A Fundamental History Lesson

Noam Chomsky a “beacon of moral and intellectual integrity”? Surely you jest. This would be funny if it weren’t so sad at the same time. The fact that the Left is enamored of this fashionable intellectual and moral fraud is truly frightening. Anyone who cares to do some basic research knows that Chomsky is not even taken seriously by his supposed colleagues in the academy any longer with regard to his alleged specialty, Linguistics, much less with regard to his political screeds.

Or to put it another way:
who cares what man sits in the White House if that man must carry out the orders of the military-industrial-corporation-complex: invade Iraq to maximise our profits!

Thanks for opening my eyes: George W is a socialist - a flag-waver who knows how to use the props recognisable to the people!

How stupid of me to accuse the silly scorp of being a state department shill. It’s you, JasonPappas!

Name-calling, name-calling, EmitFlesti.
I happen to be a linguist and a member of “the academy”. Chomsky has defined the discipline for over fifty years. It is true, however, that many of his former students have not kept pace with his constant furthering of the discipline. They have chosen to protect their territory. Understandable - typical for former revolutionaries…

The academy is the Establishment - as it always has been. I would be very worried if they accepted him. It would be a sign of moral rot on his part…

Chomsky a moral fraud?! That is slander of the grandest order. Prove it with facts! You can’t defeat ideas with name-calling forever.

I offer the following challenge: let us all read his “Hegemony or Survival”. Then you and the scorp and jasonp can all point out what you don’t agree with - and we can debate it.

Not the old “Bush is just a Capitalist tool” routine. Give me a break. Do you have anything but stale leftist slogans?

Odd you call me a shill when my post above (7:39AM) calls for less economic intervention – and that includes subsidies to corporations. I don’t know how you’d see anything I say as being from the “State Department” when I’ve written nothing about the “State Department” and have nothing but criticism for Powell and his State Department. You must not know anything about the organization of the American government.

EmitFlesti:

Coming as it does from someone, who to all appearances, dwells in the lugubrious nadir of intellectual dishonesty and vapidity, your criticism of Chomsky is high praise indeed.

EmitFlesti:

Treating big business as an element of fascism is silly? What planet are you living on? Picture-book fascists of modern times such as Somoza or Pinochet had nothing to do with big business?

I’m not going to enter into a debate with you on the compatability of anarchism and socialism. A tightly-knit and well-organised society is the only way to realise true freedom without hierarchy. I am as sceptical of “state socialism” as you are - albeit for different reasons.

You are not an anarchist but a libertarian of the Ayn Rand sort, it seems. We don’t need to reinvent the wheel and discuss this here. I have neither the time nor the inclination to do so.

What are you doing on a website like this? Back in the German Democratic Republic, we had a state spy in every lecture, every seminar at university. That was always the big question: who of the people sitting there was the one who was spying on us? I can well imagine that Bush’s America has such a person in every listserv, every chat group on all the internet. Are you the government shill, the plant, EF?

Coming as it does from someone, who to all appearances, dwells in the lugubrious nadir of intellectual dishonesty and vapidity, your criticism of Chomsky is high praise indeed.

Vacuous name-calling without substance… Oh how this reminds me of the “good old days” of East Germany…
I hereby stop responding to you people. I’m sure that is your purpose - to silence the few who question your regime. It’s not enough for you to have total control of the MSM - you have to drive us sane people on the fringe crazy. Keep up the good fight, Rabbit, luminous beauty, major major - and all the rest of you decent souls…

Your right Sozi, everyone here who disagree with you is a secret agent of the Bush administration sent to spy on you, since you’re obviously a very important individual.

For what it’s worth, Ayn Rand was not a libertarian, so I can’t be a “libertarian of the Ayn Rand sort”. She repeatedly disclaimed such a label for herself and professed to despise the Libertarian Party of her day. I have my own disgreements with Rand, stemming largely from her knee-jerk anti-theism and also the fact that she claimed an originalty for her though that, being highly derivative, it did not posses - being highly derivative - and also from the fact that she proclaimed absolute freedom and rationality while at the same time encouraging a cult of personality around herself.

Anarchism is not compatible with Socialism. All socialism is “state socialism”.

Luminous, engaging in ad hominem attacks, with no indication that you have read or understood a thing, is hardly a serious argument.

Substance.

It’s also worth pointing out that without “Big Business” you and others on the Left wouldn’t have the very technology that allows you to broadcast you anti-Big Business ideology across the globe in mere seconds!

“When it comes to hang the capitalists they will compete with each other to sell us the rope at a lower price.”

Lenin

Gee, maybe you’re on to something.

One ad hominem, deserves another.  Come into my parlor and start kicking the dog, don’t expect politesse.

Anarchism is not compatible with Socialism. All socialism is “state socialism”.

A perfect example of intellectual dishonesty and vapidity.  No need to elucidate, it is obvious on its face.

Actually, your claim does need elucidating. How would you propose to implement Socialism without a State? Socialism requires a strong state to engage in socio-economic levelling, to confiscate private property, and to redistribute wealth from those who create and earn it to those who do not.

In an Anarchy, there would be no state to impose Socialism, and the natural disparities in talents and desires among individuals would result in disparities of wealth and property, the very thing Socialism professes to abhor.

You simply cannot have Anarchy and Socialism at the same time in the same place. They are mutually exclusive categories.

EF:

Your problem is your narrow and erroneous understanding of what Anarchism is.  I don’t mean the facile facsimile of AnarchoCapitalism of the so-called Libertarian Right.

The key is in your statement to wit:
In an Anarchy, there would be no state to impose Socialism.

A correct view would be:
In Anarchism, there is no state to impose Socialism.

There is no such animal as an Anarchy.  It is a one word oxymoron.  Anarchists are not concerned with utopian speculation.  You might have known this if you had actually read Chomsky rather than the specious and vicious lies promulgated by his detractors which you parrot in the most rote and robotic fashion.  I saw a red and black sticker posted on a street sign this afternoon that expressed this idea with graphic clarity. It read, “EXPECT RESISTANCE: the future is not yet written.

The depth of your understanding of socialism is likewise brain numbingly shallow.

It looks like I stumbled onto another replay of the decades old debate between Libertarian-Anarchism and Anarcho-Communism. It’s been 30 years since I last considered these utopian ideas. My main problem is that societal evolution is so painstakingly slow that it rarely pays to fine tune the dream. I’ll leave you folks to re-hash the old debate. Might I suggest that fewer personal attacks might help.

“The depth of your understanding of socialism is likewise brain numbingly shallow.” - Ah yes...reminds me of the earnest and self-righteous American girl in Prague a few summers ago who assured me that Socialism was a great idea that just hadn’t been correctly understood and implemented yet. Somehow it hadn’t occured to her that there were millions nearby who had relatively recently been liberated from Communist tryanny and who could tell her a thing or two about the implementation of Socialism.

Also, a word to the wise: I wouldn’t be too eager to broadcast that you find bumper-stickers a compelling form of political argument. Let me guess: you also drive a late-model Volvo, eat only Ice Cream brands that come wrapped in a political philosophy, and have a plethora of bumper-stickers on your car - with “Impeach Bush” and “Imagine Whirled Peas” featured prominently?

