Everyone I meet is afraid. The chief executive of one of China’s largest hotel groups is afraid to complain to the police about the hustlers who sell fake watches outside the lobbies of his hotels. A Buddhist who runs a network of factories is afraid to speak openly about the Chinese occupation of Tibet. A sports marketing official, one of the… return to article
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Reader Comments (43)Page 1 of 1 pagesThere is very little to be seen in the Chinese system as far as repression of freedom which probably doesn’t actually appeal to our governments. US and OZ alike they probably see the Chinese as being leaders in the field of Population control and “homeland security”.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 24, 2005 at 12:23 PM Good to hear a progressive web site criticizing China. So, should we shut off all trade with China in retaliation of their human rights abuses and repressive regime, and turn our back on them as they laugh all the way to Europe? Or should we take the next logical step, confront them as “strategic competitors” and actively work to bring about democracy.
Oh wait. That might involve some unsavory CIA operations or overt military operations. Because that is what it will come down to if the world imposes harsh economic sanctions. The world will be forced to back up those words when Chinese start their own military operations in retaliation in the Taiwanese Straits, in the East and South China Sea, in the West and South Pacific and Indian Oceans.
Better to let the Chinese people suffer in terror a little while longer as we try to reason with a government that has no reason to, well, stoop to reason.
At what point to we start seriously addressing the tyrants and dictators of the world with effective action?
Posted by Jay Cline on Oct 24, 2005 at 3:58 PM This is one of the naivest posts I’ve read on this site. You’ll start seriously addressing the tyrants and dictators when it’s not in the interests of American business to have those tyrants and dictators in power.
Since when has the US been worried about human rights abuses and repressive regimes? Ever been to Central America, Jay? Indonesia? Most Arab countries? The Central Asian formerly Soviet republics? Most of those tyrants are there with America’s (at least tacit) support.
As far as China is concerned - you’ve got to be kidding, Jay. China is close to owning the US debt. Nobody is going to be standing up to them soon. When the Chinese decide to float the yuan against the dollar, down the latter will come crashing.
Posted by Anarcho-Sozi on Oct 24, 2005 at 4:49 PM You’ll start seriously addressing the tyrants and dictators when it’s not in the interests of American business to have those tyrants and dictators in power.
Exactly. Almost.
But that is a whole lot sooner than you might think. The only serious interest in supporting tyrants and dictators in the recent past has been during the Cold War when it was absolutely in our interest, when it was in opposition to the greater threats posed by another totalitarian state somewhere in the neighborhood of the Ural Mountains.
Those threats have diminished, if not altogether disappeared. America’s economy depends on free markets, and regimes that are not free generally don’t like free markets.
Like the Middle East. Like Central Asia.
Like China.
China is close to owning the US debt. Nobody is going to be standing up to them soon. When the Chinese decide to float the yuan against the dollar, down the latter will come crashing.
That might be a bit of a doomsday scenario, since the Chinese would also be a great big loser in any consequential economic meltdown. But, the issues and fears and concerns you raise in that statement are real. The global economic miracle of the last 15 years is at least, if not more, a consequence of an expanding Chinese economy than anything Greenspan has done.
China is pursuing economic growth as a “peaceful” means of dominance. Those are not my words, that is official Chinese policy. But anyone who thinks that the Chinese will stop once attaining mere economic parity, well, therein lies the true naivete.
But my real question from the article would be, how will slamming the door on American economic interests do anything to help the Chinese that are described as living in constant fear of the repressive Chinese government?
If you are going to advocate change, it damn well better actually change something.
Posted by Jay Cline on Oct 24, 2005 at 5:40 PM Free markets, eh? I suppose it’s a question of what you mean by “free”. What American corporations want in third world countries is cheap labour and access to natural resources to rip off.
The fairy story about the “serious threat” posed by the Soviet Union has been throughly debunked. Did you watch the Power of Nightmares, that 3-part BBC docu someone recommended last week? It was all just a neo-con lie.
Don’t know what to make of your last question. As the author points out, American businesses don’t give a shit about human rights in China (just like they don’t give a shit about them in, say, Bolivia) - so who is it you are directing this (purely rhetorical) question to anyway?
