What’s the 411 on 9/11?

You’re right Wiley…what I remember of my of own young Canadian experience on airforce bases near Bomark missles, where the Yanks used to test fly their jet fighters, is irrelevent. What do I know about their habits? Or the relevence of same to reaction times?

So are the impressions of my father who taught air weapons controllers (  the North East. area, ironically,.He retired from service from Syracuse/Rome, during the downsizing of those bases. I guess he was a shit instructor…lokk what happened!) What does he know about flight crews, air weapon controlling, or anything really.

I guess I could credit my sister, who is an engineer who develops flight simulation programs to help commercial airports improve their efficiency and flight load….she told me about the exercises that were occurring at that time in North East after the fact. She worked out of Heathrow at that time ( a pretty big airport eh? Such a responsibility on her young shoulders, creating that real time exercise, where air traffic controllers reacted to real and simulated flights. I wonder what fail safes were in place during the North East exercise, and if a 5 or 10 minutes wait for the reality sandwich buffet made all the difference in reaction time. I wonder too, about the number of people who are informed about these scenarios in advance….maybe, instead of incarcerating people by ethnic affliation, we should be grilling all air traffic controllers down in Cuba, eh? Because that has to be one of the biggest ‘secrets’ on the planet. There’s probably a few million guilt’ parties, all with their own life agenda, who were privy to that ‘secret’ )

We are a family that are absolutely full of shit, and are informed only by our experience and our education…..a very sad reference indeed.

Whereas Wiley can only be right…not only for the Norad experience, but also for the ability to link to internet sites

Ad hominem, ipso facto

http://miriamwebster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=bullshit

Oh, now you have a sister that made flight simulations? What next? You? So you have all this experience at your disposal and still don’t have enough inside information to find sources on line to share with us.

What have you said besides citing your family and your wishes and your knowledge of simple math? Is everyone supposed to take everything you say at face value. Your father assures you of this or that about 9/11. Now your sister writes exercises. What do you do, besides emote and talk about your family and your yet to be demonstrated math skills?

If being contradicted is all you can take, perhaps you should look for a more accomodating place to express your wishful thinking and your air controlling family ties.

Cut the victim crap.  d

It’s not victim crap….I’m playing your game , but refusing to go to the most idiotic extreme, where I start citing internet websites as representative of some sort of fact.

It’s all part of my stratagem to lessen the bullshit and expand the creative expression of hope and subjective experience on the internet.

Maybe because I find this a very absurd thread, full of paranoia,and pomposity. And you are tenaciously, clinging to it like it’s some sort of life line.

Maybe because I think my delusions are more sensible than yours.

PS. Like So many Americans, you may be” trying to construct a life that makes sense from things”.... you find on the World Wide Web.

I’d say “lol” at this point, usually, to indicate an ironic reference, but that would only raise Wileys hackles.

OMG, how cool! Her sister programs flight simulations and she’s into math? I just adore quadriatics! Here’s one for her to cut her teeth on:

Minerva,
show your stuff by giving me the qaud formula, the vertex, and the intercepts of this problem:

A parabola that passes through ( 10, 26 ), ( 20, 83 ), and ( 30, 128 ). Feel free to use the regression method since that’s how I did part of it.

I just adore women who are into math. That is so sexy! Have fun!

Hey Stinky Pete…

how stinky are you?

Because I want to fix you up with my sister!

Yes, you heard it, my sister needs a man!

Because aside from the fact that she is an engineer, develops flight simulation programs for major airports, and has a black belt in kick boxing, she is now 35 years old and ‘unattached’.

She don’t even have no baby! The family can barely raise it’s collective head, really.

So here’s your chance, fellas, to get next to a woman who has the inside scoop on air traffic controlling, answers to the math problems you can’t figure out yourself, and the 411 on Robert Jordan ( yes…sadly, my sister is an intelligent, flight simulating, kick boxing, sci fi/fantasy appreciating ,no baby no man geek)

Form a line behind Stinky Pete, ok?

BTW, Minerva, my step-father worked for General Dynamics which is now GrummonNorthrup(? (I think)something like that) and there was an air force base adjacent to GD, and jets being tested over our heads, all the day, waking up the babies…I was always informed when another F-111 crashed and burned in Viet Nam…

...but I wouldn’t put that on my resume.

Why are you on this thread, Minerva? If you don’t want to discuss 9/11 with any references not already in your head, why then do you sully your pretty little head?

Seems a little silly to log on, go into a thread discussing 9/11,  and to then declare that all other web references are invalid. Can’t you be subjective by yourself? Do you really think you’re doing people favors? Do you really think that you have a life, and we don’t? Are you projecting?

If you don’t want to talk about 9/11, then go to another thread, doll face. You can think anything you want to about your delusions, but when you pay your nickel by posting your delusions then you take your chances. That’s fair. That’s life.

No…but you carry your 28 year old Norad experience like some sort of Mount Olympus torch throughout this side show.

And then use your ability to link to other spurious and paranoid pontificators as ‘proof’.

Just noticing.

Minerva, since your sister is on the cutting edge in air traffic control, what are her thoughts about privatization?

Show me where I said that something was “proof”. Take your time.

And what you are doing in the “side show” if you aren’t a “freak” yourself?

Good questions wiley….I must be a freak too, because I’m compulsively reacting to email nitoifications about updates at this site, simply for my own amusement.

But I’m having a fun time, talking nonsense with you.

Cheers

...and no hard feelings on my part ( although I’m continuing to ignore the reality that you are becoming more reactive and angrier with me)

I guess I’m done, unless Stinky and others want to take the geek spinster sister off our hands…I may have to respond to those posts, because, realistically, my sister isn’t getting any younger.

If you read my posts, you might have noticed that the reason I started talking about my radar experience was because I knew better than to believe that all the air traffic controllers covering all those air spaces could have missed all those planes. Air space is intensely guarded. This is a simple fact.

Air traffic controllers are not “Beetle Baileys”. Oh, and I knew two former marines that were air traffic controllers at O’Hare and L.A. International. Whoop-di-doo. (They were intense.)

The exercise running concurrently with real time on 9/11 was the first thing that made sense to me—-whatever you may think about it—- I find it impossible to believe that all those air traffic controllers screwed up while flights were off schedule and deviating from flight plans for 45 minutes to an hour.

While I worked for NORAD we had a false alarm that was caused by someone putting a tape into real time. That problem was addressed by many committees with much fervor, so that that would never happen again. It struck me as particularly negligent for NORAD to be confusing real time air traffic with a simulated exercise. If my experience, and talking about it in a forum in which NORAD is part of the topic bothers you then that’s your problem.

Furthermore, the only site with “paranoid pontificators”  I’ve linked to is that last freeper link. Though that article was reprinted in the Boston Globe and many other newspapers, I posted the freeper link because Natalie couldn’t dismiss that as “liberal paranoia”.

Do you have a problem with that? I thought it was fairly rational myself. And if you haven’t noticed, I am fairly tentative with my speech. 

The topic is 9/11—-I consider questioning the official story to be a valuable pursuit even if it’s not accredited or approved of by you (who is mysteriously here).

I agree Wiley…when I learned about the exercise from my sister shortly after the attacks, I understood why there was a delay. When I asked my father that day, when we were all watching the news, and hearing the jets scream out, my father only said “there’s a problem”, because he knew the expectations of the job, and knew that first plane would not have hit New York had the air weapons people been more reality focussed….

my sisters insights about the simulations that were being implemented in that period to accomodate the need for increased air traffic, and the links ( some of which I’ve seen at this thread) that she directed me to

helped me understand what my father meant when he said “There was a problem”.

We all knew the reaction time was delayed..in hindsight, the only conspiracy theory I feel comfortable supporting is the probability that the plane that crashed in PA, ostensibly aimed at Washington DC, was shot down by our own military rather than taken down by the ‘Let’s Roll” crew.

I don’t think we’ll ever know the truth about this…we are so imperfect, and have so much to protect, that our history can only reflect our basic confusion about our history..
anything else is a lie, I guess.

Sorry if I offended you Wiley.

I got carried away

answers to the math problems you can’t figure out yourself

Actually, the problem is rather simple and quadriatic regressions are taught here around the 8th grade…it’s considered simple math and is quite a necessity to both pilots and anyone else that needs to know the trajectory of an object or even to figure out how to make a water fountain that doesn’t squirt somebody in the eye.

After doing the quadriatic regression method (the other is much longer), we come up with the quadriatic formula:

y = -0.06X^2 + 7.5X - 43

from there, we are able to grab the a, b, and c from the equasion for the quad formula.

a= -0.06 b= 7.5 c= -43

Then we take the quadriatic formula and plug in the values for what we have to get the X intecepts:

(-(7.5)±√((7.5)^2 - 4(-0.06)(-49)) / (2(-0.06))

X ints = (0,6.0236), (0,118.976)

The Y int is what is shown as c:

Y int = -43

The X vertex is simply gained by the formula:

(-(7.5)) / (2(-.06))

X vertex = 62.5

The Y vertex is gained from plugging the X vertex into the original formula (standard form):

y = -0.06(62.5)^2 + 7.5(62.5) - 43

Y vertex = 191.375

So since we know that the vertex is a given point (X,Y), we also know that we just plug in our axis vertexes to get:

Vertex = (62.5, 191.375)

See how simple that was?

Jeez, I thought you were good at “simple math.” I feel kinda’ cheated because trajectory and projectile paths are dependant on this kind of simple math and you seemed so sure of yourself.

About your sister, I already have a young 12 year old girl and I have no problem getting dates here. If she is indeed true to your description, I hope she is the one who reproduces because she sounds smart as a whip. Good for her! Since I program myself, I am thrilled to hear about a fellow programmer. We are hot!

I’ll leave you to the witch. Good luck, kiddo!

Since that part about the girl of 12 sounds strange, I should clarify it by explaining that I meant that I already have a duaghter of 12. I was once married, but now I am deeply involved with a woman who I’ve been with for somewhere around the 6 years since my divorce.

~Pete

OK Stinky Pete…

Sorry about dropping that ball on the sideshow test…

I’ll practice my juggling.

Sorry to hear you’re all hooked up…

you sound like the sort of sexy geek my sister would enjoy meeting…..

if you find yourself suddenly free, watch my sister, Lara, on Jeopardy next month.

She is the cutest engineering, Robert Jordan afficionadoing, air traffic programming, kick boxing black belt you ever met. For a 35 year old, no baby spinster that is..

I hope she wins some cash so she can pay her home off.

Hail Lara!

I’m sorry Stinky…I’ve already alerted the FBI to you, suggesting that you may be intimate with 12 year olds…

oops!

The message you posted was so ambiguous, I could only interpret it in the worst possible way…

who would decypher the idea that you were the parent of a young girl?

I ask you?

<b>I’ve already alerted the FBI to you<b>

Okay, it was a horrible construct of a sentence. I am the kind of guy that think that I may be arrested for watching a movie with Jessica Alba in it because she just looks so young. I’m into women that are usually a bit older that me and my girlfriend is about 8 years my senior…but man, is she hot and smart to boot… Lucky me!

<b>For a 35 year old, no baby spinster that is<b>

Well, she may just like being free for all the studs to drool over.

So, everything is peachy. Cool. I will be nice to you. 

Yeah, I knew there was something wrong from the go, and that is was more than an error among controllers.

BTW, there is a lot of very good and solid information on the net, just like there is a lot of very good and solid information in a library. The net is where I found the date of my false alarm and the official explanation. My captain lied. The web is where I found Bruce Blair—-a missilier, head of the Center for Defense Information and a font of information. Lots and lots of very good information on the web. You can even e-mail people with questions, and in my experience I’ve found that there’s a real good chance of getting an answer back.

Yeah, that’s all the web is—-one huge library, address book, and mailbox . And the PC is a little typewriter and a huge filing cabinet.

I and Rabbitellonia, for sure think that something is more than a little fishy here with the official story. I don’t buy it. Period. Rabbitabilia is more over the top than I am, but there is always some grist for the miggle, or whatever in the links he posts.

I believe that it is entirely possible to learn the truth about what happened on 9/11.

Stinky Pete!—-don’t ever write a sentence like that again!  Good Gawd, and good grief, you should have had your 12 year old daughter proofread it for you.

SLAP!!!

SLAP!!!

You’re right, witch…*SIGH*...and it stinks that the preview function on this thread doesn’t work (at least for me). I felt like a maroon for not catching that fubar error. In my defense, I am somewhat sedated from having a day surgery procedure done today. They told me that I would feel the effects for 24 hours.

Oh, well…

Under the influence, hey? Not a bad defense.

I didn’t look at your math. You can keep that in your pants too.

Minerva

For you to say this:

Because (and I hope you’ll excuse this statement as the ravings of a woman with little diplomacy) I do not find the ‘facts’, url’s, and conspiracy theories being presented at this website particularly telling.

Is ridiculous, and I’m saying this as the straight talk of a rabbit with with lots of diplomacy, but little urge to engage it here.

You cannot possibly have read even half of the sources, the articles or the postings on this thread, and yet make such a bland and totally preposterous statement.  You have advanced NOTHING but feeble mewing “hopes” that the world isn’t so nasty. 

BAD LUCK my little DRONGO!

The world is far worse, than you could possibly concieve of yet, for you are still stuck on base 1.  The whole process begins by recognising that 911, was a giant, elaborate CON JOB.

Can you really think that SO MANY intelligent and qualified people, in rapidly increasing numbers, and including the governments of several nations, are making it all up?

The USA is collapsing from within and from without, the economy is a basket case, the military is stretched to the max, and is about to be deployed in even more insane and desperate adventures which have NO justification except OIL and ISRAEL in the case of IRAN and ISRAEL only in the case of <a >SYRIA.</a>

You can’t even manage a little storm anymore without massive national disaster still ongoing.

