Jack Bauer and the Ethics of Urgency

Zizek is a genius.

A long, long time ago (I can still remember), I had a friend whose wife was into soap operas, like, big time.  She became so involved in the lives of the fictional characters that it was affecting her life, and she came near a nervous breakdown.  The doctor had a simple prescription: no more soap operas.

Dr. Zizek needs to prescribe for himself: no more soap operas.  Jack Bauer has obviously affected Dr. Zizek’s life, and the good Doctor is near a nervous breakdown.  Dr. Zizek obviously can’t distinguish a silly soap opera from geopolitical reality. 

Dr. Zizek has a history of geopolitical fuzzy thinking.  In August 2005, Dr. Zizek had an article on these pages, Give Iranian Nukes a Chance, In a mad world, the logic of MAD still works.  Now Mad Jacques Chirac is threatening Iran with nuclear weapons for following the course Dr. Zizek recommended.  Of course, Chirac is none to swift as a geopolitical thinker himself, but that is another thread. 

I assume Dr. Zizek has academic and medical credentials to justify his self-advertisement as a “philosopher and psychoanalyst”.  But his ideological Freudian slips are showing.  Dr. Zizek needs to read the Dr. Sanity website on a regular basis to bring order and usefulness to his troubled mind.

http://drsanity.blogspot.com/

Some citizens of this country are willing to tolerate government-sanctioned torture based on the idea that a plausible terrorist attack scenario involves a ticking bomb in a locker at Grand Central and all that is needed to save thousands of lives is to cut a few fingers off of an Arab immigrant. The reality of terrorism is quite different. The 9/11 attacks were several years in the making and the perpetrators had the federal government’s attention but since the Bush administration was still caught up in the antiquated belief that the nation-state presented the greatest security threat, nothing was done.

The FBI had the tools at its disposal to break the plot, as Richard Clarke pointed out in his book “Against All Enemies.” However, the FBI lacked sufficient computer power to search for more than one-word phrases in its databases, a problem that STILL has not been fixed.

Face it, torture does not work and is not justifiable in a real world setting. Take 24 for what it is, an unrealistic, sexed-up dramatization of the “war on terror.”

Point of clarification: the FBI had the names of two of the eventual hijackers acquired from conventional intelligence-gathering methods but that does NOT mean that it had sufficient computer power to search for phrases like “flight school.” The FBI did not need expanded surveillance powers, but basic office resources such as a modern computer system.

Hardly stunning that 24 is a Fox show, is it?

Next we’ll probably get a comedy based on a klutzy Mossad agent who constantly screws up his assassination assignments on Palestinians while at the same time dealing with a teenage son who wants to move back to Brooklyn and a daughter who wants to be a singer in a far-right Israeli rap band.

I can’t wait.

I would suggest that in a civilised society there is NO justification for torture.  Period.  To acknowledge that it is practiced is frightening.  Acknowledging and justifying are just the first couple of steps towards accepting and legitimising the practice.  I don’t wish to sound alarmist here, but what comes afterwards?  Gas chambers?  Ovens?  No.  I’m not being paranoid. The writ of Habeus Corpus is pretty much dead in the U.S. now.  If you aren’t sure what that implies, I suggest a Google search on “Habeus Corpus and the importance of that writ in the development of several of the worlds’ democracies.  Yes, it’s something that is being blatantly ignored in the U.S.  By the way, I may be a Canadian but that should not be interpreted as “America-basher”.  The U.S. was founded on the highest principles.  It was for a long time an inspiration to oppressed people the world over.  It happily took in many of those hungry, oppressed and downtrodden people.  It’s sad when the planets’ most powerfull country chooses to sweep those principles aside.  God bless America.  After all, more and more people the world over certainly aren’t.

Zizek referencing Apocalypse Now is for me akin to mixing chocolate and peanut butter. 

The horror, the horror!

Of course it’s a FOX show Opey.

Fox is #1 for Sports

Fox is #1 for Cable News

Fox is #1 for Entertainment

And I hear that Fox is coming out with another news network called “Fox 2”

WHO’S YOUR DADDY ??

FOX IS !!!

PS - How do you like “dem” apples

Arrrghh...apples!

I was unaware that people still used the phrase “Who’s your daddy”.  tina1, you never cease to instruct.

The New York Times full page ad calling for the Impeachment of George W. Bush is in today’s paper (January 27, 2006). This ad not only raises the profile of the impeachment campaign but will help bring many tens of thousands of new people into the impeachment movement.

The timing for the ad is excellent. In the coming days there will be Congressional hearings which will examine the impeachable offenses of Bush & Co. The call for impeachment is now coming from all quarters. There is no doubt that Bush and his advisors are well aware that the impeachment demand is quickly becoming a widespread sentiment. They are afraid, and for good reason. We want to seize the momentum and place the ad in various other newspapers and run radio spots as well. We can do it with everyone’s continued support and commitment to this campaign.

According to two recent polls the majority of Americans favor impeachment if Bush lied about the reasons for going to war in Iraq or if he engaged in illegal wiretapping. He did both. This is a people’s movement. As the ad states, “The Constitution cannot defend itself. The people must act.”

If every member and supporter of the impeachment movement made a donation, this ad could be placed in newspapers across the country. If you have contributed before, consider making another donation now. If you have never donated this is the time to take action. Please donate today by clicking here.

Let’s increase the heat!

- All of us at VoteToImpeach/ImpeachBush.org

In a FOX News-Opinion Dynamics poll released last Friday, Bush goes into this week’s speech with a 41 per cent approval rating. Fifty-one per cent of the 900 registered voters polled said they disapproved of Bush.

keep defending bush tina1.
A surprisingly tepid report on the US economy brought new perils to President George W. Bush as he prepared to unveil his 2006 agenda and struggled to help vulnerable Republicans in a congressional election year.

The meager 1.1 percent gain in US fourth-quarter gross domestic product, reported by the Commerce Department, threatened to undercut Bush’s argument his tax-cutting policies had set the stage for a thriving economy.

The GDP growth was the weakest in three years and marked an abrupt slowdown from the third quarter’s 4.1 percent pace.

“If the first quarter is weak as well, this could pose some problems for Republicans,” said Kenneth Mayer, a political scientist at the University of Wisconsin. “There’s a lot of latent unhappiness out there.”

“The Republicans, because they have unified control of the White House and Congress, are the ones the public would blame,” Mayer said.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2006/01/28/MNGAIGV0S81.DT TL
The survey found that 76 percent of respondents said Bush should disclose contacts between aides and Abramoff, while 18 percent disagreed. Two in 3 Republicans joined with 8 in 10 Democrats and political independents in favoring disclosure, according to the poll.
congress approval ratings
Approve
29 percent

Disapprove
61 percent

Congressional approval has historically been low, rarely rising above 50% in the thirty years the CBS News Poll has been asking about it. But the past year was a particularly rough one for Congress on this measure.

Last January, this Congress garnered 44 percent approval as it was sworn in, only to see that rating tumble to 29 percent by the spring of 2005 after the Terri Schiavo case, and then hit 27 percent in the first week of 2006 after the Abramoff scandal had made headlines.
http://www.maconareaonline.com/news.asp?id=13214
Hamas, sworn to Israel’s destruction, was committed to keeping its arms and resisting Israeli occupation.
oops you have to love free elections

this should give tina1 some work in trying to spin these facts.

http://www.federalbudget.com/
The US dollar is facing an imminent collapse and the global economy will suffer a “catastrohpe” when it is rejected as the currency for trade, former Malaysian prime minister Mahathir Mohamad said in remarks published Wednesday.

Mahathir, who famously ignored International Monetary Fund (IMF) advice and instead chose to peg his country’s ringgit to the US dollar during the Asian financial crisis, said a standard gold currency was now the best alternative for world trade.

The dollar was retaining some value because of fears of a global economic catastrophe if it was rejected, he told a conference of some 650 chief executives from 30 countries at a conference in Kota Kinabalu on Borneo island Tuesday, The Star newspaper reported.

