In the Spring 2004 issue of Dissent, Georgetown historian Michael Kazin savaged Howard Zinn’s seminal work, A People’s History of the United States, castigating it, among many other barbs, as a “polemic disguised as history.” One of the few concessions Kazin made was his approval of Zinn punctuating “his narrative with hundreds of quotes from slaves and Populists, anonymous wage-earners and… return to article
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Reader Comments (21)Page 1 of 1 pagesMy goodness,If only Mr.Zinn’s book could actually be available to the general public,maybe our somnabulent,tv consuming masses would be aroused enough to get up off their brainwashed asses and start to learn about how we have been sold down the river for generations.Unfortunately,even if the book was easily accessible,there probably wouldn’t be enough literate young people to read it,thanks to our public education system.
Posted by Dr.D on Sep 17, 2005 at 3:58 AM Proposal -
Most everyone has a family history. It would be interesting to see a short narrative from each poster on this thread dating back to their grand-parents’ time. The topic would be something of significance or interest that directly related to the poster and his/her family. I will be posting shortly.
Posted by scorp on Sep 17, 2005 at 11:26 AM I miss the new deal.
Don’t look for a PBS special on Zinn’s work ala the “Civil War,” and similar productions.
With Bush’s handpicked PBS board, they cut back on NOW with Bill Moyers and accuse the network of liberal bias. Brack. Even Frontline is a tiny bit tamer. Anybody else notice that in past couple years? Sad but I hope temporary.
Anyway, I miss the new deal and the notion of peace and plenty. I miss my privacy and sense of well being. I miss knowing that the courts would be more or less a solid bulwork against any serious violation of my rights. I am more fearful. There is as we speak a frightful lack of guarantees with the patriot act and other erosions of rights and the courts tipping to the right.
As far as history, who is to say what is important through time? This is what I like about Zinn’s history. It knows this. Zinn has chosen important voices, important facts.
Posted by marge on Sep 17, 2005 at 3:19 PM Marge –
>> I miss the new deal. <<
You are a real masochist, aren’t you?
FDR was first elected in 1932 because of economic problems, including the high unemployment rate. Eight years later, on the occasion of his third election to the presidency, the unemployment rate was still a sky-high 15%. Contrast this with Reagan’s rapid solution to the Carter Catastrophe, and Bush’s even more rapid solution to the Clinton Bubble.
>> ... and the notion of peace and plenty. <<
The Great Depression ended when WWII started; by 1943, unemployment was down to 2%. There was no plenty in the first eight years of FDR, and the only plenty we had during the remainder of the Roosevelt administration was ordnance; we had plenty of ships, planes, tanks, and guns, producing plenty of dead terrorists. Then, when the terrorists were all dead, and only then, did we have peace and plenty. That lasted until the Democrats got us into Korea, and the Democrats were not willing to finish the job. And then the Democrats got us into Vietnam, and the Democrats were not willing to finish the job.
Please provide us with a list of the serious violation of your rights, and who is doing the violating. I will personally take care of it.
Posted by scorp on Sep 17, 2005 at 4:26 PM Sounds like /great/ material for a Ken Burns documentary; even the crowning one of a career.
Posted by yowzah on Sep 17, 2005 at 9:30 PM thanks for your conservative arguments on a liberal or leftist mag site, scorp. Blaming Democrats for unemployment seems a little far fetched as income inequality and unemployment grew during Reagan’s and Bush’s administrations, but not during Carter’s nor Clinton’s. More jobs are created during the FDR, and other Democratic regimes than during Republican regimes.
I’ll agree though that FDR was a conservative reformer from the privleged class. And don’t think for a moment that prominent Republicans didn’t Push Democratic presidents to get tough on Communism… thus the useless wars of korea and vietnam…and now Iraq (our CIA supported Saddam in his killing of democrats and ‘commies’ in Iraq.) Seems that not getting in wars with so call communist nations is better…thus China becoming our nation of low cost imports…. and gradual liberalisation.. (probably our biggest trading partner…like it or not) whereas stamping out leftist movements leads to poverty such as in present Haiti, Central America, much of Africa.
Give FDR credit. If it wasn’t for his early denunciation and support for crushing Right Wing extremism in both Japan and Germany…now were’d we be???? Oligarchic Republicanism, with a few owning everything and most of us working for peanuts as in the Republican caused Depression?
