It is not everyday that a professor hires a prestigious law firm to threaten the University of California Press. Yet, for months, Alan Dershowitz, Harvard’s Felix Frankfurter Professor of Law, tried to stop UC Press from publishing Norman Finkelstein’s Beyond Chutzpah. When the Press’ director Lynne Withey replied that she believed in academic freedom and would therefore go ahead with… return to article
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Reader Comments (355)You are just tying to bait me.
I would advise you instead, to read the whole thread..I’m sure you can read all my views and opinions...And if you have another argument to make your case...I will be happy to oblige.
TATA
Posted by Edithann on Nov 28, 2005 at 4:37 PM Dear David Duke lover,
I think you may find this site, www.disney.com, more suitable for your intellectual level.
Love,
Mr. Burglar
Posted by turdburgler on Nov 28, 2005 at 5:06 PM Ah, Mr. Turd: Back for more??...As you will note from previous postings of mine..it was you who were so in love with DD, don’t you remember..but then Zionists have a selective memory..and sometimes it gets into lock mode..where they can’t tell the truth at all.....So what’s your problem with him??..He’s just as racist as you are..Israel is the most racist country on the planet..and you keep building that wall..to keep it so…
You don’t even have any qualms in stating that Israel is only for Jews..give me a break!
I don’t know of any country on the planet that makes such outlandish statements...Especially that you all can’t even get along with each other...so many different sects and cults all vying for the American Dollar…Too funny..just too funny....
I’m not really interested in anything Disney...why don’t you just hang it up..and realize you’ve been beaten with just plain logic..You have any justification for an Israel..and certainly no justification for my tax dollars to feed you..but then, we’re talking about a centuries old reputation for you all to take advantage of everyone...even if what’s left is eachother.....
too funny..just too damn funny…
TATA
Posted by Edithann on Nov 28, 2005 at 6:02 PM Please take the time to go read David Dukes website. His rhetoric is no different from your own.
You didn’t win any arguments. All that you did was change the subject and post a bunch of racist websites. So I sent you straight to the source… www.davidduke.com
I love how you deny your racism. Then in the same post write stuff like, “we’re talking about a centuries old reputation for you all to take advantage of everyone...” If that’s what you consider logic… I suggest you consult a neurologist. You have brained your damage.
Posted by turdburgler on Nov 28, 2005 at 6:33 PM “you all” bwhahahahaha
I bet you are your own grandpa.
With Love,
Mr. Burglar
Posted by turdburgler on Nov 28, 2005 at 6:34 PM IF ONLY ISRAEL had acted like the victor it was in 1967!
IF ISRAEL was truly as ruthless and evil as some say, it would have been able to do what it has proven incabable of doing, and that is expelling all Palistinians.
By allowing so many to remain it created the endless situation on the ground today.
Israel should take 1yrs. worth of American Subsidies and divide that among all the Palistinians, then give them 1 way transportation out of the country forever.
Effort should be made to transport them safely to nations away from the Mideast in order to avoid what happened the first time at the hands of selfish, corrupt Arab regimes who forces them to live in refugee camps isolated and cut off from the nation they fled to.
Once that’s done, it should build a wall around itself and cut itself off completely from the rest of the Mid-East.
The outcry would be tremendous, the threats of retribution and terrorism would be relentless and real.
HOWEVER in a very short time all the threats and danger would subside as people realized that the Palistinians received a deal NO OTHER losing side in a war ever received, an opportunity to start fresh in a new home with financing.
The benefits are great for all. Israelis would have the safe Jewish state they always craved.
The Palistinians would be able to start successful lives in another place far away from the MidEast thanks to each receiving several thousand american dollars which in most places of the world would be a small fortune.
Sudden wealth has a way of healing even the most greveous wounds.
OF course many scream that’s ethnic cleansing.
NO IT’S NOT. Ethnic cleansing is accomplished through violence and death. While eviction is emotionally traumatic. It beats being killed, and when done with a nice wad of cash, it’d beat living in the hell that most Palistinians call home.
Of course there could be liberal exceptions for older Palistinians who would no be able to do this.
Such an option while impossible for most to comprehend would be the best overall permanent solution to the problem
considering there is NO solution to the current situation.
Posted by johnnyincentx on Dec 3, 2005 at 6:11 PM That’s an interesting scenario, but I think you might have most of it lopsided..Why not pay the Israeli’s to leave??..
Why pay millions more to the Palestinians..there are more Palestinians then there are Israeli’s..And Palestinians are used to living in that part of the world..those Israli’s never were!
Israel has been getting our tax dollars now to the tune of trillions these past years..So in the cause if peace, I would say..stop all that aid...and make all the Israeli’s come here to the US and Canada.....
We can make a deal where they can get so much cash..just as you suggested. They can all become Americans and Canadians and start contributing to the American Tax base..They are familiar with our type of Democracy..after all they’ve just about undermined it now for years....so they can reconstitute it as they’ve done such a good job with what ever they have now.......Anyway..they would be closer to their source of our money..no need to fly it over all that water..TATA
Posted by Edithann on Dec 3, 2005 at 7:20 PM Edithann ummm, why I wouldn’t ask the Israeli’s to leave, well for one IT WOULD COST ABOUT 10000x more to compensate them vs. a vs. the typically poverty stricken Palistinian.
Just where do you get your figures? Maybe in 2050 if the Demographics hold up your stats will be accurate, but right now there are far more Jews in Palistine than Arabs. Oh no doubt you are including the Palistinians who DO NOT live in Palistine. Sorry, I don’t.
Even the United States would be hard pressed to come up with the cash.
Reason #2. ISRAEL WON several times. To the winner goes the spoils. IF Israel is to blame for anything it is its unwillingess to to claim ALL the rights of the winner. IF IT HAD, all the Palististinians would have been evicted with absolutely NO compensation, and the world would be 40 years removed from it, and the event consigned to history.
IF you think this is absurd, then read about the settlements that resulted in post WWII Europe, literally millions of Germans were forcibly evicted from what is now Poland, Romania and the Czech Republic, not for reasons of justice. Those Germans were native to those lands for centuries, It was the price they paid FOR LOSING!
Also there is NOTHING UNIQUE about a Palistinian. Palistinians are Arabs. An Arab in Saudi Arabis is culturally the same as one in Jordan or Iraq. It’s time to stop fashioning a unique nationality out of Palistinian Arabs. They are Arabs plain and simple, and Arabs already have about a dozen countries to call their own. Last I checked Jews only have one. To compensate Arabs by giving them the one existing Jewish country sounds a bit LOPSIDED to me.
Posted by johnnyincentx on Dec 4, 2005 at 3:24 AM If I’m an European decended ethnic Caucasian, does that mean I would be equally at home in Montreal, QE, as Miami Florida? Or, maybe Kosovo, instead of Kentucky? Makes about as much sense as saying an Arab is an Arab. If that’s so, then why the deadly conflicts between Kurds, Sunnis, and Shiia in Iraq?
You know what, the Germans attacked their neighbors, and the Zionists attacked and expelled the Palestinians. You’re right johnnyincentx, if you exercise aggression against another People, you are not entitled to ANYTHING for doing so and should lose ALL, which is why I believe the Palestinians have every right to drive ALL the Isreali Jews into the sea! We (Americans) need to quit propping up Isreal and let nature take it’s course. If it weren’t for our quirky Electoral College system that gives the Jewish communities of NY and FL such a pivital position in our Presidential elections, (just as the exile Cuban community in FL perpetuates our ineffective embargo of Cuba) we would not have been supporting this insanity for the past 60 years. So, we have another great reason to do away with the Electoral College - sanity in our foreign policy.
Posted by truthteller on Dec 4, 2005 at 8:00 AM If you mean by ‘winning’, having superior military equipment supplied by the US..against an agrarian populace..then that would be what was the case, but I certainly don’t call that winning by any means.....So don’t let that testosterone rush go to your head....It was never a fair fight and as I’m sure you are aware…
It’s almost the same scenario as our situation in Iraq..We did not ‘win’ any such war..It was an invasion of a super power on a 3rd world country...very similar to what Israel did to the Palestinians..Only Israel did it to steal Palestinian land..and we did it to steal Iraqi oil and long range plans for an Israeli pipleline
Although you’d like to find an easy answer for the legitmacy for Isael..keep in mind that after WW2, no one gave up their homes and lands for homeless war refugees..and most refuges were repatriated..Just as European Jews could have done..instead they were forced by Zionists, to embark on a 60 years journey of world conflict, to steal another’s land…
There was no way your Israel could have ‘vanquished’ the Palestinians completely at that time you mentioned.