Posted by Anarcho-Sozi on Oct 24, 2005 at 6:06 PM This purely rhetorical question is the whole point of the article, so I guess it is aimed at anyone reading this…
Posted by Jay Cline on Oct 24, 2005 at 6:12 PM The fairy story about the “serious threat” posed by the Soviet Union has been throughly debunked. Did you watch the Power of Nightmares, that 3-part BBC docu someone recommended last week? It was all just a neo-con lie.
If a police officer shoots and kills a 13 year old Vietnamese kid in a dark alley because the kid, silhouetted in the night, looks to be brandishing a weapon and refuses to drop the weapon despite repeated warnings, is the police officer guilty of murder because in hindsight the weapon was merely a screwdriver?
Hindsight is great. But you cannot judge actions based on information that was not available at the time. Your argument fails on logic alone.
Furthermore, I dispute the conclusions of the report. When the leader of a superpower pounds the UN podium with his shoe, threatening to destroy you with armadas of heavy tanks and intercontinental nuclear missiles, when that same leader attempts to base nuclear missiles 90 miles off the shore of one of your most populated coasts, when that country engages in proxy wars with dictators with at least equal ferocity as many have accused the US of doing, we are just supposed to pat them on the head and turn away?
Just a Chamberlain did with Hitler in 1939?
Posted by Jay Cline on Oct 24, 2005 at 8:02 PM Jay Cline, you forgot to mention that the United States had placed nuclear missiles in Turkey in 1961 that were capable of hitting all major Soviet cities. In fact, the reason the Cuban Missile crisis of 1962 was defused was beacuse Robert Kennedy made a deal with the Soviet ambassador to Amerika that if the U.S. removed its warheads from Turkey, the Soviets would do the same with their warheads in Cuba.
So the U.S.S.R. started as many if not more proxy wars than the U.S.? Hogwash. Let’s take a look at all of the military/covert ops engagements Amerika has been involved in since WWII in the name of stopping communism or any form of leftism:
Korea 1950-1953
Guatemala 1954
Vietnam 1958-1975
Cuba 1961
Indonesia 1965
Grenada 1983
Nicaragua-1980s
Italy- throughout the 1940s
Chile 1971
Venezuela 2002
Haiti 2004The U.S. was far more aggressive in undermining popular sovereignty in the name of fighting communism than the U.S.S.R. could ever hope to be in fighting capitalism.
Posted by Liberal on Oct 25, 2005 at 12:39 AM Jay Cline, you are looking for excuses to invade and fight other countries. Since WWII the U.S. hs not been involved in ANY foreign war that involved defending its national security, except Afghanistan in 2001. The rest of the conflicts were the acts of American aggression save the Korean War, because the U.S. at least had a U.N. mandate to go into the peninsula.
Posted by Liberal on Oct 25, 2005 at 12:42 AM “That’s what you need to do to stay in business.”
This is just the next logical step for many business people. Many middle management people are only concerned with a CYA approach to all issues.
They might just say, “That’s what you do to keep your job.”
There is very little courage to disagree or express a better solution if the CEO has spoken.
“The customer (or the boss) is always right. ”
Greed too often trumps other considerations.
Posted by whattheheck on Oct 25, 2005 at 12:45 AM The Great Leap Backward occured in the late 1950s. The Cultural Devolution was in the late 1960s, with turmoil continuing in China until the Gang of Four was sent to jail in 1981. Since then, China has gone from killing millions of her own people, and utterly wrecking her diminuitive economy, to pretty young Chinese girls in cowboy hats opening a brand new Walmart in Shanghai. China’s growth has been extremely rapid, in fact, unprecedented in world history.
That is not to say that everything is wonderful in China. The banks are in bad shape, the rapid growth has created economic distortions, there is too much corruption, and China has about 500 million too many people.
China is caught between conflicting forces. The repressive government is trying to promote economic freedom, a contradiction that works to cross-purposes. But the economic freedom is the only way to assure economic growth, which is essential to social stability; China has a long history of instability when the government can’t deliver security and basic needs. Economic growth has ramifications and accoutrements: trade agreements, treaties, contracts, accountability, stuff like that. Stuff like that can’t be thrown over without wrecking the whole structure, which would take us back to before 1980, and certainly end the existing government’s hold on power.