As for this: “The key is in your statement to wit:
In an Anarchy, there would be no state to impose Socialism. A correct view would be: In Anarchism, there is no state to impose Socialism,” you have essentially posited a distinction without a difference. My formulation was correct, in that the present non-existence of a state of Anarchy requires the conditional usage - “would be” - when describing the hypothetical nature of a hypothetical state. Whether one prefers the term Anarchy or Anarchism (much like one may variously use Monarchy/Monarchism, or Egalitarian/Egalitarianism, etc.), the key point in either is that there would be no state in such a system to impose Socialism. The very nature of Socialism requries the exisence of a state in order to impose the sort of egalitarian levelling that Socialism requires; ergo, Anarchy and Socialism are mutually exclusive.  How you come to the conclusion that Anarchy is a “one-word oxymoron” is baffling. The word is simply a composite of the Greek “an” meaning “absence of”, and “arche” meaning “authority or government”. Hence Anarchy means “absence of authority or absence of government” (similarly Monarchy means “authority or government by one”, and Democracy means “rule or power excercized by the many”, and Aristocracy means “rule or power excercized by the those who possessing the qualtities of virture and excellence). But, since you never propose arguments or explanations, preferring ad hominem name-calling, I guess I shouldn’t expect any clear explanation for any of your conclusions. 

A quick lesson in oxymorons: “Authoritarian Anarchy” or “Socialist Anarchy”. These are actual oxymorons employing the word Anarchy. The word Anarchy, by itself, is not an oxymoron.

You are quite right. Anarchy means roughly ‘without a government. (I would prefer for the sake of rigor to use the term state, but I submit to your usage as it is only a hypothetical for the sake of argument) Then an Anarchy would be ‘a government without a government. Hence it is an oxymoron.  Don’t try to weasel about the use of the article ‘an’ being trivial.  It’s not, it is probative.  If you were at all intellectually honest you would also recognize the substantive change in meaning between the present tense and future conditional and it’s centrality to my argument, which your subsequent remarks show you have completely failed to apprehend.  You certainly would not be so dismissive as to say it is a difference without distinction.  However your basic non-understanding of anarchist principles is an insignificant absence in the dark narcissistic ghetto of your consciousness, compared to your unquenchable neurotic obsession to attempt (vainly) to assert the supposed superiority of your parlor philosophy.  The probative evidence of which is that you are here, spewing crap. 

I drive an old Mazda hatchback.  I’ve owned a couple of Volvos, neither was a late model.  We hope to convert an old VW Golf and Toyota pick-up to bio-diesel soon. The only sticker on my car is a Greatful Dead thunderbolt-in- skull. I eat cheap ice cream from the local discount worker owned supermarket.  I don’t judge statements by the putative authority of their source, but by the cogency of the ideas they present.

I have no idea what kind of person you are, but from what you’ve posted here

“EXPECT RESISTANCE : the future is not yet written.”

I like that very much. Thanks.

Anarchy doesn’t mean “roughly” without government. It means precisely “without government or without authority”.  The terms State and Government are not necessarily interchangible.

“An Anarchy” would thuse be a society or a state without a government or authority to lead it. Just as a Monarchy is a state or society with a government led by a single authority, and a Democracy is (in principle at least) a society or state with a government led by the authority of the many. To say that “an anarchy” would mean a “government without a government”, and thus be a contradiction in terms, demonstrates your failure to grasp fundamental principles of language usage. By your definition the word “an” in the above phrase would itself be defined as meaning “government”.

Might I, in parting from this Chomsky-brainwashed Leftist cesspool, also suggest you change your name to Unilluminated Ugliness?

I like cogency too. But tangents are fun.

I like ice cream. But only the expensive Haagen-Dazs. So I eat it once in a blue moon.

I used to drive an old Mazda hatchback. Until it exploded. It was a good horse to it’s last day.

I used to drive a VW Rabbit. Had two in succession, one gas, one diesel. Good cars.

Now a Chev S10 pickup. No bumper stickers. Good truck. Gets me camping and fishing. When it goes to the junkyard in the sky I may consider walking .... or a motorcycle .... or an old 4 cylinder Jeep.

Depends on the imperialistic oil wars I guess.

LB -

“An anarchy” is not an oxymoron. “Archy anarchy” would be an oxymoron, but it is not seen often in everyday English.  I hope your luminous beauty is greater than your English comprehension. Otherwise you are guilty of false self-aggrandizement, an oxymoron, twice, instead of once.

EF....You are an uncommonly rash person, to be so rash and rush in so fast, to deny what another says is so, without even checking, is foolish.  rabbit finds you to be quite boring, you are not too bright and hardly worth the keystrokes.  All you do is say “No it isn’t” and call people names, well you are earning a few names for yourself.  As for feeling insane, Rabbit has wondered about his sanity from time to time, like all sane creatures. He feels pretty sane as it happens.

It would be pointless for Rabbit to ask the same of EF, since it is a well known fact that the truly insane never suspect they are, so how would you know.

You are certainly full of empty though when it comes to knowledge.

Rabbit just selects Random sources for facts, if you have a genuine grievance with a fact, and feel it is not adequately referenced in one source you have only to say and Rabbit will select more from the thousands that seem to be available on all these issues you question.  Do you think you have most of the knowledge in the world in your puny head?  Boy discussion for you is at about the level of the sort had with a Traffic cop, on a slow day.

The Polish thing, the beginning.  Stop being such a damned coward and read the details. If you can’t read what is given in answer to your challenge then who the hell do you think you are to come around here challenging others who do know what they are talking about?.

A sample for you EF.

The accounts of the barbarism that accompanied the expulsions of Sudeten Germans is well documented, and are contained and supported by 40,000 documents held at Koblenz Archives. These include names, dates and figures. As Dr. A.J App points out, these expulsions (and 241,000 murders) unlike the six million ‘gassed’ Jews allegations, are all backed by judicially acceptable documentation.

“Hot pitch was brushed on the bare backs of inmates before they were beat up. In Iglau, 1,200 Germans committed suicide; the rest, the old and the sick included, were whipped on to Tangen. 350 of them died on the way....”

Boy are you on the wrong track just denying things off the top of your wee head.

As for Anarcho-socialism, it is a valid political label and can be aplied to Rabbit too, you damned fool.

Tricky little site still, gotta watch those line breaks.

<a href=” http://tinyurl.com/9dbck">Polish thing,</a>

<a href=”http://tinyurl.com/9dbck">Polish thing,</a>

Anarcho-Sozi your observation about the shill, the agent, it is ineteresting.  Rabbit has definately got that impression too. Not necessarily this one, yet, but he has noticed there is always one, this site is not the only one to be infested, all important issues threads attract them of course.  It is interesting to lead one from one thread to another where such a person would never normally have found itself on that thread, but with “their” assigned issues, ever vigilant.

You can see a textbook case from the Radioactive Wounds of War thread, where one of the outed shills, actually does follow Rabbit from DU to 911 on the God Squad, just to stick with the assignment.  She’s still at it and getting desperate too. Snaky.

This is a good site for those who would like to research the Jewish Zionist influence in History

Ah HA a bad little extra = did it.

For the edification of any who need it and can use it.

Anarcho-socialism,

Anarcho-socialism: A term which broadly refers to anarchism (social) and anarchism (mutualist). Most anarcho-socialists deem the term redundant, however, and prefer to be called “anarchists,” not “anarcho-socialists.” This is because they believe that the only true anarchy is socialist, and the only true socialism is anarchic. However, it remains a useful term, because it distinguishes them from others who, right or wrong, also consider themselves anarchists and socialists: for example, anarcho-capitalists and social democrats. (See anarchy; anarcho-syndicalism; libertarianism (left); and socialism. Compare to anarcho-capitalism; libertarianism (right) and social democracy.)

