponry.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 7, 2005 at 9:50 AM “The international outcry over claims that the use of depleted uranium during the Kosovo intervention caused leukemia in 24 European members of the peacekeeping force is unfounded. Numerous studies of depleted uranium—the byproduct of the process of extracting fuel for nuclear reactors and weapons from uranium—have not found any link between its use by the military and any form of cancer or other health problems. The controversy that erupted after the soldiers were found to have leukemia is threatening to undermine the alliance structure in Europe. It is imperative that the facts about depleted uranium are not lost in the debate.”
“FACT: The health risks posed by the military’s use of depleted uranium are extremely low.”
http://www.heritage.org/Research/NationalSecurity/EM721.cfm
Posted by Natalie on Sep 8, 2005 at 4:52 PM WAR CRIME _ FACT
Put up your own life on the basis of your FACTS, cowardly Nuclear Natalie. Stop risking the troops lives and nudreds oif thousands of others’
Your “game” has long since been exposed, note Rabbit has been vindicated and Re-instated and you gave Rabbit all he needed when the only other posts pulled were the Unnatural Disaster thread, where you and your beloved nuclear waste were in danger of being maligned.
Didn’t that little stunt backfire Beastmen.
Natalie if you can’t amass more than you have in credibility for your cause, with all that apparatus behind you, if you have been so totally trounced and your only response is to keep digging deeper, why should all those people have their lives put at risk on the basis of your words.
Your words are lies, you know them to be or you or Roger would have been prepared to put your name down as a supporter of the use of Depleted Uranium. You took quite some time to return after this became impossible to maintain. If your lawyers had told you it was safe to put your name to this, you would have done. Nuclear Natalie you would and probably do anything for your masters. Maybe that gives you a sense of worth. Like everything else about you then, that is also an illusion.
If none of the CHEERLEADERS of DEATH want to be known ib light of potential legal action from those world courts you are so contemptuous of, where is your money, GUTLESS SHILLS.
Rabbit posted your epitaph last night but it got eaten, too bad, you would not have dared to have shown you had even read that much by posting again. Perhaps we’ll save it, Captain Nuclear Natalie.
How much credibility will your full exposure at this point give your cause Natalie?
Answer Eadora’s and Rabbit only questions, stop proselytising to your betters, human beings, and Rabbits.
Gutless cow!
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 9, 2005 at 2:49 AM Quote m_astera:
“Since 9/11, the “terrorist threat” that has been waved at us to induce fear has been that the “terrorists” would explode a “dirty bomb” in one of our major cities, a dirty bomb consisting of conventional explosives laced with radioactive material, e.g. DU. So, we are being threatened with exactly what our government and military are doing to the Iraqis and Afghanis.”
——————
I remember this from the mainstream news…interesting. It’s like trying to scare a child with the “Boogey Man” and then try to convince the same kid that he’s really an OK guy. The pro DU rhetoric on this blog sounds even to this non-scientist more than a little contradictory.
Why not cut and paste this actual article (photo and all) and email it to the people in your address book? You know the ones. They’re soft-hearted and sweet and they’re the ones always forwarding the poignant stories, jokes, etc. to everyone in their huge address book. Ask them to help get the word out to the general public. The media isn’t doing it (for whaever reason) and I’m sure not a huge number of them are bloggers so they probably aren’t aware of this hazard.
Write: “Protect our soldiers and the future offspring of our soldiers. If you agree, forward to at least 10 people.” Then watch how fast bad new travels. I think people are more receptive to this kind of info right now anyway, so why not?
Posted by shaz on Sep 9, 2005 at 5:04 AM Good point, shaz. I’ve advocated for the same. If there is indeed a substantial and overriding danger from the use of DU, I want to know about it. I sincerely want the topic to make it out into the glaring media spotlight.
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From what I’ve read though, I sincerely at this point think that the danger from DU is being deliberately exaggerated and overblown for propaganda purposes. But hey, I use to think that energy from the sun caused the Earth to warm up. I know now that was crazy talk.
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“A World Health Organization medical team visited Basra and proposed a study to see why so many people in the city were so sick. But Saddam Hussein refused.”
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“Unless that study is done, it is going to be very difficult to try to understand what is behind the large number of people being ill,” Kilpatrick said. No tank battles occurred in Basra or other population centers during the Gulf War, DU is too heavy to have blown into Basra from nearby areas, he added.”
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“A half-dozen major studies, done by government and non-government agencies in the United States and Europe, have failed to find health problems associated with DU.”
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“Taking into account the pathways and realistic scenarios of human exposure, radiological exposure to depleted uranium could not cause a detectable effect on human health,” a European Union study concluded in 2001.”
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“A 2001 WHO study found that DU’s hazards are “likely to be very small.” A RAND Corporation study in 1999 and another 2001 project funded by the European Parliament concurred.”
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“The Defense Department is monitoring about 90 Gulf War veterans who were exposed to high levels of DU. Most have DU fragments in their bodies as a result of friendly fire incidents.”
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“No ill effects have been found so far.”
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http://www.post-gazette.com/World/20030326depleted0326p7.asp
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Spaces in urls may have to be closed due to an apparent error in this message board. Also, paragraphs are no longer allowed to be separated by spaces so everything ends up being one big unreadable block.
Posted by Natalie on Sep 9, 2005 at 5:30 AM Hi Shaz,
You got it in one. Did you read the whole of this admittedly long thread, see the Pentagon in it’s full, outed, glory?
This thread is actually representing the thin edge of the wedge thinks Rabbit. Why are they so desperate, notice the times taken between recent responses, compared to when they think they on a roll. They are in Check but are damned if they will call Mate. Why not wonders Rabbit?
Rabbit believes the whole thread should be seen as a breach of the weakest column of this most foul temple of theirs.
Something which they think is so important, probably is, you know?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 9, 2005 at 6:02 AM When you do Shaz, you might let Nuclear Natalie, who obviously assumes you have not read anything before now, (she’s a bit simple mate, doesn’t realise yet this isn’t like normal conversation, it’s all recorded).
Natalie, is a sweet innocent all American Girl, who is concerned for her countrymen and just wants to know the truth about this pesky DU issue she’s been hearing about.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 9, 2005 at 7:10 AM Natalie, if you wish to discuss other issues you mention, (electric universe, my aren’t we well informed), Rabbit would be interested. You fascinate Rabbit, and as he’s said likes you in a straange morbid sort of way. Rabbit has his dark desires too, though they do not involve killing or maiming anybody, in that we are different.
Not here though, where it is the Rabbit’s unfortunate duty to have to put you to the sword. You are a fascinating female, and Rabbit is sorry to have been somewhat course in his language when indeed you deserved a more elevated form of insult. It took Rabbit a while to realise that it was just the military mind imposing on your more worthy feminine qualities, which made you seem male.
Natalie you and your friends are about to be put to the test, somebody is going to read this long thread in which you have tried to bury the truth, and they are going to call you out.
The truth is in there, Rabbit doubts there is much more to be said on this issue than is contained within this thread.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 9, 2005 at 7:28 AM Nuclear Natalie, This is the sword, darling. If you would do Rabbit the courtesy of stepping up like a lady and taking taking it like a big girl, Rabbit will greet you with a wriggling nose, ears twitching in excitement and anticipation, as Rabbits are want to do, when they say something interesting or shiny maybe.
But step up you must, for you have fought like a trooper and are to be commended for it. But alas sweet girl, for sweet you are, much prettier than old Rabbit, alas as Rabbit promised, it is his solemn duty, as RABBIT to have to do this.
It cannot be said by anybody that Rabbit has not given you ample opportunity to make a case for the opinion you have never truly been prepared to articulate, not once, despite ample proddings and much patience and gentle rebuff from Rabbit, have not yet said what you mean.
“I Nuclear Natalie think it is a good idea that we use depleted uranium weapons and if there is a debate about the safety or anything that’s OK too, we can go ahead and do both at the same time can’t we?”
NO NATALIE RABBIT DOES NOT THINK THAT IS A VERY GOOD IDEA.
Rabbit does not feel his message could be misunderstood at this point about anything or everything.
Rabbit will say no more on this.
We have seen a LT COLONEL ROGER HELBIG outed early on for his role in the US Military DEPLETED URANIUM propaganda machine.
We have had brief visits from a couple of others as closely related to you and Ramjet as likely.
If your intention is to decieve Natalie then you have and will always have one ongoing problem. The Internet is an enormous resource and as much as that is a fantastic boon to knowledge, so too can it be a dreadful enemy.
The art of war does not need to be defined by Rabbit, who as an ARIES and a damned strong one is a warrior Rabbit make no mistake. Rabbit is a Pyrotechnic Rabbit, but thinks best to get the Party over and have fireworks for nice display on a better day, if we can.
MORE..
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 9, 2005 at 11:14 AM Like you, Natalie, Rabbit has some very simple but absolute ideals. Like all ideals they exist only in our minds unless we make them a reality and learn how to defend them against all comers.
The only people who would attack your ideals is a person who felt you had attacked theirs. That is almost but not quite Bush speak.
Your Paradigm may shift a little Natalie, if you consider this. The above statement is absolutely true, especially if we know what our ideals are. The words have always said things like “What I would die for”, or"what I would kill for”.
Yes that is an ideal, and that is exactlty why you are fighting innocent people and waging an endless war of ideals. Yes a WAR of ideals.
BULL, CRAP GARBAGE. This is why you are fighting, you are fighting for your ideals, as they are intrepreted to you by your evil, yes, they are evil, when the mask slips and you see what we see, you will be horror struck by how grim and obscene a beast it is. That isn’t Bushler, it is the whole Rotten JUNTA and the apparatus that even now has backup plans in place to slide a Democrat who will beaccepted as a saviour after this fiasco and worse. But business as usual.
“A War of ideals” they are the Emperor’s words. How can anyone have a war of ideals, we all have the same.
IDEALS According to RABBIT: again…LOVE, FOOD, HEALTH, SHELTER, SECURITY, and a happy future for our children.
Rabbit will die for or Kill to protect any of the above in the absolutest sense. He would not do either for anything else.
Nor would you.Essential truths have been turned into slogans, and sound about as convincing.
But they are truths yet. You just have to define your ideals properly and then the whole thing makes a lot more sense.
Since it is easy to understand that nobody will ever stop fighting if you threaten any one of those ideals enough, so how can any war be truly won, until everybody feels their IDEALS are at least within reach again, with no more than the every day hardships of avoiding being eaten or finding enough to eat.
Rabbit lives a short life, not as long as you. He has no time to waste. He has exactly the same ideals as you and all Earth life. From the simple ameoba or funny snail, to the tiger or birds and snakes. we all hold the above ideals as the primary purpose for existence. If anyone tells us we will help ensure any of these ideals by threatening those of somebody else, the we know they must be lying, or mistaken. The only wquestion if somebody else attacks us is, “Why do these people feel we are a threat to their ideals?”
Rabbit knows this is all the answer needed to end the problems which you people have made and for which you have no solutions.
One simple question to be asked everytime your leaders, religious or political tell you you must risk your life or suffer in any way. WHY?
I already know my ideals, so give me proof that my ideals are under threat before I will risk losing everything, forever.
Rabbit knows that their are Muslims who have had their ideals hijacked by their leaders too, but that doesn’t mean that we can’t recognise this truth and put it to work.
Explain this simple rule to the Iraqi’s, as we leave, and either way they will not follow us back to our homes which they never asked for anyway.
This is not the end of the matter of Iraq, or Depleted Uranium Weapons. It can be the beggining of the solution if you will face the Rabbit’s words of advice with the humility which frankly it occurs to Rabbit you strange creatures aught. How sad it took a Rabbit to find the key.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 9, 2005 at 12:00 PM Natalie, That last bit was for the world my pet. It is time to put you out of your misery.
Rabbit has not until about a half hour ago done the following. He has played it by ear. Relied on Rabbit intuition and Rabbit magic only. He must admit he hasn’t gotten all details in place, exactly, but all things considering Rabbit has not done too badly.
She can see the blade now, be swift, Rabbit, she suffers. Finally acting on that Hunch Rabbit mentioned a while back, about two hours ago now. Rabbit put Natalie Helbig into the Google and Ping. What magic is the Internet.
What is better, try putting either of those names and Depleted Uranium into Google. Or just a few loose terms thrown about many times in this thread, which might concievably relate to the subject at hand, see what the top entries are.
Is this enough? No she is still gagging, Rabbit thinks she is still conscious, so again he must strike. Natalie, when you are ready by all means fill in the details and save Rabbit’s time. How exactly are you related, to Lt Colonel Roger Helbig?
Natalie Helbig, how recent is the picture?
Like Rabbit said, you are prettier than Rabbit.
Be gracious now, you know that is Checkmate, children.
Rabbit loves you all. He loves his ideals more than any of your goofy religions or politics.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 9, 2005 at 12:00 PM Natalie, Rabbit has gazed long into your eyes, his own as insrutable as ever, but into yours a magic rabbit can peer deep and see much.
Considering What Rabbit can see from no more than a few, deliberately decietful words on your part, how much more do you think the Rabbit see’s now that he has gazed upon your likeness. No way can Rabbit see a wizened up old Vampire like Roger owning such a youthful bride. No Rabbit actually expected the Roger had not mated and speculated upon this very fact and there all along was the reason for that strange intuition which is so easy to recognise, yet often not so easy in interpretation.
There you were all along Rabbit had the proof right in front of his wriggly little nose. Roger Helbig could in fact produce such a child a your tragic self.
