China’s Communists take pride in turning established ideas on their heads. Their latest success has been in toppling the notion that free markets create free societies. Though China is the fastest growing economy in the world, censorship and limits on freedom of expression are on the increase as the government struggles to contain growing unrest across the country. New regulations… return to article
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Reader Comments (21)Page 1 of 1 pages>> Their latest success has been in toppling the notion that free markets create free societies. <<
The entire article is about the communists striving for success, and often failing to be successful.
In fact, since Nixon went to China, the driving force behind our China policy has been to increase China’s economic freedom and performance with the object of increasing personal and political freedom. Sweeping change and growth has come to China, and political thought is abrewing. You can see, and sense, the growth of economic freedom and political freedom. (I first visited China in 1984, and have been back several times since. My wife is a Chinese medical doctor.)
Two thoughts:
First, in the 1980s, Japan was growing rapidly, and there was much speculation that Japan might dominate the world economically. Then Japan reached its limits, and has stagnated for fifteen years. Just now, Koizumi has forced reforms into the calcified Japanese bureaucracy, and, with luck, Japan will now resume a more sustainable growth rate.
China has more limits than Japan ever had, and will start reaching those limits at some point soon. China’s limits include too many people, not enough natural resources (water, even), a dysfunctional banking system, a crippled and crippling socialist political system that does not mesh well with the free economic system it is trying to build, and a concentration on low tech manufacture in a high tech world. All these problems must be addressed and resolved, and it will take decades, minimum.
Second, China has handled its transition away from the dead hand of communism far better than the Soviets did. What ever advantages and disadvantages the Chinese face, they will move forward cautiously, and will gain the advantages of a secure place in an increasingly free world with less trauma than the Soviets experienced, after items in #1 above are resolved, of course.
Posted by scorp on Sep 12, 2005 at 1:20 PM Scorp must share a personal bond with the opinion shaping efforts of the Chinese government. The article says:
“However, some of China’s new media-control plans are focusing more on shaping opinion rather than controlling it. One such plan calls for government operatives to infiltrate Internet chat groups where criticism of the government is rising and improve the Communist Party’s image by posting pro-government propaganda.”
Sounds similar to what scorp has been doing on this site for the last few weeks. Just replace “Communist” with “Fascist” and the paragraph becomes a perfect description of scorp’s behavior.
Posted by Liberal on Sep 12, 2005 at 1:42 PM Rabbit shall ignore the inestimable brilliance of Dr scorp, just long enough to make his own observation upon reading the good article.
The Chinese are an ancient and wise people as a race. They have a few thousand years more of civilization behind them than our lot, (Being Aglo/Celtic stock self)
This means they have as a race earned considerably more respect in the world at large than they have previously been afforded by young upstart nations like yours and mine.
Politics and Human rights in China are not as good as they could be. Nor are they as good as they could be with us. The difference between our two systems in terms of the overral direction it is taking us could not be more different.
Despite periods of overreaction and others of brutality, the Chinese are going forward as a Nation. Their rate of growth in living standards, education, health, technology and industry are second to none in the world.
-----How is your country doing in all these regards? Australia is going backwards in each respect, though not as severely as correspondents suggest USA is.
.....................^^...........Unfortunately since our countries began to reduce freedom and clamp down in the ever increasing fashion we are seeing, things have stopped progressing in regards human rights in China.
Our gross abuses of human rights, international laws and treaties was all the excuse several nations including China used to roll back some of the reforms which seemed to be well under way.
Now Rabbit can assure westerners that the Chinese, while more aware of their own problems than you are about yours, do not require or even wish any help from us. They have not been “helped’ into the world economy, but have traded and dealt with the entire world on its own terms long before the USA was even a glimmer in some pilgrim’s eye.
In fact their trading history and mastership of the art of trading is legendary out in the ‘World’, you occassionally here about. They are not being helped into the 21st century or whatever self satisfying delsuions you clothe yourself with scorp and all Dittoheads. They are here and they got here by themselves.
