No bull, Bun.
What is your proof, exactly? I believe it’s fine to speculate and hypothecize, but to so confidently proclaim things about someone with no real proof, like I’m related to Roger, or I complained to ITT is unfair.
If ITT mistakenly told you I contacted them, then I finally do have a reason to contact them for the first time.
Posted by Natalie on Oct 4, 2005 at 10:00 AM
Natalie,
.
You have only now, after more than a month of Rabbit referring to you as one of the culprits who attempted to shut Rabbit down. It is a bit stale to now, finally to put up the sort of resistance you should have done at the time.
.
As for the Helbig naming, something similar bot with more nuance will be offerred shortly.
.
The reasons I called you on this, at the time, you may recall, are quite telling, and while they prove nothing, they do beat a very distinct path to your door. If at this stage it was not the case, you have left it a bit late to protest…..The reasons are as follows.
.
Rabbit was engaged in in a somewhat spiteful, both sides, debate with Roger Ramjet. You were acting as his deputy, despite claiming neutrality. Let us not start denials of partisanship at this stage, please, we have been there and it is admitted by your self. Rabbit had finally managed to stump both Roger and yourself by posting the WIKIPEDIA entry about International Resolutions.
.
Gone,both gone like the wind for days. At this alte stage of the game, (then) Rabbit had also posted on five more threads on ITT.
.
On three of these Rbbit was more rude to a few others, with not quite as much justification, though some. One of these people was WTH as a matter of fact. Another thread which had seen Rabbit was The Unnatural Disaster thread, where you had actually posted at that time also. On this thread Rabbit was loving and kind and had not actually abused anyone. The exception to the other threads was only that Rabbit mentioned the Radioactive Wounds of War thread and DU as an iddue.
.
You were what’s more, also on another of the threads, but no DU mentioned there..
.
When the ban on Rabbit came it saw my posts removed from the Radioactive Wounds of War thread, and the Unnatural Disaster thread, simultaneously. The site moderators pull people based on more than one complaint, by the way, Roger could not have done it alone.
.
Then, almost immediately you and Roger both jumped back onto the Radioactive Wounds of War thread and pretended I had never existed, and so far pinned you both to the wall on the DU issue.
.
Lo and Behold, the Ghost of Rabbit appeared spake unto you again. Both you and Roger proceeded to claim Rabbit had been banned and made direct claims that I had threatened and been excessively abusive. Interestingly at that point while others were writing and fighting for Rabbit’s rights, you two were Shilling flat out on the DU thread and slandering Rabbit.
.
Rabbit’s posts were quickly returned on the Unnatural Disasters thread, and eventually on the DU thread. By this time you and Ramjet had been bottled up a couple more times and the history of the DU thread stands as testimony to the rest.
.
The point to remember is that after having been subjected to scrutiny Rabbit was exonerated. Not Guilty Rabbit.
.
If you can give a logical explanation which explains the above facts, yet somehow excludes your involvment in dirty tricks, let’s hear it.
.
This is the gross evidence used but there are a number of more circumstantial points which helped things to fall into place.
.
ITT are generally quite reticent and have not contacted me except to acknowledge details of their policy.
.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 4, 2005 at 5:44 PM
Rabbit would also point out thyat Pale Rider sufferred a similar fate when he first confronted you both.
.
The truth if it be much different to this scenario, would have best been established when you were first asked for truth. As said this is very late in the game to challenge something which has already clearly been a serious threat to your credibility for a while. You have been playing for keeps Nat, if you could have successfully challenged these facts why would you have waited so long?
.
Now be asurred that it is not my intention to use the DU thread to cause you any further discomfort. In the interests of truth, if there is a problem with the above “assumptions”, of mine, then let us get them out of the way, otherwise let us move forward in debate. Rabbit has only ever been straight up with you. With this Hopper, what you see is what you get.
.
Rabbit does not wish to be unfair, especially to his beloved princess of darkness, but he is at this point a suspicious Rabbit, and with reason. Rabbit does have a few friends and you have met some, they actually agree about you, (They don’t like you, though Rabbit does)
.
You are not only going to have to convinve Rabbit but they too might have some queries yet.
.
But, to a Light Warrior Rabbit, truth is more important than being right, so you are welcome to give me truth. Beware the lie, for as Rabbit had to teach his teenage son yesterday, to admit a mistake is relatively easy compared to having to admit a lie about a mistake..
.
The first time you lie you can have for free, after that, make sure your answer is the one you intend to stick to.
.
If you are not Natalie Helbig, then it will be easy for you to prove it, and it can be done privately if you wish. Rabbit would on his honour never say anything on thread but that he now believes you.
.
It is BTW maybe only a co-incidence but there is a rather specific pattern of postings between you and Roger yet. You are on this site simultaneously after days or weeks absence even yet.
.
Proves nothing on its own, but it sure doesn’t detract from the overall impression.
.
Busy Rabbit day making boats, but this thread will be on and off loolked at all day.
.
See Rabbit loves Batty Natty, she is nice when she’s Chatty, Rabbit is not being Catty….......hee…hee…........................^^.............................
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 4, 2005 at 5:45 PM
Rabbit says : “Beware the lie, for as Rabbit had to teach his teenage son yesterday, to admit a mistake is relatively easy compared to having to admit a lie about a mistake.. The first time you lie you can have for free, after that, make sure your answer is the one you intend to stick to. “
Good advice for everyone. Go forth and sin no more.
PS. The poetry is nice.
” See Rabbit loves Batty Natty, she is nice when she
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 4, 2005 at 6:47 PM
.. on a technical note .. it would seem that our gracious ITT hosts mhave made some formatting adjustments to the comments we post .. i.e. a one line space is a one line space .. back to reality .. but as always brief is best ..
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 4, 2005 at 9:29 PM
Rabbit noticed that, but didn’t want to scare it away. Nice little electrons,....... be good to us…..............David have you got any thing which clearlt shows the actual times taken for the buidings to collapse? Start to finish of the actual collapse?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 4, 2005 at 10:36 PM
Some of the FACTS which Rabbit considers crucial to forming any opinions about how the WTC’s collapsed.
.1.Each WTC building collapse occurred at virtually free-fall speed (approximately 10 seconds or less). Actually one was 8.7 seconds I think, but am seeking confirmation.
2.Each building collapsed, for the most part, into its own footprint.
3.Virtually all the concrete (an estimated 100,000 tons in each tower) on every floor was pulverized into a very fine dust, a phenomenon that requires enormous energy and could not be caused by gravity alone (”
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 5, 2005 at 6:35 AM
Natty now no timey to whitey, must go workey, but Natty angwee with wabby, wong on so many wevvels.
Natty wuv wabby, still yet.
Posted by Natalie on Oct 5, 2005 at 9:41 AM
Rabbit may be wrong about some of his speculation, but on many levels? We shall see.
Rabbit knows you love him.
What now the Nat is being condescending? Rabbit reaches a paw of equality down to Nat, who now calls him a baby?
Don’t be flip. We are big Rabbits and Girls.
The power is not in the words, but in the truth. The rest is just art….....or not.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 5, 2005 at 6:56 PM
What, no WB available out west down under? No baby talk condescension intended, just a reference to a certain bunny’s arch rival. You earlier wrote:
“You have only now, after more than a month of Rabbit referring to you as one of the culprits who attempted to shut Rabbit down. It is a bit stale to now, finally to put up the sort of resistance you should have done at the time.”
Rabbit, to respond to every twist and turn you present, or in this case invent, I’d be forced to call in sick every other day. I wasn’t even sure if you were serious about it. But even if I HAD “resisted”, what good would have come of it? I did forcefully and promptly protest your insistence on manufacturing my family ties with Roger, still yet to absolutely no avail.
“As for the Helbig naming, something similar bot with more nuance will be offerred shortly.”
Ah, suspense. The oldest marketing trick in the book. Do you have an agreement with ITT to help prolong interest in their site? Do disclose.
“The reasons I called you on this, at the time, you may recall, are quite telling, and while they PROVE NOTHING, they do beat a very distinct path to your door. If at this stage it was not the case, you have left it a bit late to protest…..The reasons are as follows.”
“Rabbit was engaged in in a somewhat spiteful, both sides, debate with Roger Ramjet. You were acting as his deputy, despite claiming neutrality. Let us not start denials of partisanship at this stage, please, we have been there and it is admitted by your self. Rabbit had finally managed to stump both Roger and yourself by posting the WIKIPEDIA entry about International Resolutions.”
I simply agreed with Roger, AFTER doing my OWN research, that while DU certainly is not as benign as water, the picture painted by the article “Radioactive Wounds of War” is unrealistic, and preys on our natural fears of anything “radioactive”. The horrific claims by Rokke, who was quoted in the article, and others of like mind and constant association, such as Lauren Moret, are over the top. They play directly into our enemy’s hands and poison the debate. There WAS no stumping. I responded to your WIKIPEDIA link, pointing out that these particular resolutions by a U.N. subcommittee are not binding, and are the product of hatred and jealousy of America. If all such resolutions were followed, we would be required to destroy every weapon in our arsenal, and the population of Israel would be forced to devolve into sea dwelling creatures.
“Gone,both gone like the wind for days. At this alte stage of the game, (then) Rabbit had also posted on five more threads on ITT.”
As it happens, I was on a home-based vacation the week I initially (and politely) offered my opinion on the relative dangers of DU. Any “gone-ness” was only due to the fact that the vacation ended. Sorry to disappoint, but it’s no more mysterious than that.
“On three of these Rbbit was more rude to a few others, with not quite as much justification, though some. One of these people was WTH as a matter of fact. Another thread which had seen Rabbit was The Unnatural Disaster thread, where you had actually posted at that time also. On this thread Rabbit was loving and kind and had not actually abused anyone. The exception to the other threads was only that Rabbit mentioned the Radioactive Wounds of War thread and DU as an iddue.”
I’m sorry, you’re totally losing me here. Believe me, your suspicions have absolutely nothing to do with me, and I doubt any others.
“When the ban on Rabbit came it saw my posts removed from the Radioactive Wounds of War thread, and the Unnatural Disaster thread, simultaneously. The site moderators pull people based on more than one complaint, by the way, Roger could not have done it alone.”
continued…....
Posted by Natalie on Oct 6, 2005 at 4:20 AM
pg. 2 (sorry, David, this is not brief)
You asked me to give evidence for my belief that flight 93 was forced down by the actions of the passengers, and I provided it. Did the moderators TELL you that their policy demands more than one complaint, or are you just assuming it? Or did they simply say something generic like “We’ve received complaints”? If there WAS more than one complaint, one of the additional didn’t come from me, as much as you want to believe it did.
“Then, almost immediately you and Roger both jumped back onto the Radioactive Wounds of War thread and pretended I had never existed, and so far pinned you both to the wall on the DU issue.
Coincidence, I assure you, and I dissent on the pinning claim. But as I’ve asked you before, even if all WAS as you imagine, how does that prevent you from simply presenting evidence to support your contentions? Why all the wasted time and space speculating on who I might be and who I might be associated with?
“Lo and Behold, the Ghost of Rabbit appeared spake unto you again. Both you and Roger proceeded to claim Rabbit had been banned and made direct claims that I had threatened and been excessively abusive. Interestingly at that point while others were writing and fighting for Rabbit
Posted by Natalie on Oct 6, 2005 at 4:25 AM
Natalie write : ” ... if they do indeed have such
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 6, 2005 at 9:14 AM
Natalie, I got the Elmer Fudd reference right away (my child like nature, hehe). Made me laugh. In fact, I made a reference, elswhere, that even though Wile E. Coyoyte was a super genius he never caught the Road Runner. So be warned Natalie, hunting wabbits is twicky ...
” Elmer’s role .. that of would-be hunter, dupe and foil for Bugs, would remain his main role forever after and although Bugs Bunny was called upon to outwit many more worthy opponents, Elmer somehow remained Bugs’ classic nemesis, despite (or because of) his legendary gullibility, small size, short temper, and shorter attention span. Somehow knowing, not only that Elmer would lose, but knowing how he would lose, made the confrontation, counterintuitively, more delicious. “
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elmer_Fudd
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 6, 2005 at 12:20 PM
Since this thread is descending into the faintly risible, let me insert this lame joke I heard recently:
Q: How many free market ideologues does it take to change a light bulb?
A: Null. They just sit in the dark and wait for an invisible hand to change it for them.
Posted by luminous beauty on Oct 6, 2005 at 1:43 PM
Q. How many government bureaucrats does it take to change a light bulb?
A) None.
1) it isn’t in their union contract
2) that’s someone else’s job
3) I’m on my lunch break
Posted by Jay Cline on Oct 6, 2005 at 2:11 PM
Wrong.
It takes the entire bureau, working weeks of over-time to complete the necessary paperwork to file a report in which the light bulb is changed into a ‘standardized area illumination device, IDN348992-B/H485mod3a(see attached file).’
How many Corp.Execs?
Two. One to make drinks and one to tell his assistant to tell his secretary to call an electrician.
Posted by luminous beauty on Oct 6, 2005 at 3:17 PM
Oh. Yes. Getting back on thread.
An Evangelical Christian changes a light bulb by asking it to accept Jesus Christ as its personal Lord and Savior.
Posted by luminous beauty on Oct 6, 2005 at 3:49 PM
Natalie Rabbit has always attempted to keep the debate as focussed and relevant as possible. It is yourself and Roger who introduced all the twists and turns, both directly and by avoiding straight answers to straight questions. That is history and awaits any appraisals on the relevant thread.
The first outing of Ramjet was of utmost importance in showing that a known Shill for the Pentagon lies was involved. At that point had you been open minded you would have read all the references given by people. Rabbit just did so last night, went through all the refs and sources given in just the first two pages, and Natalie there is no way anyone could have emerged after that with anything but a conviction that so called Depleted Uranium was an unnaceptable way to wage war.
That is important when releated to your claims of having tried to establish the truth. At the very least there had to be sufficient reasons to employ proper tersting of all soldiers, even this you have resisted.
Since you cannot even do this much for your troops, please stop coming off with ridiculous lines like this.
“play directly into our enemy
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 6, 2005 at 6:30 PM
You avoided the Wikipedia source and it’s message for a long time actually. You then tried to talk your way around it as you do now. The source was merely one of those offerred to show why the use of Nuclear Waste, Depleted Uranium was banned by all civilised nations. The only exceptions now being USA and Britain. Nat they did establish the nature of this as a WAR CRIME. You are re-writing history a bit here but Rabbit refers any doubters to the thread. You see I will not be using any more of this thread to deal with what amounts only to “Filler’ or ‘Smoke and Mirrors’ when the real issues we had reached was 911, and that was why you came here Nat. Rabbit said already he would drop all the old stuff and begin anew if you wished. Now beyond this brief reply, which is all it is, not intended as a challenge. Natalie is hereby permitted by Rabbit, to be anybody she wants and Rabbit will goo along with it for now. It was suggested that you proved Rabbit wrong on your name, it should be so easy after all. It was only ever presented as a theory and you have never seriously challenged it, that doesn’t make abbit a liar, merely wrong. All I need is proof to admit it. But you are being given the benefit of the doubt….....
Natalie says:
“If all such resolutions were followed, we would be required to destroy every weapon in our arsenal, and the population of Israel would be forced to devolve into sea dwelling creatures.”
....Let us not get hysterical please, this is bunk and you know it. These resolutions are very specific and there is more than just these UN Resolutions which establish the world opinion on DU. There are a lot more than the three people you and Roger keep on trying to discredit who are involved in the push against DEPLETED URANIUM weapons. The people outnumber the PRO Depleted Uranium crown by thousands to one, which is what makes your small pickings at individuals so laughable.
Natalie you gave a story about a woman who made certain claims. Rabbit pointed out it was not of the standard of evidence sceptical people would normally accept. This whilst accepting your ‘eveidence’ at face value. Rabbit then added some more FACTS extremely well presented which together with your facts actually damaged the official story of 911, which is what I promised to do afetr all.
Try not to waste time accusing Rabbit of disseminating. Rabbit is in fact a very goal oriented Rabbit who while not afraid of detailed analysis, is more inclined to strike as direct a path to the objective as is possible. You get no free opinions with Rabbit. I will pay for mine if required and you will be expected to pay for yours.
Facts are the currency.
Yes the moderators told Rabbit multiple complaints are needed, if it was an assumption I would have said so. They never told me they had recieved complaints, you and Roger did…...........That is one of the reasons I knew it was you. ITT took ages to answer and the posts were all back up before I heard from them….............Now think about that, and stop being silly. Rabbit is not concerned. Nat there were only two threads pulled, you were the only thing they had in common.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 6, 2005 at 7:00 PM
Ha Ha Hee Hee Ho Ho
Thank you to Luminous Beauty and Jay for lightening the mood.
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 6, 2005 at 7:06 PM
New Word for the Day : posted for the benefit of those who did not know what it meant (me) and those to lazy to look it up :
risible
1. Relating to laughter or used in eliciting laughter.
2. Eliciting laughter; ludicrous.
3. Capable of laughing or inclined to laugh.
Thank you Luminous Beauty.
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 6, 2005 at 7:13 PM
oops….Rabbit meant you and DU were the only things they had in common.
Now if you are not connected to Roger you have to realise that someone was pulling monkey tricks, and what about Pale Rider? the same thing happened and he was very polite. But his info was dynamite, and somebody didn’t want it being said. Now how can you feel good about supporting somebody who is clearly pulling such dishonest tricks if you are yourself honest? Rabbit even admitted whenever he knew other posters, before being accused, which was silly since they were admitted Rabbit friends, two were anyway. Rabbit does not want to believe Nat complained about him at all. It is however necessary for Nat to consider the consequences of the complaints which were certainly made by someone about the Unnatural Disaster thread, thus making you look like the culprit. Besides which it must be remembered that there was obviously nothing to complain about after all, Rabbit - Not Guilty…..
The co-incidence of your near simultaneous postings has actually been a common feature since early in the thread. Also the tag teaming when one or the other was confronted with an unavoidable obstacle…...................Rabbit does not believe that there is any such thing as co-incidence except as an observed occurrence. Things happen in CO-Incidence, there is always a reason. We may not always know that reason.
Rabbit has speculated upon one reason for the co-incidences, you say these do not correspond with truth. Maybe so. It is of no consequence really. You have been flogged dear girl, none would disagree upon reading the DU thread, but you can claim that as a victory if it feels better. GWB claims Iraq as a Victory after all.
If you are all rabbit claimed Nat, eg: a Shill, that does not stop you presenting any evidence to support your claims. It does however affect the way in which others will view you and your opinions. Your evidence was always examined by others and it was always found wanting. As in the case of the flight 93 above the source often proved only that some fact you claimed had been reported somewhere. Even if it established the FACT, this did not at any point build a case for the continued use of Nuclear Waste as a Weapon. We are here examining FACTS and how to relate these to 911. Proving a Fact as such is only a start, you must use that Fact, in league with other Facts to establish a credible theory.
It is also important to remember that most of us are sophisticated enough to realise the importance of “Internet Propaganda” and just how much resources are currently being expended to reduce the amount of open discussion and orderly debate about important issues. So if you merely say that such idea’s as Shills and Disinfo agents is crazy you will be demonstrating that you have something to hide. Google it anybody who doesn’t understand.
To be taken seriously you need to admit that Ramjet is one, he is long since ID’d, years ago. You have seen the evidence of it, and equally so if you were not one who complained about either I or Pale Rider. If you can admit this but still say you were acting independantly Rabbit will extend the benefit of the doubt even further.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 6, 2005 at 7:22 PM
You didn’t use the word Banned, the exact post will be quoted later when Rabbit has had time to check, and if wrong I will say so too.
“abusive, insulting, and yes threatening words for me and others were borne of your inability to effectively defend your position”
...Natalie the thread stands yet and any can see that Rabbit’s words were justifiably harsh but as far as Flaming on the net goes, mild in all but their effectiveness. Besides that those who know Rabbit know he is none of the things you accuse him of. Others have actually been more directly abusive of both you and Roger, they just swore at you and ignored you henceforth.
“But after I read that you were banned, (I believe the announcement was on another thread), I thought yeah, he shouldn
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 6, 2005 at 7:56 PM
Now Can we talk about 911 and how those with a Faith based argument use it to justify making war on entire nations?
How many women with PMS does it take to change a lightbulb?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 6, 2005 at 8:01 PM
lb,
I stand corrected
:)
Posted by Jay Cline on Oct 6, 2005 at 8:34 PM
” Now Can we talk about 911 and how those with a Faith based argument use it to justify making war on entire nations? “
Rabbit has brought the thread back full circle.
” Fundamentalist bullies cannot be appeased. they must be confronted. “
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 6, 2005 at 8:39 PM
So is it possible that Rabbit could have some feedback from any who feel the official 911 has some credibility, when the above ten point Rabbit post is taken into account. I’ve been waiting for the chance to prove any of those contentions.
This is important to any who wish to argue that what the USA is doing in it’s War on Terror. There are those of us who think of it as a War of Terror and one of the crucial cases upon which we have formed this opinion, is that the official story of 911 does not stand ANY scrutiny, it ignores a whole herd of PINK ELEPHANTS in the living room at it’s best and is provably wrong, in FACT, as well as scientific analysis.
Thye whole lie is unravelling as we speak. There are court cases and indigtments being handed down now which will lead to very serious questions being raised as well as some very shocking answers being found.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 6, 2005 at 9:26 PM
How about a free book, Folks?
A little education never hurt the effort of trying to converge on a more objective version of reality.
http://gangsofamerica.com/read.html
Posted by ljwhit on Oct 6, 2005 at 11:32 PM
Rabbit’s wonky computer now begins the task of downloading the free book. Thanks Whit.
If it was the flash computer at home it would have already done it and made Rabbit a cup of coffee. Rabbit must make his own coffee here to.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 7, 2005 at 12:35 AM
Damn has the God Squad caved in now we’re town to Facts?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 7, 2005 at 4:27 AM
Among my other varied reading, I’m re-reading “Crossing the Rubicon” to re-consider info and freshen up my thinking.
Jay, if you attempt this 600 page read, you will feel compelled to dimiss this guy as a “comspiracy wing-nut” (if I recall correctly your term). However, I hope you give it a shot. He has 60 pages of appendix, endnotes, and references. While it is not recommended that you ‘believe’ or ‘agree’ blindly with any conclusions, it is recommended that you check out the information made available with an open but critical mind, consider its implications, analyze it for yourself, and draw you own conclusions. The book is a rich source of referenced information, and presents a very wide and deep overview of our current predicament… for your humble consideration.
Posted by whit on Oct 7, 2005 at 7:37 AM
Rabbit re-posts this since it is relatively short and deserved mopre than the dustbin of history on this thread,..........Rabbit stamps angry foot!
Some of the FACTS which Rabbit considers crucial to forming any opinions about how the WTC
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 7, 2005 at 7:49 PM
GOD does not care about anybody at all more than anybody else. Then. Try and censor that.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 7, 2005 at 7:52 PM
Had to share this opinion from :
http://www.yhwh.com/
Jesus was a loser and a coward
It’s time the truth be told. Jesus was a loser and a coward, it’s just that plain and simple. Just listen to this tripe:
Mt 5:38 “You have heard that it was said,
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 7, 2005 at 9:41 PM
.. continued ..
Just think if we had actually been practicing what this coward preached for these last 2000 years. No crusades (where the Real Church killed millions of the infidel Muslims, praise God.) No Lutheran sponsored Holocaust. The Roman empire would have turned into a peace-loving state when Constantine became emperor 1700 years ago. No American civil war, as the 2 Christian sides would have resolved their differences peacefully. It’s inconceivable.
Sure, occasionally the whole peaceful resistance thing gets lucky and works, like when Gandhi helped free the entire Indian continent from hundreds of years of British oppression without a single gunshot or raised fist. Hey, even a stopped clock is right twice a day, everyone knows that. But he was only a pagan Hindu, instead of a real Christian. And India finally came to its senses anyway, and developed their own military and nuclear bombs. So there.
It warms my heart to attend Memorial Day Church services, especially on or near military bases. To see all the people who have lost lives & limb preserving our freedoms and way of life, now THAT is God’s blessing. THAT is true courage. THAT is true patriotism. THAT is true Christianity, not the crap Jesus was saying.
As a part of the War on Terrorism I really think we need to reprint our Bibles, and remove these shamefully cowardly passages. They could possibly dampen the spirits of our fighting men and women.
Of course, there are a few others that might need editing. Just read this shameful display of cowardice:
Mt 26:47 While he was still speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, arrived. With him was a large crowd armed with swords and clubs, sent from the chief priests and the elders of the people.
48 Now the betrayer had arranged a signal with them: “The one I kiss is the man; arrest him.”
49 Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, “Greetings, Rabbi!” and kissed him.
50 Jesus replied, “Friend, do what you came for.” Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him.
51 With that, one of Jesus
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 7, 2005 at 9:44 PM
.. continued ...
quoted from :
http://www.yhwh.com/
p.s. Though it pains me to do so, the numbers of bitter emails I’ve received forces me to make the following statement:
The preceding piece is sarcasm. It states the exact opposite of what it really means, in order to make a point. I’m sorry if you didn’t get it.
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 7, 2005 at 9:48 PM
Truth for me.
Had to get it in there on the God Squad thread.
Sorry to interrupt Rabbit.
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 7, 2005 at 9:53 PM
Right on, Brother David. God wants blood… any fool knows that. ‘And what was this crap about Jesus identifying with the poor and down-trodden. That’s a communist plot to try to get us to share. Blood, power, profit… Praise God… and us (some of us) his chosen ones.
Published on Friday, October 7, 2005
by The Independent
Bush: God Told Me to Invade Iraq
President ‘revealed reasons for war in private meeting’
by Rupert Cornwell
“...Former Palestinian foreign minister Nabil Shaath says Mr Bush told him and Mahmoud Abbas, former prime minister and now Palestinian President: “I’m driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, ‘George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan.’ And I did, and then God would tell me, ‘George go and end the tyranny in Iraq,’ and I did.”
And “now again”, Mr Bush is quoted as telling the two, “I feel God’s words coming to me: ‘Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East.’ And by God, I’m gonna do it.”
Now is this guy a total sociopath or just psychotic and delusional. God only knows!
God probably told him to rig the last two presidential elections too.
Posted by whit on Oct 7, 2005 at 9:58 PM
The guy was a bum. He hung out in the pub with the guys and probably enjoyed a few tokes of wisdom weed of an evening. Frankly Rabbit finds it hard to beleive he didn’t get his end away there a few times, he was among the right crowd. He was probably such a top bloke he never talked about it afterwards, is all, so the God Squad who PREFER to talk about it, just figured he was a virgin.
The guy was definately a pacifist and Rabbit would be inclined to thump anyone who took a poke at himself, the first time, but then Rabbit is not a follower of Christ, so much as we are just friends. We’ve shared the same Bong and the same wench once or twice.
Rabbit read about the Busherising Messiah crap the Chimp amused the Pallestinians with.
Can you imagine some of the smirks and comments among the Pallestinian delegation when Shrub is expounding such crap?
GOD…... it makes Rabbit proud…....... he is not OUR president.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 7, 2005 at 10:19 PM
Whit,
Amen and verily.
Good songs by Roger Waters.
What God Wants. Part One and Two.
What God wants God gets God help us allWhat God wants God getsThe kid in the corner looked at the priestAnd fingered his pale blue Japanese guitarThe priest saidGod wants goodnessGod wants lightGod wants mayhemGod wants a clean fightWhat God wants God getsDon’t look so surprisedIt’s only dogmaThe alien prophet criedThe beetle and the springbokTook the bible from its hookThe monkey in the cornerWrote the lesson in his bookWhat God wants God gets God help us allGod wants peaceGod wants warGod wants famineGod wants chain storiesWhat God wants God getsGod wants seditionGod wants sexGod wants freedomGod wants semtexWhat God wants God getsDon’t look so surprisedI’m only jokingThe alien comic criedThe jackass and hyenaTook the feather from its bookThe monkey in the cornerWrote the joke down his bookWhat God wants God getsGod wants boardersGod wants crackGod wants rainfallGod wants wetbacksWhat God wants God getsGod wants voodooGod wants shrinesGod wants lawGod wants organised crimeGod wants crusadeGod wants jihadGod wants goodGod wants badWhat God wants God gets
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 7, 2005 at 10:26 PM
.. continued .. part two ..
Do you believe in a better dayDo you have a faith in a golden wayIf you do then we must come together this dayCome together as one unitedTelevision audienceBrought together the sound of my voiceUnited united financially united sociallyUnited spiritually and all possible waysThrough the power of moneyAnd the power of your prayersWhat God wants God gets God help us allGod wants dollarsGod wants centsGod wants pounds shillings and penceGod wants guildersGod wants kronerGod wants Swiss francsGod wants French francsOui il veut des francs francaisGod wants escudosGod wants pesetasDon’t send liraGod don’t want small potatoesGod wants small townsGod wants painGod wants clean up rock campaignsGod wants widowsGod wants solutionGod wants TVGod wants contributionsWhat God wants God gets God help us allGod wants silverGod wants goldGod wants his secretNever to be toldGod wants gigolosGod wants giraffesGod wants politicsGod wants a good laughWhat God wants God gets God help us allGod wants friendshipGod wants fameGod wants creditGod wants blameGod wants povertyGod wants wealthGod wants insuranceGod wants to cover himselfWhat God wants God gets God help us all
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 7, 2005 at 10:28 PM
God help me.
Fair use disclaimer.
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 7, 2005 at 10:31 PM
Good God, David, I’m sorry to break this to you, and if you weren’t aware I’m sorry you had to hear it on of all places an Internet comment board, but Elmer is no longer with us. Firearms mishap….which by itself of course would have been harmless, but for the simultaneous and extremely rare failure of the automatic animation immortality generator. (AAIG)
Fortunately, the bloodline continues. In keeping with the theory of evolution, a superior son emerges ..... far more focused, far more dedicated and armed with superior weapons enhanced with depleted Stratocaster technology.
His anthem hither:
http://tinyurl.com/7t6vl
Wabbits in Australia especially beware. His name, as I am told, is a clue to his preferred “stomping” grounds.
Posted by Natalie on Oct 7, 2005 at 11:59 PM
Wabbit can eveolve too, does Elmer and his Masters think Rabbit’s just sit around waiting for the next weapon. Rabbits had become naturalised West Australians long before the Rabbit Proof fence was completed.