You and Rabbit knows what Rabbit means.
You are still shaken and shocked from your first meeting with Rabbit. We had fun you and Rabbit. We danced the sweet dance of two souls who hated yet longed for each other with all our hearts. Yet as is so strangely constant with all the best things we were opposites. Longed each for his or her selfish ends.
Rabbit longs for your soul. He has taken you as you have offered yourself to Rabbit. He has used you as you have tried to use others, yet more gently. He has given fair warnings of his intentions, has offered you a Fig Branch but you have made him beat you with it instead.
Rabbit has been sweet in between having to bite you for your own good. Yet you have persisted to Challenge Rabbit. Whatever soulsource rules your destiny it is immaterial. Rabbit is not Tiger or Dragon, but nor are you. Don’t know who’s you are at this point but looks like Pig’s, (PIG is nice).
If you will persist in challenging Rabbit we may have to explore deeper matters you and Rabbit. It may not be comfortable for you, but you feel like a strong girl. Having Roger Ramjet for a Dad would give a Girl a bit of Back-bone.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 9, 2005 at 3:17 PM Natalie,
Do you even know anyone that has Gulf War Syndrome? If you did, maybe you’d have some empathy. I met someone whose husband had it. The symptoms are many. I guess I’m not too surprised to find that DU is probably at the bottom of this, in fact the symptoms are starting to make sense. Plus, it’s invisible. No wonder soldiers couldn’t figure what they were exposed to! And now we hear there’s been an elevated number of birth defects…I think we all of us know what causes that!
Posted by shaz on Sep 9, 2005 at 3:58 PM GhostRabbit,
I was wondering what the feasiblity would be of making little landmines out of depleted uranium.That way not only could we pollute the countryside of nations we invade,but we could also cause some radioactive maiming.I mean,if we’re going to inflame these people with our irresponsiblity,let’s go for broke.What say you,Natalie?I bet you’d say yes if Darth Cheney proposed it.Bush would have proposed it,but he’s busy debating the theory of whether or not the earth is flat.
“looks flat in all them pitchers!”
Posted by wwoods on Sep 9, 2005 at 6:55 PM The function of depleted uranium munitions is to kill tanks, not pollute the countryside. Read the extensive Sandia report based on actual experimentation to determine the extent of the DU contaminated zone around an armored vehicle which has been hit with a DU armor penetrator.
http://www.sandia.gov/news-center/news-releases/2005/def-nonprolif-sec/snl-du usand.pdf : “An Analysis of Uranium Dispersal and Health Effects Using a Gulf War Case Study”
Posted by Ramjet on Sep 9, 2005 at 7:50 PM Wwoods, don’t hurt Rabbits feelings reminding him of his banned status, and thus need to rely on this silly handle. Ghost indeed. See what the Rabbit Ghost did with Dragon and Vampire on this thread.
Perhaps prayer will bring the Rabbit back to flesh and blood Rabbit of Oz.
If it’s good enough for the Katrina victims, well heh, Rabbit was never one to push in lines, he’ll wait his turn.
Wwoods Rabbit believes you are onto something with that DU mine thingy. He knows a few people who might be very interested, and they may yet make an appearance to give us their personal viewpoint. Natalie is still a bit scratched and sore, Rabbit can ride em a bit rough, but she did keep coming back for more. She underestimated Rabbit, most do. Have a look under the funny little tail, he’s go a pretty puny toggle, but he’s got an excellent pair of well presented knackers.
Rabbit loves Natalie and Rabbit thinks Natalie loves Rabbit.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 9, 2005 at 8:10 PM Hooray Daddy is back. What have you got in the sack for the kids today Dad?
““Daddy has brought you some nice Depleted Uranium with cheese on top.”“
Roger, do you think your presence here is well advised?
From what pinnacle of credibility, after six pages of a worse defeat for your DU cause tha the current US rout in Iraq, from what height do you dare address your betters, Rabbits and others for example.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 9, 2005 at 8:14 PM Roger you would not at this stage concieve of the kindness fate has bestowed upon you. My computer, has eaten a retort to you old boy which took all of twenty minutes to tap out with my wee paws. It was a Masterpiece, in an otherwise fairly drab artistic career.
Nothing Rabbit ever does again will come close and henceforth Rabbit shall only aspire for another glimpse. Such is life, the best laid plans of Snails and Rabbits as they say.
So you shall have to settle for some drab description of how it looked.
Depleted Uranium weapons, Dirty Bombs, Nuclear waste. Unless you count killing things better and killing and maiming everything as well as more of them for much longer and not just them their babies. Even down to all Baby Rabbits, my own offspring, the only real time capsule of any species which can cross the millions and even billions of years of each species is DNA. It is there you will find your origins.
It has taken our planet’s life force several million years to reach you lot of genetically enhanced apes once again. For you to have progressed to the point of your own ruination yet again to maybe pick up since the last time, around in your quest for dominance of everything. You are in control of nothing. You are but tinkerers in the greater plans of races far beyond you. Some beyond also they like layers of the onion. Some so far from you they would engulf your small concept of god.Human God, they all think they belong to one God group or the other.
All human gods look the same to Rabbit.
Just bigger humans, who live a lot bloddy longer. For some strange reason even though Rabbit never SAW A GOD move yet, they have caused more and bloodier wars than even money and loot. They still do. That is why Rabbit does not think much of God people.
Rabbit does not mind the gods, they stand there like big humans who don’t make as much noise or smell as odd. They live quietly sometimes right where Rabbits are among their most common visitors. Rabbit’s mostly like the Gods. It’s the People and what they seem to think this otherwise bevenolent or at least indifferent being wants of them that is the problem.Humans, who else, got this blind and stupid and cowardly and mostly, all of it just because they had forgotten how to define their own ideals and thus to choose an intelligent path when confronted by a reality, like the fox, or the Bomb, or Hurricanes. You talk about lemmings. HUH.
Guess what, lemmings at least keep their occasional weirdness down to self appointed groups of nuts who want to try swimming all the way out to god, because they believe that is where he is hiding from them, after he goes down into the sea at night.
Unlike humans they can’t get the rest of the species to follow them up to heaven, to ask god if he had any answers to all the BIG problems of life.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 9, 2005 at 9:27 PM Roger before you stoop to another of your long, smoke and mirror rants, just to ruin a lovely finale the Rabbit shall let you in on a little secret.
Many people have been sendind Rabbit e-mails and Rabbit has been vindciated in all his posts to you , and everywhere you and Natalie manged to handily Tip Rabbit off about who was who. If you missed it this was pages ago
None of these people has been posting, for which you should be grateful, in some ways.
If you do not understand the significance of much of what has gone on before now, you have been several steps behind Rabbit, busy Shooting yourself, and blaming others when it was your Bull in a china shop attitude, tripping about us wee creratures here on the ground that was making all the fuss.
You set out by Basically shooting off your own leg, left one, as Rabbit recalls, when you first saw Rabbit from afar.
——Wierd thought Rabbit.,..^^.. but beyond mentioning it to you at the time Rabbit let it be, you were a strange Bird from the start and Rabbit wondered what, this looks more like Eels. He said as much and that is when you shot that limb off which rabbit would not have mentioned again were it not for the fact that you immediately began to blame Rabbit for your missing Leg. Rabbit’s swears that You Lt Colonel Roger Helbig, blew your own leg off.Many other crippling injuries suffered by your cause in it’s various guises were at your own hand yet you persist in demonstrating the same military genius and strategy, coupled with flexibility and intelligence which has made America what it is TODAY.
Everybody saying the same things of you and whereas it has been your downfall, as with Natalie, you can use your own words to further hoist yourself on your own Petard.
Another man pointed out the possibility you were an Eel which had already occurred to Rabbit and since then as now you never read more than one fifth of what you reply to so when the next thing you saw was Rabbit Looking for an Eel you became so startled you loosed off your best shot and took out your best leg to boot.
In so doing you not only proved yourself to be an Eel, but a very big and desperate one.
Thinks Rabbit, what does Eel value so highly it guards with such fierce abandon. What are you up to Eel, thinks Rabbit, who knows a bit about Eels.
So out comes the collection of old and somehow magical, battered Rabbit collection of rods and reels, and bells and hooks and bait, for Eels. Along the way he casually used a couple of loose Dittoeheads ewho were just lying about this lovely site. He did not hurt them and is working at letting them back out into the wild as soon as they are well.
Well, better anyway.Up comes the Eels, one two three. “Juicy big eel”, “sweet little dodgy eel” and “shy reluctant eel”. All in the same bucket.
How cool is that says the Rabbit, and does a little Dance.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 9, 2005 at 10:07 PM Now for an encore Roger, after having aquainted yourself with the possibilities inherant in Rabbits next and hopefully final words to you, please finish the following si=ong for Rabbit, he just can’t remeber the words, and as id Rabbit’s want he may spend twenty, minutes, an hour, maybe a day, who knows and if nothing else he will have to make up some words to finish,.. unless you can refresh Rabbbit’s memory and tell us the words to your theme song, Roger Ramjet.
How does it go, “Roger Ramjet and his eagles fighting for your freedoms…...”
How does it go Colonel, sing please for Rabbit and all the nice people. it is the least you could do for us while we wait to die in the world you dirtbag are trying to create.
What’s the problem you old bas*ard has your life been such a dispointement to you that you resent anybody else having a turn.
The simple fact is there is only so much earth to go around. We can’t all be here at once, so we accept the symmetry of the cycle of life for what it is, affirmation that we came from somewhere and are to all intents and purposes going back to the same place. Why then does it matter how we our lives while we are ‘downhere’?
It matters for all those who are still down here and to their children too.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 9, 2005 at 10:08 PM Not every other creature on this planet has the same desire to shortcircuit the process to meeting gos by swimming out to sea nd burning the island behind them.
So if you all want to go having an Armageddon or Whatever you think those big peaceful slabs of stone are telling you to do, how about you all just jump into the bloody Ocean, swim out to Sea, follow that last lot of lemmings. they swore they saw God calling them out to the this time and they are off.
———PLEASE…^^... PEOPLE IF YOU ARE GOING TO DO THIS, DON’T TORCH THE ISLAND. SOME OF US HEATHENS, RABBITS AND OTHERS WOULD LIKE TO STAY BEHIND IF YOU DON’T MIND. WE’LL TAKE A CHANCE, YOUR GODS WON’T BE VERY HAPPY WITH US.—Rabbit, expects they will probably be staying back here too, in which case the Rabbits, Babies and his friends babies, will be here to keep your gods company over the long millenia until you lot are round to pay us a visit again.
—-Sincereley Rabbit
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 9, 2005 at 10:17 PM Rabbit, I have to congratulate you on finally tracking me down. But please don’t tell Roger. You see, we were married about fifteen years ago in a ceremony so secret that even Roger wasn’t invited.
I treasure the perpetual newness of our relationship, and I know that actually meeting him (and he may insist on it if he knew) would put that most wonderful of feelings in danger of dissipating.
Posted by Natalie on Sep 11, 2005 at 7:30 AM Finally isn’t the word really Nat. Rabbit indicated that he detected something military about you and never expected more than he revealed at the time. Finally he simply on a whim popped your name and Roger’s into google and posted an hour later after he had stopped giggling and had a cup of tea. Rabbit was pleased to see his instincts and intuition were in good working order.
Rabbit is just warming up in this regard, thrives on challenge does Rabbit.
Now be nice and don’t mess up Rabbit’s nice finale, and we shall dance again my sweet, but not here.You have lost this round fair and square.
Rabbit has been remarkably kind and never done more than beat you with the flat edge of the sword, twas always sharp enough to sever thy head from thy dainty trunk, mythologically speaking.
Instead Rabbit has let you trip over the silly clothing you brought with you for such a perilous and uncertain journey. Secure in the knowledge that the best learn quickly. so stand up fair maid and let us dance away until tomorrow. Come show Rabbit you are more than just a dark heart and a pretty face.
Of Ramjet we shall speak no more, unless Rabbit feels inclined to complete that little ditty as promised, which would be a delight no doubt for those many souls who are helping make this such a high hit on google searching DU. Now would not that be a shame.Would it not be better to be known as the vampire princess, who renownced her evil ways after being rescued by a brave Rabbit, who slew the Dragon which kept you under lock and Key. Rabbit does not even intend to keep you, you may go free sweet child. He would have a harem if he kept all the sweet maids he rescued. Rescuing Maids is really not Rabbit’s work, mostly just Hunting and doing whatever is required to be done with Dragons, and other assorted monsters.
—————-Surely you have heard of Rabbit?..........^^...........
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 11, 2005 at 9:48 AM Rabbitvoz was removed from this website for inappropriate comments on this and at least one other article, but has reincarnated himself as the equally pestilent Ghost Rabbit ..who also should be banned if only for boring the rest of us to death. Anyway, no matter how much he blathers on, he no longer is deemed relevant and this is my final mention of him no matter how much Googling he does. Bye!
Posted by Ramjet on Sep 11, 2005 at 10:59 AM Ramjet has been proven to be a liar who never even reads anything he replies to or he would kwow that Rabbit was re-instated in all his posts because not even Ramjets Lying complaints stood the test.
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
You childish little twat of a colonel, you just want the last word , what’s the point since you lack any profile.
..........
If Rabbit ever finds you crawling around the spreading your filth again he will kick your cowardly backside back into the pit of slime you inhabvit with even more pleasure.
.....................
