Torturers R’ Us

“We do not torture” and “I am not a crook”. You got it.

It’s all so sickening.  I have a diffuse memory of (some time in the blur of 2003), seeing an “OPIONION POLL” header on a cable news-feed on a homepage. It was a three word question--- it was either “Is torture justified?” or “Is torture necessary?”

I had other things to do and didn’t check it out any further, but it gave me the creeps and felt like an ill omen for an agency to be popping off this question all casual like--- out of nowhere.

Come to think about it “necessary” or “justified” are two different cans of maggots, but this occurred well before the Abu Graib scandal broke. It read to me like a ghoulish balloon being floated by the Pentagon (or worse). I’m thinking that Gitmo news and then the Abu Graib scandal broke out about 4 to 6 months after that.

Remember how the press was carrying on and on about how the (publicizing of) the Abu Graib prison scandal “lost the war”? 

Seems the American public wasn’t as outraged as the rest of the planet, huh.  For the Iraqi people, it wasn’t a surprize that the torture of innocent Iraqis was commonplace, but I’m sure that seeing it publicized like porn compounded the humiliation of the Iraqis, and earned the outrage of most of the rest of the world.

Anyway, that was a bad call on the part of the press, but who would have guessed that a hurricane would “lose the war”.  I don’t think any American official has officially declared that the U.S. has lost the war. Whatever “the war” is. Is it the “War on Terror” we are supposed to win, or the “War to disarm Saddam Hussein”, or the “War to Make Iraq a Democracy”, or a “War on Iraq”; or just a good old-fashioned American ass whooping on a poor nation without an air defense system “War”?

Has any government official of the U.S. declared a war on Iraq, or terrorism, or Islam? Where’s the contract, here? What exactly are we tax paying citizens funding right now?

I’m sure the boys in the executive branch liked having public attention riveted to something “sexy” like torture porn, instead of the dry stuff like the President and Vice President and National Security Advisor testifying withoug taking oaths and not allowing any recording or transcripts whatsoever of their “interview” (is that the word they used?) “ to share information” with a committee investigating the failure to provide for the common defense of the nation on 9/11 according to protocols that have been crystal clear and scrupulously enforced from the time there were airplanes until 9/11/01.  Or whatever they were supposed to “learn” or “share” or what-the-f**k-ever in their pricey little orifices---uh, “offices”.

We paid these a**holes millions to do top-totally-secret meetings” between people earning top dollar to run a “committee” that can’t take notes.

O.K. Now I’ve gone and lost it!

Outside on the steps, a conspicuosly small group of particularly well groomed journalists held their mikes and cameras toward the president. Someone asked something vague, like ‘How did it go, Mr. President’?.

Bush said something like, ‘We had a nice talk with them, and I think they understand now how we do business at the White House’.

Indeed.

Right now I’m wondering how many torturers are not even thinking about operating within the law, and are not being held accountable because they are private sadists employed with no-bid contracts at the taxpayers expense to support this filthy habit of oiligarchies, dictators, totalitarian maniacs, and serial killers.

Two of the questions being asked right now sum up how badly our country has lost lost its way:

When is it ok to torture?
Should Americans be thrown in jail at the whim of the chief executive without access to representation or a judiciary review?

WTF?!

That was three questions Matt. I like the third one for it’s clarity.

The Executive Branch appears to be having some serious boundary issues.

No questions ... only orders.

You hit that nail on the head, David.

http://home.comcast.net/~just.tina/abu.html

For anyone interested, this was my rant over the “Abu Graib Scandal” when it was breaking news.

Tastes Great. Less Torture.

Slogans ‘r’ us

ha ha

I had to agree with former President Jimmy Carter when he recently said in an interview that he could hardly believe that the legitimacy of torture is even being debated in this day and age, in these times.  How low can we go?  Or how low can Dick Cheney go?  He makes Darth Vadar look like a kitten!

Maybe the EU will have to expose some rottenness in “Denmark” and give George some ‘splaining to do.

“EU threat to countries with secret CIA prisons “

· Poland and Romania under investigation
· Germany fears it was hub for ‘rendition’ flights

Luke Harding in Berlin
Tuesday November 29, 2005
The Guardian

excerpts:

“The European Union’s top justice official warned yesterday that any EU country found to have operated secret CIA prisons could lose its EU voting rights.

In a move that increases pressure on the US to explain the activities of the CIA, the EU justice and home affairs commissioner, Franco Frattini, said there would be “serious consequences” if reports of CIA jails in Europe turned out to be true.

“The European commission has also asked the US to confirm the existence of secret CIA military jails, which almost certainly breach the European convention on human rights and the international convention against torture.”

“Some 31 CIA flights are under suspicion, he has said. If the allegations are proved, Poland, a US ally which joined the EU last year, and Romania could be in breach of article 6 of the Treaty of Nice, which calls on all member states to uphold basic human rights. The Bush administration has so far not confirmed the existence of secret CIA prisons.

Yesterday Mr Frattini said the voting rights suspension would be justified under the EU’s treaty, which stipulates that the bloc is founded on the principles of liberty, democracy, respect for human rights, fundamental freedoms and the rule of law. Jonathan Faul, chief of the EU’s justice and home affairs directorate, last week formally raised the issue of alleged CIA secret detention centres with the White House and state department representatives, who told him Washington needed more time to respond to the media allegations, Mr Frattini said.”

from:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/eu/story/0,7369,1652992,00.html

Whence goeth N.A.T.O.?

Are “we” (the U.S.) still in arrears (sp?) on our dues for the space station, the U.N., and a lotta embassies worldwide?

We may not be invited to all the big suaree’s (sp?) anymore. Hip dinnner parties begin after ten o’clock p.m.

It’s worth repeating, David.

“Tastes Great. Less Torture.

Slogans ‘r’ us

Posted by David in Canada on Nov 29, 2005 at 12:57 PM”

How did that go? “No matter how many ducky feathers you glue on a tank you still won’t be invited to an inflatable pool party”? 

LOL! This guy is very funny in a Zen-koan sort of way. Canadian?

The Abu Ghraib stuff was disgusting and stupid, but hardly worse than some of the stupid hazing of basic training in our own military. The kind of treatment in these allegations has always been against regulations and people at a much higher level should be held responsible and punished.

There is no need for an amendment unless it is the only way to bring this behavior to the light of day. One phrase comes to mind from my military service nearly fifty years ago, “No excuse, Sir!” Those above you accepted no excuses for something in your scope of responsibility — neither should we. There is no higher rank than CIVILIAN. We are charged with responsibility for our military.

The Whitehouse has failed another test. Mistakes are expected, misjudgments will happen, wrong choices are human — not knowing is no excuse. The correct response is not, “There may be exceptional cases where only physical torture is the answer.” The only response acceptable is, “We will get to the bottom (top is better) of this and it will not be condoned.”

Proposing to veto such an amendment for whatever reason is just plain stupid and shows a complete lack of human understanding. This should have been dealt with immediately. What we now have is not just egg on our faces, but the possibility of blood on our hands. The response so far will likely do far more harm than any benefit from information gained.

The Whitehouse needs to sign up for Crisis Management 101.

How about Crisis Management Remedial class?

interesting excerpts from:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1653936,00.html

“Cheney ‘may be guilty of war crime’ “

· Vice-president accused of backing torture
· Claims on BBC by former insider add to Bush’s woes”

Julian Borger in Washington
Wednesday November 30, 2005
The Guardian

“Lawrence Wilkerson, who served as chief of staff to secretary of state Colin Powell from 2002 to 2005, singled out Mr Cheney in a wide-ranging political assault on the BBC’s Today programme.

Mr Wilkerson said that in an internal administration debate over whether to abide by the Geneva conventions in the treatment of detainees, Mr Cheney led the argument “that essentially wanted to do away with all restrictions”.  “
------------------------------
“But it has now emerged that two justice department memos listing permissible interrogation methods have been kept secret by the White House, even from the Senate intelligence committee. The New Yorker recently quoted a source who had seen a memo as calling it “breathtaking”.

“The document dismissed virtually all national and international laws regulating the treatment of prisoners, including war crimes and assault statutes, and it was radical in its view that in wartime the president can fight enemies by whatever means he sees fit,” the magazine reported.  “

------------------
“Human Rights Watch this year called for a special counsel to investigate any US officials - no matter their rank or position - who took part in, “ordered, or had command responsibility for war crimes or torture, or other prohibited ill-treatment against detainees in US custody”. “

When Congress calls for a “special” (aren’t they all?) counsel to investigate, or at least backs up the GAO and doesn’t allow the executive branch to keep it from doing its job by cutting their budget, then we’ll be on our way to reason.