They seem whats more to be in pretty good shape and getting stronger every day.
So while things are not as good as they could be in China, they are on the up and up.
They were even loosening up on the human rights issues until the USA went and scared everybody and set such a bad example.Rabbit knows many Chinese. Some go to and from China regularly. Rabbit’s brother does business in China often, they are major players in the Western Australian Mining industry and much more besides.
True the regime is snoopy and paranoid, but there is one perspective which should be taken into account by anybody who wants to start criticising them.
China has never been an expansionist state. It does not go around and never has gone around the world attacking others for any other reson than self defence.
Any discussion on this thread which assumes China is in some way a cogent threat to “US” somehow had better be prepared to get Rabbit attacked. They are not an aggressive nation, but they are paranoid about everybody else, so many of whom in China’s history have been inclined to covet what is China’s.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 12, 2005 at 11:39 PM China monitors Falun Gong in Australia, and the Johhny Howhard Governmentk like Australian Governments usually do, does much co-operation and business with China. In fact the Chinese government and the Mafia and Business men who bridge the gap, are all very good friends of ours and Rabbit suspects at certain levels yours.
Rabbit hears they might be keeping Americans on as indentured servants, once they cash in their chips on the USA. Then sharing the loot with your present leaders who are giving it to them on a platter. Be grateful for small mercies. The Chinese are kind masters, compared to what you have now.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 12, 2005 at 11:50 PM scorp tells us:
The entire article is about the communists striving for success, and often failing to be successful.--------This is an interesting observation scorpy, seems the author missed this himself.
I this in contrast to your way of striving for mediocrity and succeeding admirably?
“In fact, since Nixon went to China, the driving force behind our China policy has been to increase China’s economic freedom and performance with the object of increasing personal and political freedom.”
---------Sure Rabbit is that the Chinese do not realise how much they owe their existence and survival on the world stage to America. Next time Rabbit is talkng to some Chinese businessmen visiting their interests in Australia or just visiting, he shall let them know for you scorpy. He is sure they will be very grateful. They are a very polite folk.
“Sweeping change and growth has come to China, and political thought is abrewing. You can see, and sense, the growth of economic freedom and political freedom. (I first visited China in 1984, and have been back several times since. My wife is a Chinese medical doctor.)
----------Wife? Rabbit thought you were a hermaphrodite scorpy.
Two thoughts:
-------------No Rabbit does not think so. One maybe. Not sure even of that.
First, in the 1980s, Japan was growing rapidly, and there was much speculation that Japan might dominate the world economically.
-----------Is that what you were speculating about then scorpy? Interesting. Rabbit went to school with lots of Japanese and thinks they are even more annoying than American tourists, as tourists.
Scorp such an eminently articulated piece of claptrap as the following should speak for itself. But Rabbit likes it.
“"Then Japan reached its limits, and has stagnated for fifteen years. Just now, Koizumi has forced reforms into the calcified Japanese bureaucracy, and, with luck, Japan will now resume a more sustainable growth rate.China has more limits than Japan ever had, and will start reaching those limits at some point soon. China’s limits include too many people, not enough natural resources (water, even), a dysfunctional banking system, a crippled and crippling socialist political system that does not mesh well with the free economic system it is trying to build, and a concentration on low tech manufacture in a high tech world. All these problems must be addressed and resolved, and it will take decades, minimum. “”
------Better than your usual. Sure you didn’t copy that from somewhere?
Those things you refer to as limits are only limited by point of view. many of them, lots of people for example could be turned to strengths. It all depends on point of view. Rabbit is sure Chinese point of view is much less limited than Scorpy’s. You did copy that you sneeky scorpy.