“But the catastrophe will come one day because even the most powerful country in the world cannot repay loans amounting to seven trillion dollars,” Mahathir said.

The former premier, who was also finance minister, said he believed central banks worldwide were reducing their US dollar reserves and he suspected that Malaysia was also switching to other currencies. Telling reporters that he was giving his personal views, he warned, “unless (the Americans) change their president and have a more responsible president who will try to reduce the deficit, they will have serious trouble with the US currency.”

Mahathir told the CEOs it was doubtful that the sliding dollar could regain its old strength, as the administration of President George W. Bush did not consider deficits worth reducing.

The huge deficit meant that the dollar had no backing but it continued to be used internationally because some people still accepted payments in dollars.

“But there will come a time when we will switch away from the dollar and we have suggested the use of gold for international trade,” he said.

Meanwhile, if companies did not want to be “short changed” they should insist on payments in alternative currencies such as the euro or be paid in US dollars but at euro-equivalent value, he said.

Mahathir, who was widely condemned internationally for imposing capital controls and pegging the ringgit to the dollar during the Asian financial collapse 1998, has since won plaudits from economists and the IMF for his handling of the crisis.

Mahathir, who retired in October 2003 after 22 years in power, created a stir in January when he joined a chorus of calls for Malaysia to review the currency peg of 3.8 to the dollar because of the US unit’s decline in value.

fox has the best liberal cartoon shows- family guy, american dad, king of the hill, the simpsons, which shows how ridiculous the bible belt neo-cons are.
So I guess they can be fair and balanced sometimes.

There are no facts to spin .. lets see if you and your little group of angry liberals can impeach Bush. 

It was not too long ago that you angry liberals were jumping up and down saying that that Rove and Cheney ... you libs said both were going down on the CIA leak scandle.

Has Rove been indicted?  NO

Has Cheney been indicted? NO

lol ....

So far the only one indicted is Libby, and it looks like they will be dropping the charges on him.

NO Rove ...

NO Cheney ...

And you liberals said they had both of them.  Proves that you libs live in a “fantasy world”.

lol .... lmao ....

I can’t wait to see what you morons will be saying after the GOP takes more House and Senate seats.

congress

I can only wonder what kind of situation would occur in which somebody with the capability to stop a nuclear bomb from being set off would know everything they had to know about the evil plot but what could be tortured out of someone in their captivity.

Perhaps torture is being shamelessly promoted so that most Americans will believe that they understand that torture is necessary and that it can be utilized to save millions of lives, though there hasn’t been any “actionable” intelligence gained from three years of torture at Abu Graib and Gitmo.

Whether or not torture is effective, is not as important as whether or not it can be justified. Once it is justified, it is always justified. All we need is a possibility. What better place to find that possibility than television.

And to really drive the point home (for the truly reality-challenged) we can pretend like we’d torture ourselves if we thought it would save millions.  And---no hard feelings, really---I’ll just take a couple of aspirin and a few Klonipin, and then I won’t have nightmares for the rest of my life. It’s a wonder this stuff works, really--- it doesn’t even upset me that much.

Torture is being promoted in order to minimize the emotional and political impact of an illegal occupation of Iraq.The overwhelming majority of troops in Iraq are not torturing anyone, aside from the daily indignities that military occupations generally impose upon an occupied people.  But those indignities, coupled with the collateral damage derived from attacking the people who resist American occupation, appear to be less traumatic than they actually are when compared against the relatively minor threat of torture.

I don’t mean to imply that Iraqis are not being tortured.  Negroponte after all is ambassador to Iraq.  And Negroponte has built his career around the principle of outsourcing torture to the indigenous representatives of American occupation, in this case the Iraqi Ministry of the Interior.

All of which serves to increase the contrast between the noble American “liberators” of Iraq and their “savage, uncivilized” Iraqi confederates who, with their equally savage and uncivilized antagonists, require an extended American occupation of Iraq, in order to “make the Iraqis safe for democracy”.

Oh yeah, MM. I knew what was coming when I heard the name Negroponte---groups of people found dead with a bullet in the back of their heads, and their hands cuffed behind their backs.

Sick bastard! (Negroponte) These mass murderers are loyal to their methodologies. So predictable, once you understand sociopathy.

I’m glad you brought up the citizens. Collective punishment and bombing homes is a form of “torture”, I think. It’s an effort to break people down and make them pliable. Maybe oppression is a better term. It’s disgusting that something as brutal and mentally apish as carpet bombing cities is accepted as something clinical and clean.

You can say “We’re bombing their cities! to most fellow Americans, and not get a blink. What happened to us?

USA is #1, we rule the World, we are the leaders.

If you hate America, then why do you live here? 

If America is such a terrible place then why is the rest of world trying to get in?

Broomstick, Bugs Bunny and Punk Boy should just move to Canada.  Oh wait, now Canada is Conservative.  Maybe you three queers should just move to Venezuela with your Oil Boy since he hates America and is also a queer.

Wait a sec, wileywitch. I in NO WAY support domestic spying. I was implicitly describing that the ultimate goal of domestic spying is to stifle and thwart dissenting voices and causes. I was simply proclaiming that I would not be frightened into silence and submission by this administration. So, instead of acquiescing to the expanding security-state, I am giving it the finger and stating my commitment to democracy and privacy.

Thank you, Liberal.

MM -

They say ignorance is bliss.  Is that why you are so happy all the time?

... an illegal occupation of Iraq.

Please tell us what law has been violated.

And John Negroponte has not been ambassador to Iraq for nearly a year.

Scorp, the U.S. violated the U.N. Charter by launching an aggressive war without authorization by the Security Council.

Is MM happy all the time?

hawk admits invasion illegal

As the token Canadian here, I’d like to state clearly that I am not trying to get into the U.S.  Indeed I’ve never wanted to move to the U.S.  That’s not to say that I’ve never visited your country.  I have.  I should state that for the most part I even like Americans.  You guys are’nt hugely different from us.  Your standard of living is about the same as ours.  You espouse many of the same ideals.  My sense is that a greater percentage of your population will buy whatever your government sells you.  To the extent that I get the impression that many Americans don’t see the slow erosion of their freedoms.  Have some of the more “conservative” elements in your society not read George Orwells’ 1984?  Or… and here’s a truly frightening prospect… have they only read it as an instruction manual on how they would like society to function?

It’s funny you mention that <b>confuzed canuck</i>. I’ve been saying for some time that it is as if the neocon warhawks have read all the comic books and satires, and instead of heeding the warning therein, concluded that the evil doers had great ideas, they just wore the wrong capes.

Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, and Cheney are Dr. Strangeloves from way back. Rumsfeld especially has held tight to the fantasy of winning a nuclear war.

Megalomania gone mainstream is pretty scary stuff.

Well I’ve been wondering about Shrub (my tongue-in-cheek name for Bush junior) for a while now.  I am starting to think that he honestly thinks he is on a mission from God.  Correct me if I sound out to lunch on this one, but I’m thinking that he perhaps really believes that these are the “end times” and that armaggedon is approaching fast.  In which case he is the president for the job ordained by God.  In his mind at least.  That could explain his unwillingness to sign onto the Kyoto accord.  Why worry about the environment if the end of the world is rapidly appoaching?  Cheney I think is a different kettle of fish.  He I suspect, knows exactly what he is doing.  Imagine if he were the president.  The more cynical part of me regrets never having acquired any shares of Halliburton a few years back.

The US unilaterally invaded and occupied Iraq without the approval of the UN, which it sought to obtain from the Security Council, as Liberal notes.  It sought authorization to bolster its claims of legality.  It received no authorization.  Therefore, the invasion and subsequent occupation of Iraq is illegal.

Negroponte is currently the Director of National Intelligence.  Zalmay Khalizdad succeeded him to the Iraqi ambassadorship.  Therefore, Negroponte is no longer ambassador to Iraq.  What’s you point?