But, without reference to Candide, this may very well be close to the best of all possible worlds. China and the USA have converging interests. China is a massive country, and cannot grow without massive US capital, including cash, technology, expertise, management, and markets. The USA doesn’t need instability in China any more than the Chinese do. And the Chinese people have, in the recent past, demanded more freedoms, and economic strength will encourage those demands. What could be better?
The concerns expressed in this article are critical, but not important. Yes, controlling the internet and the cell phones is a bad thing for the government to do, but the rate of technological advance will make the question irrelevant in five years. Intellectual capital, exchange rates, balance of trade are problems to be solved, not catastrophes lurking.
I first visited in China in 1984, and every trip since then has revealed wonderous new developments. The Chinese are rapidly coming around to the idea of freedom in markets and in politics. There is no reason the Chinese cannot make even greater advances in the next twenty-five years. Which is sort of the object of the game, isn’t it?
Posted by scorp on Oct 25, 2005 at 1:57 AM Exactly.
The Scorp has spoken and on this particular issue the Rabbit and the Scorp, stand shoulder to shoulder….............................Hear the gasps…...........If not for precisiely the same reasons, we are both of the opinion taht China is a lot better than Americans at least like to make out. The ridiculous and ill informed opinions of Jay Cline, are ridiculous, because China is for all its spots in great shape thankyou. They are going forward. America is not going forward. Rabbit knows Jay Cline and maybe Scorpy will disagree that the USA is not improving it’s economy, or it’s homeland security or its freedms, however slowly. China is, on all those fronts. China is not perfect, but with a lot less going for it in most respects, it is slowly, very slowly, improving it’s human rights situation. There have been set-backs, and the biggest is that the once shining example of American democracy has become shall we say, a little tarnished.
The thing is you have neither the ability to affect China or the right. dream on puny American.
you cannot even effect democratic change in small countries who are weak and reliant on you. Even your clanndestine efforts and they are legion, have all ended up disasters. Any country which has seen American interference in its history and which has a democracy or at least a stable and decent government has such despite US efforts not because of.
You puny ANT to think that the USA on its knees financially, bogged down in the Middle East in the midst of a widening conflict and increasing problems at home, you actually think you COULD do anything to China? That country which holds Massive US reserves and bonds by the way, which is a majopr supllier of SO much of what you take for granted. Foolish one, it is one thing to bombastically declare yourseves “Rulers of all the world”,it is another thing altogether to make good your threats.
AND another thing you cretin, JAY CLINE It is one thing to use a bit of HTML to clarify things and the small additions have been made courtesy of a few minutes Rabbit spent, ten exactly, finding a bit of easy to use info for others, and he. It was all very well being such a brainy HTML hero, from the start, but to now introduce the boxes is not only transparently childish one up-manship, it is very BLOODY irritating it breaks the flow of the page when trying to read and is an excuse to fill up the thread with re-quoting endlessly and it is Chiildish debating, we are beyond such mummery, we would like intelligent orderly deabte, minus avoidance and with an open mind if you have one, obviously not meant for you.
Would Jay like Rabbit to start posting with coloured words and Pretty boxes, with coloured backgrounds and he could almost certainly get some stupid moving smilies or something, but what would be the point of it? It is irritating and destroys readability.
Now the site masters have said they will be putting up HTML options soon, or maybe CSS, but they will be limiting it and so they should. Either stop using the annoying boxes, or we shall ask seamus to block them…................how does that fit your little red wagon?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 25, 2005 at 11:48 AM Rabbit can see that Anarcho-Sozi has pointed out to you also the obvious that China owns your ass Jay, so just bow and be polite.
It is VERY relevant too that China has not been invading everybody and threatening “REGIME CHANGE” as well as backing so many of the worlds worst despots. Not recently and not even in the short part of their history during which the United States of America has existed by that name.
SO to sum up. You have no moral right to dictate how China should conduct its internal affairs, you have no justification in any actual sense. You have no means of dictating China’s internal affairs, and by YOU Rabbit means the USA, you have neither the clandestine or overt military might to do it. Finally you not only have NO real economic power over CHINA, it weilds almost unlimited economic power over YOU if it so desired.
Luckily for you then that the CHINESE are an ancient and venerable race, and they will mostly just ignore American posturing and any lamebrained idiot ideas you may have of dicating anything to them.. they are a peaceful people who have no need or desire to expand, either their idealogical base, or their military influence.