Oz had a more powerful storm a week ago and it didn’t do shit, we build the Northwest towns to take it.  Cuba coped with a bigger and worse storm a month or two before the USA failed dismally to cope with Katrina.  You’re all washed up, and you still think its all apples.

Minerva you are in abject denial, and are coming across as a bit hysterical and an idiot.

Read about the ONLY reason the US is going to attack   Syria.

Oh MY GOD.  The rabbit is beside himself.  He is amused…very much.  What a darling little twit.

This is so extraordinary that Rabbit will be adding it to a special collection of weird things Trolls say.

It’s not victim crap….I’m playing your game , but refusing to go to the most idiotic extreme, where I start citing internet websites as representative of some sort of fact.

You are the only one admitting to any delusions, but it is good to see you have reached this point in your little episode of self therapy.  Your delusions are only more sensible because you don’t have to change any deeply held beliefs by deluding yourself.  Rational people, do alter their beliefs if it becomes necessary.  It is necessary when you have been told a lie to accept it. 

Minny

No doubt you would take a lot of convincing your partner was being unfaithful, but there comes a time when you are being so ridiculous that to continue to delude yourself he is faithful is pathetic.  You have crossed that Rubicon.  You are Pathetic.  It saddens Rabbit to tell you this, but you are being so transparently pathetic in your BEGGING for us to affirm your delusions have some merit.  The bastards are making Torture LEGAL, they are using Depleted Uranium and poisoning the troops.  56% of the Gulf War veterans are disabled.  The first and second wars were 5% and the Vietnam war was 10% disabled veterans, the Gulf war was 56%.

The government isn’t just a bit careless, or fiscally irresponsible, it has blown everything.  Blown the biggest Budget surplus in history, under Clinton, and turned it into a deficit which has the world standing in SHOCK and AWE.

The government isn’t a bit heavy handed, they have used the US military to attack illegally a sovereign nation and laid that nation waste whilst Torturing and killing civilians in the thousands.  They are making Torture and arrest withgout trial part of law. 

They are not honest, patriotic and they don’t give a fuck about you, or anyone who doesn’t already know he’s got a ticket out.  The POTUS called the CONSTITUTION a GODDAMNED PIECE OF PAPER!  He is not a CHristian, he has never been seen inside a Chruch, did you know that dearie?  He would probably catch fire if he set foot inside a holy church.

We know why you persist in your delusions, the fear of dropping the blanket over your eyes must be horrible.

Well sweetie, things are getting abit desperate, and you are actually in the way.  So if you don’t want to get that blanket off your eyes and face the horrible truth, you are faced with getting out of the road, or maybe you should justy succumb to your life’s angst, and kill yourself.

That same government is gearing up to attack two more middle eastern countries, thus further stretching the military, not to mention making a few hundred Million slightly darker shaded people very pissed off.

This war on terror isn’t going very well for you is it my pets?

Do you think that bombing the shit out of a peaceful nation going about it’s lawful business according to the treaty it has signed and never broken, is going to endear you to the other middle eastern countries? 

Do you think attacking Syria, for which there can be no discernable reason except to do the bidding of Israel is going to advance the war on terror?

Do you really Minny? 

The only thing holding up the whole deck of cards for you is one thing 911.  To accept the obvious, something which more and much smarter people than you have completely accepted and that is that the offiical story of 911 is a crock of crap.  It is a huge coverup, and what should be scaring you chicken, is not that this is so, but that it must be obvious that they cannot keep the lid on something like this for long, at the present rate the final nail is due anytime, the 911 In Plane Sight screened here on prime time commercial TV a couple of weeks ago.  That is mainstream, and it’s an indication that the whole knowledge of the lie is becoming mainstream.  It is impossible to hold back the flood of truth on this scale. 

That should worry a thinking person a lot. 

Obviously they could never have expected to have to hold the illusion for long.

So why don’t they need to cover the truth for long?

“The problem here Nat is there has never been a spontaneous collapse of a skyscraper like this before or since.  To assert that firemen are trained to recognize such an imminent collapse is an unsupported, disingenuous….”

luminous, the collapse was hardly spontaneous.  By all accounts, and there are many, there were intense unattended fires burning in the building for many hours.  There was extensive damage deep into one of the building’s faces, which I believe was integral to the structure.

You say there had never been such a collapse before, but that begs the question:  Has there ever been an example of a similarly designed building having had tons of steel and other burning materials crashing down beside it from a thousand feet up, damaging it extensively?  The example must also include subsequent intense unfought fires burning for seven hours, fed by a 42,000 gallon diesel supply.  The example must also be a building that employed “transfer trusses”, which enabled the building to be built above multistory electrical transformers, which can apparently sound somewhat bomb-like when exploding:

holy…..

“It is more likely that having just seen two buildings collapse in a completely unforeseen fashion they were thinking in an ad hoc fashion that maybe any burning building might collapse.”

Perhaps all those professional firefighters were all just overreacting.  More likely though, they understood that burning buildings do collapse, especially when left to burn unchecked after having suffered severe structural damage. There was a big bulge in 7.  There was creaking coming from the structure. There was a huge diesel tank inside.  There were diesel lines running from it to other floors.  There were intense fires.  With these realities, not opinions, what sane person wouldn’t suspect the building might collapse?  I acknowledge that the previous collapses influenced their suspicions, but I hardly think they were rendered hypnotized zombies by it.  (BTW, I’m a little confused on how those bombers kept those explosives that were pre-planted from going off during the previous 7 or so hours of intense fires.  Perhaps you can clear that up for me.)

“You are going to have to do better than that.  If you carefully read the testimony, the firemen are repeating things (conjectures) they heard about building 7 at best third-hand in a chaotic situation with poor communications; little more than gossip, certainly nothing even resembling expert testimony.  Banaciski’s testimony of the collapse of the north tower, however, is the account of a first hand eye witness.”

How can you embrace Banaciski’s testimony about explosions, calling it first hand, and at the same time impugn his also first hand testimony about the damage to 7?:

“We were up on the upper floors of the Verizon
building looking at it. You could just see the whole bottom
corner of the building was gone…...”

Reads like first hand to me.  What am I missing?  Conjectures?  Gossip?  Come on now.  I think you’re talking about Rense.com, not the NYFD.  You’re going to have to do better than that.
”...... Show me you can distinguish between a fact and an opinion.”

Still waiting for a fact from you or anyone that provides any real substantive proof that the towers were deliberately imploded.  Still waiting for one structural engineer to validate your claims.  Still waiting for this wacky theory to move off the Internet rumor section, and into legitimate, fact checking journalism.  It’s been what, four plus years?

If you choose to join this weird movement, which irresponsibly seeks to simultaneously accuse unnamed Americans of murder and exonerate al Qaeda, you are unfortunately required to provide something more in the way of proof than “some people heard some booms”, and “look at that video and see that puff of smoke!”  That’s my opinion.

Minerva are you trying to set your sister up for a date or a gang bang?

So here’s your chance, fellas, to get next to a woman who has the inside scoop ........., my sister .......
Form a line behind Stinky Pete, ok?

Little Minny Chicken, you are a freak show baby.

Oh woopee, the greatest Liar and professional Shill on the block.

Back to deny Gravity, History, Witnesses, Video and Recorded evidence some more Natty, and pretend that you just hatched out of the egg all shiny and new again?

Like a Virgin, touched for the very first time?

Touched in the head.  You would be a nut job except you are a shill, which is disgusting.

Did you see this dirty mangy Shill bat.

Depleted Uranium, Natalie’s Baby is getting bad press.  Oh no, Natty they are telling LIES, someone needs to be dirtied, and you are just the little pie thrower needed to put crap on someone.

He added, “Out of the 580,400 soldiers who served in GW1 (the first Gulf War), of them, 11,000 are now dead! By the year 2000, there were 325,000 on Permanent Medical Disability. This astounding number of ‘Disabled Vets’ means that a decade later, 56% of those soldiers who served have some form of permanent medical problems!” The disability rate for the wars of the last century was 5 percent; it was higher, 10 percent, in Viet Nam.

It is off topic, but it should really get up Natty’s nose, for she loves DU more than she loves the lies about 911.

Natty you’ve had upwards of a dozen engineers and professors and many more highly credible witnesses and opinions given.

It has been proven with science, shown with visual evidence and attested to by numerous witnesses, that the WTC’s were not only brought down with the aid of explosives, but that the planes which hit the two WTCs and the Pentagon were not even the planes they were supposed to be.  You have ignored a LOT, but it is still there and everyone can see it.  Reading down the thread you just come across as a lunatic in staggering denial.

The fact that the mere acceptance of the quite obvious and increasingly mainstream idea that the JUNTA lied about everything or anything, is sufficient for you to disqualify their opinion as being biased. 

That would be hilarious if it was a satirical comedy skit.

It isn’t funny though.  It is actually something you are trying to palm off as an OPINION. 

Well you don’t really have any opinions Natalie, let’s be honest here.  Or since you cannot, Rabbit shall be honest on your behalf.  You have the opinions you are paid to have.  You are a professional Shill.  You are a waste of money, that’s the truth, but considering the performance of this administration you are about par for the course.  Opinions and repeated ditto to re-inforce the ever weakening program.  You are wasting your time around here, Shill, nobody does anything except use you to show the poverty of the official case.  you are a great example of the crashed and burnt Shill.  When will your masters wake up that you are a goner?  Don’t you scumbags get monitored to make sure you are worth the judas silver they pay you?  What kind of truth needs paid propaganda pieces to shill for it?

The PROOF is in the bag.,  The smoking guns of 911 are abounding and some of them are smoking Cannon.  You are still dancing about on puny details when you never yet faced anything of substance. 

You are peripheral to the whole thing you were always, no amount of denial by turkeys like you and Minny is going to sway anyone who isn’t at least as screwed in the head as Minny.  The girl’s a nincompoop.  A neurotic nancy, a fruit cake, you can see it can’t you Nat?  There’s your supporters.  Feel good about progress do you?

Any rational adult can detect Minny is near the edge.  She is nearly hysterical and seems brittle, on the balance of breakdown.  She is as much as articulating that she is deluding herself because she is afraid of the consequences of accepting reality.  Can’t we all just smile and hug each other, and pretend everything is sweet? 

She is eaten up by paranoia and irrational blather, pointless boasting and she is practically begging people to stop talking about it.

That’s your choir Natalie.  That’s your troops.  Bold in the face of adversity are they not?

Natty is doing all that buring building, big scary fires stuff again. 
You are pretending you have not already been around that silly bush a few times already and with nothing to show for it but more Proof the Official story is a LIE.

Oh that’s right, that was on another thread.

I’d guess nobody is going to bother Nat.  We have been there for anyone who cares, You can’t learn anything, sinece you’re a shill. You are of no further use, except as a punching bag.

Who wants first hit of the Vampire Shill of Depleted Uranium Hill?

Come and wack the Bat, it is starting to annoy the rabbit.

Nat,

You fail the fact test.  The central fact in question (this is the question I am asking you!) is the total symmetrical collapse of three skyscrapers in the same day and same location.  Something that has never, never, ever, ever happened before or since as a natural (spontaneous) unfolding of uncontrolled catastrophe, but has happened many, many times as a controlled, engineered, conscious action.  Which is the more rational explanation?

You can pretend to fail to comprehend this all you want, but what I want is a thorough, extensive, and complete scientific explanation.  If you can provide such an explanation I would love to hear it.  Otherwise you are just playing a game of he said/she said about inconsequential matters.  This is mere pointless discursiveness in this kind of open forum. 

Again the central question is to explain the symmetry and totality of the buildings’ collapse.  Tu sabe?

Hello, Lumens—-didn’t mean to leave you out of the not buying it roster. You are so patient. So focused
Yo se (?) Have you seen the Tom Tomorrow cartoon Rabbit linked to for WTH?

Rabbitacio if I had your knack for whacking on a regular basis….damn, damn, damn!!! The time I spent in charm school—-wait. That was someone else. Nevermind.

You crack me up, Wabbitari. I have vicarious joy mit you.

I am taking a week off to pretend that I’m not obligated to work and to have flu-like symtoms. During this time, I intend to study this thread well and to allow no further distractions (or very few, anyway) from taking apart the official story where 9/11 is concerned. Something along the line of that Tom Tomorrow cartoon for the circular arguments refuting 9/11, hey? You and Lumens are good with that kind of specificity and structure. I like to rummage through the web and read compulsively.

This is amazing that refutation of the official story is going to be in the mainstream media. I’m almost afraid to look, and I don’t scare easily.

Am bucking up to read your Syria link.

Minerva, if you want to preserve your innocence,  you might want to steer clear of this issue. It’s not pretty.

Good luck to your sister. Perhaps she can take air disasters for $500.  Combing through the history of air traffic control control and the establishment of the FAA, I have been given the impression that they do have a tradition of learning the hard way.

Stinky did you finish your homework? I hope you’re not going to make a habit of expressing yourself mathematically.

Perhaps she can take air disasters for $500

The Mayflower! (obscure joke)

I hope you’re not going to make a habit of expressing yourself mathematically

Laugh it up, Witch….if it wasn’t for people like me, you’d be using a typewriter to express your wit and you know it. You’re still my favorite witch, though.

Not to belittle the victims or make light of the perpetrators of 9/11, but to poke fun at those who would rather not look. 

Lt. Pervis: Commander Murdoch?

Commander Murdoch: What’s the problem, Lieutenant?

Lt. Pervis: The Mayflower, sir—-she’s coming in hotter than a firecracker, sir.  Their computer is down, they’ve lost their crew, and they’re flying on manual control, sir.

Commander Murdoch: We better get to the tower, Lieutenant.

Lt. Pervis: We have no tower, sir.

Commander Murdoch: We have no tower?

Lt. Pervis: Just a bridge, sir.

Commander Murdoch:  Why the hell aren’t I notified about these things?

