Hurricane Katrina and its disastrous aftermath have stripped away the Mardi Gras veneer and casino gloss of the Gulf Coast region, and disclosed the stark disparities of class and race that persist in 21st century America. The growing gap between the rich and the poor in this country is old but underreported news—perhaps in part because so many of the poor… return to article
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Reader Comments (116)Page 1 of 1 pagesDon’t you you love the right-wing spin on their most recent dropping of the ball.
“Hey,nature happens.”
Sweet.
They knew the hurricane was coming.FEMA had published a lengthy report stating that a hurricane would eventually hit.They knew the approaching hurricane would damage the levees.
Worst of all they had to know that there would be victims.This time,unlike the seven minutes that Bush sat in a daze during 9/11,he sat and did nothing after our country was hit by the worst hurricane in thirty years.Now they wish to absolve themselves from blame.Sorry,Georgie,the southern states WILL remember this one for a while,even if you pass laws that allow southerners to buy guns out of vending machines and restore prayer in school.Hopefully our populace won’t forget the Bush teams irresponsibility as the full scale of this horror is realized.Perhaps a Cindy Sheehan for this recent Bush blunder is needed.
I wonder if we would have this snafu if the Katrina had hit Bush’s brother’s state?
Posted by wwoods on Sep 7, 2005 at 6:41 PM Honestly,what does Bush have to mess up for his toadies to see just how incompetent he is? Come to think of it,I don’t know if I want the answer to that.
Posted by wwoods on Sep 7, 2005 at 6:43 PM I like the fact that this article pointed out not only how the race/poverty correlation was a largel taboo issue in America outside the progressive arena, but how the prevailing conception by the general American public of New Orleans as an upscale, tourist destination that was all fun and games was completely shattered by Katrina. I cannot think of a natural disaster that has so fundamentally altered the public conscience about fundamental issues such as race and poverty as has Katrina. This event may mark the beginning of the end of conservatism in this country.
Posted by Liberal on Sep 7, 2005 at 6:58 PM A poll shows 74% of republicans feel Bush is doing an excellent or good job dealing with the Lake George(formerly New Orleans)debacle. There sure are alot of poor black folk suffering. The last year a majority of white people voted for a Democrat for president was 1964. The last northern Democrat to win the presidency was JFK in 1960. There sure are alot of poor black folk suffering. But I repeat myself looking for a point to make…
Posted by mcartri on Sep 7, 2005 at 7:25 PM Eventually a large meteor will strike the Earth, with the worst case scenario being the possibility of wiping out all humans. Yet Bush does nothing to alleviate this certain but future tragedy, just as Clinton, Bush I, and Reagan before him. Just like the New Orleans disaster. . .
Cost benefit. How much money do we spend to attempt to avert disasters? To make New Orleans able to withstand a direct category 5 hurricane would be VERY expensive. So expensive that it has never actually been seriously proposed. The levees that broke were not even the ones slated for upgrades. How can this be the fault of the feds, much less the current chief executive?
Perhaps some good will come from this. Yes we should rebuild a very limited New Orleans. Permanently condemn the very low lying areas (say those that are 10 feet below the water level) or/and build some of them up higher. And then protect that limited area more robustly. But even then, disasters will still occur (and, of course, they will impact the poor more than the wealthy, at least statistically).
Posted by wolf on Sep 7, 2005 at 7:29 PM mcartri opines: “There sure are alot of poor black folk suffering.”
I think: There sure are alot of poor folk suffering. And some not so poor folk too. Almost like a major tragedy occured. . .
Posted by wolf on Sep 7, 2005 at 7:32 PM Natural disasters don’t distinguish between the races. To put it in Biblical terms an Old Testiment writer put it this way, “God causes the rain to fall on the just and the unjust.” Not so much a blame on God as an observation from experience.
Among those whose homes were destroyed was none other than Trent Lott. Not a favorite of mine, but I wouldn’t wish this on anyone. There are things which no amount of insurance or wealth can replace.
I have to agree that the poor people got the short end (not unusual), but who should know better what their situation was than their mayor? No money — no car — no ticket out.
A lack of funds is a lack of freedom of choices.There is and will continue to be plenty of spin on this from now on. This article for example has mutliple indictments of the Federal government, but they are the last of the three governmental levels responsible in a case like this. It has to do with the way the Constitution disperses power. In this case States’ Rights leave it to the Governor to “invite” Federal involvement. If we think this is wrong, we need to change it.
Posted by whattheheck on Sep 7, 2005 at 8:09 PM Oh. My. God. Leave it to Salim to write some piece of shit article like this. Yeah, it’s (again) some big, racist conspiracy at the heart of the suffering and tragedy of New Orleans.
As I or anyone who’s spent time in that once magnificent city, NONE of this is news. The poverty/race statistics are accurate to my recollections of the city… so who’s surprised that most of the people left behind were of the MAJORITY race? Come on already, blacks make up the bigger percentage of the population, and unfortunately the bigger slice of the poverty pie. This wasn’t a RACE issue; it was a CLASS issue. And contrary to Salim’s blanket assessment, I saw plenty of white folks in the news footage, too.
And, this was also a LOCAL issue! While FEMA/Homeland Security probably could’ve done more, all this represents is a cheap, stupid opportunity to blast Dubya. Don’t get me wrong, there’s plenty of rope for him but in this case, sorry, nada.
CONGRESS ultimately puts the financial kabosh on funding for research/enginering of the levees, floodwalls (the part that actually broke) and pumping systems. This has been going on for several administrations, not just Dubya’s.
But what about loudmouth mayor Ray Nagin? His very own office drafted plans on what to do in just such an emergency and yet he somehow managed to virtually ignore it. Case in point: watch the footage… see those rows and rows of empty school and municipal buses sitting in floodwaters unused? According to Nagin’s own plans, these were to be used to transport people in an evacuation.
What did he do? Let them sit dormant. Failed to arrange for adequate security at the Superdome. Issued a weak evacuation order that only yesterday turned into a “forced” order. The Governor of Louisiana failed to ask for help, which is the first part in initiating pleas for Federal assistance. Dubya did his part in declaring the place a disaster area early on; what, the hell, were the local and state officials doing?
Oh yeah… mouthing off and swearing in the media! Well done, guys… well done.
Posted by g-love on Sep 7, 2005 at 8:26 PM Adding insult to injury, FEMA’s Brown has ordered the media not to photograph the dead bodies in New Orleans. He’s blocking cameramen from accompanying the search crews. He’s had enough bad press.
Reasonable? Of course not. It’s a slam-dunk violation of the 1st Amendment and freedom of the press. Anyone, dead or alive, can be photographed in a public place. Although morbid, a wide-ranging collection of dead-body photos would simply be part of the truth of what happened in New Orleans.
So here we have the chief of the same agency whose inaction and murderous policies—turning away many relief parties through Day 5, who could have significantly reduced the death toll—unconstitutionally gagging the press to stop production of images that show the agency’s murderous handiwork.
In-freaking-tolerable.
Remove that incompetent and begin criminal prosecution under 18 USC 241—conspiracy against citizen rights—immediately. He is another Bush administration felon-in-waiting. Per the penalties cited in 18 USC 241, his sentence on conviction will be life imprisonment or the death penalty. Richly deserved.
See “FEMA Blocks Photos of New Orleans Dead”
Editor & Publisher, 07 September 2005
http://www.mediainfo.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=100105576 68
Posted by Stephen Neitzke on Sep 7, 2005 at 10:44 PM g-love wrote “The Governor of Louisiana failed to ask for help, which is the first part in initiating pleas for Federal assistance. Dubya did his part in declaring the place a disaster area early on; what, the hell, were the local and state officials doing?”.
This is clearly not the case, and the lie and its retraction are well documented. Both Govenor Blanco and President Bush declared a state of emergency on August 27.
There is an excellent timeline of events at http://talkingpointsmemo.com/katrina-timeline.php
Posted by arekd on Sep 8, 2005 at 12:41 AM Wood,
What are you talking about?
wood wrote “I wonder if we would have this snafu if the Katrina had hit Bush’s brother’s state?”Six hurricanes and a couple tropical storms have hit Florida in the last thirteen months. It took three days to get food, ice and water to my area after Francis. My brother went down to do search and rescue after Charlie, they we doing that well past a week.
What you have in New Orleans is a Mayor and Governor that abandened their citizens, and FEMA has 90,000 square miles, compared to New Orleans 300, of disaster area to assist.
By the way LIBERAL, your hopes of this bringing down conservatives, do not bet on it.
13% of americans do not blame BUSH. CNN/USATODAY/GALLOP poll:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/07/katrina.poll/
Posted by think4yourself on Sep 8, 2005 at 1:02 AM WTH.
Please return to previous thread. Rabbit has something to say to you, Tis a little long, but it is “critical” if you are to maintain the ground you have gained. Rabbit promises you will thank him for it. Let us first turn around once and look behind ourselves before we defend the messiah and his merry men. Nothing occurs in vacuum, least of all a debate.
You must address the first step fully, you will understand. Rabbit to and fro must weld and grind boat a bit. But is here.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 8, 2005 at 3:02 AM Same to you Think, he has no desire to be meaner than necessary. Please note that Rabbit’s meanest words ever which were censored, have been re-instated on DU thread, if anybody wondered what “that” was about.
The lesson in Government disinfo agents is worth the long read.
Rabbit is vindicated.
.. Dance. Happy Wabbit..@
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 8, 2005 at 3:06 AM Arekd, I stand by my comments, you’re getting some bad info. Yes, Dubya and Blanco both declared on the 27th; but where was Blanco/Nagin’s mouth prior to this? Clearly, the local/state government were as much - or more - a part of the problem as the Feds.
Posted by g-love on Sep 8, 2005 at 4:04 AM g-love, nothing occurs in a vacuum. The current, catastrophe, and a week later it is still current did not happen out of the blue as a single failure in an otherwise spotless administration. Apportioning the amount of blame within the various cells of the administration of your nation says nothing except that you Americans have still not learnt a dam thing.
The end result of apportioning blame will not diminish the amount of blame which falls onto the administration as a collective. One hundred percent.
Before any Dittoheads spout, acts of god or whatever other slogans work for you, at this moment, consider this.
Katrina did not happen within a vacuum. Before giving the administration any benefit of the doubt, is it not relevant to ask what is their track record like? What has their previous performance been like.
Of all the things which have come out of the mouth of George Bush, is there anyone who can prove anything of consequence has ever come out of George Bush or any in his administration which later proved to be the truth?
Rabbit is just guessing here but doubts anyone has got a thing which will be important enough not to be laughed out of cyberspace or totally disproven by Rabbit and many others who will eat you alive if you try and pass off any slippery tricks of avoidance. Straight up or shut up. No Bush-speak. We have time to talk about Bush-love if that’s your choice, but not to dance around the central theme of the battle in which we have all come to play our part.
Should George W. Bush and his recognisable Junta, be allowed to maintain control of your country, your only country at this juncture in time. When to all intents and purposes your country seems to be falling under the Jackboot of Martial Law, followed by Chaos and Tyrany.
You know in your heart that you have no “FREEDOMS” left. You have been sloganising and bullshitting to yourselves for so long. Nobody except a dwindling percentage of Americans and a handfull of Aussies and Brits, thinks America has anything of value left to offer even it’s own citizens.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 8, 2005 at 4:59 AM You not only cannot see what is happening on your bloody TV sets, now, finally right there where you always said was the only place you would believe it. You still don’t believe it.
Rabbit knows why you don’t believe it. Rabbit always knew the awesome depth of the delusions of HUMANS. It is one of the things which makes them so fascinating to ET races for those who are interested. (This comment was above your head if you didn’t have a moment of epiphany upon reading it)
Rabbit knows why you cannot see the truth now on your TV’s. If your black and poor it probably seems a lot closer and more scary. If you are not poor and black then it must be even harder to imagine yourself in there.
Some of you are waiting to see your own house on TV before you realise you are in that same world that is being so imperfectly imparted to you via that stupid, electronic box and its peripheral Newspapers and Radio lackeys.
Even when the troops are marching past your doors to enforce a daily curfew you will, still be on here telling us how you are glad they are protecting your freedoms and even if things are not perfect they will be. If only people stopped resisting.
Not the evil terrorists who you know are just plain evil. Your brave soldiers are killing them over in faraway countries to stop them overruning you in your homes.
Stay safey locked up in your Nanny sate with your Patriotic Acts, and your endless, vacuus, often self defeating slogans.
Nothing you people say makes any sense any more. Shall I list the last Ten Bushisms Rabbit has heard? Several of them on this very site. Worthy of the Sheik of strangled syntax himself.
The thing is guys you are not living in a vacuum, (or a vacuum tube LCD display). these things we are debating are not merely theory. They relate to verything real there is. Stop arguing and debating, find the right questions to ask, then for all our sakes, work together to find the answer. If we are all 99% the same, (see Rabbit’s other rants) then why should the TRUE facts not lead to the TRUE answer. If the answer is not to be found in your FACTS, then you are using the wrong facts or asking the wrong question. How should a search for truth become ever more complicated which is all you HUMANS do when you argue without separating your facts from opinions and recognising the difference.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 8, 2005 at 5:16 AM Reflecting upon Stephen Neitzke’s post above, I personally hope that freelance photogs and as well a few gutsy media players simply disobey the order not to photograph. Damn their PR needs, Amendment 1 takes precedence.
When flag-draped coffins from our wars were excluded from publication, I was livid. And though it seems tangential to bring that up, the whole concept of these people cooking the data for us, trying to limit our access to information for their own agenda of sanitizing the public’s reactions in advance is appalling. True colors being revealed, as far as I’m concerned.
They love that “freedom” word, until it’s inconvenient for them.
Respect to the disobedient ones who shoot and publish their photos, in advance.
Posted by Kuya on Sep 8, 2005 at 8:28 AM think4yourself,
Thank you for the standard right-wing guff.I was wondering when I would be called"liberal” as an insult.Coming from Republicans and their crypto-fascist policies,that’s a compliment.
Still,despite the delays after hurricane Charlie,you did get relief sooner than New Orleans.Where your area is was a bit vague.Then again,leave it to the far-right/way-wrong to use vagaries when trying to win an argument,like bad salesmen.
The fact that this was a category five hurricane should have immediately set off klaxons with the Bush team.It didn’t.Just like Al-Qaeda in 2001,Bush knew of an inevitable threat and when it hit,he sat around and waited.
Thirteen percent of Americans don’t blame Bush.By right-wing logic,or lack of,and mimicing their ability to twist facts to suit their goal,that means eighty-seven percent of Americans DO blame Bush.
think4yourself?
I don’t think so!
As expected,the far-right/way-wrong has slid into their second argument"You can’t blame Bush.He’s doing the best he can!“Unfortunately,given the delay of his response,to say nothing of him crippling FEMA to help fund tax cuts for the rich,his"best"is nowhere near good enough.
