What’s the 411 on 9/11?

Natalie is a funny one sometimes. 

BTW Natalie, talking of Slander, your favorite fare, how about you don’t go calling the Rabbit a Holocaust denier behind his back, ,and then scuttling away like a dirty little crab when the rabbit popped up and called you on it.

This was on the Democrats It’s the War thread I believe.

This rabbit has never denied anything about WW2 except that the Holocaust, involving Jews was not the central or even the biggest mass killings carried out by not only Nazi germany but also by Russia, predominantly by JEWISH extremists, Bolsheviks who murdered about ten times as many Christians. That is just recognising history Natalie and doesn’t costitute denial in any mans book. 

It is important to note that you would stoop to slinging Holocaust Denial accusations around, it should be compared with your sly references to others involving drugs or religion or sexual or political or whatever mud you think you can stick.  All the various innuendos you try and caste when you you have nothing but truth to face otherwise.

Like Dave once said, your armour is not so shiny my Girly.

Talk of Holocausts, and strocities generally would not seem to be very safe territory for someone who shamelessly shills for Depleted Uranium.

Someone who also Shills for an illegal war of aggression and what is fast looking to become the greatest war criminal junta in history. 

Hasn’t it occurred to Natalie yet that we know where you would have been during world war two?

Natalie you would without a shadow of a doubt have been shilling for der Fuerer, and we know even if you don’t.

BTW have you had your Special Vaccination yet?  Did they promise you you would get one?  If you don’t have it yet, then the word is you are S.O.L.  Like so many other minor underlings you’ll be left to contend with the bada bada bug, just like the rest of us you had sold out.

Coming Up with Rabbit’s entry Wiley. 

The Towers Were Designed to Survive Large Jet Collisions.
Each tower was designed to survive the impact and fire from a collision by a 707-340 carrying 23,000 gallons of fuel. The similar- sized 767-200s that hit the towers were each carrying about 10,000 gallons of fuel.

Each tower was supported by both a palisade of columns forming its outer wall and a bundle of 47 massive steel columns in its core structure. Like all large engineered structures, the towers were over-engineered to support many times anticipated loads, to survive severe and improbable events, including bombings and fires. The plane crashes severed about 33 of the North Tower’s and 24 of the South Tower’s 240 perimeter columns. The South Tower impact trajectory suggests its core structure was barely damaged. Absent severe winds and earthquakes, each tower should have easily survived damage to even a majority of its columns. Each tower’s crash and fire damage was limited to an asymmetrical minority of columns and a few floors. yet each tower collapsed symmetrically, and into small pieces.

The Fires Were Not Unusually Severe.
Since jet fuel (kerosene) boils easily and its vapors ignite easily, it burns off rapidly. FEMA admits the fuel must have been used up within “a few minutes”. Thereafter the fires burned fuels similar to those in ordinary office fires. The impact holes became dard shortly after each collision, and the smoke darkened over time—a sign of oxygen-starved fires. After the South Tower had been hit, at least 18 people evacuated from above the impact zone down stairwells passing through it.

There is no evidence that, even at their hottest immediately after the impacts, the fires approached the 700 degrees C required to significantly soften steel. Such temperatures would have caused regions of the building to glow red hot in broad daylight. The oxygen-starved fires likely remained below 400 degrees C, and would be harmless to the steel frame even in the absence of insulation. There is no evidence that the fires ever damaged the core structures. Note that softening of steel by high temperatures is reversible, and that steel is a good conductor of heat. If any structural steel had lost strength in the first minutes of the fires, it would have regained most of it as the fires cooled after consuming the jet fuel.

Fires Don’t Cause Skyscrapers to Collapse.
If WTC towers 1 and 2 and WTC 7 collapsed because of the fires it would be the first time in history that a steel-frame skyscraper totally collapsed because of fires or any other cause or combination of causes other than controlled demolition.
47-story WTC 7 sustained no impacts from aircraft or large falling objects, and only small fires were observed within it prior to its precisely vertical “collapse” into a small tidy rubble pile, 7 hours after the North Tower fell.

What are the odds that three buildings would for the first time in history collapse in precisely the same, never before seen fashion despite one being substantially different from the other two and with nothing like the same damage, and that of all the buildings damaged that day, these three all belonged to one man............and he had just overinsured them all a few weeks earlier..................?

What are the odds dears? ..................^^.....................

Oh and what are the odds that it would all happen within a single work day, with time for a long and lazy lunch. ?

7 hours from start to finish.  Not even any overtime needed for the controllers.  Home for dinner. What are the odds?

“When do you think you’ll be home Dick?”

“Oh hopefully not too late, we’ve got a few skyscrapers to knock over and a few thousand people to kill, and a lunch with some of the gang, but I expect to get it all over within working hours.”

“What’s George doing?”

“They’ve got him stuck away with a bunch of schoolkids somewhere he can’t fuck anything up, he can read them a story”

“Are you sure that’s wise? “

“The kids are only seven or eight, it can be a simple story”

ASTRONOMICAL!, Rabbit.

Waddayaknow!

Marvin Bush

If the Towers were brought down with explosives how could anyone get them in. Step in Marvin Bush whose company installed the security system...

Vol. 9, No. 2021 - The American Reporter - January 20, 2003
SECRECY SURROUNDS A BUSH BROTHER’S ROLE IN 9/11 SECURITY
by Margie Burns
Washington, D.C. WASHINGTON, Jan 19, 2003—A company that provided security at New York City’s World Trade Center, Dulles International Airport in Washington, D.C., and to United Airlines between 1995 and 2001, was backed by a private Kuwaiti-American investment firm with ties to a brother of President Bush and the Bush family, according to records obtained by the American Reporter.

And so on.

Feeling a little crabby, Natalie? You can be more direct with me. No need to use cumbersome qualifiers like moving in the direction of....

Brill’ Wiley.  That Marvie Bush article is simply astounding.  I chatted with Joe Shea who runs the American Reporter and he’s a straight up guy, careful and meticulous.

You and GR seem to be really hitting yer strides, rhythm and rhyme.  Wish i had more time to watch and toss a few odd factoids in…

Cheers y’all!
Andi

Btw, re Joe Shea, that’s not to say Margie Burns went unnoticed—he hardcore detail and analytical progress of her report speaks for itself—just that Shea’s publishing it adds even further to its credibility, and ominousness. Talk about family values! The Bushes have it down, deadly so.

Gad am i incoherent now.  I also have to add that i chatted with Joe Shea once, ages ago. But i’ve watched his work since then.

O.K., I’ll be direct with you, wileywitch.

I’m just curious whether you’ve figured out your position regarding ATC/NORAD.

You characterized them as bumbling mediocre unimaginative clods, and chastised me for making excuses for them, calling them victims and understanding their dilemma in light of the mindset before 9/11.

But then you post items that make it clear that you believe there was manipulation from above.  By this are you not making the grand-daddy of all excuses for them, and are they not the grand-daddy of all victims?

Don’t you agree that in order for one to believe that bombs were deliberately detonated by agents of our own government, it simply must follow that the jets had to be part of the plot?  Wouldn’t it be be silly to think that those same agents, who were so clever to hide their scheme from all except Alex and Steven Jones, wouldn’t indeed do whatever was necessary to insure that the planes could successfully reach their targets?  After all, you seem adamant in your contention that we should have otherwise been easily able to down the jets, although thankfully you have at least finally admitted that the first was unstoppable, by all practical measures.

Are you not constrained to conclude that indeed there was manipulation of the ATC/NORAD systems and that the vast majority of the good people operating them are therefore innocent of all you inferred about them?

Therefore am I not correct to have assumed that these good people did all one could have reasonably expected of them that morning?

Natalie;

Are you not constrained to conclude that indeed there was manipulation of the ATC/NORAD systems?

When you’re responsible for air space, Natalie, you’re responsible for airspace. What part don’t you get?

Clearly there has been no investigation to determine exactly how we missed four hijacked aircraft.

Let me repeat this for the cheap seats--- FOUR HIJACKED AIRCRAFT!!

