Reckoning with the God Squad

No bull, Bun.

What is your proof, exactly?  I believe it’s fine to speculate and hypothecize, but to so confidently proclaim things about someone with no real proof, like I’m related to Roger, or I complained to ITT is unfair. 

If ITT mistakenly told you I contacted them, then I finally do have a reason to contact them for the first time.

Natalie,
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You have only now, after more than a month of Rabbit referring to you as one of the culprits who attempted to shut Rabbit down. It is a bit stale to now, finally to put up the sort of resistance you should have done at the time.
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As for the Helbig naming, something similar bot with more nuance will be offerred shortly.
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The reasons I called you on this, at the time, you may recall, are quite telling, and while they prove nothing, they do beat a very distinct path to your door. If at this stage it was not the case, you have left it a bit late to protest.....The reasons are as follows.
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Rabbit was engaged in in a somewhat spiteful, both sides, debate with Roger Ramjet. You were acting as his deputy, despite claiming neutrality. Let us not start denials of partisanship at this stage, please, we have been there and it is admitted by your self. Rabbit had finally managed to stump both Roger and yourself by posting the WIKIPEDIA entry about International Resolutions.
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Gone,both gone like the wind for days. At this alte stage of the game, (then) Rabbit had also posted on five more threads on ITT.
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On three of these Rbbit was more rude to a few others, with not quite as much justification, though some. One of these people was WTH as a matter of fact. Another thread which had seen Rabbit was The Unnatural Disaster thread, where you had actually posted at that time also. On this thread Rabbit was loving and kind and had not actually abused anyone. The exception to the other threads was only that Rabbit mentioned the Radioactive Wounds of War thread and DU as an iddue.
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You were what’s more, also on another of the threads, but no DU mentioned there..
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When the ban on Rabbit came it saw my posts removed from the Radioactive Wounds of War thread, and the Unnatural Disaster thread, simultaneously. The site moderators pull people based on more than one complaint, by the way, Roger could not have done it alone.
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Then, almost immediately you and Roger both jumped back onto the Radioactive Wounds of War thread and pretended I had never existed, and so far pinned you both to the wall on the DU issue.
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Lo and Behold, the Ghost of Rabbit appeared spake unto you again. Both you and Roger proceeded to claim Rabbit had been banned and made direct claims that I had threatened and been excessively abusive. Interestingly at that point while others were writing and fighting for Rabbit’s rights, you two were Shilling flat out on the DU thread and slandering Rabbit.
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Rabbit’s posts were quickly returned on the Unnatural Disasters thread, and eventually on the DU thread. By this time you and Ramjet had been bottled up a couple more times and the history of the DU thread stands as testimony to the rest.
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The point to remember is that after having been subjected to scrutiny Rabbit was exonerated. Not Guilty Rabbit.
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If you can give a logical explanation which explains the above facts, yet somehow excludes your involvment in dirty tricks, let’s hear it.
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This is the gross evidence used but there are a number of more circumstantial points which helped things to fall into place.
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ITT are generally quite reticent and have not contacted me except to acknowledge details of their policy. 
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Rabbit would also point out thyat Pale Rider sufferred a similar fate when he first confronted you both.
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The truth if it be much different to this scenario, would have best been established when you were first asked for truth. As said this is very late in the game to challenge something which has already clearly been a serious threat to your credibility for a while. You have been playing for keeps Nat, if you could have successfully challenged these facts why would you have waited so long?
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Now be asurred that it is not my intention to use the DU thread to cause you any further discomfort. In the interests of truth, if there is a problem with the above “assumptions”, of mine, then let us get them out of the way, otherwise let us move forward in debate.  Rabbit has only ever been straight up with you. With this Hopper, what you see is what you get.
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Rabbit does not wish to be unfair, especially to his beloved princess of darkness, but he is at this point a suspicious Rabbit, and with reason. Rabbit does have a few friends and you have met some, they actually agree about you, (They don’t like you, though Rabbit does)
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You are not only going to have to convinve Rabbit but they too might have some queries yet.
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But, to a Light Warrior Rabbit, truth is more important than being right, so you are welcome to give me truth. Beware the lie, for as Rabbit had to teach his teenage son yesterday, to admit a mistake is relatively easy compared to having to admit a lie about a mistake..

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The first time you lie you can have for free, after that, make sure your answer is the one you intend to stick to.
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If you are not Natalie Helbig, then it will be easy for you to prove it, and it can be done privately if you wish. Rabbit would on his honour never say anything on thread but that he now believes you.
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It is BTW maybe only a co-incidence but there is a rather specific pattern of postings between you and Roger yet. You are on this site simultaneously after days or weeks absence even yet.
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Proves nothing on its own, but it sure doesn’t detract from the overall impression.
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Busy Rabbit day making boats, but this thread will be on and off loolked at all day.
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See Rabbit loves Batty Natty, she is nice when she’s Chatty, Rabbit is not being Catty..........hee...hee...........................^^........................... ...

Rabbit says : “Beware the lie, for as Rabbit had to teach his teenage son yesterday, to admit a mistake is relatively easy compared to having to admit a lie about a mistake.. The first time you lie you can have for free, after that, make sure your answer is the one you intend to stick to. “

Good advice for everyone. Go forth and sin no more.

PS. The poetry is nice.

“ See Rabbit loves Batty Natty, she is nice when she’s Chatty, Rabbit is not being Catty. “

Brings a tear to my eye.

.. on a technical note .. it would seem that our gracious ITT hosts mhave made some formatting adjustments to the comments we post .. i.e. a one line space is a one line space .. back to reality .. but as always brief is best ..

Rabbit noticed that, but didn’t want to scare it away.  Nice little electrons,....... be good to us.................David have you got any thing which clearlt shows the actual times taken for the buidings to collapse? Start to finish of the actual collapse?

Some of the FACTS which Rabbit considers crucial to forming any opinions about how the WTC’s collapsed.

.1.Each WTC building collapse occurred at virtually free-fall speed (approximately 10 seconds or less).  Actually one was 8.7 seconds I think, but am seeking confirmation.

2.Each building collapsed, for the most part, into its own footprint.

3.Virtually all the concrete (an estimated 100,000 tons in each tower) on every floor was pulverized into a very fine dust, a phenomenon that requires enormous energy and could not be caused by gravity alone ("…workers can’t even find concrete. ‘It’s all dust,’ [the official] said").

4.Dust exploded horizontally for a couple hundred feet, as did debris, at the beginning of each tower’s collapse.

5.Collapses were total, leaving none of the massive core columns sticking up hundreds of feet into the air.

6.The steel beams and columns came down in sections under 30 feet long and had no signs of “softening”; there was little left but shorn sections of steel and a few bits of concrete.

7.Photos and videos of the collapses all show “demolition waves,” meaning “confluent rows of small explosions” along floors (blast sequences).

8.According to many witnesses, explosions occurred within the buildings.

9.Each collapse had detectable seismic vibrations suggestive of underground explosions, similar to the 2.3 earthquake magnitude from a demolition like the Seattle Kingdome

10.Each collapse produced molten steel identical to that generated by explosives, resulting in “hot spots” that persisted for months (the two hottest spots at WTC-2 and WTC-7 were approximately 1,350o F five days after being continuously flooded with water, a temperature high enough to melt aluminium
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Points can be discussed via their numbers if anyone desires, for brevity.

Rabbit is a Pyrotechnician Rabbit and Welder/Engineer enough to know cerain things in those ten points are absolute proof that expl*siv*s were used to bring down all three WTCs.

Natty now no timey to whitey, must go workey, but Natty angwee with wabby, wong on so many wevvels.

Natty wuv wabby, still yet.

Rabbit may be wrong about some of his speculation, but on many levels? We shall see.

Rabbit knows you love him.

What now the Nat is being condescending? Rabbit reaches a paw of equality down to Nat, who now calls him a baby?

Don’t be flip. We are big Rabbits and Girls.

The power is not in the words, but in the truth. The rest is just art........or not.

What, no WB available out west down under?  No baby talk condescension intended, just a reference to a certain bunny’s arch rival. You earlier wrote:

“You have only now, after more than a month of Rabbit referring to you as one of the culprits who attempted to shut Rabbit down. It is a bit stale to now, finally to put up the sort of resistance you should have done at the time.”

Rabbit, to respond to every twist and turn you present, or in this case invent, I’d be forced to call in sick every other day.  I wasn’t even sure if you were serious about it.  But even if I HAD “resisted”, what good would have come of it?  I did forcefully and promptly protest your insistence on manufacturing my family ties with Roger, still yet to absolutely no avail. 

“As for the Helbig naming, something similar bot with more nuance will be offerred shortly.”