Had this been Clinton:
Similarities:people would be dead,the opposition would gripe about not getting the aid there sooner.
Differences:there would have been some kind of a plan beyond the faith-based initiative that the hurricane would lessen in intensity before it hit,relief would not have taken four days,and Republicans would be saying that Katrina is a ploy to draw attention away from Monica.
In addition to aid to New Orleans,might i recommend we send velcro gloves to Bush so he doesn’t drop the next ball.
Posted by wwoods on Sep 8, 2005 at 12:39 PM I see think4yuorself was addressing Lberal in stead of me.My bad.Still,Republicans are proponents of crypto-fascism.
After they privatize our government,then they’ll break out the colored shirts and armbands.
One last thing,what does anyone want to bet that for all the money given to rebuild the citiy and help the people,at least twice as much will be given to help the oil companies.The amount of which and how it was used will not have to be disclosed,of course—national security.Audits only embolden the terrorists.Does anyone want to speculate that Halliburton will be given some sort of contract with an undisclosed.Gee,from the right perspective,you really can make lemons into lemonade!
Posted by wwoods on Sep 8, 2005 at 12:59 PM my bad
13% DO blame Bush
38% blame noone
25% blame local
18% blame FEDi was on my way to bed
check the link
Posted by think4yourself on Sep 8, 2005 at 2:04 PM 09/11 - New York suffered a major attack with no warning, with 3000 dead and destruction of two of the most prominent building in the world. Under the inspired and inspiring leadership of Mayor Guiliani and with the strong support of Governor Pataki, police and firemen led a heroic response, injured were dispatched to medical sites, and the damage was contained and cleaned up. There was major support and involvement by the citizens of New York in caring for the injured and cleaning up the mess.
Florida Hurricanes, 2004 - An unprecedented four hurricanes hit Florida in 2004, resulting in 49 deaths and much destruction. Emergency plans and evacuations were put in effect under Governor Bush, and deaths were limited.
Katrina, Mississippi, 2005 - Governor Barbour initiated emergency procedures and called out the National Guard on August 26, three days before Katrina made a direct hit on Mississippi. Damage was total in some of the Gulf Coast communities, and final deaths have not been tallied, but evacuations were prompt and effective.
Katrina, Louisiana, 2005 - With a Cat 5 hurricane bearing down, Governor Blanco and New Orleans Mayor Nagin delayed taking action until called by President Bush on August 27. On the morning of August 28, 24 hours before landfall, Mayor Nagin called for an evacuation and 80% of the residents of New Orleans got out ahead of the storm. With such short notice from the Governor and the Mayor, normal emergency steps were not undertaken: school and city buses were not mobilized, stocks of food and water were not pre-positioned, and sandbags and emergency equipment were not mobilized at the levees. All these items are spelled out in the New Orleans emergency procedures, but the local officials that were responsible activated none of them. People who were without transportation went to the Convention Center and the domed stadium, where there was chaos: no food, no water, no crowd control, no preparation of any sort. Thugs and looter roamed the city. Some of the New Orleans Police (designated first responders) responded by going AWOL and some joined the looters. After President Bush had stepped in and urged Governor Blanco and Mayor Nagin to take action in accordance with their own emergency procedures, Blanco, Nagin, Democrats in Congress, and every Liberal with access to a computer decided that the hurricane and the poor response to the hurricane were all Bush’s fault.
All the state and local officials in the above narrative are Republicans, except for Governor Blanco and Mayor Nagin in Louisiana, who are Democrats.
Now do you understand why voters keep electing Republicans over Democrats?
Posted by scorp on Sep 8, 2005 at 5:47 PM Scorp is repeating a GOP talking point when he says the reason why Blanco declared Louisiana and New Orleans a disaster area was because of a call from George Bush. The original “evidence” for this claim was in AP article that merely pointed out that shortly before the press conference Bush spoke with Governor Blanco. The conservative blogosphere then distorted the assertion to satisfy a pre-existing belief. To anyone with a brain, the press conference had already been scheduled so it is unlikely that Bush’s call minutes before provided the impetus for Blanco to make such a large decision. Rather, it is MUCH more likely that Blanco had already made the decision to declare her state a disaster area BEFORE Bush’s call. The only major news network to make scorp’s accusation, FOX News. How surprising.
Furthermore, school buses are meant for CHILDREN passengers, not adults. To fill a school bus with adults would dramatically alter the weight of the vehicle, requiring specialized operating permits for drivers and additional training. Not likely that the city of New Orleans could have trained several hundred drivers in a couple of days with existing resources.
Finally, the Department of Homeland Security proclaims on its own website that it will take the lead in coordinating disaster relief efforts. As soon as Bush declared Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama a federal disaster area, he accepted the responsibility of the relief and restoration of order efforts.
Case closed.
Posted by Liberal on Sep 8, 2005 at 6:28 PM liberal,
The G.O.P.and their mean machine have received their programming,as evidenced by the posts above.It’s going to do about as much good argung with them as it would arguing with a soda machine that took your money.If only they were as good at organizing relief as they are at organizing their spin when they mess up.
I know why people vote Republican over Democrat,if you trust the election results.
The Republicans are better at creating propaganda.Most con-artists work hard at perfecting their craft.It just pains me to see so many people dead because this administration spends so much more effort on wording than working.
Posted by wwoods on Sep 8, 2005 at 7:06 PM Liberal said,
“school buses are meant for CHILDREN passengers, not adults”
What?
When I played football in HS we used school buses. We were the same weight as adults.
Nice try.
Posted by think4yourself on Sep 8, 2005 at 7:09 PM think4yourself: Then your driver had an additional license and supplemental training. Only a limited number of drivers have such qualifications. Your anecdotal evidence STILL does not invalidate my initial claim.
Posted by Liberal on Sep 8, 2005 at 7:18 PM CNN recorded Governor Blanco’s actual statement concerning Bush’s phone call as follows:
“Just before we walked into this room, President Bush called and told me to share with all of you that he is very concerned about the citizens. He is concerned about the impact that this hurricane would have on our people. And he asked me to please insure that there would be a mandatory evacuation of New Orleans.”Later that evening, Governor Blanco spoke with Larry King about Bush’s phone call. She told King that the president “Was glad to hear that the mayor had already decided to do a mandatory evacuation.”
Did you hear that scorp? Would you kindly sit down?
Posted by Liberal on Sep 8, 2005 at 7:20 PM Liberal -
“Scorp is repeating a GOP talking point when he says the reason why Blanco declared Louisiana and New Orleans a disaster area was because of a call from George Bush.”
Nice try, Liberal. Here is the quote.
“Gov. Kathleen Blanco, standing beside the mayor at a news conference, said President Bush called and personally appealed for a mandatory evacuation for the low-lying city, which is prone to flooding.”
http://www.nola.com/newsflash/louisiana/index.ssf?/base/news-18/1125239940201382 2.xml&storylist=louisiana
So Liberal, are you going to believe me, or your lying eyes? And just out of curiosity, I would be interested to see “a GOP talking point” that I have copied from. Surely it wouldn’t be too much trouble to document your weird assertion.
“Furthermore, school buses are meant for CHILDREN passengers, not adults.”
Think has commented on this, but there are other things to be considered. The New Orleans Hurricane Emergency Plan called for city buses and school buses to be mobilized and used to evacuate people who had no other transportation. Quite apart from Mayor Nagin’s failure to activate the Emergency Plan, do you think the Emergency Plan was built around the use of inadequate buses? Since buses for high school students are clearly sufficient for adults, are you telling me that there is a separate class of identical buses built to lower specifications that are to be used exclusively for younger children? And do you really believe that there are separate classes of Chauffeur’s Licences for school buses, depending on the age of the children being driven?
“As soon as Bush declared Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama a federal disaster area, he accepted the responsibility of the relief and restoration of order efforts.”
Is that why some of the NOPD went AWOL, and some of them joined the looters? Why didn’t the police and fireman go home on 09/11, and in Florida, and in Mississippi when a federal disaster was declared?
One final question, Liberal. Are you a Karl Rove plant, sent to further screw up the pathetic Liberal efforts to discredit President Bush?
Posted by scorp on Sep 8, 2005 at 7:45 PM How pathetic it is the denial of people who feel that any legitimate criticism of George Bush is an attempt to discredit the man. What nonsense. The man has no credibility to begin with….and his statement that no one could have predicted the breeches in the levees is all the proof you need about the administration that also couldn’t have predicted the use of planes as weapons on 9/11.
The saddest part of all this is the thought of what this world…and New Orleans might look like today IF Bush had not been pushed into office by the complicit and corrupt corporate media. What if the levees had been shored up because there was no George Bush to take the funding away from the Corps of Engineers and divert it to Iraq. What if there had been no Iraq war, and thousands of people - including our own troops, were still alive?
Read this and understand: Shaming the Devil…
CLICK HERE
Posted by skipper7 on Sep 8, 2005 at 8:06 PM Scorp, I am not saying that there is a separate group of buses that are used for just ransporting adults or eople above a certain age. Thanks for putting words in my mouth.
What I DID say was that the increased weight of the school bus requires an altogether separate driving approach, additional training and another license.
Regardless of New Orleans’ evacuation plan, you have yet to refute the fundamental charge that it is the federal government’s responsibility to lead the disaster recovery effort and assist in the evacuation of areas at risk of destruction. DHS is obligated by law to do this, but failed.
How ‘bout them apples?
Posted by Liberal on Sep 8, 2005 at 8:20 PM What if we all just lived in peace and harmony? What if Saddam had seen the errors of his ways, and began making restitution to his victims? What if Katrina had just dissipated?
Never mind. What if’s are pretty stupid. . .
Posted by wolf on Sep 8, 2005 at 8:52 PM I find it so humorous that racist Rupublicans come to this site and actually expect that their lies will change anyones mind.
Bush golfed while New Orleans drowned.
Bush birthday partied while New Orleans died.That’s all I need to know to understand compassionate conservatism.
Reminds me of the worst of the Roman Empire, Nero fiddled while Rome burned.
Posted by Jon B on Sep 8, 2005 at 10:01 PM Yes, if only Bush had saved New Orleans. But then again, us racists really wanted to drown all the poor black folk, the “secret” is out. Sure, that’s the ticket. And certainly the city and state officials did their valiant best, but were stymied all the way by the evil Repubs. . .
Geez. Jon does it really make it easier for you to pretend that those who think differently are caricatures? Perhaps there might really be more than one side to the story. . .???:
Posted by wolf on Sep 8, 2005 at 10:52 PM Liberal,
I will admit I do not know how NO handles certification for bus drivers, but in every town I have lived in the elementary, middle and high schools started at different times. This is because they use the SAME drivers and buses to pick up all the kids. So your weight and class of drivers license theory is BS.
Think
Posted by think4yourself on Sep 8, 2005 at 11:50 PM Because of this unfortunate inncident, everyone once again, have been exposed to the reality of what People of Color and The Poor experience at the hands of politians and the Rich and Powerful. And again it will be just a mere conversation about the discriminitive practices of our elective officials. You act as if this is new or an isolated incident. Haven’t you acknowledged what Poor people have experiecned since the beginning of time? So why should a delayed responce from our (Somebodies) officials cause you wonder? Look at the living condition of each community. Statistics have shown that Mississippi and New Orleans have the highest poverty rate in the nation. So is it any wonder that they received “The Usual” treatment? People, no matter what happens the lies and excuses that will follow, will only reflect the truth of our government, it only serves thoes that they can benifit from or promote their careers and financial indeavors.
Posted by Jewell on Sep 9, 2005 at 12:38 AM Thinky and Scorpy, Rabbit thought you pair had stopped mating, but here you are hard at it again. Rabbit warns Thinky that Scorpy is way beneath you in intellect and is frankly quite a liability to any argument he espouses. Rabbit has some work to do but will be back to put Scorpy back into his box. Anybody who has seen the Unnatural Disaster thread will understand. They may also notice as has Rabbit that you have progressed a little bit in articulating things and you powers of reason give some indication they are about to awaken.
DH Boys if you can’t get over your Bush-love frenzy, at least don’t underestimate the sense of Wwoods words. He and others have pointed out the flaws of your argument. Rabbit just has one question for you now.
Just as an aside DHs another wierd fact for you to assimilate. Neither Rabbit nor any of the millions of different varieties of “Liberals” which surround you has any less loathing for at least the top twelve members of the Junta. BushChimp is a foul, psychotic, lunatic. Cheney is a vile, stinking sack of evil and the Real President. Bush is not actually allowed to touch any of the buttons. He is only there to humiliate people like you who actually seem to know that he is in every way your emperor, yet are too stupid to realise that this is not something to be proud of.
On what basis should we award benefit of the doubt on Bush or any memeber of his Junta
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 9, 2005 at 1:01 AM Question: On what basis should Bush and his JUNTA be awarded any benefit of the doubt when there exists as much doubt as there clearly does in this case? What have they ever done right? At what time have they ever intentionally told the truth about any major action they have undertaken? The first time? Or for that matter the second third or fourth time as the case may be?
It is one question Scorpy and Thinky, THINK4YOURSELF and you may understand the Rabbit’s one question. He only need one answer to get a debate based on the simplest establishable FACT. We can begin with one thing.
Rabbit is intentionally avoiding the Race issue which is the heart of this thread and its Rabbit’s intention to address this in his final analysis. In the mean time we must establish actual facts and work with them. Rabbit does not give a RATS (sorry Rat) about anyone’s opinions. Once we establish what Facts if any somebody bases their opinions upon, then we can finally discover what we are actually fighting about and maybe find closure for everyone sooner than you might think.
Scorpthinky the first Bush honest act please?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 9, 2005 at 1:12 AM BTW Scorpthinky drop in once in awhile and let us know how the search is going, and feel free to give up anytime and others will then explain what this means for your assertion that Bush does not lie.
That is after all a pretty ambitious statement to make of anyone, but is of course in keeping with your world view. All or nothing. You’re either with us or you are against us.
Damn it, the Rabbit just answered his own question. BUSHLER said that and blast if it isn’t the truth.
Does that count anybody, does that count as Bushler telling the Truth?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 9, 2005 at 5:11 AM I haven’t been altogether comfortable with the race issue as a central theme of the scenario as it unfolded in New Orleans. I also don’t believe that anyone ignored the flood waters *because* the majority of the inhabitants of the area were black.
What I do find interesting is how the administration is so focused on perception being reality, and how little mileage they are getting on this huge PR effort.
If you are a black man or woman in this country, there is a high probability that you feel race played a substantial role in the response. If I were a member of the administration, or the GOP for that matter, I would wonder why that was the case. It is clear that they do not know the answer - or understand the question.
What has the administration done to foster any notion of unity between members of different ethnic groups, social classes or ideologies? He really couldn’t have done less in my opinion. Bush’s approach is really at odds with his stated identity as a uniter and not a divider.
National prayer day? Oh yeah, that ought to do it.
