White House Press Spokesman Scott McClellan told reporters in response to questions about the devastating havoc wreaked by Hurricane Katrina, “This is not a time for politics.” But with New Orleans now underwater, hundreds—if not thousands—dead and tens of thousands in desperate need of food, shelter and water, the natural question is: What could the federal government have done to lessen… return to article
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Reader Comments (187)The Army Corps of Engineers official on MSNBC last night actually had the unique insight to call the levees “a success,” because they only broke in one spot. Nothing changes these guys.
This has been, admittedly, harder to watch than most of our daily abominations. I’m not quite sure if it’s the abject incompetence, like FEMA just becoming cognizant that refugees were actually in the convention center for 4 days without receiving aid, or that these are the first scenes of footage of poor America I’ve seen on TV since Springer was on primetime, or just watching the unfolding of a series of bad, bad luck (the evacuation bus overturning, that plant exploding, gas prices topping $5.80 in one station, etc.).
Perhaps that’s it - the series of bad luck. It’s eerie. A number of the haplessly uneducated and forlorn victims have been calling this “biblical.” I’m not so faithful; but I do believe that chance favored the prepared mind. We have known for decades that levees and dams are unnatural and dangerous, and that destroying vegetation on barrier islands to build homes is downright suicidal. We have known for centuries of the inequality between suburban (and apparently photogenic) White America and the lower colored caste that keeps the system working. We have known since the days of Henry Ford and George Washington Carver that fossil fuel is a faulty, expensive, inefficient and toxic energy source.
But foresight hasn’t exactly been a buzzword in this country. It doesn’t seem to be a part of our national character. It looking more and more, to quote that Mississippi Delta blues song, if it wasn’t for bad luck, we’d have no luck at all.
But I’m a believer in the healing power of storms. Short of supernatural wrath, I think this hurricane has unearthed epidemics hidden under the silt of American bullshit for far too long. As one inspiring victim - who lost his home and everything in it - said today: “This is an opportunity to start again. We can either fritter away our time or we can do something with this life.” That means you, too, Army Corps of Engineer guy.
Posted by rocco on Sep 3, 2005 at 1:44 AM It is about time someone draws this line on a regular news blog.
HAARP - HIGH FREQUENCY ACTIVE ARORAL RESEARCH
HIGH FREQUENCY - 1 GIGA WATT OF MICROWAVE that can be pointed at the ionosphere in a pinpoint location causing it to actually bend outwards towards space. Causing a LOW PRESSURE SYSTEM in the lower atmosphere.
ACTIVE - OUR LEADERS are actively changing the arora to “record their ability” to effect our weather.
RESEARCH - No…. WARFARE
bottom line… in alaska there is a multi acre grid of telephone poles that have a huge net streched accross. The net sends microwaves into the ionoshere… the ionoshere bends outward and a low pressure system is created and can be controled through the movement of the microwave pinpoint.
Remote control HURRICANE
Instill fear in the people and you can control them.
Build a city where poor and non-white are dependant on public transportation… create a disaster in waiting with shoddy levees… evacuate the white rich folks. point the microwave. genocide.
Sri Oracle
Posted by sri oracle on Sep 3, 2005 at 2:56 AM To All Libertarians, Neo-Cons, and Similarly Minded Selfish People:-
Hurricane KATRINA is a lesson in point why “private initiative” and “faith-based charities” and all that nonsense DO NOT WORK and ARE NOT ADEQUATE… not in anything but the smallest of local emergencies, they’re not!
Bush keeps yabbering on about how people should donate to the Red Cross and Catholic Charities. THAT’s not going to cover it!! It will take ages for the donations to be processed, for a start! Meanwhile, people are still starving, thirsting, dying without medicine and waiting to be rescued from the tops of homes in many areas.
FEDERAL AID. FEDERAL AID. FEDERAL AID AND FAST, is the only way in which the bleeding wound in the US left behind by Katrina can be staunched! And as for the rebuilding… yup. That’s going to take a LOT MORE FEDERAL AID!
They can’t just write off a whole city in the US as if it were Babylon or Atlantis, so won’t that just annoy the conservative types who want to “starve the beast”?? Of federal funding.
Anyway. Large natural disasters are a precise illustration of WHY “private” this and that, “compassionate conservatism”, and sheer greedy individualism DO NOT WORK and ARE NOT ADEQUATE TO MEET SOCIETY’S NEEDS.
This applies to DISASTER PREVENTION equally as well, if not more. New Orleans needed levees that would stand up to a Category 5 hurricane, and more. Studies for years proved this. The local politicians and the federal ones couldn’t be bothered to invest; so the city only had Level 3 ones, which broke open. What should the scientists do now - scream “Told you so”? They are. WHEN are the politicians going to listen?
One “good thing” about this disaster is that America’s poor are finally coming to light in the corporate media… and so is the skin colour of most of those people. About time.
Hugo Chavez the Venezuelan socialist would have done much better than the American authorities if HE were governor of Louisiana!SOCIALISM rules OK - it’s not rocket science!!
Posted by Liz on Sep 3, 2005 at 3:20 AM The above two posts by rocco and sri oracle are pretty good! I wonder what will happen when the Bushie and other con-nuts find this article and board?
But, you know, sri: I know a bit about HAARP and am VERY unhappy about it! But - seriously - unlike the Twin Towers thing… *would* the US spooks REALLY want to cause a hurricane in New Orleans and the lower reaches of the Mississippi? Floods always cost MILLIONS if not BILLIONS to clean up after - they had this problem writ a bit smaller when the Mississippi flooded in its higher reaches in the 90s. Heaps of compensation had to be paid to farmers and so on.
And with New ORLEANS… you get the problem that most of the oil industry is down there! If they can’t put it right again soon, then it could turn into a 1973 situation, with queues at petrol stations nationwide… and bring down the Bush government. Discredit the entire political establishment in fact. Does he/they REALLY want that??
(Say yes - then we who watch worldwide will see the entertaining spectacle of the bastard’s recall!)
Posted by Liz on Sep 3, 2005 at 3:29 AM Oh, and at LEAST it hit the south. Alabama and Mississippi as well as Louisiana! THAT will teach them to vote for Bush!! Or, for that matter, to trust in God.
Posted by Liz on Sep 3, 2005 at 3:31 AM *would* the US spooks REALLY want to cause a hurricane in New Orleans and the lower reaches of the Mississippi?
-Liz
Yes. Call it Nazi. Call it bilderberg. Call it skull and bones. Call it satan. Call it what you will.
It is about power.
It is about creating dependency upon a heirarchy.
“FEDERAL AID. FEDERAL AID. FEDERAL AID AND FAST, is the only way in which the bleeding wound in the US left behind by Katrina can be staunched!” - rocco
That is exactly what they want you to think.
They engineered the problem.
Now you fear.
Now you’re controlled.
THE TRUTH…
Exodus - Movement of Jah people.
Get to high ground. Farm. Don’t rely on big brother… his power grid. his power structure.
I’ve walked across Manhattan all the way to paterson, NJ in a day.
My brothers in NO need to remember the Dirty Dozen Brass Band “My feet can’t fail me now”
The system is breaking down. You’re watching it happen.
Posted by sri oracle on Sep 3, 2005 at 3:57 AM Rabbit too is waiting for them to turn up, come and get it you mangy muts. Come and tell us how it is all our fault for not supporting POTUS, who really is doing a great job, but its hard with all them there black looters runnin about shootin at brave people tryin ter help em.
Luckily Rabbit doesn’t have to worry about being called unpatriotic, so he should be safe from that most grievous attack they could otherwise launch,
In anticipation of the apologists for the biggest ongoing clusterfuck in modern history, the Government of the USA, let Rabbit offer the following as a sort of welcome mat. Wipe your feet and come in side babies. Rabbit has something to say to you.
My Opinion.
by RabbitSome Americans are the biggest wack jobs this Australian has ever seen.
You are arguing about whether or not to re-build New Orleans while the place is still in the throes of catastrophe and the worst administration in history is screwing the thing up so badly that the death toll which could clearly have been limited to a few hundred with real leadership, is probably going to go beyond ten thousand. Most of those people are yet to die, but your country has become so enfeebled by an overun of blind panic stricken, cringing, hubris that it is going to stand by wringing its hands in dismay, repeating hollow patriotic slogans while they die. I predict that very soon the military is going to start shooting, massacres will occur, they will probably be able to rush four times as many helicopter gunships to the area for the purpose and they’ll get a budget of a few billion to carry out the necessary “work”. Hell they’ll probably be able to get the lot in place and ready to start shooting within four hours or less. Just watch them, which of course you will. Then of course you’ll be explaining to each other why it was a reasonable response since those evil looters were just out of control.
So far most of the looting I’ve seen has involved people getting Nappies, canned foods, sanitary items. They look like people trying to survive to me. They are your own countrymen and your country seems to be abandoning them, label them looters and terrorists, then shoot the lot of them. Go ahead and proove me wrong, please!
You lack any credible leadership. What you have is a pack of confirmed thugs and psychopaths devotedly looting your once great nation. They are breaking the back of your military in a war of conquest for their oil and zionist handlers. They rob from the budget of your emergency services and cutback on planned adequate preparations against such a disaster, all documented. They have sent a large portion of your civil defense, your national guard off to fight this war where they are poisoning the same forces with Nuclear Waste, (not to mention innocent Iraqi’s who might once have at least felt pity for the Americans suffering) and trying to sell the idea as Sexy. When in truth it is a war crime of the first magnitude.
Where are the national guard? Where are the extra helicopters they control? In Baghdad strafing innocent Iraqis in case you haven’t being paying attention. By the way don’t be too surprised if the world doesn’t have too much sympathy to offer this time around, this is largely seen as self inflicted, even if by mismanagement. Our sympathy is also kind of distracted by the carnage your troops are wreaking upon the Iraqis every day. There is only so much sympathy to go around sometimes. Oh expect our leaders to make sympathetic noises, they have to don’t they. But the hearts of the people will not be in it. Sorry mates, but the last five years have seen a lot of water under the bridge and we just don’t see you the same as we used to. So sad for the victims as usual are the most innocent.
Posted by Rabbitvoz on Sep 3, 2005 at 4:19 AM Are you in, my little munchkins?
One of your number is already doing his patriotic duty. The following is by a poster on this site on another thread. He is one of you, he has clearly said everything you are all about to say, and as you will see he knows what to do in the situation.
“
As far as the New Orleans situation — I should be spending less time on the computer and more at the TV. This is the worst possible handling of a natural catastrophe I have ever seen.These poor people are in a survival mode. Like a wounded animal they will even attack someone who is trying to help. This is totally understandable — we are all just a few meals short of this same response.
After listening to the Mayor of New Orleans this morning I hate to think of what will happen if the terrorists hit us with a dirty bomb. We have no training. No evacuation plans. No defense.
Posted by whattheheck on September 2, 2005 at 8:56 AM
So far the terrorists are busy using your homeland security to throw Dirty Bombs at the Iraqis, and depriving. I don’t think they intend even to use DU when they start the massacres, they’ll just machine gun them from the air, using helicopters which are being kept in reserve for the purpose, which is why btw, there don’t seem to be too many to go around for rescue operations.
Oh was it not those terrorists you meant?
What others are there?
Posted by Rabbitvoz on Sep 3, 2005 at 4:28 AM “What we had in New Orleans is a growing disaster: The hurricane hit, that was one disaster; then the levees broke, that was another disaster; then the floods came; that became a third disaster.”
- George W. Bush
Posted by Rabbitvoz on Sep 3, 2005 at 4:37 AM Come on you Bush lovers, where the hell are you now that the PRESIDENT needs your support? The terrorists are attacking! Quick, quick some traitors are at it, slandering the POTUS. Putting the troops in danger, damaging confidence in the economy. Get ya guns out boys they’re everywhere.
My god what’s that, some of the faithful are faultering, they are shocked, suddenly a new thought dawns like a brilliant ray of light. But it is blinding, it hurts, take it away.
But no, you can’t keep the light out, it has already shone light on things you never knew were with you in the darkness, all along. You can never go completely back now. The awakening begins with a jolt. It is over in a flash, the despair begins almost immediately as you recognise this hithertoo safe room is in reality a jungle with many dark and frightening places and things. You know at the same time that you must now keep the light on, you would never want to live in this place with darkness again.
If you are one of the many who will be having a complete paradigm shift at this time, take heart that Rabbit understands, he loves you and always did. No, Rabbit does not understand the process from experience but has helped many others over the moment of realisation before. Rabbit never was silly enough to have bought the bull. Not for thirty years at least.
Its nice no longer to be a minority though.
Posted by Rabbitvoz on Sep 3, 2005 at 4:49 AM “You lack any credible leadership.” - Rabbitvoz
Truth.
Let me step in.
1) Eat organic food.
2) Never stay in bed too long. Stay up late reading, get up early to feed the family.
3) Read scripture, self help, and anything on the subject of wisdom. I highly recommend I Ching, Bhagavad Gita, Sun Tzu, and Tao Te Ching. Keep a library of reference.
4) Store everything in glass jars or earthenware. (Alchemist)
5) Have tenacious Will with single minded Attention.
7) Act in truth as the instrument of your higher self.
8) Research.
9) Plant trees.
10) Drink pure water.
11) Low consumption. No eating out. Electric bill under $30. no hot water, etc.
12) Recognize when best to be slave and best to be Master.
13) Look out for the ultimate happiness of others. Deny children candy, etc.
14) I work as a carpenter with wood and nails. Right livelihood as the Buddha puts it.
15) Seek only work, never its fruit (Bhagavad Gita)
16) Have the best tools you can get your hands on. Yet know that you can get the job done without those tools.
17) Avoid all propaganda and marketing. (No TV, packaging thrown out (recycled) at date of purchase on everything, no radio, avoid “commercial” WebPages with popups and flashing adds, no wandering around the mall, have a disinterest in politics, etc. )
18) Listen to classical music, chants, instrumental, etc. Avoid music that disturbs the chittam.
19) Meditate. Pray. Sit in silence.
20) Spend plenty of time outdoors.
21) Avoid cities.
22) Grow food.
23) Avoid petrochemicals. (use less gas each week, remove things one by one from your home made of plastic, choose not to have coffee if a Styrofoam cup is the only option, etc.)
24) Always consider the metaphysics of your choices. The mahogany piano is beautiful, but so was the chunk of rainforest it was made from.
25) Be honest
26) Set wheels in motion
27) Be mindful of and act in accordance with your Strengths, Weaknesses, Opportunities, and Threats (SWOT analysis)
28) Love is free giving
29) Anything can be accomplished with time, persistence, and purpose.
30) If you do not know a word, look it up… then get to know it.
31) Deny gifts that you do not need.
32) Accept others faults yet strive for personal perfection.
33) Harm none.
34) Exercise, get your heart rate up, stretch, yoga, etc.
35) Visualize your future.
36) Set goals and objectives. Make “To Do” lists.
37) When you have performed magic, let no one know lest they are involved or are an apprentice.
38) Be an anonymous angelRabbitvoz there is a difference between the America the world interacts with via “The Political Corporation” and the patriots kept silenced within its borders.
Sri Oracle
Posted by sri oracle on Sep 3, 2005 at 5:11 AM Rabbit knows which is why he clear has made it that there are two types of Americans. Right now agonising about the fact that you don’t have anything with steering the ship is not going to help get it under control. My friend it is not going to be enough to save your ship from ploughing headlong into the iceberg, that you just say some of you know how badly its being steered and would do it differently.
The iceberg in this case could more or less be defined as the rest of the planet. Chances are that your ship is so big and running hard before a building storm, it may just sink the iceberg this time. The titanic analogy is intentional. What was the classic lesson of the Titanic again? Mate we are in much worse scenario than a single ship on a calm sea.
Make sure that you don’t just skim Rabbits words. They are carefully chosen, real and hard to misunderstand if taken in context.
Rabbit is an Gnostic of 42 years and a Water Rabbit/Aries.
Rabbit is only anonymous in the dark. In the light any can see who he is.
Cheers
Posted by Rabbitvoz on Sep 3, 2005 at 5:30 AM Some clarifications of Rabbitvoz’s remarks for those who are not acronym friendly but reading along:
POTUS - Presidents of the United States
DU - nuclear waste that the US forces use to tip their missles and bullets with for armor piercing capability. 3000 metric tons have been exploded in iraqi cities in this form and will remain there for billions of years causing mutation due to radiation. There was a news article the day before the storm on “Victoria Claudette” story “Radioactive Wounds of War” look her up on google… Daddy shot Iraqi’s w/ DU guns… comes home has a kid… born w/ 2 fingers due to radiation poisoning. The story is lost in the shuffle by the N.O. incident coverage. Kind of like the story of AIDS being manufactured as an “ethnic cleansing” weapon to reduce african decent population being covered up by the coverage of the assasination of Indira Gandhi on Oct. 31, 1984. But we won’t go there.
Sri Oracle
Posted by sri oracle on Sep 3, 2005 at 5:39 AM Sri oracle there is this or similar article dealt with on this site, “Radioactive wounds of war” complete with a fully exposed Military DU shill. The Pentagon man gets exposed and roundly belted about the court. Possibly ongoing. He is furthermore a troll particularly active on this site. Worth the read. Trust Rabbit, it is bound to spill over.
It is appropriate to tie all the acts which are coming undone to the right people right now. They are at their weakest they are ever likely to be and the only way for them to go up from here may make it even more difficult in the future. How long do you think we’ll have even this much, Internet, to link our cause, survival of our civilization in the most basic meaning of the word.?
Posted by Rabbitvoz on Sep 3, 2005 at 5:59 AM Surprise Anouncement - Halliburton hired to do New Orleans cleanup - who’d a thunk it?
The Navy has hired Houston-based Halliburton Co. to restore electric power, repair roofs and remove debris at three naval facilities in Mississippi damaged by Hurricane Katrina.
Halliburton subsidiary KBR will also perform damage assessments at other naval installations in New Orleans as soon as it is safe to do so.
KBR was assigned the work under a “construction capabilities” contract awarded in 2004 after a competitive bidding process. The company is not involved in the Army Corps of Engineers’ effort to repair New Orleans’ levees.
http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/business/3335685
Posted by Rabbitvoz on Sep 3, 2005 at 6:12 AM “If you are one of the many who will be having a complete paradigm shift at this time, take heart that Rabbit understands, he loves you and always did.”
It occured for me 6 months before 9/11.
eye to eye Rabbitvoz check your private msgs at iraq news
Sri Oracle - Alchemist
ps - I misquoted above the call for federal aid was by liz not rocco
Posted by sri oracle on Sep 3, 2005 at 6:18 AM “How long do you think we’ll have even this much, Internet, to link our cause.” -rabbit
My brother, I do not know. I have been spouting 2025 as a madhouse year for a while. Sooner is now becoming apparent. USGS and NOAA are still giving out pretty clean climate data. Connecting the dots paints a clear picture.
Do get above 30 ft sea level. Do get out of major metros. It is coming. It is not just the weather.
sri oracle
Posted by sri oracle on Sep 3, 2005 at 6:31 AM The comments attached to this article have been grossly censored overnight. All comments made by rabbitvoz have been removed. He was critical of US administration handling of this crisis. He was not obscene and he remained on topic: “How policy decisions doomed New Orleans”
Now he said nothing.
sri oracle
Posted by sri oracle on Sep 3, 2005 at 1:03 PM FULLL TEXT OF RABBITVOZ’s comments follow. They were made during a blog conversation last night intermittenly between my comments.
Sri Oracle
——————————— ;———-
Surprise Anouncement - Halliburton hired to do New Orleans cleanup - who’d a thunk it?
The Navy has hired Houston-based Halliburton Co. to restore electric power, repair roofs and remove debris at three naval facilities in Mississippi damaged by Hurricane Katrina.
Halliburton subsidiary KBR will also perform damage assessments at other naval installations in New Orleans as soon as it is safe to do so.
KBR was assigned the work under a “construction capabilities” contractawarded in 2004 after a competitive bidding process. The company is not
involved in the Army Corps of Engineers’ effort to repair New Orleans’
levees.Sri oracle there is this or similar article dealt with on this site,
“Radioactive wounds of war” complete with a fully exposed Military DUshill. The Pentagon man gets exposed and roundly belted about the court. Possibly ongoing. He is furthermore a troll particularly active on this site. Worth the read. Trust Rabbit, it is bound to spill over.
It is appropriate to tie all the acts which are coming undone to the right people right now. They are at their weakest they are ever likely to be and the only way for them to go up from here may make it even more difficult in the future. How long do you think we’ll have even this much, Internet, to link our cause, survival of our civilization in the most basic meaning of the word.?
Rabbit knows which is why he clear has made it that there are two types of Americans. Right now agonising about the fact that you don’t have anything with steering the ship is not going to help get it under control. My friend it is not going to be enough to save your ship from ploughing headlong into the iceberg, that you just say some of you know how badly its being steered and would do it differently.The iceberg in this case could more or less be defined as the rest of the planet. Chances are that your ship is so big and running hard before a building storm, it may just sink the iceberg this time. The titanic analogy is intentional. What was the classic lesson of the Titanic again? Mate we are in much worse scenario than a single ship on a calm sea.
Make sure that you don’t just skim Rabbits words. They are carefully
chosen, real and hard to misunderstand if taken in context.Rabbit is an Gnostic of 42 years and a Water Rabbit/Aries.
Rabbit is only anonymous in the dark. In the light any can see who he is.
