Democrats: It’s the War

more...................LOOK AT THE DATE!

“I have to assume now, that you must also believe the first attempt to topple the Twin Towers in 1993 was carried out by, or with the knowledge, consent and/or help of the U.S. Government.  Do you have any information or speculation on THAT event?”

Posted by johndoraemi on Oct 10, 2005 at 7:29 PM

How exactly does Natty claim Rodriguez is a hoax?

Let us have a look at what we looked at once before.

An introduction to William Rodriguez, Natalie.
---------------------------------------------

WORLD TRADE CENTER RESCUE HERO SUES BUSH AND OTHERS UNDER RICO STATUTE,
ALLEGES WILLFUL COMPLICITY IN ATTACKS THAT KILLED 3,000.
By Margaret Atheling Rowe
PHILADELPHIA, PA, OCTOBER 22, 2004

On September 11, 2001, William Rodriguez, a maintenance worker at the World Trade Center in Manhattan, single-handedly rescued fifteen people. The only employee with the master key to the North Tower staircases, he led firefighters up the stairs, unlocking doors as he went, aiding in the evacuation of hundreds of additional people who, but for his efforts, might have perished. Although his job description did not include saving lives, Rodriguez re-entered the building three times after the first plane struck, and was the last person to exit the North Tower alive. He survived the collapse of the North Tower by diving beneath a fire truck to avoid the avalanche of concrete and steel. After onsite treatment for his injuries, Rodriguez plunged right back into rescue efforts at the site. At dawn the next morning, Rodriguez returned to Ground Zero from his home in Jersey City, to continue to aid in rescue efforts.

Later, Rodriguez became an unofficial spokesman for survivors, among other things helping to secure an amnesty for undocumented aliens, many of them Latinos, and in the creation of the World Trade Center Memorial Fund. Although he lost his job of 19 years and his means of livelihood — even falling into homelessness for a time — Rodriguez has continued in the three years since 9-11 to continue his work in honor of the heroes and the victims of that awful day, as president of the Hispanic Victims Group, Director of the 9/11 United Services Group, and member of the Family Advisory Council of the Lower Manhattan Development Corporation.

Now this native of Puerto Rico and remarkable American hero is taking his 9-11 activism to an even higher level. He has commenced, as Plaintiff, a federal court lawsuit against George W. Bush, Richard B. Cheney, Donald H. Rumsfeld and others alleging that they and others were complicit in the 9-11 attacks, and either planned the attacks, or had foreknowledge of the attacks and permitted them to succeed, in order to exploit a “New Pearl Harbor” to launch wars against Afghanistan and Iraq. (The phrase “New Pearl Harbor” comes from a declaration of principles by the neo-conservative “Project for the New American Century,” in which it is proposed as an event needed to steel American public opinion to support the overthrow of Saddam Hussein, and U.S. military domination of the Middle East.)

Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 11, 2005 at 4:58 AM

Attorney Berg acknowledges that Rodriguez’s action will shock and offend many Americans. But he urges critics to read the detailed complaint, posted on the internet at HYPERLINK “http://www.911forthetruth.com” www.911forthetruth.com, before forming conclusions. “The ‘Official Story’ of what actually took place on 9-11 is a lie,” Berg flatly maintains. “We do not pretend to have put together a full and definitive account of how, and by whom, the attacks were carried out. But information reported in mainstream media, and viewed in the light of common sense and the laws of physics, demonstrate that the ‘Official Story,’ examined closely, is not credible. The ‘Official Story’ contains an alarming number of inconsistencies and implausibilities. The major media have reported many of the raw facts, but have studiously avoided analysis, because doing so would reveal that the government is lying to us.

The 9-11 Commission, a suspect collection of government and intelligence insiders, restated without question or examination all essential elements of the ‘Official Story’ of the actual events of 9-11. It failed almost completely to refute, or even to mention, the great body of evidence that suggests the ‘Official Story’ cannot be true, and it failed completely to hold anyone accountable. From the foregoing facts, it ought to be obvious that a cover-up, or a “limited hang-out” admitting only bureaucratic mistakes for which no one is to be held accountable, has taken place and is continuing.”

Berg maintains that many prominent figures in politics, the military and the mass media consider the ‘Official Story’ of 9-11 to be untrue. But while the truth is emerging bit by bit, thanks to anonymous whistleblowers and researchers posting on the internet, to date no one with the stake in being a Senator, a Presidential candidate, or a media celebrity has found the courage to risk being ridiculed as a “tinfoil-hat-wearing conspiracy theorist.” Berg points out that the only Senator who has dared to publicly question even parts of the ‘Official Story,” Senator Mark Dayton of Minnesota, has received threats ominous enough to impel him to shut down his Washington, D.C. office until after the coming election.

“Some facts cannot be denied,” says Berg. “Clearly, 9-11 was carried out by more than one person. Therefore, by definition there was a conspiracy. What we’re arguing is that the true conspirators have abused their enormous power and the trust of the American people to concoct and to sell to the world a false conspiracy theory, to justify war and mass murder for economic and political gain. Since the neo-cons, allied with the President, said in almost so many words that they wished for a New Pearl Harbor, why dismiss out of hand an allegation that they used their undeniably sufficient power to actually bring it about? Why has there been no full and transparent investigation? Indeed, isn’t it shocking that the federal government grabbed up all of the physical evidence, and that no police authority has conducted a true criminal investigation into 3,000 homicides? Instead of due process of law, government officials and the mass media convicted Osama bin Laden, and had names and photos of his 19 accomplices on the internet, literally within hours of the attacks.

Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 11, 2005 at 5:00 AM

The truth is that there is no definitive evidence that there were any Arabs on those planes, and even less proof concerning the supposed identities of the alleged hijackers.” Berg notes too that a poll taken by the respected Zogby organization in August 2004 disclosed that half the population of New York, including such unlikely “conspiracy theorists” as those who identify themselves as “very conservative” and as Evangelical Christians, believe the federal government had foreknowledge of the attacks, and knowingly failed to prevent them.

