At 7:45 am on the second day of school, Karen Meredith, a founding member of Gold Star Families For Peace, sat in front of a senior sociology class at Thomas Kelly High School on Chicago’s south side. “I am not anti-military, my son was a fourth generation army officer,” she told the class. “But I believe that this administration is not… return to article
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Reader Comments (55)Page 1 of 1 pages“You see the recruiters, they come to schools like this, they don’t come to schools in the suburbs, ‘cause those kids aren’t going to go in no army.”
Simply not true, at least where i live. Is there *any* basis for such a claim?
I wonder, anyone know the demographics of those who volunteer for serving their country? I would imagine the new officers have lots of options (the ones i know personally did, and most came from rather affluent households). I am unsure about the enlisted folks, but from what i read most have at least a high school diploma.
Posted by wolf on Sep 29, 2005 at 2:20 PM You hit it on the head OFFICERS have the options, their talking to kids who would end up as enlisted men. Kids that don’t have parents to pay for college let alone lifes nescessities.
However I will say that they do hit the suburb schools very very hard. So I do somewhat agree with you on that point. However visit some poor kids and see that they look at it as a chance to come up not as another option to choose from mainly because they don’t get to many options.
Posted by cnote on Sep 29, 2005 at 2:48 PM Rabbit saw some info on demographics of enlistment as it happens, hopefully can sniff it out, and come back.
..Are you sure you don’t want to stick with the God thing? You were always such a fan of God before, what has happened?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 30, 2005 at 4:04 AM These families should not be able to make it harder for recruiters to do their jobs. I signed up & was not lied to. This is an old trick of the left to bring down the military. Secondly sadition is illegal. Look it up & these families are using their fallen heros to promote a stupid cause. everyone in the military is A VOLUNTEER recruit. Of course poor people join the military while rich sit it out. this is the way of the world. It is time to kill the enemy that is muslims. Not a time to pussyfoot w/ anti military personell in this country. Lenin had a name for these kind of people. It was called usefull idiots
Posted by fatherof2 on Sep 30, 2005 at 7:11 PM Practically all front line troops are WHITE. That is right white. More whites have died in this war than the population of this country. Something like 80-85% . The point is whites join poor whites & the army is not sending so called minorities ito battle
Posted by fatherof2 on Sep 30, 2005 at 7:13 PM fatherof2 writes : ” sadition is illegal “
Sedition is typically a subvert act. What these families are doing is overt. Not sedition by a reasonable definition.
Some might level a (false) charge of treason against members of the military or their families.
The military oath taken at the time of induction reads:
“I,____________, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to the regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God”
The Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) 809.ART.90 (20), makes it clear that military personnel need to obey the “lawful command of his superior officer,” 891.ART.91 (2), the “lawful order of a warrant officer”, 892.ART.92 (1) the “lawful general order”, 892.ART.92 (2) “lawful order”. In each case, military personnel have an obligation and a duty to only obey Lawful orders and indeed have an obligation to disobey Unlawful orders, including orders by the president that do not comply with the UCMJ. The moral and legal obligation is to the U.S. Constitution and not to those who would issue unlawful orders, especially if those orders are in direct violation of the Constitution and the UCMJ.
The Bush administration’s arguement for “regime change” in Iraq as a basis for use of force is barred by Article 2(4) of the UN Charter, which prohibits “the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state.” Thus the rationales given to the world, the American public, and the armed forces are illegal.
fatherof2 wrties : ” It is time to kill the enemy that is muslims. “
Very sad. Muslims are not the enemy. Extremists of all stripes, sizes and shapes are the enemy.
Posted by David in Canada on Sep 30, 2005 at 11:45 PM worth repeating :
” military personnel have an obligation and a duty to only obey Lawful orders and indeed have an obligation to disobey Unlawful orders, including orders by the president that do not comply with the UCMJ. The moral and legal obligation is to the U.S. Constitution and not to those who would issue unlawful orders, especially if those orders are in direct violation of the Constitution and the UCMJ. “
An obligation to disobey UNLAWFUL orders. Just because they may say that the order is lawful does not make it so.
Posted by David in Canada on Sep 30, 2005 at 11:53 PM fatherof2
It is really loathesome when people just jump up and defend immoral practices espceially by the military and government.Especially when they make grandly idiotic claims that “The Left” is trying to destroy the military. Heh smarty, the military does the destroying, and that includes with and for the left. People like you who will defend anything at all if it seems like the warped standard of mindless loyalty you espouse and practice.
Families are telling the truth to fight a stupid and immoral war, begun on lies and run on lies and innocent lives. The fallen are not exactly heroes if they died for a lie you sad liitle being. Technically the US soldiers dying in Iraq are dying as WAR CRIMINALS.
