Page 1 of 1 pages
I saw some video footage some time ago of starving North Korean children, orphaned, stealing crumbs, while the adults shooed them away like flies at an open market. The videographer (Chinese, or ex-pat, I believe) managed to record conditions in N. Korea undercover and then slip back into China over some mountains. It was horrible to witness these children suffering terribly in the midst of apathetic able-bodied adults.
North Korea holds its pride more precious than its children.
It is not surprising to see an isolationist, militarist, covert society plunge into abject poverty. And we know that poverty-stricken nations will sell anything to anybody for a low low price (and the world pays the highest price for that desperation).
“North Korea desperately needs huge amounts of capital to restructure its Soviet-style, heavy industry-focused economy and sustain the ambitious social programs it put in place during the
Posted by NaderRaider on Dec 6, 2005 at 1:51 AM
Look into my eyes, what do you see?
Cult of personality
I know your anger, I know your dreams
I
Posted by Kuya on Dec 6, 2005 at 1:52 AM
Hello NaderRaider,
To be honest, I don’t think it’s possible to blend the US system with that of NK. We have a hard enough time upholding ideals like liberty, personal initiative, and “republican values” (nothing much to do with a political party, but a mindset that connects personal efforts with community betterment; a value that was spoken of in 19th century America). Freedom and privacy are fragile enough, without incorporating unfree, anti-private ideals into our cultural mix.
When the national premise is unconditional obedience to a ruling cadre, who see enemies everywhere and who “governs” the economy for the benefit of no one but that cadre and their henchmen, I’m not sure that a compromise with anything we’d recognize as a life worth living is possible.
The Kim dynasty doesn’t want you to think. Just obey. And don’t complain, if you know what’s good for you.
My guess is, neither the most conservative nor the most radical poster here could feel anything but imprisoned in NK. No compromise is possible, we’re too opposite. They’ll have to change from within, and my greatest dismay about the place is that I believe the citizenry there will bear the hideous burden for at least a generation to come before the legacy of the Kim revolution has a prayer of ending.
Posted by Kuya on Dec 6, 2005 at 2:06 AM
To think they have so much great Ginseng too.
Probably the only good thing to come out of the place.
Kim and GWB should be good mates, Rabbit thinks they are behind the scenes, they have a lot in common.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Dec 6, 2005 at 5:56 AM
While I agree witht the majority of the points in this argument I believe there is a rather
Posted by NaderRaider on Dec 6, 2005 at 11:27 PM
There is possibly no country on earth more misunderstood - and more foreign to us westerners - than the DPRK (Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea). I wonder how many people on this list have ever talked to or even met a North Korean - or anyone who has lived or spent any amount of time there outside of an escorted press trip. The father of a good friend of mine lived there for a few years in the 1970s (I will never forget his wonderfully insightful stories of life there - YES, there is life there, despite what the western press would have us believe) - and I also know a Frenchman who has spent much time there in the last three or four years working on a documentary film. And most importantly, I taught several students from the DPRK at university in the mid 1980s. They were absolutely wonderful, warm, friendly gentlemen. They were surprisingly open about telling me about life in their isolated country, including things like their five years of mandatory service in the army. I remember one semester when the seminar was at 7.00 in the morning - and they were always so sleepy since they stayed up for the late-night films in West German television - West-Berlin was just a stone’s throw from the building we were sitting in. They had never experienced any western media before…
I always felt a bit sorry for them since they had to wear grey suits with a pin with the picture of Kim Il Sung on their lapels at all times. Apropos Kim Il Sun: everyone makes fun of the fact that they have a different calendar which starts with the year of his birth. Let’s step back for a moment and consider when our calendar begins…
I assume that few on this list are aware of the depths of the Korean soul - and of their deep longing for reunification. Especially, perhaps, on the part of South Koreans (who never accepted the American truce back then that ended the prospect of unification). Southerners marvel at the purity of the language and culture in the North - no bubblegum, McDonalds, permanent consumption propaganda and all the other cultural blasphemies of globalisation as in Seoul! The S-Koreans are by-and-large willing to make many, many sacrifices and compromises to reunite with their brothers and sisters in the north. The greatest barrier is the US, of course. They are doing everything they can to throw the spanner in the works of any and all rapprochement between them.
There is far more contact and cooperation between the two Koreas today than this article would lead one to believe.