Wiley ... Tastes Great. Less Torture. Slogans ‘r’ us ... Glad you enjoyed it. I think the author is an American. I have bookmarked his archives for future reading on a rainy day.

What the Heck, you say “The Abu Ghraib stuff was disgusting and stupid, but hardly worse than some of the stupid hazing of basic training in our own military.”

I would say that the torture and human rights violations at Abu Ghraib, Gitmo and the other secret prisons is just as bad and even worse than hazing that goes on at basic training. Remember that they have not yet released the most disturbing evidence of torture and rape for fear of an even larger scandal. The proverbial tip of the iceberg.

What the Heck, you say “What we now have is not just egg on our faces, but the possibility of blood on our hands.” Possibility?? Please spare me the equivocations. Your nation’s hands are dripping with the blood and gore of the innocent.

Whattheck, how do you know how disgusting the torture is at
Abu Graib or any other U.S. military prisons? Were you there? Did you see it? Did you take part in torturing prisoners? Were you tortured? Have you ever been in a fraternity? Were you hazed? Were you hazed in the military?

Let me point out a couple of differences here between fraternity hazing and Iraqis, that seem profound to me:

1) Fraternity wannabees clamor to hazing parties they were invited to after going through a lengthy application process, the presentation of their pedigrees, and an interview.

The wannabes dress to impress and go to the hazing party with people around their age for the purpose of being chosen to be in the fraternal order (usually their fathers’ fraternity). 

Hazing is one of the rituals required as a test for membership into the “fraternity” and its attendent “house” (often a mansion) to room with same-sex peers in a fraternal order while they attend the same college or university and seek mating partners of their ilk.

Part of the hazing ceremony requires that the applicants submit to humiliating or dangerous treatment.  If they become members, they can humiliate other applicants at all other hazing parties for the duration of their membership.

They want to be in this group so badly that they’ll pay for it and the costs of running the house. Someone will pay, anyway---top dollar.

They do everything together---party and study, attend various social functions, and meet Sorority women with which they might couple, and learn how to throw fundraisers.

It’s a weird business contact and mating industry. (Nothing like being thrown into a prison with a bag over your head by members of an invading and occupying nation screaming at you in a foreign language and hitting you with clubs after terrifying your family and humiliating you in front of them.)

ASIDE:  I knew a few people in college that payed their tuition by writing papers, taking tests, and even taking entire courses for fraternity guys who were probably a lot like W. The Bush girls went to my alma mater. We weren’t, of course, in the same sorority. (I am so laughing in my hat).

2) Whenever there was a death of a fraternity wannabee or fraternity member you can bet your sweet butt that it was investegated and reported. Then usually there would be a flurry of Public Relations twaddle on the local news. A lot of young adults and teenagers at funerals having ephiphanies and similar fluffy sh*t.  It would fade into a sad tale, and then it would be forgotten. The fraternity hazing continues.

Sometimes entire groups of members have had their charter removed as punishment for getting out of hand. I can only try to imagine what is over the top for these people. Gang rape on DVD, perhaps?

In the neighborhood of my alma mater, fraternity members shot out our kitchen windows, launched blocks of ice from a huge catapult on top of their roof (I guess if someone got hit on the head and was put into a vegetative state, their daddies would pay for insurance or find the lawyer to have it blamed on the pedestrian who stepped under a falling block of ice one sunny day.)

They always had music blaring at three o’clock in the morning during mid-term and finals weeks. However, the police were conspiculously absent and unresponsive when complaints were made against behavior at fraternity houses. Police men would blow off behavior by fraternity members that they witnessed themselves, even it he/she were challenged by other citizens to do something about it. 

And many of these fraternity guys will grow up to be lawyers and/or elected as judges.

This is not the case for “males of fighting” age in Iraq who are swept up in dragnets because they are “males of fighting age” (the age ranges change) by military people who don’t speak their language and don’t appear to trust a single Iraqi they went there to ----

WHAT?!

wileywitch,

“Abu Graib or any other U.S. military prisons? Were you there? Did you see it? Did you take part in torturing prisoners? Were you tortured?”

I was not there.  That is why I am willing to get more info before condemning anyone. I take it from your comments you WERE there, or are just willing to accept the written word from anyone if it fits your scenario.

-------------------
def. haze: 1a: to harass by exacting unnecessary or disagreeable work b: to haze by way of initiation (haze the fraternity pledges)

I was using to the first definition (1a.)above.

“Have you ever been in a fraternity?” — No.
“Were you hazed in the military?” — Yes.
-------------------

David,

“Your nation’s hands are dripping with the blood and gore of the innocent.”

You talk of the “innocent”, but I see you are willing to convict without question when itsuits your preconceived ideas.

We neither know the degree of truth of the charges yet, nor the whether “innocent” is accurately descriptive of the captives. It doesn’t justify torture, but do we know they never chopped anyone’s head off?
------------------------
“Remember that they have not yet released the most disturbing evidence of torture and rape for fear of an even larger scandal. The proverbial tip of the iceberg.”

If it has not been released yet, how do you know how bad it was? Just can’t wait to bad mouth the U.S. can you? You may well get your chance. I guess my judge of Canadians’ sense of justice was too high.

How about the proverbial, Can’t tell a book by its cover.

No, whattheheck I was not there. I saw the freaking photographs and read the testimony of people who were there and none of it resembled HAZING.

Are you really such a dodo head that you don’t get the point I was making?

Criminy, I hope you don’t get paid to Freep. It bothers me even to see Republicans throwing away good money.

WTH, you may not be able to tell a book by its cover, but if you’ve seen all the other BS that the author has written and that author is so ashamed of his current work that he won’t even let you open the book, I’ve got a pretty good idea its a really sick book.

BTW, WTH, I’m a veteran of the United States Air Force. Through boot camp, and tech school, two years in SAC/NORAD, and two years in a mobile radar unit in Germany, the closest I ever came to “hazing”, was drinking contests in which nobody cheated, arm wrestling, backgammon, and a little joke in which someone would tell a new-bee to go get a bucket of radar paint.

Perhaps the time someone “accidentally” put a training tape of Soviet submarine launched missiles being launched from symbols for known submarine sites in the North Atlantic during real-time it was “hazing”. In that case, someone was hazing all the Generals in Cheyenne Mountain. Sort of doubt that. It was no giggle-fest.

I’ve heard of sadistic rituals in the navy, but that’s not my branch.

I got my good conduct medal and my expert marksman ribbon, and I know the g**damned difference between hazing and torture, and no one ever had to explain it to me.

America: Just a Big Red White and Blue Teddy Bear With a Whole Lot of Guns and a penchant for torture.

How is it with these bastards, they not only torture anyway, despite hundreds of years of laws, they actually have the hide to try and make it legal, just like every other form of war crime this Criminal Junta of Maniacs, led by Cheney, the Vice president of the fiery pit and using his cock puppet Bush to add insult to injury while trying to destroy the world quicker than his own maggot ridden carcass can call an end to his eternally blasted existence.

When Mr and Mrs Cheney looked down on their new baby boy, and uttered that word, DICK, which was not only to be his name but a great prophecy in one word, it was a day the sun had best have left behind.  The most apt descriptive name ever given to a child.

Yes WileyWitch, you have now met the sites teetering moron, WTH.  A fellow with lots of ideas, no clues, cannot accept that anything can be “proven” on the internet, and it is all just a figment of his imagination anyway.  He is sensible enough when he is lucky enough to have the important facts about an issue clear in his head, and this requires it was put there at some earlier time in his life which he “alludes to” without ever actually identifying it.  he does say that he has no intention of ever changing his mind about anything, or his opinions or something.  Have a bash all of you, Rabbit cannot get into it.  If you manage to pin him down to a fact which matters, and he is forced with having to apply his hitherto held views, he will retreat immediately into a stae of denial. He will deny any torture can really be known to exist, the stories and photos could all be fake, you can’t trust anything on the internet, it is all just people sitting at keyboards, besides that you might not even exist, and even he might nmot really exist, and so we might as well not get worried about trying to convince each other of anything, because it makes no difference to anything anyway.

