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There most certainly needs to be paper audit trails. My state uses the optical scan balloting method. Then, if there is a dispute between with the electronic tally, a recount is easily obtained from the source documents.
The DRE method is just a bad idea, even if there is no fraud. With no accountability, election results lose their credibility.
Posted by Jay Cline on Dec 29, 2005 at 9:37 AM
That’s right. Diebold makes ATM paper receipts, what’s the big deal about giving voting machines a paper trail?
Lotsa info at: http://www.blackboxvoting.org/
Posted by pick of the litter on Dec 29, 2005 at 1:03 PM
We all agree. How often does that happen? Wow.
Posted by wileywitch on Jan 1, 2006 at 12:36 PM
It’s nice to see a longer article—-bullits even. Would like to see more of that.
IMO, Kerry and Bush were wretched choices—-they’re both twats.
This year, one of my resolutions is to learn more about campaign issues and voter issues, and to find a way to work for campaign reform.
Posted by wileywitch on Jan 1, 2006 at 12:51 PM
Well I don’t think it matters what you all think, if the Junta says voting machines are in, then they are in.
If the government says no paper trail is necessary then none is necessary.
even if there is no fraud
ha ha
All indications are of fraud, so let go of the bland assumption….please.
Happy New Year to all,......... except the wretched right, hope their year is trash.
Posted by GhostRabbit on Jan 2, 2006 at 12:01 AM
You liberals are something else ... you just can’t accept the fact that you LOST. But that makes sense, liberals always think they are correct, never wrong about anything. Liberals know everything. lol ....
Why wasn’t Ohio a problem in 2000? And why aren’t you liberals looking into Wisconsin? Kerry only won that state by 11,000 votes ... only 11,000. Bush wins by 120,000 in Ohio and there is some kind of problem, but Kerry wins by only 11,000 in Wisconsin and the “liberals conspiracy theory” nuts don’t say a thing.
Funny that the day after the election we only heard about 1-2 hour lines in Ohio. Then a week later, we hear about 3-4 hour lines in Ohio. A few weeks later, people were waiting 6 hours in line to vote. A month later, oh .. now we have people that waited 10 hours in line to vote.
PS - Do you see how stupid that story sounds?
lol .. keep drinking the kool-aid ...
I can’t wait to hear your stories after the 06’ mid-terms, this is gonna be good.
Posted by tina1 on Jan 2, 2006 at 8:43 PM
I do see how stupid that story sounds tina1. Do you have any earthly concept about why that story sounds stupid?
Posted by wileywitch on Jan 2, 2006 at 9:38 PM
Onslaught of Kenyon students voting makes national headlines
Hundreds of Kenyon students proved their mettle on Election Day, as they waited in line for as long as ten hours to cast their ballots. The local polling place had only two voting machines, one of which malfunctioned for several hours. Students, many of them first-time voters, persevered along with faculty members and community residents, bolstered by volunteers who brought them food, water, and umbrellas to ward off the rain. The last voters emerged at 4:00 a.m., applauded by their peers. Newspapers, radio and television stations, and Internet news sites throughout the country covered what may have been the longest voter line in the nation:
Sara Kaplow, Class of 2007, was interviewed by CNN about her voting experience. Her comments were broadcast nationally on a November 3 morning news program.
Peter Jennings concluded ABC’s World News Tonight with “a little genuine inspiration” from Kenyon College. He reported that by the time students finished voting, there wasn’t anyone else voting in the entire state. “I didn’t understand the importance of my single vote,” Tad Gruman, class of 2008, told a reporter. “In the future, I will never take it for granted.”
National Public Radio’s All Things Considered gave a “tip of the hat for perserverance to the students of Kenyon College.” Lauren Gray, Class of 2007, was interviewed about her experience of waiting in line for almost ten hours. “It was really, really important to me that I vote,” she said. “Everyone felt they were part of something historic.”
NBC4 in Columbus interviewed Maggie Hill, Class of 2005, about her voting experience. “It’s really apparent that everyone’s vote counts,” Hill said.
The Columbus Dispatch ran its second story on November 4. “We were (called) the apathetic youth,” Lauren Hauser, Class of 2007, was quoted as saying. “And we were going to wait however long” to prove otherwise.
Posted by Major Major on Jan 2, 2006 at 11:14 PM
<blockquote>
The BBC News reported that “electoral officials said one of the precincts at Kenyon College in Knox County has a long line of people waiting to vote and it could go on for several hours.”
The Chicago Tribune reported that first-year student Clare Keating, of Skokie, Illinois, arrived at the Gambier polls at 8:00 a.m., “and found a queue that snaked through hallways and around the building housing the polling station. ‘I waited three and a half hours to vote, which I found
ridiculous,’ she said. ‘It looked like a Disneyland ride.’ The wait caused Keating to miss a class, but her professor offered her a personalized version of the day’s lecture on Victorian artists.”
The New York Times noted that turnout was so heavy in Ohio, “even rural Knox County
Posted by Major Major on Jan 2, 2006 at 11:15 PM
<blockquote>
Bloomberg.com also observed that, “Voting in Ohio was plagued by long delays at some polling places. Voters in Gambier, the home of Kenyon College, waited more than four hours to cast their ballots. At the 1,500-student college, some voters were waiting in line after midnight.” They reported that according to English professor David Lynn, poll workers told voters they might have to wait as much as five hours in order to vote.
KTLA.com, the Web site of Los Angeles television station KTLA, quoted sophomore Lauren Gray, who was still in line at midnight waiting to cast her vote: “‘When it’s coming down to having Ohio be the deciding state, everyone at the college and in the town knows we could be the next Florida,’ Gray said.”
An Associated Press story that appeared in many outlets, including the San Jose Mercury News, USA Today, and on CBS.com and AZcentral.com, mentioned that, “In tiny Gambier northeast of Columbus, students at Kenyon College napped, snacked, and watched movies on laptop computers as they waited seven hours to cast ballots on two electronic voting machines.” The article quoted sophomore Mara Alperin, who missed two classes in order to vote: “It was a little bit discouraging, but I knew I had to go through it.”
WBAY, a television station in Green Bay, Wisconsin, carried the story on their Web site: “Voting dragged into the early morning at Kenyon College northeast of Columbus because of high turnout in a precinct with just two electronic voting machines. Paper ballots were delivered to speed things up, but lines remained more than five hours after the normal poll closing time of 7:30 p.m. By that time, the presidential election had been decided in other states.”
An article in The Columbus Dispatch quoted several Kenyon students, including sophomore Bethany Taylor, first-year student Craig Getting, and sophomore Julia Kosinki. “Getting, of King of Prussia, Pennsylvania, was among dozens
Posted by Major Major on Jan 2, 2006 at 11:15 PM
The Mansfield (Ohio) News Journal reported that, “Kenyon College students, standing in lines as long as four hours Tuesday, stood under umbrellas and did homework as they waited, taking it all in stride. Those students, and millions of other young people, demonstrated a keen interest in the country’s future.”
The Mount Vernon (Ohio) Daily News, observed that, “spirits remained high among the voters, predominately Kenyon students, many of whom were voting for the first time. At 10 p.m., student Ben Taylor let out a cheer after casting his ballot, excited to be voting in his first election and because the wait was over. He had been in line since 1 p.m. ‘I really want my vote to count. I still have a test to study for, but this is also important. It’s exciting that the students have hung in there.’” The article continued, “To pass the time, some voters read, many studied, and others did crossword puzzles or played cards. But the majority of the predominately young crowd simply enjoyed the camaraderie of participating in the democratic process. And they will certainly have a story to tell their grandchildren.”
Kenyon College. Gambier, Ohio 43022-9623 Phone: 740-427-5000
http://www.kenyon.edu/x22499.xml
Posted by Major Major on Jan 2, 2006 at 11:16 PM
Amazing that no one has any video of this. I’m on the internet everyday due to my work and I watch Fox, MSNBC, CNN and I’ve never seen any video of this.
Imagine that !!!
I guess you also believe all of the Katrina stories that are on the net. The best story from Katrina that was all over the net was that the Orleans Parish Jail was taken over by the inmates and they have the warden and wife as hostages.
You probally ate that one up like a ham sandwich. lol ...
Posted by tina1 on Jan 3, 2006 at 2:51 AM
The “losers” are the American voters. I’d sooner trust my purple finger than an unsecure, recordless, electronic machine, manufactured by donors to the Bush campaign.
Posted by pick of the litter on Jan 3, 2006 at 10:16 AM
Hey ITT thanks again for fucking up and giving a democrat the credit for what Nader began long ago.