They are engaged in an illegal war of conquest. FACT on the ground. They are not dying heroes, I’m sorry FATHER, dying is not heroic just because you do it. If the cause is wrong and if they are on the side of the agressor they are exempt from hero status according to the sort of values once espoused by a country of free people, who had a fine constitution by the way and were quite an inspiration in their day.
That country is gone now, and a terrible travesty of twisted loyalty and massive self-destructive hubris squats over the world like a Giant Harpie taking a monstrous and Crap.
The fact that some families have been able to ascertain the truth behind the thin facade of lies and self delusion is a credit to them and their “Fallen” loved ones. Heros to them maybe and why not, it is hardly the fault of the soldier to stupid, misinformed or cowardly to say no to what is just Murder and Looting on a grand scale. If these families are able to stand up and say the truth, they are heroes and those who now hear the truth and despise it, like you are the real villains.
There are many stories of lies being told to new recruits, many and they paint a consistent picture of an army in crisis, with no decent leadership and no moral basis. The level of dissatisfaction among troops is high and rising, the evidence is hard to avoid. Maybe that is the fault of Liberals too? Maybe it is the fault of truth which despite the best efforts of terrible leaders and ignorant douchebags like yourself, has a way of finding the light.
.Destroying the economy and thus producing many more poor to fill the ranks of the military is also not a step forward.
You do realise that amny Nazi-storm troopers had families who were proud of their brave and noble “Heroes” don’t you?
Like David said ...........“Muslims are not the enemy. Extremists of all stripes, sizes and shapes are the enemy”
As an uncritical cheerleader for any and all lies spread by a thoroughly discredited JUNTA, who would not hesitate to say “here have my two”, when BUSHLER the AWOL POTUS wants more cannon fodder for his adventures, you are a fine one to talk about useful idiots!
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 1, 2005 at 12:41 AM It might be a bit incendiary to imply that all US soldiers in this conflict are war criminals. I served for 5 years in the US Army. I went in with both eyes open and can’t say I was lied to either, but things aren’t as clear for them now.
One complaint I had about my military service was that nobody could explain what an unlawful order was. The examples they always used were rather simplistic and impractical. They never said what to do when ordered to board a plane for a war against a practically defenseless country thousands of miles away. Do they even get to ask where the bombs they are loading will be dropped?
These soldiers of ours are being lied to by people just like fatherof2 when he says so confidently that Muslims are the enemy and that the solution to terrorism is simply to kill more people faster. The are being lied to regularly when they are told that the world is black and white and that you are either good or bad, right or wrong, with us or against us. Those are extremely dangerous views to hold.
Fatherof2 doesn’t seem to realize that it isn’t dissent, rather it is the blind support he has for administration policy that is eating the guts out of our country.
PS: This isn’t relevant, but I couldn’t leave it hanging out there. The percentage of minority fatalities in Iraq alone are about 26% of the total. It seems to be actually a little lower than the overall percentage of minorities in the US (about 30%). This info was not hard to find.
Posted by GrayArea on Oct 1, 2005 at 4:42 AM Gray some of Rabbit’s posts are being eaten by the machine, just lost a reply.
Rabbit understands that the words used are very disturbing to hear, they are not easy for Rabbit to say and they are said with a sense of awe at the same time as a sense of shock and outrage. It is not outrage at the soldiers who could as easily have been Rabbit or his Sons. It’s the DU, it is and will be dealt with as War crime one day. The thing about these kind of things is that a soldier can follow an illegal order on Good Conscience,but this does not exempt him, it is merely to be taken account of in defending War crimes Charges.
. Rabbit too in military once. We had unlawful orders explained and something was made of it along the way.
..
Not much on specifics though either .
..
Rabbit thinks this is because the Military has no word for CONSCIENCE. How can they explain that.
.This has always been my definition, but it applys equally well to all Rabbit acts.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 1, 2005 at 8:55 AM On the minorities Gray…...... Rabbit was going to say it is perhaps fair they get less exposure to being dead, it is less their war than the white man’s…........ Said with all due Irony of course…..............^^.............Your figures will do Rabbit and the small discrepancy is not significant to warrant further mention,............... probably ...................not!
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 1, 2005 at 10:11 AM I said ” Extremists of all stripes, sizes and shapes are the enemy. “
But I DO NOT advocate getting that enemy up against the wall and shooting them either.
Just to be clear.
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 2, 2005 at 12:33 AM Father 02 writes “everyone in the military is A VOLUNTEER recruit.”