Rabbit specifically requested that your comments be kept up and that he was ambivelant abouyt his earlier remarks as Rabbitvoz anyway. But that yours told an even more important story. Without you LtC Roger Helbig, this thread would not be fraction as important to the anti-DU “crowd” you so abhore.
.................
Dirtbag!...........^^...............
...............
Roger Ramjet and his Eagles Fighting for our Freedoms…..
.............What’s the rest of your theme song COLONEL DEATH?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 11, 2005 at 11:32 AM One last reminder for those who have been foolish enough to waste much time reading Ramjet’s fervent and false bleating, yet missed the essential point that he is a piece of garbage.
Rabbit quotes:
..April 11, 2005—(Oklahoma City) “Individuals on web sites throughout the United States have complained over a period of months about the abusive and aggressive actions of an Air Force Lieut. Colonel named Roger Helbig,” stated Project Censored Award Winning writer Bob Nichols.
“Col. Helbig has consistently misrepresented himself and his participation, voluntarily or on a paid basis, as a “minder” or enforcer for the DOD lie about Uranium Munitions in direct contravention of US Army Regulations and Orders,” Nichols stated.
“Col. Helbig apparently is fervently following the Secret Los Alamos Memo about Uranium Weapons (UW), aka so-called “Depleted Uranium,” instructing personnel to lie about Uranium Weapons to maintain the political viability of continued use of the Genocidal Weapons: “weaponized radioactive and poisonous ceramic uranium oxide gas and dust” in Iraq and throughout Central Asia,” added Nichols.
Nichols stated “Dr. Doug Rokke, Ph.D., is the former Army Officer in charge of the Pentagon’s Depleted Uranium Project. Dr Rokke is a career officer, loyal to the Constitution of the United States of America, not to any political party. He is the man the people of the United States can turn to for “on the level information” about the true nature of Uranium Weapons (UW.)
Dr. Rokke commented, “LTC Roger Helbig, United States Air Force: I would suggest that since you claim to be so knowledgeable about DU and my specific activities during Gulf War 1 and while I was the Director of the U.S. Army Depleted Uranium that you produce the actual official documents, not some comments by Bob Cherry or Ed Battle or Mike Kilpatrick, your bosses up the line, verifying your comments.”
Rokke added “Unless you can do so, please cease and go away. But before you go away you still have not answered; why you, as an United States Air Force officer, refuse to support my / our actions to ensure that United States Department of Defense officials provide medical care to all DU casualties and clean up all environmental contamination as required by AR 700-48 and TB 9-1300-278; and, that medical care is provided to all DU casualties as required by Lt General Ron Peake’s April 29, 2004 order.”
“Will you provide us a public endorsement supporting full compliance of these mandatory actions?”
“Yes” or “No”?
.ROGER RAMJET .....RABBIT is more man than your entire bloodline combined could produce.
—-Not that this is saying much, so are both my sons, at 9 and 14.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 11, 2005 at 11:40 AM What gets me is that using depleted uranium is a war crime. Plain and simple. The first Gulf War in Iraq, Kosovo, Afghanistan, and Iraq again have all been depleted uranium wars.
Where is the outrage on the international level? Has there been any action beyond feeble protests from any other governments?
It seems that people could care less unless it is happening in their own back yard. The thing they have to realise is that this stuff doesn’t go away and the whole planet suffers for it.
Posted by David in Canada on Sep 16, 2005 at 5:08 PM David,
It is nice that you can repeat the anti-DU activist mantra, but unfortunately, the use of DU is NOT a WAR CRIME and that is the fact. I confirmed that fact with the International Court in the Hague when Moret was bragging about her testimony before the kangaroo court in Japan about Afghanistan. I found that the Hague did not recognize that court, nor the kangaroo court subsequently held in Turkey about Iraq. If anyone wants to read about war crimes, go to your local library; most of them have the multi-volume proceedings from World War II. Read just a bit of one of those volumes and learn what a War Crime really is.
Posted by Ramjet on Sep 16, 2005 at 10:31 PM I found this information on the definition of a war crime.
“Defined by the Nuremberg and Tokyo military tribunals and by the United Nations, war crimes include the following: murder, ill treatment or deportation to slave labor of civilians in an occupied territory; murder or ill treatment of prisoners of war; taking and killing hostages; plunder of public or private property; wanton destruction of towns or villages, and devastation not justified by military necessity. Grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions are also considered war crimes.”
“wanton destruction of towns or villages, and devastation not justified by military necessity.” ... seems to cover it.
Posted by David in Canada on Sep 16, 2005 at 11:29 PM And I found this information too. I realise that this is a technical legal matter but come on. The American government is worried about dirty bombs so much they have held Jose Padilla without trial for over 3 years. Yet the American and British governments use similar weapons in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc.
” There are two ways to determine if the use of a particular weapon in military operations is illegal. The easiest way is if the weapon is used in violation of a treaty that forbids its use and the State using it is a party to that treaty. If there is no treaty on a specific weapon, then one must determine if the use of that weapon would violate existing rules and principles of binding humanitarian (armed conflict) law. Under these rules (the “weapons test”) – derived from The Hague Conventions, the Geneva Conventions, and all other sources of military law – a weapon may be banned if:
(1) it has harmful effects outside the legal field of battle (the “geography” test);
(2) it has harmful effects after the war is over (the “time” test);
(3) its use is unduly inhuman or causes undue suffering (the “humaneness” test); or
(4) it has a harmful effect on the environment (the “environment” test). The first two tests arise from the requirement that weapons may not be indiscriminate. Because there is no specific weapon treaty forbidding the use of depleted uranium, the illegality of DU must be shown by the second method.Weaponry containing depleted uranium (DU) fails all four tests. ” quoted from http://www.nukewatch.com/du/20030930bthm.html
Posted by David in Canada on Sep 16, 2005 at 11:51 PM So Roger still lurking about, somebody told Rabbit you were still trying to spin the bull on unsuspecting customers.
You have been proven to be working together with Natalie, and an NCO to spin DU lies. We have shown that Natalie is also a HELBIG so she is also now on record. Obviously things got too hot for the Sargent Case (Just a guess) as soon as he was called and if he suddenly pops up here now after so long we’ll know why won’t we Colonel?
You should see some of the e-mails I am getting about you and I believe a friend of mine noticed you lurking somewhere else and called you on it. Gone like the wind, a troll who had been bothering people for ages.
Your games are coming undone.
Now Rabbit suggests you let it rest.
As you can see, nobody is buying.
Best go dig yourself a hole and hide in it. Give Rabbit’s regards to Natalie.
(Now what’s that company she’s working for? Pretty interesting stuff, and so useful to a government internet propaganda machine too.)Rabbit hasn’t posted the name here, but there is a link to it. People are looking into it by the way.
You all have a nice day now.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 17, 2005 at 8:42 AM Talking of organizing to spin lies, the anti-DU movement certainly has done enough of that .. ask Traprock Peace Center why they suddenly took down three pages from their website .. because someone found that they really aren’t what Doug Rokke claimed them to be. David posits that use of DU should be a war crime because David has no accurate scientific knowledge of what DU is or is not. I am backgrounding Sergeant Matthews; I have a FOIA pending with the State of NY Dept of Military and Naval Affairs; I am backgrounding Asaf Durakovic; I am backgrounding Doug Rokke; I defy Rabbit, David, etc. to submit their resumes to the discussion so that we can find out exactly who they are. All I thus far can tell is that they are loud mouthed rabble rousers who bully anyone who disagrees with them. They have no real facts, just the usual anti-DU mantras put out by the charlatans who lead the movement. I intend to expose each of these charlatans for what they are, fakes! So Rabbit, if you really are man and not a mouse, come out of the cold and tell the world exactly who you are and what your qualifications to expound on this list are all about. Somehow, I expect the mouse to stay in his hole and if he does, I shall continue to ignore him.
PS .. I have no formal connection with anyone; I correspond with a number of people on both sides of this issue. I seek out facts and I point out fallacies. Natalie is an individual with whom I have corresponded since we both began posting to this list. I never knew her before .. she is not me under another guise. I am sure enough of my facts to be me and not need to hide as someone else and I have put my e-mail address in a prior posting so if anyone wants to correspond, I will be glad to do so provided that they do not fill my in-box with spam or vitriol.
Posted by Ramjet on Sep 17, 2005 at 9:19 AM Ramjet Rabbit doesn’t even know Traprock Peace Centre. As has been covered adequately before now there is not two sides to an ongoing debate. The actual science may be being quantified as we speak, but the fact of the danger of this stuff has not been in doubt for sixty years Roger. the world opinion on it as a weapon of war is before you and is not discussble beyond admitting it is contained whithin the resolutions outlined above, among others.
Not for the first time Roger I shall repeat to you that all you ask of me has been answered and it is the most common thing people write to me about this thread. Roger keeps asking you to answer questions you already have.
Roger you are forgetting that Natalie is also Natalie Helbig and has admitted it as you admitted you are Roger Helbig.
You tell us you never knew her before and yet you own the same surname?
This is not as ludicrous as your shilling efforts but it ranks high brother.
You need to stop talking about spam, Rabbit is neither a spammer or supporteer of such.
Rabbit is merely part of an informal organisation of ‘suitably’ qualified individuals whose aim it is to counterbalance the extensive government “Internet Propaganda” which has become so prolific of late.
we are few in number and as diverse as human nature. We may lack the resources and numbers but we have two things you can never overcome, Lt Colonel Roger Helbig and all like you.
The truth and the light. You have been outed Colonel and as such are somewhat of a historical case but rest assured that you have started something rolling which is the opposite of what you had in mind.
Rabbit is sorry Roger, but there is no more pretence and games. You have been outed, admitted, you have been caught out in the most fundamental lies, and would try and pass yourselves off as others to decieve. It is no longer fishing to call you a Shill, you are adn it’s proven. Since the whole thread stands and is archived also, the fact is inescapable.
Every time you try to push the lie again here, you are merely bashing more nails into what is your coffin, pure and simple.
The second most common point people make about you is that you are either incredibly silly for a colonel (someone has explained the milieu from which you sprang and it makes sense) or else so absolutely desperate to keep a lid on this somehow that you cannot let it be, even though all reason and logic has collapsed around you.
Roger nobody would bash their head against such a solid wall as you are doing by choice, this is the only reason Rabbit still thinks you are paid. Natalie’s heart was not in it at the end. Is she a daughter or the missus? Just wondering. But she is called Natalie Helbig, Roger so just cut the spin, it does not even hop, let alone fly.
Roger before you post again, please for pit’s sake, read all Rabbit’s posts to you, you are blundering about in the dark so much it’s sad to watch. Do it for the sake of the Airforce pride, you are bringing them down with such a feeble display.
Trying to be kind Roger, but only because it’s a mood. Rabbit cannot accept you are anything but malevolent, sadly. Detected a similar cold-heartedness in Nat, is it Genetic or influence wonders Rabbit.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 17, 2005 at 9:59 AM What qualifications Roger? Can’t you guess, it is written all over, how do we see you so clearly? How do we unravel your games with such ease?
Don’t you guys have some pet psychics somewhere?
Rather an interesting tool combined with Internet, actually. How will you fight people who only shine a harmless light on you? Who preach only love and tolerance, and who can show everyone how to see through the masks you have spent so long in building.
It all comes down to illusion as your masters know, Roger even if you do not, and while an illusion of such magnitude as that they have spun can take lifetimes to assemble, it can collapse in an instant with the gentle gust of reason.
The best way to bring down this mess your lot have created was always to wait until you had achieved maximum instability, from the cosmic balance and then a few just give the whole thing a gentle push in the right direction at the right time.
With the DU issue it seems you have finally overreached and now as you reach for the impossible you will have to hang on until that tower hits ground.
Thankyou on behalf of all of us for sacrificing your credibility and pride and image, just so we could clearly see where the lever needed to be applied.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 17, 2005 at 10:12 AM This rabbit jerk is a mindless idiot, speaking of over-reaching. He is really way in over his head .. I suspect that he got as far as 6th grade science if he managed to get that far.
What I would like to know is LIST OWNER .. why did you allow Rabbit in any form once Rabbitvoz was kicked off for violating the terms of service.
Posted by Ramjet on Sep 17, 2005 at 10:40 AM Simple Roger, Rabbit has been re-instated in all his posts, as you have been repeatedly told. Your complaints and those of Natalie, which were made simulataneously were shown to be false.
Rabbit never did violate any terms of service.
Plus you have been shown to be a liar, without any overeaching by anyone except yourself.
Do you now wish to alter history? Forgetting are we that you and Natalie have beed outed?
She admitted the name Roger, you did too through being so dumb. What do you hope to achieve by lying more.No wonder you guys lose wars so badly, you never notice when you have lost.
What qualifications does it take to speak the truth Roger?
One thing that helps credibility is if one has no vested interests, like Rabbit and others who have helped skin you.
You are a PENTAGON Colonel as we know, directly connected to the military DU propaganda effort.
Yopu have any credibility after being shown to be using a team of people.
You still don’t hear Rabbit, we know Natalie is your family, her name is on the public record as is yours.
You would have been kicked off if your lies were not so important to show the truth about your lies.
Either you are the dumbest human ever to be promoted to colonel or you are being ordered back into this breach against all judgement.
You have nothing you never had anything and now you don’t even have any honour.
They must be scraping the bottom of the barrel for officers in your Military. Maybe you are safest for them out of the way playing internet agent?