Cheers
“What we had in New Orleans is a growing disaster: The hurricane hit, that was one disaster; then the levees broke, that was another disaster; then the floods came; that became a third disaster.”-George W. Bush
Are you in, my little munchkins?One of your number is already doing his patriotic duty. The following is by a poster on this site on another thread. He is one of you, he has clearly said everything you are all about to say, and as you will see he knows what to do in the situation.
“
As far as the New Orleans situation — I should be spending less time on the computer and more at the TV. This is the worst possible handling of a natural catastrophe I have ever seen.These poor people are in a survival mode. Like a wounded animal they will
even attack someone who is trying to help. This is totally understandable — we are all just a few meals short of this same response.After listening to the Mayor of New Orleans this morning I hate to think of what will happen if the terrorists hit us with a dirty bomb. We have no training. No evacuation plans. No defense.
Posted by sri oracle on Sep 3, 2005 at 1:18 PM part two follows:
So far the terrorists are busy using your homeland security to throw Dirty Bombs at the Iraqis, and depriving. I don’t think they intend even to use DU when they start the massacres, they’ll just machine gun them from the air, using helicopters which are being kept in reserve for the purpose, which is why btw, there don’t seem to be too many to go around for rescue operations.
Oh was it not those terrorists you meant?
What others are there?Come on you Bush lovers, where are you now that the PRESIDENT needs your support? The terrorists are attacking! Quick, quick some traitors are at it, slandering the POTUS. Putting the troops in danger, damaging confidence in the economy. Get ya guns out boys they’re everywhere.
My god what’s that, some of the faithful are faultering, they are shocked, suddenly a new thought dawns like a brilliant ray of light. But it is blinding, it hurts, take it away.
But no, you can’t keep the light out, it has already shone light on things you never knew were with you in the darkness, all along. You can never go completely back now. The awakening begins with a jolt. It is over in a flash, the despair begins almost immediately as you recognise this hithertoo safe room is in reality a jungle with many dark and frightening places and things. You know at the same time that you must now keep the light on, you would never want to live in this place with darkness again.
If you are one of the many who will be having a complete paradigm shift at this time, take heart that Rabbit understands, he loves you and always did. No, Rabbit does not understand the process from experience but has helped many others over the moment of realisation before. Rabbit never was silly enough to have bought the bull. Not for thirty years at least. Its nice no longer to be a minority though.
Posted by sri oracle on Sep 3, 2005 at 1:20 PM “How long do you think we’ll have even this much, Internet, to link our cause, survival of our civilization in the most basic meaning of the word.?”
It is happening already rabbit.
Posted by sri oracle on Sep 3, 2005 at 1:21 PM at this point I’m a bit concerned for the safety of my family. is there going to be some armed patriot act militant at my door accusing me of dissent?
sri oracle
Posted by sri oracle on Sep 3, 2005 at 1:24 PM Yes sri oracle, check your Iraq News per mes. I fear it may be so. Problems this end and did you notice all my posts gone also other places and this site re-arranged. Message me I’ll give my E-mail. This other computer etc and expect this message too to disapear.
If you’ve never had door kicked in before, make sure you nothing have illegal in possession. They don’t need any but any excuse they will use.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 3, 2005 at 2:05 PM Announcement:
This site encourages debate about issues. The truth may be discussed but it is not in any way intended that truth should be established beyond doubt. Any poster caught seriously removing all doubt about any issue which is too unflattering to the US government or its employees will be edited out and locked out of the site. Furthermore their computer will suffer a serious hacking attack.
This thread has been re-arranged so as to undo some of the damage via strong but true words which cast serious doubt on quality of US by Rabbitvoz.
Another thread on DU has had similar treatment because Rabbitvoz said too many true things about the US government.
Members are encouraged to discuss things but this site reserves the right to curtail excessive imbalance of truth. Balance means equal amount of lies and truth.
War is Freedom
The dangers of DU are in doubt.
All animals are equal.
Some are more equal than others.There is No Rabbitvoz
There never was anybody called Rabbitvoz
There is nothing to see here folks.Any member mentioning someone called Rabbit as having been a real person will be terminated.
You have been warned.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 3, 2005 at 2:08 PM Henceforth any mention of the mythical Rabbit shall simply say, “He who must not be named”
By the way sri oracle the main post on this thread by “He who must be named” which they dissappeared has had excellent response on another site and caused quite an avalanche of reaction, most unfavourable to the Junta.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 3, 2005 at 2:31 PM Still alive and kicking, once more re-posts the one that must have cracked their shell.
By:
He Who Must Not Be Named
Some of you Americans are the biggest wack jobs this Australian has ever seen.
You are arguing about whether or not to re-build New Orleans and who to shoot while the place is still in the throes of catastrophe and the worst administration in history is screwing the thing up so badly that the death toll which could clearly have been limited to a few hundred with real leadership, is probably going to go beyond ten thousand. Most of those people are yet to die, but your country has become so enfeebled by an overun of blind panic stricken, cringing, hubris that it is going to stand by wringing its hands in dismay, repeating hollow patriotic slogans while they die. I predict that very soon the military is going to start shooting, massacres will occur, they will probably be able to rush four times as many helicopter gunships to the area for the purpose and they’ll get a budget of a few billion to carry out the necessary “work”. Hell they’ll probably be able to get the lot in place and ready to start shooting within four hours or less. Just watch them, which of course you will. Then of course you’ll be explaining to each other why it was a reasonable response since those evil looters were just out of control.
So far most of the looting I’ve seen has involved people getting Nappies, canned foods, sanitary items. They look like people trying to survive to me. They are your own countrymen and your country seems to be abandoning them, label them looters and terrorists, then shoot the lot of them. Go ahead and proove me wrong, please!
You lack any credible leadership. What you have is a pack of confirmed thugs and psychopaths devotedly looting your once great nation. They are breaking the back of your military in a war of conquest for their oil and zionist handlers. They rob from the budget of your emergency services and cutback on planned adequate preparations against such a disaster, all documented. They have sent a large portion of your civil defense, your national guard off to fight this war where they are poisoning the same forces with Nuclear Waste, (not to mention innocent Iraqi’s who might once have at least felt pity for the Americans suffering) and trying to sell the idea as Sexy. When in truth it is a war crime of the first magnitude.
Where are the national guard? Where are the extra helicopters they control? In Baghdad strafing innocent Iraqis in case you haven’t being paying attention. By the way don’t be too surprised if the world doesn’t have too much sympathy to offer this time around, this is largely seen as self inflicted, even if by mismanagement. Our sympathy is also kind of distracted by the carnage your troops are wreaking upon the Iraqis every day. There is only so much sympathy to go around sometimes. Oh expect our leaders to make sympathetic noises, they have to don’t they. But the hearts of the people will not be in it. Sorry mates, but the last five years have seen a lot of water under the bridge and we just don’t see you the same as we used to. So sad for the victims as usual are the most innocent.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 3, 2005 at 2:45 PM <strike>Some posts have been removed from this thread for a violation of our terms of service. Abusive language, outright threats and a constant disregard for basic respect forced us to remove all posts from Rabbitvoz.</strike>
Apologies for the misunderstanding on this thread. The abusive posts were on a separate thread, so I’ve reinstated the posts on this thread until an editor can decide which posts should be removed.
Thanks for your understanding.
Posted by seamus on Sep 3, 2005 at 5:42 PM GrayArea -
You may have it wrong and backward, but at least you are coherent, unlike most on this thread.
” There is no credibility in saying that nobody saw this coming.”
Nobody is saying that. There was a decision years ago to build the NO levees to withstand a Cat 3 storm. This was done for reasons of cost effectiveness; higher levees cost too much. A Cat 4 or 5 storm was guaranteed to flood the city, and everybody knew it.
The City of New Orleans and the State of Louisiana have well-developed plans to deal with hurricanes; the plans included training, rehearsals, reserve supplies, shelters, mass evacuation orders, bus transportation for those that needed it, and security. See Annex I below.
http://www.cityofno.com/SystemModules/PrintPage.aspx?portal=46&tabid=26
The problem was the failure to execute the plan. The plan called for a 72-hour evacuation of the city, and both the Mayor and the Governor froze with a Cat 5 hurricane bearing down on them. Then on Sunday, with the hurricane 24 hours away:
“Gov. Kathleen Blanco, standing beside the mayor at a news conference, said President Bush called and personally appealed for a mandatory evacuation for the low-lying city, which is prone to flooding.”
President Bush had to tell the Governor and the Mayor to do their jobs according to their own plans!
http://www.nola.com/newsflash/louisiana/index.ssf?/base/news-18/1125239940201 1382.xml&storylist=louisiana
You have probably seen the school bus photo on Drudge: over 200 NO school buses up to their axles in flood water. Those buses could have hauled over 13,000 people to safety if the plan had been followed. Instead the buses are sitting in a parking lot in the floodwater, while people desperately needed transportation and support.
“It is plain to see that the humanitarian support infrastructure of the US is pretty much in tatters and the Bush administration expects folks to fend for themselves.”
This. Is. Nonsense. And the American people know it. The more maniacal you Liberals talk and act, the more people vote Republican. Republicans have won seven of the last ten Presidential elections, now control both houses of the Congress, and have improved their performance in 2000, 2002, and 2004. Keep up the good work.
Sometimes I think Karl Rove really does exert mind control over the Democrats. Democrats seem to have zero control over their own minds.
Posted by scorp on Sep 3, 2005 at 8:15 PM Nice to see I’m not alowed to see naughty things that might warp my fragile little mind.Shyeah!
I’m sorry,but sometimes it’s funny to see someone do a Thelma and Louise on one of these threads.That’s why
Jack Barnes was so interesting.Now we’re going to be protected from ranting.Sweet.By the way,sri oracle,what in blazes are you talking about?Remote control hurricanes?Please.If you want something to really be afraid of try the global warming(climatic erosion is actually more fitting)that has raised water temperatures in the Gulf of Mexico and the South Atlantic.Warm water produces hurricanes,not Flash Gordon.With our irresponsibilty of our industry Katrina could be the new standard.
I’ve heard some people were amazed that it took so long for relief supplies to show up.Considering that most of the refugees were poor and black,people who don’t vote Republican,I’m amazed that relief even got there at all.
Despite this colossal SNAFU,the Bush team is still trying to claim victory and Fox News is looking for a way to blame Democrats.
“The Black Knight always triumphs!Have at you!”
-new Bush Team slogan.Seriously,you know you’ve choked when Gingrich says you blew it.Still,it will be fun to watch the Bush Team squirm for a few days.I wonder what Rush and Hannity could possibly say to mitigate this?
Posted by wwoods on Sep 3, 2005 at 8:22 PM “By the way,sri oracle,what in blazes are you talking about? Remote control hurricanes?”
Google search: HAARP
Do your own research. Connect the dots. Infer.
Truth will then find you.
Peace and Jah Love,
Sri Oracle
Posted by sri oracle on Sep 4, 2005 at 3:05 AM Eadora -
Do I have a link for you! The one I provided in my post seems to be slightly garbled. Try:
http://www.nola.com/newsflash/louisiana/index.ssf?/base/news-18/1125239940201 1382.xml&storylist=louisiana
I think the Bush quote (“breach of the levees”) has been overplayed by the Liberal disaster mongers: americablog, crooksandliars, etc. Can you access the complete ‘Good Morning, America’ transcript, for context?
After all, it was Bush that urged Blanco and Nagin to activate their own emergency plans, and it was Bush that declared an emergency on 26 August 2005 without waiting for action by Louisiana officials. Blanco and Nagin certainly did not anticipate breach of the levees; they did nothing until the hurricane was upon them. I think everyone, including Bush, was hoping there would be no breach, but only President Bush and Governor Barbour did anything about it.
Which brings up another point. How come when there is an emergency under a Republican administration (09/11, four hurricanes in Florida in 2004, Katrina in Mississippi) everyone pitches in and takes care of business, with a minimum of fuss and bother? But when a Democratic administration is in power (Watts Riot and Katrina in Louisiana come to mind) it is like a demented circle jerk? Do you suppose this is why the American people keep electing Republicans? I will bet you a genuine $3 bill that the next governor of Louisiana is a Republican.
Posted by scorp on Sep 4, 2005 at 3:49 AM Eadora -
Did it again.
http://www.nola.com/newsflash/louisiana/index.ssf?/base/news- 18/1125239940201382.xml&storylist=louisiana
Eliminate one space after news-
Posted by scorp on Sep 4, 2005 at 3:59 AM Eadora -
This is making an automatic change of some sort. The center of the address should read
...../base/news-18/11252…..
Posted by scorp on Sep 4, 2005 at 4:03 AM Thank You I Got It!
I have had the same problem posting linksAttention Seamus
Posted by Eadora on Sep 4, 2005 at 5:25 AM REGARDING THE TIMING OF THE EVACUATION.
1st call that I can find comes from “Crawford Texas” Sat, Aug. 27, 2005 no time given
http://www.contracostatimes.com/mld/cctimes/12494800.htm?template=contentModu ules/printstory.jsp
Mandatory Evacuation Ordered by Mayor: Sat, Aug. 28, 10:00am 2005
http://www.nola.com/newsflash/louisiana/index.ssf?/base/news-18/1125239940201 1382.xml&storylist=louisiana
Link given by the “scrop!”
————-
Now here is the best Link that I found describing the evacuation plan!Louisiana revamps plan for hurricane evacuation
http://www.usatoday.com/weather/hurricane/2005-04-13-Lousiana-evacuation_x.htm?P POE=WEAISVAPosted 4/13/2005 6:11 PM Updated 4/14/2005 6:42 PM
Involving Hurricane Ivan - Plan still in effect for this one
———————————<Best read the article, but here are a few quotes:
Quote: “Preparing for evacuations would begin at least 72 hours in advance under the new plan. One problem during Hurricane Ivan was the time required to get barriers, people and other material in place to allow lane reversal on highways.”
So evacuation was not to begin 72 hr before storm hit, Evacuation was to be prepared at this time.
Quote: “The plan allows traffic from Louisiana to head north on all four interstate lanes as far as Hattiesburg/Laurel on I-59 and to south of McComb on I-55, Brown said. There would be provisions for vehicles that need to travel south to take alternate routes, such as U.S. 51.”
And that is what happened.
From above Link:
Quote: Beginning 50 hours in advance evacuations south of New Orleans would be ordered, public offices and schools would be closed, but traffic would remain along normal routes
Quote At 40 hours, evacuation south of the Mississippi River, including—-the West Bank of New Orleans, would be ordered
—————————As to when these evacuations were officially begun I can as yet find nothing.
I sure another poster will get that info.Scrop has a point the 1st order for “Mandatory Evacuation” that I can find comes from Crawford Texas.
But that might have been his prerogative. I don’t know.
The Order was given by the Mayor , early the next morning
The Evacuation was never planned to begin 72 hrs before the storm hit.
Rather Preparations for the evacuations where to begin at this time.
The earliest time that the planned evacuation was suppose to begin 40 hrs, prior to lift off.
How far they where off I do not know.
Posted by Eadora on Sep 4, 2005 at 6:49 AM Evacuation plans for all the effected areas will hopefully be scrutinized in the months to come. It wasn’t just New Orleans that suffered. Biloxi, Miss. was wiped off the map, over 100 dead and still counting. Slidel, LA, was severly affected, Gulf Port, decimated.
And every casino along the coast, that are all on floating platforms (riverboats) for the most stupid of reasons, because they wanted gambling but not in their state so they put them on the water. Dipping their toe in the water (so to speak) in favor of gambling, they probably ended up with more destruction with this dumb idea. I’m sure the casinos had insurance, they’d be way too stupid not to, unless they just figured the government would pay them off anyway.
The death toll has not even been attempted to be counted yet. We were getting many estimates by this time from the Tsunami. I’m betting when all is said and done the count from Katrina might hit 20,000.
The article is quite clear that budget cuts were certainly a signal from Washington that New Orleans just wasn’t that important to them. It has also been made quite clear in the media that Democrats in Louisiana had been pleading for the money on many occassions. Sen. Landrieu had been on the senate floor opposing those budget cuts on numerous occasions. The current mayor and previous mayors of New Orleans opposed budget cuts for levee work.
But every pundit in America knows that this falls on Bush. He took huge gains after 9/11 in polling popularity, even though he really didn’t do anything except what, visit the site and say “I hear you.”
The most recent poll I’ve seen has him at only a 45% approval (Washington Post/ABC for Aug. 25-28) which is his lowest while in office and rivals Nixon’s numbers. Just wait until polls get published that cover this past week, I’m betting below 40%.
Americans saw his slow reaction, many who voted for him I’ve personally heard have called him a disgrace. They saw Bush totally ignore the situation on Tuesday as New Orleans became submerged. He gave an Iraq speech in San Diego, he golfed in Arizona and then retired for an evening at the ranch, day 29 of his vacation. He didn’t address the country until 500pm the next day when he finally got his butt back to Washington.
The White House the other day explained they don’t know when Cheney is to return from his vacation in Wyoming. Condoleeza Rice was spotted shopping for shoes in New York Wednesday night, where someone saw her and in anger asked how could she be shopping while people were dieing in New Orleans. She then attended Spamalot that evening. No knowledge of Rumsfeld, I first saw him Saturday next to Bush when he gave his televised radio address (oxymoron). Certainly doesn’t seem these people felt Katrina aftermath was any reason to stop their pleasure plans.
It wasn’t long after 9/11 that a detailed study of what Bush did in the hours and days following that event appeared in the media, we will see it this time as well. Only this time the media is mad. New Orleans 80% underwater and Bush was still on vacation and had time for golf. If that isn’t out of touch, I don’t know what is.
Posted by Jon B on Sep 4, 2005 at 1:45 PM How’s this for help from Bush;
Times-Picayune
Saturday, September 03, 2005
Bush visit halts food delivery
By Michelle Krupa
Staff writerThree tons of food ready for delivery by air to refugees in St. Bernard Parish and on Algiers Point sat on the Crescent City Connection bridge Friday afternoon as air traffic was halted because of President Bush’s visit to New Orleans, officials said.
The provisions, secured by U.S. Rep. Charlie Melancon, D-Napoleonville, and state Agriculture Commissioner Bob Odom, baked in the afternoon sun as Bush surveyed damage across southeast Louisiana five days after Katrina made landfall as a Category 4 storm, said Melancon’s chief of staff, Casey O’Shea.
“We had arrangements to airlift food by helicopter to these folks, and now the food is sitting in trucks because they won’t let helicopters fly,” O’Shea said Friday afternoon.
The food was expected to be in the hands of storm survivors after the president left the devastated region Friday night, he said.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~Bush not only was AWOL on Tuesday, but he was just in the way on Friday. What a loser, I’m ready to call him a murderer.
Posted by Jon B on Sep 4, 2005 at 2:08 PM And then there’s Bush’s wife.
Lafayette Daily Advertiser
Friday, Sept. 2, 2005
Jan RisherAs the first lady toured the Red Cross shelter at the Cajundome this morning, a line of evacuees waiting to eat their lunch trickled out the door of the Dome.
First lady Laura Bush arrived about midday to tour the shelter and meet evacuees.
By 12:50 p.m., the trays of food were still covered and hungry evacuees stood in line, holding empty plates. Rice, beans and jambalaya were on the menu. About that time, volunteers began rolling the carts of food into position to serve.
~~~~~~~Must be nice to be elite and well-fed, Laura. Get out of the way if you aren’t any help, people are really hungry after their ordeal. Are you so blind to your unimportance to this situation?
Posted by Jon B on Sep 4, 2005 at 2:19 PM Eadora -
My original post: the first link I gave you copied wrong, also. It should have contained the ‘City of New Orleans Comprehensive Emergency Management Plan, Annex I’. This quote is from Annex I:
“Using information developed as part of the Southeast Louisiana Hurricane Task Force and other research, the City of New Orleans has established a maximum acceptable hurricane evacuation time standard for a Category 3 storm event of 72 hours.”
Try the corrected link:
http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=26
“The Evacuation was never planned to begin 72 hrs before the storm hit.”
I find this statement utterly incomprehensible. Having ridden out Audrey in 1957 (600 dead) and a number of lesser blows, I assure you that New Orleans, of all places, requires a minimum of 72 hours, because of the city’s size, demographics, proximity to the coast, at risk features, and limited exit routes. Preliminary activity after an alert allows people to secure their homes and property, allows for logistics preparations (food, water, medical), allows for transportation assembly (the infamous flooded school buses), and allows for preparations to care for special needs requirements (hospitals, nursing homes, etc.). The actual evacuation might well take 48 hours, after the preliminaries are successfully completed. Nobody in their right mind would announce an evacuation of New Orleans 24 hours before a Cat 5 hurricane was due to hit, but the Governor and the mayor have left minds.
Redstate has a good timeline of the events:
http://www.redstate.org/story/2005/9/2/151117/6847
Posted by scorp on Sep 4, 2005 at 2:20 PM Posted by scorp on September 4, 2005 at 9:20 AM
Quote the scorp:
“The Evacuation was never planned to begin 72 hrs before the storm hit.”
“I find this statement utterly incomprehensible.”From what I have been able to gather since my last post, I find that the 72 hr, time frame was meant as a start of “Voluntary Evacuation”, and a beginning of preparations for “Mandatory Evacuation”
Thank you for the LINK!
CITY OF NEW ORLEANS COMPREHENSIVE EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT PLAN
http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=26From that site I glean this relevant data.
Quote:A.Evacuation Time Requirements
”Using information developed as part of the Southeast Louisiana Hurricane Task Force and other research, the City of New Orleans has established a maximum acceptable hurricane evacuation time standard for a Category 3 storm event of 72 hours………..”.