Asked why he decided to bring this controversial lawsuit, Rodriguez explains that, having survived the World Trade Center disaster when so many did not, he feels he must learn the truth of what happened on that day. “If what the government has told us about 9-11 is a lie,” he says, “somebody has to take action to reveal the truth. Since that plane hit the North Tower on 9-11, like it or not my life’s meaning has become to reduce the number of victims, and the amount of suffering from those attacks. If suing President Bush is what I have to do to accomplish that, so be it.”

Rodriguez notes that the events of 9-11 are directly related to the deaths of thousands of people in two ongoing wars, attacks on Constitutional liberties in the United States, the abuse and torture of detainees around the world, and the use by the United States of depleted uranium and other weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

-------------------------------------------------

Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 11, 2005 at 5:16 </i>

Natty is Batty.  A genuine Moonbat.

There is a big conspiracy you are right Nat, by an increasing portion of the worlds population, but it is a looser one and the opposite to the sort of conspiracy your masters are perpetrating.

Your lot meanwhile are going Down Down Deeper and Down.

In every way imaginable.

Send us a postcard from HELL when you get back home.

Knowing as we do that Natty ignores so much of the relevant stuff Rabbit posts, this doesn’t mean she doesn’t ignore others’ too.  John again, who was of course ignored.

hear a lot of silence on all that 9-11 evidence I posted yesterday.

Posted by johndoraemi on Oct 12, 2005 at 8:14 PM

Makes you wonder if she is just trying to wack the Rabbit, which she has never done yet anyway, definitely a Warner Brothers fan.

Whit posted the following:

Natalie,

To which the Batty Nat said:

Thanks, whit, I was especially impressed by the link labeled:

ITT, if you read this, could you please reinstitute making links clickable for us html dummies?

That was it, her response to Whit’s p[oints and sources.

Better than usual, but frankly she might just as well have ignored it.

The following is reposted to show how balanced rabbit is.  The is the only useful or intelligent thing Natalie has contribiuted, but everyone like it.

Hooray for Natalie..............

Go to tinyurl.com, David, to shorten those links.  I think the problem arises when the link is longer than the width of the entry box. 

http://tinyurl.com/8a9ap

Hooray for Natty the batty Vampiress.

What would happen if Tinyurl stopped working altogether?  Would all our Tinyurl links be broken?

......................hmm......?

Natty tried this:

“Why was metallic debris found 8 miles from the crash site of the plane that went down in Penn Secondary Debris Field)? They said it went straight down and left a small hole in the ground,” wondered Haupt. “If they found metallic debris from the plane 8 miles away it was either shot down or a bomb exploded in the plane.”

Posted by Natalie on Oct 16, 2005 at 5:40 PM

Rabbit replied:

Natalie once again shoots her as yet earthbound plane with another hole.  (Rabbit does not like to think of Natalie shooting her feet off)

Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 16, 2005 at 9:08 PM

This is your guy Natalie, even your own witnesses working against your theory.

Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 16, 2005 at 9:12 PM

Anyway, it is established that debris was found at least 8 miles from the crsh site of flight 93.  No?  OK Some more.

Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 16, 2005 at 9:17 PM

SPLURT......................

The following gives an idea of the inderlying, snide innuendos which are the Bat’s stock in trade, and the Rabbit’s pleasant and easy going nature.

Rabbit,

I’ve got somewhat of a concession and somewhat of an apology to make to you.

I don’t have time right now, but will continue ASAP.

I can do the marketing thing too, see?  ;-)

Posted by Natalie on Oct 17, 2005 at 12:10 PM

The suspense is making me crazy.

OK. Crazier.

Posted by David in Canada on Oct 17, 2005 at 6:39 PM
That’s not a marketing thing Natalie, why always so cynical. It is meant as a courtesy when Rabbit posts thus and it is taken as one when you do also.

No apologies necessary and it is not a concession. So long as you pick up the ESSENTIAL matter of important facts, eg: Witnesses, upon your anticipated return.

Rabbit will miss Nat, but will find something to do in the emantime, have no fear.  Stay safe and TRY to be good.

Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 17, 2005 at 8:38 PM

Now sad as it is, Rabbit must say that even on the one time The Natty did a good thing (See above), she was yet doing a bad thing.

The Tiny url to which she lately linked was noted by Dave and Rabbit as follows.  pertinant it is because it is the source of Rabbit’s occassioanl refernce to her propensity for using human shields for her own protection.

Quoting Natalie : “ It occurs to me that the Iraqis, even after all they’ve been through, are more positive about their future than are liberals in America, Europe, and Canada. “

Posted by David in Canada on Oct 18, 2005 at 12:59 AM

We’ve been around the Blackberry Bush many times with Natty, and this is as relevant now as then.

Rabbit is a man first an Australian second.

Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 18, 2005 at 7:44 PM

I think you may be just trying to run up the post count, Rabbit.  :~)

Why don’t you simply give a link to the original thread and let people read the whole thing for themselves?  You’re leaving out a lot of context, and only confusing things, no doubt to your advantage.  You seem to be trying to say that I ignore certain things.  But when I do address something, you say “that little detail is not important....why are you focusing on it?.....you haven’t proven a thing” (paraphrasing)

One thing that people need to know when reading this thread and others I’ve commented on, is that I simply don’t have a lot of time to devote to addressing and debunking or agreeing with everything that’s presented.  I actually admire someone who is self-employed and has arranged it so they apparently have tons of time between tasks to debate on the Internet.  I am sadly not fortunate enough, or perhaps not clever enough to be so employed. 

However, I do consider myself superior in one respect, and that is in the ability to discern quality information and reliable sources from mere pretenders.  To wit:  (more from oilempire)

infowars.com

The Alex Jones radio show seems to be an electronic vacuum cleaner that publishes virtually any claim regardless of whether there is real evidence or not. Some of the hoaxes pushed by this show include his claim that Gary Webb was stalked by government agents on his balcony before he was supposedly murdered (in reality: there wasn’t a balcony on his house and his family is completely convinced he really did commit suicide).

......Infowars has been one of the worst examples of promoting fake evidence.

Now this scathing critique of one of Rabbit’s favorite “news” sources comes from people basically friendly to the general Prisonplanet POV about believing that official stories are mostly LIES.  Can you imagine if a genuine news professional schooled in source and fact checking, whos career depended on “getting it right”, somehow decided to analyze Jones’s work?  As Liz might say....."Oh dear”.

