The Real Case for Israel

My point of view is that Dershowitz has lost all credibility...Quoting from Joan Peters and using her material as reference, after it was proven fraudulant,his treatise on Torture and now his vindictiveness on Finkelstein; one would think Dershowitz might be having a mental crisis at this stage of life.
Dershowitz’s Israeli first policy on all things Israel is offensive to the average American..
I don’t agree that anti-Semitism is anyway involved with the way Israel is viewed today..Israel is viewd as an aggressor for cause. The cause being the the willful destruction of the Palestinians and the confiscation of their lands..and now the further implementation of the new aparthied..the creation of mini concentration camps for the Palestinians....

The mindless opinion of the new Anti-Semiticism is just that, mindless! Anti-Semitism has absolutely nothing to do with new or old anti-Semitism..it has to do with the lack of moral integrity of Israel and it’s steadfastness in it’s denial.. Israel is and has been the aggressor and the cruel dictator of the whole region, with the sole purpose of taking all Palestinian terrirtory, preferably without the Palestinians..and to say that statement is the new anti-semitism is way off the mark..It’s calling a ‘spade a spade’ and telling the truth!
Something that Israel and Dershowitz are loath to admit…

I wish that Israel’s reprehensible policies and egregious abuses of international law would not be associated with the base idea of anti-Semitism. (Who are the Semites, anyway?) It’s entirely possible to abhor Israel’s actions (as do some Israelis) without being “anti-Semite.” Perhaps I’m alone in this, but I hold Israel - the Israeli GOVERNMENT - primarily responsible for the wave of terrorism afflicting the world. And I say this without being “anti-Semetic.”
Sanford Russell

No, you are not alone, far from it..there are quite a few who feel the same and that’s why we are constantly monitored for our views and on some boards denied the right to even post!…
However, it’s not just enough to say Israel is the culprit in all of this..they could never do what they have successfully done to the Palestinians without the duplicity of their US Diaspora supporters; who it seems, have no qualms in seeing the US pay for their actions, in loss of prestige and influence amongst the world community.
We have lost almost all international credibility and will continue to have our influence diminish as long as we continue to support unilaterally, an aggressive, racist and aparthied Israel.
Israel has only contempt for the America who supports them and for the UN..

Dershowitz exhibits human predator behavior and Finkelstein demonstrates cooperator behavior. The predator behavior is created and amplified arising from the harshness of the Desert environment, the behavior is then carried forward by the “Cult.”

The majority of the Jews want to get along and go along, yet the minority of Jews, that we refer to as the Zionists, want to continue with the predator behavior. This is why the Zionists are stuck on War, “the one sure route to wealth.”

“Individual Biolgical Opportunity,” is the term used to describe this Desert created behavior, and it explains everything from why the Jews (Zionists) will work with those who plan to destroy the Jews, to why the Extraterrestrials are here. James Carville might say “Its the nuclear weapons stupid!”

The Zionists exhibit genocidal behavior arising again from the harshness of the Desert, the behavior is one in which you destroy all other feeders that share the biological niche with you. This is the reason that the Zionists put a plan into effect in April of 1947 to destroy the mass of the human race, and it also reveals why they can’t tell you that “ET” is real.

When it occurs to you that they indeed have already pulled the nuclear trigger on you, and that you and your loved ones continue to exist only because of an intervention from higher level powers, it should then be good-bye to human predator behavior.

The Chairman of the Armed Forces Committee, Stennis, said in an off-hand manner to a group of reporters, “When the people find out what is really going on, it is going to blow the Pentagon right out of the water.”

http://politicsofet.com

‘BEAM ME UP SCOTTY, THERE’S NO INTELLIGENT LIVE DOWN HERE!’

With all the talk and discussions about anti-semitism, new and old, I have to wonder, in the context of facual reality, that in order for there to be anit-semitism there also must be semitism.....and in that context alone, I ask what is semitism?

Anti-Semitism is the propaganda ploy Jews use to maintain their victomhood status..It’s been in operation now for awhile..and has been wildly accepted as facts..but it is all propaganda and we know that ‘a lie repeated often enough’ has a way of becoming fact..
Just as the mantra that Iraq had WMD’s and we had to go to war. However,the Propaganda of Anti-Semitism has been around longer and goes deeper...to the centuries old reputation of a people....

I understand the significance and history of the use of the term: anti-semitism.  What I want to know is: What is semitism? I have asked that question many times and always get the kind of response as the one given by Edithann; which I greatly appreciate. However, the question of the nature of “semitism” has not been answered. Think about it.

It’s a derivation of SEMITE...Its in the dictionary..and go from there..

Mr. Gordons article is good though I disagree with one point. Logically he is right that you can’t blame all Jews for what some Jews do or say.  I know that right wingers don’t speak for all Jews. I know that the majority of Jews are not right wingers.  HOWEVER, in the real world it does seem that all of the Jews are right wingers because of the vociferous nature of the defence of Israel and a refusal to grant personhood to Muslims/Arabs.  I have posted on the Guardian Website and the pro Israel posters are an embarrassment. Further they claim they speak for all Jews and Americans.  And since the Jewish establishment is behind these racist stupid views it is easy to see how these right wingers are increasing real anti-Semitism.  I consider Foxman a first class anti-Semite.

With regard to the term anti-Semite it really has no etymological root.  It just means anti Jew.  Hebrew and Arabic are both Semitic languages and they have many commonalities.  Further, phenotypically it is often hard to tell the difference between Jew and Arab. When I lived on a Kibbutz for a while I only could tell the difference by cloths. The Arab workers wore long pants and shirts and the Israelis wore shorts.  Of course many Jews are phenotypically European.

Here is a good article on the term anti-Semite

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20040202/klug

I certainly agree, and with the up coming congressional legislation making ‘hate speech’ a crime..It will be open season for the ADL and their ilk, to monitor every American for even their thoughts under the guise of anti-Semitism.....
They are presently trying to get the UN and the EU to also monitor all anti Israeli speech in all European countries..
Will it become a crime to blaspheme?

Do we really need this nonsense??? Are we so insecure? Are we incapable of thinking for ourselves that we must be led by mindless laws perpetrated by people with an agenda to stifle “Free Speech?’ To my mind the stifling of free speech is also stifling free thought! When did ‘Free Speech” become a commodity??

The term anti-Semitism has nothing to do with “semites” and everything to do with hatred of, and opposition to, Jews and only Jews. It was coined by the German journalist Wilhelm Marr in 1879. It was not based on opposition to the Jewish religion but opposition to what Marr described as the “Jewish race”.
It appears that Edithann has never heard of Auschwitz or does he (she) think that this was also “Jewish propaganda”?
Sanford Russell holds Israel responsible for the terror activity in the world. He means, of course, the terror in Checnia, the terror in Kashmir, the terror in Ireland, the terror in Afghanistan, the terror in Algeria, the terror in Sudan, the terror in Bolivia, etc etc.
Patrck555 should try to remember that in 1947 the Jews in Palestine accepted the UN partition plan. The Arabs vehemently rejected it, started a war of terror against the Jewish population which culminated with the invasion by the regular armies of 5 Arab States, on May 15 1948. The Arabs lost. The Jews paid a very heavy price for the victory - the lives of 6,000 Israeli soldiers. To claim that the Zionists “exhibit genocidal behavior” is nothing short of ludicrous and proves the point Dershowitz makes.

Well then, according to Mr Ariram, Finkelstein is wrong and Dershowitz is right, and that it’s irrelevant that Finkelstein has proven beyond any doubt that Dershowitz plagiarized his book from a serious fraudulent book, concerning the very historial points Mr. Ariram has made..
Now that is really funny wouldn’t you admit???
What else is there to say?...Mr. Ariram is pushing the tried and true Israeli line of Propaganda that Finkelstein proves over and over is false, but you still remain the steadfast Zionist supporter clinging to the lie..and intimating that anyone who doesn’t view the picture the way you want must be suspect.
Well, we all know what that means...nes pas???
Contrary to what you may think..I don’t want any legislation to make it difficult for you to keep repeating those lies..and I would expect the same in return..However, that’s not how it works is it? It’s you who demand the right to keep propagandizing as Finkelstien admits, and it is we who must remain quiet..Isn’t that what you meant by bringing in that holocaust?
Not too subtle a point I might add..
Israeli/Palestinian history is just loaded with falsehoods..so to start that endless discussion is certainly getting off topic...Although I would suggest you might want to read the book, and study Finkelstein’s facts for errors..
I’m sure you would want to know the results of his research even if they don’t match with what you know to be true…
I have the book...and have read it carefully, I would suggest you do the same...that is, if you can get it..
Dershowitz is quite thorough in making it not hit all the book stores..and the Zionist clack has seen to it that Finkelstein doesn’t make the book and TV circuit..Just goes to show how much influence lies and propaganda carry!
It’s a serious endeavor to keep a lie under wraps for so long..takes constant vigilance…

Edithann does not answer the question:"Was Auscwitz a “Jewish propaganda”? Yes or no?
And did the Palestinian Jews accept the UN partition plan in 1947? Yes or no?