Finally, the Canadian Conservative Party is more liberal than the American Democratic Party.  In fact, all of the major political parties in Canada - the Liberals, the Conservatives, the New Democrats and the Parti Quebecois - are more liberal than all of the American political parties.  Don’t get your hopes up, Tweety.  Incidentally, I’m flattered that you would attempt to imitate the cartoon caricatures attributed to yourself and your neocon compatriots.  I appreciate the compliment.

Confused Canuck, I wonder about that ordained by God farce. I’m thinking “not”. He doesn’t care, because he doesn’t care, is my guess. I almost feel sorry for him. I think he believed that he would be recognized as a great president and everyone would love him, and all he had to do was smile for the camera and prang out some slogans.

And PR firms write the slogans.

He is usually either on vacation or campaigning for the GOP. WHY IS IT ACCEPTABLE FOR AN ACTING PRESIDENT TO CAMPAIGN FOR A PARTY? Or going to political conventions with his 2000+ entourage.

And PR firms write the news stories.

People in the EPA have said out loud that we don’t have to worry about a “future”. Don’t have links to that effect, I’ve been reading every day for many years and I don’t have bureacratic tendencies. But one of them said that we can easily lose ten thousand species and it won’t effect us. A lot of conscientious and experienced people have left government offices in droves because the appointed people are almost all like Michael Brown in charge of FEMA--they are thoroughly unqualified for their posts and there are very real consequences as a result of that ignorance.

And corporations write the policy.

Our laws are written by corporate hacks. I think it really is that simple. Corporations have no conscience.

And corporations write legislation.

I read recently that Cheney was trailing cholera in the polls. He really is a sinister little spider. Bush makes it possible for Cheney’s political pets to be promoted. He probably doesn’t believe that his pets are doing miserably. Everything is cherry in Iraq, right. 

Halliburton is doing fine.

You are correct.  Canadian political parties are on the whole more liberal than American political parties.  Indeed, our Conservative party might even be considered quite liberal, however, it should be noted that the modern day Conservative party in Canada has many members of what was once known as the Reform party.  Reformers are actually fairly right-wing.  Many Canucks feel that they are only one short step away from being like American Neo-cons.  Stephen Harper (the leader of the Conservatives here) comes from that background.  He would like to introduce minimum penalties for things like drug possession.  Indeed, he strongly opposes the decriminalization of marijuana.  When asked recently, how he would deal with the increased number of prisoners should that happen, his response was a glib “build more prisons”.  What percentage of the U.S. population (especially the black male portion of it) has spent time in prison for simple possession of narcotics?  I’ve read that it’s rather astonishingly high.  Does this improve American society?  In some cultural settings (Japan being a prime example) problems with drug abuse are considered the fault of the society in which the individual was moulded.  Not of the individual himself.  Note that Japan has a much lower incidence of crime and incarceration than the U.S.  On a closing note, I understand that there is only one nation in the western hemisphere that tops the U.S. in terms of per capita incarceration of it’s citizens.  That nation is Cuba.  Now this should not be construed as a plug for decriminalization of narcotics.  The question I’m attempting to raise is simply this:  Has the Neo-con agenda improved American society?  If so, how?  As a Canadian, I still see your rights and freedoms being steadily eroded.  I see more and more of your citizens being marginalized through a process of criminalizing them.  Am I missing something here?  Or am I just an ignorant Canuck who is missing some salient facts?

<a href="http://www.sentencingproject.org/pdfs/1044.pdf">prison stats<>

724 out of 100,000 U.S. We won!

564 out of 100,000 Russia

St. Kitts and Nevis--- is third. It’s a Carribean country I never heard of until now.

487 per 100, 000 for cuba---way below our rate, which is what I had thought.

http://www.sentencingproject.org/pdfs/mauer-icpa.pdf

This prison population translates to a rate of incarceration of 715 per 100,000, placing the United States comfortably in the world lead in this regard, with a rate 5-8 times that of most other industrialized nations. While the U.S. has a higher rate of violent crime than many comparable nations, most scholars in the field attribute the dramatic increase in the use of prison almost entirely to changes in policy, and not crime rates. That is, policymakers at all levels of government have enacted laws and procedures designed to send more people to prison and to keep them in prison for longer periods of time. For the period 1980-1996, for
example, a time when the inmate population tripled, 88% of this rise was a result of changes in sentencing policy, and just 12% due to changes in crime.

Specifically, this has led to the expansion of mandatory sentencing policies, applied primarily to drug offenses, which require judges to sentence offenders to fixed terms in prison regardless of individual circumstances. In addition, “three strikes and you’re out” policies have been adopted in half the states. These laws require a life sentence upon
conviction of a specified third felony offense. The most extreme form of this policy is in the state of California, including such cases as a man convicted of a third offense for stealing $153 worth of videotapes and sentenced to 50 years to Life in prison. Many states have also enacted restrictions on parole release, earned good time, and other
policies which increase time served in prison.

prison

Good God!  It’s worse than I thought.  I was being too kind.  I honestly thought that Cuba beat the U.S. on this one.  Thanks for the correction.  I now know better.  I followed the link you provided and noted Japans’ rate with a great deal of interest.  I honestly don’t know what more to add to this.  The numbers speak for themselves.  Do the majority of Americans realize what these numbers mean to American society?  The implications are almost too frightening to grasp.

In only six years, from 1998-2004, violent gun crime rates 30 percent in the state of Florida.

Jeb Bush proposed the toughest gun-crime law in the nation: 10-20-LIFE

The 1999 Florida Legislature passed sweeping legislation that provides for enhanced minimum mandatory prison terms for offenders who commit crimes with guns.

Mandates a minimum 10 year prison term for certain felonies, or attempted felonies in which the offender possesses a firearm or destructive device

Mandates a minimum 20 year prison term when the firearm is discharged

Mandates a minimum 25 years to LIFE if someone is injured or killed

Mandates a minimum 3 year prison term for possession of a firearm by a felon

During the 10-20-LIFE era, armed criminals robbed a total of 10,567 fewer people and killed a total 380 fewer than they would have if these crime numbers had remained at 1998 levels. These crime decreases occurred even as Florida’s population increased over 2.5 million (16.8 percent) between 1998 and 2004. Punishing criminals who use guns is making our state safer.

www.dc.state.fl.us/oth/10-20-life/index.html

PS - And you say locking up criminals doesn’t work ???

lol ... lmao ...

HELLO ... McFLY ...  LOOK AT THE FACTS !!!

But, but, were the freest nation in the world?!

The great myth about Amerika as this shining beacon of freedom lies in its criminal justice policy. Highest incarceration rate in the world, not just among the developed nations. 42nd in infant mortality rate.

Contrast Amerika with Finland, which has rehabilitation at the core of its criminal justice policy. Prisoners, even murderes, are sent to “camps” that have no walls or cells where they learn the error of their ways and focus on becoming productive citizens once they re-enter society. Finland does not have a violent crime rate higher than that in the U.S. Even Canada has a rehabilitative component to its prison system, and it seems to work. Prisoners come out of jail reformed, ready to enter society as a productive citizen.

Amerika, on the other hand, focuses solely on punishment, meaning men and women reentering society after serving time are at a distinct competitive disadvantage when it comes to having a normal, functioning life. Most of them end back up in jail. Some country, eh?

Tinytina, Florida has the most relaxed gun ownership and use laws in the country. In FLA, not only are you allowed to carry a concealed weapon in public, but you can shoot and kill someone with your gun if you think your person is in jeopardy arbitrarily! I wouldn’t touch that state with a ten foot pole.

Tina1, you also negelct to mention whether or not you believe it would be better to invest some money into reforming these criminals in your state so they can be better citizens and contribute to the economy. Is money better spent on punishment, rehabilitation, or both? Finland and Canada have shown that varying degrees of rehabilitation in a criminal justice system does not result in higher crime rates. In fact, it seems that the less incarceration a society has, the less violent it is.

Hey broomstick,

You need to give it up, the “War was Illegal” talking point is outdated.  It’s really old news and nobody is paying attention to that one anymore.  America is way past that liberal talking point.

Do you have anything new?

