Muzzled Voices

“ But during several of their court hearings, VitW repeatedly asked why humanitarian organizations were prosecuted while companies that broke sanctions for profit were not fined or penalized. “

Corporate profits good. Humanitarian efforts baaad.

I am shocked. Not.

“ A policy that leads to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of children is criminal, “

Let’s see what Madeline Albright says : “I think this is a very hard choice, but the price — we think the price is worth it.”

Former U.N. Ambassador Madeline Albright, responding to reporter Lesley Stahl as to whether the over half a million Iraqi children killed by the UN sanctions against Iraq were “worth it.” CBS May 11, 1996

“Despite the risk of up to 12 years in prison, Kelly says that VitW will not pay “one penny or dime” of the civil penalty in a “conscientious objection to the utterly ruthless policies of war criminals in power.”

War criminals in power. Maybe one day the war criminals will be doing the time in jail rather than the people trying to help the innocent victims.

One day .. maybe tomorrow.

It is always easy to recognise that special Compassion, so unique to American Democracy.

It is certainly a relief to see that these supporters of a Saddam Hussein and his Terrorist Nation have been brought to justice.

It is partly because of people like VitW the USA had to attack Iraq in the first place, the traitors.

....AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH! 

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!

and you can quote that..^^..

“Maybe one day the war criminals will be doing the time in jail rather than the people trying to help the innocent victims.”

Don’t hold your breath.

This presupposes they would go quietly.

Now what in all the actions of this Insane Junta has led you to believe they would ever choose the lesser of two evils, when given a choice?

Mr Cheney Sir would you please give us the suitcase and the keys sir, and then go to prison for a long time..

George, give the nice man the button, give the man the button George and come down from that tree, don’t touch that bottle, please George give up the button and go into the cage.

How exactly does anyone propose to catch these Monsters? It’s all very well to decide the village is going to exterminate the Monster, but how?

I wanna know who’s next

Who’s next to be busted? or Who’s next to be “LIBERATED”?

Gotta love that “freedom.”

Thanks feds, you’re all about the freedom for Americans.  I mean Iraqis. I mean corporate shareholders.  That’s it.

Free the shareholders and criminal CEO’s! 

May Kenneth Lay never be sent to prison for stealing billions.  Now that’s “freedom.”

Gotta love when shrub says “freedom” through that plastic sneer of his.

A few more right wing nutjob judges and Bush can finally pull the flush handle on America.

Martial law is freedom.  Police state is security.
Hate is love.

Hey—everyone else babbles incessantly here…

Isn’t babbling what one does when the muzzle is off?

When the muzzle comes off we can bite.

If something needs muzzling, you might as well lock it up or kill it.

Only insane and dangerous creatures should ever need muzzling of course.

Muddled Thinking Produces Muddled History Produces Lying Liberal Losers

To understand a given situation, you must understand the history and context of the situation.  Up to this point, every single comment on this thread has supported the poor, abused VitW and their efforts to violate United States law.  Such justification as is offered by the various posters for their comments relies on selective use of historical realities and grossly leftist ideological interpretations of the closely-culled data.

So, David says:

>> War criminals in power. Maybe one day the war criminals will be doing the time in jail rather than the people trying to help the innocent victims.  <<

Eidolon Lagomorph repeats the above quote from David, and helpfully identifies President Bush and VP Cheney as the criminals under discussion, with the added implication that President Bush is insane, or something.  But David is Canadian, and Lagomorph is Oz, and perhaps they do not have democracy and the rule of law in those places.  In a democracy, criminality is determined in a court, not by a leftist totalitarian regime, as in the Soviet Union, and certainly not by a bunch of leftist ideologues on a leftist blog.  Now President Clinton was found guilty of perjury, but he is the only sitting American President who has ever been determined to be a criminal.  So allegations of criminality are grossly inappropriate in this circumstance.

Similarly, David and Lagomorph misreport the article’s take on the criminality of corporations.  VitW, in their legal defense, specifically addressed “companies that broke (UN) sanctions for profit”.  David extends the meaning of VitW’s statement to include corporate profits in general:

>> Corporate profits good. Humanitarian efforts baaad.  (para) I am shocked. Not.  <<

And Lagomorph, ever helpful, specifically and sarcastically states:

>> May Kenneth Lay never be sent to prison for stealing billions.  Now that’s “freedom.” <<

In fact, in a democracy, real criminal behavior regularly and consistently results in real criminal penalties, according to the rule of law.  Enron executives Fastow and Boyle have been convicted, and are serving sentences, as are four Merrill-Lynch executives that were involved with the Enron fraud.  More criminal prosecutions are on schedule in the Enron case including Lay and Skilling.  So neither your misreading of the article nor your failure to acknowledge the progress in prosecuting criminal behavior are appropriate.

Criminal or not, Lagomorph wants to know how to deal with “these Monsters”:

>> How exactly does anyone propose to catch these Monsters? It’s all very well to decide the village is going to exterminate the Monster, but how?  <<

That’s simple.  This is a democracy; you vote them out of office.

(Cont.)

And then David dredges up this piece of historical crap:

>> A policy that leads to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of children is criminal.  (para) Let’s see what Madeline Albright says : “I think this is a very hard choice, but the price — we think the price is worth it.” <<

I certainly need not comment on anything that Mad Albright ever said or did, at least in this context, but here we see the leftist repetition of blatant dishonesty and hypocrisy.  The “deaths of hundreds of thousands of children” has never been ascertained, and such deaths that occurred are certainly the result of Saddam’s withholding food and medicine from the Iraqi people, and spending the money on golden palaces and illegal weapons.  This is the lesson of the UN Oil-for-Food bribery-extortion-kickback scandal.

One of the enduring myths of the political situation in Iraq is the purported half-million dead babies due to the sanctions against Iraq. One-half million is a nice round figure, but how did it become wedged into left-wing consciousness? Why not one and one-half million, the figure that Saddam claimed?

The UN Food and Agricultural Organization (FAO) stated the original figure as 567,000 in a 1995 letter to the Lancet, the British medical journal. The news media picked up on the story, and it became locked in the consciousness of those who opposed the sanctions for whatever reason, notably Saddam and OBL and various left-wing political entities. But Lancet subsequently ran an evaluation of the FAO data and in 1996 announced that the FAO figures were overstated by a large margin. Left-wing ideologues never let facts stand in the way of a good story, so the revised figures have been ignored for all these years. Other studies came up with different estimates, none as high as one-half million.  Kurdish child mortality actually fell during the sanctions, but then Saddam was not in charge of food and medicine in Kurdistan; the Kurd’s share of the oil revenues went directly to the Kurds.

For a cold, hard look at the numbers, try >> http://www.alternet.org/story/11933/ <<

For a look at what it really meant to the Iraqi people,

>> http://observer.guardian.co.uk/worldview/story/0,11581,742303,00.html <<

I have long since given up ever seeing accuracy from a Liberal source, much less fairness.  But you people are a grand source of amusement.

Hello Scorp

Glad you find me amusing because the feeling is mutual.

Scorpy as always putting words in other peoples mouths and attacking them thus..

“And Lagomorph, ever helpful, specifically and sarcastically states:

>> May Kenneth Lay never be sent to prison for stealing billions.  Now that’s “freedom.” <<

...Crap, the Rabbit never said any such thing. Every thread you have ever been on you have made such spurious claims and everytime you are told the same thing. I said no such thing........CLOWN.!  Why don’t you read other peoples posts before you run off at the mouth like a weak western assh*le after a strong curry.

As ever Scorpy spends most of his argument in blowing his own limbs off.

By refferring to democracies and court cases a question is going begging.  democracies are not normally decided in court cases as it happens. It is particulary undemocratic when the losing party uses a crroked Court to appoint itself the government. Now what was Scorpy saying about democracies?  David and Rabbit do come from Canada and Oz as you have been so uncommonly astute as to have noticed. We have democracies, to the extent that our governments were elected by people in what seemed to most of us to have been a fair and honest election, like the result or no.

It is with no less sadness than it is with amusement that Rabbit points out that this is not a claim to which you aspire.

Rabbit knows not how many children died as a result of sanctions, Scorpy. The fact remains that many children died from want of items being withheld in sanctions which were actually hypocritical in retrospect. That FACT was recorded on the ground by independant bodies, including American organisations.  What you conveniently forget, from day to day it would seem, is that there has been an opposition to you people all along, we did not just come down in the last rain strom.

IDIOT.. We were telling the truth about it all and predicting the current situation precisely before you ever even heard the name Falluja for the first time.  Therefore we have been watching and recording anmd collecting the evidence.  You poor poor deluded soul. You are so convinced that AMERIKA is going to stand forever. You are so completely secure in the knowledge that America is right always and everybody just wants to be like you.  I have heard it said so often and have never before replied to the following.

The idea Everybody, or at least all Iranians, or Iraqis or whoever you are justifying attacking today, want nothing more than to come and live in America.  Never had I had the heart to point this out before but finallt Rabbit feels obliged to set the record straight.

There are oddly enough still some people, mostly from very underprivelaged backgrounds who seek a permanent home in the USA. This is actually true of all developed countries, you should see the waiting list to get into Australia or Denmark.  That does not prove you are the best place in the world, just that somebody percieves they might have a better chance there than whereever they are.

