Reflections on Tookies Execution

I think capital punishment is wrong and would vote to overturn it. I also think Tookie should have lived out his pathetic embarrassment of a life in that dungeon in anonymity for brutally murdering 4 innocent people (and he wasn’t even a man enough to admit that he did it - as the courts have proved over, and over, and over again).  Some people just can’t get their heads around convictions, some people still believe OJ didn’t do it! Normal people find this hard to believe of course. But there are still cranks out there.

Tookie was a cheap street thug who founded one of the most notorios gangs in the nation. The amount of carnage that the Crips, Bloods, and every other gang that formed have devasted minority communities throughout this country. He’s is no saint. He is no martyr. He was just a cheap street gang thug with no conscience or honor.

But I digress - Capital Punishment has to go. We’re on the cards on that one, eh?

Tookie was a scumbag ... and the real shame is that he wasn’t dusted sooner.  The other shame is that liberals actually believe Tookie saying “I didn’t do it” ...  “I’m innocent”.  The most popular words in prison are “I’m innocent”. 

Here is another scumbag that said “I’m innocent”.  He claimed he was innocent right before the state of Virginia toasted him.  And..... he was full of crap, he lied.  (read the article)

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Va. killer executed in 1992 was guilty, DNA shows

Published: 01.13.2006

New DNA tests in the case of a man executed in Virginia in 1992 show he was, in fact, guilty of the rape and murder of his sister-in-law.

The result was a blow for death-penalty opponents who saw in the case the potential for the nation’s first post-execution DNA exoneration.

Roger Coleman, a 33-year-old coal miner whose case landed him on the cover of Time magazine, went to his death in Virginia’s electric chair insisting he had been wrongly convicted.

“An innocent man is going to be murdered tonight,” Coleman said in a statement just moments before he was put to death. “When my innocence is proven,” he added, “I hope America will realize the injustice of the death penalty as all other civilized countries have.”

But the DNA tests, ordered last week by outgoing Virginia Gov. Mark Warner, showed that Coleman’s semen was found in the body of Wanda McCoy, the 19-year-old sister of Coleman’s wife, Warner announced Thursday.

http://www.azstarnet.com/allheadlines/111141

During his campaign for Governor in 1998, Jeb Bush proposed the toughest gun-crime law in the nation: 10-20-LIFE. Under 10-20-LIFE, a felon who used a gun to commit a crime like armed robbery would face at least 10 years in state prison.

The 1999 Florida Legislature passed sweeping legislation that provides for enhanced minimum mandatory prison terms for offenders who commit crimes with guns.

10-20-LIFE has helped to drive down Florida’s violent-gun crime rates by 30%. The state’s 2004, “Index Crime” rate is now the lowest in 34 years, and the violent crime rate is the lowest in a quarter century.

The results under 10-20-LIFE are impressive. In only six years, from 1998-2004, 10-20-LIFE has helped drive down violent gun crime rates 30 percent statewide (see Firearm Involved Violent Crimes).

During the 10-20-LIFE era, armed criminals robbed a total of 10,567 fewer people and killed a total 380 fewer than they would have if these crime numbers had remained at 1998 levels. These crime decreases occurred even as Florida’s population increased over 2.5 million (16.8 percent) between 1998 and 2004. Punishing criminals who use guns is making our state safer.

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http://www.dc.state.fl.us/oth/10-20-life/

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It’s hard to argue with those facts…

Florida gun crime dropped 30% in 6 years…

You can thank JEB BUSH for that !!!!

Tookie was responsible for HOW many deaths again? They only tagged four directly on him, but as the founder of one of the most vile, murderous street gangs in history his worthless hide was stained with the blood of thousands. Fuck him.

Right on “g-love” .... great comment.

Tookie was a scumbag ... and if you hear what the guards say about Tookie, he wasn’t the angel in prison that the hollywood moonbats portray.

And this whole leathel injection is a crock ... it’s too easy for these scumbags.  This is what we should do in America for the death penalty.  It would be based off that movie “The Running Man”

#1) All executions are on pay-per view (Saturday night).

#2) The pay-per view show would have (2) or (3) executions.

#3) There would be various methods of executions.  Such as slowing dropping the scumbag in a tank full of alligators ... or put them in a pit full of rattlesnakes and cobras.  And there would be other methods, but not leathel injection.

#4) The victims family would be given the chance to participate ... such as being the one to slowly lower the rope with the inmate attached in the tank of alligators ... things like that. 

The majority of the money raised by pay-per view would go to the State to help offset the budget of corrections ... but a portion of the money would go to the victims family ...

LET THE GAMES BEGIN !!!

The writer makes a number of assumptions.

First of all he makes Tookie out to be an asset we can’t do without, but that is not the major issue, so let’s cut to the core
Take a look at the assertion, “...capital punishment does not deter crime.”

If so, why not?

If before he pulled the trigger a shooter had a gun put to his head and was told, “Pull that trigger and I pull this one.” We would have a true test of the deterrent factor.

More importantly perhaps, we should speak of it as “death sentence” to avoid assuming it is done as punishment only.

In my view the only justification for the death sentence (or for imprisonment) is to protect society from individuals who have been some sort of threat to others. (A large number currently locked away do not meet that criteria and should be released.)

If “Life in Prison” could be guaranteed we may finally be able to do away with it.

“Life” does present another set of problems, but we should be able to deal with them. If someone has killed before, what does he have to lose while serving a life sentence? Can he freely kill other inmates or prison personnel?

We could reserve a death sentence for such a case. We could confine such a person to solitary.
----------------------

Why the above is a tough sell:

A Vermont judge sentenced a child rapist to TWO MONTHS and out on the streets again!

Just yesterday I heard a report that a person who knew his buddies were about to blow the Oklahoma Federal Building is being released earlier than his 12 year sentence.

P.S.

The Oklahoma guy is being released into the Wittness Protection Program. Now “we” must protect HIM!

Go figure.

I am not actually in favor of the death penalty, although this stance is not based in any way on any kind of “moral” ground. I find nothing immoral about putting down sick animals like Tookie. As someone adroitly stated, the needle is far too kind a death for a pig like him.

My issue with the death penalty is its “execution,” pun definitely intended. It is so biased towards the wealthy in its administration and is tilted heavily against the underprivileged, minority and low-income population in this country. There are actual accounts of poor defense teams literally sleeping on the job/in court, sloppy preparation, etc. Not to mention the fact that this sentence is pretty much the end of the line when delivered; at least if you’re vindicated and set free from a life sentence, you can still live.

Someone also pointed out the issue of why the death penalty doesn’t work, a statement I agree with. My take on it is that we hide it in a closet, like the Catholics do with exorcisms. How can something be an effective detterent when the general population doesn’t get to witness the cause-effect of capital crimes?

Think about it: virtually ALL executions happen in the dead of night or early morning, sequestered away in some closed-room of a prison with very few witnesses. It’s a very “secret” operation.

I’m with the “Running Man” concept, for several reasons. Not only should all executions be public, they should be televised and mandated that all the major networks carry the live coverage - no exceptions. They should show the crime scene photos, evidence and autopsy/forensics, along with a solemn reading of the person’s crimes and emphasize the fact that this individual is checking out on behalf of SOCIETY.

You will never eliminate murder or crime, people will still get drunk in bars and mix it up, for example. That is a “heat of the moment” thing that you will never completely eliminate. However, career criminals just might think twice if they believe they’ll actually pay the ultimate price for their crimes. And, perhaps most importantly, I very strongly feel that it’s way to easy for folks to “support” a punishment that realistically they don’t have to consider or face in any kind of meaningful way. For those who are strong proponents of the death penalty in particular, they should bear witness to what they say they support.

g-love,

I’ve been called for jury duty four times and can say the quality of the lawyer makes all the difference in the world. My experience has only been with civil cases, but it is apparent those who can afford the best (or slickest, wisest?) have a much better chance. Our system leaves much to be desired. It is more like a contest than an attempt at justice at times.

One lawyer was so poor at his job that the plaintif’s attorney kept objecting, “Objection, leading the witness, Your Honor.”

“Sustained.”

After several tries the judge said, “Why don’t you ask it like this.....?”

I have read that no matter what the judge, a lawyer, or anyone says, the jury has the right to do what they believe to be just.

An example: My former landlord served on a case where two guys had killed another over a drug deal. They went up on the guy’s front porch and when he opened the door he got a shotgun blast.