That was not the question of the board..that was your question..and it has no relevancy on this borad..you are trying to bait me..a common practice of Zionists and the ADL..
I will not play that game of ‘GOTCHA’..
So either you discuss the topic of Finkelstein/Dershowitz, or you can take a flying leap!

well then, i will presume to answer on behalf of edithann: w/ certitude, auschwitz was in no way ‘jewish propaganda’ [the semantics are obnubilated here by the unavoidable conflict between what constitutes a definition of ‘jewish’ for one person is not argutely defined as such by another person]. however, that ignominious moment in our species’ history is precisely the soi-disant justification for ‘never-again’ perpetrations of injustice by one group of people against another group of people. it seems that when one suffers egregious, unspeakable, dispitious, inhumane victimization, s/he enters the apodictic realm of understanding… of palpable, ineffable awareness of what it means to suffer, and concomitantly, would not actively or even disingenuously undertake activities that would cause others to suffer victimization. suffering manumits its victims from enslavement to endless retaliation, and to both emphathize and sympathize w/ all other victims of disenfranchisement, torture, dislocation, despair, dispossession, human rights violations, starvation, and death. for that reason alone we who have thus suffered would never sanction such assaults on others, in this case, the palestinians, who persist in being brutalized by the israeli govt. they are bombed, shot at, bulldozed, arbitrarily rounded up like animals, tortured and arrested w/out filing legitimate charges, incarcerated in refugee camps, walled off from their farms, orchards, schools, hospitals and shops, and prevented from reaching their domesticated animals’ foraging grounds, causing mass starvation amongst their sheep and goat herds. why would anyone who suffered the holocaust allow or be instumental in permitting such agonies to persist? the holocaust victims and their progeny should be the barometer of legitimacy and concinnity in their relationships w/ those in the israeli/palestinian ubiety… they should carry the most finely-honed moral compass of all.
in response to your second oppugning, mr/ms ariram, at the time of forced partition of palestine in 1947, the ‘arab’ residents of palestine owned and/or had stewardship over 93% of the lands of palestine, whereas the ‘jewish’ residents of palestine had usufruct over 7% of palestine. one would have to be hebetudinous in the extreme to expect the arab palestinians to, w/ doe-eyed docility, accept their lands’ being inequitably expropriated to house vast populations of jewish diaspora, initially from europe, but increscently from all over the planet… the US, canada, the soviet union, ethiopia, south america.... for more accurate edifications and arresting elucubrations on the history of the palestinians’ on-going diaspora, please read walid khalidi’s publication, BEFORE THEIR DIASPORA, institute for palestine studies, washington, DC, 1984.

It was Edithann who introduced the term “Jewish propaganda” by writing that “Anti-Semitism is the propaganda ploy Jews use to maintain their victimhood status...the Propaganda of Anti-Semitism has been around longer and goes deeper...to the centuries old reputation of a people..” So, the question remains: Was Auscwitz part of this “Jewish propaganda”?
Tyrrhen writes that “at the time of the forced partition of palestine in 1947, the arab residents of palestine owned and/or had stewardship over 93% of the lands of palestine, whereas the jewish residents of palestine had usufruct over 7% of palestine.” This is wrong. In 1947, more than 70 percent of the land was state land, owned by the Mandatory power, which inherited it from the Ottoman Empire. After May 15 1948 this became state land owned by Israel. And there was nothing “forced” in the partition. The decision was voted in by the UN with a very clear majority. The Arabs used force to try to prevent the implementation of the UN decision. To the great disappointment of Tyrrhen they lost.  Denying the right of the Jewish people to political self determination and independence, while supporting this right for everybody else, is nothing short of racist. There was a Jewish presence in Palestine for many centuries. In fact, Jerusalem had a Jewish majority since 1840. Tyrrhen may not know that, but Israel is the state of the Jewish people, and it is only natural that Jews from all over, if they so chose, may come and live in Israel. In spite of the continuous state of war, Israel succeeded in absorbing millions of new immigrants from countries as different as Russia and Ethiopia, Morocco and Bulgaria, Yemen and France. And, not a single Palestinian refugee existed prior to the war of 1947-48 initiated by the Arabs. But, there were Jewish refugees from the Hebron pogrom of 1929. I doubt Khalidi writes about them.
And, had the Arabs accepted the partition, their independent state would have been 57 y old and not a single Palestinian refugee would exist today.

You are repeating yourslef..and we have all heard it before many time..I understand you think you have a point..but I DO NOT! I don’t think anyone has a right to someone else’s homes and lands..and I don’t care who it is…
I am not going into all the machinations you would like to explore, because it’s been done time and time again..and no matter how you might feel about the subject:
‘I DO NOT FEEL THE SAME AS YOU AND I DON’T THINK YOU HAVE ANY POINTS TO MAKE THAT COULD EVER JUSTIFY YOUR POSITION.’

I would suggest you read Finkelstein’s book
“BEYOND CHUTZPAH” instead of arguing the same tired and proven wrong diatribe of the same and rather boring interminable problem..

We have heard it all adnausaum..so I suggest you stay on topic again...and read the book!
BEYOND CHUTZPAH,in case you didn’t understand it the first time…

What is so good about the Nation State?  The Nation State is an anachronism.  Ibsen was right.  Jews and everyone else would be better off without nation states.

It is obvious that Edithann is angry and even shouting (Look at all those capitals...), but shouting is not the answer to the question Edithann is doing his/her best to avoid answering.
I have not read a single refutation to my previuos post. Apparently Edithann is unable to do that.
In any case even Finkelstein will not agree with the statement about the age long “Jewish
propaganda"…

Is it possible to distinguish between “Jew” and zionist, in these discussions?  After all, all Jews are not zionists.....and all zionists are not Jews. To this end, it appears that the term ‘anti-semitism’ is more in line with the position taken by zionists and/or pro-zionists rather than one distinctively ‘Jewish’. In the case(s)of Mr.Finklestein; Edithann; Professor Dershowitz; Ariram; and, the likes of Rev.Falwell; Pat Robertson, et al, I keep hearing “Jewish” instead of zionist. There is a clear distinction between the two and should be addressed as such. The majority of the Hasidim certainly makes it clear that “Jew” and zionist are distinctively antithetical.  Why is it not being done here? Obviously, many jewish people reject and view the term anti-semitism as zionist propaganda. How then can anti-semitism be categorized as ‘jewish propaganda’, as if to imply or say that all Jews are the same? Think about it.

I am not criticizing anyone....I just hope that those engaged in this discussion will make the obvious distinction.

i just posted a rejoinder to ariram’s riposte, clicked onto ‘submit’ and the entire piece disappeared somewhere, w/ the edifying caveat by ‘inthesetimes’ that my elenchus was over 1000 words… does anyone out there have any idea how i can retrieve it? is there some site i can navigate to where it might be stored?

I am not angry with Ariram,but he is trying to force a discussion on his terms and not the original question...The caps were to again remind him that ‘not all people agree with his premise of ‘his’ truth’, something that Ariram just doesn’t seem to understand or want to accept…

If you will read Finkelstein, he mentions the propaganda and the myriad of false accusations made, all contributing to the problems of today. 
Maybe Ariram is loath to purchase the book for fear it might contribute to sales and, as we already know, there is a large concerted effort to quash any voices that might deviate from the accepted views.

Talking about Nation States is getting off topic..the topic is Finkelsteins/Dershowitz and their respective relations to the truth on the subject..