This may be true, but I highly doubt the national guard who are now serving in Iraq thought they’d be invading a foreign country when they signed up. More likely these guardsmen thought they’d be helping here at home, expecting to be around to rescue stranded evacuees of a natural disaster—like those fleeing Hurricanes Katrina and Rita. I also doubt they thought they’d be asked to fight an illegal war that was launched with lies and deception. We owe it to our sons and daughters that if we’re going to ask them to place their lives on the line, the cause at least be just.
Posted by divinemissm on Oct 2, 2005 at 9:08 AM Father 02 writes ” Lenin had a name for these kind of people. It was called usefull idiots.”
Sadly enough, men, like Hitler, had words for blind followers who don’t question their government and hold its officials accountable:“Of course the people don’t want war… That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it’s always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it’s a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”
—Hermann Goering, Adolf Hitler’s Deputy Chief and Luftwaffe Commander, at the Nuremberg trials, 1946 from “Nuremberg Diary” by G M Gilbert
Posted by divinemissm on Oct 2, 2005 at 9:14 AM “One complaint I had about my military service was that nobody could explain what an unlawful order was.”
I agree this is true. But common sense would say that being ordered to rape civilian boys is an illegal order (i would normally say this is a way over the top example, but see the thread “When we were Psychos”). So in regards to being ordered to torture captives, i would think common sense would kick in. . .
“The examples they always used were rather simplistic and impractical.”
How about not shooting unarmed civilians in the head? Is this the sort of simplistic examples you are refering to? If so, perhaps making such common sense things explicit is useful?
“They never said what to do when ordered to board a plane for a war against a practically defenseless country thousands of miles away. “
Yes they did. Board the plane. Or be tried and convicted of desertion.
“Do they even get to ask where the bombs they are loading will be dropped?”
Probably not. They probably do not have the need to know.
Posted by wolf on Oct 2, 2005 at 5:17 PM “This may be true, but I highly doubt the national guard who are now serving in Iraq thought they’d be invading a foreign country when they signed up.”
Agreed!
“More likely these guardsmen thought they’d be helping here at home, expecting to be around to rescue stranded evacuees of a natural disaster—like those fleeing Hurricanes Katrina and Rita. “
Disagree. All of the people i know who are in the National Guard and Reserves are there for the extra “easy” money. It was a gamble that not only did not pay off, but the downside was probably worse than most could have imagined when they made the bet.
“I also doubt they thought they’d be asked to fight an illegal war that was launched with lies and deception. We owe it to our sons and daughters that if we’re going to ask them to place their lives on the line, the cause at least be just.”
In other words, you are against the war.
Posted by wolf on Oct 2, 2005 at 5:25 PM “ Extremists of all stripes, sizes and shapes are the enemy. “
I would distinguish those who act against us versus those who are merely kooky. Furthermore, lets not forget some of the “extreme” views of the past: “all men are created equal”, “i have a dream”, and many others. . .
Posted by wolf on Oct 2, 2005 at 5:30 PM wolf,
Right.Extremists who use twisted ideals to justify violence and force to spread their ideology against the rights of others are the bad guys.
Good to see you are catching on.
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 2, 2005 at 9:25 PM Actually, wolf, shooting unarmed civilians in the head was *the* worthless example given. Tragic that even these events go unpunished. The catch is that so long as someone says “lookout, he’s coming right for us!” Well, in that case all that ‘training’ goes out the window.
If the company commander says “That house is where the terrorists are.” Who am I to ask if they are quite sure? If the government assures me that this DU ammo is safe to use, shall I risk the lives of my tank crew with my disobedience?
One thing that is specifically not explained, is that failure to follow an unlawful order will almost certainly result in long-term incarceration. However, it may save your humanity. The choice is theirs, I suppose.
Somehow, I feel that this is asking a lot of our uniformed men and women. It doesn’t make me feel better that they are volunteers.
Posted by GrayArea on Oct 2, 2005 at 9:56 PM And before you point at the others before looking at yourself.
The ” eye for an eye ” has gone on long enough.
A better way has been revealed.
These days it seems that some want to poke out other’s eyes before they, maybe, might, get poked and the cycle starts anew.
Soon everyone is blind.
Open your eyes while you still have them.
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 2, 2005 at 10:00 PM The better way being :
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Do that honestly.
Do Not twist the “doing” to suit only your own selfish perceptions and purposes.
Defending yourself from the real attack of a real enemy doing you real harm. OK? As a last resort.?
Define defending, attack, enemy and harm?
Do Not attack pre-emptively, calling it defensive, an enemy, real or perceived and/or portrayed as real or perceived as real, who may, might, one day, be planning on and/or doing you real or imaginary harm.
Do Not deceive yourself and others.