Aint the internet a wonderful thing?  Allows fools to be put in their place so quickly and easily......Allows for such ordered debate, even if the fools carp on, they cannot take back anything they say, none of us can.  Who will live to regret their words most?

scorp:

False self-aggrandizement would be a redundancy, I believe.  Most particularly in your case.

I’ll be clearer; (I was writing last night straining to keep my eyes open to watch the WS.  You now have my full attention.

An Anarchy would be a Stateless State.  Paradox = oxymoron.  If i only had a brain.

The most general difference between anarchists and socialists is that socialists are more concerned with ends, while anarchists are focused on the means.  In a practical sense.  Theoretically they are more similar.

The form of governance anarchists live by is called syndicalism. Consensual agreements based on Mutual Aid.

article
(grammar) a word, a type of determiner, that specifies or limits the following noun. (a, an, or the in English).

the articles a and an specify the kind of object to which the noun refers.  In this case the root of the determinate noun, or invariant object, -archy or rule.  The prefix an- is an additional determiner of the root. What kind of rule? a rule without rule. An explicit contradiction.

A non-paradoxical example is the indeterminate and variable noun:  an imbalance.  What kind of balance? A non-balanced balance.  Not a contradiction in terms.  A scale or balance can easily be out of balance.

This is but a restatement of the classic oxymoron:  The only rule in a knife fight is, there are no rules. It applies directly to debating trolls on the internet.

I see the comment up the thread about Prescott Bush having been involved with Nazi industry before WW2.... I wonder how many people fond of using that to imply that the sins of the father and grandfather fall on the son and grandson remember that there was another famous American political patriarch with close ties to Nazi Germany:  Joseph Kennedy, father of President John F. Kennedy and would be Presidents Robert and Ted Kennedy.

“Scorpy can you give us a single one of the 14 which doesn’t also apply to the present US government?.  You are once again shooting your foot off, it has before been pointed out you are in the same league as those others you mention.”

Most of them don’t apply, unless you are a blind leftwing ideologue.

Reynardine:

Don’t forget William Randolph Hearst, Charles Lindbergh, John Rockefeller, Andrew Mellon, DuPont, General Motors, Standard Oil (now Exxon), Ford, Chrysler, ITT, Allen Dulles, National City Bank, and General Electric.

And don’t forget who from the US was fighting Fascism in Spain.

Which side are you on, brothers?  Which side are you on?  Wasn’t that a time, brothers?  Wasn’t that a time?

I suppose it’s already crossed your minds with sickly twinge, but it is also fair to remember who was selling Saddam Hussein the raw materials and technology for his WMD’s in the 80’s and who was calling him a bloodthirsty tyrant.

Boy, us blind leftie ideologs can see parallels in just about anything, can’t we?  It must be just our fevered, hysterical imaginations, I suppose.  It couldn’t be because we know how to think reflectively with evidence, logic and reason, could it? Noooooooooooo......We must be hallooooooocinating.  You guys are entertaining, but nobody here is buying what you’re selling.  Better try a new tack.

Houston just went down in 4 with two amazing defensive sparklers from Juan Uribe of the World Champion Chicago White Sox.  Shoeless Joe Jackson for the Hall!!!

It’s gonna be a dismal day in the big T tomarra with indictments comin’ down aroun’ the ol’ fav’rite son an’ all.  Shee-it.

Chopper that wasn’t an answer to any of the 14, so go blow yourself. You have as yet oferred nothing in refutation of any of them, for the record.

Reynardine
Your presumption about what others on this site would know about is uncalled for and as it happens would be quite wrong.

We all know what a*seholes the Kennedy’s are, and as for the sins of the father, if only...............

The indigtments, which The Conservative Voice, was whistling in the dark about on wednesday.....See them cringing in fear.

Today is Friday (here) today is the day eh?

Too bad it is only a battle, the war has hardly begun, but some ignominious falls will be good for morale, anyway. Ours anyway.

When the Mountain Man returns from slumber after seeing the gladiatorial sport of men fighting over a ball, he might want to see this, it is Cold Water but should be remembered in light of the wider view.

Hot Air

trust Alex and crew to be the spoilsports, so conservative, always Prison Planet is conservative. Like the grown ups amongst us, kids on a beach looking for tresure, truth seekers.

Got it, Fundys, Jones is a conservative by Rabbit’s estimate, an intelligent and honest conservative.  Moon Bat bait

We haven’t seen any moonbats lately, pretty Moonbats.

Blue and flappy in the black sky.
Moonbats happy with their lie pie.

Wasn’t someone attacking
Noam Chomsky here a while back?

”Best known for his contributions to the study of linguistics through his theory of generative grammar, this Professor Emeritus of Linguistics at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology has been the most intelligent, vehement critic of the US government during the current and the preceding centuries. Consistently writing (and speaking publicly) in a calm, thoughtful manner, for years Professor Chomsky charged America’s ruling establishment and its obedient press corps with some of the most heinous crimes against humanity one could imagine. His political activism has spanned decades while his impressive list of books assailing the US government has continued to grow. His perception, insight, and presentation of evidence to support his dissidence are without equal. And activism is his “hobby”. I feel assured that there are many amongst America’s ruling elite who count their blessings that Dr. Chomsky has focused so much of his attention on his linguistics studies.

A Dead Civilian a Day Keeps the Terrorists at Bay?

“The new doctrine was not one of preemptive war, which arguably falls within some stretched interpretation of the UN Charter, but rather a doctrine that doesn’t begin to have any grounds in international law, namely, preventive war. That is, the United States will rule the world by force, and if there is any challenge to its domination---whether it is perceived in the distance, invented, imagined, or whatever--then the United States will have the right to destroy that challenge before it becomes a threat. That’s preventive war, not preemptive war.”

Chomsky goes on to dissect the manner in which the Bush regime has implemented its doctrine of preventive war and “normalized it”. By virtue of its sheer might and through the masterful propaganda which convinced its citizenry that invading Iraq was necessary to defend the “homeland, the United States has established such a war of aggression as “acceptable behavior” for a legitimate government. Essentially, Chomsky concludes that the Bush administration, its collaborating wealthy elite and its supportive corporate leviathans imposed their will to expand the American Empire through instilling the fear in other nations that they could be in the cross-hairs of an incredibly powerful military, and by shamelessly telling unprecedented lies to the American people.

As a result, Chomsky asserts, “George Bush has succeeded within a year in converting the United States to a country that is greatly feared, disliked, and even hated.”

Sorry Rabbit, but I disagree about
beisbol being a gladiatorial sport.

It’s a real sign of progress that the wing-nuts are attacking Chomsky after years and years of totally ignoring him.  As famous as he is (for a scholar) internationally, he’s long been a virtual non-entity in his own country.  It’s undoubtedly news to most US citizens that there even exists a field of scientific enquiry called Cognitive Science much less the central role Chomsky has played in it’s development.

I liked this line in the Rense article: “Again the kindest thing you can say about Reagan is that he probably didn’t know what he was saying.”.  That goes in spades for our resident trolls.

Reynardine:

My mention of Prescott Bush had nothing to do with the “sins of the father and grandfather”. It was offered merely as an example of the (well-known outside of dumbed-down America) fact that capital knows no morals (or national boundaries) but only profit.

Why do you throw the Kennedys at me? Of course they are no different, just as Republicans and Democrats are no different from each other. That’s the point!

By the way, P. Bush was not doing business with the Nazis merely *before* WW2 but also during (even after America’s entry - how stupid of me to mention this, though. Most Americans probably think the war started on 7 Dec. 1941 - at least those few Americans who even know there was a WW2...). As I recall, he was tried and even convicted for “aiding and abetting the enemy”.

