Quietly, the war on terror, in which everything is permitted, has laid the ground work for the Bush administration to intrude into the political life of citizens. Over the last several months, it has been revealed that the FBI, the Pentagon and the National Security Agency have each set up apparently independent covert operations to monitor the constitutionally protected political… return to article
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Reader Comments (176)Wiley,
“...If one is a figment of imagination, then one is not real, and cannot have a brain that is the instrument of the imagination of the person who can’t be a figment of their own imagination.”
I rest my case
Posted by whattheheck on Feb 8, 2006 at 8:04 AM LB,
(Note: I’m paraphrasing your comment here to make a point.)
----------------------
“If the Danish cartoons are insulting ‘all Muslims’ then I would say that is a ‘generic’ rather than a ‘personal’ insult for the simple reason that ‘all Muslims’ is not a person. I think the Danish cartoons are directing their irony at those particular Muslims who have made death threats. If any Muslims take this insult personally, that implies that they are in agreement with those who have sent death threats. If that is so, then I would not in any way defend their perception of offense. Why do you if, you believe death threats are not defensible speech?”
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Rall cartoon: Generic? Possibly, but also all inclusive. Using the same criteria, we could say the cartoons were generic or all inclusive of Muslims. I don’t hear people saying “all Muslims” are threatening, do you?From Rall’s cartoon:
“OK, you’re a Republican, you guys (Republicans) work overtime to get U.S. cartoonists fired.” He then names one Republican, Alan Keyes, and says, “...you people laughed.”
Well, if I had heard this I would have laughed too — at Alan Keyes — just as I do when that idiot Robertson spouts off.
Sidebar: Did you notice he uses the term, “you people” (Republicans)? Ross Perot was booed out of the NAACP meeting for that.
I find it interesting how much generalizing goes on here, regardless of the topics discussed. People who express an opposing point of view are quickly categorized, labeled, and dismissed as idiots, unthinking dolts, or co-conspirators. It seems to be pro-American is automatically deemed retarded or to have dreams of world conquest.You pretty well painted the acceptable picture and the dismissal, “We’re involved in an illegal and immoral foreign occupation abroad and approaching unbridled tyranny at home. Meanwhile vital questions about Global Warming, large scale cultural, social and economic alienation, declining education, public health, etc. go scarcely addressed. If you are unaffected, you’re not paying attention.”
I think it is very sad that an obviously intelligent, young person is apparently so unhappy.
Each of the above allegations you make is open to other possibilities. Each may be true or false or partly each. The faults in the U.S. can have multiple causes and/or motives. The world has always been and will continue to be imperfect — and so will people — all people.
Posted by whattheheck on Feb 8, 2006 at 8:46 AM WTH,
You just couldn’t resist turning my argument around on me, could you. That is why I answered it before you could ask:
I know you are salivating, after reading the above, to ask me why I defend Muslim death threats. Short answer, I don’t. It’s mob talk. Irrational, incoherent and impotent. I am precisely concerned about public officials and the punditry from where ever throwing gas on the fire.
“ I don’t hear people saying “all Muslims” are threatening, do you?”
Yes, I do. Read any right-wing lit about the ‘Clash of Civilizations’, Bat Ye’or, et al. The better question is, by unilaterally seeking no other result than the non-judicial destruction of so called Muslim extremists or as the jingoists would have it Islamo-fascists, are we threatening all Muslims? Are we a threat to our own better selves?
I think it’s sad that you think it’s so very sad that I am so apparently unhappy. However it cheers me to think you think I am a young person.
Chuck you Farley. I am very much pro-American. If I didn’t love my country I would not be concerned enough to criticize. I am very much against tyranny, stupidity and cupidity. I don’t believe being pro-American means playing a childish game combining blind mans bluff and follow the leader. If that’s the game you like to play, go on. It’s a free country. For the moment.
“Each of the above allegations you make is open to other possibilities.”
Yeah, and the moon might yet be discovered to be made of green cheese. Who’s the figment of their own imagination, Mr. Apologist?
“The world has always been and will continue to be imperfect — and so will people — all people.”
I would counter that everything is perfectly what it is. “The fault, dear Brutus, lies not in the stars, but in ourselves.” We humans are naturally gifted with proprioceptive and cognitive abilities. It takes work to forge them into an engine of wise and effective action. It’s not all that difficult really. All it requires is some persistent focused effort. It is through the process of making mistakes that we learn. It does require recognizing our mistakes.
Posted by luminous beauty on Feb 8, 2006 at 10:40 AM WTH,
Pardon me if this sounds preachy.