Do this :
No one of you is a believer until he desires for his brother that which he desires for himself. - Sunnah
Hurt not others in ways that you yourself would find hurtful. - Udana-Varga 5,1
What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellowman. This is the entire Law; all the rest is commentary. - Talmud, Shabbat 3id
Regard your neighbor’s gain as your gain, and your neighbor’s loss as your own loss.- Tai Shang Kan Yin P’ien
This is the sum of duty; do naught onto others what you would not have them do unto you. - Mahabharata 5,1517
All things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye so to them; for this is the law and the prophets. - Matthew 7:1If allegedly different people can’t agree with something this simple then how will they learn more from and about one another and hopefully see the others, one day, maybe, all of us as one of us.
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 2, 2005 at 11:26 PM Hello David in Canada,
With respect, I point out that too few of those who would read your offerings here have an agenda of deliberate pursuit of enlightenment, as you clearly do.
I’m glum to say it, but most are basically partisans, justifying their ideological stances and/or their views on policy as they begin to comment on the articles and then go off on a few well-worn tirades. Traditions of wisdom are less, crafty rhetorical fencing is more. Or, as often, telling those who disagree with them what low-lifes they are in singularly uncreative and tedious ways.
Myself, I think that without the emphasis upon compassion and empathy among people, capitalism and socialism both quickly take their most brutal forms. Most suffer or at best eke out a dead-end living, a few live like princes. Wars are easily justified, and all of the accessory death and dismemberment is simply explained away. And I say this as one who cannot really claim to be a pacifist; I’m still in debate with myself about the moral rectitude of refusing to fight in all circumstances.
As I see it, there are still vast numbers of people who think of all that spiritual enlightenment and brotherhood-of-man stuff as a bunch of soft-headed, cowardly crap. Or perhaps a utopian delusion. At best, they’ll give it lip-service, then explain why continuing the old pattern of violence and victimization is still needed, this time. To contribute to a better, more just world tomorrow, of course. Like I said, lip-service.
I guess it’s a matter of establishing whether compassion is an essential need, or (as many appear to believe) an expensive and largely self-indulgent luxury.
There was a post elsewhere around here about a willingness to fight the good fight, I forget who offered it and don’t have the patience to go digging for it. But the prophets and scriptures you cite above also describe a “good fight” that may not get much credence from the conflict-loving world, but that is still the most noble fight of all, to fight the evil out of oneself. Thanks for including them.
Posted by Kuya on Oct 3, 2005 at 9:41 AM In response to the article, the angst and sense of being let-down expressed by these military families may not be universal among that demographic, but is surely worthy of respectful attention. It might be said that they “should have known the risks” (I’m quoting an acquaintance and colleague who speaks like that when Cindy Sheehan et al are in the news), but the small bright side in an otherwise vastly sad tale is that there’s some level of attention being paid to people who don’t automatically parrot a dictated line, whose experiences have an outside chance of educating others and showing them a side of this war that in past decades would not likely have seen the light of day.
Dissent is not sedition, not in America nor in any place that upholds the idea of thoughtful citizen action as the driver of society. America has dissent woven into its basic fabric.
When my son pondered the idea of joining the military, I told him that if he really was determined to go for it I’d back him up, but that I insisted he consider carefully the reality of signing on to take orders for a living, especially when those orders might require him to kill or risk death for a cause he didn’t actively believe was worthy of such. We talked for months. I still admire my relatives and friends who have worn the uniform, but I’m glad my son has changed his mind.
Posted by Kuya on Oct 3, 2005 at 10:09 AM We in Oz also have dissent woven even more thoroughly into our characters. We are in an equally well prepared NWO pie, and with about as much of a chance of getting out of it. Read almost none. Due to a largely submissive Sheeple Factor. We can dissent all we want, but without organisation, to bring unity and a clear alternative, we like you will achieve nothing but a change of Emperor for the Clothes.
. You will end up with a Clinton, again, or a Kerry, or someone equally determined to continue the “WAR ON TERROR”.
. We will get a Beazley or who knows what the Libs have up their sleeves by then. Still the same old same old.
. We want change, we are dissenting, all of us in some way or another, but what will come of it?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 3, 2005 at 10:54 AM GreyArea - mistakes will always be made, and people will die as a result. Whether you are a surgeon, a policeman, or a soldier, if you have the power of life and death in your hands, mistakes will be made and death will occasionally result.
If the mistake is egregious, then you may face some sort of punitive action (a surgeon may be charged with malpractice, a soldier or policeman with a crime). If it is “understandable” or “reasonable”, then you may be punished slightly or not at all. As you know, the definition of these words are loose and difficult to quantify. . .