Thank GOD for that. Thank God they are so sane, and sensible that they are themselvs working with vigor and determination to reduce their own impact on the world even as they have swelled to become a sizeable portion of the worlds population. ,
If you knew anything about the Chinese people, you would never be rude or stupid enough to speak of them with anything but respect and admiration.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 25, 2005 at 12:06 PM Anacho-Sozi said:
Let’s take a look at all of the military/covert ops engagements Amerika has been involved in since WWII in the name of stopping communism or any form of leftism:
Korea 1950-1953
Guatemala 1954
Vietnam 1958-1975
Cuba 1961
Indonesia 1965
Grenada 1983
Nicaragua-1980s
Italy- throughout the 1940s
Chile 1971
Venezuela 2002
Haiti 2004——————————— ;———————————&# #8212;——————————R 212;—.
Please show us a list of the wars China has been in, during which they were trying to help spread communism.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 25, 2005 at 12:15 PM But my real question from the article would be, how will slamming the door on American economic interests do anything to help the Chinese that are described as living in constant fear of the repressive Chinese government?
If you are going to advocate change, it damn well better actually change something.
Posted by Jay Cline on Oct 25, 2005 at 1:47 PM For all the banter on this one, I am rather astonished to see most opinion close.
We can not realistically force change to proceed any faster than it is in China. And Scorp rightly points out that social-historical change requires time. Exposure is the biggest instrument.
And while I have been as outspoken a critic of U.S. foriegn and domestic policy as any, I do think it is appropriate for governments in the world to push for more freedom within China. This attitude of respect for cultures generally benefits those priviledged in the status quo.
So I feel it is appropriate when AMNESTY Intls slams U.S. detention camps and when China is slammed for it’s the way it represses opposition.
And to return to the point of exposure. I worked in the airfreight business for many years, primarily on cargo flights to russia. One of the most remarkable things I heard of was the hope that people derived from the black market in Levi’s jeans and other American products.
A great deal of the Islamist fight is against the influence that such commercial exports have on other cultures. And part of that impact is a desire for freer expression. In this sense there really is not point served in slamming the door on American economic interest.
However just because there is no point in slamming the door on American economic interest, does not mean that foriegn companies doing business with China need to operate in any way they please in China and then hold the Chinese government responsible. Corps need to be held accountable for their own behavior regardless of a nations domestic policies. Thus they could lead by example in terms of pay, work hours, leave time, etc.. Show you can make a profit and be just.
Posted by Neruda on Oct 25, 2005 at 2:41 PM Debunking the myth. The author, G. Pascal Zachary, represents a common US point of view: Contempt and ignorance.
First off, the MSN dealbreaker: I am in China connected to the internet through China Telecom broadband. I just ran a search on MSN and Google for “freedom democracy” and came up with 3,279,487 entries on MSN and 43,100,000 entries on Google.
Secondly, GPZ’s closing point about the restrictive environment at the internet cafe: Signing in is standard procedure for EVERYBODY here.
GPZ’s opening point about the hotel chain CEO afraid to talk to the police about restricting the free enterprise of evil “fake” watch hawkers on public domain—GPZ displays an interesting logic here: “Because of the lack of freedom I am afraid to talk to the police about restricting these people’s freedom”). Nice. Very nice.
If you are going to approach China from a top-down, isolated ex-pat business point of view, you are going to get it all wrong. A poignant talking point over here: “We know everything about the US. They know nothing about us.” GPZ confirms this. A smart place to do business or negotiate politics from?
We need to reframe modern China:
—When looking at China’s internal policy, think about it from the perspective of community, that the individual is responsible to the welfare of the community as a whole. Community rights are first, and then individual rights. America is based on Individualism, the right of the individual.
—With so much dirty laundry of our own concerning human rights abuses, it is probably best that we show by example, as Neruda points out. As others pointed out, our glass house couldn’t withstand a tossed pebble. China has work to do, but so do we.
—China has a functioning, though limited democracy, with the National People’s Congress made up of 2,985 seats elected to five year terms by municipal, regional and provincial people’s congresses. Basically, the community selects the people who elect the officials. Parallel to our electoral college system.
—When thinking about China’s economic policy, consider that China had three separate yet integrated economic systems: Subsistence, Socialist and Capitalist. 65% of the population is rural, and 50% agricultural, so the economic considerations are different. In the US we have one economic system, Capitalism, and only 0.9% of the population agriculturally based . Poverty level in China is at 10%, the US is at 14%.