My heart goes out to the people of North Korea. It is, of course, terrible that the pride of their leaders is more important than the well-being of their children. But let us not forget the potential role of the people’s own pride. And of a wonderful Asian sense of community rather foreign to us selfish westerners. And let us, above all, not forget the extent to which 50 years of imperialist US presence on their peninsula has contributed to this situation.
Last thought: Rabbit hit the nail on the head with his comment that Kim Jong Il and W are really soul brothers…
Posted by Anarcho-Sozi on Dec 7, 2005 at 2:13 PM
It would be Funny how many things the current US leaders have in common with the system there.(If it werent so terrible)
“Army first” where the majority of OUR tax dollars go to that black hole called the pentigon.
The restrictions on the flow of information,like our goverment planting news stories on local stations,and making them appear like news,instead of the proaganda they are. Putting false reporters in the presidental press conferances(like that Gannon guy),so the (so called)pres can avoid the difficult questions from the real press.
Patriotism! Look how the Neocons wrap themselves in the flag,and declare,“if your not with us your against us”(problem is,their not with US the good citizans of the good ole USA,they have their own agenda,and it is NOT for the benefit of our county.)Though they are masters of making the masses think they are.
Isolationism!Our pResident Select has alienated even our closest allies!refuses to join the world in the Kyoto treaty,ect…
to name just a few.How long before,our school kids are out scrounging for food too?
Posted by Kaw Valley Kid on Dec 7, 2005 at 2:34 PM
Bravo, Kaw Valley Kid!
Maybe you Americans aren’t all as hoodwinked as we think…
Posted by Anarcho-Sozi on Dec 7, 2005 at 2:41 PM
Hello again NaderRaider,
I certainly agree that education is pivotal in its influence over any nation’s culture. Being a high school teacher myself and having taught rich kids, broke kids, kids of virtually every human tribe, public school and private, my biggest personal agenda is to get them accustomed to thinking critically, being able to search out information and to evaluate it for quality and possible biases, and to always keep active their appetite for learning new things. Sadly, a substantial part of my public school career has made me see how little intellectual development most kids actually experience.
The emphasis you make upon the differential funding among schools is well-made. Although some would say “throwing money at a problem won’t solve it” (the problem being substandard schools sending underequipped graduates into the world), I think it’s ridiculous to suggest that adequate, intelligently allocated resources have nothing to do with the quality of education delivered. It’s also absurd to subtract personal motivation, family stability and support, and other non-school factors, but financially strapped, overcrowded schools just have a harder time guiding enough students toward their highest intellectual potentials.
Assuming that’s their agenda.
The thing is, much of American education is predicated on local control, rather than national directives. There are national standards along some aspects of schooling (e.g. equality of access among genders, the requirement that kids with special needs be able to get appropriate education within their local district, etc), but the greatest share of decisions made governing schools are made at the district and state levels. This goes hand-in-hand with having local and state taxes on property (and other sources) form the bulk of the resource base for schools, which of course you pointed out yourself. There’s little likelihood that this will change any time soon.
But in spite of that (or maybe exclusive from it, actually), it’s the development of the mind that should be the primary focus of schools. Not every student is a whiz kid, and people’s individual learning styles are not always conducive to the textual emphasis most teachers and schools still have, but anyone can develop their ability to learn, to increase their ability to understand complex subjects and issues, to express themselves in spoken and written form, and to firm up their habit of thinking of themselves as learners. My view is, if schools focus their energies on helping kids see that a sharp, active mind is a wonderful benefit in-and-of itself, and then offering them the guidance, support, and practice in developing themselves intellectually, that’s probably the best mission they can undertake. I find this to be a better approach than inculcating specific value-systems of the ideological sort. Anyone who has read my posts knows I think “intelligent design”, for instance, has no place in a biology class but is appropriately included in a course on the study of religion. I would also include advocacy of a socialistic value system, or an anti-globalization one. I prefer to help them become sharp, active thinkers, and that means they may disagree with a value-system I’m personally attached to.
