In 1969, news of the My Lai massacre hit the American press and gave the already-queasy stateside citizenry a shock to the system. Nothing in that tumultuous era evoked so terrifyingly the feeling that a line had been crossed, from hopeful civilization to horrific monstrosity. There was fallout of all varieties, but one of the most remarkable results was eventus non… return to article
-
subscribe to print magazine
-
email this article to a friend
-
Reader Comments (17)Page 1 of 1 pagesYes war is Hell. Yes horrible things happen in war. Yes the soldiers on the US side also did some unbelievably horrible things. All true. Too true.
But let’s be fair. Let us not forget the atrocities committed by both sides, in every conflict. Let us not think we are *that* different from the other side.
Let us not forget that the official policies of the US are much higher than the behaviours actually performed and seen on the battlefield. At least that is something.
Finally, let us put this all into some sort of context. Given that peoples are capable of such horrors, how do we stack up against the Holocost of the Germans? The death marches and comfort girls of the Japanese? The gulags of the Soviets?
Are we noble? Or are we swine? Or are we merely human?
Posted by wolf on Sep 27, 2005 at 7:15 PM Wolf,
The whole point of the Winter Soldier Investigations is that US POLICY involved ordering soldiers to commit atrocities and war crimes. This is so important, that it’s worthy of being repeated: The whole point of the Winter Soldier Investigations is that US policy involved ordering soldiers to commit atrocities and war crimes.
Everyone knows atrocities were committed - we have numerous reports and photos. Many people, like yourself, want to blame these atrocities on individual soldiers. While all individuals must take personal responsibility for their actions, the US public and government, too, must take responsibility for ordering soldiers to commit atrocities.
Your lame comparisons to Hitler and Stalin are pathetic. Yes, the US government is better than them, but so what? The KKK didn’t do as much damage as Hitler or Stalin, but are you rushing out to join the klan?
We should evaluate the morality of actions, by considering them in light of moral maxims, not by comparing the actions to the absolute worst murders that we can think of.
For a long time, the US government has been trying to get people to do what you are doing: to blame the soldiers, rather than examining the policy and the orders those soldiers are given. Hopefully, the release to this film will open some eyes to what these soldiers were ordered to do, orders that came directly from their commanders, but orders for which the entire US public is to some degree responsible.
Posted by justaguy on Sep 28, 2005 at 6:08 AM “We should evaluate the morality of actions, by considering them in light of moral maxims,”
Agreed.
“not by comparing the actions to the absolute worst murders that we can think of.”
Disagree. We do not exist in a vacuum. To expect perfection is to be disappointed. Better to see how people and nations actually behave in practise, and then “grade” on a curve.
“For a long time, the US government has been trying to get people to do what you are doing: to blame the soldiers,”
Yes. I do blame the soldiers. They are/were responsible for their actions.
“rather than examining the policy and the orders those soldiers are given. “
The two are not mutually exclusive. We should “teach” (don’t they already *knoe*?) soldiers not to follow immoral or illegal orders and attempt to alter US policy so that it is as moral as possible.
But in the end, we will still be imperfect and immoral, at least at times. It is merely the nature of our existance. This does not imply we should not strive for excellence, only that we should not dispair when we fall short.
There is a underlying issue lurking in many of these type discussions. Is the US “superior” to other nations? Or are all nations equally “valid” (moral?)? It seems to me that many believe the latter, whereas i explicitly believe the former. . .
In any case, we are all (presumably) on the same side. No more atrocities! Well, maybe just some “lite” torture in Gitmo (you know, loud music, stress positions, maybe a dog or lady to put them offbalance, but no physical torture), but only if it really is likely to get useful information.
Posted by wolf on Sep 28, 2005 at 3:08 PM We Are Still Psychos
Driven Psycho by Big Oil
Our fat, macho, sassy, propaganda informed population is complicit, trusting, compliant, sheltered, scared, Islamaphobic, and impotent. We’ve been tricked and drugged big time by Big Oil into massive self-destructive consumerism.
America is a huge car, huge house in a subdivision, huge big screen (but little reality), nearby huge freeway and huge mall, huge commute, huge slums, huge poverty, huge personal debt, huge public debt, huge risk to the environment, huge risk to the world. How can people live like that?They’ve just been driven psycho by Big Oil.
How much longer can people live like that? Big Oil, only driven by trips to the bank, wants the addiction to to continue, disavowing the millions of victims, at home and abroad, strewn in their wake.
The Bush govt is not even vaguely considering leaving Iraq. Our psycho addiction must secure “our oil supply.” The stuporous population nods.