Australia and Denmark, and Germany and many many other countries actually are very choosy about who they allow in, they can afford to be. They take skills and money by preference and usually get it.  What is the quality of immigrants to the USA Scorpy?  What might this tell you about who considers what you have is better than theirs?

Scorpy the truth is actually that Australia is about the most popular destination country for most, and several other countries are well ahead of the USA. That opinion has been partly formed afetr travelling in Asia and Europe for Seven years, by the way.

Those who most want to move to the USA are doing so, in droves across the border as we speak, it just so happens.

We have discussed the Economy and Rabbit will just re-post a little something along these lines especially for Scorpy.

Have a look at these two recent “speculative” articles on US economy. If you are any sort of businessman, as I think you mentioned once, it will not be necessary to point out that speculation is what economic forecasting is all about, so there is no points to be gained by pointing out that is is merely speculative. The Facts as presented in the articles and how they are interpreted is what counts.

Pop Goes the Real Estate Bubble. Some are still saying it is not a Bubble. Ha!

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20051024/real_estate_bubble

Down, down, down goes the dollar. Up Up and away goes the gold.  Have we got lots of Gold stashed away? No we have not.  We have got lots of Dollars though. Yes, so has everybody, and guess what? We don’t want them anymore, you are going to have lots more of those dollars soon, as people realise that the Fiat currencies are on the brink of returning to their true value.  Nothing.

http://www.321gold.com/editorials/russell/russell101005.html

Remember that Venezuala just got out of all their Dollar reserves and turned them to Euro’s. In European Banks, too. Not that Chavez doesn’t trust American Banks or anything.

Now how much imagination does it take to see other BIG holders of Dollars and soon to be useless US bonds, getting rid of these as quietly and as fast as possible.

You are of course one of those hubris filled Americans who thinks the world would not risk the damage to it’s economy which will also result from a US dollar collapse. You so underestimate other people you would never understand.  You have left people with little option. You can pretend you are taking the world over for it’s own good, but the world didn’t ask you to, and we have decided we’d rather survive global economic collapse rather than a global War with maniacs like the USA and Israel involved.

The rest of the world just decided the USA is not going to retain control of the internet.......What’s going on, Scorpy, they are not towing the line....... Scorpy the world just “CONFISCATED” the internet from the USA. Uncle Sam is not happy, he made an angry face but the world said, give, and Sammy must give.

http://technology.guardian.co.uk/weekly/story/0,16376,1585288,00.html

What this means is that you don’t call all the shots anymore, and that is a change.

Just subtle hints here Scorpy but those who see with open eyes can see it clear as day.

Eidolon Lagomorph -

You got me, Lagomorph.  It was John that had the Ken Lay quote, not you.  My apologies. 

Other than that, you have not answered a single one of my points on this thread; instead you rush off in other directions unrelated to the original article.

The rest of your posts are your usual nonsense.  Economically, you keep confusing cause and effect.  The USA is the world’s strongest economy because strong policies create strong results.  That does not mean we are perfect, and it does not mean we are not subject to outside shocks, such as natural disasters.  It does mean that we can rebuild, and that we can minimize damages when something happens.  The biggest damages the American economy has sustained in the last thirty years were self-inflicted; the Carter Catastrophe and the Bubba Bubble.

On several occasions, you have spoken highly of Venezuela’s actions.  Venezuela is a leftist totalitarian state, meaning that it can never realize its economic and political potential; totalitarian controls necessarily result and inefficiency and corruption, as in the defunct Soviet Union.  The strengths of Venezuela are, first, the talents and capabilities of her people, and secondly, her natural resources, primarily oil.  But Venezuela’s totalitarian government is destroying the human capital, as in its policy of firing skilled oil workers and managers, and replacing them with political hacks.  Venezuela’s polity is in major disarray, with riots, election fraud, and wasteful spending on arms and on propping up leftist regimes and movements: Cuba, Nicaragua, Columbian rebels.  Venezuela’s economy is crashing with the exception of the oil sector.  So, Venezuela has money, thanks to high oil prices, which serve to conceal the inefficiency and corruption.  How long do you suppose high oil prices will last?  Forever?  When the price of oil goes down, and the economy is in tatters, and the money has all been spent, and the most capable people have fled, whither Venezuela?  Totalitarians have been falling regularly for the last sixty years.  Chavez will fall.  And who is at fault?  The USA?  Probably, according to you.

And what is it that you find so attractive about the Euro?  The Old Europe economies are in dreadful shape, and have been for fifteen years.  The only prop under the Euro now is foreign sales, primarily to the USA.  How stable is this situation?  Not very.  And while the USA has repeatedly demonstrated its ability to rebuild its economy when necessary, Old Europe has no such capability as long as it pursues socialist policies.

>> It is particulary (sic) undemocratic when the losing party uses a crroked (sic) Court to appoint itself the government (sic).  <<

Sic, sic, sic.  Lagomorph, this is a peculiar and totally incoherent statement, even by your standards.  What is it that you are trying to say?  Can I dare hope that you have fallen for Michael Moron’s leftist nonsense, and actually think that USA courts are corrupt, and that the 2000 and 2004 elections were not valid?  If so, you have rendered yourself totally inconsequential, as well as unlearned and unperceptive.  Enjoy.

Most of your drivel is predictable Scorpy.

Your understanding of Venezuala is on a par with your usual standards of comprehension of anything outside your own immediate experience. Your experience of Venezuala is probably about the same as Rabbit’s but Rabbit’s opinion is based upon an open minded evaluation of what those who actually “DO KNOW” say about it.  A selection for your edification. Imperfect a story as it will tell, the evidence is in the eating. Venezuala is succeeding in ways that the USA still dreams about, but can only dream for now......................

The following shows not only that this is a healthy democracy in “PRACTICE” but that Chavez is undisputably a popular leader.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venezuelan_recall_referendum,_2004

“The line has been put out that he’s a dictator. George W Bush was elected by computer in Florida, but the “dictator” is Hugo Chavez, elected by 70% of the popular vote — and no one questions the validity of that election. This is a popularly elected president with a popularly elected congress, and yet they keep talking about “the dictator”.

http://www.think-twice.org.uk/2002/palast/venezuela.html
---------------------------------------

This is typical of the news, we in the wider world get SCORPY, gobble it up my little Turkey.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0409/S00275.htm
-------------------------------------------

more by Palast

http://www.energybulletin.net/1615.html
--------------------------------------

Lucky Dip............

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1763
-------------------------------------

Now when the Scorpy has waddled through the above references, which are short to the point and show his pompous posturing about Venezuala to be the Turkey Dance it is.  Gobble… Gobble… Gobble.....................................

What makes Scorpy now adopt the new posture about Rabbit’s opinions? When did Rabbit say he found anything attractive about the Euro.

Pay close attention to this statement, because it is the first opinion I have offerred about the Euro or about the EU.

Rabbit was living peacefully in Scandinavia, Danmark as it happens when the EU was still in it’s earlier stages. The Euro was little more than an idea, at the time, the whole thing was in getting certain “key” nations to sign on the dotted line.

Rabbit was one of the minority who stood up and vociferously challenged the EU when it was put to the Danish population in a referendum in 1992 where we won by a narrow margin, only to be cheated by the government who pulled a stunt. Then the Danes, to whom Rabbit is joined by marriage, said no to the Euro in 2000. Facts are facts whether we like them or not, another little hint to help you Scorpy.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_947000/947798.stm

-------------------------------------
Rabbit does not sing the praises of the Euro., Rabbit merely observes that it is in conflict with the Dollar, and as such is actually a massive weapon against the USA. The biggest WMD there is maybe.  Scorpy has a strangely black and white view. The colours are assigned arbitrarily as well it would seem. Scorpy has it never occurred to you that none of the major players on the world scene have yours or my interests at heart?  It is certainly foremost in the mind of Rabbit and other sensible beings around the place.

There are no OLD EUROPEAN economies. That is the point of the EU, you silly Turkey. It is a NEW economy.

The prat you posted about what props up the Euro is just insane guessing by yourself, you feeble fencer.  As for what Props up” the American Dollar, what the hell do you think makes the American economy work. Do you actually believe that you are a big industrial manufacturing nation? Do you actually believe that there is some sort of gross export of anything from the USA except little green pieces of paper?

Europe has a population base more thanm twice the USA and it is a much more highly educated and sophisticated group of people on average. One of the positive effects which is expected to come of EU mebership is a raising of standards in areas like education and health care among member nations who are lagging.

Scorpy instead of going (Sic) (sic) (sic) like a Turkey, do as Rabbit does with yours and others’ spelling errors, ignore them or graciously correct them upon quoting. It would not be taken amiss. But to break up a slightly garbled sentence this way is petty, and it was no more incoherant than that you got the idea in one.

The FACT is being established in short order, in court as to what is known widely as a fact, and you got it in one.  Denial will be no defence, oh ignorant Gobbler.