You sound almost ‘wistful’ that genocide had been internationally outlawed.
..The world wouldn’t have allowed it...and the world was certainly watching...So Israel devised a more subtle and diabolical scheme of inciting, retaliations..the whole nine yards..until now the constructions of the mini camps is the ‘Israeli final solution’ to their Palestine problem..
The slow innocuous genocide of the Palestinians..Anyway..I understand from your line reasoning, that you’re a a devotee of ‘might makes right’..and that every militarily super power has the right to invade an inferior military power and appropriate their land simply because they can..But to me, that theory is old and passé..and only sows the seeds of continued centuries of conflict..
But as we have seen, conflict and peace are anathema of anything Israeli, they flourish in the chaos of death and killing...and always seem to find the economic advantage..
It’s almost as if that was the intended advantage at the start.....as it’s been working now for Israel for the past 60 years…Your analysas of Arabs all being the same..and sharing all the lands is not only immature..but decidedly stupid..
So then why don’t all Jews share their homes, politics, families, neighborhoods, lands etc especially that they are all Jews and share the same God??
Why aren’t you all ONE BIG HAPPY FAMILY?
Oh, you are the same?..That’s why you are one with the Aschkanais, Ethiopian Jews, Indian Jews and Sephardim’s!..That’s why there is no discrimination amongst yourselves!...That’s why an American Jew is exactly the same as an Ethiopian Jew, or a Sephardim Jew..that’s why intermarriages are so prevalent within the Jewish people because YOU ARE ALL THE SAME?? Then you are really the same also…
..you share the same religion, land, culture, language, skin color, history etc.. I must have had it all wrong!What you are saying is pure crap...but you never did explain why America has to guarantee Israeli survival at the expense of America?? Why there has to be an Israel at all??
When you can come up with those answers..then we can discuss..but as I can see, you have no argument!TATA
Posted by Edithann on Dec 4, 2005 at 8:42 AM Truthteller: I don’t know if the problem is with the Electoral College..I really think the problem is campaign financing..and the amount of lobbying that goes into making he country be the slave of Big Business and Big Money..
Take a look at what AIPAC is doing now..They spy on us..and then they buy off our politicians to make sure every vote against Israeli interestes is killed…
TA
Posted by Edithann on Dec 4, 2005 at 8:49 AM Edithann;
I don’t disagree with your expansion of the reasons the U. S. Government supports Isreal; just as I also think there is at least SOME truth to the argument that Jewish owned American media drive American Zionism to some degree. I’ve been savaged as a paranoid anti-Semite for saying that, but as I’ve said before, just try to say anything against Isreal on an American call-in show and see how long it takes you to get cut-off.
I was somewhat amazed that NPR got away with carrying a BBC program on Thursday about whether or not there is a new anti-Semitism, in which the author of the article this discussion is about, Mr. Finkelstein, was a guest, and the callers were indeed allowed to be very open in questioning Isreal’s existance. I suppose programs like that are a major part of the reason the neo-cons want to shut down public broadcasting in the U. S. - to make it impossible to have a reasoned and open discussion of the issue in any forum.
Posted by truthteller on Dec 4, 2005 at 11:52 AM Well, at least you got to hear the Finkelstein program on NPR and you are absolutely right about them trying to shut down PBS for those very same reasons..and they are succeeding in bits and pieces....
Late last summer, PBS put on a movie about American Jews going back to Poland to find the Polish family that saved their grandfather..The name of the film was ‘HIDING AND SEEKING’. .The film people invited commentaries and critiques on PBS..and I gave mine..it got pretty heated..and of course I, like you, was called every name in the book..and then I was subsequently banned from the discussion boards..
I then realized that the film makers thought they had another ‘Shindlers List’..and when I picked out the parts I thought told the real story..and that it was not the ‘shmaltz’ that was intended, .the film maker got upset…
The remarks I made substantiated by critiques not only about the film but about plain old Jewish society..their thinking and the results of their culture.Don’t be discouraged..because I’ve experienced the same thing as you....But what I’ve really noticed is that ‘THEY’ have no answers to any of our questions..But they do have access to the media at this time....which controls free speech and free thought in this country…
So hang in there...it might be uncomfortable for you at times..but be happy in the realization that the truth can’t be hidden forever..that sooner or later it always comes out..in dribs and drabs..but it’s there..and eveyone knows it...and they have to work harder and harder today at keeping it hidden!If you can..I would suggest you see the film..it was about a vile family..and the conclusion and fantasy is that ‘THEY’ think they’d become enlightened, when it’s the ‘goy audience” that has been enlightened..to just how terrible they really are!..
TATA
Posted by Edithann on Dec 4, 2005 at 1:49 PM Thank goodness for a station like WETA that is willing, in the neo-con’s backyard no less, to put out objective programming from foreign sources. I was traveling through the hinterlands that afternoon, and once I was out of range of them, the only talk available was right-wing drool.
Posted by truthteller on Dec 4, 2005 at 4:37 PM Quote from. Posted by johnnyincentx on Dec 3, 2005 at 7:11 PM
“Israel should take 1yrs. worth of American Subsidies and divide that among all the Palistinians, then give them 1 way transportation out of the country forever.”Expelling people from the land that they have lived on is called ethnic cleansing.
It is a war crime. They bombed the poop out of the Serbs for trying that kind of crap.
Or is a double standatd operative here?‘ johnnyincentx’ are you a racist fascist pig?
I note to you want to get the “American Taxpayer” to finance your atrocity.
Posted by Eadora on Dec 10, 2005 at 6:55 PM Isn’t it funny how he has all my tax money distributed....
How about not giving Israel any of my tax money??
Now that’s what I want!....Such a Zionist..what do you expect?
TATA
Posted by Edithann on Dec 10, 2005 at 7:04 PM TRUTHTELLER: You need to change your name to Nonsequiter. LOL Your analogies are so false. An Arab is an Arab BECAUSE THEY SPEAK the same language. They have the same culture. The conflicts you mention ARE RELIGIOUS. As we’ve seen in Europe, two identical people have NO problem killing each other for religious reasons. You might want to read what someone says in order to respond accurately. I DID NOT say aggressors NEVER get rewarded. I SAID LOSERS NEVER GET REWARDED. Israel has been the winner in ALL the MidEast wars. YET UNLIKE any other WINNING POWER, it has NOT done what other WINNERS HAVE DONE. In Europe the Germans paid FOR LOSING, NOT for being Agressors. Or are you really that stupid to believe that if the Germans would have won, they’d have given 1/3 of their country to Poland anyway? WINNERS WRITE THE TERMS OF THE SETTLEMENT. WHY IS ISRAEL FORCED TO DO OTHERWISE?
Only a person with the mind of a quail would think what I am defining is right and wrong. BELIEVE IT OR NOT NAIVE ONES in the International world MIGHT DOES MAKE RIGHT. However since you believe otherwise despite the endless # of wars that have been settled according to this paradigm, I know I won’t make any headway making you see this obvious reality. Aspects of right and wrong are debated in the halls of power of the winner, NOT the loser. It’s always been this way.
Your attempts to relate use the similarity among Europeans to invalidate my saying an “Arab is an Arab is an Arab” doesn’t conflict with what I said as much as it conflicts with what ARABS PROUDLY TELL US. Oh let me guess you thought it was just my opinion. LOL
The Arabs NEVER HAD A DIASPORA. They never experienced anything that would force differences among them to become as apparent as the differences between a German and a Frenchman an Englishman and a Russian. Those groups CANNOT speak to each other, and practice distinct versions of Christianity. Additionally their cultures are distinct and contrasting. An Arab in Morrocco or Syria or Iraq or Oman or Egypt is going to be some type of Sunni (the overwhelming majority of Muslims are Sunni, Shias are a small minority overall) They ALL speak the same language and share the same culture.
Until you study international cultures you should refrain from using your chosen nickname truthteller, since whatever you say will be far from the truth due to your abject ignorance of the subject at hand. :)
Posted by johnnyincentx on Dec 10, 2005 at 11:29 PM EDITHANN - Yes just stop giving Israel any tax money. OK how do you suggest that be done?. You know that is less likely than the hypothetical solution I propose. How incredibly naive. Bottom line is Israel is going to get that money. Since that is the case, why not find a way to make it create a new reality on the ground that can support an enduring peace?
Posted by johnnyincentx on Dec 10, 2005 at 11:31 PM EADORA: IF ONLY victims of WAR CRIMES WERE ONLY SO CONSIDERATE OF THE NEEDS OF THE VICTIMS. LOL .