Would anyone let this nut-job near live ammunition?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 17, 2005 at 12:13 PM Still think the funniest thing you do is keep on speculating about things Rabbit has long since answered for you. You neeed not guess anything about Rabbit, unlike you he has answered all your questions. You have never answered Rabbit’s except by accident as Rabbit has required you too. You even took the thousands of times bait which Rabbit dropped way back when to compare how you reacted when presented with a fact you know to be false.
You fell. That time you were short to the point and never waffled or repeated yourself or linked to anything.
It was way back then that Rabbit knew how to tell when you were knowingly lying.
You stupid little pissant military man, telling me I am out of my depth.
Foolish little boy.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 17, 2005 at 12:17 PM Nobody wants to play anymore do they?
———————-
Who just told you Rabbit is wiping the floor with you, not long since Roger? Natalie was it?
——————————Not concentrating so not sure, but let it be a warning Roger about who is out of their depth.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 17, 2005 at 2:26 PM David postulated that the use of Du ammunition is a war crime because of UN resolutions which even in the event the UN was disbanded, (Yes we expect anything of you scum), the resolutions will stand as a testimony to your having knowingly committed crimes aginst humanity.
No other detail is required to destroy your case.
You won’t believe this Roger but Rabbit has kept one last nasty surprise for you, and all you have to do is ask for it. Please do, just do, for Rabbit has an oath of charity which will be voided by your next post.
Come on Roger Helbig, you obviously won’t give up until you are worm turds. So come and get it, why should you be the only one to go down out of the scum who have pushed you to this, let’s take the whole DU crew down with you, do they fancy their chances against a Rabbit?
Why not. The most powerful Army in the world and all. One Rabbit says Up Yours!What can one Rabbit do against the greatest WAR CRIMINALS OF HISTORY? Come along big brave mass murderers, it’s one thing to kill people who don’t see it coming, face the Rabbit, he can see your filthy mishapen souls. He does not fear your lies for lies die in the light of truth.
Roger Ramjet and His Eagles
Fighting all our freedoms
Rather poison one and all
With not an ounce of reason.Roger Ramjet he’s our man
Killing is in season
Use this DU bomb my son
and its OK to breathe in.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 17, 2005 at 2:52 PM “I’m not an explosives or crash site expert, but I am highly knowledgeable in causes and effects related to nuclear radiation contamination. What happened at the Pentagon is highly suspicious, leading me to believe a missile with a depleted uranium warhead may have been used,” said radiation expert Leuren Moret in a telephone conversation this week from her Berkeley, CA home.
Moret, who has spent a life time working in the nuclear field, first as a staff scientist at the Livermore Nuclear Weapons Laboratory in California, is now a member of The Radiation and Public Health Project (RPHP), a privately funded group studying the devastating effects of depleted uranium especially in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Regarding the missile theory, it is also backed up by retired Army Maj. Doug Rokke, a PhD educational physics and former top military expert banished from the Pentagon after the military failed to follow regulations regarding the use, clean up and medical treatment regarding the use of depleted uranium.
“When you look at the whole thing, especially the crash site void of airplane parts, the size of the hole left in the building and the fact the projectile’s impact penetrated numerous concrete walls, it looks like the work of a missile,” said Maj. Rokke from his Rantoul, IL home this week. “And when you look at the damage, it was obviously a missile. Also, if you look at the WTC and the disturbing flash hitting the tower right before the impact of the airplane, it also looks like a missile was used.”
“Even if there was depleted uranium used, do you think the likes of Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld would really care? These are bottom feeders that 20 or 30 years ago wouldn’t have been even allowed to set foot in such high positions of power,” said Moret.
http://www.arcticbeacon.com/articles/article/1518131/31824.htm
Posted by Natalie on Sep 21, 2005 at 7:53 AM This Natalie post does not sound like Natalie ..
The entire thing is baloney ...Rokke and Moret at their best, spinning to attract the 9/11 Truth Movement conspiracy theorists.
Moret .. the only thing on Moret’s resume that checks out is that she was once President of the Association of Women Geoscientists. She also worked in some capacity, not as a staff scientist at Lawrence Livermore Laboratory. She also dropped out of the UC Davis Geology doctoral program. The Radiation and Public Health Project had this to say about her claim to be a “staff member”
RPHP has written six books, not ten.
Leuren is not a member of our board of directors, and is not a research associate, which constitutes the guts of RPHP. She, like many others, has presented information that we have compiled—which anyone can do, since all of our info. is public (except for Sr90 levels in individual baby teeth). Joe ManganoRokke, well, he is a piece of work .. each day, I get new information about his claims versus his actual accomplishments .. He does appear to be a member of the retired reserve, probably in the grade of Major .. reservists, however do not say that they are retired from the Army .. only active duty members of a service consider themselves to be retirees of the service itself. A reserve retirement is not quite the same .. you qualify for it after completing at least 20 good years .. a good year has 50 points, where points are earned at one for each day of active duty or for each 4 hour UTA period, points can also be earned for completing correspondence courses. That is a long way from completing 20 years in the actual Army. Rokke never served in the Pentagon and the Army does not consider him to have ever been their “DU expert”.
If anything this Greg Syzmanski piece should clearly establish that Rokke and Moret have no regard for truth or scientific inquiry whatsoever and just play to whatever audience they can find.
Posted by Ramjet on Sep 21, 2005 at 8:32 AM Natalie, darling, so good to see you, out of the coffin for a while are we, drink some blood before we go for another little nap?
The Penatgon story is very interesting actually, now why would you want to go off on a tangent?
If there is nothing shonky going on at the Pentagon “supposed plane crash” then why did the FBI confiscate all video footage and why all the contradictory evidence which has arisen ? This is not the thread my dear so don’t waste you time. If you think you can put dirt on anybody by trying to raise the fact that they support another questioning of some very questionable “theories” then you are barking up the wrong tree, woof woof.
You see sweety the government 9/11 lies are coming undone quicker than any morals you ever possessed, or don’t you follow the news?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 21, 2005 at 11:51 AM Now you pair of confirmed and proven SHILLS what nonsense are you trying to spin here now? Can you Turkeys not comprehend that we know who you are, who you work for and have even got the earlier posts here to prove it?
Perhaps people of your limited intellect Colonel could believe that your combined dance above would somehow give credibility where there is none, but you are simply not dealing with such puny, insecure people as you are used to working amongst. The Natalie post is your Natalie giving you a leg up from which to post another rambling attempt at confusing what is not an issue even being debated outside your fevered imagination.
...................^^..............So far Roger Helbig, and Natalie Helbig you have failed to get one single other person to take you seriously, that does not include the Seargent, of course who found it a bit too hot when he realised we were on to you. So why do you waste your time? Rabbit is happy to keep coming back here to rub your grubby little noses in your own dirt as often as you wish. The thing is you are already sunk out of sight, and yet you are still ready to try and debase yourselves even more.
Now Roger, Rabbit has long since realised that you are a complete piece of garbage, with no ability, no genuine pride and no sense of self worth.
But Natalie, you have at least retained that shred of dignity from at least being graceful in defeat, don’t dissapoint Rabbit who looks forward to a much more amenable relationship when one day we meet again? Where else does CTG have you shilling at the moment?
Roger you don’t have a shred of dignity and you are the most disgusting piece of muck ever to have lodged itself between Rabbit’s toes.
If you really wish to continue sparring with Rabbit he has gone to the trouble of registering with a few of your favorite forums, a bit of military History anyone? Would you like Rabbit to join you in your self stroking military love in? Rabbit could come and detail the stories of some of his friends who from experience swear that Australia lost more troops to the US trigger happy cowboys in Vietnam than we ever lost to the Vietnamese. There is no shortage of very unpleasant topics Rabbit could find to make your self petting life into a hell onm earth, and the fact is that there are probably a few more folk who would like to have a go at you, you would not believe how many people have been drwn to this thread, but nobody who ever looks up your name, or the issues discussed in this thread will fail to find you in all your naked lies.
Try Googling your name, and see how far away this thread is. Remember too that every time you pop back to spew lies, the search parameters are increased and the strength of the match for your name among other things, is improved.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 21, 2005 at 12:46 PM Rabbit saw this thread refferred to on a completely different site in Washington, it was described as essential reading for anyone studying the Iraq scenario or Depleted Uranium weapons abuse and propaganda in particular.
If you had enough imagination you would realise that not only have you lost this battle, you weener, you are busily burning your own ride out of the place.
Now I did promise you some further humiliation but am tired now so shall post it tomorrow. It’s all about you asshole though I promise.
Rabbit is glad though that you have decided to ensure you will be held accountable as a propagandist for War Crimes, you certainly deserve the rope and when your time comes Rabbit will be sure to smile contentedly.
Lt Colonel is a Propagandist for the use of the Banned weapon of Mass destruction, Depleted Uranium, Anybody examining this thread in future cannot fail to notice that since ROGER HELBIG is identified and is communicating with me since the posting of the actual data refferring to the crimes, he cannot fail but be held accountable and I urge all authorities to take note of this fact and ensure this Criminal is held accountable for his role in what will come to be seen as the worst crime against humanity ever perpetrated.
Natalie Helbig has also demonstrated support for the crime though she has subtly sought to minimalise her role since realising the seriousness of the likely consequences.
Nobody is exempt from prosecution for crimes against humanity, orders are not an excuse.
Roger if Rokke was to dissapear tomorrow you would still not be one step closer to changing the facts, it is touching the way you think that he is all you have to overcome to alter the world opinion. Touching but incredibly stupid.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 21, 2005 at 12:47 PM So Rabbit,
Do YOU believe a missile hit the pentagon instead of a plane? That’s a simple enough question…Yes or no?
Posted by Natalie on Sep 21, 2005 at 4:13 PM Not here it is not. Name a better forum.
Pale One…...............^^........................
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 22, 2005 at 9:30 AM Now that’s gotta be the shortest post on record by the Rabbit from Oz.
It’s extremely illuminating to learn that the two “scientists” so often cited as “experts” on the horrors of depleted uranium believe or would even suspect that a missile hit the pentagon instead of that planeload of people, none of whom we’ve heard from since.
It’s also quite interesting to learn of Moret’s bitter partisan feelings:
“Even if there was depleted uranium used, do you think the likes of Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld would really care? These are bottom feeders that 20 or 30 years ago wouldn’t have been even allowed to set foot in such high positions of power,” said Moret.
Michael Moore has demonstrated how extreme partisan hatred (and money) can influence accuracy and fairness when making a “documentary”. I suspect Moret may be under the same influences.
I’m encouraged that you apparently are not eager to associate yourself with these two on this belief, Rabbit. In fact, I think you recognized long ago that these two “experts” credentials are questionable. Hence your reluctance to discuss the science of the matter and your reliance on abuse and accusations, on threats and intimidation. Anything that might serve to distract people from focusing on the facts about depleted uranium, as layed out by multitudes of respected and genuine scientists.
I’m not interested in your identity, your gender, your aliases, or even who you might work for. But I am interested in your beliefs, how you arrive at them, and how you support and justify them. I can’t think of a more appropriate and relevant forum in which to specify your degree of alignment with the “depleted uranium tipped missile threory”.
Posted by Natalie on Sep 22, 2005 at 4:47 PM Natalie.
Rabbit gave a short reply because that is all that was needed.
This thread is about Depleted Uranium Ammunition, it’s effects and the morality of it’s continued use. You have been part of a concerted campaign by a small group of people who have been proven to be linked to each other and to the military attempt to disinform the public about DU and it’s effects. The stuff has been discussed in light of a huge range of scientific opinion as well as the historical experience of sixty years, the combined opinions of a broad range of “independant” people and in view of the actual United Nations resolutions banning it’s use.
You and Roger tried to hide your identities, which were relevant to your position. You have lied and been caught lying.
You have made transparent attempts to sidetrack the issues at every available and some manufactured instances. You have made false accusations which have not stood the test of scrutiny by independant people. Like many of the decietful things you have done, this too backfired and lost you even more ground.
Natalie, you know that Rabbit is a Male Rabbit, whether or not you care. You have no reason to think Rabbit uses aliases, Rabbit identified himself the first time he was asked to, and as such is the only person who has done so. Neither you nor Roger volunteered your names. Roger swallowed his foot the first time to give us his. You made your name a subject of importance by forcing Rabbit to prove he was neither paranoid or deluded, all things you have unsuccessfully accused Rabbit of at one time or another. By forcing Rabbit to prove you were indeed connected to Roger, you are the one who made it an issue.
The result so far Natalie is something like this.
Rabbit has told the truth, and has proven all contentions made by him. Rabbit has been proven to be honest, reasonable and not too dumb. Rabbit has been shown to possess excellent intuitive skills and a sound debating skill.
Natalie, you have been proven to be, deliberate deciever, connected to a known Depleted Uranium disinformation campaign, unreasonable and a dirty fighter, how dare you complaign about Rabbit’s gentle words on the Unnattural disaster thread! You have scrfiiced all credibility and honour to arrive at this point and now you would dare to raise your head again and try and play morally superior!
If you actually wish to debate, these, unrelated issues rabbit will be glad to do so, but not at risk of further smoke and mirrors being added to a thread which is thoroughly and completely anathema to your cause.
You have only got a small group of special interest scientists to support any part of your false claims. Rokke and Moret are welocme to believe whatever thjey choose so long as their data is correct about this issues and it is. They are not the whole basis of the case you are up against they are just the people from within the military’s own ranks who are talking the truth.