—Basic human rights..are you referring to a government which provides the basic needs of housing, food, education and affordable/free medical care? China, yes. US, maybe.
—If, when you think about human rights abuses, and think Tiananmen Square, also bring up the image of the Kwangju Massacre in Korea ten years earlier. Same situation, a student democracy protest, but in a US supervised government military police crackdown where Jimmy Carter signed off on the papers allowing the massacre to happen.
—When utilizing Tibet please address its poor political maneuvering with Russia and India, and the US and CIA involvement. US trained CIA operatives in a country are not there for a tea party. Native American policy anyone?
We Americans could use a good dose of healthy introspection, and some decent journalists who move out of the Special Economic Zones and upper echelon of China and start to look at China from the bottom up.
At base level, at the level of the Lao Bai Xing who are the majority of the population, China provides. If you know China, as Scorp and Rabbit seem to, you are able to see far beyond the underinformed propaganda and loaded words of journalists such as GPZ, and the Party line here, and can understand that for its shortcomings, China is rich in humanity and opportunity.
Posted by ejonsmith on Oct 26, 2005 at 4:01 AM Yes, The fact that so many of us from such radically diferrent backgrounds Rabbit and Scorpy is Radically diferrent HAVe such similar views on this matter is not really so suprising, China is a big country and it stands to reason a few of us will know them, even Americans are capable of understanding other cultures when they actually meet them without a gun in their own hands.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 26, 2005 at 11:36 AM Show you can make a profit and be just
Absolutely!
American companies doing business in other countries should be as liable in American courts for their behavior in those countries in accordance with American standards, as their operations are in this country.
As a child, we knew that when we played at someone else’s house, we had to follow not only their house rules, but our own house rules. It didn’t matter that we weren’t physically at home.
Good, just behavior is not relative to geography.
Posted by Jay Cline on Oct 26, 2005 at 5:08 PM —When looking at China’s internal policy, think about it from the perspective of community, that the individual is responsible to the welfare of the community as a whole. Community rights are first, and then individual rights. America is based on Individualism, the right of the individual.
.
This is where most of American’s understanding of China fails. China has a continuous cultural basis, spanning over four thousand years, that values social harmony even more than Americans value liberty.
It is pervasive at all levels of society, from sibling pecking order where there are very specific honorifics for oldest brother, second-oldest brother, oldest sister, etc, from business to business relationships where the supplier is schmoozed and flattered, from hierarchical social relationships of extreme patronage that are facilitated with “red gift envelopes” bearing money (payola) or other small gifts and favors, and from politics where success and power is used as a measure of a person’s luck and grace of the gods.
The tool for social control, peer and social pressure, is orders of magnitude greater than any American, child or adult, has experienced.
Expressions of independence are sternly dealt with in all social settings.
Posted by Jay Cline on Oct 26, 2005 at 5:19 PM —When utilizing Tibet please address its poor political maneuvering with Russia and India,
So, the victim is to blame for not having the wherewithal to effectively manage its relations with other great powers as it attempts to protect itself from another??
Posted by Jay Cline on Oct 26, 2005 at 5:23 PM -China has a functioning, though limited democracy, with the National People’s Congress made up of 2,985 seats elected to five year terms by municipal, regional and provincial people’s congresses. Basically, the community selects the people who elect the officials. Parallel to our electoral college system.
No, the Iranian model is more appropriate. Power and enfranchisement descend from above, like the mullahs vetting presidential candidates. Not from the people.
Just witness the current repression of the villagers of Taishi in the southern province of Guangdong, who are attempting to use current Chinese law to recall a locally elected official on charges of corruption. The Official Chinese response violates the very laws that are supposed to protect the villagers.
Posted by Jay Cline on Oct 26, 2005 at 5:30 PM With so much dirty laundry of our own concerning human rights abuses, it is probably best that we show by example, as Neruda points out. As others pointed out, our glass house couldn’t withstand a tossed pebble. China has work to do, but so do we.
Yes.
Posted by Jay Cline on Oct 26, 2005 at 5:31 PM If, when you think about human rights abuses, and think Tiananmen Square, also bring up the image of the Kwangju Massacre in Korea ten years earlier.