For now it is enough to settle for an acceptance that the result was so bloody close it needed a court case toi settle it, and that never did make the stink go further than investigations ongoing. The important point is not the spelling or the piddly details, the point was being made that you do not have a democracy to hold up as an example to a nation with 70% support for it’s president.  EG: Venezuala. 

Oh and Rabbit was unaware that Michael Moron was saying the elections were fraud as well as most of the rest of us.  But if you say so Scorpy.  Meanwhile these are some of the others who also think so.

http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0310/S00211.htm

http://www.legitgov.org/9_1_1_oddities.html

http://www.crisispapers.org/topics/election-fraud.htm

http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2005/1065

Even a Wikipedia reference for you Scorpy,....Gobble Gobble.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_U.S._Election_controversies_and_irregularities

...........Gobble Gobble Gobble..............

Since we are on the subject Rabbit will expound a little more on his experience of the European economy, via an admittedly privelaged nation, Danmark. Generalisations about Europeans are doomed to failure, even more readily than generalisations about Americans or any group of people, the bigger the group.  Nevertheless, a couple of things stand out.

Europeans save money. They really do save money for a rainy day. In fact they work efficiently due to technology and attitude and they have great working conditions and hours, 35 hour week was/is the goal, and it was close even when Rabbit lived there.  There is a much better standard of health care and social service generally which ensures care of the elderly and the weak. There are extremes of behaviour, but the worst crimes are less common there than the USA. These people have usually got less distance to travel, and get by with alternative forms of transport more often than Americans or Oz. 

This is why they have not got two cars per family, and why they can afford to maintain those cars at the high standards which are required. They have had higher but more stable Energy prices, because they too are being gouged.

The important point is that they actually have a LOT of wealth in the hands of private people. An already HUGE and burgeoning economy which is already a bigger energy user than the USA, and the whole circus is almost as certain to get even better as the US economy is certain to get worse.

Or another government with about 65% of the popular vote......................IRAN....Another democratic government by the usual definition of the word. Our definition, Scorpy, not the definition of a fascist.  Our definition is “elected by majority in a transparent election”.

15 year olds can vote in Iran............... Scorpy

Oh Scorpy..."The USA is the world’s strongest economy because strong policies create strong results.  That does not mean we are perfect, and it does not mean we are not subject to outside shocks, such as natural disasters.  It does mean that we can rebuild, and that we can minimize damages when something happens.  The biggest damages the American economy has sustained in the last thirty years were self-inflicted; the Carter Catastrophe and the Bubba Bubble.”

You forgot a few “strong policies” such as deregulation of the savings and loan industry under Ronny Reagan that resulted in a huge scandal that cost the taxpayers billions. You forgot about the deregulation of the banking industry that a Republican Congress and Clinton agreed would be good policy, but resulted in Wall Street crimes. You forgot about both political parties praying to the Gods of American corporate power that resulted in a corporate crime wave of unprecedent sums of money.

Actually you didn’t forget the last two, but just blamed Clinton rather than include the Republican Congress writing the legislation or rather taking the legislation written for them by American corporations to rubber stamp.

I’m not sure what the Carter catastrophe you’re refering to. Maybe the energy crisis launched by Saudi Arabia and OPEC. Funny how things go ‘round. Just the other day your Bush idol told us that we need to conserve energy, only drive our cars when necessary as he hypocritically flew around on Air Force One. Sure reminds me of Carter wearing sweaters in the White House. Bush also told us he was going to direct the White House to conserve energy, but I’m sure that was only lip service.

So Bush is now channeling Carter, bet you love that.

Eidolon Lagomorph -

Don’t get your knickers in a knot, Lagomorph.  I am not given to commenting on spelling and typos, but you do have an obligation to be coherent.  The sentence I quoted was incomprehensible.  You do not have very good reasoning powers to start with, and mangling your syntax and spelling, along with your egocentric manner of expression, certainly does not promote clarity in discussion. 

>> Do you actually believe that you are a big industrial manufacturing nation?  <<

No, of course not.  Don’t be ridiculous.  Why would the USA want to be a “big industrial manufacturing nation” in this day and age?  We have other countries that are more than happy to do our manufacturing for us, more cheaply than we can do it ourselves.  Our competitive advantage is in high tech, automation, financial services, medical, pharmaceutical, entertainment, stuff like that.  We have among the highest per cap incomes in the world doing the things we do best; why in the hell would we want to go back to “industrial manufacturing”?  Are you crazy?

Your economic ignorance is quite astonishing, Lagomorph.  You keep commenting/complaining about the American dollar, the Euro, savings, wealth, and you know nothing of which you speak:

>> There are no OLD EUROPEAN economies.  <<

Well, yes, there are.  France.  Germany.  Belgium.  They have had double digit unemployment for fifteen years.  They have had essentially no growth during this period.  From the World Fact Book, these three countries had 7.7 million unemployed in 2004.  If even half of them had been employed, extrapolated out for fifteen years that is over 57 million man-years of labor.  Think how many things could have been accomplished with 57 million man-years of labor: autos, houses, airplanes, poetry, music, medical breakthroughs.  But instead of producing things for the rest of us, all these people were on the dole, consuming what others produced.  That is a crime.  Even worse, it is a mistake.

>> Since the 1970s, America has created some 57 million new jobs, compared to just 4 million in Europe (with most of those in government). For the last quarter century, the United States has enjoyed consistently higher rates of economic growth and productivity than European countries, and the gap has been widening. The United States is now at the forefront in many critical global industries, particularly finance, technology, and entertainment.  <<

>> http://www.taemag.com/issues/articleid.18720/article_detail.asp <<

Every time you open your mouth, Lagomorph, you increase the sum total of human ignorance.  Are you unemployed, by any chance?

IDIOT SCORPY, the sentence was sufficiently comprehensible that you got the meaninmg first time.  You proved it you dunce. Incomprehensible would mean you didn’t get it.  You are a dingbat.

Not for the first time Rabbit points out that he is not given to being greatly disturbed by you as a rule, and he certainly has never displayed the characteristic hysteria which accompanies Scorpy’s weird blatherings. So get over your one line wonder, nobody else is clapping.

The fool just blew himself out of the water as usual. The point that you make is also mine, dummy, you do indeed have to pay “Others” for manufacturing, and all those other things you mention you dummy, are also bought from overseas. You are stupid enough to assume American companies manufacture anything in the USA. Fewer and fewer do you dunce because it is as you say CHEAPER to do so elsewhere. Even though you have long since lost a union movement, conditions for american workers is poor by world standards. Rabbit has qualifications in Occupational Health and Safety and knows the US system is a poor example at least.

Your dimwitted hysteria shows through whenever you demonstrate you have read only some of any posts you reply to.  Rabbit has mentioned his occupation on enough occasions that most should know Rabbit owns a small Polyethylene Kayak factory.

Have never been unemployed except by choice, Scorpy.

Now what was that about ignorance?

The thing is since you the ordinary American have to by all these imported goods, you have only Dollars to buy them with , and the dollar has been supported for a long time by an artificial situation which is now in the throes of collapse.  You are not one to talk about reasoning Scorpy you are quite famous for your own tortured and contradictory reasoning, and you are the only one making your ridiculous claims about Rabbit’s incomprehensibility. The small mistakes here and there are left specifically for the amusement of Trolls as has been pointed out before too. Trolls like to play with stupid things like Grammer, syntax and spelling, if they believe they have any clues of these themselves. They are mere dissembling tricks.

Your guessing about Economics is still prevalent.  You are not comparing apples with apples by any shot and most if not all your figures are pure guesswork.

Germany my little man underwent a Re-unification about that number of years ago, and the German Economy which is quite stable like most European economies, for all the reasons i have already given, had to absorb the former East Germany. The economic ramifications of that are manyfold and quite out of your league to comprehend, you have yet to grasp the notion of fiat currencies and how history treats them. You are as has been observed before, by many a dunce. You cut and paste the wrods of others who blather better than you, to make it sound like you know something, but the follow-up posts show you could never have written the first one.

One thing which would never have ocurred to you, is that the countries you name have a very generous unemployment system. It is very easy for people to bludge in Europe and plenty do. Unemployment could be double that in the US and still be low as it happens. The simple fact is that if you are unemployed in the USA, you starve.

Here is an actual intelligent treatment of the issue, in contrast to your rubbish.

http://www.res.org.uk/society/mediabriefings/pdfs/2005/jan05/nickell.asp

You sure do try to make your three clues stretch to a lot of imaginings Scorpy.

AGAIN Rabbit must point out that Scorpy makes up a lot of things about what Rabbit says. Rabbit has not supported European anything, merely pointed out what is. Scorpy relies on ad hock reasoning, opinions unsuported by actual facts, gleaned from others. Whoever in fact says what he wants to hear.

The fact of unemployment is not actually an indication of a strong or weak economy on its own Scorpy. The only thing which we are talking about is the future and why Scorpy has to keep delving into the past to find facts which do not actually have any bearing on the matter we are discussing is beyond Rabbit.

The thing we are talking about MIDGET MIND, is that the European economy is poised to displace the US economy to such an extent that the US economy is going to lose it’s artificial dominane by virtue of a unique situation wherby it’s fiat currency has been able to act as a defacto commodity almost. The US economy only dominates by virtue of the NUMBERS of DOLLARS. What is the result as those dollars decline in value? Thjey buy less and less of imported goods, they will only be able to be used to buy American goods. Problem, what are American goods?  You already pointed out you have no manufacturing sector to speak of and many other itmes, notably ENERGY are imported.

