George W. Bush. Tony Blair. Silvio Berlusconi. Jacques Chirac. Along with most every Western leader, pundit and policymaker, they are frantically searching for the “moderate Muslims” who can save Islam from itself and improve relations with the West. The problem is that there’s no such thing as a moderate Muslim, at least the way these decision makers define the term.… return to article
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Reader Comments (25)Page 1 of 1 pagesAnd just how much peace and democracy do you wish to bring to America?
Posted by scorp on Nov 9, 2005 at 8:54 AM There is an interesting serendipity between Levine’s call for radical Islamists at one extreme and a book promo/excerpt (?) of Tony Blankley’s “The West’s Last Chance: Will We Win the Clash of Civilizations?” at the Washington Times on the other extreme.
http://www.washtimes.com/national/20050912-122024-9420r.htm
While Levine is calling for a different kind of legitimate Islamic radical, Blankley is calling for a crusade of the current militant crop, claiming,
The threat of the radical Islamists taking over Europe is every bit as great to the United States as was the threat of the Nazis taking over Europe in the 1940s.
turning Europe into a Eurabia, largely at the hands of the complacent Europeans whose effort at cultural tolerance since World War II has rendered Europe impotent.
I disagree that Levine’s “moderates” don’t exist, but I agree that the legitimacy of the current prominent Islamic moderates suffer in the mind of the average Muslim from the associations Levine describes.
I do hope Islam can find a balance between Levine’s “moderates” and Blankley’s “Islamo-fascists”. I am just not that confident it will happen until the existing militant Islamic radicals have been publicly castrated.
Posted by Jay Cline on Nov 9, 2005 at 9:29 AM correction:
...calling for a crusade against the current militant crop ...
Posted by Jay Cline on Nov 9, 2005 at 9:31 AM I understand the gist of Mr. Levine’s argument, but to say that al-Qaeda is not “that radical” is a real stretch. Al-Qaeda is an extremely radical organization. It is radical in its interpretation of Islam which basically erases all interesting, or otherwise not so interesting, changes that Islam underwent since the death of Muhammad. It is radical in its interpretation of who qualifies as Muslim, as for example the Shia—that’s a real break with historical Islam which normally is very hesitant to dismiss any Muslim sect, or any Muslim for that matter, as non-Muslim. At least as concerns these two attributes, al-Qaeda does qualify as an extremely radical organization.
Posted by omranz on Nov 9, 2005 at 3:08 PM omranz,
I think Levine is distinguishing between the conventional radicalism of ideological militant reactionaries like Al Queda, and novel transformative radicalism like the examples he cites. Al Queda is really a kind of Neo-Con movement in Islam. They are not really concerned with religion as much as religion’s usefulness in selling their marketing scheme.
Jay, rapped/wrapped/rapt in the latest fad of Neo-Con ersatz fantasy has, per usual, totally missed Levine’s point. Levine’s moderates. hee hee. I love you, Jay. You make my life shine.
Posted by luminous beauty on Nov 9, 2005 at 10:51 PM Thanks for the link Jay! It was very entertaining read.
I have never seen so much nonsense in my whole life.
Wait, maybe the party propaganda of the communist was as bad as this (I am an Eastern European)
Amazing!I just do not have the time to make list with all misleading, speculations and lies in this “book”. And these were only few pages.
Are the views of the author shared by the American government or citizens? I hope not!My favorite bit :
“ World War II was good, despite the millions of deaths, the limitations on daily lives, the encroachment on peacetime liberties and the arduousness of wartime life. The war was good because the sacrifice was for a noble cause, for the perpetuation of America and the American way of life. “
I could not stop laughing for five minutes; my colleagues thought I went mad:)
Posted by evtim on Nov 10, 2005 at 4:44 AM Yeah, I was pretty amused by it too.
Pity LB didn’t get the joke. Aside from the cheap jab at neo-cons, her explanation dovetails with my interpretation of Levine’s gist....
Posted by Jay Cline on Nov 10, 2005 at 9:15 AM Please expand on the joke Jay-Jay. I’m in utter awe of your comic genius.
Which cheap jab at the Neo-Cons? I thought I was using the Neo-Cons to make cheap jabs at Al Queda and your humble self, but I must bow to your impressive interpretive skills.