No. Two wrongs don’t make a right.
But Johnny hit me first!
So when Sally breaks Johnny’s arm, he has no right to complain?
Posted by Jay Cline on Oct 26, 2005 at 5:33 PM “But one thing was the same: If they were caught criticizing the government, or even breaking the petty rules that govern their social lives—such as the ban on meeting in formal associations that might touch on political and social issues—the American company would not intervene to help them.”
Why should an American company have any responsibilty for aiding an employee in China who breaks the law during their personal time in China? What do the social restrictions imposed by the culture, traditions, and people at large, and not as a function of State control, have to do with state sponsored human rights infringements?If an American is arrested during a violent anti-war protest in Washington, or for protesting outside the Republican National Convention, it is highly unlikely that their employer would intervene on their behalf.
The author makes it sound as if the “Danwei” is still in full force in modern China. It is long gone. That work unit model may have once controlled the social lives of its workers, but it is no longer the case for most Chinese workers; certainly not in Shanghai or Beijing.
Both the poitical naivete of the Chinese interviewees and the belief of the author that no one would take him to task for trying to pass off such rubbish is incredible.
China is not America. Look after your own house first.
Posted by laowai on Oct 26, 2005 at 10:34 PM Jay as always avoiding specifics and talking around in general metaphorical circles. Jay, you are just trolling and convincing nobody, why can’t you see that you need to occassionally back up your assertions with something other than bombast.?
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 27, 2005 at 4:48 AM Currently there are just about 100,000 foreigners living and working in China on an ongoing basis.
Foreigners like myself who make China our home for years know the real China and the real attitudes of the people here. Laowai in China actually have a clue about how this society works and is changing rapidly.
Some knee-jerk reporter comes here and seeks out the refuseniks and other dissidents to talk to just to have pre-formed opinions reconfirmed. That isn’t reporting, it’s propaganda.
I am geting tired of the misconceptions, lies, and propaganda spouted about China in the western media.
Americans delude themselves about Human Rights in their own country. The average American has about the same freedom as the average Chinese person. The propaganda machine in the US just convinces the average Yank that they are freer than others in other countries.
Maybe there are no elections similar to those in the U.S. in China. But over half of Yanks don’t vote, so what does that say about the country’s democracy.
How’s Joseph Padillia doing in the US these days?So Warren Buffet or another business leader, or a syndicated columnist like Novak or some other hyped reporter visits China for a week and becomes an instant China expert..
Posted by laowai on Oct 27, 2005 at 2:13 PM laowai objects,
The average American has about the same freedom as the average Chinese person.
So, have the Chinese authorities freed that one guy in Taishi? You know, the one who, in strict accordance with Chinese law, was attempting to get an elected village leader recalled because of allegations of corruption?
Or how about that
blind social activist who blew the whistle on official abuses under China’s one-child policy in the eastern province of Shandong was beaten by a group of men led by local officials Monday when he tried to leave his house to greet visitors.
as reported by Radio Free Asia?
Yeah, I’d say we’re close to parity on the whole freedom bit.
Posted by Jay Cline on Oct 27, 2005 at 3:03 PM So, have the Chinese authorities freed that one guy in Taishi? You know, the one who, in strict accordance with Chinese law, was attempting to get an elected village leader recalled because of allegations of corruption?
So Jay have they decided to recognise international human rights in the US concentration camps, and torture camps around the world? Theer are of course plenty of activists within America who are imprisoned, Rabbit feels it is the duty of Americans to bring these to the attention of Jay Decline. Rabbit is more concerned about a nation which has as a president a man who is trying to stop an anti torture bill from passing. A country which has reneged on all human rights and environmental laws ever passed by the world community.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 29, 2005 at 8:32 AM Oh and Jay, whether or not China has human rights abuses is not the point sunshine. It is whether or not the USA is in any position to point the finger. You are not actually doing anything for your cause by pointing out that China is emerging from a form of repression which is being adopted by the USA instead. The Chinese government is a repressive and paranoid institution, but it is nonetheless set imovably on a course of increasing freedom and democracy. The very act of developing the country makes this inevitable. The thing is the Chinese have a history tens of times older than the plastic upstart Nayion of dreamers you represent. They have the credit in the bank of history to claim peaceful intentions.
Something the USA decidely lacks. Do you realise that the USA has the distinction of being involved in more wars than any other nation in recored history.