(to continue)
Posted by Kuya on Dec 8, 2005 at 1:12 AM
(continues)
I still think the cultural and historical differences between a democratic republic (even if I might think that some of its democratic institutions are currently in crisis) and an autocratic one-party police state can’t be feasibly integrated because the premises they begin from and the values that stem from them are so intensely different. The values driving their schooling model will also be unharmonious, I think. My agenda is to help kids develop intellectual power, skilled approaches to finding and understanding information, inquisitiveness, attitudes conducive to questioning, and a belief in excellence (as opposed to equality, actually), as well as a recognition that they’re connected to other people, even people very foreign to them. Add work ethic to that and I think you’ll have kids who grow into adults who are equipped to make the most of what it is to live in a free society (and to make that society more free if it is becoming too restrictive). That probably won’t remove an appetite for wealth from them, but actually I don’t have a problem with people wanting to make their lives better materially as well as intellectually and morally. But maybe they’ll be better able to grasp the importance of ethics if their minds are active. Maybe you would agree, whether it’s a market-driven heterogenous culture or a centrally governed monoculture, in the absence of ethical understandings that inhibit gratuitous strictures and brutality, all you get is non-reflective obedience and amoral expediency (therefore so easily becoming victimizing) in the way human relationships are carried out.
Posted by Kuya on Dec 8, 2005 at 1:13 AM
I think in my post with the 3:12 time signature I may have implied that I have a socialistic, anti-global value system. That’s not the case, sorry to be unclear.
Posted by Kuya on Dec 8, 2005 at 1:17 AM
Hello Anarcho-Sozi,
What a trippin’ handle you use, I’ve always found it intriguing.
Anyway, reflecting on your entry about the two Koreas, I’ve had some extremely interesting conversations with students and parents from the South as a teacher in international schools in Asia. As you mention, the great majority of those I spoke with were intensely anxious that the division between the two be eroded and eventually done away with. Most of those who talked to me focused on the divided families who had so few opportunities to see each other, or even to communicate in any way at all. This was years ago, but during my time at a school in Pakistan, families from North and South were allowed to meet with each other for the very first time since the Korean War suspended (perhaps you’re aware that technically, a peace between the two has never been concluded, so I can’t say “ended”). My Korean acquaintances were delighted but also sad. Delighted that the opportunity for long-separated kin to finally meet, but terribly sad that it was under such controlled, restrictive conditions, hardly lasting as long as the time one might spend in a cinema watching a movie.
As is well-known, Koreans are intensely family-oriented.
Fewer were willing to talk politics outright; most skirted the issue, after all I’m not Korean and am American, so maybe they thought I’d have a pre-cooked perception about what they’d say. Those few who did talk politics expressed reservations about the American presence in SK, but also described serious concerns about NK military might and the ambitions the North was perceived to have in terms of expanding their control over the peninsula. A couple of fathers (no Korean mother talked politics in my presence) were quite vocal that the US should not depart; they felt that NK would become too dangerous if they did. A couple of others thought that the SK forces should take charge and that the Americans could draw down any time, they were ready for them to leave.
I don’t know that I have a massively conclusive statement to sum all this up, I simply share these experiences with you.
Posted by Kuya on Dec 8, 2005 at 1:44 AM
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Reader Comments
I saw some video footage some time ago of starving North Korean children, orphaned, stealing crumbs, while the adults shooed them away like flies at an open market. The videographer (Chinese, or ex-pat, I believe) managed to record conditions in N. Korea undercover and then slip back into China over some mountains. It was horrible to witness these children suffering terribly in the midst of apathetic able-bodied adults.
North Korea holds its pride more precious than its children.
It is not surprising to see an isolationist, militarist, covert society plunge into abject poverty. And we know that poverty-stricken nations will sell anything to anybody for a low low price (and the world pays the highest price for that desperation).
“North Korea desperately needs huge amounts of capital to restructure its Soviet-style, heavy industry-focused economy and sustain the ambitious social programs it put in place during the
Look into my eyes, what do you see?
Cult of personality
I know your anger, I know your dreams
I
Hello NaderRaider,
To be honest, I don’t think it’s possible to blend the US system with that of NK. We have a hard enough time upholding ideals like liberty, personal initiative, and “republican values” (nothing much to do with a political party, but a mindset that connects personal efforts with community betterment; a value that was spoken of in 19th century America). Freedom and privacy are fragile enough, without incorporating unfree, anti-private ideals into our cultural mix.
When the national premise is unconditional obedience to a ruling cadre, who see enemies everywhere and who “governs” the economy for the benefit of no one but that cadre and their henchmen, I’m not sure that a compromise with anything we’d recognize as a life worth living is possible.
The Kim dynasty doesn’t want you to think. Just obey. And don’t complain, if you know what’s good for you.
My guess is, neither the most conservative nor the most radical poster here could feel anything but imprisoned in NK. No compromise is possible, we’re too opposite. They’ll have to change from within, and my greatest dismay about the place is that I believe the citizenry there will bear the hideous burden for at least a generation to come before the legacy of the Kim revolution has a prayer of ending.