Posted by datadave on Sep 17, 2005 at 10:49 PM Interesting quesion.—-
“If this were state media, how would it be any different?”
Scorp your first post above showed once again that there is a light inside you trying to get out.
The second post again showed that you are still buried under so much information that you are unable to form opinions based on facts. Your opinions stand alone and you will selectively use facts or even alter facts if that is the only way to give your opinions any basis.
You are studiously avoiding answering the quesion Rabbit has been asking you across several threads now, which is how does the Bushler Badget deficit of $550 Billions and growing fast, compare with the Clinton Surplus of $523 Billions, make the Repugs better economic managers than Dems. Rabbit maintains that both parties suck of course and is not suggesting Democrap will be much different than Repugs in the long run.
Scorp it is entirely possible that Rabbit who is not especially familiar with economics is reading too much into these figures and there is some reason why they mean that Bushler is leading a very competant government. Scorp is being invited to explain it to this worthless Rabbit. It is understandable that you fear Rabbit may bite you, but he will not do so without fore warning, promise.
There is a question though. What happened to Karl Rove? You seem so different from the original Scorp, more articulate, more thoughtful (a bit) and minus the lame slogans.
Is this because you have changed, or are you a new Scorp?Rabbit is seeking to prise you away from your desperate hold on ideology so you can look a bit closer at what you are defending. If you can rise above the program about China because you have seen facts on the ground which tell a different story, why is it so hard to believe that facts may exist which show the Repug line you accept is complete rubbish?
What has the present Junta done in five years which was successful? Enough interpretations of history, how about an issue from contemporary times which gives a basis for faith of any kind in the Bushler Junta.
If you can. If you cannot then why should anyone accept that you are really a person with valid opinions, and not just a government shill trying to make it look like someone still supports them?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 18, 2005 at 11:53 PM My other post has dissappeared. It talked about the progressive movement which was capped off by the New Deal.
I suggested we read “how the other half lives,” by Jacob Riis, in the 1890s.
Well Scorp. The Progressive movement and the new deal expressed certain social values that Reagan and bush policies never did.
Those new deal values carried on for decades. Duh, we keep talking about Bush trying to dismantle the rest of it, so you can’t say it hasn’t lingered. When SS goes, so goes the presence of the values of the society that created it. That’s what I mean. Did that bring me peace and plenty? Yes.It was a symbol of caring for each other.
as far as you taking care of any violation of my rights, I doubt you can, but I am curious, how would you propose to do that?
And what is with the patronizing comments? I am suspoicious of that.
Posted by marge on Sep 19, 2005 at 1:13 AM Earlier on this thread, I proposed that poters write a short family-history narrative in keeping with this article. This is my offering.
My Great-Grandfather’s Moustache Cup and Murder
When I got out of the Army and went back to school, I let my hair grow and I grew a handlebar moustache. It had a full curl, like a longhorn’s, and it measured a full six inches from tip to tip. That was a fun moustache, always good for comment and conversation.
Some years later, my mother’s cousin gave my Great-Grandfather’s moustache cup to my mother. Cousin Alice gave the cup to my mother as a family heirloom, and my mother gave it to me, probably because I was the only person in the family who had grown a moustache recently. The cup was white china with red and yellow roses on one side, with a floral motif trim around the outside rim.
Alice had some medical problems and traveled to Kansas City for treatment at a big medical center. In the parking lot of the center, Alice was assaulted, knocked down, and her purse was stolen. Alice required treatment for her injuries, and on returning home, Alice was subject to headaches and seizures, and soon died.
Some time later, Alice’s identification and credit cards were traced, and a suspect was arrested. The Dallas police tried to contact Alice as a witness, but Alice was dead. Uh-oh. What was originally assault and robbery was now murder. So the murderer ended up with 10 to 20, and I ended up with a moustache cup.
Posted by scorp on Sep 19, 2005 at 2:16 AM Scorp becomes curiouser and curiouser.