What about any ideas?  Instead of throwing 3, 4 or 5 year old mudballs ... how about an idea?  Did I stump you on that one? 

PS - Please tell me that you are some Dimwhits campain manager ... please ... that’s a great job for you.

lol ....

As a signatory to the U.N. Charter, the U.S. is bound unequivocally to follow its specifications. The U.S. did not receive Security Council Authorization for the use of force against Iraq. Whether or not the Bush administration thought the country to be in danger is irrelevant. That matter is for the Security Council to decide. By invading Iraq without U.N. approval. the U.S. violated the charter and international law. Such laws are just as important as any passed by Congress. The Constitution calls treaties the supreme law of the land.

CC -

Of course Americans realize what these numbers mean: locked up felons do not commit crimes.  Violent crime statistics for 2004 show the lowest rates in history, down by 60% since 1994.

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/viort.htm

A couple of years ago, CSM had a long article on the falling crime rate, and investigated all demograhic and social factors except incarceration rate.  CSM confessed they had no clue why crime rates were down, but the reason is both obvious and simple.

You might argue why there are so many felons (mommy party permissiveness), but you can’t argue with the excellent results from keeping criminals in jail. 

You might also note that Cuba is a prison, and everyone but the Marxist goons in charge is a prisoner.  Why do you think so many Cubans risk life and limb to escape?  About one-tenth of the population of Cuba now lives in the USA, and many died on the way, trying to escape Castro and communism.

That last post of tina1’s was just beyond me.  I really have no clue as to how it related to the posts that preceeded it.  It’s all too easy to slag someone.  Any kid can do that, but where is the logical discourse?  I’m concluding that tina1 sees her main purpose here as playing devil’s advocate.  No-ones mind can be so firmly set as to allow no other opinion to intrude upon it.  Laughing out loud does’nt really add to a discussion either.  Especially when the LOL is obviously not a “laughing with” but a “laughing at”.  I don’t like knocking the U.S. as such.  Again, I maintain that it was founded on the highest possible principles.  Anyone, and any nation can be distracted by its’ circumstances or by its’ leaders.  Hitlers’ Germany is a good example of that.  Is Germany such a deplorable place now?  Of course not.  Sadly, I see the U.S. on that slippery slope towards a totalitarian and eventually fascist state.  Calcified thought processes don’t assist in avoiding that slope.  On another comment:  Why should people who dislike what their country is doing be branded as “haters” of their country?  Why should they be told that they should leave?  A true patriot (in my twisted Canuck way of thinking) is an individual who wishes to improve the country they live in.  Remember that old saying?  The one that goes: “America- Love it or leave it!” Just because a person does’nt love what their country is doing, does that automatically mean that they don’t love their country?  Does a parent who does’nt like something their child has done automatically start to hate their child?  What kind of a parent is that?  What kind of fellow citizen tells you to leave because you don’t agree with some of your countries’ policies?  Democracy is the voice of all citizens speaking out together.

Hey liberal,

I have a great idea.  Since you are so hip on rehabilitating these inmates in America ... why don’t spend some time behind bars working these inmates.

Or when they get out .. have a few spend a month or so at your house.  They could do a little babysitting ... maybe run your children around on errands.

That sounds like a great idea.  lol ... lmao ...

Confused Canuck, the more confused you get, the more you understand what’s going on. It appears that the red right is so obsessed with violence, divorce, etc. because those are serious problems in predominately red society. Here’s an excerpt from an article. The link is at the bottom. Too busy to shrink and link. Sorry. 

Conservative Christians are forever telling us that their religion is the key to a cohesive and peaceful society, and that all hell began to break loose in American culture when we “took God out of the schools” (itself a myth). So at the very least one would think that the “thou shalt not kill” commandment would be more likely to be followed in those God-worshipping red states, right? Wrong. In fact, FBI statistics show that southern states have the highest murder rates, despite the fact that our largest cities are in blue states (New York, LA, Chicago). The top 5 highest murder rates per 100,000 in America? Louisiana (17.5), Mississippi (11.1), Alabama (10.4), Tennessee (9.5) and South Carolina (9.0). So much for that notion that small town, rural American is the Real America, not those big city hedonists who flaunt decency.

Certainly we should find that the red states, with their fervent belief in the importance of “family values”, would have families that stay together far more than those God-hating pagans in the big city blue states, right? Well, let’s check the state-by-state divorce statistics. And once again, the opposite of what we expect. The lowest rate of divorce in the nation? That would be none other than that haven of liberal political correctness, and beacon of gay marriage to the world, Massachusetts. Must just be an anomoly, right? Well, not exactly. In fact, 9 of the 10 lowest divorce rates are in blue states, especially in the Northeast, allegedly the hotbed of pagan immorality. And the 10 highest divorce rates in the nation, with averages nearly 3 times higher than the 10 lowest? 8 of them are red states. And let’s not forget that these are led primarily by what is referred to as the Bible Belt. As a recent National Center for Policy Analysis noted, “Nearly half of all marriages break up, but the divorce rates in these southern states are roughly 50 percent above the national average.” Boy, I’m sure glad we’ve got these people to lecture us on family values, but one wonders how they get the time in between breaking up their own families!

http://www.stcynic.com/blog/archives/2004/11/red_stateblue_s_1.php

to confused canuck:

If you think we (USA) are headed to a “fascist state” ... then you are really CRAZY.  wow…

You sound like those Alex Jones nuts....

Good Luck ... you will need it.

Thanks tina1.  I’ll take that as a compliment.  I seem to recall a quote many years back linking insanity to creativity.  Perhaps even the ability to think outside of the box.  I’m quite sure that the citizens of countries that have had their experiences with fascism would have reacted much as you have.  With disbelief, and an attack on the character of those who made the observation in the first place.  I realize that it may be difficult for you to react with anything but a verbal swipe, however, I like to think that you’re just playing devils’ advocate you wiley minx you…

<i>"I have a great idea.  Since you are so hip on rehabilitating these inmates in America ... why don’t [you] spend some time behind bars working [with] these inmates[?]”

That is a great idea, tiny one.  You could contact:
Friends Outside .  A great organization.  If you can’t volunteer, maybe you could contribute.

I’m reminded of the line in “Walk The Line” where the warden of Folsom asks J. Cash not to sing any songs that remind them they are in prison.  “What, you think they forgot?”

MM, Liberal -

The UN approved and sponsored Gulf I in 1990-1991, removing Saddam from his illegal occupation of Kuwait.  Gulf I ended in an Armistice, conditional on Saddam’s acceptance of three conditions: no more aggressive war, no more suppression and mistreatment of Iraqi civilians, no more WMD.  The UN passed seventeen resolutions in a twelve-year period, trying to get Saddam to abide by the terms of the Armistice.  Saddam repeatedly violated those terms, and at any point the UN could have marched on Iraq to enforce the Armistice.  Saddam was careful to avoid violations of the Armistice until UN ground forces had substantially departed the Gulf area.

The UN, primarily USA, Britain, and (for a while) France enforced the sanctions with air power, and Saddam aggressively fired on the UN aircraft.  At this point, not only was Saddam in violation of the Armistice, but he was practicing aggression against the UN.  Not only were renewed hostilities against Saddam justified under the UN rules, Saddam tried to assassinate 41, an act of war which the USA could defend against under the UN Charter.

While it is true that deVillepin lied to Powell about the eighteenth resolution, that in no way negated the first seventeen resolutions, the last of which, 1441, threatened serious consequences for Saddam if he did not abide by the Armistice he had agreed to.  Serious consequences are what he got. 

The most interesting point was France’s dishonesty.  The UN held together unanimously for twelve years on the noble principles of the UN, at which point France, led by Germany and followed by Russia, China, and several other temporary UNSC members, unilaterally and collectively, did an about face and turned against the positions which they had created, observed, and enforced for all that time.  It was only subsequently that we learned that France, Russia, and China had received millions of bribes and extortion money from Saddam under the UN’s Oil-for-Food program.  Note that, for his efforts, Schroeder was voted out of office in Germany, while Howard, Blair, and Bush were re-elected.  And Chirac is the lamest of lame ducks, his own people having voted down the European Constitution.