To think they have so much great Ginseng too.
Probably the only good thing to come out of the place.
Kim and GWB should be good mates, Rabbit thinks they are behind the scenes, they have a lot in common.
While I agree witht the majority of the points in this argument I believe there is a rather
There is possibly no country on earth more misunderstood - and more foreign to us westerners - than the DPRK (Democratic Peoples Republic of Korea). I wonder how many people on this list have ever talked to or even met a North Korean - or anyone who has lived or spent any amount of time there outside of an escorted press trip. The father of a good friend of mine lived there for a few years in the 1970s (I will never forget his wonderfully insightful stories of life there - YES, there is life there, despite what the western press would have us believe) - and I also know a Frenchman who has spent much time there in the last three or four years working on a documentary film. And most importantly, I taught several students from the DPRK at university in the mid 1980s. They were absolutely wonderful, warm, friendly gentlemen. They were surprisingly open about telling me about life in their isolated country, including things like their five years of mandatory service in the army. I remember one semester when the seminar was at 7.00 in the morning - and they were always so sleepy since they stayed up for the late-night films in West German television - West-Berlin was just a stone’s throw from the building we were sitting in. They had never experienced any western media before…
I always felt a bit sorry for them since they had to wear grey suits with a pin with the picture of Kim Il Sung on their lapels at all times. Apropos Kim Il Sun: everyone makes fun of the fact that they have a different calendar which starts with the year of his birth. Let’s step back for a moment and consider when our calendar begins…
I assume that few on this list are aware of the depths of the Korean soul - and of their deep longing for reunification. Especially, perhaps, on the part of South Koreans (who never accepted the American truce back then that ended the prospect of unification). Southerners marvel at the purity of the language and culture in the North - no bubblegum, McDonalds, permanent consumption propaganda and all the other cultural blasphemies of globalisation as in Seoul! The S-Koreans are by-and-large willing to make many, many sacrifices and compromises to reunite with their brothers and sisters in the north. The greatest barrier is the US, of course. They are doing everything they can to throw the spanner in the works of any and all rapprochement between them.
There is far more contact and cooperation between the two Koreas today than this article would lead one to believe.
My heart goes out to the people of North Korea. It is, of course, terrible that the pride of their leaders is more important than the well-being of their children. But let us not forget the potential role of the people’s own pride. And of a wonderful Asian sense of community rather foreign to us selfish westerners. And let us, above all, not forget the extent to which 50 years of imperialist US presence on their peninsula has contributed to this situation.
Last thought: Rabbit hit the nail on the head with his comment that Kim Jong Il and W are really soul brothers…
It would be Funny how many things the current US leaders have in common with the system there.(If it werent so terrible)
“Army first” where the majority of OUR tax dollars go to that black hole called the pentigon.
The restrictions on the flow of information,like our goverment planting news stories on local stations,and making them appear like news,instead of the proaganda they are. Putting false reporters in the presidental press conferances(like that Gannon guy),so the (so called)pres can avoid the difficult questions from the real press.
Patriotism! Look how the Neocons wrap themselves in the flag,and declare,“if your not with us your against us”(problem is,their not with US the good citizans of the good ole USA,they have their own agenda,and it is NOT for the benefit of our county.)Though they are masters of making the masses think they are.
Isolationism!Our pResident Select has alienated even our closest allies!refuses to join the world in the Kyoto treaty,ect…
to name just a few.How long before,our school kids are out scrounging for food too?
Bravo, Kaw Valley Kid!
Maybe you Americans aren’t all as hoodwinked as we think…
Hello again NaderRaider,
I certainly agree that education is pivotal in its influence over any nation’s culture. Being a high school teacher myself and having taught rich kids, broke kids, kids of virtually every human tribe, public school and private, my biggest personal agenda is to get them accustomed to thinking critically, being able to search out information and to evaluate it for quality and possible biases, and to always keep active their appetite for learning new things. Sadly, a substantial part of my public school career has made me see how little intellectual development most kids actually experience.
The emphasis you make upon the differential funding among schools is well-made. Although some would say “throwing money at a problem won’t solve it” (the problem being substandard schools sending underequipped graduates into the world), I think it’s ridiculous to suggest that adequate, intelligently allocated resources have nothing to do with the quality of education delivered. It’s also absurd to subtract personal motivation, family stability and support, and other non-school factors, but financially strapped, overcrowded schools just have a harder time guiding enough students toward their highest intellectual potentials.