Commander Murdoch:  How would you handle this?

Lt. Pervis: We could try ignoring it, sir.

Commander Murdoch: I see. Pretend nothing has happened and hope everything turns out alright in the morning.

Lt. Pervis: Just a thought, sir.

Commander Murdoch: I’ll consider that. 

Commander Murdoch: There’s got to be a better angle.

Gee, Stinky Pete, I forgot to swoon with gratitude. Remind me to do that later.

What thinks you about the official story of 9/11?

[url=“http://www.terrorize.dk/911/wtc1dem5/911.wtc.1.demolition.east.1. .wmv"href =“http://internal.indymedia.org/local/webcast/uploads/metafiles/outofthesk kywtc.explosionsfiedtx.mov”>From the Sky</a>

<a ]East Tower Goes Down[/url]

<a href =“http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~2aday/temp/demolition.mpg”>Cont trolled Demolition</a>

Look kinda’ similiar?

If terrorists did that, they were smart enough to set up the charges beforehand which means that they had full access to the buildings. And if they did have access, then who gave it to them and why? The only thing I can think of is to scare Americans enough to follow blindly into a campaign of hate.

Did you see the new Osama tape? Maybe Osama really was in on the whole crashing the planes scam, but those planes don’t do the kind of damage that would bring a modern skyscraper down that fast….unless maybe it was built by Brown and Root (Haliburton Subsidiary). if indeed Osama and his followers planned that attack, somebody made dang sure he had the cards stacked in his favor. And wasn’t it Dubya Dink who made a big joke out of him hitting the “trifecta?”

It seems kind of fishy that we are talking about bringing charges against GW Dink and all of the sudden he gets to be this big hero again because Osama has sent us a tape telling us how unsafe we are…too bad we can’t actually see the whole tape because the rest (probably the part where he tells everybody what hand he had in any attacks) is deemed not “newsworthy.”

Dang links didn’t work!

Here are cut and paste versions of the missing ones:

Some guy waving his shirt before the tower falls:

http://internal.indymedia.org/local/webcast/uploads/metafiles/outoftheskywtc. .explosionsfiedtx.mov

A controlled demolition:

http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~2aday/temp/demolition.mpg

Grrrr!!! Okay, now I’m getting mad! I guess that one with the guy will not work unless you go through the homepage and scroll to find the video here:

http://internal.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=1389&group=webcast

I really hate it when I can’t get something to work right! At any rate, the point I’m making is that the towers coming down look identical to a controlled demolition. Anybody who has seen the towers collapse and has seen a building demolished and can still say that a plane did that kind of damage and dropped a building that fast…really has their head up their butt.

It’s not particularly hard to cut and paste a web address Mr. Stinky. 

<a href=” http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~2aday/temp/demolition.mpg”>demolition&g gt;/a>

Oh. Now I’m mad.

demolition

Stinky Pete,

The cut and paste works if you delete the space and extra ‘t’ where the line is broken.  It’s them pesky boolean operators. yes? no? oops!

Stunning piece of footage, by the way.  A compelling and compressed bit of visual narrative.

Bang! Bang! Bang!

http://homepages.nildram.co.uk/~2aday/temp/demolition.mpg

Yep. Cut and paste works. Wonder what makes this link so hard to shrink.

This oughtta do it.

tinyurl is useful here, sometimes.

Wow. Imagine standing on top of that building when it collapses. It’s a free fall. My stomach rides up to my tonsils just watching this thing. There are no jerks when one floor hits the floor beneath it. There’s no bam, bam, bam, bam with each bam growing heavier and clunkier than the one before it. There are no hunks sliding off the sides*. There is only one fluid jhoop and then that now all too familiar cloud of boiling dust.

*In the case of the WTC, there is no keeling over in one direction or the other that might reflect something other than a completely symmetrical and balanced load of furnishings and people. There is simply no explanation for the lack of large chunks of debris and the symetric and neat fall of the towers, aside from controlled demolition or a new kind of bomb. I’d wager on demolition.

Tiny URL, huh?

Thanks, I hate broken code. Let’s give it a whack!

Not Suprised?!

It works well. Thanks, luminous beauty!

On the North and South towers I think they used something very hot in the basement, probably thermite.  This has probably been at various points through the core of the building, and was detonated just prior to the planes striking.  There are numerous witness to such an explosion including one person who was injured in it, while in the basement levels.  This was before the planes hit the building.  In this way the central columns which were essential to the vertical load bearing, were eliminated or severely weakened at the outset.

The fires at the crash sites, began with large, apparently assisted fireballs which obviously and measurably consumed all the fuel available in those planes.  This highest temperature would have momentarily been high enough to soften steel, if it was sustained for MANY hours, but it wasn’t.  Within seconds, most all of the fuel was gone, fireballs like that are not normally achieved without an explosive included, despite what you see on the movies.  Or better still, exactly what you see on the movies.  The explosions of cars and planes which goes on in the movies is pyrotechnic effects,  To get a good fireball like that, you can’t just hurl a tank of fuel hard and ignite it as it shatters. 

What we would do is use a good old fashioned Gunpowder (Blackpowder), mine for example to vaporise and ignite the clowd of fuel almost simultaneously, under what amounts to pressure.  Then you get a big flashy fireball like those planes.  Real crashes are just not quite so symetrical and efficient.  As a pyrotechnician I recognise some enhancement of what happened on impact.

Whilst starting hot as the fuel burnt and ignited secondary fuel like furniture, curtains carpets and clothing and people, people burn well after a bit of a start, the fire quickly became fuel rich and oxygen starved.  This made for a much cooler fire, and it was evidenced by the thick black smoke.  By this time the temperature at no point of the fire would have been more than a barbecue.

The buildings fell very suddenly, after the fires had onviously been cooling for some time.  Any stressed structure due to heat, would have been regaining it’s strength, or have done so.  The collapse was initiated by more charges, which though in reverse of the normal sequence, running down the building, they preceded the fall exactly as one would expect.  There is obviously no more or less resistance to the fall of the building at the start or finish of their collapse, it is as if the entire lower part of the building beneath the plane strikes had turned into jelly, or yet water.

WTC-7 clearly shows the central column giving way as it is obviously cut, with charges and the whole collapse proceeds precisely as a normal controlled demolition.

Nobody will ever succeed in proving anything different.  No matter how many fools try to paint the day as night, it is right in front of your eyes to see.

It walked and quacked and looked like a duck.  It was a bloody duck.  Natty and Minny would like to believe it was a unicorn, but it was a duck!

Agreed Rabbit.
I looked into the supporting “”“evidence”“” in the article which started this thread.
The PRA site no longer links to their chip berlet review of griffin’s book, and his reply. Funny, that.
Then found www.oilempire.us/index.html which details fordfoundation support to PRA/berlet , Amy Goodman, and company.
There is obviously and understandably a disinclination of these bods to lose their jobs if they dare to investigate 911 seriously. They are allowed to be “radical” on the plight of the Sudanese, etc, but 911 Is No Go.

Thanks Frog.  There is no substitute for thoroughness.  I rather hoped they were inviting the real message to be heard, by being so feeble and cretinous in their attempt to sling off at Jones and Griffin. Nay I fear the threads have no bearing on anything, existing as they do in a bubble. 

Too bad. So the public face of ITT is such garbage as Muwakkil’s piece, without the straightening out we give it, I take it.

......................^^..............................

Rabbit remains, watching for the frog…................................... Rabbit is always interested in frogs.

Is rabbit to be found at 1963 The Rabbit Hole ? i wonder if you have nongatemindered OZ sites to recommend ?
i used to be a netizen at guardian talk, at the time of the clintonblair war on yugoslavia,but its gone down a puerility drain last time I looked.

Frog hadda nice googleprowl stalking the PRA. At first glance they looked just like us, research into ex-nazi emigration to the US etc, probably solid research by Russ Bellant, but there they stopped. it seems. Could have gone on to Prescott Bush and his lovely friends…

Webster Tarpley looks a star .( 9/11 synthetic Terror has good reviews.) I read his book “George Bush the unauthorised biography ” on the net, and it crosschecks with a large large XXXXl number of other researchers/witnesses.  He was a real Star Criminal with irancontra and megacokesmuggling only a few of his activities.

Did you suss 911 straight away ? It took me months to re-educate meself enough away from the iniitial horrified reaction ““They Couldn’t Do THAT”, but the evidence just went on mounting up .
By coincidence 10minutes after hearing the news on 911 i had to teach an adult class. One of them spent 6months in hospital after torture by Kissinger’s friends in Chile 1975. He was lucky, the RedCross found him before he could be “terminated”.

dave Lindorff on DU is valuable, see counterpunch article.

i liked the Power Structure Research bit, in the article. Yeah, one sure needs to be seriously Structuralistically sociological confronted by the Russian/Israeli/Turkish/Albanian Mafia and their yankee and japanese colleagues !

Griffin implied that Berlet obviously hadn’t done his homework; which is really funny when those are the very words of our mr mowakkil, who hasn’t done his either ?

is rabbit in WA? forget timedifference to frogland, so sending now

Yes, at first reaction to the WTC’s collapse on TV, which is the first thing I saw when opening my eyes on the day, I felt I was looking at special effects. It took quite a while of watching about a half hour to realise it wasn’t a movie.

The initial shock meant I didn’t think about that again until a few months later, and then bit by bit I heard things which made me look ate all again, and then I accepted the truth very quickly. 

Rabbit has long since known what sort of scum run not only the USA but also Oz.  This is why Rabbit saw Port Arthur was all wrong and WACO too, even without help.  Some things even a rabbit can figure out.

Once you have accepted this once though it makes it easier to see through them from then on.  Best to break those illusions early and get on with avoiding personal extinction, eh Frog?

Rabbit is in WA, what is this 1963 The Rabbit Hole ?

1963 is this rabbit’s year of birth, but what is it?  Rabbit shall look at it and come right back.

Rabbit, it looked too much like the recent TV demolitions of frog tower blocks of “social housing” to me too, but it took months to come back to, as well, and then it all accelerated.

1963 .... Frog is not a mole, just likes the occasional google,and will also get another hotmail address to avoid hatemail when he croaks truth to innocent sheep ! He assumes GCHQ already have him on file.

Frog just heard a trailer for the friday night funny on BBC radio 4. it was done by ossamabinladen, that well known Brit comic, so now pops out in his frogmobile to get a Sixpack, and hopes to have a good larf when he gets back.

have they canonised kerrypacker yet ? My OZ friends tell me the place going fastly nazi, just like everywhere except venezuela and friends. Seeya mate

Hey, frog.

I can’t say exactly why I was expecting something big that would change everything but I was, and I said as much to a friend on many occassions. I’m not offering this as proof or evidence, of course, am just saying what my thoughts were when I first saw television coverage of the attacks.

So when I saw the video of 9/11 I thought this was “it” and that there is no way those plans made those buildings fall like that. No way.  I was also struck by how neatly pre-packaged it all was. “Ground Zero”? Hero firefighters. It was too much like a movie. “Let’s Roll”? It was a b grade movie.

And, now that you’ve mentioned it, frog, bin Laden appearing on what looks like the stage in an elementary school auditoreum looking like an arab Barney Rubble? And now he’s doing audio only. Did he blow his whole inheritence on 9/11? Or did he stuff it all into a thong?

Griffin has written an article about the omissions and distortions in the 9/11 commision’s report.

Here is how the list begins:

Given this clarification, I now list the omissions and claims of The 9/11 Commission Report that I, in my critique of that report, portrayed as lies:

1. The omission of evidence that at least six of the alleged hijackers—-including Waleed al-Shehri, said by the Commission probably to have stabbed a flight attendant on Flight 11 before it crashed into the North Tower of the WTC—-are still alive (19-20).

Can anyone explain why this illustrious and expensive commission failed to address this issue?

WILEY, you were awake before me. Bin laden, hereafter OBL, was once a very good friend of the CIA, like Saddam who was recruited in 1959. Takes me back to me youth. NOW, maybe he’s still an associate, or maybe he’s dead from kidney failure. Anyhows, modern technology is with us,and he can still “speak”.

The six dead/alive hijackers are equally freaking. I really didn’t think the cia/fbi were so smart to present them to us so fast. And then there was the magically intact passport for Mohammed Atta, and then the “How To fly a PLANE , (duh!) videos and manuals in the hirecar. And then 300 more incongruities.

Maybe they are doing it on purpose. Testing the public to see how far they can go, being amazed, and then pushing some more ? And then some more . And again. And again. And Again.

WOW ! We can do whatever we want.

That does appear to be the case, frog. Though the terrorist stock market balloon turned to lead pretty quickly. TIPS didn’t go over so well…..

Hmmm. No one picked up the colony on mars ball and ran with it, but I think that was just another made-you-look misdirection. Other than that, they’ve pretty much sold it all.

I actually was looking for a link to a story about OBL being buried in an unmarked grave in Pakistan. His obituary—- according to one source—-was published in a Pakistani newspaper. Who knows? I got distracted and found a few 9/11 tidbits that I’ll go back to soon.

But I’m wondering why OBL leaves the translation up to the CIA—-an agency he should know all too well. I sometimes wonder if OBL speaks or spoke the Queen’s English. If not, I can’t imagine him having a hard time finding a faithful accomplice to translate for him. I don’t understand why he wasn’t “in our face” in the video. This guy is blue blood, and whatever you think about him, you have to admit that he is/was confident, right? He’s the big cheese of terrorism,  for crying out loud! And now, he has released a voice recording. Was he having a bad hair day?

Now, we’re supposed to trust the CIA? I never understood the concept of trusting a governmental body whose whole existence and survival depends on secrecy. I don’t know which makes less sense—-trusting the CIA with sensitive information or trusting Wall Street with retirement funds.