No, I am not “constrained”.  Duh!

Oh Wiley........ that Marvin Bush was going to be Rabbit’s next one......not fair, now the rabbit will have to think of another.

Natty is good isn’t she guys?

Hi Lume.  Happy New Year.

A nice round perspective piece.

Murphy’s Law

Rabbit likes to read Douglas Hermann, and this one caught his rabbit eye recently.  Still looking for the astronomical thing.  Must it be astronomicalll impossible only?  Are any other types of Astronomical allowed?

Yes i know I have given up the ghost again, it has to do with computers being changed again and all that.  All up and running again after the big power surge.

Natty that thing where you put Alex and Steven Jones together like that, maybe they are brothers?  Do you think they are related Natty?  Maybe all these pesky people who are pointing out flaws in your lovely fairy story are related, maybe rabbit to is called Jones?  Have you thought about it? You have such a lovely story too, about how nineteen Mad Muslims (half of whom are immortal), managed to bring down four planes and three skyscrapers, and kill 3000 people, with a box cutter each...Or was it nail clippers? 

Rabbit can’t remember, what did the bada bada terrorists use to commandeer the planes Natty?

Has anyone else ever thought about John Cleese demonstarting to the self defence class about how to defend oneself againt an attacker armed with a banana?

Open the cabin door, we have bananas, and we know how to use them.

Obviously that is silly.  But does open the cabin door, we have nailclippers and we know how to use them, sound any more terrifying?.........................^^.........................WILEY wabbit has got it.  It is Astronomical isn’t it?

Rabbit has waffled his way to an That’s Astronomical hasn’t he?

Who would have thought that a dozen or so mostly bozos who couldn’t fly a kite, would have been able to simultaneously take over four Passenger aircraft, armed only with Nail Clippers, and use them to collapse three skscrapers and damage the Pentagon, as well as kill about 3000 people, all in the space of one working day.

That’s Astronomical...............

Hell some of them were even out partying hard the night before.  That must have been the ones who knew they couldn’t die, you wouldn’t want to be drinking firewater and mucking around with infidel whores the night before meeting the big Allah and supposedly in line for a truckload of Virgins.  Now would you?

it’s all so clear now

The majority of the attackers, 15, were from Saudi Arabia while two came from the United Arab Emirates, one was an Egyptian and another was Lebanese.

This makes it pretty clear that we had to attack Afghanistan and Iraq.  The Saudis had boxcutters.

These are the world’s most idiotic evil geniuses. They can hijack four planes, defy the laws of physics, but the best weapons they could come up with were boxcutters? Did they throw them in the bowl before going through the metal detectors or what? Boxcutters???

I believe that toenail clippers were used in a money laundering scheme.

You waffle good.  We really have no idea if the passengers were alive during the whole ordeal, or if they were dead beforehand, or any other possible scenario. How do we know that someone didn’t have gas masks and poison gas stashed on the airplane? We don’t know.

Warning---my next post (I’ve been researching and getting some links pinned down) is about our bestess worstess friends on the whole planet.

Not Saudi Arabia.

Not Pakistan.

Thank you so much for introducing me to Nat, Rabbit.  Maybe later I can hitch a ride with you to other haunts.

Rabbitanovichz, I give you astronomical for thought experiment, da?  I go back---read more Rabbitanovichz and see if can go to Murphey’s Law link you give.

You good, Rabbitanovichz. Good Rabbitanovichz.

Bye. Bye. Tomorrow, me post make here.

Rabbit reckons gas..................There are precedents.

Have a look at KAL 007

I have a bad feeling I know what happened/is happening yet to some, of the passengers, if it is so, and the Russians may have been relatively kind in the case of KAL 007.

Rabbit cannot tell for it would open up various cans of worms, and it is purely speculation and is unlikely to be found out in our lifetime if it is so.  Unlike the KAL 007, which shows once again that big secrets are hard to keep.

By the way, that wasn’t meant as a precedent for gas in the plane, but there are a couple of stories which do go there. 

Meant that there were precedents for people supposedly dying in a plane crash but being spirited away by a government instead.

Wiley..........

On an impulse and just before logging off for the day, Rabbit popped Rabbitanovichz into Google, and voila..........nothing.  Why does not at least this one mention of such term not rate a mention.

I mention this because similar exercises a few months ago would invariably have led back to the present if only ref to such a word.

Things which make rabbits go hmmmm.................^^..................

Funny you mentioned that Rabbitarnia. Felonius Grammar was thinking about a new game called “Thomas Anyonymous”.  When anyone has a quote and doesn’t know the source, it could be credited to Thomas Anonymous, and over time, we could see how often it pops up. I put “Thomas Anonymous” in Alltheweb.com just like that. Over 850 hits.

Maybe another name. The idea is to see it spread into many various topics.

I understand the hmmmm.  It used to be that you could put unrelated words like “sandwich” and “dancing” and find a manic rant or two. Haven’t seen a manic rant in years.

About the conjecture, I can think of some examples I read a couple of years ago, but feel that some examples may be too much conjecture or impossible to substantiate.

Tonight I post.

I don’t know much about key words and how that works.

Tonight I post “astronomical”, I hope.

No one here? Good, I’ll wait til tomorrow. Oy, my aching back. Gonna watch a movie.

Rabbit was here but now is not.  By god it’s hot........36 C and half past three.  (6.30 actually but it didn’t rhyme.)

Israel’s Alex Jones?

with friends like these

<i>Next to address reporters was former U.S. Ambassador to Saudi Arabia James Akins, who for years has spoken up for Liberty survivors. Akins noted that his friend Ambassador Dwight Porter, U.S. ambassador to Lebanon in 1967, had told syndicated columnists Rowland Evans and Robert Novak, Akins, and other friends (including the Washington Report’s publisher, executive editor and this reporter), that he had seen transcripts of Israeli radio discussions during the attack. The U.S. monitors heard an Israeli pilot identify the Liberty’s American flag. His superiors ordered him to attack the ship anyway.</i>

and government officials like this

Three years ago, Condoleeza Rice, now President George W. Bush’s secretary of state and then his national security adviser, unwittingly explained in a remarkable burst of candor: “We have an Israel-centric foreign policy.”

The sad and simple truth is that most Americans, especially those in public office and even those in the presidency, have a deadly fear of being labeled anti-Semitic. No matter how well documented the charges, they will neither utter nor write anything critical of Israel, for fear it will draw that unwarranted and unwelcome charge. Former U.S. Ambassador to the U.N. George W. Ball once stated that the most powerful instrument of intimidation employed by Israel’s U.S. lobby is the “reckless charge of anti-Semitism.”

Former Congressman Paul Findley (R-IL) is the author of They Dare to Speak Out, Deliberate Deceptions and Silent No More.

It’s hard to catch a rabbit on my hours.

Natalie;

Are you not constrained to conclude that indeed there was manipulation of the ATC/NORAD systems?.....Posted by luminous beauty on Jan 5, 2006 at 5:51 PM

No, of course not.  Please explain why I would be constrained to believe this when my contention (and nearly everyone else’s in the country for that matter) is that our air defense/control systems performed well within, and in many respects exceeded, reasonable expectations that morning, given the fact that 19 “people” set out to do great deliberate harm to us via four separate attacks that were launched for all practical purposes, simultaneously.

Do you think it would be reasonable to expect law enforcement to stop four suicide bombers in four separate locations, even within a single large shopping mall, even several minutes apart?  Even today given that nearly everyone is acutely aware of the possibility?

Was it reasonable to expect that we could have stopped Timothy McVeigh from blowing up that federal building, given the fact that we live in an open free society that values personal privacy, and depends on trusting people for the most part not to deliberately set off bombs that destroy buildings that kill hundreds of people?

No, people that imagine that these crimes should be easily prevented and also believe in bombs in buildings are the ones who are constrained, even if they won’t admit it.  Of course the reason they won’t admit it is because they want to keep all their options open, a common trait of purveyors of the belief that nefarious deep dark schemes are at the root of every facet of every major event in history with the ultimate goal, of course, to benefit those evil corporations that provide us with everything we eat, live in, drive to work in, and argue on the Internet with.