Equally dividing 2yrs of US subsidies among the Pals. would give individuals about $7000, and families multiples of that. Such amounts may seem only average to you, but if directed to poorer countries they’d immediately assume the role of the upper middle class at the very least with the means to start a new life and immediately benefit their new home.
I’d like to know when such a thing has happened in any previous incident of ethnic cleansing? It has NEVER happened.
Nothing makes forgiving and forgetting easier than money.
The WAR crimes occur when forceable migration is accomplished by mass killing and terror. Hmmm, maybe you consider giving extremely poor people thousands of dollars of cash and an opportunity to start a new life far away from the current hell they call home terror?
EADORA: Hey also why not study some sociology before you call someone stupid for being right. What you said about Arabs shows you know virtually nothing about Arabs. Yeah I’m sure you’re going to say you’re an Arab or related to one. Well if this is the truth, it hasn’t made you aware of the reality of Arabs. LOL
What you used to counter my reasoning is NOT even remotely related in terms of substance. It is not connected in any way to what I say.
We Jews openly acknowledge the stark differences among the diaspora, YET UNLIKE ARABS we do NOT use it as a reason to set up 15 different artificial nations in our homeland.
IF JEWS SO DIFFERENT FROM ONE ANOTHER can live together successfully than it should be NO PROBLEM for Arabs leavin Palistine to feel at home In Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia. The culture is much the same everywhere in the Arab world.
HELLO that is why the call it the ARAB WORLD, because most people who liver there share a culture, religion and language and ethnicity - four defining elements of a people.
To drive the stupidity of what you said home even further Any truly educated person KNOWS that Jews are Arabs ARE ONE PEOPLE. BOTH ARE SEMITES. Genetic research done by Israeli Universities proved that Jews and Arabs are genetically INDISTINGUISHABLE, Even the Ashkenazis are more similar to the Arabs than they are to the Europeans they’ve lived among for 1000+ years.
The language is similar. Modern Judiasm is derived from the root language that both Arabs and Jews spoke 2000 years ago. The differences we see today are as a result of the accumulation of changes during those millenia, but even with those changes. An Arab has little problem learning to speak Hebrew, and a Jew can learn Arab pretty quickly. It would be more accurate to call the languages each speak DIALECTS of ONE LANGUAGE.
Posted by johnnyincentx on Dec 10, 2005 at 11:32 PM IT SHOULD BE CLEAR TO ANYone that the intractibility of the MidEast conflict IS a RELIGIOUS CONFLICT fought by one people practicing two religions. The failure to recognize this fact is why so many solutions fail.
Islam (and Christianity) can rightly be called heretical Judiasm without demeaning either offspring religion.
The Mideast struggle between Arabs and Jews is more similar to the historical conflicts between Catholics and Protestants or the ongoing struggle between Islam’s Sunnis and Shias.
Playing absurd blame games that paint Pals as a separate and distinct people suffering brutal oppression under the rule of the foreigner Jews is nonsensicle, and so is saying that because of this Pals deserve a homeland as much as the Jews, yeah right!
Even if it were true, why should Palistinians have two homelands? Jordan is 60%+ PALISTINIAN. My guess is a Palistinian is so special to you that one nation populated by Palistinians is NOT enough. They need a second, Israel.
That only makes sense though if one accepts your false premise that Pals are a unique people. They are NOT unique in the Arab world.
ARABS PROUDLY KEEP TELLING US an Arab is an Arab is an Arab. Palistinians say this too ABOUT THEMSELVES! If only you people would just listen.
I’m always amazed at the Pal allies here never seem to hear them say this someone please tell me, sheesh!. LOL
ACCORDING TO ARABS, the Arab world stretches from the borders of Iran to the Atlantic coast of Morrocco. The Arab world is populated overwhelmingly by ONE PEOPLE the Arabs. IF YOU DON’T BELIEVE THIS, then go argue with an Arab. LOL
Palistine is a small sliver of land in this ocean of Semetic land. This small sliver is the homeland of Semites who do not follow Islam but Judiasm.
SEMITICALLY speaking, there IS NO DIFFERENCE ethnically between a Jew and an Arab. They both define Semite.
IF the Pals and other Arabs had welcomed their lost Semetic brother people"Jews" back into their mutual home, this whole mess would have been averted.
It was the incredible lack of hospitality, a real crime in ALL semetic cultures that is the root cause of this, and it was due to the fact that Jewish Semites did not practice the majority religion of the Arab Semites.
If you do NOT get it yet, ARABS AND JEWS ARE SEMITES. They are one people practicing different religions.
The langauge of Jews and Arabs could be more correctly called dialects on ONE language. Their cultures are near twins in terms of traditions. Just like Arabs, Orthodox Jewish women are forbidden to show their hair (but they wear wigs NOT burkas) The clothing an observant Orthodox Jewish woman is almost as restritive as Arab women’s clothing. The rules governing Kosher food is almost identical to Muslim dietary restrictions. The list of things in common is extremely long. The traditions are very similar, and based on which type of Jew you speak to, they can be almost identical.
MILLIONS OF JEWS NEVER LEFT THE MIDEAST. Jews are NOT foreigners in the MidEast. They continued to live with their brother Semetic Arabs. When Israel was born, Arab Semites directed their fury at the Jewish Semites who shared their home. and BRUTALLY EXPELLED them.
Gee, do you have any idea where they went? Hmmmm.
The MidEast is the ORIGINAL HOME for all Semites, both Arab and Jew.
To call Jews invaders or foreigners in Palistine is absurd. Israel IS THEIR HOME, spiritually, culturally and ethnically.
Arabs know this, but refuse to accept them back unless they convert to Islam.
In a nutshell IT IS THE RELIGION STUPID, not the ethnic or racial. Since they are both Semites. :)
Posted by johnnyincentx on Dec 10, 2005 at 11:46 PM Well - I see we have turned Johnny ON!
Nope: not Arab. And I do not know any Arabs.
But account them human.Quote:
“Any truly educated person KNOWS that Jews are Arabs ARE ONE PEOPLE. BOTH ARE SEMITES.”I know that
Why do you allow youself to hate your brother?.
Or give or recieve cause for him to hate you?Quote
“IT SHOULD BE CLEAR TO ANYone that the intractibility of the MidEast conflict IS a RELIGIOUS CONFLICT”We agree.
Quote
MILLIONS OF JEWS NEVER LEFT THE MIDEAST. Jews are NOT foreigners in the MidEastNeither are the Arabs brother. Yet you want to turf them out.
When will you stop killing each other???
Quote:
In a nutshell IT IS THE RELIGION STUPID, not the ethnic or racial. Since they are both SemitesSame as in Bosia, Serbia or Ireland.
Its all Good god Almighty.
A pox on both your houses.If Israel’s policies of REPRISAL where at all valid they would have worked by now!
Israel would be one of the safest places on earth!FACTS tell me otherwise.
You are not willing to learn from your mistakes.You are to caught up with your HATE.
Posted by Eadora on Dec 11, 2005 at 1:31 AM EADORA: Israel is NOT blameless. It has made many mistakes.
HOWEVER the tone of many of the posts here attempts to paint Israel is deserving of all the blame for persicuting an innocent, peace-loving, unique race of people otherwise known as the Palistinians.
There are already 15 or so arab nations. Migration for whatever reason especially losing a war is a normal part of history. Only in this conflict is the historical norm not been allowed to occur.
Palistinians have several million miles of land to go to if they leave Israel. All of which is dominated by their own Arab culture.
BECAUSE the rights of Jews and Arabs are equal, both parties resorted to WAR to settle the dispute. The Arabs lost, but still insist on making the rules.
Only a nation as progressive as Israel would have ever allowed this to occur. Any other nation would have done exactly what I suggested. Ship them to the border, BUT WITHOUT any compensation.
Israel’s biggest mistake was NOT obeying the historical norm when winning a war. It’s desire to be humanitarian is one root of this mess. Ironically they tried to be humanitarian to a people who can be quite harsh and unforgiving when the positions are reversed or in regards to their women.
Perhaps I would have more sympathy if even a shred of that “poor, innocent noble Pal” were true, but considering how Palistinians share the misogyny that is rampant in the Arab world, I don’t.
Yeah give them their own state, so they can be free to oppress the REAL majority their OWN WOMEN.
NO country or culture is perfect in its treatment of women, but by almost any measure, Arabs are near the top in terms of how badly women are treated.