Tell us that is for everybody’s good. go on Jay Decline, tell us how that proves America is the great defender of democracy and freedom and that is why they have started so many wars.
Alternatively keep on giving everybody an object lesson in the decline of American morality.
Aren’t you glad that you inspired Rabbit to start using HTML to Highlight such important info as Jay DECLINE.
Here you are JayDecline,
How about another American opinion.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 29, 2005 at 8:51 AM Yeah, but Jay Cline is right, a bit… never thought I’d find myself agreeing with him!!
We’ve got to do something “about” China - but what??
Of course, if China resorts to undermining all Western currency… then we would have to have military or economic retaliation against them.
I just wonder how that’s going to be possible, seeing as both countries have nukes?? Though?
World War III… or the second Cold War??
How are we going to stop all this???
International socialist revolution, I should think. (Now here is where I DON’T agree with Jay!) The ordinary Chinese people don’t make any profit out of their relationship with america, most are miserably exploited and their babies aborted.
Posted by Liz on Nov 2, 2005 at 6:38 AM Rabbit knows the Chinese as indicated here, and finds them as a nation far less threatening than America, and the case rests on history.
The rest of the world, starting with Iraq, then Venezuala, Iran and others too are dumping their US resrves and converting to Euros, why shouldn’t the Chinese? Bill Gates has dumped his 46.6 Billions dollars US and put the lot in Euros. Liz the world and especially China doesn’t owe the USA the maintainance of it’s economy, at the expense of either World Peace, or it’s own economy. Everyone one who can will abandon the sinking dollar. Those who are stuck, will be the average American.
The whole thing comes down to one country which seems to claim a natural born right to decide for others, it has shown itselfprepared to use military means to eforce it’s economic desires, so expect Economic means to be used to stop the military. That is more likely to be the Chinese way, thank God. The USA is ready to launch a world war to protect it’s artificial pirate economy. The world would rather suffer a global economic collapse than face a war such as that the USA is on the brink of lauching, in an attempt to enforce it’s economic will.
Posted by Rabbit on Nov 2, 2005 at 8:20 AM Liz,
Unfortunately, I don’t think there is a whole lot that can be done. It’s like a train wreck that is about to happen. Regardless of who one thinks should be wearing the black cowboy hat, both countries are are dynamic and strong enough that neither will collapse simply to please my or Rabbit’s fantasies.
My hope is that Deng’s economic reform, which has taken root with a vengeance, will create social forces to challenge the authority of the Central government. And the village of Taishi is a good example. It is part of an experiment in several parts of the country to bring democracy, if only at the local level. Unfortunately, Beijing needs to understand the chaotic forces that democracy brings. You can’t just put the lid back on, as their reaction to Taishi indicates.
But, nationalism in China is strong, and the Chinese, after thousands of years, still see themselves at the Center of the world. They don’t like the challenges that a strong global America presents and they are not afraid to throw theor gauntlet into the fire.
Sorry for the pessimism
Posted by Jay Cline on Nov 2, 2005 at 1:32 PM Breaking my new policy not to react to the provocations and idiocies spouted by JC:
nationalism in China is strong, and the Chinese, after thousands of years, still see themselves at the Center of the world. They don’t like the challenges that a strong global America presents
Nowhere in the world is nationalism stronger than in the USA - though they themselves seem to prefer the euphemism “patriotism”. And though the country is just over 200 years old, they *already* see themselves as the centre of the world - hell, of the universe! (“already” is misleading. I can remember my first encounter with a loud, ignorant American tourist in ... hmm… must have been the mid 1960s in Budapest: “Hey, Mabel - how much is that in *real* money?”)
And not only do they not *like* - they do not *accept* even the slightest challenge to their absolute hegemony over the planet. Not just the planet. The official policy of the Pentagon is no longer just to control outer space militarily but to “own it”.
Back to the silent treatment for JC…
Posted by Anarcho-Sozi on Nov 2, 2005 at 3:18 PM Actually, AS seems to be pretty dern proud of being a European. But that is ok.
I was not criticizing the Chinese for being proud of their heritage (my wife would kill me if I did!) but merely as an observation of Chinese motivation.