Ah, suspense.  The oldest marketing trick in the book.  Do you have an agreement with ITT to help prolong interest in their site?  Do disclose.

“The reasons I called you on this, at the time, you may recall, are quite telling, and while they PROVE NOTHING, they do beat a very distinct path to your door. If at this stage it was not the case, you have left it a bit late to protest.....The reasons are as follows.”

“Rabbit was engaged in in a somewhat spiteful, both sides, debate with Roger Ramjet. You were acting as his deputy, despite claiming neutrality. Let us not start denials of partisanship at this stage, please, we have been there and it is admitted by your self. Rabbit had finally managed to stump both Roger and yourself by posting the WIKIPEDIA entry about International Resolutions.”

I simply agreed with Roger, AFTER doing my OWN research, that while DU certainly is not as benign as water, the picture painted by the article “Radioactive Wounds of War” is unrealistic, and preys on our natural fears of anything “radioactive”.  The horrific claims by Rokke, who was quoted in the article, and others of like mind and constant association, such as Lauren Moret, are over the top.  They play directly into our enemy’s hands and poison the debate.  There WAS no stumping.  I responded to your WIKIPEDIA link, pointing out that these particular resolutions by a U.N. subcommittee are not binding, and are the product of hatred and jealousy of America.  If all such resolutions were followed, we would be required to destroy every weapon in our arsenal, and the population of Israel would be forced to devolve into sea dwelling creatures.

“Gone,both gone like the wind for days. At this alte stage of the game, (then) Rabbit had also posted on five more threads on ITT.”

As it happens, I was on a home-based vacation the week I initially (and politely) offered my opinion on the relative dangers of DU.  Any “gone-ness” was only due to the fact that the vacation ended.  Sorry to disappoint, but it’s no more mysterious than that.

“On three of these Rbbit was more rude to a few others, with not quite as much justification, though some. One of these people was WTH as a matter of fact. Another thread which had seen Rabbit was The Unnatural Disaster thread, where you had actually posted at that time also. On this thread Rabbit was loving and kind and had not actually abused anyone. The exception to the other threads was only that Rabbit mentioned the Radioactive Wounds of War thread and DU as an iddue.”

I’m sorry, you’re totally losing me here.  Believe me, your suspicions have absolutely nothing to do with me, and I doubt any others. 

“When the ban on Rabbit came it saw my posts removed from the Radioactive Wounds of War thread, and the Unnatural Disaster thread, simultaneously. The site moderators pull people based on more than one complaint, by the way, Roger could not have done it alone.”

continued.......

pg. 2 (sorry, David, this is not brief)

You asked me to give evidence for my belief that flight 93 was forced down by the actions of the passengers, and I provided it.  Did the moderators TELL you that their policy demands more than one complaint, or are you just assuming it?  Or did they simply say something generic like “We’ve received complaints”?  If there WAS more than one complaint, one of the additional didn’t come from me, as much as you want to believe it did.

“Then, almost immediately you and Roger both jumped back onto the Radioactive Wounds of War thread and pretended I had never existed, and so far pinned you both to the wall on the DU issue.

Coincidence, I assure you, and I dissent on the pinning claim.  But as I’ve asked you before, even if all WAS as you imagine, how does that prevent you from simply presenting evidence to support your contentions?  Why all the wasted time and space speculating on who I might be and who I might be associated with? 

“Lo and Behold, the Ghost of Rabbit appeared spake unto you again. Both you and Roger proceeded to claim Rabbit had been banned and made direct claims that I had threatened and been excessively abusive. Interestingly at that point while others were writing and fighting for Rabbit’s rights, you two were Shilling flat out on the DU thread and slandering Rabbit.”

I don’t recall claiming you had been banned.  Please check the record and correct me if I’m wrong.  I certainly DID express my opinion that your abusive, insulting, and yes threatening words for me and others were borne of your inability to effectively defend your position.  Slandering?  The pot cries wolf.  Must I list all the insults?  Must I list all the threats?  I’m very tired.

“Rabbit’s posts were quickly returned on the Unnatural Disasters thread, and eventually on the DU thread. By this time you and Ramjet had been bottled up a couple more times and the history of the DU thread stands as testimony to the rest.”

Your opinion and you’re entitled to it.  For some fuzzy, far off reason, I was under the impression I was entitled to mine.

“The point to remember is that after having been subjected to scrutiny Rabbit was exonerated. Not Guilty Rabbit.”

You know it never even occurred to me that your words might be cause for banishment.  But after I read that you were banned, (I believe the announcement was on another thread), I thought yeah, he shouldn’t be able to say things like that if they do indeed have such “terms of service” policies.  I’m unable to agree or disagree with your verdict, since I have no idea exactly what ITT’s policies state.  I guess they might be available on the site somewhere, or would be provided if requested.  But I really don’t much care.  I’d rather simply address whatever you have to say—insults, accusations and threats included.  They tell a story all their own.

“If you can give a logical explanation which explains the above facts, yet somehow excludes your involvment in dirty tricks, let’s hear it.”

Umm....YOU’RE the one who made all this up in your head.  That makes you the best qualified to explain it. 

“This is the gross evidence used but there are a number of more circumstantial points which helped things to fall into place.”

Sherlock, Columbo and Matlock got nuthin on you!!  Now perhaps if you were able to type “Natalie Helbig” and “depleted uranium” (don’t forget the quotes) into Google and get anything back other than your own writings on ITT, you might start to have a case.

“ITT are generally quite reticent and have not contacted me except to acknowledge details of their policy.”

Thank you for admitting you have no proof that I complained about you.  Thank you for making me read all the way to the bottom to see it.  You’re a marketing genius, you wascally wabbit from Oz!

Natalie write : “ ... if they do indeed have such “terms of service” policies.  I’m unable to agree or disagree with your verdict, since I have no idea exactly what ITT’s policies state.  I guess they might be available on the site somewhere, or would be provided if requested. “

Does anyone know if they do have policies? I looked for information on the site but never found anything other than “ Please be respectful in your comments and try to remain on-topic. “

Natalie, I got the Elmer Fudd reference right away (my child like nature, hehe). Made me laugh. In fact, I made a reference, elswhere, that even though Wile E. Coyoyte was a super genius he never caught the Road Runner. So be warned Natalie, hunting wabbits is twicky ...

“ Elmer’s role .. that of would-be hunter, dupe and foil for Bugs, would remain his main role forever after and although Bugs Bunny was called upon to outwit many more worthy opponents, Elmer somehow remained Bugs’ classic nemesis, despite (or because of) his legendary gullibility, small size, short temper, and shorter attention span. Somehow knowing, not only that Elmer would lose, but knowing how he would lose, made the confrontation, counterintuitively, more delicious. “
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elmer_Fudd

Since this thread is descending into the faintly risible, let me insert this lame joke I heard recently:

Q:  How many free market ideologues does it take to change a light bulb?

A:  Null.  They just sit in the dark and wait for an invisible hand to change it for them.

Q. How many government bureaucrats does it take to change a light bulb?

A) None.

1) it isn’t in their union contract
2) that’s someone else’s job
3) I’m on my lunch break

Wrong.

It takes the entire bureau, working weeks of over-time to complete the necessary paperwork to file a report in which the light bulb is changed into a ‘standardized area illumination device, IDN348992-B/H485mod3a(see attached file).’

How many Corp.Execs?

Two.  One to make drinks and one to tell his assistant to tell his secretary to call an electrician.

Oh. Yes. Getting back on thread.

An Evangelical Christian changes a light bulb by asking it to accept Jesus Christ as its personal Lord and Savior.

Natalie Rabbit has always attempted to keep the debate as focussed and relevant as possible. It is yourself and Roger who introduced all the twists and turns, both directly and by avoiding straight answers to straight questions. That is history and awaits any appraisals on the relevant thread.

The first outing of Ramjet was of utmost importance in showing that a known Shill for the Pentagon lies was involved. At that point had you been open minded you would have read all the references given by people. Rabbit just did so last night, went through all the refs and sources given in just the first two pages, and Natalie there is no way anyone could have emerged after that with anything but a conviction that so called Depleted Uranium was an unnaceptable way to wage war.

That is important when releated to your claims of having tried to establish the truth. At the very least there had to be sufficient reasons to employ proper tersting of all soldiers, even this you have resisted.

Since you cannot even do this much for your troops, please stop coming off with ridiculous lines like this.

“play directly into our enemy’s hands and poison the debate”

By attacking Nations for no justifiable reason, by using the sort of inhumane weapons we are discussing, you are playing directly into your enemies hands. Has it escpaped Natalies notice that even the CIA admits that the Iraq war has been the most powerful recruiting toll ever given the Extremists who were once such a small minority. Evreything the USA has done on an international stage the last three years at least has increased the danger to Americans and really the whole world.