Clearance time also includes the time required by evacuees to secure their homes and prepare to leave (mobilization time); the time spent by evacuees traveling along the road network (travel time); and the time spent by evacuees waiting along the road network due to traffic congestion (delay time)…………. Evacuation notices or orders will be issued during three stages prior to gale force winds making landfall.
> Precautionary Evacuation Notice: 72 hours or less
> Special Needs Evacuation Order: 8-12 hours after Precautionary Evacuation Notice issued
> General Evacuation Notice: 48 hours or less
———————————& ——————
According the site I found, and posted Yesterday, Which I might add has oddly enough I find has been scrubbed from the web this morning.LOUISIANA REVAMPS PLAN FOR HURRICAN EVACUATION
http://www.usatoday.com/weather/hurricane/2005-04-13-Lousian na-evacuation_x.htm?POE=WEAISVAI have the following quote saved from the site
Quote: “Preparing for evacuations would begin at least 72 hours in advance under the new plan. One problem during Hurricane Ivan was the time required to get barriers, people and other material in place to allow lane reversal on highways.”
———————————& —
Putting these sources together, I conclude:
The “>Precautionary Evacuation Notice: 72 hours or less” was to be voluntary. During which time Preparations would be made for “Mandatory Evacuation”
The “> General Evacuation Notice: 48 hours or less”
I take this to be the planned time given in THE COMPREHENSIVE EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT PLAN for Mandatory Evacuation.
Yoh scorp Thank for this linkTIMELINE FOR KATRINA EVENT
From your LINK – Red State .org We Get
http://www.redstate.org/story/2005/9/2/151117/6847
I recommend it as the only timeline on this event that seems to be available
Though not official it seems credible.
Unfortunately this site does not give exact time of the N.O. landfall
———————————& ———I found that info here:
HURRICANE KATRINA MAKES LANDFALL IN LA.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2005/08/29/national/a034848D47. .DTL
Aug 29 04:07 am PDT NEW ORLEANS, (AP) –SO!
Mon. Aug 29 04:07 am PDT minus - 48 hrs. equals = Sat Aug 27 04:07 am PDT
Sat Aug 27 04:07 am PDT is the time that the “Mandatory Evacuation” order should have been made according to THE COMPREHENSIVE EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT PLAN
Sat Aug 27 09:16 pm is the time that the “Mandatory Evacuation order” was finally made, by Mayor Nagin. According to these unofficial figures it was some 17hrs late.
It seems Mayor Nagin need his ass kicked on this one. Seventeen Hours could have gotten a lot of people out. FACT UNAVOIDABLE
PLEASE KEEP IN MIND “scorp”!
That this in no way mitigates, this Administrations Incompetent polices
Other Unavoidable Facts
Posted by Eadora on Sep 4, 2005 at 4:19 PM THE GHOST OF KYOTO COMES CALLING ON NEW ORLEANS
“No One Can Say they Didn’t See it Coming”
http://www.informationclearinghouse…rticle10050.htm
After reading the article, we may come to some conclusions as to the competency of the Bush administration.
The facts delineated in the above analysis show——
Bush Ignored FEMA’s warnings that New Orleans was in grave danger warning - Bush & his Administration’s fault
They Ignored U.S. Army Corps of Engineers proposal & plan, that New Orleans could be protected from a catastrophic hurricane - Bush & his Administration’s fault
Federal funding for the flood control project essentially dried up and was sent to Iraq - Bush & his Administration’s fault.
Additional cuts at the beginning of this year - Bush & his Administration’s fault.
Total reduction in funding of 44.2 percent since 2001 - Bush & his Administration’s fault.
Senate debate to adding funds for fixing New Orleans’ levees, is too late - Bush & his Administration’s fault.
Turning Wetlands over to developers - Bush & his Administration’s fault.
Ignored US Army Corps of Engineers warning regarding Wetlands - Bush & his Administration’s fault.
Ignored a joint expert environmental study regarding wetlands – Bush & his Administration’s fault.
Ignored EPA on global consequences of climate warming - Bush & his Administration’s fault.
Stymied any common action on global warming - Bush & his Administration’s fault.
Ignored call by Noble Scientists to “Restore Scientific Integrity into Policymaking” - Bush & his Administration’s fault.
New Orleans disaster was exasperated by these policies - Bush & his Administration’s fault.
That many people may have difficulty dealing with facts. - Who’s to say?
But the Facts remain. It remains to be seen weather they will be allowed to drown in the magnitude of this tragedy.
Posted by Eadora on Sep 4, 2005 at 4:20 PM Eadora -
“After reading the article, we may come to some conclusions as to the competency of the Bush administration.”
Who reads Information Clearinghouse? IC is a hard left propaganda site. The only thing you can say about it is that it is dead-sure wrong on any position it takes.
For example:
“They Ignored U.S. Army Corps of Engineers proposal & plan, that New Orleans could be protected from a catastrophic hurricane - Bush & his Administration’s fault”.
But consider:
“The New Orleans area’s last line of defense against hurricane flooding is a 475-mile-long system of levees, locks, sea walls and floodgates averaging about 16 feet high. The Army Corps of Engineers says the system will protect the city and suburbs from a Category 3 hurricane that pushes in enough seawater to raise Lake Pontchartrain 11.5 feet above sea level ...”
http://www.nola.com/washingaway/risk_1.html
Well and good, but Katrina was a Cat 5 hurricane as it came ashore, and the levee system was not designed to withstand a storm this strong. The system was built to a Cat 3 specification because of cost considerations. Raising the height of 475 miles of the levee system would require a spectacular cost, and there is no proposal to do such a thing. All the people who are talking about rebuilding New Orleans ought to consider how much protection they are willing to pay for when they talk about rebuilding. I expect that if you add up the cost of rebuilding and the cost of Cat 5 protection, New Orleans will never be rebuilt.
Similarly:
“Stymied any common action on global warming - Bush & his Administration’s fault”.
Ummm, no.
During the Clinton Administration, the Senate voted 95-0 to reject the Kyoto Accords, and the idea was shelved. People like Information Clearinghouse and Al Gore keep bringing the subject up, and lying about if, but there is no serious discussion of Kyoto at this point, and never will be, because the whole concept is inaccurate, flawed, and too silly for words. And Bush had nothing to do with it. And global warming had nothing to do with Katrina.
Eadora, you went to some trouble to research this subject, and then you turned over your critical thinking faculty over to a crack-pot outfit like Information Clearinghouse. Why? You need to learn to think for yourself. There are too many people out there that will joyfully lie to you if you can’t think your way through these things.
Posted by scorp on Sep 4, 2005 at 5:46 PM “Experts have warned for years that the levees and pumps that usually keep New Orleans dry have no chance against a direct hit by a Category 5 storm.”—AP story, 8/29/05
Ummm…
“I don’t think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees.”—George W. Bush, 9/1/05
Posted by Tim Christopher on Sep 4, 2005 at 6:12 PM Scorpion- Noone is saying that Katrina was a direct consequence of global warming. Global warming is a massive and immense climatic alteration process that scientists are still beginning to understand the consequences of. Furthermore, there is NO way to attribute a single weather incident to something as pervasive as global warming. There are too many other varibales involved. But scientists do know that global warming leads and will lead to more irregular weather patterns, as well as more intense storms.
Think of this analogy: crime goes up when a heat wave hits, but that does NOT mean that an individual who commits a crime did it specifically beacuse of the heat. Yet that does NOT mean that heat waves do not influence the level of crime.
Posted by Liberal on Sep 4, 2005 at 9:31 PM “[Nobody’s] saying that Katrina was a direct consequence of global warming.”
Although there is plenty of reliable scientific evidense that suggests that warmer waters in the Gulf of Mexico did in fact contribute to the storm’s intensity. Storms increase in intensity as they pass over warm waters. It figures that the warmer the water the more a storm’s intensity will increase.
http://www.gfdl.noaa.gov/reference/bibliography/2004/tk0401.pdf
http://www.heatisonline.org/main.cfm
So who are you going to believe? Bona fide scientific scholars, or a pathological liar (George Bush)?
Posted by Tim Christopher on Sep 4, 2005 at 10:26 PM Tim Christopher- I hear you on that last post. I was not trying to deny the fact that global warming alters weather patterns, just that one could directly attribute global warming to Katrina. If you read the latter part of my post I explicitly say that global warming does lead to more irregular and violent weather. I do not doubt the existence of global warming, just that a straight line of logic can be made from the greenhouse effect to this hurricane.
Posted by Liberal on Sep 4, 2005 at 11:27 PM The administration couldn’t get things rolling for almost 3 days. I wonder why Harry Connick could get in and out but not any food or water.
Posted by mrwheat on Sep 5, 2005 at 1:06 AM Rabbits ghost drops by.
“In These Times” has regained Rabbit’s trust somewhat and he apologises for accusing them of dishonesty. Also Seamus, Rabbit will swiftly withdraw the accusation of lying as soon as it is admitted that Rabbit did not in fact make any threats. Snarled and bit the Pentagon shill mercilessly he did, but no threats.
To those who are still demonstrating the elasticity of the human mind by supporting the criminal junta which rules your poor country Rabbit would say the following.
You belong to a small and swiftly shrinking minority. Unlike religions, political beliefs or any other cause, the traffic in supporters is one way street. Nobody is ever being converted to support you and nobody ever changes their mind once they begin to see the truth. Witness the masses of people all over the net admitting that they were amongst the supporters of Shrub and the Junta only a week ago. It is unlikely that you will comprehend this or its consequences, but if you did you would understand why most people hold you in contempt.
The problem with you Scorp (and you do have a problem) is that you don’t know the difference between opinions and facts.
These two terms are the most common words shouted in an argument and yet when arguing with your type you call everything you say fact while others you accuse of having opinions. Now Rabbit has always believed that opinions are best formed based upon facts.
George Bush is a proven liar, that is a fact, provable history.
For you to say otherwise is for you to prove that you have not got the fact only an opinion, no doubt based upon opinions you have been fed. We can prove Bush lies, you can only express your opinion that you don’t believe us. Since there is ample proof that Bush is a massive liar, it isn’t an opinion sweety, it’s a fact. Now Rabbits opinion is that a President who lies as much as Shrub, is not only very bad, but terribly dangerous. Of course he wouldn’t be dangerous if he didn’t represent people like you, but he does, he is your emperor.
Most people can now see your emperor has no clothes, but by all means keep on telling us how fine he is dressed, we are in need of comic relief at this time.
Does anyone know how much help, water, food, water purification units, troops and evacuation transport America was able to get to Banda Aceh, and how quickly. Rabbit will look it up and post soon otherwise?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 5, 2005 at 1:11 AM Yoh “scorp!”
I appreciated your link
THE TIMELINE FOR KATRINA EVENT
From – “Red State .org”http://www.redstate.org/story/2005/9/2/151117/6847
I recommended it as the only timeline on this event that seems to be availableThough not official it seems credible.
It dealt with the Facts given – Though as you may have guessed, I am not one of REP Conservative nature.Yet I accepted the facts and adjusted my thinking. As unsavory as those facts may have seemed to me.
EG> “The Mayor should have his ASS kicked!
Now we can get facts out of the mouth of “HELL” good brother!
Facts are not Partisan, Facts don’t take sides! “Facts IS Facts.” so to speak.
Hell is hot! The facts about Hell are probably best measured in Hell!
Now if : http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/index.html
Have some Facts. <<I will evaluate them!>>
Weather facts are quoted or offered from RIGHT, LEFT or CENTER. If they stand up as facts,
My world view must take them into account.That is why I evaluated the facts you gave me.
The facts that were revealed and quoted by the web site, RED STATE.ORG ,
Hardly an un-biased source!Yet I found the FACTS that they offered were Credible. As unpleasant to my preconceptions, as I might have found those facts, I found that they indicated to me that the Mayor of New Orleans was in remiss.
He should be pilloried.I repeat myself because this is a very important point.
Now as regards a few other FACTS!The US Army Corps of Engineers HAD a plan to deal with a class 5 hurricane.
They were ignored!FEMA repeatedly warned. – THEY were ignored.
US Corps of Engineers warned about the destruction of the Wetlands
They were Ignored.Everybody warned and pleaded for funds to reinforce the Levees
They were Ignored. AND incredibly FUNDS WERE CUT!Numerous Independents Pleaded and Warned.
They were Ignored.THOSE ARE “SOME” OF THE FACTS!
It does not matter WHO brings these facts to LIGHT
Whether, RIGHT< LEFT< CENTER.— Commie, Pinko, Saint, Indian, Sinner Jew, or Freak Terrorist.Facts are Non Partisan. That is what is so beautiful about them.
If the facts prove credible and valid!
YOU MUST “DEAL” WITH THEM!“You learn to deal with facts , when you learn to think for YOURSELF!
And you change your world view as you perceive FACTS.
That is called growth & learning. Being ALIVE!
–THINKING FOR YOURSELFI’ll get back to you on the Clinton thing when I learn the FACTS.
As Far as KOYOTO and Global Warming is concerned, It will probably best be dealt with on it’s own Thread.
The facts in that regard speak volumes to me!
Like I said: “That many people may have difficulty dealing with facts. - Who’s to say?”
It has been said: “When ‘The True Believer’ is presented with facts, that would seem to present a problem with his belief system. He will simply ignore those facts and pray a little harder.”
Are You A True Believer, or do you think for Yourself?
Posted by Eadora on Sep 5, 2005 at 1:53 AM Rabbit has finally come to recognise why otherwise good people who surely have the same basic ideals would argue so much. They don’t know the difference between facts and opinions.
Another fact, upon which an opinion can then be based, a worthwhile opinion.
The united states is committing a massive war crime at this moment, unlawfully attacking a sovereign nation and using banned weapons of war under both Chemical and Nuclear categories.
Here are five hundred links which completely make the case for this fact.
http://www.betterworldlinks.org/du.htm
This event should have been a catstrophe with fairly limited casualties, and would have been almost anywhere else in the world. It is still a week later in full disarray and most of the expected tens of thousands of deaths are yet to occur. Rabbit predicted over ten thousand before you heard it anywhere, see date and time of his above posts. Rabbit is always right about these things, he predicted the Tsunami total on day two, within a couple of thousand when they predicting total would only be a few thousand.
The reason that this happened is based upon a fact. Not enough money or attention ny authorities who were using most of that money and attention to commit the war-crime outlined above. There cannot be any disputing these facts, they are history.
Now you may have the OPINION that bush is to blame for these facts, or you may be of the opinion that Muslims are to blame, or you may have it in your head that I am to blame. These then we shall call opinions, and you are welcome to espouse yours. Do not make an ass of yourself by coming into a public space and mistaking facts for opinions. You will not only make an ass of yourself, Rabbit who promises to not bite anymore, but still has a snarl which will make you wish you had never opened your stupid trap.
Simple formula:
FACTS + THOUGHT = OPINIONS
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 5, 2005 at 2:10 AM Yoh! Rabbit!
Welcome Back!
Try not to be so Rabbid!Go Get Em! Just don’t Kill em!
Posted by Eadora on Sep 5, 2005 at 2:10 AM Liberal
Information Clearinghouse
EadoraTime Magazine, Is Global Warming Fueling Katrina?
Democracy Now!, Katrina’s Real Name is Global Warming.
Der Spiegel, Katrina Should be a Lesson to US on Global Warming.
Boston Globe, Katrina’s Real Name … global warming.
CNN, ABC, USA Today, Katrina Reignites Global Warming Debate.
Robert F. Kennedy, Jr.
Juergen Tritten, German Environmental Minister.The first two items above are from this thread where someone claims that global warming caused Katrina. The next items are representative samples from Google Search ‘global warming Katrina’, 650,000 entries all in the last two weeks or so. About 90% of the entries are MSM or blatant left-wing sites pronouncing on the certainty of a direct connection between global warming and hurricanes in general and, frequently, Katrina in particular.
But consider: The average number of USA hurricane strikes in the last 150 years is 17.7 strikes per decade. Since 1951, the number of strikes per decade has been less than this average, meaning that there were more hurricanes before anyone ever heard of global warming. There have been three historical Cat 5 strikes in the USA; Katrina was not one of them. So if global warming causes more and bigger hurricanes, where are they? What the Liberals proclaim does not agree with the observed data.
Posted by scorp on Sep 5, 2005 at 3:07 AM Eadora
This is only the Ghost of Rabbit, but if you will do him the honour of reading these few last posts, and let Rabbit know if he is not being nicer and briefer.
Good Rabbit, trying hard to be nice.
—Scorp
Go read Rabbit’s words you scorp. That is where the discussion begins. They should make it clear you are not yet ready to debate with people who really are less interested in your opinion than they are those of people who base theirs on FACTS. You have only opinions and you prove it if you are unable to recognise the difference between Opinions and Fact. Opinions we can argue, facts are not disputable things, so deal with the first two FACTS I have given above, then offer an opinion on them, so we can see how you are progressing. Beyond that we know all your opinions already. You see we can watch TV too so we can read the script, you haven’t deviated from it a bit so don’t protest.
Answer Rabbit, please scorp, he has promised the nice people he will not attack you. He is trying to help you get well. Not to change your opinions, that is not Rabbit’s business. But he must give you the tools to win this argument for yourself. That means you have to be able to distinguish those critical issues of Fact versus Opinion. With facts the person has already won an argument. Without them you are left defending just your opinion with no hope of winning, ever. Just like Iraq kind of War really. This really is the answer to all human strife, arguments and war. None of which are absolutes. These are not ideals. Rabbit shall teall you what ideals are. They are Love, Security, Food, Shelter, Health and a good future for our children. None of these is a given they can all be lost. Think about it a minute and try to imagine why anyone would want to hurt any of these ideals for anyone else? Why then would anyone else want to threaten your ideals of this nature?
Since facts are irrefutable they must be the same for everyone. Since then the only reason left for war must be somebody mistaking opinion for facts this seems the only likely explanation. Of course it is just Rabbits opinion that we all share the same ideals above, but nothing has ever suggested anything different in many years of travels.
But who would want or even be able to so control your opinions as to make us go to war?
Rabbit thinks that answer is obvious. Governments and Religions.
By the way scorp. If you heed my very fair and reasonable words, you may end up spelling your own name with a capital S, denoting self respect at least. Rabbit would then too, the ‘S’ that is.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 5, 2005 at 6:07 AM “The tropics are only going to get busier as we enter the peak of the season,” said Brig. Gen. David L. Johnson, USAF (Ret.), director of the NOAA National Weather Service. “This may well be one of the most active Atlantic hurricane seasons on record, and will be the ninth above-normal Atlantic hurricane season in the last eleven years.”
Scorp, please… your opinion on this.
Sri Oracle
Posted by sri oracle on Sep 5, 2005 at 6:08 AM “Although we have already seen a record-setting seven tropical storms during June and July, much of the season’s activity is still to come,” said Gerry Bell, lead meteorologist on NOAA’s Atlantic Hurricane Seasonal Outlook. The predicted high levels of activity during the remainder of the season are consistent with NOAA’s pre-season outlook issued last spring, and are comparable to those seen during August to October of the very active 2003 and 2004 seasons.”
Scorp?
Posted by sri oracle on Sep 5, 2005 at 6:10 AM Aug. 2, 2005 — A very active Atlantic hurricane season is underway, and with more storms projected, NOAA today increased the number of storms in its 2005 hurricane season outlook. NOAA expects an additional 11 to 14 tropical storms from August through November, with seven to nine becoming hurricanes, including three to five major hurricanes. In total, this season is likely to yield 18 to 21 tropical storms, with nine to 11 becoming hurricanes, including five to seven major hurricanes.”
Posted by sri oracle on Sep 5, 2005 at 6:12 AM “Because of the multidecadal-scale nature of the Atlantic SST variability portrayed here, the shift since 1995 to an environment generally conducive to hurricane formation is not likely to change back soon.”
Posted by sri oracle on Sep 5, 2005 at 6:12 AM WHY NOTHING WILL CHANGE AFTER NEW ORLEANS
1. This is not an election year. By the time the next election rolls around the voting public will have forgotten all about it.
2. No one in the mainstream media will still be talking about New Orleans in a month’s time. The feeling will be unanimous that there were failures all round, so there’s no point in trying to blame anyone in particular. The message, as always, will be that it’s time to move on.
3. Within six months, the mainstream media will shortly begin deluging Americans with images of the reconstruction effort. By the time the mid-term elections are held, the perception of Bush as the ‘master of disaster’ will have been replaced by the perception that he is the ‘reconstruction president.’
Posted by Social Democracy Now on Sep 5, 2005 at 6:13 AM Social Democracy
That is certainly what one would expect if this is the end run. If we still have a choice, then this may be our last option to make it. Just a Rabbit intuition.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 5, 2005 at 7:42 AM They are great at the mindless invective and quoting so to “prove” their opinions> Opinions one thing. Facts another thing.
Present them with one provable fact and…....Guess scorp must be praying harder, because he sure isn’t saying anything.
Sri do you read Rense? A couple of articles of late have taken Chemtrails from my list of interesting but don’t think so, to mainstream and proof. Actually I might otherwise have questioned their validity in this discussion.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 5, 2005 at 12:37 PM I saw that 54,000 troops will be in the devastated areas. And these idiots wanted to start a WAR with only 100,000 more?? If we can’t even help ourselves, how on earth can we “help” others.
I am a grandmother; when I was a child the National Guard was advertised and used as a help in natural disasters. Instead these precious resources have been squandered on Iraq.
It’s enough to make those who saw red to see blue.