A more topical example of Bush family financial dealings would have been their connection to the house of Saud and the bin Laden family…

“How could this horror have seized a nation and corrupted so much of Europe?” you ask.

For the same reason that you make no mention of Islamic terror, aggression, and fanaticism: you are wilfully blind to this new danger that is equivalent to Nazism, because it doesn’t fit your preconceptions.

It is much more comfortable to ponder the European decadence of 70 years ago than to look at today’s Eurabia, isn’t it?

OK, rdar,

Let’s look at Islamic terrorism.  Are there any Islamic terrorists poised to take over the US Government from within?  Are they in any position to even attain power in a single Islamic country?  Do you believe the war in Iraq has done anything but increase the danger of terrorism by driving the Iraqi people to fear and anger and vengefulness by our bloody occupation?  How do you think W will function after his brainectomy?

Please tell me, what are the intellectual antecedents to your peculiar world-view?  And tell me more about Eurabia, it sounds fascinating, even phantasmagoric.  If it includes Europe’s imminent collapse under the weight of its Socialist Nanny-State and plummeting white population, don’t bother, I’ve heard it.

What’s the matter rdar, cat got your tongue.

HERE is a little info on ‘IslamoFascist terrorism you might want to wrap your o-so-un-preconcieved mind around.  Read it, footnotes & all, and let’s chat.

Hmm, rather a reactionary song, David in Canada.

And there aren’t any Russians coming to get us - we bankrupted them years ago,and let their mob take over what was left.

Jay Cline - your points on page one are particularly nonsensical, considering who the “oil-rich Muslim country” is friends with… your very own POTUS!

Hi, Anarcho-Sozi!  Meet the other worthwhile perosn on his board - me - your very own original Liz - contributor!!

EmitFlesti is just trying to smash anarchists and socialists and all the Left apart, because he well knows we have several schools of thought.  He’d rather lump the anarchists in with the libertarians.  and stupid Randists.

I tell you what *I* think.  The left should have patched up its differences years ago.  Let’s do so NOW and then go and smash the Right!!  The REAL task of today!

Liz - the other socialist on this board with a twist of anarchism!

oops, sorry Rabbit, didn’t read that - didn’t know you too were one of the band!

Brill link to home.att.net.  Thanks, Rabbit!!

JFK was rather sweet, though, wasn’t he, Ghost Rabbit?  He and Robert were at least dishy.

As for comparisons - well it all DOES go by degree!

A thing which keeps going round and round my head like mad (before you ask, I’m not a Trotskyist: I can’t really be, because I believe in the supernatural!) is a little excerpt from an article published quite a while ago on the World Socialist Web site, comparing J F K’s speeches, which were said to be eloquent and idealistic compared to today’s “political pig grunts” (how I loved that phrase!) from George W. Bush.

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2003/nov2003/jfk-n22.shtml

“Political pig grunts”!  how I revel in that phrase… it appears about half-way down.

...anyway, John did die… that’s enough to cover up a multitude of sins I would say!

Oooh, anyway, another small theory: should be interesting to rabbit and luminous beauty.  I believe that the two dead Kennedys rebelled against their right-wing father (and his set.) Sons sometimes do: take it from me, it’s a Freudian thing, as in “Totem and Taboo”....

They slay the father: they don’t always however make of him a totem… sometimes they really rebel, I think, which means not to propagate his views....

I think it was some of those Old White Men who struck back, no?

Greetings Liz

and welcome to this hmm… how should it be characterised?  group! (I, too, am new here...)

Many thanks for your link to wsws. Sometimes it is indeed worthwhile to reflect on some of the (minor) differences within the ruling elite. Yes, there is most definitely a qualitative difference between much of what Kennedy said in his speeches and the political pig grunts of W.

Nice to have another non-dumbed-down Ami here (your language gives you away. My guess: UK, IRE, NZ, OZ, SA...) (no offence intended as regards Luminous Beauty, Major Major, and a select group of others!)

Hi Liz

Yes a reactionary song. From a long ways back. But the Russian still have nukes my dear. They may not have to use them though.

America is mostly bankrupt too. Morally and otherwise

America seems to ready to self destruct.

I hope they don’t.

I happen to live next door.

UK, mein lieber Ossi!  (I mean Anarcho-Sozi)

Aus welcher Stadt stammen Sie?  Darf ich bitte fragen?

Rabbit- The 14 points
1. Rampant & Continuing Nationalism- I actually see relatively few flags, and none of the people I know actually wear flags or display them on their vehicles, including the political conservatives I know.

2. Identification of enemies/scapegoats.  Bush has gone out of his way to state we have no quarrel with Islam itself.  He has identified terrorists as enemies, perhaps understandable in that they actually have attacked us.  There is a Muslim Mosque that openly operates in the city I live in, & I live in a city in a fairly conservative area.

3. Supremacy of the military.  The US has no draft, no military dictatorship, and the bulk of our budget does not go to the military.  If this is military supremacy they are doing a pretty poor job of it.

4. Rampant sexism.  In practice we have abortion on demand.  Gays are not prosecuted for homosexual activity.  Again, all these sexists aren’t much on the ball, are they?

5. Controlled mass media.  With major media outlets such as the New York Times and Washington Post which regularly criticize Bush & his administration (often in very harsh terms), if it is controlled then the controllers are asleep at the switch.

6. Corporate power.  As a branch manager in a small company, I regularly get newsletters that illustrate practices that would get us into legal trouble for unfair employment procedures.  Again, if there is a lot of corporate power those exercising it aren’t doing their jobs very well.

7. Labor power.  There is no government effort to destroy unions.  They have made themselves increasingly irrelevant to large sections of the workforce.

8. Disdain for intellectuals and the arts. Intellectuals are in no way muzzled.  In fact they are often quoted at length or aired by major media outlets.  Do you mean that not everyone bows to their obvious (in their minds) intellectual superiority?  That some of us don’t actually take such absurd figures as Ward Churchill seriously?  In that case you are correct.  William Buckley (himself an intellectual, although a conservative one) once famously said he’d rather be governed by the first 3,000 names in the Boston phone directory than by the faculty of Yale.  There was a lot of wisdom in that statement.

9. Obsession with crime and punishment.  I haven’t noticed a lot of this obsession in the media lately.  Guliani was effective in reducing the crime rate in New York with innovative policing techniques.  Was this a bad thing?

10. Fradulent elections.  Charged by leftwing partisans in the 2000 election.  Not generally given much credence by impartial observers.

Well Rabbit, that is it for starters.  I believe you don’t actually live in the US, so you probably don’t know what you are writing about.  And by the way, go blow yourself.

Hooray for Liz.........................Hello LIZ..........Excited Rabbit is to see you.  Will you stay awhile?

Coming right up Chopper, and as for not living in the USA, you can believe it.  As it happens Rabbit has a lot of American friends, spends a lot of time on the internet, and reads a great deal.  Rabbit also has the inestimable advantage, as has been noted by others, of being suffiently removed from things in America that it affords a more objective viewpoint.  If Rabbit gets anything majorly wrong about the USA, then he has many good friends who would have told him about it by now, so if it comes down to Rabbit and you disagreeing about something, the “foreigner” argument won’t fly, let us get that much straight.  And to anticipate the other side of thise forged coin, the USA became other country’s business when they made other countries their business.

You have been brave to attempt the list and rabbit shall ‘reward’ your efforts.

............................