The abuses at the US torture camps is causing far more anger and resentment among not only your enemies but among what fgew allies you still possess as well. Get real you silly bird. I suppose you feel the Judge who ordered the last batch of videos and Photos unsealed was playing into your enemies’ hands?

Well he was not. You played into your enemies’ hands by doing these things in the first place, you cannot complain when others make your crimes known that it is they who have erred. To suggest this is how it should be is in itself a dusqualifier of you as a person who can be believed.

You avoided the Wikipedia source and it’s message for a long time actually. You then tried to talk your way around it as you do now. The source was merely one of those offerred to show why the use of Nuclear Waste, Depleted Uranium was banned by all civilised nations. The only exceptions now being USA and Britain.  Nat they did establish the nature of this as a WAR CRIME.  You are re-writing history a bit here but Rabbit refers any doubters to the thread. You see I will not be using any more of this thread to deal with what amounts only to “Filler’ or ‘Smoke and Mirrors’ when the real issues we had reached was 911, and that was why you came here Nat. Rabbit said already he would drop all the old stuff and begin anew if you wished. Now beyond this brief reply, which is all it is, not intended as a challenge. Natalie is hereby permitted by Rabbit, to be anybody she wants and Rabbit will goo along with it for now. It was suggested that you proved Rabbit wrong on your name, it should be so easy after all. It was only ever presented as a theory and you have never seriously challenged it, that doesn’t make abbit a liar, merely wrong. All I need is proof to admit it. But you are being given the benefit of the doubt........

Natalie says:

“If all such resolutions were followed, we would be required to destroy every weapon in our arsenal, and the population of Israel would be forced to devolve into sea dwelling creatures.”

....Let us not get hysterical please, this is bunk and you know it.  These resolutions are very specific and there is more than just these UN Resolutions which establish the world opinion on DU. There are a lot more than the three people you and Roger keep on trying to discredit who are involved in the push against DEPLETED URANIUM weapons. The people outnumber the PRO Depleted Uranium crown by thousands to one, which is what makes your small pickings at individuals so laughable.

Natalie you gave a story about a woman who made certain claims. Rabbit pointed out it was not of the standard of evidence sceptical people would normally accept. This whilst accepting your ‘eveidence’ at face value. Rabbit then added some more FACTS extremely well presented which together with your facts actually damaged the official story of 911, which is what I promised to do afetr all.

Try not to waste time accusing Rabbit of disseminating. Rabbit is in fact a very goal oriented Rabbit who while not afraid of detailed analysis, is more inclined to strike as direct a path to the objective as is possible. You get no free opinions with Rabbit. I will pay for mine if required and you will be expected to pay for yours.

Facts are the currency.

Yes the moderators told Rabbit multiple complaints are needed, if it was an assumption I would have said so. They never told me they had recieved complaints, you and Roger did..............That is one of the reasons I knew it was you.  ITT took ages to answer and the posts were all back up before I heard from them................Now think about that, and stop being silly. Rabbit is not concerned.  Nat there were only two threads pulled, you were the only thing they had in common.

Ha Ha Hee Hee Ho Ho

Thank you to Luminous Beauty and Jay for lightening the mood.

New Word for the Day : posted for the benefit of those who did not know what it meant (me) and those to lazy to look it up :

risible

1. Relating to laughter or used in eliciting laughter.
2. Eliciting laughter; ludicrous.
3. Capable of laughing or inclined to laugh.

Thank you Luminous Beauty.

oops....Rabbit meant you and DU were the only things they had in common.

Now if you are not connected to Roger you have to realise that someone was pulling monkey tricks, and what about Pale Rider? the same thing happened and he was very polite. But his info was dynamite, and somebody didn’t want it being said. Now how can you feel good about supporting somebody who is clearly pulling such dishonest tricks if you are yourself honest?  Rabbit even admitted whenever he knew other posters, before being accused, which was silly since they were admitted Rabbit friends, two were anyway.  Rabbit does not want to believe Nat complained about him at all.  It is however necessary for Nat to consider the consequences of the complaints which were certainly made by someone about the Unnatural Disaster thread, thus making you look like the culprit.  Besides which it must be remembered that there was obviously nothing to complain about after all, Rabbit - Not Guilty.....

The co-incidence of your near simultaneous postings has actually been a common feature since early in the thread. Also the tag teaming when one or the other was confronted with an unavoidable obstacle......................Rabbit does not believe that there is any such thing as co-incidence except as an observed occurrence.  Things happen in CO-Incidence, there is always a reason. We may not always know that reason.

Rabbit has speculated upon one reason for the co-incidences, you say these do not correspond with truth. Maybe so. It is of no consequence really. You have been flogged dear girl, none would disagree upon reading the DU thread, but you can claim that as a victory if it feels better. GWB claims Iraq as a Victory after all.

If you are all rabbit claimed Nat, eg: a Shill, that does not stop you presenting any evidence to support your claims. It does however affect the way in which others will view you and your opinions. Your evidence was always examined by others and it was always found wanting. As in the case of the flight 93 above the source often proved only that some fact you claimed had been reported somewhere. Even if it established the FACT, this did not at any point build a case for the continued use of Nuclear Waste as a Weapon. We are here examining FACTS and how to relate these to 911. Proving a Fact as such is only a start, you must use that Fact, in league with other Facts to establish a credible theory. 

It is also important to remember that most of us are sophisticated enough to realise the importance of “Internet Propaganda” and just how much resources are currently being expended to reduce the amount of open discussion and orderly debate about important issues. So if you merely say that such idea’s as Shills and Disinfo agents is crazy you will be demonstrating that you have something to hide. Google it anybody who doesn’t understand.

To be taken seriously you need to admit that Ramjet is one, he is long since ID’d, years ago. You have seen the evidence of it, and equally so if you were not one who complained about either I or Pale Rider. If you can admit this but still say you were acting independantly Rabbit will extend the benefit of the doubt even further.

You didn’t use the word Banned, the exact post will be quoted later when Rabbit has had time to check, and if wrong I will say so too.

“abusive, insulting, and yes threatening words for me and others were borne of your inability to effectively defend your position”

...Natalie the thread stands yet and any can see that Rabbit’s words were justifiably harsh but as far as Flaming on the net goes, mild in all but their effectiveness.  Besides that those who know Rabbit know he is none of the things you accuse him of. Others have actually been more directly abusive of both you and Roger, they just swore at you and ignored you henceforth.

“But after I read that you were banned, (I believe the announcement was on another thread), I thought yeah, he shouldn’t be able to say things like that if they do indeed have such “terms of service” policies.”

The announcement was withdrawn, reminder. You were not abused or threatened, how decietful a thing to say, this accusation especially upsets Rabbit, who never makes threats. Rabbit knows that a threat is either empty or a warning which need not be given if it is serious.

ITT has a policy and it can be read just to the right of where you write. Respect is given freely, it can be lost though, remember this.

Natalie, Rabbit never claimed he could prove you were anything, I hope not, but has merely speculated, openly, and allowed you to do the rest. You know who Rabbit is and you can even see his picture. Rabbit only knows that you have made a point of pretending to be someone you are not and then allowed a very logical case for your identity to be built, largely unchallenged. You did in fact at first congratulate Bunny on finding out who you were at the time, and while this could be claimed as irony, you did not seriously try to deny it and you allowed the following posts to work against you when you could always have proven it was not true. You could have regained huge credibility for yourself and felt at least that you had damaged Rabbit’s at any time, for half that thread and yet didn’t?  Thanks for the handicap babe, but I didn’t need it honestly.

Now let us please deal with any more of this in private e-mail, rather than boring our friends further. This is the sort of thing that only happens when somebody is refusing to stick to honest and fair debating.  Rabbit made some considered points about 911 and has answered your sources with things which deserve attention from Rabbit’s favorite Queen of Darkness.

Sorry David and Luminous Beauty. Rabbit is still in awe of Hynek’s words. New perspectives and all.

Now Can we talk about 911 and how those with a Faith based argument use it to justify making war on entire nations?

How many women with PMS does it take to change a lightbulb?

lb,

I stand corrected

:)

“ Now Can we talk about 911 and how those with a Faith based argument use it to justify making war on entire nations? “

Rabbit has brought the thread back full circle.

“ Fundamentalist bullies cannot be appeased. they must be confronted. “

So is it possible that Rabbit could have some feedback from any who feel the official 911 has some credibility, when the above ten point Rabbit post is taken into account. I’ve been waiting for the chance to prove any of those contentions.

This is important to any who wish to argue that what the USA is doing in it’s War on Terror. There are those of us who think of it as a War of Terror and one of the crucial cases upon which we have formed this opinion, is that the official story of 911 does not stand ANY scrutiny, it ignores a whole herd of PINK ELEPHANTS in the living room at it’s best and is provably wrong, in FACT, as well as scientific analysis.