Is that all Whattheheck?  Did Rabbit get it all?  It was paraphrased a bit but Rabbit tried to remeber all your argument, he has heard it many times, isn’t that true?

Good posts Pick of the Litter, and WileyWitch.  Nice Wack-a-moron action there Wiley, Rabbit likes you........................ would you like to meet Rabbit’s Vampire Bitch?  A Freeper for DU, 911, and almost certainly before the sun goes down on this thread, Torture?  She is nasty, feisty and oh so evil.  She could use a bit of sisterly advice, thinks Rabbit.

For old times sake, WTH, you don’t even have to buy it, I’m sure Eric won’t mind, one more who reads this may be one less making the poor bastard turn over in his grave.

Rabbit has heard they have fitted Bearings and castors to the Tomb of George Orwell, the constant turning was wearing out the casket.

George Orwell’s 1984 Online

OK, I will stand by my prior comments. I have pared it down to basics for those of you whose mind goes shut when an emotion is triggered.

I said:

“The kind of treatment in these allegations has always been against regulations and people at a much higher level should be held responsible and punished.

One phrase comes to mind from my military service nearly fifty years ago, “No excuse, Sir!” Those above you accepted no excuses for something in your scope of responsibility — neither should we. There is no higher rank than CIVILIAN. We are charged with responsibility for our military.

The only response acceptable is, “We will get to the bottom (top is better) of this and it will not be condoned.”

What we now have is not just egg on our faces, but the possibility of blood on our hands.”

Yes, “POSSIBILITY”!

Rather than join an emotionally charged lynch mob, I still prefer to: have an investigation, bring charges against whomever and wherever evidence may justify, go by the rule of law, and punish if convicted.

I am not excluding anyone of responsibility up the chain of command. I am not defending anyone, including the President. (I don’t even LIKE Bush.) But all too often I see the same stupid knee-jerk reaction here at this website, as the right-wingers exhibit toward their opponents.

If I were a terrorist I could have a ball bating you guys. (And they may well be doing so.)

What the Heck,

It is your mind that shuts down when an emotion is triggered. It is called shame.

Soldiers are being convicted of crimes. Their superiors are partially to blame. All the way to the top. I hope justice gets to the top but I doubt it.

<i>We neither know the degree of truth of the charges yet, nor the whether “innocent” is accurately descriptive of the captives.</i>

More equivocations.The truth is that this is happening. The inmates innocence or guilt is beside the point when someone gets raped or beaten by their prison guard. Or tortured by an interrogator.

It doesn’t justify torture, but do we know they never chopped anyone’s head off?

You are saying torture is not justified, then you justify it. Give your head a shake.

We know the unreleased material evidencing abuse and torture is even worse because your leaders have said so. That is why they don’t want it released. It makes them look like the bad guys. Who’d a thunk it?

I am not bad mouthing the USA. I am telling it like it is. Sorry if it hurts your feelings.

David,

You are misreading my statement. “It does not justify torture...” Plain enough, I should think.

“...but do we know they never chopped anyone’s head off?” I’m questioning an earlier assertion that these prisoners are innocent people.

As for the unreleased material, let’s wait for the release before describing it.

Which leaders have said it is worse? Why did they say it? How much is political BS?

Some have been convicted and punished, but the investigation should not end at such a low level — agreed!

If the writers on this site can get so worked up by the allegations and evidence so far, I am beginning to understand how GIs who have seen their buddies blown apart can lose it to the point of doing outrageous things to prisoners.

Understanding is NOT excusing or approving — just to avoid any further confusion.

You vollied with “The Abu Ghraib stuff was disgusting and stupid, but hardly worse than some of the stupid hazing of basic training in our own military”.

And then went on to talk about actual torture as a completely hypothetical situation that has nothing with the hullaballoo over “Abu Graib” (Iraq’s most notorious torture chamber---now under new management (still Iraqis don’t want to join the Abu Graib club, or the police, or the army--- under our gentle wings--- (Imagine that. Perhaps it’s the emotions being triggered by their past under the Arab Hitler---doesn’t have anything at all to do with stuff like what we saw in the pictures (DON’T LOOK AT THE PICTURES NOW---DON’T DWELL ON THE IMAGES (It’s no longer politically expedient.))).

Who’s making excuses? You’se making excuses. And don’t give me that ‘you’re all being hysterical’ (a.k.a “when and emotion is TRIGGERED") (emphasis mine) crapcake.

Anyone who read “triggered” emotions into the replies you got either has very poor reading comprehension, or is “projecting”.

Sooooooooo, what I hear you saying Rabbit, is that WTH is a moral relativist?  Did i hear you correctly?

It is so true, Rabbit, le cabal does the “hard work” to legalize the pathologically criminal behavior of corporate CEOS, lawyers, and lobbiests. and their shills (our government) (and there ilk), while criminalizing the working class and poor.

Your “kid” can shoot up Iraqi families then incincerate them at improvised roadblocks thrown up at night and not clearly marked, but that same kid could go to prison for growing a pot plant, harvesting his/her own bud, and smoking her in the privacy of his/her own home.

Que es, this government?  What is it doing there? Que pasa? Was ist? Je ne se quious (sp)?

I trust that WTH exists and is human (monkey family like the rest of us). Some posters posts look continually as if they are being generated by a computer program that appears to be “triggered” by key terms to go into an hysterical talking point tirade about a single issue (, of course---- hypnotic suggestion requires short single-minded phrases, and is especially effective (on sheep, young humans, and humans who aren’t paying particular attention to the media from whence the echos pour.) when repeated over, and over, and over, on television, on the radio....blah, blah, blah.

You heard it once--you heard it a thousand times.

Work calls. I’m off.

Here is some of what Secretary of War Donald Rumsfeld and Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman General Peter Pace had to say recently.

Pace also proved himself to be no ‘yes’ man. When questioned about torture by the Iraqi authorities, Rumsfeld said “obviously, the United States does not have a responsibility.” Pace, however, evidently disagreed, telling the briefing “It is the absolute responsibility of every US service member, if they see inhumane treatment being conducted, to intervene, to stop it.”

When Rumsfeld tried to correct him, saying, “I don’t think you mean they have an obligation to physically stop it; it’s to report it,” Pace stood his ground. “If they are physically present when inhumane treatment is taking place, sir, they have an obligation to try to stop it,” the Joint Chiefs Chairman stated.

Read the rest here. Rumsfeld has also banned the word “insurgent” as the result of an epiphany.

Maybe he will ban the use of the word torture and substitute some newspeak term.

Torture now to be called the Law and Order Act.

WTH, read 1984.  it might help you, it might not, but it’s a good story, you’ll enjoy it. Unless you recognise the truth of its relevance.  I’d say your safe.  Enjoy.

Wiley he isn’t a Shill............ Rabbit doubts it, ....looking back over his shoulder at him............^^..............No not a Shill, but a Moron is he.

Wth had promise thought Rabbit he has been trying to teach him, but one is facing the eternal paradox of all teaching.  It cannot be done.  Nobody teaches, the student learns...........or he does not.  The student has not prgressed beyond denial of all unpalatable, facts and locked into eternal circular logic in his efforts to try and make contact with intelligent people, while yet retaining his inherant program.  It is a cry from the soul, but the mind is catatonic and cannot provide what the soul so needs.  Understanding, something to believe in, some coherant comprehension of all which so troubles it. 

The soul cannot deny it is troubled.  Faced with PROOF that it’s Nation of Dreams is in reality a vicious and destructive, greedy and rapidly decaying, crumbling, empire, the emotional response is triggered, and yes, projected onto his opponents they all do that, the brain which was chugging along on automatic up til then, suddenly goes into shut down mode.  All areas related to logic, memory and comprehension are locked and sealed, while the remaining emergency functions, take over all communications.  The Emergency Brain, or Embra, is the thing you are dealing with when it appears he is just an automated response. 

the difference with a Shill, is that this is a conscious process, WTH, thinks he’s still debating ratioanally.  His consciousness in all those critical areas is in lockdown see, and the Embra reports to the mind regularly, it just lets it have the necessary, important facts. 

WTH Embra to WTH mind:

Everything is OK, we are doing great in the debate, the other side are confused and emotional, ranting and lying as usual when faced with our superior reasoning........you might as well just keep your head down, and we’ll let you know when you should start thinking again.