R«bit is merely ignoring the Natty actually, your psots have ceased to be relevant and after several months of your failing to make even astart on intelligent debate, I’m sick of you.  Nobody else gives a shit either, you are irrellevant and just won’t face up to it.

Never has the Rabbit said this to anyone, but here to you, but I will not even waste my time reading your posts Natty, you ceased to be releavnt a long time ago.  too late to dribble oin about issues long dead, you ran away after the last post above, so waht good are you, just because you pop up like a disease on anew thread?  Rabbit doesn;t care about you anymore and nor does anyone else it seems.

Rabbit may yet post some more of the old things you ignored, as a “cheap exercise in self justification”. He has actually earned the right to do so, slimy toad..

In the meantime, he is ignoring your babble, out of spite. If anyone else decides it is worth a reply, like it has maybe moved someone a bit, Rabbit will happily re-engage the issues you fiddle around peripherally with.  In the meantime, Rabbit will persist in the current strategy of ignoring you as a complete robot shill. Whilst occasionally posting ridicule of you, as he sifts through your nonsense while preparing a display out of the bones of your mostly ad-hominem attacks,.  You are goping to be a star attraction in a Museum, Cow..........Bat.  Moo Moo Flap Flap.

Oh and Natty, who doesn’t read much of anything anytime, is ignoring three months of details relating to issues she now re-invents.

IT HAS ALL BEEN DEALT WITH!

Nothing changes the fact that you RAN AWAY from this debate after covering all the ground you are now trying to re-visit.  Dead and buried that is Natty.  The undead, that is Natty.

I guess you want more of your humiliation repeated then, Moonbat.

A news site prints the news, and Natty, the Prison Planet, has been dealt with above, yopur ignorance is illustratrated above, you didn’t even know the difference betweenAlan Jonesd and Prison Planet, it is above.  You are just spouting bull off the top of your puny mind, and have proven two months ago that you8 have never even logged on to Prison Planet, or rense.  You are espousing the same dimwit opinions about those sites, which PROVE you could never once have even logged onto either site, and you expect top be taken seriously.?

Rabbit just re-posted the answer to your first attempt at such mental contortionas and you dare to reply with the same game?

IDIOT.

Duh....Duh duh!

You are slower than justice, slutbrain.

You are a very stupid bitch.

Yes that isn’t nice.  Nor are you.!

More reposts, to show what you ran way from and are here trying to re-invent.

This guy has met you before Natalie.  <i>Time and time again, when I come across close-minded Bush supporters, I witness the effects of an unexplainable phenomenon: a highly dangerous variation of HIV – a condition I call the Hypocrisy & Illogic Virus.  Strangely, the most severe symptoms of this condition seem to manifest themselves during any and all discussions of the events of 9/11, The disease is easily diagnosed by the appearance of two disabling features: the need to approach all issues of national importance with an air of shameful hypocrisy, and the absolute inability to use any form of logic during discussions of such matters Collectively, people afflicted with this disorder approach 9/11 as one person. They all blindly believe what they have been told by their government.  They all adamantly refuse to listen to any questions that have been raised about inconsistencies in the official version that simply don’t make sense.  And if they engage in any dispute about these discrepancies, their arguments are illogical to an extreme, and they are simply unable to follow any rational argument to its conclusion.  The sad reality is that there is no way to convince these brain-washed believers that there may be something more to the story of 9/11 than what they have been told.  That’s not too surprising, since most of these people still buy into the Bush/PNAC reasons for invading Iraq. They blindly accept whatever they are told and close their minds tightly to any other information, no matter how factual.  They cannot be reached. There is simply no way. The disease is far too endemic to treat with any ordinary approach.  They believe as they do, and that’s all there is to it. Read the rest, he challenges you the same way Rabbit does, he is not anybody you have so far disparaged, and nor is his site.

Posted by GhostRabbit on Oct 24, 2005 at 6:26 AM</i>

How does it feel being subjected to tricks as low if not as revolting as those which conform to your SOP?

Rabbit has just been following some of your links to find that far from discrediting people, many of your stupid efforts have done no more than show how independant and intelligent are poeple like David Ray Griffin, and many others of those who have spoken out.

Now Rabbit is in the position of having to recommend that readers follow Natty’s links, even though she is a Lying Shill. many of her links, put some of the sources so far quoted by Rabbit, into a very good light, if one but ignores the attempt by the Vampire to spin things.

You are like Liz said a waste of money if someone is paying you for this effort.

Now Natalie starts talking about LSD?  What nonsense is this? You now would mention drugs in connection with the names of entirely honest and respected men with no reason or context whatsoever.  HOW DARE YOU.”

Now ....................Witnesses........... Natalie, if you are incapable of dicussing basic physics without claiming it is too technical for you to understand.  Let us discuss people, who they were and what they say they saw, and how much their differnet stories converge on one important detail.  Explosions of BOMBS, before and after the Planes hit the WTCs.  This will relate back to all the technical evidence of explosives, you have so far ignored, but it is there for others to follow. Others who will follow you natalie, perhaps rooting for you for a while, hoping you will support their beliefs against this upstart Rabbit.  Come now you must put up a more inspiring effort, you are an embarrassment to the cause of willful ignorance. Even they can see that, and some of your followers are faltering already, saying as you are about to do, “,i>What witnesses is he talking about?”, Natalie might say there are no such witnesses, it is all a conspiracy theory lie.  Or she might say they are paid “Bush Haters”, Anti-Bush liars who have been brainwashed by Iranian terrorists?

..
You do not have the moral stature in this debate due to the avoidance and refusal to acknowledge so much that has been directly addressed to you, and which refferred to FACTS of some consequence. You lack the stature due to such lowly behaviour, to dictate the subject at will.  We are not interested in people but in the facts.  Rabbit has said it before to you stupid woman.........What qualifications does one need to tell the truth?

<b.WITNESSES</b>
</i>

The first reply to this came in this thread a couple of posts since.  ie: A couple of days ago. Then she starts squawking that Rabbit ignores her posts.  HA!

Your history Natty.