Thye whole lie is unravelling as we speak. There are court cases and indigtments being handed down now which will lead to very serious questions being raised as well as some very shocking answers being found.

How about a free book, Folks?

A little education never hurt the effort of trying to converge on a more objective version of reality.

http://gangsofamerica.com/read.html

Rabbit’s wonky computer now begins the task of downloading the free book. Thanks Whit.

If it was the flash computer at home it would have already done it and made Rabbit a cup of coffee. Rabbit must make his own coffee here to.

Damn has the God Squad caved in now we’re town to Facts?

Among my other varied reading, I’m re-reading “Crossing the Rubicon” to re-consider info and freshen up my thinking.

Jay, if you attempt this 600 page read, you will feel compelled to dimiss this guy as a “comspiracy wing-nut” (if I recall correctly your term).  However, I hope you give it a shot.  He has 60 pages of appendix, endnotes, and references.  While it is not recommended that you ‘believe’ or ‘agree’ blindly with any conclusions, it is recommended that you check out the information made available with an open but critical mind, consider its implications, analyze it for yourself, and draw you own conclusions.  The book is a rich source of referenced information, and presents a very wide and deep overview of our current predicament… for your humble consideration.

Rabbit re-posts this since it is relatively short and deserved mopre than the dustbin of history on this thread,..........Rabbit stamps angry foot!

Some of the FACTS which Rabbit considers crucial to forming any opinions about how the WTC’s collapsed.

.1.Each WTC building collapse occurred at virtually free-fall speed (approximately 10 seconds or less).  Actually one was 8.7 seconds I think, but am seeking confirmation.

2.Each building collapsed, for the most part, into its own footprint.

3.Virtually all the concrete (an estimated 100,000 tons in each tower) on every floor was pulverized into a very fine dust, a phenomenon that requires enormous energy and could not be caused by gravity alone ("…workers can’t even find concrete. ‘It’s all dust,’ [the official] said").

4.Dust exploded horizontally for a couple hundred feet, as did debris, at the beginning of each tower’s collapse.

5.Collapses were total, leaving none of the massive core columns sticking up hundreds of feet into the air.

6.The steel beams and columns came down in sections under 30 feet long and had no signs of “softening”; there was little left but shorn sections of steel and a few bits of concrete.

7.Photos and videos of the collapses all show “demolition waves,” meaning “confluent rows of small explosions” along floors (blast sequences).

8.According to many witnesses, explosions occurred within the buildings.

9.Each collapse had detectable seismic vibrations suggestive of underground explosions, similar to the 2.3 earthquake magnitude from a demolition like the Seattle Kingdome

10.Each collapse produced molten steel identical to that generated by explosives, resulting in “hot spots” that persisted for months (the two hottest spots at WTC-2 and WTC-7 were approximately 1,350o F five days after being continuously flooded with water, a temperature high enough to melt aluminium

Rabbit is a Pyrotechnician Rabbit and Welder/Engineer enough to know cerain things in those ten points are absolute proof that expl*siv*s were used to bring down all three WTCs.

If that does not get the God Squad to pay attention..................GOD IS AN ASSHOLE..........Jesus was a BUM......So was Rabbit once incidentally....

GOD does not care about anybody at all more than anybody else.  Then.  Try and censor that.

Had to share this opinion from :

http://www.yhwh.com/

Jesus was a loser and a coward

It’s time the truth be told.  Jesus was a loser and a coward, it’s just that plain and simple.  Just listen to this tripe:

Mt 5:38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’

39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also.

44 But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,

45 that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous.

46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that?

47 And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?

48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Can you believe this coward?  This is shameful, really.  And very un-Christian.

Here’s what a real Christian does:

Sends their little boys and girls into a military to defend our Nation and way of life.
Supports a war on terrorism, to hunt out the evil scum and kill them.
Prays God will help the soldiers to find and kill all the enemy, as quickly as possible.

Frankly, I’m not sure these horrible passages in Matthew are even real.  (Well, ok, they’re in the other Gospels too, but they probably just copied from each other.  Doesn’t mean a thing.) I think they were probably put there by Satan to try to weaken us, and our true Christian resolve.

.. continued ..

Just think if we had actually been practicing what this coward preached for these last 2000 years.  No crusades (where the Real Church killed millions of the infidel Muslims, praise God.) No Lutheran sponsored Holocaust.  The Roman empire would have turned into a peace-loving state when Constantine became emperor 1700 years ago.  No American civil war, as the 2 Christian sides would have resolved their differences peacefully.  It’s inconceivable. 

Sure, occasionally the whole peaceful resistance thing gets lucky and works, like when Gandhi helped free the entire Indian continent from hundreds of years of British oppression without a single gunshot or raised fist.  Hey, even a stopped clock is right twice a day, everyone knows that.  But he was only a pagan Hindu, instead of a real Christian.  And India finally came to its senses anyway, and developed their own military and nuclear bombs.  So there.

It warms my heart to attend Memorial Day Church services, especially on or near military bases.  To see all the people who have lost lives & limb preserving our freedoms and way of life, now THAT is God’s blessing.  THAT is true courage.  THAT is true patriotism.  THAT is true Christianity, not the crap Jesus was saying.

As a part of the War on Terrorism I really think we need to reprint our Bibles, and remove these shamefully cowardly passages.  They could possibly dampen the spirits of our fighting men and women.

Of course, there are a few others that might need editing.  Just read this shameful display of cowardice:

Mt 26:47 While he was still speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, arrived. With him was a large crowd armed with swords and clubs, sent from the chief priests and the elders of the people.

48 Now the betrayer had arranged a signal with them: “The one I kiss is the man; arrest him.”

49 Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, “Greetings, Rabbi!” and kissed him.

50 Jesus replied, “Friend, do what you came for.” Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him.

51 With that, one of Jesus’ companions reached for his sword, drew it out and struck the servant of the high priest, cutting off his ear.

52 “Put your sword back in its place,” Jesus said to him, “for all who draw the sword will die by the sword.”

Luke 22:51 But Jesus answered, “No more of this!” And he touched the man’s ear and healed him.

Here the terrorists are coming.  They are going to beat Jesus, mock him & murder him.  If they’d had a plane they would have flown it right up his cowardly ass.  He knows that, and so do we.  But does he fight?  No.  One of his followers actually has courage, and attacks one of the terrorists, cutting off his ear.  Jesus tells them to stop this, and then actually heals the terrorist!  He even calls one of the murdering terrorists friend!!  Can you believe this?  Me neither.  Couldn’t have happened.  Even if it did, it clearly has no bearing on the current military campaign of Infinite Justice to wipeout terrorism.

That’s why he was not only a coward, but a loser.  He didn’t fight the terrorists, and they killed him.  Oh, yeah, we try and wash over this with the whole salvation of all thing, but that has nothing to do with us.

Clearly.

I mean, can you actually imagine what would happen if we did what this coward did?  Lived how he lived?

What kind of a world we’d be in if this had been the sole Gospel of the Holy Christian Church for the last 2,000 years?

Me neither.

God Bless America

quoted from :

http://www.yhwh.com/

.. continued ...

quoted from :

http://www.yhwh.com/

p.s.  Though it pains me to do so, the numbers of bitter emails I’ve received forces me to make the following statement:

The preceding piece is sarcasm.  It states the exact opposite of what it really means, in order to make a point.  I’m sorry if you didn’t get it.

Truth for me.

Had to get it in there on the God Squad thread.

Sorry to interrupt Rabbit.

Right on, Brother David.  God wants blood… any fool knows that.  ‘And what was this crap about Jesus identifying with the poor and down-trodden.  That’s a communist plot to try to get us to share.  Blood, power, profit… Praise God… and us (some of us) his chosen ones.

Published on Friday, October 7, 2005
by The Independent

Bush: God Told Me to Invade Iraq
President ‘revealed reasons for war in private meeting’

by Rupert Cornwell

“...Former Palestinian foreign minister Nabil Shaath says Mr Bush told him and Mahmoud Abbas, former prime minister and now Palestinian President: “I’m driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, ‘George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan.’ And I did, and then God would tell me, ‘George go and end the tyranny in Iraq,’ and I did.”

And “now again”, Mr Bush is quoted as telling the two, “I feel God’s words coming to me: ‘Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East.’ And by God, I’m gonna do it.”

Now is this guy a total sociopath or just psychotic and delusional.  God only knows!

God probably told him to rig the last two presidential elections too.

The guy was a bum. He hung out in the pub with the guys and probably enjoyed a few tokes of wisdom weed of an evening. Frankly Rabbit finds it hard to beleive he didn’t get his end away there a few times, he was among the right crowd. He was probably such a top bloke he never talked about it afterwards, is all, so the God Squad who PREFER to talk about it, just figured he was a virgin.