WTH has however become noticeably more strident suddenly, he is usually better behaved for Rabbit.

If Rabbit didn’t know better he would have suspected this were a Troll.  You know what this means David?  TIT

A Tit!

Troll in Training, otherwise known as a Larval Troll.

Wth, Rabbit is mortified to see this happen, it cannot be.  tell Rabbit you are not going over, or under as it happens, to the other side?  You were supposed to make Rabbit proud of you and bring blessings upon all those others who would have benefited from your example.  You were to be his model moron exorcism.  The Proof that a Moron, can be awoken through reason and patience if shown enough truth and treated with enough respect.

Instead you are succombing to the call of the swamp under the bridge.  No attempt to do more than tear down all that bothers you, which will be more and more of course.  The Troll never has a happy end.  It is like a Tick, which starts sucking and sucking and swelling and swelling until it finally bursts.  The Troll gets more and more angry and frustrated by its impotency against far better informed and reasoned people, for it seeks that which is its own worst enemy as food.  Then finally it happens. 

Boom.  The Troll self destructs, usually calling people all sorts of names, screeching about injustice and every form of self ironic and projected fault is within its power to articulate.  Thus an articulate Troll usually gives the best finale.

Whattheheck.  Rabbit beseaches you, don’t go there. 

Read 1984, think about it, and see if it doesn’t cause a few synapses to re-link, a few brain cells to open up their small membranes to a bit of nutrient flow and voila, you to can call yourself rational and aware.

Torture is already called enhanced interrogation method.

Rabbit personally is not against Torture under one circumstance actually.  Rabbit believes Torture should be used on all those who want it.  presumably this is all those who are for it.  They should be allowed to go first feels Rabbit.

In fact if they feel so strongly about it, we can have them tortured until they change there minds.  They can thus set a bechmark for the limits of torture by personal example.  Not everyone among them, perhaps they can elect representatives from among themselves to be tortured instead, but they must be bound by that person’s limits.

Spineless toads.

Supporting all the Devil does,
Until he comes for you. 
Then will hear you squeal.
We who see will harken not.
For you have done your deal.

A bargain made while yet you slept
Your soul will end its journey
Into a dungeon dark and cold
As you go your cries ring out
“I didn’t know.... why wasn’t I told?”

Torture now to be called the Law and Order Act. Matt H.

Torture is already called enhanced interrogation method. Rabbit

... or maybe Torture should be called Doubleplus Pleasure.

Keeping true to Mr. Orwell.

Actually with Orwell the point of turture was not to extract information, as O’Brian revealed, it is re-education.

Maybe torture is an enhanced educational technique.  We are told the goal is better, more democratic people who love us more.  The reality is what they no doubt sought, more people eager to join up for the “Indians”.  This is just the latest Cowboy and Indian shootup.  The Iraqis and soon the Iranians get to be Indians, like it or not.

Are you a member of the resistance?
No
Perhaps we need to educate you some more?
Bash bash, rape, rape, cut, slash, splash and bash some more.
Now do you hate us and want to kill us?
Yes, you do?  Good, now we will let you go since you were innocent, but just you remember what we taght you about American Values won’t you now ya ignorant towelhead.

“Gomer, why are you buggering that Arab?”

“I’s teaching him about American Freedom and Democracy seargent.”

“Good work private, if that doesn’t make him love us, then perhaps the pictures of his wife and kids that are pinned up in the NCO’s mess will do it.  We’ll save them for last though, you go on and have your fun now private, you are a United States Marine and you can do that all you like..  Don’t forget the pictures to be sent to Rumsfeld’s Office as per orders, we don’t want them getting bored with the last lot do we..

What the Heck,

In response to some of my comments you said “Just can’t wait to bad mouth the U.S. can you? You may well get your chance. I guess my judge of Canadians’ sense of justice was too high.

How about the proverbial, Can’t tell a book by its cover.”

If it was my country torturing detainees in custody I would be even more harsh in my criticism.

As for judging a book by it’s cover ... I try hard not to. I have not judged you personally. I have judged your country in a collective way. As you did mine.

Who’s judgement has righteousness on it’s side?

TIT

David in Canada, you know that saying about ‘when all you have is a hammer’? Same for the frontal cortex. Not everything that looks like an argument or dialogue or conversation is one; often it is (wittingly or wittingly) a convolution of words and phrases that stifles the things listed above. Sometimes it’s just a bad habit. Sometimes somebody just needs to take a nap, or drink a beer while watching a sunset.

“Our troops” (most troops come to think of it) are often deprived of these recharge times and zones, and have been for a long time. It has made many of them very edgy.

The time to in which it is most critical to “support” them will be when they get back and have to deal with double culture-shock (this may not be the country they left) and continuing and growing national domestic problems, and a whole other host of problems associated with keeping your head above water (can anybody here NOT see themselves drowning in New Orleans?).

The troops will need to be treated with care by their fellow Americans for whom many troops believe that they have just gone to hell and back and came back a different person for.

They need to be heard, not given orders or ‘common sense’ type advice. A soldier might think something like, “F**k this Dear Abby sh*t, I’m talking about f***ing WAR not a f^^ding problem with my f***ing international f***ing relationships”!!! 

I have read that Rummy rink (uh, “Link") and excerpts from it to several friends. We all stretched our foreams forward at eye level by straightening our elbows. We fanned our hands outward into the “WHAT!?” stance . Then we passed out hands (palms up) under and over each other in turn for two turns, and ended in and arms stretched straight forward from the torso with outstretched hands---thumbs out at a 110 degree angle. I’ll call it the “Good grief! How in tarnation do they put these things together!!” dance.

Keep those links coming, Dave in Canada.

peace, comfort, and health

wiley

Wolfie seems to be suggesting that, it doesn’t matter how people are killed, then this leads Rabbit to ponder the following.

Rabbit is just guessing, but Wolfie has probably not seen anyone die.  Or if he has, they were probably not gauging their eyeballs, and tearing lumps of their own flesh away in a futile effort to stop the pain. 

Rabbit contends that it makes a difference to the person who must die.  True that difference may be of only short duration, the time taken from being struck to the time they actually cease to live, and feel.  It is however quite possible to get an impression from people in the act of dying, as to how the experience is for them.  If for example they are screaming in agony, in fact there are more different levels of agonised screams than there are laughing sounds, did you know that Wolfie? The facial expressions and the positions into which the bodies of the victims are contorted and also the physical reaction, like running in utter abondoned terror and panic, or twisting and grovelling around in epileptic fits of pain, these things can all serve as indicators of how much difference th manner of death makes to this people, in their final moments.

However, let us say, I am an American, which means I am not likely to be the victim of such horrors, and thus the manner of death inflicted upon my country’s designated enemies is of no consequence to me.  Especially since I as an American, do not understand consequences, like the fact that killing and torturing people sets a precedent for how I can expect to be treated if or when the day comes I lose.

To such an American the main difference it will make to him is merely how much it will cost, and it’s effectiveness. 

Rabbit who has made WP out of Superphoshate, a home made retort and kiln as well as a bucket of water, can assure people it is as nasty as they say.  In the water it is nice, and soft, a bit like putty, but a few seconds in the air, and it burns and it burns everything it touches.  It cannot be put out.

If the idea is to kill and hurt and terrify the enemy, Rabbit has a few suggestions which Wolfie might like to pass along the chain of command, they are cheap and eefective and they may help put WP in perspective.  Having lost this post now twice, Rabbit will save and send this part first.

.............................

oops wrong thread, silly Rabbit

Consulted Dahr Jamail about terminology and got this answer:

“Here’s the very short answer to your issue.

Shia are definitely not a tribe. Shia and Sunni are the two main sects of Islam. You were correct in assuming that most of southern Iraqis are Shia---they are. But tribes in Iraq can be both sects of Islam, and some of the bigger tribes are both Shia and Sunni. In fact, there are 10s of thousands of marriages in Iraq between Shia and Sunni.

Kurds are an ethnicity in Iraq...and most of them are Sunni. But Kurds are not figured into the mix when folks talk about 60% of Iraqis are Shia and 20% are Sunni....they keep Kurds separate based on their ethnicity. This is because most of the Shia and (other) Sunni are Arab.

So that’s the rough break down.

If you talk about tribes in Iraq-they go by names-like Dulaimey, Samarri, Falluji, etc.