O.K., Rabbit, tell me more about witnesses.  But when you say I’ve ignored everything you say, I don’t think that is accurate.  I’ve taken you to task on several of the points you yourself have brought up.  Speed of collapse, concrete to dust, why columns wouldn’t be left standing, etc.  But when I press you on something, you say things like “why are you obsessed with this small point.  It’s unimportant in the whole context” (paraphrasing)

Natalie has already given up the game.  Did we see that she has:  <i>I’ve read that even folks of your persuasion don’t think his suit is helping their cause.

You would have read that exactly where Nat?  Rodriguez witness testimony which has been given officially, but withheld, and has been given repeatedly and with backing witness testimony from the first day, is not considered to be helping the cause of proving explosives were used? 

</i>

Natty a sensible Rabbit who doesn’t value your mind at all, and whom has already been wacking you about the court like a squash ball rather than an opponent, is not inclined to keep dancing about the Blackberry bush with you, since it is easier he is more likely to just point out that you are no longer his debating partner, but an undead soul. A mind which has no other reason to exist but as a foil for Rabbit’s petty, private amusement.

Again thankyou for giving so freely of your self for the sake of Rabbit’s Shill, Troll and Special Moron Museum.

Now if you wish to remain here we must advise that the Garbage is collected every tuesday, and anyone clinging on will be left to expand with the next mulch mix.

Rabbit accidentally read Natty’s last popst and can see the usual bullshit.

NO context was omitted clown, you didn’t post anything between the examples given, you sucked out as always when the going gets tough and claiming it is out of context is total bullshit.  You had no reply, that was the pouint cow.  Too late to be sorry you sucked out again.  ou di and that ids history.  Nothig out of context in that.  FOOL

Natty Rabbit was about to post a refutation of your last post, but there is nothing to refute.  !!!

You have made spurious claims, ad-hominem attacks and presented totally unfounded opinion. 

Even when you make an effort it is easy to crush your flimsy puke, but in this instance there is nothing except venom to speak of.  TYou sure are a poisonous toad when the lies don’t fly aren’t you?

Oh and Natty Rabbit has given links to the original thread about four times before now.  He is only re-posting for your benefit.  DUMBO!

You are really the bottom of the barrel of Shills Natty, you ain’t even worth Rabbit’s time anymore.  Which is why I only wack you idly and without even looking these days.  heh babe how does it feel to be struggling even to keep up with an argument where the protagonmist is no longer even listening to you?

You are the lowly, rotten apple in the bottom of the barrel.  Let a rodent tell you, there is always a reason why one apple is the last to be chosen.

Rabbit declares Natalie the Shill to be .........COMPOST!

Oh and the detail that a few dozen words of the Nat’s were excluded from this re-post, is not important.  The content of those few posts is clear and obviously alluded to in the replies, and there was nothing else said which wasn’t alluded to.

You were a Jaywalker on the road of truth then Natty as you are now,.

COMPOST

Now come on, Lume, you’re imagining what you think Rabbit was intending by his post.  He said no such thing as “I challenge you to debunk the fact that this fire engineer’s complaints support Griffin’s theory.” He simply challenged me to debunk Manning. (I think) After reading his article IN CONTEXT, I realized I had no quarrel with Manning, only with the implication left by Rabbit that this particular engineer endorsed the implosion theory.  Whether Rabbit intended that or not, I thought it important, given the context of the discussion and the lack of clarity by Rabbit and the article he cited, to make clear that Manning does not.

Bill Manning in context.  Note that he specifically states that his theory is based on questionable fire-proofing techniques, not on explosive charges, and has issues with several entities besides FEMA:

“However, respected members of the fire protection engineering community are beginning to raise red flags, and a resonating theory has emerged: The structural damage from the planes and the explosive ignition of jet fuel in themselves were not enough to bring down the towers. Rather, theory has it, THE SUBSEQUENT CONTENTS FIRES ATTACKING THE QUESTIONABLY FIREPROOFED LIGHTWEIGHT TRUSSES AND LOAD-BEARING COLUMNS DIRECTLY CAUSED THE COLLAPSES in an alarmingly short time. Of course, in light of there being no real evidence thus far produced, this could remain just unexplored theory.

The frequency of published and unpublished reports raising questions about the steel fireproofing and other fire protection elements in the buildings, as well as their design and construction, is on the rise. The builders and owners of the World Trade Center property, the Port Authority of New York-New Jersey, a governmental agency that operates in an accountability vacuum beyond the reach of local fire and building codes, has denied charges that the buildings’ fire protection or construction components were substandard but has refused to cooperate with requests for documentation supporting its contentions.”

To summarize, I don’t think it likely that Bill Manning would be called as a witness for the prosecution in the matter of “the alternative theories community” v GWB.

Posted by Natalie on Oct 29, 2005 at 10:05 PM
All that stuff is vaguely interesting, Nat, but it’s all pretty much bye the bye.  The fact under contention here is not whether Manning agrees in any general way with Griffin, or Rabbit likewise agrees with Griffin, or Griffin with Manning or Manning with Rabbit or me with you; but with whether the steel beams were hauled away lickety-split to China without any skilled teams of assessors sent in with notebooks, lasers and measuring sticks to make what are uncontroversially routine and essential examinations and measurements of any unexpected catastrophe approaching a fraction of this magnitude.  It seems that we all are in agreement about that.  Time to move on, Natalie, dear.

You seem old enough to realize
gotcha games are a futile exercise.

You wrote:

Now come on, Lume, you’re imagining what you think Rabbit was intending by his post.  He said no such thing as “I challenge you to debunk the fact that this fire engineer’s complaints support Griffin’s theory.” He simply challenged me to debunk Manning.<i>

No, I am just repeating what Rabbit has repeatedly said about his own intentions.  Yes, he did simply challenge you to debunk Manning

<i>(I think) After reading his article IN CONTEXT, I realized I had no quarrel with Manning...<>

ipso facto.

<i>...only with the implication left by Rabbit that this particular engineer endorsed the implosion theory.

It is your inference to make. As to whether it is reasonable to infer it is something that Rabbit was implying, again, Rabbit has repeatedly said that he is only interested in arguing facts and not opinions.  He presented such a fact for consideration in the context of that particular exchange.  That in itself is one of the outstanding contextual themes and motifs of this entire conversation.  If you doubt me, reread this thread and count the times he has said it.  It should be easy since he usually types the words fact and opinion in CAPITALS for EMPHASIS.

