Backdoor Draft, Back Again

Ludicrous.

“The basis of this is not a national emergency,” says one officer, who echoed the sentiments of the group. “What this is is poor personnel planning.”

Poor Planning? The IRR is a legitimate manpower tool that has been in place since at least the time I left active duty and had 2 years on IRR 20 yearas ago. How can it be called poor planning if it is used in accordance with the plan? There are no restrictions on the military’s use of it and anyone on IRR who thinks there is, is being just plan stupid.

Sounds like typical foxhole bitchin’ to me.

I guess it’s getting harder to find a few good men.

“When I was in the army, it was clear that if you’re in the IRR, the only time you’re going to go off to war is World War III,”

Maybe World War III has arrived in the here and now and we are just seeing the opening acts.

There is debate on when WW II actually started.

When did the second world war start being called World War II ?

Our nation is finessing the issue of fielding an Army/Navy/Air Force, taking advantage of it’s ‘volunteers’ by invoking emergency clauses in contracts when it can’t meet manpower requirements through it’s established procedures. 

While I have no doubt that the military establishment is doing everything in it’s power to meet the mission, I wonder if the political establishment would be able to make up the missions if they had to deal with voters who might actually be sent to this, or any other, war.

Jay Cline,

I do hope that you yourself have actually served in the military or are currently on active duty or on Reserve or Guard call-up to go pissing on our active-duty members like that.  If you are a military man yourself, you have my respect, even if you’re still wrong with your characterization.  The men and women being called up in the IRR were indeed given indications that they were done with their service *and they served their country honorably* for many years and multiple tours of duty.  They’ve given far, far more to our country than most Americans, and the upper echelons in the army have been less than forthcoming with the way the IRR is being called up, with a lot of dissembling and obfuscation going on. 

The recruiters bringing in the fresh boots have to be abundantly clear to the prospective recruits what to expect, the terms of their service and the *actual purpose of the IRR*-- i.e., no fine print like by a used-car salesman, no sketchy promises, no bullshit.  If there is indeed a chance for the IRR to be activated short of an all-out invasion by the Russians or Iranians of US soil, that needs to be spelled out very clearly at the beginning before the signature, with no misunderstandings.  Without this very clear mutual understanding, and the resulting sense of deception among the service members, the ultimate result is that would-be recruits in future army recruiting drives decide that they can’t trust the army and Marine recruiters to be forthright about the terms, that there may be some sneaky little fine point hiding under the radar screen-- and that kills our ability to recruit soldiers for future operations. 

OTOH if you are not or have not served in the military before, then you are a lazy fucktard, a cowering, sniveling loser to be sitting in your cozy armchair launching epithets at our brave soldiers dodging bullets in Iraq and Afghanistan on multiple tours for years while their spouses and kids are stuck at home.  If indeed you are not a servicemember yourself, then go and get your ass out to your local recruiter’s office immediately and sign yourself up to ship out to Iraq, or encourage your relatives to do so if you’re not of age.  If you actually believe in the Iraq campaign enough to hurl your spew at our soldiers actually out there doing the fighting and the bleeding in that desert shithole, then you of all people should be one of the people who goes out and serves yourself, especially since we have such a manpower shortage as it is.  Otherwise, you’re a loser and a hypocrite.  Just shut up, get off your armchair, and go fight.

Skull,

Active duty:

Dec 15, 1983 - Dec 14, 1987.

Bitburg AB, Germany, 36TFW 525 AMU.

IRR:

Dec 15, 1987 - Dec 14, 1989

For what is is worth. I personally don’t believe one needs military credentials to have a voice in such debates.

But I do appreciate your respect.

There’s a lot here…

First, there’s the issue of the soldiers not reading the contract.  When I joined the service (in 1990, serving through 1996), I read the contract end to end before signing it.  It gave the recruiters no end of heartburn, especially when I challenged their claims and forced them to be honest.  The personal responsibility issue is clear; if you sign a contract and are not personally responsible enough to read and understand it first, perhaps you ought not be signing anything.

On the other hand, Skull has a point..  Namely, that Jay is certainly able to go and re-enlist, and folks who are still eligible for re-enlistment and do not (preferring, for whatever reason, to have others fight and die for lies) do come off as hypocritical.

Jay, to his credit, does have a point in that there is definitely an inflammatory character to this.  I know personally of a few IRR folks who were nowhere near the end of their obligations and got called back.  The article makes no effort to show that element.

Of course, last and CERTAINLY not least, is the issue of the responsibility of the government.  While the soldiers have a personal responsibility, we have to also assign blame to the 600+ so-called “leaders” on Capitol Hill who CHOSE to accept, and CONTINUE to accept, lies that are comfortable instead of fulfilling their responsibility to their troops and FIGHT to bring them home… It is the responsibility of the government to provide for the common defense and promote the general welfare.  (Read the Constitution, Congress!) War and Occupation based on lies do the exact opposite. 

So, to sum up:

1) The soldiers are unfortunate victims of their own irresponsibility.  All they saw (I noted most in the article were officers) was a “free ride” to go to college… and not the fine print of the contract.
2) Individuals who are capable of enlisting, or perhaps sending their own children to die if they feel so strongly about this (Congress?  Hello?) choose not to…
3) The article is biased towards an inflammatory conclusion.
4) The Government lied these soldiers into a war for conquest, occupation, and profit… And does NOTHING to fulfill its explicit obligation to the population (which includes the soldiers) to NOT throw lives and blood away for profit.

Ite Romanii Domun!  :)

Skullcrusher

The Jay Bird is a complete ignoramus, posing, small minded Nazi apologist for anything which makes him feel superior to anyone who isn’t a white American Sheep Brained twit.

In short he is a Troll, and a most uncommonly stupid one at that.  Just a heads up.

As if being enlisted once made him a man.  Being a worm at heart Jay expects to get a medal at least once a year because someone American once faught some Nazi’s. 

Of course he is blind to the fact that he is today one of the Nazis!

Shades of Knight, may Rabbit call you SOK?  (Sorry)

Just repeating Jay DeCline is the lowest common denominator on ITT.  Which means his opinions are the lowest cast and most lard brained official ditto in circulation.  Jay is a Moron, although to show some appreciation of his incredible efforts in self insemination, we have generally awarded him the title of Troll, and he is thus an honorary Troll. 

You are welcome to beat the twerp about his soft and fluffy head, and the sites squatters like rabbit and others will be happy to cheer you on.  In truth he has absorbed all of our insults and is still as fresh as the day he popped up on ITT, declaring his abslute superiority.

Watch out for his self projections, these often curve so sharply back upon himslef that an incautious soul could lose and eye, leaving them with the same number of eyes as Jay.

Since Jay hasn’t really clarified his position on the whole scene, the helpful rabbit shall do so for him..

Jay Bird is 100% in favour of anything which makes him feel safer from all the terrible Muslim Extremists and Islamic Fundamentalists who are crawling over each other to get across the border and closer to his delusional world of make believe where George Bush is the King of the castle, and Jay Jay is the Queen....

Oh and he is very, very wise too, he has a blog which explains this very clearly.  He is so wise that he is his own reference source.  He posts to his own blog as a source for anything he may post which needs a source.

Oops, feisty and furious Rabbit has erred.

Jay links to his site but posts here instead.

What Rabbit meant when he posted his words.

Was that Jay thinks truth grows out of a turd..

Rabbit wrote:

“Was that Jay thinks truth grows out of a turd”

I would humbly suggest to the Rabbit that fields covered in rich fertilizer will feed millions.  ;)

All I meant in the nod to Jay was simply that I will not dismiss an opinion as patently silly or untrue based solely on source.  If a pathological liar tells you he’s lying, is he? 

Ite Romanii Domun!  :)

Shades,

First, as I said, I do not believe prior or current military status has any relevance on who is allowed to opine thoughts.

This is a democracy, not Imperial Rome.

If that is to be a requirement, then I guess I DO have the authority to select who is allowed to speak and who isn’t. Since I allow all, the point is moot.

Second, unfortunately, I do not have the option to reenlist.

There are age requirements, even in the Reserve and Guard.

Third, even if I could reenlist, I and my generation did our bit. To raise charges of hypocrisy is, well, the ultimate hypocrisy.