Hope this helps some,

Dahr”

I should have used the term “sect” to describe the Shia instead of “tribe”, and will have myself tied to the mast and pistol-whipped for making such an egregious error

(If you were playing Felonious Grammar’s drinking game “The Hammered Word” right now, you would take a shot for seeing or hearing the word “egregious").

I knew the Kurds were Meditteranean and not Arab, but was shocked to see that they are mostly Sunni.  Waddya know, learn something new every day

Wiley, you should be posting that on the White Phosphorous Lies Thread. Shia, Sunni, Kurd

HERE

See my response there. Same as Dahr’s.

You and Rabbit have the same wrong thread thing going on.

Learning new things is fun.

LOL!!! David, I just figured that out and was looking for the place I posted it! Thought of GhostRabbit and wondered if we were under the same planetary influence. 

I saw your response. It’s such a pleasure to have a dialogue with people who understand the positive value of terms, and the negative values of conflating a mis-used or misunderstood term with the quality of a person’s overall intelligence or suggest that they have no right to comment on a matter because of an error that makes them instantly illegitimate.

And this “...research before you....” crappercakes is getting OLD----it has been old for quite sometime now. Makes me wanna cuss sometime.

Is this the thread I swore not to continue posting on?

Oh, well. Nobody’s perfect.

Guess I’ll go through the motions of pasting this on the right thread, though.

see ya round

“The torture files”

“CIA agents have broken ranks to reveal the ‘cruel and inhuman’ interrogation techniques they are ordered to use at secret prisons around the world, including freezing and near-drowning. By Raymond Whitaker “
Published: 04 December 2005

http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article331070.ece

excerpts:

“Amid a growing row in the US over torture, a list of “enhanced interrogation techniques” used by CIA agents in secret prisons - including near-drowning, freezing, sleep deprivation, shaking and slapping - has been leaked. In at least one case, a prisoner has died.

The techniques have been authorised for use at CIA “black sites” abroad, at which top terror suspects are held. Last week the US-based organisation Human Rights Watch said “ghost detainees” were held at two military bases, in Poland and Romania. Similar sites in half a dozen other countries, including Afghanistan, Thailand and the Indian Ocean base of Diego Garcia, leased from Britain, are now said to have been closed.

The existence of these detention facilities, and what happens inside them, are the most secret aspect of America’s “war on terror”. In contrast to military-run camps and prisons such as Guantanamo Bay in Cuba or Abu Ghraib in Iraq, where it was impossible to shield all CIA activity from outside scrutiny, the location of the “black sites” and the identities of those held there are made known only to a handful of senior officials in the US. In the host countries, only the president and top intelligence officials are aware of them.  “

----------------------------

“Colonel Lawrence Wilkerson, chief of staff to Colin Powell when he was US Secretary of State, said last week that he knew of more than 70 “questionable deaths” of detainees under US supervision up to the end of 2002, when he left office. That figure, he added, was now around 90.

These incidents are in addition to the increasingly well-documented practice of “rendition”: flying suspects to Middle Eastern countries where torture and deaths in custody are routine. “If you want a good interrogation, you send them to Jordan. If you want them dead, you send them to Egypt or Syria,” one former CIA agent is reported as saying. The McCain amendment, however, will have no impact on foreign torturers. It is mainly aimed at halting the abuses exposed at Abu Ghraib, where routine humiliations degenerated into sadism.

Yet only the low-ranking military police caught on camera in Abu Ghraib have been prosecuted. America’s covert forces are operating in a climate of impunity, described by Cofer Black, then CIA counter-terrorism chief, who told a congressional committee in 2002: “After 9/11, the gloves were off.” At one point, according to Newsweek, the Bush administration formally told the CIA it could not be prosecuted for any technique short of inflicting the kind of pain that accompanies organ failure or death.  “

Thanks POL, back on topic, after silly witches and rabbits falling through the ceiling from other threads.

300 CIA Flights landed in Europe

The Europeans are going to get noisier and noisier about US torture, wait and see.

The real reason for torture and abuse

Which we always suspected of these beasts.

Yeah, POL, that’s on the torture topic, for sure.  So many sadists so little time. Can hardly find words to think about it---it makes me feel queezy, outraged, sad, and beaten.

IT HURTS!!!

This is interesting, the MSM in USA is ignoring the military reports, the real proof and context when reporting anything about US torture.

Counterpunch

Military autopsy reports provide indisputable proof that detainees are being tortured to death while in US military custody. Yet the US corporate media are covering it with the seriousness of a garage sale for the local Baptist Church.

A recent American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) posting of one of forty-four US military autopsy reports reads as follows:

“Final Autopsy Report: DOD 003164, (Detainee) Died as a result of asphyxia (lack of oxygen to the brain) due to strangulation as evidenced by the recently fractured hyoid bone in the neck and soft tissue hemorrhage extending downward to the level of the right thyroid cartilage. Autopsy revealed bone fracture, rib fractures, contusions in mid abdomen, back and buttocks extending to the left flank, abrasions, lateral buttocks. Contusions, back of legs and knees; abrasions on knees, left fingers and encircling to left wrist. Lacerations and superficial cuts, right 4th and 5th fingers. Also, blunt force injuries, predominately recent contusions (bruises) on the torso and lower extremities. Abrasions on left wrist are consistent with use of restraints. No evidence of defense injuries or natural disease. Manner of death is homicide. Whitehorse Detainment Facility, Nasiriyah, Iraq.”

The ACLU website further reveals how: “a 27-year-old Iraqi male died while being interrogated by Navy Seals on April 5, 2004, in Mosul, Iraq. During his confinement he was hooded, flex-cuffed, sleep deprived and subjected to hot and cold environmental conditions, including the use of cold water on his body and hood. The exact cause of death was “undetermined” although the autopsy stated that hypothermia may have contributed to his death.

Another Iraqi detainee died on January 9, 2004, in Al Asad, Iraq, while being interrogated. He was standing, shackled to the top of a doorframe with a gag in his mouth, at the time he died. The cause of death was asphyxia and blunt force injuries.

So read several of the 44 US military autopsy reports on the ACLU website -evidence of extensive abuse of US detainees in Iraq and Afghanistan 2002 through 2004. Anthony Romero, Executive Director of ACLU stated, “There is no question that US interrogations have resulted in deaths.” ACLU attorney Amrit Sing adds, “These documents present irrefutable evidence that US operatives tortured detainees to death during interrogations.”

“During the weekend there were further revelations about the role of the CIA in kidnapping suspects. According to yesterday’s Washington Post, the agency carried out a number of “erroneous renditions” - grabbing suspects off the street who later turned out to be innocent.”

“In total, “about three dozen” people may have been wrongly seized, the paper said. One of them was Khaled Masri - a German national who shared the same name as a top al-Qaida terrorist.
The CIA kidnapped him in Macedonia on Dec 31 2003, and flew him to Afghanistan, where he spent five months in appalling conditions. After realising its mistake, the administration debated whether to inform “the Germans” of the blunder, eventually dispatching the US ambassador to Germany, Daniel Coats, to tell the government, the paper said.

“They picked up the wrong people, who had no information. In many cases there was only some vague association with terrorism,” one CIA officer told the Post. “

“According to the Post, the CIA operated a network of secret prisons or “black sites” in eight countries at various times, including several in eastern Europe. Since 9/11, the agency, often working with foreign partners, had captured an estimated 3,000 people, including several key al-Qaida leaders. Members of the rendition group would blindfold suspects, cut off their clothes, and administer an enema and sleeping drugs. They would transfer prisoners to one of the CIA’s covert sites or to a detention facility in a friendly country - in Afghanistan, Central Asia or the Middle East. Things did not always go to plan, however. Mr Masri was kidnapped while the CIA’s station chief in Macedonia was away on holiday. The American Civil Liberties Union is expected to announce tomorrow that it is suing the CIA in connection with his case. Others detained included an innocent college professor who had given an al-Qaida suspect a bad grade. “It was the Camelot of counter-terrorism. We didn’t have to mess with others, and it was fun,” an official working in the CIA’s counter-terrorism centre told the Post.  “

“.............The Bush administration reviewed and renewed the presidential directive which authorises the rendition programme, and after the terrorist attacks of 9/11, the number of abductions rocketed. According to Scott Horton, an international law specialist who helped prepare a report on renditions published by the New York University School of Law and the New York City Bar Association, as many as 150 people have been “rendered” over the past four years. Most of these people have not been charged with any crime.