Your economy is primarily service based. It is highly technical in your mind only sunshine, all the best technology has been imported the rest comes from elsewhere than the USA.

You will be left with more than enough Lawyers and Waiters and Janitors to go around, but what will you eat? What will you do for transport and so on.................

More grist for the mill.

http://www.newswithviews.com/Devvy/kidd129.htm

Yoh Scorp

Lets back up a bit. -
Posted by scorp on October 8, 2005 at 11:25 PM

Quote the Scorp
“I certainly need not comment on anything that Mad Albright ever said or did, at least in this context, but here we see the leftist repetition of blatant dishonesty and hypocrisy…..Blah Blah Blah”

then

Quote from the link the Scorp gave:
http://www.alternet.org/story/11933

“The Lancet, the journal of the British Medical Society, asserting that sanctions were responsible for the deaths of 567,000 Iraqi children. The New York Times picked up the story and declared “Iraq Sanctions Kill Children.” CBS followed up with a segment on 60 Minutes that repeated the numbers and depicted sanctions as a murderous assault on children. This was the program in which UN ambassador (and later Secretary of State) Madeleine Albright, when asked about these numbers, coldly stated, “The price is worth it.”

And latter:

“The Lancet. Garfield, an expert on the public-health impact of sanctions, conducted a comparative analysis of the more than two dozen major studies that have analyzed malnutrition and mortality figures in Iraq during the past decade. He estimated the most likely number of excess deaths among children under five years of age from 1990 through March 1998 to be 227,000. Garfield’s analysis showed child mortality rates double those of the previous decade.”

So it was only a quarter million instead of a half million.  I guess that makes it all right then huh Scorp?

The primary issue here Scorp is not the numbers, as terrible as they may be.

The primary issue is Albright’s morally Void, ANSWER !
She answered to the earlier 567,000, estimate, and she makes it plain that, that is a price the American Government is willing to pay to give Hussein a head ache!

It graphically displays the absolute “moral bankruptcy” of those in power.
The word “Evil” comes to mind.

No matter how you cook it Scorp!……
The miserable deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children, is just A OKAY with the American Corporate driven government.

> If that is what it will cost to achieve their ends – NO PROBLEM <

I fear things have not improved with the present administration.
In fact I feel it safe to say they have worsened.

I am curious to know what inspires you to even try and defend such a ghastly, reprehensible and indefensible statement.

What “thing” is it that you would serve so well, as to sully yourself thus?
I am curious to know.

They vividly EXPOSE themselves and their hideous diseased ideology, with this statement,and you refuse to see it. 

It stands as a rock before you and you WILL not see it!
You actually must WILL not to perceive it.

I fear you are a “True Believer” Scorp,
One who when presented facts or evidence that would call his beliefs into question, simply ignores those facts and evidence, and prays a little harder.  That seems to be the way of the present Administration also, so you have lots of company.

I would say however, That is one Hell of a way to run a shoe store, let alone a country!

Hooray for Eadora.  Rabbit is always happy to see Eadora..  Wack that troll Eadora, he has had a lot but is still not softening up a bit.

Has Eadaora seen the Natalie Vampire has been lured from her radioactive cave?  She is a very odd one that NAT.

Be well Eadora........................................^^..................

Eadora -

I had three simple points in my post about the dead babies, clearly stated:

1) Liberals were lying, as is their wont, about the number of dead babies.

2) The babies are dead because Saddam withheld food and medicine in order to buy golden palaces and illegal weapons for himself.

3) Mad Albright was a particularly dim bulb in a stupid and corrupt administration.  That is why there is no need to comment on her or what she said. 

>> So it was only a quarter million instead of a half million.  I guess that makes it all right then huh Scorp?  <<

Ummm, well, no.  It is not all right.  That is why we pulled Saddam out of the used septic tank, smelling like shit and looking like shit.  And that is why Mr. Saddam is going to hang.  I realize that hanging constitutes a grave injustice, but hanging is the worst that can be done to him under Iraqi law, so hanging it will be. 

Hanging Saddam won’t bring back any dead babies, of course, but if we keep destroying killer regimes (Germany, Japan, Soviet Union, Taliban in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya, soon Syria and Iran) and keep expanding the number of democracies (up by over 400% in the last century) the babies will live. 

Then you will have to find something else to complain about.

No Scorpy you and the corrupt and inhumane regime you are cheerleader for will still be here. This means we’ll still have plenty to complain about.

You are the problem. You are a dangerous lunatic.

You are a lunatic, this is shown by your postings.  Assuming you have the vote, you are dangerous.

Saddam could never have killed those babies without the help of the US government, read about it. 

Furthermore Scumbag, he is not around anymore and those babies are still dying at an even faster rate than they were under a sanctions crippled Baathist Government.

So suck it up you lame excuse for a man, you represent a point of view which is recognised among professionals as a condition. 

A SOCIAL DISEASE.

http://www.new-enlightenment.com/conservatism_social_disease.htm

From “How Long Can This Go On”.
Some fun facts for Scorpy to ignore.

“UPI correspondent Martin Sieff reported on Oct. 7 that U.S. wounded jumped from 16.3 per day at the end of September to 28.5 per day at the beginning of October. Multiply that daily rate by 30 days and you get 855 wounded per month. Approximately half of these are wounded too seriously to return to combat”

“Insurgents are killing Iraqi security personnel who are collaborating with the U.S. occupation at the rate of two or three hundred per month. The wounded numbers are much higher.

Last month, suicide bombers killed 481 Iraqis and wounded 1,074”

“On Oct. 5, Vice President Cheney let us know how long this commitment was to last: “Like other great duties in history, it will require decades of patient effort.”

Who’s going to pay for these decades of war to which the Bush administration is committing Americans? Already the U.S. is spending $7 billion a month on war in Iraq alone. The nonpartisan Congressional Research Service says that if the Iraq war goes on another five years, it will cost at least $570 billion by 2010.

Bush’s war has already doubled the price of gasoline and home heating.

With U.S. forces bogged down in Afghanistan (invaded Oct. 7, 2001) and Iraq (invaded March 20, 2003), Bush is plotting regime change in Syria and conspiring to set up Iran for attack.

Is there a single person in the Office of Management and Budget, the U.S. Treasury, the Congressional Budget Office, or the Federal Reserve who thinks the U.S., already drowning in red ink, has the resources to fight wars for decades?”

http://www.rense.com/general67/howlongcanthisgo.htm

Scorp thinks we destroyed the Soviet Union? Somehow I must have missed that one. I do remember we out-spent them. I do remember a huge deficit run up by Reagan to be able to out-spend them. An annual deficit that took over a decade to bring back to fiscal responsibility. I do remember a Soviet Premier named Gorbachov who ushered in Glostnost to begin reforms.

Of course Russia is now just a new form of corruption trying to mimmick American corruption.

Scorp probably defines Russia as a democracy. I wonder how he feels about Venezuala’s democracy. Probably doesn’t count it, because they have a leftist elected leader.

Hanging Saddam? Bet scorp loves the new Iraq with the death penalty. Looking around the world at all the “democracies” he counts, very few of them have the death penalty like we do. Death penalty countries are mostly non-democracies like Iran and Saudi Arabia with their public hangings. And until recently, we were one of only a handful of nations that applied the death penalty to our youth, associating ourselves with the worst regimes in the world.

I also must have missed the US destroying Libya as well. And of course Scorp purposely forgets that in World War II we were not alone, we had major allies (unlike in the Iraq War).

As to the Taliban, they are still around and fighting. I wouldn’t be so quick to think they are destroyed. Someday we’ll probably get tired of Afghanistan and pull out just like the Soviets did.

Since World War II the US has never created a democracy in another country through war. Afghanistan and Iraq are occupied “democracies.” Once our troops leave, our post WWII history gives no indication that a “democracy” is what will remain.

Scorps version of the truth is usually filled with holes, lies, inaccuracies and information that he/she would rather not mention. Sounds like Bush. They both must be revision historians.

Finally, Scorp thinks we’ve destroyed Iraq? What drugs is Scorp on? Certainly we destroyed their infrastructure and now we still can’t even repair it. Certainly Saddam is out of power, won’t argue with that. But to make some claim that somehow it’s a done deal is ignoring the facts of the daily death counts.

I imagine that Scorp can’t be too happy about the latest polling. NBC/Wall Street Journal poll has Bush’s approval rating at 39%. Only 28% believe the country is headed in the right direction. The most recent CBS poll, 64% oppose Bush’s handling of the War in Iraq. And a poll was just released that found that 50% were in favor of impeachment if Bush was found to have lied about reasons to attack Iraq. Which is interesting since now more than 50% believe Bush DID lie about Iraq.

The support for Bush is now just down to the Kool-Aid drinking, praying to their Bush-God, ignorers of truth. Bush has become the joke of America to all but the insane. Just watching the late night talk shows is enough evidence as they rip Bush (and Bush buddies) relentlessly. The media (except for FOX News) has turned against him finally, and he’ll never get them back. Scorp must be feeling pretty lonely these days.