Posted by GrayArea on Sep 9, 2005 at 6:27 AM OK here goes…
I think the assertion that Bush is racist and doesn’t care about African Americans is groundless. Kanye West, though he was in the midst of a very intense emotional reaction to the obvious suffering of New Orleans citizens (hopefully non-blacks as well as blacks), was off base. And even though it might be somehow “understandable”, that doesn’t make the assertion factual or supportable by evidence. Real evidence of racism, I mean, of which I’ve seen nothing convincing connected to Mr Bush.
For that matter, the experience of being victimized by active racism, which plenty of AfAms have had, does not qualify one to make charges of racism against the president or anyone else just because of their dismal experiences. We can sympathize with their plight and work hard to correct the social and legal deficiencies that foster the racism that is still apparent in American life, but we shouldn’t think that simply being a victim qualifies one as having a clearer or more worthy perspective. Point of view should not be final consideration. Evidence should be.
The New Orleans/Gulf Coast disaster was the result of unimplemented plans, lack of forethought, appallingly slow reaction time, diversion of necessary funds and human resources, and failure to replace or supplement those resources that had been directed away from disaster preparedness (toward, for example, military commitments). Incompetence and malfeasance, arguably so. Racism? There’s not enough to back the charge.
The disaster in the Gulf Coast region says more about short-sighted approaches to taxation and an appropriate role for government than anything else. It points up the reality that the building and maintenance of infrastructure, with all the benefits derived from it, comes from investment. In fact, virtually every material necessity or creature comfort derives from that, from investment. It results from the devotion of material resources and human work to create things that allow us to overcome or mitigate the effects of powerful forces of nature that can harm human beings. The rebuilding of Japan and Germany after WWII? Investment. The interstate highway system? Investment. Effective schools v. poor ones? Same. Levees, drainage systems, and emergency plans and provisions. Same same same. It’s all about the willingness to pay, and the actions of building and re-building those things that make human life better (or in some cases, possible at all in a given locality).
I’m much more convinced by arguments that emphasize issues like the need for adequate federal taxation and allocation of revenues toward infrastructural maintenance, or the results of neglected needs like sufficient helicopter airlift capacity, or the lack of law enforcement (incl. the law and order function of national guardsmen who were transferred overseas and no new ones recruited), or bureaucratic dithering and time wasting blame-games. Those are much more convincing criticisms.
An argument that incompetence or dereliction of duty was at work could perhaps be brought, but those are charges that can be spread around very broadly indeed. If Bush carries that burden, he’s surely not alone, and he’s not even the one with the greatest burden. That one falls to local and state authorities.
(continued)
Posted by Kuya on Sep 9, 2005 at 8:38 AM (to continue)
The aspect of racism in these events that has me much more disturbed, and for which there’s more evidence, is connected to media depictions of the victims. Blacks have been said “loot” food from flooded stores, whites “find” food in those stores. The automatic assumption that a dark complected man is “looting” when he desperately searches for something on which to survive (since no one did a damn thing for him for days after the storm!) says much more about mean-spirited popular assumptions and race-based jumping to conclusions than anything else. That’s really more of an indictment of American culture at large, and of the news industry in particular. Frankly, that’s more worrying to me than the speculation that George Bush is a hater of non-Cauc people, which really doesn’t have much back-up. His cabinet appointments alone refute that claim.As for the rich v. poor evaluation, it will be supported to the extent that there’s evidence that wealthy regions get quick and adequate government help in the face of disaster compared to poorer regions. Floridians might have a word to say on that score. The answer is supplied by actual events on record. For that matter, the racial assertions can be supported or refuted on that basis too. What’s the pattern of response from government, when disaster hits? That tells the story.
My issues with George Bush are numerous. I didn’t vote for him either time, and his approaches to taxation, marriage rights, and war in Iraq (though not Afghanistan, which I backed) are among the things that make me wish he had not been re/elected. If he partied on while Orleanians suffered, we can say that he’s out of touch or callous, but if those are attributes of his they’re not particularly linked to ethnicity; a majority AfAm city is not an exclusively AfAm city; and everyone left behind was traumatized and damn near abandoned. But to call him racist is unproductive, unfounded, and frankly (I believe) will tend to feed an eventual Bush-favoring reaction among the public, most of whom will see no reason for such an inflammatory charge.
What are the records of past natural disasters (or other crises) during which Bush was the primary decision-maker or director of policy implementation? Is there a racial differential? Again, that will tell the story. Short of that, we might be angry with his quality of leadership and think his administration’s agenda is harmful to America and the world, but that’s not the same as racism and we shouldn’t confuse them.
Posted by Kuya on Sep 9, 2005 at 8:39 AM GrayArea you are probably right thinks Rabbit, in one sense about the issue of race not having anything to do with the lack of help, not directly, anyway.
If we are to hypothesise that this event was in some way intentional from the point of view of the next major shift in public programming, the the race issue becomes critical from another perspective. Rabbit predicted day two that deqaths would be tens of thousands and official estimates were but a thousand. As Rabbit said then, the tragedy is that most of those people are yet to die. This is no less true this very minute.
The Army, a large invasion force for such an area even by USA usual standards. 58,000 was last number Rabbit heard. The body bags are ordered, ready for about 30,000 - 40,000. Most of those people are just stuck in the zone and trying to survive, they probably don’t know they are about to be invaded, standard US practice for invasions too, isn’t it?
In the end Rabbit expects to see the usual result. The clue to the victims being Black, is they are a minority, albeit not too far removed from the majority in “race”, being American born, for the ovveriding lesson to be lost on the populace. Poor too means they are the weakest most marginalised.
The similarities to “REAL AMERICANS” like themselves was not lost on anybody, yet Dittoheads who are mostly not poor, or Black, were able to feel safe.
It’s OK they are just poor blacks, they had nothing anyway so what have they lost?
Next will be the slightly better off crowd, or was that the lesson being perpetrated in the police assault on a Legal Rage Party in Utah recently? About 3000 mostly teenage, middle class kids probably looking a little differently at New Orleans than many of their comrades just now.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 9, 2005 at 9:33 AM BTW Grayarea, the divide and conquer tactic is standard NWO fare. Bliar and Howard too. The Arse-licker, John Howard is probably the absolute master of splintering a nation down every concievable fault line. And a few made up ones for good measure.
Bushler has good handlers in some ways, Rabbit fears Howhard does not need them.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 9, 2005 at 9:37 AM Kuya, your post is actually very interesting. You appear to Rabbit to have attained a firm grasp of certain essential faults with the prgram, from within the program. This is good.
Rabbit means no harm by this, almost everyone has come from within the program or is still in it. Rabbit recognises still a flaw, in your otherwise very articulate, mostly true words, (To Rabbit).
Problem comes from assumptions, certain assumptions which not sustained by facts. You always knew the Emperor had no fashiom sense, and even probably recognise his nakedness at the crucial times. Still you think the Castle is solid, it’s foundations firm. The court is in order, it just needs a change to Democrats, who surely would have done things differently. Rabbit is not so sure you ahev any reason to make that assumption. Just like the opposition party, in Britain and Oz they grumble and pontificate but never give any indication they would have handled anything much different. (why do all our multiparty systems dejenerate into two party systems?)
It is not a few small changes to who and how the country is being run, it is time to shine a light on what and who exactly is responsible for what is no longer just a series of bad luck.
Rabbit does not mean New Orleans, he is thinking USA then.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 9, 2005 at 10:02 AM I was looking over the other thread on this site pertaining to Katrina to examine the right-wing spin.I’m not congratulating myself,but it turns out I was right.The Republicans are trying to claim victory while trying to figure out how to blame the Democrats for Katrina.The posts on this thread only confirm this—mindless drivel!
Gee,maybe I should change my posting name to Clair Voyant.No,there’s no real challenge in predicting Republican behavior.They are a simple bunch.All they need is to be able to feel good about hating an enemy.
Meanwhile,I’m still wondering what Bush’s next dropped ball will be.Maybe the next one will be
a plane carrying hurricanes will slam into a load of wmd’s that are supposed to be in a country we’re invading to help pay for another round of tax cuts for billionaire anti-abortionist supreme court justices who’ll rescue social security from illegal immigrants.Bush will then sit in his office for a week while the Fox News crowd come up with conclusive rumors that it’s all Hillary’s fault,justifying another rise in gas prices.Sounds far-fetched?Maybe.then again,if you had asked me ten years ago if I thought anyone would sit around after our country had been attacked and delay in any way to deliver relief to a city hit by the worst hurricane in thirty years,I would have said that’s farcical.
Onward right-wing voters!
Blame it on the poor!
Posted by wwoods on Sep 9, 2005 at 12:48 PM One other thing,
Who said it’s wrong to say that elements,or even leaders,of the republican party are racist?
Excuse me,but didn’t every bigot in america turn Republican when a Democrat broke the back of the KKK and ramrodded the civil rights acts down the throats of southerners?Ask a Klansmen,or a Christian identity follower if they vote democrat—be prepared to duck!Didn’t Bush the Elder smear Dukakis with an ad to make middle-class America afraid that if Dukakis was elected,he would unroll a big rock from in front of a cave and let out all the black rapists?In my state Jesse Helms,a republican,ran an entire election campaign based on the principle that"If’n youse vote fo’ dat black man to be da sennatuh,dem darkies be takins yo job away”.It,unfortunately,worked.People wonder why my state is always in the bottom ten percent educationally.I don’t know.Furthermore,let’s look at the fear machine created by Fox News regarding the immigration of illegal aliens.Do we dare claim that there isn’t race involved there.Mexicans take away american jobs.Sure Sean,like you took up broadcasting because a Mexican stole the very last job picking strawberries for a buck an hour.Meanwhile Fox praises the Barney Fife Brigade,I mean the Minutemen(or is it minute men,for they are certainly lilliputian in their perspective),who protect us from hordes of minimum-wage coveting job-seekers,while ignoring the FACT—FACT!FACT!FACT!-that rich white guys are selling out the country from underneath us by exporting,not only arms,but also our jobs,to third-world countries.
Didn’t Reagan’s most memorable lie,I mean reason,for slashing welfare rest on a made-up story of a black woman receiving dozens of welfare check under phony names.By the way,she used only three.Still…well,the nerve!
Eight thousand characters per post limits examples.But,obviously,Republicans are not racist and are not hostile to anyone not like them,and I don’t know how these rumors get started so let’s blame the Democrats because they,not us,accuse their enemy of their own worst crime!
Posted by wwoods on Sep 9, 2005 at 1:22 PM Hi, Wwoods. Have you checked the DU thread since last saw you there. When you have a minute check out the Final and Rabbit means final act. He promises you like it.
The surprise he leaves to last, as you must. he promises the wait will heighten the pleasure. Rabbit agress with you about the Repugs and their tactics. Fears he does the next thing will be less dropping the ball than the Bomb.
Has anybody seen Cheney about Lately.
Rabbit standing up looking about, sees something dark off in the distance.
Where is Cheney?
Don’t we seem to be short of Cheny at the moment, the EVIL WARLORD himself?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 9, 2005 at 2:47 PM If racism is observable in a person’s speech or behavior, whether they’re a regular citizen or a power-player, then they can fairly be called racist. Part of my point was that George Bush, for all of his flaws and although I think he’s way more harm than good, just doesn’t come off as a racist. The hurricane hit where it hit and many African Americans lived there (with all their different colored neighbors) and went through hell. If an earthquake swacked the San Fernando Valley, would they get better taken care of?
I don’t know that answer but if someone thinks they do, I just ask that it be backed up.
In reference to racist attitudes being ascribed to an entire political party, I really prefer to stick to individual cases on things like this, rather than generalize to groups. I imaginatively say to myself, “Republicans are racist,” and it doesn’t ring true. I can see big money and big religion motivating them, but not racial exclusion. And really, if I start looking at history, neither big party looks anything much more than incrementally, grudgingly, glacially slow at just pushing legal and (if you like thinking this way) cosmic equality among all citizens (no, that’s people) and following through with it finally.
The system broke down for everybody, because it wasn’t tended properly, because there was a preoccupation with all the damn fighting and an unwillingness to get people to pony up if they want good services. Especially people with rafts of cash, but really everybody.
A dose of decisive service to the people they claim authority over and some forethought and follow-through from the bureacrats would help too.
Posted by Kuya on Sep 9, 2005 at 4:16 PM There’s not even a genetic basis for race as a concept, it’s just a fucking suntan. It’s a humiliation that we’re still stuck on it.
Posted by Kuya on Sep 9, 2005 at 4:26 PM Hey, wwoods, nice to see you again! I’m missing my old friends Margaret, Lefty, Richard… (sigh). Wonder what’s happened to Jack Barnes/Michael Hardesty?
Yeah - and WHY are these recent threads quite FULL of Repug trolls/defenders, and a few liberals beating them back… when they SHOULD be full of EXULTANT liberals plotting the downfall of Bush on the grounds that Katrina exposed neo-conservatism and economic neo-liberalism FOR WHAT IT IS!!! Junk! Every cloud has a silver lining and Katrina should mean we get rid of Bush. Like Nero burning down Rome got rid of Nero - eventually!
Well, there’s no-one to blame but Repugs and their tax cuts for this one!
I dig this excerpt:-
“Just as an aside DHs another wierd fact for you to assimilate. Neither Rabbit nor any of the millions of different varieties of “Liberals” which surround you has any less loathing for at least the top twelve members of the Junta. BushChimp is a foul, psychotic, lunatic. Cheney is a vile, stinking sack of evil and the Real President. Bush is not actually allowed to touch any of the buttons. He is only there to humiliate people like you who actually seem to know that he is in every way your emperor, yet are too stupid to realise that this is not something to be proud of.On what basis should we award benefit of the doubt on Bush or any memeber of his Junta”...
Hey GhostRabbit, go on like that and I might even come to like you!!
Posted by Liz on Sep 9, 2005 at 5:00 PM Ghost is just a vehicle , needed when there was abit of scuffle when a fight with a real dragon spilled over from the Radioactive wounds thread. All is in order again and Rabbit has found a great hunting ground for it seems infested with a strangely fascinating class of “representative” trolls.
An de fun aint done momma.
Do you want Rabbit to call any trolls out from the woodwork, he knows how to call them, even a couple of different calls to narrow dow the particular species you seek?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 9, 2005 at 5:48 PM Actually Rabbit is a Ghost because he was, and is still for some weird reason banned, when he first landed as Rabbitvoz. His always handle.
But alas rabbit was killed in the battle with the aforementioned Dragon. Did Rabbit tell you he has bagged a Dragon and a Vampire so far? He has indeed. (Brave Rabbit)
Well anyway, Rabbit’s is never more dangerous than when they are dead, and the rest is history. Except for the somewhat annoying fact that Rabbit is still a Ghost.
All Rabbit’s words have been re-instated from whence they were plucked in such untimely yet somehow perfect fashion. This amounts to a full vindication to far stronger words than those around here which are much more restrained. Yet Why has the Rabbit not been re-born as Rabbitvoz? It is a mystery.