Doesn’t make it gospel though.Second, China has handled its transition away from the dead hand of communism far better than the Soviets did. What ever advantages and disadvantages the Chinese face, they will move forward cautiously, and will gain the advantages of a secure place in an increasingly free world with less trauma than the Soviets experienced, after items in #1 above are resolved, of course.
----------------Of course.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 13, 2005 at 2:30 AM I do not feel relaxed at all about the likelihood of the Chinese Communist Party gaining great economic power, even if it will require decades. That timeframe does not comfort me. A basic cultural characteristic of many Asian societies, not least the Chinese, is to think of long-term plans as having the scope of generations. They certainly have an advantage over quick-gratification-loving cultures like that of America, in which “long-term” just about equates to the length of time a mortgage can be paid off.
I don’t feel relaxed because I consider it quite predictable that in a future time, if China was able to continue its economic successes, a surge of proud nationalism could easily be manipulated by ambitious Chinese leaders anxious to make their mark on history. I imagine a Chinese version of America’s “manifest destiny” period, in which the spreading power and territorial expansion of an energetic and proud civilization was considered to be divinely sanctioned (though not, obviously, by those whose territory was taken, e.g. Mexico). I can also easily imagine a resurrgence in the expansionist ethic of communism, as in the early Cold War period, if China’s CP is able to hold power and demonstrate the power of their system. And it will be the communist system that will get the credit, even if the mechanisms used are of the market.
Imagine a mythologized Mao Zedong used as an icon by future CCP leaders, whose blunders are sanitized for public consumption but whose vision of a power Chinese Communist nation, leading the world into a socialist paradise, inspires a nation of 1.5 billion+ well-fed and confident citizens. He’s a ready-made symbol for future generations. It doesn’t matter what the historical facts will have been, because it’s not difficult to manipulate them. And people want something to follow, they want to be inspired.
Why does this concern me? Because I believe that economic success inspires ambition and appetite in national leaders, not sanguinity or contentedness. I see no reason to think of China’s leaders, present or future, to be immune from this principle.
If China is able to really leave behind its long history of widespread deprivation and misery, in and of itself, it will be an admirable feat and worthy of great respect. But I can’t bring myself to assume that future Chinese leaders will be any less prone to imperialistic dreams than the rulers of any other region of the world have been for the last several millennia. The only way my dismal prediction can be made impossible is if successive generations of Chinese leaders refuse to develop a gigantic military machine with their wealth. If they can demonstrate that level of wisdom, in the “long-term” by Chinese understandings, good. But I certainly don’t see any reason to assume wisdom of that kind from any leadership cadre, Chinese or other. Their record of forced conformity and brutal suppression of those who step out of line is too enduring, as well as too fresh in the world’s memories.
China as hyperpower. Even more scary than the US being one.
Posted by Kuya on Sep 13, 2005 at 2:34 AM Kuya –
I always appreciate your thoughtful posts. I am well aware of the problems China (and we) face, but I am considerably more optimistic about the possible outcomes.
The USA has invested a considerable amount in China’s economic and political freedom, on the grounds that the world will be a better and safer place as the result of this investment. And, in fact, China is becoming more free. At the same time, in order to obtain the benefits of free trade, China is locking itself into things like international agreements, trade negotiations, and commercial contracts. China cannot unilaterally suspend these agreements without losing its markets. Losing its markets would mean the loss of millions of jobs. The only legitimacy China’s overlords have is their ability to deliver peace and prosperity to the people. There are tens of thousands of demonstrations in China each year against corruption and injustice. Hu and crew can’t afford to let this get out of hand.
We must be concerned about China, but we need not be overly alarmed. Totalitarian government is self-limiting. Trying to control a populace is expensive and resource-consuming, leading to inefficiency and corruption. This inefficiency and corruption is a cost borne by the totalitarian state, and the resources thus lost are not available for growth or for more sinister purposes. The Soviet Union went out of business because of this inefficiency and corruption. This was the point Natan Sharansky made in his book, ‘The Case for Democracy’. Sharansky’s book was not theoretical; Sharansky spent a number of years in the Gulag.