It has to do with the false facts put out by Peters in her discreditied book of false facts leading to the take over of Palestine, by the Zionists…

having just lost feckly 2000 words of a disquisition to ariram, and having no clue where into the ether it disappeared [i did not realize the limit was 1000 words], i have also lost the heart to repetend w/ yet another attempt. ariram was sufficiently lost in the dense fustian fibers of my expatiating that he was unable to detect that i had in fact addressed his 2 oppugnings: both were a resounding ‘no’. but the no’s were buried in such anfractuous anastomoses they failed to reach his cortical machinery. my apologies.
i will reiterate that, at the time of the UN-mandated partition in 1947, the palestinian arabs had usufruct over 93% of palestinian dunums, whereas palestinian jews had stewardship over 7%. despite what colonial despots and absentee landlords claimed suzerainty over those lands… ottomans, brits, french, germans, martians… the land was being toiled by rusticated, unarmed palestinian farmers whose progenitors had for centuries drenched those orchards, fields, and foraging grounds in their sweat, tears and blood. you don’t need the IQ of a cockroach [beastly intelligent critters i might add] to understand why the arab palestinians rejected the UN mandate, given that implementing it would deprive them of their centuries-long investment in that land. so they were removed by force, violently, by adscititious zionists who demolished their homes, burnt their orchards, slaughtered their herds, and shot any farmer on the spot who resisted fleeing across the jordan river, or to syria, lebanon or egypt. this was not a war initiated by the arabs, as you erroneously asseverate; it was one fomented, supported and subsidized by the old imperial and parvenu powers of hegemony in europe and north america, who supplied the zionists w/ sufficiently sophisticated armamentarium to succeed against peasants w/ hoes, hammers, and shovels. just because their votes were cast in the UN chambers of tartuffism does not justify the inequitable expropriation of palestinian lands. i would appreciate your propining references; being a sequacious pursuivant myself, i need source materials to refer to, in order to lixiviate your claims down to the essential nuggets of putative veracity. walid khalidi does indeed address the very topic you raise; you will find his discourse on the subject of jewish refugees most elucidating. and no, contrary to your presumptuous hortative that ‘to the great disappointment of tyrrhen thsy lost’… i was only 6 years old at the time and hardly in a position to be disappointed by anything other than whether or not i would like my supper that night, or if my dog had dumped over the garbage again…

I applaud Mr.Finklestein’s efforts to uncover the truth which is so oftern obscured under the weight of zionist rhetoric that has become commonplace in popular media.  Such is the case of Mr. Dershowitz who has gone from civil libertarian, where he championed the rights of all people to enjoy the protection of the full extent of the law, to facist who spews the now tired propaganda of his zionist collegues. In so doing, like his zionist associates, he tries to silence and/or intimidate all who would disagree or oppose his views. I am afraid that he is letting his virulent hatred get the best of his common sense or he was a two-bit phoney all along....and just grandstanding to/for an unsuspecting cadre of supporters....many of whom are now calling him an out and out intellectual and academic fraud.

I’m sure you could have said that all in less than 1000 words..but, In Joan Peters book, she spells out all that Ariram has stated..and in Dershowitz’s book he substantiate her inaccuracies or really downright false statements of the truth, as reference for his own book..Sort of like ‘the one lies, and the other swears to it’…
However, Finkelstein manages to change the dialogue to show that both are false and Dershowitz not only repeats those lies again on his own but plagiarizes those lies from the Peters book. All diabolically and deliberately intended to re-write history according to the Zionist view and agenda.
A sort of justification for stealing another’s land, uprootings, killings and confiscating of properties of the indigenous Palestinians. Thus shifting the blame of the ‘big steal and terror attack’ and the resulting 60 years of problems to the Arabs…

The whole operation is to make the Arabs guilty of all the problems in the Middle East..that’s the Zionist propaganda push..and we have seen it operating every day..and especially fearsome since 9/11..It’s been unrelenting!

as to the propaganda issue… we are all, especially us, propagandizing. wherever one attempts to persuade, whether it’s an advertisement, or a torture chamber, or an academic treatise, or a newscast, or a comment-board on the internet, propaganda is flowing from an agenda wherein the primary intent is to effect a change in someone’s thought processes. of course auschwitz was a reality, and of course it should be relentlessly resuscitated, as a tireless reminder of what our species is capable of, and what our more argutely-honed compasses should resist allowing to occur again… to preclude future generations’ victimization of the impuissant via any human-induced outrages.
i realize i am way off the topic of dershowitz, but i will cover that ambit in the next posting… w/ more parsimonious verbiage, i depone.

It will be interesting to read more, however spare us the time worn holocaust comparisons,..
when what is being perpetrated on the Palestinians today is a ‘Genocide Lite,’ and not the topic at hand…

To say one believes, has the elements of ‘faith based’convictions. To look at facts, researched and documented, is to put aside the ‘faith based belief’ for the reality of TRUTH!

To trot out an old standard: Orwell must be spinning in his grave.

Dershowitz has lost his everlovin’ mind.

Israel is no “oppressed peoples”. They are a tremendously wealthy nuclear power. They are also incredibly guilty of heinous warcrimes and violations of international law. Zionists and Likkudniks are as dangerous and insane as any “Islamic fundamentalist”. And Israel is without a doubt the South Africa of the 21st Century.

Why are they not held accountable? (yes, this is in part a rhetorical question): $$$$, and the U$.

I want to scream every time some liberal jackass starts whining “anti-semitism” every time Israeli foreign policy is questioned. it’s as bad as bringing up “the terrorists” everytime American foreign policy in questioned. In fact, where do you think we got it from.

Israel is an illegal nation, committing illegal acts every day. If we are worried about nuclear proliferation, we should invade Israel, not Iran.

Puke!

Spinoza750 writes:"What is so good about the Nation State?  The Nation State is an anachronism.  Ibsen was right.  Jews and everyone else would be better off without nation states.”
I agree with him and with Ibsen. But as long as there is a French nation-state, a Bulgarian nation-state, a Rusian nation-state, an American nation-state, a Syrian nation-state, there will also be a Jewish nation-state. The moment all of those nations decide to dismantle their states, I am sure Israel will follow, but not before.

Shaykh Fakeer writes about the difference between Jews and Zionists. He is right when he says that not all Jews are Zionists. Zionism was (and is) the movement of national liberation of the Jewish people. The ultra-orthodox Jews, like Naturei Karta, objected to the Zionist movement from its inception, because in their opinion only God’s Messiah can bring salvation and not man made movements. To this day, they do not recognize the Jewish state, do not vote, even though some of them live there. But the vast majority of the Hassidic groups, while non-Zionists, take active part in the public life in Israel. They vote and are elected and some of them were even ministers in Israeli governments. Many of them serve in the army.
Other Jews, who saw the solution to the Jewish problem in assimilation also objected to Zionism.
It is obvious that one can be an ardent anti-Zionist without being an anti-Semite, even though, as Martin Luther King pointed out, in many cases anti-Zionism mean anti-Semitism.
Fakeer is definitely wrong when he writes that “many Jewish people reject and view the term anti-Semitism as zionist propaganda.” The overwhelming majority of Jews do not view the term anti-Semitism as “Jewish” or “Zionist” propaganda. They view it as a racist, bigotted, hateful, expression of animosity towards Jews.

I know you will probably never understand my point because it would require you to stretch yourself and understand another point of view.
You seem determined to justify Israel..when in actuality there is not justification for Israel at all, and especially on anothers land in the 20th cent., and now in the 21st!....but that’s your point..and must be respected although I don’t see any justification for your point…

Just as you say not all Jews are racist and Zionists, not all people who criticize Israel and their Diaspora supporters are anti-Semitic…

However, that is not how the game is played..because every criticism of Israel and their Diaspora supporters are considered anti-Semitic..and there are no distinctions…
That is the propaganda that is constantly put forth.

However, you’er still are off topic..

parsimonious verbiage, i depone.

On the other hand, you could have said that you would be brief and witty. I suspect all of us would prefer that!!!

This is from a recent email and looks like a good thing.

(b)United for Peace and Justice-NYC and the International Solidarity Movement-NYC present:(/b)

NONVIOLENT RESISTANCE IN PALESTINE
A NATIONAL SPEAKING TOUR ON THE PALESTINIAN/ISRAELI NONVIOLENT MOVEMENT:
Palestinian AYED MORRAR and Israeli JONATHAN POLLAK

Sunday October 16th, 7:15 PM:

Catholic Center, 58 Washington Square Park South, Manhattan

Ayed Morrar and Jonathan Pollak are friends and among the major figures in the Palestinian-led, Israeli-supported nonviolent struggle against Israel’s military occupation. Largely unreported by the media, thousands of Palestinians and hundreds of Israelis are waging a major grassroots nonviolent campaign of resistance to the construction of Israel’s Wall. Palestinian farmers, workers, mothers, and students, together with Israeli and international volunteers, are braving teargas, beatings, bullets, arrest, and even death to block the construction of the Wall with their bodies. Ruled illegal by the International Court of Justice in 2004, the Wall appropriates Palestinian land and destroys villages for more Israeli settlements.

In a victory for nonviolence, Ayed led his community of Budrus in a peaceful campaign of 50 protest marches to stop the construction of the Wall on Budrus’ land. Jonathan has participated in over 200 West Bank protests and has helped to mobilize hundreds of Israelis to join Palestinians in resisting the Wall. Both Ayed and Jonathan have been imprisoned for their prominent roles in the nonviolent movement.

Sponsored by UFPJ/NYC, International Solidarity Movement-NYC, Jews Against the Occupation-NYC, New York City Tikkun Community and NYU Students for Justice in Palestine

For questions contact: ism_nyc@hotmail.com

Jews and Arabs have to work together for Peace and Justice.