Some not so secret history:
——————By Patrick Meloy
Sept 11, 2005
“After WWII, Europe lay in ruins. The United States instituted the Marshall Plan where the US loaned massive amounts of money to European nations with the condition that goods and services be purchased from the United States. It was a great success; Europe was quickly able to rebuild its infrastructure and industry while US companies made fortunes supplying Europe’s needs. Because so many countries had so many US dollars, they ended up using them to purchase goods and services from other countries as well - including oil from the Middle East. In fact, two energy exchanges, the International Petroleum Exchange (IPE) in London, and the New York Mercantile Exchange (NYMEX) emerged as the only places to trade energy products and everything was priced in US dollars. In the 1970s, after the US made deal with Saudi Arabia, virtually the only currency you could use to purchase oil was the US dollar. This made the Greenback the dominant currency in the world, used for most (Western) trade and all energy purchases. This was a great deal for the United States - the value of the US dollar gained strength rapidly and they could afford to print huge sums of money without risk of devaluing their currency. Most of the newly printed money ended up offshore, in the vaults of central banks around the world that needed it for trade and energy.Due to Free Trade, Globalization, and Reaganomics, American manufacturing fled to low-wage countries in search of higher profits. American output fell; unemployment rose, and the Federal government started borrowing madly to maintain spending levels; at the same time, their ability to pay shrank. America is now in a worse economic position than that of either Brazil or Korea when those countries’ economies melted down. The United States has an advantage that neither of those countries had though, massive amounts of their own currency sitting in other countries’ central banks collecting dust. America was able to borrow back its own currency from a multitude of countries that were happy to have their reserves earning interest instead of just laying around. This process of printing money for use outside the country and then having it come back as investments is known as “Recycling the Petro Dollar”.
Most of the world now realizes that the main reason for the USA to invade Iraq was to take its oil. What most governments, but few citizens, know, is that the rush to war was due to Saddam Hussain’s committing the high crime of accepting Euro dollars for oil under the “Oil for Food” program. While oil sales from Iraq were minimal due to UN sanctions, the act of defiance did not go unnoticed. Iran, Venezuela, and North Korea all started to dump portions of their US dollar reserves, and OPEC itself received European Union representatives who gave a presentation on the advantages of using the Euro currency for oil sales. The EU today is actually a larger market than the USA. It has more people and more money, and uses more oil than the United States. As OPECs largest single customer, it makes sense to use their currency. With Europe posing a major threat to the hegemony of the US Greenback, the USA decided it had to do something drastic to show OPEC that it would not allow a switch to the Euro. This is why; shortly after Iraq’s conversion to the Euro in late 2000, the USA used the excuse of 9/11 to invade Iraq”
............^^..............
http://www.vivelecanada.ca/article.php/20050916054129788
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 19, 2005 at 3:31 AM The only reason Scorp would avoid answering the Budget Surplus/Deficit question for so long is that he has no answer, or so it would seem.
.............................
It saddens Rabbit that anyone should be unable to fit a critical fact into their beliefs yet fail to re-consider their beliefs on such basis.Surely you don’t wish to be seen as having run away from an issue like this Scorp.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 19, 2005 at 3:41 AM There will be a Public Television version of Howard Zinn’s book A People’s History of the United States.
It is begining production and hopefully will air in early 2007. I’m one of the producers involved on the project.
www.peopleshistory.org
As you can imagine, corporations and other donors are not rushing to fund a documentary series that tells stories of resistance and struggle.
That’s why we need your help. Please tell everyone you know to visit our website, learn more about the program and contribute so that more people can be exposed to this history and thie inspiring people.
www.peopleshistory.org
Thank you,
Lorne Lieb
Producer
The Independent Production Fund
Posted by Lornelieb on Sep 29, 2005 at 1:06 PM Marge - are you the same as Margaret?
I miss Margaret on here.
Posted by Liz on Sep 30, 2005 at 2:14 PM Scorp - SO - a second cousin of yours dying as the result of an assault gives you the justification to be a right-wing Bush apologist and general ahole??
OK - HAVE I GOT A STORY FOR YOU!!
It’s about my cousin - MY FIRST COUSIN, this time, in MY case! About a woman who I knew reasonably well, though only on the strength of having spent a few brief parts of holidays with her. And she died before her time as well. And I really liked her. She wasn’t that much older than me - about 10, 12 years. Out of all my cousins she was my favourite except for one.