Nor did the USA “act unilaterally”, as was charged at the time, in the matter of Iraq.  Thirty UN members, acting as the Coalition, agreed to enforce the UN rules.  Only a few guilty parties chose to change directions and they were the ones who abandoned the UN’s carefully crafted position.

None of which agrees with your leftist ideology, and when there is a discrepancy between the facts and your ideology, your ideology prevails.  But that does not win elections, because everyone can see that leftists have shit for brains, and who would vote for somebody like that?.

Woah Scorp. Schroeder’s Iraq policy had NOTHING to do with his defeat. Germans are still widely opposed to the war. Same with Britain. People there despise the war in Iraq so much that they voted George Galloway back into parliament and gave an-anti war candidate with NO prior politcal experience 10% of the popular vote in 2005. The Labor Party lost 100 seats in parliament, but since the Tories also supported the war, people were left with little choice.

Over 50% of the “bribes” and “kickbacks” under the Oil-for-Food “scandal” went to AMERICAN companies, scorp. Who has the $hit for brains now buddy?

Chirac is facing domestic opposition to his right-wing economic policies, and rightly so. The people in France said Non! to the Constitution because of its laissez-faire pro corporate trade policies. The left in France was entirely opposed to the Constitution and thus were victorious in the referendum. The left in France gained strength.

The U.S. and U.K. had veto authority over EVERY conract under the Oil-for-Food Program, so they are just as much at fault for the scandal as the implicated parties. The U.S. has squandered FAR more money in the “reconstruction” effort of Iraq than ever was misused in the U.N. scandal.

Resolution 1441 never said anything about force. It said that if Iraq did not fully comply with U.N. disarmament which was incredibly exhaustive and detailed that the matter would be referred to the Security Counil for further discussion. The weapons inspectors never found any reconstituted weapons programs when they returned and said as much. Turns out that France and Russia were dead-on about WMDs while the U.S. presented patently false and misleading information about Iraq before the U.N.

The U.S. certainly did not seem to mind when Iraq invaded Kuwait. In fact the Bush I administration did an abrupt about face with respect to its stance on the crisis. Then we began to hear the fake stories of babies being thrown out of their incubators and had the whole charrade where the daughter of the Kuwaiti ambassador to the U.S. lied to Congress by pretending she was an innocent Kuwaiti girl who had witnessed crimes firsthand by Iraq.

Also, the U.S. exceeded it U.N. mandate by bombing civilian infrastuecture such as water treatment plants and power plants that sent Iraq back to the stone-age.

Finally, those “no-fly-zones” had no U.N. mandate and were thus illegal.

I would not entrust an American felon with my family tina1, because under the U.S. criminal justice system, these men and women leave no better than they came in. I am not advocating for the release of prisoners (no idea where you got that crazy idea) just a fundamental shift in the way we as a society treat prisoners and the entire criminal justice system. The current set-up is deeply flawed and detrimental to society.

In the year 2000 Florida had an estimated population of 15,982,378 which ranked the state 4th in population. For that year the State of Florida had a total Crime Index of 5,694.7 reported incidents per 100,000 people. This ranked the state as having the 2nd highest total Crime Index. For Violent Crime Florida had a reported incident rate of 812.0 per 100,000 people. This ranked the state as having the 1st highest occurrence for Violent Crime among the states. For crimes against Property, the state had a reported incident rate of 4,882.7 per 100,000 people, which ranked as the state 3rd highest. Also in the year 2000 Florida had 5.6 Murders per 100,000 people, ranking the state as having the 21st highest rate for Murder. Florida’s 44.2 reported Forced Rapes per 100,000 people, ranked the state 7th highest. For Robbery, per 100,000 people, Florida’s rate was 199.0 which ranked the state as having the 5th highest for Robbery. The state also had 563.2 Aggravated Assaults for every 100,000 people, which indexed the state as having the 2nd highest position for this crime among the states. For every 100,000 people there were 1,081.8 Burglaries, which ranks Florida as having the 3rd highest standing among the states. Larceny - Theft were reported 3,242.9 times per hundred thousand people in Florida which standing is the 5th highest among the states. Vehicle Theft occurred 558.0 times per 100,000 people, which fixed the state as having the 5th highest for vehicle theft among the states.

http://www.disastercenter.com/crime/flcrime.htm

Hey Liberal,

France is great place to live ... if you like unemployment around 10%.  And that has been their average unemployment rate over the past 15 years. 

You should move to France.

Here is great article about their economy under LIBERAL RULE.

http://www.theage.com.au/news/business/france-pays-price-of-liberal-jobless-bene efits/2005/08/30/1125302569771.html

France pays price of liberal jobless benefits

Another example of why “LIBERALISM is a MENTAL DISORDER”

lol ... lmao ....

Hey Major Major,

Your stats about Florida crime in 2000 is why Jeb Bush pushed for stronger sentences when he campained in 1998.

In 1999 they became law and in 5 years violent gun crime has dropped 30% in Florida. 

Also, now inmates in Florida must serve at least 85% of their sentence before they can be paroled. 

FLORIDA DEPT OF CORRECTIONS
www.dc.state.fl.us

S. Fla. OVERALL CRIME RATE DROPS
http://www.bizjournals.com/southflorida/stories/2003/04/14/daily51.html

STATE CRIME RATE HITS 34-YEAR LOW
http://www.sptimes.com/2005/06/24/State/State_crime_rate_hits.shtml

PASCO COUNTY’S CRIME RATE DROPS TO 8-year LOW
http://www.sptimes.com/2004/05/12/Pasco/County_s_crime_rate_d.shtml

ORMOND BEACH ANNUAL CRIME RATE DROPS BY 12 PERCENT
http://ormondbeach.org/news/newsletters/CommUp-web8-05.pdf

FLORIDA CRIME TREND 1996-2003
Burglaries are down in both number (-22.1%) and rate (-34.3%), showing a steady decline since the beginning of the study period.

Larcenies are down in number (-16.5%) with the trend for the number of offenses showing a steep decline. The rate per 100,000 is down sharply (-29.5%), as is the trend.

Motor vehicle theft since 1996 has dropped by 21.4 percent in number and 33.7 percent in rate. The trends for both the number and the rate are sharply negative over the period, mirroring similar movement for all Florida Index property offenses.

Total index crime has declined, both in number (-18.3%) and rate (-31.1%) since 1996. There were almost 200,000 fewer index crimes in 2003 than in 1996; a reduction that represents one less crime for every six persons in the State.

Total violent crime (murder, forcible sex offenses, robbery, and aggravated assault) is also down in both number (-17.9%) and rate (-30.7%) for the eight-year period. The trend lines for both number and rate are also negative.

http://www.fdle.state.fl.us/FSAC/Publications/SACNotes/crime_trends96_03/crime_t trends96-03.asp

Hey tina1, Amerika is a great place to live if you like:

-Five consecutive years of stagnant wages. For the first time on record, household income has decreased five years in a row, down by nearly $2,000 since 1999.  And that’s despite relatively low unemployment and workers putting in more hours at the job.

-Health care costs are soaring at double-digit rates. Every year, companies drop health care plans or raise costs for employees. Four million fewer people have health care at work than in 2000.

-Household debt has reached record heights. Last year, for the first time since 1933, American families spent more on average than they earned.  Nationally personal outlays exceeded disposable income by some $20 billion. U.S. household indebtedness has risen by more than 35 percent in the last four years.

-Bush’s top-end tax cuts and opposition to unions and a living wage has contributed to the worst inequality since the Gilded Age.  One half of 1 percent of Americans—the handful of multimillionaires—made more money from the sale of stocks last year than the rest of the country combined.  CEO salaries are now 431 times that of the average worker.  And at the bottom, the 22 million households that make up the lowest 20 percent of wage earners on average see less than $14,000 a year.  In real terms, the poorest Americans make only $600 more today than in 1972.