Or, Just Say NO to Big Oil.
Break the addiction, be creative, recover, delay ‘the peak’ and the rising seas that will sink all tankers.
Posted by vanromeo on Sep 28, 2005 at 3:18 PM vanromeo - i agree with some of what you say. We (the west) are addicted to oil. We should certainly sever the money/oil/weapons pipeline between the modern world and the middle east.
However, i don’t think the US consumer is being “tricked” into anything. It is just our collective natures to be greedy. Thus we have people living beyond their means, often making them only a few paychecks from poverty. (In a modest neighbourhood i walk though, there sits a Hummer in the driveway. What a waste!)
I don’t know what the government can or should do to help. But i do know that individuals can help themselves greatly. Live within your means! Save 10% of your income. End your own indentured servitude! Break your chains. . . (i know, i speak to deaf and unbelieving ears)
Posted by wolf on Sep 28, 2005 at 4:38 PM Here’s the real, universal atrocity:
A nineteen year-old kid, walking around in a foreign land, sleep deprived and making an hourly adjusted minimum wage, having officially sanctioned power of life and death over complete strangers.
A man killed through atrocious means is just as dead as one killed in his sleep.
That’s war, and when you check, you find pretty much all were started over rich men’s squabbles.
No news at My Lai, nor at Abu Ghraib. It’s War, and it’s still Hell.
Posted by JohnnyGotHisGun on Sep 28, 2005 at 7:13 PM My Lai was part of a continuum, a human contagion, that pre-existed the Vietnam conflict, and is virulent to this day.
‘When we were psychos’?
We’ve always been psychos!
There is no ‘sanity’.Even our best efforts to repair this defect are kooky, weird, and half assed.
If our history tells us nothing, it rightly describes as mad animals, greedy, with no center or even a common goal.
I can see why people blindly grab onto the concept of a mysterious ‘God’...this idea of religion tells us that everything is foolish and evil, but encourages us to keep our immediate circle happy , loved, and well fed.
PS…Is Napalm really orange juice and gasoline mixed together…such seemly innocent substances.
What evil mind thought to bring them together?
I remember the picture of that little Vietnamese girl, running down the road, burning….
Posted by minerva on Sep 28, 2005 at 11:25 PM WOLF say:
——-“Yes war is Hell. Yes horrible things happen in war. Yes the soldiers on the US side also did some unbelievably horrible things. All true. Too true”
............
Therefore at the very least you are admitting Americans are no better than every body else. This is not consistent with your accustomed attitude which automatically grants USA more favoured staus in the credibility stakes.
So your hollow platitudes are also your undoing.
——“But let’s be fair. Let us not forget the atrocities committed by both sides, in every conflict. Let us not think we are *that* different from the other side”...
WE don’t Wolf, we already say there are atrocities committed by all, but you are always trying to pretend that the US atrocites are somehow not as bad, or not even atrocities….Keep it up Wolf, you are driving people from your cause by your own association. If you are no different then get your asses out of other peoples business.
...Or stop pretending you are anything more than tyrants and pirates. The other country examples of Tyrrany are history, yours are ongoing.“Let us not forget that the official policies of the US are much higher than the behaviours actually performed and seen on the battlefield”
...
Bullshit Wolf.
The official POLICY of the USA is the abandonment of the Geneva conventions and the adoption of illegal practices and illegal weapons of warfare as well as the suspension of all human rights treaties, and the deliberate refusal to join or ratify any treatises banning Torture or human rights. Who the hell do you think you are kidding you complete and utter child of weird fantasy.? Have you just awoken from a decade long sleep or something? There are no official rules in the USA which are anything to boast about in regards human rights or freedom even for US citizens, but as for what happens in reality, we have seen already asshole, and it is one of the reasons that the wrold loathes America around about now.
...Does WOLF know that the next round of REALLY bad Abu Ghraib photos and Video’s have just been ORDERED released by a Judge? Here comes another demonstration of the moral bankruptcy of your cause WOLF. Maybe you should go crawl under your rock before we see them, it might not be fun for you in public after we see the next installment of what you are supporting like a dirty little paid agent of LIES.———“let us put this all into some sort of context…. how do we stack up against the Holocost of the Germans? The death marches and comfort girls of the Japanese? The gulags of the Soviets?”
...
Do you really ask or are you attempting a RHetoric question? Well it is not. As Rabbit has before said a full comparison of the present US JUNTA to previous Tyrants and War Mongerers of history will not be possible until it is history, and probably a goodly batch of War Crimes tribunals have been gotten through. But at this point enough data is on the table to suggest that we are looking at the most despicable and evil Junta of Inhuman Criminals in History.