I refuse to obsess about the opression of a society that enshrines brutal repression of women by any means necessary as they do in Arab nations.An Arab Palistinian state would be no different. If you diagree, then check out how shabbily Ashrwan was treated, ONLY because she was a woman. She may accept being so disrespected, but it still offended me.
Israel is a lonely outpost of female equality. That alone will always make me more sympathetic to their justifications for what they do. They tried to do the progressive thing in the wrong part of the world and are paying for it dearly and so are we.
Posted by johnnyincentx on Dec 11, 2005 at 1:46 AM That’s an interesting statment..Israel is going to get the money anyway?...please explain…
Is it written in the American Constitution that we have this Albatross around our neck?
Or do you mean that Israel and their Diaspora Supporters are enough to guarantee Israeli existance with American
Money????Be careful how you answer those dear boy...because you might be giving away the store with that one…
TATA
Posted by Edithann on Dec 11, 2005 at 10:27 AM That’s an interesting statment..Israel is going to get the money anyway?...please explain…
Is it written in the American Constitution that we have this Albatross around our neck?
Or do you mean that Israel and their Diaspora Supporters are enough to guarantee Israeli existance with American
Money????Be careful how you answer those dear boy...because you might be giving away the store with that one…
TATA
Posted by Edithann on Dec 11, 2005 at 10:27 AM That’s an interesting statment..Israel is going to get the money anyway?...please explain…
Is it written in the American Constitution that we have this Albatross around our neck?
Or do you mean that Israel and their Diaspora Supporters are enough to guarantee Israeli existance with American
Money????Be careful how you answer those dear boy...because you might be giving away the store with that one…
TATA
Posted by Edithann on Dec 11, 2005 at 10:27 AM Why bother, Edithann,
By his own admission johnnysenseless is an amoral fuckwad.
Posted by luminous beauty on Dec 11, 2005 at 11:52 AM EDITHANN - what do you think I mean. LOL I’m referring to how political influence in this country translates into funding. Israel is hardly alone in possessing a virtually guaranteed revenue stream from our Gov’t. Egypt also get billions, and several nations get infusions of billions via our stationing of troops on their soil.
LUMINOUS BEAUTY: you go girl, more power to you in your fight to create yet another Arab nation that uses Women as chattal.
Posted by johnnyincentx on Dec 11, 2005 at 12:12 PM I guess you don’t really understand what you say or are just laughting at us..which is more the case..but then you really aren’t an American after all...you’re just a dual loyalist who’s first loyalty is to Israel even at the expense of America..
But you are absolutely right..Israel and their Zionist supporters have the US in a strangle hold with their influnence on our govt. paying off our politicians and media control....
Which all means Israel and Diaspora supporter in this country have a direct line with their hand in the pocket of every American sucker and with enough media control to intimadate anyone who dares say anything..
.But it will all stop soon, even Israel realizes that it can’t last forever...there isn’t too much unconditional support for Israel as there once was, especially with the new uncovering of all the fraud with Jews and Israel at the center…
We can hardly take care of our own anymore..and there seems to be a ground swell of limiting aid to Israel..There doesn’t seem to be the stomach for American support of the Palestiniand genocide by the Israeli’s..which has always been their main agenda..As for women..take care of your own..you have nothing to crow about in that area...those in Israel aren’t even getting educated.....
Every time an American complains about Israeli aid...they always come up with Egyptian aid......
Dual Loyalists always forget that Egypt isn’t running our govt. the way Israel does. That old ploy is the usual AIPAC propaganda you are taught to reply when anyone raises Israeli aid..I’ve read the same manual......As for giving billions in aid for bases..you certainly are brainwashed..your Rabbi must work overtime on nitwits like you..you seem to relish the 18th century view of the world...you are a little outdated...those bases do not add anything to the American Economy..it’s all for Israel..always was and still is...but it will change..and Israel will be experiencing a new 21st Cent. Diaspora...and in the not to distant future..
Israeli has no economy, no education base, and no strategy for the future except more of the same.. .
Ours isn’t enough to sustain a bottomless pit with noting but more of the same..so take what you can now..it’s not going to last…TATA
Posted by Edithann on Dec 11, 2005 at 1:58 PM EDITHANN: you need to take care you gave away the store with that answer.
Most of what your screed is about nothing, however your comment about Israeli women is laughable.
Israeli women are about as equal as equal can get in the patriarchical world we live in. The fact that some remain part of strict orthodox judiasm is not evidence of the opposite. IF they live that way, it’s because of their religion NOT because their Gov’t. has enshrined their subservient status as it is in Arab nations.
So you honestly believe the USA has various bases in the world for NO particular reason? Last I heard they are critical to maintaining US Economic world dominance. I’d say that is a huge benefit.
I have to commend you for completely avoiding facts on your path to enlightenment.
Last I heard, Israel had the highest # of Phds in the world, but that must be a lie right. I mean with NO educational system they just can’t have those PhDs. I know they are brainwashed Pal PhDs.
I think the CIA is overlooking America’s greatest resource, the people who think like you that are in touch with the REAL truth. LOL
The first thing they could do is put you to work re-writing the CIA world factbook entry for Israel. I mean the silly CIA indicates that Israel does have a significant economy by all measures, but even the CIA can be wrong. The mere fact that it contradicts what you believe is proof enough that the CIA is indeed wrong.
Once you’re done writing the CIA world factbook entry for Israel, you could then explain the need for ANY nation to have a “strategy for the future.”
Perhaps this is a UN requirement? I don’t recall that being an expectation of ANY nation. Nations simply exist. They don’t need a reason, but if any nation did need a reason, Isreal certainly has far more than most. LOL
All I can say is thank goodness you are the typical Jew-hater.
You do not exhibit a fraction of the comprehension necessary to ever be a threat to anyone but yourself. Your comments amount to a hate-filled screed. LOL
What I’d like to know is what did a Palistinian ever do for you that made you so fervent in your support that you would willingly ignore their misogynistic culture?
Posted by johnnyincentx on Dec 11, 2005 at 3:11 PM You know johnny, you’re right, my area of political expertise has alway been American Govt. and politics; but my personal conscience has always been about a basic sense of fairness, a great American ideal - something that is totally lacking in our treatement of Isreal and the Palestinians. I and a growing number of average Americans believe that the people of the Middle East have gotten a raw deal from the West for over a Century now. And it’s people like me; talking to family, friends and co-workers about the truth, that will change the grassroots viewpoint from one of swallowing the Zionist propaganda line whole, to questioning our entire involvement in the region; and finally seeing the awful truth of the greed and racism towards the Arab world that put us in the mess we are in.
One of the greatest wrongs in Western history is the concept of “to the winner goes the spoils”. GROW UP. We need new paradiagms of what constitutes fairness, and Zionism and Isreal are not fair, and should not be allowed to stand. If we can get the U. S. government to quit sending MY tax dollars over there to support your beloved repressive Zionist paradise, then I’m going to keep trying to accomplish that.
Posted by truthteller on Dec 11, 2005 at 4:50 PM Johnny says, BECAUSE the rights of Jews and Arabs are equal, both parties resorted to WAR to settle the dispute. The Arabs lost, but still insist on making the rules.
So if the Russians or the Chinese, alone or in an alliance with one another, decide to settle their differences with the USA in a war, and they win, will you emigrate to Canada or Europe? Or start learning to speak Russian or Mandarin? Or convert to the Russian Orthodox Church or become a Taoist or a Buddhist or an athiest?
Or would you still want to make your own rules?
Posted by David in Canada on Dec 11, 2005 at 6:00 PM TRUTHTELLER: Fairness is relative to the circumstance.
Your BASIC sense of fairness is relative to what you believe. The definition of “fair” depends on the circumstances at hand.
It is NOT absolute. It is only seen as fair to those who share your beliefs and standards.
The MidEast’s Semetic cultures Jewish and Arabic have very a very similar sense of what is fair.
Those standards do NOT match up well with the typical American sense of fairness.
Being unaware of this mismatch causes you to make errors in reasoning when trying to be “fair.”
The “deal” is raw, because you are taking it out of context. If you put it back into context, and view BOTH parties as Middle Eastern nations obeying their OWN sense of fairness, a sense they both share.
If you REALLY want to be Fair, how about comparing Israel’s treatment of the Palistinians to the treatment ANY country that lost a war in the Arab world or any conflict where Arabs were the victors.
If you make even a cursory effort you will find Arabs in victory were quite brutal and still are even to other Arabs. You don’t need to look any further than Lebanon to get a good sense of “fairness” in the MidEast. The Christians and Muslim sides in the civil war were MERCILESS in victory.