Which leads to the inevitable question:

Have you made up your mind yet, luminous?

David has.

Your “conspiracy compass” test.

Natalie, when you make up your mind have you ever changed your mind ??

Since we all enjoy tests so much I would like to share this as an aside :
The Gullibility Factor Test

I have made up my mind .... 9/11 stinks.

Smelliest event ever.

... and doesn’t Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City Bombing have an odour too ?

Natalie, Natalie, Natilie. Who loves you, baby?

Once again---all the air traffic controllers needed to know was that the planes’ transponders were off, and that the aircraft that showed up on the screen was not identified and was off course. And then they needed to call NORAD---if the 9/11 investigation is correct, in that, they failed to contact NORAD.

Air Traffic controllers are trained to deal with planes that don’t have their transponders on, unresponsive pilots, and hijackings. Any air traffic controller expressing befuddlement over dealing with a possible hijacking is sorely lacking in imagination and must have missed that class.

Air traffic controllers and NORAD are designed to monitor all airspace under their jurisdiction. 

No one said that it was going to be easy. That would be like saying that war is easy.

What exactly is it about responsibility that has you baffled and so ridiculously comparing a responsibility to monitor all air traffic (in the air) with all human traffic on the ground. I’m beginning to suspect that you have no idea why your analogy is not applicable and that you aren’t as clever as I thought you were.

Just a gentle reminder, the air traffic controllers and NORAD weren’t required to “stop” the attacks of 9/11, per se; but were required to respond appropriately. By the commission’s own record, an appropriate response was not made.

David, it’s been a couple of years, now; but I did see several mentions of the Oklahoma Bombing site and the 9/11 site having the same contractor for clean-up.  Guess they’re one of those on-the-go-federal-yet private-clean-up crews.

Got a 91 percentile on that test. The 9% of me that is gullible is terribly good at it sometimes. Have to work to keep myself on my toes.

As for the disingenuous assertion that no one had ever contemplated that Islamic Terrorists would use airliners for Kamikaze attacks:

Useful here is an intelligence agency term: “Limited Hang Out”. When discovery is inevitable, or a fait accompli, the tactic is to admit to a limited less damaging “version” of the “truth” so as to diffuse the situation and divert attention - “that’s old news now”. The Clinton Administration was masterful in it’s use. When you have a press willing to further the disinformation campaign it becomes very effective.

Hmmm. Maybe the “liberal media” just made this stuff up, huh? The French and Philipinos are in on it too.  Everybody is out to get us in unimaginable ways. Poor U.S. Poor, poor U.S.---more money than all the rest of the worlds’ combined spending on the military and we still have no imagination!

Guess we’ll need to spend more money, then.

That’s right ... the Ministry of Lies ... needs more money ... and blind faith.

“Natalie, when you make up your mind have you ever changed your mind ??

Sure, David.  But I like to think I base that change on some kind of credible evidence, not a bunch of out of context quotes and analysis by a bunch of hate or profit-motivated websites and authors, non of whom so far, to the best of my knowledge, are experts in structual engineering or even deliberate imposion.  They do seem to be very good at surfing the web, though.

Since we all enjoy tests so much I would like to share this as an aside :
The Gullibility Factor Test

I noticed the test doesn’t contain that question that some would have you believe is on everyone’s mind:

Were the WTC towers deliberately blown up by agents of the U.S. Government?

I scored an 85 on the test, however, several of the questions pertained to things that are far from settled fact.  It seems to me that a valid gullibility test is one that asks about subjects that have been decided true or false beyond a reasonable doubt, not just the author’s pet areas of concern.

Interesting, though, and perhaps some good information contained in the links provided.

“… and doesn’t Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City Bombing have an odour too ?”

Yeah, it stunk too.  It stunk because some nut thought he had the authority to kill innocent people to advance a twisted agenda.  But my point is could we have stopped it?  Even after surely knowing of the contempt certain folks have for anything government, were we expecting an imminent attack by these folks?  Shouldn’t we have and done something prevent it?  How could we have been so lax?

Are you saying that we let that happen too?  The only reason I can imagine is that Clinton engineered it because he wanted to use it as an excuse to discredit right-wing talk radio, trying to imply that their belief in limited government equates with blowing it up.

Sounds at least as credible as believing that we would deliberately murder thousands of people and cripple our economy for the sake of......what again?

Oh yeah....corporations.

Natalie;

You know that I believe that the official story of the collapse of the WTC has a null probability of being true on 2nd Law of Thermodynamics and 3rd Law of Motion grounds alone.  The controlled demolition theory explains the physical evidence without contradiction.  What is it that I’m supposed to believe? That nefarious deep dark schemes are at the root of every facet of every major event in history? Sorry, I don’t believe that.  Just the ones that have nefarious schemes at the root.  Don’t you believe in nefarious schemes, Natalie?

I would find your arguments more compelling if they actually answered some of these outstanding questions in a forthright and logical manner.  Conspicuously misconstruing your opponents arguments and then ascribing nefarious motives to your audience has an even less than null likelihood of winning you any converts to your point of view.

It stunk because some nut thought he had the authority to kill innocent people to advance a twisted agenda.

This does not ring any bells for you, I take it.

Lumens has made the point well enough, but I must chime in and challenge you to form a reply (under 300 words) that doesn’t rest on reality being this or that based on emotion or what you would prefer to believe, or what you would prefer to proffer whether you believe it or not. 

Sounds at least as credible as believing that we would deliberately murder thousands of people and cripple our economy for the sake of......what again?

Halliburton, Bechtel, Kellogg, Brown & Root, the Carlisle Group, General Dynamics…

Oh but they would never put their profits above the emotions of U.S. citizens, right? They make weapons to enhance the quality of life and to instill democracy to thousands of people who aren’t strong enought to kill themselves for it.

If, by your logic, 9/11 destroyed our economy, then how do we have billions to wage war against Afghanistan and Iraq---countries that have nothing to do with the alleged terrorists who were primarily Saudis--- and how can we justify levelling Iraqi cities for their own good.

Again---under 300 words---and here’s a fun challenge---take out the adjectives and qualifiers. Someone might mistake them for weasel words.

So luminous, I think that’s a yes, you DO believe in bombs in buildings.  I knew ya did, just took a little coaxing.  Last time I remember, you said “I don’t necessarily buy into these theories”, or something very close to that.

Sorry if I missed something you said after that.

Aside from a strange stance taken by a BYU physics professor who is reluctant to have his interpretations of the 2nd law of thermodynamics and 3rd law of motion scrutinized by anyone except a pro-Marxist economics publication, there is very little that has been offered to contradict the theory put forth by dozens and dozens of folks, who also know something of these laws, stating that indeed the collapses were caused by a combination of huge impacts and their resulting damage and fires.

Yes I do believe in nefarious schemes.  I believe (I know) there are schemes to direct unsuspecting people to websites to click on banner ads to make people money.  I don’t believe anyone would be silly enough to think they could pull something like what has been suggested here off without being caught.  If you’re a discerning person, as you say, when it comes to nefarious schemes, I suggest you look elsewhere.  At least quit clicking on those ads.  ;-)

I have tried many times to forthrightly, and usually without insults, to answer in some detail questions that have been raised.  It does absolutely no good.  But to accuse me of ascribing nefarious motives to people is most certainly the height of hypocrisy, given all the same that has been directed at me, unprovoked except by I suspect valid points I’ve raised, mostly on other threads, that conflict with one’s comfort zones.  (not necessarily talking about you personally here, although you have been pretty free with the accusations as well, albeit more subtle)

I don’t expect to win any converts here among those who comment.  I would hope to keep some bombs-in-buildings novice lurker from falsely thinking the view presented here is unanimous or even sensible.  I join with the authors of the subject article in that endeavor, in a rare coincidence of opinion.  What are the odds?  ASTRONOMICAL

Natalie;

Professor Jones published his hypothesis, it is out there to read and criticize by anybody.  Show me an analytical rebuttal to his hypothesis and then maybe we can discuss it. 