“Nader activists question accuracy of optical vote-scan machines”
http://www4.fosters.com/november_2004/11.15.04/news/ap_nh_1115s.asp
“Nader gets recount in New Hampshire”
http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20041112-033826-6101r.htm
http://www.votenader.org/media_press/index.php?cid=400
Posted by NaderRaider on Jan 3, 2006 at 11:19 AM
Tina 1, those maniacal lols combined with your poorly organized bile gives the impression that you have serious emotional problems that are interfering with your ability to think. Your stereotyping of “liberals” is paranoid, at best.
No matter what is said, or how it is said, you always come back with the same attitudinal mess. Who are you talking to? Really?
What do you want out of this experience?
Posted by wileywitch on Jan 3, 2006 at 2:31 PM
Right on, POL.
I have a confession. Did you see that Chris Rock movie in which he played a character that was being duped into running for president by his opponent? Near the end of the movie, it’s close to the end of polling time, and the camera is looking down an apparently empty suburban neighborhood. The clock is ticking. There’s a voice-over about how near to closing time it is. Then people come bursting out of their houses, and running down the street to go vote.
It made me cry. I cry when I think about it. I’m crying now.
Sniff.
It would be so fine if the majority cared. A paper trail would indicate that our votes count enough to be counted again.
Posted by wileywitch on Jan 3, 2006 at 3:35 PM
Is there a Tina 2? Or maybe we nee a recount.
There’s only one reason you and your ilk would oppose these reforms. You’re cheating and a paper trail would prove it.
Oh, and Keith Olbermann was all over this story but you were probably too busy watching the corporate media shills.
Got anything else you rightard!
Posted by AmericanInsurgent on Jan 4, 2006 at 2:18 AM
You are exactly right with all of those news reports about Kenyon College, Gambier and Knox County, Ohio. What is interesting is that at the time of the election two of the three county commissioners were Democrats and the County Election Chairman was a Democrat.
It was a self-inflicted wound. Like the long lines in Columbus (Franklin County) in 2004 where the Election Chairman was Director of the County Democratic Party. Like the butterfly ballot in Florida in 2000, designed by a Democrat.
Posted by Campesino on Jan 4, 2006 at 1:11 PM
So if Democrats cheat, it is not a Rebublican thing then?
Or maybe the fact that you assume if we are anti Repug we must be Democrats?
Newsflash, most people around here know the Demcraps are no substantially different from Repugs when it comes to cheating or anuything much else for that matter. Campy and Tina your presumptions are not helping your posts’ credibility.
Like Wiley said, who do you think you’re talking to? Ain’t nobody by those names living here.
How is it OK to claim that we should give up our freedom and privacy, “Because if we’ve nothing to hide, then why worry?” Yet you can simultaneously defend a totally suspect system as not needing a paper trail for the purposes of verification and auditing? Obviously if nobody is cheating then everybody will benefit from the knowledge.
Otherwise…...........
Oh and Rabbit was of course assuming the above views are yours Tina, but it is at least an informed assumption, and correct no doubt.
Posted by Rabbit on Jan 4, 2006 at 7:47 PM
Who wanted the electronic touchscreen voting machines anyway?
Was it the Libs that were crying about the punch card system that was working fine for years?
So the Libs jump up and down and want electronic voting ... well, here it is ... and now the LIbs are crying about this.
It doesn’t matter what type of voting system we have ... if the Dems lose, then the Libs start crying and start with all of the conspiracy theories.
My favorite theory is the new one that the Libs started using. You know the one ... the one where they say “the exit polls had us winning”. I guess we should stop counting the real votes and just go by exit polls. lol ... lol
I’m gonna let you Libs on a little secret ... when you don’t get the most votes, YOU LOST !!! And the reason you lost is because you are not the majority in America.
See ... “Liberalism is a Mental Disorder” and you don’t get it, you just don’t understand that yet.
PS - I do enjoy seeing you liberals blow a head gasket after you lost, it’s really funny.
Posted by tina1 on Jan 7, 2006 at 5:37 AM
Last time I checked, Republicans like to claim elections were stolen, too. JFK in 1960 being their favorite accusation. So, why do Repugs opposes all measures to use existing technology, general fairness, and just plain evidence to assure fair elections and accurate and verifiably election results?
Call it whining all you want but why are exit polls compelling evidence of a stolen election in the Ukraine? And, why are purple fingers and paper ballots compelling evidence of vital democracy in Iraq?
And, I would like one of you political geniuses to explain with facts and logic, why every one of the following bill of rights should not be assured to every citizen in the world?
http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_john_bon_051213_a_voter_s_bill_of_ri.htm
Posted by AmericanInsurgent on Jan 8, 2006 at 1:16 AM
Hey Americaninsurgent,
I checked out www.opednews.com .... now that’s a trusted website. lol ...
I can’t believe you would even post that site and actually think someone would take it serious.
One article on that site talks about the GOP stealing elections in 2000, 2002 and 2004 and .... and .... setting things up to rig elections in 2006 and 2008.
What doesn’t make sense is this: IF THERE IS SO MUCH VOTING FRAUD BY REPUBLICANS ... THEN WHY DON’T WE HEAR ABOUT ANYBODY GETTING ARRESTED ???
Now I’ve seen many Democrats not only arrested ... but convicted.
http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2005/06/guilty-verdict-in-esl-voter-fraud.html
http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041019/NEWS09/410190343
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=109&STORY;=/www/story/10-22-2004/0002292745&EDATE;=
I LOVE THIS ARTICLE .... It talks about Liberals being angry, which is what I’ve been saying.
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/30624
PS - If you want to really understand liberals, then read a book by Michael Savage .... “Liberalism is a Mental Disorder”
Posted by tina1 on Jan 8, 2006 at 3:58 PM
Michael Savage? And you want to talk about sources. And you want to talk about sources. If you want to learn about this valuable source, check out what a fair-minded charlatan he is: http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2003/03/05/savage/
I cited sources, which is more than most of you liars do. My source has credentials; he
Posted by AmericanInsurgent on Jan 9, 2006 at 1:57 AM
“Trust but verify.” Wasn’t that Reagan’s oft-quoted Russian proverb, back in the Gorbachev/IMF reduction days. I’ve forgotten the Russian phrase itself, too much time passed.
Doesn’t matter. Verify. Check. Cross-check. Easy. Necessary.
And when it comes to computers, leave the “trust” part out!
To truly trust an inherently imperfect electronic machine, whose data is not backed up, that cannot possibly be made hack-proof (whether by Reps or Dems or bloody Anarcho-Whigs, who gives a damn who it could be?), that can be infected with viruse, that can be fucked up with something as simple as a refrigerator magnet, built and maintained by people who cannot be neutral with regard to election results, is daft.
Whether Diebold makes them, or whether “Nadertech, Inc” makes them, what’s the difference? No one is neutral about elections. It’s an inherent conflict of interest.
Trust is when you can drop your guard, turn your back, and not worry a bit. Who the hell actually “trusts” computing devices? I don’t “trust” mine to save last year’s Christmas letters, much less my actual important data; I back up to CD-RW routinely, and truly vital stuff gets further backed up on an additional disc. My will and other important post-death docs are paper, multiple copies. Why? Because to sincerely trust any class of devices that has a proven track record of finnicky, data-loss prone behavior is delusional. Of course computers fuck up, what mechanical/electronic construction doesn’t? It’s impossible from the point of view of physics to have a perfectly working mechanism that never, ever chokes.
You can be liberal, neo-con, communist, or Green and you can’t change that! Although, I’ve met people who were apparently devotees of the Cult of Info Tech, maybe they…
...nah, not even the geekiest actually buys the infallibility line. They’re the ones who constantly advise the rest of us to back stuff up, yes?
So to “trust” computers with vote tabulations is crazy. Recycled paper, multiple guards to escort ballot boxes to counting stations, records of voters who appeared to compare against ballots submitted, and double counts of all ballots by separate counting teams, that’s what’s needed.
Yup, double counts. Better to wait a little longer for results and be able to say with much clearer confidence that the winner really is, unequivocally, the winner.
If the GOP wins in that scenario, then they’re well and truly the verifiable winners. Fine.
Whoever thought up the computerized voting machine idea either wanted to be able to freak the results or got ahold of some bad dope. Either way, it’s a hateful idea, ban the damn things today.
Who’s threatened by verifiability, anyway?
Posted by Kuya on Jan 9, 2006 at 7:33 AM
Yes, Kuya. And the costs! Who would spend a lot of money on voting machines that are inherently fallible—-as you so wisely point out—-when paper slips and pencils are more reliable and make a recount possible? Who would benefit from machines with no paper trail? Not the voters, and whoever wins is my guess.
Evidently many people do not get the one person/one vote, whenever one person’s rights are being violated, everyones’
rights are being violated.