Posted by sonora on Sep 5, 2005 at 3:07 PM Social Democracy Now
Geez, I hate to say it, but I have to probably agree with your opinion, which is exactly why our country will eventually be toppled from its perch. I keep hoping that something wakes us up and sweep these corrupt politicians out of office so we can embark on a more honest way of running our country. Even Katrina might not do it, we will have forgotten by 2006.
Through the week I was both extremely depressed by the images coming out of the media of the Katrina aftermath, and had a growing positivism that maybe this would wake Americans up to the fact that both political parties have fault in this, but the Bushies were probably most to blame.
My feeling about New Orleans is that two main culprits caused failure of huge proportions.
First is one of priorities. If we (as a nation) had wanted to protect one of the most important port cities in our nation, the federal money would have been there. If we had cared about the poor and non-whites in this country we would have long changed the way urban cities exist. And if we had cared about democracy we would have changed the corrupt political and election system we have.
Second is one of qualifications. Our society has for too long cosidered those worthy of running things or advancing in organizations for mostly the wrong reasons. Particularily when it comes to political appointees. Case in point FEMA head Michael Brown who apparently had no experience running such a large organization, of even being in such a large entity or of having any experieince in disaster relief. We the people simply accept that appointees don’t have to have any qualifications, that it is all up to the whims of those we elect and we see this all over the country regardless of party.
Both parties whether a mayor, a governor or a president essentially appoint their friends who helped in their campaigns, particularily the ones who raise money. Whatever happened to working ones way up in an organization, proving time and again that the person was equal to the task until they proved they were able to run an organization? In Mike Browns case, I imagine he probably had campaign ties to Bush and worthy candidates within FEMA were passed over.
Bush probably a bit more than previous presidents has done this relentlessly to every department in government. Imagine that reliable bureaucrat that toils within a department working their way up only to be appointee-ceilinged from promotion. It doesn’t take much to understand that that can demoralize the good workers in an organization, affecting the department as a whole. We see this in the corporate world as well, in fact it has gotten out of hand. Some CEO from the outside comes in and starts chopping heads figuratively, like Saddam Hussein after taking power.
Finally, a major fault in America today is accountability. When was the last time you heard ANYONE in high places say they messed up, that they are sorry and finally that they deserved some sort of repercussion? I was shocked by Richard Clarke in the 9/11 Commission hearings apologize to America for letting us down and it wasn’t even he that let us down. What a breath of fresh air, an actual apology. In Japan if someone high-up screws the pooch they consider suicide. I’d be happy with something like, “I’m at fault, I deserve some sort of punishment.” But not in todays America, a mistake is a reason to cover up and attack the opposition.
That’s says volumns about our country.
Posted by Jon B on Sep 5, 2005 at 3:19 PM Eadora –
Dictators talk about democracy because democracy has a good reputation. But dictators do not practice democracy. Example: People’s Democratic Republic of Korea, which does not belong to the people, nor is it a democracy, nor is it a republic.
By the same token, ideologues on this site talk much about facts, while holding the same relationship with facts that Kim Jong-Il holds with democracy; they would not recognize a fact if it bit them. Please quit talking about ‘facts’ and start incorporating them in your discussions.
“The US Army Corps of Engineers HAD a plan to deal with a class 5 hurricane. They were ignored!”
Do you have a link for this?
Here are some facts for you:
·The NO levees were designed to contain a Cat 3 hurricane. There is no plan to upgrade the 475 miles of NO levees to Cat 5 standards. The only estimate I have ever seen said that the upgrade would take thirty years. The cost would be astronomical.
·A Cat 4 or 5 hurricane cannot be contained with plans, or designs, or models, or bundles of money. Therefore I cannot credit a USACE plan purported to deal with a Cat 5 hurricane, but I would still like to see your link.
·Since Katrina was a Cat 4 hurricane and the NO levees were designed against a Cat 3 event, it was almost guaranteed that the levees would fail. This has been known for years. The levees were built no higher because of cost considerations.
·New Orleans is subsiding. The levees themselves are subsiding. The entire Louisiana and Mississippi coastal marshes are subsiding. As the city subsides, any new levee system will have to be constantly upgraded. How deep of a hole in the ground do you expect to protect by levees? To what purpose?
·The coastal area is subsiding at least partly because the levee system that has been built in the last century or two forces all the silt-bearing Mississippi River water out the mouth of the Mississippi into deep water. Before the levees, high water dissipated out in the Delta and silt constantly restored the marshes, which are now disappearing.
If you wish to deal with real problems, this is the type information you must address. Make-believe ‘Bush lied!’ slogans do not help, and are not true.
Posted by scorp on Sep 5, 2005 at 6:54 PM Scorp,
You are incredibly self-deluded.
Clinton passed legislation in ‘95 to authorize the rebuilding of the levees around N.O. and to shore-up the Gulf Coast, as well to formulate a detailed evacuation plan for these regions.
In ‘03 Bush oversaw the destruction of these plans and funding of the rebuilding so that the funds could go to Iraq.
Now we stand on the verge of having helped to create a new fascist theocracy bound by history and culture to Iran. What a piece of crap!
FEMA reports to and takes orders directly from the President of the United States. There is no middle man. So George W. Bush is 100% to blame for this fiasco. Don’t go trying to place blame on the mayor of New Orleans or Gov. Blanco. They requested aid before the hurricane and didn’t receive it. This operation is completely symptomatic of the inane and total incompetence of the Bush Administration.
The revolution begins now!
Watch the GOP fall from “glory” in ‘06. Every black in America now sees what the Admin. thinks of them.
Posted by Susie Q on Sep 5, 2005 at 7:00 PM Social Democracy: “By the time the next election rolls around the voting public will have forgotten all about it.”
I disagree. What we are witnessing now is the fall of the house of Bush. (Bad Bush Karma)
It began shortly after the last election as the policy failures and scandals of his administration come about full circle and they can no longer suppress the truth. The hurricane has laid bare the illusion of homeland security and directly confronts Bush’s leadership abilities and his priorities. People are fed up with his lies and the scandals inherent in his administration.
I predict that Bush’s approval ratings will continue to fall and further pressure will come from the growing anti-war movement where sentiment is sure to grow during the upcoming demonstrations in Washington later this month.
The medai will side with the growing disapproval ratings of Bush and become more critical of the adminitration and moves they make.
As gas prices continue to spiral up, so too will average Americans more and more begin to question Bush’s energy policy and handling of the situation. Economic growth will suffer and continue a downward trend as a result of high fuel prices. Concern over the mounting debt will grow.
The situation in Iraq will worsen and result in civil war. More American solidiers will die, more average Americans will question the reasoning for a continued occupation there.
The trial of SH will reveal American intervention in pre-war Iraq affairs and more scandal will ensue. More people will question American involvement in the affairs of foreign governments and further question Bush policy.
Fighting in Afghanistan will probably escalate, compounding the need for more troops. The President will cite extraordinary circumstances and reinstate the draft. Result: more student protests, more negativity and resistance to conservative spin.
Controversy will grow with the selections of Supreme Court justices and massive demonstrations (should Roe vs Wade be overturned) will further divide the country.
The idea of rallying the nation’s unity by further conquest (war with Iran) would only draw more negative opinion at this point.
Mid term elections should reflect a growing disapproval of the direction the neocons are taking the country and more pressure will be placed on the Democratic party to respond accordingly.
I see it going more like that.
Posted by Tim Christopher on Sep 5, 2005 at 7:04 PM Make-believe ‘Bush lied!’ slogans do not help, and are not true.”
Make believe your President didn’t say this to journalist Diane Sawyer:
“I don’t think anybody anticipated the breach of the levees.”
George bush is a bullshit President and all those that continue to make excuses for him and his administration are bullshiters, themselves.
Posted by Tim Christopher on Sep 5, 2005 at 7:28 PM You are absolutely right, Tim. This is the beginning of the end for the Bush Crime Family.
Wait until Special Prosecutor Fitzgerald drops the bomb on the Rove/Plame investigation. It’s going to dovetail in nicely with the Downing Street Minutes, and the truth will be there for everyone to see—Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, et al lied LIED LIED LIED, and continue to lie to the American people and Congress. Not just a mantra, as Scorp would like to believe, but cold, hard facts. Can we spell I-M-P-E-A-C-H-M-E-N-T hearings?
Posted by Susie Q on Sep 5, 2005 at 7:36 PM Note to those who want to blame those NOT in charge of FEDERAL disaster response:
Sen. Landrieu said:
“Yesterday, I was hoping President Bush would come away from his tour of the regional devastation triggered by Hurricane Katrina with a new understanding for the magnitude of the suffering and for the abject failures of the current Federal Emergency Management Agency. 24 hours later, the President has yet to answer my call for a cabinet-level official to lead our efforts. Meanwhile, FEMA, now a shell of what it once was, continues to be overwhelmed by the task at hand.
“I understand that the U.S. Forest Service had water-tanker aircraft available to help douse the fires raging on our riverfront, but FEMA has yet to accept the aid. When Amtrak offered trains to evacuate significant numbers of victims – far more efficiently than buses – FEMA again dragged its feet. Offers of medicine, communications equipment and other desperately needed items continue to flow in, only to be ignored by the agency.
“But perhaps the greatest disappointment stands at the breached 17th Street levee. Touring this critical site yesterday with the President, I saw what I believed to be a real and significant effort to get a handle on a major cause of this catastrophe. Flying over this critical spot again this morning, less than 24 hours later, it became apparent that yesterday we witnessed a hastily prepared stage set for a Presidential photo opportunity; and the desperately needed resources we saw were this morning reduced to a single, lonely piece of equipment. The good and decent people of southeast Louisiana and the Gulf Coast – black and white, rich and poor, young and old – deserve far better from their national government.
“Mr. President, I’m imploring you once again to get a cabinet-level official stood up as soon as possible to get this entire operation moving forward regionwide with all the resources – military and otherwise – necessary to relieve the unmitigated suffering and economic damage that is unfolding.”
And the video at this link puts the lunacy of this federal fiasco in clear perspective:
http://www.overspun.com/?p=1549&fark;
Cheney couldn’t even bother to cut his vacation short. What a “compassionate conservative”!
Posted by Susie Q on Sep 5, 2005 at 8:09 PM The blame Bush crowd is going to bury the Democrats. One can go back to any event in the history of man and find a report that states not enough money was given to prevent whatever damage said event caused. That is why hindsight is always 20/20. When Bush maid the statement that nobody knew the levies would break, he meant after the storm had past, when everyone thought the worst was over. So how is Bush at fault when the state of Louisiana’s own evacuation plan called for the poor and needy to be evacuated on school and municipal buses? As far as I can tell it should have been the New Orleans Mayor and the Governor of Louisiana who got those people out of harms way. As for getting the people help after the fact, FEMA does not bring supplies to the areas of need, they give the supplies to the states when they are requested, then the states distribute them. Personally I do not want the Feds coming in and taking over, EVER! It also appears that neither do Louisiana’s leaders, they want the supplies and the control of it (it will help them get re-elected, since they can not rely on their service). So again where is Bush at fault? Now I will admit help has not gotten there fast enough, but I think that is directly related to how big the federal government has become, and all of the bureaucracy that comes with it, and I will be the first to admit Bush has not helped with this at all. I think the biggest problem with this disaster is the lack of individual responsibility. When the hurricanes hit Florida last year I made sure my family had enough food and water. What we are seeing in New Orleans is liberalism at work, except it does not work. Most of these people think someone else should take care of them. After all that is how they have lived their lives up until this disaster, and that is how they will get through it. The problem is when it comes down to it you need to be responsible for yourself, and we are seeing this daily. Oh and one more thing for the anti-gun crowd, the people shooting up New Orleans are the same people that would not be turning in their guns if guns are outlawed. The chaos in New Orleans proves that government at all levels can and will not protect or feed you when you need it most, it is your responsibility.
The voters of this country need to get rid of the blame Bush crowd and the radical right, they are the ones that are going to destroy our great nation.
THINK 4 YOURSELF
Posted by think4yourself on Sep 5, 2005 at 10:10 PM Think 4 Yourself. Do you actually understand what your handle means? Read Rabbits words they are for you.
You have the standard delusions of people who do not think for themselves. Evidence the fact that youy somehow think that there are only two sides. You believe that if they don’t support Bush they must be democrats. Half your people don’t vote, that isn’t for laziness you clown. They donb’t want any of the idiots they are given to choose from. Many people, most on this thread probably think little better of the Democraps who are probably as close to anhiliation as the Repugs.
You have never had a thought of your own have you think4yourself? If you had you might realise what a ridiculous statement you just made.
“The voters of this country need to get rid of the blame Bush crowd and the radical right, they are the ones that are going to destroy our great nation.”
Ha Ha Ha! Goose! That includes everyone. Bush represents the radical right. Everyone else blames Bush for this fact. Read all the posts here and realise what a complete numbskull you are. By all means pretend you are not, Rabbit does enjoy kicking sand in the faces of cretins like you.
Think about the following for yourself, thuink4yourself.
scorp, why don’t you answer the Rabbit? He gave you a simple challenge. scorp lets see if you are capable of developing an opinion based upon fact, or Rabbit shall taunt you into tears which should be easy cause you seem like a little sicko.
” Last September, a Category 5 hurricane battered the small island of Cuba with 160-mile-per-hour winds. More than 1.5 million Cubans were evacuated to higher ground ahead of the storm. Although the hurricane destroyed 20,000 houses, no one died.
What is Cuban President Fidel Castro’s secret? According to Dr. Nelson Valdes, a sociology professor at the University of New Mexico, and specialist in Latin America, “the whole civil defense is embedded in the community to begin with. People know ahead of time where they are to go.”
“Cuba’s leaders go on TV and take charge,” said Valdes. Contrast this with George W. Bush’s reaction to Hurricane Katrina. The day after Katrina hit the Gulf Coast, Bush was playing golf. He waited three days to make a TV appearance and five days before visiting the disaster site. In a scathing editorial on Thursday, the New York Times said, “nothing about the president’s demeanor yesterday - which seemed casual to the point of carelessness - suggested that he understood the depth of the current crisis.”
“Merely sticking people in a stadium is unthinkable” in Cuba, Valdes said. “Shelters all have medical personnel, from the neighborhood. They have family doctors in Cuba, who evacuate together with the neighborhood, and already know, for example, who needs insulin.”
They also evacuate animals and veterinarians, TV sets and refrigerators, “so that people aren’t reluctant to leave because people might steal their stuff,” Valdes observed. “
Go on all you humane and good Americans go and invade Cuba, you can see how much they need what you’ve got. What about Chavez.? How about you do what you really want and assasinate him, never mind he is democratically elected, unlike Bush. Never mind he has given more and faster aif to the victims New Orleans disaster.
No wonder the Iraqi’s are thrilled to be headed towards an an American style “democracy”. No wonder they welcomed your troops with open arms and flowers. No wonder they are just getting more and more supportive of your troops day by day. They must be so grateful that the Americans are ready to sacrifice a whole city as well as 300 Billion dollars so far to kill, poison and maim them in their own once great cities.
think4yourself, if you can.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 6, 2005 at 12:40 AM By the way think4yourself, if you ever learn how to, think that is, think about how many times Cuba has invaded other coutries. Despite being under more real threat over the years from Belligerant and greedy Americans. You wombats could learn not only about humanity and fiscal responsibility from the Cubans and Venezualans, you proably could learn a lot about how real democracy works. That’s real Rabbit doesn’t mean that meaningless slogan you Americans spout.
Nothing sounds less like democracy or freedom than those words in the mouth of an American.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 6, 2005 at 12:45 AM It is so easy to bury the few remaining Junta supporters, they have nothing but rising hysteria and louder prayers.
Scorp, thinky, do you realise what Fidel Catsro is doing? He is protecting the freedoms and way of life of his people.
Chavez? Not only the above but he is extending a humane helping hans to the ones who need it most in your farcical state. He is sending more than a thousand doctors, heating oil and supplies to help people who were calling for his assasination a few weeks ago. Chavez stands ten feet tall next to your puny cretin in the BIG BOOTS and Hat. Bush doesn’t stand tall enough, in his BIG BOOTS, even on your shoulders, to blow Chavez.
When Clinton lied, Nobody died.
You are all wearing the Blue dress now!
SHAME on you.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 6, 2005 at 12:55 AM Yoh! Think4yourself!
Quote:
“What we are seeing in New Orleans is liberalism at work”You might do you well to review the thread, or perhaps read through it for the first time.
You are making a Jackass of yourself.You will be pleased to note with your review, If you undertake it.
That what is being offered here is not right or left wing politics.
But FACTS, derived from the post mortem being done on the “CORPSE” of a major American city. A city that has succumbed to Bumbling Incompetence.Quote scorp
“…….it was almost guaranteed that the levees would fail. This has been known for years. The levees were built no higher because of cost considerations”EXACTLY!! Due to the FACT of Bush Administration Budget cuts!
Quote scorp
“Before the levees, high water dissipated out in the Delta and silt constantly restored the marshes, which are now disappearing.”EXACTLY!! Due to the Bush Administration opening them up to development!
Against the warnings of The US Corps of Engineers”!YOU GUYS ARE SOME PIECE OF WORK!
You even quote the FACTS that destroy your stand on this issue.
The very facts that we have repeatedly tried to bring to your attention.Yet you stubbornly fail “and / or refuse”, to perceive the very real and direct implications of those facts.
You have just given here, a blatant demonstration and proof of your own stubborn myopia.
A brazen and in your face, “Self Delusion,” and “Intellectual Dishonesty,” of the worst sort.The hilarious / lamentable, part being, that you probably thought you were scoring a point! While delivering yourself a very “Black Eye”
You just shot your own foot off fool!
And you have the audacity to tell us to “Think for Ourselves”
The Mark of a “True Believer” FER SHURR! And an ugly “MARK” it is
It never ceases to amaze me to see deluded people rationalizing and justifying the indefensible.
I pity you the day of awakening,
When the light finally reveals to you the blood on all our hands
That is the result of the corrupt policies
You so cravenly, espouse and defendDID THE NEW ORLEANS CATASROPHE HAVE TO HAPPEN?
http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/search/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_i id=1001051313
Posted by Eadora on Sep 6, 2005 at 1:20 AM We make a wicked team Eadora, you sure can see what gets Rabbit so hopping mad can’t ya. This feels like the day has come, we must ride this swell, somehow surf it to reclaim our planet. Rabbit believes the day is upon us. Now or Never. We can pause a moment to gather the remaining ones who are finally awakening, help them on their feet. Soon we will have to recognise that some are lost for good.
You will be abandoned to the Karma which awaits you, foolish ones. Awaken now or you will sleep forever.
Thus saith the Rabbit.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 6, 2005 at 1:59 AM When the hurricanes hit Florida last year I made sure my family had enough food and water. What we are seeing in New Orleans is liberalism at work, except it does not work. Most of these people think someone else should take care of them.
What a thoughtless elitist pig—so typical of right-wing nuts. Sheep go to heaven and goats do to hell, eh? Next, your clan will be saying that the poor folks of New Orleans provoked the wrath of God because of their heathen ways.
When Bush maid the statement that nobody knew the levies would break, he meant after the storm had past, when everyone thought the worst was over.
You mean, just when Bush thought the worst was over. Everyone else concerned was certainly aware of the possibility of a breach.
Evacuation plans go as far as their funding and Bush is responsible for cutting that funding—and diveting those resources to his bullshit war in Iraq.He’s more concerned with Iraq than the working class people of this country and so are you.
government at all levels can and will not protect or feed you when you need it most, it is your responsibility.
Every man, woman and child for themselves - that’s your compassionate conservative idealism alright. Actually, you sound like just another stupid redneck.
Posted by Tim Christopher on Sep 6, 2005 at 2:00 AM Rabbit,
Typical. Do not like what is said, so call them names. You are right I should not classify the blame Bush crowd as soley democrats, but they will bring the party down. What I should have said is get rid of the extremes on both sides and we will be better off.Eadora,
As for liberalism at work. I am talking of all the people on T.V. wanting to blame someone else for the situation they are in, and then wanting someone else to fix it. This goes for the Mayor and Governor who did nothing with all the buses sitting flooded in a parking lot. Yet now they want to blame bush.Tim,
More name calling. I never said do not help. I just said it is your resonsibility to help yourself and your family. One needs to only look at the chaos in New Orleans to see why. I just do not see it as Bush’s fault. As for the government not protecting you or feeding you, I was not advocating this I was just pointing out the cold hard TRUTH. Look at new Orleans. How many died because they relied on the government. I just want poeple to understand it is not the govenments job to feed and protect you and when you need it most they will not be there.As for the war. I did not know th ewar was in this article. It seems to always be about the war though. Or 2000. I just have a couple of questions; Did you support Clinton bombing Iraq all eight years? Did you support Kosovo? I just want to know to know where you are coming from.
As for me being an elitist that is a new one. I do not think I am better than anyone. I just feel the best way to change minds, others and myself included, is to talkthings out. Not name call. And you guys think you are teaching me a leason.
Man am I glad I found you guys.
Thinking 4 Myself
Posted by think4yourself on Sep 6, 2005 at 3:26 AM think4yourself.
No son, stick with the first one, it says more about you.
Rabbit didn’t just call you names, he just did it better than you can. WARNING! You don’t know when you are well off, right now Rabbit is being gentle and patient with you, TRUST Rabbit sunshine, when it comes to “no fun” then getting into fight of any sort with Rabbit is last stop.
No, Rabbit has instead offerred some simple words of counsel to enable you to understand your world a lot better. Feel better about yourself, proud, (not the same as Arrogance) then maybe start contributing to the solution instead of the problem.