..............................Don’t take Rabbit’s word for it Wolf, we should be seeing some pretty convincing evidence of this over the next year or three as the Total Fiasko comes undone and it is well underway.
.....Wonder how it is going to go if Barbara Olsen really is alive and well as it is sounding? How the hell will they try and spin that?——-“Are we noble? Or are we swine? Or are we merely human?”
..
That depends Wolf, we are all different. Some of us are quite Noble and it shows in our attitudes towards both our enemies as our friends. Some of us are Swine, and this can be seen by our attitudes to our enemies above all…............................. This is why Rabbit does not hesitate to mention you are a Swine….....................we are all in the end humans, but that is not something you fully comprehend.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Sep 30, 2005 at 10:06 AM Wolf, are YOU crazy????
What are you TALKING about - “lite” torture in Gitmo (and Abu Ghraib)!!
Haven’t you seen any of the pictures?? Have you seen any of the WORSE pictures? This wasn’t just naked men standing on boxes (though I’d like to see how you’d like to maintain “stress positions” and to be afraid of falling with a blindfold on… AND TO HAVE ELECTRODES ATTACHED TO VARIOUS PARTS OF YOUR BODY, INCLUDING YOUR PENIS - AND TO HAVE THOSE ELECTRODES TURNED ON.
They weren’t kidding around with those dogs, either. They didn’t just “menace” prisoners, they REALLY attacked them - Seymour Hersh said as much. The newspapers and web sites just didn’t publish (or obtain?) the most graphic of the “attack” and torture pictures.
HAVEN’T YOU HEARD, though, that a lot more of the pictures and movies are going to be released to the public, by a judge’s order, as of today? I’m still waiting for them. I really don’t know what they’ll do about the videos. One, apparently, shows a lot of Iraqi mothers’ boy children being sodomised and screaming in front of the mothers’ eyes…
Another set of pictures shows the rape of a prisoner by a translator.
Anyway. I’ll give you a link to some of the extremer of the OLD pictures, that I came upon today… these aren’t to be found on all the sites with such pictures. Note, especially, the wounds on the legs of the prisoners in the first photos, being crudely stitched, without anaesthetic, and it looks to me, without medical knowledge, on site… (notice the INSANE smile on the part of the girl soldier doing the stitching… look how “fetching” she tries to appear for the camera - talk about psychos!!)
and pay especial attention to the photo of the man in the aftermath of the dog attack… the floor is practically swimming in his blood.
(Note also the prisoner, dead of torture, packed in the ice.. and again, the STUPID, INSANE, SMUG smiles on the part of “our boys and girls”... ooh it makes me furious!! The SMILES are what makes me more furious than anything - I am sure they didn’t smile like that in Vietnam for a start - nothing to smile about there - less of a chicken-shoot, eh?!)
Anyway, talk about psychos!!
... and then talk to me about “lite” torture you oaf.
Posted by Liz on Sep 30, 2005 at 4:53 PM My link didn’t come out: so here it is again:
http://www.antiwar.com/news/?articleid=2444
NOTE IT WELL!!
Posted by Liz on Sep 30, 2005 at 4:54 PM Hi Liz - sorry to have confused you, but i am against torture. I am not against coercion of some prisoners however, especially if it is useful (that is, it leads to getting useful information).
Anyway, i specifically used Gitmo (and then you tacked on Abu Ghraib) and even cited what i thought constituted “lite torture”. So i suppose you could accurately say i am not *always* against using a dog to intimidate a prisoner (see preceeding paragraph) but i am always against having a dog actually attack a prisoner.
I write all of this and add no insults to you. I find such behaviour to be unfortunate, perhaps it can be reduced or eliminated? On the other hand, insulting **ideas** seems perfectly natural and acceptable to me.
Have a nice day.
Posted by wolf on Sep 30, 2005 at 6:55 PM “One, apparently, shows a lot of Iraqi mothers’ boy children being sodomised and screaming in front of the mothers’ eyes…”
While this is obviously reprehensible, i wonder: who would do such a thing? Do you have to be a faggot (i wonder if this could/will lead to more hate crimes against them?)? I mean, while i doubt i could actually rape even a good looking woman, i am sure, as a hetrosexual, i could never rape a boy (gross!!!). This is pretty far off any topic i am really interested in, but it does make me wonder. . .
Posted by wolf on Sep 30, 2005 at 6:59 PM The people who would do such things you TURD are the people who you are defending, you are trying to deny these things, now you have been shown the results of your lies and delusions in most graphic fashion..