It seems that CONSERVATIVES!!! (burp, slurp, stagger around<>) have a problem with verifiability and accountability. It <i>seems that way.
Now I really think that true liberalism and conservativism are both healthy and necessary perspectives for a free and mentally healthy nation. Like Churchill said, “to be under thirty and conservative is to have no heart, to be over thirty and liberal is to have no brain.” Not to put too literal a point on that. I don’t agee with the “be” part in a literal and/or extreme sense; but an appreciation of both makes for more well-rounded personalities and better citizens.
And to be threatened by a recount is to invite suspicion and doubt.
Posted by wileywitch on Jan 9, 2006 at 1:41 PM
Am having serious problems with HTML codes, for some reason.
Anyway—-<i>I
Posted by wileywitch on Jan 9, 2006 at 1:51 PM
Hello to you, wileywitch. :-)
Your point above regarding the limitation or effective denial of voting rights is an important related issue. Of course, even verifiable ballots are not enough. Every time there’s even an allegation that voters’ ballots have been lost, altered, prevented from getting into their hands, ruled out of the total tabulation, etc etc, those who believe in participatory democracy should be alarmed. And any candidate of integrity should push for the controversy to be investigated and resolved.
If I was an elected official, and the veracity of my victory was called into question, I’d be highly distressed. I would be especially horrified by any suggestion of vote tampering, or any form of finagling with registration records, inhibition of voters being able to vote when they attempt to, basically any hint of impropriety in the process.
Yes, all y’all who might point this out, it’s about as likely that I would get elected to office as it would be for me to flap my arms and fly to the moon, I’m being hypothetical.
But my point is, short of focusing on victory at any cost, what kind of officeholder wouldn’t be distressed at the possibility that his or her win was illegitimate? Would not any person with a shred of conscience get a chill of horror when CNN or whomever broadcasts the reported suspicion that the election they had just won was called into doubt because of electoral improprieties? Felonious improprieties, I might add?
I can hear it now: “President-elect Kuya’s winning of the states of Ohio and Florida have been called into severe question by representatives of the opposition party, who claim that data from voting machines was lost or perhaps even deleted, and that the ballots collected from several counties in each state were not included in the total in order to tip the balance in Kuya’s favor. The validity of the entire election has been put into doubt in the minds of millions.”
After I got done choking in dismay (but before I woke up from my weird dream of winning the presidency), I’d like to be able to say, “Recount! Get the real numbers! And if anyone has been caught fiddling with the voting process, throw their asses in jail.”
Sorry, I know character and integrity are out of fashion, but I guess I got hypnotized by all that crap my parents taught me. I’ll have to get with the program.
To close, one last point is that every time an election appears not to have been carried out in a straight-up, totally correct manner, it just discourages people from voting next time around. Young people especially are more likely to say, “Fuck it, the whole game is rigged.” If that’s not damaging to the national culture and to democracy as a paradigm, I don’t know what is!
Posted by Kuya on Jan 10, 2006 at 8:35 PM
It’s more than out of fashion, Kuya. We’re dealing with pathologies when we’re dealing with this administration. They don’t care. They don’t care. They don’t care.
You can save a lot of energy by not expecting them to, or trying to get them to act as if they did. They’re going to attack whatever country they want to attack. Give the corporations what ever they want to give them. Jail and torture whoever they want for whatever reason. Kill whoever they want for any price (it’s on the taxpayers’ tab). And fix any election however they want.
And just like the radical, violent, Islamic fundamentalists and assorted rich-kid power mongerers to the east, they will depend on the uneducated, functionally illiterate, scared working-sheep to defend them.
Bush’s real base is the pathologically selfish and rich, alcoholics, and the children of alcoholics. This administration is dependent on a large class of parasites and enablers. There’s only one group here that is going to be served, and I’m sure you can tell which.
Don’t mean to be a bummer, but pretty soon, I think we’ll find this country spinning out of control and we’ll feel nostalgic for the times when there were elections to fix.
I hope I’m wrong.
Posted by wileywitch on Jan 10, 2006 at 10:44 PM
Yup, I hope so too kiddo.
If only there was a real opposition party with some popular steam behind it, or some kind of antithetical movement that had a prayer of inspiring more than a few people. But I see nothing of the kind.
Pathological, indeed. So is the junkfood-addicted, Prozac-gargling, TV-hypnotized, porn-fixated, fuel-guzzling, race-warring, short-sighted society getting the “democracy” it deserves?
I almost erased that question before I posted it. It scared me.
Posted by Kuya on Jan 11, 2006 at 3:05 AM
It’s not that there are not the people or the ideas, it is that they have no access to the Programming. The only source which can get through to these ninnies (Hi Tina1), is the television, and to a lesser degree the MSM newspapers, but only if they agree with the television.
When did John Fogerty write “I know it’s true, cause I heard it on TV”?
So you have a great set of ideas, and a plan, you have a handfull of devoted followers. Now try and get your message out. The first thing that happens is you’re ignored, but with some money and determination, some taleneted people you can get some media coverage. Fine and dandy until you actually get noticed by anybody, then you are just meat. The media will distort and crudify the whole message, they will find some simple angles and crucify you as fast or as slowly as the Big parties rerquire to make most use of what you are doing. They can actually play you separately on their own behalf, white anting your followers by adopting some of your words, and at the same time, control what are percieved to be your words within the media.
There is no easy way out guys.
Rabbit has thought long and hard about it, and invites anybody else to do the same, but with a complicit media and almost complete control, thus carte blanche to do what they want, and a massive number of zombies who will follow and do whatever they are told through the picture tube, how the hell do you propose the right people can be heard?
Hi there Kuya, good to see you about, when are you ready for some more installments before the final revelation of Rabbit’s theory of Man’s evolution?
Kuya is another shiny one Wiley.
Hi Kuya, good to see you about.
Posted by Rabbit on Jan 11, 2006 at 5:07 AM
Ola, lapine comrade, been a while…
Please send any evo stuff to my email, always interested.
You make a good point about limited ability to access mass media equaling limited influence in the public sphere. If you aint on the tube, you aint shit, politically. I’ve come to semi-believe that what’s needed is someone with huge money resources in their own name who will bulldog their way into the public eye, pushing a progressive line through their own snazzy, upbeat, impossible-to-ignore program. Someone with charisma, integrity, photogenic qualities, and who actually believes that the value of benefitting people at large across the planet outweighs the value of manipulating politico-economic conditions in favor of his or her cronies. Someone relentless, fearless, beholden to no Big Party, who is able to persuade Joe and Jane Blow to abandon thoughtlessness and blank-out ignorance of the eroding living conditions that too many endure daily.
How’s that for a recipe for social change and diversion away from Big Party poli-tricks? Can’t think of one single applicant for the role, among 6M+ living people. Can you?
However, to give up is to sharpen the enemies’ blades with our own hands, and that we must never do, so we do what fringey progressives must do which is to plod along and try to deflate the Mass Tricksters’ balloons whenever possible. While, of course, avoiding the more silly-assed aspects of the progressive fringe, who are good for comedy relief but not much else. There isn’t any zillionaire inspirer out there, so that leaves individual people chipping away at the edifice of gobble-it-up-just-in-case-there’s-no-Rapture irrationality.
So whether it’s getting rid of hackable election machines, outlawing discriminations over lovestyles, mandating responsibility for one’s pollutions or scrapping market-freaking subsidies that bully down small producers, it’s an evolutionary process (to come full circle from your post, Rabbit), slow and fitful, often appearing incomprehensible or out-of-step with the Miss Grundys of the world.
To get heard, you keep talking. To get seen, you keep showing up. To influence others, you keep learning and teaching. Uphill climb, yes, but continued effort is what makes one stronger.
The Big Parties have it easy. They can afford to build an escalator while some of us have to climb the hill with our feet and hands. But that’s why they’ve become morally and intellectually slothful. Listen to guys like Ted Kennedy or Ted Stevens (US Senators on opposite sides of the two-headed Big Party, Sir Rabbit), and you wonder sometimes what the hell’s going on in their heads. You wonder whether they belong in a home for retarded adults. It’s because they’ve lost any sharpness or alertness they may once have had. Lost the ideal of leaving it better than they found it, which both once had long, long ago.
And they’re all over the tube, so they really are the shit, politically.
We’ll just keep pushing. What else can we do?
Unless you know some zillionaire inspirer who wants to take the mf’rs on…?
Posted by Kuya on Jan 11, 2006 at 9:09 AM
Oh boy did I want to puke watching the Democrats run up to the camera and shoot themselves in the foot trying to look “tough” with Alito. The worse part is MSM describing the questioning as “tough” and he was “grilled”. I’d be tougher interviewing a babysitter.
They’re all soft. Hey, am I annoying yet? How about this—-they’re all a bunch of pussies!