Never mind Rabbit is still hopping around loose the way Rabbits do. Rabbits are hard to keep anyplace long, especially - out.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 9, 2005 at 6:00 PM Liz,
Knowing Jack/Michael/Sybil/Rumplestiltskin,I’d be willing to bet he became so full of himself that he imploded,became a singularity,and is now sucking up a nebula that drifted over his event horizon.
Isn’t it funny how merry tricksters disappear when tranparency is asked for.
I was travelling when the new security I.D. was put onto the ITT site.I would love to know what happened to cause that.Surely SOMETHING happened July 12th or 13th?
Posted by wwoods on Sep 9, 2005 at 6:43 PM Oh. My. Gawd. If some of you would actually wake your sorry asses up, you would realize that there was plenty screwed up ALL OVER. Sure, the Feds could’ve/should’ve responded sooner.
But - and it’s NOT a “Republican talking point” - the local government is ALWAYS THE FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE in these situations. And that idiot Nagin and his “let’s just pray” counterpart Blanco didn’t enact the plans in place. It really is that simple.
I can’t believe the stupid, ridiculous crap about the school buses being “designed for children.” Not only is that patently FALSE, but you know what? In an emergency, methinks most people would skateboard their way out if that’s all they had available.
At the end of the day, the awful reality and truth is that events like this are termed “disasters” for a reason. People die, capiche? Plus, people seem to forget that NOLA wasn’t the only place hit. Shit, NOLA was left a shining kingdom of mudslides and beads compared to places like Biloxi which were virtually removed from the map.
Y’all know Biloxi, right? The place that along with casinos has huge military installations? Pray tell (as Blanco would have it) how/where are we supposed to get all these resources pronto when the military/guard facilities themselves were victims of the flooding?
Silly me… I guess that must be more “Republican talking points”....
Posted by g-love on Sep 9, 2005 at 6:58 PM Please share with Rabbit, children.
Is it a rare specimen, peculiar in some special way?
Rabbit nose wiggles expectantly.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 9, 2005 at 7:32 PM g-love, Condi was saying just keep praying while the shopping bills she was a payin’
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 9, 2005 at 7:34 PM G,
I’m with you on the skateboard thread. I could care less what certification my driver has. If he isn’t too hammered and can get us out of town, then let’s go.
It was pretty much a melt-down at the local level, but it took most of us about a day to figure that out. Now, if it had beed a suspected terrorist attack that had say… taken out a major levee or dam, nobody would be making excuses for the fed’s inability to cope with any local failures.
If we could get a nice independent investigation, it would be very interesting to see where the failures ocurred. The White House is so obsessed with controlling the message that they are resisting the idea in favor of the administration investigating itself and a congressional investigation by a Republican congress. That just smells bad. Why even go through this exercise? Save our money please.
Sorry, but these guys have shown that the truth and common sense are much less important than loyalty to the administration and the party.
Posted by GrayArea on Sep 9, 2005 at 7:57 PM Rabbit does not want such a worthless specimen as this one. It is sickly, runty seeming, and not likely to stand up to much of a journey. When you get it back to the farm , what do you do with it. You can’t teach it anything, won’t be domesticated and makes such a mess. Can’t do anything useful and nothing even wants to eat it so much it would go much out of it’s way for a piece.
Nope, Rabbit, munches, goes over to the stream to drink and watch the fish. Let it go.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 9, 2005 at 11:53 PM This is not within Grayarea either, let ‘em grow bigger with somebody else’s worms thinks Rabbit.
Odd spelling of your Name there, Rabbit has only seen it twice before. Rabbits and another extra special case. Both times slips under the Radar. What is your Grey secret, if it’s not too dark?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 10, 2005 at 2:32 AM Rabbit quiz:
Who said this:“Why should we hear about body bags and deaths? It’s not relevant. So why should I waste my beautiful mind on something like that?”
A) Paris Hilton?
B) Barbara Bush?
C) Some other inhumane, stupid bitch, who’s good for nothing but mounting, one way or the other.The other way? On a nice piece of Oak or Jarrah burl, cut off at about the neck with the horns pointing upwards, of course, natural like.
Rabbit wants a third share in any fish caught with his Rabbit bad Joke.
Hint? did someone ask Rabbit for a hint? The same one who said this more recently.“What I’m hearing, which is sort of scary, is they all want to stay in Texas.
And so many of the people in the arena here, you know, were underprivileged anyway, so this—this (chuckling slightly) is working very well for them.”Rabbit swears he, Rabbit made it up, just then.,
After reading a few “disinformation” pieces in Rense, Rabbit noted the similarities too between the Old goat and it’s Little Bush once again.
(Hunters and collectors must always say “That was Rabbit’s Joke” if Rabbit’s joke is to be found worthy of being used again by fine people. Cheap at twice the price. Rabbit hopes)
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 10, 2005 at 3:44 AM Liberal plan for any situation involving President Bush: Ready, Fire, Aim!
Jabbar Gibson, 20, took a school bus in New Orleans, rounded up a bunch of people, including children and infants, and drove to the Astrodome in Houston. And he did it without special training, but then, this was an emergency. Gibson showed a lot more initiative and leadership than the Louisiana politicians who ignored their own emergency plans and left hundreds of school buses in school district parking lots, where they all flooded when the water rose. Mr. Gibson undoubtedly has a bright future in Republican politics.
As soon as the hurricane hit, Liberals sensed an opportunity and began whining and complaining, as is their wont. A chief complaint was that Bush wasn’t doing enough, avoiding the fact that Governor Blanco and Mayor Nagin did nothing until President Bush called them and strongly recommended that emergency procedures be implemented. President Bush’s call was on Saturday, August 27, and Mayor Nagin finally called for an evacuation on the morning of the 28th, 24 hours before landfall and 48 hours later than the NO emergency plan demanded. Those lost 48 hours were critical. The first day of the alert allows people to secure their homes and businesses, and allows the city and state governments to mobilize buses and other transportation, food and water, and emergency supplies; then, if the situation warrants, the actual evacuation takes place on the second and third day. But the emergency was not called on time and none of this preliminary work took place, and that led directly to the chaotic situation in the Superdome and throughout the city. And it was directly due to President Bush’s urging that the evacuation was called at all; 80% of the people of New Orleans got out on time, but only barely.
Not only did President Bush persuade the Louisiana politicians to do their jobs, he called out the Coast Guard and Navy, which moved in quickly behind the storm. The USS Bataan was on station off New Orleans on Tuesday, August 30, the day the levees broke, and was able to run a reconnaissance by helicopter on Tuesday before dark. Then on Wednesday, the Bataan’s helicopters began moving trapped people from flooded areas and bringing in relief supplies in a 24/7 operation. By Sunday, September 4, the Bataan’s helicopters had rescued 1613 people, delivered over fifty tons of food and emergency supplies, and delivered 8000 gallons of fresh drinking water. In addition, the Bataan had medical parties working in New Orleans and Biloxi, and work crews in Biloxi.
After all this, on September 5, five full days after the USS Bataan began full operations in the New Orleans area, Paul Krugman, one of the dimmest of the lying Liberal dim bulbs, accused federal officials of “lethal ineptitude”, and cited the USS Bataan as an example.
Liberals criticized President Bush for cutting the funding for the New Orleans levees, while ignoring some salient points:
·Funding for Corps of Engineer projects in Louisiana is $1.9 billion a year, which is greater (by $500 million) than for any other state.
·Funding under President Bush for five years was greater than funding for the last five years of the Clinton administration.
·Much of the USACE funding in Louisiana went to pork barrel projects for Louisiana politicians, including $748 million for a new lock on a canal with declining usage.
·Since Katrina was a Cat 4 hurricane, and the New Orleans levees are built to cat 3 specifications, the levees were going to overflow no matter what, and would probably breach, which they did. One levee breached after being hit by a loose barge. Both breaches occurred in areas that had been upgraded.
Posted by scorp on Sep 10, 2005 at 4:14 AM (cont)
Liberals have shot without aiming so often that everyone recognizes how erratic and unfocused they are. Lying Liberals are so determined to undermine President Bush’s credibility that they say anything that sounds good at the moment, but they ignore their own tattered honesty and integrity. Most Americans recognize that Liberals were lying when they attempted to steal the 2000 election, and they have been lying ever since. They lie when they accuse President Bush of lying and when they say he is stupid. They lie when they accuse him of being racist. They are lying now about Bush’s role in Katrina.
Most Americans are convinced that Liberals are rude, crude, uncouth, and ugly, BESIDES being vile and repulsive. And the Liberals did it to themselves. And they keep losing elections by worse margins.
Posted by scorp on Sep 10, 2005 at 4:15 AM g-love Rabbit thinks you are looking well. Rabbit has taken the liberty of updating himself before putting his foot in his mouth, in his eagerness to bag himsdelf a new critter.
Rememebered how outraged you were on the DU business. Rabbit was not surprised, had heard of it before, does this mean this was news to G then? If so interesting, and good.
Bush is not Rascist, he’ll screw a Blackfeller over as easy as a white, man or woman.
Rabbit has a plan for any situation involving President Bush: Ready, Fire, Aim!
It might give the game away about our liberal leanings though comrades.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 10, 2005 at 5:56 AM Since Jabbar Gibson, 20, took a school bus in New Orleans, rounded up a bunch of people, including children and infants, and drove to the Astrodome in Houston. And he did it without special training, but then, this was an emergency.
——Where does one begin.This is all true scorp.
Mr. Gibson undoubtedly has a bright future in Republican politics.
——-This is open to debate. His name sounded distinctly un-republican to Rabbit.
This is a bold and yet somehow, subtle plan.
Perhaps the Repugs actualy trained the driver in all these extraordinary skills not normally found amoung people of Jabbars ancestry and social caste.“And he did it without special training,”
——-Dam, he saw that one coming. and countered Rabbit at the gate.
In Oz we have Sheep dogs who can round up huge mobs of sheep, but of course they do need special training.
Gibson showed a lot more initiative and leadership than the Louisiana politicians
———or Bush or any of the government or administaration from top to bottom, but that was what you meant wasn’t it Scorp?
who ignored their own emergency plans and left hundreds of school buses in school district parking lots,
—-Under guard, from any attempt ot use or distribute anything by Fema and Nat Guard
and locked them outwhere they all flooded when the water rose.
——-deh should a built deyself’s a bigol Ark if they was so worried about gettin flooded and all. Besides, everyone knows that blacks can dig better than whites because their skin is the same colour as dirt see? So wusn’t they fixing the dams, I mean those levis theyselfs.
they got too many levis anyway, they only need one pair of levees they only wash once a montha nway and they runaround in the nude anytime and show their breasts ans swear.
Rabbit is starting to understand you better see scorp.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 10, 2005 at 7:07 AM Scorp what did you think of the Cuban president as primary responsible, evacuated 1.5 million of his people, with less warning, together with their familes, pets and fridges stoves etc. Evacuatted to prepared shelters stafed by doctors, nurses, medicine and food etc. Army was used to secure the area from looters. 20, 000 homes were blown away, full category 5 hurricane with 160 mph winds.
Guess how many died, during the Hurricane? None.
How many died in the aftermath and cleanup? None.
Their essential ideals are being safeguarded by Fidel Castro, as this is the job the Cubans elected him to do, in their own Cuban way, which you distrust, because it has no coca-cola stickers on it. They love their courageous and yes flawed, but overall a worthy leader for any land.
Rabbit would like to compare Bushler and Fidel Castro.
To which of these leaders would you entrust your safety and the well being of your family?
Either as a president of the country, a school headmaster, or a baby sitter.?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 10, 2005 at 7:24 AM I love the neo-cons bush stole the election in 2000 and lied about it.Who is this goof ball scorp. No matter how bad bush screws up the the neo-con’s will defend him. I guess bush had to shit can his buddy brown from fema after he said he was doing a good job. Will bush admit he made a mistake? Will the neo-con’s admit bush make a mistake? I think not. I loved channey’s interview on the news when the guy says fuck you mr. channey then channey smiles becuase that was his catch frase in the senate.
Posted by brian28 on Sep 10, 2005 at 3:23 PM It’s a troubling position for Bush, already suffering the lowest approval ratings of his presidency.
The mistakes have come one upon the other.
Even as Katrina was bearing down on the Gulf Coast that Sunday night and early Monday, Aug. 28-29, and the National Hurricane Center was warning of growing danger, the White House didn’t alter the president’s plans to fly from his Texas ranch to the West to promote a new Medicare prescription drug benefit.
By the time Bush landed in Arizona that Monday, the storm was unleashing its fury on Louisiana and Mississippi. The president inserted into his speech only a brief promise of prayers and federal help.
He continued his schedule in California, and he didn’t decide until the next day that he should return to Washington. But it took him another day to get there, as he flew back to Texas to spend another night at his home before leaving for the White House.
Once the president was in Washington, the criticism only intensified.
While a drowned New Orleans descended into lawless misery, Bush delivered remarks from the Rose Garden that were seen as flat and corporate.
In a television interview, Bush said — mistakenly — that nobody anticipated the breach of the levees in a serious storm.Even Monday’s trip to the region was a redo, hurriedly arranged by the White House over the weekend after lukewarm response to Bush’s first in-person visit to the Gulf Coast last Friday.
Bush had raised eyebrows on his first trip by, among other things, picking Sen. Trent Lott, R-Miss. — instead of the thousands of mostly poor and black storm victims — as an example of loss. “Out of the rubbles of Trent Lott’s house — he’s lost his entire house — there’s going to be a fantastic house. And I’m looking forward to sitting on the porch,” Bush said with a laugh from an airplane hangar in Mobile, Ala.
In the same remarks, Bush gave FEMA chief Brown — the face for many of the inadequate federal response — a hearty endorsement. “Brownie, you’re doing a heck of a job,” Bush said.
Later in Biloxi, Miss., Bush tried to comfort two stunned women wandering their neighborhood clutching Hefty bags, looking in vain for something to salvage from the rubble of their home. He kept insisting they could find help at a Salvation Army center down the street, even after another bystander had informed him it had been destroyed.
And at his last stop that day, at the airport outside of New Orleans, Bush lauded the increasingly desperate city as a great town because he used go there and “enjoy myself — occasionally too much.”
Unlike his galvanizing appearance in the rubble of the World Trade Center just days after the 2001 attacks, Bush has stayed far from the epicenter of New Orleans’ suffering. His only foray into the city was to its edges to watch crews plugging one of the breached levees on Friday.
On Monday, he skipped the hardest-hit coastal areas entirely, choosing instead to visit Baton Rouge, the state capital about 80 miles northwest of New Orleans, which sustained no damage. He also went to Poplarville, Miss., to walk the streets of a middle-class neighborhood that seemed to suffer little more than snapped trees, a couple off-kilter carport roofs and a downed power line or two.