You must stop presuming things Natalie, if you take Rabbit’s refusal to be led into stupid stunts as some sort of encouragement then you are no more than a glutton for punishment.
Since the Pentagon business is a matter of opinion and since it does not have any realistic bearing on this thread, if you have any class whatever you will show it by naming an appropriate forum.
At least that way you can start out on an even footing. Here you no longer have any credibility, and it is becoming hard to imagine you have any self respect either Natalie.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 23, 2005 at 7:04 AM You cannot be serious about this being a relevant forum to discuss what is a fairly obscure and not widely accepted theory about what went on at the Pentagon. The thing which is certain is that the official story is a lie, and by the way Barbara Olsen looks like she has just turned up alive, so you were right about nobody turning up alive, only until yesterday. You see that is the thing with lies Natalie, they eventually can only fall. Only truth is here here to stay and even it must suffer constant assault by such as you.
You already know about Rabbit’s and all reasonable people’s beliefs about Depleted Uranium, stop pretending anybody has any doubt about it. It is a well established fact that the Penatgon is trying to spin DU but it is the most ambitious propaganda campaign ever attempted and has so far netted, NOT ONE believer.
You have lost here Natalie, stop rolling in all the gore on the floor, it is yours and Rogers and it is most unseemly.
Rabbit detects a mind worth meeting, but cannot do so while holding you in contempt. If you want something so important as Rabbit’s opinion on something new, then let us at least begin by showing we do not have an agenda, like perhpas messing up a thread which doesn’t say what you wanted it to say.
I mean it Nat, stop being pathetic, you look like someone who should have strength of character, not mere stubborness.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 23, 2005 at 7:04 AM Filtering through my shame-on-me scolding, I think I’ve ascertained thus:
You, Rabbit, apparently really do believe I am related or married to Roger, or possibly am him.
You believe I’m someone other than an ordinary average citizen that has some kind of outside direction to defend the use of DU for the military and don’t have the brains and common sense to recognize a ginned up propaganda campaign when I see it.
You have summarily dismissed mountains of studies by dozens of agencies and institutions all concluding basically the same thing….DU is not as harmless as Jello, but is far from being the demonic substance portrayed by you and others.
You think that because people and countries that hate or are jealous of America think that using DU is a war crime, it automatically is!
You are not sure, but you suspect that a missile was intentionally fired into the pentagon; I would guess to justify action in Iraq and secure the oil fields there for Haliburton.
You think the fact that the two most identified anti-DU “authorities” are apparently conspiracy kooks is somehow not relevant to this debate.
You think that Barbara Olson is alive.
You think you have prevailed in this debate and I should bow down in shame and proclaim myself unworthy to occupy the same comment board as the wise and all seeing Rabbit, based largely on the simple fact that Rabbit says so, energetically, and in third person for extra effect, apparently.
Basically accurate? I think so.
As for your accuracy, I’m afraid your final score is not too good.
Because I AM an ordinary citizen that has no connection whatsoever to Roger or ANYONE having ANYTHING to do with DU. (other than emailing Roger late in the game to thank him for his service and conduct small talk)
Because a plane flown by terrorists actually DID crash into the Pentagon.
Because Barbara Olson IS unfortunatly quite dead and always will be.
Because Rokke’s and Moret’s succumbing to an entirely politically motivated kook conspiracy theory that ALSO happens to lay shame on the U.S. government and it’s military is INCREDIBLY relevant to this particular debate on this particular website.
On these points, be assured that you are absolutely 100 percent WRONG. As for the remaining far more complicated ones, I prefer to leave it to history to judge who is indeed “pathetic”, and who is rolling in what on the floor, instead of simply taking your word for it.
Because although I generally adore bunny rabbits, I think I have sufficient reason not to place total trust in this particular one’s judgement.
Posted by Natalie on Sep 23, 2005 at 10:04 AM Oh for god’s sake girl, are you going to say it is a co-incidence that You and Roger are HELBIG’s?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 23, 2005 at 12:00 PM Rabbit did not say that Barbara Olsen is alive but that there is some news to that effect, have not as yet checked it self, but have been expecting it so won’t be surprised.
Does Natalie know that seven of the “alleged” hijackers of planes are alive and well and never were even in the USA at at the time?
Still officially on the list though.
If the whole thing was not such a bloody big cover up by everyone concerned then there would not be so many questions. If you wish to deny there is a mountain of evidence which “THOROUGHLY” discredits the official story of nearly everything that happened on 9/11 Rabbit shall know you are lying again for the evidence is legion and if you desire Rabbit shall bury you in enough to smash the official story ten times over and you know it can be done, or else you are so busy with “official Duties” that you don’t ever do any independent research..
Rabbit does not know what hit the Pentagon, but doubts it was the plane specified for several reasons, not the thread for it. That was a very specific part of the Pentagon hit and it was damaged in a specific way, and Rabbit might mention at this point that he is something of an expert with explosives, their chemistry and use as it happens.
There are many questions about what happened and as the Government and Pentagon are actively blocking all attempts at finding the truth it will be a little longer yet before certain facts make it impossible for the lies to stand even the breathe of air of the feeble sheeple’s gaze.
There is no way that a discussion of such unknowable, (or do you know something we don’t Nat?) things can benefit such a specific issue when all your purpose is to try and bring some sort of discredit on people who’s credibility is not in doubt. Even more importantly and it is why Rabbit shall avoid your petty tricks, the credibility of the people you would question is not central to anything which has been said in this thread. As half of the only dissenting voice on the issue, you have placed you credibility at the centre stage, and Natalie, Rabbit does not have to tell you again, you got none, sweet lips.
Poisonous eyes though.
You must have Blood…........ kill…....., drown them in Poisonous gases and radioactive rain and dust.
Mutilate their babies and their futures.
OOOH you are a Horrible breed! It is the Rabbit’s duty to face these beasts, will no one stand by his side? Must he battle them alone. She with her eyes like daggers and her words like tentacles of death, twisted and slimy and sucky.
He who must soon awaken from his death like slumber. He hears her entreaties even now, and stirs, the Master of Death…......mwa ha ha…................................ His eyes and sould are dead, yet like the undead, his zombie like words and apparent lack of sentience bely the real threat of his intent not at all. He will rise, he will rise.
Sje is arisen and what will be her new avenue of attack. How will she attempt a breach of the citadel of truth?
When all else fails, try the same thing agina nd see if something different happens.
......
Is that the plan Natalie?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 23, 2005 at 12:52 PM I thought I’d come back and nose around a bit.
Yes,the function of DU is to kill tanks and not pollute the countryside.Still,that’s what we’re doing with our good ol’ DU.Oh,and neutron bombs were designed to stop major Soviet armor advances into Western Europe.However,once used,the terrain is pretty much useless.At least with that weapon you can point to a map and tell people not to go there.Not so with dozens of pieces of itty bitty chunks of DU.
The problem is that the Pentagon places weapons in its arsenal without fully examining the dynamics of that weapon.Trying to solve the problem with a short-term solution is no real solution.Oh,and while we’re defending strewing the countryside with radioactive material,why not ‘fess up and tell us what corporation wer’e a shill for.show me a Pentagon spokesman endorseing an utterly brutal weapon of limited use,and I’ll show you a person trying to line themselves with a civilian career upon retirement.
“We’re DuPont.Making third world residents into flambe’ is our specialty.Better living,and killing,through chemistry.”
And then thirty years later someone finds the unexpended ordinance and reminds the rest of the village why they should still hate us.
The comment about the radioactive landmines should run a chill through your blood,my furry little posting friend.I’m a rural schoolteacher with a modicum of familiarity of ordinance and it took me about five seconds to imagine DU landmines and ten seconds more to imagine possible applications in war,such as remote denial of territory to armored advances.
After all,why fly a whole bunch of noisy,smelly A-10’s all around the sky trying to hit those pesky tanks that,honestly,just won’t sit still when you can simply fly one B-52 over the area and drop several thousand softball size,or maybe even smaller,mines into the area like “gravel” mines?So what if it doesn’t blow the tank to kingdom come right then?All it has to do is blow off a tread and render it useless.Then the A-10 pilot can hit it more easily.See?It is a good idea!Better yet,in the spirit of cost efficiency,instead of wasting all that fuel and bullets,we just send troops in to manually destroy the tanks and let them become familiar,albeit not immediately,with what DU does to DNA.
Later,if anyone questions just whether or not DU landmines are potent or durable,we can ask the local villagers.
“Twenty years ago,my friends and I were playing near where Americans would kill tanks.A mine went off and killed two of my friends.still another died of sickness Even though he was only nearby.Last week,my son was playing in the same area and was blown in half by another still active mine.”
What a product testimonial.
Posted by wwoods on Sep 23, 2005 at 1:06 PM Hi wwoods can you see the beasts have been watching and have arisen yet again?
Tell Rabbit it is not extraordinary tenacity?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 23, 2005 at 1:18 PM Here’s a nice set of pictures. See if you can refute these lies.
http://www.nuclearpolicy.org/files/nuclear/fahey_jun_14_03.pdf
Posted by Pale Rider on Sep 23, 2005 at 2:58 PM Maybe the lies you tell to refute earlier lies can be construed as fear.
How about a little more scholarly research to show you how foolish it is to try to trivialize the risks of DU?
http://www.nuclearpolicy.org/files/nuclear/fetter_jun_14_03.pdf
Oh, and perhaps this has been cited as well:
http://www.deploymentlink.osd.mil/du_library/du_ii/index.htm#tabl
Funny how non-scientists like myself can come up with these things. Google seems to be the chink in the armor of the apologists. Perhaps Natalie ought to recuse herself from further discussion—it’s hard to argue once someone has beaten their pithy arguments into the ground.
No, better yet—Natalie: continue posting. Your lies help me google the truth better.
Posted by Pale Rider on Sep 23, 2005 at 3:02 PM How would you like to help with the recovery of DU, Natalie?
Here, see if this sounds like it is up your alley.
If you were following the links listed above, you would have found this little ditty from the US military which shows that DU is perfectly harmless.
Go ahead, Natalie, go to MOPP-4 and get to work!
If DU is safe, why does the military recommend going to Mission Oriented Protection Posture 4, the highest possible level, to handle DU?
Soldiers go to MOPP-4 when directly attacked by chemical weapons such as blister agents, nerve gas and radiological devices.
But that’s okay, Natalie. Go read some lies and some truth and tell us you think DU is perfectly safe.
——
Much of the existing guidance and training satisfied neither requirement. For example, the DU Hazard Awareness Training Support Package-Tier I (for the general soldier audience), fielded in 1997, directed personnel to run a RADIAC meter over casualties to detect any DU contamination before providing treatment. The training video in this package implied that DU radiation is sufficiently dangerous to warrant delaying life-saving medical attention, when this is most emphatically not the case. Similarly, the recommendation to don the MOPP-4 ensemble (chemical protective mask, overgarments, rubber “booties,” and gloves) when responding to DU incidents or accidents was excessive. In hot climates like Southwest Asia, wearing MOPP-4 gear can rapidly degrade situational awareness and personal performance and increase the risk of dehydration and heat injury. On the battlefield, these conditions paradoxically could increase the risk of death or serious injury, a risk unwarranted by the relatively insignificant hazard DU poses.
Consequently, the working group suggested the services should shift their emphasis to:
clearly and accurately characterizing DU’s risks;
telling personnel how they might encounter DU contamination; and
giving personnel the knowledge they need to operate safely and effectively despite the presence of DU contamination.
To accomplish this shift in awareness, the Tri-Service DU Working Group suggested future training should emphasize this information:DU’s primary “hazard” is chemical toxicity, not low-level radioactivity;
When handling intact DU armor or unfired DU rounds and in almost all non-combat circumstances, personnel need not take protective measures against depleted uranium contamination;
Standard field safety and basic field hygiene procedures will ensure personnel safety;
Personnel may need to take protective measures in these circumstances:
in, on, or near (closer than 50 meters) an armored vehicle when DU munitions struck it;
near (closer than 50 meters) DU munitions fires (although standard guidance is to stay at least 400 meters away from such fires due to the risk of explosions and blast-fragmentation injuries); and
spending extended periods (hours daily for many days) entering and working inside DU-damaged vehicles as part of everyday duties.
Using the best available dose assessment and health effects data, the working group also suggested:Brief entries into vehicles hit by DU are safe; and
Personnel wounded by DU do not pose a contamination hazard to first responders or treatment personnel, who should never delay first aid and medical treatment because of DU wounds or wound contamination.
Posted by Pale Rider on Sep 23, 2005 at 3:09 PM Well how about that Nat, Rabbit thought he had you all to himself here in the dark, and you thought so too, with just the stranger with the stranger name watching quietly behind the curtain. He will rise, He will Rise,............... Roger arise and return…........ fresh blood awaits you.
Rabbit will even give his “Opinion” about the pentagon if you wish, but you must come and ask nicely.
He will rise,......................^^..........................