What question scared you, Kuya?
As far as the money goes, it’s like wanting to live in a world without cars, and then deciding to drive there. It may sound harsh, but I honestly believe that most Americans aren’t going to “get” anything until they’ve learned the hard way and money becomes a whole lot less important than food or shelter.
Many Americans, and everyone in Congress (and the administration, of course) have forgotten what we really work for.
Posted by wileywitch on Jan 11, 2006 at 9:33 PM
Hi wiley,
“So is the junkfood-addicted, Prozac-gargling, TV-hypnotized, porn-fixated, fuel-guzzling, race-warring, short-sighted society getting the
Posted by Kuya on Jan 12, 2006 at 4:04 AM
I’m wondering if the media might simply ignore a war on Iran. Just not talk about it and hope that nobody notices. It is certainly not easy to strike up a conversation about it.
Maybe it’s not polarized enough yet? The spin machine is running behind?
Sigh.
Posted by wileywitch on Jan 12, 2006 at 11:36 PM
The truth is liberals and/or anti-Bush whoevers want to believe that someone cheated them so they can make an excuse for losing an election. I can understand some bitterness a few months post-election but to continue on for this long is totally unbelievable. It is actually pretty immature.
It all comes back to liberals having to be right 100% of the time, and something that they don’t necessarily like or agree with HAS to be wrong. Sure, Bush hasn’t done his job perfectly and I, as a conservative, am willing to admit the man has flaws. It does no one any good to constantly bicker over things that are over and done with. If you want a change, work for a change.
I voted in Ohio and we used punch card ballots. I was 18 years old at the time and I woke up very early to get to the polls to avoid long lines. If the Democrats want to complain about long lines they should have taken the initiative and got out of bed so they could avoid that situation. If John Kerry had won, there would be no outcry against the voting machines because the liberals got their way.
The only reason conservatives complained in 1960 was because dead people somehow managed to register and vote in the election.
There is no conspiracy to disenfranchise anyone and until difinitive proof (not just liberal claims) is found, just stop talking about it.
Posted by andrewUTK9 on Jan 13, 2006 at 4:36 PM
You must be the grand-poo-bah of….something.
...just stop talking about it…. Don’t tell me, you’re studying law, right. The truth is… blah, blah, blah.
If you and tina1 are not the same then you two might want to hook up.
Posted by wileywitch on Jan 13, 2006 at 8:28 PM
Great post andrew ...
Liberals keep screaming that they want fair elections, if that is so, then why are they against laws that require voters to show an ID to vote?
Republicans want voters to show an ID to vote. Libs say that descriminates against certain people. WHO?
Everyone has to have an ID today. If someone doesn’t have a drivers licence, then they have a state ID. Do you know anyone who doesn’t have an ID?
The only reason liberals are against voters having to show an ID is because then they can’t cheat.
With Roberts and Alito in the Supreme Court we don’t have to worry about these stupid liberals trying push their agendas thru the courts anymore.
HEY LIBERALS ... DO YOU LIKE APPLES?
WELL, THE SUPREME COURT IS NOW TILTED TO THE RIGHT .... AS IT SHOULD BE.
HOW DO YOU LIKE THEM APPLES?
Posted by tina1 on Jan 13, 2006 at 8:34 PM
Tina1, I’m so glad you and andrew have found each other. It must be very hard to make it appear that you represent the majority when you are all alone.
Haven’t you noticed, Tina1? You’re never really part of the conversation.
How do you like them apples?
And today’s tina topic is “I.D.s”
Are you over 18? I get the impression that you are not an adult. Do your parents know you’re….that’s it! Your parents are democrats, right? You’re over here instead of working things out with your parents?
Good luck. Just for good measure, you might want to look up Asberger’s Syndrome. It’s a form of high functioning autism that includes total social cluelessness.
Posted by wileywitch on Jan 13, 2006 at 9:34 PM
Am I over 18? Well yes I am obviously since I voted in the election. But you would probably say I wasn’t but that I voted illegally for the Republicans. All you say is blah blah blah because you have nothing intelligent to say.
I know some intelligent liberals and they are alright in my book because they don’t make rediculous claims. And no I’m not studying law or anything, I just have common sense and know when people are talking out of their asses.
Why do you think there is some conspiracy whenever something doesn’t go the way you wanted it to? It is stupid to think that. Anyone with any common sense would realize they are making themselves look ignorant and stupid by posting the things that some are posting on here. Just because you are not right does not make a conspiracy against you. You have no proof, so stop making claims that can’t be backed up.
My mother, and my late father, are and were conservatives and I am very much an adult. Lastly, your ad hominem arguments mean nothing and make you seem more out of touch with reality. Just face the facts. George Bush won and you are pissed about it. Don’t make things up to justify your anger.
Posted by andrewUTK9 on Jan 14, 2006 at 1:55 AM
You Republicans are never talking to anyone in particular, you just spout empty rants about the stereotypes you make up. It’s a lot like talking out your asses isn’t it? lmao.
YOU ARE TALKING OUT YOUR ASSES>>>>> YOU REPUBLICAN MORONS ALWAYS THINK YOU’RE IN CONTROL BECAUSE YOU TALK LIKE YOU ARE! lol.
You Repuclicans don’t know me or anyone else here, you’re all a bunch of useless sycophantic twits that are ALWAYS complaining about liberals because actually discussing issues is too much of an intellectual challenge for you. lol.
You retarded dip shit Republicans only bring up facts as supposed examples for supposed arguments that are still nothing but anti-liberal rants? lol. ALWAYS A STUPID RANT ABOUT THE “LIBERALS” YOU MAKE UP>>>>>>.LOL.
You dumb ass Republicans are always holier-than-thou nincompoops that don’t understand that your little reign is nothing more than a drop of piss in a bucket of your own shit. You Republicans are living in your little fantasy posts where you’re all the little kings of your dungheap. lol.
You Republicans are always angry. lol. You republicans are antisocial assholes that are in love with the smell of your own farts.lol.
And it’s not enough for you social misfit Republicans to spout your mindless horseshit amongst yourselves, you go around shitting on everyone elses’ porch. LOL.
IN THE END THOUGH, WHO NEEDS THE OTHER THE MOST? YOU STUPID PIG REPUBLICANS APPARENTLY NEED LIBERALS MORE THAN THEY NEED YOU. LOL..
THIS JUST PROVES THAT REPUBLICANS ARE MENTALLY ILL. LOL.
And you can prove that you’re not angry, look at all those lol’s.
Posted by wileywitch on Jan 14, 2006 at 12:19 PM
http://michellemalkin.com/archives/003801.htm
Posted by tina1 on Jan 15, 2006 at 5:42 PM
Yeah, you really addressed some issues there in your post wileywitch. If you had read my post you wouldn’t have spouted off like you did. You are nothing but a hypocrite.
Posted by andrewUTK9 on Jan 16, 2006 at 2:36 AM
Tina - Andrew, Rabbit cannot tell them apart so rather than just say Tina and Andrew or Tinaandrew or something ridiculous Rabbit will take the liberty of refferring to you as Tiny Shrew.
Tiny Shrew
With YOUR Ad-hominem and silly “Nhah Nhah Nhah, we won so there get over it”, does perhaps have the advantage for you of allowing you to post something which may make you feel you are contributing…or not. The line fails to address anything of what is bothering anybody whether you wish to label them as Liberals, Communists or just Wankers, about George Dubya. For example I, who am an Rabbit from the land of Oz, hate and loathe the Shrub with if not equal then even greater venom than any who may be fortunate enough to be able to count themselves lucky enough to be among the illustrious company of your apparent Nemesis…..LIBERALS.
Not only I but most people from most places in the world, these days hate and despise the POTUS you have currently allowed to float to the top of the Cesspool of that farcical, insane carnival of deception and mass hysteria, you call politics in America. Not unlike politics in the FEW countries who still officially at least want to know you, like us, Britain and Oz. Yet yours in on a grander and many times multiplied scale of idiocy and deception.
Bush, for all his lack of awareness of the world around him, his blind and arrogant hubris, his lack of empathy for his fellow man, And not least his assumption that he is owed everything just because he is, is the logical result of the lowest common denominator floating to the top of what we can ALL very clearly percieve is your society.
It is not small and timid thinker, Tiny Shrew: it is not because Bush won or even for that matter because he cheated in doing so, which is history spin it how you will. The reason people, of not only Liberal American persuasion but of every race creed and country are not very happy right now, is because Bush is a complete lunatic, a stupid, profane and ultimately irresponsible lame brained failure at everything he has ever done. Unless you count Fucking up the USA economically and socially, making the USA into a combination satanic empire and a sad laughing stock nation of crackpots in the eyes of not just your assigned Muslim foes, but even your FORMER friends would rather go with China or Russia these days rather than allow you wackjobs to pull too many more insanely dangerous and greedy stunts.