I do not see why people do not have more confidence and faith in democracy. Millions have fled tyranny to live in a democratic state, but few have ever gone in the other direction. Millions in Eastern Europe enthusiastically embraced freedom and democracy at the demise of the Soviet Union, and the Rainbow Revolutions attest that this enthusiasm is still alive. Why would the Chinese people be different? It was only a few years ago that the Chinese students built their model of the Statue of Liberty in TienAnMen Square. A bigger threat to democracy is the European socialist and American Liberal indifference to democracy; these perverted souls would rather see George Bush fail than to see democracy succeed in Iraq and in the Middle East.
Times and politics change, but Mao is now a national embarrassment in China. The first time I went into China, I was looking for one of the ubiquitous red enamel Mao button from the Cultural Revolution, but our guide assured me that there were no Mao buttons to be had. Heck, I always wanted a Mao button. Regardless, I found many of the buttons in little roadside stands, and I put one on my cap. At the time I had just come through Las Vegas, and I was wearing a cowboy cap with a logo reading, “Mustang Ranch Quality Inspector”. I got quite a reaction from our guides and the shopkeepers we met, but they really did not get the joke; they were just concerned that I was wearing a Mao button. Concerned or not, they couldn’t criticize Mao, and they couldn’t criticize the crazy American guest that wanted to wear a Mao button.
There is a nostalgia for Stalin in some circles in Russia, like there is a nostalgia (or admiration) for Hitler in some places, but a mass movement for Mao at this point is not in the offing.
Posted by scorp on Sep 13, 2005 at 12:20 PM Kuya
You can do better than that. While your points are fair they fail to take into account the history of the Chinese and their very different culture. The simple historical facts which speaks loudest to Rabbit are as follows
The Chinese are a much more ancient civilization than ours. They were already old and had been defending themselves against invaders long before our countries saw any westerners. The Chinese have not got any history of interfering in world affairs that do not directly concern them. Typical American Paranoia about anything ‘Communist’ is nothing more than that. While communism as it has been practised is not what it is all cracked up to be, will you try and tell Rabbit that Democracy is?
The main point to be taken here is that while Chinese are going forward in all areas, (we gave them the excuse to slow down on human rights), our ‘Democracies’ are going backwards and the resultant fall in our economies, human rights, freedom and security leave us with no moral legs to stand on when trying to locate a mote in the eye of another system.
It is fine for westerners to talk about power and wealth corrupting, and this could be seen as a universal law maybe. The fact remains that while many of China’s leaders have known both over time they have never been inclined to expand their interests beyond their borders.
This does not mean there is anything wrong with them supporting their allies, from attacks by a belligerant west however.
Rabbit is Sorry to say so but he does not accept that Kuya has done more than extrapolate American ideas onto a race who could not be further removed from American ideas.
Like Rabbit said he sees much of the Chinese, they are a fines race of people. While they have a communist system, the people are nevertheless incredibly realistic and very entrepreneurial. They recognise their own ideals much more clearly and their ancient wisdom has long since taught them that to threaten others is to put at risk one’s own ideals. (as defined by Rabbit in another rant)
The thing is unlike our cultures the Chinese are not finding their identity. They do not covet what we have, while they are happy to add material luxury to their lives, they would rather make and earn their own than take ours.
Rabbit has for a long time seen communism as probably the only system which could keep such an enormous Nation on an even keel while surrounded by young, brash and aggressive cultures, all jostling for position.
Kuya, you are too open minded normally to fall into the trap of projecting western values onto a culture who has never given any indication they look at the world the same way as us. Think what Rabbit says and by all means disagree, but the couple of points raised here need to be dealt with because they are history and should have some effect on your argument.