Enough Godish blasphemy, my neice will be onto us and we’ll all be told to get down on our knees and pray.
Like the Elmer song.
Rabbit imagines a GWB, in bog cowboy boots and a huge Stetson, jumping up and down and yelling about a war on Wabbits…............ WOW ......................
Those Wabbits hate our freedoms, they want to destroy our way of life and they have a false god.
“God told me to destroy all Rabbits and by God I am going to do it, right after I’ve destroyed all Muslims”
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 8, 2005 at 12:25 AM
From another thread, a great site Rabbit found again. Well presented and huge resource highlighting some of the biggest lies of the century from the master of deceit.
GEORGE BUSH LIES about IRAQ.
http://www.tvnewslies.org/html/iraq_lies.html
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 8, 2005 at 1:42 AM
What kind of Ammo would Elmer be using Natalie…...............................................Rabbit looking up….......................Ears half raised…...................big eyes blinking innocently….............................^^........................................
On with 911, Rabbit hopes Nat and Jay, and others, are reading lots of interesting stuff from the interesting sources already given who use verifiable facts and science and things to debunk the official theory and allow us to forulate other theories which have the benefit of accounting for all the facts we do at least have.
Or at the least challenge Rabbit on the TEN big bangers, re-printed, using billions of co-operative electrons, for your perusal and consideration, so that he may source and explain their relevance,....................................Don’t make Rabbit stamp his Angry Foot…
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 8, 2005 at 2:42 AM
Rabbit,
I’m preparing to delve into your massive stack of “everything you know is wrong” (hey, Firesign Theatre 1974!) literature, but in the mean time, I don’t believe you’ve attempted to address the Popular Mechanics series I initially posted de-bunking most of the alternative theories about 9/11. Do you have any plans to do so?
There seems to be a couple problems with the initial story about Barbara Olson being arrested. Seems there is actually no such thing as a Polish-Austrian border, and the currency she was supposedly carrying hadn’t been legal tender since 2002.
Any further thoughts or revelations re: Barbara Olson?
P.S. Just kidding about all that kill da wabbit stuff. I certainly don’t condone killing wabbits, but that IS an awfully catchy tune, don’t you agree?
Posted by Natalie on Oct 8, 2005 at 12:28 PM
Eulogy for Elmer :
Old friends are the best friends.
Old antagonists are the best antagonists.
See you on the other side.
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 8, 2005 at 2:34 PM
Rabbit just hadn’t seen WB for twenty years is all, didn’t get the Elmer Fudd ref at first. Am not a sensitive Rabbit, actually I am the most self contained ego, nobody upsets Rabbit by their own choice, just his.
The Popular mechanics Article is not taken seriously by researchers and I will be glad to show you why. Rabbit did not realise that you expected him to even bother with it, sorry. That will be next on my posts. It is a legendary joke though and Rabbit is surprised you don’t realise it. You must not be very well informed on such issues or that Popular Mechanics is a very unreliable source for truth when dealing with major political events. It is thoroughly discredited on so many issues over the years that any engineer who tries to use it’s articles for anything but a coffee coaster is a joke. You’ll see. As for the sources you were given they include all there is to know about what happened and very few of the actual FACTS can be questioned they are what is in the public domain. The speculation and theorising which is included about the meaning of the known FACTS is important, but you will be wasting yours and our time if you begin by trying to question the theories. You are expected to verify the FACTS and query them if you feel they can be. But we will establish FACTS and then we will relate these to our opinions or theories.
Now this is a loaded dice, it cannot be denied. The dice is loaded in favour of a logical debate, and a debate which will inevitably debunk some theories while it gives support for others. That means, in a debate, someone is going to lose. That cannot be helped Natalie, since we disagree. In the end, if we are able to arrive at a better understanding of the TRUTH or even just identify LIES, or misperceptions, we will all win.
Rememeber Rabbit has his own very specific opinions. They are not standardised, or predictable. As far as what happened on 911, I am sure of several things only. The “three” WTCs did not fall to the ground simply because a plane flew into two of them. I know this without any doubt, anybody who understands even the most basic physics or engineering, or history of such things knows this.
That is not to say that there aren’t people who have qualifications who are backing the official theory. Just as with DU there are people who have a vested interest or who can be threatened into lying even. In the end it is the Majority of the opinions of the Professions which will decide, as well as simple physics in this case. The truth is that the official story has only been arrived at by ignoring some of the most enormous pieces of evidence. For example the fact that WTC 7 came down in an identical fashion. The fact that credible witnesses claimed they heard and saw explosions before and after the planes hit. On e witness has 27 others who back his story, including one who was onjured in a bomb blast before the first plane hit.
Natalie these are not just little airy fairy claims of phonecalls and records showing phonecalls were made. Such phonecalls are no more than hearsay, they prove nothing, but especially they have no bearing on whether or not the US government was involved.
Besides the phonecalls, including the Barbara Olson claims have always been questioned since they do not actually fit the official theory as outline above.
The ignoring of evidence, withholding evidence and numerous falsehoods which have been “Proven” to have been uttered, are what helps make a case for the US government’s involvment, on speculation alone. There is lots more evidence that will allow this to be taken beyond mere speculation of course. For now Rabbit is content to let the air out of the tyres of the official theory for you.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 8, 2005 at 10:31 PM
On the Barbara Olson story. It is now a couple weeks old and was actually corrected very early on about the Polish/Austrian border mistake. Now actually this in itself makes the story just a tad more believable. You see any deliberate misinfo of this scale would never have made such a basic mistake.
Now the source is Tom Flocco, and that is not a good enough reason to ignore it as some claim. These are wishful thinking because Flocco has a good track record as it happens. He is repeating something which has been told to him and since it does indeed involve intelligence agencies, unverified sources are the order of the day. Now nobody rabbit knows is seriously accepting this story at this point. However we are not so stupid as to ignore all of the reasons why it may well turn out to be true.
This is the advantage of making ones own opinions. You can collect information sometimes without having to form an opinion.
Rabbit’s opinions about 911, are simply those he is able to form from verifiable facts. This is why he did not discount the missile hitting the pentagon, nor did he accept it. The reports about radiation down wind were equally filed away. The fact of DU being in the wings of some aircraft as found by David actually makes such Radiation readings more likely does it not? this then vindicates those people who claimed there was radiation. The problems arise again however because it seems that the plane that is alleged to have struck the Pentagon would not have had such DU counterweights, but a military A3 would have. This is interesting, because the wheels seen at the pentagon site are more likely to be an A3, in fact a carrier based one from the size of radius to diameter. The engine shown in pictures at thje pentagon would also have suited an A3. The engine in the picture at the pentagon is certainly too small and wrong design for a 737 (Sorry if the model wrong, means flight 77)
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 8, 2005 at 10:45 PM
Anyone who wants to see a recent re-hash and re-examination of details should see here, it is very well referenced and sourced.
————————————-
FBI Claims 84 Videos Show NO Flight 77 Impact
.............Of course they don’t.. Nothing to see here folks, move along….............There are no planes on the videos so nobody needs to see them.
That is probably enough for Natalie? Is it OK that the FBI just says nothing to see and withholds the evidence? Rabbit was of the opinion that US courts were the law, the FBI is only there to enforce the law, not dictate terms by which things shall be established or not.
http://www.rense.com/general67/fbicl.htm
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 8, 2005 at 10:52 PM
POPULAR MECHANICS.
Rabbit read the Popular Mechanic article when it first came out, and independantly came to all the same conclusions as follows. The most obvious thing to Rabbit was that most of the “Alternative theories” they were debunking, were not widely held and were already considered to be disinformation by many of us then. So these clown set up an strw man and proceeded to attack it, without even much success then as I recall, Rabbit is as mentioned not altogether foreign to exngineering and physics and on these points alone they show ignorance.
We can deal with each of the Popular Mechanics 16 points, but most of them are simply not relevant, because they are not views held by Rabbit or any serious 911 truth seekers.
The following source is posted because it gives background on the author of the article, and the ownership of the “Rag” concerned. Both points which will be seen as relevant.
Don’t wait for the MP3 download unless you care to listen to Alex blathering on. Relevant too, but Rabbit can’t stand the accent sorry. Maybe it is easier for Yanks to listen to.
http://www.prisonplanet.tv/audio/090305alexresponds.htm
——————————————————-
The Hearst-owned Popular Mechanics magazine takes aim at the 9/11 Truth Movement (without ever acknowledging it by that name) with a cover story in its March 2005 edition. Sandwiched between ads and features for monster trucks, NASCAR paraphernalia, and off-road racing are twelve dense and brilliantly designed pages purporting to debunk the myths of 9/11.
The article’s approach is to identify and attack a series of claims which it asserts represent the whole of 9/11 skepticism. It gives the false impression that these claims, several of which are clearly absurd, represent the breadth of challenges to the official account of the flights, the World Trade Center attack, and the Pentagon attack. Meanwhile it entirely ignores vast bodies of evidence showing that only insiders had the means, motive, and opportunity to carry out the attack.
The article gives no hint of the put options on the targeted airlines, warnings received by government and corporate officials, complicit behavior by top officials, obstruction of justice by a much larger group, or obvious frauds in the official story. Instead it attacks a mere 16 claims of its choosing, which it asserts are the “most prevalent” among “conspiracy theorists.” The claims are grouped into topics which cover some of the subjects central to the analysis of 9-11 Research. However, for each topic, the article presents specious claims to divert the reader from understanding the issue. For example, the three pages devoted to attacking the Twin Towers’ demolition present three red-herring claims and avoid the dozens of points I feature in my presentations, such as the Twin Towers’ Demolition.
The article brackets its distortion of the issues highlighted by 9/11 skeptics with smears against the skeptics themselves, whom it dehumanizes and accuses of “disgracing the memories” of the victims.
More important, it misrepresents skeptics’ views by implying that the skeptics’ community is an undifferentiated “army” that wholly embraces the article’s sixteen “poisonous claims,” which it asserts are “at the root of virtually every 9/11 alternative scenario.” In fact much of the 9/11 truth community has been working to expose many of these claims as disinformation.
http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/pm/
—————————————————————-
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 8, 2005 at 11:32 PM
http://batr.org/911/2005.03.01_arch.html
This is an excellent site, very information intensive and it deals with the Popular Mechanics article in it’s historical perspective. The rest of the site is worth looking at if you intend to sriously challenge Rabbit. Be aware Natalie that Rabbit has the advantage of probably having read everything you have, but a whole lot more besides. Rabbit has a huge advantage, and he is not boasting about it. Rabbit is a sportsman, and would prefer a challenging hunt any day. You are being advised to be better armed. Of course if you are capable of having an open mind, you will be unable to maintain your present ideas about 911 after having gone through the things you have already been given above. Not just checking they exist, but reading them, questioning the facts they present if you can and form an opinion about what is written, not just about who wrote it. Rabbit has said it before Nat. No qualifications are needed to tell the truth.
I already know how open minded and yet sceptical a group of people the 911 truth movement is. We don’t have all the answers, but we have a hell of a lot more than those who believe the official THEORY. We can absolutely, there is no question the official theory is dead in the water. Babe it didn’t even float at launch. It went straight off the slip hit the water and kept going down until it hit bottom. There it has remained. Except the bottom has continued to rise adn the ship of Lies is nearly buried by the silt of actual evdience which has continued to trickle out.
It is sad to think so many are first going to wake up to the lies when they read the Neo-con JUNTA has been charged with the whole shebang. Organising, paying for and allowing 911 to happen as it did. Then will follow the illegal wars which were launched on the basis of lies and down it will come…..............
Natalie the MSM in America has started to wake up to the fact that a watergate style event is about to burst upon the scene. That is happening right now. You are in for a hell of a lot more than that before this is over, don’t trust me. Just sit back and wait, it won’t be long now.
http://www.thinkprogress.org/leak-scandal
—————————————————————-
When Popular Mechanics set out to “debunk the myths” surrounding the events of 9/11 they ignored the myth created and propagated by the US government itself.
One of the wilder stories circulating about Sept 11 ... is that it was carried out by 19 fanatical Arab hijackers, masterminded by an evil genius named Osama bin Laden, with no apparent motivation other than that they “hate our freedoms.”
Never a group of people to be bothered by facts, the perpetrators of this cartoon fantasy have constructed an elaborately woven web of delusions and unsubstantiated hearsay in order to promote this garbage across the internet and the media to the extent that a number of otherwise rational people have actually fallen under its spell. ...
These crackpots even contend that the extremist Bush regime was caught unawares by the attacks, had no hand in organizing them, and actually would have stopped them if it had been able. Blindly ignoring the stand-down of the US Air Force, the insider trading on airline stocks
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 8, 2005 at 11:54 PM
Where is the MONK?
.............................................^^............................................
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 9, 2005 at 12:02 AM
Natlaie and Jay, please have a look at this source before you go further because it is just in and it’s a beauty. If there is anything about the article whichyou don’t understand Rabbit will be glad to explain it in very simple words. ...................All ineterested parties have a look at this lovely effort by the WRH team.
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wtc7.html
Hoppity hop says Rabbit, that site is the best on WTC 7 yet seen. Concise, it is concise, and to the point….......
Here it is again….
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wtc7.html
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 9, 2005 at 1:44 AM
Now this is getting really good.
That was an excellent bit of work and good, clear writing, Rabbit. Thanks!
I am involved in necessary distractions lately and haven’t been able to engage much, but I check in regularly. Spent some time writing last night, but somehow all was lost when I submitted it. Perhaps because I left it sitting there so long as I answered phone calls. I dunno.
Anyway, keep hopping, Rabbit. Carrots to you!
Posted by whit on Oct 9, 2005 at 8:31 AM
Published on Sunday, October 9, 2005
by The Independent
Tell Us Who Fabricated the Iraq Evidence (P1)
by Norman Dombey
President Bush’s principal adviser Karl Rove is to be questioned again over the improper naming of a CIA official. Mohamed ElBaradei, accused by the American right of being insufficiently aggressive, wins the Nobel Peace Prize for his stalwart work at the helm of the International Atomic Energy Agency. Pentagon official Larry Franklin pleads guilty to passing on classified information to Israel. Just a normal week in politics. But there is a thread linking these events and it is Iraq.
Politicians tell us they acted in good faith on the road to war, and maybe they did, but that leaves a prickly question: who was so keen to prove that Saddam Hussein was an imminent threat that they forged documents purporting to show that he was trying to buy 500 tons of uranium from Niger to develop nuclear weapons? The forgery was revealed to the Security Council by ElBaradei. That was not an intelligence error. It was a straightforward lie, an INVENTION intended to mislead public opinion and help start a war.
At the beginning of 2001, a few weeks before George Bush took office, there was a break-in at the Niger embassy in Rome. Strangely, nothing of value was taken. Months later came 9/11 and a month after that, as George Bush wondered how to get back at the terrorists, a report from the Italian security service (Sismi) reached the CIA: Iraq was seeking to buy uranium.
Disappointingly for the neocons, the CIA sent Ambassador Joseph Wilson to Niger to check the story: he reported that it was nonsense. When the story was repeated by Bush, Wilson went public. His wife, CIA agent Valerie Plame, was then outed by the White House. Hence Rove’s predicament.
An organisation called the Office of Special Plans (OSP) was set up in the Pentagon by Douglas Feith, a former consultant to Israel’s Likud party, to prepare for the war. In the words of Robert Baer, a distinguished former CIA man, it was a “competing intelligence shop at the Pentagon”...“if you didn’t like the answer you’re getting from the CIA”. In short, bogus stories would get a second chance at the OSP.
Posted by whit on Oct 9, 2005 at 5:54 PM
Tell Us Who Fabricated the Iraq Evidence (P2)
by Norman Dombey
A clue to the ancestry of these black arts can be found in 1980, when right-wing Republicans wanted Ronald Reagan elected. They publicised a story that Billy Carter, the then President Jimmy Carter’s colourful brother, had received $50,000 (
Posted by whit on Oct 9, 2005 at 5:55 PM
(P3) I meant to add towards the end of P2 some emphasis on:
“SINCE BEFORE 9-11” ...since it suggest some prior planning was afoot.
Posted by whit on Oct 9, 2005 at 5:59 PM
I have to give you credit, Rabbit, you did comprehensively address the PM article in response to my inquiry. It’s evident to me that the article was viewed as a significant credibility threat by the “what really happened” community, judging from their strenuous rebuttals to it.
In attacking the motives and credibility of the publisher and the authors of the PM article, perhaps you’ve waived your previously assumed right not to have the same directed at such sources as Alex Jones and prisonplanet.com, or Jeff Rense and Rense.com.
One complaint put forth seems to be that the PM article is mostly focused on claims that level-headed conspiracy theorists have long ago dismissed as unsupportable. That may be true for a few aspects, but most of the major current claims put forth by you, Alex and others are indeed addressed directly by PM, and quite effectively IMHO:
CLAIM: A columnist on Prisonplanet.com, a Web site run by radio talk show host Alex Jones, claims that seismic spikes are “indisputable proof that massive explosions brought down” the towers. The Web site says its findings are supported by two seismologists at the observatory, Won-Young Kim and Arthur Lerner-Lam. Each “sharp spike of short duration,” says Prisonplanet.com, was consistent with a “demolition-style implosion.”
FACT: “There is no scientific basis for the conclusion that explosions brought down the towers,” Lerner-Lam tells PM. “That representation of our work is categorically incorrect and not in context.” (he misrepresented his source)
CLAIM: Seven hours after the two towers fell, the 47-story WTC 7 collapsed. According to 911review.org: “The video clearly shows that it was not a collapse subsequent to a fire, but rather a controlled demolition.”
FACT: Many conspiracy theorists point to FEMA’s preliminary report, which said there was light damage to WTC 7 prior to its collapse. With the benefit of more time and resources, NIST researchers now support the working hypothesis that WTC 7 was far more compromised by falling debris than the FEMA report indicated. “The most important thing we found was that there was, in fact, damage to the south face of building 7,” NIST’s Sunder tells PM. “On about a third of the face to the center and to the bottom—approximately 10 stories—about 25 percent of the depth of the building was scooped out.” NIST also discovered previously undocumented damage to WTC 7’s upper stories and its southwest corner.
NIST investigators believe a combination of intense fire and severe structural damage contributed to the collapse, though assigning the exact proportion requires more research. But NIST’s analysis suggests the fall of WTC 7 was an example of “progressive collapse,” a process in which the failure of parts of a structure ultimately creates strains that cause the entire building to come down. Videos of the fall of WTC 7 show cracks, or “kinks,” in the building’s facade just before the two penthouses disappeared into the structure, one after the other. The entire building fell in on itself, with the slumping east side of the structure pulling down the west side in a diagonal collapse.
CLAIM: Conspiracy theorists insist there was no plane wreckage at the Pentagon. “In reality, a Boeing 757 was never found,” claims pentagonstrike.co.uk, which asks the question, “What hit the Pentagon on 9/11?”
FACT: Blast expert Allyn E. Kilsheimer was the first structural engineer to arrive at the Pentagon after the crash and helped coordinate the emergency response. “It was absolutely a plane, and I’ll tell you why,” says Kilsheimer, CEO of KCE Structural Engineers PC, Washington, D.C. “I saw the marks of the plane wing on the face of the building. I picked up parts of the plane with the airline markings on them. I held in my hand the tail section of the plane, and I found the black box.” Kilsheimer’s eyewitness account is backed up by photos of plane wreckage inside and outside the building.
Posted by Natalie on Oct 9, 2005 at 7:33 PM
Rabbit trys to remember to copy his posts before hitting the Submit button. Often the most work is the one he forgets, and boing, the electrons escape and run off into the ethers. No returns when this happens and if one considers it there is an explanation.
Probably filters in the system, ITTs or “THEM” which re-routs whole posts into a one way door. Who or what is behind the door?
Rabbit has a computer which he values for it’s virtual imperviousness to hacking. This comptuter crashes in response to anything unexpected. Quite handy because several hacking attempts have been averted and detected that way. If Rabbit even thinks in a certain mood, the thing crashes I swear. Yet it hardly ever crashes for Rabbit, unless as said something weirds the computer out. Then it hits the floor with it’s poor wee cyber arms over it’s cyber head. Rabbit must pick it up gntly and coax it back into life, after which it tells Rabbit all about the scary thing it felt in the darkness. Much is darkness to such a small computer.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 9, 2005 at 8:00 PM
Now Natalie stop the waffling exercise about the PM article. Rabbit was familiar with it as said and knows from his own study of it years ao it is rubbish as shown.
Now it is not normally considered good form or much point in attacking the credibility of the author or publication, but it is by no means a blanket rule. If as in this case it shows the magazine is of a certain bias, and that the author is also, “AND” that they have not actually made any contribution except to build and demolish straw men. Rabbit already sadi we can go through the PM’s random assortment of claims, but most of theme will be moot since neither Rabbit nor any othet sensible people maintain such views anyway.
The comparison to Prisonplanet and Rense and ICH is totally wasted. First by referring to Jones and Prisonplanet as separate you “PROOVE” you hjave never even looked at the sites mentioned. If you did you would discover why Rabbit goes into paroxysms of laughter (Truly) everytime someone attacks the sites’ integrity. they are “Collections” of articles, sourced from all over the net and the world. Some are opinon pieces and as often as not include a rebuttal from “one of yours”. The opinion peices are sometimes in house and sometimes from others, including thousands of writers. Nobody gets anything published by those sites which does not check out in the first round. No un-referenced submissions, they are selective in terms of quality but Rense in particular shows restraint in making own views felt. Jones is a lot more flamboyant and opinionated, but his opinions are shared by more people than share yours probably. The proof is in the pudding Natalie, the PM article doesn’t address anything of significance it was produced as a generic challenge to alternative theories about 911 and as such never made a scrap of difference, both because of obvious ommissions and equally obvious over emphasis placed upon totally irrelevant and minor details. The thing is, even though it was discredited for all the above reasons, it yet failed to address itself to any serious alternative theory or the evidence upon which they are formed. Some like your self have continued to quote it, in the hopes it will fool someone who knows no better, but it has never withstood any challenges and those few challenges offerred were but the tip of the iceberg.
It did not actually bother anyone in the Truth movement. You mistake the thorough response by many like ICH, WRH, JONES and dozens more as meaning it was important. It was simply being thoroughly debunked and as such it is the closest anyone has ever come to mounting any sort of challenge to the 911 truth movement.
Do not assume that because Rabbit posts one or another source that he is being particularly selective, there are many more to choose from.
The proof is in the pudding, Facts, established, Opinions built upon Facts are at least reasonable. Opinions, Theories which fly in the face of FACTS are dead, undefendable.
Natalie, you are going to have to be more careful about saying things like…....Alex Jones said that the seismic spikes are “
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 9, 2005 at 9:02 PM
Natalie you are stubbirnly using that word FACT to describe opinion again.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 9, 2005 at 9:11 PM
Natalie your claims from NIST investigators are just that. They have been successfully challenged in the last reference I gave you and I mean successfully. You are suffering from the terminal disease of believing everything a government claims is the truth. History alone shows this to be LUNACY.
Not that Rabbit merely doubts just because the Government says it. If what they say is not consistent with reality, then Rabbit feels quite justified. In the case of 911, not even other governments believe the USA. Did Nat know the EU and individual nations have lodged official refusals to accept the 911 official story? That is an uncommon step, very uncommon. There was a bit of that about WACO as it happens too.
Nat stop the waffling, you do not have to quote what other say about “Many conspiracy theorists point to FEMA
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 9, 2005 at 9:30 PM
Hi Whit.
Rabbit dropped a good article on another thead. Thorough statement of Iran situation in context. Here it is. It is a distilled version of what Rabbit has been saying about these things for a while.
Edging to Disaster with Iran.
http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_mike_whi_051007_edging_towards_disas.htm
by Mike Whitney
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 9, 2005 at 9:49 PM
These are a LOT of awfully smart people to try to hide a deliberate implosion operation from:
“These experts in tall building design, steel structure behavior, fire protection engineering, blast effects, and structural investigations were impaneled on a building performance assessment team (BPAT). This BPAT was sponsored by a partnership of FEMA, SEI/ASCE, the state of New York, the New York City Department of Design and Construction, and the Structural Engineers Association of New York. The team was also supported by the National Council of Structural Engineers Associations, the National Fire Protection Association, the Society of Fire Protection Engineers, the American Concrete Institute, the American Institute of Steel Construction, the Masonry Society, the Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat, and the National Institute of Standards and Technology.”
http://www.pubs.asce.org/ceonline/ceonline02/0502feat.html
(don’t forget to close those URL spaces!) Ahem, ITT.
Engineers are some of the most independent, practically minded people I’ve known. They are not typically subject to bribery, or likely to participate in cover-ups. Integrity would be my vote for the word that best describes their core characteristic. I happen to have several of them in my immediate family, and while they all to a person happen to hate GWB with a passion, non of them subscribe to the notion that he, or agents of the U.S. government were complicit in the events of 9/11. It simply doesn’t add up to them from an engineering, evidentiary or common sense standpoint.
I have to assume now, that you must also believe the first attempt to topple the Twin Towers in 1993 was carried out by, or with the knowledge, consent and/or help of the U.S. Government. Do you have any information or speculation on THAT event?
Posted by Natalie on Oct 9, 2005 at 10:36 PM
Rabbit,
“Edging Towards Disaster with Iran” by Mike Whitney is the article you recommended, right? The URL only got me as far as OpEd home page, but I found and read this article, which was insightful and informative.
Yes, I believe that the neo-cons have the intent of taking over Iran as well. It borders and intersects (falls partly within) the ‘golden triangle’ that contains 60% of the worlds recoverable oil. I would hope that the evil neo-con agenda falls apart before they can realize their plan. We’ve screwed the Iranians around enough. They deserve a chance to work out their problems and establish their society without our undermining interference. We’ll have to see how it all plays out. Will America’s military/industrial shadow-government take control of the entire Middle East?
Posted by whit on Oct 10, 2005 at 12:49 AM
Natalie your last point first,
“I have to assume now, that you must also believe the first attempt to topple the Twin Towers in 1993 was carried out by, or with the knowledge, consent and/or help of the U.S. Government. Do you have any information or speculation on THAT event?”
.......What the hell are you talking about. Why must I believe this? Why must Rabbit have any opinion about it? You are certainly determined to go off on tangents when you can;t deal with facts.
Your source will be dealt with next, but it actually doesn’t prove anything if it is taken as gospel. It is still opinion, and it is well and truly challenged.
The thing is you silly girl, no qualifications are needed to study and understand the significance of what are wholly provable facts.
What part about the following do you fail to follow the significance of?
If Natalie has Engineers in her family as has Rabbit, (half his wifes family are engineers, Danish Engineers and among the best in the world as it happens) So what. Why don’t you ask them to explain the significance of the following. Assuming as it appears it is beyond your limited understanding.
1.Each WTC building collapse occurred at virtually free-fall speed (approximately 10 seconds or less).
2.Each building collapsed, for the most part, into its own footprint.
3.Virtually all the concrete (an estimated 100,000 tons in each tower) on every floor was pulverized into a very fine dust, a phenomenon that requires enormous energy and could not be caused by gravity alone (”
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 10, 2005 at 1:39 AM
Deal with the facts, stop quoting generic shill swill at the Rabbit. Ask someone to explain gravity to you Nat, that is the first step in understanding that there is a spedd at which those buildings could have fallen at, if gravity alone was responsible for their collapse. It is a very solid FACT, Natalie, Gravity is an old established Fact, among Earth residents.
It may surprise you to know Natalie, that Gravity is constant. It has a measured constant value, and via this we can calculate how fast something will fall. It matters not how heavy the thing is as it happens. Ask one of those engineere relatives to explain it to you. Or a highschool kid who is paying attention in science. They can explain to you why if you drop a stone weighing 10 grams and a steel beam weighing 10 tons from the same height at the same time they will both hit the ground at the same time.
If there is nothing at all to slow the fall, or speed it up that is how long it will take any object to fall a given distance. If there is air resistance, eg: a Feather, or leaf, which is usually a consequence of mass versus surface area, or if some other force acts to even partially counterract the force of gravity the speed of descent will be reduced. The acceleration reduced, or stopped. In the case of a standing building the force of Gravity is in obeyance. Fully counterracted.
In the case of free fall there is nothing at all to counterract the forces. Like for instance, walls, steel structures and all the “Stuff” that goes into making a Skyscraper of the scale of the WTCs.
The buildings came down at virtually free fall speed, one or more may actually have come down faster tha free fall, and a “perfect demolition would do that.
NOTHING ELSE COULD POSSIBLY HAVE BROUGHT DOWN THREE BUILDINGS IN A ROW AT EVEN CLOSE TO FREE FALL SPEED, let alone even faster.
Rabbit says so…..............................................GOD SAYS SO
By the way Rabbit fails to understand your problems with URLS on ITT they always work for him.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 10, 2005 at 1:41 AM
Natalie would you mind not introducing anymore topics into this discussion until you been courtious enough to have dealt with rabbit’s posts thus far. They include some very specific statements, all of which ahve immens bearing on the issue, and most of which you are ignoring.. You will note please Rabbit answers your every point and always has, actually.
You will complain about time, well it is you who is disseminating my little chicken. We are about four pages into rabbit repaeating the same points and none of them have been dealt with, they are even numbered, and they have been repeated in full three times. Does Natalie understand what is meant by Dissemination?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 10, 2005 at 1:47 AM
Even an average demo would have brought them down at almost free fall, a little faster is sharp work.
As for constantly bleating “But such a huge hoax could never have been perpetrated on so many people and so many experts in the world”
My dear Natalie, it has not been successfully perpetrated, that is the whole reason we are able to debate this with such a wealth of well argued material at hand. The whole fraud has never convinced more than half the people and that number is dwindled way below half now.
Even though an enormous effort has gone into perpetrating and covering up this crime, the evidence of the truth is still overwhelming as you will see. The entire structural evidence from all the crime scenes was disposed of contrary to any normal investigative procedures and its disposal has itself raised serious issues of obstruction of justice issues. The New York Fire Brigade has active and former members involved in actions which ar revealing more lies by governments and more cover-ups.
As for people coming forward, damn right they would, and that is why it is important to consider the stories of the MANY people who have come forward to prove the government complicity and conspiracy. Your theories about 19 Suicide Hijackers omits the 7 live “Hijackers” who were not even in the US. It omits the fact that tere is no evidence to put most of them on the flights, none at all, and this is odd since records about plane flights is normally pretty complete. Your Conspiracy Theory is not looking good Natalie.