I was just starting to read an article by Robert Fisk that starts with Why only audio? A friend and I started talking and he brought up the Taliban banning television, and we were skating around with this issue, and I said, if they have cells all around the world then somebody can go into a Best Buy, or whatever, and by a freakin’ video camera. Hell, they could knock out tourists and take their cameras, then it occurs to me that:

IF THESE “TERRORISTS” CAN’T GET A VIDEO-CAMERA, THEN WHAT KIND OF THREAT ARE THEY? REALLY?! 

YOU COULD SEND A 12 YEAR OLD OUT WITH NOTHING BUT CHEWING GUM IN THEIR POCKETS, AND IF YOU TOLD HIM/HER NOT TO COME HOME TIL THEY GOT A VIDEO CAMERA, THEY’D PROBABLY COME HOME, TONIGHT, WITH A VIDEO CAMERA.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

These assholes aren’t even trying, anymore.

correction: bin Laden’s will was published in an Egyptian newspaper.

Wiley,
i skimmed the fisk at truthout. He thinks OlB recorded it, then I would guess, SOP would be to go a few 100kms to send it down a telephone line. Security.That’s if he’s alive, and it was him ! Fisk reckons he’s done his job, created al qida, and that’s that.

My take on this is that it is not an org like GM or IBM, just a loose association of dozens of grouplets, franchisees as it were, who use the name to strike fear, which plays the game of the War on Terror groupies on “our” side. Each little group has a mixture of war aims, mostly local . It appears that the vast majority of them are penetrated/ surveilled by security services. For finance, most are involved in crime, as the several terrorist groups in northern ireland were.

I recommend daniel ganser on operation gladio, where rightwing terrorists planted a series of bombs in italy.With the connivance of the security services. Why ? It suited elements of the government, and NATO,  to blacken the Left, scare the People; but now we all know about it, the parliament investigated, it is common knowledge.

So lots of little “pearl harbors” are very convenient, laws can be passed to restrict the freedoms of the citizenry, and power and macro$$$ get concentrated in fewer and fewer hands. And the awful berlusconi still got to be Boss, but I reckon they’ll get rid of him…..

if you want to know more about the US context, check out www.waynemadsenreport.com and then go to john stanton’s bigboardwatch. There we see megacriminals at work, which is why the sibel edmonds case is so important, even bigger than abramoff, which is itself much bigger than is to be seen in the MainstreamMedia. (apologies if yu know all that, but other readers might learn something, )

If you are still sane , join the club ! I’m not even a “conspiricist”, one of me favourites is barbara tuchman’s “the march of folly”—fucup analysis of History.  Must now go and bottle a fewscore liters of 5% strength country cider—its a hard life here in frogland.

Yeah, Fisk is a war correspondent. He doesn’t go too far out on a limb, but he is very knowledgeable about the mideast. I like him.

Security doesn’t really do it for me as an argument for audio instead of video and audio.  Anyone who has ever watched a movie knows that you can make a set on a budget that will not give away your location. For that matter you could make a set suggesting that you’re somewhere else.

Unless, those sneaky bastards want people to suspect or believe that the tape is a forgery. That would be evil genious-ey.

What is GM? IBM? Por favor.

Have you ever seen the movie Brazil?

Will check out sites you mentioned.

new technology from the FBI

The Bin Laden Tape is bullshit, another Neo-Con Con Job.

The dead guy, gives a really short message, about half as long as usual, never bothers with the Koran but gives a plug to a book by an Author he would be more likely to want subjected to a fatwa? 

Uh Hum.
Rabbit heard he does a commercial for Coke-cola too but they cut that bit fearing Americans mightn’t buy it..

I finally read the full text.

At first sight it is “reasonable”, recounting well documented US atrocities already in the public domain. (“Limited hangout ” is the phrase for that, I think ?)

The crucial very small item is the claim that “WE” , Al Qaeda, did 911. Which brings us back to this thread.

Thanks for the films of the “fat-nosed, right-handed” , etc, OBL,  which prove more and more strongly that whether alive or dead, He is not putting out this stuff.

So , aplogies for having gone round in circles, this is just more misdirection to get the public eye OFF 911 .

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/national/dotmil/arkin020199.htm

On Voice-morphing…..

Isn’t that a kick in the ass, frog? Artifice and reality running neck and neck.  Is it my imagination or are humans ever involved in the wrong contests?

I see the debunked messages from bin Laden as another cog in the 9/11 cover up. Since there was no forensic investigation and trial, there is no closure. The administration is two steps from riding on a rail, and the less romantic the view of our president and his cabinet, the more likely people are going to start wondering if there is something to all those “conspiracy theories”.

More of the many coincidences and breaks with the past is that there weren’t a dozen groups claiming responsibility for 9/11.

Isn’t it the whole terrorist kit and kaboodle to wage an attack, claim responsibility for it, and then make a political demand? Why didn’t bin Laden intrude on any of the three anniversaries of 9/11? Why now?

9Garbled garbled garbled wonder WHY 989Politically convenient. The fact that there were NO

What happened to the Frog?  Are you under water Froggy?

The lack of claims for responsibility has always struck me as one of the more glaring discrepancies of attacks like the Alfred P Murrah building, 911 and the London Bombings.  Oh and Madrid.

In none of these cases have the perpetrators come forward and said “We did and this is why”

Oh, and how about the terrorist training for a bomb in the subway being run at exactly the same time as the actual bomb was in place? London leaks like a sieve too?

Should we all have “suckers” branded on our foreheads?

These terrorists are psychic! Mein Gott! These men should be oracles.

If you must drown, frog, then I hope you drow in the hard cider. It’s much better than drowning in tears or tap water.

frog is a slow learner and rather stupid.

Well, Rabbit and Wiley,and Frog,  they are playing a game with the World. The Newsmedia hanging on to OLB , searching around, all very suspenseful, while other stuff more important is sidelined.

The REAL STORY ,  is that the US Senate, AND the House of Reps’  are either BOUGHT or BLACKMAILED. 90%.

Alors, mon cher Wiley, is that so , or should I drown myself some more in my hard cider ?

After that, mes amis, MAYBE the 7/7 job in London was set up. I don’t know. The “exercise” had no bearing on it, that"s paranoaia, and disinformation. IT COULD not change anything. (cheney’s exercise on 911 DID , of course….) (Personally, i wd never be surprised by proof of a set-Up.)

Cher Rabbit, i first noticed your Port Arthur story with Joe Vialls, a very mysterious source,( i suspect ‘him’  of being more a consortium than a HIM, probably a well-paid CIA?/MOSSAD?/ETC?  gateminder group. )

Looks like your suspicions were justified, another 911-type story. In scotland we had Dunblane,20kids massacred , files SECRET for 100years? WHY ?

The exercise underway in London may actually have had a fair bit to do with what happened.

Actually the London job is relatively tight.  Unlike 911 where it has simply been a matter of joining the dots there is far more mere speculation this time.  Rabbit is of the opinion that it was in fact an exercise at various levels.  A small number of implanted people made it go live.

Rabbit believes the “alleged” bombers were involved in an exercise, which unbeknownst to them was made to go live.  The thing which stuck in my craw from the start was the fourth guy, in the bus.  The whole description of him whether from the highly suspicious witness who got off the bus just before it blew, or from definate innocent witnesses, the picture was of a frightened man, desperately searching for something in his backpack.

Since he came later than the others and was unable to get on his train, but was instead shunted onto the bus, he had heard about the first explosions.  I believe he suddenly realised that the supposed dummy bomb he was carrying, given him by police or security people was possibly the real thing.  Hell, he would have had his doubts, he may have not been sure if the media reports and shut downs were all part of the exercise too, but he was I suspect desperately rummaging around in his pack to see if there was something wrong. The bloke, Richard someone I think, who supposedly was so annoyed that he asked the bus to stop so he could get off, (very suspicious story), was instead the Patsy’s handler.  Seeing the patsy was about to figure it out, Richard stopped the bus and pressed the destruct button for the patsy’s backpack as he walked away.

I also think the subsequent farce a few weeks later was ad-hoc and meant to fill in some gaps which were opening up early in the official story. 

Does Frog know the bomb in at least one of the trains appears to have been under the train?  Actually the one in the bus may have been under the seat too, which is why the Patsy was unable to find anything in his backpack.  There was some suspicious goings on with the bus too previous to the day.

Frog

Joe Vialls lived a few suburbs away from me, he was living in Perth until he died recently.  I cannot confirm any more than this.  I too had my doubts about Joe, some attentive people do due to some odd goings on a long time ago.  Much suspicion about exactly who or what he was, due to the apparent lines on some info particularly.

Actually if a couple of people want, Rabbit will go and check out Joe’s address and see if he can meet Mrs Vialls, possibly can bring some finish to the Joe Vialls questions which are asked in some circles.  I did e-mail a condolences to her at the time, and communicated with Jon Rappoport who is one of such a consortium if such an one exists.

Dunblane, as well as Port Arthur and another event in New Zealand all happened within a very short time frame, and all resulted in exactly the same response of each of our three govewrnments. 

We know Port Arthur was a complete frame-up and Psyop, it isn’t hard to guess something fishy about the New Zealand and Scotland ones.

You’ve commented on how poorly the coverups are done, and it is true.

Consider that this is very much the Arrogance of Illuminati ways.  This abomination of psychopathic human waste group, thinks it is the height of COOL to show their hand so clearly to those of us who are not under the spell. 

The overall message is clearly,  along these lines.

“Look at us,  see our power,  there isn’t a thing you can do about it,  suck eggs you losers”

Rabbit however has a message from the other side.

Illuminati scumbags,  the show ain’t over till the fat lady sings.

Rabbit hears many things, but no fat lady singing yet.

Oh yes, Rabbit. The sociopaths love to tell you what they’re going to do to you in such a way that they can deny it and say that you were warned, as well. A conscience hardly knows what to do with that. What is most amazing is the people who will clamor to defend the sociopath and blame the victim.

What is scary to me in all this is the conclusions the authorities come up with. Did you know that the only way to stop a suicide bomber is to shoot him/her in the head? Shoot first, ask questions later. All a cop has to do is shoot someone in the head, and then say “I thought he/she was a terrorist. He was acting suspicious, and I was appropriately full of suspicion because they’re everywhere! Just think of what would have happened if he had had a bomb.” From whence blows this only way to kill a suicide bomber hooey?

Good grief, anyone with bushy eyebrows is a potential terrorist. Police in Britain have an excuse to unload their magazines at the head of an unarmed person on his back on the floor, because shooting him in the head is the only way to prevent a bomb from going off. If there is no bomb, too bad for the dead guy. The police meant well.

If there is a bomb and it set with a timer? Hmmm. What’s the only way to deal with that, then? I suppose it wouldn’t be a good idea to have four or five coppers on the scene in that case, huh?

The powers that be don’t really give a fig who dies in their little games as long as it isn’t them.

Rabbit.

For the love of God or whatever…...

get help.

PS…for those of you too concrete minded to appreciate irony….

my sister is a very clever woman, intelligent and funny…just try to gang rape her, she’ll do some damage on you with that black belt in kick boxing.

She is the unfortunate source of my blitherings on this thread….you’re right Rabbit…I should just take my own life for even mentioning her name in the presence of one such as you.

Which brings me to the question of how you think I should best effect my suicide ,since you have the best interests of something (your own ego, maybe), and wish to rid this site of all views which don’t mesh with all your numerous, paranoid, and idiosyncratic posts.

I really don’t want to give you any part of myself, since you seem noxious, but I am willing to dedicate my last crap to you….

can you provide an address so my survivors will know where to send this legacy?

Dear little Minerva.

You are completely peripheral to Rabbit’s existence.  You are less than a fly to me. You are good for a giggle, looneys usually are. Rabbit is an Aries which is sort of immune to issues of Ego in the way you percieve it.  secondly he is sufficiently sure of himself not to feel threatened by an empty headed little ninny who boasts like a preteen about close family but so far leaves us to wonder if she is thus the mongrel of the family of Nobel Prize candidates.

My suggestion that you kill youself was following a relevant post which you otherwise ignore.  Have you no answer to the rest?

Well sweetie, things are getting a bit desperate, and you are actually in the way.  So if you don’t want to get that blanket off your eyes and face the horrible truth, you are faced with getting out of the road, or maybe you should justy succumb to your life’s angst, and kill yourself.

Rabbit doesn’t however wish your views to be silenced.  If somebody like you didn’t say these things would anybody else believe somebody had said these things?  I doubt it.  Thus if we are to have the opportunity of ridiculing the preposterous delusions and imaginings which such as you are prone to, then obviously wqe need a subject to utter the preposterous nonsense. 

Besides which you are a quality Moron, a real dittohead and proud of it.  We are short on such as you around ITT.  We seem to have an abundance of Trolls and often a shill or two. Yet the average but nonetheless spectacular home grown American Moron is always in short supply on ITT.

Now are you then admitting that your life’s angst is too much to live with? In which case Rabbit will gladly assist you in the enterprise.

You are in America, and certainly bearing in mind you are a rabid Conservative, Repuglican and all that, I would have thought the choice was obvious.  How could you seriously have thought Rabbit would deny you your birthright.  The only question is what sort and what calibre you used. 

Bearing in mind the thickness of your head, it might be an idea to go for something with a bit of penetrating power.

I hear Depleted Uranium is ideal for the purpose.

As for your dedication, Thanks dear, but since we’ve already enjoyed all the rest of your crap you should think of your family with this last bit.

Minerva, Minerva, Minerva, what were you thinking?  It is futile for you to fight with Rabbit. Don’t you see?

Don’t you see? You sound frazzled.  Do rest.  Dial 911 if you are feeling desperate, otherwise, I find it irresponsible for you to talk about committing suicide. This is the kind of thing you should tell your family. Suicide isn’t funny. I’ll ask Rabbit not to joke about it, but I understand that I’m taking my chances by doing so, and that Rabbit is Rabbitty.