The guy was definately a pacifist and Rabbit would be inclined to thump anyone who took a poke at himself, the first time, but then Rabbit is not a follower of Christ, so much as we are just friends. We’ve shared the same Bong and the same wench once or twice.

Rabbit read about the Busherising Messiah crap the Chimp amused the Pallestinians with.

Can you imagine some of the smirks and comments among the Pallestinian delegation when Shrub is expounding such crap?

GOD...... it makes Rabbit proud.......... he is not OUR president.

Whit,

Amen and verily.

Good songs by Roger Waters.

What God Wants. Part One and Two.

What God wants God gets God help us allWhat God wants God getsThe kid in the corner looked at the priestAnd fingered his pale blue Japanese guitarThe priest saidGod wants goodnessGod wants lightGod wants mayhemGod wants a clean fightWhat God wants God getsDon’t look so surprisedIt’s only dogmaThe alien prophet criedThe beetle and the springbokTook the bible from its hookThe monkey in the cornerWrote the lesson in his bookWhat God wants God gets God help us allGod wants peaceGod wants warGod wants famineGod wants chain storiesWhat God wants God getsGod wants seditionGod wants sexGod wants freedomGod wants semtexWhat God wants God getsDon’t look so surprisedI’m only jokingThe alien comic criedThe jackass and hyenaTook the feather from its bookThe monkey in the cornerWrote the joke down his bookWhat God wants God getsGod wants boardersGod wants crackGod wants rainfallGod wants wetbacksWhat God wants God getsGod wants voodooGod wants shrinesGod wants lawGod wants organised crimeGod wants crusadeGod wants jihadGod wants goodGod wants badWhat God wants God gets

.. continued .. part two ..

Do you believe in a better dayDo you have a faith in a golden wayIf you do then we must come together this dayCome together as one unitedTelevision audienceBrought together the sound of my voiceUnited united financially united sociallyUnited spiritually and all possible waysThrough the power of moneyAnd the power of your prayersWhat God wants God gets God help us allGod wants dollarsGod wants centsGod wants pounds shillings and penceGod wants guildersGod wants kronerGod wants Swiss francsGod wants French francsOui il veut des francs francaisGod wants escudosGod wants pesetasDon’t send liraGod don’t want small potatoesGod wants small townsGod wants painGod wants clean up rock campaignsGod wants widowsGod wants solutionGod wants TVGod wants contributionsWhat God wants God gets God help us allGod wants silverGod wants goldGod wants his secretNever to be toldGod wants gigolosGod wants giraffesGod wants politicsGod wants a good laughWhat God wants God gets God help us allGod wants friendshipGod wants fameGod wants creditGod wants blameGod wants povertyGod wants wealthGod wants insuranceGod wants to cover himselfWhat God wants God gets God help us all

God help me.

Fair use disclaimer.

Good God, David, I’m sorry to break this to you, and if you weren’t aware I’m sorry you had to hear it on of all places an Internet comment board, but Elmer is no longer with us.  Firearms mishap....which by itself of course would have been harmless, but for the simultaneous and extremely rare failure of the automatic animation immortality generator.  (AAIG)

Fortunately, the bloodline continues.  In keeping with the theory of evolution, a superior son emerges ..... far more focused, far more dedicated and armed with superior weapons enhanced with depleted Stratocaster technology.

His anthem hither:

http://tinyurl.com/7t6vl

Wabbits in Australia especially beware.  His name, as I am told, is a clue to his preferred “stomping” grounds.

Wabbit can eveolve too, does Elmer and his Masters think Rabbit’s just sit around waiting for the next weapon. Rabbits had become naturalised West Australians long before the Rabbit Proof fence was completed.

Enough Godish blasphemy, my neice will be onto us and we’ll all be told to get down on our knees and pray.

Like the Elmer song.

Rabbit imagines a GWB, in bog cowboy boots and a huge Stetson, jumping up and down and yelling about a war on Wabbits...............  WOW ......................

Those Wabbits hate our freedoms, they want to destroy our way of life and they have a false god.

“God told me to destroy all Rabbits and by God I am going to do it, right after I’ve destroyed all Muslims”

From another thread, a great site Rabbit found again.  Well presented and huge resource highlighting some of the biggest lies of the century from the master of deceit.

GEORGE BUSH LIES about IRAQ.

http://www.tvnewslies.org/html/iraq_lies.html

What kind of Ammo would Elmer be using Natalie..................................................Rabbit looking up..........................Ears half raised......................big eyes blinking innocently................................^^.................................... .....

On with 911, Rabbit hopes Nat and Jay, and others, are reading lots of interesting stuff from the interesting sources already given who use verifiable facts and science and things to debunk the official theory and allow us to forulate other theories which have the benefit of accounting for all the facts we do at least have.

Or at the least challenge Rabbit on the TEN big bangers, re-printed, using billions of co-operative electrons, for your perusal and consideration, so that he may source and explain their relevance,....................................Don’t make Rabbit stamp his Angry Foot…

Rabbit,

I’m preparing to delve into your massive stack of “everything you know is wrong” (hey, Firesign Theatre 1974!) literature, but in the mean time, I don’t believe you’ve attempted to address the Popular Mechanics series I initially posted de-bunking most of the alternative theories about 9/11.  Do you have any plans to do so? 

There seems to be a couple problems with the initial story about Barbara Olson being arrested.  Seems there is actually no such thing as a Polish-Austrian border, and the currency she was supposedly carrying hadn’t been legal tender since 2002. 

Any further thoughts or revelations re:  Barbara Olson?

P.S.  Just kidding about all that kill da wabbit stuff.  I certainly don’t condone killing wabbits, but that IS an awfully catchy tune, don’t you agree?

Eulogy for Elmer :

Old friends are the best friends.

Old antagonists are the best antagonists.

See you on the other side.

Rabbit just hadn’t seen WB for twenty years is all, didn’t get the Elmer Fudd ref at first.  Am not a sensitive Rabbit, actually I am the most self contained ego, nobody upsets Rabbit by their own choice, just his.

The Popular mechanics Article is not taken seriously by researchers and I will be glad to show you why. Rabbit did not realise that you expected him to even bother with it, sorry. That will be next on my posts. It is a legendary joke though and Rabbit is surprised you don’t realise it. You must not be very well informed on such issues or that Popular Mechanics is a very unreliable source for truth when dealing with major political events. It is thoroughly discredited on so many issues over the years that any engineer who tries to use it’s articles for anything but a coffee coaster is a joke.  You’ll see.  As for the sources you were given they include all there is to know about what happened and very few of the actual FACTS can be questioned they are what is in the public domain. The speculation and theorising which is included about the meaning of the known FACTS is important, but you will be wasting yours and our time if you begin by trying to question the theories. You are expected to verify the FACTS and query them if you feel they can be. But we will establish FACTS and then we will relate these to our opinions or theories.

Now this is a loaded dice, it cannot be denied. The dice is loaded in favour of a logical debate, and a debate which will inevitably debunk some theories while it gives support for others. That means, in a debate, someone is going to lose. That cannot be helped Natalie, since we disagree. In the end, if we are able to arrive at a better understanding of the TRUTH or even just identify LIES, or misperceptions, we will all win.

Rememeber Rabbit has his own very specific opinions. They are not standardised, or predictable. As far as what happened on 911, I am sure of several things only. The “three” WTCs did not fall to the ground simply because a plane flew into two of them. I know this without any doubt, anybody who understands even the most basic physics or engineering, or history of such things knows this.

That is not to say that there aren’t people who have qualifications who are backing the official theory. Just as with DU there are people who have a vested interest or who can be threatened into lying even. In the end it is the Majority of the opinions of the Professions which will decide, as well as simple physics in this case.  The truth is that the official story has only been arrived at by ignoring some of the most enormous pieces of evidence. For example the fact that WTC 7 came down in an identical fashion. The fact that credible witnesses claimed they heard and saw explosions before and after the planes hit. On e witness has 27 others who back his story, including one who was onjured in a bomb blast before the first plane hit.

Natalie these are not just little airy fairy claims of phonecalls and records showing phonecalls were made. Such phonecalls are no more than hearsay, they prove nothing, but especially they have no bearing on whether or not the US government was involved.

Besides the phonecalls, including the Barbara Olson claims have always been questioned since they do not actually fit the official theory as outline above.

The ignoring of evidence, withholding evidence and numerous falsehoods which have been “Proven” to have been uttered, are what helps make a case for the US government’s involvment, on speculation alone. There is lots more evidence that will allow this to be taken beyond mere speculation of course. For now Rabbit is content to let the air out of the tyres of the official theory for you.