Rabbit has not actually contended who exactly or how they ran 911. It is virtually unknowable to Rabbit, but he is sure of enough things to have no doubt that the Government knew about it and certain forces within the government conspired to ensure it happened in much the way it did.
That is a cautious approach Natalie, not a bombastic claim, as you are so fond of trying to attribute to Rabbit. .
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 10, 2005 at 2:07 AM
Your conspiracy theory relies on bits and pieces of “circumstantial” evidence, much of which is contradictory in itself. These small quite insignificant of themselves, parts are somehow woven into a fantastical fairy tale, which could only happen in the movies, with the usual hollywood penchant for exaggeration and simplification.
The Fact that the normal laws of physics and decades of experience with fires, buildings and airplanes has to be ignored for the GRAND CONSPIRACY THEORY to exist is just nothing.
Natalie, who has Engineers in her Family, knows.
She will know post some blindingly simple probably off topic reply, which will make GOD and Rabbit, blink bemusedly and look at each other hopelessly.
Go and do this experiment for Rabbit Natalie, take a hairpin, a girl is bound to have a hair pin about, and a Rock. In fact take a hair pin and an IRON if you prefer. Take them up to the second story of a building, and drop them both at the same time. This is an important experiment, to help Natalie understand, the COMPLICATED science that she may otherwise feel is only the preserve of priestlike Engineers. they who hold the secrets of the universe. We must not question the engineers, they hold archaic knowledge which is beyond the fathom of ordinary mortals…Ah HA..
Rabbit shall reveal to Natalie some of the “Secrets” of the Engineers, but she must not tell others, no the secrets must be kept.
Another experiment but more basic which should at least partially prepare you for the results of the other experiment, Stand on a Chair, in the middle of the floor and on soft carpet. Not too soft or the chair might fall over.
Step off the chair and observe what happens.
You may wish to repeat this experiment several times to verify that the results are consistent.. Rabbit predicts that you will fall to the floor each and every time, imediately you place your self at the mercy of gravity. Don’t just argue with Rabbit about this, or just ignore the fact, go and prove it to your self, so you will be better able to relate what we are talking about to real life that way. We will try and do this expreriment with the aid of a pillow, or a bean bag later, but that is stage two of the explanation, little Natalie.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 10, 2005 at 2:28 AM
A small critique, Rabbit, sir,
I think you meant dissemble, not disseminate. You are disseminating; scattering seeds. Natalie is dissembling; avoiding the issues raised by those seeds.
One engineering aspect of the collapse I haven’t seen addressed is the obvious tipping of the upper stories of at least one tower at the initial failure. If the building was ‘pancaking’, even if you somehow believe it progressed at free fall speeds, the resistance of the lower floors would have imparted a lateral component of force to cause the upper section to tumble, breaking free of the rest of the building. This obviously didn’t happen. The other aspect of this tilt is that it means the upper section and the lower section would only contact each other on at most an outside edge of their cross section, thus imparting unequal force over the whole, making the pancaking theory problematic.
Natalie: In spite of the impressive list of lettered associations in your asce post, it is on its face an ad hoc argument. That is, it is cherry-picking evidence to support an a priori hypothesis, rather than building the hypothesis from the whole set of assembled evidence. Much of the evidence is mere supposition based on what must have happened in order to support the theory, as they implicitly admit by listing the matters that require more research.
That being said, my own interest is not with the particular facts of this case (there is plenty evidence of criminal malfeasance on the part of the Bush Administration without it), but how the controversy is symptomatic of how overweening state secrecy interferes with the average citizen’s ability to be reasonably informed. This is not a problem that sprung into existence on 9/11/01. If you are sincerely curious about what our government might be concealing from you, I have a book for you. It is written by a senior editor of Jane’s Defense Weekly; not a wild eyed ‘conspiracy nut’ by anyone’s standard.
“The Hunt for Zero Point: Inside the Classified World of Antigravity Technology”
by Nick Cook
Check it out and I guarantee your view of ‘conspiracy theories’ and ‘classified secrets’ will be forever altered.
Posted by luminous beauty on Oct 10, 2005 at 7:35 AM
Rabbit:
I’ve had your problem with losing posts. It appears to happen when I open another site in the same window. When I go back to the ITT page then hit ‘submit’ my post doesn’t get printed. I’ve found if I back click to the previous page, I can copy my post, click forward, paste and submit. I hope this is helpful.
Posted by luminous beauty on Oct 10, 2005 at 7:47 AM
Rabbit, when the court cases claiming deliberate demolition are heard and the US Govt is found guilty, I presume you and the plaintaiffs will consider yourself vindicated and your charges validated.
Would it be similar to the vindication and validation these people felt?
http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1051121852966
Posted by Natalie on Oct 10, 2005 at 10:20 AM
“Although these experts provided few actual facts of any material support that Iraq actually provided, their opinions, coupled with their qualifications as experts on this issue, provide a sufficient basis for a reasonable jury to draw inferences which could lead to the conclusion that Iraq provided material support to al Qaeda.”
I can’t help but think you aren’t getting what Rabbit is saying about the difference between facts and opinions, Natalie.
What I found especially meaningful in its absence from that story, is any mention of defense rebuttal, or defense witnesses testifying, or indeed any defense legal representation.
I, myself, would feel little vindication from what looks like a kangaroo court.
Posted by luminous beauty on Oct 10, 2005 at 10:48 AM
signing off
Posted by Jay Cline on Oct 10, 2005 at 11:02 AM
“For example, the continued repetition that 9/11 was orchestrated by high level US officials without providing a shred of evidence. “
There are mountains of evidence. If you refuse to look at the evidence, whose fault is that?
Thousands of people have been shouting about this for four years. There are dozens of books, thousands of articles, thousands of websites.
They aren’t all correct. They aren’t all complete, as a massive coverup has been underway. However, there are a number of irrefutable facts about 9-11 that most researchers agree on.
And I’m not going to give you a year’s worth of education in the space of this posting. You have a computer. Fucking use it.
Posted by johndoraemi on Oct 10, 2005 at 4:09 PM
The acceleration rate of any object (regardless of weight) is 15 feet per second per second. (in a vacuum)
second one = 15 ft
second two = 30 ft
second three = 45, etc.
Posted by whattheheck on Oct 10, 2005 at 5:12 PM
“I have to assume now, that you must also believe the first attempt to topple the Twin Towers in 1993 was carried out by, or with the knowledge, consent and/or help of the U.S. Government. Do you have any information or speculation on THAT event?”
Does the NY Times count?
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wtcbomb.html
Natalie, I’m going to assume that you’re genuine. You have a lot to learn about the way the US government operates.
Who Bombed the U.S. World Trade Center?
Posted by johndoraemi on Oct 10, 2005 at 5:29 PM
Thanks Luminous Beauty, Rabbit really should have a dictionary handy, at home computer I have and occasionally double check a word not used much before. Rabbit has been going for a couple of weeks with that mistake. Dissemble
Spelling is another issue of course. Trouble is Rabbit can type VERY fast with his two paws and the few seconds spellcheck sorts out the common mistake with left and right paws wrong order. The letters are usually there, but need to be re-arranged. No spellcheck here. It is Rabbit’s hard to copy “signature” though and I like the security it gives. Living in some trepidation of a False Rabbit turning up one of these days.
The problem with losing posts we are talking about is different. The type you are talking of is known and as you say one can return to the previous page and copy. But, this one actually goes forever. No retrieval, Going to previous page is blank in comments. For Rabbit it seems to happen especially when he tries to set out the precise way in which the WTCs would have been demolished. The technical details are much more clear and there are a lot of words which could be suspect, epecially in combination. The feeling for me is that it is some some of “security system”. There is a time lapse involved when the posts go like this and everything seems in order until the page pops up, minus your post. I’ve even copied the whole post, only to have the computer crash in place of losing the post, on those two occasions. If it sounds weird it is, but Rabbit admits this computer is a weird one too. It can crash easily if one asks too much of it, without warning. It also crashes when anybody tries to hack into it. This has proven to be such a useful side effect that Rabbit just lets it be.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 10, 2005 at 6:21 PM
WTH has got the Gravity idea. Actually Rabbit knows it as 0.98 meters/ second/second
This relates to how fast Gravity alone would have pulled those buildings down. It gives a theoretical figure. The figure pressupposes there is no counterforce being offerred.
By now Natalie should have jumped off the chair a few times and noticed the predictable result, that she falls down. Hopefully having proved to herself with the pin and the Iron that Gravity is constant and does not care how heavy something is, she is ready for the next experiment.
Place a thick pillow, or a beanbag, or several pillows between the floor and where you are stepping off the chair.
A table or higher place would be better, but Rabbit does not want Natalie to hurt herself.
Now you can step onto the cushion and observe the difference it makes to haow fast you hit the floor. You may have to repeat the experiment a few times to get the feel of it. You could also step into a pool full of water, and see what difference this makes.
The point of this?
Well, there was a bit more substantial resistance to the collapsing WTCs especially at the outset, than a few pillows or some water.
This is why anybody with a gram of sense has to conclude that there is no way that THREE buildings in a row all managed to hit the ground as if there was no structural resistance whatsoever. Not even the resistance a coloumn of Jelly would have presented.
It is in the timings. Rabbit thinks that a precise analysis of all the timings will actually show at least one of the buildings exceeded free fall speed. That one is the BIG DADDY ELEPHANT. The BIG RED ONE, in amongst all those Pink ones.
Here is some recent stuff worth looking at. Looking a bit more at Giuliani, and especially Silverstein. Zakheim gets a mention too.
http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=consp_911&Number=293499967
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 10, 2005 at 6:38 PM
Thankyou John, Rabbit has been hoping you would come and take some of the load off.
Shall we go into Rodriguez in detail, for the benefit of those playing at home?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 10, 2005 at 6:41 PM
An introduction to William Rodriguez, Natalie.
——————————————————————-
WORLD TRADE CENTER RESCUE HERO SUES BUSH AND OTHERS UNDER RICO STATUTE,
ALLEGES WILLFUL COMPLICITY IN ATTACKS THAT KILLED 3,000.
By Margaret Atheling Rowe
PHILADELPHIA, PA, OCTOBER 22, 2004
On September 11, 2001, William Rodriguez, a maintenance worker at the World Trade Center in Manhattan, single-handedly rescued fifteen people. The only employee with the master key to the North Tower staircases, he led firefighters up the stairs, unlocking doors as he went, aiding in the evacuation of hundreds of additional people who, but for his efforts, might have perished. Although his job description did not include saving lives, Rodriguez re-entered the building three times after the first plane struck, and was the last person to exit the North Tower alive. He survived the collapse of the North Tower by diving beneath a fire truck to avoid the avalanche of concrete and steel. After onsite treatment for his injuries, Rodriguez plunged right back into rescue efforts at the site. At dawn the next morning, Rodriguez returned to Ground Zero from his home in Jersey City, to continue to aid in rescue efforts.
Later, Rodriguez became an unofficial spokesman for survivors, among other things helping to secure an amnesty for undocumented aliens, many of them Latinos, and in the creation of the World Trade Center Memorial Fund. Although he lost his job of 19 years and his means of livelihood
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 11, 2005 at 2:58 AM
Attorney Berg acknowledges that Rodriguez
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 11, 2005 at 3:00 AM
The truth is that there is no definitive evidence that there were any Arabs on those planes, and even less proof concerning the supposed identities of the alleged hijackers.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 11, 2005 at 3:16 AM
“On September 6-7, 2001, 4,744 put options (a speculation that stock prices will go down) are purchased on United Air Lines stock. There are only 396 call options (speculation that the stock will go up) at the same time. Many of the United Air Lines puts are purchased through Deutschebank/AB Brown, a firm managed until 1998 by the current Executive Director of the CIA, A.B. “Buzzy” Krongard. This is reported in The New York Times and The Wall Street Journal.”
http://www.counterpunch.org/nimmo1003.html
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 11, 2005 at 8:57 PM
“Newsbytes reported on September 27, 2001, that employees of Odigo, an instant messaging company in Herzliyya, Israel, received messages warning of the attacks two hours before they occurred. Alex Diamandis, vice president of sales and marketing for Odigo, confirmed that workers in Israeli received the messages. The story was subsequently carried by CNN and Ha’aretz in Israel.”
http://www.counterpunch.org/nimmo1003.html
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 11, 2005 at 8:59 PM
“On August 11, 2001, US Navy Lt. Delmart “Mike” Vreeland, held in Toronto on U.S. fraud charges and claiming to be an officer in U.S. Naval intelligence, gave to Canadian authorities a sealed envelope. On September 14, 2001, Canadian jailers open Vreeland’s sealed envelope to find a letter detailing attacks against the WTC and Pentagon. Source: The Toronto Star, Oct. 23, 2001, and Toronto Superior Court Records.”
http://www.counterpunch.org/nimmo1003.html
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 11, 2005 at 9:00 PM
These are just a few examples of foreknowledge of 9/11.
More pieces of the puzzle.
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 11, 2005 at 9:03 PM
The “US Navy Lt. Delmart
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 11, 2005 at 9:15 PM
AND we are still only showing that the official story is a lie.
No proposals from any WILD EYED CONSPIRACY THEORISTS about what did happen, just a steady and documented listing of facts which all have a bearing on any theory, one might be proposing to develop.
Question the FACTS dittoheads, Shills and Trolls, if you can. Allow us to further prove them if we must, but deal with the facts, and then fit that into your own conspiracy theories, if you can. If you cannot, then ask us, we have a few theories as it happens about what happened.
The FACTS are not able to be questioned. You ignore instead the FACTS, and concentrate on repeating your opinions in as many guises as you can, but opinions which do not comply with the FACTS are not worth the electrons you use expressing them.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 11, 2005 at 11:47 PM
1. Each WTC building collapse occurred at virtually free-fall speed (approximately 10 seconds or less).
I’d be interested in some professional documentation of the metholody used to actually measure the speed of collapse, (for example, wouldn’t video analysis would have to include the horizontal distance from the camera to the building, the vertical angle up from horizontal, and confirmation that the video is in real time) and an explanation of exactly how one can even ascertain when the event ended, given the massive clouds of dust and debris. Why is that after presumably hours and hours of study by scores of engineers and related scientists, apparently little was found unexpected in the rate of fall, given the extremely unusual (and relatively lightweight) design of the building. Are there any other examples of a similarly designed building being knowingly deliberately demolished that one could use to compare the rates of collapse? In other words, is the rate of collapse of the WTC really THAT remarkable?
2. Each building collapsed, for the most part, into its own footprint.
This seems to be well within expectations given the design of the building. It was not one rigid structure that would be subject to “tipping over”. There was insufficient lateral force to cause the building to fall far from straight down.
3. Virtually all the concrete (an estimated 100,000 tons in each tower) on every floor was pulverized into a very fine dust, a phenomenon that requires enormous energy and could not be caused by gravity alone (”
Posted by Natalie on Oct 12, 2005 at 2:05 AM
1: No Natalie, although such confirmation is available and Rabbit shall find it for you. You only have to measure the time it takes for the building to start collapsing to the time it takes to hit ht ground. The distance is known.None of those other funny things you mention matter.
2: Yes and no. The building would be designed to collapes into it’s own footprint and as Rabbit has before said it would by about the halfway point have probably levelled out to a uniform collapse, for reasons which can be detailed but which could be taken on faith if one considers the desirability of this type of design even. This does not explain why the things fell so evenly from the start as they did. The design we are talking about would have ensured continued resistance at every point which was not subject to catastrophic force at the same time. Parts would have resisted and the collapse would have begun uneven, this would have evened itself out by some point as the momentum of the collapsing mass became a sufficiently powerful battering ram. This point would not have been able to be reached in an instant as even a casual timing of the events shows has happened.
3: All the specifications for the building materials is available and nobody has raised a credible defence to any of these claims in several years, if Nat would like to try on this particular issue, be my guest. Rabbit doubts it will get you anywhere, since it seems unlikely you are the first to think of it. As far as testing the actual remains, that is impossible of course because they were disposed of in an uncommon and questionable fashion by the government. Obstruction of justice is what it is usually called. se some of the links already given.
4: But Natalie, one does not expect to see those Explosions happening 30 floors below the point of collapse.
5: Go and have a look at other buildings which have collapsed and stop quoting a discredited document. The process you have just described has no bearing on the lengths of the columns or how they were connected.
These are just generic statements, which pretend that certain information such as photo and video evidence, as well as archival evidence do not allow certain things like how the collapse looked, or how the buildings were constructed, to be known.
Natalie, READ everything you have been given.
Nitpicking these bits and pieces while ignoring the overall picture is weird, even if Rabbit is used to you by now.
PRIORITIES.—GRAVITY. VIDEOS. WITNESSES. MONEY…......
No apologies necessary, your least is as good as your best and that is enough for Rabbit anytime, bittersweet Natalie. Do the rest of the posts and Rabbit will give you some Witnesses to consider afterwards.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 12, 2005 at 2:38 AM
By the way, back on 1: again, does Natalie know what seismic records are?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 12, 2005 at 2:40 AM
Has Natalie tried jumping onto pillows yet?
That will be necessary before we get into times of collapse too.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 12, 2005 at 2:42 AM
David:
Thanks for the Nimmo/Baraka link. I followed it to the original poem and Baraka’s reply to NJ’s governor’s cowardly demands. Too bad J. Cline isn’t reading this, since he has expressed his disdain of poetry. I found the conclusion of the essay especially compelling:
“
Posted by luminous beauty on Oct 12, 2005 at 7:38 AM
>1:
Posted by Natalie on Oct 12, 2005 at 9:49 AM
Luminous Beauty,
Glad you liked the Nimmo article, found the Baraka poem and liked it too. Here’s a little taste to tempt others.
Somebody Blew Up America
by AMIRI BARAKA
Somebody Blew Up America
They say its some terrorist,
some barbaric
A Rab,
in Afghanistan
It wasn’t our American terrorists
It wasn’t the Klan or the Skin heads
Or the them that blows up nigger
Churches, or reincarnates us on Death Row
It wasn’t Trent Lott
Or David Duke or Giuliani
Or Schundler, Helms retiring
.. excerpted from ..
http://www.counterpunch.org/poem1003.html
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 12, 2005 at 3:13 PM
I hear a lot of silence on all that 9-11 evidence I posted yesterday.
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
CAPTAIN KARIN DESHORE
INTERVIEW DATE NOVEMBER 7 2001
First collapse:
“THERE WAS NO AIR. WHATEVER THIS EXPLOSION WAS SIMPLY SUCKED ALL THE OXYGEN OUT OF THE AIR. YOU COULDNT BREATHE AND THE FEELING OF SUFFOCATION, I CANT EXPLAIN NO FURTHER ON THAT.”
Second collapse:
“SOMEWHERE AROUND THE MIDDLE OF THE WORLD
TRADE CENTER THERE WAS THIS ORANGE AND RED FLASH COMING OUT. INITIALLY IT WAS JUST ONE FLASH. THEN THIS FLASH JUST KEPT POPPING ALL THE WAY AROUND THE BUILDING AND THAT BUILDING HAD STARTED TO EXPLODE. THE POPPING SOUND, AND WITH EACH POPPING SOUND IT WAS INITIALLY AN ORANGE AND THEN RED FLASH CAME OUT OF THE BUILDING AND THEN IT WOULD JUST GO ALL AROUND THE BUILDING ON BOTH SIDES AS FAR AS I COULD SEE. THESE POPPING SOUNDS AND THE EXPLOSIONS WERE GETTING BIGGER, GOING BOTH UP AND DOWN AND THEN ALL AROUND THE BUILDING”
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/met_WTC_histories_full_01.html
I like David Ray Griffin’s take on 9-11 as well:
WMV
http://www.911busters.com/911_new_video_productions/WMV/DR_Griffin_Madison.wmv
MOV
http://www.911busters.com/911_new_video_productions/MOV/DR_Griffin_Madison.mov
Posted by johndoraemi on Oct 12, 2005 at 6:14 PM
-ps-
Natalie:
The steel didn’t melt.
That is a lie.
Jet fuel can’t melt steel. The fires didn’t burn long enougn. The South Tower had most of its fuel ejected in a massive fireball at the impact of the plane. The South Tower fire was under control and about to be extinguished when the people responsible started the explosive chain reaction and made the tower disappear forever.
That’s what happened. If you refuse, for psychological reasons, to accept the possibility, then there’s not much point discussing.
Posted by johndoraemi on Oct 12, 2005 at 6:18 PM
1] You have not seen very many videos of it Natalie. You are simply wrong about the end not being visible. Rememeber the seismics again to. There is also sound on some of the videos which make it easier yet to judge.
The times for collapse are known, established, and no question actually. Have not yet taken the time to find them, but shall do.
2] Nothing about counterweights heard before no. It still makes no difference, because the force of gravity does not take the weight, or mass into account. The tilting was as you say noticeable at the start, but it righted itself in such a way that only complete and even collapse of the entire understory could have been responsible. The tilting you mentioned was momentary and looks like it fell towards a weakened corner slightly quicker, but the rest of the building was following and continued to catch up within a couple of stories.
Even more important though Natalie, this only happened on the one of the buildings. Yet they both still fell at the same rates as each other and in IDENTICAL fashion. They also both fell at the same rate as WTC 7. The building which nobody in Shill land even wants to talk about. It is understandable that the official story ignores WTC 7, as if it never was there.
By the way the idea of counterweights offsetting windage is the wackiest theory Rabbit has ever heard. You do need to do some basic physics comprehension. Do the chair pillow thing, it will eventually make sense. Actually Rabbit thought last night , a cardboard box would be a better experiment for our purposes. You will take slightly longer to reach the ground as some of your momentum is checked by the initial resistance of the box.
3] Natalie, there are many more people who do not believe the official theory than who do. Just in NEW YORK alone, fifty percent of the people believe the government is lying. One of the polls has been given somewhere already. There is simply no credible challenge to the theories we are looking at. All the main and certainly the only credible challenges are directed at the official Conspiracy Theory. No point trying to pretend we are a small band of looneys. Nat the tide is already high but is rising on a daily basis. You must not get much news around where you live. You are actually the small and dwindling band of looneys who still cling to the official lie. God only knows why, because the whole box of lies is so transparent and it is literally going to court cases right now which should see the whole case on these matters closed, sooner rather than later. You remind Rabbit of some little girl with her plastic bucket and spade, desperately working to keep up the wall she has built to keep back the tide. The tide is coming up darling, and it is going right around the edges of your wall. You just can’t build a wall long enough or big enough to keep back the tide forever. What’s more dearheart, the summer is nearly over. You might have to think about changing your clothing before long.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 12, 2005 at 7:30 PM
4] Links coming up. “30 floors below you might get debris clouds breaking out. We
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 12, 2005 at 8:00 PM
Rabbit is a welder as it happens.
We use Oxy-acetylene to heat steel for bending or cutting. The stuff is expensive, and if Kerosene (Jet Fuel) could be made to burn hot enough to bend steel, don’t you think we would do it?
Even LPG is much cheaper than OXY Acetylene, and it sure as hell burns a lot hotter than Jet Fuel ever could be made to. We don’t use LPG to even heat up steel enough to bend it.
As far as the jet fuel, which was mostly incinerated in the initial fireball as John points out again, having been responsible for the collapses is concerned…............NO DICE.
Natalie says she does not wish to jump off chairs for Rabbit. How about getting a kerosene burner, you can get these good ones which can be pumped up and they supply the fuel in a fine mist in a jet burner type arrangement. This will give you a much hotter flame than what the firs in the WTC’s sustained.
Take a piece of 4-5mm thick steel angle iron (25x25mm) 1 meter long and hold the hottest part of your little jet engine up against the middle of the steel section, hold the steel horizontally, in a vice.
If you can get the steel to bend under it’s own weight in that position, you will have given the official theory more than a fair chance of being proven. *HINT* If it has not bent after a few hours, give up.
You might want to try this with LPG just as a comparison. If you do this first, you probably won’t bother trying something even cooler, like Jet Fuel.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 12, 2005 at 8:16 PM
A nail file and a gas lighter?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 13, 2005 at 12:31 AM
Hi, Rabbit,
Just checking in. Haven’t had much free time lately. I haven’t much to contribute here as I agree with almost everything you are presenting. Seems like this thread is dwindling as the forces of self-righteous pretense shrink back into their comfort zones of fearful projection, refusing to own nothing but glorious nobility and the best intentions. If only reality were so simple.
You are certainly a busy and dedicated Rabbit.
‘The word awesome occurs.
I was hoping the discussion would shift a little, back laterally towards a more philosophical/ historical/political perspective. I’m a bit out of my league on the technical aspects of experts vs. counter experts. I’ve read enough to know that the official story doesn’t seem to hold water. ‘But the technical strokes works best, I think, within the context of the larger painting.
This was actually my first experience of logging onto a reader forum of this sort and and exchanging views etc. It’s been an interesting and educational experience. If you’d care to, you might suggest other interesting site/threads where this kind of discursive engagement is going on.
Hats off… Keep on keeping on.
I wonder what happened to Jay.
Now off to my more contrete chores.
Posted by whit on Oct 13, 2005 at 7:40 AM
>3.Virtually all the concrete (an estimated 100,000 tons in each tower) on every floor was pulverized into a very fine dust, a phenomenon that requires enormous energy and could not be caused by gravity alone (”
Posted by Natalie on Oct 13, 2005 at 9:43 AM
Your tests are interesting, Rabbit, but wouldn’t one want to try harder to duplicate the conditions and the structure in the tower, on a smaller scale of course? Obviously the steel in the tower had much more weight on it than simply “its own”.
The relatively thin steel trusses were connected at each end by clips, not clamped between a vise. Why not try to duplicate the type of attachment at the ends instead of using a totally different method? Doesn’t sound very scientific to me.
Posted by Natalie on Oct 13, 2005 at 9:51 AM
Hi Whit
Rabbit has only been on and off forums over the years. Most of late and it is easy from how rabbit works. In between setting up Rotational moulding oven, and fitting Kayaks etc, is plenty time for Internet.
Your contributions have been appreciated and often highly thought of by others as well as Rabbit. This is actuallt rabbit’s favorite site since the concentration of intelligent and thoughful people is high, there are not too many and especially there are not so many articles and threads going that discussions become too diluted.
this is the main criticism of Rabbit’s other favoured hunting grounds of the moment, Washington Monthly. There are many souls and many threads, but a few very fine Rabbit friends among them too. The quality and variety of Trolls and Shills on this site, is particularly enterntaining too I might add.
They are essential to much of the best presentations of information we achieve, and this site has its moments. Rabbit is a fan.
Thinking at the moment about setting up a site which will allow certain discussions to continue, with articles being added as part of the dicussion. Keep the threads going, and develop it towards an useful conclusion. Even an action based conclusion.
There will also be a kind of zoo, where certain classic discussions will be highlighted and maximum use can be made of much of the time and effort that many of us put into this ultimately democratic process.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 13, 2005 at 6:40 PM
Nobody says that explosives were needed to pulverise the concrete, just that explosives was the most likely cause of such pulverisation. What an odd little sideline. The sort of tests you are describing are of no more necessity than the sort Rabbit is ironically suggesting you perform. The point Rabbit is trying to make is that the results of these sorts of things is very well understood. Gravity, energy all sorts of physics principles exist which make it silly for Natalie to try and prove Steel can be heated enough to be weakened by jet fuel, or that things don’t fall at a certain rate unless they are helped or hindered.
Natalie you are essentially standing and saying, “BUT has anyone done any tests to prove that “THIS” steel will not melt at the temperature of a barbecue, or that THIS structure will only fall at the speed of gravity.
As for your Speculation, on matters which are easy to establish, Rabbit will return.
Natalie, this is nitpicking, you cannot prove the buildings came down under gravity alone, you can only bring some doubt to bear on individual selected issues, you cannot deny that the explosives theory accounts for everything, INCLUDING WITNESSES. Were you maybe hoping we could get all tied up with engineering details, which can as said only show some parts of your theory stand alone, but can never DISPROVE our theory. We can disprove your theory, on several points. Not least of which is, witnesses.
As for the structure in the world trade centers, they were many tens of centimeters thick steel, and they stood upright.
Taking a much thinner, even in scale, piece of steel and holding it horizontal while heating it, will DEFINATELY subject that steel to greater stress than the WTC design allowed for. That Mini Mouse, would be obvious, even to a girl. Rabbit even suggested you try it with an even hotter flame than “your jet fuel” theory can account for. He told you to try this because he already knows how much it takes to SOFTEN metal.
The thing is the hottest flame which could have been achieved by jet fuel, in a running jet engine, would have only been enough to soften the structural steel, even without non-flammable insulation in the way, after several hours. Most of this jet fuel was incinerated by the VERY uncharacteristic explosions which resulted on impact. That can be seen in the film. The fireball can be measured, and the amount of fuel required to produce such a fireball calculated to within a few liters. PYRO’s do it all the time, on movie sets.
This was a classic pyrotechnic effect. Not once but twice, perfect fireball explosions. They had an explosive dispersant and all round ignition. Both those perfect fireballs. They looked quite normal to TV viewrs of course. They looked exactly like Plane explosions look in the movies. That is the whole point. EXPLOSIONS in the movies are not the real thing. They are pyrotechnic effects used to impress people, because actually the real thing usually lacks the grandeur. The fireball of a real fuel explosion, is one ball where the immediately available vapours ignite and then a much longer growing conflagration, in which the bulk of the fuel burns. Not anywhere as impressive as a huge fireball and smoke. The thing with real fuel explosions too is that they leave everything around burning too and this is not often the idea on a set which may have to be used over and over. The pyrotechnic effects are much more impressive and controlled. Just like the WTC ones.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 13, 2005 at 7:20 PM
A real high explosives explosion lacks much flame and smoke unless it has blown something up which gives either or both.
Fuel does not explode or all burn at once, unless it is vapourised or at least atomised (Finely dispersed)
The fireballs included most of the jet fuel, if not all. The resulting fire should not have been very hot and would have cooled quickly to a much lower temperature, within minutes at most. This would mean much more smoke of course, since most of the things left burning would be curtains and carpets and wood and plastic. This to an experienced eye is the type of fire that was seen after the initial fireballs. The amount of smoke and lack of flames visible even at the end, suggested the fires were more or less out. This would mean that the STEEL structures which may have had some heating at various, by no means all, points would have been cooling for some time before, as the fires were diminishing. By the time the smoke was thickest the buildings should have been stabilising, assuming they were ever seriously compromised structurally in the first place, which I in all sincerity…....DOUBT.