You seem lacking in net-i-sense. You might want to dedicate yourself, your family, and your next crap to a chat board that doesn’t rub your fur the wrong way. I think you might need some merry, light weight company to refresh yourself. Gardening, pets, crochet—-find a perky forum to perk yourself up—-cooking, hiking, painting.

Clearly, the topic of 9/11 and questioning the official story triggers something in you that leads to masochistic poasting tendencies, and you are shooting yourself in the foot socially.  This thread is not good for your health.

No one said anything about rape, btw.

Go have some fun, and forget about us.

Was she only joking?  Silly Rabbit.

Agreed though Wiley.

Not everyone can see how soft and furry you really are, Rabbitowsky. Some people might get the impression that you’re ruthless, and forthright, and not altogether polite. It’s crazy, I know. People think I’m direct, all the time, I don’t know where they get that. Mensch. 

Gonna crawl into my nest and go to sleep now.

Thanks for reminders on 7/7. Will look again at london ‘exercises’. It was my 5%gullibility and mental sloth kicking in, so blathered.

So why did the FAA manager destroy the tape of the 6ATC’s , apparently because he promised a union organiser he’d do so ? Anyone know more ? Weird that a useful doc done shortly after was destroyed, and no action taken against that manager. I thought the Actor had done away with that Union Trash.

Rabbit will do as he chooses, but froggie is not asking him to go see mrs V around the corner. Rabbit knows why.

” We’ll never know the whole truth” someone has said here. Well,  it does have a tendency to ‘come out’. BBC radio4 ‘Document’ series had a good example on monday night, about Cyprus 1964. Similar to Northwoods and Gladio, yet another bloody reminder of the total lack of scruple of toughminded ‘strategic thinkers’, and the conclusion that so much of their activity finally turns out to have been counter-productive.

http://www.cyprus-conflict.net/packard.htm

Warmed up 6° here, only -3 outside !

It amazes me what does come out sometimes, frog, and what is missing. Considering the contents of your usual news porn, it is odd that we haven’t heard accounts of what happened on 9/11 from air traffic controllers, we haven’t seen interviews with the families of passengers on all four flights, we haven’t seen surveillance video ad nauseum, we haven’t heard from people who worked in the WTC towers but weren’t there that day, we haven’t heard from jet fighter pilots in proximity to D.C. and NYC,  we haven’t heard much from our hero firefighters, we haven’t even heard much from people who were going about their business on the street below that day. We haven’t seen and heard these things over, and over, and over, 24/7. The whole thing appeared to me to be a prepackaged deal.

***** pressed “PREVIEW” and all went

So I start again but more concisely.%%%%! and BU^^er!

On file somewhere is a story of guys finding blackboxes. Told to keep quiet by FBI,  ?, relpied “give me one good reason”. Sounds true.

NOW. In a normal healthy Open society, things would be as you describe.

In a very delicate police investigation, anywhere, cops may ask one to keep quiet for good reason. To be explained, even. Commonsense;

But a state where everyone is told to hush up about everything, can only be described one way. Police State.

We notice with Fitz and others, they haven’t silenced all the judges/ DA’s yet. But they are working on it. Abramoff deserves a few Lifes, wait and see !

If you can find it, a treasure is “THE WASHINGTON PAYOFF”
dell1972 by robert n Winter-Berger.
about buying judges, Presidents, reps, senators, serving Mafia contacts, all that routine stuff, wot.

Some unfunny quotes found at
http://www.spiritcaller.net/quotes/conspiracy.htm

“In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, you can bet it was planned that way.”
- F.D.R.

“...don’t ever, ever use the word conspiracy if you expect applause, for that is when the wrath of Liberaldom will be unleashed against you. We are not disallowed from believing in all types of conspiracy, just modern political conspiracy…. Conspiracy to seize the power of government is as old as government itself. We can study the conspiracies surrounding Alcibiades in Greece or Julius Caesar in ancient Rome, but we are not supposed to think that men today scheme to achieve political power.”

- Gary Allen, None Dare Call It Conspiracy, 1971

“The Congressional Committee investigating un-American activities has reported that the Fascist plot to seize the government…was proved; yet not a single participant will be prosecuted under the perfectly plain language of the federal conspiracy act making this a high crime. Imagine the action if such a plot were discovered among Communists!”

- Roger Baldwin, director of the American Civil Liberties Union (1935)

This was the “Nazi”  plot exposed by USMC gen smedley butler.

Nuff said, nothing new under the sun?

zonktime

Does this good cop/bad cop routine ever work for you two?
Seriously.

Stop me if you’ve heard this one….

1. Two antennas met on a roof, fell in love and got married. The ceremony wasn’t much, but the reception was excellent.

2. A jumper cable walks into a bar. The bartender says, “I’ll serve you, but don’t start anything.”

3. Two peanuts walk into a bar, and one was a salted.

4. A dyslexic man walks into a bra.

5. A man walks into a bar with a slab of asphalt under his arm and says: “A beer please, and one for the road.”

6. Two cannibals are eating a clown. One says to the other: “Does this taste funny to you?”

7. “Doc, I can’t stop singing ‘The Green, Green Grass of Home.’” “That sounds like Tom Jones Syndrome.” “Is it common?” Well, “It’s Not Unusual.”

8. Two cows are standing next to each other in a field.. Daisy says to Dolly, “I was artificially inseminated this morning.” “I don’t believe you,” says Dolly. “It’s true, no bull!” exclaims Daisy.

9. An invisible man marries an invisible woman. The kids were nothing to look at either.

10. Deja Moo: The feeling that you’ve heard this bull before.

11. I went to buy some camouflage trousers the other day but I couldn’t find any.

12. A man woke up in a hospital after a serious accident. He shouted, “Doctor, doctor, I can’t feel my legs!” The doctor replied, “I know you can’t - I’ve cut off your arms!”

13. I went to a seafood disco last week…and pulled a mussel.

14. What do you call a fish with no eyes? A fsh.

15. Two fish swim into a concrete wall. The one turns to the other and says “Dam!”

16. Two Eskimos sitting in a kayak were chilly, so they lit a fire in the craft. Unsurprisingly it sank, proving once again that you can’t have your kayak and heat it too.

17. A group of chess enthusiasts checked into a hotel and were standing in the lobby discussing their recent tournament victories. After about an hour, the manager came out of the office and asked them to disperse. “But why,” they asked, as they moved off. “Because”, he said, “I can’t stand chess-nuts boasting in an open foyer.”

18. A woman has twins and gives them up for adoption. One of them goes to a family in Egypt and is named “Ahmal.” The other goes to a family in Spain; they name him “Juan.” Years later, Juan sends a picture of himself to his birth mother. Upon receiving the picture, she tells her husband that
she wishes she also had a picture of Ahmal. Her husband responds, “They’re twins! If you’ve seen Juan, you’ve seen Ahmal.”

19. Mahatma Gandhi, as you know, walked barefoot most of the time, which produced an impressive set of calluses on his feet. He also ate very little, which made him rather frail and with his odd diet, he suffered from bad breath. This made him.  (Oh, man, this is so bad, it’s good. . .)  A super calloused fragile mystic hexed by halitosis.

20. And finally, there was the person who sent twenty different puns to his friends, with the hope that at least ten of the puns would make them laugh.  No pun in ten did.

Minerva,

Your last post was not respectful to jumper cables, the dyslexic or the invisible, and was definitely off topic.

But it was exceedingly funny!

Copied and pasted in a safe place.

Thanks.

minerva!

You’ve made a friend.  Punishment enough?

Minerva,

I liked the Mahatma Gandhi pun best. Did you know Mahatma means Great Soul ?

But I am not sure if I understand the previous post where you ask about a good cop/bad cop routine. What exactly are you talking about Minerva?

Punishment enough?

One would think so…

Although, like Canadian Dave, I don’t get the “good cop / bad cop routine” post.

Seriously,Minerva—-is there something you want to talk about? Look,  I know you had your reasons. There were extenuating circumstances. Anyone in your position would have done the same, I know that. You’re not a bad person. You’re a good person, in a bad situation. Anybody could see that. I know you want to get it off your chest. Your conscience is eating you alive—- you can’t eat, you can’t sleep. You wish you could turn back the hands of time, and do it all differently, but you can’t. The jury will understand that and they’ll go easy on you if you just come clean.

So tell me—-did you do it?

Are you a “good cop,” Witch?

I see Nat is keeping you warm and fozzy, Minerva.  Wakka, wakka, wakka, wakka.

luminous beauty said way back on Jan 7, 2006 at 11:54 PM:

Nat said:

Really?  No science at all?  Fooled me.  But you are the great scientific expert.  Explain to me the politics of the Laws of Conservation of Momentum, please.

Yes, Jones is fooling a lot of people. (Well, not a lot)  He didn’t fool his colleagues in the school of engineering and technology at BYU, however, or me.

I guess you’re asking how can a paper that contains the terms “Laws of Conservation of Momentum” and “2nd Law of Thermodynamics” possibly be political?  Just leave it to Stever.

Stever’s paper

By selectively quoting sources and taking them grossly out of context, and by referencing blatantly politically motivated individuals, Jones manages to self-categorize his paper as propaganda rather than a serious scientific work.  The cursory and general references to the afore mentioned laws of physics are insufficient to obscure this reality. The fact that his paper is destined to be published in a pro-Marxist economics journal, and not in any kind of legitimate scientific or engineering publication is an astounding admission of it’s scientific irrelevance, and is perhaps the most compelling piece of evidence for concluding that his paper is way more about politics and propaganda than it is about science.  Jones is almost begging us to not take him seriously.

“Research in Political Economy has played a very positive role in developing the
scientific Marxist agenda for the last 25 years” —Ajit Sinha, Science & Society

Marxist agenda?

continued….....

page 2

One particularly dishonest example of Jones’s talent for quote manipulation is the excising of a key sentence from an early 2002 editorial by Bill Manning, former editor of Fire Engineering Magazine:

Respected members of the fire protection engineering community are beginning to raise red flags, and a resonating [result] has emerged:  The structural damage from the planes and the explosive ignition of jet fuel in themselves were not enough to bring down the towers.  Fire Engineering has good reason to believe that the “official investigation” blessed by FEMA…..is a half-baked farce that may already have been commandeered by political forces whose primary interests, to put it mildly, lie far afield of full disclosure.  Except for the marginal benefit obtained from a three-day, visual walk-through of evidence sites conducted by ASCE investigation committee members- described by one close source as a “tourist trip”-no one’s checking the evidence for anything.

A sentence you’ll never see in any of the “truth” movement’s literature comes right after “not enough to bring down the towers” in the original editorial:

“Rather, theory has it, the subsequent contents fires attacking the questionably fireproofed lightweight trusses and load-bearing columns directly caused the collapses in an alarmingly short time.”

He puts little ......‘s after FEMA, but not after towers.  An innocent mistake?  Perhaps, but the main offense is leaving out a sentence that changes the whole context.  Also, Jones substitutes the word “result” for the original word “theory” in that first sentence, in an apparent attempt to mislead one into thinking that the next big bold sentence about jet fuel and structural damage not being enough to bring down the towers is the “result”.  What kind of serious scientist or researcher takes this kind of unexplained literary license?  The answer is none do.  But propagandists regularly do. 

Anyone who was really serious about wanting to find out the truth of the tower’s demise would not be so untruthful in reproducing someone else’s words.  No serious scholar would willfully and blantantly leave out a portion of another’s work in order to imply that person supports his theory.  That’s what you’d expect in a political paper, certainly not in an honest scientific one.  In addition, Manning is talking here in early 2002, only a few months after the attack, before the NIST investigation had even gotten started.  How valid is it to include these selected portions of an editorial that has likely been rendered obsolete by subsequent events.  Jones is writing in 2005 for crying out loud.  How does Manning feel about the whole thing today?  Did Jones make any effort to find out?  Apparently not.

In fact, an article by other authors a year later about the WTC collapses appearing in “Fire Engineering”, whose editor was still Bill Manning, makes no mention of even the possibility of deliberate implosion:

No bombs

continued…......

page 3

Thanks goes to Rabbit for directing us to an article from the New York Times that describes the likely mechanisms of the collapse of WTC 7.  It describes the transfer trusses, and the diesel.  Steven Jones coincidentally references the article as well, so we know he is well aware of what it contains.  But predictably, he leaves out all information that might do damage to his case.  This does not indicate an honest effort to find the truth. 

Thanks, Rabbit

Jones doesn’t mention the huge amount of damage that was done to WTC 7 by the collapse of the towers.  He ignores all the predictions by NYFD pros that the building was soon to collapse, because of ominous noises in the structure, bulges and cracks in the walls, and intense fires inside that had burned unchecked for many hours, quite possibly being fed by large quantities of diesel fuel that were stored in the building.  He ignores the true nature of the collapse, and unscientifically relies on a few grainy videos for his conclusions. 

Another example of ridiculously taking an article out of context.  Jones:

Engineers have been trying to figure out exactly what happened and whether they should be worried about other buildings like it around the country…..Most of the other buildings in the [area] stood despite suffering damage of all kinds, including fire….. ‘Fire and the structural damage…..would not explain steel members in the debris pile that appear to have been partly evaporated’, Dr. Jonathan Barnett said.  (Glanz, 2001)

Now, read the entire article referenced by Jones.  Do his patchwork quotes from the article even come close to reflecting its true hypotheses and conclusions?

Glanz 2001 full 

In referencing a letter written by Kevin Ryan of Underwriters Laboratories to NIST, Jones fails to identify Ryan’s true position at U.L., which was some manager of some health division of the company unrelated to the truss/fire investigation, leaving us to assume that Ryan was some kind of high mucky-muck involved in the investigation.  He doesn’t mention that Ryan was fired for writing the unauthorized politically tinged letter to NIST.  He doesn’t reference NIST’s   reply to Ryan, or the statement by U.L. condemning Ryan’s rogue, uninformed and inappropriate action. 