They are denied lawyers, their families do not know their whereabouts and their detention is concealed from the international committee of the Red Cross. “

excerpts from:

“CIA’s secret jails open up new transatlantic rift “

· Hundreds of flights landed in Germany over 2 years
· Seizure of innocent people likely to embarrass Rice

Luke Harding in Berlin
Monday December 5, 2005
The Guardian

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1657839,00.html

I understand the griping about the humiliating of one’s religion, but torture is a source of interrogation, it has been around as long as time and it is quite effective, the Geneva Convention and the UN need to keep their noses out of certain things and this is one of those issues, remember 9/11… these are our enemies.

“Rice defends US treatment of terror suspects”

Staff and agencies
Monday December 5, 2005

excerpt:

“Ms Rice neither confirmed nor denied the existence of secret prisons, but she did defend the CIA’s use of “rendition”: transporting suspects to countries where they can be questioned outside the protection of US law.

She said rendition had been practised for decades and was “not unique to United States or to the current administration”.

She also said other nations’ intelligence agencies had been working with the US to extract information from detainees.

But she added that the US did not permit or tolerate torture under any circumstances.”

http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1658214,00.html

Of course Condoleezza Rice stonewalls, isn’t that her job?  And since whisking away suspects to other countries has precedence, it makes it okay.  How do we trust her assertions that no one is tortured when unknown suspects are held in secret, in secret locations?

“But more than four years after President Bush created military tribunals, not a single case has gone to trial. Only a handful of the hundreds of detainees have even been charged. One probable reason for the military’s reluctance is the real risk that any trial will turn into a trial of the United States’ own interrogation practices. Although the military tribunal rules do not exclude the use of testimony extracted by torture, no trial will ever be viewed as legitimate if it allows such testimony, and defense lawyers are certain to make this a central issue in any proceeding.

In short, by electing early on to violate the universal prohibition on torture and cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment, the administration has not only inflicted unconscionable harm on detainees from Abu Ghraib to Guantanamo, and done incalculable damage to the U.S. image abroad, it has painted itself into a corner. It is becoming increasingly unacceptable to hold so-called enemy combatants indefinitely without trial. But we have shielded the vast majority of them from being tried for the wrongs they may well have committed.

President Bush vowed shortly after 9/11 that he would capture the terrorists and bring them to justice. But his own tactics have made that promise impossible to deliver.”

from:  “Torture Makes Justice Impossible”
By David Cole
The Los Angeles Times

Saturday 03 December 2005

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/120405G.shtml

If WTH is still around, he might be interested in some historical background about the CIA and it’s surrogates’ use of torture.

HERE

Not a pretty story.

I wonder sometimes how it is trolls so frequently insist on absolute proof, when in the real world our understanding of just about anything beyond our personal experience (and usually even then) requires reasonable inferences from both content and context to make rational conclusions.  Jay-Jay is a most blatantly egregious practitioner of (bad) reasoning from ignorance.  WTH is a tad more subtle in that he presents his view that if such is in some future fantasy ‘proven’ (exclusively in an US court of law, I surmise) to be true then of course it is condemnable, but not until his impossible standard is met.  What a jackass!

I understand the griping about the humiliating of one’s religion, but torture is a source of interrogation, it has been around as long as time and it is quite effective, the Geneva Convention and the UN need to keep their noses out of certain things and this is one of those issues, remember 9/11… these are our enemies.
Posted by Robert W. Loken Jr.

Torture is effective interrogation?  Not the business of the Geneva Conventions or the UNHRC?  911 changed everything?  What rock did you just crawl from under Robert?

“I under stand the griping about the humiliating of one’s religion, but torture is a source of interrogation, it has been around as long as time and it is quite effective, the Geneva Convention and the UN need to keep their noses out of certain things and this is one of those issues, remember 9/11… these are our enemies”. 

Posted by Robert W. Loken Jr. on Dec 5, 2005 at 10:59 AM

Well, Mr. Loken, this makes me wish I had really LEARNED how to parse sentences in that grammar class. Where to start?

“"I understand the griping about the humiliating of one’s religion,....”

Whether or not you “understand” about the “griping” about “humilating of one’s religion” is neither here nor there. “Griping” is not the issue.  Note how condescending this sentence is and how conveniently it is written so that it only refers to people askew as “one’s”. It is people that are being humiliated. Religion is not a sentient being.

“...but torture is a source of interrogation,...”.

Torture may be a form of interrogation. What else might torture be?  One could say that ripping out a person’s fingernails is a way to get their attention, and they would not be lying.

“...it has been around as long as time and it is quite effective,...”.

Quite a lot of intelligence professionals disagree. One other point, hari kiri has been around for a long time, and it too is quite effective. It doesn’t even require much of a budget (don’t have to hire a lot pathological “professionals").

“...the Geneva Convention and the UN need to keep their noses out of certain things and this is one of those issues,...”

Funny how when we, or Israel, or our ‘buddy of the day’ break international laws and treaties, the Geneva Convention and the UN should keep their noses out of it, but when someone is EVIL INCARNATE according to the resident president, (” Lord of Identifying Evil (hey! that spells LIE)) then we rail at the evil nations for violating the Geneva Convention (remember the fuss that was made when Al Jazeera showed the clean, dry, and well dressed American military captives on film?) or UN regulations. Then our government goes screaming like little girls with their “issues” to the UN----’they might do something bad with their legal nuclear power plant, what if, what if, what if...’ ( too bad it isn’t a crime to be droll, ridiculous, and predictably hypocritical).

“,,,remember 9/11…”

Is someone in danger or forgetting 9/11? It’s really starting to sound silly. You might not want to play that card too often. 
Nevertheless, I remember 9/11. Having an intuitive grip on the laws of physics and years of experience with gravity, I never bought anything, but that those buildings were demolished. I don’t see why everyone else can’t see that. It’s so OBVIOUS.

All governing bodies that are concerned are guilty of a cover-up, whether or not they were involved, for failing to do a thorough forensic investigation.  Heads in the Executive Branch, the Defense Department, FAA, and NORAD should have rolled as well. And our government DID fail to defend us that day. One point I do agree on with a poster with which I am generally in disagreement, is the old adage “No excuses, Sir”.  No one has taken responsibility for the destruction of the WTC, and nobody has taken responsibility for letting it happen. Honorable people would have at least stepped down after letting something like this happen on their watch.

No, Mr. Loken, I haven’t forgotten 9/11.

I love my country and believe me----I love Manhattan; but 9/11 is not the greatest tragedy of all time and we have far exceeded the amount of damage and murders carried out in those few events through our destruction of Iraq and Afghanistan.

“… these are our enemies”.

“Enemies” in the NIxonian sense perhaps.  I, personally, have no enemies but ignorance, deceit, and enmity itself.

“...a most blatantly egregious practitioner of (bad) reasoning from ignorance...” ---luminous beauty

Mind if I call you “lumens”? It’s easy for me to type. This troll thing is an interesting internet phenomenon.  I wonder if there might be a somewhat direct relationship between the population of trolls a society endures and the acceptability and practice of torture in that society.

I do not want to belittle terms such as “torture” and “poison”. These words should keep their sting.  But when I think about what trolls do to language the word “torture” pops into my head.  The word “torture” has been too ‘tortured’ to be allowing it to pop up in my brain as careless hyperboly (sp?).

(BTW, I can’t play my friend Felonious Grammar’s drinking game “The Hammered Word” just now, because mi compadre and I don’t bring alcohol into the house because he doesn’t drink alcohol--- ever, and I’m at home right now.

But “egregious” is still the word.  I’ll take a shot of wodka and cranberry juice for your word choice at a friend’s house this evening while we watch cable news in search of the next buzz words and loaded images for the presstitutes to wear out. We’ll howl and bark and throw things at the screen).

I like the way you site chapter and verse, luminous beauty.

Sooooooooooo, any ideas on terms to describe precisely what trolls are doing to the language they (ab)use.  The outcome of the legal battle---the battle of words---is what will ultimately define TORTURE in this whole “Operation Iraq Liberation” thingy. What do we call it?

Reminds me of a line from an Adrienne Rich--- “...language is the map of our defeat...”

peace, comfort, and health,

wiley

AARRGHHHH!! POL and GhostRabbit the articles you excerpted and the links you posted are informative, to say the least.