I’d shed a tear for Scorp, except I’m sure he didn’t do so for those of us that knew the truth of Bush long before the rest of the public woke up.

Hang on there Jon, all OK except References to Iran as noy being a democracy.

Their recent elections were transparent, well attended and decisive. The international observers, (Who were unwelcome in USA) were satisfied that the process was all above board.

This is important, because Iran and Venezuala are healthier democracies than the USA and Rabbit has been making this point all along.

As for WWII Rabbit has ignored Scorpy’s claims that it was a US won war.

He obviously doesn’t know that Britain Australia, New Zealand and remnants of armies from many European countries as well were fighting that War for years before US invovlement.  The Germans had been stopped and were being bled by the time the USA joined the party. Details of history which have no relevance on Scorpy’s brief cartoon histories.

Scorpy got all his info about WWII from old recruiting posters sounds like.

As for the Japs, Aussies and New Zealanders as well as Pommies did the daily drudge fighting in the pacific. The Yank involvement was more in large waves at irregular intervals. The rest of the time the Yank soldiers were based in Australian ports where “some” made pigs of themselves, Our own troops, my Grandfather was one, did not see home shores for several years between tours in New Guinea and various pacific Islands.  Just a bit of nuance for that cartoon history lesson Scorpy lives with.

Yoh Rabbit!

Anybody!

How do you send a PM on this
Software sorry Site?

Can anybody tell me?

“Members” just gets me to my own Prof.

Cannot find access1?1?

DON’T PANIC, LAGOMORPH!  DON’T PANIC, JON B!  Panic does absolutely no good and it makes you look foolish.

>> Saddam could never have killed those babies without the help of the US government, read about it.  <<

Saddam was an accomplished killer in his own right, including one million dead in aggressive wars, and something more than one million dead among his own Iraqi civilians.  Massgraves website has documented 400,000 dead Iraqi civilians killed by Saddam’s Ba’athists, including victims of the Anfal, the Marsh Arabs pogrom, the Shi’ite suppression, and the various victims of Saddam’s prisons and extrajudicial executions. Doing the math, 47 Iraqi civilians were executed daily, on average, for the ~8500 days of Saddam’s Presidency - and that is only from the tally of bodies documented from the mass graves.  Forty-seven dead per day is far more than al-Qa’eda is able to accomplish currently in spite of your hysterical rants about the number of dead in the War against the Terrorists.  Counting all Saddam’s wars and terrorism, over 200 innocents died each day during his 24+ years in office.

When I say that the killer regimes were destroyed, do you think they voluntarily decided to become democracies?  Well, no.  They were forced to change their policies by the democracies, including the USA.  The Soviet Union was too corrupt and inefficient to compete with the USA any longer.  It may have been a Cold War, but it was a war, and there is no more mass murder in the USSR, just as there is no more USSR.  Do you think Qaddafi will be bombing any more 747s?  None of these yahoos are democracies yet, but neither are they mass murderers or active terrorist states, as they once were.  The same is true of China, where we are promoting democracy and free enterprise.

There has been much comment on you leftists who murder your fellow humans and lie about it.  Near 100 million innocent people died in the communist holocaust, mainly in the Soviet Union and in China, but also in Eastern Europe, Vietnam, Cambodia, and Korea.  So why do you complain so bitterly when we free people from communist and totalitarian tyranny?  Has any tyrannous state ever prevailed over democracy?  There was Vietnam, of course, but then Vietnam was mismanaged by a bunch of Liberal Democrat twits.  You may complain that we have not been perfect or immaculate in eliminating terrorists, but you can hardly argue with results: Afghanistan, Iraq, Ukrania, Georgia, Lebanon, and that is only in the last five years. 

So when I say, “DON’T PANIC” I know that you are going to panic regardless, but this is not a cause for concern.  We still have the Bill of Rights and the Second Amendment to enforce the Bill of Rights, so just go ahead and say any foolish or dishonest thing you wish.  We will protect you, no matter how stupidly you act.

Eadora, I don’t think they have that service avaiable here.

Yes Scorpy you are right, of coursae you know more about us than we do ourselves, so it is good we have you to tell us we are panicking.

As for Scorpy he is still sailing onwards in his ship of delusions like the fool his mother raised.

Good onya Scorpy.

Here is a little something repeated for you again from another thread you ran away from with your tail where your hand usually is.

By the way. Lest anybody forget, Rabbit is an Aussie. His Grandfather fought the Japanese and Rabbit has not been brought up to love the Japanese.

In truth Rabbit does not love the Japanese. As tourists they are as arrogant and almost as insensitive as Americans. They seem to Rabbit to suffer some deformity of soul as a people, around some rather gross expressions of sexuality. That is the best Rabbit can describe something which he feels is well represented by the Japanese cult films, “Weather Girl”. 

We had a lot of diggers at war with them and our country was bombed the only times in its history by the Japanese. Rabbit has known a few, who were in Japanese POW camps.  This must be taken into account when the above link is read. Despite all this Rabbit accepts that the article which is sourced above is a good representation of the truth.  Things just are not so black and white, you may wish they were, but they are not.

Rabbit knows that those who survive the US torture and POW camps for UN-POWS will not tell a kinder story of their time in US captivity, than our POWS tell of the Japanese. There are some good stories about Japanese soldiers and guards too and there will be some good stories told one day about US guards at Guantanamo Bay.  Maybe.  We are not talking about the USA in WWII, we are talking about GITMO and ABU GHRAIB, and hundreds of other such camps actually, which you have probably never even heard named.

Do you know how many other torture and prison camps the USA has?  Do you imagine they are just two, because that is all the MSM has bothered to focus on?

Posted by GhostRabbit on October 13, 2005 at 9:41 PM from HERE .
More from Mike Rogers

“Japan attacked the United States first.”

“If you mean that the Japanese bombed the military base of Pearl Harbor, before the US bombed the Japanese, then this is a difficult question to answer (see #1 below). If you mean that Japan committed acts of war against the United States first, then the answer is a definitive, “No!” The United States committed at least two acts of war under international law against Japan before December 7, 1941. They were:

US military pilots – 40 from the Army Air Corps and 60 from the US Navy and Marine Corps – in a clandestine operation organized by and funded by the Whitehouse – flying bombing missions against Japanese forces in the famed Flying Tigers as early as 1937. These people did “volunteer” to fly for the Flying Tigers but they were paid employees of the US government. US pilots flying bombing missions for the Chinese was an act of war under international law by America against Japan. Even with the weak argument that these professional military men were “volunteers” (when they were actually sent by the US government), under international law, a nation is responsible for the actions of its nationals. To claim otherwise is hypocritical and completely irresponsible.

US initiated oil embargo against Japan. This is unquestionably an act of war under international law. The US was also totally hypocritical on this point as they forced the British and the Dutch to uphold the embargo, yet secretly allowed Japan oil from the United States as a way to spy on Japanese shipping. See: Day of Deceit by Robert Stinnett.

Counting the above two, then President Roosevelt had a total of eight plans to incite hostilities with the Japanese. The rest, as they say “is history.” There are a great many excellent books and articles on what really happened in World War II. The serious student (and professor) would do themselves and their country good to seek out the truth. Things are not as black and white as US public schooling and US history books would lead us to believe. The true causes of the Pacific War were the clash of the US empire in Asia and the Japanese empire.”

http://www.lewrockwell.com/rogers/rogers178.html
----------------------------------------------
Study that SCORPY.  This too, dimwitted Shill.
Here is a new one in from Iraq.

“Iraqis apprehend two Americans disguised as Arabs trying to detonate a car bomb in a residential neighborhood of western Baghdad’s al-Ghazaliyah district on Tuesday.

A number of Iraqis apprehended two Americans disguised in Arab dress as they tried to blow up a booby-trapped car in the middle of a residential area in western Baghdad on Tuesday.

Residents of western Baghdad’s al-Ghazaliyah district told Quds Press that the people had apprehended the Americans as they left their Caprice car near a residential neighborhood in al-Ghazaliyah on Tuesday afternoon (11 October 2005). Local people found they looked suspicious so they detained the men before they could get away. That was when they discovered that they were Americans and called the Iraqi puppet police.

Five minutes after the arrival of the Iraqi puppet police on the scene a large force of US troops showed up and surrounded the area. They put the two Americans in one of their Humvees and drove away at high speed to the astonishment of the residents of the area.

Quds Press spoke by telephone with a member of the al-Ghazaliyah puppet police who confirmed the incident, saying that the two men were non-Arab foreigners but declined to be more precise about their nationality”

http://iraqwar.mirror-world.ru/article/66432

Hi Eadora

This software challenged site does not provide that service, as David points out.

Most around here would probably not be adverse to providing their contact if asked anyway.

Scorp, no panic here, just amazement at some of your historical beliefs and the use of absence of facts. And usually those absence of facts are to make sure you put your dig into Democrats and not Republicans. And trust me, I don’t have any love for Democrats any more than Republicans. But I will most certainly point out your one sided view of things.