Just more proof that CONSERVATISM is a mental disorder!

Crime rates across the board have been dropping for the last forty years, Tweety.  And they’ve risen periodically only after the Republicans have screwed up the economy with tax cuts and subsidies to the rich and “free enterprise” for the rest of us.  The only people complaining about rising crime rates are the politicians who need a “safe” issue to scare a paranoid population into voting for them, and the media who need to generate high advertising rates through their constant production of pornographic violence.  And, of course, neocon numbskulls like you who eat it all up.

Conservatism is a sociaql disease.

Liberal,

If you remove durable goods, which the poor do not buy anyhow, from the dollar adjustment figures, the poor are actually worse off than in 1972.

Another note:

If one corrects for the fact that the US unemployment figures do not take into account structural unemployment and other unique statistical features that tend to minimize unemployment, France has lower unemployment than the US.

Loony Booty -

If you remove durable goods, which the poor do not buy anyhow, from the dollar adjustment figures, the poor are actually worse off than in 1972.

I once thougt that people like you were dishonest.  I now realize that you are in fact insane, and nothing will do for it.  But in order to help you keep from looking stupid, as well as being insane, please consider the following

The following are facts about persons defined as “poor” by the Census Bureau, taken from various government reports:

* Forty-six percent of all poor households actually own their own homes.

* The average home owned by persons classified as poor by the Census Bureau is a three-bedroom house with one-and-a-half baths, a garage, and a porch or patio.

* Seventy-six percent of poor households have air conditioning. By contrast, 30 years ago, only 36 percent of the entire U.S. population enjoyed air conditioning.

* Only 6 percent of poor households are overcrowded. More than two-thirds have more than two rooms per person.
The average poor American has more living space than the average individual living in Paris, London, Vienna, Athens, and other cities throughout Europe. (These comparisons are to the average citizens in foreign countries, not to those classified as poor.)

* Nearly three-quarters of poor households own a car; 30 percent own two or more cars.

* Ninety-seven percent of poor households have a color television; over half own two or more color televisions.

* Seventy-eight percent have a VCR or DVD player; 62 percent have cable or satellite TV reception.

* Seventy-three percent own microwave ovens, more than half have a stereo, and a third have an automatic dishwasher.

http://www.heritage.org/Research/Welfare/bg1713.cfm

And this:

If one corrects for the fact that the US unemployment figures do not take into account structural unemployment and other unique statistical features that tend to minimize unemployment, France has lower unemployment than the US.

Do you have any evidence whatsoever to justify this absurd statement?

Since the 1970s, America has created some 57 million new jobs, compared to just 4 million in Europe (with most of those in government).

(http://www.taemag.com/issues/articleid.18720/article_detail l.asp)

Scorp, is it not also true that Amerika has seen its population increase steadily whilst Europe’s has remained stagnant? The collpase of the Soviet Union and the transition period that it necessitated created poor economic conditions anathema to job creation. Western Europe has done well overall, as a result of (not in spite of) its compassionate and necessary social welfare programs.

So what Scorp? Have you seen how rich people live? Color TVs have been around for over thirty years, the same with microwaves, and stereos, and dishwashers. It is no feat to proclaim possession of those things.

The comparison of living quarters with Europe is misleading because people over there CHOOSE to live in smaller homes. You don’t see the sprawling gated communities and suburbian subdivisions in Europe. The population is much more dense, requiring more cramped living quarters. That does NOT mean that people in Europe are any worse off than those in the U.S.

I own a 12 year old color TV.  It cost $0
‘87 hatchback sedan. $800 (bought 6 years ago)
Air conditioner. $10
3 computers. $0
Microwave $0
Washing machine $0 (3rd in a year.  $20 to dispose of old ones)

The US is drowning in consumer goods.  If you are willing to put up with beat up old crappy shit, are reasonably handy and able to improvise, you can have it all for practically nothing.  Huzzah!

US U6 unemployment .1 including discouraged workers and under-employed is statistically comparable to French unemployment at %9.7

French don’t include uniformed military in workforce, further distorting statistics in US favor.

Liberal -

Scorp, is it not also true that Amerika has seen its population increase steadily whilst Europe’s has remained stagnant?

Let me tell you about this remarkable internet resource called “Google”.  You can learn the darnedest things by looking up information in Google, and it is quite easy to use.  For example, in two minutes I was able to find population graphs on France, Germany, the Netherlands, Belgium, and Italy.  All of them show a constant if irregular population growth since the 1970s, confirming my knowledge of demographics.  Now it is true that the native populations of these countries are reproducing below the replacement rate, but immigrants more than make up the difference.  So, no, the populations of these countries are not stagnant, they are growing. 

http://www.historycentral.com/NationbyNation/Netherland/Population.html

What is stagnant in the European countries is unemployment and economic productivity.  Old Europe is in a fifteen-year employment slump.  In year 2000, the Europeans were alarmed that their productivity was so far behind the USA and Asia.  The Europes adopted the Lisbon Accords in 2000, in which they promised to match the USA in productivity in ten years time.  Six years on, the Europes have made zero progress toward their goal. 

The comparison of living quarters with Europe is misleading because people over there CHOOSE to live in smaller homes.

Per cap GDP in France is 71% of per cap GDP in the USA.  So, I suppose it is fair to say that Frenchman “CHOOSE” to live in smaller homes.  That is also why they CHOOSE to drive smaller cars, undoubtedly.

Lagomorph will be waking up soon.  Since the discussion has turned to economics, you can bet your ass he will come on with some incredibly dumb comments on economic matters he understands nothing about.  Just like Loony Booty.

The population in Europe has stagnated while America’s continues steadily, mainly from immigration.

Health care costs account for 15% of American GDP. The French do not pay that kind of money in the aggregate for health care. That fact alone closes the gap in per capita GDP extensively. The fact that GDP in France is lower does not mean that people are better off in the U.S. France has a lower infant mortality rate and a higher life expectancy than the United States.

To equate economic status with the square footage of one’s home is stupid scorp.

Scorp, each year the U.N. produces what it calls the Human Development Index. In 2005, the U.S. ranked 1oth with a score of .944, while France was ranked 16th with a score of .938. However, the U.S. was still behind quasi-socialistic European countries such as Belgium (.945), Switzerland (.947), Luxembourg (.949), Sweden (.949), Iceland (.956), and Norway (.963). Maybe France is not the best western European example to compare to the U.S. There are plenty of other industrialized, liberal European countires that consistently outperform the U.S. when it comes to overall quality life, which is not measured myopically by G.D.P. per capita.

* The Economist: Quality-of-life index
* Vanderford-Riley well being schedule
* Physical quality-of-life index
* UN Human Development Index
* Genuine Progress Indicator
* Gross National Happiness

In wikipedia there are definitions of these indices. I don’t think most economists take the GDP that seriously as a quality of life indicator. It helps to calculate the trade deficit, but as far as the quality of life goes, the GDP goes up whether the money made is spread equally among the workers, or the workers are living on slave wages, paying too much for cheap soap at the company store, and eating watery gruel.

I guess divergence is a common problem in these threads, as is the constant missinterpretation of Zizek’s comments...but than again “missing the point” does in a way render his comments true…

This brings up a crucial question: What does this all-pervasive sense of urgency mean ethically? The pressure of events is so overbearing, the stakes are so high, that they necessitate a suspension of ordinary ethical concerns. After all, displaying moral qualms when the lives of millions are at stake plays into the hands of the enemy.

Is this the point that you think everyone is missing x2dn?

Or what? Others veering off topic does not prevent you from posting “the point” that you think was missed.

I think it was acknowledged well enough. How long do you expect people to talk about this, and this alone? It’s a very short article, or a longish op-ed, not the thick stuff of grand debate.

I think it’s safe to say that most everyone on this thread is literate. If I were an author, I would not want someone writing a post to say that people who read my article and responded to it “missed the point”. If I were the author, and I thought that were the case, I’d work on being more clear, or choosing my topics more carefully.

Whatever your intention was, it appears to me that you dropped in to throw an unremarkable pity party. Waaaaa.