The shooter copped a plea and received 10 years. His buddy not only didn’t get a deal, the shooter testified that he was there at the time. In our state if you witness a capital crime and do not report it within 24 hours, you are equally guilty.

The judge told them the above and said they had no options other than guilty or innocent of murder. The non-shooter got 20 years. The jury could have disregarded the judge’s comment and been more just with an equal or lesser sentence for a reduced charge.

(Is there a lawyer out there who can say if this is so or not?)

All those who are submitting real hateful, ugly comments about this article - have any of you bothered to clear your biased, racial minds and attempted to look at this from a humanistic perspective? I doubt it very much!!

From my reading of the comments so far; you are all more focussed on “Tookie” and the crimes that he was supposed to have committed.

I work with gang members and their families; I go into their homes and assist them to focus on education and a better way of life; and I totally agree and support what this author has to say - Tookie would have been more beneficial kept alive - and execution does not lower the murder rate!!

The reaction to this article amuses me.......most commentators are still harbouring hate for Tookie - hey, he’s gone - put to death by the Governor....and yet many of you are still very angry out there!!

Those with such hate and venom in your hearts - you need to ask God for redemption - just like Tookie did!! When there is so much hate and venom expressed; you have a problem.......look deep in your hearts and consciences, and maybe you have demons in your own mind, body and soul....

This article is well written, and I congratulate the author.

All you hateful commentators, get over it!! Rather than make ghastly comments like this; look at this article in a positive manner, and start shaping a better future for those who need it.

I hope Governor Arnold is voted out of the next election - he needs to go back to Hollywood - that’s where he belongs.

Rosebud - “ask God for redemption?” Are you kidding me? I don’t think it’s expressing “hate and venom” to suggest that the kumbaya treatment Muwakkil suggests is a tad overboard. Rather, methinks it’s more calling it like it is.

Muwakkil - and apparently yourself - also seem only too eager to sidestep or minimize who this animal was. The reality is that we’re not discussing some low-level gangbanger. In theory I do agree with you, there are far-reaching social issues at play that generally lead people to gangs, because any reasonable, thinking person realizes that gang life doesn’t carry a long life expectency.

No, this guy was a co-founder of one of THE most violent, heinous criminal enterprises the world has ever seen. “Enterprise,” as in systematic, institutionalized crime. Before getting all high and mighty with the pathetic religious card, perhaps you would do well to consult the mothers of kids caught in the lead spray between gang members. I’ve witnessed drive-bys, and have zero sympathy for any individual associated with such a barbaric, horrible thing.

QUESTION: 
Why isn’t Howard Dean “outraged” that in his home state of Vermont, Judge Cashman sentenced a convicted child rapist to only 60 DAYS? 

Howard Dean sure was screaming about locking up our own U.S. Soldiers that were accused of abusing terrorist prisoners in G’itmo and Abu Ghraib. 

Why are liberals always so concerned with child rapists rights?  What about this little girl that was raped and raped and raped?

This shows what is really important to the Dims & Libs.  Dims & Libs don’t care about a child that has been raped over several years, they don’t care.  Libs/Dims think 60 days in jail is fair.

But, let a US Soldier get caught kicking a “koran” and the Libs/Dims want him locked up for 10 years.

This proves what I’ve always said .... “LIBERALS LOVE CHILD MOLESTERS”

It also proves what Michael Savage has been saying ... “Liberalism is a Mental Disorder”

Where are those Hollywood “Save Tookie” Moonbats at?

On May 2, 2005 Governor Jeb Bush signed the Jessica Lunsford Act into law with the father of the slain 9-year-old at his side. The legislation strengthens punishment and monitoring of child sex abusers and requires those who prey on children to be SENTENCED TO AT LEAST 25 YEARS IN PRISON, and to be tracked for life by electronic monitoring devices, if they are ever released.

“Violent, sexual crimes against our innocent children are perhaps the most heinous imaginable. The added protections from the Jessica Lunsford Act will provide law enforcement with the tools necessary to protect children from sexual offenders and predators,” Governor Bush said. “This new law complements our already very strong laws and regulations we have implemented to address sexual predators and sexual offenders.

http://www.dc.state.fl.us/secretary/press/2005/lunsfordAct.html

If your a child molester ... don’t come to Florida, because if you do and we catch you ... your life will be a LIVING HELL !!!  25 years in a Florida Prison ... and Florida Prisons DON’T HAVE AIR CONDITIONING.

Your best option would be to move to Vermont ... because if you get caught there, they will give you only 60 days and you will be treated like a “hero”.

As a violent crime victim and resident of a gang plagued neighborhood, I didn’t shed any tears over Tookie’s execution, even though I doubt he was guilty of the murders they convicted him for.  What Williams was guilty of was being what America wanted him to be.  America created Tookie Williams, a destructive life taking monster.  As long as Williams and the crips were destroying Black lives America put up with his murdering.  As long as Williams led the crips to dump tons of dope in Black communities he was alright with America.  As long as Williams acted the stereotype gangsta Black convict role America was willing to pay corporate jailers to warehouse him.  But when he made the mistake of realizing the error of his ways and found a vehicle to get the message out he had to be silenced, he no longer served America’s purpose.  All these phony ass post by white Americans talking about how they hate Williams for his gangsta murdering ways are the benefactors of all his destruction, liberals and conservatives alike.  Much as I hate the Tookie Williams of the world I hate people that won’t own up to the fact that these monsters manufactured by American racism are what creates white privledge, and you bastards love it.

Hey g-love - I have spoken with parents whose kids have been caught up in gang warfare - I’ve done more than that - I’ve gone into their homes, and I refuse to call anyone an “animal” - we all have that animalistic instinct - I am not side stepping anything - I feel for all those men and women on death row.

This is a sorry country when hate pours out like it does in here; and it’s not about “pathetic religion” either - funnily enough, what amuses me is the fact that when anyone is down the first person they turn to is “God.”

I freak for the States - look around you all - the disasters that are happening there are a sign that things are not all good.

I still commend, and will continue to commend the writer - good for you Muwakkil - go man go!!

Rather than make nasty and ugly comments in here, put your energy to decent use and get out there among the gangs and do some good work!!

“Williams, a co-founder of the Crips street gang, had transformed himself into a passionate anti-gang activist during his near quarter century in prison.”
That’s the key here; Williams was more useful to society alive than dead. He was already reformed. Whether he was guilty or not of the particular crimes he was convicted for pales in relevance next to the good he was doing, and could continue to do, in steering people kids away from gangs.

g-love - Interesting that you refer to Tookie as an ‘animal’, and yet scoff at ‘the religious card.’ Therefore, I’m guessing you are an agnostic or an atheist (or at any rate don’t believe in Jehovah), and probably believe in evolution, but still hold some absurdly humanist beliefs, apparently based not on reason but on emotion.  Allow me to explain.

Quick etymology: Good -> God.  Don’t believe in God, don’t believe in Good.  Moral relativity.  See why humanism is so full of sh!t?

I assume you most likely accept the evidence that homo sapiens evolved during the Pleistecene era, a most brutal epoch, and in turn had to become one of the most vicious animals on earth.  The evidence that our first tools were weapons is strong (if not easily deduced).  In fact, one of humanity’s most basic instincts is the urge to kill.  Homicide is an old trait, little more than a knee-jerk response.  That which illicts it more than anything else is territory.

Gangs thrive on territory.  Since inner-city blacks are largely marginalized and poorly educated, gangs were really (from an objective observer’s point of view) a form of black empowerment.  Indeed, Tookie came out of the Black Panther movement, if not directly then indirectly.  When that was stopped by the State, many disgruntled ex-panthers expressed their frustration through other means.  And they tried to get rich.  Isn’t that what America is all about?

I am by no means ‘pro-murder.’ A decent society should take our instincts into consideration, but should sublimate them so that we all evolve in more positive directions.  Scarier still is the right of the State to murder.  It not only implicitly sanctions murder for the sake of vengeance (a very ‘religious card’ thing to do’), but it contradicts ideal popular rule, i.e. those on death row aren’t having their minority rights upheld. 

Of course, if you believe that we’re really less of a democracy and more of a polyarchy, it is scarier still.  A small percentage of rich people determine who lives or dies.  Yikes.

Tookie was an animal.  So are we.  When that fact is embraced, it’s easier to sympathize.  And if humans are somehow better than lower beasts (I don’t think so), then it is sympathy that bestows true humanity.

Running Man?  Televised?  You guys in a rush to outdo imperial Rome?  Aren’t we declining at an appropriate speed?

“America created Tookie Williams, a destructive life taking monster.”