My metaphor for Iraq is one of a domestic disturbance. The father was beating the hell out of the wife and kids, and the US (police) intervened (as it turns out, the WMD were absent, but the plastic shredders were real). Some of the family is glad to see us, but the brutes and bullies despise us - and even their fellow family members (Sunnis killing Shiites).
If the police respond to domestic disturbances and sometimes death results, should they stop responding to such calls? How do we “help” those in such drastic situations? Of do we merely avert our eyes (as we do so naturally in places like Darfur)?To me, this is the central question that begs to be answered. Do we (and by we, should that be just the US or a real international community?) help others that are enslaved (pre-war Iraq) or just ignore them? And even when we choose to “help”, how do we measure our progress or lack of thereof? Perhaps all of this is obvious and simple to many, but to me the answers seem shrouded in mystery and any actions we take or not take, fraught with peril.
Posted by wolf on Oct 3, 2005 at 2:28 PM Stop being a gutless puke and read Rabbit’s ;ast post. Answer it if you can.
. Then suck on this.——VICIOUS little PUPPY
. http://www.rense.com/general67/dossa.htm
.
Many Middle Eastern countries are ruled by puppets on the American payroll. Even the Saudis are under American protection. If there is oppression in the Middle East, it is because U.S. puppets and protectorates are doing what the U.S. government wants, not what the people they rule want.
The Middle East is in despair because almost a century after the First World War freed Arabs from Turkish occupation, they still cannot get free of U.S. and British occupation. The reasons Osama bin Laden has a cause among Muslims are (1) U.S. military bases in the Middle East and (2) Israeli practices such as stealing the West Bank and herding Palestinians into ghettos.
What kind of fool believes that the way to bring democracy to a country is to invade, destroy cities and infrastructure, and kill and maim tens of thousands of civilians, while creating every possible animosity by aligning with some members of the society against the others?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 4, 2005 at 1:31 AM Hi Kuya
I agree when you write : ” most are basically partisans, justifying their ideological stances and/or their views on policy as they begin to comment on the articles and then go off on a few well-worn tirades. Traditions of wisdom are less, crafty rhetorical fencing is more. Or, as often, telling those who disagree with them what low-lifes they are in singularly uncreative and tedious ways.”
Tiresome and tedious indeed. Entertaining sometimes though. A month or more ago I thought that trolls were story book monsters that lived under bridges and harassed goats. Now I have, sadly, learned differently. The new trolls obviously exist but some people seem to see them as anyone who doesn’t have the same viewpoint.
Kuya wrote : ” There was a post elsewhere around here about a willingness to fight the good fight, I forget who offered it and don’t have the patience to go digging for it. But the prophets and scriptures you cite above also describe a “good fight” that may not get much credence from the conflict-loving world, but that is still the most noble fight of all, to fight the evil out of oneself. Thanks for including them. ”
You are welcome. Thank you for this pearl worth polishing: ” the most noble fight of all, to fight the evil out of oneself “
I find there are very few crimes that others have committed that I have not committed in my own heart.
The lesson is to ” go forth and sin no more “.
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 4, 2005 at 1:42 AM WOLF you are completely off your rocker, How the hekll can you write this.
” .
“and by we, should that be just the US or a real international community?”
. ....No you fool a more appropriate question is should the US be allowed to dictate to the international community, and the answer is actually rhetoric, clown. The international community has had to consider it’s problems without the USA for thje USA has excluded itself from the international community in so many things. You just don’t get it, you don’t dictate who the international community is, we are here, BOZO and we don’t need your telivisionm screens to know it.—“help others that are enslaved (pre-war Iraq) or just ignore them?”
..
Who the hell was enslaved you idiot? Iraq women are (in your eyes) enslaved now, they are being forced to accept Sharia Law, thanks to you and your stupid “Decision to Interfere”, before you screwed their country up Iraq was the most free and open society in the middle EAST. Wolf you can’t spin that, it is history.—“And even when we choose to “help”, how do we measure our progress or lack of thereof?”
. ... You could measure your progress by the amount of peace, the quality of life of those you “CHOSE to HELP”, and maybe by how happy and grateful they seemed. That is just off the top of Rabbit’s head Wolf, but it seems like a start.—“Perhaps all of this is obvious and simple to many, but to me the answers seem shrouded in mystery”
. ....You are right that these answers seem obvious and simple to many Wolf. Anybody who can think and actually wants to do so cannot help but be aghast at your IDIOCY. The mystery is that you can post such complete Rubbish as you do.
. .
Does it make you feel clever to ask such insanely stupid questions?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 4, 2005 at 1:43 AM David do you think you could point out the silly nature of the WOLFS last post, the first bit I see is as weird as the second and could do with sorting out, it might be nice to see someone else’s take on WOLF’s WISDOM
.