Rabbit works in Metal, is an Industrial Chemist and Pyrotechnician.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 13, 2005 at 7:20 PM
Firemen in the buildings said that the fires were out,.........WITNESSES.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 13, 2005 at 7:22 PM
The following link includes much technical detail as well as photos of the floors before concrete was poured. Notice the steel re-enforcing mesh laid out.
http://911research.wtc7.net/mirrors/guardian2/sixty-state-street/construction.htm
—————————————————————
Natalie on your comments about how scientific Rabbit’s test is , by the way. We are only testing to see if the flame from jet fuel is hot enough to weaken steel. Therefore it is eminently useful for the purpose.
Please note that Rabbit was the nerdy kid with glasses and who did great in science and biology, back in school days. Natalie was obviously not paying attention, she was probably wagging school to smoke with the bad kids behind the bike sheds. Rabbit is quite conversant with the scientific method.
—————————————————————-
Yes upon further reading of this site it has much of technical value, thanks for asking Natalie.
“Strangely, the authors of the FEMA Report “forget” to mention the 24 x 18 inch metal plates that were covered with shear studs and also set in the concrete slab. These plates (together with the 6 foot long diagonal bars and the welded and bolted truss connections) provided a strong connection between the floor slab and the perimeter wall.”
http://911research.wtc7.net/mirrors/guardian2/sixty-state-street/construction.htm
————————————————-
The following is a short entry but it makes a few calculations which do the trick. There are so many ways to PROVE the buildings were brought down with explosives, it is incredible that the lies have come this far.
http://www.serendipity.li/wot/wtc_demolition_init.htm
—————————————————-
Natalie there is so much about the engineering, for our case that it is actually a little overwhelming. There is a huge amount of sites repeating the “EXACT” offial story, word for word but with different sources, as if there are lots of arguments for the official LIES. But there really is only one. The fantastic version invented by FEMA and co.
—————————————
“Overall, it comes as a great surprise that the impact of a Boeing 767 bought down either tower. Indeed, many experts are on record as saying that the towers would survive the impact of the larger and faster Boeing 747. In this regard, see professor Astaneh-Asl’s simulation of the crash of the much, much larger and heavier Boeing 747 with the World Trade Center. Professor Astaneh-Asl teaches at the University of California, Berkeley.”
http://nerdcities.com/guardian/WTC/wtc-microsoft.htm
———————————————————-
A real experiment for you Natalie.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 13, 2005 at 11:26 PM
A bunch of different articles, all detailing clearly why the Official LIE cannot stand. From a purely engineering viewpoint.
http://911research.wtc7.net/disinfo/experts/articles/sciam01/sci_am1.html
http://www.cam.net.uk/home/nimmann/peace/explosions.htm
http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Eagar/Eagar-0112.html
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 13, 2005 at 11:39 PM
Lots of interesting info, Rabbit. I will investigate it when I have time, maybe this weekend. I especially liked the last link. Did you make another mistake in posting that one? :-)
Your implosion theory made the big time today. Someone of your same mind called in to the second most listened to radio talk show in America and presented the theory. His reception wasn’t exactly warm, though. Something like: “Get off my phone ya big dope!!”
It’s a start.
Posted by Natalie on Oct 14, 2005 at 1:10 AM
Natalie,
This site might be useful… and it gives a reference list of a number of other sites at the end of the article. (copy and paste)
http://bbs.taishan.com/viewtopic.php?t=608&sid=68d6d68f4d83fcaf3c06e6357e1766d8
For info on Prof Astaneh-Asl
Posted by whit on Oct 14, 2005 at 7:21 AM
Here is an animation/simulation that does an excellent job of demonstrating gravitational free-fall and solid resistance.
http://www.planetdan.net/pics/misc/georgie.htm
Posted by luminous beauty on Oct 14, 2005 at 9:37 AM
Thanks, whit, I was especially impressed by the link labeled:
“Why are we not allowed to question the Holocaust”
You might try using tinyurl to cut down on the lengths of long links, which are usually messed up by the message board for some reason. The taishan link needed to have the space between the fours closed and one of the fours eliminated to work.
ITT, if you read this, could you please reinstitute making links clickable for us html dummies?
Posted by Natalie on Oct 14, 2005 at 9:46 AM
Honestly don’t usually have problems posting or using links on this board.
Rabbit admits he never even looked at the Professor Astaneh experiment. He didn’t think Nat would either.
Perhaps we should all stop being lazy and google HTML and get our act in gear. Actually though Rabbit doesn’t mind the simple format. Simple is usually best. Keep it Forrest Gump, coming from a technician.
Nat just a reminder, the Implosion theory of the WTCs is more or less mainstream. It can hardly be suggested it is a little held or supported belief. A survey of the number of people who actually support the theory will show far more do than don’t.
No amount of pretending can change the fact that the official lie has never been successful in convincing anyone who took the time to check. This is why the Truth movement is a growing tide as evidenced in surveys and polls, as evidenced in legal actions and as evidenced in desperate actions like putting much energy into INTERNET propaganda. Both the original flawed claims reproduced in many formats as if that makes any difference to the omissions and outright false claims. Also by ensuring that there are shills aplenty with a list of the main points to avoid discussing and the things which should be emphasised and repeated.
WITNESSES ............................. Would have to be one of the top “NEVER ACKNOWLEDGE” categories, it would seem.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 14, 2005 at 6:44 PM
Whit that last link is a better illustrated version again and Rabbit recommends it for ease of understanding.
Luminous Beauty your link is by far the most poignant overall.. Rabbit is looking forward to a screen saver which will be that face as it gets the rope, chair or jab.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 14, 2005 at 7:19 PM
Does Prof. Astaneh-Asl personally subscribe to the “deliberate implosion theory”? It appears to me that he is simply cited as being troubled by the remains of the WTC being disposed of too quickly, although I wouldn’t be surprised if a professor from Berkley would attempt to exonerate the terrorists.
Are there any polls by legitimate polling organizations that have asked the specific question or similar: Do you believe that the WTC collapsed because of a terrorist attack, or because of explosives planted by our own government?
Unless you can cite such polls, (and I’m sorry they can’t be foreign polls and they must be specific to the theory of collapse) I don’t know how you can credibly state that the theory is somehow “mainstream”. I do not recall a single report, speculative or otherwise in the “mainstream” U.S. media even addressing the theory.
Internet propaganda indeed, Rabbit. The overwhelming bulk of propaganda seems to be coming from the “alternative explanations” crowd. You may be a pyro-technical welding bunny, but you’re also a projecting and transferring one.
Posted by Natalie on Oct 15, 2005 at 4:33 AM
Oooh! Natalie is a psychiatric clinician. Or is it Cliopatra’s syndrome? That is rich. I can’t refute your ideas so I’ll belittle the legitimacy of your sources and call you crazy. This is about as close to Natalie can get to admitting maybe she doesn’t know. It’s the American way, Rabbit. Denial and avoidance. Followed by, ‘No, you’re the one in denial’. One big dysfunctional family.
For a real world example of projection, look at this; ” I wouldn
Posted by luminous beauty on Oct 15, 2005 at 5:57 AM
I’m curious what Natalie thinks about the ‘Anthrax Letters’.
Posted by luminous beauty on Oct 15, 2005 at 7:27 AM
Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl, Ph.D., P.E.
Professor Department of Civil and Environmental Engineering
University of California, Berkeley
Natalie, Professor Astaneh received a research grant from the National Science Foundation to go to New York and to Investigate the collapse of twin towers of the World Trade Center. This may have been because he was quite highly qualified and recognized in the ‘scientific community’ as an expert in his field.
Are you sure that your disregard for U.C. Berkeley is really warranted, Natalie? True, it has the reputation of being a hotbed of political unrest (in the past). However, if you try to be a little objective and open-minded about it, it did turn out, if my understanding is correct, that the Berkeley radicals were right on the Vietnam thing and that our government, YOUR government did deceive the public about the real deal, the Bay of Tonkin never happened, and the military-industrial complex that General/President Eisenhower tried to warn us against made a shitload of money, taxpayers $. ‘And that elements of the M/I complex were implicated as being involved in the assination of JFK who was planning to kill their golden goose. ‘Or do you have expert testimony validating the “government’s” (magical bullet) theory?
I should admit that I attended the School of Invironmental Design at U.C. Berkeley back in the 70s. I ran out of funds (G.I. bill, scholarships, job, etc) just before my senior year and never did become an architect (although I did go on to get a masters in education elsewhere. However, the “education” I got at Berkeley has been one of the defining factors in my life. Berkeley is an excellent school… one of the finest in the nation, and has excellent academic credentials. By the way, where were you educated, my snobbish friend?
Posted by whit on Oct 15, 2005 at 7:44 AM
I agree with you, Natalie, and some of the stuff on the internet is bogus, disappointing, and unreliable both in terms of accessing it and in content. However, that does not happen to be the case ONLY with sites that you might regard as liberal/progressive/radical. Cyberland is in constant flux and there is little enforced accoutability. The internet is widely used for right-wing hate-mongering as well, is it not?
I apologize if I given you bad steers. Actually I’m more of a non-fiction book person. I find the info in books generally to be more concrete, better organized within a wider context, and easier to discern the validity of according to citations. You might try “War on Freedom” or one of the other books I suggested. I could make some recommendations if you’d like. ‘And you could recommend to me as well.
Posted by whit on Oct 15, 2005 at 7:58 AM
#1
Published on Friday, October 14, 2005 by the Toledo Blade (Ohio)
Greater Role for Military? Call Out the Posse (Comitatus)
by Marilou Johanek
The brains behind the Bush Administration must be otherwise occupied these days. How else to explain the President’s recent public displays of grasping at straws? Telling an increasingly skeptical nation to trust his instincts on elevating his devoted personal lawyer to the highest court in the land was akin to saying “trust me, I know what I’m doing in Iraq” or “trust me, everything’s under control after Katrina and Rita.”
Honestly, where is Karl Rove or Karen Hughes when we need them? The mastermind of the President’s stunning rise from failed businessman with a pedigree to head of the free world is busy trying to save his own neck. He’s up to his eyeballs in a developing scandal that involves exposing a CIA operative to teach her anti-administration spouse a lesson. In between multiple grand jury appearances, Karl could hardly be expected to proofread every Oval Office script.
Then there’s the formidable Ms. Hughes, the President’s chief Texas confidante and born-again cheerleader. In between traveling far and wide to patronize Arab audiences she is supposed to be charming, the woman can hardly be expected to run interference for a bungling boss back home.
But someone with even half a brain in the Bush circle of cherished cronies needs to nix a slippery suggestion by the commander in chief that the military should take a greater role in responding to homeland disasters. The very idea that the Pentagon would expand its job description from fighting wars to resolving any homeland crises from natural disasters to man-made ones should make the skin crawl on every freedom-loving American.
Published on Friday, October 14, 2005 by the Toledo Blade (Ohio)
Greater Role for Military? Call Out the Posse (Comitatus)
by Marilou Johanek
The brains behind the Bush Administration must be otherwise occupied these days. How else to explain the President’s recent public displays of grasping at straws? Telling an increasingly skeptical nation to trust his instincts on elevating his devoted personal lawyer to the highest court in the land was akin to saying “trust me, I know what I’m doing in Iraq” or “trust me, everything’s under control after Katrina and Rita.”
Honestly, where is Karl Rove or Karen Hughes when we need them? The mastermind of the President’s stunning rise from failed businessman with a pedigree to head of the free world is busy trying to save his own neck. He’s up to his eyeballs in a developing scandal that involves exposing a CIA operative to teach her anti-administration spouse a lesson. In between multiple grand jury appearances, Karl could hardly be expected to proofread every Oval Office script.
Then there’s the formidable Ms. Hughes, the President’s chief Texas confidante and born-again cheerleader. In between traveling far and wide to patronize Arab audiences she is supposed to be charming, the woman can hardly be expected to run interference for a bungling boss back home.
But someone with even half a brain in the Bush circle of cherished cronies needs to nix a slippery suggestion by the commander in chief that the military should take a greater role in responding to homeland disasters. The very idea that the Pentagon would expand its job description from fighting wars to resolving any homeland crises from natural disasters to man-made ones should make the skin crawl on every freedom-loving American.
Posted by whit on Oct 15, 2005 at 8:14 AM
# 2
But there was Mr. Bush, in his common man attire of rolled-up shirt sleeves, ruminating about letting the military loose on its own people. He dropped the little jack-boot nugget in a post-Katrina speech meant to deflect attention from the incompetence of the federal government in responding to the natural disaster days after the fact.
If the military can get the job done on American soil lickety-split, why shouldn’t it be allowed to do so? Congress ought to think about amending a law that restricts the homeland role of federal troops, he opined, as visions of army tanks rolling through American cities danced in our heads.
The Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 was passed as a sane response to the huge buildup of federal troops in the South during Reconstruction. The 127-year-old law that restricts the military to its core competency of waging war and defending the nation - not acting as police at home - is as relevant now as it was 127 years ago.
Soldiers who are trained to kill should not cross into civilian activities like law enforcement even in a domestic disaster the size of Katrina. Congress must resist any political pressure to consider inflating the authority of active duty forces even after such catastrophic events. Federalizing a disaster response on American soil is a dangerous proposition fraught with fearful scenarios, not the least of which is abuse of power.
Where does one draw the line on using military force in a national crisis? And how easily can jurisdictional boundaries be blurred? What constitutes a national disaster worthy of troop intervention on Main Street? Could unwieldy war protesters converging on Washington be controlled by armed infantrymen and tanks? Would a hostile strike by thousands of factory workers be enough to call out the military?
Under Posse Comitatus, active duty military can act in a variety of support functions to offer disaster relief, from providing logistics to distributing humanitarian aid. But first-responders to homeland security must be civilian-led: police officers, firefighters, medical and rescue crews, and, if necessary, the citizen soldiers of the National Guard.
Not to worry, assures the President even as the military crafts a plan to organize specially trained and equipped active-duty armed forces to respond immediately to national disasters in ostensibly supporting roles with the Nation Guard.
Everything is under control, say Dubya’s preoccupied handlers, even as their charge nudges the nation into a scary place with greater military authority at home.
Posted by whit on Oct 15, 2005 at 8:14 AM
Why are the National Guard, who are supposed to be protecting and supporting the public on the homefront, all in Iraq killing and getting killed… And the U.S. regular military, who are supposed to be fighting our wars, on the homefront taking charge of domestic national emergencies.
Is this the big blend, where we morph into a police state? ... ‘AS the policing of the world gets more and more “privatized”.
Posted by whit on Oct 15, 2005 at 8:20 AM
” Is this the big blend, where we morph into a police state? ...
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 15, 2005 at 12:23 PM
Whit….............. Luminous Beauty…..........
Rabbit is often humbled by the scintillating insight of others and you have both given him pause to reflect and not for the first time.
You have the advantage over Rabbit in understanding your kin and land, naturally. Yet it is seldom so obvious and the insights are appreciated. Luminous Beauty, maybe interests you to know Rabbit has first born son born on same date as Robert Zimmerman. He happens to be a very Gifted guitarist, at 14 he has been playing for 8 years and teaches a half dozen students himself now.
Rabbit rests himself by the strength of strings….......................
no voice can hope to hum….................^^...........................
The Cat is probably number 2 favorite, Rabbit has a GREAT recent interview with Dylan, in archives, and it really is an interview!
This might be the only real interview, Rabbit can’t remember him doing more than grunting on other occassions and Rabbit has waited hours at concerts a couple times for the old bastard to make a showing, but….......Transcript by the way, but that doesn’t matter, his voice is shit anyway…........
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 15, 2005 at 9:42 PM
Whit, from over here it looks like you guys could be on the rim of the vortex about now, yes.
We have followed your development in our own quiet NEW WORLD ORDER way here in OZ. It isn’t pretty and Rabbit feels the veneer of democracy is only that. We seem to be as hamstrung on real choices, Neither Labour nor Liberal offers any alternative in much the same way as Dems and Reps over there. Our Labour is more Socialist in origins and as such carries the liberal flag. They have absorbed a lot of the old communists as easily since they became a spent force. They are consequently not well enough organised and only the center, relatively conservative brand rises to prominance, no doubt something like that occurs there.
If this viewpoint is worth anything Rabbit would say things look like they are at critical mass stage. Something is going to have to give. Because of our similarities and obvious ties on the important lines of influence, rabbit is taking a keen personal interest in what is happening in the USA. Experince suggests we will follow quite closely in any developments down there. Rabbit can figure out for himself what exactly the likely effects will be to Oz from things down that way.
It seems highly likely that if things go certain ways then we are going to see some things descending upon you my Northern friends which we can only pray will not continue here.
If the Junta, does go for a final throw of the dice, anything is possible. They are poised for a complete martial takeover and all bets are off as to what laws and protections you have left to stop it. Things have not gotten to such a state with freedom and privacy in such a short time for no reason. Things seem to have reached crunch time on many fronts for this Junta. Either they know something we don’t which is why they are playing so hard and fast, or else they have got plans for you which is not all about freedom and democracy.
My opinion only, but it includes intuition as well as a lot of informed observation and consideration, this looks like the point where unless we get a miracle, the rest is a spiralling decline. Like the vortex in the center of a whirlpool going down the drain, you may be on the very rim.
Our wirlpool is just spinning a mirror image of course, and we too are getting closer.
One of the signs of a collapse over there is that our MSM is starting to be much more critical and objective about US policies and events surrounding the US WOT. Not a GLOBAL WAR ON TERROR. It is being seen even here as a US WAR ON TERROR..
They are distancing themselves maybe in a sort of moving to the fence attitude, which means they are no longer betting on the Bushies winning.
Still the scary bit is, the Bushies are MANIACS, and they still have the button….
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 15, 2005 at 10:04 PM
A good fire can become a conflagration with some more fuel, here is some more fuel to warm Nat’s bottom.
“We have some very incriminating documents as well as eye-witnesses,” said Stanley Hilton, former top Republican and presidential advisor. “Bush personally ordered this event to happen in order to gain political advantage, to pursue a bogus political agenda on behalf of the neocons and their deluded thinking in the Middle East…I went to school with some of these neocons. At the University of Chicago, in the late 60s with Wolfowitz and Feith and several of the others and so I know these people personally. And we used to talk about this stuff all of the time. And I did my senior thesis on this very subject - how to turn the U.S. into a presidential dictatorship by manufacturing a bogus Pearl Harbor event. So, technically this has been in the planning at least 35 years.”
————————————————————————
“Why no photos or videos of the Pentagon plane? And there’s not a single credible frame of film or second of video of this,” observed a skeptical Nico Haupt. Cameras surround the fortress on the Potomac so hiding a jumbo jet is a stretch. But all footage from the Pentagon plane actually striking the building has been kept hidden.
Jumbo jets and gigantic doubts. Pilots-in-training flying 300 ton jumbo jets like fighter pilots, better than our own top guns? And magically leaving little wreckage behind. Indeed, you’ll see more wreckage from a Cessna crashing on your local golf course than you ever saw at the Pentagon.
But trust us, say the government spokesmen, and most Americans do.
Among his 500 questions about that day—questions any good detective or newsman would have asked, had any been available—Haupt noted many more puzzling anomalies. Now these anomalies do not, in themselves, prove anything more than complete and utter criminal incompetence, but they do begin to add up suspiciously.
“Why was metallic debris found 8 miles from the crash site of the plane that went down in Penn Secondary Debris Field)? They said it went straight down and left a small hole in the ground,” wondered Haupt. “If they found metallic debris from the plane 8 miles away it was either shot down or a bomb exploded in the plane. Why did they not let the media or any reporters take video or photos of the crash site? Why did all 19 names (of the hijackers) not appear on the passenger list 2 days after the hijacker list was released? Why do none of the names appear on the passenger lists UA and AA gave to CNN”
—————————————————————————
http://www.rense.com/general68/jumbo.htm
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 16, 2005 at 12:19 AM
Gosh, Rabbit, it looks like this guy (Hilton) is guilty of promoting some of same strawman arguments you were so critical of Popular Mechanics for highlighting and then debunking. Seems as though your more level-headed conspiracy theorist rejects his approach:
http://tinyurl.com/86ltu
BTW, his “lawsuit” was rejected by the district court and subsequently by the Bush hating Ninth Circus, as I’m sure you’re aware.
The white supremacists were even taking up his cause, although some were skeptical. And I thought they were all such loyal Bush supporters.
Ahh….the things you learn on the Internet.
http://tinyurl.com/8gfcb
Posted by Natalie on Oct 16, 2005 at 11:23 AM
>
Posted by Natalie on Oct 16, 2005 at 3:40 PM
Sorry to interrupt. Had to get this posted to the “Reckoning with the God Squad” thread :
What God *Really* Told Bush
Apparently, it wasn’t just “invade Iraq and Afghanistan in my name.” A special report by Mark Morford, SF Gate Columnist
Scene: White House private residence, night, not long ago. President Bush present in his most favoritest guns ‘n’ bunnies PJs. Laura asleep, knocked out by a combination of too much Good Housekeeping and excessive hair-spray fumes. Suddenly, a burst of black smoke. A deep, resonant voice speaks:
“Psst! George! God here, taking a break from supervising the well-being of eight billion troubled souls along with infinite galaxies of unimaginable vastness to speak with you directly one more time because, well, you’re special, aren’t you, George? Yes you are! Yes you are! OK, stop giggling. I have more commands. Get off the damn hobbyhorse, George, and get a pen and a notepad. No, not a crayon. I don’t care if blue is your favori—George! Get a pen! OK? Good. Here we go: .... “
Read the rest at :
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/gate/archive/2005/10/12/notes101205.DTL&nl=fix
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 16, 2005 at 4:25 PM
corrected link, I hope :
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgifile=/gate/archive/2005/10/12/notes101205.DTL
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 16, 2005 at 5:30 PM
Sorry, still not correct. Very frustrating.
Go here :
http://www.sfgate.com/columnists/morford/
and click on the 10/12/2005 article entitled
What God *Really* Told Bush
Apparently, it wasn’t just “invade Iraq and Afghanistan in my name.”
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 16, 2005 at 5:35 PM
Go to tinyurl.com, David, to shorten those links. I think the problem arises when the link is longer than the width of the entry box.
It occurs to me that the Iraqis, even after all they’ve been through, are more positive about their future than are liberals in America, Europe, and Canada.
http://tinyurl.com/8a9ap
Posted by Natalie on Oct 16, 2005 at 6:55 PM
Natalie once again shoots her as yet earthbound plane with another hole. (Rabbit does not like to think of Natalie shooting her feet off)
It should be noted that the debris of flight 93 is a very small piece if evidence and it is best seen in light of a lot of other evidence, most of which natalie is stedfastly refusing to acknowledge. Now since you wish to look at the facts of Debris from flight 93, Rabbit will be pleased to oblige. The PM article has been thoroughly dealt with above. It was also noted that another tactic of the PM article was to do what you are doing Nat, Dissemble over selected details and ignoring the main deatils which actually led to the conclusion they were trying to debunk.
Rabbit did not mention any engines or fans anmd his sources certainly did not give much prominance to the details you are mentioning. It is a fatal mistake to quote PMs quotes of Rense, as many of their quotes about Rense articles were not accurate. You compound your ignorance of what you are talking about over and over with your flawed comprehension of what Rense is. The site is simply a NEWS site. It links to NEWS, from other sources. Any reference to anything Rense says, is spurious. The site Rense.com, has a disclaimer printed on it which makes you lokk like a prime dimwit everytime you or anyone says Rense makes any claims. You quote what other sources say about something without ever even having established that the thing exists. No gullible girls around here, of course.
The following is a list of sources which all detail the ACTUAL debris and there was as you will see some at 8 miles distance. So all you have done with your last post is to prove once again that the official Theory is a LIE.
The engine and debris was found “before” the crash site Natalie. This cannot have happened at impact, because the momentum would have carried all debris which can indeed roll and blow away…........ in the direction of the momentum.
All the experts quoted by you were not commenting about the actual incident, but their words are being used in this new context, HOW DISHONEST and factually Bankrupt is that?
——————————————————————-
A second debris field was around Indian Lake about 3 miles from the crash scene. Some debris was in the lake and some was adjacent to the lake.
More debris from the plane was found in New Baltimore, some 8 miles away from the crash.
http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/13/penn.attack/
——————————————————————-
The Pennsylvania state police said debris from the crash has shown up about 8 miles away in a residential area where local media quoted some residents as seeing flaming debris from the sky.
But investigators were unwilling to say whether the presence of debris in two separate places evinced an explosion.
http://www.eastandard.net/eahome/story15092001004.htm
Finding the flight data recorder had been the focus of investigators as they widened their search area today following the discoveries of more debris, including what appeared to be human remains, miles from the point of impact at a reclaimed coal mine.
Residents and workers at businesses outside Shanksville, Somerset County, reported discovering clothing, books, papers and what appeared to be human remains. Some residents said they collected bags-full of items to be turned over to investigators. Others reported what appeared to be crash debris floating in Indian Lake, nearly six miles from the immediate crash scene.
http://post-gazette.com/headlines/20010913somersetp3.asp
————————————————————-
http://www.flight93crash.com/flight93_secondary_debris_field.html
—————————————————————-
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 16, 2005 at 7:08 PM
This is your guy Natalie, even your own witnesses working against your theory.
In a morning briefing, state Police Major Lyle Szupinka confirmed that debris from the plane had turned up in relatively far-flung sites, including the residential area of Indian Lake. Investigators appealed to any residents who had come across such debris, in the surrounding countryside or even in their yards, to contact them, emphasizing that even the smallest remnants could prove to be important clues.”
http://post-gazette.com/headlines/20010913somersetp3.asp
—————————————————-
Szupinka said searchers found one of the large engines from the aircraft “at a considerable distance from the crash site.”
“It appears to be the whole engine,” he added.
Szupinka said most of the remaining debris, scattered over a perimeter that stretches for several miles, are in pieces no bigger than a “briefcase.”
(archived at http://library.triblive.com - search whole engine from 9-10-01 to 9-20-01 or read it here)
———————————————————————-
Crowley related that 95 percent of the airplane had been recovered. The biggest piece of aircraft found was a fuselage skin measuring about 6 to 7 feet. The heaviest piece was from one of the engines and weighed 1,000 pounds.
http://www.dailyamerican.com/disaster.html#final
———————————————————————-
Natalie that is a lot of bits of Airplane which have gone a long way from the crash site. In fact there is no way the debirs field can be accounted for by anything but an onboard bomb or shoot down.
Nat we have at least 100 facts which have been presented so far which support Rabbit’s contention that the official story is a lie.
You have tried and failed to bring dicredit on two or three so far and have gained not a single point in favour of your conspiracy theory.
Try some of the big issues, try the Witnesses, those who actually saw something , whose testimony is valid because it is “Eyewitness” and it is verified with other witnesses. Who needs theories when there is people who saw what happened and have been saying so from day one?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 16, 2005 at 7:12 PM
Anyway, it is established that debris was found at least 8 miles from the crsh site of flight 93. No? OK Some more.
It’s important to recall that every description of the main crash site is that the airplane was OBLITERATED. Very small debris was spread over a couple hundred yards. This is exactly what you’d expect to see when an Airliner impacts nearly vertically as Flight 93 did. Nothing survived this impact… yet a 1000lb fan was found elsewhere. It fell off before impact, just like Flight 587’s engine that was found basically intact did.
John Fleegle, an Indian Lake Marina employee, said FBI agents were skeptical of his reports about debris in the lake [2.5 miles away from main crash site]
... said he climbed on the roof of an abandoned cabin and tossed down a burning seat cushion that had landed there. (Archived at http://library.triblive.com - search burning seat cushion from 9-10-01 to 9-20-01 or read it here. It’s unclear exactly how far this seat cushion is from the primary crater.)
Pennsylvania state police officials said on Thursday debris from the plane had been found up to 8 miles (13 km) away in a residential community where local media have quoted residents as speaking of a second plane in the area and burning debris falling from the sky. http://investor.cnet.com/investor/news/newsitem/0-9900-1028-7147291-0.html
Actually the whole official theory always had the feel of a Warner Brothers Production from the start.
Rabbit knows you are going to try and prove that it wasn’t metal found 8-miles away because there are a number of reports of the same things which differ slightly as is normal in the media. In the end there is no way paper or metal or body parts, could have travelled even a few miles in the times allowed. You see most of the debris from the flight was seen within a minute or so of the plane flying over. Notice one of the reports includes a second plane, sure enough it is the earliest sighting I think.
http://www.geocities.com/killtown/flight93.html
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 16, 2005 at 7:17 PM
Natalie, the Rabbit is a liitle bored and so has decided to crush your last post like a Grape.
Theory 1 - It blew there (The NTSB/FBI Story).
Comment: Wind speed that day was 9 knots (or 10.4 MPH). Video from that morning shows a very light breeze.
The NTSB theory is that a lot of lightweight paper-like material survived the crash fireball and escaped the 35 foot deep, wet mud crash site and floated at 10 mph 2 - 8 miles over more wet, muddy fields. And how did clothing, books and large engine parts blow there again? And is there stuff 2 to 8 miles away at the Pentagon crash? Or another crash you can think of? Oh yea, at Lockerbie and Flight 800 there was (both had in-air explosions).
Remember, the debris is NOT continuous. They didn’t even have a clue the secondary debris existed until phone calls from residents brought skeptical investigators looking. If this debris was heavier than feathers it would not have floated from an explosion the height of 600 feet to 11,000+ feet sideways. Even if it could, there would have been a continuous trail back to the crash with the heavier items falling first. Remember, all the debris at the crash crater bounced South and Southwest. The secondary debris is East in the direction of, and beyond, Indian Lake.
Indian Lake is where witnesses heard the airliner fly over, and saw debris falling from the sky moments after the crash. If the debris floated from the crash site, it would have taken 10-15 minutes at 10 mph to get there.
Flight 427 is another airliner that crashed intact and ALSO had debris found 2.5 miles away. We can try to compare it’s debris field with that of Flight 93. From the 427 report in 1999:
Several lightweight items (for example, pieces of interior insulation and a passenger business card) were discovered as far as 2
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 16, 2005 at 7:32 PM
Are you folks copying the address bar for the link?