My inference from the style and character of your argumentation is you are being much too single-mindedly partisan.  This is not a court of law, it is a consensual conversation.  In any case, It’s always absolutely essential to keep your mind as objective as possible in debate.  Being only able to see your own side is tantamount to ceding a priori, but with infinitely more humiliation.  If you can lose the taking sides completely, I guarantee, you’re in for a sublime treat.

<i>Whether Rabbit intended that or not, I thought it important to make clear that Manning does not.<i>

Your opinion and welcome to it.  That and $4.65 will get you a viente mocha frappaccino at Starbucks.  Treat yourself, you deserve it.

Posted by luminous beauty on Oct 30, 2005 at 12:37 AM

Natalie:

Posted by luminous beauty on Oct 30, 2005 at 11:06 AM

BTW, Lume, if you are reading this, what you said immediately after this posting above, made Rabbit fall in love with your mind.  You were henceforth his friend.

You are just spouting bull off the top of your puny mind, and have proven two months ago that you8 have never even logged on to Prison planet…

Actually I did log on to the planet, quite a while ago while trying to find out where you were getting all the rubbish about Barbara Olson being alive.  (and yes, I understand that PP is something of a clearing house of information, but someone has to be responsibe for deciding what to link to, and what to to print on the site.  I assume that someone is Alex Jones)

What came out near the top of the search list for Barbara Olson being alive?  You guessed it....Prisonplanet.com.  I believe I posted a link to the story at the time.  I suppose that was on the radioactive wounds thread.

Then I went to the supermarket and saw the cover of the STAR or one of those claiming that aliens had once abducted some celebrity and that explains why they’re so weird.

Then I thought to myself.....why only at the checkout stand....why not on the web too?

Again, from someone who is actually a part of the 9/11 “truth” movement:

Infowars has been one of the worst examples of promoting fake evidence.

It would appear that Steven E. Jones is not going to be submitting his paper to any kind of legitimate scientific or engineering journal, as was assumed, but to some kind of pro-Marxist economic publication. 

Why would this matter?  Simply because it would mean that his paper would not gain the attention of and be subject to peer review by people actually knowledgeable about science and/or engineering.

This from the heading of an earlier release of his paper, now scrubbed of the reference:

Accepted for publication:  Steven E. Jones, (2006). “Why Indeed did the WTC Buildings Collapse?,” The Hidden History of 9-11-2001, Research in Political Economy, Volume 23, P. Zarembka, editor, Amsterdam: Elsevier, 2006.

Comments on the series “Research in Political Economy”:

“This is a collection that must be read by all those who would like to understand how Marx would have reacted to the tremendous changes which he had not contemplated in precise terms.” —World Affairs

“Research in Political Economy has played a very positive role in developing the scientific Marxist agenda for the last 25 years” —Ajit Sinha, Science & Society

RIPE

Scientific Marxist agenda?  Holy cows and bats, lions and tigers and bears.
And rabbits.  Oh dear.

9/11 Evidence Ignored
By Apathetic American Public
Exercising Their Constitutional
Right To Remain ‘Uninformed’

From the ignored recovery of the black boxes at Ground Zero, the eye-witness testimony about basement explosions in the WTC and the scientific evidence of a controlled demolition, the American people have demonstrated over and over again they “just don’t care.”

By Greg Szymanski
12-13-5

Four years after 9/11, numerous people have come forward with damaging evidence but the government has never even blinked an eye.


Worse yet, the state sponsored media and the American people have turned a blind eye and a deaf ear, a sign of cover-up by the media and apathy on the part of the people.

But let’s not forget the media is a private enterprise, able to violate the public trust without losing too much sleep, while the majority of people in America are showing their true colors by using their constitutional right to simply remain uninformed.

Probably, if cornered, most Americans would try to wiggle their way out of being apathetic, but the sad fact remains most of them just don’t care.

In fact, Eric Hufschmid, a long time 9/11 truth activist and first to put together strong evidence of a WTC controlled demolition in his book Painful Questions, recently hit the nail on the head when he said:

“It’s time for people to wake-up! The evidence is there, folks.”

Hufschmid is right. The evidence is there and the American people are ashamedly asleep at the wheel. They’re sound asleep, as Hufschmid points out, because every time solid evidence is presented, making a case for a government 9/11 inside job, it goes in one ear and out the other.

And to make matters worse, the evidence goes by way of “file 69” while politicians, without even as much as blinking a sorry eye, stroll hand-in-hand by the Potomac, smoking cigars and laughing all the way to the bank.

But this scene is too easy to visualize as “Fatso” sprawls on the couch watching reruns of God only knows what while the other “Politician Fatsos” feed out of the government money trough like a bunch of dirty fat pigs.

However, the truth is that Americans have the right under the Constitution to get fat, stay apathetic and remain uninformed, a situation ruthless power-grabbers in high places feed on like sharks in blood infested waters.

And as President Baby Bush so aptly put it the other day, “The Constitution is only a piece of paper” not worth wiping one’s rear-end on. But from the mouth of a foolish President in this case comes the sad truth since the Constitution is only a “piece of paper” when the majority of people choose to remain uninformed.


For example, concerning 9/11, more than a year ago the Arctic Beacon interviewed Michael Bellone, a former honorary New York fireman working at Ground Zero who, along with fireman, Vincent DiMasi, uncovered three of the four airplane black boxes in the WTC wreckage.

Bellone insisted he found the black boxes, was told to “shut up” about it after the FBI confiscated the evidence and then after a few press clippings, nothing was every heard about it again, the 9/11 Commission and the government and the majority of Americans just ignoring the evidence.

A year ago, Bellone had this to say from his New York home:

“They confronted me and told me to not to say anything,” recalls Bellone, referring to one of three reddish-orange boxes with two white stripes he saw in the back of DeMasi’s ATV. “I said give me a good reason? When they couldn’t, I told them I wouldn’t shut up about it.

“Why should I? I have nothing to hide and nothing to gain. It’s the truth and Nick and I are sticking to our story as we always have.”