“My metaphor for Iraq is one of a domestic disturbance. The father was beating the hell out of the wife and kids, and the US (police) intervened (as it turns out, the WMD were absent, but the plastic shredders were real). Some of the family is glad to see us, but the brutes and bullies despise us - and even their fellow family members (Sunnis killing Shiites)”
. .
Can anybody think of a better metaphor than this?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 4, 2005 at 1:48 AM By the way Kuya.
.
The sad fact is that any ‘discussion’ with Trolls turns out becoming somewhat abusive, because without the normal logic, honesty or reason required in a debate, once all logical avenues are exhausted there remains no desire in the reasonable one to be polite towards the Troll or Fool. rabbit does ondeed distinguish between Trolls and Shills, as compared to mere dittoheads. The former, he seeks to say what low-lifes they are in singularly creative and artistic ways. So as to at least add entertainment value to the necessary tedium of having to strike squarely on a moving target, when the conventional debate fails to be met by a fair opponent.
. Provided the central contention of the thread is reffered to, or at least returned to, digression is actually Troll’s and Shill’s doing as a rule anyway. It is one of the things Rabbit seeks to combat, Digression, for it’s own sake, but it is too easy to follow a Troll into the undergrowth if you don’t stay alert.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 4, 2005 at 1:56 AM I think he needs to add to the metaphor.
That the police (USA) killed a few of the kids (the innocents) and maimed the mother in the process of putting the father (Saddam) away. Granted the father was a tyrant and in the past had killed a few too, but he was doing some of the tyranny at the urging of the police, they even gave him a few guns.
Haven’t the police (USA) become the new daddy (tyrant)?
Just off the cuff.
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 4, 2005 at 3:47 AM Oh .. and the police broke the windows that were not broken before and and smashed in the door too .. just like the other daddy used to do.
Beats the hell out of them. First the kick and then the pat. New daddy is bringing out a sock puppet to soothe the crying children and the wounded mother lays stricken on the ground.
That’s a nice story now. All the weepy parts layed out.
Same terror, different terror?
Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 4, 2005 at 6:40 AM Hello Rabbit,
I guess I express annoyance with the venom because I’m weary of it. I’ve received a share of it here at ITT in other threads, and it bites (although not all that much lately; can’t decide whether that means I’m being ignored or respected… I’ll take either one, if the alternative is an insult). I used to respond to venomous barbs thrown my way, now I just leave them alone. Don’t want to positively reinforce the behavior, ya dig.
Even from those whose views I find incomprehensible, I still learn something. Sometimes what I learn, I don’t like (as per fatherof2’s earlier posts… shocking!). But I’m a curious cat by nature, so it’s cool. But I do find insulting repartee to be tedious, not worth my time, even if it’s not directed at me. On a tangent, it’s one major reason I refuse to watch all that so-called reality TV, in which people bitching at each other is the main fare. It rankles.
Posted by Kuya on Oct 4, 2005 at 8:03 AM I’m a cat, you’re a rabbit, wolf is a wolf… There’s a kid’s story in this somewhere…
Posted by Kuya on Oct 4, 2005 at 8:12 AM Back to the main vein…
I’d be curious to know how often families who have a tradition in the military are called “traitors” when they question or denounce the war and the leadership who have brought it to us. Of course I find the whole habit of throwing that epithet around to be appallingly simplistic, and revealing of a lack of acquaintance with the constitutional definition of treason. How dissention from policy can be directly equated with giving aid and comfort to the enemy is one of those incomprehensible but (somehow) educative instances I mentioned above.
If someone justifies the war with reasoned analysis, even if I disagree with their premise and conclusion, I can at least see that they’re doing some thinking about it rather than just throwing rhetorical shit around the monkey cage. But these pundits and the citizens who parrot them, for whom any lack of laser-hot, red-white-and-blue fervor is supposedly evidence of hatred for my country, they’re really out of control. I wouldn’t take them seriously, except of course that they echo loudly and influence others to speak and act in kind.
Those fucking traitors!
Yuck! See, that just looks and sounds plain stupid. Even when it’s fake.
Posted by Kuya on Oct 4, 2005 at 8:26 AM Hmmm, now I’m talking about parrots and monkeys. The animal kingdom invades ITT…
Obviously my head is stuck. Until next time.
Posted by Kuya on Oct 4, 2005 at 8:29 AM Nice… Rabbit and David Tag-team Wolf.
The new and improved metaphor seems about right but add that the neighbor kids are now throwing rocks at us and we (the police?) have to shoot them to defend ourselves.