Or skip over to Saddam and the Kurds. Saddam was NOT being exceptionally brutal for the MidEast. He was BEING TYPICAL.
Or skip over to Egypt and check out the brutal methods that country used to suppress the equally brutal Muslim brotherhood.
Perhaps we should go to Algeria to check out how brutal the war has been between the two sides there.
OR YEMEN, what a lovely little war they had, where a beheading was considered merciful because at least you weren’t tortured
OR SUDAN and the janjaweed gov’t backed militia whose favorite technique is raping all the women of the LOSING side.
The list of MODERN EXAMPLES of the RULES OF WAR in the Arab world is long.
THE EXAMPLES make it clear YOUR SENSE OF FAIRNESS is totally misplaced and innappropriate in the MidEast.
Israel screwed up, because the ashkenazi Jews sought to use the general standards of fairness they had adopted in Europe and the USA. THEY THOUGHT LIKE YOU. They thought Fair is the same everywhere.
They treated the defeated Palistinians with mercy. The mercy was interpreted as a lack of will and spine which made the Pals turn to violence to achieve the ultimate victory over an opponent who lacks the will to win as Semites define it.
The NAIVETY you demonstrate when you speak of fairness and balance is what caused this mess.
Trying to be even MORE fair as you define it would mean more war, because ONLY YOU define fair that way.
To Semites (both Arab and Jew) you’re sense of fairness is the mark of a weak opponent who hasn’t the will to win, and the proper response is to turn every effort you make to be fair into a weapon to be used against you.
You cannot see this, because your sense of fairness is based on believing this conflict is a one on one conflict, seperate from all others with one side, the Jewish side getting a huge assist from us.
When one defines it that way, hey yeah Israel is the bad guy.
Ironically defining the conflict this way is not only idiotic it’s absolutely UNFAIR.
Like it or not, Israel is a MidEast nation of Semites in a religious conflict pitting them agains other Semites (the Arabs) In such a conflict the Semitic sense of fairness is used, your sense of fairness is irrelevant.
Proof that I am right is on the ground as we speak. The harshness and unforgiving Israeli stance of the last few years has been met in the Arab world by incredible advances in national relations.
Now that Arabs see that their Semetic kin the Jews of Israel are going to play by Semitic rules. GUESS WHAT the horrible crimes you talk about get forgotten or overlooked when it comes to doing business, and business relationships are indeed growing
Posted by johnnyincentx on Dec 11, 2005 at 6:13 PM Well, I’m sure it’s comfortable for you believing that Israel is the best thing that happened to the US..but everyone has the right to believe what they want..I see also that Israeli political influence is also rampant in Europe..they have two heritics now sitting in an Austrain jail...they dont believe either..but that’s just the kind of society you and Israel want..one that’s controlled to believe all the propaganda you can generate.....So although I allow you to believe what the hell ever you want...you just have a hard time accepting that I would expect the same without being ‘hatefilled’...too funny..just too damn funny…
The only economy Israel has is arms that we’ve given them and that they’ve stolen......The world is getting tired of Israel starting insurgencies..and civil wars just to make a market for their arms..
Hey, didn’t you notice that Israeli’s were finally thrown out of Venezuela..after a pipeline blow up last week.....can we say it looked like a replay of those Dancing Jersey Jews?? Smart country that Venezuela!!!There is a high unemployment rate in Israel..that’s why they are squeezing the Diaspora for more. The never ending lifeline from here to there..There is no education base to supply any of their dreamed ‘high tech’ future economy..
As for the women..I don’t see too many women running things in Israel..in fact they love their women so much they have a high rate of rapes and sex deviants…
It would be smart of you to let the women’s issues alone..you are not equipped for it..it only makes you look like your sticking your dumb nose into things that are none of your business…Your litany of the AIPAC manual is too long for me to answer in one shot..make your excuses and Israeli cheerleading shorter so I can get to them more thoroughly....
<<<All I can say is thank goodness you are the typical Jew-hater.
You do not exhibit a fraction of the comprehension necessary to ever be a threat to anyone but yourself. Your comments amount to a hate-filled screed. LOL >>>
So typical..only those with political clout and influence are a threat to Israel...well stupid, don’t be too sure..just as ‘truthteller’ said..there are more of us out there than you might think..and with Israeli’s slow genocide of the Palestinians, anti Israel sentiment grows more every day..and with the upcoming Libby and AIPAC TRIALS..it’s getting downright fun...and then watch the Israeli love meter plummet!…
The whole thing is, you can’t tell the difference between ‘hate’ and legitimate criticism of Israel..That would require you to get your head out, and put aside your drummed in hatred of all ‘Goys’.!Is not wanting to support the genocide of Palestinians, ‘hate filled”?
Is not wanting to support Israel with arms, hate filled?
Is not wanting my tax dollars to build mini concentration camps on Palestinian land..hate filled?
Is not wanting my tax dollars to supply Israel with helicopters to lob missiles for their state sponsored terrorism on Palestinians...hate filled?
Is not wanting my tax dollars supplying settlers with homes on Palestinian land..hate filled??
Is not wanting my tax dollars going to Israel, while our boys are dying for Israel..hate filled??
Is not wanting my tax dollars going to Israel, while AIPAC spies on us for our newest military secrets, hate filled??
I don’t want my tax dollars to go to Israel at all..as you said..The Israeli economy is just fine and better than everyone else’s
..so then they don’t need my tax money anymore....or was that another lie too??There are so many more criticisms..but I’m sure you would say they are all hate filled, OH, aren’t I anti-Semitic too?
I know you’ve all been warned not to use that canard too often anymore..it’s been overdone...but so has your ‘hatred’….
TATA
Posted by Edithann on Dec 11, 2005 at 6:19 PM OH YEAH, “to the winner goes the spoils” IS NOT A WESTERN concept.
It is a concept that defines the results of war throughout human history.
The fact that you do NOT know this indicates you have a very limited awareness of the world in General.
Israel WAS the FIRST country in HISTORY NOT TO practice this principal. Because it did NOT follow this rule, She screwed herself royally.
The only unique Western aspect of this is Westerners were and STILL ARE the only ones to question the rightness of this paradagm, much to the pleasure of those not part of the West.
In the rare instances the West has tried to impliment “fairness” as you see as a result of war. The solution was pretty much the same. Look at the Balkan conflict.
The Serbs are usually considered the aggressors, and what was their punishment? They received 50% of Bosnia hmmmm. Which is EXACTLY what they wanted. They are getting Western support in their opposition to Albanian self-determination in Kosivo. WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT they wanted.
In the end, the desire to be fair is seen as an achilles heel by those who do NOT believe in such a thing. While we doubt, they move forward and make plans for the day they are victorious and divvy up the spoils of their win. ;)
Posted by johnnyincentx on Dec 11, 2005 at 6:19 PM EDITHANN: WHO ARE YOU DISCUSSING WITH?
I haven’t sad anything you say I said.
IT’s kind of hard discussing things someone else said.
I know I never said that about Israel.
I personally have never read the AIPAC manual. I didn’t know they had one. I guess what you see as my quoting it verbatim can be attributed to my Jewishness LOL You know us Jews we all are clones and think alike. :)
I guess you never heard of GOLDA, who was one of the very first women elected to lead a country in the modern world.
Ummm, so you think Israel has a high rate of crimes against women, compared to who? Certainly not our country the USA. Perhaps you were comparing it to the Arab nations who worship their women so that they force them to dress in tents and obey their men like cattle?
LEGIT CRITCISM does NOT require talking about race or ethnicity. Yet you cannot stop talking about Jews as if they are one person.
Your facts are wrong, period.
They aren’t even partial truths.
Based on how you use the word you do NOT know what genocide is.
You are clueless as to what makes a concentration camp.
Your accusing Israel as being the causes of civil wars around the world to create markets for their weapons is a first. Just where did you hear that? LOL That’s a good one, and clear evidence that your feelings about Israel are NOT LEGIT, but based on a hatred sourced undisclosed.
OH and HUGO CHAVEZ gets along FINE with ISrael and Jewish people. So much so that the leader of Jewish confederations of Venezuela went out of his way to defend Chavez as being MORE than fair. Israel is SO friendly with Chavez that they were about to sell a lot of F-16s to Chavez until the USA stopped the deal. (Hugo Chavez is a legit nationalist he has little to do with people who hate based on ethnicity or race)
Your opposition to funding Israel is your right. The question is why does this translate into vitriolic hatred of Israel and all things Jewish?