Actually the Chinese government has recently made clear that while they take their defence seriously, they are upgrading and modernising their military, they have no intention of participating in an arms race and that despite quite pugnacious staements from many of the people who hold much more extreme views than you, yet base these on no different information.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 13, 2005 at 7:36 PM Why after thousands of years would the Chinese suddenly decide to become an expansionist state.
Do we think they just took a few thousand years longer to achieve our type of civilization?
Kuya, it should be remembered that we are no longer the white hats in the world. We began to attack sovereign nations because of our own lies, since we began torturing and incarcerating people against Geneva conventions and clamping down with police states on our own people, we don’t seem very credible when talking about ‘Peaceful’ nations who might yet become dangerous if they advance.
Kuya don’t you see what Rabbit means? Who the hell are we to assume anything about others’ intentions?
As for Chinese being a hyperpower, frankly while Rabbit would like that there be none such. The only way one country can remain more powerful than rest is if they take more than their share of the world’s resources. Shame on you, how shortsighted. There is nothing in Chinese history which makes the idea of them being a superpower, any less loathsome than the fact of America having become what it is.
Rabbit knows many people who would feel much more secure about the future if the Chinese replaced the USA as the most powerful military force. They have never talked about empire, never asked for anything which was not theirs and despite the sabre rattling and bombast of the USA have never been drawn into any counterthreats or paranoic arms races.
Kuya China has a long history of being attacked and pillaged by others. They have been attacked and nobody ever made any reparations to them. This is the primary reason they have so much misery and poverty. In fact such an ancient empire would be economically huge today if they had not had so much stolen from them. Do you know what happened to China in WW2?
Rabbit thinks that the fact that China is what it is today, that it is united and peaceful, is already a credit to them.
Now Rabbit suggests that Kuya considers these things carefully because we are both capable of reason. Rabbit has already said that he knows about Chinese personally, they are our neighbors and there is something Americans need to here from one of her last remaining allies, Australia.
The Chinese are our neighbors and we get along very well with them thankyou. If the USA intends to pick a fight with our excellent and honourable Chinese friends, you will be doing so without our puny support. This may seem very little to such a power as the USA but it is significant.
Since we are the only ally you have left who still commands any respect in the world, when you go it without us, you will have become the rabid dog which Rabbit expects will shortly thereafter have to be put down by a world which is fats tiring of Americans telling everybody else how to live..
Get that huge log out of your eyes and see if the world doesn’t look less frightening.
It appears more and more that if there is one thing that all Americans have in common, no matter how enlightened they may be about some things, it seems that FEAR of the rest of the world is constant.
How odd because the rest of the world fears the USA mainly.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 13, 2005 at 7:36 PM Scorp, America did not create China. It did nopt help them out of anything. The Chinese have far more economic power than America, in case you are still living in the twentieth century (you have said so before) things have changed. The Chinese are rapidly catching up to the Japanese in their control of ‘your’ economy. What a weird lot some of you Americans are. Scorp do you even know that the USA is bakrupt and about to collapse economically? The Chinese are probably going to save your asses though you may end up their indentured servants as Rabbit has said.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 13, 2005 at 7:46 PM Other than that Scorp, the Rabbit is in general agreement with you. To your credit you can see more clearly the Chinese situation and Rabbit is inclined to believe this is due to having experienced them directly.
This in itself should be food for thought for Kuya. Rabbit and Scorp actually have similar feelings toward the Chinese Kuya, no doubt because we both know them personally. Says much if one considers there is otherwise very little Rabbit and Scorp may have in common.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 13, 2005 at 7:54 PM Overlooked here is the complicity of corporations in the Chinese government’s crack-down on free speech. For example, read this excerpt from an article by George Monbiot on TomPaine.com:
“In April, Shi Tao, a journalist working for a Chinese newspaper, was sentenced to 10 years in prison for ‘providing state secrets to foreign entities.’ He had passed details of a censorship order to the Asia Democracy Forum and the website Democracy News.