To you apparently Viet Nam was all about Democrats, completely ignoring the Nixon years. Nixon who promised in his campaign to get out of Nam but went on to continue to wage the war and even escalate it. It took two parties to tangle in Nam, they both deserve raspberries. But your words completely ignore the Republican involvement. Even in the Johnson years there was Republican support in Congress.

From Scorp..."There has been much comment on you leftists who murder your fellow humans and lie about it.  Near 100 million innocent people died in the communist holocaust, mainly in the Soviet Union and in China, but also in Eastern Europe, Vietnam, Cambodia, and Korea.  So why do you complain so bitterly when we free people from communist and totalitarian tyranny?”

You leftist? As if I had anything to do with those terrible regimes. I didn’t accept that the USSR was good, any more than I accept that US slavery/Jim Crow (which was going on thru the cold war) or the massacre of native Americans was good (performed in a democracy). Our “democracy” house is stained with blood right in our own backyard.

The saying “all politics is local” applies. Until we have become a true democracy and have fixed our flaws, I don’t feel we have much to say about other nations and their flaws.

I don’t accept the premise of your question above. First I don’t complain bitterly. Second your definition of democracy and mine differ greatly. Third, I don’t accept that we were the ones that “destroyed” communism. Yes, I agree the USSR was corrupt (and still is) and viscious to its people, as are we now (corrupt) and our history is one of visciousness to our people. And I will repeat, we are called a democracy. Doesn’t seem to much matter whether communist or democratic, both have histories of vileness to the extreme. But Scorp, you are a homer. “My country right or wrong” is probably your motto.

As to leftist, I’m probably closer to an anarchist and I’m not sure that is even defined as left or right. I’m anti-authoritarian, anti-elitist, anti-corporation. I’m for the people, the masses who are controlled by those in power. Thus I’m not for either political party. What I read from your words is someone who obeys or follows his leaders and in your case Republicans. You’ve accepted a political party dogma and repeat the party line. Nothing unusual about that, the majority of people in this country do that as well. And you’ve accepted someone elses definition of democracy as to the United States. I don’t.

And I have to laugh at the 2nd amendment and Republicans. All I hear these days from Republicans about the Constitution is that we should be strict constructionists or have a literal reading. Another Republican lie. Not to say that many Democrats don’t lie as well.

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

So when will the strict constructionists decide that arms bearers must be members of a well regulated militia to defend a free state, and not to defend themselves in some free-for-all. The NRA chooses to ignore the first half of the amendment in their rhetoric.

To further elaborate. I’m far from some Wilsonian view that America must intervene with our military outside of our lands. It is more hypocrisy.

When we had our civil war, the North for instance was highly upset that France was considering siding with the Confederates and rightly so. This was our own domestic dispute and the North didn’t want some Wilsonian France getting involved (although the chances of France actually coming to America and fighting alongside the South was remote at best, it was more of a trade deal). Neither side in our Civil War wanted other countries involved for the other side.

In that same vein, I’m not in favor of America intervening in other nations problems in all but the most extreme circumstances (WWII, Nazi Germany comes to mind). They must work things out themselves because our history of intervention has clearly shown that what we leave when we go home is not necessarily a better result.

Nations change. The USSR of Stalin was not the same as the USSR of Brezhnev or Gorbachev for instance. They changed without our intervention within their borders. The Cold War had very little to do with changes in the USSR except we out-spent them in the arms race and interventionist wars. It was essentially a spending race as both countries saddled themselves with huge debt. Gorby decided he had had enough of that. We didn’t free The Ukraine or Georgia as you claim, we didn’t set one foot into those countries (except the CIA).

Ask yourself whether if another country in say 1850 had decided that our tyranny over African-Americans should not go on any longer, that they needed to intervene and fix our nation, what would have been the result? My thinking is that we would have joined North and South in mostly a solidarity and repulsed that country simply because we wouldn’t have wanted another nation to solve our problem. We would have had some people join the invading army, but not many.

What of 1954 or so. What if the UN had many nations decide that our Jim Crow laws in the south were so anti-human rights that resolutions were passed and a coalition decided to invade and remove our president?

And in todays atmosphere of WMDs ownership, we should have been inspected and then invaded because we used nukes on the Japanese. Make that about 1947 or ‘48 after World War II was over.

Crazy hypotheticals certainly, but Americans would have fought back bitterly in response. We would never have wanted other nations to impose their will on us.

And what makes us the ultimate arbiters of who has nukes? I’m not opposed to Iran having nukes. If I was Iranian and looked around at my neighboring countries and saw that Israel, Pakistan and India all had nukes, I’d want some as well so that the threat of MAD (mutual assured destruction) would help protect my nation.

What gave us the right to bring the Shah of Iran to power through a CIA led coup? And what did we really get except blowback?

Why do we continue to suck the teat of Saudi Arabia’s oil industry while they support terror groups and teach Whabbism around the Middle East? Blowback has resulted.

Why did we support Saddam Hussein during the Iran/Iraq War? Because we didn’t like the people of Iran after disposing of their cruel Shah and then the hostage situation. More blowback.

When will we ever learn that intervention has future results that we never see coming like not seeing the forest because of the trees?

And from just the few examples I’ve given, why do I highly suspect that Afghanistan and Iraq will not be the democracies I’ve been promised by the latest chimp running my country?

I’ll answer that question. Because we are too stupid to learn from our past, and much of that stupidity has come in my lifetime. Because I’ve watched presidents from both parties come up fairly empty in their promises and results of interventive wars.

Jon

That is an eminently sensible and considered post, it never ceases to amaze how such straight forward honest common sense can be spurned by others.  It will be, just watch.

>> I don’t have any love for Democrats any more than Republicans.  <<

Republicans can be pretty stupid, just like most people, but they are not trying to get me killed, as the Democrats did in Vietnam.  The communists killed 100 million people?  No problem.  Che executed prisoners?  Cool.  Pol Pot?  Saddam?  Rwanda? Darfur?  Do the Liberals give a shit?  Hell, no.  09/11?  Democrats can’t be bothered.

There are many interesting things going on in the world.  Totalitarians, principally communists and now religious terrorists, are killing people.  Free market democracies are creating more free market democracies, liberating people, providing for the economic needs of people, and feeding people.  (The Green Revolution, led by American Norman Borlaug and financed by American Foundations, averted wide spread famine in the 1960s and 1970s, saving one billion people from starvation.  American science and financing now play a major roll in increasing crop production throughout the world, giving Liberals one more damn thing to complain about.) Did the Soviets prevent starvation?  No.  Russia had a surplus of wheat, which it exported, up until 1918 when the Soviets came into power.  The Soviets were net importers of food from 1918 to 1996, the entire Soviet period, when grain surpluses resumed in Russia.  The Soviet style was to starve people in the Gulag, and maintain survivors in a destitute state.  The religious terrorists aren’t big on grain production either; their style is head-hunting and human sacrifice. 

And you are an anarchist?  How quaint.  This is the most dynamic and interesting period in human history, and you have chosen to neuter yourself.  Whatever turns you on, knock yourself out, boy.

Scorpy would know about as much about Anarcho-Socialism as he knows about anything else, except his own navel.

He’s already been told by amny why his ideas are useless, they are based on a very onesided and limited view of history.

...............................................................^^............... .............................

What a quaint world Scorpy lives in, every time Rabbit reads his posts, Rabbit feels like he is in a time warp. Talking to someone who is actually living in the 1980’s still.

he has before referred to the need to bring “others” into the “Tentieth” century. Perhaps he is an evil timelord?

OK best not to give the troll any little toys. Correction.

He (Scorpy) has before referred to the need to bring “others” into the “Twentieth” century.

.....................................................Perhaps he is an evil timelord?

Yoh! Scorp. 

I can’t keep up with the volume you guys put out.
Time constrains slow me down

And so would like to refer back:
Posted by scorp on October 12, 2005 at 8:19 PM
Your continued defense of the sanctions policy as it took effect in Iraq, is quite disturbing
I Quote the scorp
2) The babies are dead because Saddam withheld food and medicine in order to buy golden palaces and illegal weapons for himself.
“This statement is blatantly untrue.  It will be of no use to you when you try to rationalize or justify the blood on your hands.
The Chicago based “Voices in the Wilderness.” Is the group who tried to divert medical supplies, to Iraqi children, during the sanctions
The group spearheaded more than 70 delegations to the country, bringing children’s antibiotics, blood bags and over-the-counter medications to people in need

Now these MEDICAL supplies were being prevented from reaching Iraqi children by the sanctions imposed by the “United States”
Not by Sadham Hussein’s government.
Get your FACTS straight and your Truths and Lies in proper order on this issue.

It does not take a Philadelphia Lawyer or a Rocket Scientist to realize what the results of sanctions that withheld these types of items from the civilian population would be.

Namely the sanctions were “CALCULATED” to cause the miserable deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children and other civilians.  And that is “WAR CRIME” bros!.

“Voices in the Wilderness” sought to do an end run around the sanctions for purely non profit, humanitarian reasons, and deliver “children’s medicines.” And other needed supplies.
They were not exporting guns to that country. 
Their efforts had nothing whatsoever to do with the so-called “Food for Oil” deal. 