If you feel so strongly by all means tell your polical leaders, but if you LOSE do NOT blame the Jewish interests. As shocking as it may be to you, you LOSE because there IS NOT groundswell of Americans joining you in your mistaken beliefs. Actually there are quite a few Americans who are even MORE exteme in their belief than Israel. Some top Republicans come to mind, like DeLay or Bush and the whole Fundi wing who believe it’s their duty to ensure the nation of Israel wins to ensure the prophesy of the apocolypse can come true. LOL
Posted by johnnyincentx on Dec 11, 2005 at 6:44 PM Of course there are brain dead Christians like deLay..but they have already been bought..do you think for one moment if the Jewish Lobby didn’t fund them they would still be for Israel??…
You know as well as I, it’s all about money.. everything concerning Israel is about money...and it’s my money..and I want it stopped..I don’t give a flying fig about Israel...I just don’t want to be a part of their survival on stolen land..that I helped them to steal and am helping them to annihilate them…
Stick that GOLDA crap in your ear..she was a creep of the first order...you know half of the whole Russian communist party in the old days was women..so what the hell is that supposed to prove..that they are better than Arab women??
That seems to be your poinr..and as usual..it’s lame...and a non point…Of course Israeli’s were in Venz.They are all over the world looking for business..and as usual .they were trying to make a markiet for arms..Arms they were hoping to sell, afer all, Venz has to be protected from us right???
Arms which could be used against the US because we have been trying to get Chevez...Israel will sell to anyone..but when the pipeline blew...they were asked to leave...so don’t go giving the impression that it’s all ok..it’s not!We shall see how Israeli stock rises or falls on the upcoming trials...don’t count on too many Americans backing Israel..they don’t back Israel now…
TATA…
Posted by Edithann on Dec 11, 2005 at 7:00 PM EDITHANN: Too funny, when you run out of half-witted reasons to justify what you BELIEVE, you start attacking the person or refusing to give credit where credit is due.
Golda was admired even by her enemies in the world. The fact that you hate her is notwithtanding.
So FOR you it boils down to Jews are money hungry manipulators who greediness knows no bounds. Evil Jews will stop at nothing to make money, and they will do anything to make it, even blow up pipelines in friendly nations (just where did you read that nonsense. I read the WORLD press, not the American press including Venezuelan News I never read about that LOL)
What you say has been heard before same message, same hate. When all else fails blame the Jews the essense of blind hatred. Your justifications falling so short of the mark further drive home that this is true.
Posted by johnnyincentx on Dec 11, 2005 at 7:07 PM DAVID OF CANADA; IF such a hypothetical conflic resulted in a war that the USA lost then the fate of Americans would be decided by China and/or Russia.
IF they decided that Americans had to leave America AFTER America had lost a war with them, exactly how would Americans prevent this from coming to pass.
OF course the USA is a far larger nation than Israel. Forcing an evacuation of such a huge country would be impossible in real terms, BUT IF THE USA DID LOSE SUCH A WAR, there would be NOTHING to stop the Russians and/or Chinese from trying to make it so.
MY WILLINGNESS TO COMPLY would be totally irrelevant. UNLESS THE WINNERS decided to take my desires into account. This is what Israel did after it’s military victories and has suffered ever since for it’s mistake.
Posted by johnnyincentx on Dec 11, 2005 at 7:11 PM Quote from Post by johnnyincentx on Dec 11, 2005 at 2:46 AM
“I refuse to obsess about the opression of a society that enshrines brutal repression of women by any means necessary as they do in Arab nations.”Johnny Johnny Please be informed.
Oppression and Suffering tends to radicalize people.
It tends to make them sick.
Example. The U.S. bombing of Cambodia brought the Kamar Rouge to power there.Afghanistan:
The United States backed the Misogynist religious fundy nuts in Afghanistan, in an insurgency against Soviet involvement in that country.
They supplied and armed them to the teeth. Osama Bin Laden was on the payroll of the CIA. When the Soviets were finally driven out the United States sat back and did nothing while the Taliban took over the country and liquidated any remaining secular alternative.
Result: Oppression became far worse in Afghanistan after the Soviet presence than it was during it. So the Islamo Nut Cases took over because of “American” policy, not in spite of it.
Iran:
The United States precipitated a coupe against a democratic and freely elected SECULAR government in Iran and installed their puppet the Shah.
The Shah set out to torture liquidate and exile all SECULAR opposition in that country. Through the use of his feared and hated secret police, the Savak, who were trained and directed by the CIA. The Shah was very successful in his repression of secular opposition
So again when the people had enough and threw the Shah out who was there to fill the vacuum. You guest it the Ayatollah and Sharia Law.
The healthy secular alternative that existed before U.S. inspired coupe where all dead or exiled as result of “American” foreign policy.Iraq
Under the heel of the criminal Saddam Hussein Iraq was basically a secular nation.
Religiously inspired misogynistic oppression of women did not occur under his watch.IT OCCURS NOW UNDER THE U.S.A. OCCUPATION.
.
The United States upon successful invasion, dissolved and or imprisoned all secular government, leaving but one alternative to fill the vacuum. You guest it, radical Islamist misogynists.
The problem only promises to intensify, as the population is further radicalized by US occupation and iron heal policy. When and if the US ever withdraws from Iraq guess who will take over. Again as the result of US policy
Egypt:
We see the ominous signs of the growth radical fundamentalism here. Again because no secular alternative is allowed. The recent rigged elections there made obvious that the puppet regime of Mubarak brooks no opposition secular or otherwise.
And as you yourself pointed out. Egypt receives an untold quantity of American support.As do the sick repressive régimes of Saudi Arabia and Kuwait.
The present American Administration talk “Freedom & Liberty”
It’s a wonder they don’t choke.So you see it is American Policy that creates the very Monsters that you seem so inspired to fear and hate.
America will never be able to deal with the Monsters it’s policies engenders until it deals with the Monster within itself.Now you tote Israel as a beacon of liberty. We treat our women fairly you would say
But what of your Arab citizens. - And then you wonder why so many of them seem so crazy.
As you must know, but I doubt that you will admit Israel is Apartheid.Read Beyond Chutzpah by Norman Finkelstein. A fine Jewish intellectual.
Even though he is not a Zionist.
Posted by Eadora on Dec 11, 2005 at 7:25 PM If the US was invaded and militarily defeated johnnyjingo would just sit on his thumb and say ‘oh well, nuttin’ i c’n do about it?’ No underground? No resistance? Just craven submission. What a patriot!
Posted by luminous beauty on Dec 11, 2005 at 8:07 PM EADORA it’s striking how you use extremely broad generalizations to make a specific point. That in itself should make you realize you are completely missing the point.
FIRST OFF: The USA backed ANY viable rebel group that opposed the Soviets during there time there. If you were willing to kill a Soviet, you got weapons from us. To the US it was a muslim nation, thus no religious checks.
Once the Soviets were evicted, the USA stopped caring. What happened AFTER that was due to many things. The Soviets destroyed the country. Left standing in the ruins were various rebel groups with no one to rebel against. The USA did NOT continue the funding once the Soviets were evicted. Abscent an outside guiding hand the Afganistans engaged in a protracted civil war which resulted in the Talaban controlling almost 90% of the country. During this civil war the Northern Alliance as they came to be called enjoyed limited support from the USA AGAINST the Talaban. This civil war ended abruptly and the Talaban fell with the US invasion.
RE: Iran - If you ask the typical Persian in and outside of Iran they made a HUGE MISTAKE. There is a significant fundamentalist minority in power, and they won’t give up power easily now that they have it.
The USA has learned from its mistakes EGYPT is constantly told to find a way to democratize. My guess is that because Bush and Condi are now saying it, it doesn’t count. The dictatorship in Egypt is NOT a product of American policy unlike so many others. It is a home-grown dictatorship that the US like any power is seeking to manouver to our own benefit.
The point you try to make is way too simplistic to even begin to be a one size explanation of the situations you decribed.
There are many examples where radicalization is a product of something else. How do explain the radicalization of the fundamentalists in this country? Have they been oppressed?
RE: Israel, my comparison was specific and comparable. Israel treats it’s women fairly. That does NOT mean it treats Arabs fairly. HOWEVER UNLIKE an Arab nation an Arab woman in Israel is freer than virtually anywhere else in the Arab world.
As far as Saddam being forward thinking in regards to women. You are right in that point, but wrong as a whole. Those rights came from Socialism in general and it was part of the Socialists attempts to weaken the Arab opposition to Socialism by undermining a tenant of Arab culture. (Oh you forgot the Ba’aths were Socialists?)