It isn’t Bush that is the problem, he is just a ninny, a scapegoat and ultimately a sacrifice.
Posted by Rabbit on Jan 16, 2006 at 5:34 AM
I Rabbit will tell you all what is GOING to happen. In the next election, the Repugs will probably be on their knees, assuming that Martial Law is not declared between now and then, in which case there won’t be a next election, get used to that idea, because it would seem a fair to be a 50% probability from here, that you’ll get Martial Law before the next election, in which case it’s game over. Tina1 will be saying what she likes, but any chance anyone will dare engage her will be done. Isn’t that good Tina, you’ll be able to say whatever the TV tells you to say and nobody will argue with you because to do so will see them dissapear, possibly forever.
If the next election becomes a reality then my guess is, no matter what any of you vote, the person you will get is already decided, it will be Hillary Clinton, like it or not, and the Repugs will almost certainly screaming that the voting machines were rigged. And they will almost certainly be right. In this manner the controversy over the voting irregularities will conveniently be deflated, in the small and unimaginative minds of mainstream America. (That’s you Tiny Shrew)
It will become a normal part of the after election scene for the losing side to scream the other side had the machines rigged. TOO easy now for the masters to play dualities.
Basically you’re screwed America.
Thanks to nitwits like Tiny Shrew, Tina1 or Andrew, I don’t care what yourname is you are a moron, a complete Dittohead, a lamebrained sheeple, you drink the Koolaid, you sound like you were weaned on the Koolaid and you probably have so much bullshit in your head you could grow a years supply of potatoes for a small Irish town.
Posted by Rabbit on Jan 16, 2006 at 5:34 AM
It also seems that Rabbit lost a little post to Wiley.
Wiley din’t you notice that Andrew replied directly to your direct question to Tina1?
It’s not a very bright moron, but it could also be a Shill, playing tricks like multiple personalities. Not a Troll this one, something either more mundane or more sinister.
What a choice. Don’t go getting yourself banned over such a ninny with a gender issue.
Posted by Rabbit on Jan 16, 2006 at 5:50 AM
Talk to it about Abramoff instead, and see if it spins the official line which tries to spread the BS around for all to share.
Posted by Rabbit on Jan 16, 2006 at 5:52 AM
Oh Wiley
Rabbit knows something about the Tiny Shrew. Dave when he sees it will too.
Notice how the Tiny Shrew spoke to itself, there did we?
Great post andrew ...
Familiar Dave?
Posted by Rabbit on Jan 16, 2006 at 5:55 AM
Kuya, The rabbit’s computer died a terrible flame and smoke type death courtesy of the powersurge from hell.
With it went his address book for emails. Have been hoping for a word from you so as to be able to reply, would you drop Rabbit a line sometime so he has the address again please?
Posted by Rabbit on Jan 16, 2006 at 6:02 AM
Page 1 of 1 pages
SAVE 53% OFFTHE NEWSSTAND PRICE!
Reader Comments
There most certainly needs to be paper audit trails. My state uses the optical scan balloting method. Then, if there is a dispute between with the electronic tally, a recount is easily obtained from the source documents.
The DRE method is just a bad idea, even if there is no fraud. With no accountability, election results lose their credibility.
That’s right. Diebold makes ATM paper receipts, what’s the big deal about giving voting machines a paper trail?
Lotsa info at: http://www.blackboxvoting.org/
We all agree. How often does that happen? Wow.
It’s nice to see a longer article—-bullits even. Would like to see more of that.
IMO, Kerry and Bush were wretched choices—-they’re both twats.
This year, one of my resolutions is to learn more about campaign issues and voter issues, and to find a way to work for campaign reform.
Well I don’t think it matters what you all think, if the Junta says voting machines are in, then they are in.
If the government says no paper trail is necessary then none is necessary.
even if there is no fraud
ha ha
All indications are of fraud, so let go of the bland assumption….please.
Happy New Year to all,......... except the wretched right, hope their year is trash.
You liberals are something else ... you just can’t accept the fact that you LOST. But that makes sense, liberals always think they are correct, never wrong about anything. Liberals know everything. lol ....
Why wasn’t Ohio a problem in 2000? And why aren’t you liberals looking into Wisconsin? Kerry only won that state by 11,000 votes ... only 11,000. Bush wins by 120,000 in Ohio and there is some kind of problem, but Kerry wins by only 11,000 in Wisconsin and the “liberals conspiracy theory” nuts don’t say a thing.
Funny that the day after the election we only heard about 1-2 hour lines in Ohio. Then a week later, we hear about 3-4 hour lines in Ohio. A few weeks later, people were waiting 6 hours in line to vote. A month later, oh .. now we have people that waited 10 hours in line to vote.
PS - Do you see how stupid that story sounds?
lol .. keep drinking the kool-aid ...
I can’t wait to hear your stories after the 06’ mid-terms, this is gonna be good.
I do see how stupid that story sounds tina1. Do you have any earthly concept about why that story sounds stupid?
<blockquote>
The BBC News reported that “electoral officials said one of the precincts at Kenyon College in Knox County has a long line of people waiting to vote and it could go on for several hours.”
The Chicago Tribune reported that first-year student Clare Keating, of Skokie, Illinois, arrived at the Gambier polls at 8:00 a.m., “and found a queue that snaked through hallways and around the building housing the polling station. ‘I waited three and a half hours to vote, which I found
ridiculous,’ she said. ‘It looked like a Disneyland ride.’ The wait caused Keating to miss a class, but her professor offered her a personalized version of the day’s lecture on Victorian artists.”
The New York Times noted that turnout was so heavy in Ohio, “even rural Knox County
<blockquote>
Bloomberg.com also observed that, “Voting in Ohio was plagued by long delays at some polling places. Voters in Gambier, the home of Kenyon College, waited more than four hours to cast their ballots. At the 1,500-student college, some voters were waiting in line after midnight.” They reported that according to English professor David Lynn, poll workers told voters they might have to wait as much as five hours in order to vote.
KTLA.com, the Web site of Los Angeles television station KTLA, quoted sophomore Lauren Gray, who was still in line at midnight waiting to cast her vote: “‘When it’s coming down to having Ohio be the deciding state, everyone at the college and in the town knows we could be the next Florida,’ Gray said.”
An Associated Press story that appeared in many outlets, including the San Jose Mercury News, USA Today, and on CBS.com and AZcentral.com, mentioned that, “In tiny Gambier northeast of Columbus, students at Kenyon College napped, snacked, and watched movies on laptop computers as they waited seven hours to cast ballots on two electronic voting machines.” The article quoted sophomore Mara Alperin, who missed two classes in order to vote: “It was a little bit discouraging, but I knew I had to go through it.”
WBAY, a television station in Green Bay, Wisconsin, carried the story on their Web site: “Voting dragged into the early morning at Kenyon College northeast of Columbus because of high turnout in a precinct with just two electronic voting machines. Paper ballots were delivered to speed things up, but lines remained more than five hours after the normal poll closing time of 7:30 p.m. By that time, the presidential election had been decided in other states.”
An article in The Columbus Dispatch quoted several Kenyon students, including sophomore Bethany Taylor, first-year student Craig Getting, and sophomore Julia Kosinki. “Getting, of King of Prussia, Pennsylvania, was among dozens
Amazing that no one has any video of this. I’m on the internet everyday due to my work and I watch Fox, MSNBC, CNN and I’ve never seen any video of this.
Imagine that !!!
I guess you also believe all of the Katrina stories that are on the net. The best story from Katrina that was all over the net was that the Orleans Parish Jail was taken over by the inmates and they have the warden and wife as hostages.
You probally ate that one up like a ham sandwich. lol ...
The “losers” are the American voters. I’d sooner trust my purple finger than an unsecure, recordless, electronic machine, manufactured by donors to the Bush campaign.
Hey ITT thanks again for fucking up and giving a democrat the credit for what Nader began long ago.
“Nader activists question accuracy of optical vote-scan machines”
http://www4.fosters.com/november_2004/11.15.04/news/ap_nh_1115s.asp
“Nader gets recount in New Hampshire”
http://washingtontimes.com/upi-breaking/20041112-033826-6101r.htm
http://www.votenader.org/media_press/index.php?cid=400
Tina 1, those maniacal lols combined with your poorly organized bile gives the impression that you have serious emotional problems that are interfering with your ability to think. Your stereotyping of “liberals” is paranoid, at best.
No matter what is said, or how it is said, you always come back with the same attitudinal mess. Who are you talking to? Really?
What do you want out of this experience?
Right on, POL.