1. Rampant & Continuing Nationalism- I actually see relatively few flags, and none of the people I know actually wear flags or display them on their vehicles, including the political conservatives I know.

What is relatively few?  You are living inside your bubble and have no reference with which to make comparisons on this or indeed several of the claims such as this which are based on an objective analysis.  Rabbit see’s one Aussie flag on average per day, which is because on his way to work he ‘usually’ drives past a particular house who has a flag pole.  That is as many as most Aussies would see. In Denmark, where Rabbit lived for five years, there are flags everywhere and the Danes have a healthy amount of National pride, but it is nothing compared to American Nationalism which is itself a phenomenon being observed and commented upon by the world at large, at every imaginable level of intercourse.  Not a chumps chance, 1. is a certainty.

2. Identification of enemies/scapegoats.  Bush has gone out of his way to state we have no quarrel with Islam itself.  He has identified terrorists as enemies, perhaps understandable in that they actually have attacked us.  There is a Muslim Mosque that openly operates in the city I live in, & I live in a city in a fairly conservative area.

“No quarrel”?  You are at war and threatening more war against Muslim nations, you support the most vicious little terrorist state in the Middle East with all it’s threats and nastiness and you threaten their elected leaders, threaten and actually launch military attacks oon any Muslim Nation at the drop of a hat, and accuse them of everything that goes bang in the night, You are invading and have been destabilising the Middle east for decades and it is reaching a crescendo at this moment and you say Bush says you have no quarrel with Islam.  Yes mate sure.  Well Islam has now got a quarrel with you, and calling them terrorists is not going to cut it anymore, they are defending what is theirs on their home soil.  You are attacking them inside thjeir bordeers and heh WAKE UP Chopper, Iraq had nothing to do with any terrorism, or attacks on the USA.  There is NO proof that Muslim Fundamentalists alone caused 911. There is a HUGE and growing body of evidence which much more clearly PROVES US government complicity in 911. Not even half of Americans believe the official theory, and those of us who are informed KNOW it is all lies.  So you are indeed finding scapegoats.  Yoiu have killed upwards of a couple of hundred thousand Muslims so far, who had nothing to do with 911, and yet you dare to raise 911 as a justification?  You are a louse, boy are you a louse.  So there is a Muslim Mosque near you, BIG DEAL does that somehow prove that you or Americans are espceially tolerant does it?  Well there is one down the road from me too, and most Australians are about as intolerant and ignorant about others as Americans, so no, not that or the Budhist temple on the other end of that road makes for Aussies being more tolerant in general, why shopuld it mean more in America?  For you information there are and have always been Christian Churches and Jewish Synagogues in most Islamic countries to.,.  Muslims don’t even hate Jews, or Christians but you would not know that.  The only people who have a religious dimension to their beliefs about the causes of conflict are those from the Judeo Christian side.  The Muslims just want Israel to stop abusing the Pallestinians. Some more extreme Muslims would like Israel out of the Middle East and if you knew enough history we could discuss that. But you do not, so we won’t. The extremists no sooner make decisions in the Middle East than they do in the USA.  Except where those extremists are propped up by the USA.

How many potentially Muslim Bombs have been blown up in the USA............Chopper?

How many bombs and much of them Dirty Bombs at that, has the USA dropped on Muslim Nations?  You can even pretend all the terrorist attacks in America were Muslims if you want, even though probably none of them were.

2. would have to be said to be carried.  You set up Libya to take the fall for Lockerbie, more scapegoats.  Now that one has come undone too.  Nope 2. is still looking good Chop.

3. Supremacy of the military.  The US has no draft, no military dictatorship, and the bulk of our budget does not go to the military.  If this is military supremacy they are doing a pretty poor job of it.

Let us keep it simple, The US Military Budget for 2005 $420.7 billion.

“ The US military budget is almost as much as the rest of the world’s.

The US military budget is more than 8 times larger than the Chinese budget, the second largest spender.

The US military budget is more than 29 times as large as the combined spending of the seven “rogue” states (Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, Sudan and Syria) who spent $14.4 billion.

It is more than the combined spending of the next twenty three nations.

The United States and its close allies account for some two thirds to three-quarters of all military spending, depending on who you count as close allies (typically NATO countries, Australia, Canada, Israel, Japan and South Korea)

The seven potential “enemies,” Russia, and China together spend $116.2 billion, 27.6% of the U.S. military budget.”

4. Rampant sexism.  In practice we have abortion on demand.  Gays are not prosecuted for homosexual activity.  Again, all these sexists aren’t much on the ball, are they?

This only says that you are a male, and in denial.  What is that old favorite which sells every product under the sun?  Begins with an ‘S’, could it be SEX?  You are inside the bubble Chopper, so maybe don’t get this one either, but the rest of us will chuckle at your expense.  hee hee

5. Controlled mass media.  With major media outlets such as the New York Times and Washington Post which regularly criticize Bush & his administration (often in very harsh terms), if it is controlled then the controllers are asleep at the switch

Chopper you have just named two rags which are known by all and sundry to be amongst the most devoted lapdogs as far as propaganda for the admin goes.  Does the Name Miller mean anything to you?  How the hell did the LIES which led to the illegal attack on Iraq ever get swallowed so completely by the US press when the questioins were being asked everywhere else in the world?  Ever heard of the Downing Street Memo’s?  Probably you think you heard about them, but the MSM in the USA is YET to actually report them and the significance of them truthfully and they went months before even mentioning their existence let alone what was in them.  To say nothing of the fact of your total and complete state of delusion compared with informed Americans, or others, you are a living example of the bias in your press, look at you, ignorant as a rock.  Those others and the informed Americans did not get their information from the main stream American press. Any important world issue you care to name Rabbit will find foreign reports which tell far more of the story and put things in a very different light to what you see.  The American media and by association ours and the Brits too, have become propaganda tools for the establishment. 

“Often in very harsh terms” in whose opinion?  If they called for his immediate arrest for crimes against the state and against humanity, it would not be too harsh you clown.  Don’t call Rabbit an extremist either, he is fairly level about it. Put him on trial, bring out the evidence and then hang the bastard.  Now where in America do you read things like that, in the MSM?
Here is an who
says it well.  American

6. Corporate power.  As a branch manager in a small company, I regularly get newsletters that illustrate practices that would get us into legal trouble for unfair employment procedures.  Again, if there is a lot of corporate power those exercising it aren’t doing their jobs very well.

Rabbit has some OSH qualifications and came across USA as an example and let me assure you, you have a system of OSH which considered an example of the wrong way to do things, Corporate power is not evident inthe laws, which are are prescriptive and made by government. The result however with a government dominated by corporations is a sysetm which is completely useless in regards protecting the health and people, workers customers and bystanders.  the system of allowing the industry to self regulate based upon legislation as we and England has it, puts the brakes on things at least a bit.  This is a personal example and need not be gone into.  The fact is that wages and conditions for workers on the mid to lower end of scale are worsening. The environment is given no consideration as a consequence of corporate power and if you try and argue this, I expect others will come out of the woodwork to demolish this one

7. Labor power.  There is no government effort to destroy unions.  They have made themselves increasingly irrelevant to large sections of the workforce.

The government destroys unions here as there, mostly by not protecting them.  We are now entering into a new phase of workplace relations being put into place by out little facsist government
under Johnny Howhard. The new laws are painted as being good news, with the use of ten million dollars of our money to tell us.  Almost everybody doesn’t want them, we have at least three quarters of the country saying no way, but we got thjem anyway.  Our unions are now finished.  In a couple of years boneheads like you will be saying the government didn’t shut down the unions they became irelevant.. They sure did, because the Government has legislated them out of existence.  The reason you are losing so many jobs overseas you goose is because you don’t have an organised workforce to protect its own interests.  Rabbit is self employed and almost always has been. Rabbit has driven his car through union picket lines to do his job, and rcognises some shit-stirrers among the unionists ranks.  But they are no less a balance to the greed and lack of compassion of corporations and some employers.