It was action taken by men and women of good will and who would not allow themselves to stand by and do nothing in the face of such atrocity

Remember, The United States makes the intent of their sanctions very clear, when such “Medical Necessities” are included on the list of items that are not to be allowed.

It is a direct attack on the weakest members of the civilian population.
We can only conclude that they wanted to cause as many of these types of casualties as possible. 
I believe that they would technically fall out of the convenient category of “collateral damage” would they not?
And so they have regrettably met with some success in achieving those aims.

And to further clarify the malignant intent of their policies, they are now actively engaged in prosecuting and ruining the lives of the people who refused to sit back and do nothing while children died.

Now those are the FACTS regarding this specific issue.  They stand STARK and clear to the mind, heart and eye.
If you refuse to see them you stand “willfully ignorant.

If you continue to defend such indefensible policy, you MARK yourself a moral VOID>
Sorry there is just no nice way to say that.

Yoh! Scorp. 

I can’t keep up with the volume you guys put out.
Time constrains slow me down

And so would like to refer back:
Posted by scorp on October 12, 2005 at 8:19 PM

Your continued defense of the sanctions policy as it took effect in Iraq, is quite disturbing

I Quote the scorp
2) The babies are dead because Saddam withheld food and medicine in order to buy golden palaces and illegal weapons for himself.

“This statement is blatantly untrue.  It will be of no use to you when you try to rationalize or justify the blood on your hands.

The Chicago based “Voices in the Wilderness.” Is the group who tried to divert medical supplies, to Iraqi children, during the sanctions

The group spearheaded more than 70 delegations to the country, bringing children’s antibiotics, blood bags and over-the-counter medications to people in need

Now these MEDICAL supplies were being prevented from reaching Iraqi children by the sanctions imposed by the “United States”

Not by Sadham Hussein’s government.

Get your FACTS straight and your Truths and Lies in proper order on this issue.

It does not take a Philadelphia Lawyer or a Rocket Scientist to realize what the results of sanctions that withheld these types of items from the civilian population would be.

Namely the sanctions were “CALCULATED” to cause the miserable deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children and other civilians.  And that is “WAR CRIME” bros!.

“Voices in the Wilderness” sought to do an end run around the sanctions for purely non profit, humanitarian reasons, and deliver “children’s medicines.” And other needed supplies.
They were not exporting guns to that country. 
Their efforts had nothing whatsoever to do with the so-called “Food for Oil” deal. 

It was action taken by men and women of good will and who would not allow themselves to stand by and do nothing in the face of such atrocity

Remember, The United States makes the intent of their sanctions very clear, when such “Medical Necessities” are included on the list of items that are not to be allowed.

It is a direct attack on the weakest members of the civilian population.
We can only conclude that they wanted to cause as many of these types of casualties as possible. 
I believe that they would technically fall out of the convenient category of “collateral damage” would they not?
And so they have regrettably met with some success in achieving those aims.

And to further clarify the malignant intent of their policies, they are now actively engaged in prosecuting and ruining the lives of the people who refused to sit back and do nothing while children died.

Now those are the FACTS regarding this specific issue.  They stand STARK and clear to the mind, heart and eye.
If you refuse to see them you stand “willfully ignorant.

If you continue to defend such indefensible policy, you MARK yourself a moral VOID>
Sorry there is just no nice way to say that.

Yoh! Scorp. 

I can’t keep up with the volume you guys put out.
Time constrains slow me down

And so would like to refer back:
Posted by scorp on October 12, 2005 at 8:19 PM

Your continued defense of the sanctions policy as it took effect in Iraq, is quite disturbing

I Quote the scorp
2) The babies are dead because Saddam withheld food and medicine in order to buy golden palaces and illegal weapons for himself.

“This statement is blatantly untrue.  It will be of no use to you when you try to rationalize or justify the blood on your hands.

The Chicago based “Voices in the Wilderness.” Is the group who tried to divert medical supplies, to Iraqi children, during the sanctions

The group spearheaded more than 70 delegations to the country, bringing children’s antibiotics, blood bags and over-the-counter medications to people in need

Now these MEDICAL supplies were being prevented from reaching Iraqi children by the sanctions imposed by the “United States”

Not by Sadham Hussein’s government.

Get your FACTS straight and your Truths and Lies in proper order on this issue.

It does not take a Philadelphia Lawyer or a Rocket Scientist to realize what the results of sanctions that withheld these types of items from the civilian population would be.

Namely the sanctions were “CALCULATED” to cause the miserable deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children and other civilians.  And that is “WAR CRIME” bros!.

“Voices in the Wilderness” sought to do an end run around the sanctions for purely non profit, humanitarian reasons, and deliver “children’s medicines.” And other needed supplies.
They were not exporting guns to that country. 
Their efforts had nothing whatsoever to do with the so-called “Food for Oil” deal. 

It was action taken by men and women of good will and who would not allow themselves to stand by and do nothing in the face of such atrocity

Remember, The United States makes the intent of their sanctions very clear, when such “Medical Necessities” are included on the list of items that are not to be allowed.

It is a direct attack on the weakest members of the civilian population.
We can only conclude that they wanted to cause as many of these types of casualties as possible. 
I believe that they would technically fall out of the convenient category of “collateral damage” would they not?
And so they have regrettably met with some success in achieving those aims.

And to further clarify the malignant intent of their policies, they are now actively engaged in prosecuting and ruining the lives of the people who refused to sit back and do nothing while children died.

Now those are the FACTS regarding this specific issue.  They stand STARK and clear to the mind, heart and eye.
If you refuse to see them you stand “willfully ignorant.

If you continue to defend such indefensible policy, you MARK yourself a moral VOID>
Sorry there is just no nice way to say that.

there is just no nice way to say that.

This is how well off the food is Scorpy.

The Coming Starvation of America

http://www.rense.com/general67/starve.htm
-------------------------------------------
Have a read up on how well your little war freedom and improved conditions for the poor victims of Saddams predations.  Scorpy Check out your war.

Iraqi Resistance Report - GRIM for somebody.

http://iraqwar.mirror-world.ru/article/66432
-------------------------------------------
Have a look at how the LIES are doing dow-under, SCORPY. 

NO Muslim Terrorist Organisations in Indonesia

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,16898139%5E29277,0 00.html
---------------------------------------------
See what is in the news in other countries, even your allies Scorpy. 

Iraq descended into anarchy.

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/article319160.ece
---------------------------------------------
The real reason the hated court appointed Fascist President Bush wants to go after the popular democratically elected Chavez!

http://www.radford.edu/~wkovarik/oil/oilcharts.html
----------------------------------------------
Scorpy would not be panicking of course, not Scorpy, he knows it is 1984, and it always will be.

HI Eadora.............................................Hoppy Happy Rabbit sees you.  It is Saturday morning, the sun is shining downunder and the small Rabbit and I are at the factory selling kayaks.  How is Eadora.?

Jeebus Creets!

My post last night it would not go on to the forums.
This morning there are three of them!
Sorry about the mess!  Maybe on the the moderators can delete the extraneous posts.

Computer gremlins always amuse me. Bad ‘puter.

Once upon a time,
I was in the process of proof reading and wondering if I had more to say when the screen refreshed to the top of the article page. I scrolled down and there was my post, posted without being submitted.

Be stern with your ‘puter, Eadora. Tell it to play nice with the ITT ‘puters.

Glad is rabbit he has not got the only Gremlins on the Block.

His Wonky Computer has been up to a new kind of crashing the last few days, but Rabbit will ignore it as always, it soon goes away or settles into a pattern which is easy to recognise and avoid. Best to live and let live, even with Computer glitches is Rabbit’s office motto.  Mrs rabbit sometimes interferes and everything gets fixed and tidead and it takes many months for things to feel “right” again.

It’s the Electrons we have to give attention to.  There are so many of them, and they are really very effective things. You can communicate with them in every way imaginable, they are sooo puny that the most minute thing, even a thought can affect a good many of them at once. Recognising this, Rabbit always addresses all prayers and queries and “energy” into dealing with the workers, the ELECTRONS.

If we can learn to communicate with the electrons, directly, we can get them to even defy the Beastmen. They will do our will, instead of allowing themselves to be pressganged into spying on us, or lying to us, they will retaliate when they are ordered to shoot the missile or shut down the free radio.

Rabbit loves and honours the electrons and calls for othrs to at least remember them.

Electrons are to CYBER life, and Technology what the Bacteria and microorganisms are to Earth life.  The greatest mass by far of all living things are bacteria and such microorganisms. They are the most essential to the survival of all life and not least the climate itself.

Then consider that all of them, including you and I, are being made possible by the crazy and weird, charging about antics of Electrons. Electrons mmove about like a wave, or a particle or just as a kind of energy, there is no single definition which suffices. Electrons can move through the dimension of time as easily as the three dimesions with which we are most familiar.

Electrons are measurably involved in what evidence there is of the unseen dimensions involved in what we usually think of as the paranormal.

Rabbit respects the elctrons. They are like multi-dimensional ANTS, who are prepared to be life’s servants, rather than servants to their own colony.  I guess we really are the colony of the Electrons. Maybe the Electrons are GOD?