Should only those who pay taxes in the highest tax brackets decide what that highest tax bracket should be?

Rabbit,

If I thought truth sprouted from turds, then this site would and should be declared the Oracle.

David,

When did WWII actually start? Has WW3 already started?

Time will prove, I am sure, the truly prophetic quality of your words.

Cline,
You have not commented on the use of white phosphorous use on the city of Fallujah. I take your silence as tolerant of these methods as necessary in the war to terrorize. If you justify or defend these methods, I will have no choice but to address you as as a criminal. So far out of your posts I have gathered your glorification of state propaganda, defense of war crimes, a sadistic tone reminiscent of the guards at Auschwitz, and “just following orders” covers all crimes…even magnificent ones.
War crimes caught on tape are nothing more than pure joyful entertainment for Mr. Cline and scorp. He considers them war porn. Usually men like him can be found and imprisoned. But sometimes, with the help of maniacs like scorp and Cline, they can be elected. He might even recognize his co patriots...Ted Bundy or Charles Manson. I never thought I would have the opportunity to interact and study this mindset until now. Thank you Mr. scorp and Mr. Cline for volunteering as the test subjects.
Now, as you were saying Cline, please continue on so I can log your responses into a case study of sycophantic radical behavior that has wreaked havoc and descended as a plague on mankind.
Lay back on the couch Mr. Cline and please continue on when you were abruptly interrupted with the truth. Tell us about these terrorist voices in your head and continue on about how bringing the gift of carnage and destruction is a part of your just cause to bring peace. I do agree with you that if you kill off everyone, the world will appear rather peaceful and you will not have to approach complicated matters as if nails requiring a hammer. Continue on. No, no, no, Mr. Cline, none is calling you a psychopath. Just tell us about these voices again. OK, everyone that disagrees is a conspiritologist. Hmm, I see. Hold on while I log your responses to share with my colleagues. Please share your thoughts....the world awaits this vital interview for you to enlighten us of the error of our ways. Please enlighten us infidels of your democratic cause and tell us about all the freedoms your bringing to our world. OK, Pinochet, Mao, Stalin, Hitler.... OK, are these your only examples of your cult of personality that you seek to emulate and impose on the world? Hold on while I write this down. Without your war on drugs you would be unable to murder hundreds of thousands of women and children in South America, arm dictators, support a privatized prison industry, and steal others resources thus explaining your adoration for Negropante, Eliot Abrahms, and Henry Kissinger. Duly noted...as you were saying… ignore the truth and bring the pain as a pestilence to destroy the last remnants of humanity....your using the euphemism of freedom. Got it. To help quell dissent to your diabolical agenda, you passed the Freedom Initiative...mandatory forced psychological testing and enforced drugging of all school children to make the next generation more pliant to the propaganda. What was that Mr. scorp...you got the idea from Stalin. Noted...continue on please about your Maoist tendencies. Did you enjoy the war porn I sent you? I see your getting excited...please do not do that in the office Mr. Cline...disgusting...please put it back. Now, as you were saying?

Rabbit lies?
Revisionist?
You never addressed one of my previous posts listing facts concerning the day of 911, the downing street minutes, secret gulags, and now crushing children’s testicles is considered OK. And again, you cower behind the skirt of big brother. Remaining a bootlicker will not save you. Study the night of the brown shirts when even the elite turned against their useful idiots after they have served their interests.
Again, our service members did not agree to fight in an illegal war and participate in an illegal occupation. But to bootlickers, this morsel of truth is an affront on their desired wars. This is not an assumption as you view war crimes in Fallugah as war porn. Who is a revisionist now? Preplanned war with Afghanistan as reported prior to 911 and this is treated as nonexistent tripe to be ignored should it interfere with your glutinous genocide.
To quote your fuhrer, “Bring it on.”
This is no rabbit, but an American patriot rising up against modern Goebbels.  I will stand up against this carnival of mahem instituting police state mechanisms and systems to attack and break down the societal structure inherent in the Bill of Rights. Grease your treads, prepare your Blitzkrieg, and storm the wall of truth. It will not falter.
What do you have to say Trotskyite, Likudite, stausscon, neocon trash? You and your NWO will not win. You just may get your WWIII, but I still plan to take out the trash.
Signed,
Follower of the wisdom of the founding fathers,
Beowulf

Jay,

I never said that you weren’t allowed to opine. 

However, since you brought it up, you must admit that there is a weighting that is granted or revoked to the opinions spouted based on circumstance… after all, I don’t know if I’d trust a theologian’s opinions on why my air conditioner doesn’t work… ;)

To your second point, you are unlikely to be ineligible to re-enlist given the dates of your enlistment (unless your first enlistment was at the very end of the eligibility period, of course).  Further, there are other paths than military… remember the “Americorps” that have been on the table?  There’s also plenty of mercenary work in that sector of the world… you don’t have to be an official member of the US Military to be participating in it if you believe strongly enough…

To your third point, I only would suggest that if one truly believes in something, their “bit” never really ends.  The ultimate honor is adhering to your principles to death… not just for a set period of relative peace.  Those who hold to principles and march out to defend them are ever (IMO) less hypocritical than those (*cough* Congress *cough*) who will send OTHERS to back up their alleged “principles.”

Deeds, not Words, friend.  Words are cheap.  I see precious few Congressmen hustling their OWN kids down to the recruitment station…

Ite Romanii Domun!  :)

Just a short note Beowulf…

You claim that our service members did not sign up to fight an illegal war… Unfortunately, that is untrue.  As yet, none of them have been drafted, and so therefore entered into a contract… their irresponsibility in not reading the contract first doesn’t make their involvement less their fault.

Both sides are at fault, friend… Congress for sending them, and them for signing up blindly.

Oingo Boingo - Little Guns

Tiny people, with little guns
Little armies march, to little drums
What do they want?
What do they want?

Tiny soldiers, with little guns
Little tanks, no bigger than your thumb
They want you

Little people, with tiny brains
Little bullets flowing, in their veins
What do they want?
What do they want?

Tiny people with little guns
Little armies march, to little drums
They want you, you
You, you, you, you

Little airplanes, with tiny bombs
Little squadrons, dropping thimbles of Napalm
They want you

What do they want?
What do they want?

Tiny people, with little guns
Little armies march, to little drums
You, you
You, you, you, you

Tiny people, little guns
Tiny people, little guns
Tiny people, little guns

Shades,

By claiming that the validity of ones opinions is “weighted” merely on a “putting one’s money where ones mouth is” is indeed prejudging the right to opine.

As far as being unable to reup because age, dude, I have already checked (hint: in 1983, I was almost too old for active duty, so you need to redo your math).

Which, if one accepts your third point, that does indeed answer it.

I do not accept your third point, and since I have not only offered deeds as well as words, and am still willing, then I, sir, by your criteria, again have the right to claim what weight is weighted.

And I believe I have already dismissed that point on my own authority, as you have given to me.

David,

So what do big people with no guns do when those little people come marching down your street?

Pacifism is a dead-end philosophy when taken to extremist Jainist views.

Once the war was exposed as a fraud and the lies exposed as such, the war becomes unconstitutional and in my opinion negates all contracts. I left the service understanding that I participated in a genocidal act that serves to line the pockets of the rich. I believe all service members have the right to walk away right now. This war was based on lies and worse, the longer we stay there the more likely this war will expand into a much broader conflict. The war drums are now beating for Iran and Syria with Russia now publicly arming both AND making public declarations that they will come to the defense of Syria. Madness only breeds more madness. Calmer heads need to prevail or we will enter into World War III.
As a side note, the use of depleted uranium is poisoning both our troops and the Iraqi people and one of the greatest threats to us all. In my service contract, I did not volunteer to be poisoned with heavy metals. We now have 12,000 dead gulf war deaths with many more to follow. Research DU and find the sad truth to the matter. ShadesofKnight probably is well aware of this and I am sure understands the gravity of the situation we live in.

“Military people are dumb stupid animals to be used as pawns in our foreign policy.” - Henry Kissinger

One thing being ignored here is that the right to speak is not the same as being right.

If they were the same, then everyone here would have to accept the fact that the war in Iraq was the right thing to do.