Interesting… so there’s no personal responsibility involved here? There are millions of people from the same disadvantaged and economic class - how is it that “America” picked Tookie above all these other fine folks?

Don’t get me wrong; if Rosebud or Rocco actually took the time to read my comments you’d see that in the end game we’re virtually on the same page, although perhaps we took different paths to get there.  I actually DON’T support the death penalty - as I stated - because of its unfair and biased application. All I was saying, though, was that the reality is that this guy was a cold-blooded, calculating killer who was convicted of FOUR murders and has the blood on his hands of thousands due to his involvement with the crips. Capiche?

And please… spare me the evolution crap and the “‘don’t believe in God, don’t believe in Good” nonsense. What utter rubbish. So what you’re saying is that unless you’re brainwashed into some form of organized religion you have no belief in right/wrong or morality? That is insulting, even to those who have “faith.”

Yes, I referred to Tookie as an “animal,” but you can use another adjective if you prefer. How about “murderer?” “Enabler?” “Career criminal?” “Exploiter?” Do those work better?

This whole discussion has been amusing to me, because as I stated earlier I think most of us are actually on the same page. I agree: humans are no better/worse than “animals,” and I agree that our intellect and capacity for reason/intellect should evoke “sympathy that bestows true humanity.” All I was saying is I don’t think its necessarily “hateful” to not shed a tear for a person who was a manipulative, cold-blooded killer. Worse, he put into place a system that bred more like him, which is just utterly tragic.

Finally, as far as the “pathetic religion card,” not “everyone” turns to “God” when things go south. True, some do, others turn to themselves, family members, etc. But there is one select group who DOES tend to turn to “religion” on a predictable basis: prisonors and the incarcerated, who by the way are unilaterally “innocent” and “wrongly convicted.”

Coincidence? I think not…

g-love - I read everything, and did not contradict nor make redundant any point.  I was merely pointing out inherent logical flaws.  And, please, the word is “capisci”.  Fa un paesano un piacere, eh? 

Your arguments tend to vascillate between detachment and outrage, which I find interesting.  If you are, as you write, wholly detached from this, you rightly will not shed a tear.  But then you wouldn’t shed a tear for his victims either, nor care in any meaningful way for them.  Weren’t the majority of his victims part of the ganglife?  Or is Tookie out of sympathy with you due to the innocents?  Are you gauging sympathy in proportion to the lives lived?

So, then to outrage: career criminal?  I say innovative mammal, adapting to resources and options.  Exploiter?  Ethics and politics are inconsistent.  Tragic?  Tell that to Snoop.  He did just fine.  Gangs made him what he is.  That’s American know-how & gumption.

And finally, as to my short-hand dismissal of the concept of ‘good’: I mean to call into question what it is that you base your standards of right and wrong.  Do you have a point of objectivity (without a Supreme Being) from which to gauge these things?  What is it?  I - and many a modern-day philosopher - await with baited breath.  My guess is your standards are fairly Judeo-Christian.  Again, interesting stuff…

Like Rocco said.

You are all carrying on like bloodthirsty Romans.  You especially Tiny Shrew.  Listen to yourself, and yet you were all love and flowers the other day. 

1) All executions are on pay-per view (Saturday night).

You are a sick little Shrew, aren’t you?

Rabbit is against capital punishment, mainly because it is an easy way out for scum, but also because it is irreversible, as if half one’s life for a crime of which one is innocent is reversible.

It is a measure of the humanity of a society, how they treat both their criminals and the victims of same.

Capital Punishment should perhaps be reserved for “capital crimes”, LIKE FOR EXAMPLE, WAR CRIMES, like TORTURE AND ILLEGAL WMD’s in a war of conquest and genocide.

Rocco, interesting questions!! A nice discussion, for sure. You queried about empathy for the victims vs. Tookie, especially taking into account the fact that a lot of his “victims” were likely gang-bangers themselves. Can you have empathy for people who make a conscious decision to enter into that lifestyle, knowing what the risks are?

Perhaps. But I’m more sympathetic to the innocent bystanders caught in the gunfire of Tookie and his minions. That’s who I really feel for.

A good question on ethics/morality… to me, one doesn’t need God/Allah/Elvis to understand on an inherent basis that things like murder, rape, theft etc are “wrong” or “bad.” That is why I took umbrage with the suggestion that without “God” one can’t embrace “good.” I base this on the fact that most people don’t need to be told that murder is bad, because most people intrinsically feel that if it was committed against them, it would be “bad.” Most people don’t want to die.

Now, some could construe this as “but you’re getting at the do onto others concept, a Judeo-Christian tenent.” I would humbly submit that while do onto others as you would have them do unto you is in fact one of the great “values” espoused by most religions, but I don’t believe one “needs” religion to understand this simple concept.

In the end, as a point of objectivity, I don’t really need a “Supreme Being” to tell me stuff I already know as a thinking, rational and emotional human being. Although a “burrito supreme” sounds really good right about now!

g-love:

Yes America created Tookie Williams and his ilk.  America created the environment, mindset and perceived options.  Williams decided to pursue options that, whether he knew it or not, advanced America’s domestic policies of exploitation, oppression and ethnic cleansing of America’s Black population.  I’m one of those “millions of people from the same disadvantaged and economic class” as Williams and have incarcerated relatives and in-laws and I tell them and anybody else that believes the hype, including Snoop, that they’ve been played and are merely puppets helping to excute the beast agenda.  If you want to feed a starving man you teach him how to fish, if you want control that starving man give him a fish and tell how high to jump for his next meal.  Black gangbangers and thugs are constantly asking; how high?  When Williams finally learned how to fish they shut him down.  America “picked” Williams to do its dirty work and he chased the genie, like a lot of other Black people have done and are doing, then threw him away like a used pamper.  Williams was ultimately responsible for his fate but the objectives America used him to achieve are as consistently inhumane as its manner of his disposal.

“Williams was ultimately responsible for his fate”

Correct.

g-love - Thanks for answering.  I do so love a good banter.

Your definitions of ‘good’ and ‘bad’ do fall under the widely accepted tenants of humanism.  I believe it was John Stuart Mill who posited that the good is whatever brings the greatest happiness to the greatest number of people.  I think that applies to your above claim that ‘most people don’t want to die.’

I have always found this to be intellectually unsatisfying.  It seems to admit moral relativity without following that line of thinking to what seems to me the logical conclusion - that is, there really are no ‘goods’ and ‘bads’. 

It gets more complex when you throw in the X-factor of biological and social mutation.  Are the ‘goods’ of the past not the ‘bads’ of today (female submission, caste systems, loyalty to crown)?  And the ‘bads’ of the past (transgender acceptance, care for the diseased, freedom of choice and creative expression)? 

From the evolutionary point of view, the ‘good’ would be that which furthers evolution, and the ‘bad’ that which hinders it.  Murder would at this point in time be bad (whereas during the Pleistecene it was good).  And perhaps compassion for all is a necessity for breaking out of our ‘Us/Them’ conceptions (which were also good a long time ago). 

So, compassion is compassion, and any unequal divying of it leads to shades of ‘Them’.  I don’t see that as evolution but stagnation, if not the recipe for annihilation in a nuclear age.  I don’t mind for the sake of efficiency the consensus-taking for morality in a social system, but to get to the heart of the matter requires more than faith in one’s ability to ‘already know’, as you claim, what’s good or bad. 

And that leads to the ol’ rabbit hole..............^^............

I misspelled ‘tenent.’ That’s bad.

‘Tenet.’ Damn!

However we may look at this; good or bad; religion or no religion; it comes down to morals and values - in summary, the death penalty does nothing - all it does is feed the eager appetite of those who want to see the black and poor go under.

By the way, this applies all over the world - not just the States!! Aborigines in Australia; Native Americans in America; Maori in New Zealand - wherever there are indigenous peoples; the same atrocities apply - I think it’s time the UN addressed this racial subject - it’s quite obvious, and statistics show that the black, coloured or whatever, are oppressed and abused.

I ask you all to go out there and get to know these so-called “gangbangers.” You will most likely be surprised like everybody else who interviewed Tookie - they expected a gruff, threatening voice; only to receive a soft, compassionate voice.

A stigma is placed on these people, and whether they commit a crime or not; they will continue to be pursued by the Police.

These people are human beings - HUMAN BEINGS - and my intellect sees them as such - not animals to be locked away in prison for most of their life - after reading about death row - it is barbaric and inhumane.