Irrelevant to a workforce which is copping it in the head everytime prices rise?  Irrelevant to a workforce which is losing jobs especially skilled jobs to cheaper overseas markets?  Irrelevant to a workforce with the conditions currently being enjopyed by low income workers.  If you have not heard them complaining, as you are bound to say, then maybe you are not listening. 

---------------------------------------------------
Here are some more scapegoats by the way.

Galloway

Syria

Lovely Liz,

Rabbit has read far enough down to see you had seen him here amongst the grass, and he is happy too you noticed he is an Anarcho-Socialist, he has called himself this about as long as he has realised he is an Agnostic Rabbit.  Some things are so easy to understand once you read them, because they are.

Rabbit could easily accomodate your theory about the Kennedys. Some things about Kennedy have given me pause to wonder along similar lines.  If as we many do accept that there was establishment involved(CIA>>>MAFIA), then it seems likely that they were considered a threat to somebody.  It wasn’t any lone nut either, though Rabbit doesn’t tend to have much doubts about Lennon’s murderer having being a fried egg.  he was classic, looney tune. The others were classic assasinations.

Does Liz know about reptiles?  Since Liz spiritual she may know what Rabbit means.  If so just nod, we don’t want to attract “Moonbats”.  Wasn’t it Liz and rabbit who enjoyed Moonbats together once?  Rabbit only mentioned this a couple of days ago to Kuya.

Rabbit does some more Chopping..............

8. Disdain for intellectuals and the arts. Intellectuals are in no way muzzled.  In fact they are often quoted at length or aired by major media outlets.  Do you mean that not everyone bows to their obvious (in their minds) intellectual superiority?  That some of us don’t actually take such absurd figures as Ward Churchill seriously?  In that case you are correct.  William Buckley (himself an intellectual, although a conservative one) once famously said he’d rather be governed by the first 3,000 names in the Boston phone directory than by the faculty of Yale.  There was a lot of wisdom in that statement.

Rabbit ignores all this as being twaddle, A few names dropped which mean nothing to Rabbit but the format suggests he is trying to sound intellectual. Rabbit would prefer to refer the matter of American Intellectualism and the arts, to his “foreign” compadres......... shared snigger..........and use just ONE single American treatment of one of the classics of modern Satire, which even the BBC was able to turn into a Classic film with a few thousand dollars.  This is in itself enough to seal the case for the dearth of intellectual depth to the American Psyche.  Actually Rabbit will also mention Jerry Springer, and seinfeld whilst he is at it.  we are not talking exceptions here.  There are exceptionally intelligent and insightful people on this page, by meausre with whom I am but a humble Rabbit.  Many of them are exceptions and will know themselves of course. They will also know exactly what Rabbit means when he says this.  There are exceptions in Australia too, but in general we are an apathetic bloody race.  The example of the arts and American Intellectual comprehension? 

Hitchhikers Guide To The Galaxy

Case closed.  8 is home and hosed. 

By the way does quoting Intellectuals at length make one an Intellectual?

9. Obsession with crime and punishment.  I haven’t noticed a lot of this obsession in the media lately.  Guliani was effective in reducing the crime rate in New York with innovative policing techniques.  Was this a bad thing?

Huh Hem.............  What is every secoind TV show about in the USA?  We should know, we get them on our TVs too.  CRIME and PUNISHMENT What the hell has what is printed in the Propaganda depertament got to do with the culture?  Giuliani is a crook himself. The point is you are as a nation obsessed with it and this one also is absolutely a Slam Dunk. 

Is that the right Baseball term Luminous Beauty?  ..............................^^...........................................
OK................Just kidding, Rabbit didn’t know what kind of ball sport was represented in your earlier post and has not been able to reply since because he was blocked from posting for two days, as you know.  Rabbit has a son who plays Aussie Rules Football (9yrs) and he is keen. It is a bit like American football, but they don’t wear padded bras and helmets.  Rabbit thinks Cricket is the most stupid and boring thing which humans ever found to do with a ball and a few sticks. 

Baseball actually appeals a bit to Rabbit since wacking the ball with a really good stick and then running around in circles afterwards is something a Rabbit can reallly get into.

Would people like to see Rabbit change into Ultra Rabbit?  He is sick of being a Ghost, it was only ever meant to be temporary, and he wishes to return, as a live Rabbit?  Having taken the necessary steps with the recent Shill attack, to do this, Rabbit could do this.  It distresses Rabbit to be called a Ghost, really.

Chop Chop Chop

Rabbit with his little axe, reaches number 10

10. Fradulent elections.  Charged by leftwing partisans in the 2000 election.  Not generally given much credence by impartial observers

This deserves to be refuted in totality. Don’t go selling your ass and then denying you sold it.  The Impartial Observers who were hindered in Observing the US elections as it happens, DID not give either election the thumbs up and nor have many other impartial observers and Americans too.

The [url="http://tinyurl.com/dzyzv" ]2004
election[/url] was widely criticised and as you will see from pushing the >Blue Button< it is now emerging that it is even officially well on the way to being called SHONKY.  See the GAO report and Blow Chopper Blow.

Don’t you hate it when the news catches up and overtakes your illusions?

10 down and four to go, maybe you just want to accept the last four out of hand? Most do.

Hallo Liz

Ja, ich bin ein alter Ossi, wie er leibt und lebt - ursprünglich aus der Berliner Gegend, aber ich lebe nun seit Jahren in Vorpommern an der schönen Ostseeküste.
Und du? Wo kommst du her? Das Vereinigte Königreich Großbritannien und Nordirland ist groooooooooooß…

Yes, Rabbit, definitely!

Take off the kid gloves and show us your true self. We don’t want any ghosts here. Be the Vollblutkarnickelbock you really are!

One bourbon, one scotch, and one beer.

Last call for comments on :

Radioactive Wounds of War.

This thread is being shut down soon. Comment while you still can.

The link is to the second last page (for now) to allow for some context to recent developments.

That thread ...

Radioactive Wounds of War

... not this thread where you are now.

“It’s a real sign of progress that the wing-nuts are attacking Chomsky after years and years of totally ignoring him.  As famous as he is (for a scholar) internationally, he’s long been a virtual non-entity in his own country.  It’s undoubtedly news to most US citizens that there even exists a field of scientific enquiry called Cognitive Science much less the central role Chomsky has played in it’s development.

I liked this line in the Rense article: “Again the kindest thing you can say about Reagan is that he probably didn’t know what he was saying.”.  That goes in spades for our resident trolls.”

I heard of Chomsky years ago, and saw him interviewed in the MSM.  I’ve heard this charge before.  I don’t buy it.

The two people most responsible for bringing the Cold war to a successful end are Reagan and John Paul II.  I guess this doesn’t count for Rense.

“What is relatively few?  You are living inside your bubble and have no reference with which to make comparisons on this or indeed several of the claims such as this which are based on an objective analysis.  Rabbit see’s one Aussie flag on average per day, which is because on his way to work he ‘usually’ drives past a particular house who has a flag pole.  That is as many as most Aussies would see. In Denmark, where Rabbit lived for five years, there are flags everywhere and the Danes have a healthy amount of National pride, but it is nothing compared to American Nationalism which is itself a phenomenon being observed and commented upon by the world at large, at every imaginable level of intercourse.  Not a chumps chance, 1. is a certainty.”