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 23, 2005 at 3:43 PM They are finally reading the whole thread, What is the bet?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 24, 2005 at 5:18 AM Rabbit dung continues to slander .. he says I tried to hide my identity .. I signed my posts Roger, which led him to me .. even though he thinks he rates up there with the great sleuths of all time like Sherlock Holmes (of course Sherlock was a fictional character, so perhaps Rabbit dung is likewise) .. I have posted my real e-mail address in a spam proof format .. I challenge Rabbit dung and all of his fellow hangers on to do likewise .. this forum limits post sizes and is not amenable to the sending of attachments. I deeply resent Rabbit dung’s assertions that I am a liar .. or that there is some sort of connection between Natalie (who also uses her real first name in posting, more than I can say for Rabbit dung, of course unlike Rabbit dung, we have not been booted from this forum under any name like Rabbitvoz was because he refused to play by the rules on at least two of the threads) .. I have never met met Natalie or even corresponded with Natalie prior to Rabbit dung’s slandering both of us in this forum. We just have similar knowledge of radioactive substances; enough to know that DU is not a nuclear weapon, is not a form of silent genocide and that while not benign, it has caused no birth defects and that Sergeant Matthews (who seems to ignore this forum) is likely being used by the anti-DU witchhunters.
romeohotelecholimabravoindiagolf@charliealphalimaspelledoutinfulldotcom ..
Posted by Ramjet on Sep 24, 2005 at 10:28 AM From another article on Rokke by Greg Szymanski—whose ArcticBeacon website does not hesitate to bring you all the conspiracy scams in the interest of your sending him a PayPal donation to keep him in the style to which he would like to be accustomed
“Army Major Doug Rokke has been shot at, run off the road, threatened, harassed, black-balled, intimidated, called a liar and treated like a “hated enemy” not by opposition forces in Iraq, but by ‘secret ops’ in the U.S. government, obviously acting on orders from top military brass.
And in May 2000 he was subjected to the biggest scare of his life when bullets rang through his son’s bedroom window while living in Jacksonville, Alabama, in what he calls “another near miss” by government hit men bound and determined to remove his presence from the planet.
Maj. Rokke, living in Rantoul, Illinois, and still active in the Army Reserves, has been a government target ever since going public in a May 1997 article in the Nation Magazine, criticizing the military for failing to clean-up depleted uranium used in Iraq during the first Gulf War. “
PS .. if one is retired, they are no longer active .. active reservists are NOT retired. He can’t be both. Of course, Doug Rokke is not really an Army major if he is a reservist either .. The rank of Major in the active Army is much more difficult to obtain than the rank of Major in the Army Reserve. Rokke wants to confuse you on that, just like he claims to have been the target of multiple hit attempts. He also claims to be dying from exposure to DU.
Leuren Moret claims to be a “whistleblower” .. to have blown the whistle while an employee of the University of California at either Lawrence Livermore or Lawrence Berkeley Laboratories. Given Moret’s in your face attitude, one would not have expected her not to file an appeal of any negative action taken against her for whistleblowing. The Department of Energy Office of Hearings and Appeals would have received any such appeal. They have no record of an appeal by Leuren Moret. That certainly makes it much less likely that she is a “whistleblower”.
I also find it odd that a “newsmaker” like Rokke would not merit an article or two in a local paper in the Rantoul area. I wonder why; perhaps, the journalists there did not accept what he told them at face value and actually checked his references and the facts.
Posted by Ramjet on Sep 24, 2005 at 11:07 AM Being from Australia, Rabbit should be able to identify with the proceedings from this “Kangaroo Court”. Early in the Roo-court’s declarations, we are suddenly aware that we have arrived in central downtown Kookville:
Judgement In The People Vs George Walker Bush
Tuesday, 16 March 2004, 10:21 am
Press Release: International Criminal Tribunal For Afghanistan
6. 11th September 2001 attacks in the United States had no connection with Afghanistan.
The prosecution has questioned the factual and legal basis of this defense , submitting at page 17 of its Indictment that -
“….. it is not etablished that the 9.11 incidents were the acts of Osama bin Laden and the al Qaeda ……..the letter to the Chairman of the UN Security Council which the United States sent on October 7 ,2001 and another letter which the United Kingdom sent of October 4, 2001 and the videotape released on December 13 are inadequate as defences .Therefore the criminal activities of Osama bin Laden and the members of the al Qaeda have never been established enough to prosecute them for 9.11 incidents”.
Admittedly videotapes of an individual claiming to be Osama bin Laden , reaching swiftly into the hands of the administration of the Defendant, and other governments , desiring to advance their own explanation for events; is not proof of the involvement of Osama bin Laden and the al Qaeda organization ,in the terrorist attacks of 9.11 ; this is tainted evidence.
On the basis of the facts which have emerged in the public domain , of the background of Osama bin Laden and of those alleged to have perpetrated the attacks of the 11th September 2001 ; of which judicial notice can be taken as per rules of evidence of the ICTA statute ; the core issue which confronts this Tribunal is whether those who allegedly committed the crimes of the 11 th Septermber 2001 in the United States, had any connection with Afghanistan”.
———————————& ———-
Low and behold, who do we find testifying for the prosecution, which has just attempted to exonerate Osama bin Laden, but that dynamic duo of Moret and Rokke:
“Ms Leuren Moret gave vital evidence of United States military policy , on the use of DU weapons, tracing the history of its creation and the politics of its use - Prosecution document Ex .E 156 .Ms Leuren Moret deposed that - after the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki , an international outcry and taboo against nuclear weapons, prevented the further use of nuclear and radioactive weapons ;this policy was abandoned in 1991;a decision was made by the Strategic Command in the USA to blur the distinction between conventional and nuclear weapons by introducing DU into the battlefield ; this witness has aptly described DU as the “trojan horse ” of nuclear weapons ; with similar effects.
The documents produced by this witness, handed over to her by Major Doug Rokke ; prove conclusively that the United States government and military were aware from 1943 , of the genocidal and omnicidal nature of DU weapons .A memorandum dated 30th October 1943 , received by General Groves in charge of the Manhattan Project ( nuclear weapons project ) from three physicians working under him , Prosecution document Ex -E 126, recommends that radiological materials be developed for use as a military weapon on the battlefield. It was a blueprint for depleted uranium weaponry”.
Cue ominous music. How about the Twilight Zone theme? Yeah, that’d be good, use that.
http://tinyurl.com/av634
Posted by Natalie on Sep 24, 2005 at 7:38 PM Rabbit, your “Pale Rider” alias is all too transparent. Your tactic of adopting a polar-opposite measured, understandable debating technique does not hide your identity. It’s just the trick I would use. I know from experience, you see!! If readers will page up a few posts, they will see a reference posted by Rabbit that will make clear the association:
“Pale One…...............^^........................”
Nice try, Pale Rabbit. You forgot you left this little nugget of evidence, didn’t you? You’re not the only sleuth on this board!! But shame on me—as I have previously stated, the name, identity or number of personalities is unimportant. I will address the substance of your posts assuming you are actually two separate people, even though I KNOW you are one. My evidence and logic is unassailable. ........NN….....
Nuclear Natalie
Posted by Natalie on Sep 24, 2005 at 8:26 PM I don’t know if you are simply careless, Pale Rider, or if you are stealthily on my side. Pasting directly from your above post, caps emphasis added:
“Much of the existing guidance and training satisfied neither requirement. For example, the DU Hazard Awareness Training Support Package-Tier I (for the general soldier audience), fielded in 1997, directed personnel to run a radiac meter over casualties to detect any DU contamination before providing treatment. The training video in this package IMPLIED that DU radiation is sufficiently dangerous to warrant delaying life-saving medical attention, WHEN THIS IS MOST EMPHATICALLY NOT THE CASE. Similarly, the recommendation to don the MOPP-4 ensemble (chemical protective mask, overgarments, rubber “booties,” and gloves) when responding to DU incidents or accidents was EXCESSIVE. In hot climates like Southwest Asia, wearing MOPP-4 gear can rapidly degrade situational awareness and personal performance and increase the risk of dehydration and heat injury. On the battlefield, these conditions paradoxically could increase the risk of death or serious injury, a risk UNWARRANTED by the relatively INSIGNIFICANT HAZARD DU poses.”
Perhaps I’m missing something.
The Nuclear Policy organization you linked to is simply an anti-everything to do with nuclear propaganda site. Their slideshows are of little value in reaching any reliable conclusions re: DU. They are more confusing than anything.
Your link: http://www.deploymentlink.osd.mil/du_library/du_ii/index.htm
Contains lots and lots of statements like this:
“There have been a number of studies of workers exposed to uranium and, despite some workers being exposed to large amounts of uranium, there is NO evidence that either natural uranium or DU is carcinogenic. This lack of evidence is seen even for lung cancer following inhalation of uranium. As a precaution for risk assessment and to set dose limits, DU is assumed to be potentially carcinogenic, but the lack of evidence for a definite cancer risk in studies over many decades is significant and should put the results of assessments in perspective.”
And this:
“Numerous studies of the effects of inhaled or ingested uranium in humans have not conclusively documented increased death rates or effects on the immune or nervous systems. Other studies have looked at several common effects uranium could cause. Uranium miners have experienced an increased risk of lung cancer, which scientists agree is attributable to other substances, such as tobacco smoke, radon, and radon’s short-lived radioactive decay products. Heavy metals also may affect the liver, but high doses are required to produce observable effects. Although animal studies have suggested possible liver injury from uranium, it has not been found in anyone exposed to DU, including workers at uranium testing sites, even when exposures were much longer and much higher than Gulf War veterans’.”
Please confirm which side of the debate you are on!!
Posted by Natalie on Sep 24, 2005 at 8:32 PM It is interesting to read through the postings in response to Lindorf’s article. Why anyone wastes time replying to “Rabbit” is beyond me—it’s clearly a person whose only power and purpose lies in attacking others on the Internet, and the very nature of his postings demonstrate more about his own feelings of inadequacy than they do about depleted uranium. From other things I’ve read about depleted uranium, it seems that is an issue that attracts misfits and losers and attention-seekers. Why isn’t it getting more attention in society, politics, and the media? Maybe it is because the people speaking out about it lack credibility. Rabbit, you’ve lost this race, and should remain in your hole.
Posted by Hare on Sep 24, 2005 at 8:37 PM You are one stupid desperate little lady Natalie.
There is a reference to pale one as you so predictably pointed out? Now do you actually think Rabbit would be so dumb as to say something like Pale One to you and then come here as Pale Rider?
Of course that sort of stupidity would be par for the course for our proven little shills like the Helbigs. There is a connection though between Pale Rider and that comment and though it is of no consequence, Rabbit shall mention it to show what a tosser you are.
Pale Rider is someone who Rabbit has had some contact at another site. He has mentioned this thread to Rabbit when he saw Rabbit over at the site concerned. He has an interest in the DU issue as do many people by the way, and actually has been one to keep Rabbit informed that you had popped up again over here, even before he posted here.
Initially Rabbit was not sure that Pale Rider was not your self, because he had a different handle when first we met. THis seemed possible because his comments about DU once as Pale Rider had been cryptic. The comment to you as Pale one was as it happens a fishing trip by Rabbit to check that possibility. You never even nibbled so Rabbit guessed it wasn’t you.
You must get all thoughts out ofr your weeny head of outsmarting Rabbit, you are just seeming more and more poathetic with each new hystericqal claim.
Now shall we get down to business.
Roger Helbig, you are as usual a lying pig.
You only used your name Roger because you are too unimaginative to come up with anything else except your lifelong hero of Ramjet. You have always sung the little song to yourself when the other nasty airforce officers put you down, didn’t you?
You wre tricked, quite by accident by us into revealing your own identity. Somebody mentioned the name of Roger Helbig and that he was a known Pentagon DU Disinfo agent. Rabbit speculated out loud and you did your usual “jump then don’t look anyway” and gave up your name, for which you have been gnashing your teeth ever since.
You and Natalie then tried to pretend you did not know each other even when the possibility was raised. You both lied about this relationship then and despite having both given it away you are reverting to former lies as you always do.
It is furthermore very obvious that you are both working together to hog the last posts of each page as this thread goes on and on.
This is a classic Shilling trick and it is excellent that you have provided the troops with the demo of just how underhanded and sleazy as well as dishonest the US government is when it is spreading lies.
Now Hare is so obviously a construct at this point that you pair and your department is the most weird looneys ever seen.
Hare is not even worth a reply. If Hare had reqad anything it would know there is nothing here but the remains of two thoroughly discredited official Liers.
Is Natalie and Roger not liers then.
Did the whole world just appear fresh and new at the start of you last post Roger and Natalie.
Since you have trouble doing more than trying to insult a superior soul and avoid at all cost facing any truth Rabbit shall stick to repeating some of the things which make you liers and losers.
It was nice to see Pale Rider join us and perhaps wwoods will be back, these people have and will put your mangy “recycled lies” into the biox. Rabbiot shall point out what filth you both are, again.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 25, 2005 at 3:20 PM Innadeqacy quaint Hare, is feeling a need to post under several different handles to make it look like you have supporters, no what I mean.
Innadequacy is being called accurately on all your own personality disorders by someone who you just don’t seem to be able to score a point against because you are everything you try and call others.
You wish Rabbit was insecure, you wish Rabbit was crazy and you wish Rabbit was half as stupid as yourself, because then you would not feel so inadequate yourself. In this you are wrong, you would be just as innadequate with or without Rabbit’s help.
Just one posting to judge it from but guess is it is Roger, the same “pompous” whining tone, it’s hard to hide Roger.
Maybe wrong , there is a first time for everything.
It could be the Sargent, but he was more considered, less “suffering”.
DU SHILLS
You are dealing in war crimes, you are lying about the ill effects, you are ignoring the whole Ceramics Oxide danger which is the worst, you fiddle around with the radiation issue because you know it’s safer ground.Nobody independant has supported your case. You claim there is an Anti-DU movement. There is, it is called the civilized world. Something from ewhich you are exclued by choice.