Hey Rosebud,

First of all, it doesn’t matter who commits a crime, they should be punished.  (white, black, rich, poor)

In the last 5 years (2000 - present) 47 white males were sentenced to death in Florida, and 22 black males were sentenced to death.  I think it would be hard to say that blacks are unfairly targeted for the death sentence in Florida when more that twice as many whites were given the death sentence (47 whites to 22 blacks).

And here are the stats for all inmates currently on death row in Florida.
Total WHITE males > 228
Total BLACK males > 129

In the past 5 years (2000 - present) ...... 
> 4 Black males have been executed in FLA
Average time on death row for the 4 Black males was 21.75 years.

And in the past 5 years (2000 - present) ......
> 9 White males have been executed in FLA
Average time on death row for the 9 White males was 11.16 years.

** Black males on average had almost 22 years on death row for appeals **
** White males on average had 11 years on death row for appeals **

The facts clearly show there is NO RACISIM towards blacks on death row in Florida.  Actually, the facts show that white inmates are getting the short end of the stick.  White inmates only get about 11 years to file appeals before being executed, while black inmates get double that time .... almost 22 years to file appeals. 

http://www.dc.state.fl.us/activeinmates/deathrowroster.asp

1. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox.

2. Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with a pure mind a person speaks or acts happiness follows him like his never-departing shadow

3. “He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me.” Those who harbor such thoughts do not still their hatred.

4. “He abused me, he struck me, he overpowered me, he robbed me.” Those who do not harbor such thoughts still their hatred.

5. Hatred is never appeased by hatred in this world. By non-hatred alone is hatred appeased. This is a law eternal.

6. There are those who do not realize that one day we all must die. But those who do realize this settle their quarrels.

Shakyamuni Siddhartha Gotama

From the Dhammapada.  Is this religion? Is it humanism?  Is it just good sense?

Tina,

Interesting score card. Looks like affirmative action has been on a roll.

I wonder if the same imbalance shows up in the victims of these criminals.

Many of my son’s friends are responsible people who happen to be black. However, I must admit my prejudice has increased since the 1964 Civil Rights Act (which I believed would make a level playing field not tilt the other way).

Could it possibly be because:

The burglar who broke into our house was black, armed when caught and only served 3 years of a 12 years sentence.

Or, maybe because the guy who repeatedly held up people at the ATM across the street from my office was black.

Maybe it’s because the one who shot a woman in the head in a botched car-jacking one block from my office was black.

Could it have been that the guy caught steeling from my landlord’s photo studio was black?

How about the black guy who was trying each of the car doors in our office parking lot who pointed his finger at me like a gun when I rapped on the window.

Whatever the conditions that caused those people to become like they are, the numbers overwhelm my good impressions from the few individuals I truly know and make me more suspicious than I want to be.

Your numbers reinforce my impressions.

It is both ironic and hypocritical how conservatives go on about taking personal responsibility.  They always are saying others must be held responsible for their words and actions, but when it comes to their own words and actions they deny any accountability.  Rather, when caught with their hand in the cookie jar, they point at others and say “They do it, too.” What did Jesus say about removing the log in your own eye before criticizing the speck in another’s eye?  To think they like to call themselves ‘Christian’. 

A level of moral development frozen at pre-adolescence.

luminous - Well, we can’t all be Buddhists, can we?  Western Buddhists piss me off.  I do like a good green tea, though.

whattheheck - It’s refreshing to have statistical data which reinforces your departure from logic, isn’t it?  Surely you must know that those figures can lie - show you everything but tell you nothing. 

What made you think that suddenly ending a state policy of second-class citizenry would magically solve the massive social problems of a subjugated people overnight?  It’s only been fifty years - less than a lifetime.  What made you think that children would get their fathers back, women would get their dignity back, children would get their history back, just because we let them vote and go to public schools?

It’s more than poverty.  Surely you realize this.  It’s people like you.

LB,

Hello again.

Not sure who this was refering to.  Conservatives in general? Someone specific whose comments you disagree with?

If mine, I would ask what I am supposed to be denying?  Second, I make no claim to being a Christian so don’t lay it on those guys.

rocco - I suppose hoping we might all embrace a little good sense whatever tradition from which it springs might be a bit too much to ask for.  Would you like me to quote a similar sentiment from Camus or do French Existentialists piss you off more than Buddhists?  How about Malatesta?  He’s Italian.  Or is his Anarchism too off-putting for you?  You must let me know, lest I inadvertently offend you, the constraints you unilaterally impose on who is credible or not, if reason is not your guide. 

I too am fond of green tea, but I prefer expresso; strong, black and bitter.

LB,

What is your objection to personal responsibility?

Seems like Jesus was kind of into that sort of thing. Not so?

rocco,

Sure, I know those numbers may not be accurate. Since I am not going to take any kind of action based on them, it matters little. Mostly my feelings come from my experiences which I listed.

I thought the 1964 Act would lay the ground work for no preferences, racial, sexual, religious as it states. At that time, I had just come back from my first trip to Alabama and my introduction to the “White Only” and “Colored Only” labeling on everything. It was totally disgusting and very surprising how the locals reacted when we told the ticket taker at the theater we would seat our “Colored” friend between us and we’d act as insulation from them. 

What we got instead has been political pimping for votes based on reverse discrimination. College quotas, job preference, school lawsuits, Black History Month, Black TV channel, Black pages advertising, special consideration for government contracts and now, dual language in order to get the Hispanic votes and dollars — all of which only serve to further divide us all.

The only way I can see out of this is to get to know each other individually and by name. Within two houses of my house there now live a Mexican husband and wife, a Muslim family of four and a black family with three little kids. We’ve lived here for 38 years and it was back then an all white neighborhood. When each of these houses was sold to these families (over a period of about 8 or 10 years), there were no protests, no “block-busting,” no exodus, and no big deal made by anyone.  I think without affirmative action things would be better all around.

No, WTH;

Your post wasn’t up yet while I was composing mine.  But to answer your question, I affirm what rocco said;

“It’s more than poverty.  Surely you realize this.  It’s people like you.”

WTH,

I have no problem with personal responsibility.  It’s the hypocrisy of those who demand it of others and make excuses for their own behavior that I have the problem with.

Does the shoe fit?  Why are you squirming around so, if not?  If you are so tolerant of people who are different from you, why do you think respecting those very differences and compensating for real historical inequalities ‘only serve[s] to further divide us’?

luminous beauty - Yeah, pretty much everything pisses me off, so don’t worry about offending me.  And sorry to be pedantic, but it’s ‘eSpresso.’ Just trying to remain consistent.  I hold myself to the same rigid and unforgiving standards of syntactic excellence (see above frustration with ‘tenet’). 

whattheheck - I applaud your open-minded stance on property ownership, and seeing as you lived pre-civil rights movement, I am sure your perspective differs greatly from my own.  Even Bill Cosby sounds racist to me these days.  So I do try to remain open myself as to the pros and cons of affirmative action.  It’s flawed, to be sure.  Though I do think that some real federal effort is necessary to create a better reparations program to quell the inequities of the social nightmare that is black America. 

I do stand by my “it’s people like you” statement, however.  The inability to separate actions from a particular race - as evidenced by your listing of black criminals - is an example of the psychological barriers which necessitate affirmative action in the first place.  After listing as you did, can you honestly tell me that you’d hire a black guy who didn’t act ‘white’ (whatever that means)?  I think that the mentality of categorizing black culture as ‘other’ - when it is more authentically American than, say, me - is the problem writ large. 

I heard a historian say recently that we’re still fighting the Civil War, and the North could very well lose.  I think they already have.

AN historian.  See what I mean, luminous?  It’s my own personal hell.

whattheheck - One last thought: after re-reading your last post, I was struck by the fact that you considered a black TV channel and dual languages divisive.  Biology loves diversity, and it would seem to me that a proper social system should follow.  Is not the global populace multi-lingual and multi-ethnic?  Why shouldn’t we allow for many different faces on TV, or different voices? 

America to me is more of a thought than a place.  Its greatest potential always lay in its open character.  Benjamin Franklin once quipped that the Founders were setting an example for humanity to follow.  He embraced Indian and African culture.  As much as I love Europe, I was struck by its homogeneity.  The Italians are the most xenophobic people on earth: they don’t even like each other. 

Isn’t the American land just a giant petri dish for intermixing of ideas and genes?  I think we would do well to remain open to it all.  And for god sakes, learn to speak Spanish.  It’s loco!

rocco, you have no idea how humiliated I am about not writing ‘espresso’.  Looking forward to offending you in the future.