The pressure group Reporters Without Borders (RSF) was mystified by the ease with which Mr. Tao had been caught. He had sent the message through an anonymous Yahoo! account. But the police had gone straight to his offices and picked him up. How did they know who he was?
Last week RSF obtained a translation of the verdict, and there they found the answer. Mr. Tao’s account information was ‘furnished by Yahoo Holdings.’ Yahoo!, the document says, gave the government his telephone number and the address of his office.
So much for the promise that the Internet would liberate the oppressed.”You see, corporations exist to make a profit, and if that means appeasing the powers most likely to ensure that profit is attainable at the expense of fundamental human liberties, then so be it.
More examples from the article:
In 2002, Yahoo! signed the Chinese government’s pledge of “self-regulation”: It promised not to allow “pernicious information that may jeopardize state security” to be posted.
If Chinese users of Microsoft’s internet service MSN try to send a message containing the words “democracy,” “liberty” or “human rights,” they are warned that “This message includes forbidden language. Please delete the prohibited expression.”
Human rights groups allege that Western corporations, including Cisco, have provided the Chinese government with the technology and expertise to install filtering software to allow internet routers to block certain messages.
So much for freedom and capitalism going hand-in-hand. What say you, scorp?
Posted by Liberal on Sep 13, 2005 at 8:31 PM Liberal
Rabbit agrees and it is this “co-operation” to which Rabbit was reffering in Australia. Government and business go very much hand in hand in Oz, (like evrywhere almost) and there does not appear to be anything but support and co-operation by our leaders for all things “officially” Chinese. We too have had arrests of Chinese dissidents with aid of Australian Government, and as mentioned they turn a blind eye to the Chinese spying on these dissidents within our borders. Complaints by Falun Gong have fallen on deaf ears.China was improving it’s human rights situation, really beggining to thaw until about four years ago feels Rabbit. Believes this is due to our tacit acceptance. Our leaders only pay scant lip-service to any criticism of Chinese government since.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 13, 2005 at 9:53 PM Triads influence much in China and they are quite powerful here. Rabbit has heard they have a fully sanctioned headquarters in Canberra.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 13, 2005 at 10:56 PM Hello scorp and Rabbit,
I think my major concerns have less to do with the Chinese people as a culture and more with a sense of forboding about how power and simultaneous economic success seem to affect national leaders across history and in so many regions of the world, all regions I would say. Also, it appears to be all to easy for any set of leaders to galvanize their citizens to action, even if the ends are ignoble or downright evil. scorp, your mentioning of Hitler and Stalin would be cases in point as only the most frequently cited examples, there’s really such a lengthy list. If a prosperous China-of-the-future can get away from that dynamic, I for one would be glad to see it.
Please don’t think I’m saying the Chinese are more prone to evil than any other country. My real view is that people at large can be prone to having their primate aggressiveness triggered by their leaders, if those leaders conceive an agenda that would employ that aggressiveness toward their desired ends. People do really seem to want to be led, I believe, and it also appears at times that many even want their leaders to do their thinking for them. Again, not Chinese folks per se, but all over the world.
However, I will grant that the two of you have more frequent and direct contact with China than I have, the extent of my contact would be with some students and a handful of colleagues in my Asian travels and employment. I’m still deeply suspicious of heavily centralized power and authority, and the Chinese Communist Party still has (and may always have) a monopoly upon that in-country. (Well, actually I’m rather suspicious of authority in general, and maybe that’s what has fueled my sense of forboding: perhaps you’ll agree that power and pride are the most addictive of things, to certain personalities and particularly within certain political cultures that describe themselves as world-leading or world-revolutionizing.
If two such diverse individuals as yourselves counsel greater optimism, I will allow it to get into the mix. Truth is, I hope you’re right. Interesting to see you two on the same page, it’s rather cool. Rare, and cool.