I would like to say a word about ‘happiness’. There is ordinary mundane happiness, which is conditional and subordinate to the fleeting sensations, perceptions and thoughts that assail our temporal existence. e.g.; “This ‘makes’ me happy” or “that ‘makes’ me unhappy”. However, there is a deeper source of limitless satisfaction (called zen in Japanese) where the understanding develops that the apparent mortal fragility of change and loss is in actuality the unending renewal of boundless existence.
This simple shift in perception allows one to be critical of the unpleasant specifics of the current condition of worldly affairs without the danger of falling into cynical despair or mindless pollyannaism. This is the true meaning of moderation. I sincerely desire that form of happiness to be awakened within you.
Namaste
Posted by luminous beauty on Feb 8, 2006 at 1:18 PM WTH is lucky we believe in his existence for he is otherwise a figment of his own imagination it seems. Unless we all have in common the delusion that a Cringer in denial called WTH is inhabiting this thread.................. then maybe he is a figment of our imaginations.
Rabbit for one could not have imagined this sort of creature, not my figment.
Maybe he is a fig?
Posted by Rabbit on Feb 8, 2006 at 9:20 PM I don’t know, Rabbit--- it’s this crazy thing---I’m a little fond of WTH. The patience that Lumens has with this guy is a beautiful thing to behold, too. I feel like I am able to go back to middle school to have another stab at learning algebra, except it’s rhetoric I’m studying. Is that nutty, or what? It doesn’t make any sense.
Posted by wileywitch on Feb 8, 2006 at 10:31 PM Wiley, it is cyclical. Once Rabbit also displayed a saintly patience with WTH, beyond even that shown by Lumens now. Rabbit gave WTH the benefit of the doubt time and again. But finallly ever the Rabbit has his limits. About the third time he showed promising progress only to withdraw into total willfull ignorance at the moment of realising he is about to reach a logical, but unpalateable conclusion.
WTH has simply fallen into the category of unsalvageable and therefore expendable.
Rabbit is a mercenary soul, we must cut our losses.
We should realise that the dittoheads have the function of a fifth column in our societies, they should be rooted out and disposed of for freedom’s sake.
Posted by Rabbit on Feb 8, 2006 at 11:38 PM LB,
I remember “preachy” and that’s not preachy. I’d call it just a bit of friendly experience passed along. Thanks.
While I prefer to class myself as agnostic rather than atheist, after a comparatively long struggle I see religions as a salve, not a solution. But whatever works for someone is fine by me.
When religion — any form— gets pushy and intolerant, I react in at least an equal way. Generally I would not want to upset anyone’s illusions (my perception), but I have yet to hear any social redeeming value from a Muslim. It still could be there, but the only ones I see, hear are always either saying “Kill them in the name of Allah”, or at best not saying don’t.
Spirituality I can accept, simply for the historically recurrent idea that there must be more than just our short physical term. Also, due to testimony of inexplicable human experiences. I may have mentioned my sighting of UFO thirty some years back and finding several others with nearly the same story.
Anyway, I’m more content than I may come across. I am definitely a type A and when frustrated tend toward sarcasm and snide remarks.
I am glad you are not as sad as I had perceived. I expect it was at least partly the nature of the topics we cover. Also because we usually hold opposing views on several of them.
By the way the latest I hear is that some of what I saw on the internet may not even be what the Danes put out. Too much info — too fast — too little reliable verification. Now I guess no newspaper or magazine dares to print the actual Danish version.
Posted by whattheheck on Feb 9, 2006 at 1:34 PM WTH,
Concerning religion, spirituality and the socially redeeming side of Islam, the old saw applies, “You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make him drink.” It helps to hear something if you are actively listening for it. I seem to remember a recent conversation where I directed you a widely distributed and celebrated fatwa explicitly denouncing terrorism. All the feedback you gave me was to argue that certain Koranic verses cited were interpretable (by an idiot!) as permitting terrorism. Do you see my problem here?
Posted by luminous beauty on Feb 9, 2006 at 2:55 PM LB,
Have any Islamic “nations” spoken up with peaceful sounding comments?(not just not advocating death to us)
I have read articles quoting Islamic verses which sound a lot like some Biblical admonitions to do good and not harm, but I would like to have a proclamation from a representative Muslim group decrying the violence. Preferably a group who might moderate the radical faction.
Unfortunately, major religions all have some verses which the nut cases can recite to justify nearly anything they want.
The problem IMO is that people tend take literally writings which are meant to be allegorical or mythical.
Long ago I came to believe much of what is in the Bible may be true, but it is not true just because it is in the Bible - it is in there because someone experienced it to be so.
Do you recall the site denouncing terrorism?