Posted by luminous beauty on Nov 10, 2005 at 10:59 AM Found this :
Take the quiz and please share the results. I have taken a similar quiz before. If anyone has another worth taking (not saying this one is) please share it.
David’s results :
Taoism
Your ideals mostly resemble those of the Taoist faith. Spirituality is the most important thing in your life. You strive to live by all of your ideals, and live a very intellectually focused life.
50% spiritual.
0% reason-oriented.
Posted by David in Canada on Nov 10, 2005 at 11:21 PM Kuya’s results:
Spiritualism
Your ideals are mostly spiritual, but in an individualistic way. While spirituality is very important in your life, organized religion itself may not be for you. It is best for you to seek these things on your own terms.
60% spiritual.
80% reason-orientedYup, that’s pretty much dead-on.
Posted by Kuya on Nov 11, 2005 at 1:02 AM Responding to the article, if I could see something truly radical in any ideology, religious or secular, it would be a determination to treat all people and the world as if they had an inherent value that makes them worth taking care of. I sure as hell don’t see much of that now, not in politics, religion (organized or individual), or in the way economic or personal relationships are conducted, with a few exceptions.
That would be about the most radical departure from the way people typically treat each other as I can imagine. Usually we just under- or de-value each other based on some convenient justification. We’re very talented at ignoring or victimizing each other as well, for all the right reasons of course. It’s especially easy to do by selectively citing scripture, since the ancients were just as victimizing upon each other as we are and their words come down to us in the scrolls we’ve sanctified through history from the days of general illiteracy up to the present.
One little tidbit I’ll add is one of my favorite scriptural lines of them all. I mean a sincere favorite, departing from the cynical tone in the above paragraphs.
In the Quran, 2nd Sura, 256th verse, God says “There is no compulsion in religion...”, then continuing to say that the way is clear and that believers in God cannot possibly be let down (loose paraphrase).
No compulsion. No one forcing you with law or muscle.
Talk about a radical idea! Love to see it. Doubt if I will any time soon.
Posted by Kuya on Nov 11, 2005 at 1:25 AM Kuya - thanks for sharing the results. I will eventually post a summary when more have had the chance to take the quiz.
When considering your results remember that the spectrums of the axis (axes?) are :
SCIENTIFIC - SPIRITUAL
REASON - FAITH
Posted by David in Canada on Nov 11, 2005 at 1:27 AM Hello Canadian David,
I get much more of a spiritual rush and a worshipful feeling from what I learn in science than I ever did in church. For me, that stuff IS the juice!A pity that worship/spiritual emphases are so often seen as being opposite to the practice of systematically learning the subtle mechanisms of nature. For me they go hand-in-glove.
Posted by Kuya on Nov 11, 2005 at 3:54 AM Who should our radical youths look up to with their naturally wild and energized spirits? Guys like Reda Zine. The writers for IntheseTimes are like the Lester Bangs of political reporters. I’m amazed by how wonderfully active in politics my friends are who were once RAISING HELL all over eastern Iowa. KEEP UP THIS SPIRIT! THIS IS WHAT REVOLUTION IS MADE OF!
Posted by m goodwin on Nov 11, 2005 at 9:48 AM 40% scientific.
40% reason-oriented.at the cusp of agnostic/atheist/humanist
Posted by Jay Cline on Nov 11, 2005 at 9:54 AM At the risk of starting another firestorm, I see myself as very scientific AND spiritual.
But, with a last name like Cline, I’ve always like the non-linearity model of a Klein bottle....
Posted by Jay Cline on Nov 11, 2005 at 9:56 AM I get much more of a spiritual rush and a worshipful feeling from what I learn in science than I ever did in church. For me, that stuff IS the juice!
Kuya, my biggest rush is nature and the whole universe. I could care less if I understand it, I just enjoy it.
Jay, thanks for sharing the results. I think one can be scientific and spiritual too. My faith and reason score was 0%. One foot on either side of the fence.
Posted by David in Canada on Nov 11, 2005 at 11:14 AM I’ve got to commend you for that sudden confessional burst, Jay I really think I understand your mobius mind a little better. Half twisted circular reasoning. It fits!