Jones unscientifically references Ryan’s fringe left political emotional rant titled “A call for Personal Decision”.  In it, the intrepid statistician seeks to calculates the odds of the towers falling, using as a basis: “let’s say one in a thousand”.  He discusses the science of nationalism, racism, environmentalism and some kind of coming storm.

no science here

continued…......

page 4

Jones references Christopher Bollyn, a writer for “American Free Press”, who’s sister publication “The Barnes Review” is openly holocaust denial/revisionist.  My personal memory of Bollyn was reading his article (thanks again to Rabbit) talking about the Windsor Tower fire in Madrid, calling the building’s design “similar” to the WTC towers, but hey, it didn’t collapse!  In fact, the two are similar only in the regard that the one unprotected steel frame portion of the Windsor did indeed collapse.  From this it is clear what a dishonest or at best uninformed “journalist” Bollyn is, but hardly surprising considering his other misrepresentations of history:

“For all I know Chris [Bollyn] is a sincere (despite apparently embracing some amazing Holocaust revisionist views) hardworking investigative reporter. If that’s true, howerver, he doesn’t seem to apply a very good critical filter to the information he gathers. For example, he appears to be the source of some of the more deeply ingrained errors in the 9/11 skeptics’ literature, such as the Building 6 explosion myth…....and the idea that seismic spikes preceded the collapses….....

I recently spoke at an event in Los Angeles: “Solving the 9/11 Crime - A Citizens’ Grand Jury”, in which Chris was promoting “In Plane Site”, and presenting dozens of ideas for which I see no basis in evidence. I was so disturbed at the damage he was doing to the credibility of careful research that I spent half of my talk debunking the more nonsensical ideas he advanced in his talk just before mine.”

Chris cross-burner
9/11review.com

Jones references Donn De Grand Pre, also a writer for “American Free Press”.  What possible relevance can be attached to someone writing for such a publication?  There’s no science here, only propaganda, some of the worst kind.

There’s Chris Mooney, author of “The Republican War on Science”, an obviously politically biased source.

There’s James Risen, the NYT reporter who sees fit to inform terrorists everywhere about how we’ve managed to foil so many of their plots and catch or kill so many of their comrades.  Thanks Jim!

And Peter Meyer of Serendipity.com, a self admitted LSD connoisseur who ironically is called upon for his take on reality.

Just for reference, here is what a legitimate, ideologically free analysis of the tower’s collapse should resemble:

Greek to me

A professional scientist making such a serious challenge to what we all saw with our own eyes that day, in effect accusing dozens or perhaps even hundreds of murder, should at least be able to read, understand and thereby debunk the kinds of structural engineering related formulas and concepts contained in a paper like Bazant’s.  Jones demonstrates non of this ability or even the ability to quote someone in context.  Nor has anyone else, ironically, in the “truth” movement, which I confidently conclude is neither truthful or moving. (compelling or going anywhere)

Nat,

All the quotes you give are ad hominem arguments mostly accusing Jones of ‘left-wing bias’, association with ‘holocaust deniers’ and the like, and fallacious accusations of cherry-picking and decontextualizing.  Not a single analytic critique in the bunch.  What is it exactly about left-wingers that makes them inherently unreliable?  As opposed to, say, right-wingers? 

We’ve been around the block several times about Fireman Bill, so I’ll just say finding someone else who makes the same fallacious argument as you do doesn’t make it any truer. 

If you should actually read Jones’ paper you will see that he does reference and critique Bazant, et. al.  Quite devastatingly so.

Then we have the model  of Bazant and Zhou, which requires the majority of the 47 huge steel columns on a floor of each Tower to reach sustained temperatures of 800C in order to buckle (not melt) – at the same time.  But as we’ve seen, such temperatures are very difficult to reach while burning office materials, in these connected steel structures where the heat is wicked away by heat transport. (Paul and Hoffman, 2004, p. 26)  And then to reach the 800C at the same time, well, no, this scenario is far too improbable.

He then goes on to critique the theories of Eagar and Musso that replaced Bazant when FEMA found Bazant lacking.

You really don’t have a clue, do you?

Hope you don’t mind me reposting this Lumens.

Lumens said:

Natalie;

You know that I believe that the official story of the collapse of the WTC has a null probability of being true on 2nd Law of Thermodynamics and 3rd Law of Motion grounds alone.  The controlled demolition theory explains the physical evidence without contradiction.  What is it that I’m supposed to believe? That nefarious deep dark schemes are at the root of every facet of every major event in history? Sorry, I don’t believe that.  Just the ones that have nefarious schemes at the root.  Don’t you believe in nefarious schemes, Natalie?

I would find your arguments more compelling if they actually answered some of these outstanding questions in a forthright and logical manner.  Conspicuously misconstruing your opponents arguments and then ascribing nefarious motives to your audience has an even less than null likelihood of winning you any converts to your point of view.
Posted by luminous beauty on Jan 7, 2006 at 7:41 PM

Five pages, Nat. You’re getting blunt and boring as ever.

If you can’t address the following question, then please give us a list of reasons explaining why the official story is beyond reproach.

Griffin has written an article about the omissions and distortions in the 9/11 commision’s report.

Here is how the list begins:

Given this clarification, I now list the omissions and claims of The 9/11 Commission Report that I, in my critique of that report, portrayed as lies:

1. The omission of evidence that at least six of the alleged hijackers—-including Waleed al-Shehri, said by the Commission probably to have stabbed a flight attendant on Flight 11 before it crashed into the North Tower of the WTC—-are still alive (19-20).

Can anyone explain why this illustrious and expensive commission failed to address this issue?

Yes…all the culpable parties are running around the planet, drinking koolaid and beer, assembling Big Mac’s, and worshipping unseen others…...

that’s why 50,00 or more were able to escape our wrath on that fatal morning.

We are just too lazy and oblivious to bring about a true halocaust on a beautiful day in Septrmber.

I understand that 100,000 of us entered the subway levels of both buildings, and ignited our GED’s ....this resulted in a ‘controlled demolition’.

I’m glad you believe in the brilliance of the ‘evildoers’...

I’m in danger of thinking we’re too stupid and selfish to even contemplate this sort of mass destruction.

Genius is it’s own reward, don’t you think?

These are a great example of what I was trying to show!!
ImplosionWord (or controlled demolition

Wow, thanks, Nat!! I didn’t know that any of the steel was analyzed at all since it was whisked away fast (and tracked by GPS) before it could be looked at. As “Stever” points out, some of it WAS analyzed and found to have sulfidation and oxidation (FEMA’s report, appendix C) as is consistant with thermite (designed my military for weakening steel) explosions:

Metallurgical Examination

“Stever” had a pretty tight report that made some strong arguments. As far as political goes, maybe he is “motivated” in some way, but so is the “official” crap story the public has been fed. GPS tracked trucks hauling away debris to be shipped out?! Ummmm…that was evidence. Since when the heck did we start shipping away evidence to crime scenes to someplace where they can’t be looked at. it just doesn’t make any freaking sense!!

quoting sources and taking them grossly out of context, and by referencing blatantly politically motivated individuals, Jones manages to self-categorize his paper as propaganda rather than a serious scientific work

Wow, you’re right!! That means that almost every source I’ve seen posted here by you is BS. Holy $hit!! You’re good!! Thanks, if nothing else, you are extremely enlightening.

Yep, that William Rodriguez that “Stever” quotes is one politically motivated individual!

Minerva, what the hell are you talking about?

Hell, wiley;

I probably should have just reposted that or any other post in response to Nat’s inability to distinguish reputation from presentation.  She’s only got that one trick.

the ‘evildoers’

I dunno what she’s talking about, but she uses a Bush quote.

all the culpable parties are running around the planet, drinking koolaid and beer, assembling Big Mac’s, and worshipping unseen others

Really?! I thought they got promoted and / or a second term in office. I’m a “conservative” and these people still have big enough holes in their stories to drive a Mac truck through. *SIGH* Theodore Roosevelt a real leader of the people and a shining example of a great party. GWB gives me the creeps.

Damn my typos!! That link up there was supposed to say “implosionWorld (or controlled demolition)” and not “ImplosionWord (or controlled demolition.”

At any rate, they are really cool examples of controlled demolitions (maybe caused by lit GED’s?) that speak volumes when compared to the tower footage (Thanks, Nat!!). A must see!! Dynamite!! Explosive!! (obscure reference again)

I was thinking just that, Lumens. Her whole schtick is like an astonishing medley of casseroles, in which the number of apparent varieties truly is astonishing, once you realize that they are all the same low budget tuna casserole.

Not a bad trick for a one-trick pony. Maybe with a little pressure she’ll come up with another one.

Natalie, have you tryed lying yet? Just make something up. That sounds like fun doesn’t it?

Hooray for the Natalie has finally shed her cutesy face and instead we see her fangs, hollow fangs, full of poison like a serpent, or a VAMPIRE.  IT is so for she now trys to openly suck the life from the truth with ad-hominem and character assainations. Perverting laguage to mean it’s opposite when in fact she has been thrashed and killed many times on these and other matters.  Grumbling and casting foul aspersions upon Rabbit who has never helped her filthy causes in any way.

Shortly Rabbit shall post more recent real things he has seen about 911.  Our cause goes forth SHILL, and yours dies as you flap about like a dumb and ugly bat.

Minerva you are an Idiot.  Rabbit doesn’t get you’re reference to cops good or bad, and it is little better than Tiny Shrew’s gibbering.  Actually it is better than Than Riny Shrew’s gibbering she is a complete nut job or Rocco is right it is a Robot.  You are however down there below even the lowest common denoinator in your grasp of ...anything really.

Bang Bang Bang

Read it Minny Mind, and Batty Natty, have you got a friend Sweety?  Isn’t that lovely.  You make such a lovely couple of dumb bitches too.

Rabbit knows who among us would classify as good bad or cops, but you too are Dumb and Dumber, and make a good case for the following joke which Rabbit offers as a trully funny thing in a mature sense.  Do you have any Knock Knock Jokes or Riddle to offer next Minerva?

A man enters a bar and orders a drink. The bar has a robot
> bartender.
>    The robot serves him a perfectly prepared cocktail, and then asks
>    him, “What’s your IQ?”
>    The man replies “150” and the robot proceeds to make conversation
>    about global warming factors, quantum physics and spirituality,
>    biomimicry, environmental interconnectedness, string theory,
>    nano-technology, and sexual proclivities.
>    The customer is very impressed and thinks, “This is really cool.” He
>    decides to test the robot. He walks out of the bar, turns around,
>    and comes back in for another drink. Again, the robot serves him the
>    perfectly prepared drink and asks him, “What’s your IQ?”
>    The man responds, “about a 100.”
>    Immediately the robot starts talking, but this time, about football,
>    NASCAR, baseball, supermodels, favorite fast foods, guns, and
>    women’s breasts.
>    Really impressed, the man leaves the bar and decides to give the
>    robot one more test. He heads out and returns, the robot serves him
>    and asks, “What’s your IQ?”
>    The man replies, “Er, 50, I think.”
>    And the robot says… real slowly… “So…............ ya gonna
>    vote for Bush again?
>

another 9/11 link

Wow, Rabbit! Your link is great. It is so refreshing. I’m going back in. See ya.

Sometimes something is just totally devastating to the small claims and character assaults, the ad-hominem and emotional clap-trap of such prize Morons as our resident Shill Natalie and her most recent “mate” in idiocy Minerva, that the article deserves a full cut and post.

Thus it cannot be subjected to the usual spin and marginalisation of Nat the Bat.  Coming as it does from the corner of the great stink, there where Nat the Pro Liar lives, any attack on anything becomes an endorsement of that’s likely truth and substance.  A sort of anti-endorsement.

So Nat the Bat and Minny Mind, enjoy having your own feeble hopes for any of the assaults on your citadel of ignorance, dashed by this.  Seems The good and Honourable Professor Steven Jones is not going to fade away so quietly.    You be Rabbit’s Biatch!

(Is that how the Tiny Shrew said it Guys?)

BYU professor’s group accuses U.S. officials of lying about 9/11

By Elaine Jarvik
Deseret Morning News

    Last fall, Brigham Young University physics professor Steven E. Jones made headlines when he charged that the World Trade Center collapsed because of “pre-positioned explosives.” Now, along with a group that calls itself “Scholars for 9/11 Truth,” he’s upping the ante.
    “We believe that senior government officials have covered up crucial facts about what really happened on 9/11,” the group says in a statement released Friday announcing its formation. “We believe these events may have been orchestrated by the administration in order to manipulate the American people into supporting policies at home and abroad.”
    Headed by Jones and Jim Fetzer, University of Minnesota Duluth distinguished McKnight professor of philosophy, the group is made up of 50 academicians and others.
    They include Robert M. Bowman, former director of the U.S. “Star Wars” space defense program, and Morgan Reynolds, former chief economist for the Department of Labor in President George W. Bush’s first term. Most of the members are less well-known.
    The group’s Web site (www.ST911.org) includes an updated version of Jones’s paper about the collapse of the Twin Towers and a paper by Fetzer that looks at conspiracy theories. The government’s version of the events of 9/11 — that the plane’s hijackers were tied to Osama bin Laden — is its own conspiracy theory, says Fetzer, who has studied the John F. Kennedy assassination since 1992.
    “Did the Bush administration know in advance about the impending attacks that occurred on 9/11, and allow these to happen, to provoke pre-planned wars against Afghanistan and Iraq? These questions demand immediate answers,” charges a paper written collectively by Scholars for 9/11 Truth. The group plans to write more papers, and present lectures and conferences.
    “We have very limited resources and no subpoena powers,” Fetzer said. “What you have is a bunch of serious scholars taking a look at this and discovering it didn’t add up. We don’t have a political ax to grind.”
    Fetzer has doctorates in the history and philosophy of science. “One of the roles I can play here,” he said, “is to explain why a certain line of argument is correct or not.”
    In his original message to potential members last month, Fetzer warned that joining the group might make them the subject of government surveillance and might get them on various lists of “potential terrorists.”
    The group’s charges include:
    • Members of the Bush administration knew in advance that the 9/11 attacks would happen but did nothing to stop them.