Tyrrhen continues to ignore simple facts. What was the status of the lands that made up the state of Israel as it was constituted in 1948? On the basis of official figures published by the outgoing British Mandatory Administration, 8.6 percent of these lands were owned by Jews, 3.3 percent by Arabs and 16.9 percent were owned by Arabs who fled during the war. The rest, 71.2 percent was owned by the Mandatory Power and then belonged to the State of Israel, its legal heir. This land was mostly uninhabited, arid or semi-arid territory. It was NOT owned by Arab farmers - neither under the British Mandate nor during the preceding regimes.
Until the UN vote, on November 29, 1947 not a single Arab lost his home, or vineyard, or herds. 
Tyrrhen shows an abysmal ignorance when he claims that in 1948 the Arab regular armies were armed with “hoes, hammers and shovels”. In fact the Arab armies had air-force, tanks, and heavy artillery, while Israel had none of these. Tyrrhen writes that the war of 1947-48 “was not a war initiated by the arabs, it was one fomented, supported and subsidized by the old imperial and parvenu powers of hegemony in europe and north america”. This statement is as false as it can be. Again, it betrays an ignorance which is really amazing. A visit to any department of history, in any US university, could help Tyrrhen find the truth about that war. And, he “forgot” that in the most crucial time of the war, help for Israel did not come from the “imperial West” but from… Czechoslovakia.

When Edithann writes that what is happening to the Palestinians is “Genocide Lite”, that is a typical anti-Semitic remark and of course deserves nothing but scorn.

The same goes for chuchville, who after a hate filled diatribe can not restrain himself
from using the old anti-Semitic stereotype of connecting Jews to $$$$. He is in good company on this list…
He has to be very careful though, because he may be helping Israel by using a computer, as the Pentium MMX Chip technology was designed at Intel Israel, and both the Pentium-4 microprocessor and the Centrino processor were entirely designed, developed and produced in Israel. The Pentium microprocessor in his computer was most likely made in Israel.
If he uses AOL’s ICQ, he is using a program developed by Israeli. I am sure, he will be very glad to know that he is helping Israel…

Quote Ariram:"When Edithann writes that what is happening to the Palestinians is “Genocide Lite”, that is a typical anti-Semitic remark and of course deserves nothing but scorn">>

You have just proven my point..that any criticism of Israel and their behavior towards the Palestinians is anti-Semitic…

I think Ariram’s remark should be scorned..as it’s exactly what I have previously shown..the usual Zionist propaganda rhetoric is that any criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic..

Ariram is trying to engage Tyrrhan in the Propaganda mantra that there were no Palestinians on the land..and that Israel had every right to ivade and strike first in the prior wars. However, that’s all been disproved by Finkelstein..and going over history and who won what war, etc, doesn’t change facts on the ground today, in that Israel has been the aggressor and remains so today...with over 200 UN violations for land confiscation and Human Rights violations. The the demolishing of homes, targeted shooting of Palestinian children, the uprooting of orchards, olive groves, diverting water sources, poisoning wells, in other words..the slow ‘quiet genocide’of Palestinians with the ‘Auschwitz like’ creation of mini concentration camps all to cage the Palestinians behind ‘A WALL’…

Is telling that truth now Ariram, anti-Semitic?

The other propaganda rhetoric is that everyone should be thrilled that Israel is so expert in technology..However, Ariram fails to say that almost all that technology was invented here in the States and shipped to Israel as outsourcing.
Israeli higher education is so lacking that almost all those technology experts were trained outside of Israel. Most trained here in the States or Europe.
We have to be very careful what we allow Israel to have, for they have a habit of selling our secrets to other countries.
As we just had to put a hold on their newest deal with China…

As Churchville stated..without the money the Zionist Americans control, there would be no Iraqi war..the neocons (Israeli firsters) with their influence on the present administration, have gotten us into an incalculable morass in Iraq, which is bringing us to our knees and breaking our treasury..All with futher Israeli urging, that we now invade Syria and Iran for them also.....

Is that also anti-Semitic Ariram???

There is no end to this type of dialogue..but in the Finkelstein book, “BEYOND CHUTZPAH” he goes on to show that all the facts Dershowitz put forth on Israel and the Palestinians was false..but most importantly was, HOW AND WHY, it was necessary to lie about the real facts.
They were put out for people like Ariram to propagandize the Israel party line...and the lies continue..
Will someone please get the book..because this conversation of how great Israel is, is making me nauseous..

Dear Spinoza..I was only joking..and your points are well taken...but to say they have to work together when Israel does all it can to undermine the process, all the while, whining about security ..is like ‘spitting in the wind’...there are no partners for peace..because just as Israel is no partner for America, they certainly are no partner for peace with the Palestinians…
Don’t forget, the object of Zionism was always to take ‘ALL THE LAND’ without the Palestinians...They were originally counting on the other Arab countries to take them in..and now they are stuck with this endless war!
I’m a realist..Unless America pulls the plug on Israel with no more foreign aide..and no more UN backing..The problems will only continue, until every Palestinian is dead and Israel reclaims all the land and we know that will never happen because the Palestinians will never give up the fight for their land..and their prior claims of return, it will be perpetual war in some form or another…

We must get the American Government to stop all aid to Israel.
That should be the cry of the coming peace march schedule by the ‘Jews Against Zionism’.

Well Spinoza..I wouldn’t hold my breath waiting for the demise of the Nation State..

I can’t imagine being anything but American with my first loyalties always to America…

That’s the problem with Dual Loyalists like so many Jews in America..They claim to be Americans but their first loyalty is to Israel and then America. I have no qualms about them being Israeli’s. But I do object to them being Dual Loyalists..To me it’s dishonest..and a betrayal of America… As the Neocons in Washington have proven time and time again…

Do you think you could pledge your loyalties to the world at large??..I don’t think I could…
And I don’t think many others could either!

I think you all might be interested in the following....

http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_19751.shtml

Contrary to Edithann assertion not every criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic. People criticize Israel’s policies every day. The Israeli newspapers are full of criticism, from the left as well as from the right. But when Edithann claims that Israel’s behavior is “genocidal”, which is typical for the lunatic left’s obsession to compare Israel to the Nazis - that is typical anti-Semitism.
And, Zionism never said that the land was empty. On the contrary, already in 1923 the prominent Zionist leader, Vladimir Jabotinsky, wrote that in the future Jewish state, there will be prosperity and happiness for the Arab, for the Christian and for the Jew. And the fact is, that the Israeli Declaration of Independence states that all its citizens have equal rights, regardless of race, religion or gender.
As for the Israeli achievements in the sciences here is some more information for Edithann. I am sure he/she will love it:
The cell phone was developed in Israel by Israelis working in the Israeli branch of Motorola.
As I wrote before, the Pentium 4 and the Centrino were entirely designed, developed and produced in Israel. No outsourcing here.
Voice mail technology was developed in Israel.
Israel has the highest percentage in the world of home computers per capita.
Israel has the highest ratio of university degrees to the population in the world.
Israel produces more scientific papers per capita than any other nation by a large margin - 109 per 10,000 people --as well as one of the highest per capita rates of patents filed.
Israel has the largest number of startup companies than any other country in the world, except the U.S. (3,500 companies mostly in hi-tech).
Twenty-four per cent of Israel’s workforce holds university degrees, ranking third in the industrialized world, after the United States and Holland and 12 per cent hold advanced degrees.
Israel has the third highest rate of entrepreneurship—and the highest rate among women and among people over 55 - in the world.
Israel has the world’s second highest per capita of new books.
Israel has more museums per capita than any other country.
Medicine… Israeli scientists developed the first fully computerized, no-radiation, diagnostic instrumentation for breast cancer.
An Israeli company developed a computerized system for ensuring proper administration of medications, thus removing human error from medical treatment.
Israel’s Givun Imaging developed the first ingestible video camera, so small it fits inside a pill. Used to view the small intestine from the inside.
A new acne treatment developed in Israel, the Clear Light device, produces a high-intensity, ultraviolet-light-free, narrow-band blue light that causes acne bacteria to self-destruct—all without damaging surrounding skin or tissue.
This is just a partial list, so not to make Edithan more nauseous....
Again, the canard of the “money the American Zionist control” and fits very well with classical anti-Semitism - the Jews control the world. Again, an attitude typical for this list.

Ariarm’s Israeli public relations propaganda tirade is quite interesting in that it’s all an attempt to justify Israeli existence. Apparently they are not too convinced of it themselves if all they have is their own ‘self promotion’!
However,Ariarm fails to state that, all that marvelous work is all subsidized with American Tax Dollars.
The best contribution Israel and their Diaspora supporters could make, is to harness the ‘hot air’ they incessantly produce for use as a renewable energy source..