White House spokeswoman Dana Perino said the president avoided New Orleans to stay out of the way of search-and-rescue operations.
“It’s going to be almost impossible to overcome the perception about the president that he didn’t show compassion and didn’t get control of the policy failures,” American University political scientist James Thurber said. “The vivid images that are coming across the television are really destroying his image as a leader.”
White House counselor Dan Bartlett said the president and his aides are unconcerned for now about the unrelenting criticism.
All that voted for bush is going to have to live with your mistake.
Posted by brian28 on Sep 10, 2005 at 4:12 PM It’s about race, as a part of, it’s about working poor, disabled poor and elderly poor. New Orleans as most urban centers is largly black as percentage as well as those centers being largly poor.
I’m from the Detroit area, white suburbia. The history of rascism in this area has been well documented. This area basically invented the term “white flight” as those with money (whites) left a thriving Detroit for the great unknown of the suburbs in waves (several migration out of Detroit).
Most know of the 1967 Detroit riot, but Detroit also had a huge riot in 1943. There was deep animosity of the purposeful ghettoization of Detroit neighborhoods. Even today there are remants of the wall/fencing around the only areas blacks were allowed to be crowded into to live.
The problem with white flight is that it takes the wealth out of the city to the suburbs. The tax base disappears in such a rapid fashion that it becomes hard to maintain simple services to those that remain. And the remaining now majority (black) had really no choice in two ways. One, many new suburbs played the same old game of refusing to sell/rent to minorities and two, even if a suburb opened up the financial means of the working poor blacks was not there.
This still goes on today. A realitor friend has told me of many times he runs into homeowners who refuse to sell to blacks. We still find suburban apartment complexes that do the same. Although illegal, it can be very difficult to prove.
White flight results in bright shiny new infrastructure, new schools and a new community as a whole. Then I listen to these established new communities complain about Detroit schools and don’t understand that their migration was from an old infrastructure, old schools. It takes money to revamp an inner city, but there is no money to be found except in the suburbs not interested in giving up their money for a city they no longer live in.
Whites (such as me) can never fully understand the hate FELT by blacks from whites in such a long historical timeframe that STILL exists today. I certainly do my best to empathize with blacks, but no way can I understand.
Just three weeks ago, I pull into a gas station and while in line to pay, the cashier is relating an incident that had just happened minutes before I arrive. Some woman had reached into another car and stolen a cell phone. The white guy in front of me (completing his transaction) interrupts the story and asks “Was she black?” The answer a quick “no” and the cashier finishes the story.
The questioner leaves, I pay quickly, leave and catch up to him and ask him “Why did you ask if she was black?” Caught him, because he drops his head, mumbles and walks away. He knew, I knew it, he was a rascist. And to top it off he gets into his truck with the Bush/Cheney bumper sticker. This is a working class town, suburb of Detriot.
I can’t begin to count the number of times I hear the “blacks are lazy” routine or “stupid nigger” crap from co-workers even today in my job in an integrated work environment. And almost without a fault, the ones that use that terminology are actually the ones I would rate as the laziest and stupidest where I work. They as prejudiced whites can’t seem to get it out of their head that they themselves are the problem, not who they think are the problem, blacks.
In the Detroit suburbs we still get cross burning or more common hate literature in the mail or directly on someones house as graffiti.
The inner cities of America need our full support in rebuilding efforts to rival what will happen in New Orleans, what we did for Japan and Germany, and what we are doing in Iraq. We need to “Marshall Plan” many of our largest cities. Why? Because of the long and ongoing prejudice that resulted in the decay of these cities.
Posted by Jon B on Sep 10, 2005 at 9:03 PM In my last post, I wish I could have brought home the point of how many of the white rascist are Bush supporters. Not all Republicans are rascists by any means, but many of those non-rascists refuse to acknowledge that their party has become the home of rascists.
It certainly could be argued that Bush who has won his two presidential elections with slim margins in popular vote and electorial college vote, might not be president without rascist support.
It’s the dirty secret of the party. They have nearly acknowledged such as they have began a public effort to bring more African-Americans into the party. But then New Orleans came along, and that effort hit a wall.
Don’t think that blacks (and this Euro-American white working class guy) haven’t noticed Bush’s concern for rich, elite Republican Trent Lott’s house (of several) before anyone else’s. He certainly didn’t promise a future porch sit-down with anyone else.
But I don’t perceive any distaste with that from Republicans or Republican hierarchy. I have to think Bush was playing to a portion of his base. A base he has (wink, wink) joked about, “the haves and have mores.”
Bush continues to polarize because he knows this is the way his party wins. Why? Because the poor and working class poor (where the black population has its highest percentage) vote in the smallest percentages. And of course the haves and have mores are where his campaign money comes from.
And here is where my disappointment with the Democratic Party comes in. A portion of the political elite have decided to compete with the Republican political elite for those haves and have mores, thus disdaining that population of voters who don’t vote in large percentages. Is it any wonder that blacks and whites from the poor and working poor have felt let down by the Democratic Party. Over the last decade or so, these voters care even less about elections because they don’t have choices that they can relate to. Rich Kerry or rich Bush, what’s the difference to the working poor. Notalotta.
That portion of the Democrats can be named. It is mainly in the Democratic Leadership Council (DLC) who have issues and policies many times not much different from Republicans. Oh, they may not be “as bad as” the Republicans at this point, but if their trend continues, it won’t be long before I’ll probably consider them as one and the same pursuing policies that have rascist overtones, if they somehow out-Republican the Republicans.
And it all comes down to money needed to win elections. The haves and have mores are now so dominant in the total wealth in America, that the rest of us can’t begin to raise the kind of dollars to compete with them. And even if we could, the country has become so polarized (by social issues) that those dollars just get divided up into the two parties.
Further the working class more and more consider campaign contributions as a waste of money, because politicians do little to nothing to alleviate our economic concerns, like heathcare costs, medicaid, medicare, social security, living wage, etc. A $50 contribution is needed money for the working class, and handing it to politicians who only pay attention to them at election time is thought of as a bad decision.
The working class sees the election process as nothing but corrupt (polling shows this) and the facts are, it is. At election time rich, elite whitey forks over big money to rich, elite, whitey politician and then come time to write policy, rich, elite, whitey gets most of the benefits.
Our election process has become a huge masterbation of money that benefits mostly the rich. If we could take that vast amount of election cash and instead apply it directly to inner cities, we could go a long way to address class and race issues.
Race is a subgroup of class in this country. At some point though as the rich continue to get richer, class is going to explode as an issue.
Posted by Jon B on Sep 10, 2005 at 10:23 PM Scorp
is
Karl Rove
thinks
Rabbit, since you ask Brian.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 11, 2005 at 12:49 AM Jon B as always a very shiny mind. If only all had the clarity and vision.
Rabbit would like to take what you have said and add the following.
Since the dis-enfranchised “have nots”, in American society (as all societies) actually represent by far the majority, it would seem so easy for them to mobilise their masses and displace the controlling elite.
They do not. It is not merely because many of the poorest don’t vote. Many of the working class poor don’t vote.
...........
Rabbit is the working poor, he has a small factory and barely manages to pay bills and feed his family. In Oz we have compulsory voting. Rabbit and others are so pissed off we still eften defy the Must vote.
Rabbit says if you tell me I must choose between being hit with a spade or just a big stick,
————then you choose buster.
BECAUSE YOU NEED TO KNOW WHICH WILL PROTECT YOU. Prepare to die scum!
...............
The HAVES with their virtual free reign to do what they will with public perception, are only able to keep their power by ensuring that the majority of the people, who clearly , and they know this,
.................HATE THEM.
They try to tell each other this is because the majority are jealous of them, that if they had as much as themselves they would be just the same.
BULSHIT.
Rabbit could use wealth and remain Rabbit. Rabbit could never be comfortable having more than most everybody though. Rabbit is not bigger than any other Rabbit, why does he need more than ten times any other Rabbit. Ten is OK if Rabbit is very fat and greedy. One Hundred times more than the average while some Rabbits are strving, would make Rabbit an accomplice to starving others. Because there is never excess until everyone has enough.The Haves never admit the truth, even to themselves, that nobody envys them more than we just hate them for being so greedy and heartless that they will take thousands times more than everybody and not just let others die, but even make them die to get so much for themselves.
——-So why don’t the majority use their yet to be revoked power at the ballot-box?
Simply because they are not able to agree on doing anything together with various other assorted groups within their number who they have been convinced are their enemy..
...Through clever wording and blatant exploitation of the lowest common denominators the ‘HAVES, have convinced most people that some group or groups are the real obstacle to their own happiness.
...Race is the first and most obvious that springs to mind. That is too easy because their is a tribal remnant to human behaviour which is easily exploited. Especially by those in the know. Want to know why Bushler is not a Racist? and most here have to their credit noticed this? There is actually a much more fundamental reason (don’t ask), but simply because he knows that people are not different racially, he uses this fault line in others while recognising it’s artifial nature. To him there are but two races of Human, The HAVES and the HAVE NOTS.Other fault lines can effectively splinter opposition but in Australia too the Race card has been played much more subtly and well by a vastly more sophisticated contolling elite.
—-Don’t look now but our lot look to be the ultimate NWO government. They are so smooth, its spooky.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 11, 2005 at 1:57 AM What’s happening with the Repugnikans/Freepers/Christo-fascists/Fill-In-Blanks is that, in the style and manner and way of Rome, our country is ending, it’s dying; faster than I thought possible. It is gasping for breath NOW. Unless we all look into this abyss with eyes open, realize it needs resuscitation NOW, we WILL open our eyes to f-word government in the not-too-distant future. Already the odor is strong, wafting from the south—unless that is rotting flesh from NOLA; could be, come to think of it—next comes the disgusting sight of its ugly head, rearing. Funny how that works.
I look around, already I don’t recognize the place, and I KNOW it will get worse.
This disaster (bad star) IS REALLY a disaster, and unless we want to jackboot it into the future, we had ALL better get out there, every human of age, and get REALLY active to save, well, it all. You know, like we’re doing CPR on an unconscious body, hoping it’s not going to become a corpse.
Disaster relief for me: ITT, the check’s in the mail. See above. See home page. See the light.
Posted by lbyland on Sep 11, 2005 at 11:12 AM Ibyland—
What you want can be done, if we act fairly quickly. Working in the states, away from corportism’s zone of national govt control, there are 17 states in which the people have the CAI (constitutional amendment initiative). One of the immense powers available to the CAI is the reduction of the state legislatures from corrupt political-party-controlled bicamerals to nonpartisan unicamerals, on the successful 1934 Nebraska model. With the people forcing nonpartisan unicamerals in about 4-6 states, political sophistication of the civil society will advance from its present stone-stupid to Reform-Era-competent. Along the way, helping to increase the level of political sophistication, we have many other courses of citizen action that corporatism’s govt will be unable to stop. All we need now is about a hundred million Americans who think like you and I.
Posted by Stephen Neitzke on Sep 11, 2005 at 12:35 PM Your war of independance was fought when 4% of the population became angry enough to risk their lives.
Maybe it is not how many will support change, but how much they want to change. Enough to die?
..
4%
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 11, 2005 at 12:43 PM GhostRabbit & Ibyland—
My “hundred million” was hyperbole. All we need for openers is the number of citizens in any one CAI state who are required to formulate and file the CAI petition to reduce bicameral to nonpartisan unicamreral. That’s about FOUR. As the CAI’s civics lesson proceeds through the petition process in just that one state, growth in numbers of like-thinkers across the country will, I think, be astronomical. Point is, civil society has the power to change this mess around, but its political sophistication is so stone-stupid that hardly anyone understands. If you’re a like-thinker, see the index page of my newly established “TRG Polity—nonpartisan online community for direct democracy and True Republican Governance” at trg-polity.org.
Posted by Stephen Neitzke on Sep 11, 2005 at 1:19 PM Stephen N.
I quickly checked out trg-polity.org and I like what I see. I’ve long tinkered in my mind about direct democracy and have wondered what steps need to be taken to get there. I’ve always thought that the powers that be would certainly go down fighting to stop it or control it.
I’ve thought in terms of beginning at local levels experimenting with internet voting that allows all citizens to have a direct vote on community issues. With success, town councils and mayors become less powerful and instead become those that must carry out the wishes of the community. At any rate, I’ll study more in depth in the coming weeks the site.
Are you aware of what CAI might have in Michigan? We do have ballot propositions, but those are very cumbersome. It takes a high percent of signatures and if a proposal does get on the ballot, then here comes the big money to drown the issue through 30 second TV spots.
I’ve always had this anti-authoritarian viewpoint, these days they call me an anarchist, which has that violent sound to the word. Every time I heard New Orleans described as anarchy, I cringed because that’s not my definition of anarchy. On the other hand when I heard the word, I thought “So what. The elitist government let them down.”
It didn’t bother me one bit seeing people loot food, water, diapers, etc. That was survival. I didn’t much care about the TVs, jewelery, etc. either. That was a little of just plain long term pent up anger. Sure, there were those that were just plain criminals, all societies have them. Criminals exist in deep red areas in the US as much as blue. But then the total amount of looting of non-essential items never came close in dollars that corporate elites loot from Americans on a regular basis. All the looting in NO didn’t equal a Ken Lay or Bernie Ebbers. Do I approve of that type of looting of non-essentials in NO, not really. But in the big picture it didn’t bother me nearly as much as elite thievery.
Anyway, what I want is a true people’s power, a direct democracy approach. And that includes corporate organizations. I have come to the conclusion that corporations are almost an exact replica of Soviet style communism, complete with a premier (CEO), a poliburo (board of directors, upper executives), a party of people with no power (the vast majority of stockholders), and a ruled mass (the average workers).