• No Air Force or Air National Guard jets were sent to “scramble” the hijacked planes, which were clearly deviating from their flight plans, although jet fighters had been deployed for scramblings 67 times in the year prior to 9/11. The procedure for issuing orders for scrambling was changed in June 2001, requiring that approval could only come from the Secretary of Defense, but Donald Rumsfeld was not alerted soon enough on 9/11, according to Scholars group.

    • The video of Osama bin Laden found by American troops in Afghanistan in December 2001, in which bin Laden says he orchestrated the attacks, is not bin Laden. The Scholars for 9/11 Truth compared the video with a photo of the “real” bin Laden and argue that there are discrepancies in the ratio of nose-length to nose-width, as well as distance from tip-of-nose to ear lobe.
    The Scholars group hopes that media outlets around the world will ask experts in their areas to examine the group’s findings and assertions. If this were done, they argue, “one of the great hoaxes of history would stand naked before the eyes of the world.”
    The group also asks for an investigation of the collapse of the World Trade Center buildings, following up on points made in Jones’s paper, “Why Indeed Did the WTC Buildings Collapse?” That paper, recently updated, has been posted on Jones’s BYU Web site since last November.
    Jones argues that the WTC buildings did not collapse due to impact or fires caused by the jets hitting the towers but collapsed as a result of pre-positioned “cutter charges.” Proof, he says, includes:

    • Molten metal was found in the subbasements of WTC sites weeks after 9/11; the melting point of structural steel is 2,750 degrees Fahrenheit and the temperature of jet fuel does not exceed 1,800 degrees. Molten metal was also found in the building known as WTC7, although no plane had struck it. Jones’s paper also includes a photo of a slag of the metal being extracted from ground zero. The slag, Jones argues, could not be aluminum from the planes because in photographs the metal was salmon-to-yellow-hot temperature (approximately 1,550 to 1,900 degrees F) “well above the melting temperatures of lead and aluminum,” which would be a liquid at that temperature.

    • Building WTC7 collapsed in 6.6 seconds, which means, Jones says, that the steel and concrete support had to be simply knocked out of the way. “Explosive demolitions are like that,” he said. “It doesn’t fit the model of the fire-induced pancake collapse.”

    • No steel-frame, high-rise buildings have ever before or since been brought down due to fires. Temperatures due to fire don’t get hot enough for buildings to collapse, he says.

    • Jones points to a recent article in the journal New Civil Engineering that says WTC disaster investigators at NIST (the National Institutes of Standards and Technology) “are refusing to show computer visualizations of the collapse of the Twin Towers despite calls from leading structural and fire engineers.”

   

Down down deeper and down Natalie.  The choir is deafening these days isn’t it?  At least you and Minny Mind can form a small glee club.

Don’t deny it Natty ever since the Depleted Uranium issue you have been the rabbit’s bitch….................................................................... ....and Scorpy is his Troll.  Why doesn’t Scorpy ever help you on the 911 issue Nat?  Rabbit wonders why his troll and his bitch have never gotten together to try and salage some sort of honour from the history of being wacked from pillar to post.

............................^^.............................

Minny Mind finds it hard to believe the US government could casually murder three thousand of it’s own (Actually I think they were aiming for a lot more).

This is funny.  The same government caused the deaths of about 1.5 million Iraqi’s mostly Children before attacking that country for nothing except proven lies. 

Since then they have poisoned hundreds of thousands more and ensured that Iraq will be forever contaminated with Depleted Uranium in it’s most deadly form.  Hundreds of thousands of US troops have also been contaminated and caused disabilities from the first gulf war alone, and they are basically being treated as expendable and embarrassments by the government.

The same government has ignored or cast aside every treaty or convention on human rights, warfare or environment. The same government has statedly got no more regard for your once vaunted constitution than for toilet paper.

The same government has built dozens even hundreds of concentration camps all over the US, and is currently staffing them foir the first time, ........they are empty ....so far.

The government of the USA is recognised by ALL International humanitarian groups as the worst offender of all manner of human rights abuses.

Minny Mind has a problem imagining it’s government, author of all the above abuses and more, would be capable of murdering a few thousand Americans on home soil.

Well Minny Mind, whilst Rabbit will not argue that Stupidity and Selfishness are defining charateristics of the USA as a nation, the rabbit has a problem doubting their will, more likely their desire to murder a few thousand of their own subjects in order to set up the conditions for doing all of the above.

From the bang bang bang link above.

George W. Bush was in the process of becoming the original first-term lame duck president in history. Half the country believed (correctly) that he pulled a fast one in order to slither into the White House in the first place. One of his first orders of business was to eliminate repetitive motion injury claims for working Americans. Vermont Senator, Jim Jeffords, defected to an independent status in order to hand power to the Democrats in protest of the bullying tactics displayed early on by the White House. Bush’s tax-cut package was already doing damage to the surplus. America was bumped off the UN Human Rights panel while Bush was letting Russia know that he was dumping the ABM Treaty. Cheney was holding fund raisers in the Veep Mansion (shades of Clinton White House Teas!) while his and Bush’s pals at Enron were laughing about soaking somebody’s grandma in California for a “C note” every time she used her toaster.

        There were also the twenty-four military personnel that had been held hostage until Bush said he was really, really sorry for them colliding into a Chinese aircraft which prompted his neo-con buddies to weep and whine that Bush had been made to look “weak.” Oh, and let’s not forget about “faith-based environmentalism” which started getting airplay around the same time that Bush told everyone to go pound salt when it came to the Kyoto Treaty.

Rabbit can’t find that on that link Wiley?  It’s all about witness testimony from 911.

Technorabbit, thanks for yesterday’s “Bang Bang Bang ” Firemens’ Oral History.

http://www.911truth.org/article.php?story=20060118104223192
(checking mycutandpaste—-I guess it’d take a while to explain for dummies how to do clickable links ?  )

Wiles was complaining about lack of recordings , and OUT they came from the woodwork., last october.  So the NYT and others finally extracted them from CityHall, so maybe Freedom Moles in NYT ..............?

Net-hopping around, now obvious that DHS and FEMA are being prepared solely for internal repression, and I too have seen evidence on concentration camps. FEMA’s disregard of the original remit , proved by Katrina, is increasingly obvious . And then we saw Dyncorp mercenaries fresh from Bagdad in the streets of new Orleans—————-CRAZY.

Natty & Miny—more reading-matter for you——

Another little nugget on making money from Mass Hysteria and the People’s Fears for their Security: do a google on “Rumsfeld Gilead Sciences Tamiflu”.

So Rummy was a director Of Gilead for years, CEO till he moved back to be Sec Of State for Invasions, and is making millions. In the beginning the press told us Merck had the patent, but in fact they just licence it from Rummy and friends. Smart cat, eh ? And aspartame too!

frog,

Aspartame, too?  The bastards.

To post linkies, use these html tags

< a href = ” url ” >  Link < / a >  with no spaces between the < >s except between a and href.

When you have a longish url it helps to use
tinyurl . 

Scroll down to the blue tinyurl and click and drag to your tool bar.  When you are on a page to which you want to link, just click on the icon and one is automatically generated. copy and paste. 

The trick is to avoid breaking the url in the line of text.

Rabbit found another url shrinking site.  SNIPURL.  Even more simple though if anything.

Frog. Hello Frog…....Rabbit just likes saying Frog it’s a good word carrying good connotations and postive things.  If the environment get’s sick the frogs know first.  Rabbit’s get a feeling for it pretty quickly too of course. Frog you must make a point of hopping a bit in the presence of Rocco when you come across him.  He is a friendly, but he likes to poke at hoppers, and needs a small wack with a rubber bat to keep him in line once in a while.  He has it in his mind, which is generally of a shiny variety, that Rabbit is somehow his nemesis.  Foolish imagining as it is, it is bound to be fun if he see’s a frog now too.  Rabbit has a premonition he will be “just delighted”.  .............frog .............froggy frog.

Frog, do you know where the rabbit lives?  You may visit if you wish, it is informal.  So of course can Lume but he knows that.  Nat and Minny Mind may not.  Which is why Rabbit will not post it’s address .  Their horrible eyes may not even look upon the Rabbit’s pleasant pasture of peace and tranquility.,  The door to the place will be via the small ears when next you see them^^. 

[url=“http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=G GRI20060129&articleId=1846”]The Destruction of the World Trade Center: Why the Official Account Cannot Be True
[/url]

Hi Lumens, it seems that the breaking of urls by the line inside of the HTML doesn’t break the urls if one is careful.  Check the source page under View, and see that the full urls are used here and it was three lines long in the comments box.

[url=“http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=viewArticle&code=G GRI20060129&articleId=1846”]    Why the Official Account Cannot Be True
[/url].

Forget that for now, it isn’t working now Rabbit want’s to.  No lousy electrons, dance for dave when he says it.  Doing it for Rabbit when nobody is looking but no not now.

WHY THE OFFICIAL ACCOUNT IS BULLSHIT!

Thanks lumen, will experiment later, still some daylight here in frogland so must get outside,  soon !

In France minds are less concentrated than in the US, and countries that have troops in Iraq/afghanistan, so when I first expressed my “doubts” about a year ago, many friends thought I had gone mad. Such is the power of the media, and of course a natural disinclination to confront the existence of EVIL.

NOW I would look them straight in the eyes and ask how many hours have you spent researching it ?
<a >Link</a>
WILL try later !!!

Hooray it worked but only with a tiny url.

I think the problem came from the url having certain symbols in it like ? and maybe =

Hello Frog. your link was missing a ” after org.  Try again froggy you can do it, it’s quite exhilarating once you can.  Like swinging on a swing for the first time.  Now really but it was a nice image and I wanted to use it.

Bye for now.  I have a boat to pop out of the oven.

Link

Link

Ugh.OINK. Off to dig some carrots and get a pack’o bacccy.

Thought I’d stuffed it, but O how Wondrous.

Thanks rabbit and lumens. Will experiment onwards.

Being a dumbdumb;I still await final proof that the creation of an iranian Euro-petroeuro was really the decisive factor. For that Invasion and the forthcoming Iranian Strikes. “Strikes on Iran”.

Having once upon a time being myself a small cog in those markets, why not ‘accept a dollar - price, and then immediately do a “swap” for future Euros ?

Hello everybody,

I have found that the easiest way to avoid messing up the HTML link codes is to have a document where the codes like are blank and then you can simply cut and paste them into your post and add the URL and link.

Don’t feel bad about the electrons not wanting to dance for you all the time Rabbit. Even I had a link that crashed and burned a few days ago.

A Rare Froggy Alternative Newssite

testing my new sexy electrons canuck.

Screaming again at our euro-news.

I AM STILL WAITING FOR THE JOURNO who interviews the britgov, frenchgov, germangov, Minister or other likudnik source, who will say .—

“”“Minister, before you open your mouth. Do you have anything to say Apart From the RITUAL DEMAND that , blablablablablabla,  Hamas recognise Israel and “Renounce Violence” ?””

If not, fuck off .

Frog

why not ‘accept a dollar - price, and then immediately do a “swap” for future Euros

Because the dollars have a fast diminishing stability, and intrinisc value.  With the US economy noy in default again with a budget deficit of more than 8 trillion dollars, and NO foreseeable change to an exponential slide down.  The USA has no manufacturing base, it’s main export is little green pieces of paper.  The US Economy backs the dollar in a sense, and it is in hoc to the privately owned Federal Reserve, which via the most singular act of piracy in history prints the little green pieces of paper, and LOANS them to the USA,  at a rate of interest.

You may sell your oil for a relatively large amount of dollars, and then struggle to offload those dollars, which will probably be losing value faster than you can convert them anyway.  The demand for Euro’s and the booming European Economy (relatively) or at least it’s population base, production capacity in all areas and hunger for imports of at least energy, will cause the Euro’s to rise correspondingly against the dollar.

Frog the way I see it the real war is between the Dollar and the Euro, over Oil of course.

The Euro does not have to replace the Dollar as the reserve currency of the world which is really just a default condition of it being traditionally the only currency used for Energy sales.  This via the two existing bourses in London and New York. 

The Euro is seeking an inroad into the world economy on it’s own merit.  Consider the fiscal state of the USA, and it’s obvious instability.  Wy should the Europeans who have united economically for their own common good, be forced to puchase a commodity which they are needing in such vast quantities, from one party, who has a legitimate reciprocal trading interest with their own economy, using the currency of a third party thus paying them a dividend?

It makes no sense for Europeans to purchase Oil in Dollars, what would they buy from the USA with them?  It makes no sense for Iranians to sell oil in Dollars if they are importing lots of European products. Technology, clothing, cars agricultural products, chemicals, medicines, industrial and agricultural machinery.  These are all major European Exports, and they are well represented here in Oz too in all those fields and more.  More and more.

Rabbit has not seen any product made in the USA in his life, except some weapons we used in the Army, and a pocket knife or two.

Oops rambling rabbit forgot to complete this thought.

The Euro does not have to replace the Dollar as the reserve currency of the world which is really just a default condition of it being traditionally the only currency used for Energy sales.  It need only command it’s fair share in an equitable world economy.  The problem arises when the Usa or it’s masters, have decreed that they intend to control the lions share of the world’s energy, especially for their own use, but that they will furthermore tax everyone’s else’s use of energy.

I repeat this is the most mostrous and singular act of piracy in history.  It is no less an act of blatant global piracy than thousands are being killed weekly in the skirmishes it engenders too.