Is that anti-Semitic??

Finkelstien’s book says that in spades...and he is being attacked with everything the Zionists have, to quash him and his book!

> Do you think you could pledge your loyalties to the world at large??..I don’t think I could…
And I don’t think many others could either!

Why not? My first loyalty is to human kind.

Nationalism, militarism and capitalism are outmoded ideologies based on greed.  I do agree with you that Israel’s ass needs to be kicked and the Neocons/Likudniks ought to be killed. I hate all right wingers and all flag wavers.

This post is really on topic as the motivation of the Neo Cons/Bushites is to defend Israel.  In my opinion they are making things worse for everyone including Israel.  The struggle is against fascism.

The only motivation for attacking Iran is to bolster Israel. This is morally wrong.

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article10651.htm

Edithann has to remember that Israel’s right to exist is the same as the right of the US to exist, and requires no justification.
Edithann now admits that the scientific achievements of Israel are real, but she complains that they were achieved because they were “subsidized with American Tax Dollars.”
Now, objecting to the US aide to Israel is perfectly legitimate and has nothing to do with anti-Semitism. But comparing Israel to the Nazis, by accusing it of genocide and of building Auschwitz like camps, and claiming that Jewish money is behind the war in Iraq is classic anti-Semitism. I doubt Edithann will be able to see the difference, but then again, I am an eternal optimist....

> Ariarm’s Israeli public relations propaganda tirade is quite interesting in that it’s all an attempt to justify Israeli existence.

Yes BUT, ---they do have a lot to be proud of.  But morality has to have the highest priority.  Worldwide we have to struggle against fascism.  But more than struggle against fascism we have to struggle for a just world.  I think this is Finkelsteins main point.

I think the best solution would involve the abolition of Israel or at least the creation of a new single state.

Please read this article.

http://www.shalomctr.org/index.cfm/action/read/section/4th Year/article/article433.html

> In a victory for nonviolence, Ayed led his community of Budrus in a peaceful campaign of 50 protest marches to stop the construction of the Wall on Budrus’ land. Jonathan has participated in over 200 West Bank protests and has helped to mobilize hundreds of Israelis to join Palestinians in resisting the Wall. Both Ayed and Jonathan have been imprisoned for their prominent roles in the nonviolent movement. 

Sometimes individuals can make a difference.  I think there might be enough people of good will to over come reactionary governments.

Who benefits from violence and hate and greed?

Ariarm quote: “Edithann now admits that the scientific achievements of Israel are real, but she complains that they were achieved because they were “subsidized with American Tax Dollars.”

<<<That is not factual, all those achievements were invented here, and developed here in the US and sold, or sent to Israel for outsourcing..it’s all business..any achievements made, were variations on the theme, to either produce the material or bypass the patents and copyrights…
Most of the Israeli arms are American, with modifications made by Israel to market for export..
Haven’t you noticed just recently that Israel got carried away with themselves and tried to sell China our latest arms without any modifications..and got caught...bad boys those Israeli’s. The US put a big crimp on the Israeli economy as a result..
But you completely forgot to mention that the Israeli educational system is that of a 3 rd world..even below Thailand..tsk, tsk, tsk…

OH, and all the above done with American Tax dollars..just as we subsidize the whole the whole of Israel..Who do you think paid for the building of those settlements, and now the mini concentration camps???  ME!>>>

Ariram: Now, objecting to the US aide to Israel is perfectly legitimate and has nothing to do with anti-Semitism. But comparing Israel to the Nazis, by accusing it of genocide and of building Auschwitz like camps, and claiming that Jewish money is behind the war in Iraq is classic anti-Semitism.

<< Just as I’ve said, telling the truth about Israel is anti-Semitic..and comparing Israel to Nazi’s with their policy of collective punishment, demolishing of homes, destroying crops, and targeting children, and snipping indiscriminately..(all admitted by the IDF)..and the building of mini concentration camps to starve them into leaving their homes..
If that’s not Nazis I don’t know what a Nazi is..

As for money and influence in getting us to do what Israel wants and calling it anti-Semitic, is really very amusing..
AIPAC has built their whole organization on one thing..and that’s paying off American Politicians with Jewish money, big Jewish money, the kind that owns the NYTimes for example....and It’s worked..just look at the slimy bunch of Neocons running things..all Dual Loyalists working for Israel...So how is the AIPAC SPY CASE GOING??
Maybe they weren’t spying on us, maybe they were collecting scientific data to send back to Israel for more of those marvelous achievements!YOU ARE REALLY FUNNY! JUST TOO FUNNY…

Please send a list of what’s acceptable speech, or thoughts on the subject..so we might be warned when we are being anti-Semitic..Can one ever return from being anti-Semitic??>>>

Ariram: I doubt Edithann will be able to see the difference, but then again, I am an eternal optimist....

<<Well then your optimism is misplaced…
That phrase of ‘Israel has a right to exist just as we do’..is straight out of the ‘Golden Golda Oldies Book of Propaganda Retorts.’
Exactly what Finkelstein stated as rhetoric to justify Israel...only it doesn’t work anymore, if it ever did!>>

> Do you think you could pledge your loyalties to the world at large??..I don’t think I could…
And I don’t think many others could either!

Why not? My first loyalty is to human kind.

Nationalism, militarism and capitalism are outmoded ideologies based on greed.  I do agree with you that Israel’s ass needs to be kicked and the Neocons/Likudniks ought to be killed. I hate all right wingers and all flag wavers.

Posted by Spinoza750 on October 18, 2005 at 7:23 PM

<<I agree with you wholeheartedly, but I don’t think they should all be killed..I think they should be made to live like the Palestinians are forced to live..behind walls..were they won’t be a threat to anyone ever again…

You know, your theory is fine, and a applaud it, but it doesn’t take into consideration ‘human nature’. That was what religion was supposed to harnass..but unfortunately, no one took into consideration the human nature of the religious leaders..
So it really all comes down to the individual as it’s always been, personal responsibilty for h honesty and moral integrity, without which, we are just like everyone else…

I think Ariram might find the following enlightening...in as much as champions the Zionist Israeli Party Line…

I would consider the characters involved in the article treasonous..and should be in prison as enemy agents of a foreign country…
Would one be considered Anti-Semitc for wanting to seem them in prison?

http://www.wrmea.com/archives/May_2004/0405020.html

are we still on the topic of dersh/finkle....?

It seems the Israeli and Diaspora supporters propaganda and influence, that Finkelstein exposes in his book ‘Beyond Chutzpah”, so pointedly, is alive and healthy.

first, a corrigendum for ariram: my gender, last time i checked between my lower limbs, is female, not male.

as you observed, edithann, the craton of finkelstein’s dersh-exposure is the unalloyed propaganda and intellectual dishonesty of dershowitz’s publication. his unapologetic recapitulation of spurious zionist rodomontade, reaching back to the early 1900’s, has become an embarrassment to the academically rigorous ubiety of harvard [according to my son who is an undergrad at harvard and writes for harvard’s middle east review]. the plaintive orison that palestine was an unferacious wasteland devoid of life beyond a few cockroaches and scorpions induces more oscitancy than the blandishments of the bible-toting bush-brigade. the balfour-inspired malversations’ ultimate aim was to dispossess the palestinians, who constituted 92% of the population at the time, of the most fertile lands and water resources that had been under their usufruct for centuries. these defalcations were carried out in collusion w/ the malfeasing british. beginning in the 1880’s, the palestinians have been at the receiving end of a jewish political movement of european provenance, zionism. 1948 witnessed the long-dreaded, inevitable climax of inexorable zionist colonization since the 1880’s in the establishment of the state of israel by force of arms in the greater part of palestine, and the subsequent displacement of the palestinian inmhabitants from over 500 villages and towns, according to khalidi, whose ruined sites became part of the new jewish state. in the process, over 12,000 palestinians were killed, 40,000 were wounded, and 60% of the palestinian population, some 700,000 persons, were rendered homeless and dispossessed of their country. american support for israel since then has steadily escalated, despite persistent israeli denial of palestinian national and human rights. it is american support that above all has enabled israel to persevere in this denial w/ impunity. this is blatant tartuffism, given the US endorsement of palestinian dispossession has been made in the name of the ‘democratic values’ of american political culture. the more implausible irony is that the evidence strongly suggests the majority of americans would support an evenhanded solution that would guarantee palestinian national survival and self-determination. with the aid of historical revisionism and rationalization the israelis have convinced themselves and their supporters, either that the palestinians did not exist before 1948, or if they did, they were the initiators of the conflict and the tormentors of zion. this line of reasoning has been increasingly refined to categorize their palestinian victims as ‘fanatics’ and ‘terrorists’… the sources of whose behaviour can be traced to specious, atavistic fountainheads...(next installment is forthcoming)