That way you win, everybody wins.
If you were to convince us of your way, lots of people more are going to die and get killed, certainly. Nobody is likely ever to see what once passed for freedom in yours or my childrens lifetimes.If you think I a Rabbit, am going to stand by and allow all my ideals, all of them, and what Rabbit believes is yours too. If you think a Rabbit, would stand by and let that happen because a small, identifiable minority of sick deluded people like you couldn’t get the simple points Rabbit has given you, FACTS are the only things upon which an opinion can be built which justifies threatening the ideals of others. Because that guarantees, GUARANTEES the others will threaten those same ideals of ours.
IT IS IMPOSSIBLE TO WIN ANY SECURITY FOR YOURSELVES BY THREATENING THE IDEALS OF OTHERS.
The same ideals we all hold dear. You may believe there are different people in the world but except for a very small percentage of very sick people, there are not.
They all mostly hold the following ideals as the only things worth dying or killing for. So what is your problem? Are you some sort of cretin or can you answer rabbit’s very fair and civil questions. But it does require thinking, so prepare yourself if you can.
You have not read all of the posts above or you would be aware that you have not been merely insulted, which is your own doing, we aint rude people. You have been given a couple of facts, which are easily verifiable, one of them you already admitted.
Give us your opinion about where this places the USA on a scale of morality just now.
That is important, because everything you claim about your country which should be taken on faith, you base upon that thing we shall label, MORALITY.
Unless you address this question, it is asked in all seriousness, not to score a point against you, but for you. Rabbit does not love you, yet. He has simply not given up yet that you might yet awaken from the spell of the evil wizard. Don’t be so juvenile, as to use those words as some “proof” that Rabbit is unhinged or something, its a joke son, and anybody with half a clue can see that.
If you do not address the question, based upon the two facts given, facts, not opinions, then Rabbit will paint the walls of this cyber room with your blood, and you will limp away a broken and dissillusioned person. All without breaking a sweat, and enjoying every minute.
The Rabbit is offerring you a fig branch, (with a fig on it), don’t make him beat you to mash with it.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 6, 2005 at 4:14 AM IDEALS as defined by Rabbit, for which he would die/kill.
Love, Food, Shelter, Health and a good future for our children.
They are none of them given, they can all be lost, nobody can gain anything from threatening those of others.
Now that young wombats, is an opinion.
You are welcome to challenge that opinion, but there are otherwise only two facts, Rabbit has presented for you opinion. If you can’t do it, please go away. If you are only here for a fight, go away, you will lose. If you are somewhere in your heart or mind feeling a twinge of doubt about the foundations of your world. Then children, lay down your poor defenses, they are not protecting you, they cannot. Your opinions are not your opinions, they are a standard program. Ever read George Orwell’s 1984? Of course not. You probably still argue against people who use its obvious relevance, on the basis of some understanding given you in an editorial somewhere. You talk about facts and give them away so freely when in truth you possess few. Only opinions.
thinky
Read all Rabbit’s words, they unlike yours are simple and easy to understand. He adresses all them to you personally, and any who agree with you. If you cannot answer Rabbit, then you cannot. Don’t pretend he hasn’t presented two facts which deserve an opinion. Don’t start name calling because you think your fears are ours. We fear only one thing about you and that is ignorance. Your type ignorance is fundamental to the fears of most of the planet at the moment, and you don’t even realise it.
Last offer of the fig Branch.
Rabbit holds branch aloft. Nose wriggling, ears twitching, eyes inscrutable.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 6, 2005 at 4:49 AM Why hasn’t the obvious question regarding the anemic National Guard response to the Katrina tragedy been asked of the White House and Bush? Namely, is the poor response due to the fact that the National Guard has been so gutted by the deployments to Iraq, Afghanistan and elsewhere that they can not respond in a timely manner? The resources just aren’t there.
Also, this seems to be a managerial bungle. That one is easy to figure out. From the earliest days of his administration, GW Bush has consistently rewarded the ones who screwed up, as long as they would dutifully recite the party line. Meanwhile, the ones who would point out the errors, the sloppiness and the corruption would be either demoted, fired or forced to retire. After five years of this, when the only ones left are the butt-kissers, who have no management skills, other than having been blessed with rubber lips, don’t you think that having the lackeys left calling the shots is having one helluva negative effect on the Katrina response?
Greg Bacon
Ava, MO
Posted by Greg Bacon on Sep 6, 2005 at 5:50 AM See here Bush lovers, things seem to be going quite well. They just shot five defence contractors. The troops who are not helping anyone that is, but the shooting is well under way.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,16494579^12377,00. .htmlWonder how long before the first reporters get shot?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 6, 2005 at 7:43 AM Rabbit,
Here are my points again:One can go back to any event in the history of man and find a report that states not enough money was given to prevent whatever damage said event caused. That is why hindsight is always 20/20.
It should have been the New Orleans Mayor and the Governor of Louisiana who got those people out of harms way.
As for getting the people help after the fact, FEMA does not bring supplies to the areas of need, they give the supplies to the states when they are requested, then the states distribute them.
Personally I do not want the Feds coming in and taking over, EVER!
Now I will admit help has not gotten there fast enough, but I think that is directly related to how big the federal government has become, and all of the bureaucracy that comes with it, and I will be the first to admit Bush has not helped with this at all.
The chaos in New Orleans proves that government at all levels can and will not protect or feed you when you need it most, it is your responsibility.
The voters of this country need to get rid of the (extreme left) and the radical right; they are the ones that are going to destroy our great nation.
As to your two questions.
1. The guard is now there, but I do not like that they are there. One cannot help with a machine gun in his hand. Was it not you who said they would be shooting people soon?2.The helicopters are there now. It takes time. Now I have admitted it has taken to long.
Three days before the hurricane hit New Orleans it was forecast to hit us in Florida again. So according to you we should have had all the guard in Florida. I have been dealing with hurricanes for years and anyone that has knows they will change direction at the last moment. Look at Charley of 2004.
As for getting the people help I will spell it out again: the way it works in America is the Federal government does not handle civil affairs. It is supposed to begin with the individual, then the local government, then the state, and then the Federal government. Unlike Castro, the people in charge of evacuating the people in Louisiana did not do their job. As for after the fact we should all help out. My family is, and even my six year old will be donating $10. And if you think I am rich or whatever, I took home $15,000 last year. I am also in no way supporting Bush, there are lots of things he has done wrong. I am just tired of hearing that everything bad in the world is Bush’s fault.
I am not here to argue. I thought this was a discussion. Hopefully the threats, “I’ll cover the walls with your blood”, and name calling will stop. And somehow I am the juvenile. The only way to help others is to help yourself first.
I will be glad to answer all of your questions for I am not going anywhere.
Think
Posted by think4yourself on Sep 6, 2005 at 12:21 PM Yo, Think -
I count fifteen moonbats with tinfoil hat on this site, if the various incarnations of leporidae are actually different people. The poor bastards have us surrounded.
They actually say they believe that President Bush lied.
They have only one theme; criticize the Bush Administration for every silly little item that pops into their silly little heads.
They persist in this one-track behavior over a period of years. They have successively lost the 2000, 2002, and 2004 elections by ever increasing margins, because most people will not vote for moonbats; the louder the irrational rants, the fewer votes they get.
If madness is repeating the same mistake over and over in the hope of achieving a different result, come see the inmates in their asylum.
Posted by scorp on Sep 6, 2005 at 1:12 PM Rabbit,
When I say think 4 yourself I mean do not let one source decide what is happening for you. Check all sources (that is how I found ITT). The people shot were not defense contractors they were shooting at the defense contractors, the police then shot all but one of them. Just because ONE source says what you want to be true does not make it so.
Think
Posted by think4yourself on Sep 6, 2005 at 1:31 PM Tim Christopher wrote:
“‘When the hurricanes hit Florida last year I made sure my family had enough food and water. What we are seeing in New Orleans is liberalism at work, except it does not work. Most of these people think someone else should take care of them.’
What a thoughtless elitist pig—so typical of right-wing nuts. Sheep go to heaven and goats do to hell, eh? Next, your clan will be saying that the poor folks of New Orleans provoked the wrath of God because of their heathen ways.”
I hate to be the one to break it to you, but a evangelical Christian leader has already done this. According to him, the disaster was God’s punishment as a result of the immorality of the city of New Orleans. I read this in my local newspaper, and it almost made me sick.
Posted by Steve-O on Sep 6, 2005 at 2:27 PM Thinky says: One can go back to any event in the history of man and find a report that states not enough money was given to prevent whatever damage said event caused. That is why hindsight is always 20/20.
Rabbit says: That is the most ridiculously generalised piece of overweaning drivel, it is not discussable, it is undefinable, prove just one of the massive assumptions you make. If that was your opening shot Rabbit can’t wait for the next pearl.
Thinky says: It should have been the New Orleans Mayor and the Governor of Louisiana who got those people out of harms way.
Rabbit says. How d*ck head, carrying them on their soldiers.? Of course Rabbit will not take this clap more seriously.
Thinky says: As for getting the people help after the fact, FEMA does not bring supplies to the areas of need, they give the supplies to the states when they are requested, then the states distribute them.
Rabbit says: Actually while you are wallowing in your self granted afterglow of intelligent wit, let Rabbit point out the fact that FEMA appears to be not only doing nothing but is actually getting in the way of rescue efforts from the start. They are actively hindering any and all supllies getting to the stricken in this case. There are a few links here, but don’t start getting a hard on again because there are only a few, question them and Rabbit will bury you in sources, reputable to prove anything Rabbit would call a fact.
Nagin telling Bush to move arse.
http://rense.com/general67/tofeds.htm
Fema head a disaster in himself.
http://www.warandpiece.com/blogdirs/002486.html
FEMA turns back food and water.
http://rense.com/general67/femm.htm
http://rense.com/general67/eyewit.htm
Bush warned about levees last year.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9190580/
Why bother with dittoheads, you don’t look at, read most of the posts you are replying to so why would you look at an article. Just because they are many rense, they are all sourced. Anyway anything Rabbit says is fact you can question, he will prove. Rabbit will not argue his opinions. You are not even welcome to hear Rabbit’s opinions mostly and you are incapable of comprehending such things of pure elegance and beauty. Rabbit deals in facts. Facts against your opinions.
Thinky says: Personally I do not want the Feds coming in and taking over, EVER!
Rabbit says: Too bad, because they won’t ask you when the time comes. Can anybody of you other “Tin foil hatters” out there believe this dittohead. He has a mind like silly string.
more…
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 6, 2005 at 3:44 PM Thinky says: Now I will admit help has not gotten there fast enough, but I think that is directly related to how big the federal government has become, and all of the bureaucracy that comes with it, and I will be the first to admit Bush has not helped with this at all.
Rabbit says: Now thinky, you are not the first one to say this. It has been said for days by many millions of people while you resisted even that much. Don’t go claiming you invented the wheel.
Think says: The chaos in New Orleans proves that government at all levels can and will not protect or feed you when you need it most, it is your responsibility.
Rabbit says: The chaos in New Orleans proves that no level of the American goverment is capable of protecting or feeding it’s citizens in a real live disater such as happens all over the world on a daily basis. It is all our responsibility or how can you claim you have a nation. Why are you not just an autonomous collective. It isn’t goverment which has failed, it is US government and it is a failure of historic proportions.
Thinky says: The voters of this country need to get rid of the (extreme left) and the radical right; they are the ones that are going to destroy our great nation.
Rabbit says: The extreme left only exists as a myth. You are the extreme right, or at least it’s supporter.
Thinky says: As to your two questions.
1. The guard is now there, but I do not like that they are there. One cannot help with a machine gun in his hand. Was it not you who said they would be shooting people soon?Rabbit says: Some national guard and many more troops, 40, 000 are now in NO, they have machine guns in their hands and if they are there to help they have a funny way of doing it. As for you not liking the troops in Iraq, crap. You are a Dittohead, you have been cheering for the invasion of Iraq since day one, you may be abandoning that ship now like a rat from a sinking ship, but the troops are there thanks to dittoheads like you.
Thinky says: 2.The helicopters are there now. It takes time. Now I have admitted it has taken to long.
Rabbit says: The helicopters are not rescuing too many people, Rabbit suggests they are there to shoot people. It hasn’t “TAKEN” too long to get things happening, nothing has happened yet basically at all. It doesn’t even qualify as a rescue effort. It is a military assault, in force. 40, 000 is a small invasion force for a small world power.
Thinky says: Three days before the hurricane hit New Orleans it was forecast to hit us in Florida again. So according to you we should have had all the guard in Florida.
Rabbit says: According to Rabbit nothing of the sort, where do you get your fantasies from? If Rabbits opinion is being asked then he thinks that if military is the only way you bozos now how to do anything then perhaps a medium sized rescue effort like this could be mounted in , oh 48 hours. You could get an invasion force of this size into a sovereign nation in less. Shit, with only three times more troops they overan Iraq and took Bahgdad in the time that has so far elapsed without serious progress.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 6, 2005 at 3:45 PM Thinky says: I have been dealing with hurricanes for years and anyone that has knows they will change direction at the last moment. Look at Charley of 2004.
Rabbit says: How exactly have you been dealing with hurricanes? Rabbit has been in a few, some bigger than this one. Other countries including third world countries have had much bigger storms recently and managed to lose not a soul. despite in Cuba for example losing twenty thousand houses, cat 5 storm 160 mph. YThe Cubans with less warning saved everybody, and their pets even. Look at youself you are a cretin. You are actually making your only half way decipherable points for our side, you don’t even know what the hell you are arguing about do you?, you are a cretin.
Thinky says: (Nothing here but some weak generalisations some for some against his own arguments.)
Rabbit won’t waste his time the cretin is arguing with himself now.
Thinky says: I am not here to argue. I thought this was a discussion. Hopefully the threats, “I’ll cover the walls with your blood”, and name calling will stop. And somehow I am the juvenile. The only way to help others is to help yourself first.
Rabbit says: The walls are red, and it looks like your blood. You are only here to argue. You are not capable of partciipating in a discussion because you lack the basic tools to structure a cordinated argument. You have no clues, you are nearly ready to disapear up your own backside. You havn’t even got a point.
No idea of what constitutes a fact. Cannot formulate an opinion based upon provable fact. Cannot defend his pseudo opinions against argument based only upon fact. Even when facts are clearly labelled for your edification, you would as soon substitute some sentence worthy of George Bush at his most inarticulate, and another opinion to boot.
Do you and scorp actually think that if you take one of your diitohead opinions and label it a fact it becomes one, like magic? That is the sort of thinking that George Bush has employed to bring your nation to its present state of dismal affairs.
Dittoheads, while you are fiddling with yourselves, your country is in the throes of alkl the worst people like me have been warning you of. Your country is collapsing into a third world state and marshall law is being declared as a massive military force prepares to “re-take” a city which was lost by none other than the KING of F*ckups.
George Bush has lost a whole city from no more help than a medium size storm, foreseen and forewarned. If there anybody else to blame then Rabbit wonders how Amercia has survived this long. So much for great power. A feather is knocking you flat. You are still arguing for a dream that is dead.
Rabbit shall deal with scorp tomorrow. Sleep he now shall.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 6, 2005 at 3:46 PM Rabbit,
Back to name calling.
I’ll give you my first point is general, yet it is still true.
As to how should they have gotten them out, there are 2000 buses underwater in one parking lot in New Orleans. Their own evacuation plan called for using city and school buses to get the poor out.
Again I will say it again sense you do no tlive in America. The local government is who is responsible not the federal. This administration tried to offer help the day after the storm to the Governor of Louisiana, but she said give me 24 hours.
The people have survived in this great nation because of the people not GOVERNMENT!!!!!!!!!
The president does not handle domestic affairs.
Period…. We the people like it that way and we will keep it that way.Your credibility has been lost as to your sources, because you just proved my point with the five contracters were killed story. You went with what you want to be true instead of trying to gather the FACTS. It is all about the FACTS, right?
Notice how rabbit did not respond to that point.
He just ran with a story that made his point and ignored everything else to try and prove his point.So what does he do? Calls me a D*ck Head. Great discussion.
By the way in most of my postings I have critized the administration and the radical right. So how am I a dittohead?
The extreme left does excist, they are anti-capitalist anti-american. The people of this country see them for who they are, and has been voting them out of office since 1994.
So call me some names, threaten me and let the people of the world see you as you are.
Think
Posted by think4yourself on Sep 6, 2005 at 4:43 PM Rabbit deals in FACTS when:
“(they) prove anything Rabbit would call a fact”.
One cannot pick and choose facts. A fact can stand alone.
Obviously you only get your “facts” from blogs.
Blogs are not the news. They are OPINION.The disaster area is 90,000 square miles. It is a lot bigger than New Orleans. But we should listen to you about this disaster sense you get all the facts 20,000 miles away.
My point on dealing with hurricanes or natural disasters is we all know to have enough food and water for a week, because in our system it takes time for the states to request help. Granted it needs to be faster and we will change some things in how we deal with them in the furture.
To compare New Orleans to other places around the world is like comparing apples to organes. New Orleans is below sea level with water on all sides. Everyone new this and the LOCAL leaders did nothing (remember all the buses underwater).
You say this is a discussion, but you try and pin a label to me. All of your asumptions have been wrong. Try asking me. I will answer all questions, without resorting to child like behavior.
Think
Posted by think4yourself on Sep 6, 2005 at 5:26 PM Hey it looks like another storm off the coast of Florida. I will start it off for all of you.
It is Bush’s fault! Where is the president with such an emergency on the horizon? There is a storm coming and Bush did not give us all the money to rebuild the sea walls on the east coast so once again he is going to KILL the poor.
To all of you that live in Florida or Georgia, do not do anything to prepare. There is no need for you to take any personal responsibilty for your safty. So, sit back and when you have nothing, blame Bush.
If I did not say this then I would be called an “elitist pig” because I think people should begin preparations by taking care of themselves.
This sounds absoluty absurded doesn’t it?
Now can you see where I am coming from?
I’ll be out there helping. Where will you be?
Oh yeah Bush also caused it and he hates you!
Think
Posted by think4yourself on Sep 6, 2005 at 5:41 PM Think -
You are trying to have a serious discussion. The lagomorph is on an ego trip, playing games. Never the twain shall meet. Your best possible outcome is that he will waste your time.
Free advice, worth what it costs.
Posted by scorp on Sep 6, 2005 at 7:23 PM Scorp,
I hear you, but the best way to defeat socialism/communism is to let these people speak their mind. And if they continue to use the same tatics they will not convince a single soul of changing their stance on any given issue. That is why they are being defeated here in the states.
You get more flies with honey than vinegar.
Posted by think4yourself on Sep 6, 2005 at 7:49 PM Rabbit,
I’ll give you another chance to discuss this rationally. Although, I fear Scorp might be right and you will do nothing of the sort. I am now off work, so I have had time to review your links. If you keep up your name calling tactics you will never change anyone’s mind, you will only be speaking to like minded people. Not much is learned when like minded people repeat the same thing back and forth to each other, and I think even the mighty Rabbit could not disagree with that. Hopefully you will come around and discuss things, you know like ask why I fell this way or that way and I could do the same. I want to hear the opinion of all walks of life. It does not sound like you do.
So I will read your links and rebut any as I see fit. I will also let you know if I agree. So here it goes:
Nagin telling Bush to move arse.
http://rense.com/general67/tofeds.htm
New Orleans Mayor
To Feds, Bush -
‘Get Off Your Asses’
9-3-5First of for the source, do not put too much faith in CNN, they have admitted the did not cover the whole truth in Iraq during the ‘90s. If they will lie about poor people then, why would they not lie now? That’s right you would rather it was still the same in Iraq as it was in the ‘90s, I forgot. As for the interview: In America the mayor of a city does not ask for something from the President, even if they go on CNN. A Mayor asks the Governor. The Governor would then ask for Federal assistance. He is just trying to point a finger at Bush when he is the one that should have gotten people out before the storm. Again, 2000 buses sitting underwater, when the evacuation plan called for the removal of the poor with these said buses. If Bush had done what you say he should have done, the left in America would hammer him. This is because the federal Government would be over-stepping its bounds. The Federal Government does not handle domestic affairs.
Fema head a disaster in himself.
http://www.warandpiece.com/blogdirs/002486.html
FEMA Head FIRED From Horse Association in 2001
Okay, a blog using other blogs. Fact or Opinion you decide. As for the NYTimes piece, (a source that had to fire multiple employees for lying and fabricating stories within the last couple years) it is not FEMA’s responsibility to know where the people that need help are until after they are notified. Again, it is up to the LOCAL government to tell FEMA. FEMA is not in charge. They play a supporting role, always have. They do it that way in Florida and they will do it next week after this next storm. A quote from the Times that helps argue my point on the Fed being to big,
“FEMA should not be hindered by a top-heavy bureaucracy when they are needed to act swiftly to save lives,”
Remember when I said on the fifth,
“Now I will admit help has not gotten there fast enough, but I think that is directly related to how big the federal government has become, and all of the bureaucracy that comes with it, and I will be the first to admit Bush has not helped with this at all.”
The rest of the article does not bare anything that has to do with your point of using this as a source. I do not know if this link convinces me of anything. You can do better than a blog and a NYT article. Can’t you?
Posted by think4yourself on Sep 6, 2005 at 10:37 PM countinued….....
FEMA turns back food and water.
http://rense.com/general67/femm.htmFEMA Turned Back
Water/Fuel, Cut N.O.