In fact, a year ago Bellone said he and DeMasi were not the only 911 rescue workers to see the black boxes, adding there were several other witnesses and knowing first hand
they had aslo been silenced by federal agents.

“I know two or three others saw what went down, but they are not talking,” added Bellone. “They got to those guys after they talked to me. The only reasonI can figure they are trying to hide the truth is that the government knows it screwed up and the recorders would prove it.

“I can tell you this, though, it was all very strange. I worked on the spaceship Columbia clean-up and you know when something important is found and when something is not” he recalled, saying the day the ‘black boxes’ were secretly carted away agents acted like “something big was going down.”

So, four years ago something big went down. The FBI confiscated evidence showing the airplanes hitting the WTC were not jetliners but most likely military cargo drones. One would think in light of this discovery the next logical step would be to force the government to turn over the boxes, leading to case closed since if they turned the boxes over, the evidence demonstrates the lies and, if they don’t turn them over, it demonstrates a cover-up which is equally as bad.

But instead what happens. The back boxes remain hidden and the reason they have never been made public is because most of the American people really don’t care, unfortunately deciding once again to exercise their constitutional right to remain plunked down on the couch in front of the television remaining “happily uninformed.”

And the list of 9/11 evidence ignored doesn’t stop here. The long list of compelling evidence shoved under the rug by the government, left hidden there by an apathetic populace is astounding. It’s so astounding, as they say, it really “blows one’s mind.”

There is, of course, the eye-witness testimony of not less than 30 people and, probably many more, who witnessed explosions in the WTC basement prior to the airplanes hitting the towers.

Then there is the Pentagon evidence and concealment of evidence that provides enough incriminating facts to put Bush and the gang away for a hundred lifetimes.

And, of course, there is the recent BYU physics professor, to name one of a hundred experts, who all concur that the laws of physics demonstrate without question the WTC collapsed from a controlled demolition not jet fuel like the government contends.

“The list of compelling evidence is endless and you don’t need experts to show that the government is lying about 9/11,” said Phil Jayhan, one of the few Americans who chooses to be informed.

In fact, the list of 9/11 evidence showing a government complicity before, during and after is so strong ­ so legally sound - even a third rate ambulance chasing lawyer could convince a jury.

However, since the case is still open and in the court of public opinion, more evidence is still being gathered as if investigators really needed to put more legal icing on the 9/11 cake.

And it will be interesting to see whether the next piece of 9/11 cake will be again ignored by the American people.

For example, this Friday on the Power Hour radio show, Dave von Kleist and Joyce Riley will interview former Pentagon insider working there on 9/11 who will present damaging evidence that the military brass lied about what type of aircraft actually struck the Pentagon.

Although Flowers was unavailable for comment, he is going to tell Riley and von Kleist on Friday that he was one of “many who were given prepared written statements to say that a commercial airliner hit the Pentagon” when in fact they had no knowledge of the fact or knew it was false.

“Under those chaotic conditions, Paul thought his prescribed protocol was acting in national security’s best interests. Well, today he sees the big mistake he had made by not telling the immediate truth,” said a promotion on the Power Hour web site for the Friday interview.

By following orders from the Pentagon brass, Flowers provides even more evidence that the government was involved in causing 9/11 and the resulting deaths of more than 3,000 people.

However, the real story more interesting than the evidence itself, will be whether the American people once again will choose to remain plunked on the couch, exercising their inalienable right to remain uninformed while another piece of vital 9/11 evidence goes in one ear and out the other like so many times before.

Source

The horrors of Zionists and Jewish/Christian fundamentalist supremacists know few bounds. They are the very fascist thugs and felons who are de-constucting and destroying the American way of life. They are the book-burners, the camp guards and staff, and the executioners-in-waiting.

We do NOT agree with George Bush that the American Constitution is “Just a goddamned piece of paper” and we will fight to preserve that hallowed and timeless document and our Bill Of Rights without cessation.

If you have not read the disclaimer at rense.com, please do. And keep in mind ‘journalism’ is traditionally supposed to report and present ALL sides and ALL voices of ALL issues to allow the PEOPLE to decide for themselves. Sadly, today’s mass media corporate shill ‘journalism’ has all but totally abandoned these historic precepts.

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Zionists, on the other hand, are committed to mass censorship, persecution, slander, intimidation, mind control and ultimately seek a prison camp police state built upon the souls of our Founding Fathers.

Our views on the Holocaust and all other Holocausts are well-known. We believe and continue to call for a full scholarly, scientific investigation to find out exactly, precisely WHAT did happen to European Jews, Gypsies, political dissidents, POWs and countless others on the wrong side of the Nazi regime. Until that happens, we will never know the full truth and will continue to be victimized by the ‘Holocaust Industry’ as depicted brilliantly in Prof Norman Finkelstein’s book of the same name.

In the meantime, we will continue to present major arguments, research and opinion from a myriad of sources in an effort to bring you the full panorama of information regarding many of the crucial events of the last century.

NO, we do NOT agree with everything we post on the site. Some of it is utterly antithetical to our views. YES, we believe it is all worth reading. Know your surroundings, understand the positions of those with whom you disagree. Keep the dialogue and discourse free and open. And let the truth fall where it may.

Let the Truth Fall where it may!

Very interesting, Rabbit.  Please.....continue!

I’ve heard the story about the lemmings and the cliff, but I hadn’t heard the one about rabbits hanging themselves.

Perhaps it’s unique to Australia.

Rabbit doesn’t seem to get Vonnegut’s point about information and knowledge not necessarily being the same thing.

No wonder I left this desert land of weeds…

I am not going through a couple hundred posts of drivel, so I may be beating a dead horse, but in response to the notion of alledged suicide hijackers still alive, I quote this from the BBC, which I found one link away from beowulf’s “proof” that this is a conspiracy,

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/1553754.stm

The FBI has said that the identities of some of its list of 19 hijackers behind last week’s devastating attacks are in doubt.

It believes that some of the hijackers used false identities, possibly even names of people who are still alive, which could significantly complicate the manhunt.

I will attempt to respond to any sane, brief, concise, relevant retorts.