LB,

“It’s more than poverty.  Surely you realize this.  It’s people like you.”

If your so wonderfully tolerant and understanding, isn’t it a bit hypocritical to be blaming me for the problems of the nation and the world? What was that part about a mote and a log again?

So, go hug a bigot. OK? :-)

Sure it’s more than poverty. I believe some of the good intentions of War on Poverty in the 70s backfired the way trying to do too much for your own kids can.

As for denial… I’ll deny that I’m squirming. 

That’s probably because I accept no blame or guilt for what I had no part in bringing about. I am willing only to accept guilt or blame for my own actions and I have no Messiah complex to satisfy. I am not a social worker and kept pretty busy making a living to support my own family.

I’m just trying to understand what you are so hostile about. You, Wiley and several others on this site seem to have a massive chip on the shoulder.

--------------------------------
“If you are so tolerant of people who are different from you, why do you think respecting those very differences and compensating for real historical inequalities ‘only serve[s] to further divide us’?”

“...federal effort is necessary to create a better reparations program to quell the inequities of the social nightmare that is black America.”

“ I think that the mentality of categorizing black culture as ‘other’ - when it is more authentically American than, say, me - is the problem writ large.”

“ I was struck by the fact that you considered a black TV channel and dual languages divisive.”
---------------------------------

A bunch of somewhat related ideas above.

History is full of inequities - too many to ever straighten out. Each nationality or race has their own to deal with. Everyone should start with a clean slate at birth and go from there. That seems to me to be an adequate goal for us. Life is not fair and yes, most of us in this country have it better than most of the rest of the world. Appreciate it,don’t lament it. Isn’t that why so many try to squeeze in?

Consider the statement, “ I think that the mentality of categorizing black culture as ‘other’...is the problem writ large.”

Affirmative action, black TV, etc. alternative language are factors which categorize people as “other.” “White TV channel” would do the same thing. It hearkens back to the “Whites Only’ and “Colored Only” of forty years ago.  All of these things are divisive rather than uniting.

Do we really “need” to do special things for blacks and Hispanics? Other races seem to do very well without it.  Asians, for example excel in school and business. The reality, IMO, is politicians and businesses go for the majority minorities. (Not an oxymoron.) The rest are left to their own devices.

A friend of mine lived in India during the 1950s. He told me they had eleven major languages at that time.  English, due to 300 years of British colonialism was the majority language. The inability to communicate in the same language seems obviously divisive to me. Look how much trouble we are having using just one.

I am not a citizen of the world. I am an American and am not about to learn all the other languages. If I chose to live in another country I would expect to need to learn that native tongue as did my Swedish ancestors a hundred years ago. Language is a great uniter. I would also tend to adopt their traditions rather than expect them to defer to mine. (Although I’m sure we would maintain family traditions in the home.)

As for hiring someone of any other color, it would indeed depend on the person’s qualifications. The criminal list I submitted just influences my impressions due to the weighting of number of blacks verses whites. Two of the three armed robberies I witnessed were done by whites and the guns pretty much tipped me off they were up to no good.

luminous - Happens to the best of us.  Normally I don’t point out that kind of stuff, since I think it’s usually a cheap rhetorical device, and just poor etiquette.  I have decided only to point out when people misspell Italian words, thus fortifying my own online goomba persona.

whattheheck - Hm.  Well, you certainly have a strong sense of self, I’ll grant you that. 

James Joyce wrote in Ulysses: “History is a nightmare from which I am constantly trying to awake.” I think this is appropriate to your ‘tabula rasa’ theory for human equality.  Unlike most species, humans obtain artificial alpha status through the abstract concept of money; the overwhelming majority of animals are without history, and the cream rises to the top.  Not so with us.  George W. Bush is not the finest specimen we have to offer. 

Of course life is not fair.  If it were, deliberations such as these wouldn’t be necessary.  We’re trying to make it more fair.

We’re admittedly discussing ideal courses of action which will most probably never be implemented; but in such an academic exercise, are you really going to cut out the past as a real variable in the conditions of the present?  Are you taking the socioeconomic position of the inner-city student into consideration?  The quality of that education in said inner-city?  Doesn’t world history play a role in these factors?  Wouldn’t a mature society try to rectify past mistakes? 

You rightly point out that they’re coming here because life is good.  That shows a strong survival instinct.  Most immigrants - particularly from Latin America - didn’t come here wholly voluntarily.  The history of US dominance in that region is pretty ugly.  If you fled from persecution to Sweden, maybe learning English wouldn’t be high on your priority list (wouldn’t matter - all Swedes speak English...one of the perks of being world citizens).  Somewhat relevant anecdote: my great-grandfather fled Italy AWOL from WWI, and refused to speak English till the day he died at 91).

Again, we as Americans have a great heritage of intellectual tolerance and innovation.  It’s a pity to see us become so horribly...European.  These days, the Europeans are more American than we are.  Well, maybe not.  I’ll never forgive those bastards for their crimes.  See what a nightmare is history?

Addendum - regarding Asians, you can’t compare apples to oranges.  Asia - specifically China, India, and Japan - had a rich educational history until its subjugation by Europe in the 19th century.  Therefore it wasn’t as difficult to battle the pressures of domination by whitey, and is why they now thrive, both as immigrants and independent nations.

Africans and American Indians, however, were tribal societies, and were ripped away from their cultural base through indoctrination.  If you wish to point to their tribal status as evidence of their genetic or social inferiority, I would direct you to the book ‘Guns, Germs, and Steel’ as a counterpoint.

Insomma: history matters.  Unless you’re a quantum physicist.  Or a goddamn Buddhist.

Aww, WTH ya big old bigoted goose,

C’mere, lemme give ya a big hug!  Awwwwwwww! Awwwwwww!  Poor feller! Awwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww!

Feelin’ better now?  Eh? 

You know guy, you’re absolutely right.  It’s not all your fault and it’s not all your personal responsibility to put right all the wrongs of the world.

It’s not about you at all.

It’s about us. 

How inclusive can you make that word?  Or is there some kind of limiting device on your imagination?  Really?

hey, how are you guys doing italics and bold?  HTML?  I suddenly feel handicapped.

html tags:

< i >italic< / i >

< b >bold< / b >

< blockquote >blockquote< / blockquote >

< a href="url" > Link < / a >

with no spaces inside the parentheses.

cool

whattheheck,

Since the liberal media never likes to report “black on white” crime ....  someone showed me this website.

http://www.newnation.org/NNN-Black-on-White.html

< a href="url" > http://www.newnation.org/NNN-Black-on-White.html< / a >

< a href="url" > www.newnation.org/NNN-Black-on-White.html< / a >

Also, every state should do what JEB BUSH did in Florida.

1) Jeb Bush proposed the toughest gun-crime law in the nation: 10-20-Life. Under 10-20-Life, a felon who used a gun to commit a crime like armed robbery would face at least 10 years in state prison. If he shot the gun, 10-20-Life increased the mandatory prison penalty to 20 years. If the armed robber shot someone, the Governor’s proposed 10-20-Life law increased the mandatory prison sentence to 25 years-to-life. In addition, the Governor’s proposal created a new mandatory 3-year prison term for any felon who even possessed a gun, regardless whether the felon used the gun during a crime.

The results under 10-20-Life are impressive. In only six years, from 1998-2004, 10-20-Life has helped drive down violent gun crime rates 30 percent statewide.

http://www.dc.state.fl.us/pub/10-20-life/index.html

2) “Violent, sexual crimes against our innocent children are perhaps the most heinous imaginable. The added protections from the Jessica Lunsford Act will provide law enforcement with the tools necessary to protect children from sexual offenders and predators,” Governor Bush said. “This new law complements our already very strong laws and regulations we have implemented to address sexual predators and sexual offenders. The creation of the SAFE unit will help to ensure our law enforcement agencies are working together efficiently to protect our children.”

On May 2 Governor Bush signed the Jessica Lunsford Act into law with the father of the slain 9-year-old at his side. The legislation strengthens punishment and monitoring of child sex abusers and requires those who prey on children to be sentenced to at least 25 years in prison, and to be tracked for life by electronic monitoring devices, if they are ever released.

http://www.dc.state.fl.us/secretary/press/news/lunsfordact.html

3) You can view all the inmates in Florida.  It will show their picture, crime, sentence and approx. release date.  You can also see who has been released and who is on probation.

http://www.dc.state.fl.us/ActiveInmates/

4) You can view all inmates that have been released.

http://www.dc.state.fl.us/InmateReleases/

Whatever the numbers are, let’s not get carried away with Florida, as if it was some kind of “model” state that the rest of us should envy. NOT!