MY EUROPEAN COUSIN - HER ECONOMIC MURDER
I have (actually, more, HAD, as the more close relatives are all dead now, since the end of the 90s, they died of natural causes… I think I’ve got about one first cousin left - who I like that is) relatives from my mother’s side in the eastern part of the Federal Republic of Germany, what was the former East Germany (GDR).
The cousin I am talking about was named Kornelia. Cousin Connie was rather a high achiever, in terms of her own country’s limited economy: she was a radiographer and her husband also worked only I forget as what; and they had one child, a girl.
She worked at the local hospital in Weimar; for the GDR’s pretty efficient (though not well-paid) and very comprehensive health service; rather like Cuba’s, if you want a comparison.
Anyway, she was an ambitious and hardworking woman, and no doubt was always in hope of promotion, as such driven souls usually are!!
So, when East Germany joined the Federal Republic (West Germany) in 1990, everyone there was on the whole really positive and excited about it, as well as apprehensive… it was seen as the occasion for new opportunities, though most people also knew, I believe, that some of their old security would be at risk - mostly for the Communist Party functionaries, they hoped!!
Incidentally, I think that the most exciting moment of all recent history for Germans, “Ossis” and “Wessis” alike (those terms should be self-explanatory) was when the Berlin wall fell in November 1989 - they were dancing in the street! East Germans, especially, were very frustrated, because they weren’t allowed to TRAVEL, you see… they had salaries, they had money (not so much to buy, though) but they couldn’t go on holiday to anywhere but the Communist “satellite states”, or, maybe Russia (but not many of them wanted to go there!!) Those tired of holidays in Czechoslovakia or Poland fancied France and Spain - like anybody else in Europe!! And of course West Germany. They just wanted a chance to SEE things, experience things… Many of the younger people took that chance, as soon as the Wall was breached. They went over to see West Berlin… and some of them didn’t come back. Some, of course, immediately loaded up their “Trabis” and took off to find factory jobs in West Germany… another cousin of mine did that and he was right to be amongst the first exodus, with hindsight…
But of course, if you work as a radiologist for the local hospital, you’re not likely to just TAKE OFF, are you… unless of course you get an offer of a job in the same capacity in the West - and there were problems, with East German qualifications being accepted by the West, though their education was excellent. This is an example of the usual bureaucratic methods of exclusion.
Posted by Liz on Sep 30, 2005 at 3:22 PM cont….
So, Cousin Connie - who is actually the FOCUS of my personal history lesson in amongst the historic stuff - she stayed with her job at the hospital in Weimar. To start with, everything was OK. MORE than OK; promising. She kept her job, the hospital was fine… this was all in 1990/91. She even took advantage of the opportunity to travel; the hospital sent several of their staff on short sabbaticals - and guess where she got to go! Yes, AMERICA, and Walt Disney World in Florida… to an East German that must have seemed like a dream come true, because America was something they had some previous knowledge of for years… but only through sneakily-watched broadcasts of dubbed American shows on West German television!!She was very excited about her trip - I remember a phone call she made, to me and my mother. It was probably the last time I spoke to her - that phone call she made after her special funded trip to America. “Dieser Walt Disney World, das ist nicht nur Mikki Maus”, she said to me… she was going on about how she went to the Epcot centre and the marvels she saw there, Germans love technology as you may assume.
And everything was going so swimmingly for a while. BUT - the honeymoon period, in Germany, up until and just after their official reunification date in October 1990, was short. Things started to go wrong after that. Factories closed and all sorts of people lost their jobs, in symphony orchestras, everything - all sorts of really talented (middle-class!!) people were just set adrift. The East Germany economy just went haywire - rather like that in Russia, actually, only maybe not quite as bad, (no Ossi Mafia) but not far off - THAT of course is an example of the wonderful prosperity and human happiness the “free market” brings!! And, to be honest, that part of the country still hasn’t recovered or reached anywhere near West German levels of prosperity to this day. The region just has a lot of unemployed people and skinheads taking things out on immigrants, period.
Back to our narrative: Sometime in 1991, I don’t know when, the hospital in Weimar started to shed lots of their staff, including the ones they had initially made all sorts of promises to and sent on fancy foreign trips, etc. My first cousin Kornelia lost her job. She had to go cleaning toilets - cleaning toilets!!! Her marriage suffered - I heard with hindsight.