Communications Lines
From ML
9-5-5
I cannot say if this happened or not. I can only use what I know to be true. Because it is on a blog does not make it true. I have seen FEMA in action 1st hand. Have you? I have people on mine and my wives side of the family that have spent many days/weeks assisting in hurricane ravaged areas, and the FEMA we know would not refuse anything. What is probably the case is; there are only a couple of ways in and out of New Orleans right now and thugs were shooting at the help. If you, Rabbit, were trying to gain order in a mess like this would you let any and everyone enter that city? Now remember, the disaster area is 90,000 square miles. New Orleans is about 300 square miles. So there are lots of other people, MILLIONS more, that could also use the water without putting them at risk. What do you do? Again, this is a link to someone’s personal experience, their OPINION as to what is the reason for the turn around of the water. Not changing any minds yet, Rabbit.FEMA turns back food and water.
http://rense.com/general67/eyewit.htmEyewitness Report
From New Orleans
From Alicia Jrapko
ajrapko@yahoo.com
9-6-5Again with one persons story to describe what has happened to MILLIONS. And the other point about the poor not able to get out, IT WAS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE LOCAL AND STATE GOVERNMENT TO GET THEM OUT BEFORE THE STORM. If they could not handle this BEFORE the storm they should have followed the proper channels. But you see the Democrat leaders of Louisiana choose not to use their own evacuation plan (THE BUSES) to try and save as many as possible. Still do not have me Rabbit.
Bush warned about levees last year.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9190580/
Yet Another Gulf War
Up Against It: Buffeted by Iraq, gas prices and the fury over his response to Katrina, Bush faces a new storm of his own.Newsweek. Enough said. They flushed their own credibility down the toilet. Did you know that at Camp Gitmo they do not have toilets like you and me? The U.S. installed the same “hole in the floor” (they have these in the Mid-East) style of bathrooms for the prisoners. But why check FACTS when you have people like Rabbit blindly following whatever they say! As for the article, so John Breaux, the former Democratic Louisiana senator said he talked to Bush about it last year. The President talks to lots of people about lots of things. I have also stated that what Bush meant was after the worst was over, many people here in the states, not necessarily in Louisiana, did not anticipate the levies breaking. Basically you think if Bush gave all of the requested money all would be fine. That is asinine. The funding that was requested was not to increase the entire wall height or strength. Flooding would have still taken place. So the best way to have helped was to get the people out. And we are back to the local authorities.
Nice try Rabbit.
All I have heard you say is you are all FACTs. Opinions are not FACTs. Blogs are opinions. Therefore, Blogs are not FACT. You are the one with the blinders on, seeing everything as if there is a Bush conspiracy. We are a nation of law, and Bush cannot, and should not over-step his role.
So basically what you want to look at is a 300 square mile area and judge Bush on how he is handling a 90,000 square mile catastrophe! That is 0.33% of the disaster area!
Oh yeah, what about your source of FACTs on the shooting of “contractors”? That did not happen either. But why research something you so want to be true?
Anyway go ahead and start your research now on what Bush knew before this next storm hits Florida. I just know he is praying that poor people will die and his brother Jeb is along for the ride.
Think
p.s. I did not have to threaten you or call you a D*CK HEAD to get my point across.
Posted by think4yourself on Sep 6, 2005 at 10:39 PM Rabbit,
Here are some links for my case. Hear them out if you will.
The officials in Louisiana even said you are on your own.
http://www.drudgereport.com/flash3kt.htm
Mayor Nagin: Gov. Blanco Delayed Rescue
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/9/5/234033.shtml
Man shoots at rescue helicopter
http://www.breitbart.com/?id=2005-09-06_D8CEVR5O3&show_article=1Here is an op-ed on how socialism created this disaster with the welfare state.
Notice Rabbit I am saying up front this is opinion, based on facts, but it is still opinion.
http://tiadaily.com/php-bin/news/printerFriendly.php?id=1026&PHPSESSID=21133 36cb5a4189d83f46e65529e087d5
Here are some quotes from seven weeks ago right out of the New Orleans Times-Picayune on July 24th 2005.“In scripted appearances being recorded now, officials such as Mayor Ray Nagin, local Red Cross Executive Director Kay Wilkins and City Council President Oliver Thomas drive home the word that the city does not have the resources to move out of harm’s way an estimated 134,000 people without transportation.”
(Does not have the resources? Remember the buses?)
“In the video, made by the anti-poverty agency Total Community Action, they urge those people to make arrangements now by finding their own ways to leave the city in the event of an evacuation.
(Oh, when it came down to it, the individuals had to manage for themselves.)
“You’re responsible for your safety, and you should be responsible for the person next to you,” Wilkins said in an interview. “If you have some room to get that person out of town, the Red Cross will have a space for that person outside the area. We can help you.”
Posted by think4yourself on Sep 6, 2005 at 11:30 PM Scorp was promised, so here is cut and paste from Vietnam thread which says all Rabbit needs
scorp says: “President and Commander-in-Chief, determined that the only way to end terrorism and to bring peace and democracy to the Middle East was to end terrorism and to bring peace and democracy to the Middle East.”
scorp are you sure Dubya isn’t writing your speeches?
Maybe you write his?
There is something about the lucidity and logic of these words that so reminds Rabbit of Potus.
BTW scorp, Rabbit not any shade of Liberal. Bet you can’t guess what Rabbit is. When he tells you he not a Repug either, you will surely be stumped.
What else is there after all, eh, scorpy?
scorp the most frustrating part of talking to someone like you and thinky is the following.
The more one gets into it the more apparent your level of intellect, lucidity and general knowledge. Powers of deduction and expression.
Rabbit would happily engage in an equal debate with someone of different opinion but realise more and more how impossible a dream that is with your standards in this regard. With nothing offered by you which warrants more than ridicule we are forced to seek amusement by taunting you in creative ways.
Some of the wit and remarks people like you inspire is priceless.
The frustrating part is that like telling a great adult joke to a child, you mostly don’t get it.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 7, 2005 at 12:40 AM Thinky Rabbit thinks you are funny, good game.
Rabbit sorry he use so much of thread but promise try to make it fun for all folks.
PEOPLE of EARTH
Today we have that classic act of human culture. Dittoheads.
The term is fairly recent and Rabbit did not coin it. He like all informed people realised exactly what it was as soon as he heard it. So Rabbit shall not insult his readers by offering a definition, but rather by applying that definition to predicting the outcome of an experiment, and thus giving you the tools to interpret those results, and apply them in your own study groups.
What makes todays lesson all the more exciting is that we have an “Matching Pair of Dittoheads”.
Rubbish you say, there is only one gender of dittohead, that is why they are dying out so quickly. Not so rabbit tells you. There are indeed two types, you just have to look more closely at them. The difference is remarkably small, and would hardly be enough to distinguish gender in most species. Here the Dittohead head is different to other species as in most things.
One of the greatest differences to other species is its unique ability to follow its training, even to the extent of allowing itself to be killed or having it’s offspring killed in horrible ways. Provided its masters voice has said its a good idea, the Dittohead complies and no amount of logic, persuasion or threat to its person (by its master) will get it to change its course unless it is so ordered.
Remarkably DH’s recognise this in themselves and actually have a word for it. FAITH. They value and cherish the word, as they do several other words which we shall come to.
As Rabbit said there are too genders. the Alpha of the pair you will have guessed is Thinky. Obviously a DH, has spoken the mantra with accustomed conviction. Proceed to deliver the Garbled version of Ditto of the common DH. Not the more ordered structured Ditto we are more used to seeing around these parts, that is because the elite DH’s normally inhabit this sphere. They can and do often build three and four block towers of logic.
No these are the most common breed of DH’s which is why they are unable to build even two block towers without knocking both down with the next block.
More later, Rabbit finished his coffee.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 7, 2005 at 1:08 AM scorp is of course a Dittohead, but what distinguishes him is his more pointed and personal approach. A greater readiness to embrace violence generally, not for him any of this “liberal” compassion, which he leaves to his more complex, nuanced partner to deal with.
scorp’s postings will be much more blunt and belligerent. They will generally concentrate on words of other postings which he imagines impugn him in some way. Any imagined or intended insult will do so long as it avoids dealing with facts, logic or nuance. While calling the grown ups bums and idiots in his squeaky voice he will be inflating his own sense of purpose and rightness. Once he starts to realise he is scoring nothing and he may ironically get more of the joke being perpetrated on him, he will become shorter and shorter and more and more rude, suddenly with a final vile curse, Ping! Gone like the winter.
Of course having found a mate, the scorpy may well stick around and try to make a nest for itself, they have a strong urge to breed, and having once seen the chance will stop at nothing to further it’s species.
This is why they spend so much time doing, what they spend so much time doing, when alone.
There are fewer DH’s all the time, and even though you would hardly notice it, (there do still seem to be an awful lot of them around still), their numbers are dwindling. This is of particular concern to DH’s because DH’s are almost defined by their inability to even find their own mothers or their posteriors as the case may be.
When two of the species come together it can be an awesome experience if you are prepared.
Thinky will provide most of the object lessons in DH thinking. Rabbit accepts “thinking” is not a word that springs to mind when describing DH behaviour, but we have to call it something folks. Thinky has begun by taking the bait. Of course many things will work, criticism of USA, US Troops, US Wars and Mc Donalds. But nothing, friends is more attractive to DH’s than criticism of George Dubya Bush. Their emperor and his clothes. Say anything which criticises Bush or the USA as defined by Bush and you are sure to get a bite in short order. Endangered species or not friends, you will always catch at least one with this most delectable of bait.
Notice how even upon the eve of the greatest screw-up in modern history for any national handling of a disaster, we have caught a “PAIR”, by suggesting the emperor was in any way to blame for the running of his country. Don’t worry Dittohead watchers, there should be plenty more around for a while yet. Plenty for everyone. These pair are Rabbit’s and glad he is to show them to you.
More…..
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 7, 2005 at 1:58 AM We’ll get back to your “points” if there are any, Thinky, when Rabbit has finished building your new house, kittens, just play with yourselves, while Rabbit talks to the people.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 7, 2005 at 2:02 AM Look I do not think you get it. The Presidents job has nothing to do with getting people out of harms way. The presidents job is getting help to the states. It doesn’t matter if Bush is President or you were our president. If the people of this country want to change that, they can.
I only dicided to voice an opinion here, because it sickens me that you, and others like you, would use a natural disaster to further your hate Bush retoric.
You can try and use your wit to dance around the subject matter, but in the end people see this tactic for what it is, as do I.
Rabbit if this was a debate you would be losing. Hummor and miss direction, uh? When will you resort back to threats and name calling?
Think on It
Posted by think4yourself on Sep 7, 2005 at 2:17 AM The president would not know what to do with a job if he was given one. Dittohead thinky, Rabbit does not want to confuse you, or bore anyone so we shall for the most part just let your pearls of wisdom stand unchallenged. They are seriously challenged in their own right where you haven’t actually demolished them yourself in a sentence just prior or immediately following.
Rabbit shall instead, in keeping with the day’s lesson demonstrate the correct way to deal with a Dittohead. It is not as many seem to think by dealing with all their gibberish as it comes out. You cannot stop the river, friends, it just keeps on flowing. Since it never had to make sense to anyone to start with nothing a DH says can truly be challenged, at least to the DH.
The best way, to nail a DH is to establish one FACT. That is it in a nutshell. Rabbit kids you not. One Fact and you have nothing left of a DH but a blubbering mass of vile smelling jelly like substance.
Not just any fact, what is needed is a Fact which directly challenges the DH’s main contention. More problems friends and you them didn’t you?
How do you establish the DH’s main contention, they use words like point, fact, opinion like confetti. Like FAITH, FACT, OPINION and POINT are among the DH sacred words. What they actually mean by these things has not as yet been defined allthough there is much research and many theories given.
Of course whatever it is it has no relation to definitions common to you and I were we to use such words. It can be hard to get a handle on a DH’s words, what is he trying to say. Half the trouble is that a thing he says is a fact one minute can as easily be called an opinion by him in the next. He may also for reasons known only to himself, suddenly abandon the previous stance as if he’d never dreamed of thinking such a thing. How can you debate a person who seems to have less respect for his own argument than you have?
Once you have defined the DH’s main contention, or a crucial point of his contention otherwise, but not as convincing to the DH. Once you have defined it, you simply select an irrefutable Fact and then comes the hard part. How do you get such a flexible and irrational creature to “go in the box” so to speak. That is the hard part people and there is no set script. Rabbit finds it useful to keep alternatively poking them to keep them awake and alert, and feeding them a little by dealing with some of their “points”. Which of the flurry of points do we use? Doesn’t matter. Try and pick those which the DH repeats most, in one form or another and contradicts least. A succession of such exchanges and you will begin to narrow it down till you know what critical synapse is the basis of their contention. there will seldom be more than one maybe two “items” here.
Finally you should be able to articulate the contention of the DH for them. The DH will seize upon this description as if it were his own and you have it. DH is now committed to an articulate contention.
The same sort of slipping and sliding is involved in trying to get them to face the FACT you have selected as the “coup de gras”. This must be done subtly and can take a long time. Remain patient. At this time it is best to be as nice to the DH as you can be. This lulls them into a false sense of security. Since they have become very emotional by now and are writhing in egoistic agony, they assume you, (You lefties you) are equally upset.
In fact take the DH’s words as he accuses you of paranoia, anger, frustration, fear etc as being directly indicative of the DH’s state of mind at the time. This is a remarkably accurate personal barometer. It would not be observable among more complex minds another unique DH quality.
Try not to alert the DH of the crucial nature of the FACT, to his argument. He will finally, believing he is winning you into his nest, eat the fact, having not noticed or forgotten what he was trying to say, and Ping! DITTOHEAD in the box.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 7, 2005 at 3:06 AM Look I do not think you get it. (says the Thinky). The Presidents job has nothing to do with getting people out of harms way. (Well actually Rabbit thinks this has been contradicted by you already Thinky, but the president does sort of imply he is in charge of protecting the people of America. Admittedly he is convinced his job is to put people in harms way, that seems self evident. Witness he has put more people in harms way, and killed more people than most “despots” get away with before they brought to justice.)
The presidents job is getting help to the states. (See the way they contradict themselves people, weird isn’t it)
Thinky if the President’s job is getting help to the states, then why a week later is there not much help getting to the victims. Does Bush’s responsibility stop at getting it over the border? Do they just dump it beside the road? They are mostly stockpiling it inside of militarised no-go zones and stopping even relief from others getting to the victims. Never let a fact get in the way of a good slogan eh Thinky.
Thinky says: It doesn’t matter if Bush is President or you were our president. If the people of this country want to change that, they can.
Rabbit says. Forgive him lord, he knows not what he’s saying. Thinky, it would make an enormous difference if Rabbit was the POTUS instead of Bush. This is no doubt the logical reason that Bush is in office because people like you think don’t know the difference between a Rabbit and George W. Bush. Rabbit knows a lot of Rabbits who would like your address after that remark sunshine.
Rather than being so ambitious perhaps we shall just settle for Fidel Castro, who while not an ideal choice, would certainly be able to do all of the things that Bush has tried and failed. Castro has proven he can give security, peace and protection to his people, as already shown in above posts and he has done so with a fraction of the resources and even less of the pompous speechmaking. Frankly thinky the only creature worse for the job of US president than Bush, is in fact the de-facto president, Dick Cheney!
Thinky says: I only dicided to voice an opinion here, because it sickens me that you, and others like you, would use a natural disaster to further your hate Bush retoric.Rabbit knows that thinky is sick, we are feeling a bit sick to our stomachs too thinky and you are not helping us. We are not the cause of your pain though Thinky, that is the putrescence of your long inactive mind that makes you feel like you do.
Rabbit thinks it is much worse to ignore the toatl history of failure of your POTUS, while defending the most outlandishly shameful act of government neglect and mismanagement the world has ever seen. If you think most of your countrymen are giving the Shrub a hard time, you should be lucky you don’t get any news from the rest of the world, DITTOHEAD.
You can try and use your wit to dance around the subject matter, but in the end people see this tactic for what it is, as do I.Thinky says: Rabbit if this was a debate you would be losing. Hummor and miss direction, uh? When will you resort back to threats and name calling?
Rabbit can’t take it, he is devastated, the genius just destroyed Rabbit’s argument in one go!
Don’t worry Thinky, Rabbit has done not name calling but more witty repertoire. No threats at all, unless you refer to the paint job promised for the imaginary walls of cyberspace. Don’t worry if you didn’t get it, yet, Thinky, it’s a crap colour and we’ll repaint as soon as we clean up the mess off the floor.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 7, 2005 at 3:36 AM People, you will have seen by now what is the Dittohead’s contention. He has not yet articulated it, nor can he without help.
Of course Rabbit could merely hand it to him now, but he will smell a trap and start backtracking again, back into safer territory. There in the land of doubt, where he is most comfortable. So we shall not scare him yet.
Please don’t be dissapointed that this was the same contention common to a broad cross spectrum of DH’s. All data helps us understand the things better.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 7, 2005 at 3:41 AM YOH Bush Apologists!
Mayor Nagin et al
I have already proven to myself by the examination of the facts available that he has been remiss.I can perceive that. Given the facts.
We give you FACTS regarding Senior Bush’s Incompetence’s and you slither, slime and scurry about, like a cockroach on the kitchen table inorder to avoid the LIGHT.
I wish I had more time to invest in this but the Rabbit is, “Makein Bacon” out of you oinkers.
The lagomorph is murderin you slope heads, and this is after I told him not to kill anybody!You’ve already given yourself a black eye and managed to shoot your bloody foot off! And still you come back for more.
You do every thing you can to AVOID facing the rather startling implications of the FACTS
The unavoidable implication that your “Most Favoritous” free market, privatization, glory be to greed, “President’s” direct incompetent, and murderous policies have everything to do with the Catastrophic results of the Katrina Event.
Then you want us to be nice to you! Not nice to call us names.
Bros you are a WONDER!.You want us to believe the opposite of what the facts directly SHOW.
“it’s all the fault of the <<<socialist welfare state!>>>”
Well DAM this [Stinkin Dirty “Commie Nation”!]
——————————— ;——-
“Think4yourself” Says:
“Thank God you are here to teach us all.”
I concur: Thank you Rabbit!
—————————
Quote “think4yourself”
“Look I do not think you get it. The Presidents job has nothing to do with getting people out of harms way.”WHAT! What! is that you say!
Sh#t , there goes the other foot!It is the federal governments duty and perogative to listen to all the warnings and pleadings from, and protect it’s citizens.
THAT IS THEIR JOB! That is why they are there!FEMA, US ARMY ENGINEERS, INDEPENDENT SCIENTISTS, LOCAL & STATE GOV. Private Citizens!
All warned all pleaded!It is one of the Federal Governments main functions, “TO AVOID AND AVERT NATIONAL TRAGEDY!
‘Are you insane! Or are you Stupid! -
It is impossible to be nice to such Psychotic CRAP.They pleaded: “WE NEED HELP!” “WE NEED HELP DESPERATEY!”
“OR A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE GOING TO DIE!! ” “DIE MISERABLY”
“ IT IS ONLY A MATTER OF TIME!!
Everybody KNOWS it’s going to come down! Even Bush despite his denials Knew that!“HELP US!” “WE NEED YOUR LIFE LINE NOW!”
WE CANNOT DO IT ON OUR OWN.
YOU ARE OUR FEDERAL GOV. THAT IS WHY WE PAY TAXES!
“THERE IS NOBODY ELSE THAT WE CAN APPEAL TO!”Unless of coarse you account “Faith Based Initiatives” as an option.
In FACT those that appealed, even gave a quoted as to the price tag of how much that help might cost.
16 Billion Bucks! - The Appeals fell on DEAF-YEA - DUMB and STUPID ears.
We are still counting the DEAD!How many 100’s of Billions have been spent on KILLING well over 100 thousand Iraqi’s of which how many are terrorists?????????
HOW do you jerks sleep at night!
Quote “think4youself”
“The Presidents job has nothing to do with getting people out of harms way.”No but it sure seems to be his job, in putting people “INTO HARMS WAY”, don’t it!
BALLAAAM!! KAPOW! There goes the other foot!
And you don’t even feel it, do you!
You don’t even realize the implications of what you have said!
You are one UNWHOLESOME, PATHOLOGICAL piece of work!
I have to go with the RABBIT! It is hard not to get personal, with you low life’s.
Posted by Eadora on Sep 7, 2005 at 4:06 AM Rabbit also feels compelled to point out that BUSH-LOVE, as we shall call it has been proven to be essential to the Dittoheads. Even Democrat Dittoheads have supported POTUS at least as a figurehead, recognising in him their essential qualities despite bein of the Repug camp. Therefore Bush-love is still a recognisable trait, but in a more passive form.
However, when you find a DH with a very poor opinion or even a loathing, next step, of Bush that does not make them “unusual”. This is the most recent phenomenon, “Recovering Dittoheads”
Don’t laugh. Rabbit always knew that Dittoheads were much closer to humans than they seemed. Many have suddenly begun to recover in the last week, and as we have seen before, when first the scabs fall from their eyes, the recovery can take months, weeks sometimes before they are completely indistinguishable from humanity.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 7, 2005 at 4:09 AM Eadora, Rabbit just picking himself up off floor. You are funny too, but we both enjoying this joke, eh?
Careful, nice Eadora, don’t say anything to get us censored, Rabbit made mistake once and he not do so again. BTW Have you seen where Shills are stumped on DU?
Eadora, enjoy hunting with you, any other favorite hunting grounds you’d like to share with a Sweet Bunny?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 7, 2005 at 4:18 AM Pray tell!