I think you acknowledged the point perfectly in the staement

“I think it was acknowledged well enough. How long do you expect people to talk about this, and this alone? It’s a very short article, or a longish op-ed, not the thick stuff of grand debate”

our immersion in, and identification with the pop culture does take relevant topics and makes them hour long with commercial brakes...questions are answered and resolved before the 11 o’clock news and the need to go further is hardly necessary…
Also, i do agree, using the statement “missing the point” was wrong of me...veering off topic is a much better choice…
by the way, how ‘bout them steelers....:-)

What are you talking about?

My best friend told me that the game was postponed until next Sunday.  Then he gave me the Seahawks, with a ten point spread.

If you want some of that action, I’ll be happy to accomodate you.

Scorp 30jan 1046pm

We frogs find chirac dishonest too. BUT Forever happy he no send frogtroops to breath DU in Iraq with lucky patriotic southern americas guys who might get posthumous citizenship. Real American great deal!

But still, and always, you miss the point. Not chirac fault you go. YOU WENT. UNDERLINED .  Now big fuckup; no fault of devious crooked Someone Else.

Liberal
Disagree profundly on your five years of static wages. seemes to me that proof available that it is more like 25 YEARS.

Anyones disagree that the rich getting MUCH richer and the poor,.....  you know what ? And where does that lead ....?

Life is Utter Hell here. Too many bloody unemployeds , and those that have jobs too bloody efficients, much mores so than in the freemarket 51st State of Tony Blair. Statistics and bullshits . Too many bloody roadworks, can’t go anywhere without some mother repairing the bloody roades. It is a totale and utter Disgrace. And those bloody trains. Cost a third of Tony Blairs to go anywheres.

Maybe chirac is a bit old, senile, round the S-bend, Misspeaking like your dearly-beloved GWB, 43&44;, but maybe he was reminding you that we have nukes too, and we are not tony blair ?

Seriously now, for we are serious peuple, would you hire either Blair or Bush to take YOUR dog for a walk?  For Bush certainly not a bitche.

Hey frog, I’ve been meaning to ask you---what’s with Chirac and that little outburst about using nukes against any nation that nuked France? Was that necessary? I understand that world leaders are under a lot of pressure, and if it was a warning to us, I get it; but I hear talk about Germany, England, and France going along with this Iranian nuclear power plant as potential nuclear weapons program soap opera, and I feel like they’re all off their friggin rockers.

There are sedatives. I’m waiting for mine. Tell Mr. Chirac to ride it out, take it easy, don’t have a stroke. We can’t have all these NATO countries popping off. Somebody has to be responsible here, and you know it won’t be the God-Squad.

Hint: If he has a glass of sweet, white wine with a benzodiazepine, he’ll gear down in ten or twenty minutes and will want to spend some quality time gazing out a window. Give him the bad news then. Be ready with another dose if necessary.

The thought of NATO launching an aggressive attack against a country that has the potential to make nuclear weapons---a potential for any country with a nuclear power plant and some former Soviet or Pakistani nuclear physicists. It’s always a possibility, for crying out loud!

But that’s not what this is really about is it?

Our poor little planet. It’s dying. Sigh.

Blair will probably get his come uppance, frog and Bush couldn’t manage a taco stand. REMEMBER, Bush isn’t in charge.  Do tell me what was up with that Chirac thing, frog.

Hey, x2dn, ten point spread. I’d jump in on that action if I were you.

;)

This from december2005

“The law lords’ judgment was so damning of the anti-terror legislation that one of the panel, Lord Hoffman, went as far as saying: “The real threat to the life of the nation, in the sense of people living in accordance with its traditional laws and political values, comes not from terrorism but from laws like these.” “

I watched a few 24’s before giving away my TV.  Here in frogland the media MSM is almost as bad as yours.  (Almost , because we don’t have tvpeople calling for assassination of chavez for example.  Is that man an American Christian ?)
I kept the thing to watch the propaganda machine at work, sort of academic interest, then accepted I get as much evidence as i want from frogradio and the BBBradio, and the newspaper.

24 is a prime example of propagandistic pornoviolence, accustoming people to the idea that the world is ever more dangerous and that WE are in a real war against multiple evil enemies. And of course we must protect ourselves using ANY MEANS.

I remember the shock when NATO first started bombing Yugoslavia, and then how I got used to it. Oh yeah, another bombing of civilian targets, as regular as the weather forecast. The point is to get people used to evil actions, accept that they are powerless.

Some of you and us even believe in the WARONTERRA ! And everyone knows the earth is flat, TOO ! 

Like CC I and many foreigners respect what is good in the US, but abhor the Empire, the unbelievably cruel and unjust prison and legal system, the 95% corrupt lobbied Congress, and the increasing inequalities.

We also condemn the same things at home. France and UK both have about 60,000 in prison for populations of about 60million.  Its a long way from your 2.3mio, but still far too many. Prison conditions here are shameful too. Our governments are heavily lobbied, by the same people as yours, and we trust them less and less.

I could go on and on with more details. The US is leading the way towards fascism, by any definition, but we are not far behind. The New World Order is about controlling populations, dumbing them down, stifling dissent, preferably by “peaceful propaganda”, but with The SWAT teams ready.

I forgot about NATO and Yugoslavia, frog. I was a media hermit for a few years, and know next to nothing about that situation.  The more I learn about Clinton the less I like him.

Oy, weg. Our species has a serious control problem.

WILEY
I know that the quality of education is in free-fall, BUT !

it seems we have a new contender for NATIONAL CLOWN

February 8, 2006—A Department of Justice prosecutor emphatically told this editor that the leadership of the Justice Department is incredibly “stupid.” His statement was in response to this editor’s contention that criminal conspiracy appeared rife within the Justice Department and FBI. However, one statement in Attorney General Alberto Gonzales’s February 6 testimony before the Senate Judiciary Committee supports the Justice Department prosecutor’s contention about rampant stupidity within DOJ.

Gonzales testified that “President Washington, President Lincoln, President Wilson, President Roosevelt have all authorized electronic surveillance on a far broader scale” than George W. Bush.

It is noteworthy that Gonzales failed to mention Richard Nixon’s massive wiretapping program involving the NSA and CIA. But Gonzales’s contention that President Washington engaged in electronic surveillance confirms the stupidity factor within the upper echelons of the Justice Department.

hope this on MISSPEAKING works

I had to look around for that article, frog. I was hoping to find it in The Onion, a very funny news satire site. Didn’t see it on the link you gave, but I’m zonky. Did find it mentioned. My God! It really happened.

I think these guys are on drugs. Not good drugs, or beneficial drugs; but the kind of drugs that make people lose their spouse, and kids, and house, and job, and friends…

You know, it might be one of those trial balloons the administration floats every once in a while to see if the nuts will fall for it. Talk about job security. Sheesh.

Doesn’t the idea of being victimized by someone who would say that Lincoln used electronic surveillance suck beyond belief? It makes me want to kick something.

Alrighty, it’s not as bad as it looks. Here is what he said before that statement:

GONZALES: I gave in my opening statement, Senator, examples where President Washington, President Lincoln, President Wilson, President Roosevelt have all authorized electronic surveillance of the enemy on a far broader scale—far broader—without any kind of probable cause standard, all communications in and out of the country.
Ho ho ho! Washington authorized electronic surveillance? As one wag put it on the radio this morning, what Gonzales meant to say is that Washington authorized smoke signal interception.
But then you read what Gonzales said before:
General Washington, for example, instructed his army to intercept letters between British operatives, copy them and allow those communications to go on their way.
President Lincoln used the warrantless wiretapping of telegraph messages during the Civil War to discern the movements and intentions of opposing troops.
GONZALES: President Wilson, in World War I, authorized the military to intercept each and every cable, telephone and telegraph communication going into or out of the United States.
During World War II, President Roosevelt instructed the government to use listening devices to learn the plans of spies in the United States. He also gave the military the authority to review, without warrant, all telecommunications, quote, “passing between the United States and any foreign country.”
Okay, so he misspoke when he said Washington authorized electronic surveillance. But Lincoln and Wilson and Roosevelt did, and what Washington did was similar, if limited by the technology of the times.

http://www.lifelikepundits.com/archives/002160.php

That was going to drive me nuts. Americans are basically uneasy about asking for clarification. I was trying to find out what other people said after that statement.