Why? Because those who are serving are reuping in record numbers. If it was the wrong thing to do, if the fight was not just, then why are they reuping?

Yes, I know. It is a facetious argument.

That is my point.

Here’s some perspective on the article by Mr. Hayes as I was interviewed, though my story is not included.  The issue is how the army is manipulating their authority to grab and maintain beyond contracts.  I will say with certainty that I for one new my entire obligation was for 8 years.  This is well detailed in the contract (mine was via ROTC and an enlisted contract that accompanied it).  What I have issue with is this:  the army leaves it entirely up to a soldier to know what their obligations may or may not be beyond the 8 years.  You will not find any language in any contract that states as an officer you are considered still in the army even after your 8 year MSO is complete unless you resign your commission.  IRR officers don’t have a chain of command or the army regulations to refer to, nor do they have regular communications with the army.  What we have is our contract to refer to and nowhere does it say beyond the 8.  The army is no doubt running queries of its officer corp IRR members and grabbing those who are nearing the end of their 8 years.  They supply them with orders then claim the unit stop loss policy allows them to grab and hold beyond 8 years.  I personally disagree with the belief that as an IRR member, the only way you get called up is in the case of WWIII.  That’s a bit too far fetched.  But the way the army is abusing the soldiers who volunteered, served and sacrificed their time and are being held beyond 8 is crap. 
Here’s a great example.  An officers 8 years ends say May 10, 2004 but receives orders involuntarily calling him back to serve in Iraq for NLT 18 months on May 6, 2004.  That’s right just 4 days prior to his MSO being complete.  Plus, a full 6 weeks before any announcement was made that the army was enacted an involuntary recall of IRR members and just days before LTC Hilferty makes a quote to the army times that no officer/soldier has been involuntarily called back.  Better yet, there’s no MOS specific stop loss applicable to this officer that would grant the army authority to hold them beyond 8 years.  Here’s an even better twist to this story...when this officer left active duty via resigning his active duty commission, he was given instructions in writing that he was being offered a reserve appointment and needed to execute an oath of office with in 90 days if accepting it or the appointment would be cancelled.  Well this officer declined it and never executed that oath with in the 90 days prescribed.  Accordingly, the HRC staff in St. Louis claims as a result said officer is no considered an enlisted soldier in the IRR instead.  FF to 2002, the former officer goes to a local reserve unit to inquire about serving, states to the commander that he isn’t sure what rank he is due to his declination of the reserve appointment and still having a few years left on his MSO.  The commander tells him to just sign a new oath and “We’ll take care of it and get you in here as an officer” - so he does.  Well, 4-6 weeks later when he shows up for his first drill he gets this oath back to find out the army/commander backdated the oath so it read dated July 1999 (falling into the 90 day he had to execute his original oath for his reserve appointment).  By Army regs - the oath should have been invalidated but it wasn’t; the army used it as it’s authority to grab this officer/soldier with only 4 days left on his MSO. 

Yes, it’s typical fox hole bullshit isn’t it?  I want to personally thank the army for making me regret the opportunity I took to serve my country.  I loved the military and my time that I served and those I served with.  I always said had I had 5-6 months or so left, I would have gladly; well, not gladly, but would have served as asked.  But the way I was treated and how they went to such lengths to try and grab me just turned me sour against the whole thing.  I am very bitter!

BTW - The army did not pay me one dime towards my education so I don’t fall under the free ride comments out there either.  The proof of the backdating is obvious, there are two different oath of office forms out there the one dated was one unavailable to me when I left active duty plus the army date/time stamped the FORGED oath when it was received - April 2002.

Thanks for posting this article on a subject that is, well, near and dear to my heart. I, like the subjects of the article, am a 1998 Army commissionee. The Army has been deceitful and disloyal about its use of the IRR from the get go. There has been no slowing down of IRR recalls, rather they have spaced them out after the recall en masse fiasco in the summer of 2004. In other words, calling back a couple of dozen guys here and there, spread over 50 states, goes unnoticed by the public at lrage.

LTC Pamela Hart is a lying piece of shit who disgraces the uniform, her rank and the soldiers that have to salute her (me among them). Her characterization of who is in the “114,000 IRR members” is completely misleading. First off, the Army only commissions around 5,400 new AD 2LTs a year among its three commissioning sources. Over 1/2 of these folks stay after their initial OBV (obligated volunteer) tour ends. That means there are maybe, maybe 8 or 9,000 CPTs in the IRR right now and probably less than 1,000 1LTs (given the 38 month CPT promotion currently in effect). That number of folks is the entire “barrel” we have to scrape from. For starters, the Army Reserve is over 5,000 CPTs short in drilling TPU positions and has over 3,700 LT vacancies. the ARNG has over 4,700 CPT/LT vacancies. The bottom line: even if we recalled every IRR CPT/LT in the inventory, we could not even cover down on the existing personnel holes. This is why any allegation that IRR recalls will “slow down” is a God Damn lie. In currently deploying NG and USAR battalions, over 65% of the officer cohort are cross-levels or IRR Recalls. The wheels have come off the train.

The recall of officers months before their MSO expiration has been going on for a while and is in poor form. Despite that, all resignations must be approved by the Army and word on the street is - contrary to Army propaganda - that without a combat tour in Iraq or A’stan, you probably won’t get out at the 8 year mark.

I, like so many others, hold our breath and hope for the best. we have served our nation and since discharge in ‘02 I’ve graduated Law School, passed the bar exam and will complete my MPH degree this May. We’ve done our time and if this cause is so “vital” we had damn well better make a call for shared sacrifice. Talk is Cheap!

** For the record, I also received no financial assistance for college in exchange for my service.

Re:  Backdoor Draft, Back Again
By Christopher Hayes
In These Times

Thursday 12 January 2006

“The IRR was last called up was during the first Gulf War. But then, soldiers were deployed to backfill Army positions in Germany and other bases rather than deployed directly into the combat theater.”

This above statement is false.  I have done draft and GI rights counseling since the Viet Nam era, and counselors all over the country including me worked with many IRR call-ups to the front lines in the first Gulf War.  Very disturbing to see this distortion of historical fact.

Re:  Backdoor Draft, Back Again
By Christopher Hayes
In These Times

Thursday 12 January 2006

“The IRR was last called up was during the first Gulf War. But then, soldiers were deployed to backfill Army positions in Germany and other bases rather than deployed directly into the combat theater.”

This above statement is false.  I have done draft and GI rights counseling since the Viet Nam era, and counselors all over the country, including me, worked with many IRR call-ups to the front lines in the first Gulf War.  Very disturbing to see this distortion of historical fact.

Well Jay Bird, you have done it again you facsist little ponce.

Crapped all over your shoes again.

I guess you’ll just chalk this one up to another great Victory for the man of all seasons, yourself, Jay DeCline.  Scuttle off to a right wing circle jerk and boast about what a super hero you were again.

Anyone notice that most of what he ends up going on about is his right to be heard? 

His right to spout dribble and never prove a word.

Jay is right, Jay is smart, Jay opens his mouth and out comes a fart.

Talking out his britches, keeping us in stitches, you know when he is toast that is when he starts to boast.

......................^^.....................

The Lowest Common Denominator....Stellar Jay, the stain on the dress of America.

Hi Beowulf, glad to see the true patriots and real men standing against the scumbag craven cowards who have have sold the USA for a few years more of comfortable delusions, and who think it is others’ duty to die for whatever imagined cause the Important people like Jay, WTH or Scorpy deem right. 

It looks a lot like Scorpy is hiding out somewhere else these days though.  Sadly Rabbit is without a personal troll anymore, making do as he must with sub-standard morons like Jay who is really Lumens’ Troll. 

If WTH ever matures into a full troll, Rabbit has first bags on him.

My ROTC contract stated that I was liable for the cost of my scholarship prorated at the time of default.

Let’s see:  $80,000 / 96months = $1000/mo

hmmm, 3months left on IRR = $2500

Who do I make the check out to!?

woops. ok, $833.33 per month.  you get the idea.

Catlions,

There is no “distortion” of history in this piece reagrding past use of the IRR. IRR soldiers were NEVER put “on the front lines” in the first Gulf war. Such an assertion is patently false. I don’t care how much “GI Rights counseling” you’ve done - you are wrong. Mr. Hayes has written a wonderful piece that is factually and technically accurate. I know several of the individuals quoted in the article, particularly Kevin O’ Meara.