By the way, the laws of physics are not particularly open to interpretation.

I don’t apologize for saying you are ignorant.  You are ignorant.

wileywitch wrote earlier:

“Air Traffic controllers are trained to deal with planes that don’t have their transponders on, unresponsive pilots, and hijackings. Any air traffic controller expressing befuddlement over dealing with a possible hijacking is sorely lacking in imagination and must have missed that class.  Air traffic controllers and NORAD are designed to monitor all airspace under their jurisdiction.  No one said that it was going to be easy.”

Now we’re swinging back into the incompetence zone.  You’re giving me motion sickness. 

“Just a gentle reminder, the air traffic controllers and NORAD weren’t required to “stop” the attacks of 9/11, per se; but were required to respond appropriately. By the commission’s own record, an appropriate response was not made.”

They weren’t required to “stop” the attacks?  A startling admission on your part, much to my relief.  I guess by appropriately you mean observing the airliners crashing into their targets.  Those people really should be held accountable for missing that spectacle and not getting pictures.

Actually, the commission didn’t find much fault with the controllers or NORAD in it’s final report:

Clarifying the Record

The defense of U.S.airspace on 9/11 was not conducted in accord with preexisting training and protocols.  It was improvised by civilians who had never handled a hijacked aircraft that attempted to disappear, and by a military unprepared for the transformation of commercial aircraft into weapons of mass destruction.  As it turned out, the NEADS air defenders had nine minutes’ notice on the first hijacked plane, no advance notice on the second, no advance notice on the third, and no advance notice on the fourth. We do not believe that the true picture of that morning reflects discredit on the operational personnel at NEADS or FAA facilities.  NEADS commanders and officers actively sought out information, and made the best judgments they could on the basis of what they knew.  Individual FAA controllers, facility managers, and Command Center managers thought outside the box in recommending a nationwide alert, in ground-stopping local traffic, and, ultimately, in deciding to land all aircraft and executing that unprecedented order flawlessly.

So, what I hear you saying is that we failed to prevent the attack for emotional reasons, and because of a lack of imagination, and/or from an inability to believe that aircraft were being hijacked.

Glad we’re on the same page.

And, oh yeah, glad it’s “official”.

I just did a google search on Jones, thinking there must be an avalanche of contrarian kerfuffle.  Haven’t found anything yet.  On the fifth page, though I did find this site though; Physics 911 Public Site .  Interesting....

Natalie;
Professor Jones published his hypothesis, it is out there to read and criticize by anybody.  Show me an analytical rebuttal to his hypothesis and then maybe we can discuss it.

They are preparing to rebut as soon as they quit laughing.  Jones’s paper is a political statement, not a scientific one.  I was already familiar with most of it before reading it, just by surfing the web, which is what he appears to have mainly done.  That is why it won’t be accepted by any genuine scientific or engineering journal or publication.  (I predict, hoping I am right!)

By the way, the laws of physics are not particularly open to interpretation.

My mistake, I should have said “the method in which he chooses to apply those laws”. 

I don’t apologize for saying you are ignorant.  You are ignorant.

Thank you, that’s quite charitable, considering some of the things I’ve been called on these forums.  You’re a gentleman and a scholar.

Steven who?

“So, what I hear you saying is that we failed to prevent the attack for emotional reasons, and because of a lack of imagination, and/or from an inability to believe that aircraft were being hijacked.  Glad we’re on the same page.”

Maybe in the same book, but certainly not on the same page.  Emotion played a part as always in everything, but it’s not the “reason” for anything.  If anything, there was imagination above and beyond protocol as stated in the report.  There was no “dis-belief” that aircraft were being hijacked, only lack of knowledge of the intent of the hijackers.

And you accuse me of using weasel words?  LOL

What’s this talk about “preventing the attacks”?  Just a few posts up you stated: the air traffic controllers and NORAD weren’t required to “stop” the attacks of 9/11

Please......my motion sickness.

They are laughing, are they?  Hardy-Har-Har. 

The physical conditions of the phenomenon under observation determine the application of the laws of physics, not the person applying them.  You are ignorant squared.

There was a very good reason why the Federal government would have wanted the Murrah building event.

It is always amusing when Natty tries to ask a question she thinks is rhetoric and yet which has an answer totally out of order with what she tries to imply.

Here is some questions about Oklahoma.

Lots of information

Yes it stinks and always did.  Especially the usual sign of a False flag op, NOBODY CLAIMED RESPONSIBILITY.

Rabbit is still looking for a reference which refers to the Oklahoma State government having been prepared to declare itself free of the federal government as the Federal government was no longer acting legally. Something like that, OKlahoma was supposedly all set to break out of the union or something.  One hell of a reason as it happens.

Perhaps later.

Natty Rabbit is tired of your constant harping on about alternative news sites as if that diuscounts anything.  As a governmnet shill you probably use a computer which doesn’t allow direct access to many sites, you probably just get an officicial shill summary in place of the actual site on many of our sources.  If you actually had read any of these sources you might notice how stupid you seem everytime you refer to them as conspiracy or innacurate.  You see, as you have been told before, they may speculate on the news, but they don’t make it up.  The claim that facts are invented by alternative media sites is laughable to anybody who reads them.  These sites print and link to stories from the MSM.  The difference being only that they are not hidden away on page ten or printed without context.

You are a shill as we know, and your job is to stop debate about such issues and limit the damage done by honest and factual reporting.  It is therefore understandable that you hate the sites.  Problem for you deary.

All these sites rely on pretty much the same facts, because these are well established.  They have obtained the facts, in many cases from the MSM.  The conclusions drawn upon these facts are what bothers you, and that the facts lead only to such conclusions when presented in context is enough for you to claim the facts are false.  Trouble is they are not, and everytime you try to claim they are, you have been crushed like a cockroach for your attempted disinformation.

Here is a collection of facts, from the MSM.  They are listed without links to sources here, if you want go to the original you can check them.

Summary of Coverup facts.

OK read the link.  It is too big to post here.  It is all Mainstream Media reports, and not a bit of it supports the official Lies.

By the way Natalie, Rabbit has before forbidden you to claim a majority of people in even the USA believe the official lies.  He has posted polls which show that the majority don’t believe at all.  Forgetting are we?

Now just accept you are the minority and your side is losing day by day.  Or don’t.  I guess ignoring defeat is an American speciality.

Nat;

Jones’s paper is a political statement, not a scientific one.

Really?  No science at all?  Fooled me.  But you are the great scientific expert.  Explain to me the politics of the Laws of Conservation of Momentum, please.

Oh more of your forgetfullness Natty.

There have been numerous engineers and demolition experts qutoed among the refutation oif the official lie.  Do you think nobody here knows you have been through all this before and have lost already?

As for basing your opinions on facts....that is hilarious.

The facts are complete anathema to the official conspiracy theory.  They discount much of it from being possible.  You base you opinion upon the government line and have never strayed from it by one millimeter, just like a shill would.  YET the government lie is almost all speculation, since they withhold the crucial evidence which would prove the truth.

The official lie was arrived at by ignoring almost all the evidence and masses of witness testimony and by never allowing much of the evidence like recordings and video footage to be seen by anybody.  That stinks a bit sweety.

There are NO facts which support the official lie, four years later there are NO facts which support the official lie, without also being able to be even better accou8nted for with alternative theries.

As Luminous Beauty says

“The controlled demolition theory explains the physical evidence without contradiction.”

That is what is does love.  It is a valid working theory.  You have not and cannot disprove it.

Virtually the whole world has made clear that they don’t accept the official lies, and honestly how can they?  The facts as they are render the official fantasy story a complete impossibility.

Tell us again how we are all crazy, go on funny Shill.

Do you ever get any reward for your loyalty Shill?  Have they given you the special vaccination yet?  You are going to need it babe.  Something as unhealthy as you is sure to be a sucker for a nasty new virus.

O.K., Natalie, we’ll clear this up, one thing at a time.