Nice little red herring, huh? Now all the people who made fun of him are wrong, and the comparison between Bush and Lincoln, and Washington, still stand (in defiance of gravity) and the Nixon comparison will be attributed to those evil democrats as if Bush wasn’t really doing exactly the same thing.

One thing for sure, we Americans pay top dollar for our propoganda.

Try again for fun

Just a little light relief, maybe he corrected himself straight away, thats de prob with excerpts. Either way, he has long since proved what sort of man he is.

Also findable by a site-search on original link --Alberto;george washington loves electronics too it was the monday funnies, so had dropped off the screen.

Back to the subject and serious business.
I found the transcript for the film “Power of Nightmares”. Good background and analysis, well worth a watch or read.

Wiley
chirac nuke speech mystified many of us here ! He’s getting on a bit, and apparently recently starting to misspeak. Rather worrying when he starts to sound like Bush.

One contrast with some others you know well is that he did go to Algeria (in1956) as a platoon commander, when he could easily have got a cushy posting .

http://www.pollingreport.com/CongJob.htm
http://www.pollingreport.com/BushJob.htm
http://www.surveyusa.com/50State2006/100USSenatorApproval060126Net.htm
The New York Times full page ad calling for the Impeachment of George W. Bush is in today’s paper (January 27, 2006). This ad not only raises the profile of the impeachment campaign but will help bring many tens of thousands of new people into the impeachment movement.

The timing for the ad is excellent. In the coming days there will be Congressional hearings which will examine the impeachable offenses of Bush & Co. The call for impeachment is now coming from all quarters. There is no doubt that Bush and his advisors are well aware that the impeachment demand is quickly becoming a widespread sentiment. They are afraid, and for good reason. We want to seize the momentum and place the ad in various other newspapers and run radio spots as well. We can do it with everyone’s continued support and commitment to this campaign. If you can help, click here.

According to two recent polls the majority of Americans favor impeachment if Bush lied about the reasons for going to war in Iraq or if he engaged in illegal wiretapping. He did both. This is a people’s movement. As the ad states, “The Constitution cannot defend itself. The people must act.”

If every member and supporter of the impeachment movement made a donation, this ad could be placed in newspapers across the country. If you have contributed before, consider making another donation now. If you have never donated this is the time to take action. Please donate today by clicking here.

Let’s increase the heat!

- All of us at VoteToImpeach/ImpeachBush.org

Brian28

Good Luck,! HELL, doesn’t everyone know he lied by now ?
But, if he Nixons, don’t you get Cheney ?

SLIMY GONZO

I see I’m late to the party, but I would like to actually like to offer a criticism of the article. Instead of the tired old comparisons to Hitler, Zizek instead turns to Heinrich Himmler.

It’s not hard to demonstrate that this sort of moral equivalence doesn’t work on anyone with half a brain. I don’t believe it can be proven that Jews were blowing up Nazi buildings, or marching en masse in the streets chanting ‘Death to Germany’. There is, however, ample evidence of the murderous intentions of large sections of Islamic society.

I believe there is justification for the harsh treatment of terrorists and Islamists who wish the West great harm. To do less is akin to laying one’s head on the chopping block. Some of us still have a will to survive, defend the West’s right to exist, and realize that it takes ‘Jack Bauers’ to accomplish that goal.

A watchdog will be loving to its owner and vicious to interlopers. There is no moral contradiction in this case, and I maintain the same idea applies to those willing to defend Western values with as much force as necessary.

Hey, frog, Cheney has been implicated in the outing of Valerie Plame. He may be the first to go. Who knows? I guess it depends on whether or not a tech guy can retrieve the e-mails some parties deleted. This is a serious soap opera. People are singing like canaries, and leaving government posts in droves---hopefully they are leaving so they can sing like canaries.

So far, crashtech, it hasn’t been proven that Muslims crashed into the WTC, and there is no evidence whatsoever that Iraqis were complicit in 9/11, or that Hussein had WMD.

If you want to justify killing terrorsts and Islamists who wish us harm, then you support thought crimes.

And if using as much force as necessary includes nukes, then you wish to use WMDs and---unless you propose making it legal, or at least turning the other cheek, when other countries develop and or use nukes, you are hypocritical and no less a follower of despotism and fanatic nationalism than the Germans during the Third Reich.

crashtech unconciously reveals so eloquently why the world is going to the dogs.

Thank you, crashtech.

crasher

There is NO “ample evidence of the murderous intentions of large sections of islamic society”. That is all in your head.

There is no such simple thing as “islamic society”, at least not as you portray it.
Hundreds of millions of people in many different countries have varied interpretations and practice of their religion, just like Lutherans and Catholics who are all christians ?

Most of them just get on with their lives, whether in morocco or turkey or indonesia or wherever.
Friends just back from three months in morocco made friends with desperately poor peasant farmers , who were kindness and generosity itself.
Other friends had the same experience in syria.
I did in turkey. One of my best friends is lebanese.
I see no reason why you should be so scared of them.

Even if 911 was committed by a few criminal madmen, financed by others, that is not an excuse for throwing american values out of the window .

One interpretation of the Reichstag Fire in1933 is that it was not actually committed by the nazis, but was certainly seized on by Hitler to clamp down on the communist party , and pass his equivalent of the Patriot Act.

Hitler had his 911, but nothing to do with the jews. Get real, read up on some history !

So the comparison of American counter terrorism activities and the Nazi’s pogrom against the Jews is an apt one? I’d love to hear a more in depth defense of this ‘interesting’ point of view.

As far as stuff being ‘in my own head’, I suppose you will agree that all the video of anti-American and now anti-European demonstrations is fabricated, and that fatwas calling for the death of Westerners do not really exist either.

Bah. I don’t know why I bother. Folks who can’t accept obvious facts like 9/11 being caused by Islamic fanactics, or that a large percentage of Muslims approve of the killing of Americans, are beyond reason.

Hey, Crash -

Please don’t be too hard on these benighted souls that peddle tired old socialism on these pages.  They do have a sort of stupid genius for unworkable political actions.  And they have a certain charming idiocy with their total lack of familiarity with rational thought processes. 

But their main virtue is their all-encompassing inability to attract voters to their absolute lack of a real political philosophy.  So we should encourage them to keep doing whatever it is that they are doing (wrong) now. 

George Bush will look good on Mount Rushmore.

“Folks who can’t accept obvious facts like 9/11 being caused by Islamic fanactics, or that a large percentage of Muslims approve of the killing of Americans, are beyond reason.”

“they have a certain charming idiocy with their total lack of familiarity with rational thought processes.”

That is very interesting.

crasher

American counter-terrorism tactics are similar to those used by the french army in algeria, the german army in occupied france, the british army during the maumau revolt in kenya, the chilean army under PINOCHET.

ALL USED TORTURE. All have been condemned by international public opinion. Pinochet is on trial.

I repeat== HITLER’S 911 WAS THE REICHSTAG FIRE, AFTER WHICH HE PASSED HIS” PATRIOT ACT”.

DUH ?

No mention by me of pogroms OR socialism.

crasher

a few anti-western demonstrations and a fatwah by some mullah or other are now your excuse for torture ?

In europe we don’t easily get frightened by silly shit like that. Down the years we have had our share of real terrorism. But of course there is every reason for muslims in general to fear and hate your Empire, and its poodles.

On a lighter note THIS IS MY FAVOURITE !

This only goes to show that hysteria is not confined just to the US.

I don’t excuse torture. I reluctantly advocate it against an enemy that shows no sign of playing by the rules. It doesn’t need to be complicated. When one side takes the gloves off, the other side must oblige if it is not suicidal.

I suppose flyin