For your education, I am providing an AAR from an IRR recall Infantry platoon during Gulf War I. In 90-91, IRR recalls were formed into organic platoons with active duty cadre in the event they would be needed as replacements. IRRs at that time were not individual fillers like we see today.

http://www.dean.usma.edu/history/web03/staff rides site/sret pages/gulf war/Papers/Tatarka.htm

Jay asks,

So what do big people with no guns do when those little people come marching down your street?

Stand there and get shot?

Without Blinking

During the civil wars in feudal Japan, an invading army would quickly sweep into a town and take control. In one particular village, everyone fled just before the army arrived - everyone except the Zen master. Curious about this old fellow, the general went to the temple to see for himself what kind of man this master was. When he wasn’t treated with the deference and submissiveness to which he was accustomed, the general burst into anger. “You fool,” he shouted as he reached for his sword, “don’t you realize you are standing before a man who could run you through without blinking an eye!” But despite the threat, the master seemed unmoved. “And do you realize,” the master replied calmly, “that you are standing before a man who can be run through without blinking an eye?”

... from Zen & Tao Stories

Thanks IRR soldier.

There always seems to be someone ready to pounce and call ITT regularly on facts in their articles.  Unless someone knowledgeable is able to correct it this can have consequences.  It is like the Shills watch the site closely, which is what makes it interesting to poke about on by the way.

Heh if the pentagon or it’s shills feel a need as they have on occassion to interfere with issues on the site, then Rabbit is interested.  Being a curious Rabbit and all.

Jay has scarpered I think Dave. 

Let’s see......JAY......JAY BIRD?

Jay Jay?  where are you little troll?

Nup.. he’s run off Dave................^^.........

So, can everybody agree that Rumsfeld’s streamlined military is a flop?

The fact that he is still sec. of the DOD is disgusting.  This guy has been wrong on every decision with running the Iraq war, yet the man is still in charge.  Would shareholders put up w/ such a performance if he was the CEO of their company?  How about if he was a head coach for a college or pro sports team? 
He like our president are a couple of self proclaimed know it all believing only their plan is the right one.  And our soldiers continue to be pawns in their game of ineptness.

He hasn’t got the prize he wants yet---winning a nuclear war with Russia. That may sound over the top, but that was his belief all through the Cold War, and as you have probably noticed, these people don’t change their beautiful minds.

BTW, csmelnix (Hi, csmelnix), Rumsfeld has a private army supported by public funds. He doesn’t care about the soldiers.

Are you familiar with DU? I talked to a V.A. nurse last week who hadn’t heard of it. I gave her the search engine I use (alltheweb.com), and recommended that she simply put depleted uranium in it. When I got home, I did that simple search myself to see how many hits were there--- one million, seven hundred and ninety thousand entries. Yet this nurse had clearly never heard of it.

The nurse had never heard the term “gas-lamping” before either. I told her that I didn’t want to see these troops gas-lamped when they described symptoms of radiation poisoning.

I would recommend to anyone facing the possibility of deployment in countries where we’ve used DU ammunition to avoid it however they can. Anyone who has is well advised to look this up. There have also been studies done on military personnel from Gulf I. One study looked at the high rate of birth defects that have only been seen in victims of radiological contamination. 

Sad, regardless of how a soldier gets to Iraq and/or Aghanistan he/she is likely to die from it. 

I know it’s depressing, but everyone involved has a right to know, so that at least, they can think twice before having children, and so that they might be able to get appropriate treatment on the V.A.s tab. We owe our soldiers that.

Between 1992 and 2000, the Clinton Administration cut national defense by more than half a million personnel.

The Army alone has lost four active divisions and two Reserve divisions. Because of such cuts, the Army has lost more than 205,000 soldiers, or 30 percent of its staff, although its missions have increased significantly throughout the 1990s.

In 1992, the Marine Corps consisted of three divisions. The Corps still has three divisions, but since 1992, it has lost 22,000 active duty personnel, or 11 percent of its total. The Clinton Administration also cut the Marine Corps to 39,000 reserve personnel from 42,300 in 1992.

In 1992, the U.S. Air Force consisted of 57 tactical squadrons and 270 bombers. Today the Air Force has 52 squadrons and 178 bombers. The total number of active personnel has decreased by nearly 30 percent.

In the Navy, the total number of ships has decreased significantly as well. In 1992, there were around 393 ships in the fleet, while today there are only 316, a decrease of 20 percent. The number of Navy personnel has fallen by over 30 percent.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/MissileDefense/BG1394.cfm

Tell someone who cares Tiny Shrew.

We all reckon Clinton was as big a NWO scumbag as George senior.  Go look for those libs I think I here them rustling around under your bed.

It must have been a disspointment to you when the Commies suddenly stopped hiding under there?  Glad you’ve got something to occupy your small mind with.

Proof that BUSH LIED

Tiny, whiny, slimy, Shrew, why do you laugh like a Cock-a-too?
Cackling like a nincompoop and babbling like a running drain.

Oh and the Armed forces are having a hell of a time lowering the entrance requirements enough to fullfill recruitment quotas.  They couldn’t expand now without conscription anyway, Dubya has made such a cock up of it.  There are also record numbers of Officers getting out, cutting their careeres short rather than serve under the current Insane Criminal Junta.

Didn’t you notice the mention of DU by Wiley, Tiny Shrew?  Do YOU know what that is and how its use makes you a war criminal nation?

Tina - do you have a point?  You need to go back to school and get refresher training on federalist powers.  The executive branch doesn’t raise and maintain armed forces that falls to the legislative branch. 
I am a conservative, will no longer register republican, I have zero liberal bend here.  It kills me how so called conservatives go out of their way to back this moron of a president regardless of what he does.  This administration has so poorly handled this war in Iraq they should be (rumsfeld, bush, chaney, rice) all be put on trial for it.  Blaming Clinton for this mess in Iraq is a sick joke.  He did not decide to send in 150,000 troops when chiefs of staff recommended at least 385k.  He isn’t the one who didn’t plan beyond the ousting of Hussein.  Clinton isn’t the one who placed countless republican cronies in their mid to late 20s and who never traveled outside of the US let alone the mid-east in charge of running Iraq’s PA Gov’t after Hussein was ousted.  What is going on in Iraq now has absolutely nothing to do with what Clinton did to our armed forces.  It has everything to do with inept planning on a criminal scale, lack of ability to adapt, lack of willingness to listen and adjust, severe micromanagement, and flat out stubburness.  This is a direct result of the as*hole president we have in power now not the one we had between 1992-2000.  Time to be intellectually honest with yourself.

Though, I see the attack on Iraq as an illegal and unjustifiable aggression, the poor handling of the attack and its aftermath made everyones’ situation worse. Who was the general they had “retired” because he wouldn’t say “yes”? Shinseki? Going to look that up.

Who actually benefits from all this?

Rumsfeld ticking off

In his testimony, Mr. Wolfowitz ticked off several reasons why he believed a much smaller coalition peacekeeping force than General Shinseki envisioned would be sufficient to police and rebuild postwar Iraq. He said there was no history of ethnic strife in Iraq, as there was in Bosnia or Kosovo. He said Iraqi civilians would welcome an American-led liberation force that “stayed as long as necessary but left as soon as possible,” but would oppose a long-term occupation force. And he said that nations that oppose war with Iraq would likely sign up to help rebuild it. “I would expect that even countries like France will have a strong interest in assisting Iraq in reconstruction,” Mr. Wolfowitz said. He added that many Iraqi expatriates would likely return home to help.

correction

Wolfowitz did the original ticking. Now he’s working for the world bank (?), where he doesn’t have to deal with messy troop issues, he can bring a country to its knees with a loan.

to csmelnix:

in response to your post to me....

csmelnix said—“I am a conservative, will no longer register republican, I have zero liberal bend here.”

** first of all, I’m not buying it ... your not a conservative and you never were **

--------------------

csmelnix said— “It kills me how so called conservatives go out of their way to back this moron of a president regardless of what he does.”

** I don’t agree with Bush on everything, and every republican/conservative that I know has disagreements with Bush on certain issues. 