I regret AS’ only real encounter with Americans are tourists. Not that it is bad to be a tourist, but it does cast a rather one-dimensional pall on AS’ stereotypes. Of course, he only notices the occasional loud mouth variety….so I guess he can be forgiven his provincial view of the world…
As far as space, since America is the land of blatant capitalisms, somebody has to own it (sorry, being a little facetious there..)
But, seriously, space is very much a strategic interest, not only for America, but also for China. Given that I prefer American values to Chinese values (oops, don’t tell my wife, please), given that space will be a major battlefield in the very near future, ...
Go Team!
Posted by Jay Cline on Nov 2, 2005 at 3:50 PM How is it that JC thinks he knows about the extent of my familiarity with the Empire and its citizens? The wall’s been down for 16 years now (well not quite - next week to be precise), and I just so happen to have spent a few years in Canada and the US. Unlike him, I’m not in the habit of spouting off about places I’ve never been to.
Sorry to David in Canada for mentioning the two countries in the same breath, since despite all the (largely cultural) similarities they are two quite different nations - much to the advantage of Canada. Of course, Canadians are aware of this fact, unlike most Americans, who probably couldn’t even identify Canada on the globe.
A classmate of my son just got back from a year at a US high school. She tells some great stories about questions she got asked by her fellow pupils. My favourite: on a lovely moon-lit night, another kid asked her if we have the moon here in Germany, too! Seriously… to which she answered: no, you guys landed there, not us. You own it.
(I saw the following results of a recent poll somewhere on the web: apparently, 40 per cent of Americans think that Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden are the same person.)
I wonder how long JC lived in China - must have been quite a while to be able to spout off such absolutisms…
There I go breaking my new policy again…
Posted by Anarcho-Sozi on Nov 2, 2005 at 4:23 PM Quite some time, in fact.
Of course it helps that my home in America is essentially Chinese territory…
At least, culturally speaking.
Posted by Jay Cline on Nov 2, 2005 at 5:44 PM We must all be careful of judging a group by the actions of a few.
For example, some time ago a dude from Germany brought his girlfriend on vacation to Florida. She was killed at a rest stop. The guy described the assailant as a young black man who was robbing them.
A week later, the police arrested a guy for the murder. No, not a young black man, but the vacationing German.
Seems he was under the mistaken impression that America was a violent place with roving bands of black marauders and thought he could get away with murder.
I certainly wouldn’t judge all Germans on the basis of that one man. I have also spent a considerable time in Europe and though Germans are often reserved and taciturn, and have absolutely no comprehension of the British notion of “queuing” in line, I have found the German people to be a kind and generous and fun loving people.
Posted by Jay Cline on Nov 2, 2005 at 6:16 PM I highly recommend the Spring Fasching season and the autumn harvest fests (and I am not talking Munich here!)
Posted by Jay Cline on Nov 2, 2005 at 6:28 PM Anarcho-Sozi,
Apology not required but accepted for mentioning the two countries in the same breath . Canada and the USA are next door neighbours but they are indeed quite different nations . The differences are good. I have business dealings with Americans every day. Mostly from down south in Georgia. Good people. Most of them think that Canadians talk too fast.
Since we are trading cultural stories I will share a bit of mine.
Anarcho-Sozi, I wanted to share this with you on the Fundamental History Lesson thread but never got the chance. So I share it now.
My family is Mennonite . My Dad was born in Saporoshje, Russia in 1943. Long story short, at the conclusion of the war, his immediate family were fortunate to end up in the British Zone of Germany and eventually immigrated to Canada. Some relatives immigrated to South America too. Some relatives were left behind, in Russia, Poland and what became East Germany.
My Oma and Opa (grandparents) were very happy when the Wall came down and Germany was reunified. There were happy reunions with relatives that they had not seen in many years.
Posted by David in Canada on Nov 2, 2005 at 9:51 PM Rabbit struggles, with the wonky computer,..................no more can work…............Holds bits and stabs the keyboard with teeth but no…...............Electrons running everywhere…...stop it .come back….the computer metamorhposis happens and this is number five try in between boots and swaps etc.
Jay says It’s like a train wreck that is about to happen.
This one is anyway.
It is interesting to Rabbit that both JC <i.claim</i> to have Chinese wives…..............this is an interesting development, is it not punters?
Posted by Rabbit on Nov 3, 2005 at 11:14 AM Page 1 of 1 pages -
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