Also, someone wrote: “James Joyce wrote in Ulysses: “History is a nightmare from which I am constantly trying to awake.” Love it! This is about the only thing I understand of Ulysses…

Tina,

I have been a member of the NRA for twenty + years and a firm believe in tough mandatory penalties for gun violations.

Florida and about 30 other states have gone to “Must Issue” carry permits — ours has made it next to impossible to get one.  When my office neighborhood became a shooting gallery, I began carrying a pistol from my car to my office. (I often went in between 4 and 5 AM and in winter it was pretty dark and lonely.) When the governor changed it from a $25 misdemeanor to a felony to carry w/o a permit, I moved my work home.

I think the Jessica Lunsford Act should be a Federal law. Vermont is a real puzzle to me.

Last week in The Week magazine I saw a state has just decided prisoners can sleep in shifts. I sent this idea to both my Congressman and State rep.15 or 20 years ago, but they thought it too degrading. Hey, our Navy has been “hot bunking” for decades — one bunk, three shifts. Not too degrading for some, I guess.

Rocco,

“We’re admittedly discussing ideal courses of action which will most probably never be implemented; but in such an academic exercise, are you really going to cut out the past as a real variable in the conditions of the present?”

Now you tell me! I’ve been taking about real life.

If you want to dream, OK, I’d make the playing field level world wide. All kids get and education, at least two caring, loving family members (with very good genes) — the girls are pretty and the boys are fine athletes. Everyone is intelligent and considerate of others.

However, if we are talking the ideal, there is nothing left to discuss.
----------------

I have been expressing my opinions and what I think of as reality and probable based on my experiences and interpretations of them. Doesn’t mean they are the only way or the right way, just my way. (apologies to Old Blue Eyes)

Now, with that in mind:

You said, “If you fled from persecution to Sweden, maybe learning English wouldn’t be high on your priority list (wouldn’t matter - all Swedes speak English...one of the perks of being world citizens).”

Wrong! Now, yes. (At least the young people do. We are in touch with several of my wife’s relatives there.)

My ancestors came because there was no future there in the 1890s.  They were farmers and if you didn’t own the land, there wasn’t much of a present either. 

My grandfather and his three brothers couldn’t buy land here either, so they all worked in the mines knowing they could make it better for the next generation. I know more Swedish than my father or his nine siblings. Their father’s approach was, “Now we are Americans, so we’ll only talk American.”

The last of the 10 kids, my 98 year-old aunt, just died 2 weeks ago. None were wealthy, but all were better educated, self supporting, responsible citizens and made it better for my generation.

My father-in-law came from Sweden at age 19 all alone and speaking no English. His first job was cleaning the muck from the holds of ore boats on Lake Michigan. He learned English at night school and when he died, had become a competent machinist, owned his home and was an ardently patriotic American.

Except for one three year period in a large corporation (I hated it.) and my military service, I was self employed all my life and worked rather long hours.

I’m not saying nothing should be done to help disadvantaged people, (Certainly we must not intentionally hinder them .) but I believe we should not try to give too much. 

My advice to my kids is expect nothing (financially) from the government because they have nothing to give without first taking it from someone.

For people to be helped, they must first want to be helped and should make an effort on their own. There will always be someone who has it better than you, easier than you, better looking than you. You start from where you are and work with what you have.

whattheheck - that was an interesting interpretation of what I had written, and an even more interesting dismissal of it.  Followed by a personal anecdote.  None of it dealt seriously with any of my points, nor did you counter any of them with logic.  But that’s okay.  I’ll follow.

This discussion board is an academic exercise.  We aren’t determining public policy on this site.  And everybody is talking about real life.  Besides, my dreams are a lot more interesting than the Nazi suburban utopia you drew out (why not pretty boys and athletic girls? Like Greece?). 

So in academic exercises, you draw up logical plans towards an ideal vanishing point, as it were.  That’s what I meant.  Though I think you knew that.  The fantasy would be to leave out recent history as a point of consideration, which you had suggested, and to start everybody at zero.  That in my estimation is a large departure from reality.

As for your geneological story: tally-ho.  Now imagine that your grandfather and father-in-law were immigrants from Haiti.  Unlike Sweden, Haiti’s poverty was due directly to US intervention.  Thomas Jefferson began an embargo immediately after the slave revolt that ended white Haitian rule, under the logic that it could be a cancer that spread to American slaves.  US policy impoverished Haiti immediately, and has continued a brutal policy in Haiti to the present day.

So your black Haitian grandfather and father-in-law may have had comparable experiences with land ownership and jobs (all immigrants are intially shunned socially), but their children came out as white as Shirley Temple, no?  Slap a Midwest accent on them, and they’re as good as an Anglo.  Blended real easily into the next generation. 

In the 1890’s, a Haitian probably would go through Florida, an ex-Confederate state still smarting from Civil War, but victorious in the Reconstruction.  So your grandpa and father-in-law would have had it pretty tough.  I doubt that their Swedish counterparts were ever hanged for talking to white women (like their Swedish wives). 

They would be wage slaves, and their children wage slaves, without the right to vote.  They would be marginalized from schools and jobs.  This tore apart the social structure (along with an already 200 year history of ripping families apart when selling slaves). 

I could go on.  But again, you’re comparing apples to oranges.  Please contradict the fact that the history of Haiti, or American blacks, or Mexican Indian peasants, is not relevant to the US government’s actions.  Or that historical wrongs should not be compensated.  You may cite text.

I’m not saying nothing should be done to help disadvantaged people, (Certainly we must not intentionally hinder them .) but I believe we should not try to give too much.

George Carlin once wrote (paraphrasing): “Republicans say that if we can’t raise taxes for the rich, or they’ll lose all incentive to work.  They also say if we don’t cut welfare, the poor won’t work because they’ve lost all incentive.”

Reminds me of something I heard once, attributed to Kropotkin, “If the rich weren’t greedy, they wouldn’t be rich.”

Rocco,

What I meant by not give to much, was in the same vein as not giving your kids too much or they won’t be able to go it alone.

So give them a job if you can, but if you give handouts without them doing any work, they just come back again and again with a sob story about needing just $19.63 to get the car fix so they can go to a job waiting for them in the next town. When you call them on it the reply? “That wasn’t me. You white guys think we all look alike.”

I’ll tell you what, if you are talking real life then, forget the academic exercise, “Give all your money to the poor and store up your treasures in heaven.” Better still take in a few Haitians at your house.

You and LB can solve all the problems of the world in theory, or continue to blame them on people like me (or “us” if you want to share the guilt). You’ll continue to feel very self-satisfied.

Whence comes your vitirol, whattheheck? 

I never blamed you for anything.  I just double-checked.  And you are engaging in a theoretical discussion as well, so I don’t understand your paradoxical disdain for theory.

Nor do I take any blame.  I do think we have a responsibility for the actions of our government, if you take the concepts of democracy seriously.  That includes past actions. 

Did you believe that it was right for Germany to pay reparations?  Or that Swiss banks that got rich off money that the Nazis stole from Jews owe that money to Holocaust survivors? 

I think that example is pretty similar to the South - and the US in general (see Ford Motor Company’s policy of hiring blacks in the 20s) - making a lot of money off slavery and sharecropping. Or does the Holocaust also fall into the ‘Life’s not fair’ category?  If so, I would question why you care passionately about any change.  You can always shrug your shoulders and say ‘that’s the way it is’. 

Store my treasures in heaven.  Right.  What are you talking about?

Last point about theory: theorizing is a big part of the scientific method.  Science is a way of determining the most accurate, the most precise findings of a given subject.  These theories must be practically applied as a test.  Then you reassess, and see if the result matches the hypothesis.  If not, you come up with a better theory, now a bit more battle-tested. 

Don’t show such utter contempt for processes of rational thought, and their profound relationship with correct action.  It marks one as emotional and flighty.  Complex problems deserve serious analysis, not assumptions based on personal anecdotes.  People assumed that the earth wasn’t moving based on similar ‘common sense’ attitudes.  Some people still do.

What was the subject, again?  Capital Punishment, was it?
Racial and Class inequities involved?  That’s a given.  Always been.  Hasn’t ended because of MLK Day, f’r sure. 