Posted by Jon B on Sep 11, 2005 at 7:08 PM Jon B—
Thanks for taking a look at “TRG Polity” and for the thoughtful respone. Please be patient with the site. It is still very much under construction. In the meantime, you can find many of my essays on my documents site for the DDL at ddleague-usa.net. I’ve been at this constitutional renewal project, with the help of many small “study groups”, for over a decade. Yes, Michigan is a CAI state. Michigan citizens also have the statute initiative, statute referendum (veto of leguislature-made law), and the recall. It is not surprising that you did not know. Most I&R state govts keep their citizens as ignorant as possible of the rights and powers that can, if fully independent of unconstitutional govt interference, pass law that is offensive to money-power. As you have noticed, the I&R state govts also make it as difficult as possible for such offensive citizen law to even be proposed. No, money-power does not effectively control the outcome of referendums on citizen-proposed law with big-money campaigns for or against. That is just another money-power sophistry intended to confuse the people and to keep them down. See Elisabeth R. Gerber’s 1999 book, “The Populist Paradox”. Many of the most common anti-DD sophistries are debunked by Dennis Polhill in his 1996 paper, “Are Coloradans Fit To Make Their Own Laws?”. You can read his paper at http://i2i.org/articles/PoliticsandGovernment/8-96.pdf. In part, Polhill says, “Examination of fourteen commonly heard allegations against the initiative process finds none of them very persuasive. Special interests do not thrive on the initiative; they find the legislature far easier to manage. Money-power likewise gets its way more readily under the Capitol dome, not at the ballot box. Voters are not incompetent to decide complex issues, as quantitative research has proved. Nor are ballot measures notably less well drafted than legislative bills. Constitutional invalidation of successful initiatives is not frequent, but very rare. The number of initiatives on today’s ballot is not unprecedentedly large. ... And voters themselves do not seem to dislike a longer ballot; turnout statistics suggest the opposite. The initiative does not benefit merely the political right or left; partisans from both sides have used it over the years. Bad ideas do not often muster the petition support to make the ballot, and they win at the polls even less often. ... Finally, the initiative process does not imply a tyranny of the majority; the US Constitution prevents that. Nor does the initiative threaten to make the legislature unnecessary, rather it supports that institution by enlisting the people to counter-balance legislative overreach and to compensate for legislative weaknesses. The long and the short of it is that we have the power to end the massively corrupt, dual-party, three-branch, Bush-led despotism that has so deeply endangered our existence. We just don’t have a lot of time to waste. We have to get this started before the global Islamic insurgency figures out—with help from the display of massive Homeland Security incompetence in Katrina’s NOLA strike—how to destroy us in one fell swoop. Good luck to us all.
Posted by Stephen Neitzke on Sep 11, 2005 at 9:39 PM Stephen, (Rabbit spells with ph too), Rabbit shall go to your site soon and look, likes Jon B thinking so will do.
Rabbit has a plan for direct democracy, in any country but shall see where you are at before saying it. Expect Rabbit to visit directly from there is appropriate.
Rabbit is working on trying to reduce all the clutter which is getting in the way of real communication between all people. Reducing things to their simplest components which still work.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 12, 2005 at 3:18 AM Jon just a note on the looting of apparent luxury items. Some reports were that people were selling these to buy essentials. Rabbit thinks this probably explains most of it. Who wants a TV with no electricity anyway.
“a true people’s power, a direct democracy approach. And that includes corporate organizations.”
.....^^......Rabbit does not agree corporate should necessarily get any say in government.
If they are a corporation worth having, they will automicically get support from the people who gain from the corporation’s activities.
In a democracy like that we are trying to imagine.
If the corporation has a separate voice, it can seek it’s own ends without giving consideration maybe to those most directly affected by it’s activities. Inevitably you will end up back here.
Corporataions should be allowed to pursue only those goals which do not bring it into conflict with the interests of people.
Therefore they must be treated as no more than an agglomeration of people with similar wants. Not as a person in it’s own right.
Rabbit knows this is anti business law. So who says the law is right?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 12, 2005 at 3:29 AM Rabbit has registered Stephen. Not sure what to say there, or more where.
The first comment which is Rabbit’s main request of all sites, how to simplify, so that the debates which eventuate can be dealt with coherantly under one roof. For example, while it might pay to segregate groups a bit, to allow some form of consensus, what is the point in an internet debate where the format is unique for many reasons already and consensus is noit really what is being sought.Rabbit’s main contention that the way forward is by finding the most simple and universal common denominator to all people (All life as it happens), agreeing on what it is and then unravelling the worlds, (OUR) problems in reverse.
Too many rooms, makes for dissipation of resources (people) when all could work more productively in concert and if anything useful comes out of it all can benefit.
All we are doing otherwise is cluttering up the world with more and more splintered interests.
Rabbit principle 1. Keep it simple.
...................^^.............Nothing get’s easier to fix the more complicated you make it.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 12, 2005 at 6:35 AM Eg: Especially while there are only a few souls. Why not keep it so we are all in the same room at once.?
Let people branch away into other rooms as the appropriateness of such action becomes apparent.Not meant to sound like an orgy but, oh well.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 12, 2005 at 6:47 AM Rabbit—
Thanks for registering at TRG Polity. Oz has a farsical direct democracy system that is dictated to by representative govt. I look forward to discussing your views on how to change that around.
There are three reasons that I’ve laid out the TRG Polity board in a systemic issues fashion. First, our Constitution started as an elites short-circuiting of the people’s demands for direct democracy’s citizen lawmaking. For the 200+ years since, the elites have employed many engenious thinkers to create anti-DD sophistries, convoluted polemics, vacuous arguments, out-right lies, and emotions-triggering propaganda. The anti-DD material is woven into the fabric of our political history. It covers every topic that can be raised within our political philosophy of constitutional, rep govt. Its complexity is staggering. No matter what topic pro-DD arguments are made to cover, there are fallacious anti-DD attacks with the added weight of historical significance just sitting there, waiting to be employed.
The only way to defeat those unreasonable attacks by predator elitism is to lay out a minimum number of “catching categories” into which the various attacks can be isolated and refuted, as they are delivered against us now.
My measuring of the anti-DD attacks is helped by dual majors in philosophy and history at the Univ Calif Santa Barbara—back in the stone age—in conjunction with about 40 years of political history study. (I spotted the significance of Swiss governance while a starving student—in the late 1960s—and have lived only in I&R states since.)
The TRG Polity board is laid out with my best guesses as to the minimum number of “catching categories” that will do the job against fallacious anti-DD attacks. The catching categories are four forums in just one board category—“TRG”.
Second, the board’s categories allow for quick and easy definitions of components in the envelope. The quick definitions give newbies the lay of the land. And they give individual advocates the organizing assets they need to effectively debate with anti-DD opponents.
Third, US civil society now has a very low political sophistication. Bush came to office in a burst of unconstitutional and illegal usurpation, engneered and/or allowed by collusions among all three branches of govt. Yet some significant percentage of the people continue to treat the Bush despotism as if it were politics-as-usual. Very unsophisticated.
But we’ve been here, done that. The social justice issues of the late 1800s drove up political sophistication for Reform Era use. Citizens of 26 states rammed DD down the throats of their elitist state constitutions from 1898 to 1918. We’ve lost the sophistication since, but we can bring it back.
Seven of the TRG Polity board’s forums, in two categories, are about righting wrongs and re-building political sophistication—and getting to the 2nd NCC (nat’l constitutional convention). Those seven forums will allow groups of various talents a meeting place for their particular activity.
The KISS system is just flatly inappropriate for our political situation here in the US.
Note, however, that none of the three reasons for a systematic breakout of board categories and forums deprives us of a few central forums in which to do most of our positive-nature discussion.
Posted by Stephen Neitzke on Sep 12, 2005 at 2:02 PM Rabbit—
Additionally, we have only a few souls on the TRG Polity board for now, but there are many tens of millions of Americans who live in I&R states. Those citizens are already accustomed to having DD. As the Bush fascist thuggery, only masquerading as constitutonal governance, continues to flash its incompetence in war, national disasters, and the moral, legal, and financial bankruptcy of the nation, more and more of those DD-acclimated persons will gravitate to sites advocating national-level DD. The layout of the TRG Polity board will allow those already-DD-experienced newbies to quickly understand the site’s direction. Its about teaching from the known to the related unknown.
Posted by Stephen Neitzke on Sep 12, 2005 at 2:19 PM Perhaps since Rabbit is so small and he has so little to say really, he is daunted.
The main reason for the concern is the very real feeling we are running out of time, very fats.
Rabbit has a simple way to throw out the Government in Australia, or any country, at the next election. It is very simple really and can be covered in a single average sized post, but it is qyuite infallible
Of course it’s hard to believe a Rabbit if as humans think that the answer is far too complicated for a Rabbit to understand.
Actauuly the questions and the answer are the main thing all things understand. out of the most simple constant of all earth life, Rabbit can offer people a solution, on behalf of all animals who are not interested in following humans to their various heavens and raptures and armageddons. Most of us would like you not to torch the place on your way out if you must all jump off the planet, to reach God.
If however you wish to stick around and see a new world with the rest of us Land dwellers, there is a simple answer. But you must ask Rabbit for it, because he does not like to impose more than wanted, he is working on telling others. It just happens that Rabbit thought of it while at ITT, on Fathers Day it began then about three days later it was born.
Of course like any such idea it has taken all Rabbit’s life to assemble it from the learnings and ponderings of Rabbit but at last it is ready, and none to soon thinks the Rabbit.
Who wants one, offering only once here today.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 12, 2005 at 2:50 PM Careful, Rabbit, we don’t have time here for ego games in 2nd person, pretend animal. There’s nothing mystical about distinct knowledge. You either have it, or—you don’t you know. Playing ego games with it is bad form. There’s serious work to be done, fast. The global Islamic insurgency and nanotech-wielding predator elitists are in a foot race to destroy the little people of the USA. We’re way past time for tricky little ego games. You have something to say? Say it.
Posted by Stephen Neitzke on Sep 12, 2005 at 3:17 PM Please do not be jumping to conclusions. What a way to start a conversation.
It is not I who have a big shiny shop front.
Have you never heard of Artistic Analogy?
The point is being understood, not following some format.
There is nothing artificial about Rabbit. Like all things our Name, our personality our very presentation says often more than our words.
Rabbit is a vehicle. If you wish to see more clearly, change I or Me out for the number of times you see Rabbit, and compare that to most peoples use of those names.
Do not please tell Rabbit about humility.
Rabbit could make money from his idea but will give it freely. If you don’t want it because Rabbit seems too small and insignificant, or weird looking, fine. Rabbit said he will not say it if you don’t want.
Pearls and Porcine friends, nice Stephen.
If we can enjoy a little fairy tale and at the end realise we have heard a great thing, what is the harm in the teller using his best vehicle for the telling?
So many questions asks Rabbit.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 12, 2005 at 3:36 PM Now give Rabbit an hour and he will have pulled a boat out of the oven, and compiled a brief post which tells it simply, because Rabbit agrees the time is short.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 12, 2005 at 3:38 PM Part one; .......Define your ideals.
Let us begin at the start…................^^..............
.......What is the meaning of life?
————-Rabbit does not know.
He suspects it is to find out the meaning of life...........Rabbit thinks that we can ask the questions which have more relevance here and now, like what would I willingly die or kill for?
———-To die or kill? Yes, these are absolutely irrevocable acts. They can never be undone, they are scary and usually involve a deal of pain of one sort or another, we do not do these things lightly.Oh Rabbit knows most people think Americans go around killing everybody and getting killed in turn, for fun, but Rabbit knows better, Rabbit knows there is only one reason people would do these things.
George Bush has told us and like so many things he tells the exact truth. No No stop throwing stones at Rabbit, please, Rabbit loathes Bushler, and Rabbit knows he tells huge lies. But he tells huge truths too sometimes such that Rabbit sometimes wonders if he is not laughing at the world.
Bushler would say that our ideals are worth fighting for. This is a slogan for the right and probably as much for the left. They are all right but there is one problem.
..............Who can define their ideals?
————People can’t, which is one of the things that animals most fear about humans. All animals at least and probably every little snail or even a yeast maybe, could in its own unique voice tell you its ideals. If you could but speak its language. Rabbit will tell you what ideals are common to all earth creatures and they are man’s as well.
.......An ideal is something we would die for, or kill for. It is something which is, as the name implys unnatainable. It can be sought after and even obtained in a more or lesser degree, but as an ideal it can only be built upon never fully attained.
Here is why. They are none of them given automatically by life and they can all be taken away, espEcially if we do not remember what they are.Ideals====.....^^......LOVE, FOOD, SHELTER, SECURITY, HEALTH, a good future for our children.
more…...
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 12, 2005 at 4:43 PM Now in actual fact, most of the people who are dying in Iraq are dying for ideals, both sides.
Most of the people killing in Iraq are doing so for ideals.
———————Rabbit has already defined ideals for you and if you have failed to realise that these are the main ideals then you must think more, for they are. Why would any creature not have those above mentioned ideals? Is not the essence of the struggle for life and survival contained within those ideals, do you have anything else? Your car, your pension plan, your boat or your dream summer house?You must achieve step one and recognise these are your ideals. Now that you have seen them named, does it not seem obvious to you?
Then why didn’t you know what they were before now?
——————If as would seem reasonable to assume that all living things have these ideals in common, there is no reason to assume somebody who had a different picture of God or Government, would yet have different ideals.
...........Then how can both sides in a war be fighting for their ideals?Obviously this can only happen if one or both are mistaken about what their ideals are.
This actually only happens when people allow their ideals to be dictated to by others, which is ridiculous. Who would pay a church to tell one those few simple things which are the only ideals which exist?
...........Now since the very act of threatening someone elses ideals guarantees they will threaten yours in return, why would anyone strike the first blow?
————-The only way a people could be convinced to strike the first blow against another people is if they felt the other was a threat to their own ideals, as defined above...............How does this idea work to stop wars?
——————It is actually as simple as people being reminded in words not much different from those above, what their ideals are and what this means for their relationship with the netire rest of the planet let alone their own species.—————-When the Slimy government or the greedy parasite religions tell people who know their ideals as well as any Rabbit, that someone is a threat to their ideals, it gets easy. .. The people ask why? This is not natural, so why do my neighbors think that I am in some way a threat to their ideals? The truth is never far away and no lie could stand this test. The religions and governments are all fallible if this simple creed is followed.
———-You all know without Rabbit telling you that if we left the Muslims alone under the above ideals premise, the very act of telling them these things may well bring peace to the world.If you cannot believe this then you are overrestimating the Muslim hate for us and underestimating your own misunderstanding of them.
Part 2 Follows…......^^..........
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 12, 2005 at 4:44 PM Out of the above simple truth, can be found a creed which could indeed unify your species.
It can be understood and applied at every level. Such a creed need only be the basis, out of which you produce a simple document. As simple as possible and containing a breakdown of the reasoning as above. The ‘document’ as we shall call it should be as inclusive as possible of humanity and devoid of any influence from any other entity like businesses or churches and other groups. Any such ‘institutions’ are made up of people and if these people gain by the institution then they will give it adequate representation and this will always ensure no institution can ever operate contrary to public interests with the free hand that most agree has gone too far.
.......This is the next key and comprises part 2: Uniting the common people.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 12, 2005 at 5:20 PM .....Part 2: Uniting the Common People.
Most people actually agree on many things and are all generally dissatisfied with their lots. The problem with using this level of dissatsifaction to topple the powers at elections is the way they have divided society down every fault line. They play divide and concquer, you all know what Rabbit means. The big money makes the noise and any real issues get lied about and and are few and far between anyway.Therefore make the message simple and understandable as above. Base a broad platform with no promises beyond a humane government based on presrving the ideals of their people and by extension those of all people and creatures of the Earth. (Please include the creatures, then your environmental problems will come into perpective too).
Print that message on a simple one page flier, include the following request.