1. Radar signals are beamed into the sky.

Let me know when this sinks in. In fact, why don’ t you rephrase it so that I can see that you truly understand it before we go to the next step.

I’m rooting for you.

The Gullibility Test is cool.  The clever Rabbit got 100%

As for Natty claiming the answers were questuionable in some cases, she obviously hasn’t read the answers and why.  They were all easily proven contentions.  You are just struggling with your gullibity Natty and proving how you can’t change your opinions about anything.  Just like with other tests you’ve taken which showed things which you didn’t like, you automatically write something off if it disagrees with your delusions.

Hi Wiley, you caught a rabbit...................^^....................

Trying to get Natty to learn anything scientific is hopeless. Rabbit tried to teach her about gravity and Newtons laws styep by step, with helpful experimenst she could try at home, but she flat refused to entertain the idea learning about such “complex” science.

Still you’d think Natty had a headstart on understanding Radar, being a Bat and all.

Well, she did keep her last post to me under 300 words, so maybe she’s trying. 

Unlike air traffic control, trying counts in cyberspace and failure is of little consequence.

Catching rabbits is fun, yes?

Heidi Ho, Lumens! It makes more sense to ask someone to prove that the fall was not a demolition, does it not? Who are you going to believe----the 9/11 commission, or your lying eyes?

Oh, Rabbit and Lumens, what thinks yuens about the Israeli mossad angle?

(Don’t want to stanch the flow of thought, here.)

Yes Wiley, Natty is very trying.

She is quite fun though isn’t she?  If she would just stop the broken record lines.  She has been through it all, and as you can see she still pretends she is living in the real world and dealing with those of us she claims are in la la land. 

Delightful the irony when the only people who have ever taken her seriously, and complimented her on her achievements, is Jay Bird.  Once or twice a moron like Jay will say how right and clever she is, and she probably feels quite encouraged by that.  She doesn’t realise that morons don’t count.

Until Sept. 11, 2001, NORAD conducted four major exercises a year. Most included a hijack scenario, but not all of those involved planes as weapons. Since the attacks, NORAD has conducted more than 100 exercises, all with mock hijackings.

source of confusion

Israeli Mossad angle is THE angle I reckon.  First they are the first contenders just from the old “WHO GAINS?” query.

FBI evidence of Mossad involvement in September 11 attacks on the U.S.?!

source: Al Jazeera Jan 6/2006

more....

Behind closed doors, Israeli authorities were doing all what they can to get the men released and the FBI probe closed. Israeli lawmakers contacted their “friends” in the U.S. Congress, and the Mayor of Jerusalem, Ehud Ohmert personally called the New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani and asked him to intervene.

But after 9/11, things changed dramatically. Sympathy for the Palestinians vanished. The Arabs were universally portrayed as the “bad guys.” Israeli Prime Minister ARIEL SHARON reportedly said: “Now we and the Americans are in the same fight.”
.........
Blaming the horrible attacks on the Arabs was the best thing that has even happened to Israel. Now Washington, once again, solidly stands in the pro-Israeli camp, and “Palestinians be damned!”

Now Rabbit guesses the first thing the Bat will say, is that it is from al-jazeera.  Rabbit hopes she does, because he will enjoy showing the same story in the US MSM, where it is.

This will be useful to show that al-Jazeera is reliable what’s more.  Killing two bats with one stone.  Three if one considers the further hit to her credibility the Natty will thus earn.

Come on Natty, never mind it is a trap, jump into it like you always do. 

OOOH they are using al-Jazeera as a source..............ooh you can get them now..........

(Seriously guys, you can even warn the Natty what is coming and she still walks right in, still a little flavouring goes a long way, watch this.)

Al-Jazeera seems to be a very reliable and honest source of news thinks Rabbit, who scored 100% on the Gullibility test.  Come on miss 85% show us your stuff.

Damn! Well, there is the address, though it comes not with the tiny url thrill.

Don’t jump in Nat. You’re still on 1.

I can see how someone might be confused by such reports that ever so conveniently fail to mention that not only a mere hijacking, but a yet more mere plane accidentally flying off course is enough cause to scramble jet fighters.

What a plane does after being hijacked probably matters to NORAD about as much as a nuclear warhead detonating---they’d draw a little box around clusters of data to keep it from burning “ghosts” into the screen. Once a hijacked aircraft reaches its target, NORAD is pretty useless.

Of course, I don’t have to tell you two shiny ones that all the “imagining” stuff is a red herring. The question is not whether or not the air traffic controllers and folks at NORAD could “imagine” jets used as aircrafts.

The question is why were games conflated with real-time imagery causing confusion about whether blips were real-time or part of the exercise and delaying reports?

And why were the nearest fighter jets not scrambled as soon as the air traffic controllers reported?

And what are the odds? Huh? ASTRONOMICAL!

Jay complimented Tina1, too.  He’s apparently as indiscriminate with his praise as he is petrified in his own thought. She’s one creepy little piece of work. Her little lol’s are weird. I think she’s drunk.

Sep 1999: A US intelligence report states bin Laden and Al-Qaeda terrorists could crash an aircraft into the Pentagon. The Bush administration claims not to have heard of this report until May 2002, though it was widely shared within the government. [CNN, 5/18/02, AP, 5/18/02, Guardian, 5/19/02]

Nov 1999: The head of Australia’s security services admits the Echelon global surveillance system exists. The US still denies it exists. BBC describes Echelon’s power as “astounding.” Every international telephone call, fax, e-mail, or radio transmission can be listened to by powerful computers capable of voice recognition. They home in on key words, or patterns of messages. [BBC, 11/3/99]

Jan 2000:  George Bush Sr. meets with the bin Laden family on behalf of the Carlyle Group. He also met with them in 1998. Bush’s chief of staff could not remember that this meeting took place until shown a thank you note confirming the meeting. [Wall Street Journal, 9/27/01, Guardian, 10/31/01]

Summer 2000: A secret military operation named Able Danger identifies four future 9/11 hijackers, including lead hijacker Mohamed Atta, as a potential threat and members of Al Qaeda. Yet none of this is mentioned later in the 9/11 Commissions’ final report. When questioned, the 9/11 commission’s chief spokesman initially says that staff members briefed about Able Danger did not remember hearing anything about Atta. Days later, however, after provided detailed information, he says the uniformed officer who briefed two staff members had indeed mentioned Atta. [New York Times, 8/11/05]

Sep 2000: The think-tank Project for the New American Century (PNAC) writes a blueprint for the creation of a global “Pax Americana.” Written for the Bush team before the 2000 election, the report Rebuilding America’s Defenses is a plan for maintaining global US preeminence and shaping the international security order in line with American principles and interests. The plan shows Bush intends to take control of the Persian Gulf whether or not Saddam Hussein is in power. [Sunday Herald, 9/7/02 , read report]

2000 – 2001: The military conducts exercises simulating what the White House says was unimaginable at the time: hijacked airliners used as weapons to crash into targets and cause mass casualties. One imagined target is the WTC. [USA Today, 4/19/04] Another is the Pentagon. [Military District of Washington (Army website), 11/3/00]

Jan 2001: A flight school alerts the FAA. Hijacker Hani Hanjour lacks English and flying skills needed for his commercial pilot’s license. An FAA official then sits next to him in class. The official offers a translator to help him pass, but the flight school points out this is against the rules. [AP, 5/10/02]

Jan 2001: After the elections, US intelligence agencies are told to “back off” investigating the bin Ladens and Saudi royals. There have always been constraints on investigating Saudis. [BBC, 11/6/01]

Spring 2001: Military and government documents are released that seek to legitimize the use of US military force in the pursuit of oil. One article advocates presidential subterfuge in the promotion of conflict and “explicitly urge[s] painting over the US’s actual reasons for warfare as a necessity for mobilizing public support for a conflict.” [Sydney Morning Herald, 12/26/02]

May 2001: US security chiefs reject Sudan’s offer to turn over voluminous files about bin Laden and al-Qaeda. Sudan has made this offer repeatedly since 1995. [Guardian, 9/30/01]