Because you have NOT truly followed the paths the facts you quote have led you, you have found yourself in endless cul-de-sacs of quid-pro-quos that simply DO NOT EXIST.
The USA is NOT perfect. Israel is not perfect. As long as your main assumption behind your reply is that is my belief. You can’t be accurate.
Posted by johnnyincentx on Dec 11, 2005 at 8:16 PM LUMINOUS: I take it you got an F in reading comprehension.
the question WAS: IF THE USA LOST.what would happen.
IT was NOT would I fight back in a war to defend my country. LOL
How you read the post tells a lot about why you just don’t make sense in any way.
Posted by johnnyincentx on Dec 11, 2005 at 8:20 PM Hey Johnnyonenote: Golda was a creep and only admired by other creeps..she was the one that coined the phrase there were no Palestinians because there was no Palestine..
Now really, I’m sure you still believe that too!She was a cunning bitch just as all Israeli PM’s have been..who’se only intention was to steal Palestinian land..and once solidly planted to expand to steal all the rest!..The only one with any integrity was Sharatt..and he didn’t last long..the rest just bordered on War Crimes…
As the other poster suggested..try reading the Finkelstein book, it will tell you exactly what happened step by step..His is not the only one..there are others..but this thread was about his book ‘Beyond Chutspah”, and then there is always the recent Chomsky and Dershowitz dabate...you can find a summery of that debate on Counterpunch.com…
As for Jew Hating..stick it in your ear!
TATA
Posted by Edithann on Dec 11, 2005 at 8:45 PM But you would not fight anymore if the US lost the war, because your ‘willingness’ and by inference your ‘unwillingness’ to comply with the demands of the winners would be ‘totally irrelevant’. Perhaps you’d better spit out your gum. You aren’t making yourself too clear.
Posted by luminous beauty on Dec 11, 2005 at 10:11 PM Quote: from Post by johnnyincentx on Dec 11, 2005 at 9:16 PM
“The USA backed ANY viable rebel group that opposed the Soviets during there time there. If you were willing to kill a Soviet,”So it’s the enemy of my enemy is my friend.
Irregadless if they are a bunch of mad dog, sexually disfuntional maniacs.
It’s like hireing serial killers to take out the garbage.Not an intelligent choice, let alone a very moral option.
Sooner or latter you will have to pay the piper on that sort of transaction.
Perhaps the United States made a small down payment on that account on 9-11The case for the problem with Iran stands.
Created by US foreign policy and now Cheney wants to solve that problem by ordering SratCom to make plans to turn that country into glass.Another startleing revelation of the moral high ground you wish to occupy.
Iraq – I am sure the Intelligence and foresight of the people who decided to invade told them what the result of that invasion would be. They are not stupid in the no brains sense of the word.
They turned Iraq into a fissiparous country.
Where anarchy, chaos and civil war now rules, under a foreign occupation.
There is no option now but the balkanization of that nation. And that was the plan. Send them back to the Stone Age, and then blame them for being there.
Another morally exemplary policy – say what!Why the hell do you think it was that Daddy Bush did not drive to on Baghdad?
Because he knew what the result would be!
Fractured weak Medieval Radical Theocracies without credibility or legitimacyTrouble is that is exactly what the PNAC wanted.
Revealing a ghastly predatory nature, another serious moral flaw.And your simple solution to the Palestinian problem is give all the Palestinians their walking papers. Kick them out – Ethically cleanse them
And to Hell with International Law.
Sounds like the ranting of a scofflaw, anther serious moral flaw.When will you guys learn that you do not solve problems with illegal, corrupt and immoral policy. You create them.
Just like the Monsters I mentioned in my earlier post.Quote again : from Post by johnnyincentx on Dec 11, 2005 at 9:16 PM
“The point you try to make is way too simplistic to even begin to be a one size explanation of the situations you decribed. “Basic fair play, morality & justice might seem simplistic to you but until you approach those subjects with an open mind and heart hoping to achieve them, you will find yourself repeatedly getting gummed up in tar babies unable to learn from the history of your mistakes.
And the blood of innocents will begin to drip from your hands.
Now as far as Egypt, Saudi Arabia, or Kuwait is concerned.
They are criminal repressive regimes. Yet you do not feel the need to start crusades to free these people do you. Is it because their despotic regimes toady up to your corporate driven foreign policies?It reveals the hypocrisy of double standard. Another serious moral flaw.
Quote again : from Post by johnnyincentx on Dec 11, 2005 at 9:16 PM
“Because you have NOT truly followed the paths the facts you quote have led you, you have found yourself in endless cul-de-sacs of quid-pro-quos that simply DO NOT EXIST.”Wow! Great Spin Johnny! I’m going to have to remember that line.
I’ll twist the head off of some Right Wing Nut with that line
Thanks.
Posted by Eadora on Dec 11, 2005 at 11:04 PM ......^^........
Not your average STM, Eadora, (Shill/Troll/Moron).
The Jews can obviously afford better help eh?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Dec 12, 2005 at 1:14 AM And apparently a rather weak straw in the army of straw-men in the Neo-Con vanguard. I’m disappointed. I was hoping to wake up this morning and see our johnny entangling hisself in endless cul~de~sacs of quid~pro~quos.
Well maybe his mommy made him go to bed and like Ahnold, he’ll be baahck.
Good job Eadora! you have been saving it up.
Posted by luminous beauty on Dec 12, 2005 at 7:39 AM I really like that word ‘fissiparous’. Hope to team it up with ‘fractious’ and ‘fulminating’ someday. Is alliteration a disease? Or the rule of three?
Posted by luminous beauty on Dec 12, 2005 at 7:56 AM Yoh! Johnny – Here is a Fair warning from another Non Zionist Jewish Intellectual and one of the world’s foremost military historians.
Quote: [B]Martin Van Creveld[/B] - Professor at the Hebrew University in Jerusalem
“If you are strong, and you are fighting the weak for any period of time, you are going to become weak yourself.
If you behave like a coward then you are going to become cowardly – it’s only a question of time.”So how’s the Zionist “Cowardly Quotient” doing these days Johnny?
With policies such as collective punishment, extra judicial murder, indiscriminate sniper fire, the building of walled off Bantustans in occupied territory.
The continued humiliation and terrorizing of civilian populations. The bulldozing of their homes. etc. etc.It would seem to me that the “Cowardly Quotient” is on the rise
For a moment think Johnny!
If these policies were valid don’t you think after fifty years of their application they would have worked by now?
They have not. Things have only gotten worse.Are you so trapped in a never-ending cycle of Hate that you can no longer rethink and evaluate?
So here is one for you to practice thinking and evaluation on, Johnny.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,5344245-105806,00.html
Posted by Eadora on Dec 12, 2005 at 9:08 AM Damed link don’t work right.
Here try this one.http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,7792,1653453,00.html
Posted by Eadora on Dec 12, 2005 at 9:13 AM EADORA: One can be a strong supporter of Israel and believe everything Van Creveld said.
Do you really think Martin Van Creveld is NOT a Zionist, working as he does at the Hebrew U.? Do you really think he does NOT believe Israel has a right to exist and he does NOT support that belief? He’s definitely a Zionist.
Clearlyart of your problem you start out making assumptions when you read the first word of the first sentence. LOL You should wait until you’ve read the last word of the entire article.
50yrs? That is historically equal to about 2 seconds, and this little bit of understanding makes it clear why YOU DO NOT GET IT. History is measured in centuries at the very least, not decades,
Are you really so limited in mental ability that 50 years is enough time to resolve such a complex problem?
ONLY when every member of the generations that were there at the beginning of this modern conflict ON BOTH SIDES have passed away will we begin to see the “outcome.” Only when power is in the hands of their great-great-great-grandchildren ON BOTH SIDES will the world see the end result, and even then the struggle of today will echo on for centuries.
In your eagerness to demand the Palistinians get there way, you seem oblivious to what a Palistinian victory would affect you directly.
You and many other loathe what you see as undo Jewish influence and outright subversion of our Government.
It’s traitorous many of you preach in your screeds.
Well, let’s imagine the result of a Pal Arab victory over Israel.
I’m sure you have imagined what it would be like this.
After arabs were given the right of return and were allowed to form a new nation of Palistine on the foundations of the former state of Israel, the the Pal Arabs would return to their peaceful ways of the past. Their violent actions of today due to repression and injustice would cease once given equality and a nation of their own. OF course being such fair and just people they’d embrace their fellow Jews as equal citizens in their new Arab-ruled Palistine, and all would be equal in the multi-religious successoArab-ruled democratic successor state to the racist/zionist state of Israel.