(continued from previous)

from 1948~’67 israel adamantinely refrained from any alleviating gestures of redress or reconciliation, whether in the form of repatriation, reparation, or territorial adjustment. it proceeded instead to expropriate palestinian refugees’ properties and transfer them to jewish ownership. it imposed military rule on the terrorized palestinian minority left in its midst. it carried out in the name of retaliation for the slightest border violations grossly disproportionate military operations against palestinian border villages in the jordanian-controlled west bank and the egyptian-controlled gaza strip, villages whose best farmlands had already been seized in 1948. israel perfunctorally annexed all demilitarized zones and no-man’s lands on the west bank, and unilaterally diverted the waters of the jordan river away from palestinian villages and farms to support their massive, meretricious irrigation schemes in the negev desert. by 1967, israel’s casuistry knew no bounds. having wrested the lion’s share of palestine in 1948, it was now determined to wrest what land remained in palestinian hands. between june and september 1967, israelis expelled across the jordan river some 250,000 refugees who had sought shelter in camps on the west bank and in the gaza strip. enjoying an absolute monopoly of power over the occupied territories since 1967, israel has facilitated its colonization of these territories through a gamut of administrative, legalistic, economic, psychological, and physical cozenage. israel then proceeded to annex east jerusalem, declaring the ‘unified’ city in its entirety as its capital. the municipal boundaries were then expanded to include large areas of palestinian territory in the west bank for housing projects to accommodate jewish settlers from the US and russia, people who had less right to that land than a flock of geese. bulldozers were dispatched to tear down venerable muslim religious buildings, and palestinian homes were seized in the disingenuous name of ‘public interest’, then promptly transferred to jewish ownership. extensive excavations were undertaken next to the foundations of the holiest muslim shrines. prosperous villages in the foothills around Latrun were literally erased from the map and their entire population expelled overnight...(next installment forthcoming)

(continued from previous)

New regulations allowed arrest without warning; censorship of newspapers, book, telegrams and letters; restriction of movement, limitation of contact with others, dismissal of employees by order of the Minister of Defence, and internal exile and deportation from the country without judicial approval; the imposition of unlimited curfews; and the confiscation and destruction of property. Thousands of houses have been blown up, to “punish relatives” of individuals even suspected of being involved in resistance. Israeli troops received authorization to fire live ammunition into demonstrations by unarmed civilians, including school children. Thousands of Palestinians were detained and subjected to torture in prison. Academic life was severely disrupted, through chronic suspension of instruction at schools and universities, and the repeated invasion of classrooms and dormitories by special units of the Israeli army. Leading citizens, doctors, clergymen, judges, professors, civil servants and union leaders were banished from the country. Elected mayors were dismissed, deported and often maimed with connivance of Israeli officials. Informers and quislings were subsidized and armed. Israeli colonist vigilantes armed by their government were permitted to take the law into their own hands, in acts of vandalism and murder. The economic need of Palestinian villagers was exploited to create a pool of cheap labour available to Israel at substandard wages, for jobs no Israeli would touch. The water resources for the West Bank, were tapped not only for use by Israeli colonists but also for diversion to Israeli proper. Even the planting of trees and the growing of vegetable patches, were made subject to official Israeli permission. By 1984, 50% of the West Bank and 30% of the Gaza Strip had been seized as “absentee property” or “registered state land”, or land requisitioned for “military purposes” or closed for “training purposes”. In all instances land so seized was reserved for the exclusive use of the Israeli government or Jewish citizens of Israel. The implantation of Jewish colonies and towns accompanied the process of land alienation. At first, these colonies masqueraded as military or paramilitary outposts in uninhabited area for “security” reasons or even as “archaeological excavation camps”. But emboldened by the acquiescence of the United States and its funding of the colonization process, successive Israeli governments proceeded to establish colonies and towns in the midst of thickly inhabited Palestinian areas in the name of the “biblical right of return” to ALL parts of Eretz Israel. Biblical right? These people had no more right to those lands than the Nazis had to the Jewish properties they siezed.

Well, you said it all and much better than I ever could..It’s all there and as far as I can see, certainly makes the case for ‘Crimes Against Humanity’! And the whole of Israel and their Diaspora supporters should be placed on notice…
Wouldn’t it be poetic justice if Dershowitz would be sued by Finkelstein for anything, even harassment..but preferably Defamation of Character, just so we would have the opportunity of seeing Dershowitz defend his position in open court...Oh, it would be delicious.

Thank you for your postings, and as you can see, this form has turned into something more than Information Clearing House expected,I’m sure…
It was very nice of them to let us continue..even though we might have gone off topic at times, however I think it’s exactly the topic, how could it be separated?

Dershowitz has certainly shown himself to be intellectually dishonest..and even his Harvard credentials have now been tarnished, not so much by his plagiarizing..but also for his stand and writings on torture..He must be experiencing some serious mental problems, because he certainly hasn’t done anything for his reputation and for Harvard..

However, What has happened to the President of Harvard?..He was also a staunch Zionist supporter and from that alone, I have lost all respect for the school...I know the faculty was trying to get rid of him..but I don’t remember if they succeeded, Did they?

Anyway...it was great reading your treatise.And like you I’m a firm believer that Israel never had any justification for being, or becoming a state on Palestinian land..

The first step to recifying that terrible wrong is to bury that phrase ‘anti-Semitism’! It’s been overused and has no meaning anymore..Israel has seen to that themselves....

The nonsensical idea that the Israeli scientific achievements were all made in the USA and then “outsourced” shows how ignorant Edithann is. It would be interesting if she/he can point who did the research that brought the 2004 Nobel Prize in Chemistry to two Israeli physicians, for their discoveries relating to the protein ubiquitin?
Again, anybody comparing Israel to the Nazis, either does not know what the Nazis did or suffers from a blind hatred to Israel, or both. That is the case with both Edithann and Tyrrhen.  .
Historical facts can not be refuted by wishful thinking. And it does not matter who does the wishful thinking, Edithann, Tyrrhen or Finkelstein....
The UN vote to partition Mandatory Palestine into two independent states, one Arab and one Jewish, is an irrefutable historical fact. The Arab vehement rejection of that resolution, is an irrefutable historical fact. The attempt by the Arabs to prevent the implementation of that decision by using force is an irrefutable historical fact. That Israel lost 6,000 soldiers in that war, a whole one percent of the total Jewish population at that time, is also an irrefitabe historical fact.
That Israel is a member of the UN and recognized by more than 150 nations, including two neighboring Arab states, is also an irrefutable historical fact.
Israel just withdrew from all of the Gaza strip (including from the 30 percent of “absentee property”. The fact that the Palestinian Jews accepted the 1947 partition plan means that the majority of the Jews at that time was ready for a territorial compromise, even though the Jewish people have historical rights on all of Mandatory Palestine. The fact that the West Bank and Gaza were not annexed to Israel, even by Prime Ministers like Begin and Shamir, and the acceptance of the road map, shows clearly that the majority of Israelis support the two state solution and understand that Israel will have to withdraw from most of the West Bank.
If the Palestinians will not be able to stop the violence, Israel will continue with its unilateral measures, withdrawing from most of the WB and wait until the attitude of the other side changes.
In any case, Israel is here to stay, if you like it or not. And, most importantly, you can not do anything to prevent it.

Yes, historical facts cannot be refuted..but you seem to have your own version of historical facts,that don’t seem to match with the realities the rest of the world knows..and as Finkelstein reports..
So maybe you had better update your outdated material..and come to terms with reality…
As for any Nobel Prizes that you seem to want to tout..they again were not educated in Israel..And again the question is, if Israel can’t even educate their people why have an Israel?
As for those sainted Nobel Prizes,they are all politically driven and useless..they can be bought and are, buy the Universities that sponsor their candidates and by other monies....sort of like Harvard sponsoring Dershowitz..Isn’t that an hysterical thought?
If you would read the Judging committee, you will see quite a few Jewish names on the Judges roster...and we know what that means..It means the same in Israel, that Jews have their own private roads where no one else can travel..It’s called racism, and that’s how the Nobel Prizes are chosen..with just enough sophistaction to obfuscate the racism to the average person....Any organization who could give Menachem Begin a Nobel Prize has to be suspect, so it’s a non-starter…

All the things you’ve mentioned in all your rants are the exact same things AIPAC and JINSA puts out for people like you to counter when confronted with facts arguing against the state of Israel. You must tell of the Nobel Prize winners, that there were no Palestinians on the land, Palestine wasn’t a country, Arabs came to Israel when they saw how the Israeli’s made it bloom, Israeli’s are the best fighters because they won some minor wars against people who hadn’t fought a war in hundreds of years…
Come on now Ariram..who do you expect to believe all that nonsense..And the best part is that you are not to argue facts or answer any statements..you are to put out your material.and never confront the facts…
You have followed directions admirably…

Israel has consistantly undermined any and all possible peace initiatives since ‘48..without exception..and Finkelstine proves that point over and over ..and for you to deny those facts..and still spew all the Israeli Propaganda nonsense, shows you are a true Zionist and in complete denial

FINKELSTEIN has proven you wrong on every count....so give it up..and accept the fact..that Israel has no right to exist never has, and never will on Palestinian land..end of story!