Hi Jay, good to see you jumping back into the fray.

Jay wrote:

I am not going through a couple hundred posts of drivel, so I may be beating a dead horse

Beating a dead horse is exactly what people who continue to promote this tired myth are doing.  I earlier posted this from der Spiegel, which I thought did a pretty good job of putting this and some other myths in their proper perspective, as did your recent reference.  (Apologies for the repetition, but the practice seems to be quite in style here just recently.)

What these investigative journalists should have done was to spend a little time listening to those whom they cite as “reputable” sources for their arguments. Take the BBC, for example, which did in fact report, on September 23, 2001, that some of the alleged terrorists were alive and healthy and had protested their being named as assassins.

But there is one wrinkle. The BBC journalist responsible for the story only recalls this supposed sensation after having been told the date on which the story aired. “No, we did not have any videotape or photographs of the individuals in question at that time,” he says, and tells us that the report was based on articles in Arab newspapers, such as the Arab News, an English-language Saudi newspaper.

The photographs quickly resolved the nonsense about surviving terrorists. According to Bradley, “all of this is attributable to the chaos that prevailed during the first few days following the attack. What we’re dealing with are coincidentally identical names.” In Saudi Arabia, says Bradley, the names of two of the allegedly surviving attackers, Said al-Ghamdi and Walid al-Shari, are “as common as John Smith in the United States or Great Britain.”

That’s ridiculous!

Finally, a website devoted to debunking many of the “alternative” theories re: 9/11.  There is no shortage of material available to the shills for terrorism to feed on, but those of us clinging to the crazy notion that the activist arm of Islam is solely responsible for the events of that day have had to rely mainly upon the boring analyses of fools overeducated in the worthless fields of fire, mechanical and structural engineering, along with the highly suspect and even more boring conclusions of metallurgists and materials experts.

Perhaps I’m simplistic, but I just can’t get past the fact that nobody qualified to specify the structural requirements for building the towers has joined the parade of questionable characters that seem to think they are qualified to determine how they failed. When you start to dissect their theories and claims, it becomes quite apparent that they are motivated not by really wanting to find out the truth about the towers and related events, but by their hatred and disapproval of George W. Bush and the fact that America is actually using *gasp* force to change the equation in the middle east and elsewhere as it relates to Islamic terrorism.  If we had simply chalked it all up to “stuff happens”, and referred the whole matter to the FBI and the courts, I sincerely doubt all this would even be an issue on the Internet, much less warranting a stint on “The Situation”.

so I may be beating a dead horse

When one finds oneself riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount.

Harnessing several dead horses together is if no use at all.

David,

Your musings are entertaining and I appreciate them, but I can’t help but suspect them to be a device for avoiding taking a clear stand on the issue of whether or not you believe that the WTC towers were deliberately toppled with the help of explosives courtesy of the U.S. govt. 

Please explicitly state your belief regarding this controversy, minus the musings.

Additionally, do you consider the armor of someone engaging in holocaust revisionism to be shiny?

Frank A. Demartini, on-site construction manager for the World Trade Center, spoke of the resilience of the towers in an interview recorded on January 25, 2001.

The building was designed to have a fully loaded 707 crash into it. That was the largest plane at the time. I believe that the building probably could sustain multiple impacts of jetliners because this structure is like the mosquito netting on your screen door—this intense grid—and the jet plane is just a pencil puncturing that screen netting. It really does nothing to the screen netting. 

Demartini, who had an office on the 88th floor of the North Tower, has been missing since the 9/11/01 attack. 4

How is that Jay?

As architect and physicist Dave Heller (2005) explains:

the floors could not have been pancaking. The buildings fell too quickly. The floors must all have been falling simultaneously to reach the ground in such a short amount of time. But how?. . . In [the method known as controlled demolition], each floor of a building is destroyed at just the moment the floor above is about to strike it. Thus, the floors fall simultaneously, and in virtual freefall. (Garlic and Glass 6)

Most of these 11 features---all but the slicing of the core columns and the molten steel in the basements---are features that, if they occurred before or during the collapses of the towers, could have been observed by people in the area. And, in fact, testimonies about some of these phenomena have been available, since shortly after 9/11, from reporters,[36] fire fighters,[37] police officers,[38] people who worked in the towers,[39] and one prominent explosives expert, Van Romero, [40] who said on that very day after viewing the videotapes, that the collapses not only resembled those produced by controlled implosions but must, in fact, have been caused by “some explosive devices inside the buildings” because they were “too methodical” to have been chance results of the airplane strikes (Uyttebrouck, 2001).[41] Some of these testimonies were very impressive. There were, however, only a few of them and they were scattered here and there. No big body of testimony was readily accessible.

But this situation has dramatically changed. Shortly after 9/11, the New York Fire Department recorded over 500 oral histories, in which firefighters and emergency medical workers recounted their experiences of that day. [Emergency Medical Services had become a division within the Fire Department(Dwyer, 2005a).] Mayor Bloomberg’s administration, however, refused to release them. But then the New York Times, joined by several families of 9/11 victims, filed suit and, after a long process, the New York Court of Appeals ordered the city to release the bulk of these oral histories, which it did in August 2005[42] (Dwyer, 2005b). The Times then made them publicly available (NYT, 2005).[43]

These oral histories contain many dozens of testimonies that speak of explosions and related phenomena characteristic of controlled demolition. I will give some examples.

Explosions

Several individuals reported that they witnessed an explosion just before one of the towers collapsed. Battalion Chief John Sudnik said: “we heard . . . what sounded like a loud explosion and looked up and I saw tower two start coming down” (NYT, Sudnick, p. 4).

Several people reported multiple explosions. Paramedic Kevin Darnowski said: “I heard three explosions, and then . . . tower two started to come down” (NYT, Darnowski, p. 8).

Firefighter Thomas Turilli said, “it almost sounded like bombs going off, like boom, boom, boom, like seven or eight” (NYT, Turilli, p. 4).

Craig Carlsen said that he and other firefighters “heard explosions coming from . . . the south tower. . . . There were about ten explosions. . . . We then realized the building started to come down” (NYT, Carlsen, pp. 5-6). 