What the HELL do you Apologists think the “Federal Government” is there for?Just to collect taxes and hand our policy and grants to, giant multinationals. Better know as “Corporate Welfare” Wefare is OK as long as it is on the RIGHT side of the tracks.
But Levee’s – What profit in Levees? You build Em, and that’s it!
You can’t sell em at a profit can you!Or is it their Job to institute perpetual WAR. So as to keep the shareholders of, “Mega Biggo, War Mongering Defense Contractors, Happy??.
Let’s o keep the quarterly bottom line LOOKIN GOOD!
OR IS IT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT’s JOB TO SERVE THE PEOPLE!
Posted by Eadora on Sep 7, 2005 at 4:29 AM The quarterly bottom line, any bottom line is not even in sight. USA is Bankrupted, reduced to piracy and despotism in a last minute desperate bid to rescue it’s diseased carcass.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 7, 2005 at 7:12 AM Time to just re-visit this little scorpism. Among the evidence he raised for his theory that anybody here fashions aluminium foil hats for protection from invisible mind control.(Its simpler than that scorpy, you just have to stop watching it.)
Scorpy intends this to be proof no doubt of our ultimate delusion “They actually say they believe that President Bush lied.”
Now what can Rabbit say. Rabbit keeps trying to beat this guy to the punch making a ninny out of himself, but he’s just too quick for Rabbit.
We shall say no more on this, for we must not alert them to the game plan. Or should Rabbit maybe jerk the line a bit early, see if he can snag them on it now?
No, Rabbit shall wait till Thinky says something similar, so we can just slip it past their guard, make it easy for them to swallow the bait in one go. No point in making them wary. They have short memories so won’t stray far from the script, but they’ll get all jittery and start with gibberish and we’ll be back at the start again.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 7, 2005 at 7:28 AM As a matter of fact scorpy that supports Rabbit’s contention that the Dittoheads we see on the internet, even the common ones like these, are possibly more evolved than those who not on the internet. It would seem easy to compare, but we are dealing with microscopic measurements here. There is too great a degree of error to say for sure yet.
Scorpy as DHs go is quite advanced. It is actually quite early in the game where he did indeed “get” something that was being said to him.
Again. “They actually say they believe that President Bush lied.”
He got it in one. He hasn’t tackled that as an issue yet because as a DH he thought that because he said it, it became true.
Of course like any slogan, they have not given it an ounce of thought. If it has a jingle, or rhymes or comes with a plastic toy, they will imediately assume God meant for them to have one.
So Scorp, and Thinky too, Rabbit will have to confess to being guilty of this heinous, “thought crime”. He does indeed think that BUSH lied. Which Bush? Both.
But about what has he lied?
Shall Rabbit not be more specific, and save you the agony of trying to create something, munchkins?
Rabbit is of the Opinion, that George Dubya Bush lied, about everything. Everything of any consequence to anybody outside his immediate circle of,... whatever they call themselves.
Rabbit has enough facts to feel confident that you cannot establish a single thing Shrub ever said that was not a lie. If either of you micro-minds can actually establish as a fact that there was something that Dubya said which was not a lie, then Rabbit will agree he told that much truth at least.
Now let’s be fair and start the bidding at a realistic level, no “I’m goin’ ter have a shit”
or “I’ve got a sore stomach”. Has to be at least on a level with statements normally counted as consequential when uttered by a President of the USA.Takers?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 7, 2005 at 7:51 AM Thinky, since you clowns are nearly done here, Rabbit shall just get some of your crap cleaned up.
Thinky says: When I say think 4 yourself I mean do not let one source decide what is happening for you. Check all sources (that is how I found ITT). The people shot were not defense contractors they were shooting at the defense contractors, the police then shot all but one of them. Just because ONE source says what you want to be true does not make it so.
Thinky you have never been more wrong than on this one you total loser.
You have done nothing but resist every FACT and every opinion different to your own, where do you get off pretending you are looking for enlightenment. This is probably the first non mainstream site you’ve ever been this close to even, and you see nothing. Rabbit like others who watching you have proven we are vastly better informed than you and so far the only views you have expressed are a garbled view of TV Ditto.
Stop making things up off the top of your head , based on unconfirmed ditto on the TV
The five shot were defense contractors, and were not armed, you clown.
One source, what are you talking about.
Here is Australian, biggest National Newspaper in Australia. One of the several places Rabbit has read the details.
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5 5744,16494579^12377,00.html
Rabbit used that source because it was one of the several he had which you could not dismiss, FOOL.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 7, 2005 at 8:45 AM Barbara Bush said: “And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway, so this—this (she chuckles slightly) is working very well for them.”
Easy to see where George got his compassion and sensitivity from.With a mother like that who needs toilet paper.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 7, 2005 at 1:32 PM The Information Highway makes it possible to gather more information then ever before. Unfortunately people have not been upgraded to process it any better or faster. We are now able to come to a conclusion immediately without wasting time thinking.
Just because a favorite blog, website, newspaper or other source presents information — it is not necessarily true. Often they seem more interested in being first than being accurate.
“I do not believe in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance.” Thomas Carlyle
Posted by whattheheck on Sep 7, 2005 at 1:39 PM whattheheck go back to the start of the thread. If you jump in as blind as this genius, you don’t even deserve an answer.
The Australian is mainstream and could hardly be considered Rabbit’s favorite source. As it happens now that Rabbit has gone to more effort to check this, since you have questioned this Rabbit must be sure. Interestingly all stories about the five contractors go back to Fox and The Australian. Even the sites of Alternative media haven’t been running with it. What Rabbit discovered was that the Australian is owned or affiliated with Fox. Not such a surprise, but if that was a mistake then it’s a bit too obvious. Shit, fox wouldn’t run that story if it was true thought Rabbit, so if they say it surely is real. Rabbit is aggree to this fact, at this point.
You do not what this means Dittoheads. If Rabbit had trusted his usual best sources, like Rense and Prison Planet, Information Clearing House and What Really Happened instead of assuming mainstream media would tell any truth, no problem.
Don’t make assumptions either WTH, what would you know about “favorite blog, website, newspaper or other source presents information — it is not necessarily true. Often they seem more interested in being first than being accurate.”
This is only a good description of the MSM as seen with the above example. Exactly why Rabbit would not ever read “The Australian” or any Newspaper. Glad for you to have proven something though WTH, congratulations.
Dubya’s staged photo ops.Christine Adelhardt (Reporter)
“Two minutes ago the President drove by with his convoy. What happened here in Biloxi during the day is really unbelievable. All of a sudden the rescue troops finally showed up, the clean-up vehicles; we didn’t see those over the last days here. In an area where it really isn’t urgent, there is nobody around, all the remaining people went to the city center.
The President is traveling with a press convoy, so they get wonderful pictures saying the president was here and the help will follow. The amount of this catastrophe shocked me, but the amount of set-up that happened here today is at least equally shocking for me.”
Rabbit still expects shootings of friendlies as well as reporters before they finished the big cull.
This is sad video footage.
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10121.htm
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 7, 2005 at 2:34 PM “Associated Press reports that at least five people shot dead by police as they walked across a New Orleans bridge yesterday were contractors working for the US Defence department. A spokesman for the Army Corps of Engineers said the victims were contractors on their way to repair a canal. The contractors were on their way across the bridge to launch barges into Lake Pontchartrain, in an operation to fix the 17th Street Canal, according to the spokesman. The shootings took place on the Danziger Bridge, across a canal connecting Lake Pontchartrain to the Mississippi River. Early on Sunday, Deputy Police Chief W.J. Riley of New Orleans said police shot at eight people, killing five or six.”
-Australian Herald-Sun, “Five dead were army workers: report,” September 2, 2005
http://heraldsun.news.com.au/common/story_page
/0,5478,16494518^1702,00.html“Police shot and killed at least five people Sunday after gunmen opened fire on contractors crossing a bridge to make levee repairs, The Associated Press reported. Deputy Police Chief W.J. Riley told AP that police shot at eight people who had guns, killing five or six. Initial AP reports had wrongly indicated that the contractors themselves were shot by police. Nagin said Sunday that his top priority was to start moving traumatized police and firefighters out of the city so that they can get medical and psychological treatment. Police Superintendent Eddie Compass said that two of his officers committed suicide, including one who had discovered his wife had died.”
———> Not exactly the usual misprint. Looks like a credibility trap. Thanks for help WTH.
See how easily one can concede a fact and rather than lose credibility, one is strengthened. Shows desire for truth. This fact does not in any way make Bush any less culpable though or make the US history of shooting their own, their allies and reporters before they ever even see an enemy, any less real.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 7, 2005 at 2:48 PM “Nagin said Sunday that his top priority was to start moving traumatized police and firefighters out of the city so that they can get medical and psychological treatment.”
I heard a report early this a.m. that the mayor was sending 200 First Responders to Las Vegas for a trip planned long before the hurricane. When questioned he reportedly said, “New Orleans is a party town — get over it.”
Have not heard it repeated anywhere else. Anyone else out there hear about this one? Seems too dumb to admit even if true.
Posted by whattheheck on Sep 7, 2005 at 3:49 PM Rabbit,
Look I understand it was in the mainstream press. That does not make it true. I did like how you thought if you told me it was on FOX I would accept it. And I like of if FOX says something you WANT to believe then it must be true. Granted you have some knowledge, but you believed this story the second you heard it.
Anyway, here are some links to correct you:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/World/New-Orleans-police-shoot-dead-five/2005/09/0 05/1125772437194.html
http://newsbreak.com.au/search.ac?relkey=a322471
Again, the President cannot take over any domestic area of the country. PERIOD!
If you don’t like it, then don’t live hear.Think
The big lie, “British intelligence says Iraq tried to by uranium”1)British intelligence did say that.
2)Niger exports are mostly uranium.
3)Saddam bought it from them before.
4)Even France thought this to be true.
5)Saddam sent a delegation to Niger, but it had “nothing” to do with uranium.It is only a lie if you new it to be untrue at the time you said it.
Posted by think4yourself on Sep 7, 2005 at 6:26 PM Here is another if you want more than 0ne.
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050904/ap_on_re_us/katrina_ _shootings_hk1
Posted by think4yourself on Sep 7, 2005 at 9:54 PM Thinky, The Rabbit has already dealt with the issue. For your info the report came out via MSM and stood for quiet some time before it was altered. Rabbit didn’t realise the connection between Faux And that Newspaper. But as it was merely an illustrative point about Rabbit’s contention, it was neither crucial nor necessary even to Rabbit’s contention.
All Rabbit did was show how truly open minded people deal with information when challenged. Double check before shooting oneself in the foot. Good lesson for DHs. The fact that the story was reported in MSM is still a fact. Rabbit has only claimed this much when the only challenge you offered was automatically questioning everything you don’t agree with by challemging the source.
Neither WTH nor you were able to successfully challenge the info, just questioned like you do everything which doesn’t fit your fixed beliefs. Rabbit apllied himself and found all the reports, but had he been you he would still be arguing that point by saying all the other, alternative news sites were just lying.
Sorry to accuse you of being a faux believer, even DH’s have some respect for their minds then. Nevertheless, MSM is as a rule untrustworthy.
Rabbit did not believe the story the second he heard it. He read it, folowed the links to an MSM source which would normally be the last to print if it were true. No rebuttals existed at the time. This in itself does no damage to Rabbit’s contention at the time. In fact it raises the question as to why FOX would say something bad about the JUNTA’s actions if not true. Looks like deliberate disinfo to Rabbit. Notice that Rabbit’s trusted sources did not bite. Rabbit probably the sort of soul such disinfo meant to catch out. Luckily thsoe who seek truth are neither pig headed nor stupid enough to defend a position lightly. See how easily they get you to believe anything. Don’t get too excited about having established one error, especially when it was understandable and you didn’t really do much to achieve it. You have after all questioned everything which has been raised by anyone so far. After all, just by the law of averages you had to be right about something sooner or later.
Now since the fact is not even critical Rabbit is happy to leave it for now. By all means keep flogging yourself over your ‘Victory’, but while you are at it, you might see if you can manage another. Rabbit has given very few opinions except about you and Dittoheads in general. Stop making things up, to put in Rabbit’s mouth. Seems incredibly stupid. Rabbit is not in your head, he is here and you can ask him his opinion. So don’t pretend Rabbit is somehow desiring that US forces killed anybody let alone their own. Lastly, as the above quote shows the story was bigger than just Fox, so actually chances are there may yet be more to this than meets the eye. An open mind and cynical would be well advised not to Write this off completely yet. May well be more later. Anybody who has eyes open will have noticed that certain hard truths often are reported in the days after an event only to disapear for a while. Later when the dust settles many of thses things turn up again and are shown to have been covered up. So while Rabbit does not consider the report to be fact at this point, nor does he consider it to be completely discredited. Hope in fact it isn’t true.
cont….......
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 8, 2005 at 1:03 AM Thinky, Rabbit has not had chance to offer many opinions. Even though you keep trying to imagine you know them. Rabbit is more interested in yours being based on facts rather than just standard program. Rabbit never indicated he would like for such news to have been tru. You think Rabbit has a poor opinion of USA, for fun? You think Rabbit likes to see a country he thought was almost like us only five years ago. Sure a bit more stupid, sure a lot of funny hubris, but not heartless, cowardly and inhumane.
Thinky get over it. You have challenged everything anybody says which doesn’t agree with your opinions. You had to get something right sooner or later. Just take note that Rabbit did not defend the point past all reason. He checked and can see what has happened. Fox was not the original source as you can see from the quote above. This is very strange, because FAUX would be the last to print such news if it was true. So why say it they were not sure? Deliberate disinfo?
Also note that often unpleasant truth slips between the cracks early on before being retracted. Only to pop up again later and be proven. Does it change Rabbit’s main contention? No
If you want a fact which replaces this in indicatiing the trigger happy nature of US forces, then we shall rely instead on the following.
“Gulf War in 1991, when 35 U.S. troops, or 24 percent, were killed by fratricide.”
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0505-07.htm
Sad story:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A35717-2004Dec4.html
There are links to the current crop which are about the same as usual percentage. (ASk if you want them) The Iraq war has had the distinction of having the highest number of Journalists killed. About 36 so far in two years while Vietnam was about 33 in 20 years.
So while they are still about on par for killing about 1/5 of their own forces, they are getting better at killing journalists. Which is odd because these days journalists are much more controlled by the military.
Don’t start the line about how war is dangerous, get used to it. While all nations who have fought modern wars have had friendly fire incidents, most of them have been suffered at the hands of their"allies” the USA.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 8, 2005 at 1:14 AM Rabbit,
When we first met I lumped you into a “group”. You pointed it out. I said you were right. You still are trying to put me in a “group”. That is fine with me because we are also conversing, I think. My point with the media is; do not trust them. When I hear something, I track it to its source. When someone is quoted from a speech, I read the speech.
I will read anything you point me to. Just be ready, because I will give you MY point of veiw in return.
ThinkI will be posting a rebutal to the latest article, see you there.
Posted by think4yourself on Sep 8, 2005 at 1:37 AM common dreams-
I agree, but it has been both parties that want to misinform, and they each use the media to do this.How do we stop it? Stop the growth of the Fed.
How do we do that? Stop relying on them.And I know they are restircting information in NO, pictures of the dead, and the FEMA director should pay a polictical price for that.
I just hope you do not agree with others on these threads that call for a death sentence.
Posted by think4yourself on Sep 8, 2005 at 1:54 AM Whatheheck, Rabbit rcognises the glimmer of light may have seeped under your door. Feels he does you are re-aligning your soul so in a spirit of shared ideals, and hope, Rabbit will be nicer and asks sincerely that you know all he has said on this thread, so you know exactly where Rabbit stands. You may be surprised to see how simple is the Rabbit’s message. If you open minded are, Rabbit’s words need not be personally insulting. Since Rabbit only wants to achieve his ideals, every one the same, has no barrow to push. Rabbit has a small brain, but lots of instinct. Rabbit knows the simple truths, “THE ANSWER” evryone seeks, to all the big WHY questions, is in everyones power to understand and put into effect. After you get on the right start place, the first basic questions and answer them one at a time, all else must fall into place.
Read Rabbit and see if you don’t start to get it. Actually these issues we discuss are for Rabbit minor details. What? This disaster, or Iraq as minor details? Yes.
If our worldly problems had lots of individual solutions, then it would seem reasonable to expect the number and scale of them to remain fairly static, maybe even they would decrease with time as we learnt more.
Guess what? You’ve noticed haven’t you that our problems seem to not only be increasing in numbers and severity, they are doing so at an exponential rate. Seems they are linked directly to the advances of our civilisation.
These Rabbit shall present as opinions, but am sure most will agree they are facts.
What is the logical progression then? Our problems are going to continue expanding that’s obvious. A good slogan is called for right? “Sooner or later we’ll find the answer.” That’s a good one, it works for most. What about “GOD will come down and make it allright” or “GOD will come and rescue us just before the end so it doesn’t matter” These are two variations on the same theme. Lots of people are right into those last two slogans.
Rabbit doesn’t have to tell anybody at this point surely that slogans are good only to stop thought.
more….
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 8, 2005 at 1:59 AM Rabbit proposes that since people don’t even know what GOD looks like, nobody can agree on much about him other than he’s very big and lives a lot bloody longer than us. Fairy tales are good for children, to learn from.
GOD fairy tales don’t even teach a useful lesson. Somebody else will worry about thinking for you and looking after you, just have faith, no matter how little evdience there is for something. The less evidence there is, the more faith you need and if you have it you are accounted as special? Special allright thinks Rabbit.Instead of seriously thinking about the world and considering the mounting threats to your childrens very futures, some want to teach their kids to not think of anything except GOD taking care of it all. Others do the same but substitute GOVERNMENT for GOD.
If there is to be an ANSWER, and there isn’t time or energy on this planet left to find answers for even half of the absolutely critical problems facing us, NOW…NOW…NOW.
This is what Rabbit has spent his lives doing, trying to find what he knew must be out there somewhere, an answer. One answer which was THE ANSWER. If there is any sort of GOD, which Rabbit always figured there was then there will be a formula. The hints are all around us. The simplicity of all things once they are distilled down to their basics. At the same time the elegance of the countless interactions between all living things which appear to be so intimately connected to each other, that nothing can sicken or die without the whole being diminished somehow.
Ther is an answer, it is simple, and everyone can have one.
Rabbit will deabate issues but always remember Rabbit is not seeking to win any argument. Nor is Rabbit even trying to learn from debating.
Rabbit already knows the most important things and is merely working backwards from the ANSWER, through some of the misunderstandings among groups of people who are effectively blocking each others’ IDEALS while casting away their own.
Rabbit will if he can narrow down the basic contention of people and show them how it relates to the ANSWER, and hopefully thus enable them to compare what they are saying with what they need to be saying. If lucky then this will change no opinions, it will embolden you to know you sensed correctly somewhere along the way. If it does change your opinions, you will be luckier still.
“For yours will be the world and everything that’s in it”
—- KiplingAnd what is more we’ll live in peace my friend
—-Rabbit
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 8, 2005 at 2:00 AM Whattheheck. Rabbits when angry can indeed seem rabid, but serves purpose. Perhaps what helps is that the Rabbit knows as well as the victim that it can’t seriously hurt anything. —-It’s a flaming Rabbit for chrissakes.
Attacked by one once and after ten minutes was bloody and shellshocked, but nearly speechless with laughing. — true story
Rabbit is humbly now, since he sees WTH can say what he means and wants to mean what he says, offerring the suggestion that you verify the Downing Street Memos. If further doubts about the veracity of that info Rabbit will gladly find for you and you can see clearly the following.
The big lie, “British intelligence says Iraq tried to by uranium”
1)British intelligence did say that.
**(Yes they did, but because they were supplied that info by US intelligence first. You see it was discredited before being released, but was quoted by British who were in turn quoted by the Junta to use to try and dispel any doubts about the original reports which were already rife.** Truly **
2)Niger exports are mostly uranium.
**Perhaps, but have you seen the reports about their facilities, the security and control by (British) thinks Rabbit.
3)Saddam bought it from them before.
**Sadddam may or may not have, the FACT is he didn’t have to, IRAQ has VERY large reserves of Uranium and certainly had the technology to mine it. Just a guess but they probably were. The point remains so what? Israel is supported by US and isn’t even in treaty. Others break. US breaks all treaties too, is it still a reason to attack you everytime someone else thinks you might be breaking rules so as to hurt us? Jeez you yankees would have a hell of a lot of small wars going on in which others had actually declared those wars first for a change if this was a good argument. **
4)Even France thought this to be true.
** Like who, let alone the USA gives a F*uck what the french think?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 8, 2005 at 2:47 AM 5)Saddam sent a delegation to Niger, but it had “nothing” to do with uranium.
It is only a lie if you new it to be untrue at the time you said it.
** Indeed and Rabbit cares not about such lies. However, Real proven lies, with foreknowledge, are something else entirely. Especially if they are made by a presidential Junta which has always had questionable legality, (2001 election is being dealt with, Fitzgerald soon, think Rabbit) and by means of which lies, at least 100, 000 innocent people have died, at least 2000 US and British servicemen have died. (Don’t believe the figures of 2000 even a quarter the real dead, ask me why) A sovereign nation has been ilegally invaded, and this is no speculation, it is just being ignored by Americans for now.
Banned weapons of war are being used in amounts which may indeed have worldwide effects over the coming years. Nobody knows for sure. But have you noticed how slow Mainstream science is to identify the cause of the high temperature as being their ass on fire? Our civilization does not have a tendency to err on the side of caution when caught up in blood lust.