Then pasting it on the comment window?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 16, 2005 at 7:47 PM
Then reverse the process to use the link from site? Sincerely Rabbit has no problems either way, most of the time.
Rabbit is seeking comments from anybody who can find anything WHATSOEVER, which challenges WTC Janitor Rodriguez’ story. Several searches have yielded NOTHING. Can it really be true that they have not mounted any sort of defence to his story? God help him and the other witnesses because they surely don’t intend to allow this to get to court. They must be appalled at the thought of Rodriguez testifying in open court.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 16, 2005 at 7:54 PM
Monk
Pay attention.
Rabbit went to your SFGate site. Found the article and merely copy shrtcut off the link to the page. Here it is pasted:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2005/10/12/notes101205.DTL
—————————————————————-
This one is copied from the Address bar after opening the link from the main page, you will see it is the same:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2005/10/12/notes101205.DTL
————————————————————————
Copy and paste either of those addresses as they are and they will take you to the place.
Natalie probably won’t be able to learn so much so quickly, we are still working on comprehension of Gravity in her case, but she might want to see if this simple and typically direct Rabbit route doesn’t have something to say for it.
Rabbit is becoming bored by the whole “I can’t get the thing to work” gig. Rabbit as a technician tells you all to stop being silly, figure out what makes the thing work and do that…...................................Stern look more than an actual foot Stamp!.......................^^.............................
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 16, 2005 at 8:04 PM
Rabbit
Here is the problem. I tried to use both links you posted above. They both brought me to :
SF Gate Item Not Found
The article or page you requested was not found. If this link was sent to you via e-mail or posted on another website, it was probably incorrectly formatted.
If the link that gave you the error appeared on one of SF Gate’s pages, please mail us and let us know at webmaster@sfgate.com.
Here is why.
Look at this portion of your cut & paste from above :
/gate/archive e/2005/10/12
See the space between archive and e. It should not be there. Neither should the e after the space that shouldn’t be there.
As Natalie said might be happening. It seems that when a continuous stream of letters, numbers and /?= that make up a link are longer than the width of the box, the box that I am typing into right now, the electrons get confused and add arbitrary spaces and occasionally duplicate another character.
So there !! Gremlin electrons indeed.
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 16, 2005 at 8:40 PM
Natalie, Thanks for pointing out tinyurl.com.
So here is the the SF Gate - Morford article on a tiny, new and improved url.
http://tinyurl.com/79fhe
Easy.
Posted by David in Canada on Oct 16, 2005 at 8:45 PM
‘And based upon what evidence, Natalie, would you presume to speak for the Iraqi people.
I for one think that we should let THEM decide whether they want to be occupied by American military forces or not. Do you really think they are all happy about being cluster-bombed and having the infastructure on their country destroyed and possibly 100s of thousands of innocent civilians killed, or incarcerated and abused. Do you think our government would abide by the will of the Iraqi people? Everything I’ve read about actual legitimate attempts to assess overall Iraqi opinion on this matter indicates they want the occuppying forces OUT. But perhaps you know best.
Posted by whit on Oct 16, 2005 at 9:32 PM
Ah ha sorry I see now. Yes it did happen then as you say. Rabbit will also look to tiny.urls, at least for long ones, especially as Nat suggested them.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 16, 2005 at 9:51 PM
Whit
Nat would tell you that the only way to know if someone will welcome you with love and flowers when you bomb them, is to bomb them.
Then if that didn’t work make a movie with some actors handing over some flowers and making a speech.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 17, 2005 at 12:46 AM
SAVE 53% OFFTHE NEWSSTAND PRICE!
Reader Comments
No bull, Bun.
What is your proof, exactly? I believe it’s fine to speculate and hypothecize, but to so confidently proclaim things about someone with no real proof, like I’m related to Roger, or I complained to ITT is unfair.
If ITT mistakenly told you I contacted them, then I finally do have a reason to contact them for the first time.
Natalie,
.
You have only now, after more than a month of Rabbit referring to you as one of the culprits who attempted to shut Rabbit down. It is a bit stale to now, finally to put up the sort of resistance you should have done at the time.
.
As for the Helbig naming, something similar bot with more nuance will be offerred shortly.
.
The reasons I called you on this, at the time, you may recall, are quite telling, and while they prove nothing, they do beat a very distinct path to your door. If at this stage it was not the case, you have left it a bit late to protest…..The reasons are as follows.
.
Rabbit was engaged in in a somewhat spiteful, both sides, debate with Roger Ramjet. You were acting as his deputy, despite claiming neutrality. Let us not start denials of partisanship at this stage, please, we have been there and it is admitted by your self. Rabbit had finally managed to stump both Roger and yourself by posting the WIKIPEDIA entry about International Resolutions.
.
Gone,both gone like the wind for days. At this alte stage of the game, (then) Rabbit had also posted on five more threads on ITT.
.
On three of these Rbbit was more rude to a few others, with not quite as much justification, though some. One of these people was WTH as a matter of fact. Another thread which had seen Rabbit was The Unnatural Disaster thread, where you had actually posted at that time also. On this thread Rabbit was loving and kind and had not actually abused anyone. The exception to the other threads was only that Rabbit mentioned the Radioactive Wounds of War thread and DU as an iddue.
.
You were what’s more, also on another of the threads, but no DU mentioned there..
.
When the ban on Rabbit came it saw my posts removed from the Radioactive Wounds of War thread, and the Unnatural Disaster thread, simultaneously. The site moderators pull people based on more than one complaint, by the way, Roger could not have done it alone.
.
Then, almost immediately you and Roger both jumped back onto the Radioactive Wounds of War thread and pretended I had never existed, and so far pinned you both to the wall on the DU issue.
.
Lo and Behold, the Ghost of Rabbit appeared spake unto you again. Both you and Roger proceeded to claim Rabbit had been banned and made direct claims that I had threatened and been excessively abusive. Interestingly at that point while others were writing and fighting for Rabbit’s rights, you two were Shilling flat out on the DU thread and slandering Rabbit.
.
Rabbit’s posts were quickly returned on the Unnatural Disasters thread, and eventually on the DU thread. By this time you and Ramjet had been bottled up a couple more times and the history of the DU thread stands as testimony to the rest.
.
The point to remember is that after having been subjected to scrutiny Rabbit was exonerated. Not Guilty Rabbit.
.
If you can give a logical explanation which explains the above facts, yet somehow excludes your involvment in dirty tricks, let’s hear it.
.
This is the gross evidence used but there are a number of more circumstantial points which helped things to fall into place.
.
ITT are generally quite reticent and have not contacted me except to acknowledge details of their policy.
.
Rabbit would also point out thyat Pale Rider sufferred a similar fate when he first confronted you both.
.
The truth if it be much different to this scenario, would have best been established when you were first asked for truth. As said this is very late in the game to challenge something which has already clearly been a serious threat to your credibility for a while. You have been playing for keeps Nat, if you could have successfully challenged these facts why would you have waited so long?
.
Now be asurred that it is not my intention to use the DU thread to cause you any further discomfort. In the interests of truth, if there is a problem with the above “assumptions”, of mine, then let us get them out of the way, otherwise let us move forward in debate. Rabbit has only ever been straight up with you. With this Hopper, what you see is what you get.
.
Rabbit does not wish to be unfair, especially to his beloved princess of darkness, but he is at this point a suspicious Rabbit, and with reason. Rabbit does have a few friends and you have met some, they actually agree about you, (They don’t like you, though Rabbit does)
.
You are not only going to have to convinve Rabbit but they too might have some queries yet.
.
But, to a Light Warrior Rabbit, truth is more important than being right, so you are welcome to give me truth. Beware the lie, for as Rabbit had to teach his teenage son yesterday, to admit a mistake is relatively easy compared to having to admit a lie about a mistake..
.
The first time you lie you can have for free, after that, make sure your answer is the one you intend to stick to.
.
If you are not Natalie Helbig, then it will be easy for you to prove it, and it can be done privately if you wish. Rabbit would on his honour never say anything on thread but that he now believes you.
.
It is BTW maybe only a co-incidence but there is a rather specific pattern of postings between you and Roger yet. You are on this site simultaneously after days or weeks absence even yet.
.
Proves nothing on its own, but it sure doesn’t detract from the overall impression.
.
Busy Rabbit day making boats, but this thread will be on and off loolked at all day.
.
See Rabbit loves Batty Natty, she is nice when she’s Chatty, Rabbit is not being Catty….......hee…hee…........................^^.............................
Rabbit says : “Beware the lie, for as Rabbit had to teach his teenage son yesterday, to admit a mistake is relatively easy compared to having to admit a lie about a mistake.. The first time you lie you can have for free, after that, make sure your answer is the one you intend to stick to. “
Good advice for everyone. Go forth and sin no more.
PS. The poetry is nice.
” See Rabbit loves Batty Natty, she is nice when she
.. on a technical note .. it would seem that our gracious ITT hosts mhave made some formatting adjustments to the comments we post .. i.e. a one line space is a one line space .. back to reality .. but as always brief is best ..
Rabbit noticed that, but didn’t want to scare it away. Nice little electrons,....... be good to us…..............David have you got any thing which clearlt shows the actual times taken for the buidings to collapse? Start to finish of the actual collapse?
Some of the FACTS which Rabbit considers crucial to forming any opinions about how the WTC’s collapsed.
.1.Each WTC building collapse occurred at virtually free-fall speed (approximately 10 seconds or less). Actually one was 8.7 seconds I think, but am seeking confirmation.
2.Each building collapsed, for the most part, into its own footprint.
3.Virtually all the concrete (an estimated 100,000 tons in each tower) on every floor was pulverized into a very fine dust, a phenomenon that requires enormous energy and could not be caused by gravity alone (”
Natty now no timey to whitey, must go workey, but Natty angwee with wabby, wong on so many wevvels.
Natty wuv wabby, still yet.
Rabbit may be wrong about some of his speculation, but on many levels? We shall see.
Rabbit knows you love him.
What now the Nat is being condescending? Rabbit reaches a paw of equality down to Nat, who now calls him a baby?
Don’t be flip. We are big Rabbits and Girls.
The power is not in the words, but in the truth. The rest is just art….....or not.
What, no WB available out west down under? No baby talk condescension intended, just a reference to a certain bunny’s arch rival. You earlier wrote:
“You have only now, after more than a month of Rabbit referring to you as one of the culprits who attempted to shut Rabbit down. It is a bit stale to now, finally to put up the sort of resistance you should have done at the time.”
Rabbit, to respond to every twist and turn you present, or in this case invent, I’d be forced to call in sick every other day. I wasn’t even sure if you were serious about it. But even if I HAD “resisted”, what good would have come of it? I did forcefully and promptly protest your insistence on manufacturing my family ties with Roger, still yet to absolutely no avail.
“As for the Helbig naming, something similar bot with more nuance will be offerred shortly.”
Ah, suspense. The oldest marketing trick in the book. Do you have an agreement with ITT to help prolong interest in their site? Do disclose.
“The reasons I called you on this, at the time, you may recall, are quite telling, and while they PROVE NOTHING, they do beat a very distinct path to your door. If at this stage it was not the case, you have left it a bit late to protest…..The reasons are as follows.”
“Rabbit was engaged in in a somewhat spiteful, both sides, debate with Roger Ramjet. You were acting as his deputy, despite claiming neutrality. Let us not start denials of partisanship at this stage, please, we have been there and it is admitted by your self. Rabbit had finally managed to stump both Roger and yourself by posting the WIKIPEDIA entry about International Resolutions.”
I simply agreed with Roger, AFTER doing my OWN research, that while DU certainly is not as benign as water, the picture painted by the article “Radioactive Wounds of War” is unrealistic, and preys on our natural fears of anything “radioactive”. The horrific claims by Rokke, who was quoted in the article, and others of like mind and constant association, such as Lauren Moret, are over the top. They play directly into our enemy’s hands and poison the debate. There WAS no stumping. I responded to your WIKIPEDIA link, pointing out that these particular resolutions by a U.N. subcommittee are not binding, and are the product of hatred and jealousy of America. If all such resolutions were followed, we would be required to destroy every weapon in our arsenal, and the population of Israel would be forced to devolve into sea dwelling creatures.
“Gone,both gone like the wind for days. At this alte stage of the game, (then) Rabbit had also posted on five more threads on ITT.”
As it happens, I was on a home-based vacation the week I initially (and politely) offered my opinion on the relative dangers of DU. Any “gone-ness” was only due to the fact that the vacation ended. Sorry to disappoint, but it’s no more mysterious than that.
“On three of these Rbbit was more rude to a few others, with not quite as much justification, though some. One of these people was WTH as a matter of fact. Another thread which had seen Rabbit was The Unnatural Disaster thread, where you had actually posted at that time also. On this thread Rabbit was loving and kind and had not actually abused anyone. The exception to the other threads was only that Rabbit mentioned the Radioactive Wounds of War thread and DU as an iddue.”
I’m sorry, you’re totally losing me here. Believe me, your suspicions have absolutely nothing to do with me, and I doubt any others.
“When the ban on Rabbit came it saw my posts removed from the Radioactive Wounds of War thread, and the Unnatural Disaster thread, simultaneously. The site moderators pull people based on more than one complaint, by the way, Roger could not have done it alone.”
continued…....
pg. 2 (sorry, David, this is not brief)
You asked me to give evidence for my belief that flight 93 was forced down by the actions of the passengers, and I provided it. Did the moderators TELL you that their policy demands more than one complaint, or are you just assuming it? Or did they simply say something generic like “We’ve received complaints”? If there WAS more than one complaint, one of the additional didn’t come from me, as much as you want to believe it did.
“Then, almost immediately you and Roger both jumped back onto the Radioactive Wounds of War thread and pretended I had never existed, and so far pinned you both to the wall on the DU issue.
Coincidence, I assure you, and I dissent on the pinning claim. But as I’ve asked you before, even if all WAS as you imagine, how does that prevent you from simply presenting evidence to support your contentions? Why all the wasted time and space speculating on who I might be and who I might be associated with?
“Lo and Behold, the Ghost of Rabbit appeared spake unto you again. Both you and Roger proceeded to claim Rabbit had been banned and made direct claims that I had threatened and been excessively abusive. Interestingly at that point while others were writing and fighting for Rabbit
Natalie write : ” ... if they do indeed have such
Natalie, I got the Elmer Fudd reference right away (my child like nature, hehe). Made me laugh. In fact, I made a reference, elswhere, that even though Wile E. Coyoyte was a super genius he never caught the Road Runner. So be warned Natalie, hunting wabbits is twicky ...
” Elmer’s role .. that of would-be hunter, dupe and foil for Bugs, would remain his main role forever after and although Bugs Bunny was called upon to outwit many more worthy opponents, Elmer somehow remained Bugs’ classic nemesis, despite (or because of) his legendary gullibility, small size, short temper, and shorter attention span. Somehow knowing, not only that Elmer would lose, but knowing how he would lose, made the confrontation, counterintuitively, more delicious. “
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elmer_Fudd
Since this thread is descending into the faintly risible, let me insert this lame joke I heard recently:
Q: How many free market ideologues does it take to change a light bulb?
A: Null. They just sit in the dark and wait for an invisible hand to change it for them.
Q. How many government bureaucrats does it take to change a light bulb?
A) None.
1) it isn’t in their union contract
2) that’s someone else’s job
3) I’m on my lunch break
Wrong.
It takes the entire bureau, working weeks of over-time to complete the necessary paperwork to file a report in which the light bulb is changed into a ‘standardized area illumination device, IDN348992-B/H485mod3a(see attached file).’
How many Corp.Execs?
Two. One to make drinks and one to tell his assistant to tell his secretary to call an electrician.
Oh. Yes. Getting back on thread.
An Evangelical Christian changes a light bulb by asking it to accept Jesus Christ as its personal Lord and Savior.
Natalie Rabbit has always attempted to keep the debate as focussed and relevant as possible. It is yourself and Roger who introduced all the twists and turns, both directly and by avoiding straight answers to straight questions. That is history and awaits any appraisals on the relevant thread.
The first outing of Ramjet was of utmost importance in showing that a known Shill for the Pentagon lies was involved. At that point had you been open minded you would have read all the references given by people. Rabbit just did so last night, went through all the refs and sources given in just the first two pages, and Natalie there is no way anyone could have emerged after that with anything but a conviction that so called Depleted Uranium was an unnaceptable way to wage war.
That is important when releated to your claims of having tried to establish the truth. At the very least there had to be sufficient reasons to employ proper tersting of all soldiers, even this you have resisted.
Since you cannot even do this much for your troops, please stop coming off with ridiculous lines like this.
“play directly into our enemy
You avoided the Wikipedia source and it’s message for a long time actually. You then tried to talk your way around it as you do now. The source was merely one of those offerred to show why the use of Nuclear Waste, Depleted Uranium was banned by all civilised nations. The only exceptions now being USA and Britain. Nat they did establish the nature of this as a WAR CRIME. You are re-writing history a bit here but Rabbit refers any doubters to the thread. You see I will not be using any more of this thread to deal with what amounts only to “Filler’ or ‘Smoke and Mirrors’ when the real issues we had reached was 911, and that was why you came here Nat. Rabbit said already he would drop all the old stuff and begin anew if you wished. Now beyond this brief reply, which is all it is, not intended as a challenge. Natalie is hereby permitted by Rabbit, to be anybody she wants and Rabbit will goo along with it for now. It was suggested that you proved Rabbit wrong on your name, it should be so easy after all. It was only ever presented as a theory and you have never seriously challenged it, that doesn’t make abbit a liar, merely wrong. All I need is proof to admit it. But you are being given the benefit of the doubt….....
Natalie says:
“If all such resolutions were followed, we would be required to destroy every weapon in our arsenal, and the population of Israel would be forced to devolve into sea dwelling creatures.”
....Let us not get hysterical please, this is bunk and you know it. These resolutions are very specific and there is more than just these UN Resolutions which establish the world opinion on DU. There are a lot more than the three people you and Roger keep on trying to discredit who are involved in the push against DEPLETED URANIUM weapons. The people outnumber the PRO Depleted Uranium crown by thousands to one, which is what makes your small pickings at individuals so laughable.
Natalie you gave a story about a woman who made certain claims. Rabbit pointed out it was not of the standard of evidence sceptical people would normally accept. This whilst accepting your ‘eveidence’ at face value. Rabbit then added some more FACTS extremely well presented which together with your facts actually damaged the official story of 911, which is what I promised to do afetr all.
Try not to waste time accusing Rabbit of disseminating. Rabbit is in fact a very goal oriented Rabbit who while not afraid of detailed analysis, is more inclined to strike as direct a path to the objective as is possible. You get no free opinions with Rabbit. I will pay for mine if required and you will be expected to pay for yours.
Facts are the currency.
Yes the moderators told Rabbit multiple complaints are needed, if it was an assumption I would have said so. They never told me they had recieved complaints, you and Roger did…...........That is one of the reasons I knew it was you. ITT took ages to answer and the posts were all back up before I heard from them….............Now think about that, and stop being silly. Rabbit is not concerned. Nat there were only two threads pulled, you were the only thing they had in common.
Ha Ha Hee Hee Ho Ho
Thank you to Luminous Beauty and Jay for lightening the mood.
New Word for the Day : posted for the benefit of those who did not know what it meant (me) and those to lazy to look it up :
risible
1. Relating to laughter or used in eliciting laughter.
2. Eliciting laughter; ludicrous.
3. Capable of laughing or inclined to laugh.
Thank you Luminous Beauty.
oops….Rabbit meant you and DU were the only things they had in common.
Now if you are not connected to Roger you have to realise that someone was pulling monkey tricks, and what about Pale Rider? the same thing happened and he was very polite. But his info was dynamite, and somebody didn’t want it being said. Now how can you feel good about supporting somebody who is clearly pulling such dishonest tricks if you are yourself honest? Rabbit even admitted whenever he knew other posters, before being accused, which was silly since they were admitted Rabbit friends, two were anyway. Rabbit does not want to believe Nat complained about him at all. It is however necessary for Nat to consider the consequences of the complaints which were certainly made by someone about the Unnatural Disaster thread, thus making you look like the culprit. Besides which it must be remembered that there was obviously nothing to complain about after all, Rabbit - Not Guilty…..
The co-incidence of your near simultaneous postings has actually been a common feature since early in the thread. Also the tag teaming when one or the other was confronted with an unavoidable obstacle…...................Rabbit does not believe that there is any such thing as co-incidence except as an observed occurrence. Things happen in CO-Incidence, there is always a reason. We may not always know that reason.
Rabbit has speculated upon one reason for the co-incidences, you say these do not correspond with truth. Maybe so. It is of no consequence really. You have been flogged dear girl, none would disagree upon reading the DU thread, but you can claim that as a victory if it feels better. GWB claims Iraq as a Victory after all.
If you are all rabbit claimed Nat, eg: a Shill, that does not stop you presenting any evidence to support your claims. It does however affect the way in which others will view you and your opinions. Your evidence was always examined by others and it was always found wanting. As in the case of the flight 93 above the source often proved only that some fact you claimed had been reported somewhere. Even if it established the FACT, this did not at any point build a case for the continued use of Nuclear Waste as a Weapon. We are here examining FACTS and how to relate these to 911. Proving a Fact as such is only a start, you must use that Fact, in league with other Facts to establish a credible theory.
It is also important to remember that most of us are sophisticated enough to realise the importance of “Internet Propaganda” and just how much resources are currently being expended to reduce the amount of open discussion and orderly debate about important issues. So if you merely say that such idea’s as Shills and Disinfo agents is crazy you will be demonstrating that you have something to hide. Google it anybody who doesn’t understand.
To be taken seriously you need to admit that Ramjet is one, he is long since ID’d, years ago. You have seen the evidence of it, and equally so if you were not one who complained about either I or Pale Rider. If you can admit this but still say you were acting independantly Rabbit will extend the benefit of the doubt even further.
You didn’t use the word Banned, the exact post will be quoted later when Rabbit has had time to check, and if wrong I will say so too.
“abusive, insulting, and yes threatening words for me and others were borne of your inability to effectively defend your position”
...Natalie the thread stands yet and any can see that Rabbit’s words were justifiably harsh but as far as Flaming on the net goes, mild in all but their effectiveness. Besides that those who know Rabbit know he is none of the things you accuse him of. Others have actually been more directly abusive of both you and Roger, they just swore at you and ignored you henceforth.
“But after I read that you were banned, (I believe the announcement was on another thread), I thought yeah, he shouldn
Now Can we talk about 911 and how those with a Faith based argument use it to justify making war on entire nations?
How many women with PMS does it take to change a lightbulb?
lb,
I stand corrected
:)
” Now Can we talk about 911 and how those with a Faith based argument use it to justify making war on entire nations? “
Rabbit has brought the thread back full circle.
” Fundamentalist bullies cannot be appeased. they must be confronted. “
So is it possible that Rabbit could have some feedback from any who feel the official 911 has some credibility, when the above ten point Rabbit post is taken into account. I’ve been waiting for the chance to prove any of those contentions.
This is important to any who wish to argue that what the USA is doing in it’s War on Terror. There are those of us who think of it as a War of Terror and one of the crucial cases upon which we have formed this opinion, is that the official story of 911 does not stand ANY scrutiny, it ignores a whole herd of PINK ELEPHANTS in the living room at it’s best and is provably wrong, in FACT, as well as scientific analysis.
Thye whole lie is unravelling as we speak. There are court cases and indigtments being handed down now which will lead to very serious questions being raised as well as some very shocking answers being found.
How about a free book, Folks?
A little education never hurt the effort of trying to converge on a more objective version of reality.
http://gangsofamerica.com/read.html
Rabbit’s wonky computer now begins the task of downloading the free book. Thanks Whit.
If it was the flash computer at home it would have already done it and made Rabbit a cup of coffee. Rabbit must make his own coffee here to.
Damn has the God Squad caved in now we’re town to Facts?
Among my other varied reading, I’m re-reading “Crossing the Rubicon” to re-consider info and freshen up my thinking.
Jay, if you attempt this 600 page read, you will feel compelled to dimiss this guy as a “comspiracy wing-nut” (if I recall correctly your term). However, I hope you give it a shot. He has 60 pages of appendix, endnotes, and references. While it is not recommended that you ‘believe’ or ‘agree’ blindly with any conclusions, it is recommended that you check out the information made available with an open but critical mind, consider its implications, analyze it for yourself, and draw you own conclusions. The book is a rich source of referenced information, and presents a very wide and deep overview of our current predicament… for your humble consideration.
Rabbit re-posts this since it is relatively short and deserved mopre than the dustbin of history on this thread,..........Rabbit stamps angry foot!
Some of the FACTS which Rabbit considers crucial to forming any opinions about how the WTC
GOD does not care about anybody at all more than anybody else. Then. Try and censor that.
Had to share this opinion from :
http://www.yhwh.com/
Jesus was a loser and a coward
It’s time the truth be told. Jesus was a loser and a coward, it’s just that plain and simple. Just listen to this tripe:
Mt 5:38 “You have heard that it was said,
.. continued ..
Just think if we had actually been practicing what this coward preached for these last 2000 years. No crusades (where the Real Church killed millions of the infidel Muslims, praise God.) No Lutheran sponsored Holocaust. The Roman empire would have turned into a peace-loving state when Constantine became emperor 1700 years ago. No American civil war, as the 2 Christian sides would have resolved their differences peacefully. It’s inconceivable.
Sure, occasionally the whole peaceful resistance thing gets lucky and works, like when Gandhi helped free the entire Indian continent from hundreds of years of British oppression without a single gunshot or raised fist. Hey, even a stopped clock is right twice a day, everyone knows that. But he was only a pagan Hindu, instead of a real Christian. And India finally came to its senses anyway, and developed their own military and nuclear bombs. So there.
It warms my heart to attend Memorial Day Church services, especially on or near military bases. To see all the people who have lost lives & limb preserving our freedoms and way of life, now THAT is God’s blessing. THAT is true courage. THAT is true patriotism. THAT is true Christianity, not the crap Jesus was saying.
As a part of the War on Terrorism I really think we need to reprint our Bibles, and remove these shamefully cowardly passages. They could possibly dampen the spirits of our fighting men and women.
Of course, there are a few others that might need editing. Just read this shameful display of cowardice:
Mt 26:47 While he was still speaking, Judas, one of the Twelve, arrived. With him was a large crowd armed with swords and clubs, sent from the chief priests and the elders of the people.
48 Now the betrayer had arranged a signal with them: “The one I kiss is the man; arrest him.”
49 Going at once to Jesus, Judas said, “Greetings, Rabbi!” and kissed him.
50 Jesus replied, “Friend, do what you came for.” Then the men stepped forward, seized Jesus and arrested him.
51 With that, one of Jesus
.. continued ...
quoted from :
http://www.yhwh.com/
p.s. Though it pains me to do so, the numbers of bitter emails I’ve received forces me to make the following statement:
The preceding piece is sarcasm. It states the exact opposite of what it really means, in order to make a point. I’m sorry if you didn’t get it.
Truth for me.
Had to get it in there on the God Squad thread.
Sorry to interrupt Rabbit.
Right on, Brother David. God wants blood… any fool knows that. ‘And what was this crap about Jesus identifying with the poor and down-trodden. That’s a communist plot to try to get us to share. Blood, power, profit… Praise God… and us (some of us) his chosen ones.
Published on Friday, October 7, 2005
by The Independent
Bush: God Told Me to Invade Iraq
President ‘revealed reasons for war in private meeting’
by Rupert Cornwell
“...Former Palestinian foreign minister Nabil Shaath says Mr Bush told him and Mahmoud Abbas, former prime minister and now Palestinian President: “I’m driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, ‘George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan.’ And I did, and then God would tell me, ‘George go and end the tyranny in Iraq,’ and I did.”
And “now again”, Mr Bush is quoted as telling the two, “I feel God’s words coming to me: ‘Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East.’ And by God, I’m gonna do it.”
Now is this guy a total sociopath or just psychotic and delusional. God only knows!
God probably told him to rig the last two presidential elections too.
The guy was a bum. He hung out in the pub with the guys and probably enjoyed a few tokes of wisdom weed of an evening. Frankly Rabbit finds it hard to beleive he didn’t get his end away there a few times, he was among the right crowd. He was probably such a top bloke he never talked about it afterwards, is all, so the God Squad who PREFER to talk about it, just figured he was a virgin.
The guy was definately a pacifist and Rabbit would be inclined to thump anyone who took a poke at himself, the first time, but then Rabbit is not a follower of Christ, so much as we are just friends. We’ve shared the same Bong and the same wench once or twice.
Rabbit read about the Busherising Messiah crap the Chimp amused the Pallestinians with.
Can you imagine some of the smirks and comments among the Pallestinian delegation when Shrub is expounding such crap?
GOD…... it makes Rabbit proud…....... he is not OUR president.
Whit,
Amen and verily.
Good songs by Roger Waters.
What God Wants. Part One and Two.
What God wants God gets God help us allWhat God wants God getsThe kid in the corner looked at the priestAnd fingered his pale blue Japanese guitarThe priest saidGod wants goodnessGod wants lightGod wants mayhemGod wants a clean fightWhat God wants God getsDon’t look so surprisedIt’s only dogmaThe alien prophet criedThe beetle and the springbokTook the bible from its hookThe monkey in the cornerWrote the lesson in his bookWhat God wants God gets God help us allGod wants peaceGod wants warGod wants famineGod wants chain storiesWhat God wants God getsGod wants seditionGod wants sexGod wants freedomGod wants semtexWhat God wants God getsDon’t look so surprisedI’m only jokingThe alien comic criedThe jackass and hyenaTook the feather from its bookThe monkey in the cornerWrote the joke down his bookWhat God wants God getsGod wants boardersGod wants crackGod wants rainfallGod wants wetbacksWhat God wants God getsGod wants voodooGod wants shrinesGod wants lawGod wants organised crimeGod wants crusadeGod wants jihadGod wants goodGod wants badWhat God wants God gets
.. continued .. part two ..