The reason that there is not much about this in the media yet is because many people are crusing along with no idea that scumbags like you are trying to create doubt where there is none. Very few people have put two and two together yet and realised exactly what this sexy sounding new stuff, depleted uranium is.
All we have to do is bring the issue into the open as we are doing with your invaluable help, Shills. From here the people realise what you are doing in their name and they will be coming with the rope, I promise.
Back to the war crime issue again now guys.
You Lt Colonel Roger Helbig and Natalie Helbig are hereby formally charged by Me, Rabbit as a citizen of the world. You are propagandising for the use of a banned weapon of mass destruction. You are committing the crime with full knowledge of the resolutions which together with other legal treaties will be used to try you in an international court one fine day.
You are a pair of “Known” employees of agencies which have direct connections to the Pentagon efforts to misinform the public and keep the truth hidden from US citizens and servicemen.
You can chuck all the hollow taunts you like my way. Rabbit is in no doubt who has lost this whole battle. You have lost the debate in every sense. You have never established a single fact which changes the horrible nature of what is being done with Nuclear Waste.
You ahve never said anything about yourselves which did not turn out to be a lie. You have prevaricated and waffled and repeated and smoked and mirrored your way to a point of having absolutely abandoned all pretence of trying to find truth , rather you have been the nemesis of truth from the outset.
As usual you are so stupid you both dance for Rabbit exactly as he plays the tune. You cannot leave this thread, you hope to always get in the last shilling effort at the end of the page. You’ve had eight goes at it and nearly everyone you ahve suddenly made tha same long posting with all the disproven lies repeated as if they had never been said before.
If Rabbit was to stop now and others also, you pair would definately fill up the rest of this page with your lies again, because you seem to think people will only read backwards on the thread or something.
Depleted Uranium has ceased to be the central issue on this thread it has long since become a study of the Disinformation Campaign and you shills for Death in particular.
You are inhuman. You are damned. You are Traitors to your nation and to the human race.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 25, 2005 at 3:47 PM Natalie is this the sort of stunt that CTG sells the government?
Is this what is called “information strategies”
...................
http://www.ctg.albany.edu/about/about?sub=people§ion=natalie
....................“The Center for Technology in Government works with government to develop information strategies that foster innovation and enhance the quality and coordination of public services.
We carry out this mission through applied research and partnership projects that address the policy, management, and technology dimensions of information use in the public sector.
The results generated by each project add to a growing knowledge base designed to support the work of both government professionals and academic researchers. Our guides, reports, and tools are freely available on our Publications page.”
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 25, 2005 at 3:55 PM Remember these words Natalie?
“Don’t get me wrong. I’m as concerned with genuine health risks as the next person.”
.....Sure you are.
How about this touching moment when two strangers met for the first time, two strangers with the same cause and surname.
————-
“Natalie,I admire your guts, taking on these scientific illiterate bullies .. look forward to direct communication.”
...........Tonight when you get home dear. Liers. You were not having any luck with the science back thenm either.About ten well informed people making mince-meat of you, go check it’s on page 2.
Page 2 was one which Ramjet did not quite manage to have the last post. He tried with almost half the page of posting repeats of lies, but he missed by a couple of lines because Ammonia D posted simulataneously to Rogers last. Cute.
—————————Our innocent open minded Natalie in another guise.
“I am new to this subject, although I have heard brief mention of it elsewhere in the past.”........Sure you have Natalie. Well you sure made up your mind in a hurry, girl.
Rabbit was going to go down and keep re-posting some of your earlier lies which have since become quite ridiculous, but frankly the re-read of some of your filthy, sleazy, lying bumptious drivel is making Rabbit feel sick.
How many times do you excuses for life want to be dumped in the muck of your own making before you give up. Rabbit can keep on refuting your lies forever, or at least until you are imprisoned for your crimes, but what is the point? You are liers and I claim this as a fact and have proven it repeatedly. I am also happy to continue proving you are liers. There is no need for Rabbit to prove DU dangerous for troopps and for civilians and for the environment. This is about the best known fact in the world and no amount of paid scientists from tainted organistaions or outdated studies, or partial studies will change it.
There is no further need to prove you are liers with not a single credit to your names.
Hell even the fact that you banded together to get Rabbit"briefly” shut down backfired and proved that Rabbit was never the one to have said anything wrong. The reason you are doing so badly here is that you began with lies, you continued to lie and you still do.
It was said on the first page by others that Roger had not enough credibility left to get any interest in any of his sources even. That was before we knew that he was a genuine Pentagon Shill. What now we know you are both in it together?
Oh Rabbit keeps forgetting That Natalie Helbig and Roger Helbig do not know each other, how could I forget.
By the way Lying shills, Eadora put a very simple question to you both once and like all straight questions to which you could not lie, you have ignored it. You have been asked numerous times but for some strange reason keep on ignoring her. You did the same with rabbit’s questions until you thought Rabbit was no longer watching, then out you came to do a little dance of spin. This backfired as Dave called you on it.
You are not having a good round here. Not a single sale in what, two months of constant shilling?
Don’t you get paid if you don’t do a good job here?
How do you sleep at night scum?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 25, 2005 at 4:23 PM Go and start using Depleted Uranium Weapons your selves if you love the stuff so much..
Rabbit prays that if either of you ever breed the children are affected by Radiation poisoning. I sincerely pray that your womb is radiactoive dear Natalie, it would be fitting and so just. You are trying to condemn thousands of other women to the same fate and you are an abomination. Get back into the pit you pair of most foul beasts, begone from the sight of God, get beneath the earth. Nor will the earth hide you though you beg it to swallow you up. It’s trees will give you no shade and its waters shall taste bitter to you. Yeh like unto blood which is the thing you you make rivers of. Rivers of blood and poisoning the world, poisoning her children and her childrens children. You lie to do it and you sell your souls for what? Fotr the right to be counted amongst the worst War mongering Whores of all human History.No this is not overly dramatic, no hyperbole is possible. Rabbit has long been lost for words which could adequately express my loathing for you.
I promise that I shall follow you past this life and I will catch up with you grubs on the other side. Rabbit will be crossing over with eyes open this time, you will know what that means upon your re-awakening. At that time I command you to remember Rabbit and that he will be along immediately as is always the case in the timeless place. Then we shall see about things, little devils. What will you do when the time for lies is past? Face the truth and Rabbit will be there to serve it up to you in mighty doses. For now you are playing in a harmless garden, the test will be eternity. You guys are going to find eternity a bit different to Rabbit when the time comes.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 25, 2005 at 4:48 PM Now what have you creeps been up to now, Pale Rider has just sent Rabbit an E-mail. Having just read all his posts, which Rabbit had barely done before, it is impossible to see why Pale Rider would have been banned. Yet he is.
Have you two sneaky trolls been up to your previous tricks of making false allegations against people? When all else fails scream foul? Is that your game?
It is easy to see why Pale Rider would worry you..
He has all the answers you shameless shills don’t want to see at this late stage of the game, when you feel enough distance has been made between your earlier humiliations.
Rest assured Rabbit will look into this and if you pair have pulled your silly little tricks again, I would predict an interesting outcome. This site has shown that while they take their code of conduct seriously, they are nontheless fair and prepared to take the trouble to establish the truth. That can only be anathema to such as you.
If there is some other reason, Rabbit apologises in advance, but I smell a Rat, and you two are prime candidates.
.................................................^^.......................... .....
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 26, 2005 at 1:32 AM Here is what Pale Rider tried to post apparently.
..............................
Natalie and Roger Ramjet,The web administrator banned me. I have a separate e-mail and a separate life from the ghost rabbit. Ghost rabbit has to post this thing for me because of this site.
To think he and I are the same is typical of your fear of a community of people who wish to counter your lies on DU. Suffice it to say, go ahead and think we are one. That’s how we think.
I’m not the rabbit and he is not me. You see, Rabbit is a peaceful fellow living on the shore of a land down under, living near the water.
Rabbit doesn’t know this, but I do: Once the Inspector General representing the Air Force at the Pentagon gets wind of what you’re up to, prepare for an Article 32 hearing. Prepare yourself to find a JAG lawyer through the AF who can represent you for conduct unbecoming, engaging in media work outside of the scope of your responsibilities, and for disseminating information against stated policy. The thread of your lies will make wonderful reading in any setting where the UCMJ is practiced. They won’t jail you, of course, no no no. Not for lying, engaging in writing on blog comment threads, no no no. Letter of reprimand, signed by the first General Officer in your rating or evaluation chain of command, filed away, promotions stopped, and that’s that, the end of the career without hope for advancement, hello, civilian world on retirement pay.
Natalie and Roger Ramjet, I’m so close to you it ought to send you into convulsions. Come up I-95 a bit and we’ll drive, all of us, to a place called the Aberdeen Proving grounds. We’ll gather up some DU. Shall we, instead, travel over to FT Detrick, Maryland? We’ll meet at the little gas station by the gate. We’ll use my car—it has a Military District of Washington sticker on it and I can get through the gate with my ID. We’ll visit the range, where we can share some hands on experience with some DU shells. FT D has some wonderful places to find whatever and whathaveyou, all of it toxic. Why not? Why not test some of your theories against reality?
If those sites are too far, let’s go out to the weapon qualification and bivouac ranges on Fort AP Hill, named after some ornery cuss of a Civil War general.
By all means, let’s share the experience of DU and hand the shells around. You can handle the shell, I’ll handle the shell. We’ll give it a good sniff. We’ll run our fingers along the edge of the DU artillery shell and feel the filaments and the crease in the casing. We’ll take a long look at the shell, the stamped words on the base of the casing where the firing pin hit the center and fired the shell out on the range.
We’ll all have a wonderful time. What? Not safe to handle DU? Ahh, don’t worry about it. I’ll be at MOPP 4. Bring your gear.
Why not? You both have all these theories. Let’s see if they hold water.
The Pale Rider—posted by ghostrabbit.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 26, 2005 at 1:34 AM Actually Pale Rabbit, according to information YOU provided in your previous post, one would have to caress and stroke with their BARE hands a long….hard…..cylindrical DU penetrator for quite some time before she/he would come close to exceeding safe radiation levels.
“Contact with bare skin presents another external radiation exposure path. DU produces a dose rate of about 0.2 rem/hour, largely from beta radiation, when in contact with bare skin.[75] A person would exceed the current occupational dose limit for skin (50 rem in a year) only if unshielded DU (e.g., bare penetrators) directly contacted the skin for more than 250 hours in a year.[76] Some reports mistakenly have applied the total effective dose equivalent (whole body dose) criterion of 0.1 rem/year for members of the public to this exposure of the skin only, leading to the erroneous conclusion that contact with one exposed DU penetrator could subject a person to a dose of radiation thousands of times higher than the recommended limit. This conclusion is erroneous because contact with a DU penetrator exposes only a very small part of the body, namely the skin in direct contact with the DU. The radiation limit for the public assumes the exposure is to the entire body and that the partial body exposure carries a smaller risk than whole-body exposure. In addition, the risk from skin exposure is much less than the risk associated with exposure to more sensitive internal organs.”
http://www.deploymentlink.osd.mil/du_library/du_ii/index.htm
Now if we were to simply wear some gloves, we could go at it with the penetrators for even longer than 250 hours. Much, much longer. Also, according to information YOU provided in your previous post, MOPP-4 gear is unnecessary and unwarranted for being around DU.
Wear it if you wish, but you’re gonna be mighty uncomfortable, and I suspect your experience will be greatly diminished.
Posted by Natalie on Sep 26, 2005 at 4:35 PM Natalie for someone who considers their internet intelligence skills are worth money, you are remarkably dull.
Lets try Forums 101:
A check of Pale Riders Posts here and at WM especially where he is better known will tell you a couple of things right away.
Rabbit who also visits Washington Monthly a lot is very clearly a different personality from Pale Rider. It will also be apparent to the discerning that we live in completely different time zones and our posts which overlap sometimes are sometimes made with hours between and at others have been completely overlapping, simultaneous sister.
Now when people are either the same or working in concert, certain things give them away very easily. We can look at the pattern of posting between between Roger, Sacase, (others maybe) and certainly yourself and then the latest funny one Hare. The connections are apparent to any but the most mediocre minds. The posts are cross referencing each other, congratualing each other gratuitously, especially when you say great point to someone, do try and find a point which ahs not been soundly demolished by six very considered and reasonable posters in a row. That is dumb anytime, sister, but when you are trying to maintain some distance or some independance from a cause it is like a RED FLAG. The posts of such a “band” as we have proven you are, yes PROVEN so don’t even think about going there again, the posts of such a band are obvious as such when the timings and order of postings correlate in harmony with the others of that band. Yours did and do. This is just the basics sister but they are enough to prove you are what you are, even without all the admissions and evidence you have been so stupid as to provide. More importantly they are in this instance enough to prove Pale Rider and Rabbit are two VERY different people. Rabbit might add that Pale Rider and he could not be the same person unless I was posting 24 hours a day. Also we do not alaway agree on everything, but have both altered each others perceptions at times. Rabbit has actually Known Natalie longer, about twice as long.
Those numbers and forms which Pale Rider mentions are not known to Rabbit, who is living way down under Natalie’s feet, in Oz.