Rabbit’s first wife came from Arras by the way Frog.  Her family name Couanon, was a restauranter family up to the war and occupation.  My ex-father in law was a veteran of Algeria. Rabbit speaks no Frog, but a few words, has visited briefly when living in Scandinavia for six years, but apart from a funny hotel and a few restaurants, scenery and “unique road usage”, cannot claim any knowledge of Frogland.

Mostly frogs are alright, Rabbit has had a few good frog friends over the years.  In some ways frogs are the Americans of Europe I think.  But not anywhere near as extreme.  At least you use metrics.  Actually didn’t you guys invent Metrics?  (Metrics is more like a discovery than an invention) That is an endorsement in itself.  How simple and balanced and elegant. 

No wonder the USA still thinks it is witchcraft.

wileywitch wrote that David Griffin wrote:

1. The omission of evidence that at least six of the alleged hijackers—-including Waleed al-Shehri, said by the Commission probably to have stabbed a flight attendant on Flight 11 before it crashed into the North Tower of the WTC—-are still alive (19-20).

Please document this evidence for me, wiley.  Show me how you affirmed to yourself that six (or more!) of the hijackers that appear in the 9/11 commission report are still actually alive.

Luminous,

The Bazant/Zhou analysis was presented as a tentative explanation as to the reasons for the collapse, which was somewhat surprising to most.  The important point is that it was not terribly surprising to structural engineers, as evidenced by the promply produced analysis by Bazant and Zhou.  It was produced only a few days after the attack and contained the qualifier:

Closing Comments

Once accurate computer calculations are carried out, various details of the failure mechanism will doubtless be found to differ from the present simplifying hypotheses. Errors by a factor of 2 would not be terribly surprising, but that would hardly matter since the present analysis reveals order-of-magnitude differences between the dynamic loads and the structural resistance. There have been many interesting, but intuitive, competing explanations of the collapse. To decide their viability, however, it is important to do at least some crude calculations. For example, it has been suggested that the connections of the floor-supporting trusses to the framed tube columns were not strong enough. Maybe they were not, but even if they were it would have made no difference, as shown by the present simple analysis.

Nor was the collapse suprising to the guys manning the police helicopters, who witnessed the intensity of the fires, and urgently warned about the imminent collapse.  Unfortunately, the firemen in the buildings were prevented from hearing those warnings.  Now there’s a story worth pursuing, it might contain some conspiracies, and maybe even involve some corporations! 

I would expect Jones, after all these years, to substitute his estimates of the temperature, (which of course nobody really knows for sure) in Bazant’s formulas, or some of his own, and show us how the collapse would have been impossible at lower temperatures without supplemental explosives.  I don’t believe he is capable of doing this.  This is what I find lacking in his analysis from a technical standpoint, on top of his dependence on ridiculously unreliable sources of information and his talent for quote manipulation, which is an obvious form of dishonesty.

Do you have any comment on the apparent fact that Jones has not convinced any reputable scientific or engineering journal to publish his paper, which I assume would require peer review?  You didn’t address this point which I stressed as being most telling.

Do you find it acceptable for a University level science scholar to cite as sources Holocaust revisionists and LSD fans?  You dismissed this rather summarily.

BTW, the publisher of “American Free Press” and “The Barnes Review” is most commonly described as being “right wing”:

Officially the “Treasurer” of the Washington, DC-based Liberty Lobby, Willis Allison Carto is the group’s founder and driving force. Over the group’s 40-year history, Carto has come into contact with virtually every significant figure on the radical right and he remains perhaps the most influential professional anti-Semite in the United States.

http://www.adl.org/holocaust/carto.asp

Does it not strike you as odd that Jones would cite “American Free Press”?  Don’t you think it would be unwise to support your historical argument using a source known for disgusting historical revisionism? 

What is Jones thinking?  Can we trust his judgement?  I think clearly not.

I find it interesting that some people try to use as evidence for controlled demolition videos produced by folks such as “Implosionworld”.

There is one large problem with doing this, however.  These demolition professionals, along with professionals capable of building the towers, don’t for a second suspect the use of deliberately placed explosives:

DID THE WORLD TRADE CENTER TOWERS ACTUALLY “IMPLODE”?

The only correlation is that in a very broad sense, explosive devices (airplanes loaded with fuel) were used to intentionally bring down buildings. However it can be argued that even this vague similarity relates more to military explosive demolition than to building implosions, which specifically involve the placement of charges at key points within a structure to precipitate the failure of steel or concrete supports within their own footprint. The other primary difference between these two types of operations is that implosions are universally conducted with the utmost concern for adjacent properties and human safety—-elements that were horrifically absent from this event. Therefore we can conclude that what happened in New York was not a “building implosion.”

http://www.implosionworld.com/wtc.htm

You have a lot of posts to attaend to Natalie, if you don’t look at anything and just fill up space with your shilling, don’t expect anyone to take much notice of you.  We are used to you by now, Shill.

Quite the professional shill today too it seems.

No snicky snacky, just in there and shill. 
Spill the swill and grind the mill,
Nattys back to shill for dills.

Tell us what you think of all the new choir members.?

At least seventy more professional opinions have been given above since your last appearance, all condemning the official theory totally, on the attack Nat, put on the nasty hat and wack these men for being obvious Bush haters and weirdos and Communists.

The final few links leave you bereft of a cause, if only you could admit it.  But of course not Shill, you must stick to the drill.  Spew the swill, fill the bill and make a pill out of yourself.  It is easy for Minny Mind to be so stupid, it comes naturally to it you can see that can’t you?  But as for Nat the Vampire, she is more than this idiot she is forced to play. 

You’d be great Nat, if only you had better material to work with.

And do be assured it is pure random chance which catches you so soon as Rabbit usually does.  He NEVER would waste his email space with stupid notifications of comments.

You must project an aura of evil ahead of you so that Rabbit is attracted on a subconscious level.

anyway

one WACK, from the Rabbit for being so slimy…..

You also wait the prescribed time too as always, hoping against hope that nobody will be watching the thread anymore.  Hoping and praying to Baal, your god, that you will be the last word, and it will look like you have achieved something, ayt least at a glance.

The sort of reading that Jay deCline and Minny Mind do for example might then lead them to conclude you are the great sage.

No Natty you are too boring for Rabbit to trifle with after so long, on issue which he demolished you on many times over before the MANY recent new statements and evidence which has emerged. 

You are exploring a new form of credibility measure where your credeibilty is not zero but in a negative range measured on a logarithmic scale, thingy which Rabbit could never understand, so it is awesome to behold.

You may actually change reality in a negative sense, merely by means of saying something is so, the universal balance will be assuaged only by a dimensional shift which makes it untrue, for else you could not have uttered the words.

Bit by bit, from the Bullshit link.

The official theory is rendered implausible by two major problems. The first is the simple fact that fire has never—-prior to or after 9/11—-caused steel-frame high-rise buildings to collapse. Defenders of the official story seldom if ever mention this simple fact. Indeed, the supposedly definitive report put out by NIST—-the National Institute for Standards and Technology (2005)—-even implies that fire-induced collapses of large steel-frame buildings are normal events (Hoffman, 2005).[4] Far from being normal, however, such collapses have never occurred, except for the alleged cases of 9/11.

Defenders of the official theory, of course, say that the collapses were caused not simply by the fire but the fire combined with the damage caused by the airliners. The towers, however, were designed to withstand the impact of airliners about the same size as Boeing 767s.[5] Hyman Brown, the construction manager of the Twin Towers, said: “They were over-designed to withstand almost anything, including hurricanes, . . . bombings and an airplane hitting [them]” (Bollyn, 2001). And even Thomas Eagar, an MIT professor of materials engineering who supports the official theory, says that the impact of the airplanes would not have been significant, because “the number of columns lost on the initial impact was not large and the loads were shifted to remaining columns in this highly redundant structure” (Eagar and Musso, 2001, pp. 8-11). Likewise, the NIST Report, in discussing how the impact of the planes contributed to the collapse, focuses primarily on the claim that the planes dislodged a lot of the fire-proofing from the steel.[6]

The official theory of the collapse, therefore, is essentially a fire theory, so it cannot be emphasized too much that fire has never caused large steel-frame buildings to collapse—-never, whether before 9/11, or after 9/11, or anywhere in the world on 9/11 except allegedly New York City—-never.

Your whole sack of crap is worthless unless it attends to these simple facts, Dimwit.

One might say, of course, that there is a first time for everything, and that a truly extraordinary fire might induce a collapse. Let us examine this idea. What would count as an extraordinary fire? Given the properties of steel, a fire would need to be very hot, very big, and very long-lasting. But the fires in the towers did not have even one of these characteristics, let alone all three.

There have been claims, to be sure, that the fires were very hot. Some television specials claimed that the towers collapsed because the fire was hot enough to melt the steel. For example, an early BBC News special quoted Hyman Brown as saying: “steel melts, and 24,000 gallons of aviation fluid melted the steel.” Another man, presented as a structural engineer, said: “It was the fire that killed the buildings. There’s nothing on earth that could survive those temperatures with that amount of fuel burning. . . . The columns would have melted” (Barter, 2001).[7]

These claims, however, are absurd. Steel does not even begin to melt until it reaches almost 2800° Fahrenheit.[8] And yet open fires fueled by hydrocarbons, such as kerosene—-which is what jet fuel is—-can at most rise to 1700°F, which is almost 1100 degrees below the melting point of steel.[9] We can, accordingly, dismiss the claim that the towers collapsed because their steel columns melted.[10]

Most defenders of the official theory, in fact, do not make this absurd claim. They say merely that the fire heated the steel up to the point where it lost so much of its strength that it buckled.[11] For example, Thomas Eagar, saying that steel loses 80 percent of its strength when it is heated to 1,300°F, argues that this is what happened. But for even this claim to plausible, the fires would have still had to be pretty hot.

But they were not. Claims have been made, as we have seen, about the jet fuel. But much of it burned up very quickly in the enormous fireballs produced when the planes hit the buildings, and rest was gone within 10 minutes,[12] after which the flames died down. Photographs of the towers 15 minutes after they were struck show few flames and lots of black smoke, a sign that the fires were oxygen-starved. Thomas Eagar, recognizing this fact, says that the fires were “probably only about 1,200 or 1,300°F” (Eagar, 2002).

There are reasons to believe, moreover, that the fires were not even that hot. As photographs show, the fires did not break windows or even spread much beyond their points of origin (Hufschmid, 2002, p. 40). This photographic evidence is supported by scientific studies carried out by NIST, which found that of the 16 perimeter columns examined, “only three columns had evidence that the steel reached temperatures above 250°C [482°F],” and no evidence that any of the core columns had reached even those temperatures (2005, p. 88).

NIST (2005) says that it “did not generalize these results, since the examined columns represented only 3 percent of the perimeter columns and 1 percent of the core columns from the fire floors”. That only such a tiny percent of the columns was available was due, of course, to the fact that government officials had most of the steel immediately sold and shipped off. In any case, NIST’s findings on the basis of this tiny percent of the columns are not irrelevant: They mean that any speculations that some of the core columns reached much higher temperatures would be just that—-pure speculation not backed up by any empirical evidence.

Moreover, even if the fire had reached 1,300°F, as Eagar supposes, that does not mean that any of the steel would have reached that temperature. Steel is an excellent conductor of heat. Put a fire to one part of a long bar of steel and the heat will quickly diffuse to the other parts and to any other pieces of steel to which that bar is connected.[13]

For fires to have heated up some of the steel columns to anywhere close to their own temperature, they would have needed to be very big, relative to the size of the buildings and the amount of steel in them. The towers, of course, were huge and had an enormous amount of steel. A small, localized fire of 1,300°F would never have heated any of the steel columns even close to that temperature, because the heat would have been quickly dispersed throughout the building.

.........................

In any case, the fires, to weaken the steel columns, would have needed to be not only very big and very hot but also very long-lasting.[16] The public was told that the towers had such fires, with CNN saying that “very intense” fires “burned for a long time.”[17] But they did not. The north tower collapsed an hour and 42 minutes after it was struck; the south tower collapsed after only 56 minutes.

To see how ludicrous is the claim that the short-lived fires in the towers could have induced structural collapse, we can compare them with some other fires. In 1988, a fire in the First Interstate Bank Building in Los Angeles raged for 3.5 hours and gutted 5 of this building’s 62 floors, but there was no significant structural damage (FEMA, 1988). In 1991, a huge fire in Philadelphia’s One Meridian Plaza lasted for 18 hours and gutted 8 of the building’s 38 floors, but, said the FEMA report, although “eams and girders sagged and twisted . . . under severe fire exposures. . . , the columns continued to support their loads without obvious damage” (FEMA, 1991). In Caracas in 2004, a fire in a 50-story building raged for 17 hours, completely gutting the building’s top 20 floors, and yet it did not collapse (Nieto, 2004). And yet we are supposed to believe that a 56-minute fire caused the south tower to collapse.

Unlike the fires in the towers, moreover, the fires in Los Angeles, Philadelphia, and Caracas were hot enough to break windows.

Another important comparison is afforded by a series of experiments run in Great Britain in the mid-1990s to see what kind of damage could be done to steel-frame buildings by subjecting them to extremely hot, all-consuming fires that lasted for many hours. FEMA, having reviewed those experiments, said: “Despite the temperature of the steel beams reaching 800-900°C (1,500-1,700°F) in three of the tests. . . , no collapse was observed in any of the six experiments” (1988, Appendix A).

These comparisons bring out the absurdity of NIST’s claim that the towers collapsed because the planes knocked the fireproofing off the steel columns. Fireproofing provides protection for only a few hours, so the steel in the buildings in Philadelphia and Caracas would have been directly exposed to raging fires for 14 or more hours, and yet this steel did not buckle. NIST claims, nevertheless, that the steel in the south tower buckled because it was directly exposed to flames for 56 minutes.