And .... Rush, Hannity, O’Reilly, Savage, Glenn Beck, Tucker Carlson, Joe Scarborough and Laura Ingraham don’t agree with everything that Bush does.  How do I know this?  because I listen to all of them of the radio and/or watch them on TV.  One example was when Bush nominated Harriet Miers for the Supreme Court.  Were you in a coma when that happened?  Hopefully I don’t have to explain it to you. **

------------------

csmelnix said—“This administration has so poorly handled this war in Iraq they should be (rumsfeld, bush, chaney, rice) all be put on trial for it.  Blaming Clinton for this mess in Iraq is a sick joke.  He did not decide to send in 150,000 troops when chiefs of staff recommended at least 385k.  He isn’t the one who didn’t plan beyond the ousting of Hussein. 

** I AGREE with you on a lot what you said here.  Rumsfield should of sent in more troops in the beginning .. that was a big mistake.  And they didn’t plan on the insurgency, but no one else thought about it either ... I mean, none of the politicians (senators/congressman).  And if we would of sent in more troops in the beginning, then the insurgency wouldn’t of been as big as it is.  THAT I AGREE WITH YOU.

Having said that, putting Bush, Cheney and Rummy on trial is insane.  For you to imply they be charged with a crime is just your hate spewing out.  Remember, I’m not buying your bit about being a conservative ... your a lib and you have always been a lib.  In fact, your probally a college professor with a pony tail.

... I never blamed this mess on Clinton.  The point in my previous post about the decrease of full time military during 8 yrs of Clinton has to do with the original article on this thread ... and national guard.  More full time military means less national guard being called up.  **

--------------------

Finally ... we have made adjustments, but anti-bush, anti-war liberals have tunnel vision.  You liberals only believe what you want to believe. 

I find it very funny when I hear liberals always say that republicans are too stupid to discuss issues or that we don’t want to discuss them.  Hannity, Rush, O’Reilly, Savage, Ingraham ... all of them have people on their show that have opposite views ... everyday they have guest on with opposite views.  How do I know this?  ....just go up about 6/7 paragraph and should be able to figure it out. **

PS - I’m going to start something new for you libs.  This will be done once a month.  It’s called “Book of the Month”.  I will announce at the beginning of each month a book for you libs to read.  Your job will then be to read that book and give me your opinion and what you learned.  The purpose of this is simply to expand your horizons.

Tiny Shrew

The following is a piece for you. 

Read it and study it and see if you can understand the import.

Heads roll at Veterans Administration
Mushrooming depleted uranium (DU) scandal blamed.

by Bob Nichols

Considering the tons of depleted uranium used by the U.S., the Iraq war can truly be called a nuclear war.
Preventive Psychiatry E-Newsletter charged Monday that the reason Veterans Affairs Secretary Anthony Principi stepped down earlier this month was the growing scandal surrounding the use of uranium munitions in the Iraq War.

Writing in Preventive Psychiatry E-Newsletter No. 169, Arthur N. Bernklau, executive director of Veterans for Constitutional Law in New York, stated, “The real reason for Mr. Principi’s departure was really never given, however a special report published by eminent scientist Leuren Moret naming depleted uranium as the definitive cause of the ‘Gulf War Syndrome’ has fed a growing scandal about the continued use of uranium munitions by the US Military.”

Bernklau continued, “This malady (from uranium munitions), that thousands of our military have suffered and died from, has finally been identified as the cause of this sickness, eliminating the guessing. The terrible truth is now being revealed.”

He added, “Out of the 580,400 soldiers who served in GW1 (the first Gulf War), of them, 11,000 are now dead! By the year 2000, there were 325,000 on Permanent Medical Disability. This astounding number of ‘Disabled Vets’ means that a decade later, 56% of those soldiers who served have some form of permanent medical problems!” The disability rate for the wars of the last century was 5 percent; it was higher, 10 percent, in Viet Nam.

“The VA Secretary (Principi) was aware of this fact as far back as 2000,” wrote Bernklau. “He, and the Bush administration have been hiding these facts, but now, thanks to Moret’s report, (it) ... is far too big to hide or to cover up!”

“Terry Jamison, Public Affairs Specialist, Office of the Deputy Assistant Secretary for Public Affairs, Department of Veterans Affairs, at the VA Central Office, recently reported that ‘Gulf Era Veterans’ now on medical disability, since 1991, number 518,739 Veterans,” said Berklau.

“The long-term effects have revealed that DU (uranium oxide) is a virtual death sentence,” stated Berklau. “Marion Fulk, a nuclear physical chemist, who retired from the Lawrence Livermore Nuclear Weapons Lab, and was also involved with the Manhattan Project, interprets the new and rapid malignancies in the soldiers (from the 2003 Iraq War) as ‘spectacular … and a matter of concern!’”

When asked if the main purpose of using DU was for “destroying things and killing people,” Fulk was more specific: “I would say it is the perfect weapon for killing lots of people!”

Rabbit just read some of Tiny Shrew’s babble.......... what a goose!

This troll is definately broken.  Let us go unto the King and beg his favour.

Rocco, if indeed you are a web lord, prove it to us, do some magic.  Something we cannot do, like eliminate the broken troll.  If you do such a thing we will accept you as King and we will know that you are after all a great wizard.

ALL HAIL KING ROCCO!!! HAIL!!! HAIL!!!

(I feel like a peasant today.)

That’s one big, fat, lead gauntlet you’re throwing down there Rabbitalisman. I’d throw in a new car. And a house. And a horse. And, and, and…

I saw that article last week. It surprised me that the V.A. nurse I spoke with had heard nothing about him leaving, and nothing about D.U.

Didn’t save the link, but I ran into a disturbing statement today.  According to that uncited report, the VA budget is not guaranteed. The government can just yank it anytime they want. That’s frightening. I have to wonder if that’s why it was so important to the administration to keep the number of troops low. Most people don’t know anyone who’s in Iraq or Afghanistan. Most people won’t want to know a soldier who’s stressed, dying, fresh back from killing, and radioactive.

Tina,

You’re an idiot.  I don’t have to convince you of my ideology, I am a true conservative - go listen to Pat Buchanon, I am of the like of him. 
To state that the right wing cronies - the radio mouths, disagree with Harriet Miers or here’s one you didn’t mention dolt- they all disagree with Bush on immigration.  None are of any substance. 
Putting the three idiots on trial - maybe more of a figure of speech - maybe.  What they have done to and with Iraq and to our soldiers, from mismanagement, improperly equiping, the rush to war, etc… border criminal negligence. 
Now to state that nobody else mentioned the insurgency!  You definitely listen to too much talk radio.  Gen. Sheneski said so, Gen. Zinni said so, Colin Powell said so, Sen. Hagel said so, Gen McCaffrey said so, the state department to include their own intelligence wing forecasted it and warned about it, internal DIA and CIA analyst warned of it as well but all were neglected.  The bottom line is as a warplanner or leader you better war game the unexpected, Murphy’s law is more prevelant in war than anywhere else.  They were too wrapped up in themselves playing cowboy and believing their own messages to understand what they were getting into.  Yet, not one of those bastards has lost their job over it.  You can say it’s hate that I’m spewing but it’s hate because I led men in battle - I am a former infantry officer, and I know who’s paying for this lack of planning and execution.  They have not made any changes, have not adapted their strategy in Iraq only their purported reasons for going there.  Tell me what changes have they made if you believe it?  Maybe you ought to pick up a rifle, go stand a post in Ramadi and put your $ where your mouth is. 
Here’s some questions for you: 
1.  What’s our mission in Iraq?
2.  How do we achieve this mission?
3.  How do we measure success?
4.  What does it mean, when they stand up we stand down?
5.  How many have to stand up for us to stand down?
6.  How do we quantify or measure what standing up is?
7.  What metrics are we using to determine when they stand up?
About your comments w/ Clinton and downsizing.  You missed it, THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH - does not raise and support the military, i.e. they don’t cut 2 army divisions, battleships, air wings, personnel etc… that’s done by CONGRESS or the LEGISLATIVE BRANCH.  Congress is the one that makes the decision and by the way, it was initiated by the first Bush president, executed by a Republican controlled Congress.  Your point was to throw mud and blame at Clinton.  More importantly, however, is your ignorance on the cause of more Guard and Reserve units being called up.  It’s a result of improperly planning and executing the war plan.  You half ass it like they are the result is longer occupation time, draw of more resources and lack of true progress.  All done by the mad magazine poster boy - George W. Bush. 
If you feel so strongly about him and what he’s doing in Iraq, I challenge you again, go enlist, lord knows we need more soldiers.