Posted by Kuya on Sep 15, 2005 at 2:06 AM Belatedly added, my forbodings were also triggered by the grip that was tightened upon journalists, as per J. Pocha’s article as well as Liberal’s post above. What are they afraid of?
On a tangent, I asked much the same question about the suppression of flag-draped-coffin images from Iraq and Afghanistan, and most recently the sanctions against photos of the dead of Hurricane Katrina. What are they afraid of?
The fourth estate, perhaps.
Posted by Kuya on Sep 15, 2005 at 7:48 AM Kuya it is easy to understand what you are getting at and Rabbit would agree that power corrupts. Your concerns cannot be discarded out of hand because they are certaninly well supported by history.
So is the Chinese propensity to live in peace with it’s neighbors. This does not deny the reality of freedom and human rights on the ground is far from ideal, as it stands.
The concern for Rabbit is that our own incredibly stupid leaders are going to back China into a corner, and the result of this cannot be good.
In a very real way, we are letting the Chinese people down by ceasing to set an example in these areas. But certainly no more than we ourselves are going to pay for. This is sad to say why although Rabbit has faith in Chinese the future is being shaped by our bunch of Psycho’s in office.
Yeh it’s weird about Scorp but to his credit he has progressed in his reasoning and articulacy. Rabbit does not apologise for the Whacking he got, feeling it may have done him good.
Sorry Scorp, Arrogant Rabbit means well when he says you are clearly a Man, who is in this for the long haul. This is good and Rabbit salutes you.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 15, 2005 at 10:16 PM Rabbit,
China has never been expansionist? Tell that to the Tibetans, Uighurs, Mongolians, and (cough) the Taiwanese. I recommend that you read Ross Terrill’s excellent book “The New Chinese Empire” that analyzes Beijing’s imperial trend quite thoroughly.
If more people in the world truly wish China were the global superpower instead of the US, goodness gracious! That’s fairly depressing- to say the least. To support the empty Mao suits in Beijing over a full-fledged democracy implies either hopeless naivete or a twisted sense of morals.
Posted by MSchi on Sep 25, 2005 at 8:34 AM MSchi
Doesn’t work.
These places all have historical significance in that they either had been traditional Plagues on China, Mongolians for example or they were claimed for one reason or another, with more justification in history than any similar such “European” claims about territory.
The point was not the most critical in Rabbit’s argument. The fact is they do not have a history especially in the last many years of “expanding” their influence.
If you see economic expansion as something inherantly threatening then welcome to the world that America built.
As for such mindless slogans such;
“To support the empty Mao suits in Beijing over a full-fledged democracy”, in the USA is the height of ignorant two dimensional bigotry.There is for a start a VERY large question over any sort of “Democracy “ in the USA today.
It is at least an open debate at the moment, and sunshine, your side is not winning at the moment. The general consensus is that many Americans, with you among there number evidently, would not know a democracy if you had one. Which you don’t. You have the shell of a sort of Autocratic artificial democracy, and what is left is not at all recognisable as a democracy.
Whatever China has, and whatever they are, they are not anywhere near as threatening or as disturbing to world peace and freedom to live our own lives in peace as your band of screeching, self-righteous, hubristic, cowardly, flag waving pack of criminals in expensive suits.
The hide and the affrontary! The USA is the worst imaginable Superpower chicken little, even if we wanted a superpower which frankly we don’t, so how about you just bugger off with your ideas of Empire, and go F##K your Flag.
(Sorry to those Americans, who know who they are, who have a more natural relationship with flags and others)
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 26, 2005 at 4:15 AM GhostRabbit,
re: MSchi’s post:
Sorry, does work. Show me something from China like a constitution or bill of rights and I’ll reconsider my viewpoint. The fact that I’m able to post this without government interference or censorship supports the notion of the USA as a free, open, and democratic society, albeit quite an imperfect one. China will never be able to harness the full potential of its citizens’ intellect in a post-industrial world until the average Chinese Joe Sixpack can write a letter to the editor or post on his blog something like political constructive criticism.