Posted by GrayArea on Oct 4, 2005 at 2:22 PM “I’d be curious to know how often families who have a tradition in the military are called “traitors” when they question or denounce the war and the leadership who have brought it to us”
Interesting subject. I find it almost incomprehensible that *families* can and are actually broken apart due to differing opinions like these. In the way i think one can classify opinions in three categories:
1) Opinions that *really matter*. These include what is for dinner, what school the kids get sent to, and all the things where the people who hold the opinions actually get to decide what is going to happen.
2) Opinions that don’t matter. These include stuff like whether Reagan was a good president or an awful one, whether the war in Iraq is justified or not, etc. Basically these are opinions on things we have no control over.
3) Borderline opinions. These include things like what religion is “right”, especially if you can promulgate your opinion to others. This is, by nature, a very fuzzy category.
Spreading opinions (memes) can be powerful, but whether or not it will ever have a tangible effect is hard to reckon. In cases where no direct tangible effect is likely (no one is going to change their mind, for instance), collateral damage can still be extreme (for instance, a family broken apart due to opposing religious or political viewpoints).Last thing. Rudeness is unnecessary and offensive. I see no reason why one cannot merely express their opinions as cogently as they are able and leave it at that. Personal attacks add nothing to a reasoned debate or discussion. Now it is back to the zoo for me.
Posted by wolf on Oct 4, 2005 at 2:34 PM “The new and improved metaphor seems about right but add that the neighbor kids are now throwing rocks at us and we (the police?) have to shoot them to defend ourselves.”
I like the new metaphor. It still leaves open the question: do we do nothing or do we act to “improve” the situation? How do we decide what course of action to take? How many “children” do we allow the “father” to maim and kill before we attempt to “help”?Last thing. If we did nothing, Iraq would be in terrible shape now (this is *not* to say Iraq is not in terrible shape with us acting, as we know). We saw the deaths of 100’s of thousands of innocents, many of which were children, under Saddam and sanctions (note that Saddam lived like a king under sanctions, although his citizens starved and died of lack of medicine). How would the tragedy of Iraq ended under those sort of circumstances? Perhaps the answer is that it was simply not our problem, and we could have averted our eyes?
Posted by wolf on Oct 4, 2005 at 2:44 PM Wolf,
. Rabbit does believe you are getting it. The beauty of it is you’ll still be able to use the old slogans, they’ll just have actual meaning instead of cruel irony.
. Rabbit cannot give you even the small satisfaction of agreeing “If we did nothing, Iraq would be in terrible shape now”. If America had done nothing, at what point exactly?
. When they helped arm and support Saddam Hussein?
When they encouraged him to attack Kuwait, who was stealing Iraqi Oil, via slant drilling?
When they enforced brutalising Sanctions as a means of crippling Iraq over the decade after?
When they enforced totally unreasonable and impossible to comply demands on Iraq in preparation for invasion?
At many of these points it would have been better if they had done nothing. Now it would be better if they puuled out and did nothing more. But alas WOLF. Having come this far without reason or right, and having learnt nothing so far of the true mistake, it is highly unlikely that the next even more insane phase will not now be put into action.
. Now based on a complete repeat of the same utterly twisted scenario, we are seeing a repeat performance, with Iran, and maybe Syria about to be forced to wear the Indian Suit.
. Your very last sentence is exactly what you should have said. Now it is your problem and it is becoming everyone’s problem.
. Get ready for a Nuclear Holocaust, Wolf. As you may soon begin to realise, the actual situation we are in is not only serious, it is not over just because we can see it. Frankly it is as much as we can do to make ordinary people wake up, how are we going to move a desperate, insane gang of thugs and criminals who are driven only by self preservation at this point.
. The White House is probably going to Implode, very soon. The result is not going to be a quite changing of the Guard, I’d guess.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 4, 2005 at 3:30 PM David
. Rabbit thinks you have clinched the metaphor, very picturesque and accurate.
. What about raping the wife, children and dog and selling pictures of it all on the net?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 4, 2005 at 3:33 PM Sure throw them in jail first, a little torture, a little rape.
And they drove over the dog when they arrived to storm the house.
What a nice story.
Coming soon to an Iraqi village not near you.
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 4, 2005 at 8:29 PM Then screwed it.
. Dead dog live dog, so long as it’s still warm..
.What was it we were talking about again.?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 5, 2005 at 1:03 AM “In the past military families have had a code of silence,” McConnell says. “They have broken that code and said what they really think about the lack of protection for their families and the fact that the war has not ever been justified. When the history of the opposition to the Iraq war is written military families will be noted as one of the main forces that turned the tide against the war. They are the credible witnesses to the cost of the war.