I started to make a joke but it made the rabbit sad, there really isn’t anything funny about it.  Did you read the Revenge of the Mutt People?

It is an empathic piece though not complimentary to Bush, the Mutt people or the USA, but what else is new?

It always amuses me when people mention that Oz isn’t in very good shape either.  As far as the politics go, this is true, but who says Rabbit is comparing Oz to anything?

I’ve said it before, we have the slickest NWO government on the block.  In some ways we are just waiting to see if this thing is going to get stopped over there, and hopefully we can start hauling back on them here, whereas if you guys go under, we’re already fucked.

So there, Tiny Shrew.

Csmelnix most certainly seems like a conservative to this rabbit.  First he says things like this,

Tina,

You’re an idiot.

Which is quite conservative after what has been said of you by others.  You are way over and beyond an idiot, you are a gibberring, cackling, crack pot as well, but does CS mention this?  No he merely conservatively points out you are an idiot, which you are.

For CS to say of the three head honchos in the Junta;

What they have done to and with Iraq and to our soldiers, from mismanagement, improperly equiping, the rush to war, etc… border criminal negligence. 

IS VERY CONSERVATIVE.

The three stooges referred to are without any doubt on their way to war trials in the hague, and they most assuredly have plenty of charges of face, and if there is anything left of them they should be put on trial for the criminal destruction of the USA.

Now quite honestly can’t you see that Csmelnix is a Conservative? 

Last and not least Tiny Shrew, the broken troll, if CS says he is something, who the hell do you think you are to deny it in such an ad hoc way you frigging nincompoop?

Yea, what Rabbit said.  It’s Buchanen by the way.

David,

Stand by and get shot?

Exactly my point.

Your poem of “pacifism lost” loses sight of what happens to “big” people with big brains when they don’t defend themselves.

csmelnix,

You will not find any language in any contract that states as an officer you are considered still in the army even after your 8 year MSO is complete unless you resign your commission.

and YOUR point is, what?

Signing active duty Enlistment Papers and that Commission that the US Congress granted you, are two very different things.

For those who were snowed by csmelnix’s argument, when Congress grants a military commission, that commission is in force until you resign it, regardless of your active/inactive duty status.

(note: I may be in error about which sovereign power actually appoints the commission. It may be the President and not Congress, though advancement of a commission to general does require Congressional approval - it has been quite awhile since I have been involved with that).

But regardless, there is a world of difference between an enlisted serviceperson’s contract running up and that of a commissioned officer.

Jay,

Read my post again asshole.  I resigned my commission.  Furthermore moron, you don’t just get a commission randomly.  You have to sign and execute a contract to get into a program that leads to a commission.  When in that contract language like indefinite appointments etc are absent, what then are you signing up for?  You execute an oath of office to accept a commission and nowhere is there language that states your commission is indefinite.  Whether you are an officer or enlisted you have to sign a contract, and you dumbass, that contract is an enlisted contract! 
You are not granted by Congress or the President a commission w/o it.  The point is that the army banks on people not realizing this so they can do what they are doing to a number of IRR soldiers and former officers - hold rights to them indefinitely.  If I ever drafted a contract like that and duped contractees I would have the book thrown at me.  By the way, the President appoints, Congress approves - being such an expert you ought to get your facts straight.

Jay,
Another note - looking at your first comments on this post where you state there are no restrictions on the use of the IRR...you need to go read the US Codes specific to utilization of the nations reserves.  There are a number of restrictions to its use.  If you are going to just rant, make sure your facts are straight - again!

Rabbitierro, I have bookmarked that blog---Joe Bageant is to the point. It is sad, isn’t it? This is one of the reasons why I was never completely at home in the “left”.

csmelnix, thanks for the general name dropping. I’ve put them on file----that saves a lot of wear and tear on the search engine (so to speak). Please slog away with more information and insight on defense preparedness.

Personally, I’d like it if we veered off into the question of how do we defend the homeland and deal with natural disaster without the Guard and the Reserve?

Oh, yeah---you might be familiar with this---I remember reading, some time last year, that we had ransacked every attic and basement on every base we had around the world for ammunition. Our munition manufacturers couldn’t keep up with demand. Also, I read that there were was something in the range of 55,000 bullets fired in Iraq for each and every Iraqi. Does any of this ring a bell?

At this rate, csmelnix, if you have thoughts you would like to share about the likely outcome for our troops in Iraq, I’d love to hear it.

The ammunition issue is one where we are now buying from China because our inventory did get low.  Another example of inadequate planning.  That is, however, not specific to the administration as much as it is to the pentagon - where priority budget matters are for the F22 and Abrams etc v the equipment that helps in force protection for the grunts on the ground.  It’s been endemic of the Pentagon for 30 plus years unfortunately. 
In terms of where our troops will end up?  Unfortunately, with out a real plan and strategy to succeed there, I think the day will come where our “leaders” will say that Iraq has stood up and we can now stand down.  Inevitably leaving Iraq pretty much as it is today and with a token presence somewhere in the Anbar Province.  The people we have in the military - God bless them, they sacrifice like we can’t imagine.  They are truly selfless and the best our country has, but it’s just a shame that they are put in harms way by leaders who will not committ to win at all costs.

Jay says, Your poem of “pacifism lost” loses sight of what happens to “big” people with big brains when they don’t defend themselves.

Not at all, Jay.

The poem (lyrics) may not describe in detail the death and destruction that little people with little guns visit upon those without guns. But it does allude to it ...

... and I see what happens very clearly.

Damn pacifists! You’re ruining everything with your non-violence, and your silly little peace signs and those tie dyed shirts! I hate those tie-dyed shirts! You never punch anybody in the face! You’d rather have lunch! What is your problem?! You wooly little peace-niks never kick anyone’s legs out from under them! You’re so darned polite all the time, like the most important thing in the world is going out to lunch! For crying out loud, do you really expect anyone to take you seriously? You never even think of pointing guns at people! Ya’ll don’t even carry weapons!  That’s how useless you pacifists are! Why don’t you put ‘em up and fight you squirrely little PACIFISTS! If it weren’t for you relaxed types---hell---we’d be fighting all the time. But noooooo.

;)

Jay Jay spouted.

Jay spouted spew.

............................................As usual

David,

Not at all?

csmelnix,

You are right. I didn’t read your post fully. I responded to your statements from your first paragraph.

Let me get this straight. You went back in, had asked about getting your status back, the CO said, don’t worry, we’ll take care of it.

He did.

And you are now upset?

I guess I still don’t get it.

What you don’t get is that they forged that oath of office which changed my status and the ability of the army to grab me.  The army FORGED a document to hold authority over me, do you understand that?  Had they not forged it, they never would have been able to call me up!  Makes a big difference.

Yeah, I got that. He backdated it because you asked him to “take care of it”

What did you want him to “take care of”?

We always get exactly what we asked for…

Gotta love pacifism. No, really, I do. I can Imagine.

Unfortunately, Pacifism, like Marxism, is great on paper. But if just one person doesn’t toe the party line, Utopia falls like th proverbial house of cards.

Jay,

What they were suppose to take care of was a new appointment.  At the time I wasn’t an officer so they had to offer me a new appointment or else I had to join that unit as an enlisted soldier - which I was open to as well but instead, they broke the law.  I guess in your world that’s ok though.

Contracts? Treaties? Who cares csmelnix? Oh---you must be part of the reality based community. You think an agreement means something, huh?

Jay,

You still don’t seem to get it. My pacifist house of cards does not require the participation of everyone. All it requires is my own.

At least, pacifists don’t fool themselves into believing that violence is the only sane response to all possible threats.

I’m not a pacist (used to think I was), but I see violence as a last resort, an admission of failure, and a grevious act that is only justified when one is under physical attack. Revenge doesn’t count in my book. The rule of law, it seems to me, supercedes the rule of the jungle.