..
You….chose your side scumbag…..Rabbit was arguing this stuff with you before and you just wanted to deny it! You have been denying the next round of photos and videos was anything significant, well as Liz so rightly points out, the ship haas docked, your cargo is being unloaded on the dock, Mr WOLF. It will be delivered to you , on this site no doubt , in the near future.
. Rabbit can see the twisting and wriggling you no do when shown the evidence of your own debauchery of cause. Your cause is debauched. It is not necessary for everybody to be debauched by war. It comes of extreme hatred or extreme HUBRIS. Guess which one we are seeing in eveidence in Guantanamo any Abu ghraib and all the lesser known institutions of torture and murder..
Whe you get to HELL, WOLF you will find a bunk with your name on it, I promise. It is being engraved as we speak by those people you are condemning to HELL for their short stay on Earth. You have supported the JUNTA and its actions right from the start, the web is full of your garbage. You cannot and will not ever be able to step back from the consequences of your beliefs. By arguing with good and honest people as you have done, you have placed a mark upon your head, so to speak. Ain’t no going back for you Wolf. Your pigeons are coming home to roost.
. How do you feel about Tom Delay, Wolf?.
. Is it of any concern that Rove may be about to be Spayed? and that the rest of the shithouse is caving in faster than you can say PASS THE JACK DANIELS?
. You are so stuffed Wolf. Stick around for the fun won’t you.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 3, 2005 at 10:25 AM OH and WOLF what do you know about getting information in any way?
. The simple fact is that torture has been historically proven to be the most innefective means of obtaining “RELIABLE” information.
. Reliable information, becomes an oxymoron when torture is involved.
. Without fail, anybody, with very few exceptions quickly tries to find out what it is the torturer wants to hear and tell him this. Seldom does this achieve the desired end, that of avoiding torture, so the torture is increased. It is inevitable that the “victim” will contradict himself and others under such conditions and that the more the torture is increased the more contradictions and mistakes will enter the system.
. How does Raping a child in front of it’s mother pass for you? Maybe the father was wanted for questioning about a bomb? Maybe he was just a mistaken spelling by some army clerk? If you torture him you are going to have to do a hell of lot of torturing only to find out he was just the wrong guy all along>
That is what happens WOLF they are torturing many and then releasing them without charge, in each case destroying the lives of those “INNOCENT MEN”, never releasing them from the watchful eye of vengeful government.
. If the torture was any use you F**KING BOZO then how could anybody be tortured, and they were, and not give up all the secrets to convict themselves? Kind of makes the thing seem a bit farcical?
. .
Out of the 20,000 people being held at any one time, does Wolf know how many have been actually tried with anything?Historically torture has been used by invading armies, especially when trying to repress a population. It is used to demoralise the people, so it is always practised on a wide scale, or not at all. It is never likely that “pockets” of torturers can operate without being found and dealt with very fast.
. The pattern is as it is appearing to be the case in American Torture Camps, widespread and done for little useful purpose other than to hurt the target population. There is an inevitable and to them desirable side effect that the enemy is dehumanised in the eyes of the invading soldiers and the soldiers are de-humanised in the process.
. The torture becomes increasingly personal and increasingly frenzied as the humanity is drained from the soul of the perpetrators.
. Rabbit and you all know this to be true, ask in your heart.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 3, 2005 at 10:42 AM CRIKEY
.
Rabbit has inadvertantly closed a few threads in his time, but what happened?.....................Rabbit is not an ex Stasi or KGB torturer, he only knows these things as the truth, not because he ever tortured anyone…..................Guys, guys?....where did we go?
.I know WOLF, cause you are on another thread, it came as a shock when you thought about it like this didn’t it?..
. If this is the begginning of seeing the light Wolf, Rabbit salutes you, well done.
. The truth can hurt.
. Nobody ever promised you a Rose Garden. Right now it is a stinking pile of shit actually. But if we can recognise it for what it is, we can work with it and build ourselves the best Rose Garden you ever imagined.
. Just re-arranging the pile of shit and calling it a nice bunch of roses alone is not going to do it.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 5, 2005 at 1:10 AM One small point in retrospect.
. Wolf it seems unlikely that the soldiers raping boys are heterosexuals carrying out orders, if you were implying anybody thought this. Even Liberals can figure out that homosexual men would rape boys, and there are such or even bisexuals in the Army.
. There are also no doubt plenty of Trisexuals.
. They will try anything.
..