Do you believe in a better dayDo you have a faith in a golden wayIf you do then we must come together this dayCome together as one unitedTelevision audienceBrought together the sound of my voiceUnited united financially united sociallyUnited spiritually and all possible waysThrough the power of moneyAnd the power of your prayersWhat God wants God gets God help us allGod wants dollarsGod wants centsGod wants pounds shillings and penceGod wants guildersGod wants kronerGod wants Swiss francsGod wants French francsOui il veut des francs francaisGod wants escudosGod wants pesetasDon’t send liraGod don’t want small potatoesGod wants small townsGod wants painGod wants clean up rock campaignsGod wants widowsGod wants solutionGod wants TVGod wants contributionsWhat God wants God gets God help us allGod wants silverGod wants goldGod wants his secretNever to be toldGod wants gigolosGod wants giraffesGod wants politicsGod wants a good laughWhat God wants God gets God help us allGod wants friendshipGod wants fameGod wants creditGod wants blameGod wants povertyGod wants wealthGod wants insuranceGod wants to cover himselfWhat God wants God gets God help us all
God help me.
Fair use disclaimer.
Good God, David, I’m sorry to break this to you, and if you weren’t aware I’m sorry you had to hear it on of all places an Internet comment board, but Elmer is no longer with us. Firearms mishap….which by itself of course would have been harmless, but for the simultaneous and extremely rare failure of the automatic animation immortality generator. (AAIG)
Fortunately, the bloodline continues. In keeping with the theory of evolution, a superior son emerges ..... far more focused, far more dedicated and armed with superior weapons enhanced with depleted Stratocaster technology.
His anthem hither:
http://tinyurl.com/7t6vl
Wabbits in Australia especially beware. His name, as I am told, is a clue to his preferred “stomping” grounds.
Wabbit can eveolve too, does Elmer and his Masters think Rabbit’s just sit around waiting for the next weapon. Rabbits had become naturalised West Australians long before the Rabbit Proof fence was completed.
Enough Godish blasphemy, my neice will be onto us and we’ll all be told to get down on our knees and pray.
Like the Elmer song.
Rabbit imagines a GWB, in bog cowboy boots and a huge Stetson, jumping up and down and yelling about a war on Wabbits…............ WOW ......................
Those Wabbits hate our freedoms, they want to destroy our way of life and they have a false god.
“God told me to destroy all Rabbits and by God I am going to do it, right after I’ve destroyed all Muslims”
From another thread, a great site Rabbit found again. Well presented and huge resource highlighting some of the biggest lies of the century from the master of deceit.
GEORGE BUSH LIES about IRAQ.
http://www.tvnewslies.org/html/iraq_lies.html
What kind of Ammo would Elmer be using Natalie…...............................................Rabbit looking up….......................Ears half raised…...................big eyes blinking innocently….............................^^........................................
On with 911, Rabbit hopes Nat and Jay, and others, are reading lots of interesting stuff from the interesting sources already given who use verifiable facts and science and things to debunk the official theory and allow us to forulate other theories which have the benefit of accounting for all the facts we do at least have.
Or at the least challenge Rabbit on the TEN big bangers, re-printed, using billions of co-operative electrons, for your perusal and consideration, so that he may source and explain their relevance,....................................Don’t make Rabbit stamp his Angry Foot…
Rabbit,
I’m preparing to delve into your massive stack of “everything you know is wrong” (hey, Firesign Theatre 1974!) literature, but in the mean time, I don’t believe you’ve attempted to address the Popular Mechanics series I initially posted de-bunking most of the alternative theories about 9/11. Do you have any plans to do so?
There seems to be a couple problems with the initial story about Barbara Olson being arrested. Seems there is actually no such thing as a Polish-Austrian border, and the currency she was supposedly carrying hadn’t been legal tender since 2002.
Any further thoughts or revelations re: Barbara Olson?
P.S. Just kidding about all that kill da wabbit stuff. I certainly don’t condone killing wabbits, but that IS an awfully catchy tune, don’t you agree?
Eulogy for Elmer :
Old friends are the best friends.
Old antagonists are the best antagonists.
See you on the other side.
Rabbit just hadn’t seen WB for twenty years is all, didn’t get the Elmer Fudd ref at first. Am not a sensitive Rabbit, actually I am the most self contained ego, nobody upsets Rabbit by their own choice, just his.
The Popular mechanics Article is not taken seriously by researchers and I will be glad to show you why. Rabbit did not realise that you expected him to even bother with it, sorry. That will be next on my posts. It is a legendary joke though and Rabbit is surprised you don’t realise it. You must not be very well informed on such issues or that Popular Mechanics is a very unreliable source for truth when dealing with major political events. It is thoroughly discredited on so many issues over the years that any engineer who tries to use it’s articles for anything but a coffee coaster is a joke. You’ll see. As for the sources you were given they include all there is to know about what happened and very few of the actual FACTS can be questioned they are what is in the public domain. The speculation and theorising which is included about the meaning of the known FACTS is important, but you will be wasting yours and our time if you begin by trying to question the theories. You are expected to verify the FACTS and query them if you feel they can be. But we will establish FACTS and then we will relate these to our opinions or theories.
Now this is a loaded dice, it cannot be denied. The dice is loaded in favour of a logical debate, and a debate which will inevitably debunk some theories while it gives support for others. That means, in a debate, someone is going to lose. That cannot be helped Natalie, since we disagree. In the end, if we are able to arrive at a better understanding of the TRUTH or even just identify LIES, or misperceptions, we will all win.
Rememeber Rabbit has his own very specific opinions. They are not standardised, or predictable. As far as what happened on 911, I am sure of several things only. The “three” WTCs did not fall to the ground simply because a plane flew into two of them. I know this without any doubt, anybody who understands even the most basic physics or engineering, or history of such things knows this.
That is not to say that there aren’t people who have qualifications who are backing the official theory. Just as with DU there are people who have a vested interest or who can be threatened into lying even. In the end it is the Majority of the opinions of the Professions which will decide, as well as simple physics in this case. The truth is that the official story has only been arrived at by ignoring some of the most enormous pieces of evidence. For example the fact that WTC 7 came down in an identical fashion. The fact that credible witnesses claimed they heard and saw explosions before and after the planes hit. On e witness has 27 others who back his story, including one who was onjured in a bomb blast before the first plane hit.
Natalie these are not just little airy fairy claims of phonecalls and records showing phonecalls were made. Such phonecalls are no more than hearsay, they prove nothing, but especially they have no bearing on whether or not the US government was involved.
Besides the phonecalls, including the Barbara Olson claims have always been questioned since they do not actually fit the official theory as outline above.
The ignoring of evidence, withholding evidence and numerous falsehoods which have been “Proven” to have been uttered, are what helps make a case for the US government’s involvment, on speculation alone. There is lots more evidence that will allow this to be taken beyond mere speculation of course. For now Rabbit is content to let the air out of the tyres of the official theory for you.
On the Barbara Olson story. It is now a couple weeks old and was actually corrected very early on about the Polish/Austrian border mistake. Now actually this in itself makes the story just a tad more believable. You see any deliberate misinfo of this scale would never have made such a basic mistake.
Now the source is Tom Flocco, and that is not a good enough reason to ignore it as some claim. These are wishful thinking because Flocco has a good track record as it happens. He is repeating something which has been told to him and since it does indeed involve intelligence agencies, unverified sources are the order of the day. Now nobody rabbit knows is seriously accepting this story at this point. However we are not so stupid as to ignore all of the reasons why it may well turn out to be true.
This is the advantage of making ones own opinions. You can collect information sometimes without having to form an opinion.
Rabbit’s opinions about 911, are simply those he is able to form from verifiable facts. This is why he did not discount the missile hitting the pentagon, nor did he accept it. The reports about radiation down wind were equally filed away. The fact of DU being in the wings of some aircraft as found by David actually makes such Radiation readings more likely does it not? this then vindicates those people who claimed there was radiation. The problems arise again however because it seems that the plane that is alleged to have struck the Pentagon would not have had such DU counterweights, but a military A3 would have. This is interesting, because the wheels seen at the pentagon site are more likely to be an A3, in fact a carrier based one from the size of radius to diameter. The engine shown in pictures at thje pentagon would also have suited an A3. The engine in the picture at the pentagon is certainly too small and wrong design for a 737 (Sorry if the model wrong, means flight 77)
Anyone who wants to see a recent re-hash and re-examination of details should see here, it is very well referenced and sourced.
————————————-
FBI Claims 84 Videos Show NO Flight 77 Impact
.............Of course they don’t.. Nothing to see here folks, move along….............There are no planes on the videos so nobody needs to see them.
That is probably enough for Natalie? Is it OK that the FBI just says nothing to see and withholds the evidence? Rabbit was of the opinion that US courts were the law, the FBI is only there to enforce the law, not dictate terms by which things shall be established or not.
http://www.rense.com/general67/fbicl.htm
POPULAR MECHANICS.
Rabbit read the Popular Mechanic article when it first came out, and independantly came to all the same conclusions as follows. The most obvious thing to Rabbit was that most of the “Alternative theories” they were debunking, were not widely held and were already considered to be disinformation by many of us then. So these clown set up an strw man and proceeded to attack it, without even much success then as I recall, Rabbit is as mentioned not altogether foreign to exngineering and physics and on these points alone they show ignorance.
We can deal with each of the Popular Mechanics 16 points, but most of them are simply not relevant, because they are not views held by Rabbit or any serious 911 truth seekers.
The following source is posted because it gives background on the author of the article, and the ownership of the “Rag” concerned. Both points which will be seen as relevant.
Don’t wait for the MP3 download unless you care to listen to Alex blathering on. Relevant too, but Rabbit can’t stand the accent sorry. Maybe it is easier for Yanks to listen to.
http://www.prisonplanet.tv/audio/090305alexresponds.htm
——————————————————-
The Hearst-owned Popular Mechanics magazine takes aim at the 9/11 Truth Movement (without ever acknowledging it by that name) with a cover story in its March 2005 edition. Sandwiched between ads and features for monster trucks, NASCAR paraphernalia, and off-road racing are twelve dense and brilliantly designed pages purporting to debunk the myths of 9/11.
The article’s approach is to identify and attack a series of claims which it asserts represent the whole of 9/11 skepticism. It gives the false impression that these claims, several of which are clearly absurd, represent the breadth of challenges to the official account of the flights, the World Trade Center attack, and the Pentagon attack. Meanwhile it entirely ignores vast bodies of evidence showing that only insiders had the means, motive, and opportunity to carry out the attack.
The article gives no hint of the put options on the targeted airlines, warnings received by government and corporate officials, complicit behavior by top officials, obstruction of justice by a much larger group, or obvious frauds in the official story. Instead it attacks a mere 16 claims of its choosing, which it asserts are the “most prevalent” among “conspiracy theorists.” The claims are grouped into topics which cover some of the subjects central to the analysis of 9-11 Research. However, for each topic, the article presents specious claims to divert the reader from understanding the issue. For example, the three pages devoted to attacking the Twin Towers’ demolition present three red-herring claims and avoid the dozens of points I feature in my presentations, such as the Twin Towers’ Demolition.
The article brackets its distortion of the issues highlighted by 9/11 skeptics with smears against the skeptics themselves, whom it dehumanizes and accuses of “disgracing the memories” of the victims.
More important, it misrepresents skeptics’ views by implying that the skeptics’ community is an undifferentiated “army” that wholly embraces the article’s sixteen “poisonous claims,” which it asserts are “at the root of virtually every 9/11 alternative scenario.” In fact much of the 9/11 truth community has been working to expose many of these claims as disinformation.
http://911research.wtc7.net/essays/pm/
—————————————————————-
http://batr.org/911/2005.03.01_arch.html
This is an excellent site, very information intensive and it deals with the Popular Mechanics article in it’s historical perspective. The rest of the site is worth looking at if you intend to sriously challenge Rabbit. Be aware Natalie that Rabbit has the advantage of probably having read everything you have, but a whole lot more besides. Rabbit has a huge advantage, and he is not boasting about it. Rabbit is a sportsman, and would prefer a challenging hunt any day. You are being advised to be better armed. Of course if you are capable of having an open mind, you will be unable to maintain your present ideas about 911 after having gone through the things you have already been given above. Not just checking they exist, but reading them, questioning the facts they present if you can and form an opinion about what is written, not just about who wrote it. Rabbit has said it before Nat. No qualifications are needed to tell the truth.
I already know how open minded and yet sceptical a group of people the 911 truth movement is. We don’t have all the answers, but we have a hell of a lot more than those who believe the official THEORY. We can absolutely, there is no question the official theory is dead in the water. Babe it didn’t even float at launch. It went straight off the slip hit the water and kept going down until it hit bottom. There it has remained. Except the bottom has continued to rise adn the ship of Lies is nearly buried by the silt of actual evdience which has continued to trickle out.
It is sad to think so many are first going to wake up to the lies when they read the Neo-con JUNTA has been charged with the whole shebang. Organising, paying for and allowing 911 to happen as it did. Then will follow the illegal wars which were launched on the basis of lies and down it will come…..............
Natalie the MSM in America has started to wake up to the fact that a watergate style event is about to burst upon the scene. That is happening right now. You are in for a hell of a lot more than that before this is over, don’t trust me. Just sit back and wait, it won’t be long now.
http://www.thinkprogress.org/leak-scandal
—————————————————————-
When Popular Mechanics set out to “debunk the myths” surrounding the events of 9/11 they ignored the myth created and propagated by the US government itself.
One of the wilder stories circulating about Sept 11 ... is that it was carried out by 19 fanatical Arab hijackers, masterminded by an evil genius named Osama bin Laden, with no apparent motivation other than that they “hate our freedoms.”
Never a group of people to be bothered by facts, the perpetrators of this cartoon fantasy have constructed an elaborately woven web of delusions and unsubstantiated hearsay in order to promote this garbage across the internet and the media to the extent that a number of otherwise rational people have actually fallen under its spell. ...
These crackpots even contend that the extremist Bush regime was caught unawares by the attacks, had no hand in organizing them, and actually would have stopped them if it had been able. Blindly ignoring the stand-down of the US Air Force, the insider trading on airline stocks
Where is the MONK?
.............................................^^............................................
Natlaie and Jay, please have a look at this source before you go further because it is just in and it’s a beauty. If there is anything about the article whichyou don’t understand Rabbit will be glad to explain it in very simple words. ...................All ineterested parties have a look at this lovely effort by the WRH team.
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wtc7.html
Hoppity hop says Rabbit, that site is the best on WTC 7 yet seen. Concise, it is concise, and to the point….......
Here it is again….
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wtc7.html
Now this is getting really good.
That was an excellent bit of work and good, clear writing, Rabbit. Thanks!
I am involved in necessary distractions lately and haven’t been able to engage much, but I check in regularly. Spent some time writing last night, but somehow all was lost when I submitted it. Perhaps because I left it sitting there so long as I answered phone calls. I dunno.
Anyway, keep hopping, Rabbit. Carrots to you!
Published on Sunday, October 9, 2005
by The Independent
Tell Us Who Fabricated the Iraq Evidence (P1)
by Norman Dombey
President Bush’s principal adviser Karl Rove is to be questioned again over the improper naming of a CIA official. Mohamed ElBaradei, accused by the American right of being insufficiently aggressive, wins the Nobel Peace Prize for his stalwart work at the helm of the International Atomic Energy Agency. Pentagon official Larry Franklin pleads guilty to passing on classified information to Israel. Just a normal week in politics. But there is a thread linking these events and it is Iraq.
Politicians tell us they acted in good faith on the road to war, and maybe they did, but that leaves a prickly question: who was so keen to prove that Saddam Hussein was an imminent threat that they forged documents purporting to show that he was trying to buy 500 tons of uranium from Niger to develop nuclear weapons? The forgery was revealed to the Security Council by ElBaradei. That was not an intelligence error. It was a straightforward lie, an INVENTION intended to mislead public opinion and help start a war.
At the beginning of 2001, a few weeks before George Bush took office, there was a break-in at the Niger embassy in Rome. Strangely, nothing of value was taken. Months later came 9/11 and a month after that, as George Bush wondered how to get back at the terrorists, a report from the Italian security service (Sismi) reached the CIA: Iraq was seeking to buy uranium.
Disappointingly for the neocons, the CIA sent Ambassador Joseph Wilson to Niger to check the story: he reported that it was nonsense. When the story was repeated by Bush, Wilson went public. His wife, CIA agent Valerie Plame, was then outed by the White House. Hence Rove’s predicament.
An organisation called the Office of Special Plans (OSP) was set up in the Pentagon by Douglas Feith, a former consultant to Israel’s Likud party, to prepare for the war. In the words of Robert Baer, a distinguished former CIA man, it was a “competing intelligence shop at the Pentagon”...“if you didn’t like the answer you’re getting from the CIA”. In short, bogus stories would get a second chance at the OSP.
Tell Us Who Fabricated the Iraq Evidence (P2)
by Norman Dombey
A clue to the ancestry of these black arts can be found in 1980, when right-wing Republicans wanted Ronald Reagan elected. They publicised a story that Billy Carter, the then President Jimmy Carter’s colourful brother, had received $50,000 (
(P3) I meant to add towards the end of P2 some emphasis on:
“SINCE BEFORE 9-11” ...since it suggest some prior planning was afoot.
I have to give you credit, Rabbit, you did comprehensively address the PM article in response to my inquiry. It’s evident to me that the article was viewed as a significant credibility threat by the “what really happened” community, judging from their strenuous rebuttals to it.
In attacking the motives and credibility of the publisher and the authors of the PM article, perhaps you’ve waived your previously assumed right not to have the same directed at such sources as Alex Jones and prisonplanet.com, or Jeff Rense and Rense.com.
One complaint put forth seems to be that the PM article is mostly focused on claims that level-headed conspiracy theorists have long ago dismissed as unsupportable. That may be true for a few aspects, but most of the major current claims put forth by you, Alex and others are indeed addressed directly by PM, and quite effectively IMHO:
CLAIM: A columnist on Prisonplanet.com, a Web site run by radio talk show host Alex Jones, claims that seismic spikes are “indisputable proof that massive explosions brought down” the towers. The Web site says its findings are supported by two seismologists at the observatory, Won-Young Kim and Arthur Lerner-Lam. Each “sharp spike of short duration,” says Prisonplanet.com, was consistent with a “demolition-style implosion.”
FACT: “There is no scientific basis for the conclusion that explosions brought down the towers,” Lerner-Lam tells PM. “That representation of our work is categorically incorrect and not in context.” (he misrepresented his source)
CLAIM: Seven hours after the two towers fell, the 47-story WTC 7 collapsed. According to 911review.org: “The video clearly shows that it was not a collapse subsequent to a fire, but rather a controlled demolition.”
FACT: Many conspiracy theorists point to FEMA’s preliminary report, which said there was light damage to WTC 7 prior to its collapse. With the benefit of more time and resources, NIST researchers now support the working hypothesis that WTC 7 was far more compromised by falling debris than the FEMA report indicated. “The most important thing we found was that there was, in fact, damage to the south face of building 7,” NIST’s Sunder tells PM. “On about a third of the face to the center and to the bottom—approximately 10 stories—about 25 percent of the depth of the building was scooped out.” NIST also discovered previously undocumented damage to WTC 7’s upper stories and its southwest corner.
NIST investigators believe a combination of intense fire and severe structural damage contributed to the collapse, though assigning the exact proportion requires more research. But NIST’s analysis suggests the fall of WTC 7 was an example of “progressive collapse,” a process in which the failure of parts of a structure ultimately creates strains that cause the entire building to come down. Videos of the fall of WTC 7 show cracks, or “kinks,” in the building’s facade just before the two penthouses disappeared into the structure, one after the other. The entire building fell in on itself, with the slumping east side of the structure pulling down the west side in a diagonal collapse.
CLAIM: Conspiracy theorists insist there was no plane wreckage at the Pentagon. “In reality, a Boeing 757 was never found,” claims pentagonstrike.co.uk, which asks the question, “What hit the Pentagon on 9/11?”
FACT: Blast expert Allyn E. Kilsheimer was the first structural engineer to arrive at the Pentagon after the crash and helped coordinate the emergency response. “It was absolutely a plane, and I’ll tell you why,” says Kilsheimer, CEO of KCE Structural Engineers PC, Washington, D.C. “I saw the marks of the plane wing on the face of the building. I picked up parts of the plane with the airline markings on them. I held in my hand the tail section of the plane, and I found the black box.” Kilsheimer’s eyewitness account is backed up by photos of plane wreckage inside and outside the building.
Rabbit trys to remember to copy his posts before hitting the Submit button. Often the most work is the one he forgets, and boing, the electrons escape and run off into the ethers. No returns when this happens and if one considers it there is an explanation.
Probably filters in the system, ITTs or “THEM” which re-routs whole posts into a one way door. Who or what is behind the door?
Rabbit has a computer which he values for it’s virtual imperviousness to hacking. This comptuter crashes in response to anything unexpected. Quite handy because several hacking attempts have been averted and detected that way. If Rabbit even thinks in a certain mood, the thing crashes I swear. Yet it hardly ever crashes for Rabbit, unless as said something weirds the computer out. Then it hits the floor with it’s poor wee cyber arms over it’s cyber head. Rabbit must pick it up gntly and coax it back into life, after which it tells Rabbit all about the scary thing it felt in the darkness. Much is darkness to such a small computer.
Now Natalie stop the waffling exercise about the PM article. Rabbit was familiar with it as said and knows from his own study of it years ao it is rubbish as shown.
Now it is not normally considered good form or much point in attacking the credibility of the author or publication, but it is by no means a blanket rule. If as in this case it shows the magazine is of a certain bias, and that the author is also, “AND” that they have not actually made any contribution except to build and demolish straw men. Rabbit already sadi we can go through the PM’s random assortment of claims, but most of theme will be moot since neither Rabbit nor any othet sensible people maintain such views anyway.
The comparison to Prisonplanet and Rense and ICH is totally wasted. First by referring to Jones and Prisonplanet as separate you “PROOVE” you hjave never even looked at the sites mentioned. If you did you would discover why Rabbit goes into paroxysms of laughter (Truly) everytime someone attacks the sites’ integrity. they are “Collections” of articles, sourced from all over the net and the world. Some are opinon pieces and as often as not include a rebuttal from “one of yours”. The opinion peices are sometimes in house and sometimes from others, including thousands of writers. Nobody gets anything published by those sites which does not check out in the first round. No un-referenced submissions, they are selective in terms of quality but Rense in particular shows restraint in making own views felt. Jones is a lot more flamboyant and opinionated, but his opinions are shared by more people than share yours probably. The proof is in the pudding Natalie, the PM article doesn’t address anything of significance it was produced as a generic challenge to alternative theories about 911 and as such never made a scrap of difference, both because of obvious ommissions and equally obvious over emphasis placed upon totally irrelevant and minor details. The thing is, even though it was discredited for all the above reasons, it yet failed to address itself to any serious alternative theory or the evidence upon which they are formed. Some like your self have continued to quote it, in the hopes it will fool someone who knows no better, but it has never withstood any challenges and those few challenges offerred were but the tip of the iceberg.
It did not actually bother anyone in the Truth movement. You mistake the thorough response by many like ICH, WRH, JONES and dozens more as meaning it was important. It was simply being thoroughly debunked and as such it is the closest anyone has ever come to mounting any sort of challenge to the 911 truth movement.
Do not assume that because Rabbit posts one or another source that he is being particularly selective, there are many more to choose from.
The proof is in the pudding, Facts, established, Opinions built upon Facts are at least reasonable. Opinions, Theories which fly in the face of FACTS are dead, undefendable.
Natalie, you are going to have to be more careful about saying things like…....Alex Jones said that the seismic spikes are “
Natalie you are stubbirnly using that word FACT to describe opinion again.
Natalie your claims from NIST investigators are just that. They have been successfully challenged in the last reference I gave you and I mean successfully. You are suffering from the terminal disease of believing everything a government claims is the truth. History alone shows this to be LUNACY.
Not that Rabbit merely doubts just because the Government says it. If what they say is not consistent with reality, then Rabbit feels quite justified. In the case of 911, not even other governments believe the USA. Did Nat know the EU and individual nations have lodged official refusals to accept the 911 official story? That is an uncommon step, very uncommon. There was a bit of that about WACO as it happens too.
Nat stop the waffling, you do not have to quote what other say about “Many conspiracy theorists point to FEMA
Hi Whit.
Rabbit dropped a good article on another thead. Thorough statement of Iran situation in context. Here it is. It is a distilled version of what Rabbit has been saying about these things for a while.
Edging to Disaster with Iran.
http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_mike_whi_051007_edging_towards_disas.htm
by Mike Whitney
These are a LOT of awfully smart people to try to hide a deliberate implosion operation from:
“These experts in tall building design, steel structure behavior, fire protection engineering, blast effects, and structural investigations were impaneled on a building performance assessment team (BPAT). This BPAT was sponsored by a partnership of FEMA, SEI/ASCE, the state of New York, the New York City Department of Design and Construction, and the Structural Engineers Association of New York. The team was also supported by the National Council of Structural Engineers Associations, the National Fire Protection Association, the Society of Fire Protection Engineers, the American Concrete Institute, the American Institute of Steel Construction, the Masonry Society, the Council on Tall Buildings and Urban Habitat, and the National Institute of Standards and Technology.”
http://www.pubs.asce.org/ceonline/ceonline02/0502feat.html
(don’t forget to close those URL spaces!) Ahem, ITT.
Engineers are some of the most independent, practically minded people I’ve known. They are not typically subject to bribery, or likely to participate in cover-ups. Integrity would be my vote for the word that best describes their core characteristic. I happen to have several of them in my immediate family, and while they all to a person happen to hate GWB with a passion, non of them subscribe to the notion that he, or agents of the U.S. government were complicit in the events of 9/11. It simply doesn’t add up to them from an engineering, evidentiary or common sense standpoint.
I have to assume now, that you must also believe the first attempt to topple the Twin Towers in 1993 was carried out by, or with the knowledge, consent and/or help of the U.S. Government. Do you have any information or speculation on THAT event?
Rabbit,
“Edging Towards Disaster with Iran” by Mike Whitney is the article you recommended, right? The URL only got me as far as OpEd home page, but I found and read this article, which was insightful and informative.
Yes, I believe that the neo-cons have the intent of taking over Iran as well. It borders and intersects (falls partly within) the ‘golden triangle’ that contains 60% of the worlds recoverable oil. I would hope that the evil neo-con agenda falls apart before they can realize their plan. We’ve screwed the Iranians around enough. They deserve a chance to work out their problems and establish their society without our undermining interference. We’ll have to see how it all plays out. Will America’s military/industrial shadow-government take control of the entire Middle East?
Natalie your last point first,
“I have to assume now, that you must also believe the first attempt to topple the Twin Towers in 1993 was carried out by, or with the knowledge, consent and/or help of the U.S. Government. Do you have any information or speculation on THAT event?”
.......What the hell are you talking about. Why must I believe this? Why must Rabbit have any opinion about it? You are certainly determined to go off on tangents when you can;t deal with facts.
Your source will be dealt with next, but it actually doesn’t prove anything if it is taken as gospel. It is still opinion, and it is well and truly challenged.
The thing is you silly girl, no qualifications are needed to study and understand the significance of what are wholly provable facts.
What part about the following do you fail to follow the significance of?
If Natalie has Engineers in her family as has Rabbit, (half his wifes family are engineers, Danish Engineers and among the best in the world as it happens) So what. Why don’t you ask them to explain the significance of the following. Assuming as it appears it is beyond your limited understanding.
1.Each WTC building collapse occurred at virtually free-fall speed (approximately 10 seconds or less).
2.Each building collapsed, for the most part, into its own footprint.
3.Virtually all the concrete (an estimated 100,000 tons in each tower) on every floor was pulverized into a very fine dust, a phenomenon that requires enormous energy and could not be caused by gravity alone (”
Deal with the facts, stop quoting generic shill swill at the Rabbit. Ask someone to explain gravity to you Nat, that is the first step in understanding that there is a spedd at which those buildings could have fallen at, if gravity alone was responsible for their collapse. It is a very solid FACT, Natalie, Gravity is an old established Fact, among Earth residents.
It may surprise you to know Natalie, that Gravity is constant. It has a measured constant value, and via this we can calculate how fast something will fall. It matters not how heavy the thing is as it happens. Ask one of those engineere relatives to explain it to you. Or a highschool kid who is paying attention in science. They can explain to you why if you drop a stone weighing 10 grams and a steel beam weighing 10 tons from the same height at the same time they will both hit the ground at the same time.
If there is nothing at all to slow the fall, or speed it up that is how long it will take any object to fall a given distance. If there is air resistance, eg: a Feather, or leaf, which is usually a consequence of mass versus surface area, or if some other force acts to even partially counterract the force of gravity the speed of descent will be reduced. The acceleration reduced, or stopped. In the case of a standing building the force of Gravity is in obeyance. Fully counterracted.
In the case of free fall there is nothing at all to counterract the forces. Like for instance, walls, steel structures and all the “Stuff” that goes into making a Skyscraper of the scale of the WTCs.
The buildings came down at virtually free fall speed, one or more may actually have come down faster tha free fall, and a “perfect demolition would do that.
NOTHING ELSE COULD POSSIBLY HAVE BROUGHT DOWN THREE BUILDINGS IN A ROW AT EVEN CLOSE TO FREE FALL SPEED, let alone even faster.
Rabbit says so…..............................................GOD SAYS SO
By the way Rabbit fails to understand your problems with URLS on ITT they always work for him.
Natalie would you mind not introducing anymore topics into this discussion until you been courtious enough to have dealt with rabbit’s posts thus far. They include some very specific statements, all of which ahve immens bearing on the issue, and most of which you are ignoring.. You will note please Rabbit answers your every point and always has, actually.
You will complain about time, well it is you who is disseminating my little chicken. We are about four pages into rabbit repaeating the same points and none of them have been dealt with, they are even numbered, and they have been repeated in full three times. Does Natalie understand what is meant by Dissemination?
Even an average demo would have brought them down at almost free fall, a little faster is sharp work.
As for constantly bleating “But such a huge hoax could never have been perpetrated on so many people and so many experts in the world”
My dear Natalie, it has not been successfully perpetrated, that is the whole reason we are able to debate this with such a wealth of well argued material at hand. The whole fraud has never convinced more than half the people and that number is dwindled way below half now.
Even though an enormous effort has gone into perpetrating and covering up this crime, the evidence of the truth is still overwhelming as you will see. The entire structural evidence from all the crime scenes was disposed of contrary to any normal investigative procedures and its disposal has itself raised serious issues of obstruction of justice issues. The New York Fire Brigade has active and former members involved in actions which ar revealing more lies by governments and more cover-ups.