It hurts even to read.  This reminds me of another game my friend Felonious Grammar thunk up---it’s called “Clues that You are Working for a Sociopath or Psychopath”? 

I’d like to add this to the list:

Tries to frame high tech military torture of people swept up at random as “gathering intelligence” or ----at it’s most egregious---defines breaches as “abuse”.

This is already on my list:

Tells you to nail somebody to a cross and then if he’s taking too long to die, then to break his legs so he’ll die before the sun goes down, and then workers can have ample time to stash the bodies into caves and to get the crucifixes ready for the next “criminal” execution.

wileywitch,

You can call me whatever you want, darling.  I’ve been cussed out by angry drunken CPOs so anything less withering is candy.

I was thinking, given Mr. Loken’s medieval POV, this torture thing might just be a resurrection of the idea of Trial by Ordeal.

Not too funny for witches, maybe?

Wodka & cranberry, eh?  Reminds me it’s the season for Jamaican Rum and egg nog.  The house is out of herb right now so I’m down to the local store.

M. jagger/k. richards)

Let’s drink to the hard working people
Let’s drink to the salt of the earth
Let’s drink to the two thousand million
Let’s think of the humble of birth

bred as yio dij

Sorry for the little bit o’ nonsense.  I was trying to get the spell check I just installed to work and accidentaly hit the submit button.  It turns on but nothing happens.

So, that isn’t some secret code, or a famous quote in a ‘foreign’ language, or an islander’s hex, whatever?

Yes, the witch thing is always the same, isn’t it?  I was born before the Flood, and I’ll tell ya --- It’s always the exact same play. The costumes, locations, and names may differ, and the methods of torture may differ in appearance (but they are always in the tweaking), and all have the same end---producing unfathomable pain and terror.  Most of the adjectives and objectives are the same no matter the players. Don’t let the packaging fool ya.

It may one day bore my soul. Then who will I be? Wouldn’t be a person being tortured, that’s for damned sure.

Torturing _____ (fill in the blank with the feminized, demonized, infantilized, and brutalized scapegoat du jour) makes psychopaths feel secure.  If the victims confess they will be killed formally, otherwise they will be tortured until they confess or die, or agree to serve the oppressor in some other way. This makes psychopaths feel secure because they can’t lose, and their victims can’t win.

Disposing of the bodies can be a problem, which is part of the charm of burning at the stake. Ashes are sanitary and can be used to make soap.

Three million women were burned as witches----bummer.  And---oh yeah---they were tortured first.

What will the “oh-oh” moment look like in the U.S., when most people get it. Oh, if only I could peak.

Posted by Robert W. Loken Jr.

I understand the griping about the humiliating of one’s religion, but torture is a source of interrogation, it has been around as long as time and it is quite effective, the Geneva Convention and the UN need to keep their noses out of certain things and this is one of those issues, remember 9/11… these are our enemies.

Do you mind if Rabbit calls you Rockwooky?  Robert W. Loken Jr, (What does the W stand for?) is so long and silly.
Bobwankalot would be an alternative, but perhaps we can save that for special occasions.

It is doubful that someone who thinks Muslims may merely be insulted because some of their number are being tortured,
even to death, is likely to understand anything about another culture, so making such a claim is certainly premature.

Imperfect as both the treaty and the organsisation mentioned are, they are specifically in existance to deal with excesses such as those your Criminal Junta is currently engaged in.  The fact that they have not yet been able to put a curb on your nation’s atrocities is sad, but by no means the end of things.  Eventually you will be judged in some form of court, largely by virtue of the Geneva Convention. You may possibly face occupation by a multinational force while your country is restored to some form of sane government.  By that time, such fools as you probably are, will be welcoming them too. 

As for remembering 911, it is odd how some people seem to think others will forget about 911, as if they would.  Perhaps when you know so little about 911, for you it was a brief Television Show perhaps, it is easy to forget.  Those of us, all over the world, who have made a serious effort to get beyond the obvious lies and coverup, are not likely to forget, and for us it has never ceased to be of critical importance, absolutely vital.  Not just a wholly unsatisfactory couple of partial reports, witholding massive amounts of evidence even from secret investigations.  Until that day comes Rockwooky, Rabbit and many others will remember it like it was only yesterday. 

Don’t you forget that!

Maybe some day you may join us, in the meantime, dance like a Troll we are short on Trolls and a good Moron dance is always appreciated around here.

You are not a ressurected WTH?  Rabbit thinks WTH may have followed the fleeing Trolls, Lume and Wiley.  He did pupate (from a Larval Troll) there at the end I think and has probably re-entered the cyber world here or somewhere else as a Troll now.  Like a Werewolf, he was bitten and his first full moon came, now he is somewhere howling at the Moon.

Dear Witch, do not remind Rabbit of his ethereal state, he doesn’t like being a Ghost actually, just call him Rabbit and he is happiest.  Pretending he is still a rabbit and not merely a Ghost who hops, is a minor conceit, allow the poor misused rabbit this small grace please.

Hi Lume, this is Wiley Witch, isn’t she nice. She wacks a good Troll too. 

Dave is in Love, with the Witch also thinks Rabbit, but it may just be rebound from the loss of his beloved Trolls too.

He will be by to poke Rabbit now for saying this..................^^..................................

Indeed ...

But I will wear my heart upon my sleeve.For daws to peck at. I am not what I am.
Shakespeare - Othello

daws definition

Daws to peck at or Rabbits to poke at.

All kidding around aside ...

I understand the griping about the humiliating of one’s religion, but torture is a source of interrogation, it has been around as long as time and it is quite effective, the Geneva Convention and the UN need to keep their noses out of certain things and this is one of those issues, remember 9/11… these are our enemies.

Posted by Robert W. Loken Jr. on Dec 5, 2005 at 10:59 AM

Robert W. Loken Jr., aka : Mr Loken, Rockwooky, Bobwankalot,

You deserve the fancy HTML blockquote for your mind numbing words of wisdom.

Wow. Please tell us more, Robert W. Loken the Second. As Rabbit says we are short on your kind of commentary around here so please forgive everyone’s intense interest in you. Show us the way, Bob.

I can’t but echo Wiley, I, personally, have no enemies but ignorance, deceit, and enmity itself.

Hmmm ... Unlike Iago .. I Am What I Am. Peck and Poke away.

So, Rabbit, Lumens, David in Canada, POL, and Robertcetera, who is going to have the last word on the Torturers R’ Us thread?

Has everyone given a listen to Fire on the Prairie? Lakshmi Chaudhry is a goddess. Listening to these radio shows are like swimming in brains. Maybe that’s not such a good image, but

ANYWAY, it’s nice to hear voices. Well, to hear the voices of others outside one’s head…

Good night.

Someone finish this thread off already.

Oh Wiley, this is just foreplay. This is only post 68. But ...

Now it’s time to say good night
good night sleep tight
Now the sun turns out his light
good night sleep tight
Dream sweet dreams for me
Dream sweet dreams for you

Beatles - Good Night

Good night until ...

The sun’ll come out tomorrow
Bet your bottom dollar
That tomorrow
There’ll be sun!

Yes we do quite long threads round here, we hang about like a bunch of Cockatoos watching the Traffic, and enjoying the sedate pace of life in the cosy little world of ITT.

We are all manner of folk and we are all more than we seem. 

Yet we manage to strike a blow for truth and reason once in a while and best of all we have a good time doing it.  We wack Trolls and examine the news together, we manage to stir up enough controversy to see Rabbit regularly banned at least, the Pentagon and it’s agents pressuring ITT and at least one article which has launched itself from this site may well have gotten more than a little impetus from our long and winding thread. Anything good is worth sharing with friends. 

This is why Rabbit wants to show WileyWitch a Vampire.  Rabbit’s like Wiccans and Witches, Wizards and Warlocks, they don’t think much of Vampires or Dragons............ or Trolls............ though, it must be said. 

WWWW all good, VD is bad.

A thread is dead when you find yourself talking to the walls of an empty room.  I wish I could say that this thread is dead because torture is unheard of in the twenty-first century, but unfortunately there will probably be other articles and threads concerning this extreme abuse of power.

Please forgive these next looooong posts, but i had to share these ideas , which kind of opened my eyes to what will happen when we “withdraw” from Iraq.  It’s not quite on the torture topic, but our whole exposure to torture by our own government arose out of Iraq’s ashes.  It will take a few posts to include all the vital excerpts from this well-written article by Tom Engelhardt.