Not a valid argument for these rugged individualist, market magic types.  “Bootstraps! Personal Responsibility! Hrrrmph!  Hrrrrmph! Life isn’t Fair! Society Doesn’t Owe You A Living!  Hrrrrmph!  Never Give An Inch!  Kiss My White Ass! Hrrrrmph! Harrrrumph!” So predictable because it never changes.  Hail the Imperturbable Planet--’Conservative’.

My question is; if one truly believes in limited government, why, except in the deepest basement of Hell, would one wish to place the power of deciding life and death in the hands of the State?

whattheheck,

Sounds like your state doesn’t get it.  Tough gun laws are not suppose to punish law abiding citizens like you, they should punish criminals.

Florida’s laws only punish criminals/felons who use a gun for a robbery, not someone like you. 

Hopefully the NRA is vocal in your state and talking with the lawmakers to make some changes.

“Chicagoans: On Monday, January 23, at noon, Dave Eggers will present a reading and discussion of Surviving Justice at Quimby’s (1854 W. North Ave.). He will be joined by exoneree James Newsome, who was wrongfully convicted of murdering a convenience-store clerk and was eventually exonerated after spending 15 years in prison.” - www.McSeeneys.net

A bit of last minute notice but if you care about the death penalty they are some great people to support if you are in the area. Right in Bucktown. Eggers would be promoting one of his new works- “Surviving Justice: America’s Wrongfully Convicted and Exonerated”.

It’s held in 826 Chicago’s tutor center. Amazing place to check out nontheless.

I’m against capital punishment because it is impossible for the state to ensure that the felon they’re killing is the actual perpetrator of the crime. Yes, I’m aware of the advances in collection of forensic evidence. As far as I’m concerned, this is one decision that requires 100% accuracy. 99.9% is not good enough; when the state kills an innocent, the price becomes too high.

What do you do then, say “oops, sorry” to their families and pay them off with blood money?

Beyond that, if we’re going to make a show out of executions, we feed impulses and attitudes in the citizenry that are nothing less than bloodthirsty. Is that the kind of society we should evolve into? Are we not bloodthirsty enough now? Why degrade ourselves ever further?

Much of the frustration people feel in response to these questions relates to some of the points posted above. Ridiculously short sentences for violent criminals just provokes loss of respect for the justice system, as well as an appetite for retribution which can take on a tone of irrationality. I’ve heard it said from several law enforcment officers I’ve met that a first-time rapist can easily get a shorter sentence than a first-time drug dealer. What the hell kind of system permits such a thing??

Sentencing should be decided at least in large part upon the level of harm to people resulting from the crime. To give some bullshit light sentence to a killer or rapist or molestor of children is so unconscionable that it boggles the mind. The very practice of considering it in any way proper is a measure of the depravity of the debate. Our minds are becoming screwed up by the process of arguing, until argumentation or philosophizing becomes the point instead of preventing harmful people from victimizing others, or punishing them when they do.

Since I don’t believe the state can be correct 100% of the time, and since execution is too final a solution to allow less-than-perfect confidence to guide the decision, I say use incarceration better. Crimes that directly harm others should lead to sentences that really make the message clear, you do not have any justification for hurting people no matter what shitty circumstances you grew up in or whatever crap justification you think you have, no matter what sociohistorical victimization your ancestors had to suffer through. For modern society to give the benefit of the doubt on grounds like that is to pave the way for excusing virtually any crime. After all, who in the world’s ancestors never suffered any form of discrimination or victimization ever? Is there anyone? I sincerely doubt it. Am I owed a bend-over-backwards compensation because of the fact that my Irish ancestors got fucked over in NYC 150 years ago? Or the fact that my more-distant ancestors in the Chesapeake region were indentured, and often treated worse than slaves of that day? Or because I was raised by a single mom and we were broke most of the time? Of course not!

Crimes that are property-related, like theft or fraud, should possibly not include jail time. Who was impressed with the 5 month sentence given to Martha Stewart? What a joke, and an expensive one at that, considering the cost of keeping people in jail. Confiscation of some part of her assets and garnishment of a portion of earnings in a way that left a lasting impression might have been a better approach.

Kuya - Re sentencing: the majority of people in jail are drug-related, and the majority of them are marijuana-related.  Therefore the real criminals have to be juggled around a bit.  So, decriminalize drug use - or at least marijuana - and watch the space appear.

And to respond to your position on punitive theory: there are 2 main schools of thought.  One is punishment for the sake of punishment (the vengeance quotient) and the other is reform/rehabilitation.  This last has been pretty much discarded.  I can think of few exceptions - boot camp for violent teens, a diving school (which had a great success rate).

I don’t know that sentencing would depend at all upon defenses of victimization (I don’t really know the facts one way or another in today’s world).  Though a good defense lawyer should try anything to keep their client out of America’s awful prison system, and definitely off death row. 

Re ‘compensation towards the Irish’:  the Irish as a people created a political class almost immediately upon.  They were indeed second-class citizens, but not near the level of blacks.  Indeed, all one has to do is read from the dissident literature from the time of the Irish draft riots in NYC during the Civil War. Irish-American sympathy for the South was near solid, and one realizes that they too considered blacks to be sub-human (the Irish were scared they’d lose their shitty jobs to even cheaper labor).  And the Irish never needed an Constitutional amendment to enter American life.

Point being: the black subjugation was institutional policy with lasting effects.  A functional democracy would attempt in a meaningful way to right past social wrongs it had committed to a segment of its own people.  South Africa is attempting this currently.

Hello rocco,
It’s interesting that you would make reference to the drug war and the packing of America’s jails because of it. I had been writing more about that aspect for inclusion in the post above, but deleted that bit because the post was getting long already. I personally think that de-crim’ing cannabis is the only sane option, and I’d be quite willing to look at doing the same with other party chemicals/herbs/fungi.

To incarcerate someone just because they want to get high presumes that your mind and body do not belong to you. Something in me wants to classify that attitude as being psychotic. To whom does this body belong, if not to the consciousness that resides within it? Now, if someone harms another while high, that’s another matter, but to prosecute the mere behavior itself is nonsense. The negative effects of prohibition outweigh its justification.

It is certainly also true that people of African descent have suffered a special status, compared to the array of groups who have endured harsh or inhumane treatment in America. No other group was legally defined as chattel, i.e. property without the qualities of personhood. However, I cannot see that as being used as a justification for any person, African-descended or not, to harm another. Africans and others are owed a fair shake in America (I would note tribal natives as also being a group with a debt of social justice still owing). Still, particularly when it comes to violent crime, but also in relation to fraud, theft, and other property-crimes, I still can’t see using historical victimization as a defense. It’s irrelevant. If I hurt you or steal from you, I should not be allowed to get away with it. That really seems axiomatic to me.

Busy Rabbit, hops by, Rocco so you were kidding us with your I am God routine?  If thou knowest not how to do HTML then you do not hold the keys to the world of the ITT web.  You are not the messiah, “you are a naughty little boy!” instead.  Other than that merry wacking of the trolls Lume, Rocco and Kuya too ya.

Rabbit shall be by soon.  Don’t be frightened little Trolls he will just watch without wacking a bit.  Sure that Lume and Rocco can wreak havoc upon any combinations of WTH, InHisMind and Tiny Shrew.

Cheers for now.

BTW there is another hopper about and he is a Frog.

Wonder what he will make of our Trio of Trolls.

If any of you trolls prefer to be called morons instead let the rabbit know he is anxious to not offend your wee heads.

Tina1, to say that there is no racism in the Florida justice system based on the figures you provide is a highly questionable.

You say that of the 357 people currently on death row 228 are white and 129 are black.  Converted into a percentage that means 63% of the death row population are white and 36% are black.

The problem here is that only 14.6% of the total population of the state of Florida are black, while 78% are white. 

Relative to the general population a larger percentage of blacks than whites are on death row in Florida.  Unless you are one of these idiots who believe blacks are genetically inferior to whites you have to except that the justice system and society in general is unfairly weighted in some way against black people in Florida.

I got my figures from the federal government’s official census page.

Rocco,

“Whence comes your vitriol, whattheheck?”

Sorry, I was in too much of a hurry and lumped everything into one rant. It is others at this site who are on a share-the-guilt trip. They always remind me of the old Saturday Night Live line,“Jane, you ignorant slut.” Not the best way for opening an exchange.

However, I was a bit frustrated with not having gotten my point across to you as indicated by your reply,

“whattheheck - that was an interesting interpretation of what I had written, and an even more interesting dismissal of it.  Followed by a personal anecdote.  None of it dealt seriously with any of my points, nor did you counter any of them with logic.”