On the Barbara Olson story. It is now a couple weeks old and was actually corrected very early on about the Polish/Austrian border mistake. Now actually this in itself makes the story just a tad more believable. You see any deliberate misinfo of this scale would never have made such a basic mistake.

Now the source is Tom Flocco, and that is not a good enough reason to ignore it as some claim. These are wishful thinking because Flocco has a good track record as it happens. He is repeating something which has been told to him and since it does indeed involve intelligence agencies, unverified sources are the order of the day. Now nobody rabbit knows is seriously accepting this story at this point. However we are not so stupid as to ignore all of the reasons why it may well turn out to be true.

This is the advantage of making ones own opinions. You can collect information sometimes without having to form an opinion.

Rabbit’s opinions about 911, are simply those he is able to form from verifiable facts. This is why he did not discount the missile hitting the pentagon, nor did he accept it. The reports about radiation down wind were equally filed away. The fact of DU being in the wings of some aircraft as found by David actually makes such Radiation readings more likely does it not? this then vindicates those people who claimed there was radiation. The problems arise again however because it seems that the plane that is alleged to have struck the Pentagon would not have had such DU counterweights, but a military A3 would have. This is interesting, because the wheels seen at the pentagon site are more likely to be an A3, in fact a carrier based one from the size of radius to diameter. The engine shown in pictures at thje pentagon would also have suited an A3. The engine in the picture at the pentagon is certainly too small and wrong design for a 737 (Sorry if the model wrong, means flight 77)

Anyone who wants to see a recent re-hash and re-examination of details should see here, it is very well referenced and sourced.
-------------------------
FBI Claims 84 Videos Show NO Flight 77 Impact

.............Of course they don’t.. Nothing to see here folks, move along................There are no planes on the videos so nobody needs to see them.

That is probably enough for Natalie? Is it OK that the FBI just says nothing to see and withholds the evidence? Rabbit was of the opinion that US courts were the law, the FBI is only there to enforce the law, not dictate terms by which things shall be established or not.

http://www.rense.com/general67/fbicl.htm

POPULAR MECHANICS.

Rabbit read the Popular Mechanic article when it first came out, and independantly came to all the same conclusions as follows.  The most obvious thing to Rabbit was that most of the “Alternative theories” they were debunking, were not widely held and were already considered to be disinformation by many of us then. So these clown set up an strw man and proceeded to attack it, without even much success then as I recall, Rabbit is as mentioned not altogether foreign to exngineering and physics and on these points alone they show ignorance.

We can deal with each of the Popular Mechanics 16 points, but most of them are simply not relevant, because they are not views held by Rabbit or any serious 911 truth seekers.

The following source is posted because it gives background on the author of the article, and the ownership of the “Rag” concerned. Both points which will be seen as relevant.

Don’t wait for the MP3 download unless you care to listen to Alex blathering on. Relevant too, but Rabbit can’t stand the accent sorry. Maybe it is easier for Yanks to listen to.

http://www.prisonplanet.tv/audio/090305alexresponds.htm

-------------------------------------
The Hearst-owned Popular Mechanics magazine takes aim at the 9/11 Truth Movement (without ever acknowledging it by that name) with a cover story in its March 2005 edition. Sandwiched between ads and features for monster trucks, NASCAR paraphernalia, and off-road racing are twelve dense and brilliantly designed pages purporting to debunk the myths of 9/11.

The article’s approach is to identify and attack a series of claims which it asserts represent the whole of 9/11 skepticism. It gives the false impression that these claims, several of which are clearly absurd, represent the breadth of challenges to the official account of the flights, the World Trade Center attack, and the Pentagon attack. Meanwhile it entirely ignores vast bodies of evidence showing that only insiders had the means, motive, and opportunity to carry out the attack.

The article gives no hint of the put options on the targeted airlines, warnings received by government and corporate officials, complicit behavior by top officials, obstruction of justice by a much larger group, or obvious frauds in the official story. Instead it attacks a mere 16 claims of its choosing, which it asserts are the “most prevalent” among “conspiracy theorists.” The claims are grouped into topics which cover some of the subjects central to the analysis of 9-11 Research. However, for each topic, the article presents specious claims to divert the reader from understanding the issue. For example, the three pages devoted to attacking the Twin Towers’ demolition present three red-herring claims and avoid the dozens of points I feature in my presentations, such as the Twin Towers’ Demolition.

The article brackets its distortion of the issues highlighted by 9/11 skeptics with smears against the skeptics themselves, whom it dehumanizes and accuses of “disgracing the memories” of the victims.

More important, it misrepresents skeptics’ views by implying that the skeptics’ community is an undifferentiated “army” that wholly embraces the article’s sixteen “poisonous claims,” which it asserts are “at the root of virtually every 9/11 alternative scenario.” In fact much of the 9/11 truth community has been working to expose many of these claims as disinformation.

http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/pm/

-------------------------------------------

http://batr.org/911/2005.03.01_arch.html

This is an excellent site, very information intensive and it deals with the Popular Mechanics article in it’s historical perspective.  The rest of the site is worth looking at if you intend to sriously challenge Rabbit. Be aware Natalie that Rabbit has the advantage of probably having read everything you have, but a whole lot more besides. Rabbit has a huge advantage, and he is not boasting about it. Rabbit is a sportsman, and would prefer a challenging hunt any day. You are being advised to be better armed. Of course if you are capable of having an open mind, you will be unable to maintain your present ideas about 911 after having gone through the things you have already been given above. Not just checking they exist, but reading them, questioning the facts they present if you can and form an opinion about what is written, not just about who wrote it. Rabbit has said it before Nat. No qualifications are needed to tell the truth.

I already know how open minded and yet sceptical a group of people the 911 truth movement is. We don’t have all the answers, but we have a hell of a lot more than those who believe the official THEORY. We can absolutely, there is no question the official theory is dead in the water. Babe it didn’t even float at launch. It went straight off the slip hit the water and kept going down until it hit bottom. There it has remained. Except the bottom has continued to rise adn the ship of Lies is nearly buried by the silt of actual evdience which has continued to trickle out.

It is sad to think so many are first going to wake up to the lies when they read the Neo-con JUNTA has been charged with the whole shebang. Organising, paying for and allowing 911 to happen as it did. Then will follow the illegal wars which were launched on the basis of lies and down it will come.................

Natalie the MSM in America has started to wake up to the fact that a watergate style event is about to burst upon the scene. That is happening right now.  You are in for a hell of a lot more than that before this is over, don’t trust me. Just sit back and wait, it won’t be long now.

http://www.thinkprogress.org/leak-scandal
-------------------------------------------

When Popular Mechanics set out to “debunk the myths” surrounding the events of 9/11 they ignored the myth created and propagated by the US government itself.

One of the wilder stories circulating about Sept 11 ... is that it was carried out by 19 fanatical Arab hijackers, masterminded by an evil genius named Osama bin Laden, with no apparent motivation other than that they “hate our freedoms.”
Never a group of people to be bothered by facts, the perpetrators of this cartoon fantasy have constructed an elaborately woven web of delusions and unsubstantiated hearsay in order to promote this garbage across the internet and the media to the extent that a number of otherwise rational people have actually fallen under its spell. ...

These crackpots even contend that the extremist Bush regime was caught unawares by the attacks, had no hand in organizing them, and actually would have stopped them if it had been able. Blindly ignoring the stand-down of the US Air Force, the insider trading on airline stocks — linked to the CIA, the complicit behavior of Bush on the morning of the attacks, the controlled demolition of the WTC, the firing of a missile into the Pentagon and a host of other documented proofs that the Bush regime was behind the attacks, the conspiracy theorists stick doggedly to a silly story about 19 Arab hijackers somehow managing to commandeer 4 planes simultaneously and fly them around US airspace for nearly 2 hours, crashing them into important buildings, without the US intelligence services having any idea that it was coming, and without the Air Force knowing what to do.

— Gerard Holmgren: Debunking Conspiracy Theorists

http://www.serendipity.li/wot/pop_mech/reply_to_popular_mechanics.htm

Where is the MONK?

.............................................^^................................. ............

Natlaie and Jay, please have a look at this source before you go further because it is just in and it’s a beauty. If there is anything about the article whichyou don’t understand Rabbit will be glad to explain it in very simple words.  ...................All ineterested parties have a look at this lovely effort by the WRH team. 

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wtc7.html

Hoppity hop says Rabbit, that site is the best on WTC 7 yet seen. Concise, it is concise, and to the point..........

Here it is again....

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wtc7.html

Now this is getting really good.

That was an excellent bit of work and good, clear writing, Rabbit.  Thanks!