May 2001: Secretary of State Powell gives $43 million in aid to the Taliban government. [Los Angeles Times, 5/22/01] This follows $113 million given by the US in 2000. [State Dept. Fact Sheet, 12/11/01]

May 2001: The US introduces the “Visa Express” program allowing any Saudi Arabian to obtain visas through their travel agent instead of appearing at a consulate in person. [US News and World Report, 12/12/01] Five hijackers use Visa Express over the next month to enter the US. [Congressional Intelligence Committee, 9/20/02, (Witness Hill)]

May-Aug 2001: A number of the 911 hijackers make at least six trips to Las Vegas. These “fundamentalist” Muslims drink alcohol, frequent strip clubs, and smoke hashish. Some even have strippers perform lap dances for them. [San Francisco Chronicle, 10/4/01, Newsweek, 10/15/01]

June 2001: German intelligence warns the CIA, Britain’s MI6, and Israel’s Mossad that Middle Eastern terrorists are training for hijackings and targeting US and Israeli symbols. [Fox News, 5/17/02]

July 4-14, 2001: Bin Laden reportedly receives kidney treatment from Canadian-trained Dr. Callaway at the American Hospital in Dubai. Telephoned several times, the doctor declines to answer questions. During his stay, bin Laden allegedly is visited by one or two CIA officers. [Guardian, 11/1/01, Sydney Morning Herald, 10/31/01, London Times 11/1/01, UPI, 11/1/01]

July 10, 2001: A Phoenix FBI agent sends a memorandum warning about Middle Eastern men taking flight lessons. He suspects bin Laden’s followers and recommends a national program to check visas of suspicious flight-school students. The memo is sent to two FBI counter-terrorism offices, but no action is taken. [New York Times, 5/21/02] Vice President Cheney says in May 2002 that he opposes releasing this memo to congressional leaders or to the media and public. [CNN, 5/20/02]

July 24, 2001: Larry Silverstein’s $3.2 billion 99-year lease of the WTC is finalized. Silverstein hopes to win $7 billion in insurance from the 911 destruction of the WTC towers. [New York Times, 02/16/03, Newsday, 09/25/02]

July 26, 2001: Attorney General Ashcroft stops flying commercial airlines due to a threat assessment. [CBS, 7/26/01] He later walks out of his office rather than answer questions about this. [AP, 5/16/02]

Late July 2001: The US and UN ignore warnings from the Taliban foreign minister that bin Laden is planning an imminent huge attack on US soil. The FBI and CIA also fail to take seriously warnings that Islamic fundamentalists have enrolled in flight schools across the US. [Independent, 9/7/02]

Summer 2001: Intelligence officials know that al Qaeda both hopes to use planes as weapons and seeks to strike a violent blow within the US, despite government claims following 911 that the World Trade Center and Pentagon attacks came “like bolts from the blue.” [Wall Street Journal, 09/19/02]

Summer 2001: Russian President Putin later says publicly that he ordered his intelligence agencies to alert the US of suicide pilots training for attacks on US targets. [Fox, 5/17/02]

Aug 5-11, 2001: Israel warns US of an imminent Al Qaeda attack. [Fox News, 5/17/02]

Aug 6, 2001: President Bush is warned by US intelligence that bin Laden might be planning to hijack commercial airliners. The White House waits eight months after 911 to reveal this fact. [New York Times, 5/16/02] Titled “Bin Ladin Determined To Strike in US,” the intelligence briefing specifically mentions the World Trade Center. Yet Bush later states the briefing “said nothing about an attack on America.” [Washington Post, 4/12/04, White House, 4/11/04, Intelligence Briefing, 8/6/01]

Aug 22, 2001: Top counter-terrorism expert John O’Neill quits the FBI due to repeated obstruction of his al-Qaeda investigations and a power play against him. He was the government’s “most committed tracker of bin Laden and al-Qaeda.” The next day he starts a new job as head of security at the WTC. He is killed weeks later in the World Trade Center during the 911 attack. [New Yorker, 1/14/02]

Aug 24, 2001: Frustrated with lack of response from FBI headquarters about detained suspect Moussaoui, the Minnesota FBI begins working with the CIA. The CIA sends alerts calling him a “suspect 747 airline suicide hijacker.” Three days later an FBI Minnesota supervisor says he is trying keep Moussaoui from “taking control of a plane and fly it into the WTC.” [Senate Intelligence Committee (Hill #2), 10/17/02] FBI headquarters chastises Minnesota FBI for notifying the CIA. [Time, 5/21/02] FBI Director Mueller will later say “there was nothing the agency could have done to anticipate and prevent the [911] attacks.” [Senate Intelligence Committee (Witness Breitweiser), 9/18/02]

Sep 10, 2001: A particularly urgent warning may have been received the night before the attacks, causing some top Pentagon brass to cancel a trip. “Why that same information was not available to the 266 people who died aboard the four hijacked commercial aircraft may become a hot topic on the Hill.” [Newsweek, 9/13/01] “A group of top Pentagon officials suddenly canceled travel plans for the next morning, apparently because of security concerns.” [Newsweek, 9/24/01, fifth paragraph from end]

Sep 10, 2001: Former president Bush is with a brother of Osama bin Laden at a Carlyle business conference. The conference is interrupted the next day by the attacks. [Washington Post, 3/16/03]

Sep 10, 2001: Defense Secretary Rumsfeld announces that by some estimates the Department of Defense “cannot track $2.3 trillion in transactions.” CBS later calculates that 25% of the yearly defense budget is unaccounted for. A defense analyst says, “The books are cooked routinely year after year.” [DOD, 9/10/01, CBS, 1/29/02] This announcement was buried by the next day’s news of 911.

Sep 11, 2001: Warren Buffett, the second richest man on Earth [BBC, 6/22/01], schedules a charity event inside Offutt Air Force Base in Nebraska. A small group of business leaders attend, including at least one who would otherwise have died in the WTC. [SF Business Times, 2/1/02] Bush flies to this same base that day, where there is an underground command center. [CNN, 9/12/01, CBS, 911/02]

Sep 11, 2001: Recovery experts extract data from 32 WTC computer drives revealing a surge in financial transactions just before the attacks. Illegal transfers of over $100 million may have been made through some WTC computer systems immediately before and during the disaster. [Reuters, 12/18/01, CNN, 12/20/01]

Sep 11, 2001: In what the government describes as a bizarre coincidence, a US intelligence agency (the National Reconnaissance Office or NRO) was all set for an exercise at 9 AM on September 11th in which an aircraft would crash into one of its buildings near Washington, DC. [AP, 8/22/02]

Sept 11, 2001: The entire continental United States is defended by only seven air bases and 14 military jets. [CNN, 9/9/03, Newsday, 9/23/01]

These are all Facts reported in the Mainstream Media.  They are among the sorts of facts taken into account by real people trying to get to the truth of what happened.  The government is consistent at every level in trying to hamper any truth getting out as can be seen clearly by the number of outright lies about what had gone on or what was known.

Every claim made by this admin has proven to be false, and the 911 details are certainly no exception.

Of course it couldn’t happen without a complicit media.  they are not exonerated because they have individually from time to time printed stories which show the government lies, because in each case they avoided looking at the obvious fact that they lied, happy just to quietly let the truth pass without comment or wider dissemination.

Luckily, the Internet has given people a chance to look at news and form their own opinions through research rather than relying on the self appointed gatekeeper media from feeding them their opinions directly.

The pancaking of the Twin Towers was not inexpicable....airplanes filled with fuel for a transcontinental flight were smashed into the brittle outter shell of the towers, and ignited every flammable thing on 2 or 3 floors of the tower. The explosion, and cascading of fuel and consequent fire that occured in the center of the building overwhelmed the internal suspension steel girder system, weakening its strength ...the weight of the upper floors falling resulted in the absolute demolition of the building.

The tower hit second fell first, simply because it was compromised at a lower level, and could not support the weight of the upper floors.