Having all of our troops, including the guard and reserves overseas doesn’t sound particularly smart to me. The effects of an attack depend as much on how we respond to it as how much damage is done directly. Not protecting ourselves makes us, to some degree, partially responsible for what happens to us. Note the word “partially”.

What sense does it make to put killing terrorists before securing our borders and training first responders? That doesn’t even make sense. Is there a finite supply of terrorists?

The aftermath of Katrina and a breaking levee is enough to tell us that we are not sufficiently prepared to deal with violence of any sort.

It would behoove us to contemplate the differences between responsibility and blame. If a child ran into the street and was hit and killed by a drunk driver, you know damned well that if his parents were passed out drunk on the back porch, everybody would be raising hell about the irresponsible parents. The drunk driver would, of course be responsible, and maligned; but the parents would be even more shamed for not putting their child’s safety first.

I wouldn’t go too far with this analogy, because I think the government should be a public servant and not a parent, but you probably get the drift.

the zoo isn’t the jungle

Busy Rabbit just passing, drops a note and hops away.

DU issues on the rise.

Who wants to join the Army and be poisoned by DU?

Getting drafted to be poisoned with DU?

Can’t help it, there is one thing needs to be said.

It is not necessary to compare our relative sizes, fitness or experiences to be completely sure that in the event of violence, which be it a last choice of most of us, is nonetheless not ruled out.

Jay Jay and similar pansy, gutless gung ho types, would be bound to come off second best.  You try constantly to intimate that we are the weaklings and you are somehow tougher, more likely to survive.  Thus you miss the point altogether.  We have the courage to stand up for what we are, not parrot the official mantra for lack of clues or courage.  We have a much clearer and more rational approach, and accept reality for what it is, not trying to delude myself and others into some illusion.  It doesn’t matter that you think otherwise.  For us it is clear, you are a small part of our world. We are not a part of your world, since that is mostly delusions, and your utter failure to understand or comprehend anyone on this site is the proof of it.  For you we all exist as some sort of generic Liberal or pacifist or whatever little names you have in your head.  We are in fact just vastly more informed and intelligent that you Jay Jay.  We have more nuanced views than you are capable of understanding, yet you are completely obvious to all of us.  We can see what sort of person you are, we can predict your attitudes and the simple fact is there for all to see, we have your number boyo.  On every front we have you pegged to a “T”.  That is because like I said, you are a small part of our world.

Basically what I want to say, is that if it came down to violence, you would not stand a chance even then.

I for one, absolutely could rip your head from your shoulders.  I know this as sure as the sun rises.  This comes form experience, confidence and assurance.  All things you have very little of.  Don’t confuse opinions, arrogance and fear with these, they are all you have to work with Jay Jay, but these are there true names.  The first three belongs not to those who cower under their beds over imaginary enemies, happy to have death and destruction waged at a distance, upon unknown people on their behalf, rather than take a chance of going out into the world without a gun for a change.

You want to play with guns Jay Jay?  I could put a bullet through your left eye socket from 600m with a scope and high powered rifle, 200m while you’re running without a scope. I could knock you down from 50m with the first instinctive shot from a pistol or machine pistol, or put a spear through your chest from 30m or a throwing knife from 10meters.  Just a few details for you gung ho Jay Bird.

The rabbit could also make mercury or silver fulminate from scrap and a few simple acids.  TNT from the same acids and some hardware store chemicals and using these fashion a means of taking you and your vehicle to kingdom come, for example, or your house, your fortress.  The rabbit can also fashion simple firearms, and better still mortars and even mortar bombs. 

There is no lack of the ability to fight, to defend ourselves if necessary.  The difference is that people like us don’t go around picking fights.  Bullies do, and they always try to say the other guy started it.  It isn’t easy even for a usually stupid bully to admit that he just attacked somebody smaller and weaker, because he is basically a coward trying to prove something.

........more

You are a coward Jay, and you have a complete coward for an Emperor.  Your country has now earned the reputation, worldwide, of being a bullying coward.  You are not respected, less and less feared for anything except ther sheer instability of your leadership and the potential for Nuclear Holocaust that you Bastards have held like a sword of Damacles over the heads of the world.

Your Gung ho rhetoric is beyong pathetic.  Listen to your own countrymen, they are telling you they can see it too.

You bring shame on them, other Americans, you bring shame on manhood even.  You cannot bring shame upon the USA for it has lost all standing and is beneath saming herself more.  There awaits just the penny to drop for all those other deluded Americans, but it is coming down.  You will probably not be among their number,.Jay you are such an Ass you will still be spouting how it was all going great and then somebody stuffed it up for you to the day you die.

Rabbit hopes so to, for he would like to think of you fading away in sanity as the world comes crashing down about your utterly wasted ears.

You of all the Morons and Trolls and Shills Rabbit has met, are the most pathetic, Jay.  Rabbit tells you this from the bottom of his heart.

Do you know what first strike means in the REAL world Jay brain and other wackjobs?

It is the one who started the fight.

First strike, is something you actually try and provoke in the other person, if you intend to win with the best chance. Surely as a fighting man Jay should realise that?

Oh yes, always smartest to let the other guy hit first, especially if he’s bigger.  Which in the rabbit’s case has always been the case.  Let the dimwitted clown work itself into a rage and then it strikes out in anger, without a plan in its tiny head about what would happen next.  From this point on the rabbit can hop and wack and finally get a hold of the dimwit’s neck, and then the strength of Rabbit’s barrel chest and back, always a surprise for the ninnies, ensures the ninny can do no further harm to the rabbit or itself.  After a while of Rabbit shutting off the ability of the clown to breath, and slowly dislocating the back of said opponent, a chiropractic thing, it always either stops struggling and gives up, or it just stops struggling and goes to sleep for awahile.

Don’t like punching much, it hurts the rabbit as much as the other guy, teeth and bone is hard enough to break and cut Rabbit’s paws.  Legs and feet are on the other hand quite useful for slugging it out for a bit, with hands and arms used mostly for distraction of the opponent.  .

Guess the rabbit got a bit carried away there.  Too much adrenalin remembering.  Actually Rabbit is no more a pacifist than that if he is anywhere and somebody is being a complete dickhead, the rabbit will inevitably “get in the dickheads face” in a way that he eventually gets to clobber the dickhead.  In truth this has meant the spicing up of his sister in-law’s wedding among other events.  Rabbit never ever made a first strike though. 

The guy who makes the first strike usually loses.  I know the movies show it different, but the movies are all made up Jay.

Got it?

Rabbitabouli, take it easy and tell us what talk there is in Oz about a draft. Does Oz have any kind of conscription? What is the talk about Australian troops in Iraq lately?

Though it hasn’t been brought up much lately, I think that our disrespectful relationship with our allies is going to bite our butts.

Grr grrr,snap bite grrrr..................^^.....................

Oh hello Wiley

Rabbit was getting a bit excited for a moment there, Wiley.

The Jay Bird carries on as if attcacking smaller opponents on the grounds they might one day attack oneself first, is somehow tougher, more brave than just living a good and peaceful life and being prepared for crazies.  If we lived like this then the crazies might never has wrested control of the USA in the first place.

The talk in Oz about Australian tropps is all bad.  The thing you want to realise is that our whole involvement has been very low key seen from Aussie media perspective.  It is noticeable that Oz gets very little mention in the media in general but it was such in the Gulf war for example that our involvement at least got an inordinate amount of the coverage of awhat was going on in the Gulf.  Not this time, they have snuck the troops out under cover of darkness so to speak.  The PM has not seen the troops off from the docks with big ceremonies like all the other times in history, not even family mebers have been given more than hours notice and fareweklls at the docks have been non-events, unpublished, and what few photos exist of ships leaving docks with troops are astonishingly devoid of people saying goodbye.  In fact there was and is suspician that the Michelle Corby Drug case in Indonesia was allowed to happen as it did to draw media attention from what was a historic and our main troop deployemnt to Iraq. 

The reason for this was always onvious, the attack on Iraq was NEVER supported by even half of Aussies, it was unpopular and has never done other than lose support ever since it began. Each new revelation of abuse and information about Iraqi resistance increasing is having the expected effect on what few supporters remain.  The main contention in all Australian Polls was that with or without WMD’s which was the ONLY reason which was ever given here, an attack without UN approval was OUT OF THE QUESTION. 