I am involved in necessary distractions lately and haven’t been able to engage much, but I check in regularly.  Spent some time writing last night, but somehow all was lost when I submitted it.  Perhaps because I left it sitting there so long as I answered phone calls.  I dunno.

Anyway, keep hopping, Rabbit.  Carrots to you!

Published on Sunday, October 9, 2005
by The Independent

Tell Us Who Fabricated the Iraq Evidence (P1)
by Norman Dombey

President Bush’s principal adviser Karl Rove is to be questioned again over the improper naming of a CIA official. Mohamed ElBaradei, accused by the American right of being insufficiently aggressive, wins the Nobel Peace Prize for his stalwart work at the helm of the International Atomic Energy Agency. Pentagon official Larry Franklin pleads guilty to passing on classified information to Israel. Just a normal week in politics. But there is a thread linking these events and it is Iraq.

Politicians tell us they acted in good faith on the road to war, and maybe they did, but that leaves a prickly question: who was so keen to prove that Saddam Hussein was an imminent threat that they forged documents purporting to show that he was trying to buy 500 tons of uranium from Niger to develop nuclear weapons? The forgery was revealed to the Security Council by ElBaradei. That was not an intelligence error. It was a straightforward lie, an INVENTION intended to mislead public opinion and help start a war.

At the beginning of 2001, a few weeks before George Bush took office, there was a break-in at the Niger embassy in Rome. Strangely, nothing of value was taken. Months later came 9/11 and a month after that, as George Bush wondered how to get back at the terrorists, a report from the Italian security service (Sismi) reached the CIA: Iraq was seeking to buy uranium.

Disappointingly for the neocons, the CIA sent Ambassador Joseph Wilson to Niger to check the story: he reported that it was nonsense. When the story was repeated by Bush, Wilson went public. His wife, CIA agent Valerie Plame, was then outed by the White House. Hence Rove’s predicament.

An organisation called the Office of Special Plans (OSP) was set up in the Pentagon by Douglas Feith, a former consultant to Israel’s Likud party, to prepare for the war. In the words of Robert Baer, a distinguished former CIA man, it was a “competing intelligence shop at the Pentagon"..."if you didn’t like the answer you’re getting from the CIA”. In short, bogus stories would get a second chance at the OSP.

Tell Us Who Fabricated the Iraq Evidence (P2)
by Norman Dombey

A clue to the ancestry of these black arts can be found in 1980, when right-wing Republicans wanted Ronald Reagan elected. They publicised a story that Billy Carter, the then President Jimmy Carter’s colourful brother, had received $50,000 (£28,000) from the Libyan government.

The story was always denied by the President and no evidence of the payment was found, but the story helped to elect Reagan. Its source? Sismi, and an associate of a man called Michael Ledeen.

Ledeen is an intriguing and enduring presence in the murkier parts of US foreign policy. He is an American specialist on Italy with a long-standing commitment to Israel. According to The New York Times, in December 2001, a few months after the CIA first heard the Niger claims, Ledeen flew to Rome with Manucher Ghorbanifar, a former Iranian arms dealer, and two officials from OSP, one of whom was Larry Franklin. In Rome they met the head of Sismi.

Some months later, the documents were published, having been sold to an Italian journalist by a Roman businessman linked to Sismi.So far, so circumstantial. One man who might well know the answer to all this is Vincent Cannistraro, the former head of counter terrorism operations at the CIA. His belief is that the documents were produced in the US but “funnelled through the Italians”. When an interviewer asked Cannistraro “if I said Michael Ledeen”, he reportedly replied “I don’t think it’s a proven case ...You’d be very close”

Ledeen, on hearing this, issued the following statement: “I have absolutely no connection to the Niger documents, have never even seen them. I did not work on them, never handled them, know virtually nothing about them, don’t think I ever wrote or said anything about the subject.”

It seems it wasn’t Ledeen but someone close to him. So who was it who had been planning since before 9/11 to create a fraudulent casus belli against Saddam?

Norman Dombey is Emeritus Professor of Theoretical Physics at the University of Sussex and an expert on Iraq’s nuclear capability.

(P3) I meant to add towards the end of P2 some emphasis on:

“SINCE BEFORE 9-11” ...since it suggest some prior planning was afoot.

I have to give you credit, Rabbit, you did comprehensively address the PM article in response to my inquiry.  It’s evident to me that the article was viewed as a significant credibility threat by the “what really happened” community, judging from their strenuous rebuttals to it. 

In attacking the motives and credibility of the publisher and the authors of the PM article, perhaps you’ve waived your previously assumed right not to have the same directed at such sources as Alex Jones and prisonplanet.com, or Jeff Rense and Rense.com.

One complaint put forth seems to be that the PM article is mostly focused on claims that level-headed conspiracy theorists have long ago dismissed as unsupportable.  That may be true for a few aspects, but most of the major current claims put forth by you, Alex and others are indeed addressed directly by PM, and quite effectively IMHO:

CLAIM: A columnist on Prisonplanet.com, a Web site run by radio talk show host Alex Jones, claims that seismic spikes are “indisputable proof that massive explosions brought down” the towers. The Web site says its findings are supported by two seismologists at the observatory, Won-Young Kim and Arthur Lerner-Lam. Each “sharp spike of short duration,” says Prisonplanet.com, was consistent with a “demolition-style implosion.”

FACT: “There is no scientific basis for the conclusion that explosions brought down the towers,” Lerner-Lam tells PM. “That representation of our work is categorically incorrect and not in context.” (he misrepresented his source)

CLAIM: Seven hours after the two towers fell, the 47-story WTC 7 collapsed. According to 911review.org: “The video clearly shows that it was not a collapse subsequent to a fire, but rather a controlled demolition.”

FACT: Many conspiracy theorists point to FEMA’s preliminary report, which said there was light damage to WTC 7 prior to its collapse. With the benefit of more time and resources, NIST researchers now support the working hypothesis that WTC 7 was far more compromised by falling debris than the FEMA report indicated. “The most important thing we found was that there was, in fact, damage to the south face of building 7,” NIST’s Sunder tells PM. “On about a third of the face to the center and to the bottom--approximately 10 stories--about 25 percent of the depth of the building was scooped out.” NIST also discovered previously undocumented damage to WTC 7’s upper stories and its southwest corner.

NIST investigators believe a combination of intense fire and severe structural damage contributed to the collapse, though assigning the exact proportion requires more research. But NIST’s analysis suggests the fall of WTC 7 was an example of “progressive collapse,” a process in which the failure of parts of a structure ultimately creates strains that cause the entire building to come down. Videos of the fall of WTC 7 show cracks, or “kinks,” in the building’s facade just before the two penthouses disappeared into the structure, one after the other. The entire building fell in on itself, with the slumping east side of the structure pulling down the west side in a diagonal collapse.

CLAIM: Conspiracy theorists insist there was no plane wreckage at the Pentagon. “In reality, a Boeing 757 was never found,” claims pentagonstrike.co.uk, which asks the question, “What hit the Pentagon on 9/11?”

FACT: Blast expert Allyn E. Kilsheimer was the first structural engineer to arrive at the Pentagon after the crash and helped coordinate the emergency response. “It was absolutely a plane, and I’ll tell you why,” says Kilsheimer, CEO of KCE Structural Engineers PC, Washington, D.C. “I saw the marks of the plane wing on the face of the building. I picked up parts of the plane with the airline markings on them. I held in my hand the tail section of the plane, and I found the black box.” Kilsheimer’s eyewitness account is backed up by photos of plane wreckage inside and outside the building.

Rabbit trys to remember to copy his posts before hitting the Submit button. Often the most work is the one he forgets, and boing, the electrons escape and run off into the ethers. No returns when this happens and if one considers it there is an explanation.

Probably filters in the system, ITTs or “THEM” which re-routs whole posts into a one way door.  Who or what is behind the door?

Rabbit has a computer which he values for it’s virtual imperviousness to hacking. This comptuter crashes in response to anything unexpected. Quite handy because several hacking attempts have been averted and detected that way. If Rabbit even thinks in a certain mood, the thing crashes I swear. Yet it hardly ever crashes for Rabbit, unless as said something weirds the computer out. Then it hits the floor with it’s poor wee cyber arms over it’s cyber head.  Rabbit must pick it up gntly and coax it back into life, after which it tells Rabbit all about the scary thing it felt in the darkness. Much is darkness to such a small computer.

Now Natalie stop the waffling exercise about the PM article. Rabbit was familiar with it as said and knows from his own study of it years ao it is rubbish as shown.

Now it is not normally considered good form or much point in attacking the credibility of the author or publication, but it is by no means a blanket rule. If as in this case it shows the magazine is of a certain bias, and that the author is also, “AND” that they have not actually made any contribution except to build and demolish straw men. Rabbit already sadi we can go through the PM’s random assortment of claims, but most of theme will be moot since neither Rabbit nor any othet sensible people maintain such views anyway.