Now that is also a Fact.
Considering Clinton got the sack after the greatest budget surplus in history, + $523 Billion, and lying about hide the salami with a willing sheila. What should the penalty be for a president that lied with the above results, as well as consistently and at a record rate brought that previous +$523 billions, down to about the same amount in the red. What should it be, just sack the guy maybe and take away his keys to the whitehouse.
Cut down his lifes pension? (or whatever you pay your presidents to stay away once they go like we do)
WTH if BUSH lied about the reasons to go to WAR, under the above circumstances, what would be an aprropriate penalty to you?
Before you waste both our time by saying he didn’t lie, tell Rabbit what you would say then. If you do not believe Rabbit that he lied, knowingly say so, Rabbit will prove it to you. It is easy, Rabbit knows this is a fact, not merely the report but the fact of the report.
It is Rabbit’s contention as he said before that GW Bush lied about everything that ever mattered. But we can start with this one lie. Rabbit knows that as soon as you see the scale and deliberation of one of the big ones, suddenly the emperors nakedness is astounding.
As quickly as you are taking in the shocking nakedness, you will be struggling to come to terms with how incredibly ugly and deformed he really is.
You will understand why the most good and gentle, kind and wise people on this planet, many of whom like Rabbit are not at all superstitious. You will come to understand how even we describe him and those around him as evil incarnate. You will finally comprehend the incredible fury of the attacks you have encountered upon your beliefs, that fury is not directed at you friend but to that monster behind you. Stop telling us there is no monster, because it is closer to you than you think and it is not just a naughty little boy that you are defending.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 8, 2005 at 2:49 AM Think, Rabbit notes also your improved attitude, even if he still would like you to answer his last question to you. Still reckon you are using too many slogans but we’ll sort that out.
The posts to WTH above are for you too, since Rabbit see’s you are ready. Rabbit too shall look in on latest article, but must do some workd here, or Rabbit better sack himself.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 8, 2005 at 2:52 AM Truthful George -
When your only tool is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.
When your only thought is to hate Bush, everything Bush says looks like a lie to you. And you can prove it! Even if it requires muddled thinking, self-deception, and suspension of rational faculties.
I’m not sure how much time and effort Liberals on this site have wasted convincing themselves that “Bush lied”, but they haven’t convinced anybody else. Nationwide, Liberal expenditure of resources in this losing cause must be spectacular. And it’s not just that they can’t convince anyone of their falsehoods, they are making themselves look ridiculous in front of the electorate.
We have seen a series of failed Liberal campaigns: “Get Rumsfeld!” “Get Bolton!” “Get Rove!” “Attack Virtue!” All of them failed.
Then the lying Liberals changed tactics: “Support Vice!”, and Cindy Sheehan came, and had her fifteen minutes of fame, and now is gone.
Liberals seized the Katrina storm as if it were their salvation; everything that President Bush said and did was criticized, as if he was first responder for any emergency. But with more information and perspective, people now realize that President Bush WAS the first to respond; Bush called out the Coast Guard before the storm hit, and personally called Governor Blanco and Mayor Nagin and convinced them to declare an emergency. The Guv and the Mare were sitting with their thumbs up their butts looking down the throat of a Cat 5 hurricane, and President Bush had to tell them to do their jobs.
Their jobs were spelled out quite clearly in the Hurricane Annex to the NO Emergency Procedures, and still nothing was done except to tell people to leave. City buses and school buses were available to move thousands of people, according to the procedures, but those buses never moved, and are now sitting in water up to their sparkplugs. Instead of being an asset to prevent death and hardship, now these buses are just one more expensive item of flood damage. Some of the real first responders, the NOPD, responded by joining the looters. In previous hurricanes, massive supplies of sandbags and emergency equipment, water, and food were pre-positioned in New Orleans; not this time. With a big hurricane in the immediate offing, nothing was done until President Bush stepped in, and 80% of the citizens of New Orleans got out in time. But the emergency preparations were not completed, or were not even started, because the responsible officials did not act.
So keep it up, you lying Liberals. How low can you go? We are going to find out.
Posted by scorp on Sep 8, 2005 at 5:53 AM Ignoring most of your garbled rant Scorpy, who is still stuck looking for first base, while others have moved on.
Scorpy you have neither hammer nor nail. If you did have then you no longer have the limbs left with which to wield either. You have as it has been so eloquently observed by the good and wise Eadora blasted not only your feet, all three of them, into oblivion, You lack legs, your arms are in a heap on the floor. All without much help from anyone. There is as Rabbit has observed before an incredible resemblance to Bush-Talk yet somehow original in a way. If you are not Rove, then Rabbit swears you should be.
Scorpy, Rabbit senses you have even fewer companions than you had before. Small rays of light are getting past the eyes wide shut of many and your cause is being abandoned as you hold the tattered flag aloft. Come down from that pile of rubbish son, it is not a castle, it is not even a very good defensive position.
BUSH has lied so often about the big things, he owns no credibility. If Rabbit can prove BUSH has lied about the big things, which isn’t actually necessary because everyone except a dwindling handful of the lowest common denominator, like you Scorpy. Everyone else accepts BUSH LIES.
Feel free to prove Bush told a truth at some time, and Rabbit will not deny you may be able to prove something, but you must read all Rabbit’s words because unlike almost everything you have scribbled they are simple, to the point and eminently TRUE.
Rabbit will ignore you except to poke you with sharp sticks if you continue to demonstrate the hithertoo punkish attitude of answering posts you have not even read to date.
When you have reached this point in the conversation which for youir benefit is recorded here in cyberspace, ask your self the following question. What will my next words say about me. Rabbit means you, chicken, not Rabbit. You are constantly trying to tell Rabbit about himself, when Rabbit wants you to tell us about yourself and why you are like you are.
You know nothing about Rabbit, but Rabbit knows everything needed about you. Why is that?
Now if you think it is a good idea to try and prove George Bush is not a LIAR. It will be your prerogative, and Rabbit shall not hold the door open any longer. The ship is leaving, with or without you.
If you are only here to fight and have no desire to learn, if you have all the answers you need to ensure your world is safe and secure, try and teach us something for sure. If not then shut up sunshine and listen to others, they may sound like they are attacking you, but they are actually attacking your enslavement.
Said already, Rabbit not a leftie, get another string for that guitar laddie, it’s getting boring you just strumming the one.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 8, 2005 at 6:57 AM Ergh! Who ARE all these nutty posters on this very important thread anyway? Where are my old friends Margaret, Richard and Lefty?
sri oracle - I’ll willingly discuss HAARP with you and certain conspiracy theories, such as “New Orleans is sitting on oil and that’s why they wanted to drive the people away”, etc. Mind you, SO, according to paranormal.about.com, is California - are “they” going to depopulate that!!
I REALLY don’t think that this current moment is the one to propagate something as impractical as Hinduism or guruism or something… Everyone is entitled to their own religious beliefs, Gaia knows I have mine - but really! We want something PRACTICAL to help.
No people SHOULDN’T be advised to “go to high ground and farm”, sri. That is a SUBSISTENCE economy, and unless you want to be as badly off as rural India… why do it? Anyway, BARRING a natural catastrophe as big as a comet strike, or something - the population is still too LARGE to “go back to the land” - it is not thus sustainable.
the situation requires practical help for New Orleans and the other affected areas. NATURALLY this will and has and does involve federal aid and federal help. $100 billion is going to be spent, according to the news media now - and a few days ago, Bushie wouldn’t even pledge them $10 (Bn. Or not!)
I’m not American, I just watch your country in fascinated horror. But I dont’ think that “denying your kids sweets”, for example, sri, is going to solve many problems!
National Guard and FEMA are part of the problem, not money… which needs MUST be “federal” as that is who holds most of the budget over there!
I wouldn’t want Guardsmen ordering ME around. And those minute searches they did of the poor were unconstitutional. I know that much!
Whoever said it before, I hope the news media DO remember what they’ve been saying this past week and more… and GO ON saying it, about Bush and his cabinet! I don’t see why Bush should be seen as “the reconstruction president”, just because this isn’t an election year. Impeach him! (I’ve already researched further and found you can’t recall presidents, only impeach. So - do it!)
If Bush DOES go all Rooseveltian out of necessity and gets gratitude for it… well all I can say is that it might be another way of accomplishing a similar end! It reminds me of some folk tale but I can’t remember what.
Anyway - bang goes the estate tax cut!! NO MORE big tax cuts for the rich! THEY’RE out! $2,000 dollar free debit cards all round! Socialism in the USA! Yes!!
Posted by Liz on Sep 8, 2005 at 9:21 PM Former Assistant Secretary, under Reagan: QUOTE
“the American people are being “brainwashed” and no longer believe what the founding fathers said over and over, that your worst enemy is always your own government and never confuse Patriotism with support for the government. He asserted that the mentality is “like that of the brown shirts that followed Hitler” and that the government is deadly dangerous, “you can’t let the military take over policing”.
http://prisonplanet.com/Pages/Sept05/060905brainwashed.htm
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 9, 2005 at 12:41 AM Liz you sound only halfway clued up.
Please establish more about HAARP and Chemtrails etc. Something Rabbit had at the end of a list of interesting, but not very credible theories. Stop assuming that by putting CONSPIRACY in fornt of THEORIES as if that diminishes the value of the theories somehow. It is a dead giveawy to open minded people who define theories in a mundane old fashioned sort of way.
EXAMPLE:
The official story that 19 Men of Arab descent hijacked four airplanes and flew them into the the World Trade Ccenters and the Pentagon etc, is a Conspiracy Theory. There are others. The question is actually which conspiracy theory is best supported by the evidence.
Well, as Rabbit said earlier, he has recently seen that one come out of cupboard and is now extablished Fact. If you wish to question Rabbit he will find a few good sources you can start, but some already offered in this thread. Please be more respectful when you enter a room than just throwing out such a line as “Who ARE all these nutty posters on this very important thread anyway?”
Especially when you don’t show much sign of having even looked to see who was here anyway. Such attitudes as you have so far displayed are common to very few species, Rabbit is just sitting here, munching on the grass, trying to box a couple of specimens for his collection. Rabbit is nice and no nut!FIG Branch.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 9, 2005 at 1:31 AM Yeah, spooky shadeRabbit, I know about Haarp and chemtrails…. not really very interested in them IN THIS CONTEXT, OF THIS ARTICLE - they don’t cause hurricanes and tens of thousands of deaths!!
I know most every conspiracy theory going. In the 90s especially I was a paranormal nut.
You can only really go crazy over chemtrails if you are a dedicated Jeff Rense nut or you go for the theories of Lyndon LaRouche or something like that…. most people who ARE like that have far-right sympathies/connections, unfortunately!!
I actually DO believe that the US government had a lot to do with 9/11, as it happens, because I’ve read up on the physical facts/theories… those towers certainly collapsed in a heck of a hurry!
Can someone go back to discussing Hurricane Katrina and not…. whatever???
Posted by Liz on Sep 9, 2005 at 2:22 PM PS. The article at the top of the board is called “Unnatural Disaster”, NOT because the author thinks it had anything to do with something weird, but because the author is blaming POOR POLITICAL POLICY DECISIONS - no funding for levees, poor evacuation/disaster strategies, lack of planning, etc!!
CAN someone start discussing the political issues properly?
Posted by Liz on Sep 9, 2005 at 2:24 PM Oh yeah, and I must say, when I put my ORIGINAL post on here (3 posts down) I expected to be slugging it out with one or two Libertarians - not necessarily Bush-lovin’ Repugs like scorp. People like the loony Michael Hardesty. Oh well, I suppose he’s gone to ground.
Originally, I just wanted to make the POINT that Hurricane Katrina is A CASE IN POINT, why libertarian, individualist, neo-liberal, arch-capitalist doctrines - such as those of Ayn Rand for example - DO NOT WORK. They are not adequate for the needs of a society. When it comes to everyday economic concerns, Randists and neoliberals can I think happily disregard this fact! BUT WHEN THE SHIT HITS THE FAN…. like with a large natural disaster - then they can’t!
(Though no doubt some will try to score points by saying that it points up “the inefficiency of big government”. YEAH - when the government doesn’t care about the poeple, that is!! CUBA does better, at surviving hurricanes!! Cuba is better organised. And don’t tell me to move there because I don’t live in America anyway. And - there are still 1500 highly trained Cuban doctors, waiting to come into your country, and free oil from Venezuela, that has not yet been accepted for relief efforts. So SURE - evil capitalist right-wing government, IS very ineffective - especially when they want to establish martial law in an area and that takes precedence over ALL relief efforts, public or private.)
Bush should lose his head over this. IMPEACH HIM. IMPEACH HIM!!
Why can’t the American public decide which politicians should be impeached - not a small cadre of religious right/conservative nuts concerned about Clinton’s penis? (Funny though, he doesn’t seem to resent the Republicans for it now! SHOWS you how the top Dems are all in Republican’s pockets.)
Oh - and have you all noticed, that in DISASTER conditions - the American poor suddenly become visible on television at last?
Posted by Liz on Sep 9, 2005 at 2:37 PM WHY does this board now keep cutting out spaces between paragraphs? I’ll leave two…
and see!!
Posted by Liz on Sep 9, 2005 at 2:39 PM Liz -
I guess you can eventually find common ground with anyone if you try hard enough and long enough. Even with a lying Liberal with an empty attic.
I think they cut spaces, as you put it, for reasons of economy. Each time they eliminate a blank space, they eliminate 147 quadrillion and seventeen electrons, at a cost savings of 0.0000000000012 cents; you see of course how this might add up over time.
And the only downside is loss of clarity ad readability, not that the lagomorph and his ilk make any sense anyway.
Posted by scorp on Sep 9, 2005 at 3:30 PM Liz Rabbit is glad and guessed you were as he said half clued up. Enough facts just assimilating and correlating still. Good.
Agree the thread should not digress from Katrina, but submit the following.
The Haarp ref by Sri-oracle was and is a valid dicussion topic in this context. Unless you are just about having a rant for the sake of everybody letting off steam. Rabbit agrees this is not really critical issue at this point if we are trying to seek the most direct resolution of something specific. This is not to be achieved by arguing opinions though either, it will be done by people raising facts and others commenting on those facts as we explore and try to establish ideally the most important facts we can agree on together and then see how this relates to any reasonable contention made.
Stop all the assumptions about things which many more people than you realise use to recognise you as still being a lot more blind than you realise, and since a little knowledge can be dangerous, it can also be insufferable for those with a more. No assumptions.
Rense is nothing you believe. it is a very crdible site and although as you correctly point out there is a sort of right wing slant, rabbit thinks that just goes with the territory since as it happens many more “right wing” people saw things clearer just as some of their number are part of the problem.
As for 911, Rabbit is a Pyrotechnic Rabbit, makes things go bang for fun and living once. Rabbit is actually Fire Rabbit. Knows very well what happened to all three buildings as well as much more besides. as with most things though it is only smoke and mirrors to hide the real dark deeds from people. Best place is to hide it in front of them and tell them it is not there. Or better still show it on TV and tell them it is not there.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 9, 2005 at 3:33 PM Scorpy you are a classic. Substitute any bogey bogy of choice, for Liberal and you have the standard Dittohead toss off line. That is to say you toss off when you have nothing to say.
The only two choices for such DH’s is Liberal or Conservative. Democrap or Repug.Rabbit is addressing the following remark to others, Scorpy, you are not ready to try and make sense of something as complicated as this idea. Best not to overreach.
What if they’re both wrong?
Scorpy Rabbbit is fine thank you and his Ilk says Hi too.
“Scorpy in his inimitable style, unless he is not indeed Rove, in which case he has an imitator, has given freely of his store of knowledge and understanding. He has once again brought to our attention, an important detail to help combat this terrible scourge.
“And the only downside is loss of clarity and readability”
“I think they cut spaces, as you put it, for reasons of economy. Each time they eliminate a blank space, they eliminate 147 quadrillion and seventeen electrons, at a cost savings of 0.0000000000012 cents; you see of course how this might add up over time.” This is eminently worthy of his time and ours and Rabbit for one feels that there is little more that can be said about it, Ladies and Gentlemen.
Before we get down to discuss this latest and possibly most substantial contribution so far.
We should perhaps re-cap some of Scorpy’s main points so far.This is by no means exhaustive and anyone should feel free to add any Particular Scorpisms. (See Rabbit gives the disease he named after you a Capital, respect starts with your self, scorp)
“Dictators talk about democracy because democracy has a good reputation. But dictators do not practice democracy. Example: People’s Democratic Republic of Korea, which does not belong to the people, nor is it a democracy, nor is it a republic.”
———This was quite interesting Scorp, thanyou for clearing that up.
“Before the levees, high water dissipated out in the Delta and silt constantly restored the marshes, which are now disappearing.”——EXACTLY!! Due to the Bush Administration opening them up to development!
Against the warnings of The US Corps of Engineers”! (Thanks Eadora)“When Bush maid the statement that nobody knew the levies would break, he meant after the storm had past, when everyone thought the worst was over.”
———Scorpy explains well why Bush was not to blame, does he not, fellow ‘Liberals?’
more…
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 9, 2005 at 4:23 PM Scorp, I’m not a Liberal, I’m a socialist. I don’t know who on this board has an empty attic… you maybe?
GhostRabbit/Rabbit - did you learn to talk from Yoda, or something?!!!
COME ON, ALL SENSIBLE BLOGGERS AND BOARDERS!!!
I don’t want to discuss the paranormal here! I WANT TO DISCUSS THE DOWNFALL OF BUSH AND BUSHISM!
Posted by Liz on Sep 9, 2005 at 4:34 PM Quote Scorp:
“They actually say they believe that President Bush lied.”
—- Now this statement by Scorpy never did recieve the attention it should. Partly since it was adressed to someone he was trying to mate with at the time. See, who said Dittoheads were simply solitary when it came to things like that? In fact it deserves repeating since as rabbit realised at the time, it serves as the vehicle for his central contention thinks Rabbit.
“They actually say they believe that President Bush lied.”
He has not only shown he was onto us from the start, fellow, “moonbats with tinfoil hat”, he has called us out into the field of battle with such profoundly unassailable logic we are doomed before we evenb put on our boots. He knew what we were trying to pull here, try and prove Bush lied about anything, ever.
Nice one Scorpy.“They persist in this one-track behavior over a period of years. They have successively lost the 2000, 2002, and 2004 elections by ever increasing margins, because most people will not vote for moonbats; the louder the irrational rants, the fewer votes they get.”
——Dam, he’s got us there. Simple really, we’re moonbats, with shiny hats, mad as Snakes and always late.“If madness is repeating the same mistake over and over in the hope of achieving a different result, come see the inmates in their asylum.”
——- Rabbit wishes he’d thought of that. Scorpy is something, and Rabbit has to admit he is somewhat overcome by the wealth of excellent material he has already given us to work with. He is trying to get up the floor at the moment. You have slain the Rabbit.
“{Free advice, worth what it costs.”——Rabbit for one is grateful. That it is free. He thinks it has cost you a lot though Scorp and Rabbit would like to thank you, very much.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 9, 2005 at 4:37 PM Good girl liz. rabbit too. But it’s bigger than Bush. Rabbit asks again, where is Cheney and what has that toad been up to lately?
But these specimens who we examone in their turn are what it’s all about, sill y girl. They are by their own hand cannon fodder and it is our duty to blow them out of Cannons.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 9, 2005 at 4:41 PM Yoda is an imaginary character. Rabbit is real. Rabbit talks like Rabbit walks with a weird kind of motion. Rabbit is the real thing.
If you can learn to respect Rabbit, your relationaships with all things will improve. Rabbit promise. You may think a Rabbit can’t teach me anything, I am a smart human, who can invent religion and politics and war. What does a Rabbit know? How many religions, or political parties or wars has Rabbits made?
Exactly. Rabbit does not want anything you lot have got which he can’t find himself and usually with much better company thankyou.you are threatening Rabbit’s ideals and those of all living things you ridiculous species. you are nothing more than a species, and you are the same as the rest of the earths creation only to the extent you think you are. You are not as important to this planet and all it’s living things as they are to you.
You are threatening Rabbit’s Ideals,by failing to recognise your own. You are allowing those to whom you sold your ideals for a piece of bread and water to lead you against the only Ideals which can be defined for any species on the Planet.
Rabbit is you is Rabbit, when it comes to the one answer which all of nature knows but which man of all the species has not only lost so long ago, he has not been able to find it again in more tha twenty thousand years.
You mob are slower than you think. Who cares about your stupid shiny things. If it can’t help you, me, us achieve our ever impossible Ideals what good is it.
If it threatens those ideals of anyone or anything then you better be sure there is a good reason, because you are guaranteed they, it will fight back, with all it’s got. That’s why, War, Disease, Pollution, Crime, Famine, Religion, cashes in on the chaos it helps promote.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 9, 2005 at 5:05 PM I’ve been looking on the ‘net.If you want one of those remote-controlled HAARP hurricanes,they have them at The Sharper Image. What fun!
Honestly,does anyone REALLY believe this load of malarkey?
Do you really think that if a republican controlled government could make remote -controlled hurricanes,they wouldn’t be hitting blue states with it?
Just common sense.
Posted by wwoods on Sep 9, 2005 at 7:08 PM Oh,I almost forgot.
Remote -Controlled HAARP Hurricane
item#RHH-7864Choose:Black(B),Silver(S),or Blue(BL)
You must specify color.
Posted by wwoods on Sep 9, 2005 at 7:11 PM -
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