Interesting that your one-sided view can remember Rawanda, but can’t see headlines of this past year, Sudan. Bush completely ignored the bloodshed in that country. But oops, Bush is a Republican. Don’t want to critize your own party do you?

When will the political party kool-aid drinkers ever understand that it is BOTH parties. The reason is simple, follow-the-leader. In America we are told to pick a side and bow down to the leaders, when it really is that BOTH parties are corrupt.

Politically most Americans think of themselves as “independent” or “free-thinkers” when in fact most Americans are told who to vote for, and they lamely accept that. We are given two choices of little difference, candidates that blather on with the same old tired ideas. Actually many times incumbents run unopposed, giving us only one choice and the voters check the box for that only choice thinking “I did my duty, I’m (small “d") democratic.” If that one candidate is from the party that a person adores, then they think “I won.”

The fact is no voter wins, the candidate wins. Then after the election the voters go back to their lives content in trusting that that “winner” will rule over them in complete agreement with every viewpoint they personally have. I have yet to see a politician that 100% believes in eveything I do. I have never had a representative actually represent me. When every American can say that their viewpoint counts, then we will have a democracy.

I’m not a millionaire, not even close. Yet of all the federally elected officials, a whopping three-quarters of them are millionaires. They absolutely don’t represent me based on income alone. So, in America where 90-some percent are not millionaires we decide that it’s important to have millionaires represent us. We send them off to Washington to make laws to rule over us. Millionaires making laws for the vast majority of America, now there’s insanity. And to top it off, we’re suppose to believe that absolutely no self interest exists in all these elected millionaires.

This is not a country of “We the People.” This is a nation of “We the ruled by the elite.” But of course most people take comfort in being ruled over. Most people are followers of “heros” whether politicians or actors or CEOs or athletes. Most people accept a reality that others are better than them. Most people won’t admit to that, but it’s true none-the-less.

A day will come when Americans demand a new system. Look at current polling. Bush’s approval rating 38%. Congress’ approval rating in the 30% range. The media approval rating, in the 40’s. Distrust of corporations is above 70% and has been for about two decades. Even religious institutions don’t get much trust anymore. We exist in a system we don’t even approve of, how sad. The fact is that Americans instinctively know our society is corrupt. They know this because we exist in it, we see it every day on TV, in our jobs, in politics local and national.

Nearly every top down organization in this country has some form of corruption. Americans instinctively know this as well. And if no corruption is publicly evident, we expect it some day.

The Scorps of America will defend their party when confronted with evidence of corruption by pointing their finger the other direction. How often I’ve heard in the last five years, “Look at the Clintons...” As if two wrongs make a right. The same with capitalism. Quick, point at communism. I say again, I don’t defend communism, it was top down corruption like capitalism. Pointing from one bad system to another bad system doesn’t defend a bad system.

But I forgot, the scorps think in black and white, up or down, left or right. Thinking any other way for them is apparently called “nuetral.”

I had to laugh at the Republicans when the “oil for food” program was found to be corrupt. They were so fast to jump all over the UN, but wait...It turns out American companies were involved. Once that was revealed the attack rhetoric was deafening in its new found silence.

There’s an expression that I’ve always liked. “When you point your finger, you’ve got three more pointing back at you.” For those kool-aid drinking scorpys that might not understand that expression, point at something and then look at your hand.

Go on and continue to defend the Tom Delays, the Karl Roves, the Bill Frists. Most Americans see it for what it is, corruption. Pointing your finger at Democrats (or the media), blaming them for those guys troubles is so predictable. Why don’t you try a new tactic? Throw the bums out. Purge your party of corruption, novel idea, eh?

Not in America. Admitting to mistakes (and then actually paying for those mistakes) is not to be done. Once in power (and power does corrupt) no apologies. So, since cleaning up your own house is not an option, you’ll eventually lose that power. The Democrats will assume power some day and of course procede to abuse it just like you guys.

American politics is so predictable these days. Political party coin flipping. The losers of course are not either party, it’s “We the People.”

Eadora, .. and I should have also said how happy I am that your post(s) made it through the wilderness. Three times is OK too. Much there worth repeating. hehe

Jon B, Excellent posts. Politics, in my country as well, has become a predictable exercise in “ tossing the rascals out “. Out with the old, in with the new. But the new is the same as the old : corrupt and selfish.

>> Interesting that your one-sided view can remember Rawanda, but can’t see headlines of this past year, Sudan. Bush completely ignored the bloodshed in that country. But oops, Bush is a Republican. Don’t want to critize your own party do you?  <<

Hate to ring your bell, boy, but Darfur is the troubled region of Sudan that has been in the news for the last year or so, and I definitely listed Darfur in my indictment of Liberals/communists who ignore genocide.  At any rate, even with your powerful abilities of perception, you may not have noticed that President Bush and the Coalition have been somewhat busy bringing democracy to 52 million people in Afghanistan and Iraq. 

Moreover, under the UN Charter, the UN is charged with saving “succeeding generations from the scourge of war, which twice in our lifetime has brought untold sorrow to mankind” among other things.  And how did the UN discharge its responsibilities in Darfur under the UN Charter?  With the dead in Darfur estimated between 70,000 and 400,000 (depending on whether you count only those machine-gunned from helicopters and such, or if you include those who died of thirst or starvation when driven from their homes), the UN commission investigating the situation found that “most attacks were deliberately and indiscriminately directed against civilians” but that “the violent acts do not amount to genocide”.  Which is not surprising; when, if ever, did the UN criticize anyone besides the USA and Israel, the two least culpable members?

>> http://edition.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/africa/01/31/sudan.report/ <<

See also >> http://www.cij.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewNews&newsID=14&print=true <<

But if you can make a credible case for the USA bringing freedom and justice to Sudan, we could do so in about five minutes, just as we could in Iraq, only there would be a lot of dead collaterals, and you don’t like that either.  But it worked in Dresden and Hiroshima, don’t forget.

You seem to argue that both political parties are corrupt, and that out there somewhere there is the capacity for an incorrupt, and incorruptible, political system.  That is nonsense, of course.  The only virtue the Republicans can claim is that they have less inclination to catastrophic damage and they have a superior self-correcting political and economic mechanism. 

The biggest Liberal-socialist catastrophe by far in recent times was the 100 million dead innocents under international communism, but Old Europe is creating its own slow motion train wreck by slavishly following socialist principles toward oblivion.  On a more modest scale, but still damaging, the Democrats created the “stagflation” of the Carter years and the recent Bubba Bubble, both of which did significant damage to the USA economy and to American workers, and both were solved by Republicans, Reagan and Bush 43, respectively.

>> The same with capitalism. Quick, point at communism. I say again, I don’t defend communism, it was top down corruption like capitalism. Pointing from one bad system to another bad system doesn’t defend a bad system.  <<

So, you think that communism and capitalism are equivalent, and both are corrupt and corruptible?  But, in your equation, you have not accounted for the 100 million dead victims of communism.  Did they not happen?  Are they unimportant?  If you are waiting for a system that is incorruptible, you will die waiting.  Enjoy.

Scorpy everyone knows you are a hysterical ball of bombastic delusions. You are a hypocritical fascist and you have never done more than repeat isolated one-sided versions of history. You have never offered anything but your word to back up anything you say and we already know that you have nothing except a standard set of Ditto ideas.  The majority of people on this site are vastly better educated than you, we are actually aware of all your historical examples but we can also place them in relation to the rest of history. For us the world does not start and stop everytime you turn on your television.

Rabbit has to admit that most of the time he just skims your rubbish because it is repeats, unsourced and hysterical. You’ve already made all two of your points and used an imagined variety of almost every historical event from the seige of Troy to the illegal and unjust attack of Iraq in 2003. You’ve made your attitudes clear and we are universally disgusted by you. If you wish to remain for us to taunt and abuse in creative ways as the urge takes us, by all means do so. 

As for being considered a part of any discussions, Rabbit for one does not see you as being of any relevance.  You have steadfastly refused to debate honourably, look at anything anyone writes or post any sort of reference to back up anything you go on about.

The only time you ever appear to answer anything someone else has said, is when you put words in others’ mouths.  You are not even original. Rabbit thinks you may even be a Shill.  Otherwise you are merely the most obnoxious Troll it has been Rabbit’s experience to discover.

To be frank we have far more creative dittoheads available for amusement and much more intelligent and reasonable conservatives with whom to actually debate.  You are nought but an extreme example of a hysterical screeching Fascist as it sinks into the swamp of it’s own creation.

Goodbye Scorpy!

Actually we are waiting for you to die so we can have an uncorruptible system.

Once people like you are extinct, and you are well on the way there............we might have a chance of peace and honourable politics.

You make the evil possible.

Sick Scorpy.

By the way Scorpy the fool, “OLD” Europe, (What constitutes New Europe?) is not going the way of socialism..  You sure do have some wacky ideas, the deeper the ditto, the stupider it gets.

EU - Europe, Old New and middle aged, is actually an example of the ultimate capitalist state. Much the same as the USA eventually. They are just starting with the bureacracy at high revs. It is inevitably going to be another great Fascist State like the USA has become. Inevitably though it is an even bigger