Posted by whattheheck on Feb 9, 2006 at 7:04 PM WTH,
Is it too difficult then to conclude that nut cases who cannot percieve the deeper mythical meanings of scripture and use them only in a superficial manner to justify their unjustifiable beliefs and actions are not really religious in any meaningful way?
Posted by luminous beauty on Feb 9, 2006 at 8:10 PM WTH better late than never I suppose.
Informed people who read Rense or Jones for example knew several days ago that three of the cartoons purported by the Danish Imams to be from the Jyllands Posten were frauds. One was plucked from AP and had nothing to do with Muslims or Mohammed but was an entrant in a Pig squealing contest in France, he just happened to have a beard. One is of a Dog rooting someone bending over praying and another is a childish cartoon to do with peadophilia. There is no maybe about it. It has also been established that person responsible for publishing “Rose” is a Neo-con faithful as well.
It was a deliberate provocation WTH and this is not the first time pictures and cartoons depicting Mohammed have been depicted. Read this and get a few clues if you dare.
Probably a waste of time, one can lead a horse to water at least.
Posted by Rabbit on Feb 10, 2006 at 3:04 AM WTH did you just ask if any Islamic Nations are condemning the violence over the cartoons? You cannot be for real. Most of them have condemned the violence you clown. They have aksed their citizencs to be calm and to protest in orderly ways, to avoid violence and they have been doing everything in their power to protect the embassies and foreigners.
You live in a fantasy world for sure. Just because the TV only shows a few rent a crowd groups chanting and acting like goatheads. You can at least find the reports of the truth from the internet, make an effort you lazy sack of hubris.
Posted by Rabbit on Feb 10, 2006 at 3:11 AM A few clues from a five minute search to show WTH the real face of the Middle Eastern Governments’ response.
Does WTH understand that people in a protesting crowd do not represent their government in the ME any more than in the USA?
Still Lebanon but Muslim Clerics calling for peace and common sense. Surprising to you WTH?
<a href="[removed]cnnVideo(’play’,’/video/world/2006/02/05/intv.h hamid.karzai.cnn’,’2006/02/12’);">Afghan President Hamid Karzai condemned the cartoons and the violent protests. </a>
That’s a start for you WTH. Careful you don’t dent any preconceptions won’t you.
Posted by Rabbit on Feb 10, 2006 at 3:25 AM LB,
“I seem to remember a recent conversation where I directed you a widely distributed and celebrated fatwa explicitly denouncing terrorism.”
Yes, I went there before and read —
[Quran17:33] “You shall not kill any person - for GOD has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. .....”
I see this as a loophole, “...except in the course of justice...” which (as with other religions) can be taken advantage of by those who want to use religion to justify their own schemes.“Is it too difficult then to conclude that nut cases who cannot perceive the deeper mythical meanings of scripture and use them only in a superficial manner to justify their unjustifiable beliefs and actions are not really religious in any meaningful way?”
Agreed, there is no difference between a white supremacist using Christianity to lynch blacks or a suicide bomber claiming to kill in the name of justice as allowed by Islam.The problem is THEY can be convinced that they ARE being meaningfully religious.
Apparently the Muslim religion is more like Protestant Christianity in structure than the Catholic version of Christianity. What I mean is: no central hierarchy issuing general edicts to the believers as from the Vatican.
Some “Muslim nations” are speaking words of peace, while violent “demonstrations” are taking place implicitly with their consent. They (Syria, Lebanon, Jordan) are not countries where free speech reigns, nor the genuine religion (as evidenced on submission.org).Interesting to discuss, but I think what we have here is what Woodie Allen would call a “complete situation”.
Posted by whattheheck on Feb 10, 2006 at 3:14 PM “Some “Muslim nations” are speaking words of peace, while violent “demonstrations” are taking place implicitly with their consent.”
I think ‘implicit consent’ is a little bit of sinister projection, WTH. I think it would be a little fairer to say that politics is the art of compromise the whole world round. Except here in the USA, apparently.
Syria for example.
It is not in the interest of the minority Alawite elite rulers to alienate the Sunni majority by appearing submissive to Western sensibilities, nor do they want to give the US pretext for further aggressiveness. It is a sticky wicket all around. It is peculiarly familiar that neo-cons would be accusing the Syrian government of some kind of underhanded plotting to destabilize their own country. We should realize by now, that is what neo-cons do. Look at what is happening in US policy with regard to Venezuela.
Posted by luminous beauty on Feb 10, 2006 at 3:54 PM “The problem is THEY can be convinced that they ARE being meaningfully religious.”
The bigger problem is WE believing THEIR false beliefs are central to Islam. It is no different than saying Pat Robertson speaks for all Christians. Or calling those who disagree with US policy ‘anti-American’.