Anybody who is prepared to stand up for the seat of their district whatever you have in your system, on the basis of ensuring the establishment of Rabbits Creed (You can call it Hobbits Creed for all I care). All that will be required of them will be honesty and transparency and follow the creed. In all matters of government. Just be up front and say what everyone knows. It does not tkae brains or wealth or education to be a politician. The best people will be found if the only reward is a good job well done. The new candidates, who must tell all about themselves, good or bad will agree to only accept some agreed upon very moderate scale of pay. This will further cement them as the peoples favorites.
—————All some central group needs to do is co-ordinate the various cadidates, get them registered etc and get the basics out at the last minute. The main thing will be the creed, the peoples voice, the players can wait until as late as, no wasted money on campaigns, the Creed is a single page being copied and re-copied and gaining momentum like the wind.
Nothing can stop it since it is simple it is true and it is the answer.The machine is denied the ground it always takes for granted. It can sing its stupid slogans and lies, but to what avail?
——-The people already know they are one, theyknow that they have been lied to because they can, must clearly see through so many lies so fast, because if it goes against their ‘new-found’ IDEALS, it is WRONG!Best of all how can the ‘machine’ put shit on people who are standing on the basis of being ‘joe average’. As with Rabbit, a crim record could be made to improve one’s credibility actually under such circumstances. Then you say it up front. Then if somebody better stands up, stand aside, for this will be set up to eliminate any personal power. How to keep them honest? Simple, since they were elected only as representatives of the creed, party whatever.(The Ideal Party?) If they stray from the central theme of catering fairly to their electorates ideals, the complaints will soon identify them and the “Party” simply expels them at most and reports the fact. Bye bye broken promises.
...............................................
Rabbit thinks he got it about covered. Got at least a glimmer of the idea yet?If so Rabbit will Take questions, or move to a more approriate forum if wished.
Rabbit is at your service, for an hour more at least now.
.....................^^............
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 12, 2005 at 5:21 PM Can nobody else here but Rabbit see that this is the end of Wars?
They are not natural, they are not absolutes.
War is not an absolute.
It is a choice which can only have one justification, the defence of one’s own ideals, probably exactly as Bushler would phrase it.
——-Does this not appeal to the poets among you to realise that the truth was hidden in such plain sight?
Nobody need be jealous or guilty they didn’t think of it before, humans are only half animal and are thus handicapped at birth, with only Alpha Brain waves mostly, except for babies who have all to boot.Now, Rabbit has told you something shiny. Can you comprehend it and make it work before what happens next?
Rabbit has never seen ‘Vogon’ Spaceships but there is something big and dark and coming our way fast.
...............................^^......................
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 12, 2005 at 5:52 PM I can’t believe the comments on this website. Have all you not been informed of the predawn happenings in New Orleans days before the hurricane hit. The fault lies within the State Govenment not with Pres. Bush..
He tried hourly to get the Govenor and Mayor of New Orleans to declare the state a disaster area before the storm even hit. The evacation procedure started days before, most of the able citizens got out. But for those who could not or wanted to stay, they were not prepared for the magnitude of the severity of Katrina. Now what you have not stated is and needs to be addressed. Why did not the Mayor load all the people on the now flooded school buses , instead of crying that no one would help get his people out. Why were the Fema funds that were alloted for the reconstruction and repaitr if the Levy’s used for get this a new MARINA and GAMBLING BOATS. Do you not see a problem here. The problem is THE MAYOR AND GOVENOR LET THE PEOLPE DOWN. NOT THE PRESIDENT. He over rode the line of procedure and declared the state of emergency so Fema and the Red Cross would send immediate help and GUESS WHAT THE RED CROSS WAS TURNED AWAY.They didn’t want to look like they had a plan or that things were under control. Also what we heard on the news, was that the 500 feet of Levy that was breached by the 9th ward” was in actuality blown up by explosives to allow that area to flood to keep the AFFULANT white ritzy neigborhood from flooding. So who made that choice?? I think that all of the State & City officals needs to be investigated. Instead of placing Blame on someone who has tried to help from the start. Find out what went wrong first. BUT in any diaster there is always a scapegoat. Try Mayor Ragin for not using the funding for repairs in the first place. I hope all who read this have an open mind. And investigate the findings. I pray for all of the flood victims and their families and pray that this will never happen again. But this flood was prophecied on 7-22-05 at Christian Life Center In Humble TX. To read the phophecy go to www.kimclement.com. This WAS GOD’S JUDGEMENT ON NEW ORLEANS…
Posted by pjdelao on Sep 12, 2005 at 6:07 PM Rabbit is not hungry, anybody else, please?
Don’t go anywhere little Dittohead, someone will be along shortly to box you my pretty.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 12, 2005 at 6:10 PM Rabbit—
Some misc remarks before shifting to unavoidable duties that will tie me up until Wednesday, 14 Sept.
I appreciate your vision of the end of wars and of governance by uncomplicated reason. In step-by-step, species-mature governance, we might get there someday. You know, don’t you, that we cannot get there from here? You know, don’t you, that Bush will not give up his power to the one-page Rabbit Creed? His minions will not even bother him with a footnote about it. The ordinary people have been excluded from the governance debates in the halls of money-power since the Business Roundtable came into existence in 1972.
At the other end of the spectrum, sedition, the predators hold the power to kill us until only the servile remain.
Until predator powers are legitimately balanced by the powers of the sovereign people—through sovereign citizen lawmaking that, detail by detail, strips the predators of their corrupt powers to rob and butcher the people for profits—we will gain nothing.
The process, I think, will take decades—after the people gain national-level citizen lawmaking, fully independent of any govt interference.
There is a bright shiny future for species-mature governance out there somewhere. For now, there is only many years of fully informed ditch digging and other gruelling work ahead of us.
The US citizens of Reform Era I, a hundred years ago, pioneered our way. The predator elites took back much of what was won. But we still have a hard core of citizen powers remaining. The predator elites know that core very well. They have been chipping and bombing it away for nine decades. They are getting close to being able to neuter it with the federal bench.
Sorry, Rabbit. We don’t have the time to send those who are willing to die for this nation’s species-mature governance and future on a max-effort operation for Rabbit’s one-page Creed.
Bush has pissed off the wrong tribes. We probably don’t have time to gain sovereign citizen lawmaking before the attacks of those tribes pole-axe our national economy. Picture the world without the US marketplace. Big dark come soon (thank you, Raoul).
Katrina shows us how incompetent our govts—at all levels—truely are. Worse, al Quaeda watches CNN, too. Now they know that US money-power gives a rat shit less about saving the little people. Aha, al Quaeda says, look at this—you cut off the body, the head dies. Bring the suitcase nucs. We know now where to put them.
We’ve come no further than the more-efficient killing machines echoed from the despotic Roman Empire. The wrong tribes are Goth-like willing to rip us apart for their dark-ages religious ideals. Until the sovereign people of the US say “intercedo” with real veto power, we face wrong-tribes retribution. We can’t stop that with a one-page Rabbit’s Creed.
Posted by Stephen Neitzke on Sep 12, 2005 at 7:04 PM “”’’‘But this flood was prophecied on 7-22-05 at Christian Life Center In Humble TX. To read the phophecy go to www.kimclement.com. This WAS GOD’S JUDGEMENT ON NEW ORLEANS…”“”“
Seems a bit silly to read the prophesy after the fact, who cares now.
......“I pray for all of the flood victims and their families and pray that this will never happen again.”
——Why not just read the prophesy and tell us when it’s going to happen again so this time we’ll be ready. Better still tell Bushler, the new Messiah of The Christian Right so he’ll be ready.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 12, 2005 at 7:05 PM This does not require Bushlers or his handlers co-operation, it will ahppen at the ballot box. Admittedly it is vastly easier in Australia, wher it is really intended to be put into effect. Here it is quite concievable, for a number of reasons, another day.
Admittedly in the USA Rabbit fears your end is nigh and sadly there is unlikely to be the will or the time. All such as this would achieve is to force them to drop the final mask and they would before surrendering.
The idea works just the same. It is the answer and if anybody survives or anybody who wants to survive, nust learn these simple ideals, ket them be the only measuring stick for right and wrong and all else follows.
Not everyone will get it first time, matters not plenty are and others, also you will. the details are simple enough and logical enough to be unforgettable. You now have the seed of the ultimate earthly knowledge. We shall see if you do not seem more impressed when next we meet.
Bon Voyage.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 12, 2005 at 7:12 PM To nayone still doubtful of the existence of race as a determinant in how the residents of New Orleans was treated, read this tidbit from the Independent (UK):
A Louisiana police chief has admitted that he ordered his officers to block a bridge over the Mississippi river and force escaping evacuees back into the chaos and danger of New Orleans. Witnesses said the officers fired their guns above the heads of the terrified people to drive them back and “protect” their own suburbs.
Two paramedics who were attending a conference in the city and then stayed to help those affected by the hurricane, said the officers told them they did not want their community “becoming another New Orleans”.
The desperate evacuees were forced to trudge back into the city they had just left. “It was a real eye-opener,” Larry Bradshaw, 49, a paramedic from San Francisco, told The Independent on Sunday. “I believe it was racism. It was callousness, it was cruelty.”
Mr Bradshaw said the police blocked off the road on the Thursday and Friday after Hurricane Katrina struck on Monday 29 August. He and his wife Lorrie Slonsky, also a paramedic, had sheltered with others in the Hotel Monteleone in the French Quarter.
When food and water ran out they were forced to head for the city’s convention centre, but on the way they heard reports of the chaos and violence that was taking place there and inside the Superdome where thousands of people were forced together without running water, toilets, electricity or air conditioning. So Mr Bradshaw spoke with a senior New Orleans police officer who instructed them to cross the Crescent City Connection bridge to Jefferson Parish, where he promised they would find buses waiting to evacuate them.
They were in the middle of a group of up to 800 people - overwhelmingly black - walking across the bridge when they heard shots and saw people running. “We had been hearing shooting for days. What was different about this was that it was close by,” he said.
Making their way towards the crest of the bridge they saw a chain of armed police officers blocking the route. When they asked about the buses they were told their was no such arrangement and that the route was being blocked to avoid their parish becoming “another New Orleans”. They identified the police as officers from the city of Gretna.
The following day Mr Bradshaw said they tried again to cross and directly witnessed police shooting over the heads of a middle-aged white couple who were also turned back. Eventually, late on Friday evening, the couple succeeded in crossing the bridge with the intervention of a contact in the local fire department.
Arthur Lawson, chief of the Gretna police department, said he had not yet questioned his officers as to whether they fired their guns.
He confirmed that his officers, along with those from Jefferson Parish and the Crescent City Connection police force, sealed the bridge and refused to let people pass. This was despite the fact that local media were informing people that the bridge was one of the few safe evacuation routes from the city.
Gretna is a predominantly white suburban town of around 18,000 inhabitants. In the aftermath of Katrina, three quarters of the inhabitants still had electricity and running water. But, Chief Lawson told UPI news agency: “There was no food, water or shelter in Gretna City. We did not have the wherewithal to deal with these people. If we had opened the bridge our city would have looked like New Orleans does now - looted, burned and pillaged.”
Mr Bradshaw and his wife were evacuated to Texas and have since returned to California. They condemned the authorities, adding: “This official treatment was in sharp contrast to the warm, heartfelt reception given to us by ordinary Texans.
“Throughout, the official relief effort was callous, inept and racist… Lives were lost that did not need to be lost.”By Andrew Buncombe
Posted by Liberal on Sep 12, 2005 at 7:33 PM Liberal, another account.
Gardiner Harris
New York Times
Sept. 10, 2005 12:00 AM
Police agencies to the south of New Orleans were so fearful of the crowds attempting to leave the city after Hurricane Katrina that they sealed a crucial bridge over the Mississippi River and turned back hundreds of desperate evacuees, according to two paramedics who were in the crowd.The paramedics and two other witnesses said officers sometimes shot guns over the heads of fleeing people, who, instead of complying immediately with orders to leave the bridge, pleaded to be let through, according to the paramedics and two other witnesses. The witnesses said that they had been told by New Orleans police to cross this same bridge because buses were waiting for them there.
Instead, a suburban police officer angrily ordered about 200 people to abandon an encampment between the highways near the bridge. The officer then confiscated their food and water, the four witnesses said. The incidents took place in the first days after the storm last week, they said.The police kept saying, ‘We don’t want another Superdome,’ and ‘This isn’t New Orleans,’ ” said Larry Bradshaw, a San Francisco paramedic who was among those fleeing.
Arthur Lawson, chief of the Gretna, La., Police Department, confirmed that his officers, along with those from the Jefferson Parish Sheriff’s Office and the Crescent City Connection Police, sealed the bridge.“There was no place for them to come on our side,” Lawson said. He said that he had been asked by reporters about officers threatening evacuees with guns or shooting over their heads, but he said that he had not yet asked his officers about that.
“As soon as things calm down, we will do an inquiry,” he said. The lawlessness that erupted in New Orleans soon after the hurricane terrified officials throughout Louisiana, and a week later, law enforcement officers rarely entered the city without weaponry.
Bradshaw and his partner, Lorrie Beth Slonsky, wrote an account about their experiences that has been widely e-mailed and was first printed in the Socialist Worker.
Cathey Golden, a 51-year-old from Boston, and her 13-year-old son, Ramon Golden, on Friday confirmed the account.
Nearly 200 guests at the Hotel Monteleone gathered to make their way to the Convention Center together, the four said. But on the way, they heard that the Convention Center had become a dangerous pit from which no one was being evacuated. So they stopped in front of a police command post near Harrah’s casino on Canal Street.
A New Orleans police commander whom none of the four could identify told the crowd that they could not stay there and later told them that buses were being brought to the Crescent City Connection, a nearby bridge to Jefferson Parish, to carry them to safety.
The crowd cheered and began to move. Suspicious, Bradshaw said that he asked the commander if he was sure that buses would be there for them. “We’d had so much misinformation by that point,” Bradshaw said.
“He looked all of us in the eye and said, ‘I swear to you, there are buses waiting across the bridge,’ ” Bradshaw said.
But on the bridge there were four police cruisers parked across some lanes. Between six and eight officers stood with shotguns in their hands, the witnesses said. As the crowd approached, the officers shot over the heads of the crowd, most of whom retreated immediately, Bradshaw, Slonsky and Golden and her son said
Posted by Jon B on Sep 13, 2005 at 10:46 AM Yes, there were local problems and mistakes in New Orleans and elsewhere, but the ultimate responsibility for a situation of this magnitude goes to the federal government. Under Homeland Security they have a provision that allows them to take command at any time, in effect upsurping local control. FEMA/Homeland Security conveyed this to local communities in the gulf coast region.
In the case of New Orleans in particular local control was lost because of extreme factors beyond the control of local authorities. All electrical power out, all communications out, most roads impassable due to water and objects, downed wires, etc.