I have a confession. Did you see that Chris Rock movie in which he played a character that was being duped into running for president by his opponent? Near the end of the movie, it’s close to the end of polling time, and the camera is looking down an apparently empty suburban neighborhood. The clock is ticking. There’s a voice-over about how near to closing time it is. Then people come bursting out of their houses, and running down the street to go vote.
It made me cry. I cry when I think about it. I’m crying now.
Sniff.
It would be so fine if the majority cared. A paper trail would indicate that our votes count enough to be counted again.
Is there a Tina 2? Or maybe we nee a recount.
There’s only one reason you and your ilk would oppose these reforms. You’re cheating and a paper trail would prove it.
Oh, and Keith Olbermann was all over this story but you were probably too busy watching the corporate media shills.
Got anything else you rightard!
You are exactly right with all of those news reports about Kenyon College, Gambier and Knox County, Ohio. What is interesting is that at the time of the election two of the three county commissioners were Democrats and the County Election Chairman was a Democrat.
It was a self-inflicted wound. Like the long lines in Columbus (Franklin County) in 2004 where the Election Chairman was Director of the County Democratic Party. Like the butterfly ballot in Florida in 2000, designed by a Democrat.
So if Democrats cheat, it is not a Rebublican thing then?
Or maybe the fact that you assume if we are anti Repug we must be Democrats?
Newsflash, most people around here know the Demcraps are no substantially different from Repugs when it comes to cheating or anuything much else for that matter. Campy and Tina your presumptions are not helping your posts’ credibility.
Like Wiley said, who do you think you’re talking to? Ain’t nobody by those names living here.
How is it OK to claim that we should give up our freedom and privacy, “Because if we’ve nothing to hide, then why worry?” Yet you can simultaneously defend a totally suspect system as not needing a paper trail for the purposes of verification and auditing? Obviously if nobody is cheating then everybody will benefit from the knowledge.
Otherwise…...........
Oh and Rabbit was of course assuming the above views are yours Tina, but it is at least an informed assumption, and correct no doubt.
Who wanted the electronic touchscreen voting machines anyway?
Was it the Libs that were crying about the punch card system that was working fine for years?
So the Libs jump up and down and want electronic voting ... well, here it is ... and now the LIbs are crying about this.
It doesn’t matter what type of voting system we have ... if the Dems lose, then the Libs start crying and start with all of the conspiracy theories.
My favorite theory is the new one that the Libs started using. You know the one ... the one where they say “the exit polls had us winning”. I guess we should stop counting the real votes and just go by exit polls. lol ... lol
I’m gonna let you Libs on a little secret ... when you don’t get the most votes, YOU LOST !!! And the reason you lost is because you are not the majority in America.
See ... “Liberalism is a Mental Disorder” and you don’t get it, you just don’t understand that yet.
PS - I do enjoy seeing you liberals blow a head gasket after you lost, it’s really funny.
Last time I checked, Republicans like to claim elections were stolen, too. JFK in 1960 being their favorite accusation. So, why do Repugs opposes all measures to use existing technology, general fairness, and just plain evidence to assure fair elections and accurate and verifiably election results?
Call it whining all you want but why are exit polls compelling evidence of a stolen election in the Ukraine? And, why are purple fingers and paper ballots compelling evidence of vital democracy in Iraq?
And, I would like one of you political geniuses to explain with facts and logic, why every one of the following bill of rights should not be assured to every citizen in the world?
http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_john_bon_051213_a_voter_s_bill_of_ri.htm
Hey Americaninsurgent,
I checked out www.opednews.com .... now that’s a trusted website. lol ...
I can’t believe you would even post that site and actually think someone would take it serious.
One article on that site talks about the GOP stealing elections in 2000, 2002 and 2004 and .... and .... setting things up to rig elections in 2006 and 2008.
What doesn’t make sense is this: IF THERE IS SO MUCH VOTING FRAUD BY REPUBLICANS ... THEN WHY DON’T WE HEAR ABOUT ANYBODY GETTING ARRESTED ???
Now I’ve seen many Democrats not only arrested ... but convicted.
http://gatewaypundit.blogspot.com/2005/06/guilty-verdict-in-esl-voter-fraud.html
http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20041019/NEWS09/410190343
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=109&STORY;=/www/story/10-22-2004/0002292745&EDATE;=
I LOVE THIS ARTICLE .... It talks about Liberals being angry, which is what I’ve been saying.
http://www.theonion.com/content/node/30624
PS - If you want to really understand liberals, then read a book by Michael Savage .... “Liberalism is a Mental Disorder”
Michael Savage? And you want to talk about sources. And you want to talk about sources. If you want to learn about this valuable source, check out what a fair-minded charlatan he is: http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2003/03/05/savage/
I cited sources, which is more than most of you liars do. My source has credentials; he
“Trust but verify.” Wasn’t that Reagan’s oft-quoted Russian proverb, back in the Gorbachev/IMF reduction days. I’ve forgotten the Russian phrase itself, too much time passed.
Doesn’t matter. Verify. Check. Cross-check. Easy. Necessary.
And when it comes to computers, leave the “trust” part out!
To truly trust an inherently imperfect electronic machine, whose data is not backed up, that cannot possibly be made hack-proof (whether by Reps or Dems or bloody Anarcho-Whigs, who gives a damn who it could be?), that can be infected with viruse, that can be fucked up with something as simple as a refrigerator magnet, built and maintained by people who cannot be neutral with regard to election results, is daft.
Whether Diebold makes them, or whether “Nadertech, Inc” makes them, what’s the difference? No one is neutral about elections. It’s an inherent conflict of interest.
Trust is when you can drop your guard, turn your back, and not worry a bit. Who the hell actually “trusts” computing devices? I don’t “trust” mine to save last year’s Christmas letters, much less my actual important data; I back up to CD-RW routinely, and truly vital stuff gets further backed up on an additional disc. My will and other important post-death docs are paper, multiple copies. Why? Because to sincerely trust any class of devices that has a proven track record of finnicky, data-loss prone behavior is delusional. Of course computers fuck up, what mechanical/electronic construction doesn’t? It’s impossible from the point of view of physics to have a perfectly working mechanism that never, ever chokes.
You can be liberal, neo-con, communist, or Green and you can’t change that! Although, I’ve met people who were apparently devotees of the Cult of Info Tech, maybe they…
...nah, not even the geekiest actually buys the infallibility line. They’re the ones who constantly advise the rest of us to back stuff up, yes?
So to “trust” computers with vote tabulations is crazy. Recycled paper, multiple guards to escort ballot boxes to counting stations, records of voters who appeared to compare against ballots submitted, and double counts of all ballots by separate counting teams, that’s what’s needed.
Yup, double counts. Better to wait a little longer for results and be able to say with much clearer confidence that the winner really is, unequivocally, the winner.
If the GOP wins in that scenario, then they’re well and truly the verifiable winners. Fine.
Whoever thought up the computerized voting machine idea either wanted to be able to freak the results or got ahold of some bad dope. Either way, it’s a hateful idea, ban the damn things today.
Who’s threatened by verifiability, anyway?
Yes, Kuya. And the costs! Who would spend a lot of money on voting machines that are inherently fallible—-as you so wisely point out—-when paper slips and pencils are more reliable and make a recount possible? Who would benefit from machines with no paper trail? Not the voters, and whoever wins is my guess.
Evidently many people do not get the one person/one vote, whenever one person’s rights are being violated, everyones’
rights are being violated.
It seems that CONSERVATIVES!!! (burp, slurp, stagger around<>) have a problem with verifiability and accountability. It <i>seems that way.
Now I really think that true liberalism and conservativism are both healthy and necessary perspectives for a free and mentally healthy nation. Like Churchill said, “to be under thirty and conservative is to have no heart, to be over thirty and liberal is to have no brain.” Not to put too literal a point on that. I don’t agee with the “be” part in a literal and/or extreme sense; but an appreciation of both makes for more well-rounded personalities and better citizens.
And to be threatened by a recount is to invite suspicion and doubt.
Am having serious problems with HTML codes, for some reason.
Anyway—-<i>I
Hello to you, wileywitch. :-)
Your point above regarding the limitation or effective denial of voting rights is an important related issue. Of course, even verifiable ballots are not enough. Every time there’s even an allegation that voters’ ballots have been lost, altered, prevented from getting into their hands, ruled out of the total tabulation, etc etc, those who believe in participatory democracy should be alarmed. And any candidate of integrity should push for the controversy to be investigated and resolved.
If I was an elected official, and the veracity of my victory was called into question, I’d be highly distressed. I would be especially horrified by any suggestion of vote tampering, or any form of finagling with registration records, inhibition of voters being able to vote when they attempt to, basically any hint of impropriety in the process.