As for people coming forward, damn right they would, and that is why it is important to consider the stories of the MANY people who have come forward to prove the government complicity and conspiracy. Your theories about 19 Suicide Hijackers omits the 7 live “Hijackers” who were not even in the US. It omits the fact that tere is no evidence to put most of them on the flights, none at all, and this is odd since records about plane flights is normally pretty complete. Your Conspiracy Theory is not looking good Natalie.
Rabbit has not actually contended who exactly or how they ran 911. It is virtually unknowable to Rabbit, but he is sure of enough things to have no doubt that the Government knew about it and certain forces within the government conspired to ensure it happened in much the way it did.
That is a cautious approach Natalie, not a bombastic claim, as you are so fond of trying to attribute to Rabbit. .
Your conspiracy theory relies on bits and pieces of “circumstantial” evidence, much of which is contradictory in itself. These small quite insignificant of themselves, parts are somehow woven into a fantastical fairy tale, which could only happen in the movies, with the usual hollywood penchant for exaggeration and simplification.
The Fact that the normal laws of physics and decades of experience with fires, buildings and airplanes has to be ignored for the GRAND CONSPIRACY THEORY to exist is just nothing.
Natalie, who has Engineers in her Family, knows.
She will know post some blindingly simple probably off topic reply, which will make GOD and Rabbit, blink bemusedly and look at each other hopelessly.
Go and do this experiment for Rabbit Natalie, take a hairpin, a girl is bound to have a hair pin about, and a Rock. In fact take a hair pin and an IRON if you prefer. Take them up to the second story of a building, and drop them both at the same time. This is an important experiment, to help Natalie understand, the COMPLICATED science that she may otherwise feel is only the preserve of priestlike Engineers. they who hold the secrets of the universe. We must not question the engineers, they hold archaic knowledge which is beyond the fathom of ordinary mortals…Ah HA..
Rabbit shall reveal to Natalie some of the “Secrets” of the Engineers, but she must not tell others, no the secrets must be kept.
Another experiment but more basic which should at least partially prepare you for the results of the other experiment, Stand on a Chair, in the middle of the floor and on soft carpet. Not too soft or the chair might fall over.
Step off the chair and observe what happens.
You may wish to repeat this experiment several times to verify that the results are consistent.. Rabbit predicts that you will fall to the floor each and every time, imediately you place your self at the mercy of gravity. Don’t just argue with Rabbit about this, or just ignore the fact, go and prove it to your self, so you will be better able to relate what we are talking about to real life that way. We will try and do this expreriment with the aid of a pillow, or a bean bag later, but that is stage two of the explanation, little Natalie.
A small critique, Rabbit, sir,
I think you meant dissemble, not disseminate. You are disseminating; scattering seeds. Natalie is dissembling; avoiding the issues raised by those seeds.
One engineering aspect of the collapse I haven’t seen addressed is the obvious tipping of the upper stories of at least one tower at the initial failure. If the building was ‘pancaking’, even if you somehow believe it progressed at free fall speeds, the resistance of the lower floors would have imparted a lateral component of force to cause the upper section to tumble, breaking free of the rest of the building. This obviously didn’t happen. The other aspect of this tilt is that it means the upper section and the lower section would only contact each other on at most an outside edge of their cross section, thus imparting unequal force over the whole, making the pancaking theory problematic.
Natalie: In spite of the impressive list of lettered associations in your asce post, it is on its face an ad hoc argument. That is, it is cherry-picking evidence to support an a priori hypothesis, rather than building the hypothesis from the whole set of assembled evidence. Much of the evidence is mere supposition based on what must have happened in order to support the theory, as they implicitly admit by listing the matters that require more research.
That being said, my own interest is not with the particular facts of this case (there is plenty evidence of criminal malfeasance on the part of the Bush Administration without it), but how the controversy is symptomatic of how overweening state secrecy interferes with the average citizen’s ability to be reasonably informed. This is not a problem that sprung into existence on 9/11/01. If you are sincerely curious about what our government might be concealing from you, I have a book for you. It is written by a senior editor of Jane’s Defense Weekly; not a wild eyed ‘conspiracy nut’ by anyone’s standard.
“The Hunt for Zero Point: Inside the Classified World of Antigravity Technology”
by Nick Cook
Check it out and I guarantee your view of ‘conspiracy theories’ and ‘classified secrets’ will be forever altered.
Rabbit:
I’ve had your problem with losing posts. It appears to happen when I open another site in the same window. When I go back to the ITT page then hit ‘submit’ my post doesn’t get printed. I’ve found if I back click to the previous page, I can copy my post, click forward, paste and submit. I hope this is helpful.
Rabbit, when the court cases claiming deliberate demolition are heard and the US Govt is found guilty, I presume you and the plaintaiffs will consider yourself vindicated and your charges validated.
Would it be similar to the vindication and validation these people felt?
http://www.law.com/jsp/article.jsp?id=1051121852966
“Although these experts provided few actual facts of any material support that Iraq actually provided, their opinions, coupled with their qualifications as experts on this issue, provide a sufficient basis for a reasonable jury to draw inferences which could lead to the conclusion that Iraq provided material support to al Qaeda.”
I can’t help but think you aren’t getting what Rabbit is saying about the difference between facts and opinions, Natalie.
What I found especially meaningful in its absence from that story, is any mention of defense rebuttal, or defense witnesses testifying, or indeed any defense legal representation.
I, myself, would feel little vindication from what looks like a kangaroo court.
signing off
“For example, the continued repetition that 9/11 was orchestrated by high level US officials without providing a shred of evidence. “
There are mountains of evidence. If you refuse to look at the evidence, whose fault is that?
Thousands of people have been shouting about this for four years. There are dozens of books, thousands of articles, thousands of websites.
They aren’t all correct. They aren’t all complete, as a massive coverup has been underway. However, there are a number of irrefutable facts about 9-11 that most researchers agree on.
And I’m not going to give you a year’s worth of education in the space of this posting. You have a computer. Fucking use it.
The acceleration rate of any object (regardless of weight) is 15 feet per second per second. (in a vacuum)
second one = 15 ft
second two = 30 ft
second three = 45, etc.
“I have to assume now, that you must also believe the first attempt to topple the Twin Towers in 1993 was carried out by, or with the knowledge, consent and/or help of the U.S. Government. Do you have any information or speculation on THAT event?”
Does the NY Times count?
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/wtcbomb.html
Natalie, I’m going to assume that you’re genuine. You have a lot to learn about the way the US government operates.
Who Bombed the U.S. World Trade Center?
Thanks Luminous Beauty, Rabbit really should have a dictionary handy, at home computer I have and occasionally double check a word not used much before. Rabbit has been going for a couple of weeks with that mistake. Dissemble
Spelling is another issue of course. Trouble is Rabbit can type VERY fast with his two paws and the few seconds spellcheck sorts out the common mistake with left and right paws wrong order. The letters are usually there, but need to be re-arranged. No spellcheck here. It is Rabbit’s hard to copy “signature” though and I like the security it gives. Living in some trepidation of a False Rabbit turning up one of these days.
The problem with losing posts we are talking about is different. The type you are talking of is known and as you say one can return to the previous page and copy. But, this one actually goes forever. No retrieval, Going to previous page is blank in comments. For Rabbit it seems to happen especially when he tries to set out the precise way in which the WTCs would have been demolished. The technical details are much more clear and there are a lot of words which could be suspect, epecially in combination. The feeling for me is that it is some some of “security system”. There is a time lapse involved when the posts go like this and everything seems in order until the page pops up, minus your post. I’ve even copied the whole post, only to have the computer crash in place of losing the post, on those two occasions. If it sounds weird it is, but Rabbit admits this computer is a weird one too. It can crash easily if one asks too much of it, without warning. It also crashes when anybody tries to hack into it. This has proven to be such a useful side effect that Rabbit just lets it be.
WTH has got the Gravity idea. Actually Rabbit knows it as 0.98 meters/ second/second
This relates to how fast Gravity alone would have pulled those buildings down. It gives a theoretical figure. The figure pressupposes there is no counterforce being offerred.
By now Natalie should have jumped off the chair a few times and noticed the predictable result, that she falls down. Hopefully having proved to herself with the pin and the Iron that Gravity is constant and does not care how heavy something is, she is ready for the next experiment.
Place a thick pillow, or a beanbag, or several pillows between the floor and where you are stepping off the chair.
A table or higher place would be better, but Rabbit does not want Natalie to hurt herself.
Now you can step onto the cushion and observe the difference it makes to haow fast you hit the floor. You may have to repeat the experiment a few times to get the feel of it. You could also step into a pool full of water, and see what difference this makes.
The point of this?
Well, there was a bit more substantial resistance to the collapsing WTCs especially at the outset, than a few pillows or some water.
This is why anybody with a gram of sense has to conclude that there is no way that THREE buildings in a row all managed to hit the ground as if there was no structural resistance whatsoever. Not even the resistance a coloumn of Jelly would have presented.
It is in the timings. Rabbit thinks that a precise analysis of all the timings will actually show at least one of the buildings exceeded free fall speed. That one is the BIG DADDY ELEPHANT. The BIG RED ONE, in amongst all those Pink ones.
Here is some recent stuff worth looking at. Looking a bit more at Giuliani, and especially Silverstein. Zakheim gets a mention too.
http://www.libertyforum.org/showflat.php?Cat=&Board=consp_911&Number=293499967
Thankyou John, Rabbit has been hoping you would come and take some of the load off.
Shall we go into Rodriguez in detail, for the benefit of those playing at home?
An introduction to William Rodriguez, Natalie.
——————————————————————-
WORLD TRADE CENTER RESCUE HERO SUES BUSH AND OTHERS UNDER RICO STATUTE,
ALLEGES WILLFUL COMPLICITY IN ATTACKS THAT KILLED 3,000.
By Margaret Atheling Rowe
PHILADELPHIA, PA, OCTOBER 22, 2004
On September 11, 2001, William Rodriguez, a maintenance worker at the World Trade Center in Manhattan, single-handedly rescued fifteen people. The only employee with the master key to the North Tower staircases, he led firefighters up the stairs, unlocking doors as he went, aiding in the evacuation of hundreds of additional people who, but for his efforts, might have perished. Although his job description did not include saving lives, Rodriguez re-entered the building three times after the first plane struck, and was the last person to exit the North Tower alive. He survived the collapse of the North Tower by diving beneath a fire truck to avoid the avalanche of concrete and steel. After onsite treatment for his injuries, Rodriguez plunged right back into rescue efforts at the site. At dawn the next morning, Rodriguez returned to Ground Zero from his home in Jersey City, to continue to aid in rescue efforts.
Later, Rodriguez became an unofficial spokesman for survivors, among other things helping to secure an amnesty for undocumented aliens, many of them Latinos, and in the creation of the World Trade Center Memorial Fund. Although he lost his job of 19 years and his means of livelihood
Attorney Berg acknowledges that Rodriguez
The truth is that there is no definitive evidence that there were any Arabs on those planes, and even less proof concerning the supposed identities of the alleged hijackers.
“On September 6-7, 2001, 4,744 put options (a speculation that stock prices will go down) are purchased on United Air Lines stock. There are only 396 call options (speculation that the stock will go up) at the same time. Many of the United Air Lines puts are purchased through Deutschebank/AB Brown, a firm managed until 1998 by the current Executive Director of the CIA, A.B. “Buzzy” Krongard. This is reported in The New York Times and The Wall Street Journal.”
http://www.counterpunch.org/nimmo1003.html
“Newsbytes reported on September 27, 2001, that employees of Odigo, an instant messaging company in Herzliyya, Israel, received messages warning of the attacks two hours before they occurred. Alex Diamandis, vice president of sales and marketing for Odigo, confirmed that workers in Israeli received the messages. The story was subsequently carried by CNN and Ha’aretz in Israel.”
http://www.counterpunch.org/nimmo1003.html
“On August 11, 2001, US Navy Lt. Delmart “Mike” Vreeland, held in Toronto on U.S. fraud charges and claiming to be an officer in U.S. Naval intelligence, gave to Canadian authorities a sealed envelope. On September 14, 2001, Canadian jailers open Vreeland’s sealed envelope to find a letter detailing attacks against the WTC and Pentagon. Source: The Toronto Star, Oct. 23, 2001, and Toronto Superior Court Records.”
http://www.counterpunch.org/nimmo1003.html
These are just a few examples of foreknowledge of 9/11.
More pieces of the puzzle.
The “US Navy Lt. Delmart
AND we are still only showing that the official story is a lie.
No proposals from any WILD EYED CONSPIRACY THEORISTS about what did happen, just a steady and documented listing of facts which all have a bearing on any theory, one might be proposing to develop.
Question the FACTS dittoheads, Shills and Trolls, if you can. Allow us to further prove them if we must, but deal with the facts, and then fit that into your own conspiracy theories, if you can. If you cannot, then ask us, we have a few theories as it happens about what happened.
The FACTS are not able to be questioned. You ignore instead the FACTS, and concentrate on repeating your opinions in as many guises as you can, but opinions which do not comply with the FACTS are not worth the electrons you use expressing them.
1. Each WTC building collapse occurred at virtually free-fall speed (approximately 10 seconds or less).
I’d be interested in some professional documentation of the metholody used to actually measure the speed of collapse, (for example, wouldn’t video analysis would have to include the horizontal distance from the camera to the building, the vertical angle up from horizontal, and confirmation that the video is in real time) and an explanation of exactly how one can even ascertain when the event ended, given the massive clouds of dust and debris. Why is that after presumably hours and hours of study by scores of engineers and related scientists, apparently little was found unexpected in the rate of fall, given the extremely unusual (and relatively lightweight) design of the building. Are there any other examples of a similarly designed building being knowingly deliberately demolished that one could use to compare the rates of collapse? In other words, is the rate of collapse of the WTC really THAT remarkable?
2. Each building collapsed, for the most part, into its own footprint.
This seems to be well within expectations given the design of the building. It was not one rigid structure that would be subject to “tipping over”. There was insufficient lateral force to cause the building to fall far from straight down.
3. Virtually all the concrete (an estimated 100,000 tons in each tower) on every floor was pulverized into a very fine dust, a phenomenon that requires enormous energy and could not be caused by gravity alone (”
1: No Natalie, although such confirmation is available and Rabbit shall find it for you. You only have to measure the time it takes for the building to start collapsing to the time it takes to hit ht ground. The distance is known.None of those other funny things you mention matter.
2: Yes and no. The building would be designed to collapes into it’s own footprint and as Rabbit has before said it would by about the halfway point have probably levelled out to a uniform collapse, for reasons which can be detailed but which could be taken on faith if one considers the desirability of this type of design even. This does not explain why the things fell so evenly from the start as they did. The design we are talking about would have ensured continued resistance at every point which was not subject to catastrophic force at the same time. Parts would have resisted and the collapse would have begun uneven, this would have evened itself out by some point as the momentum of the collapsing mass became a sufficiently powerful battering ram. This point would not have been able to be reached in an instant as even a casual timing of the events shows has happened.
3: All the specifications for the building materials is available and nobody has raised a credible defence to any of these claims in several years, if Nat would like to try on this particular issue, be my guest. Rabbit doubts it will get you anywhere, since it seems unlikely you are the first to think of it. As far as testing the actual remains, that is impossible of course because they were disposed of in an uncommon and questionable fashion by the government. Obstruction of justice is what it is usually called. se some of the links already given.
4: But Natalie, one does not expect to see those Explosions happening 30 floors below the point of collapse.
5: Go and have a look at other buildings which have collapsed and stop quoting a discredited document. The process you have just described has no bearing on the lengths of the columns or how they were connected.
These are just generic statements, which pretend that certain information such as photo and video evidence, as well as archival evidence do not allow certain things like how the collapse looked, or how the buildings were constructed, to be known.
Natalie, READ everything you have been given.
Nitpicking these bits and pieces while ignoring the overall picture is weird, even if Rabbit is used to you by now.
PRIORITIES.—GRAVITY. VIDEOS. WITNESSES. MONEY…......
No apologies necessary, your least is as good as your best and that is enough for Rabbit anytime, bittersweet Natalie. Do the rest of the posts and Rabbit will give you some Witnesses to consider afterwards.
By the way, back on 1: again, does Natalie know what seismic records are?
Has Natalie tried jumping onto pillows yet?
That will be necessary before we get into times of collapse too.
David:
Thanks for the Nimmo/Baraka link. I followed it to the original poem and Baraka’s reply to NJ’s governor’s cowardly demands. Too bad J. Cline isn’t reading this, since he has expressed his disdain of poetry. I found the conclusion of the essay especially compelling:
“
>1:
Luminous Beauty,
Glad you liked the Nimmo article, found the Baraka poem and liked it too. Here’s a little taste to tempt others.
Somebody Blew Up America
by AMIRI BARAKA
Somebody Blew Up America
They say its some terrorist,
some barbaric
A Rab,
in Afghanistan
It wasn’t our American terrorists
It wasn’t the Klan or the Skin heads
Or the them that blows up nigger
Churches, or reincarnates us on Death Row
It wasn’t Trent Lott
Or David Duke or Giuliani
Or Schundler, Helms retiring
.. excerpted from ..
http://www.counterpunch.org/poem1003.html
I hear a lot of silence on all that 9-11 evidence I posted yesterday.
WORLD TRADE CENTER TASK FORCE INTERVIEW
CAPTAIN KARIN DESHORE
INTERVIEW DATE NOVEMBER 7 2001
First collapse:
“THERE WAS NO AIR. WHATEVER THIS EXPLOSION WAS SIMPLY SUCKED ALL THE OXYGEN OUT OF THE AIR. YOU COULDNT BREATHE AND THE FEELING OF SUFFOCATION, I CANT EXPLAIN NO FURTHER ON THAT.”
Second collapse:
“SOMEWHERE AROUND THE MIDDLE OF THE WORLD
TRADE CENTER THERE WAS THIS ORANGE AND RED FLASH COMING OUT. INITIALLY IT WAS JUST ONE FLASH. THEN THIS FLASH JUST KEPT POPPING ALL THE WAY AROUND THE BUILDING AND THAT BUILDING HAD STARTED TO EXPLODE. THE POPPING SOUND, AND WITH EACH POPPING SOUND IT WAS INITIALLY AN ORANGE AND THEN RED FLASH CAME OUT OF THE BUILDING AND THEN IT WOULD JUST GO ALL AROUND THE BUILDING ON BOTH SIDES AS FAR AS I COULD SEE. THESE POPPING SOUNDS AND THE EXPLOSIONS WERE GETTING BIGGER, GOING BOTH UP AND DOWN AND THEN ALL AROUND THE BUILDING”
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyregion/20050812_WTC_GRAPHIC/met_WTC_histories_full_01.html
I like David Ray Griffin’s take on 9-11 as well:
WMV
http://www.911busters.com/911_new_video_productions/WMV/DR_Griffin_Madison.wmv
MOV
http://www.911busters.com/911_new_video_productions/MOV/DR_Griffin_Madison.mov
-ps-
Natalie:
The steel didn’t melt.
That is a lie.
Jet fuel can’t melt steel. The fires didn’t burn long enougn. The South Tower had most of its fuel ejected in a massive fireball at the impact of the plane. The South Tower fire was under control and about to be extinguished when the people responsible started the explosive chain reaction and made the tower disappear forever.
That’s what happened. If you refuse, for psychological reasons, to accept the possibility, then there’s not much point discussing.
1] You have not seen very many videos of it Natalie. You are simply wrong about the end not being visible. Rememeber the seismics again to. There is also sound on some of the videos which make it easier yet to judge.
The times for collapse are known, established, and no question actually. Have not yet taken the time to find them, but shall do.
2] Nothing about counterweights heard before no. It still makes no difference, because the force of gravity does not take the weight, or mass into account. The tilting was as you say noticeable at the start, but it righted itself in such a way that only complete and even collapse of the entire understory could have been responsible. The tilting you mentioned was momentary and looks like it fell towards a weakened corner slightly quicker, but the rest of the building was following and continued to catch up within a couple of stories.
Even more important though Natalie, this only happened on the one of the buildings. Yet they both still fell at the same rates as each other and in IDENTICAL fashion. They also both fell at the same rate as WTC 7. The building which nobody in Shill land even wants to talk about. It is understandable that the official story ignores WTC 7, as if it never was there.
By the way the idea of counterweights offsetting windage is the wackiest theory Rabbit has ever heard. You do need to do some basic physics comprehension. Do the chair pillow thing, it will eventually make sense. Actually Rabbit thought last night , a cardboard box would be a better experiment for our purposes. You will take slightly longer to reach the ground as some of your momentum is checked by the initial resistance of the box.
3] Natalie, there are many more people who do not believe the official theory than who do. Just in NEW YORK alone, fifty percent of the people believe the government is lying. One of the polls has been given somewhere already. There is simply no credible challenge to the theories we are looking at. All the main and certainly the only credible challenges are directed at the official Conspiracy Theory. No point trying to pretend we are a small band of looneys. Nat the tide is already high but is rising on a daily basis. You must not get much news around where you live. You are actually the small and dwindling band of looneys who still cling to the official lie. God only knows why, because the whole box of lies is so transparent and it is literally going to court cases right now which should see the whole case on these matters closed, sooner rather than later. You remind Rabbit of some little girl with her plastic bucket and spade, desperately working to keep up the wall she has built to keep back the tide. The tide is coming up darling, and it is going right around the edges of your wall. You just can’t build a wall long enough or big enough to keep back the tide forever. What’s more dearheart, the summer is nearly over. You might have to think about changing your clothing before long.
4] Links coming up. “30 floors below you might get debris clouds breaking out. We
Rabbit is a welder as it happens.
We use Oxy-acetylene to heat steel for bending or cutting. The stuff is expensive, and if Kerosene (Jet Fuel) could be made to burn hot enough to bend steel, don’t you think we would do it?
Even LPG is much cheaper than OXY Acetylene, and it sure as hell burns a lot hotter than Jet Fuel ever could be made to. We don’t use LPG to even heat up steel enough to bend it.
As far as the jet fuel, which was mostly incinerated in the initial fireball as John points out again, having been responsible for the collapses is concerned…............NO DICE.
Natalie says she does not wish to jump off chairs for Rabbit. How about getting a kerosene burner, you can get these good ones which can be pumped up and they supply the fuel in a fine mist in a jet burner type arrangement. This will give you a much hotter flame than what the firs in the WTC’s sustained.
Take a piece of 4-5mm thick steel angle iron (25x25mm) 1 meter long and hold the hottest part of your little jet engine up against the middle of the steel section, hold the steel horizontally, in a vice.
If you can get the steel to bend under it’s own weight in that position, you will have given the official theory more than a fair chance of being proven. *HINT* If it has not bent after a few hours, give up.
You might want to try this with LPG just as a comparison. If you do this first, you probably won’t bother trying something even cooler, like Jet Fuel.
A nail file and a gas lighter?
Hi, Rabbit,
Just checking in. Haven’t had much free time lately. I haven’t much to contribute here as I agree with almost everything you are presenting. Seems like this thread is dwindling as the forces of self-righteous pretense shrink back into their comfort zones of fearful projection, refusing to own nothing but glorious nobility and the best intentions. If only reality were so simple.
You are certainly a busy and dedicated Rabbit.
‘The word awesome occurs.
I was hoping the discussion would shift a little, back laterally towards a more philosophical/ historical/political perspective. I’m a bit out of my league on the technical aspects of experts vs. counter experts. I’ve read enough to know that the official story doesn’t seem to hold water. ‘But the technical strokes works best, I think, within the context of the larger painting.
This was actually my first experience of logging onto a reader forum of this sort and and exchanging views etc. It’s been an interesting and educational experience. If you’d care to, you might suggest other interesting site/threads where this kind of discursive engagement is going on.
Hats off… Keep on keeping on.
I wonder what happened to Jay.
Now off to my more contrete chores.
>3.Virtually all the concrete (an estimated 100,000 tons in each tower) on every floor was pulverized into a very fine dust, a phenomenon that requires enormous energy and could not be caused by gravity alone (”
Your tests are interesting, Rabbit, but wouldn’t one want to try harder to duplicate the conditions and the structure in the tower, on a smaller scale of course? Obviously the steel in the tower had much more weight on it than simply “its own”.
The relatively thin steel trusses were connected at each end by clips, not clamped between a vise. Why not try to duplicate the type of attachment at the ends instead of using a totally different method? Doesn’t sound very scientific to me.
Hi Whit
Rabbit has only been on and off forums over the years. Most of late and it is easy from how rabbit works. In between setting up Rotational moulding oven, and fitting Kayaks etc, is plenty time for Internet.
Your contributions have been appreciated and often highly thought of by others as well as Rabbit. This is actuallt rabbit’s favorite site since the concentration of intelligent and thoughful people is high, there are not too many and especially there are not so many articles and threads going that discussions become too diluted.
this is the main criticism of Rabbit’s other favoured hunting grounds of the moment, Washington Monthly. There are many souls and many threads, but a few very fine Rabbit friends among them too. The quality and variety of Trolls and Shills on this site, is particularly enterntaining too I might add.
They are essential to much of the best presentations of information we achieve, and this site has its moments. Rabbit is a fan.
Thinking at the moment about setting up a site which will allow certain discussions to continue, with articles being added as part of the dicussion. Keep the threads going, and develop it towards an useful conclusion. Even an action based conclusion.
There will also be a kind of zoo, where certain classic discussions will be highlighted and maximum use can be made of much of the time and effort that many of us put into this ultimately democratic process.
Nobody says that explosives were needed to pulverise the concrete, just that explosives was the most likely cause of such pulverisation. What an odd little sideline. The sort of tests you are describing are of no more necessity than the sort Rabbit is ironically suggesting you perform. The point Rabbit is trying to make is that the results of these sorts of things is very well understood. Gravity, energy all sorts of physics principles exist which make it silly for Natalie to try and prove Steel can be heated enough to be weakened by jet fuel, or that things don’t fall at a certain rate unless they are helped or hindered.
Natalie you are essentially standing and saying, “BUT has anyone done any tests to prove that “THIS” steel will not melt at the temperature of a barbecue, or that THIS structure will only fall at the speed of gravity.
As for your Speculation, on matters which are easy to establish, Rabbit will return.
Natalie, this is nitpicking, you cannot prove the buildings came down under gravity alone, you can only bring some doubt to bear on individual selected issues, you cannot deny that the explosives theory accounts for everything, INCLUDING WITNESSES. Were you maybe hoping we could get all tied up with engineering details, which can as said only show some parts of your theory stand alone, but can never DISPROVE our theory. We can disprove your theory, on several points. Not least of which is, witnesses.
As for the structure in the world trade centers, they were many tens of centimeters thick steel, and they stood upright.
Taking a much thinner, even in scale, piece of steel and holding it horizontal while heating it, will DEFINATELY subject that steel to greater stress than the WTC design allowed for. That Mini Mouse, would be obvious, even to a girl. Rabbit even suggested you try it with an even hotter flame than “your jet fuel” theory can account for. He told you to try this because he already knows how much it takes to SOFTEN metal.
The thing is the hottest flame which could have been achieved by jet fuel, in a running jet engine, would have only been enough to soften the structural steel, even without non-flammable insulation in the way, after several hours. Most of this jet fuel was incinerated by the VERY uncharacteristic explosions which resulted on impact. That can be seen in the film. The fireball can be measured, and the amount of fuel required to produce such a fireball calculated to within a few liters. PYRO’s do it all the time, on movie sets.
This was a classic pyrotechnic effect. Not once but twice, perfect fireball explosions. They had an explosive dispersant and all round ignition. Both those perfect fireballs. They looked quite normal to TV viewrs of course. They looked exactly like Plane explosions look in the movies. That is the whole point. EXPLOSIONS in the movies are not the real thing. They are pyrotechnic effects used to impress people, because actually the real thing usually lacks the grandeur. The fireball of a real fuel explosion, is one ball where the immediately available vapours ignite and then a much longer growing conflagration, in which the bulk of the fuel burns. Not anywhere as impressive as a huge fireball and smoke. The thing with real fuel explosions too is that they leave everything around burning too and this is not often the idea on a set which may have to be used over and over. The pyrotechnic effects are much more impressive and controlled. Just like the WTC ones.
A real high explosives explosion lacks much flame and smoke unless it has blown something up which gives either or both.
Fuel does not explode or all burn at once, unless it is vapourised or at least atomised (Finely dispersed)
The fireballs included most of the jet fuel, if not all. The resulting fire should not have been very hot and would have cooled quickly to a much lower temperature, within minutes at most. This would mean much more smoke of course, since most of the things left burning would be curtains and carpets and wood and plastic. This to an experienced eye is the type of fire that was seen after the initial fireballs. The amount of smoke and lack of flames visible even at the end, suggested the fires were more or less out. This would mean that the STEEL structures which may have had some heating at various, by no means all, points would have been cooling for some time before, as the fires were diminishing. By the time the smoke was thickest the buildings should have been stabilising, assuming they were ever seriously compromised structurally in the first place, which I in all sincerity…....DOUBT.
Rabbit works in Metal, is an Industrial Chemist and Pyrotechnician.
Firemen in the buildings said that the fires were out,.........WITNESSES.
The following link includes much technical detail as well as photos of the floors before concrete was poured. Notice the steel re-enforcing mesh laid out.
http://911research.wtc7.net/mirrors/guardian2/sixty-state-street/construction.htm
—————————————————————
Natalie on your comments about how scientific Rabbit’s test is , by the way. We are only testing to see if the flame from jet fuel is hot enough to weaken steel. Therefore it is eminently useful for the purpose.
Please note that Rabbit was the nerdy kid with glasses and who did great in science and biology, back in school days. Natalie was obviously not paying attention, she was probably wagging school to smoke with the bad kids behind the bike sheds. Rabbit is quite conversant with the scientific method.
—————————————————————-
Yes upon further reading of this site it has much of technical value, thanks for asking Natalie.