You’re only a single step away from digging unbounded topologies. Maybe we can jack you up to n-dimensional Riemann surfaces and bombard you with discrete indeterminacies and singularities. With enough iterations we’ll soon map your pattern of chaotic attractors and paint the fractal image of your personal Lorenz butterfly. We’ll make a mensch out of you yet, Jay. And don’t worry, it won’t hurt hardly a bit.
Posted by luminous beauty on Nov 11, 2005 at 1:25 PM We are all Klein bottles. We are all beautiful butterflies.
We are all helping each other to be well.
And it only hurts a bit ;)
Suffering cheerfully endured, ceases to be suffering and is transmuted into an ineffable joy. - Ghandi
Posted by David in Canada on Nov 11, 2005 at 3:45 PM click here for Lorenz butterfly simulation
Very cool, thank you Luminous Beauty.
Posted by David in Canada on Nov 11, 2005 at 7:22 PM Yes, luminous, nice. And cool cascade of classy concepts. Glowy gorgeous.
Got a little alliteration thang goin’ on, better reset…
Gotta say, David, I’m not too big a fan of suffering, seems like there’s enough of that going around all by itself, don’t much want to mystify/glorify it. I’m more a happiness headtripper.
Damn, gotta reset again…
Posted by Kuya on Nov 15, 2005 at 1:15 AM Kuya, I don’t like suffering either…
There’s a dark & a troubled side of life
There’s a bright, there’s a sunny side, too
Tho’ we meet with the darkness and strife
The sunny side we also may viewKeep on the sunny side, always on the sunny side,
Keep on the sunny side of life
It will help us ev’ry day, it will brighten all the way
If we’ll keep on the sunny side of lifeThe storm and its fury broke today,
Crushing hopes that we cherish so dear;
Clouds and storms will, in time, pass away
The sun again will shine bright and clear.
Let us greet with the song of hope each day
Tho’ the moment be cloudy or fair
Let us trust in our Saviour away
Who keepeth everyone in His care... thank you someone for the lyrics ... too lazy to source ... tried but not sure.
Posted by David in Canada on Nov 15, 2005 at 1:36 AM But the suffering has something to teach us. Yes?
I sure hope it does.
Posted by David in Canada on Nov 15, 2005 at 1:37 AM David:
The Sunny Side of Life by A. P. Carter. Father of June Carter Cash; portrayed by Reese Witherspoon in the soon to be released flic <i>Walk The Line<>. This I gotta see.
Just had to come back with this. I just can’t help myself, sometimes, (well, most times....):
<blockquote>Bright Side of Life --- Eric Idle
Always look on the bright side of life.
[whistling]
Always look on the light side of life.
[whistling]If life seems jolly rotten,
There’s something you’ve forgotten,
And that’s to laugh and smile and dance and sing.
When you’re feeling in the dumps,
Don’t be silly chumps.
Just purse your lips and whistle. That’s the thing.And…
Always look on the bright side of life.
[whistling]
Always look on the right side of life,
[whistling]For life is quite absurd
And death’s the final word.
You must always face the curtain with a bow.
Forget about your sin.
Give the audience a grin.
Enjoy it. It’s your last chance, anyhow.So,…
Always look on the bright side of death,
[whistling]
Just before you draw your terminal breath.
[whistling]Life’s a piece of shit,
When you look at it.
Life’s a laugh and death’s a joke. It’s true.
You’ll see it’s all a show.
Keep ‘em laughing as you go.
Just remember that the last laugh is on you.And…
Always look on the bright side of life.
[whistling]
Always look on the right side of life.
[whistling]
Always look on the bright side of life!
[whistling]
Always look on the bright side of life!
[whistling]
Always look on the bright side of life!
[whistling]
Always look on the bright side of life!
[whistling]
Always look on the bright side of life!
[whistling]
Always look on the bright side of life!
[whistling]
Always look on the bright side of life!
[whistling]
Always look on the bright side of life!
[whistling]</blockquote
Posted by luminous beauty on Nov 15, 2005 at 9:44 AM ... paraphrased ... a piece of poo and the last laugh is on you
Posted by David in Canada on Nov 15, 2005 at 8:55 PM Page 1 of 1 pages -
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