Pale Rider has a certain style and Rabbit suspects he may be or has been MI, that is a small Rabbit mention dear Nat, take it or leave it. Pale Rider has “crushed” some Military shills befre and he seems to have the goods. There is no way to describe exactly how awful it is to watch, but since Natalie has suffered at the hands of an Angry Rabbit so far, it may be worth taking The Rider on the Storm, seriously, especially if Natalie is a Captain as Rabbit once joked. Of course Natalie works for CTG, civvy street, so of course Natalie could not be. So long as Roger is retired it may not be able to worry him either, you have only the WAR CRIMES tribunals to look forward to then...............
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 27, 2005 at 8:10 AM Now hopefully Natalie by posting that last post you have given up the distracting pretence of open mindedness about DU and that you are someone who has no knowledg or experience about DU?
Rabbit shall find Pale Rider and will return with his message to you. He was seen at WM earlier today, and Rabbit got an E-mail from him earlier. He has told Rabbit other interesting things and a bit embarrassing things about such as Roger and it was this Rabbit was alluding to earlier, but will save them for later just as a kind of ‘surprise’ insult.
Please note gang of Shills that Rabbit has written a long e-mail to the staff of ITT and am requesting they take a good look at this thread and what you clowns are up to. This seems to be the right cause of action now that you appear for a second time to attempt to silence dissent with a combined false complaint against someone. This time you have not the least excuse for complaint and if you have done it using new names all the better, cause that will peg them to.
If this does not worry you lying mistakes of creation, you are not thinking about the fact that Rabbit was vindicated after your earlier accusations proved false. You actually gave yourself away, Natalie, by complaining on the Unnatural Disaster thread. Rabbit had left his footprints in several forums and made these much “dirtier” so that when they were not pulled and one in which Rabbit had said nothing amiss, except to mention the DU issue, was, and you had looked in to that issue at the same moment…............
—
Not even hard my little amateur evil one.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 27, 2005 at 8:11 AM Now Natalie in the mean time would you like to tackle the things Rabbit has said in his own posts, before. You and Roger have become the central issue here, and it is eminently on topic. You are formally requested to reply in detail to Rabbit’s actual statemnets to you.
Wriggle on the hook, lie some more or take off the stupid mask and act like an adult. Just stop ignoring the numeroues fluerescent Monkeys which Rabbit has released from you box.They are bright and a bit hard to ignore any longer. Nat they are pulling at your hair and clothing sitting on your head and there are several Shiny monkeys sitting on Rogers shoulders over there he can hardly remain invisible with a few Bright Fluerescent monkeys sitting on his shoulders nad head.
Tell us about the Monkeys Natalie, while we wait for something better to turn up. Who are you and why is Shilling for the continued use of an internationally banned weapon of war. The use of which is considered to be a war crime in all but two countries who are currently using it in vast quantities.
You are not un-biased that is esatblished Natalie, but unless you can honestly state a reason your unnatural interest in the proliferation of a New Lie. It is not an old issue. There never was an issue, this is what we call Dirty bombs and the USA is afraid of a single one of them and considers anybody who would use a DIRTY BOMB against them to be beneath all human resepct or consideration.
...
...Rabbit is wholly in agreement that anybody who would use a Dirty Bomb against anybody is beneath all human respect or consideration.
./.There is no way to say what I feel for you Natalie, and Roger and any more of you gutless wonders.
...
I curse you from the core of my soul, you are damned and I will offer my own soul in exchange if this judgement is found wanting. You are as Eadora said, the “Banality of Evil”.
...
Your face Natalie, and Rabbit has looked upon it’s likeness, gives no indication of the putrescence which lies just beneath those eyes.
Such loathesome conduct as yours is most alarming and yet highly encouraging.How good are you clowns reckoned to be? That is the question. Are you just learner shills? Maybe you are amongst the better shills, you have shown some sort of organisational skills but too amateurish. Have located a much better crew though they are scattered since the site blew up under the battle which was barely enjoined.
They have some smart ones, and they don’t take the same bait twice, they learn and have shown an alarming ability to transform from one defeat into a more effective force next time...Still if you are counted as anything then it is encouraging…..........................^^........................
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 27, 2005 at 8:34 AM I received the following comment in response to an inquiry about Rabbit and his many disguises ..
I just read through those messages, and I wouldn’t waste my time—“Rabbit” seems to be psychotic!
Daniel Fahey also commented about DU and Traprock Peace Center’s involvement with anti-war movement, which Traprock is trumpeting about educating.
“DU has been an issue related to Iraq for a long time—I spoke at anti-sanctions events in the 90s, but at that time people were aware that much of Saddam’s claims were propaganda, so the anti-sanctions folks largely avoided the issue. But the anti-war community has certainly picked it up, and made it into a monster that doesn’t exist.”
Daniel Fahey, A Gulf War vet, concerned about Gulf War Syndrome and exposure to DU munitions, did extensive research and found that DU is not the Monster that Traprock and Rabbit claim it to be. As a result, he has had his character assassinated .. and he made the following comment about the way the anti-DU movement operates ..
He said their tactics were quite violent despite their claim to be for “peace” .. I asked violent in what ways and he replied
“Violent in that they viciously attack anyone who challenges their gospel. Violent in that they conduct character assassinations, for example against you and I. They claim to represent peace when in fact they are simply self-righteous imperialists, pushing their twisted notion of justice and truth”
I am sure that those of you who have joined this conversation to learn will realize that this is the modus operandi of Rabbit, his many guises and the others who follow his lead.
Posted by Ramjet on Sep 27, 2005 at 8:59 AM Limp wristed little colonel, you forget once again the WHOLE thread stands in testimony to you and to Rabbit. Rabbit has never indulged ion any hide and seek like you lyiong scum. You have been caught cheating and lying and its all here.
Rabbit was lied about after you and Natalie and had to return as Ghost Rabbit to undo the injustice and the history of tyhis is all here. Rabbit never pretended he was anybody but Rabbit on both times and ALL my posts stand in testimony to that.
You and Natalie are who Rabbit says you are, you have both admitted it earlier and IT IS ALL HERE.
Nobody could have offerred more than an opinion about Rabbit to you asshole, and nobody whos opinion is worth anything could fail to recognise that Rabbit is an unusually honest and perspicacious Rabbit. And Roger Helbig, the proven Shill, and obviously insane man in denial, have been shown to be such a complete lier and Fraud, and Roger, ALL THE PROOF IS HERE IN THIS THREAD and I challenge you to deny any of it.
Roger Your goose is cooked and IT IS ALL HERE , ..................in this thread, what would you like to deny, lier? What quotes shall Rabbit recall to prove that you have been proven to be a piece of lying Garbage who is well on his way to meeting with the rope?
What l;ies have you spouted colonel which stood up, expecially any presumptions you made about Rabbit. You are proven liers while Rabbit is proven to tell only the truth.
Come on you hopeless old loser, come and get some more belting about your pathetically addled head. You’ve had so many blows to the head you think night is day Roger and if you said it was Day, Rabbit would take a torch, you coul=d not be trusted to give the directions to the toilet anmd your bitch piece of relative Natalie Helbig is a Chip off the old block for sure.
What do you get paid Lying SHILL?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 27, 2005 at 12:01 PM Roger your last little plea for people to ignore Rabbit is really a plea from your wizened up little heart that they don’t read the rest of the thread.
RABBIT SWEARS THAT ANYBODY WHO READS THE WHOLE THREAD UP TO THIS POINT WILL BE SO DISGUSTED WITH ROGER AND NATALIE LONG BEFORE NOW THAT YOU WILL SOON BE POSTING AGAINST THESE SCUM YOURSELF OR JOINING THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN SENDING RABBIT ENCOURAGEMENT.
Roger wants you to take him on trust from this point on, Rabbit says don’t trust him or Rabbit, go back and see for yourself.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 27, 2005 at 12:13 PM BITE ME Colonel Roger Helbig and Natalie Helbig who are not related to each other and just met on this thread for the first time when Natalie wanted to know the truth about this DU stuff she had heard something about.
.....
BITE ME you lying ass, and any more waffling for space by you will be met with another enjoinder to people to read all about it. Back to page one and watch the SHILLS operate.
If Rabbit is found wanting say what you like. If you want to say anything except “Good onya” Roger, then careful of the natural urge people have to abuse these animals. Just tell them they are lying sacks. If they can they will complain in unison to get people banned, and they don’t need any reason than that someone has embarrassed them.GO BACK TO THE START OF THE THREAD AND IT IS ALL REVEALED.
Get ready for Roger or Nat to come in with a false testimony any moment.
Byu the way, see the tag team action between Nat and Roger on the last? THat is what they always do when one orthe othjer gets pinned on something. The other takes over while the matter receds back up the thread.
They are counting on nobody reading it all to see them but as can be seen plenty have.
.....Roll up, Roll up folks, what a show…...
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 27, 2005 at 12:22 PM “Given the following statement in Boston Globe article about study of the foreign fighters in Iraq,
“Obaid said in an interview from London that his Saudi study found that ‘’the largest group is young kids who saw the images [of the war] on TV and are reading the stuff on the Internet. Or they see the name of a cousin on the list or a guy who belongs to their tribe, and they feel a responsibility to go.””
What effect do you anti-DU activists think that you are creating? I think you are helping to create suicide bombers. Are you proud of yourselves?
Boston Globe
July 17, 2005
Pg. 1Study Cites Seeds Of Terror In Iraq
War radicalized most, probes find
By Bryan Bender, Globe Staff
WASHINGTON—New investigations by the Saudi Arabian government and an Israeli think tank—both of which painstakingly analyzed the backgrounds and motivations of hundreds of foreigners entering Iraq to fight the United States—have found that the vast majority of these foreign fighters are not former terrorists and became radicalized by the war itself. ” wrote ramjet
Ok why should anyone trust what the Saudis and Isreal say? They are totally in cahoots with the NEOCON propaganda machine!Heck,Bush had the Bin ladens Flown out of the country within hours of 9/11 When air traffic was SHUT down for the rest of the country! Then the Globe writes “...backgrounds and motivations of hundreds of foreigners entering Iraq to fight the United States—have found that the vast majority of these foreign fighters are not former terrorists and became radicalized by the war itself.” BY THE *WAR* itself! stop the war if you want fewer “terrorists”.It was also recently shown that most of the “insurgents” ARE NOT foreigners! They are the Iraqis!
As far as Natilies comments on the pentagon strike, more realistic,true comments to come…
Clearly this is a deversionary post to direct out attentions to the other propaganda war they feel they are winning,(not likely).Isn’t it strange how vigorously, these pro DU defend their pont of view?why? is it so hard to accept that people want to know MORE about it,not less?Why is the fox gaurding the chicken house?
Also, what happened to the comment made by the Moderator admitting he HAD rearanged the thread and deleted some of it,that was here a week or so ago?AND he apologised about it.Maybe because he knew Rabbit was/is right.
Posted by Kaw Valley Kid on Sep 27, 2005 at 4:23 PM The warmongers,also know as “defense contractors"or profiteers,that run the pentagon,and own our government could care less about the returning soldiers.That would cut into thier profit margins,the whole point of war to begin with(profit).Well that,and to kill as many brown people as possible.If they can help the oil barrons(also themselves) so much the better!
“The thing I’m worried about with everybody chasing depleted uranium is that we’re missing the boat,” she insists.With so much attention on depleted uranium, other possible causes for the veterans’ illnesses go unexplored and the veterans aren’t helped. wrote RAMJET.
Like they WOULD explore the “other possible causes.Again I say the leaders here DON’T CARE.
“If I thought that another country had deliberately spread a terrible poison on my country, I would give my life to fight that other country.” wrote ramjet
Would you give your life if the leaders of YOUR OWN country did the same? because they are,its called PROPAGANDA. If you want a clue to whats going on,find the speach Eisenhower gave as he was leaving office.But then again,why bother,you know exactly what PNAC is doing,your obviously one of their tools.
Natalie,Yeah right.We’ve seen you before,you don’t fool us.
ramjet writes"Read the Bob Evans’s articles .. learn the facts - he is a reporter, not an activist with an axe to grind.”I think “reporter"is the key word here,nuff said
Judgeing from the length and depth of ramjets replies,it is clear it is his JOB to write such things.most people wouldn’t have the time to do so.Not to mention HE ADMITS who he is!Why would you trust someone so deeply invoved in the military complex,they of course are trying to cover their own asses and keep the sheeple asleep to reality!
mauk2 wrote
“And we’re naming an Attack Sub after this guy<sigh>” yep,and they named an OIL tanker after Condi, so what?
“The author of the article is a complete joke. To ANYONE who has served in the military (something most of your liberals have not done) we know several of his claims are completely False.” wrote sacarseThe thing about the military,is the FRIST thing they do,is break you down and reprogram you,much like cults do. nuff said
“I bet many of you think that “Over There” is realistic depiction the war huh? “wrote sacarse
No,we know it is much worse,though our corperate owned media and President would never let us see it.look what happend when we DID get to see it,nightly during Viet Nam,the people rose up to demand an end to it.we can’t have that now can we?
Ramjet ect… wrote “A Chemical Agent is a gas, the first was ...”why must it be a gas? chemicals come,and can be spread in many different forms.
Again the kernal(ramjet) wrote"Third, any time anyone tries to point out the many fallacies of the anti-DU crowd, they are derided, claimed to be shills, when in reality, the anti-DU crowd are the bullies with the shills like Rabbit Dung who does not have the guts to privately write me and provide me his name.”
Rabbit gave you his full name a page or two back Roger,why don’t you look him up?
this post and the previous one are in reverse order,My first post apparently didn’t get posted,so this is a repost of it KVK
Posted by Kaw Valley Kid on Sep 27, 2005 at 4:26 PM -
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