You only have to check an engineers analysis of the destruction of these buildings to understand how the toppling happened…

what scares me is the idea that Bin Laden and his highly educated crew anticipated this destruction...how well it was planned, how the outcome, probably, exceeded their own expectations.

Which brings me to the question of ‘could these flights have been intercepted before contact’?

Possibly...if we had air crews flyiing over the Eastern seaboard when the flights took off, and then, oddly, deviated from the flight path.

Maybe there could have been a better reaction time if that were the case.

I think this operation was very well planned. I think they realized that there was a window of opportunity, and it was choreographed well, and despite any attempt there might have been at interception the die was cast when the terrorists took over the flights and turned the craft around.

I find it implausible to suggest that the ‘military-industrial complex’ ( remember those guys?) allowed or created this scenario to create a world of suspicion, ignorant patriotism, and aggression to accomplish the Manifest Destiny schemes of the Bush/Cheney Texas Oil Man Cartel.

I think Bin Laden was smart enough, had the resources, and hated us enough to hit us where it hurt......

and that we’re a bunch of Beetle Bailey’s .

How about we talk about the forces that make us so fucking ignorant, trusting, and oblivious?

There’s the conspiracy, eh?

...jets used as MISSILES…

Sorry it’s long folks, but Rabbit feels the wealth of information, credited to the MSM like this, is too good not to be included in a thread started on the back of a pathetic hit piece based on innuendos of lack of backing for alternative opinions about 911. 

Some more now.

Come on Muwakkil, how about you have a shot at knocking some of the massive amount of evidence of government complicity and knowledge?  You made the initial spurious attack on supposedly deluded fools, maybe you can explain how the official lie can exist next to the facts which are printed in the MSM alone?  The FACT is that the government has been lying, about everything for which the facts have become known.  The only things we can’t PROVE they are lying about, can be proven one way or another just by releasing all the evidence they have withheld even from the 911 commission. 

Now why won’t they do that do you suppose?

September 11, 2001—Timeline for the Day of the Attacks

Department of Defense (6/1/01) and FAA (7/12/01) procedure: In the event of a hijacking, the FAA hijack coordinator on duty at Washington headquarters requests the military to provide escort aircraft. Normally, NORAD escort aircraft take the required action. The FAA notifies the National Military Command Center by the most expeditious means. [DOD/, 6/1/01, FAA, 7/12/01, FAA 7/12/01]

If NORAD (North American Aerospace Defense Command) hears of any difficulties in the skies, they begin the work to scramble jet fighters [take off and intercept aircraft that are off course]. Between Sep 2000 and June 2001 fighters were scrambled 67 times. [AP, 8/12/02] When the Lear jet of golfer Payne Stewart didn’t respond in 1999, F-16 interceptors were quickly dispatched. According to an Air Force timeline, a series of military planes provided an emergency escort to Payne’s stricken Lear about 20 minutes after ground controllers lost contact with his plane.[Dallas Morning News, 10/26/99]

8:20 AM (approx.): Air traffic controllers suspect Flight 11 has been hijacked. [NY Times, 9/15/01]

8:40 AM: NORAD is notified of hijacking. [NY Times, 10/16/01, 8:38 AM Washington Post, 9/15/01]

8:46 AM: Flight 11 crashes into the WTC (World Trade Center) north tower. [approximately 26 minutes after controllers lost contact][New York Times, 9/12/01]

8:46 AM: Bush later states, “I was sitting outside the classroom and I saw an airplane hit the tower. The TV was on.” [CNN, 12/4/01] “When we walked into the classroom, I had seen this plane fly into the first building.” [White House, 1/5/02] There was no live coverage of the first crash on TV.

8:52 AM: Two F-15s take off from Otis Air Force Base. [Washington Post, 9/15/01] They go after Flight 175. Major General Paul Weaver, director of the Air National Guard, states “the pilots flew like a scalded ape, topping 500 mph but were unable to catch up to the airliner. We had a nine-minute window, and in excess of 100 miles to intercept 175,’’ he said. ‘’There was just literally no way.’’ [Dallas Morning News, 9/15/01] F-15’s fly at up to 2.5 times the speed of sound [1875 mph or 30+ miles a minute or 270+ miles in nine minutes] and are designed for low-altitude, high-speed, precision attacks. [BBC]

8:56 AM: By this time, it is evident that Flight 77 is lost. The FAA, already in contact with the Pentagon about the two hijackings out of Boston, reportedly doesn’t notify NORAD of this until 9:24, 28 minutes later. [see 9:10 AM for comparison, New York Times, 10/16/01]

9:03 AM: Flight 175 crashes into the south WTC tower. [23 minutes after NORAD notified, 43 minutes after air traffic control lost contact with pilots][New York Times, 9/12/01, CNN, 9/12/01]

9:10 AM: Major General Paul Weaver states Flight 77 came back on the (radar) scope at 9:10 in West Virginia. [Dallas Morning News, 9/15/01] Another report states the military was notified of Flight 77 several minutes after 9:03. [Washington Post, 9/15/01]

9:24 AM [? – see above]: The FAA, who 28 minutes earlier had discovered Flight 77 off course and heading east over West Virginia, reportedly notifies NORAD. A Pentagon spokesman says, “The Pentagon was simply not aware that this aircraft was coming our way.” [Newsday, 9/23/01, New York Times, 10/16/01] Yet since the first crash, military officials in a Pentagon command center were urgently talking to law enforcement and air traffic control officials about what to do. [New York Times, 9/15/01]

9:28 AM: Air traffic control learns that Flight 93 has been hijacked. [MSNBC, 7/30/02]

9:38 AM: Flight 77 crashes into the Pentagon. [42 minutes or more after contact was lost, one hour after NORAD notification of first hijacking][New York Times, 10/16/01, 9:43 CNN, 9/12/01]

9:59 AM: The south tower of the World Trade Center collapses. [New York Times, 9/12/01]

10:10 AM: Flight 93 crashes in Pennsylvania. [42 minutes after contact was lost][CNN, 9/12/02]

10:28 AM: The World Trade Center north tower collapses. [CNN, 9/12/01, NY Times, 9/12/01]

5:20 PM: Building 7 of the World Trade Center collapses. [CNN, 9/12/01]

Sep 11, 2001: Did the Air Force send up planes after the hijacked aircraft? The Air Force won’t say. It says they keep about 20 F-15 and F-16 fighters on duty with Air National Guards along the nation’s coastline, ready to inspect unknown aircraft entering U.S. airspace. “We can scramble and be airborne in a matter of minutes,” said an Air Force spokesperson. Some airline pilots are wondering whether the FAA did enough to try to prevent the crashes. [Wall Street Journal, 09/14/01]

Sep 11, 2001: Six air traffic controllers who dealt with two of the hijacked airliners make a tape recording describing the events, but the tape is later destroyed by a supervisor without anyone making a transcript or even listening to it. [Washington Post, 5/6/04, New York Times, 5/6/04]

Sep 11, 2001: Hours after the attacks, a “shadow government” is formed. Key congressional leaders say they didn’t know President Bush had established this government-in-waiting. Some Congressmen state the administration should have conferred about its plans. [CBS, 3/2/02, Washington Post, 3/2/02]

Sep 11, 2001: A National Public Radio correspondent states: “I spoke with Congressman Ike Skelton who said that just recently the director of the CIA warned that there could be an attack – an imminent attack – on the United States of this nature. So this is not entirely unexpected.” [NPR, 911/01]

Sep 12, 2001: Senator Orrin Hatch says the US was monitoring bin Laden supporters and overheard them discussing the attack. [AP, 9/12/01] Why has the media not explored the fact that the US could monitor private communications of al-Qaeda on 911?