That is what we are talking about.
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 5, 2005 at 1:29 AM .. on a technical note .. it would seem that our gracious ITT hosts have made some formatting adjustments to the comments we post .. i.e. a one line space is a one line space .. back to reality .. but as always brief is best .. conserve bandwidth
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 5, 2005 at 4:31 AM Had to post this somewhere.
Words from George Bush speech on terrorism October 6, 2005.
“Evil men obsessed with ambition and unburdened by conscience must be taken very seriously, and we must stop them before their crimes multiply.”
pot ... kettle ... black
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 6, 2005 at 8:45 PM Wolf,
Glad you like the new improved metaphor.
You wrote: “It still leaves open the question: do we do nothing or do we act to “improve” the situation? How do we decide what course of action to take?”Some people can’t be helped. They have to work it out for themselves. Set a good example and hope they will follow.
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 6, 2005 at 9:38 PM “Evil men obsessed with ambition and unburdened by conscience must be taken very seriously, and we must stop them before their crimes multiply.”
Damn it the bastard keeps taking all our best lines!
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 7, 2005 at 1:00 AM Are you people insane or what? In the 1980’s Iran was a enemy to the US because your pathetic prez. Carter left the SHaw alone & that is why Radical murderers were able to flourish. It’s because of the pacifism & peace @ all cost you moron promote which has warped a generation. We will always have wars. The only thing that matters is if you are on the winning sides.
What do you people work for Osama mama. Sadam was the boogy man. I would have prefered BUsh declare war on the Middle East shit hole after 9/11 & re-enstated the draft, but sadly our politicians are weak & care to much for the leftist scum.
Can you imagine what would have happened to the middle east if FDR was alive & they bombed us in the 40’s? It would be see ya.
Yeh that is right the great social dem was going to nuke the crap out of Japan for far less carnage. By the way most military families disagree w/ the scum of the Anti war left which is ran by the Communist Party & International ANswer. The only difference is it doesn’t fit into the bring bush down crowd. Tell my why military families who support BUsh are not as reported on as the anti.
Posted by fatherof2 on Oct 7, 2005 at 5:27 PM fatherof2,
President Carter was your (assuming you are an American) president too, even if you did not vote for him.
Democrats are not the enemy of Republicans. Republicans are not the enemy of Democrats.
Or they should not be.Most people from the Middle East are not your enemy. You are not the enemy of most people from the Middle East. Or you and they should not be.
People that want peace are not your enemy.
People that want war should be your enemy.It is not us versus them.
It is us versus ourselves.
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 8, 2005 at 12:28 AM fatherof2 are you insane? Things have been posted above nd Rabbit shall repeat. The Shah, was a ratbag. Rabbit personally knows some ex-Shahs Guard, and good friends as they are, Rabbit knows more than he needs about what things were like under the Shah. You cannot talk to Rabbit about things of which you know nothing.
The leader who would have been popularly elected by the people of iran and which would have seen an entirely different outcome for the Middle East and Iran specifically, was murdered by US agents. The Iranians had never been antagonistic to the USA before that, but after this they began calling the USA the Great Satan as so many others before and since.
Rabbit shall be posting a lesson for fatherof2, from a Fatherof3, who has the advantage of having travelled with an open mind. This will be regarding the history of Britsh/US interference in the Midlle East and should give a clear picture of a pair of plundering and pillaging superpowers who have committed countless atrocities and been behind all the worst regimes in the Middle East and are so to this day. The hypocrisy of your stance fatherof2 has earned such a response.
Now Rabbit is busy, but within next few days.
Boy are you in for it.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 8, 2005 at 3:47 AM Rabbit looks by and goes Stompy Stomp stomp…....................Have not forgotten this promise and soon, these threads are long lived and are nice for that…...........................................................Know nothing ignoramus armchair bloody historians. At least make an effort to verify your main contentions, garnered from watching the TV News no more
.............. Angry Foot…...........
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 10, 2005 at 7:07 AM Earlier in this thread we were discussing lawful commands and unlawful commands. Obeying and disobeying.
” A Royal Air Force doctor will become the first British officer to face a court martial for refusing to return to Iraq because he thought the war was illegal “
http://www.spacewar.com/2005/051016003841.lzs998fo.html
I hope he is found innocent of the charges : four counts of disobeying a lawful command. It is a courageous act to risk a career and even be prepared to go to prison for one’s beliefs.
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 16, 2005 at 11:10 PM Here is a father of a soldier who has been to Iraq. Read his opinion on ” Supporting the Troops “
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10606.htm
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 16, 2005 at 11:16 PM Page 1 of 1 pages -
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