“Strangely, the authors of the FEMA Report “forget” to mention the 24 x 18 inch metal plates that were covered with shear studs and also set in the concrete slab. These plates (together with the 6 foot long diagonal bars and the welded and bolted truss connections) provided a strong connection between the floor slab and the perimeter wall.”
http://911research.wtc7.net/mirrors/guardian2/sixty-state-street/construction.htm
————————————————-
The following is a short entry but it makes a few calculations which do the trick. There are so many ways to PROVE the buildings were brought down with explosives, it is incredible that the lies have come this far.
http://www.serendipity.li/wot/wtc_demolition_init.htm
—————————————————-
Natalie there is so much about the engineering, for our case that it is actually a little overwhelming. There is a huge amount of sites repeating the “EXACT” offial story, word for word but with different sources, as if there are lots of arguments for the official LIES. But there really is only one. The fantastic version invented by FEMA and co.
—————————————
“Overall, it comes as a great surprise that the impact of a Boeing 767 bought down either tower. Indeed, many experts are on record as saying that the towers would survive the impact of the larger and faster Boeing 747. In this regard, see professor Astaneh-Asl’s simulation of the crash of the much, much larger and heavier Boeing 747 with the World Trade Center. Professor Astaneh-Asl teaches at the University of California, Berkeley.”
http://nerdcities.com/guardian/WTC/wtc-microsoft.htm
———————————————————-
A real experiment for you Natalie.
A bunch of different articles, all detailing clearly why the Official LIE cannot stand. From a purely engineering viewpoint.
http://911research.wtc7.net/disinfo/experts/articles/sciam01/sci_am1.html
http://www.cam.net.uk/home/nimmann/peace/explosions.htm
http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM/0112/Eagar/Eagar-0112.html
Lots of interesting info, Rabbit. I will investigate it when I have time, maybe this weekend. I especially liked the last link. Did you make another mistake in posting that one? :-)
Your implosion theory made the big time today. Someone of your same mind called in to the second most listened to radio talk show in America and presented the theory. His reception wasn’t exactly warm, though. Something like: “Get off my phone ya big dope!!”
It’s a start.
Natalie,
This site might be useful… and it gives a reference list of a number of other sites at the end of the article. (copy and paste)
http://bbs.taishan.com/viewtopic.php?t=608&sid=68d6d68f4d83fcaf3c06e6357e1766d8
For info on Prof Astaneh-Asl
Here is an animation/simulation that does an excellent job of demonstrating gravitational free-fall and solid resistance.
http://www.planetdan.net/pics/misc/georgie.htm
Thanks, whit, I was especially impressed by the link labeled:
“Why are we not allowed to question the Holocaust”
You might try using tinyurl to cut down on the lengths of long links, which are usually messed up by the message board for some reason. The taishan link needed to have the space between the fours closed and one of the fours eliminated to work.
ITT, if you read this, could you please reinstitute making links clickable for us html dummies?
Honestly don’t usually have problems posting or using links on this board.
Rabbit admits he never even looked at the Professor Astaneh experiment. He didn’t think Nat would either.
Perhaps we should all stop being lazy and google HTML and get our act in gear. Actually though Rabbit doesn’t mind the simple format. Simple is usually best. Keep it Forrest Gump, coming from a technician.
Nat just a reminder, the Implosion theory of the WTCs is more or less mainstream. It can hardly be suggested it is a little held or supported belief. A survey of the number of people who actually support the theory will show far more do than don’t.
No amount of pretending can change the fact that the official lie has never been successful in convincing anyone who took the time to check. This is why the Truth movement is a growing tide as evidenced in surveys and polls, as evidenced in legal actions and as evidenced in desperate actions like putting much energy into INTERNET propaganda. Both the original flawed claims reproduced in many formats as if that makes any difference to the omissions and outright false claims. Also by ensuring that there are shills aplenty with a list of the main points to avoid discussing and the things which should be emphasised and repeated.
WITNESSES ............................. Would have to be one of the top “NEVER ACKNOWLEDGE” categories, it would seem.
Whit that last link is a better illustrated version again and Rabbit recommends it for ease of understanding.
Luminous Beauty your link is by far the most poignant overall.. Rabbit is looking forward to a screen saver which will be that face as it gets the rope, chair or jab.
Does Prof. Astaneh-Asl personally subscribe to the “deliberate implosion theory”? It appears to me that he is simply cited as being troubled by the remains of the WTC being disposed of too quickly, although I wouldn’t be surprised if a professor from Berkley would attempt to exonerate the terrorists.
Are there any polls by legitimate polling organizations that have asked the specific question or similar: Do you believe that the WTC collapsed because of a terrorist attack, or because of explosives planted by our own government?
Unless you can cite such polls, (and I’m sorry they can’t be foreign polls and they must be specific to the theory of collapse) I don’t know how you can credibly state that the theory is somehow “mainstream”. I do not recall a single report, speculative or otherwise in the “mainstream” U.S. media even addressing the theory.
Internet propaganda indeed, Rabbit. The overwhelming bulk of propaganda seems to be coming from the “alternative explanations” crowd. You may be a pyro-technical welding bunny, but you’re also a projecting and transferring one.
Oooh! Natalie is a psychiatric clinician. Or is it Cliopatra’s syndrome? That is rich. I can’t refute your ideas so I’ll belittle the legitimacy of your sources and call you crazy. This is about as close to Natalie can get to admitting maybe she doesn’t know. It’s the American way, Rabbit. Denial and avoidance. Followed by, ‘No, you’re the one in denial’. One big dysfunctional family.
For a real world example of projection, look at this; ” I wouldn
I’m curious what Natalie thinks about the ‘Anthrax Letters’.
Abolhassan Astaneh-Asl, Ph.D., P.E.
Professor Department of Civil and Environmental Engineering
University of California, Berkeley
Natalie, Professor Astaneh received a research grant from the National Science Foundation to go to New York and to Investigate the collapse of twin towers of the World Trade Center. This may have been because he was quite highly qualified and recognized in the ‘scientific community’ as an expert in his field.
Are you sure that your disregard for U.C. Berkeley is really warranted, Natalie? True, it has the reputation of being a hotbed of political unrest (in the past). However, if you try to be a little objective and open-minded about it, it did turn out, if my understanding is correct, that the Berkeley radicals were right on the Vietnam thing and that our government, YOUR government did deceive the public about the real deal, the Bay of Tonkin never happened, and the military-industrial complex that General/President Eisenhower tried to warn us against made a shitload of money, taxpayers $. ‘And that elements of the M/I complex were implicated as being involved in the assination of JFK who was planning to kill their golden goose. ‘Or do you have expert testimony validating the “government’s” (magical bullet) theory?
I should admit that I attended the School of Invironmental Design at U.C. Berkeley back in the 70s. I ran out of funds (G.I. bill, scholarships, job, etc) just before my senior year and never did become an architect (although I did go on to get a masters in education elsewhere. However, the “education” I got at Berkeley has been one of the defining factors in my life. Berkeley is an excellent school… one of the finest in the nation, and has excellent academic credentials. By the way, where were you educated, my snobbish friend?
I agree with you, Natalie, and some of the stuff on the internet is bogus, disappointing, and unreliable both in terms of accessing it and in content. However, that does not happen to be the case ONLY with sites that you might regard as liberal/progressive/radical. Cyberland is in constant flux and there is little enforced accoutability. The internet is widely used for right-wing hate-mongering as well, is it not?
I apologize if I given you bad steers. Actually I’m more of a non-fiction book person. I find the info in books generally to be more concrete, better organized within a wider context, and easier to discern the validity of according to citations. You might try “War on Freedom” or one of the other books I suggested. I could make some recommendations if you’d like. ‘And you could recommend to me as well.
#1
Published on Friday, October 14, 2005 by the Toledo Blade (Ohio)
Greater Role for Military? Call Out the Posse (Comitatus)
by Marilou Johanek
The brains behind the Bush Administration must be otherwise occupied these days. How else to explain the President’s recent public displays of grasping at straws? Telling an increasingly skeptical nation to trust his instincts on elevating his devoted personal lawyer to the highest court in the land was akin to saying “trust me, I know what I’m doing in Iraq” or “trust me, everything’s under control after Katrina and Rita.”
Honestly, where is Karl Rove or Karen Hughes when we need them? The mastermind of the President’s stunning rise from failed businessman with a pedigree to head of the free world is busy trying to save his own neck. He’s up to his eyeballs in a developing scandal that involves exposing a CIA operative to teach her anti-administration spouse a lesson. In between multiple grand jury appearances, Karl could hardly be expected to proofread every Oval Office script.
Then there’s the formidable Ms. Hughes, the President’s chief Texas confidante and born-again cheerleader. In between traveling far and wide to patronize Arab audiences she is supposed to be charming, the woman can hardly be expected to run interference for a bungling boss back home.
But someone with even half a brain in the Bush circle of cherished cronies needs to nix a slippery suggestion by the commander in chief that the military should take a greater role in responding to homeland disasters. The very idea that the Pentagon would expand its job description from fighting wars to resolving any homeland crises from natural disasters to man-made ones should make the skin crawl on every freedom-loving American.
Published on Friday, October 14, 2005 by the Toledo Blade (Ohio)
Greater Role for Military? Call Out the Posse (Comitatus)
by Marilou Johanek
The brains behind the Bush Administration must be otherwise occupied these days. How else to explain the President’s recent public displays of grasping at straws? Telling an increasingly skeptical nation to trust his instincts on elevating his devoted personal lawyer to the highest court in the land was akin to saying “trust me, I know what I’m doing in Iraq” or “trust me, everything’s under control after Katrina and Rita.”
Honestly, where is Karl Rove or Karen Hughes when we need them? The mastermind of the President’s stunning rise from failed businessman with a pedigree to head of the free world is busy trying to save his own neck. He’s up to his eyeballs in a developing scandal that involves exposing a CIA operative to teach her anti-administration spouse a lesson. In between multiple grand jury appearances, Karl could hardly be expected to proofread every Oval Office script.
Then there’s the formidable Ms. Hughes, the President’s chief Texas confidante and born-again cheerleader. In between traveling far and wide to patronize Arab audiences she is supposed to be charming, the woman can hardly be expected to run interference for a bungling boss back home.
But someone with even half a brain in the Bush circle of cherished cronies needs to nix a slippery suggestion by the commander in chief that the military should take a greater role in responding to homeland disasters. The very idea that the Pentagon would expand its job description from fighting wars to resolving any homeland crises from natural disasters to man-made ones should make the skin crawl on every freedom-loving American.
# 2
But there was Mr. Bush, in his common man attire of rolled-up shirt sleeves, ruminating about letting the military loose on its own people. He dropped the little jack-boot nugget in a post-Katrina speech meant to deflect attention from the incompetence of the federal government in responding to the natural disaster days after the fact.
If the military can get the job done on American soil lickety-split, why shouldn’t it be allowed to do so? Congress ought to think about amending a law that restricts the homeland role of federal troops, he opined, as visions of army tanks rolling through American cities danced in our heads.
The Posse Comitatus Act of 1878 was passed as a sane response to the huge buildup of federal troops in the South during Reconstruction. The 127-year-old law that restricts the military to its core competency of waging war and defending the nation - not acting as police at home - is as relevant now as it was 127 years ago.
Soldiers who are trained to kill should not cross into civilian activities like law enforcement even in a domestic disaster the size of Katrina. Congress must resist any political pressure to consider inflating the authority of active duty forces even after such catastrophic events. Federalizing a disaster response on American soil is a dangerous proposition fraught with fearful scenarios, not the least of which is abuse of power.
Where does one draw the line on using military force in a national crisis? And how easily can jurisdictional boundaries be blurred? What constitutes a national disaster worthy of troop intervention on Main Street? Could unwieldy war protesters converging on Washington be controlled by armed infantrymen and tanks? Would a hostile strike by thousands of factory workers be enough to call out the military?
Under Posse Comitatus, active duty military can act in a variety of support functions to offer disaster relief, from providing logistics to distributing humanitarian aid. But first-responders to homeland security must be civilian-led: police officers, firefighters, medical and rescue crews, and, if necessary, the citizen soldiers of the National Guard.
Not to worry, assures the President even as the military crafts a plan to organize specially trained and equipped active-duty armed forces to respond immediately to national disasters in ostensibly supporting roles with the Nation Guard.
Everything is under control, say Dubya’s preoccupied handlers, even as their charge nudges the nation into a scary place with greater military authority at home.
Why are the National Guard, who are supposed to be protecting and supporting the public on the homefront, all in Iraq killing and getting killed… And the U.S. regular military, who are supposed to be fighting our wars, on the homefront taking charge of domestic national emergencies.
Is this the big blend, where we morph into a police state? ... ‘AS the policing of the world gets more and more “privatized”.
” Is this the big blend, where we morph into a police state? ...
Whit….............. Luminous Beauty…..........
Rabbit is often humbled by the scintillating insight of others and you have both given him pause to reflect and not for the first time.
You have the advantage over Rabbit in understanding your kin and land, naturally. Yet it is seldom so obvious and the insights are appreciated. Luminous Beauty, maybe interests you to know Rabbit has first born son born on same date as Robert Zimmerman. He happens to be a very Gifted guitarist, at 14 he has been playing for 8 years and teaches a half dozen students himself now.
Rabbit rests himself by the strength of strings….......................
no voice can hope to hum….................^^...........................
The Cat is probably number 2 favorite, Rabbit has a GREAT recent interview with Dylan, in archives, and it really is an interview!
This might be the only real interview, Rabbit can’t remember him doing more than grunting on other occassions and Rabbit has waited hours at concerts a couple times for the old bastard to make a showing, but….......Transcript by the way, but that doesn’t matter, his voice is shit anyway…........
Whit, from over here it looks like you guys could be on the rim of the vortex about now, yes.
We have followed your development in our own quiet NEW WORLD ORDER way here in OZ. It isn’t pretty and Rabbit feels the veneer of democracy is only that. We seem to be as hamstrung on real choices, Neither Labour nor Liberal offers any alternative in much the same way as Dems and Reps over there. Our Labour is more Socialist in origins and as such carries the liberal flag. They have absorbed a lot of the old communists as easily since they became a spent force. They are consequently not well enough organised and only the center, relatively conservative brand rises to prominance, no doubt something like that occurs there.
If this viewpoint is worth anything Rabbit would say things look like they are at critical mass stage. Something is going to have to give. Because of our similarities and obvious ties on the important lines of influence, rabbit is taking a keen personal interest in what is happening in the USA. Experince suggests we will follow quite closely in any developments down there. Rabbit can figure out for himself what exactly the likely effects will be to Oz from things down that way.
It seems highly likely that if things go certain ways then we are going to see some things descending upon you my Northern friends which we can only pray will not continue here.
If the Junta, does go for a final throw of the dice, anything is possible. They are poised for a complete martial takeover and all bets are off as to what laws and protections you have left to stop it. Things have not gotten to such a state with freedom and privacy in such a short time for no reason. Things seem to have reached crunch time on many fronts for this Junta. Either they know something we don’t which is why they are playing so hard and fast, or else they have got plans for you which is not all about freedom and democracy.
My opinion only, but it includes intuition as well as a lot of informed observation and consideration, this looks like the point where unless we get a miracle, the rest is a spiralling decline. Like the vortex in the center of a whirlpool going down the drain, you may be on the very rim.
Our wirlpool is just spinning a mirror image of course, and we too are getting closer.
One of the signs of a collapse over there is that our MSM is starting to be much more critical and objective about US policies and events surrounding the US WOT. Not a GLOBAL WAR ON TERROR. It is being seen even here as a US WAR ON TERROR..
They are distancing themselves maybe in a sort of moving to the fence attitude, which means they are no longer betting on the Bushies winning.
Still the scary bit is, the Bushies are MANIACS, and they still have the button….
A good fire can become a conflagration with some more fuel, here is some more fuel to warm Nat’s bottom.
“We have some very incriminating documents as well as eye-witnesses,” said Stanley Hilton, former top Republican and presidential advisor. “Bush personally ordered this event to happen in order to gain political advantage, to pursue a bogus political agenda on behalf of the neocons and their deluded thinking in the Middle East…I went to school with some of these neocons. At the University of Chicago, in the late 60s with Wolfowitz and Feith and several of the others and so I know these people personally. And we used to talk about this stuff all of the time. And I did my senior thesis on this very subject - how to turn the U.S. into a presidential dictatorship by manufacturing a bogus Pearl Harbor event. So, technically this has been in the planning at least 35 years.”
————————————————————————
“Why no photos or videos of the Pentagon plane? And there’s not a single credible frame of film or second of video of this,” observed a skeptical Nico Haupt. Cameras surround the fortress on the Potomac so hiding a jumbo jet is a stretch. But all footage from the Pentagon plane actually striking the building has been kept hidden.
Jumbo jets and gigantic doubts. Pilots-in-training flying 300 ton jumbo jets like fighter pilots, better than our own top guns? And magically leaving little wreckage behind. Indeed, you’ll see more wreckage from a Cessna crashing on your local golf course than you ever saw at the Pentagon.
But trust us, say the government spokesmen, and most Americans do.
Among his 500 questions about that day—questions any good detective or newsman would have asked, had any been available—Haupt noted many more puzzling anomalies. Now these anomalies do not, in themselves, prove anything more than complete and utter criminal incompetence, but they do begin to add up suspiciously.
“Why was metallic debris found 8 miles from the crash site of the plane that went down in Penn Secondary Debris Field)? They said it went straight down and left a small hole in the ground,” wondered Haupt. “If they found metallic debris from the plane 8 miles away it was either shot down or a bomb exploded in the plane. Why did they not let the media or any reporters take video or photos of the crash site? Why did all 19 names (of the hijackers) not appear on the passenger list 2 days after the hijacker list was released? Why do none of the names appear on the passenger lists UA and AA gave to CNN”
—————————————————————————
http://www.rense.com/general68/jumbo.htm
Gosh, Rabbit, it looks like this guy (Hilton) is guilty of promoting some of same strawman arguments you were so critical of Popular Mechanics for highlighting and then debunking. Seems as though your more level-headed conspiracy theorist rejects his approach:
http://tinyurl.com/86ltu
BTW, his “lawsuit” was rejected by the district court and subsequently by the Bush hating Ninth Circus, as I’m sure you’re aware.
The white supremacists were even taking up his cause, although some were skeptical. And I thought they were all such loyal Bush supporters.
Ahh….the things you learn on the Internet.
http://tinyurl.com/8gfcb
>
Sorry to interrupt. Had to get this posted to the “Reckoning with the God Squad” thread :
What God *Really* Told Bush
Apparently, it wasn’t just “invade Iraq and Afghanistan in my name.” A special report by Mark Morford, SF Gate Columnist
Scene: White House private residence, night, not long ago. President Bush present in his most favoritest guns ‘n’ bunnies PJs. Laura asleep, knocked out by a combination of too much Good Housekeeping and excessive hair-spray fumes. Suddenly, a burst of black smoke. A deep, resonant voice speaks:
“Psst! George! God here, taking a break from supervising the well-being of eight billion troubled souls along with infinite galaxies of unimaginable vastness to speak with you directly one more time because, well, you’re special, aren’t you, George? Yes you are! Yes you are! OK, stop giggling. I have more commands. Get off the damn hobbyhorse, George, and get a pen and a notepad. No, not a crayon. I don’t care if blue is your favori—George! Get a pen! OK? Good. Here we go: .... “
Read the rest at :
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/gate/archive/2005/10/12/notes101205.DTL&nl=fix
corrected link, I hope :
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgifile=/gate/archive/2005/10/12/notes101205.DTL
Sorry, still not correct. Very frustrating.
Go here :
http://www.sfgate.com/columnists/morford/
and click on the 10/12/2005 article entitled
What God *Really* Told Bush
Apparently, it wasn’t just “invade Iraq and Afghanistan in my name.”
Go to tinyurl.com, David, to shorten those links. I think the problem arises when the link is longer than the width of the entry box.
It occurs to me that the Iraqis, even after all they’ve been through, are more positive about their future than are liberals in America, Europe, and Canada.
http://tinyurl.com/8a9ap
Natalie once again shoots her as yet earthbound plane with another hole. (Rabbit does not like to think of Natalie shooting her feet off)
It should be noted that the debris of flight 93 is a very small piece if evidence and it is best seen in light of a lot of other evidence, most of which natalie is stedfastly refusing to acknowledge. Now since you wish to look at the facts of Debris from flight 93, Rabbit will be pleased to oblige. The PM article has been thoroughly dealt with above. It was also noted that another tactic of the PM article was to do what you are doing Nat, Dissemble over selected details and ignoring the main deatils which actually led to the conclusion they were trying to debunk.
Rabbit did not mention any engines or fans anmd his sources certainly did not give much prominance to the details you are mentioning. It is a fatal mistake to quote PMs quotes of Rense, as many of their quotes about Rense articles were not accurate. You compound your ignorance of what you are talking about over and over with your flawed comprehension of what Rense is. The site is simply a NEWS site. It links to NEWS, from other sources. Any reference to anything Rense says, is spurious. The site Rense.com, has a disclaimer printed on it which makes you lokk like a prime dimwit everytime you or anyone says Rense makes any claims. You quote what other sources say about something without ever even having established that the thing exists. No gullible girls around here, of course.
The following is a list of sources which all detail the ACTUAL debris and there was as you will see some at 8 miles distance. So all you have done with your last post is to prove once again that the official Theory is a LIE.
The engine and debris was found “before” the crash site Natalie. This cannot have happened at impact, because the momentum would have carried all debris which can indeed roll and blow away…........ in the direction of the momentum.
All the experts quoted by you were not commenting about the actual incident, but their words are being used in this new context, HOW DISHONEST and factually Bankrupt is that?
——————————————————————-
A second debris field was around Indian Lake about 3 miles from the crash scene. Some debris was in the lake and some was adjacent to the lake.
More debris from the plane was found in New Baltimore, some 8 miles away from the crash.
http://www.cnn.com/2001/US/09/13/penn.attack/
——————————————————————-
The Pennsylvania state police said debris from the crash has shown up about 8 miles away in a residential area where local media quoted some residents as seeing flaming debris from the sky.
But investigators were unwilling to say whether the presence of debris in two separate places evinced an explosion.
http://www.eastandard.net/eahome/story15092001004.htm
Finding the flight data recorder had been the focus of investigators as they widened their search area today following the discoveries of more debris, including what appeared to be human remains, miles from the point of impact at a reclaimed coal mine.
Residents and workers at businesses outside Shanksville, Somerset County, reported discovering clothing, books, papers and what appeared to be human remains. Some residents said they collected bags-full of items to be turned over to investigators. Others reported what appeared to be crash debris floating in Indian Lake, nearly six miles from the immediate crash scene.
http://post-gazette.com/headlines/20010913somersetp3.asp
————————————————————-
http://www.flight93crash.com/flight93_secondary_debris_field.html
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This is your guy Natalie, even your own witnesses working against your theory.
In a morning briefing, state Police Major Lyle Szupinka confirmed that debris from the plane had turned up in relatively far-flung sites, including the residential area of Indian Lake. Investigators appealed to any residents who had come across such debris, in the surrounding countryside or even in their yards, to contact them, emphasizing that even the smallest remnants could prove to be important clues.”
http://post-gazette.com/headlines/20010913somersetp3.asp
—————————————————-
Szupinka said searchers found one of the large engines from the aircraft “at a considerable distance from the crash site.”
“It appears to be the whole engine,” he added.
Szupinka said most of the remaining debris, scattered over a perimeter that stretches for several miles, are in pieces no bigger than a “briefcase.”
(archived at http://library.triblive.com - search whole engine from 9-10-01 to 9-20-01 or read it here)
———————————————————————-
Crowley related that 95 percent of the airplane had been recovered. The biggest piece of aircraft found was a fuselage skin measuring about 6 to 7 feet. The heaviest piece was from one of the engines and weighed 1,000 pounds.
http://www.dailyamerican.com/disaster.html#final
———————————————————————-
Natalie that is a lot of bits of Airplane which have gone a long way from the crash site. In fact there is no way the debirs field can be accounted for by anything but an onboard bomb or shoot down.
Nat we have at least 100 facts which have been presented so far which support Rabbit’s contention that the official story is a lie.
You have tried and failed to bring dicredit on two or three so far and have gained not a single point in favour of your conspiracy theory.
Try some of the big issues, try the Witnesses, those who actually saw something , whose testimony is valid because it is “Eyewitness” and it is verified with other witnesses. Who needs theories when there is people who saw what happened and have been saying so from day one?
Anyway, it is established that debris was found at least 8 miles from the crsh site of flight 93. No? OK Some more.
It’s important to recall that every description of the main crash site is that the airplane was OBLITERATED. Very small debris was spread over a couple hundred yards. This is exactly what you’d expect to see when an Airliner impacts nearly vertically as Flight 93 did. Nothing survived this impact… yet a 1000lb fan was found elsewhere. It fell off before impact, just like Flight 587’s engine that was found basically intact did.
John Fleegle, an Indian Lake Marina employee, said FBI agents were skeptical of his reports about debris in the lake [2.5 miles away from main crash site]
... said he climbed on the roof of an abandoned cabin and tossed down a burning seat cushion that had landed there. (Archived at http://library.triblive.com - search burning seat cushion from 9-10-01 to 9-20-01 or read it here. It’s unclear exactly how far this seat cushion is from the primary crater.)
Pennsylvania state police officials said on Thursday debris from the plane had been found up to 8 miles (13 km) away in a residential community where local media have quoted residents as speaking of a second plane in the area and burning debris falling from the sky. http://investor.cnet.com/investor/news/newsitem/0-9900-1028-7147291-0.html
Actually the whole official theory always had the feel of a Warner Brothers Production from the start.
Rabbit knows you are going to try and prove that it wasn’t metal found 8-miles away because there are a number of reports of the same things which differ slightly as is normal in the media. In the end there is no way paper or metal or body parts, could have travelled even a few miles in the times allowed. You see most of the debris from the flight was seen within a minute or so of the plane flying over. Notice one of the reports includes a second plane, sure enough it is the earliest sighting I think.
http://www.geocities.com/killtown/flight93.html
Natalie, the Rabbit is a liitle bored and so has decided to crush your last post like a Grape.
Theory 1 - It blew there (The NTSB/FBI Story).
Comment: Wind speed that day was 9 knots (or 10.4 MPH). Video from that morning shows a very light breeze.
The NTSB theory is that a lot of lightweight paper-like material survived the crash fireball and escaped the 35 foot deep, wet mud crash site and floated at 10 mph 2 - 8 miles over more wet, muddy fields. And how did clothing, books and large engine parts blow there again? And is there stuff 2 to 8 miles away at the Pentagon crash? Or another crash you can think of? Oh yea, at Lockerbie and Flight 800 there was (both had in-air explosions).
Remember, the debris is NOT continuous. They didn’t even have a clue the secondary debris existed until phone calls from residents brought skeptical investigators looking. If this debris was heavier than feathers it would not have floated from an explosion the height of 600 feet to 11,000+ feet sideways. Even if it could, there would have been a continuous trail back to the crash with the heavier items falling first. Remember, all the debris at the crash crater bounced South and Southwest. The secondary debris is East in the direction of, and beyond, Indian Lake.
Indian Lake is where witnesses heard the airliner fly over, and saw debris falling from the sky moments after the crash. If the debris floated from the crash site, it would have taken 10-15 minutes at 10 mph to get there.
Flight 427 is another airliner that crashed intact and ALSO had debris found 2.5 miles away. We can try to compare it’s debris field with that of Flight 93. From the 427 report in 1999:
Several lightweight items (for example, pieces of interior insulation and a passenger business card) were discovered as far as 2
Are you folks copying the address bar for the link?
Then pasting it on the comment window?
Then reverse the process to use the link from site? Sincerely Rabbit has no problems either way, most of the time.
Rabbit is seeking comments from anybody who can find anything WHATSOEVER, which challenges WTC Janitor Rodriguez’ story. Several searches have yielded NOTHING. Can it really be true that they have not mounted any sort of defence to his story? God help him and the other witnesses because they surely don’t intend to allow this to get to court. They must be appalled at the thought of Rodriguez testifying in open court.
Monk
Pay attention.
Rabbit went to your SFGate site. Found the article and merely copy shrtcut off the link to the page. Here it is pasted:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2005/10/12/notes101205.DTL
—————————————————————-
This one is copied from the Address bar after opening the link from the main page, you will see it is the same:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/gate/archive/2005/10/12/notes101205.DTL
————————————————————————
Copy and paste either of those addresses as they are and they will take you to the place.
Natalie probably won’t be able to learn so much so quickly, we are still working on comprehension of Gravity in her case, but she might want to see if this simple and typically direct Rabbit route doesn’t have something to say for it.
Rabbit is becoming bored by the whole “I can’t get the thing to work” gig. Rabbit as a technician tells you all to stop being silly, figure out what makes the thing work and do that…...................................Stern look more than an actual foot Stamp!.......................^^.............................
Rabbit
Here is the problem. I tried to use both links you posted above. They both brought me to :
SF Gate Item Not Found
The article or page you requested was not found. If this link was sent to you via e-mail or posted on another website, it was probably incorrectly formatted.
If the link that gave you the error appeared on one of SF Gate’s pages, please mail us and let us know at webmaster@sfgate.com.
Here is why.
Look at this portion of your cut & paste from above :
/gate/archive e/2005/10/12
See the space between archive and e. It should not be there. Neither should the e after the space that shouldn’t be there.
As Natalie said might be happening. It seems that when a continuous stream of letters, numbers and /?= that make up a link are longer than the width of the box, the box that I am typing into right now, the electrons get confused and add arbitrary spaces and occasionally duplicate another character.
So there !! Gremlin electrons indeed.
Natalie, Thanks for pointing out tinyurl.com.
So here is the the SF Gate - Morford article on a tiny, new and improved url.
http://tinyurl.com/79fhe
Easy.
‘And based upon what evidence, Natalie, would you presume to speak for the Iraqi people.
I for one think that we should let THEM decide whether they want to be occupied by American military forces or not. Do you really think they are all happy about being cluster-bombed and having the infastructure on their country destroyed and possibly 100s of thousands of innocent civilians killed, or incarcerated and abused. Do you think our government would abide by the will of the Iraqi people? Everything I’ve read about actual legitimate attempts to assess overall Iraqi opinion on this matter indicates they want the occuppying forces OUT. But perhaps you know best.
Ah ha sorry I see now. Yes it did happen then as you say. Rabbit will also look to tiny.urls, at least for long ones, especially as Nat suggested them.
Whit
Nat would tell you that the only way to know if someone will welcome you with love and flowers when you bomb them, is to bomb them.
Then if that didn’t work make a movie with some actors handing over some flowers and making a speech.
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