Last night on Scarboro (I just happened to be flipping through) an area in Mississippi had been told by FEMA to basically hang on for about 60 hours and help would arrive. It turns out that help did not arrive for several more days past that. In fact what little FEMA did was get in the way. They commadeered a truck of diesel fuel that was being brought into the area by the local authorities, bought and paid for by the county. FEMA also cut the communications tower to eliminate the only comminication they had and replaced it with their own, never telling local authorities they did this. They found out when they went to find out why they lost communications and found that FEMA had altered the tower.
There are emerging plenty of stories like this as well. FEMA lieing to people.
Yesterday Mike Brown resigned (more likely was fired) and Bush immediately replaced him with Duct Tape Guy. If you remember, back in early 2002, this guy told Americans to be prepared by buying duct tape and Americans went on a buying spree of duct tape. This was to seal up houses in case of biological or chemical attack.
Mike Brown used the old blame game for his reason for resigning and the common one Republicans use. It was the media, it’s all their fault.
The fact is the media didn’t bother to investigate this guy the whole time he was sort of running things. All this background on Brownie was available before Katrina and the media should have been reporting this. So, sure it’s the media’s fault, they were too late to expose his lack of experience, his connection to the guy who hired him, and his puffing up of his resume.
Posted by Jon B on Sep 13, 2005 at 11:26 AM Since Brown has fallen on his sword, and with Duct Tape Guy now taking his place, things should be able to continue moving along just as well as before.
It’s good to see that while the most obvious problems are being mismanaged as well as ever, the less obvious (potentially more serious) problems are being more or less ignored.
Hope the Duct Tape Guy has a whole box of tape to go around.
http://www.rense.com/general67/tox.htm
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 14, 2005 at 12:22 AM Yes, maybe after they’re done they can spare a little bit for the idiot mayor of NOLA and the equally moronic governor! In particualar, Nagin’s mouth could use a swath or two of duct tape…
Posted by g-love on Sep 14, 2005 at 6:37 PM pjdelao,
As you stated, “I can’t believe the comments on this website.”
If you are looking for a rational discussion you have come to the wrong place. There are very few who ever come here for anything other than to find affirmation of their anti-views. They are primarily Bush haters, but anyone to the right of them is soon subjected to name calling.
You will soon see that whatever the topic — only Bush, race or socialism will emerge (even if not mentioned in the site’s article).
Posted by whattheheck on Sep 15, 2005 at 4:46 PM I think we so glibly accept the government’s response that Homeland Security has been focused on terrorism response.
C’mon. If they had become any good at that, don’tn you think they would have been better at the flood?
Let’s hold their feet to the fire on all of it.
Next time they say they were focused too much on terrorism preparation, let’s so, oh yeah? share the components of a response to terrrorism with us, the components you have put in place.
I bet a lot of it would be the same thing you would have to mobilize in a natural disaster.
Let’s stop letting that slide. The fact is, whatever homeland security is doing, it is NOT doing what it says it is doing.
let’s start there.
Posted by marge on Sep 16, 2005 at 10:53 PM dear whatthakhek,
what did you expect? House and Garden spread on Trent Lott’s house?
Posted by marge on Sep 16, 2005 at 10:56 PM Whattheheck, you are actually a reasonable person, when the subject does not involve Bush or whatever you percieve socialism to be.
Rabbit has in all sincerity tried to narrow things down to a single relevant fact which could be established and agreed upon by us all, after which we can apply that fact to the differing views here and see where we end up.
Now if your support of Bush, who you correctly deduce is loathed by most of us here and as it happens by most of the world’s population as well. We don’t have to agree on this point. You can maintain if you wish that Bush is loved by all except the handfull of Lefties you seem to see here.
You know what Rabbit is asking don’t you? Please don’t make Rabbit clutter up the thread with more repetition.
This is not being pursued merely to win an argument. It is being pursued in order to help us all understand why it is humans with exactly the same Ideals in life, can find enough to make war over.
You and I are not so different WTH. Why would I, a sensible, intelligent and busy man believe your country was the absolute most despicable nation ever seen, today, when just five years ago you were our closest allies and nearest culture? Why would so many American sbelieve it?
Their views are so extreme WTH and others, mine are, that you owe it to yourselves to try and understand why this is. Does it make sense to you? Can you really explain it by saying Terrorists ort socialists, or communists are to blame? Does it honestly?
Many of us do know why you believe the things you do, but Rabbit tells you in all humility, you do not know yet why we are so angry.
We are angry, yes we are many of us really angry and scared to. For many of us this is much more than an ideological fight, it is a fight for survival, you are fighting an ideological fight but you are up against people who are fighting for their very survival, and if you think they are merely hysterical you are not paying attention.
WTH, if you try to answer Rabbits question you may come across the answer to what is wrong here and either set us right or, wake up. Nobody will laugh at you, most have at some time or other, many of late, had the same experience and cannot point the finger.
It is a shock to realise not only that the Emperor has no clothes but that it is so obvious when you really have a look.
Gentle Rabbit
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 17, 2005 at 9:29 AM Yay Rabbit… (I’m going to make up a story about a Ghost Rabbit one of these days!)
Emperor Bush IS a stinking sack of shit!!
Posted by Liz on Sep 26, 2005 at 10:02 AM Eh, Rabbit!! I’ve just jumped into this thread, sorry I didn’t join the conversation before…
Tell us, oh lapine cousin of the divine Bugs and perhaps even the Japanese Hare in the Moon….
How can you chuck out the government in Australia??
Dig under the rabbit proof fence??
What then??
Tell us, please!!!!
Posted by Liz on Sep 26, 2005 at 10:06 AM The Rabbits/Hobbits creed… for the little people eh…
sounds like grassroots (anarcho) socialism to THIS socialist!!
Posted by Liz on Sep 26, 2005 at 10:09 AM Got a great idea for that story, have you seen Warrior Rabbit? in DU thread? It is an epic and grande story, and is yet to be played to a conclusion. Ghost is a situation not a name. Rabbit is all. Yes on the Political def’n. Rabbit has never dared speak it aloud. If you had seen him taunting the Righties and Lefties sometimes who only think in two dimensions it would make sense.
They are yet to learn their ideals, something all Rabbits know amd even funny snails. How can we begin to explain anarchy?
Yeast has same ideals as us, just even lower ability to artcilulate them. They live them.
If Yeast could have altruistic ambition, maybe the Candida attack would be it’s best option.
Probably would need a virus to plan it.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 26, 2005 at 11:22 AM How to chuck out the government in Australia.
.....................
Begin with a simple creed, something simple, which cannot be mis-construed and which has a universal significance. For example Rabbit’s Four Ideals, their defination and explanation, in terms of their potential for human unity. The idera is to generate an idea which can unify all the different dissatisfied but divided factions in society.Here One Nation almost hit the right formula and Rabbit is VERY familiar with several of the players in WA of One Nation and speaks from some knowledge. What brought a brand new party from nowhere to 11% of the national vote in an election debut, was a simple, people based set of ideas.
The ideas were not much and not very well presnted, but they got across to a lot of ordinary people as good common sense. That was enough to generate a massive groundswell of support from nowhere, because you can believe the party got nothing but one sided media coverage which ridiculed and belittled their every move and even the system conspired to bring the party undone from within.Not least of the problems faced by ONE NATION was the perception of Racist Nationalism with which they were irrevocably stigmatised by the media after they concentrated on some of the more ill considered of Paulines remarks. Out of context of course.
Rabbit is not a Racist and although many who supported One Nation were, they were essentially well meaning and good country people. They would learn. Small steps is better than status quo., The racist image brought them undone. They were a unifying factor but still too narrow in appeal.
So take this “CREED” and bend it into a broad political platform. One which will address all the problems of the many. With thought such a simple ‘manifesto’ could be produced which would appeal to most people if it is possible to bring unity and it seems so, then the only thing is to find the unifying factor. If what is sought after is a new political party then it may be possible to do all the usual stuff from here on in. Broad brush, but we are among informed people, so far, thuis Rabbit assumes you know what that means.
The thing Rabbit would now do is print a few million leaflets, with a shiny cover, presenting the creed and some simple explanation of how it relates to them. Explain that the idea is to take back the country for people. Ask for people to stand wherever there is a seat in government of every level. So long as they are endorsed by the “Party” which just means they will follow the universal creed which is the core of the whole thing.
The candidates can be anybody, who needs a government run by Lawyers for the most part, ours is. If anybody breaks their oath to follow the creed they will be publickly dis-endorsed by a Party which exists only to ensure thye people’s creed is adhered to by it’s members. Any complaints against members would be followed up. The candidates would not be subject to the usual personal campaigns which the current parties so excel in. It would reqire no more cost than a single mail drop in every letterbox, once.
The rest is just names against numbers, the people can vote for their guy, knowing what they are going to get. Not caring or knowing anymore about the person they voted for than they ever did before. The difference is their candidate will be doing the job the way the people said they wanted it.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 26, 2005 at 1:05 PM Of course like anything it would take some strong and wise people to steer it, initially. There are such people. It is doable.
It is Rabbit’s budgetwise revolution.
Does that help Liz? Said some of it better and short at WM the other day, a cut and paste shall follow should you but ask.
Ther are many lovely angles to the plan. It eliminates expensive campaign, gives the media nothing to hang it’s hat on as far as policies, since they will be so broadly appealing to do so will cost them supporters and they have none to waste.
The opposition parties would be left with nothing to thrwo up but “Moonbats” or something similarly terrifying. They would face the same problems of having to risk alienating lots of people by attacking things they had come to hold deary, basically their Real Ideals.
Rabbit feels it could be a walk over if done at the right time and in the right way.
They would not even see it coming until too late.
There is one thing Rabbit might not include , except in whispers, but any such creed will inevitably lead to this. The idea does not have to be openly developed at the outset but it would be a good idea to nationalise all natural resources. They do actually belong to the nation and it is sort of like piracy when governments let private interests mine these resources using subsidised energy and water etc, as well as turning much of the local infrastructure over to catering specifically to these big mining interests. Then the loans and bail outs and the union crushing in the name of big business. Rabbit could go into a major rant about this so we shall leave it here.
This idea is the economic driving force for the new world. Instead of cashing in the JEWS we should cash in the Big Corporations. Now wouldn’t they love Rabbit at the G8?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 26, 2005 at 1:06 PM I don’t know wwoods, what “happened” in july… all I know is that - no actually, when I wanted to get back in at the end of the month, I found my self logged out - though I was on permanent login (though had no permanent identity) - and it was asking for one - though it hadn’t been, a few days before… Anyway, I couldn’t log in under my eternal identity, just “Liz”, so I e-mailed the webmaster and he kindly let me have it back…. he said that yup I was the “original” liz and that someone else had used the name but for about 2 posts, or something, so I could have the handle now as my permanent identity here .... in perpetuity I hope!
I sent another email probing on the subject of Michael Hardesty, to see if it was his persistent “alias trolling” - d’you know, I dubbed him “shapeshifting troll” and no-one congratulated me on it!! But I couldn’t get any more out of our webmaster.
Bet it was because of him though!!
GhostRabbit - ah - so THAT’S why you’re a ghost!! (People keep thinking up the most poetic names for themselves, here especially… a ghost rabbit must be a wondrous phenomenon to behold… reminds me of a folklore tale I know about a white hare in a churchyard (it kills you if you shoot at it!) from the South-West of Britain…Anyway: I keep getting these ethereal cartoon/illustration images in my head, whenever I read words and names that are particularly evocative!
Long live GhostRabbits and Moon Bats!
Down with Trolls, Shapeshifters, Dragons!
I never got no dragons, BTW. Only one Troll/Shapeshifter - Hardesty! (I really did bag him because I tracked his identity - BEFORE Lefty followed my suit!!)
Where is Lefty/leftist BTW, wwoods??
Posted by Liz on Sep 30, 2005 at 7:24 PM Oh, right, Rabbit… or should that be centre-left??
(I’ve just read your two end threads above mine. I checked back previously only there was no reply! Glad you liked my candida fancy!)
DU… is that Democratic Underground or Depleted Uranium?? (On ITT?)
Your ideals, while moderately confusing, because I don’t know what One Nation is, you see… oh yes, I vaguely do, only it was headed by some dreadful silly woman who hates Abos… I’m not Australian you see, though I am “internationalist”.
I like the idea of the simple shiny booklet to explain our “gang’s” ideals to The People.
The only people who do THAT in America are the Evangelican Christians (AND they use media such as comic books, little free comic books they hand out and leave in bus stations… they’ve been doing that for years) and Look where it’s got them… with lots of drooling followers!!
Yeah. It would be nice to arrive at a centre(ish)left coalition and to be able to summarize those ideals and policies in words that people WITHOUT a university or even a full high-school education could comprehend.
Left-wing socialist (Trotskyist) sites such as www.wsws.org (World Socialist Web Site) are interesting, but spend too much time arguing polemic in a kind of “house style” (closely modelled on Marx, Lenin and Trotsky you can bet) ... so that it all sounds the same; very little voice of the individual is visible through this house blend… and yet it has virtually ZERO popular/populist appeal (sorry wsws!!) APART from the “we tell you the truth and the angles that the MSM won’t give you” kind of pitch….
Other socialist sites are BETTER at the pamphleteering and rabble-rousing side; the WSWS are all up themselves so they never “stoop down” you see - they are all based on “consciousness-raising”... and frankly, I think they’re well-intentioned inhabitants of Cloud Nine.
They spend too much time arguing with other socialist groups - INCLUDING all other socialist sites - and calling them “Stalinist”.
But the “Stalinists” - such as the American Communist Party - are better at rabble-rousing than they are, and write more accessible pamphlets, I’ve seen a brilliant one from the ACP, I think, condemning the religious right… and you don’t have to be a university student to understand it!
Anyway, I’ve rambled on long enough here. The only thing that really “feds me up” about leftists, Rabbit, is their propensity to fight one another - now Christians USED to do that - but soon stopped once they knew the game was to grab market share!!
Posted by Liz on Sep 30, 2005 at 7:41 PM Pauline Hanson didn’t hate Aborigines actually , she was portryed as such by the media. They crucified her (Actually spelt Crudified the first time, nearly let it be), on a few ill considered remarks. More ignorance than real racism. In fact she only pointed out the fact that they get more social security than White families. She was refferring to the fact that the government was dividing the nation by treating some different to others.
. See how effectively they did it. It is all you know of her, and it is wrong. The truth is that most Aussies think the same, just as wrong though..
. Actually Rabbit’s best allies and friend are a very old tribe of Black-fellers up north of here.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 2, 2005 at 12:12 PM DU is Depleted Uranium, and the thead is Radioactive Wounds of War on ITT. Look at the top of the popular threads. God Squad is going to warm up. Rabbit is delighted you caught a Troll, are you sure it wasn’t a Shill? There are two on “Radiocative Wounds of War” and possibly one on “God Squad”. Or else it is a feeble troll, maybe something to cut your teeth on though. Rabbit is working at forming a posse of hunters, and can show you a few good examples of Trollery and how to call various types of Game.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 2, 2005 at 12:18 PM Page 1 of 1 pages -
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