My post was in response mostly to your earlier comments and questions as follows,
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“whattheheck - One last thought: after re-reading your last post, I was struck by the fact that you considered a black TV channel and dual languages divisive.  Biology loves diversity, and it would seem to me that a proper social system should follow.  Is not the global populace multi-lingual and multi-ethnic?  Why shouldn’t we allow for many different faces on TV, or different voices?” 
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IMO social systems survive on their unity, not their diversity.  Of course we all have individual characteristics, but a common language is and has been a great unifying quality. When people speak in a language you can’t understand, it is too easy to slip into suspicion they are talking about you or plotting against you.

My “anecdotes” were to point out a couple of things. By learning English as soon as possible, my relatives and ancestors were able to build a better life WITHOUT special considerations. They also realized THEY were the ones who had to do it — NOT their new country. They worked at blending in not only with language, but also their clothing and national customs.

As for, “Why shouldn’t we allow for many different faces on TV, or different voices?” 

That is not what I said, not the same as a special channel named, “Black TV Channel.” Think of the reaction “White TV Channel” would bring. The same goes for “The Black Pages directory.”

People can’t have it both ways. If minorities want to be assimilated fine. But, forty years after The Civil Rights Act, many seem to be so absorbed in Black is Beautiful, Black Heritage, Black Power, that they are giving the signals that sound a lot like, “Jane, you ignorant slut.” but still think society should cater to them.

Many things have improved for racial minorities in my lifetime. It seems self evident that dread locks, taking African names, clothing styles and speaking a dialect unintelligible to many others is counter productive. Perhaps the worst aspect of setting themselves apart is when they criticize others as “Oreos” or “acting white”.

(continued)

Kuya - I assumed you were carrying on WTH’s logic in an earlier post.  Wasn’t talking about lighter sentencing for criminals based on race, but a reparations program, which would presumably cause a decline in violent crime.  Economic status and education work pretty well in stopping crime. 

To be honest, I don’t care deeply about property crime.  But that would probably go down too. 

Unfortunately, I think America is far too racist to ever consider such an option.  And they don’t want us educated, either.  We might actually all agree on this stuff, and stop going to church. 

Rabbit: I am that I am.

(Yesterday too little time — today too much.)

Affirmative action has extended prejudice into another generation. Another anecdote (I will give only one.)
My dentist’s son had excellent grades, but could not get into the state med school due to the quota system. This was twenty years ago, but you can bet he hasn’t forgotten. Was whatever was gained worth it?

The future is, I think, going to be even worse for, blacks in general.

Globalization has taken millions of jobs and continues to do so. Illegals are now taking the ones at the lower level, but as the high end ones disappear, jobs will go to those who are better educated (Look at the ages of many now at McDonald’s, your local Home Depot, etc.) This downward move and the Hispanics pushing from the other end will not be a pretty thing.

Anyone who could not make it during the past 20 years of prosperity will have a devil of a time ahead. I know too many people who once had good jobs and are now working w/o benefits at low pay.

I expect we will see more Tookies, not fewer.

You said I had a strong sense of self. (I have a plaque over my desk which reads, “If I don’t do it, it doesn’t get done.”

The people we remember as making this country had a much stronger sense than I do or we wouldn’t have it so good for so many. The cup is more than half full.

People are will to pay to be smuggled in the U.S. Willing to hide from the law. Willing to do these things (real handicaps) for a chance to make a better life for their families. While I favor legal immigration, I can understand why they do it. They are, in my experience, generally very hard working people and doing a good job.

Reparations?  No! This situation is not the same as the Nazis confiscating the Jews’ property. Not the same as our putting Japanese in camps in WW2. (Both despicable!)
too long, the Civil War has been over long enough, The Civil Rights Act around long enough. Whiners like Jesse Jackson could take a page from Bill Cosby. As far as I can see Jackson has never held a real job. He has found a parade and jumped in front to champion the idea that, “You are owed something.” This attitude has held people back while others coming is recent times are advancing.

“The last of the great human freedoms is our choice of attitude.” — Viktor Frankel, holocost survivor

It is time to GET OVER IT and get on with the only life you have to work with!
---------------------------
Sorry to be so wordy. BTW, I’m an artist, not a scientist — maybe that’s why I go more for “illlustrating” with stories than data or theories.

As you had too little time yesterday, so I do today: I’m going to Miami Beach - la isla mas bonita en el estado para trabajar.  See, it’s not so bad, is it? 

Miami is a good example: the Cuban, and subsequent South American, immigration has made Miami one of the most interesting cities in America.  The diverse atmosphere is unique, and gives Miami a unity.  You want to be bilingual here. 

Switzerland is another example.  4 languages in a country the size of 2 Rhode Islands and a Delaware.  They’re oddly unified.  Maybe it’s because they at least 2 to 3 languages from birth. 

Your ancestors did have special consideration.  They were white.  If they had been black, your life would be different. 

We do have a white TV channel.  It’s called Every Channel On the Friggin’ Knob Except BET Channel. 

If Nazi Germany was 60 years ago, and the Civil Rights Movement began 40 years ago, why is black subjugation less relevant than the Holocaust?  We didn’t kill enough blacks?  Not enough families were destroyed?

I think you are blaming people for not overcoming tremendous obstacles that you did not have.  What’s that Milton quote?  “They who have put out the people’s eyes, reproach them of their blindness.”

I do agree that it is time to get over it, as you say.  Life’s too short, and everyone needs to outgrow their childhood mythologies.  That’s what evolution, in the social realm, is all about. 

For you as well.  Get over the fact that your boyhood mythologies were lies, perpetrated upon you in order to make you submissive to the dominant hegemon.  It’s easy to tell that to others...very difficult to look in the mirror and say the same.

Both an artist and a scientist should you be.  Ambidexterity is the way to the Promised Land...Miami.

WTH,

What is your problem with personal responsibility?

It is most scurrilously disingenuous and evasive of you to frame the notion of personally taking responsibility for dealing with the injustices of the society in which one lives as ‘feeling guilty’ and ‘accepting blame’ for historical events, to which you then categorically refuse any connection or relevance.  This, on its face, is a denial of personal responsibility.

To say that others must embrace the same cultural, or to be more precise, lack of, cultural values that is your heritage is the epitome of bigoted prejudice. 

Yes, you are a bigot.  You are in deep, deep denial.  You are part of the problem.  When will you realize it is time to become part of the solution?  You’re an old man, WTH.  There isn’t much time left for you.

An artist?  Fooled me.  A bullshit artist, yeah.

Rocco,

“Your ancestors did have special consideration.  They were white.  If they had been black, your life would be different.”

That’s a given.

I’ll spare you the stories of what it was like for them, but it wasn’t easy for any first generation foreigners. The mine work was as bad as anything Ford could dish out. What difference if killed by hired thugs or State Militia?
----------------------

“We do have a white TV channel.  It’s called Every Channel On the Friggin’ Knob Except BET Channel.”

Come on,— take a look at how many blacks there are now on “Every Channel On the Friggin’ Knob.” Then see how many whites are on BET.

The name itself is obviously distriminating.
----------------------
“If Nazi Germany was 60 years ago, and the Civil Rights Movement began 40 years ago, why is black subjugation less relevant than the Holocaust?  We didn’t kill enough blacks?  Not enough families were destroyed?”

IMO black families have been destroyed by the same kind of government interference you want more of. It paid girls to have kids outside of marriage — the more you have the more you get each month. Helping to destroy the family as well as curtailing the education for the mothers way too soon.

Special benefits to a single group lowers their self image. Like we think they can’t hack it without an edge.
----------------------

“Life’s too short, and everyone needs to outgrow their childhood mythologies.”

I have none. I had no prejudice against any race until after 1964. When I was in the service in the 50s, we got along just fine whatever color. I was in favor of the Civil Rights Movement. It got our minister fired and I left the church. I have written before about my intro to genuine full-bodied racism in Alabama in 1963.

My wife was a teacher’s aide at a predominantly black school in the early 70s. It was a real eye opener of the decline of the black family. One of her favorite little girls (when in first grade) was pregnant at age 12. End of a promising education and a better next generation.

We aren’t killing them any more around here — they are killing each other.

Note: I find it interesting that their “collateral damage” is better tolerated on this site than ours in Iraq. Anyone killed there is scored as our fault. Right LB?

Still haven’t left for Miami...what’s wrong with me?

Wait, so the government programs to help blacks actually destroyed their family base because it ‘paid girls to have kids out of marriage?’ So they weren’t destroyed before