Again, sometime, I believe in late 1991, MY COUSIN TOOK HER OWN LIFE. It was her husband who found her hanged in her own home.
Posted by Liz on Sep 30, 2005 at 3:23 PM cont….
I didn’t find this out until 1992, because when I asked my mother originally, what was happening with her sister’s daughter, my mother said something like: “I was afraid you’d ask - I’m sorry, she’s no longer with us, she had a car crash in her old Trabant…. you know these East German cars aren’t very reliable…”(I knew that “old Trabant” quite well - I had traveled in it.)
Well, to start with, my mother lied to me - as was often her wont, to soften a blow. (The Trabant was innocent!)
Then, when I brought the subject up a few months later, my mother confessed what was nearer to the truth - that she’d suddenly lost her job, they’d laid off hospital staff for no rational reason (except to get rid of people! No doubt some Roger-Smith-style Western fine accountants advised the eastern public concerns), she’d worked for a few months in a lowly job which she was ashamed of (“oh, so that’s why she was no longer in touch”, I said) and that one day she couldn’t stand it any more and had been found hanged, verdict: suicide… my mother also made dark allegations of domestic violence once the family lost one of its sources of income, but I don’t know if that was true or just my mother’s imagination.
I’ve never in fact been back to East Germany since my last stay there in 1988; so I haven’t seen in person the “changes” in Weimar; my mother did, but that was after Connie’s death.
SO. Scorp. Repuglicans like YOU are always going on about how your distant cousin-twice-removed or a friend of a friend was killed by a mugger (preferably evil and black, no doubt.)Well. You should realise that ECONOMIC DEPRIVATION AND ECONOMIC ABANDONMENT kills a lot more people than a few individual criminals ever did. People in former industrial towns of the U.S, like Detroit and Flint, Michigan will certainly understand what I mean. BUT - think of Europe - think of all those formerly “Communist” states - the ones with pretty good economies and high levels of social provision - such as East Germany - think of how your precious free market stiffed them and how many lives were lost through despair. (Yes, and through crime, drugs and violence.)
Look at what you did to East Germany.
Look at what you did to Russia.
Buck Fush!!!! (1&2, and Reagan’s ghost with them.)
Anyone else got something to comment here?? Scorp, you asked for it.Marge? Rabbit??
Posted by Liz on Sep 30, 2005 at 3:24 PM Liz, I am sincerely sorry about your cousin.
I am sincerely sorry about the 5+ million Ukrainians that died in the Collectivization. I am sincerely sorry about the 18 million that died in the Gulag, and the thirty million who died in the Great Leap Backward, and those that died in the Cultural Revolution (including my wife’s Grandmother, who, old and blind, was thrown out of her home and starved to death), and Cambodia, and Vietnam, and Iraq, and Rwanda, and Zimbabwe, and Darfur.
I am sorry that the peoples of Russia and the countries of the former Soviet Union were traumatized by socialism, and that the Russians have sickness and alcoholism and a dying population.
We know how to prevent political murder and economic poverty, and how to build democracy. That is why I am a Conservative. Why in the hell aren’t you helping us?
Posted by scorp on Oct 1, 2005 at 3:54 AM ...........................^^............................
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 5, 2005 at 3:41 AM Reading and thinking LIZ. Rabbit lived in Scandinavia for six years almost from 1987…......I have some stories to tell, shortly…....................This is to let you know Rabbit is here among the grass yet…......................
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 5, 2005 at 4:39 AM Yeh Scorp, and one day you’ll be sorry for the peoples of Iraq and Iran and Syria and maybe the whole Middle east, or maybe you’ll be sorry for all the people in the world, and maybe you won’t Scorp, maybe by then there won’t be anyone left to be sorry for, except yourself.
############### with ########### and ############
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 5, 2005 at 9:07 AM SCORP, Rabbit is going to come back later and Jam this up your nose….
“We know how to prevent political murder and economic poverty, and how to build democracy. That is why I am a Conservative. Why in the hell aren’t you helping us?”
Right now Rabbit needs to count to ten a few times over before posting after reading Scorps Scat.
There are a few things Rabbit would gladly help you do Scorpy, but Killing, Looting and Raping innocent people is not one of them.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 5, 2005 at 9:12 AM Page 1 of 1 pages -
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