The comparison to Prisonplanet and Rense and ICH is totally wasted.  First by referring to Jones and Prisonplanet as separate you “PROOVE” you hjave never even looked at the sites mentioned. If you did you would discover why Rabbit goes into paroxysms of laughter (Truly) everytime someone attacks the sites’ integrity.  they are “Collections” of articles, sourced from all over the net and the world. Some are opinon pieces and as often as not include a rebuttal from “one of yours”. The opinion peices are sometimes in house and sometimes from others, including thousands of writers. Nobody gets anything published by those sites which does not check out in the first round. No un-referenced submissions, they are selective in terms of quality but Rense in particular shows restraint in making own views felt.  Jones is a lot more flamboyant and opinionated, but his opinions are shared by more people than share yours probably. The proof is in the pudding Natalie, the PM article doesn’t address anything of significance it was produced as a generic challenge to alternative theories about 911 and as such never made a scrap of difference, both because of obvious ommissions and equally obvious over emphasis placed upon totally irrelevant and minor details. The thing is, even though it was discredited for all the above reasons, it yet failed to address itself to any serious alternative theory or the evidence upon which they are formed.  Some like your self have continued to quote it, in the hopes it will fool someone who knows no better, but it has never withstood any challenges and those few challenges offerred were but the tip of the iceberg.

It did not actually bother anyone in the Truth movement. You mistake the thorough response by many like ICH, WRH, JONES and dozens more as meaning it was important. It was simply being thoroughly debunked and as such it is the closest anyone has ever come to mounting any sort of challenge to the 911 truth movement.

Do not assume that because Rabbit posts one or another source that he is being particularly selective, there are many more to choose from.

The proof is in the pudding, Facts, established, Opinions built upon Facts are at least reasonable. Opinions, Theories which fly in the face of FACTS are dead, undefendable.

Natalie, you are going to have to be more careful about saying things like.......Alex Jones said that the seismic spikes are “ “indisputable proof that massive explosions brought down” the WTCs.

Now Jones as well as many others merely considers those spikes to be evidence of explosives bringing down the WTC’s.. Natalie just because someone says something and maybe even did get carried away ebnough to claim this was proof, does not make them “wrong” that explosives did bring down the WTCs.

Natalie, it has already been shown to you why it is certain that explosives brought down the WTCs and there is Proof aplenty, though the seismic spikes are of themselevs actually quite conclusive in some respects.  You will be handicapping yourself if you persist in ascribing absolute beliefs to people, when they are actually mostly only being absolute about the fact that the official story is a complete fabrication.

Natalie you are stubbirnly using that word FACT to describe opinion again.

“There is no scientific basis for the conclusion that explosions brought down the towers,” Lerner-Lam tells PM. “That representation of our work is categorically incorrect and not in context.”

Natalie that is an Opinion.  Facts have already been presented and will be deatialed now which do “Prove” that Explosives brought down the Towers.  there is no shortage of HIGHLY qualified opinions about this. Rabbit is however quite knowledgeable in the field and can assure you that there is no doubt that these were controlled demolitions.

The Videps exist and show all the things stated above and there is a so much information already given by Rabbit to this effect, you had better read it because it makes no sense to repeat it.  The opinions of people saying something is or is not, are absolutely beside the point if the evidence is in our hands to see for ourselves. 

Before you try and argue about how those towersd fell down Nat, you had best read what those few glib lines you quoted fail to address.  I am telling you for certain, and AM going to prove it, they were controlled demo’s. The only way to deny it is to ignore a huge body of incontrovertible evidence. Multiple Witness testimony, demolitions and Building Accidents history, and plain old LOOKING with your eyes, the blast waves and dust clowds are CLEARLY visible. The last and most telling FACT is called Gravity and Rabbit is saving it for the Coup de gras, for it is that. The seismic evidence agrees with the proposal and that stuff is VERY hard to fake, Especially numerous different stations records.

Natalie your claims from NIST investigators are just that. They have been successfully challenged in the last reference I gave you and I mean successfully. You are suffering from the terminal disease of believing everything a government claims is the truth. History alone shows this to be LUNACY.

Not that Rabbit merely doubts just because the Government says it. If what they say is not consistent with reality, then Rabbit feels quite justified. In the case of 911, not even other governments believe the USA. Did Nat know the EU and individual nations have lodged official refusals to accept the 911 official story?  That is an uncommon step, very uncommon. There was a bit of that about WACO as it happens too.

Nat stop the waffling, you do not have to quote what other say about “Many conspiracy theorists point to FEMA’s preliminary report, which said there was light damage to WTC 7 prior to its collapse”

Rabbit is not many conspiracy theorist, he has his own views and you are being given them. None of my or any of the refs given are relying on FEMA initial report for anything, why go on about it?  Secondly, you are also a conspiracy theorist. Your theory is being tested against Rabbit’s theory.. Do you expect to be taken seriously when you try and elevate what is no more than a poorly accepted theory to FACT and call all other idea’s Theories?  This has been dealt with above. Your theories have no more credibility than they earn for there ability to stand up to scrutiny, any more than any others. 

Nobody Rabbit knows claims no wreckage of airplane was at the Pentagon. Rabbit keeps asking you to read what is being posted, you keep on arguing STRAWMEN Natalie, and the trick is getting old.

The wreckage which can “Clearly be seen” in photos of the Penyagon site show wheels and engine which compared to people standing next to them, can be seen to be NOT of the type of Aircraft which is supposed to have hit the Pentagon. Rabbit already pointed it out and the claim is referenced well among the sources offerred.

A funny thing this “I held in my hand the tail section” Does Nat know how big a tail section for a 757 is?

Natalie this statement does not actually change anything, it also shows something is not right as it happens.  Natalie such minor inconsistencies as this would be meaningless in isolation, you do realise of course. It is the full chorus of inconsistencies and anomalies which lead open mined people to other conclusions than the official DITTO.

Hey Natalie do you even realise that there are court cases in prgress which are probably going to “Prove” the buildings were brought down by Explosives, among other things?  One of them should be coming round soon, others are in the works.

Hi Whit.

Rabbit dropped a good article on another thead. Thorough statement of Iran situation in context.  Here it is. It is a distilled version of what Rabbit has been saying about these things for a while.

Edging to Disaster with Iran.

http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_mike_whi_051007_edging_towards_disas.htm

by Mike Whitney

These are a LOT of awfully smart people to try to hide a deliberate implosion operation from:

“These experts in tall building design, steel structure behavior, fire protection engineering, blast effects, and structural investigations were impaneled on a building performance assessment team (BPAT). This BPAT was sponsored by a partnership of FEMA, SEI/ASCE, the state of New York, the New York City Department of Design and Construction, and the Structural Engineers Association of New York. The team was also supported by the National Council of Structural Engineers Associations, the National Fire Protection Association, the Society of Fire Protection Engineers, the American Concrete Institute, the American Institute of Steel Construction, the Masonry Society, the Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat, and the National Institute of Standards and Technology.”

http://www.pubs.asce.org/ceonline/ceonline02/0502feat.html

(don’t forget to close those URL spaces!) Ahem, ITT.

Engineers are some of the most independent, practically minded people I’ve known.  They are not typically subject to bribery, or likely to participate in cover-ups.  Integrity would be my vote for the word that best describes their core characteristic.  I happen to have several of them in my immediate family, and while they all to a person happen to hate GWB with a passion, non of them subscribe to the notion that he, or agents of the U.S. government were complicit in the events of 9/11.  It simply doesn’t add up to them from an engineering, evidentiary or common sense standpoint.

I have to assume now, that you must also believe the first attempt to topple the Twin Towers in 1993 was carried out by, or with the knowledge, consent and/or help of the U.S. Government.  Do you have any information or speculation on THAT event?

Rabbit,

“Edging Towards Disaster with Iran” by Mike Whitney is the article you recommended, right?  The URL only got me as far as OpEd home page, but I found and read this article, which was insightful and informative.

Yes, I believe that the neo-cons have the intent of taking over Iran as well.  It borders and intersects (falls partly within) the ‘golden triangle’ that contains 60% of the worlds recoverable oil. I would hope that the evil neo-con agenda falls apart before they can realize their plan.  We’ve screwed the Iranians around enough.  They deserve a chance to work out their problems and establish their society without our undermining interference. We’ll have to see how it all plays out.  Will America’s military/industrial shadow-government take control of the entire Middle East?

Natalie your last point first,

“I have to assume now, that you must also believe the first attempt to topple the Twin Towers in 1993 was carried out by, or with the knowledge, consent and/or help of the U.S. Government.  Do you have any information or speculation on THAT event?”

.......What the hell are you talking