That is why we HAVE jointly agreed upon global agreements, to avoid any one nation screwing it up for everybody.  They work fine as long as everyone sticks to them, it’s an honour thing. 

There is one reason and one reason only that there is not even as much anti war sentiment being shown here as Cindy Sheehan is mustering together with others.  WE HAVE NOT HAD ANY CASUALTIES , (reported anyway).  So long as things stay that way you probably won’t get much reaction here.  Bottom line we don’t seem to have much more tolerance or empathy for a bunch of brown people in a big sand pit floating on a sea of oil either.  Rabbit has occasionally wondered where is the Aussie anti war crowd, we have a bit, but no groundswell like vietnam.  The answer then seems obvious when the rabbit recalls we have not got any body count upon which to base a public reaction from “just another satellite state of the evil empire”.

Ahhh, Rupert Murdoch is an Aussie, ain’t he?  The Coalition of the Willing isn’t talked about anymore. Looks like being a satellite state of the evil empire is a thankless job. Wonder if Blair has noticed as much? I don’t hear any sis boom bah over British involvement in Iraq.

You think Australians are going to care about the troops when they get back? Are they going to be cared for?

Rupert Murdoch is a committed Zionist Pig F*cking Bastard.  He could technicaly be called Australian, frankfully, even though his shilling network has long arms and affects much of our media too, he is thankfully a half world away from Oz and that suits everyone around here just fine.

Unless one considers the leaders, there never was any coalition of the willing.  We were and remain a coalition of bullied and bribed.  We don’t make any bones about it, bit it sure does add insult to injury to hear Bush call us a coalition.

Aussies are not going to give a shit for the troops. 

Most of them are hardly aware they are there, none have been injured even as far as we know, certainly no actual casualties.  WTF would anyone care for them?  They did their job, got their money.  They are not defending anything we hold dear, the honest to god truth is that there is no group within Oz society which is bleating about defending our values or freedoms.  We don’t get all that spin.

We were told it was for WMDs.  End of story.  When WMDs were not found that was the end of that.  When it was proven that they knew about it and lied, and believe me, the fallout from the intelligence agancies here is still going down, Aussies accepted that as being the truth easily.  We always knew John Howard is a liar and when he says something it is assumed to be a lie by most Aussies.  We always knew Bush was a Liar, and we always knew John Howhard was sucking Georges Dick.  They’re all Rhodes Scholars, our premiers too, that is a common connection with our leaders. 

Aussies for all their faults are not as easily bullshitted as Americans appear to be.  When Howard tried to come the raw prawn with us, and claim it was also about ridding the world of Hussein, he was told to stick it.  When he raises the War on Terror the only ones who listen are the Tame Opposition, many others tell him to stick it.  We knew as soon as the lies unfolded over a year ago, that the whole thing was about Oil.  Many of us figured that from the start, but when we were shown to be right, this was accepted by the majority.

Australians know sure as night follows day that we are setting ourselves up for retaliation and if their really was any terrorists capable and willing I wonder why they haven’t had a go, because in our case it won’t be to Howards benefit.  It is a surity that if we get a terrorist attack on Aussie soil Howard will be fucked.  Finished.  That has been the greatest danger to him all along, and therefore it is incredible nobody has done anything.  OR NOT!

Actually I don’t know if Howard is a Rhody but shall check.  Plenty of others were. 

They’re groomed early out in the colonies.

Old Mr Cecil Buggery Rhodes.  One of the late great evil geniuses.  More influential and far sighted an Illuminist is hard to think of just now.

He wasn’t but he still sucks up to Oxford and the Rhody scholar scheme it seems.

Don’t forget Blair. He’s a liar. I honestly don’t understand what is keeping Blair glued to the post. They don’t tippy toe around each other in Parliament, and the Brits seem pretty vocal.

I don’t think most Americans really care about the troops either. Many people here were very quick to conclude that Gulf War Syndrome was all in the soldiers’ heads and that the troops were just trying to milk the system. I’ve heard people say that on many occasions and I’ve seen it implied on newscasts. 

Viet Nam vets are still a major part of the homeless crowd. Most Americans don’t care about them either. When the war is over, they’re not our glorious troops anymore.

And this is the most amazing thing to me about the U.S. right now, Rabbit---anyone who sees a program that talks about veterans in any way, will know better than the veterans what they are going through and how they should be adjusting. It’s astounding. People who watch television know everything. No experience necessary.  They saw it on Oprah.

It hasn’t always been this way in the U.S., Rabbit. I don’t know what the hell happened.

David,

You still don’t get it.

Your pacifism can only survive if there are no “Little men with little guns”.

Now I know you are the ultimate optimist, but who you gonna call when that little man shows up at your doorstep? Another little man?

Wiley,

I see violence as a last resort, an admission of failure, and a grevious act that is only justified when one is under physical attack. Revenge doesn’t count in my book.

Absolutely.

Last resort - after 12 years of Saddam deliberately thumbing his nose at sanctions, nothing.

Admission of failure - the sanctions only ended up hurting the Iraqi’s, not Saddam.

A grevious act that is only justified when one is under physical attack - 9/11.

and Iraq is related to that??????

Priceless.

Jay

You are a little man with a gun. 

You really ought to read your infantile and quite paranoid ramblings. 

Little men with guns are coming to get us all are they?  How many little men with guns have tried to come and get you lately Jay Bird?

Is there anybody on this thread who has ever seen or heard about little men with guns coming to get them?

Jay Jay.  Rabbit knows enough about Dave to feel confidant that he or his country are quite ready and prepared to deal with any little men with guns.  Just because they don’t run about looking for little men to kill and annoy, doesn’t mean they are not prepared to defend themselves.  It does mean they are less likely to have to do so though.

You foolish clowns have ensured that lots and lots of little men are becoming more inclined to get guns and use them, at least to kill your invading troops.  Which is a legitimate response to invasion by the way.

You do realise that the US is committing War Crimes while the Iraq resistance is completely within it’s international rights don’t you?

Of course you don’t.  If it’s an American invasion it’s freedom marching, but if it’s ssomeone defending themselves against US agression they are terrorists.

You are an Idiot Jay.

Dave or Rabbit will shove your little gun up your backside you gutless wanker, then we’ll plant you in the middle of a park and use you as a bird feeder.

If any little men with little guns come marching down your street Jay will be hiding under his bed of course.  Do you think we can’t see your cowardice reeking from every sentence.  Listen to yourself you little weazel.

Last resort - after 12 years of Saddam deliberately thumbing his nose at sanctions, nothing.

The sanctions were horrific, Saddam didn’t thumb his nose at them dork, but he sure as hell had a right to.  He did his best to get around them, well if you read any of the foregoig about them you’d see why and so what?  The sanctions were evil and morally wrong?  Nobody is obliged to submit to such crap.  You hubristic popinjay.

Admission of failure - the sanctions only ended up hurting the Iraqi’s, not Saddam.

The sanctions sure did hurt Iraqi’s but so does Depleted Uranium, Napalm, Bombs and Bullets as well, mass arrests and torture of their civilians.  remember do we Jay bird when you used to argue that there was no torture going on by USA, it was just a few “bad eggs”.  Now we know it is official policy and you don’t change your tune a bit.  You are a dirty little cowardly war criminal faggot.  You support a series of actions which have decimated the Iraqi population anfd you want to be praised for it.

A grevious act that is only justified when one is under physical attack - 9/11.

No Popinjay.  The grievous attack is not justified by something like 911.  Nice and simple, we repeat for the benefit of those who are slow to catch on and have NO memories.  Neither Iraq nor Saddam Hussein had ANYTHING whatsoever to do with 911, that is and has always been a fact.  You would like to make up bullshit, but you are not allowed to Jay.  at this point you are showing that you are a LIAR as well. 

YOU KNOW IRAQ WAS NOT INVOLVED IN THE 911 ATTACKS. 

In fact Iraq was one of many countries who expressed great sorrow about 911. 

We do know who was involved in 911.  Starting with high up forces within the US government and stretching to their allies in Saudi Arabia.  Remember now do we?

No Jay your last sentence is an indigtment o