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/120205B.shtml

How (Not) to Withdraw from Iraq
By Tom Engelhardt
TomDispatch

Thursday 01 December 2005

“How to Tell Withdrawal from Its Doppelgangers”

“If you pay attention not to the war of words or the storm of confusing withdrawal proposals, but to four bedrock matters, you’ll have a far better sense of where we’re really heading. These are air power, permanent bases, an “American” Kurdistan, and oil; and, not surprisingly, they coincide with the great uncovered, or barely covered, stories of the war. In the present flurry of withdrawal discussions, only air power, thanks to Hersh, is getting any attention. The others have so far gone largely or totally unmentioned - and yet, without them, none of this makes any sense at all. “

---------------------

“ In perhaps the most important piece of reportage of the year, Up in the Air, the New Yorker’s Seymour Hersh dissects the sinews of the administration’s Iraqification strategy. Unsurprisingly, while drawing-down troops (in hopes of lessening American casualties), the Pentagon is to intensify the air war, which means, of course, loosing the US Air Force on Iraq’s urban areas where the insurgency thrives and undoubtedly increasing Iraqi casualties. Or as Hersh puts it:

“A key element of the drawdown plans, not mentioned in the President’s public statements, is that the departing American troops will be replaced by American airpower. Quick, deadly strikes by US warplanes are seen as a way to improve dramatically the combat capability of even the weakest Iraqi combat units. The danger, military experts have told me, is that, while the number of American casualties would decrease as ground troops are withdrawn, the over-all level of violence and the number of Iraqi fatalities would increase unless there are stringent controls over who bombs what.”

As Hersh essentially points out, what this is likely to mean in practice - if combat is significantly turned over to the new Iraqi Army - is sending our Air Force against targets of that army’s choosing; that is, putting American air power in service to a Shiite and Kurdish revenge war against the Sunnis - not exactly a recipe for a pacified Iraq. “

“ “The idea of ‘withdrawing’ from Vietnam was there from the beginning, though never as an actual plan. All real options for ending the war were invariably linked to ‘cutting and running,’ or ‘dishonor,’ or ‘surrender,’ or ‘humiliation,’ and so dismissed within the councils of government more or less before being raised. The attempt to prosecute the war and to withdraw from it were never separable, no less opposites. If anything, withdrawal became a way to maintain or intensify the war, while pacifying the American public.

“‘Withdrawal’ involved not departure but all sorts of departure-like maneuvers - from bombing pauses that led to fiercer bombing campaigns to negotiation offers never meant to be taken up to a ‘Vietnamization’ plan in which ground troops would be pulled out as the air war was intensified. Each gesture of withdrawal allowed the war planners to fight a little longer; but if withdrawal did not withdraw the country from the war, the war’s prosecution never brought it close to a victorious conclusion.” “

--------------

“ Add in another reality of America’s Iraq: L. Paul Bremer’s Coalition Provisional Authority, in a burst of blind pride in 2003, disbanded the Iraqi military. For well over a year or more, Pentagon plans for rebuilding it called for a future Iraqi military force (lite) of only 40,000 men with minimal armaments and essentially no air force at all! This is the Middle East, mind you. What that meant, simply enough, was that the Bush administration intended the American Army and Air Force to be the Iraqi military for eons to come. Under the pressure of the insurgency, the army part of that plan was thrown out the window. But “standing up” the Iraqi military has meant just that. Standing on the ground. There is still no real Iraqi air force. “

-----------------------

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/120205B.shtml

and finally:

“ But one major change from the Vietnam era is that we have potential “sanctuaries” in the area to withdraw to. Murtha suggested one of them, Kuwait, and it is the focus of attention at the moment. But Kurdistan, at present the quietest part of Iraq (despite fierce tensions between the two main Kurdish political parties and non-Kurdish residents of the as-yet somewhat undefined area), is also likely to be the most welcoming to American forces “withdrawing” from “Iraq.” ..................The sole reference I’ve seen to this possibility was in a recent piece by veteran reporter Martin Walker who wrote: “There are other ideas circulating in the Pentagon, including the establishment of a major and possibly permanent base in the Kurdish region of northern Iraq, where US troops are less controversial, and would be welcomed by the neighboring Turks, always worried at the prospect of an independent Kurdistan becoming a magnet for their own disaffected Kurdish minority.” “

“...............Interestingly, the Los Angeles Times has just revealed that one of the Kurdish political parties signed a private oil exploration deal with a Norwegian company. Of course, the Kurdish areas would have their own set of explosive problems, but over the next year watch for Kurdistan to surface as part of any American draw-down which isn’t actually a withdrawal. “

------------------------

“ Oil: So here we are at another of the great, hardly covered stories of the Iraq war. As Mark LeVine has recently made so clear, the Bush administration, with its former energy industry execs and consultants, was thinking oil - and Iraqi oil in particular - from literally the first moments of its existence. “[T]he few documents that have been made public from [Vice President Cheney’s] Energy Task Force… reveal not only that industry executives met with Cheney’s staff [in February 2001] but that a map of Iraq and an accompanying list of ‘Iraq oil foreign suitors’ were the center of discussion.” Hmmm… These were people who already had “peak oil” on their minds. They entered Iraq, a nation sitting on untold amounts of oil, thinking about the global control of future energy resources. They sent soldiers to guard the Oil Ministry and the oil fields, while allowing pretty much everything else to be looted as the country fell to them. They have no desire to abandon either their permanent bases or that reservoir of “black gold” to others. But beyond pious statements about preserving the Iraqi “patrimony” (i.e. oil) in the early days of the war, they never broached the subject publicly and the media followed their lead.  “

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/120205B.shtml

So 68 is just foreplay? We all know what comes after 68. When in Rome…

POL, I predicted this exactly. I also predicted our “withdrawal” will look like the March to Baghdad in reverse, or Slaughter to Baghdad, or whatever PR name we gave our merciless mission in Gulf War One while Iraqi troops were retreating.

I predict it will make the fall of Saigon look like a tea party if we don’t make real withdrawal plans soon. May take one year, may take three, but mark my word, if the U.S. doesn’t leave peacefully, it will be driven out.

(BTW, when soldiers are shooting at each other face to face (so to speak)) it has, in the past, been difficult or impossible for most men to aim and fire their rifles in trench warfare. But when one side turns around and starts to run away, our hunting instincts take over.)

Dropping bombs from thousands of feet above the target using a video game like format does not require much in the way of “feelings to be overcome”. I knew that the U.S. government would step up the air war, but consider this----some of those bombs cost several million dollars a piece. How long is China or Japan going to finance this?

It’s underreported or reported as an “accident” when Iraqi rebels shoot down our helicopters. Now they’re getting the hang of shooting down jets. One day, they are going to start taking out the big game. We will have to leave, one way or another.

All this face saving crap is a day late, and a dollar short.

Looks like the U.S. will make permanent bases and we will be there forever, or until the oil runs out or our economy switches to alternative energies, whichever comes first.

At least ITT does archive these forums, so the ideas remain accessible.

I originally posted these excerpts from Tom Engelhardt’s article on Media Matters.

There was also an excerpt from his article that had to do with Murtha and I thought it was so apt. The rabid right-wing media machine’s attempts to smear his name is just a strange distraction.

“ We’ve just entered a period where you won’t be able tell the players without a scorecard and, unfortunately, nobody in the know is going to be selling scorecards. In fact, as the public withdrawal debate began, and the administration first “lashed out” in anger at its suddenly voluble opponents and then rushed to put forward its own “plans,” the news in our papers and on TV promptly shifted into full-frontal anonymity mode. Even Congressman Murtha spoke with, it might be said, more than one tongue. After all, as a key figure on the House Defense Appropriations Subcommittee, he is known for his closeness to the military brass; and, in laying out his proposal, he offered some startling figures (on soaring attacks on US forces in Iraq and on the 50,000 soldiers who are likely to suffer from “battle fatigue") that clearly came directly from the military. Here’s how the New Yorker’s Seymour Hersh explained the Murtha proposal in a recent interview with Democracy Now’s Amy Goodman:

“He’s known for his closeness to the four-stars. They come and they bleed on him… So Murtha’s message is a message… from a lot of generals on active duty today. This is what they think, at least a significant percentage of them, I assure you. This is, I’m not over-dramatizing this. It’s a shot across the bow. They