As far as the USA being a danger to the world: Whatever I’ve said over the years in the way of criticizing American tactics in foreign policy does not undermine my belief in the underlying good intentions of said policy. We may be insensitive, heavy-handed, and ignorant in our actions, but we’ve never been malicious. Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot and Mao were malicious in their disregard for basic human rights, but Dubya, as much as I disagree with nine-tenths of what he says and does, cannot be by any stretch of the imagination be labeled malicious.
The case of Tibet is an interesting one. Can you, Rabbit, or anyone else out there, explain to me the specific justificaton for China occupying Tibet? Does Tibet in some screwy way pose a security threat to China? Is the distinct culture of Tibet really some variant of Chinese culture in disguise? Was it something the Dalai Lama said?
Posted by dpocius on Sep 26, 2005 at 1:32 PM Dear foreign friends:
I am a Chinese young man,25 years old. I feel very happy and a little surprise when I read your comments, not only because your abundant knowledges about China, but also because your enthnsiasm about my country. So I write and want to talk with you.
At first, I answer the dpocius′questions, the questions about Tibet.
1.The specific justification for China occupying Tibet is our nation must live and be strong.You must know geopolitics, according to geopolitics it is obviously that there are no security at our sounthwest frontier and no security in our country without Tibet.
2.Does Tibet in some screwy way pose a security threat to China?
No, not in screwy way but in indirect way. When a weak Tibet existed as the situation of emptiness of power between China and the other powerful states,do you think it is a real security threat to china? And these powerful states ,there are kingdom of Dzunger Khan in 18th centry,British in early of 20th centry ,and India, US by now.3.Is the distinct culture of Tibet really some variant of Chinses culture in disguise? No, even in academic view the language of Tibet and the language of Han are not in the same family of languages. The statement which says the culture of Tibet and the culture of China having the same source is just an excuse for state interest.Our state benefit is like any other countries’, I don’t think we need lie for it nowadays.
Ok, dpocius, I have answered your three questions. And now I want to ask you and you American people three questions.
Can you ,or anyone else explain to me the specific justification for US occupying Alta California New Mexico and Texas from Mexico? Because US wanted to protect the independence of the republic of Texas, indeed? Neverthless you American seldom criticize yourselves,but criticize China in very strong way.
So my second question is what is your moral standard, do you have a identical standard?In my opinion, your standard is a double standard. According to your standard,it seems like the cold war is not over, and China is still your enemy.Nevertheless like lots of Chinese young people, what I heard mostly from you American is that US is a friend of Chinese people, She wants to help them to promote democracy and human rights, and she wish China can become a responsible great state and be a real friend of her. This conflict way of doing things perplex me.
And my third question is do you American think it is possible to make friends in this conflict way, do you regard somebody mostly as an enemy when you want to make friends with him in your own country?
Maybe my words disappoint you, but I say these is because I hope our two nations can be real friends in future. On the one hand, our nation is in a critical moment of historic importance and we need more understanding, support and friendship from international community(especially from US) than anytime else. we have lost the opportunity in 1989, so we must cherish the possible opportunities in future very much , so we need more peaceful and friendly international environment than anytime else.
On the other hand, you American, you can image the situation of China in twenty years later, she will be in our rising generation’s hands, and she will change, maybe just like the situation you called“ peacefull evolution”.But we two nations should still not be real friends at that time if you wouldn’t change your minds and treat China as a friend on equal terms. Furthermore, the more important thing is it would not be only a problem but also a danger for us if we still should not be friends indeed twenty years later.
We Chinese people have great admiration for your nation over a long period of time, we admire for your prosperity and democracy,we admire for your wisdom of making right choice in every critical moment of historic importance even more. So we have enough reasons to believe that you can also make the right choice in future.
Posted by abyss238 on Oct 12, 2005 at 2:27 AM Page 1 of 1 pages -
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