Yes, all y’all who might point this out, it’s about as likely that I would get elected to office as it would be for me to flap my arms and fly to the moon, I’m being hypothetical.
But my point is, short of focusing on victory at any cost, what kind of officeholder wouldn’t be distressed at the possibility that his or her win was illegitimate? Would not any person with a shred of conscience get a chill of horror when CNN or whomever broadcasts the reported suspicion that the election they had just won was called into doubt because of electoral improprieties? Felonious improprieties, I might add?
I can hear it now: “President-elect Kuya’s winning of the states of Ohio and Florida have been called into severe question by representatives of the opposition party, who claim that data from voting machines was lost or perhaps even deleted, and that the ballots collected from several counties in each state were not included in the total in order to tip the balance in Kuya’s favor. The validity of the entire election has been put into doubt in the minds of millions.”
After I got done choking in dismay (but before I woke up from my weird dream of winning the presidency), I’d like to be able to say, “Recount! Get the real numbers! And if anyone has been caught fiddling with the voting process, throw their asses in jail.”
Sorry, I know character and integrity are out of fashion, but I guess I got hypnotized by all that crap my parents taught me. I’ll have to get with the program.
To close, one last point is that every time an election appears not to have been carried out in a straight-up, totally correct manner, it just discourages people from voting next time around. Young people especially are more likely to say, “Fuck it, the whole game is rigged.” If that’s not damaging to the national culture and to democracy as a paradigm, I don’t know what is!
It’s more than out of fashion, Kuya. We’re dealing with pathologies when we’re dealing with this administration. They don’t care. They don’t care. They don’t care.
You can save a lot of energy by not expecting them to, or trying to get them to act as if they did. They’re going to attack whatever country they want to attack. Give the corporations what ever they want to give them. Jail and torture whoever they want for whatever reason. Kill whoever they want for any price (it’s on the taxpayers’ tab). And fix any election however they want.
And just like the radical, violent, Islamic fundamentalists and assorted rich-kid power mongerers to the east, they will depend on the uneducated, functionally illiterate, scared working-sheep to defend them.
Bush’s real base is the pathologically selfish and rich, alcoholics, and the children of alcoholics. This administration is dependent on a large class of parasites and enablers. There’s only one group here that is going to be served, and I’m sure you can tell which.
Don’t mean to be a bummer, but pretty soon, I think we’ll find this country spinning out of control and we’ll feel nostalgic for the times when there were elections to fix.
I hope I’m wrong.
Yup, I hope so too kiddo.
If only there was a real opposition party with some popular steam behind it, or some kind of antithetical movement that had a prayer of inspiring more than a few people. But I see nothing of the kind.
Pathological, indeed. So is the junkfood-addicted, Prozac-gargling, TV-hypnotized, porn-fixated, fuel-guzzling, race-warring, short-sighted society getting the “democracy” it deserves?
I almost erased that question before I posted it. It scared me.
It’s not that there are not the people or the ideas, it is that they have no access to the Programming. The only source which can get through to these ninnies (Hi Tina1), is the television, and to a lesser degree the MSM newspapers, but only if they agree with the television.
When did John Fogerty write “I know it’s true, cause I heard it on TV”?
So you have a great set of ideas, and a plan, you have a handfull of devoted followers. Now try and get your message out. The first thing that happens is you’re ignored, but with some money and determination, some taleneted people you can get some media coverage. Fine and dandy until you actually get noticed by anybody, then you are just meat. The media will distort and crudify the whole message, they will find some simple angles and crucify you as fast or as slowly as the Big parties rerquire to make most use of what you are doing. They can actually play you separately on their own behalf, white anting your followers by adopting some of your words, and at the same time, control what are percieved to be your words within the media.
There is no easy way out guys.
Rabbit has thought long and hard about it, and invites anybody else to do the same, but with a complicit media and almost complete control, thus carte blanche to do what they want, and a massive number of zombies who will follow and do whatever they are told through the picture tube, how the hell do you propose the right people can be heard?
Hi there Kuya, good to see you about, when are you ready for some more installments before the final revelation of Rabbit’s theory of Man’s evolution?
Kuya is another shiny one Wiley.
Hi Kuya, good to see you about.
Ola, lapine comrade, been a while…
Please send any evo stuff to my email, always interested.
You make a good point about limited ability to access mass media equaling limited influence in the public sphere. If you aint on the tube, you aint shit, politically. I’ve come to semi-believe that what’s needed is someone with huge money resources in their own name who will bulldog their way into the public eye, pushing a progressive line through their own snazzy, upbeat, impossible-to-ignore program. Someone with charisma, integrity, photogenic qualities, and who actually believes that the value of benefitting people at large across the planet outweighs the value of manipulating politico-economic conditions in favor of his or her cronies. Someone relentless, fearless, beholden to no Big Party, who is able to persuade Joe and Jane Blow to abandon thoughtlessness and blank-out ignorance of the eroding living conditions that too many endure daily.
How’s that for a recipe for social change and diversion away from Big Party poli-tricks? Can’t think of one single applicant for the role, among 6M+ living people. Can you?
However, to give up is to sharpen the enemies’ blades with our own hands, and that we must never do, so we do what fringey progressives must do which is to plod along and try to deflate the Mass Tricksters’ balloons whenever possible. While, of course, avoiding the more silly-assed aspects of the progressive fringe, who are good for comedy relief but not much else. There isn’t any zillionaire inspirer out there, so that leaves individual people chipping away at the edifice of gobble-it-up-just-in-case-there’s-no-Rapture irrationality.
So whether it’s getting rid of hackable election machines, outlawing discriminations over lovestyles, mandating responsibility for one’s pollutions or scrapping market-freaking subsidies that bully down small producers, it’s an evolutionary process (to come full circle from your post, Rabbit), slow and fitful, often appearing incomprehensible or out-of-step with the Miss Grundys of the world.
To get heard, you keep talking. To get seen, you keep showing up. To influence others, you keep learning and teaching. Uphill climb, yes, but continued effort is what makes one stronger.
The Big Parties have it easy. They can afford to build an escalator while some of us have to climb the hill with our feet and hands. But that’s why they’ve become morally and intellectually slothful. Listen to guys like Ted Kennedy or Ted Stevens (US Senators on opposite sides of the two-headed Big Party, Sir Rabbit), and you wonder sometimes what the hell’s going on in their heads. You wonder whether they belong in a home for retarded adults. It’s because they’ve lost any sharpness or alertness they may once have had. Lost the ideal of leaving it better than they found it, which both once had long, long ago.
And they’re all over the tube, so they really are the shit, politically.
We’ll just keep pushing. What else can we do?
Unless you know some zillionaire inspirer who wants to take the mf’rs on…?
Oh boy did I want to puke watching the Democrats run up to the camera and shoot themselves in the foot trying to look “tough” with Alito. The worse part is MSM describing the questioning as “tough” and he was “grilled”. I’d be tougher interviewing a babysitter.
They’re all soft. Hey, am I annoying yet? How about this—-they’re all a bunch of pussies!
What question scared you, Kuya?
As far as the money goes, it’s like wanting to live in a world without cars, and then deciding to drive there. It may sound harsh, but I honestly believe that most Americans aren’t going to “get” anything until they’ve learned the hard way and money becomes a whole lot less important than food or shelter.
Many Americans, and everyone in Congress (and the administration, of course) have forgotten what we really work for.
Hi wiley,
“So is the junkfood-addicted, Prozac-gargling, TV-hypnotized, porn-fixated, fuel-guzzling, race-warring, short-sighted society getting the
I’m wondering if the media might simply ignore a war on Iran. Just not talk about it and hope that nobody notices. It is certainly not easy to strike up a conversation about it.
Maybe it’s not polarized enough yet? The spin machine is running behind?
Sigh.
The truth is liberals and/or anti-Bush whoevers want to believe that someone cheated them so they can make an excuse for losing an election. I can understand some bitterness a few months post-election but to continue on for this long is totally unbelievable. It is actually pretty immature.
It all comes back to liberals having to be right 100% of the time, and something that they don’t necessarily like or agree with HAS to be wrong. Sure, Bush hasn’t done his job perfectly and I, as a conservative, am willing to admit the man has flaws. It does no one any good to constantly bicker over things that are over and done with. If you want a change, work for a change.
I voted in Ohio and we used punch card ballots. I was 18 years old at the time and I woke up very early to get to the polls to avoid long lines. If the Democrats want to complain about long lines they should have taken the initiative and got out of bed so they could avoid that situation. If John Kerry had won, there would be no outcry against the voting machines because the liberals got their way.
The only reason conservatives complained in 1960 was because dead people somehow managed to register and vote in the election.