As you said, “Israel is here to stay”, but migration is picking up and you can’t maintain the Jewish population.. pretty soon the country will have only the myriad of Jewish religious sects left....there is no future in Israel, except those stunted by the religious sects, which is already on a 3rd world level of education and existance.
There will never be any peace..so all you have to look forward to for Israel is a diminishing Jewish population and Perpetual War...Pretty grim I would say!

Oh, is that anti-semitic??

TATA

Now we know that Edithann thinks that those terrible Jews not only rule the US (and by implication the world), but also rule the Nobel prize committees.... She/he just forgot to mention the old guys with long beards who signed the protocols....Even Finkelstein will agree that this is classic anti-Semitism....
As for Israeli education: Israel has the highest ratio of university degrees to the population in the world. And Israel leads the world in the number of scientists and technicians in the workforce, with 145 per 10,000, as opposed to 85 in the U. S., over 70 in Japan, and less than 60 in Germany.
The physicians who won the Nobel prize are graduates of the Hebrew University School of Medicine in Jerusalem.
Remeber, in 1948 there were only 600,000 Jews in Israel, just 5 percent of the total world Jewish population. Now there are 5.4 million Jews in Isreal, 40 percent of the total. In a year the majority of Jews will be living in Israel. Edithann can eat her/his heart out…

So far not much has been accomplished. Would people here agree with Stephen Shalom’s History of the conflict?

http://www.zmag.org/shalom-meqa.htm

thanx edithann. most providential, this internet decussation of concatenating perfervidities; we should warble benisons to the equipollent spirits that none of us has the opportunity to inosculate at the corner pub...we’d intoxicate each other w/ our venom before the ethanol from our first dram hit the bloodstream [tho’ my blabby badinage might render everyone comatose first]. 
continuing w/ a few more profferings of pre-1948 historical perspectives from khalidi’s exegesis [for our intractable ariram’s edification]… ‘the end of world war I brought a pervasive sense of foreboding to the palestinians, as news spread of the recondite agreements amongst the western powers and of the balfour declaration. the palestinians were terrified by the prospect of a jewish national home in their country. this is what they anticipated to be the aim of zionism since the 1880’s, because now, the paramount imperial power in the world, ‘great’ britain [the orgulous name in itself demonstrates a manifest ‘de haut en bas’] had taken zionism under its aegis. the wording of the balfour declaration added insult to injury by referring to the palestinians as the ‘non-jewish communities’ despite the incontrovertible fact that the palestinians constituted 92% of the population. w/ categorical understanding, the palestinians rejected the preposterously spurious claim that jewish association with the lands of palestine in ‘biblical times’ gave contemporary european zionists a geo-political title that overrode the palestinian’s birthright to their ancestral homeland. they were outraged, as would be expected, by the cynicism of GB in giving their country away, carte blanche, to a third party. their disillusionment and sense of betrayal were all the more acute given GB’s wartime promises to sharif hussein of mecca and the arab wartime alliance w/ GB against the ottomans. in 1922, demanding the cessation of zionist mass immigration to palestine, and the transfer of palestinian land to zionist ownership, the palestinians called for a govt. based on proportional represention… at which point the british govt. issued the infamous ‘white paper’ which would ultimately effect the seamless transition of palestine, based on ‘economic absorptive capacity’ into a jewish national home. the terms of the british mandate were approved by the league of nations council in july 1922 w/out, for obvious reasons, the consent of the palestinians. imposed upon them by force, the palestinians considered the mandate to carry no moral or legal validity. the palestinians constituted the vast majority of the population and owned the bulk of the land, but the british and zionists were determined to subvert this unequivocal fact by using mass immigration to change the demographic balance between zionist immigrants and palestinian residents, and to use land transfers to alter the land ownership balance. the palestinians’ only hope lay in the application of representative govt. but neither the british nor the zionists at any time during the mandate accepted the democratic principle of equitable representation as applicable to palestine; its observance would have ‘mandated’ acknowledging the presence of a palestinian majority and the concomitant undermining of establishing a jewish national home.... [more to follow...aaaaghhh]

My Dear Ariram..It’s irrelevant if Israel was the first in all endeavors..That still doesn’t justify it’s existence on Palestinian land..

Does being first, mean one has the right to another’s home? If you could answer that question, then maybe your postings would be relevant!

I notice how you ignore my statements of the AIPAC rules of engagement

tyrrhen:

Love your ‘blabby badinage’ and all your Prof. Irwin Coreyisms. 

I respect the Zionist desire for a Jewish homeland.  I just think it was a colossal blunder to insist they had to steal it away from another people for putative religious reasons.  They could have been welcomed with open arms in Western Canada, or even East Africa.

Although comparisons with Nazi and Israeli atrocities may in someways be appropriate, it only serves to make Israeli nationalists like our friend ariram see red.  A closer connection can be made to Apartheid South Africa.  One aspect of overbearing anti-semitic propaganda is the perception that the Nazi death camps were exclusively dedicated to the extermination of Jews.  They minimize or forget about the millions of Roma, Slavs, homosexuals, leftists and other untermenschen that suffered in the Nazi Holocaust.

“But then to the entire world they are oblivious.  For the entire world they have one word: goy!  ‘I live here and I speak Hebrew and all I know and see are other Jews like me and isn’t that wonderful!’ Oh, what an impoverished Jew this arrogant Israeli is!  Yes, they are the authentic ones, the Yehoshuas and the Ozes, and tell me, I ask them, what are Saul Alinsky and David Riesman and Meyer Schapiro and Leonard Bernstein and Bella Abzug and Paul Goodman and Allen Ginsberg, and on and on and on and on?  Who do they think they are, these provincial nobodies!  Jailers!  This is their great Jewish achievement — to make Jews into jailers and jet-bomber pilots!  And just suppose they were to succeed, suppose they were to win and have their way and every Arab in Nablus and every Arab in Hebron and every Arab in Galilee and in Gaza, suppose every Arab in the world, were to disappear courtesy of the Jewish nuclear bomb, what would they have here fifty years from now?  A noisy little state of no importance whatsoever.  That’s what the persecution and the destruction of the Palestinians will have been for — the creation of a Jewish Belgium, without even a Brussels to show for it.  That’s what these ‘authentic’ Jews will have contributed to civilization — a country lacking every quality that gave the Jews their great distinction!  They may be able to instill in other Arabs who live under their evil occupation fear and respect for their ‘superiority,’ but I grew up with you people, I was educated with you people, by you people, I lived with real Jews, at Harvard, at Chicago, with truly superior people, whom I admired, whom I loved, to whom I did indeed feel inferior and rightly so — the vitality in them, the irony in them, the human sympathy, the human tolerance, the goodness of heart that was simply instinctive in them, people with the Jewish sense of survival that was all human, elastic, adaptable, humorous, creative, and all this they have replaced here with a stick!  The Golden Calf was more Jewish than Ariel Sharon, God of Samaria and Judea and the Holy Gaza Strip!  The worst of the ghetto Jew combined with the worst of the bellicose, belligerent goy, and that is what these people call ‘authentic’!  Jews have a reputation for being intelligent, and they are intelligent.  The only place I have ever been where all the Jews are stupid is Israel.  I spit on them!  I spit on them!”

.....philip roth

hi luminous

The comparison of Israelis with Nazis was good enough for Primo Levi, who wrote “everyone is someone’s Jew. Today, the Palestinians are the Jews of the Israelis.”

The comparison was good enough for Albert Einstein who REPEATEDLY referred to Israel’s prime minister to be, Menachem Begin as a “fascist” and “a Nazi” and compared Israel’s behavior to “fascism” and “Nazism” in a letter to the New York Time signed by 30 other prominent Jews.

Israel’s famous and beloved philosopher Yeshahua Leibowitz coined the TERM “Judeo-Nazis” to refer to Israel’s disgusting abominations in the Occupied Territories and in Lebannon.  Nobel laureate Jose Saramago made the comparison and so have many others.

Finkelstein said it best: if the Israelis don’t want to be compared with Nazis they should simply stop acting like Nazis.

ps

ariram really ought to tell us whether his zionazi propaganda derives from joan peters or her demented disciple Alan Dershowitz. Recall that the later has recently wound up a frustrated laughingstock for his rather clumsy efforts to cover his tracks.