Firefighter Joseph Meola said, “it looked like the building was blowing out on all four sides. We actually heard the pops” (NYT, Meola, p. 5).

Paramedic Daniel Rivera also mentioned “pops.” Asked how he knew that the south tower was coming down, he said:

It was a frigging noise. At first I thought it was---do you ever see professional demolition where they set the charges on certain floors and then you hear ‘Pop, pop, pop, pop, pop’? . . . I thought it was that. (NYT, Rivera, p. 9)

Collapse Beginning below the Strike Zone and Fire
According to the official account, the “pancaking” began when the floors above the hole caused by the airplane fell on the floors below. Some witnesses reported, however, that the collapse of the south tower began somewhat lower. 

Timothy Burke said that “the building popped, lower than the fire. . . . I was going oh, my god, there is a secondary device because the way the building popped. I thought it was an explosion” (NYT, Burke, pp. 8-9).

Firefighter Edward Cachia said: “It actually gave at a lower floor, not the floor where the plane hit. . . . [W]e originally had thought there was like an internal detonation, explosives, because it went in succession, boom, boom, boom, boom, and then the tower came down” (NYT, Cachia, p. 5).

The importance of these observations is reinforced by the fact that the authors of the NIST Report, after having released a draft to the public, felt the need to add the following statement to the Executive Summary:

NIST found no corroborating evidence for alternative hypotheses suggesting that the WTC towers were brought down by controlled demolition using explosives planted prior to September 11, 2001. . . . Instead, photos and videos from several angles clearly showed that the collapse initiated at the fire and impact floors and that the collapse progressed from the initiating floors downward.

Firefighters Burke and Cachia presumably now need to ask themselves: What are you going to believe, your own eyes or an official government report?

Flashes and Demolition Rings

Some of the witnesses spoke of flashes and of phenomena suggestive of demolition rings. Assistant Commissioner Stephen Gregory said: “I thought . . . before . . . No. 2 came down, that I saw low-level flashes. . . . I . . . saw a flash flash flash . . . [at] the lower level of the building. You know like when they demolish a building?” (NYT, Gregory, pp. 14-16).

Captain Karin Deshore said: “Somewhere around the middle . . . there was this orange and red flash coming out. Initially it was just one flash. Then this flash just kept popping all the way around the building and that building had started to explode. . . . [W]ith each popping sound it was initially an orange and then a red flash came out of the building and then it would just go all around the building on both sides as far as I could see. These popping sounds and the explosions were getting bigger, going both up and down and then all around the building” (NYT, Deshore, p. 15).

Firefighter Richard Banaciski said: “[T]here was just an explosion. It seemed like on television [when] they blow up these buildings. It seemed like it was going all the way around like a belt, all these explosions” (NYT, Banaciski, pp. 3-4).

Deputy Commissioner Thomas Fitzpatrick said: “It looked like sparkling around one specific layer of the building. . . . My initial reaction was that this was exactly the way it looks when they show you those implosions on TV” (NYT, Fitzpatrick, pp. 13-14).

Horizontal Ejections

A few witnesses spoke of horizontal ejections. Chief Frank Cruthers said: “There was what appeared to be . . . an explosion. It appeared at the very top, simultaneously from all four sides, materials shot out horizontally. And then there seemed to be a momentary delay before you could see the beginning of the collapse” (NYT, Cruthers, p. 4).

This testimony is important, because the official theory holds that the ejections were produced by the floors collapsing. So listen to firefighter James Curran, who said: “I looked back and . . . I heard like every floor went chu-chu-chu. I looked back and from the pressure everything was getting blown out of the floors before it actually collapsed” (NYT, Curran, pp. 10-11).

Battalion Chief Brian Dixon said, “the lowest floor of fire in the south tower actually looked like someone had planted explosives around it because . . . everything blew out on the one floor” (NYT, Dixon, p. 15).[44]
Synchronized Explosions

Some witnesses said that the explosions seemed to be synchronized. For example, firefighter Kenneth Rogers said, “there was an explosion in the south tower. . . . I kept watching. Floor after floor after floor. One floor under another after another . . . [I]t looked like a synchronized deliberate kind of thing” (NYT, Rogers, pp. 3-4).[45]

Oh, and Natalie
you question a topic broached on a web sight on the fringe, which quickly squashed and dismissed the Olson story for lack of evidence, but you worship at the feet of the mainstream media who carried the lies of the WMDs that lead this nation into an illegal war. Thousands are now dead for that one and you still retain faith in those same institutions. Do explain.
Jay believes raghead media cannot be trusted either. I wonder who conditioned him to believe that one. I find that interesting and possibly leads to his current motivation towards genetic cleansing as he “rebuilds the realm” for the neocons. Well, once like Trotsky, always like Trotsky. I cannot ask them to change their spots. No wonder you are so offended by our constitution. Unfortunately, while we debate this last government op, the government is no doubt planning yet another to get you monkeys to attack Iran and Syria and to reinstate dictorial powers. That way Big Brother can keep you safe.

“Those who would trade liberty for security will descend into tyranny.”
-Ronald Reagan 1981.

Hi Natalie,

I believe that the collapse of WTC 1, WTC 2 and WTC 7 were not the result of the plane crashes into WTC 1 and WTC 2 and/or the subsequent fires.

I believe that controlled demolition with the use of explosives is the most probable cause from the evidence I have studied. Controlled demolition with explosives seems to be the only answer for the collapse of WTC 7.

I have questions about the official story that I feel have not been satisfactorily answered.

What do you think of the collapse of WTC 7?
What do you think of the huge increase in put options on airline stock in the days preceding 9/11?

Maybe this discussion should be moved to a new thread here on ITT called What’s the 411 on 9/11?

Just a reminder that believing is not always the same as knowing. Questioning is not the same as disbelieving.

As for your holocaust revisionism question : Where did that question come from? Are you trying to get me arrested and marched off to the Canadian prison cell so recently vacated when they shipped Ernst Zundel off to Germany?

Maybe one day questioning the official story of 9/11 will be a thought crime too.

Natalie, never the less, this may answer your question : When I agree/disagree with someone about a particular issue it does not prevent me from disagreeing/agreeing with them on another issue.

One more question for you Natalie.

What do you think of the war