These guys are criminals. In international law, US law and Sharia law. Criminals always rationalize their crimes. It should not be that difficult to make the distinction. By invading an Islamic, if secular, country that had nothing to do with 911 we have ceded our own legitimacy and created a horrible fucking mess. Returning criminal acts with criminal acts.
Posted by luminous beauty on Feb 10, 2006 at 4:15 PM OK LUME, WHAT YEAR WERE YOU BORN IF YOU DON’T MIND. ? not51?
Or what Chinese horoscope if you don’t wish to masticate the meal before ninnies digest it?
Posted by Rabbit on Feb 11, 2006 at 4:03 AM The Ox, Rabbit. 1949
Stubborn and methodological, combined with a sun in Libra, adaptive in seeking harmony and balance. My workbench tends to chaos as the work’s symmetry emerges.
Posted by luminous beauty on Feb 11, 2006 at 9:00 AM Returning to the original theme of this article…
Assuming U.S intelligence was getting valuable info from the cell phones of those planning attacks here or elsewhere, now that the tactic has been exposed is there any value in contining the practice?
These guys are not stupid.
On the other hand, we have a history of telling our opponents, “Ready or not, here we come.”
LBJ announced a major air attack in time for the Vietnamese to man their AA and set up for the correct altitude.
Posted by whattheheck on Feb 13, 2006 at 9:43 AM What tactic was exposed, WTH? The only thing exposed was the avoidance of legally required FISA procedures.
The NSA is dedicated to the monitoring of international communications. It isn’t a secret.
Posted by luminous beauty on Feb 13, 2006 at 11:41 AM LB,
“What tactic was exposed?”
They will not continue to use phones which can be monitored, so there is no chance to pick up on their conversations — therefore it is no longer a usable mentod with or without specific judicial OK.
Of course they wanted to monitor international communications. SOP in a war.
Posted by whattheheck on Feb 13, 2006 at 2:06 PM WTH,
Why would they have thought phones weren’t being monitored? The NSA monitors every kind of communication 24/7, rain or shine, war or no war. It is common knowledge. As you said, they aren’t stupid.
Posted by luminous beauty on Feb 13, 2006 at 2:24 PM What an extraordinary world these people have imagined for themselves!!!
WTH, it may be helpful for you to think of the following.
Criminals, are fully aware that all phones especially cell phones are completely compromised. They are universally aware that the government can and does spy on people through these. Most are also fuklly aware that this eavesdropping is these days complete, and electronically monitored, with actual programs designed to weed out vast quantities of information. There is far more information than is Overtly being put to use, but they are able to select very much at will.
Small time crooks may not be aware of the last bit, but the bigger guys are, trust me.
The question you must ask yourself, is <b>How stupid do you think these Terrorists are exactly?
Dumber than a street level dope dealer? Well maybe they might be stupid enough to entrust major arrangements or communications to the international or local phone exchanges.
WTH, if they are at least as smart as many criminal gang leaders, they probably would execute anybody of their organisation who ever discussed anything on the phone long before now.
Like Lumens says, the only thing which was leaked was the fact that the Junta IS spying on US citizens for political reasons of the most sinister nature.
Rabbit always said you wouldn’t know if your own arse was on fire and now you have proven it, again.
You will be looking out through the barbed wire before you ever realise you have concentration camps, 600 commisioned from Halliburton, capable of holding tens of millions of people being built for just that purpose.
The question is, who will those tens of millions of people be? Surely you don’t expect it to be Arabs or Muslims, or Terrorists? They are being bombed and shot and poisoned into oblivion as we speak. They are not going to be alive to be held in any camps.
Do you think it will be the Illegal Migrants who are streaming into the country at such an unchecked rate? Who fill all the yucky, and mundane, but absolutely essential tasks for the ordered running of a society, like garbage, and cleaning and menial labour, uncomplainingly and happily for a few percent of what you would call fair wages.? These people are too important to put into camps, too cost effective to waste the valuable swrvice they provide to................whoever is left…
Are you just angling for your position on the boat WTH? Don’t you realise yet who those seats are reserved for? You really do live in a sheltered small little world.
There are more than enough of them to fill the available comfortable seats with what will be considered minimum health and safety requirements without the need to resort to taking more than a small, robust and submissive slave race with them into the future.
The rest are at this point disposable, across the board. You do belong to the rest sunshine, you won’t even et a cabin in steerage in the NWO.
Posted by Rabbit on Feb 13, 2006 at 9:40 PM Or the hold with the slaves, for you would make a lousy slave. You’d want too much variety of food, you have already been spoiled an pampered, will expect something better and will thus not easily be satisfied. They will have no use of you any more than of dissidents like the rabbit.
Posted by Rabbit on Feb 13, 2006 at 9:43 PM -
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