Sep 13-19, 2001: Members of bin Laden’s family are driven or flown under FBI supervision to a secret assembly point in Texas and then to Washington, where they leave the country on a private plane when airports reopen three days after the attacks. [New York Times, 9/30/01][Boston Globe, 9/20/01]

Sep 14, 2001: The two black boxes for Flight 77 are found. [PBS, 9/14/01] FBI Director Robert Mueller later says Flight 77’s data recorder provides altitude, speed, headings and other information, but the voice recorder contains “nothing useful.” [CBS, 2/23/02]

Sep 15-16, 2001: Several 911 hijackers, including leader Mohamed Atta, may have trained at secure US military installations. [Newsweek, 9/15/01, New York Times, 9/15/01, Washington Post, 9/16/01]

Sep 19, 2001: The FBI claims that there may have been six hijacking teams on the morning of 911. [New York Times, 9/19/01, CBS, 9/14/01] Authorities have identified teams that total as many as 50 infiltrators who supported or carried out the strikes. About 40 of the men have been accounted for. [Los Angeles Times, 9/13/01] Yet only one person, Moussaoui, is later charged.

Sept 23, 2001: Several of the alleged 9/11 hijackers are still alive. Pilot Waleed Al Shehri is one of the men the FBI said deliberately crashed a plane into the WTC. He is protesting his innocence from Morocco. His photograph was released, and he acknowledges that he is indeed the Waleed Al Shehri whom FBI has named. But, he says, he left the US last year, and became a pilot with Saudi Arabian airlines. [BBC, 9/23/01]

Oct 2, 2001: The Patriot Act is introduced in Congress. The next day, Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Patrick Leahy (D) accuses the Bush administration of reneging on an agreement on this anti-terrorist bill. [Washington Post, 10/4/01] Anthrax letters are sent to Leahy and Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle (D) on October 9. [CNN, 11/18/01]

Oct 10-11, 2001: After consulting with the FBI and CDC, Iowa State University in Ames destroys anthrax spores collected over seven decades. On Oct 25, the White House homeland security director confirms publicly that the tainted letters contained the Ames strain. [New York Times, 11/9/01]

Nov 12, 2001—Mar 25, 2002: 13 renowned microbiologists mysteriously die over the span of less than five months. All but one or two are killed or murdered under unusual circumstances. Some are world leaders in developing weapons-grade biological plagues. Others are the best in figuring out how to stop millions from dying because of biological weapons. Still others are experts in the theory of bioterrorism. [Globe and Mail, 5/4/02, New York Times 08/11/02] Nov 12: Benito Que, 52, an expert in infectious diseases—killed in carjacking, later deemed possible stroke. [Globe and Mail, 5/4/02] Nov. 16: Don Wiley, 57, one of the world’s leading researchers of deadly viruses—body found in Mississippi River. [CNN, 12/22/01] Nov 21: Dr. Vladimir Pasechnik, 64, an expert in adapting germs and viruses for military use—stroke. [New York Times, 11/23/01] Dec 10: Dr. Robert Schwartz, 57, a leading researcher on DNA sequencing analysis—slain at home. [Washington Post, 12/12/01] Dec 14: Nguyen Van Set, 44, his research organization had just come to fame for discovering a virus which can be modified to affect smallpox—dies in an airlock in his lab. [Sydney Morning Herald, 12/12/01] Jan 2002: Ivan Glebov (bandit attack) and Alexi Brushlinski (killed in Moscow), both world-renowned members of the Russian Academy of Science. [Pravda, 2/9/02] Feb 9: Victor Korshunov, 56, head of the microbiology sub-faculty at the Russian State Medical University—killed by cranial injury. [Pravda, 2/9/02] Feb 11: Ian Langford, 40, one of Europe’s leading experts on environmental risk—murdered in home. [London Times, 2/13/02] Feb 28 (2): Tanya Holzmayer, 46, helped create drugs that interfere with replication of the virus that causes AIDS, and Guyang Huang, 38, a brilliant scholar highly regarded in genetics—murder/suicide. [San Jose Mercury News, 2/28/02] Mar 24: David Wynn-Williams, 55, an astrobiologist with NASA Ames Research Center—killed while jogging. [London Times, 3/27/02] Mar 25: Steven Mostow, 63, an expert on the threat of bioterrorism—private plane crash. [KUSA TV/NBC, 3/26/02]

Dec 2001: The US engineers the rise to power of a former Unocal Oil employee, Hamid Karzai, as the interim president of Afghanistan. Looking at the map of the big US bases in Afghanistan, one is struck that they are identical to the route of the projected oil pipeline. [Chicago Tribune, 3/18/02]

Dec 25, 2001: Leading structural engineers and fire-safety experts believe the investigation into the collapse of the World Trade Center is “inadequate.” They note that the current team of 20 or so investigators has inadequate financial and staff support, has been prevented from interviewing witnesses and from examining the disaster site. They couldn’t even get detailed blueprints of the World Trade Center. The decision to rapidly recycle the steel beams from the WTC means definitive answers may never be known. [New York Times, 12/25/01]

Minerva, you’re speaking with full sentences and paragraphs all of a sudden.

The first physicist that reported that the collapse was consistent with demolition was silenced.

Unfortunately, your argument doesn’t really have legs, darlink.

I think this operation was very well planned. I think they realized that there was a window of opportunity, and it was choreographed well, and despite any attempt there might have been at interception the die was cast when the terrorists took over the flights and turned the craft around.

I think Bin Laden was smart enough, had the resources, and hated us enough to hit us where it hurt......

So much for thinking, huh? Do you believe that someone can win the lottery without buying a ticket if they feel strongly enough about winning?

Nobody is that “lucky”.

Jan 4, 2002: An editorial in the respected trade magazine Fire Engineering states that there is good reason to believe that the “official investigation,” blessed by FEMA, into the WTC collapse is a half-baked farce that may already have been commandeered by political forces whose primary interests are clearly not full disclosure. Respected members of the fire protection engineering community are beginning to raise red flags, and a resonating theory has emerged: The structural damage from the planes and the jet fuel in themselves were not enough to bring down the towers. [Fire Engineering, 1/02]

Jan 24, 2002: Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle claims that on this day Cheney calls him and urges that no 911 inquiry be made. He is repeatedly pressured thereafter. [Newsweek, 2/4/02]

Feb 6, 2002: CIA Director Tenet tells a Senate hearing that there was no 911 intelligence failure. When asked about the CIA on 911, he states that the 911 plot was “in the heads of three or four people.” He rejects any suggestion that the CIA failed to do its job. [USA Today, 2/7/02]

Feb 21, 2002: A ban on poppy growing by the Taliban in July 2000 along with severe droughts reduced Afghanistan’s opium yield by 91% in 2001. Yet the UN expects its 2002 opium crop to be equivalent to the bumper one of three years ago. Afghanistan is the source of 75% of the world’s heroin. [Guardian, 2/21/02] Why is the US unable to control opium production which had almost stopped?

Mar 2, 2002: The 911 collapse of WTC building 7 was the first time a modern, steel-reinforced high-rise in the US has ever collapsed in a fire. [New York Times, 3/2/02] Building 7 was where the SEC was storing files related to numerous Wall Street investigations. The files for approximately 3,000 to 4,000 cases were destroyed. [New York Law Journal, 9/17/01] Lost files include documents that could show the relationship between Citigroup and the WorldCom bankruptcy. [The Street, 8/9/02]

Mar 13, 2002: Bush says of bin Laden: “I truly am not that concerned about him.” [White House, 3/13/02] Military chief Myers states: “the goal has never been to get bin Laden.” [CNN/DOD, 4/6/02]

Apr 19, 2002: FBI Director Mueller: “We have not uncovered a single piece of paper that mentioned any aspect of the 911 plot. The hijackers had no computers, no laptops, no storage media of any kind.” [FBI, 4/19/02, Los Angeles Times, 4/30/02] Yet investigators have amassed a ‘’substantial’’ amount of e-mail traffic among the hijackers. [USA Today, 10/1/01] The laptop computer of Moussaoui, the alleged 20th hijacker, was confiscated weeks before 911, yet FBI headquarters systematically dismissed and undermined requests by Minneapolis FBI agents to search the computer. [Time, 5/21/02, CNN, 5/27/02]

May 15, 2002: For the first time, the White House admits that Bush was warned about bin Laden hijacking aircraft and wanting to attack the US in Aug 2001. It is unclear why they waited eight months to reveal this. The Press Secretary states that while