The point is, a humanely administered and in control military would never allow any such treatment to get beyond a few very isolated incidents. That is explainable and to be expected. We have long since crossed the point where the most deluded can seriously claim this is a few isolated incidents. That is how the first revelations were presnetd and spun from the outset. Like I said we have crossed the time when that excuse could convince even your senate.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 5, 2005 at 1:17 AM As tragic as this story is, it refers only to the post-invasion ground battles, and doesn’t speak to the vast majority of the crimes committed in the semantically absurd “War on Terror” or the underlying drivers.
Recall that Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney, National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, Secretary of State Colin Powell, Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, and White House press secretaries Ari Fleischer and Scott McClellan “… stated unequivocally that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction (or was trying to produce or obtain them), links to Al Qaeda, or both. This concerted effort was the underpinning of the Bush administration’s case for war.” (http://www.publicintegrity.org/WarCard/).
According to http://www.publicintegrity.org/default.aspx, “President George W. Bush and seven of his administration’s top officials, including Vice President Dick Cheney, National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice, and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, made at least 935 false statements in the two years following September 11, 2001, about the national security threat posed by Saddam Hussein’s Iraq.”
The US-led invasion of Iraq (51 days before a presidential election), was an illegal act that contravened the UN charter. So the US government has made its soldiers the “unlawful combatants”.
There were no WMDs—until the US invaded, that is. The US made its soldiers accomplices in the mass murder of civilians by deploying WMDs in the form of depleted uranium (“DU”), Napalm-like Mark77 fire bombs, white phosphorous, carpet bombing, land mines, Daisy cutters and Thermobaric bombs. As reported by William Blum in “Rogue State”, the US used mustard gas, nerve gas, and other burning chemicals in the major offensive upon Fallujah. It allegedly used developing weaponry (directed energy and high-powered microwave technology), and, in Afghanistan, allegedly used non-depleted uranium in “bunker busters”. DU, incidentally, has a half-life of the age of this earth, so all creatures traveling in Iraq—effectively to the end of time—risk radiation poisoning.
The US claims it is fighting terrorism. The FBI’s definition of terrorism is “The unlawful use of force or violence against persons or property to intimidate or coerce a Government, the civilian population, or any segment thereof, in furtherance of political or social objectives.” This is precisely what it has done with its illegal invasion and is doing with its occupation of Iraq—committing acts of (state-sponsored) terrorism.
A World Tribunal on Iraq found that “The US-led invasion and occupation of Iraq involved the following [among others]: … economic, social and environmental devastation of Iraq; a huge death toll (100,000 civilian deaths) and 60,000 Iraqis in custody; illegal privatization and appropriation of major slabs of the Iraqi economy; occupier-imposed laws…”
Now for the really frightening part …
Admiral Fallon, former Commander of the U.S. Central Command, the man who famously said that an attack on Iran would “not happen on my watch”, was just “retired”. He is no longer on the watch.No serious grounds exist for making the argument that our neoimperialism is for national or patriotic reasons. It is for private gain. As Noam Chomsky said, “The Government is the shadow the Corporations cast over society. The essence of Corporate propaganda is to direct the peoples anger towards the shadow rather than towards the Substance”. So let’s assume that Bush and Cheney, in the best of all worlds, are soon removed from office or exit peacefully next January. The military industrial complex and big oil remain.
Posted by nyvegan on Mar 19, 2008 at 4:17 AM Page 1 of 1 pages -
register a new account »Posting Security
Also by Michael Atkinson
- Always Look on the Bright Side of Genocide
When did the Holocaust become morally ambiguous? - A Massacre in 3/4 Time
Waltz with Bashir is hallucinatory, relentless, and amazing. - Moore Than You or Me
Slacker Uprising offers nothing new, but it will be worth something if it affects November's election - Errol Morris’ Myopia
- Iraq: Mismanagement or Mass Murder?
No End in Sight explores how we got into Iraq and what screw-ups have made the situation spiral out of control - Iraq on the Big Screen
Popular Discussions
- The 9/11 Faith Movement
Many Americans believe 9/11 was a conspiracy by the U.S. government
1979 posts since Jul 11 06 - What’s the 411 on 9/11?
891 posts since Dec 21 05 - Democrats: It’s the War
659 posts since Nov 1 05 - Was the Presidential Election Stolen?
462 posts since Jun 19 06 - A Fundamental History Lesson
The rise of National Socialism proved politics and religion don't mix
427 posts since Oct 10 05
© 2005 In These Times | Reprint Policy | Privacy Policy | Powered by Expression Engine | RSS Feeds