That’s a nice fairytale, luckily HISTORY has told us what the Pal Arabs would ask for in return for letting the Jews stay.
The indigenous Arabs of Palistine and the Zionists DID sit down and talk about their goals way back in 1914.
Zionists wanted to establish a Jewish state with a majority Jewish population where the Hebrew culture could be re-established and grow IN their original homeland in Palistine. Arabs were not necessarily excluded, because the rules were for Jews not Arabs.
The Pals inresponded they would only accept the Jews IF they learned Arabic and integrated into the Arabic population. The adoption of modern Hebrew, and the practice of Jewish customs would not be publically allowed. Basically they said you can come ONLY IF you stop being Jews and become Arabs.
If anything the Pal Arab’s attitudes are even harsher today.
A Pal Arab Palistine wouldn’t have room for a single Jew. The only option for the millions of Jews who found themselves in a hypothetical Arab ruled Palistine would be to flee or to die. (gee history repeats itself.) JUST AS they have had to do from EVERY ABAB nation since the modern age began. (Middle Age Arab Sheikdoms were far different, but we are NO LONGER in the Middle Ages)
They would flee en masse. to the one place left in the world where they could feel safe the USA.
Considering how you feel evil Jews pull the strings of power now, and are corrupting our nation from within by their dasterdly ways, what do you think it’d be like if someone doubled the Jewish population of this nation?
The hate-filled, fantasy nightmare that haunts you now, probably would then come true. ;)
Posted by johnnyincentx on Dec 12, 2005 at 1:44 PM Yoh Johnny!
Quoting the post by johnnyincentx on Dec 12, 2005 at 2:44 PM
“Considering how you feel evil Jews….yadda yadda “
And
“The hate-filled, fantasy nightmare that haunts you now….”
------------Now that’s not nice Johnny. When did I say “evil Jew”?
But fact that you make the charge is what this tread is all about.
You try to equate anyone who opposes criminal Zionist policy as, “Jew Haters” and as “Anti Semite”
Thereby you hope to “stifle all reasonable debate and opposition” to those repressive criminal policies.That is exactly what Norman Finklestein’s book “Beyond Chutzpah” is all about.
That is what this thread is all about.
You have just proven Finkelstein’s thesis!Finkelstein, another Jew, whom I doubt very much is a Zionist.
So that “Canard” of calling me a “hate filled bigot” will work on this thread.
And take serious umbrage at your unfounded untrue charge.Light it on Fire and Stick where the Sun don’t Shine!
------------------Now as Regards Mr. Martin Van Crevald:
I am sure Martin Van Creveld believes that Israel has a right to exist.
That does not make him a Fascist Zionist.I too believe likewise. Even though I myself am not a Jew.
I believe all people have a right to life and liberty.
Do You?
---------------
Johnny
Would you be surprised to learn that not all Jews are Zionists.Browse these sites:
http://www.jppi.org/
http://www.jppi.org/links.html
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.comThere are many Jews who believe in the “Rule of Law” and in Justice and Fair Play.
There are many Jews who are not taken in by Fascist Zionist Propaganda.
You do not seem to be one of them, Johnny.--------------------------
Martin Van Crevald. expresses with startling clarity his opposition to the present insane criminal and repressive policies of the present Zionist Administration in Israel.
On this site:
http://www.abc.net.au/foreign/stories/s511530.htmYou can read an interview with Van Creveld, in which he explains why present Zionist repression is a no brainer and clearly advocates for a free autonomous Palestine.
Though I may not fully agree with his solution, he clearly sees the present policies of “Iron Boot Repression”, humiliation, & collective punishment as stupid and unsustainable.
-------------------------
Read this next link
http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Martin_Van_CreveldWhere Van Crevald clearly shows what he thinks of your stated solution.
Which is is called by the euphemism “transfer” . It is in fact ethnic cleansing.“Martin Van Creveld is an Israeli professor of military warfare, who has been recently quoted in the Arab press describing Ariel Sharon’s plans to use the looming war against Iraq as a cover to force-expel millions of Palestinian refugees, under the euphemism “transfer.”
----------------------
Read the views and opinions revealed in this interview with Van Crevald. In which he exposes the insanity of present Israeli policy with a frankness only possible for a Jew.http://www.rense.com/general34/dutchisraelimilitary.htm
--------------------------Quoting the post by johnnyincentx on Dec 12, 2005 at 2:44 PM
“50yrs? That is historically equal to about 2 seconds, and this little bit of understanding makes it clear why YOU DO NOT GET IT. History is measured in centuries at the very least, not decades,”Of coarse Histroy goes on for Millenium. That is a given. Do you advocate the present occupation and repression to go on for Millenium?
. Because as Van Crevald clearly shows that it cannot. After fifty years of a policy that continues to show negative results perhaps it is time to consider changing those policiesSo I would encourage you “johnnyincentx” to stop calling people names and enter the debate with a clear tolerant and rational mind.
You at present sound to much like the “True Believer” the “Ideologue”, the “Religious Fanatic.”
Posted by Eadora on Dec 12, 2005 at 9:33 PM i commend you, eadora. you have the sagacity of solon and nestor, the percipience of a clairvoyant, and the fair-minded benevolence of ghandhi. thank you for your judicious and revealing inputs… [tyrhhen, from egypt’s red sea shores].
Posted by tyrrhen on Dec 13, 2005 at 1:56 AM always an inspiration to hear from you, eadora..... david simpson’s review of jacqueline rose’s book, THE QUESTION OF ZION [published in april 2005, by princeton univ press] in the 23 june issue of LONDON REVIEW OF BOOKS, states that ‘public sensitivity to the palestinians, who unremittingly suffer the outrages of messianic zionism’s deployment of vicious colonialist practices, remains high. therefore, zionism cannot afford to have disrupted the assumption that the normal diathesis of israel is one of chronic, unending crisis, because w/out continual crisis it would render less persuasive’ the heinous acts carried out against palestinians in the name of these crises. ... ‘the crisis compulsion is not acknowledged by the current regime and is instead characterized by a repression of the demonic messianic component of zionism by those in power who have a vested interest in casting themselves on the world-stage as purveyors of goodwill and forbearance in a modern and enlightened state. they refuse to admit that messianic violence is at the core of israeli culture and politics today. it is a state whose armies destroy, torture, humiliate, and kill, like most invaders and occupiers, while continuing to insist on the ‘exceptionality’ of such acts w/in the norm of righteous behaviour. thus, when violence emerges against the palestinians it does so w/ all the more force precisely because of its pretense of unpredictability. to wit, the violence of israeli retaliation hides behind the guise of the unpredictable, thus enabling the politicos in power to promptly disavow their violence and appear to be among the righteous. ms. rose contends that a kind of ‘selective zionism’ rules the israeli media and popular consciousness, portraying the myth of israel as a nation ‘believing fervently in its own goodness in the world while being not only devoted to the destruction of others, but also to sabotaging itself in the process, whereby the defensive system devised to keep out infection [the enemy] actually invites it and works against itself.’ as simpson points out, israel is hardly the first nation to believe it’s mandate is holy ...a self-mandated divine provenance. their dramatic hostility to non-jews and their efforts to keep pure the nation’s population is not unique to israel. germany too had its destiny, to be fulfilled only in violence and apocalypse, and deluded significant numbers of its citizens accordingly. like an army, zionism’s empirical implementation has required the co-ordination of a lot of bits and pieces for the moving and supplying of masses of people, the subjugation of the people already there [the palestinians], the subsequent administration of both colonizers and natives, blatant disregard for palestinians’ miseries, and the tacit acceptance of policies that relentlessly perpetuate those miseries. the israeli army’s slaughter of the jenin refugees under the equivoque ‘operation defensive shield’ looks all to cannily familiar to the US military’s slaughters under their various guises of ‘rolling thunder’, ‘just cause’, ‘urgent fury’, ‘desert storm’, ‘infinite justice’, and ‘shock and awe’.....
Posted by tyrrhen on Dec 15, 2005 at 3:11 PM Yoh! tyrrhen
Thank You For:
“david simpson’s review of jacqueline rose’s book, THE QUESTION OF ZION [published in april 2005, by princeton univ press] in the 23 june issue of LONDON REVIEW OF BOOKS,”
The Ideas expressed seem clear and cogent.
I intend to follow up!
Posted by Eadora on Dec 15, 2005 at 11:13 PM -
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