Those adorable Israelis!

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/636086.html

(from yesterday’s ha’aretz)

WOW! y’all are intense! but this is a pretty critical issue. My own thoughts…

Tyrrhen - please just use regular speech, your overbearing verbosity makes your posts nearly unreadable - though they contain very interesting ideas buried in them.

Edithanne - you do, at times, get worked-up to the point you do almost sound anti-semitic. ariram is, of course, good at provoking you.

Ariram - you are obtuse, overbearing, and insufferably smug, please look into some “real” historical facts - even if they make you uncomfortable. Grapple with some of this information with integrity and maybe you will have some thoughts that would be interesting to people that disagree with you.

Israel has the same right to exist that America has - we killed millions for our land. Manifest Destiny and Zionism are quite similar aren’t they? America, by the way, is not a nation state - it is a state. what is the “nation” of america? Nation means a people sharing common traditions, history, and mythology.

However, I no more support Zionism than I would support a continuation of Manifest Destiny. Anybody that can respect people like Martin Luther King, Jr or Ghandi; Anybody that has a morality that extends beyond their own tribe must condemn Zionism. Zionism is simple racism gussied-up for a night on the town. Otherwise, lets finish-off the Natives, grab their casinos etc. and let Manifest Destiny roll-on.

“Israel has the same right to exist that America has”

I guess I probably agree with that statement. Neither has any right to exist. Were Israel held to the standards of international law and human rights imposed on, for example, Iraq, then Israel would first undergo sanctions which would destroy 1.5 million Jews in Israel, (most of them, children), after which the Jewish state would be subjected to high intensity bombing and occupation by American, Nazi-inspired GI torturers and filth, closely followed by U.S. war profiteers. were this the case, all the zionist blather about a “second holocaust” might carry some weight!

Siskiyouz should re-read Edithann’s statement claiming that the Nobel prize committees are under Jewish control. That is not “almost anti-Semitic” it is typical, classic anti-Semitism. But of course, that is perfectly acceptable on this list, if it serves to denigrate Israel.
As for “real” historical facts. Why do not you bring one as an example? It appears that you are not able to refute any of the facts I wrote about. For example, the fact that the Arabs rejected the UN partition plan, or the fact that they used military force to try and prevent its implementation.
If the Arabs had accepted the UN plan thousands of lives, on both sides, would have been spared.. There is no comparison between Manifest Destiny and Zionism. The Zionist movement was a movement for the national liberation of the Jewish people. And, it had nothing to do with religion. It was founded by secular Jews, whose motives were nationalist and not religious.
BTW, Martin Luther King was a strong supporter of the Zionist movement and of Israel and even called those who oppose Zionism anti-Semites.(see From M.L. King Jr., “Letter to an Anti-Zionist Friend,” Saturday Review_XLVII (Aug. 1967), p. 76.)
It is clear that israelsarefilth hates America as much, or even more than he hates Israel. It is a perfect example of what some call “lunatic left”.....

“It is clear that israelsarefilth hates America as much, or even more than he hates Israel.”

..about the only point in your dishonest post I can agree with. America--a country founded on extermination of the indigenous population, built with forced labor dragged by the hair from Africa; the only country ever to use atomic weapons (twice in 72 hours against civilian population centers in gratuitous acts of mass terror) before going on an extermination jamboree in SE Asia that makes the holocaust look like a mini-couirse in civics.

You repeat the same crap about Israel accepting partition and the palestinians rejecting it, ignoring the fact that a) the one-sided proposal concocted through graft and extortion by Harry Truman most likely violated the UN Charter in its implicit denial of indigenous rights and b) the Zionists could not have been clearer about their expansionist intentions, as one who has read the voluminous statements of weitzman, ben gurion, Jabotinsky, Dayan, Sharon etc etc etc on the matter is perfectly aware. They NEVER considered their advance would stop with the borders outlined in the partition plan and CONTINUE to refuse to specify their borders, siezing every opportunity to expand them through the kind of ethnic cleansuing we we today in the West bank,

Israel redraws the roadmap, building quietly and quickly

Settler population grows as Sharon grabs more West Bank land than he returned in Gaza

http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0,,1594808,00.html

Why, you ask, didn’t israel annex the WB and gaza? You’re kidding, i hope? Obviously they would have to either expel ALL of the palestinians, grant them voting rights thereby demolishing the jewish character of their filthy septic tank of a state, or accept the Palestinians as non-voting subhumans and give up any final pretense of a “democracy. “

I ask again whether your demographic tomfoolery owes its debt to dershowitz or his source, joan peters. Full disclosure, if you please.

Oh now, Ariram, you are spouting your typical Zionist rhetoric again..and calling me an anti-Semite...Even Chomsky said all those awards were probably made by friends..and we know that there are ‘friends’ on all those committees...and to say that’s typical anti-Semitic, is repeating the typical ADL response to all questioning your sacred cows!

Comparing America to Israel in the sense of displacing the indigenous..might be a fair claim..However, that was 300 years ago, and one cannot compare the history and times of 300 years ago with the enlightenment of the late 19th &20th;century when the cockamamie idea of an Israel first reared it’s ugly head…

The world did not owe Jews a homeland and never had.. and especially one already inhabited...the world did not owe Jews then, and does not owe them today..And the Arab world had every right to not recognize an illegitimate usurpation of Arab land by Europeans...And most don’t recognize Israel to this date.. No matter how much you might scream and whine, it’s still comes down to the basic facts, that Israel has no right to exist on Palestinian land, not then , not now, not ever! 

The deviousness, with which Israel makes the claim of it’s right to statehood is shown for what it is in Finkelstein..and in Roth’s quote..it is all false and outright theft..and no amount of your justifications of how wonderful Jews are..makes the slightest bit of difference…
The amount of deaths and dislocations, affecting all the surrounding countries of Palestine, are all the result of an ill conceived diabolical plan of outright theft, that can never be justified..

Is that anti-Semitic??

oh--while you’re at it, please make clear what a poor excuse for a Jew you are by denigrating Primo Levi, Albert Einstein, Philip Roth, Yeshahua Leibowitz. Hannah Arendt, Stefan Wolpe, and all the other Jewish luminaries who have compared Israel’s stomach-turning behavior with the Nazis!

The fact of the matter is, talk of anti-Semitism BREEDS anti-semitism. The proper response to anti-Semitism, and here, I’m talking about REAL anti-semitism, not the contrived variety used to drum up support for Israel---if we look at REAL anti-semitism, the response ought to be: SO WHAT? Who cares??

If someone draws a swastika on a synagogue, by all means, arrest the lout if you can find him, and punish him appropriately. But does such (admittedly ugly) behavior towards one of the richest, most wildly successful and politically powerful minorities deserve the ocean of attention it is getting? Does anti-Semitism figure among the 1000 most pressing concerns facing humanity today? i don’t think it figures among the 10,000 most pressing concerns, UNLESS you make the case that dishonest hucksters like Abraham Foxman make, namely that such isolated occasions of anti-Semitism prove we are on the superhighway to another Shoah. Of course, the suggestion is preposterous on the face of it!

The postings signed ‘Israelisarefilth’ is a little extreme wouldn’t you say?
I agree with everything you say, however, that “Israelisarefilth” just doesn’t sit well..

TA

hi edith

A bit confrontational, i agree. Clearly I don’t mean to include all Israelis---certainly not those working courageously for a just peace in the Mid East against exceptional odds. But the leadership and those who go along with it---and that unfortunately remains the majority of Israelis, seem to me to deserve the epithet. A person who supports the nauseating cold-bloodedness of Israel’s treatment of other human beings qualifies as filth, in my book. I don’t believe they should be treated with kid gloves any more than the local Klansman, Green Beret or other racist parasite ought to.

Oh, I agree, they should be considered in the same class as any Klansman, White Supremacist or any Nazi..there are no differences, even with those noble, Nobel Prizes....too funny,…

Anyway..it’s great reading your postings…

What really bothers me is our countries complete betrayal of all integrity.  In our support of this vile nothing state with our tax money, while we read and watch the Israeli atrocities and do nothing about them..
But lets hope it passes soon, with the Fitzgerald investigation of the White House..and it’s cabal of NEOCONS......
Be Still My Heart!

Do you think that’s anti-Semitic?

TA

Yes i do. Any statements against upstanding Jewish pillars of our society like Wolfowitz, Pearl, Abrams, Feith, Libby et al is pure anti-Semitism, as is the suggestion these humble public servants, (members of the margainalized, embattled Jewish minority), wield any significant power over political affairs today. It’s all straight out of the protocols of Zion.

How can you BE so anti-Semitic????