Rabbit, about the most charitable thing I can say about this is that it is nonsense.  If you are going by number of flags we aren’t much above the Aussie level.  What is the “world at large”?  Typical European psuedo-intellectual crap?

“There is a HUGE and growing body of evidence which much more clearly PROVES US government complicity in 911. Not even half of Americans believe the official theory, and those of us who are informed KNOW it is all lies”

Let’s see Rabbit, I’ll bet you also know that OJ didn’t kill Nicole (must have been those Columbian drug dealers OJ promised to find), the moon landings were a hoax, Lee Harvey Oswald was a CIA agent, the man kept in Spandau as Rudolph Hess was really an imposter, the US government has alien bodies at area 51, Alger Hiss was innocent, and Napoleon took his orders from the Illuminati.  I was going to do a more detailed answer to your post, some of which is somewhat plausible, but this is straight out of the fever-swamps of far left paranoia.  Do you really believe this crap or is it just fashionable Euro-bashing of the US?

“you say Bush says you have no quarrel with Islam.”

Now your confusing Bush with me.  Get a grip.

Let us keep it simple, The US Military Budget for 2005 $420.7 billion.

“ The US military budget is almost as much as the rest of the world’s.

The US military budget is more than 8 times larger than the Chinese budget, the second largest spender.

The US military budget is more than 29 times as large as the combined spending of the seven “rogue” states (Cuba, Iran, Iraq, Libya, North Korea, Sudan and Syria) who spent $14.4 billion.

“It is more than the combined spending of the next twenty three nations.

The United States and its close allies account for some two thirds to three-quarters of all military spending, depending on who you count as close allies (typically NATO countries, Australia, Canada, Israel, Japan and South Korea)

The seven potential “enemies,” Russia, and China together spend $116.2 billion, 27.6% of the U.S. military budget.””

This says absolutely nothing about whether we live in a militaristic society or not.  Many congressmen look at military spending as a chance for pork.  I would agree that much is mis-spent, and should be redirected.  But there is less to your point than meets the eye.

“This only says that you are a male, and in denial.  What is that old favorite which sells every product under the sun?  Begins with an ‘S’, could it be SEX?  You are inside the bubble Chopper, so maybe don’t get this one either, but the rest of us will chuckle at your expense.  hee hee “

This post says more about you than it does about me.  When you can point to actual examples of homosexuals being persecuted by the government then I’ll take your post seriously.  The above is just crap.

““Often in very harsh terms” in whose opinion?  If they called for his immediate arrest for crimes against the state and against humanity, it would not be too harsh you clown.  Don’t call Rabbit an extremist either, he is fairly level about it.”

Ok, you’re not an extremist.  You’re delusional.

“Ever heard of the Downing Street Memo’s?”

In a word, yes.  However, you are still delusional.

“Rabbit ignores all this as being twaddle, A few names dropped which mean nothing to Rabbit but the format suggests he is trying to sound intellectual. Rabbit would prefer to refer the matter of American Intellectualism and the arts, to his “foreign” compadres......... shared snigger..........and use just ONE single American treatment of one of the classics of modern Satire, which even the BBC was able to turn into a Classic film with a few thousand dollars.  This is in itself enough to seal the case for the dearth of intellectual depth to the American Psyche.  Actually Rabbit will also mention Jerry Springer, and seinfeld whilst he is at it.  we are not talking exceptions here.  There are exceptionally intelligent and insightful people on this page, by meausre with whom I am but a humble Rabbit.  Many of them are exceptions and will know themselves of course. They will also know exactly what Rabbit means when he says this.  There are exceptions in Australia too, but in general we are an apathetic bloody race.  The example of the arts and American Intellectual comprehension?”

In any population popular (and even vulgar) entertainment is going to outweigh intellectual pursuits.  The above is just more of Rabbit’s crap.

“10 down and four to go, maybe you just want to accept the last four out of hand? Most do.”

No, I just haven’t gotten to them yet.  This whole list is carefully designed to put a leftwing spin on a view of facism.  It leaves out some essential features of facism, such as extensive control of the economy, and includes some others that are marginal or just off-base.  Facism historically was pretty secular.  Mussolini was a socialist, and never really abandoned socialism.

None of this changes the fact that you’re delusional, however.

The two people who were most successful in bringing the cold war to a close were Osama Bin Laden, and Michel Gorbachev.  Despite Reagan.

“The two people who were most successful in bringing the cold war to a close were Osama Bin Laden, and Michel Gorbachev.  Despite Reagan.”

Further evidence that Rabbit is delusional.

Jeez Chopper you are not much of a fish, more of a dud than anything.

“you say Bush says you have no quarrel with Islam.”

Now your confusing Bush with me.  Get a grip.

You see this is also a quote from you:

.

2.  Identification of enemies/scapegoats.  Bush has gone out of his way to state we have no quarrel with Islam itself.  He has identified terrorists as enemies, perhaps understandable in that they actually have attacked us.  There is a Muslim Mosque that openly operates in the city I live in, & I live in a city in a fairly conservative area.

Maybe you are confusing Bush with you?

As for the first two you were already ruled out of the judges panel due to subjective bias, remember.  If one other person (except Scorpy or Jay) agrees with either of these contentions, 1 and 2, then Rabbit will award the point for free.

As for the militaristic society, you are obviously so shocked by those figures yourself that you almost threw in the towell on that one, now admit it.  Or don’t, we can read and see your reaction for ourtselves.

When you can point to actual examples of homosexuals being persecuted by the government then I’ll take your post seriously.

Well Rabbit cannot oblige you here.  He has never seen any need to raise the issue of homosexuality on this thread. Not the first time you raised it nor this one.  So if this is the weird and wonderful test of integrity you have set the Rabbit, perhaps he must accept he will lack integrity with such an one as Chopper.  Actually Rabbit is sure that Homosexuality, especially the ugly dominant kind is quite common practice among the government heirarchy, and the history will show that issues such as Jeff Gannon etc will lead to a better understanding of what this is all about.

Rabbit will allow that The Government of the USA is particularly generous towrds Homosexuality, and even could be said to be “In Bed” with the issue.

Rabbit is neither extremist nor delusional, but the patient is hardly likely to recognise this fact.  The New York Times in particular was practically a government mouth piece in spreading Administration Lies against the world opinion, and has been caught red-handed, and Chopper would tell us the New York Times is an example of a media which is antipatehetcial to the US admin.  How about you mentioned some other media sources like some of those who are posted as sources here, as being real examples of American freedom of speech? Albeit it in it’s self proclaimed dying gasps. 

Rabbit could have won this point on behalf of America, but Chopper failed to clear the starting gate.  Let’s face it, you have not got a snowball’s, but you are also trhe wrong horse for the race.

The “Downing Street Memos”, proved Bush and the government of the USA comitted fraud to create a case to go to war against a sovereign Nation who was no threat to the USA or anybody as it happens.  They were ignored by the American Media and are to this day.  If you know anything significant about the subject then you cannot claim the MSM, is the source.  End of point Rabbit is still 100% in front. 

You are really faltering a bit at the end and Rabbit would have thought the number nine deserved at least a mention.  You were so proud of number nine when you first began to dance.  Now you pretend it never was. the elctions weres tolen and the fact escaped your notice, once again.  Easy to see how it happened really is it not?