There is no conspiracy to disenfranchise anyone and until difinitive proof (not just liberal claims) is found, just stop talking about it.
You must be the grand-poo-bah of….something.
...just stop talking about it…. Don’t tell me, you’re studying law, right. The truth is… blah, blah, blah.
If you and tina1 are not the same then you two might want to hook up.
Great post andrew ...
Liberals keep screaming that they want fair elections, if that is so, then why are they against laws that require voters to show an ID to vote?
Republicans want voters to show an ID to vote. Libs say that descriminates against certain people. WHO?
Everyone has to have an ID today. If someone doesn’t have a drivers licence, then they have a state ID. Do you know anyone who doesn’t have an ID?
The only reason liberals are against voters having to show an ID is because then they can’t cheat.
With Roberts and Alito in the Supreme Court we don’t have to worry about these stupid liberals trying push their agendas thru the courts anymore.
HEY LIBERALS ... DO YOU LIKE APPLES?
WELL, THE SUPREME COURT IS NOW TILTED TO THE RIGHT .... AS IT SHOULD BE.
HOW DO YOU LIKE THEM APPLES?
Tina1, I’m so glad you and andrew have found each other. It must be very hard to make it appear that you represent the majority when you are all alone.
Haven’t you noticed, Tina1? You’re never really part of the conversation.
How do you like them apples?
And today’s tina topic is “I.D.s”
Are you over 18? I get the impression that you are not an adult. Do your parents know you’re….that’s it! Your parents are democrats, right? You’re over here instead of working things out with your parents?
Good luck. Just for good measure, you might want to look up Asberger’s Syndrome. It’s a form of high functioning autism that includes total social cluelessness.
Am I over 18? Well yes I am obviously since I voted in the election. But you would probably say I wasn’t but that I voted illegally for the Republicans. All you say is blah blah blah because you have nothing intelligent to say.
I know some intelligent liberals and they are alright in my book because they don’t make rediculous claims. And no I’m not studying law or anything, I just have common sense and know when people are talking out of their asses.
Why do you think there is some conspiracy whenever something doesn’t go the way you wanted it to? It is stupid to think that. Anyone with any common sense would realize they are making themselves look ignorant and stupid by posting the things that some are posting on here. Just because you are not right does not make a conspiracy against you. You have no proof, so stop making claims that can’t be backed up.
My mother, and my late father, are and were conservatives and I am very much an adult. Lastly, your ad hominem arguments mean nothing and make you seem more out of touch with reality. Just face the facts. George Bush won and you are pissed about it. Don’t make things up to justify your anger.
You Republicans are never talking to anyone in particular, you just spout empty rants about the stereotypes you make up. It’s a lot like talking out your asses isn’t it? lmao.
YOU ARE TALKING OUT YOUR ASSES>>>>> YOU REPUBLICAN MORONS ALWAYS THINK YOU’RE IN CONTROL BECAUSE YOU TALK LIKE YOU ARE! lol.
You Repuclicans don’t know me or anyone else here, you’re all a bunch of useless sycophantic twits that are ALWAYS complaining about liberals because actually discussing issues is too much of an intellectual challenge for you. lol.
You retarded dip shit Republicans only bring up facts as supposed examples for supposed arguments that are still nothing but anti-liberal rants? lol. ALWAYS A STUPID RANT ABOUT THE “LIBERALS” YOU MAKE UP>>>>>>.LOL.
You dumb ass Republicans are always holier-than-thou nincompoops that don’t understand that your little reign is nothing more than a drop of piss in a bucket of your own shit. You Republicans are living in your little fantasy posts where you’re all the little kings of your dungheap. lol.
You Republicans are always angry. lol. You republicans are antisocial assholes that are in love with the smell of your own farts.lol.
And it’s not enough for you social misfit Republicans to spout your mindless horseshit amongst yourselves, you go around shitting on everyone elses’ porch. LOL.
IN THE END THOUGH, WHO NEEDS THE OTHER THE MOST? YOU STUPID PIG REPUBLICANS APPARENTLY NEED LIBERALS MORE THAN THEY NEED YOU. LOL..
THIS JUST PROVES THAT REPUBLICANS ARE MENTALLY ILL. LOL.
And you can prove that you’re not angry, look at all those lol’s.
http://michellemalkin.com/archives/003801.htm
Yeah, you really addressed some issues there in your post wileywitch. If you had read my post you wouldn’t have spouted off like you did. You are nothing but a hypocrite.
Tina - Andrew, Rabbit cannot tell them apart so rather than just say Tina and Andrew or Tinaandrew or something ridiculous Rabbit will take the liberty of refferring to you as Tiny Shrew.
Tiny Shrew
With YOUR Ad-hominem and silly “Nhah Nhah Nhah, we won so there get over it”, does perhaps have the advantage for you of allowing you to post something which may make you feel you are contributing…or not. The line fails to address anything of what is bothering anybody whether you wish to label them as Liberals, Communists or just Wankers, about George Dubya. For example I, who am an Rabbit from the land of Oz, hate and loathe the Shrub with if not equal then even greater venom than any who may be fortunate enough to be able to count themselves lucky enough to be among the illustrious company of your apparent Nemesis…..LIBERALS.
Not only I but most people from most places in the world, these days hate and despise the POTUS you have currently allowed to float to the top of the Cesspool of that farcical, insane carnival of deception and mass hysteria, you call politics in America. Not unlike politics in the FEW countries who still officially at least want to know you, like us, Britain and Oz. Yet yours in on a grander and many times multiplied scale of idiocy and deception.
Bush, for all his lack of awareness of the world around him, his blind and arrogant hubris, his lack of empathy for his fellow man, And not least his assumption that he is owed everything just because he is, is the logical result of the lowest common denominator floating to the top of what we can ALL very clearly percieve is your society.
It is not small and timid thinker, Tiny Shrew: it is not because Bush won or even for that matter because he cheated in doing so, which is history spin it how you will. The reason people, of not only Liberal American persuasion but of every race creed and country are not very happy right now, is because Bush is a complete lunatic, a stupid, profane and ultimately irresponsible lame brained failure at everything he has ever done. Unless you count Fucking up the USA economically and socially, making the USA into a combination satanic empire and a sad laughing stock nation of crackpots in the eyes of not just your assigned Muslim foes, but even your FORMER friends would rather go with China or Russia these days rather than allow you wackjobs to pull too many more insanely dangerous and greedy stunts.
It isn’t Bush that is the problem, he is just a ninny, a scapegoat and ultimately a sacrifice.
I Rabbit will tell you all what is GOING to happen. In the next election, the Repugs will probably be on their knees, assuming that Martial Law is not declared between now and then, in which case there won’t be a next election, get used to that idea, because it would seem a fair to be a 50% probability from here, that you’ll get Martial Law before the next election, in which case it’s game over. Tina1 will be saying what she likes, but any chance anyone will dare engage her will be done. Isn’t that good Tina, you’ll be able to say whatever the TV tells you to say and nobody will argue with you because to do so will see them dissapear, possibly forever.
If the next election becomes a reality then my guess is, no matter what any of you vote, the person you will get is already decided, it will be Hillary Clinton, like it or not, and the Repugs will almost certainly screaming that the voting machines were rigged. And they will almost certainly be right. In this manner the controversy over the voting irregularities will conveniently be deflated, in the small and unimaginative minds of mainstream America. (That’s you Tiny Shrew)
It will become a normal part of the after election scene for the losing side to scream the other side had the machines rigged. TOO easy now for the masters to play dualities.
Basically you’re screwed America.
Thanks to nitwits like Tiny Shrew, Tina1 or Andrew, I don’t care what yourname is you are a moron, a complete Dittohead, a lamebrained sheeple, you drink the Koolaid, you sound like you were weaned on the Koolaid and you probably have so much bullshit in your head you could grow a years supply of potatoes for a small Irish town.
It also seems that Rabbit lost a little post to Wiley.
Wiley din’t you notice that Andrew replied directly to your direct question to Tina1?
It’s not a very bright moron, but it could also be a Shill, playing tricks like multiple personalities. Not a Troll this one, something either more mundane or more sinister.
What a choice. Don’t go getting yourself banned over such a ninny with a gender issue.
Talk to it about Abramoff instead, and see if it spins the official line which tries to spread the BS around for all to share.
Oh Wiley
Rabbit knows something about the Tiny Shrew. Dave when he sees it will too.
Notice how the Tiny Shrew spoke to itself, there did we?
Great post andrew ...
Familiar Dave?
Kuya, The rabbit’s computer died a terrible flame and smoke type death courtesy of the powersurge from hell.
With it went his address book for emails. Have been hoping for a word from you so as to be able to reply, would you drop Rabbit a line sometime so he has the address again please?
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