Assuming that’s their agenda.
The thing is, much of American education is predicated on local control, rather than national directives. There are national standards along some aspects of schooling (e.g. equality of access among genders, the requirement that kids with special needs be able to get appropriate education within their local district, etc), but the greatest share of decisions made governing schools are made at the district and state levels. This goes hand-in-hand with having local and state taxes on property (and other sources) form the bulk of the resource base for schools, which of course you pointed out yourself. There’s little likelihood that this will change any time soon.
But in spite of that (or maybe exclusive from it, actually), it’s the development of the mind that should be the primary focus of schools. Not every student is a whiz kid, and people’s individual learning styles are not always conducive to the textual emphasis most teachers and schools still have, but anyone can develop their ability to learn, to increase their ability to understand complex subjects and issues, to express themselves in spoken and written form, and to firm up their habit of thinking of themselves as learners. My view is, if schools focus their energies on helping kids see that a sharp, active mind is a wonderful benefit in-and-of itself, and then offering them the guidance, support, and practice in developing themselves intellectually, that’s probably the best mission they can undertake. I find this to be a better approach than inculcating specific value-systems of the ideological sort. Anyone who has read my posts knows I think “intelligent design”, for instance, has no place in a biology class but is appropriately included in a course on the study of religion. I would also include advocacy of a socialistic value system, or an anti-globalization one. I prefer to help them become sharp, active thinkers, and that means they may disagree with a value-system I’m personally attached to.
(to continue)
(continues)
I still think the cultural and historical differences between a democratic republic (even if I might think that some of its democratic institutions are currently in crisis) and an autocratic one-party police state can’t be feasibly integrated because the premises they begin from and the values that stem from them are so intensely different. The values driving their schooling model will also be unharmonious, I think. My agenda is to help kids develop intellectual power, skilled approaches to finding and understanding information, inquisitiveness, attitudes conducive to questioning, and a belief in excellence (as opposed to equality, actually), as well as a recognition that they’re connected to other people, even people very foreign to them. Add work ethic to that and I think you’ll have kids who grow into adults who are equipped to make the most of what it is to live in a free society (and to make that society more free if it is becoming too restrictive). That probably won’t remove an appetite for wealth from them, but actually I don’t have a problem with people wanting to make their lives better materially as well as intellectually and morally. But maybe they’ll be better able to grasp the importance of ethics if their minds are active. Maybe you would agree, whether it’s a market-driven heterogenous culture or a centrally governed monoculture, in the absence of ethical understandings that inhibit gratuitous strictures and brutality, all you get is non-reflective obedience and amoral expediency (therefore so easily becoming victimizing) in the way human relationships are carried out.
I think in my post with the 3:12 time signature I may have implied that I have a socialistic, anti-global value system. That’s not the case, sorry to be unclear.
Hello Anarcho-Sozi,
What a trippin’ handle you use, I’ve always found it intriguing.
Anyway, reflecting on your entry about the two Koreas, I’ve had some extremely interesting conversations with students and parents from the South as a teacher in international schools in Asia. As you mention, the great majority of those I spoke with were intensely anxious that the division between the two be eroded and eventually done away with. Most of those who talked to me focused on the divided families who had so few opportunities to see each other, or even to communicate in any way at all. This was years ago, but during my time at a school in Pakistan, families from North and South were allowed to meet with each other for the very first time since the Korean War suspended (perhaps you’re aware that technically, a peace between the two has never been concluded, so I can’t say “ended”). My Korean acquaintances were delighted but also sad. Delighted that the opportunity for long-separated kin to finally meet, but terribly sad that it was under such controlled, restrictive conditions, hardly lasting as long as the time one might spend in a cinema watching a movie.
As is well-known, Koreans are intensely family-oriented.
Fewer were willing to talk politics outright; most skirted the issue, after all I’m not Korean and am American, so maybe they thought I’d have a pre-cooked perception about what they’d say. Those few who did talk politics expressed reservations about the American presence in SK, but also described serious concerns about NK military might and the ambitions the North was perceived to have in terms of expanding their control over the peninsula. A couple of fathers (no Korean mother talked politics in my presence) were quite vocal that the US should not depart; they felt that NK would become too dangerous if they did. A couple of others thought that the SK forces should take charge and that the Americans could draw down any time, they were ready for them to leave.
I don’t know that I have a massively conclusive statement to sum all this up, I simply share these experiences with you.
Korean Ginseng and Korean Kimchi too.
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