Delusional Rabbit will sit here in the grass, waiting for Clever Chopper, to reapear with more funny tricks. In the meantime he confidently claims 10 for 10 victory over the 14 points war.

Chopper is an egghead.  Chopper is one of these limited Trolls. A self destruct Troll who crashes and burns too early to really allow for a serious demoliton.  Kind of like shooting fish in a barrel, lucky it is such a dumb arse fish that nobody could feel sorry for it. 

Wack wack ....................wack

How exactly could Ronald Mc Donald, oops sorry, Rabbit meant Ronald Reagan, be given credit for ending the cold war?
Exactly how?  As Rabbit recalls Reagan was busy setting up an inpossible dream at the time “star wars” and various other atrocities were being carried out in anticipation of many more decades of war.  The USSR, led by Gorbachev, shocked the world with it’s own internal collapse, and History shows it was bled to death by it’s military, especially the sharp drain on morale and economy represented by the WAR in Afghanistan.  That is not delusional Chopper, it is history and an entire internet and literary history stand as testimony.  So have a go at another this one is gone for you brother, gone for good.

While we are at it can anybody predict what history might be saying about the demise of the USA in a decade from now?

“As for the militaristic society, you are obviously so shocked by those figures yourself that you almost threw in the towell on that one, now admit it.  Or don’t, we can read and see your reaction for ourtselves.”

I already knew the figures Rabbit.  Another way to look at them is that as a percentage of GNP they are lower than what we spent on defense just before the Pearl Harbor attack.  In themselves they mean nothing as far as whether we have a militaristic society or not. They may mean we are wasting too much on defense spending, just as we do on many other government programs.  They don’t mean we are dominated by the military.  I live here.  You don’t.  We are not dominated by the military.  Most places in this nation don’t have a military presence.  Quit deluding yourself.

“How exactly could Ronald Mc Donald, oops sorry, Rabbit meant Ronald Reagan, be given credit for ending the cold war?
Exactly how?  As Rabbit recalls Reagan was busy setting up an inpossible dream at the time “star wars” and various other atrocities were being carried out in anticipation of many more decades of war.  The USSR, led by Gorbachev, shocked the world with it’s own internal collapse, and History shows it was bled to death by it’s military, especially the sharp drain on morale and economy represented by the WAR in Afghanistan.  That is not delusional Chopper, it is history and an entire internet and literary history stand as testimony.  So have a go at another this one is gone for you brother, gone for good.”

The war in Afghanistan drained the morale and economy of the Soviet Union because of Reagan’s support for the insurgents.  Also, Soviet scientists told Gorbachev that they didn’t know whether or not the US could get the SDI to work, but that they couldn’t produce something like it.  Another major factor in the break-up of the Soviet Union was the Pope’s support for Solidarity, which indirectly lead to the breakup of the eastern block.  Your reading of history is highly selective, designed to support your delusional views.

“Well Rabbit cannot oblige you here.  He has never seen any need to raise the issue of homosexuality on this thread. Not the first time you raised it nor this one.  So if this is the weird and wonderful test of integrity you have set the Rabbit, perhaps he must accept he will lack integrity with such an one as Chopper”

In the “rampant sexism” point “homophobia” and “anti-gay legislation” were specifically mentioned, as was opposition to abortion.  Looks like I wasn’t the one that raised it Rabbit.  You lose on this one.

The war in Afghanistan drained the morale and economy of the Soviet Union because of Reagan’s support for the insurgents.

How odd that a dittohead can produce this fact after denying that Osama Bin Laden is a CIA creation, as they do.

Reagan didn’t support them beyond the fact the policy was longstanding and ongoing but more importantly the people who were resisting the USSR successfully are the same people who are successfully resiting your imperial warmongering as we talk.  They did not fight or win because of the USA.  If you wish to argue against that as you will predictably do, then you may have to explain how they are so successfully resisting your HUGE military might, without even the USSR to back them up?

As for the figures about Military Spending compared to other areas, or history, Rabbit hopes you have some good sources ready because he will be back with some shortly.

As for whether or not you feel dominated by the US military. Rabbit thinks that is funny.  They are busy dominating other countrys you fool, they feel it though, dude they feel it.  The budgetary allocation is the only fact necessary to carry this argument despite your pathetic denial.  If Economic allocation is not an indication of importance of an issue in America................What is?

Also, Soviet scientists told Gorbachev that they didn’t know whether or not the US could get the SDI to work, but that they couldn’t produce something like it.  Another major factor in the break-up of the Soviet Union was the Pope’s support for Solidarity, which indirectly lead to the breakup of the eastern block.  Your reading of history is highly selective, designed to support your delusional views.

Chopper sweet swaggart, your examples are highly selective and whilst they refer to actual events of history, clever one that, they don’t come close to being conclusive reasons for the collapse of the Soviet Union.  If you want you could perhaps ask Anarcho-Sozi who was on the other side of that collapse, drongo.

Delusional views?  Let us leave the decision on who is delusional to posterity, it does not serve the patient to argue sanity with the doctor.

Doctor Rabbit at your service.........................^^....................

Yes Rabbit had already agreed your government are a bunch of bum brothers, it is a part of Skull and Bones lore.  Not in the “normal” sense of our homosexual brothers and sisters, but rather as a deliberate act of perversion.  It is an important issue to those who hold fast to the Bush.  Of course it is. But does it occur to Chopper that one can be a Homosexual and a pervert as well?

So the Pope and Reagan did it now?

Before Rabbit has even found the comparison of US Military Budget to other, less important things like education, health and emergency services ,
there is THIS which sort of makes anything further on the issue redundant.

Push the link and look at the graph half way down the page, and tell Rabbit how you can argue the USA is not dominated by the Military.

Like Rabbit said, the rest of the world feels the lash.................... but you dorks are paying for it.

Another thing Rabbit was hoping others would mention is about number 9.  Jose Padilla .....................a start to legal abuses.

“So the Pope and Reagan did it now?”

Yeah, that’s what I said the first time

“Yes Rabbit had already agreed your government are a bunch of bum brothers, it is a part of Skull and Bones lore.  Not in the “normal” sense of our homosexual brothers and sisters, but rather as a deliberate act of perversion.  It is an important issue to those who hold fast to the Bush.  Of course it is. But does it occur to Chopper that one can be a Homosexual and a pervert as well?”

Your point?

Rabbit; It is a deliberate act of coercive sexual domination, much like rape.  Consensual perversion is relatively just silly play acting.  Not too surprising that chopper doesn’t get the point.  He is such a punk.

This site is a microcosm of the USA.  There are, in the USA and on this site, a group of dedicated, white-hot leftists, with many tactics and no strategy.  The tactics include dishonesty, hatred, vituperation, and illogic fueled by conspiracy theories, wishful thinking, and an air of unreality.  We have been here before.  The year was 1972.

In 1972, the McGovern campaign cut itself loose from traditional Democratic sources of strength such as unions and farmers (the delegates from Iowa to the Democratic Convention that year did not include a single farmer!).  The Democratic Party was instead led by Liberals, radicals, academic and media elites, and money men.  The result was the worst electoral defeat in modern times; McGovern lost the Electoral College vote 520-17, winning only Massachusetts and Washington DC.  The Democratic Party has had only two Presidential winners (?) since then, Carter and Clinton, both of whom advertised themselves as Southern Moderates, regardless of whatever was going on in their heads/hearts/gonads/whatever. 

The similarities between 1972 and upcoming elections is astonishing.  The union movement is now greatly diminished and fractured, so that unions will not in the near future exert a great influence, regardless of how the Democratic Party solicits or ignores their participati