Black Men: The Crisis Continues

Black men in crisis. Ho hum.

Solutions to black men in crisis - now that could be dynamite!

Posted by wolf on Apr 27, 2006 at 7:33 AM

Okay- enough already about the sorry state of the american black man.  Common sense ought to tell all of us that it’s too late to save 99.99% of the men this article addresses.

SAVE THE CHILDREN. SAVE THE BLACK BABIES- BOYS and girls. Okay?  Read to a child, mentor a child, sponsor financial literacy - entrepreneurial camps, teach them about responsibility, morals and the love of God and fellow (wo)man.  Because if you take a good hard look at the men in the inner city so many of them have given up and just don’t give a damn anymore. 

By all means, let us continue to encourage, support and edify our black brothers who are still in the struggle.  For those who have given up the cause, just pray for them.  AND LET’S MOVE ON.

Posted by chiseron on Apr 27, 2006 at 11:56 AM

Fuck God, and fuck you.  Both of you.

Posted by Major Major on Apr 27, 2006 at 3:42 PM

You can hardly solve a problem if you do not know what the problem is.

President Johnson promoted the “Great Society”, and a major part of the program was Welfare.  But Welfare had the effect of making babies valuable, and men worthless.  Babies got money payments, but the presence of a man in the home reduced those payments.  Welfare cost $6.6 trillion dollars before it was eliminated, and the only impractical effect of welfare was to destroy the black family.

President Clinton was nearly as mindless as Jimmeh Carter, but even Clinton saw that Welfare was not working and did something about it, thirty years after Daniel Patrick Moynihan described the problem. 

But the problem now is the great number of unattached black males.  How do you build family values in an environment which regularly assaults family values: abortion, gay rights, illegitimacy, etc.  Chiseron says to “move on”.  OK, how?  Chiseron as some good ideas, but we need a massive, non-bureaucratic, effort.  Aye, that’s the rub.

Posted by scorp on Apr 27, 2006 at 10:06 PM

Actually, the practical effect of welfare was to mitigate the poverty endured by the indigent whose services were no longer required by the businessmen who once employed them.  Millions were fed, housed, clothed and educated by a government which recognized its responsibility “to promote the general welfare”.  No one claimed to be “saving souls” or “building family values” or whatever other fatuous euphemism politicians employ to flog the faithful.  It was understood that people were free to form their own “values” and save their own “souls”, without the benevolent interference of the god squad.

Posted by Major Major on Apr 28, 2006 at 4:55 AM

MM -

Oh, gosh, I have to apologize.  I did not realize that your “millions” of people who were formerly on Welfare are now starving, homeless, and naked, and now are ignorant, whereas during Welfare they were all “fed, housed, clothed and educated”, by the “government” ( the taxpayer, in reality).  So, why don’t we just put everyone on Welfare, and solve all our problems?

Or, you could pull your head out of your leftist ass, and realize that before Welfare, they worked to support themselves, and after Welfare, they again worked to support themselves - even as you and I. 

Back some years ago, I read that it cost $30,000 to create a job; I am sure the cost has not gone down in the last dozen years or so.  But how many jobs could be created by $6.6 trillion, which is approximately the same as the national debt?  Money which is taxed away to support socialist bureaucratic schemes is not available for job creation.  This is the dilemma Old Europe finds itself in; the bloated Eurobureaucracy consumes billions in resources while millions are out of work.

The USA economy limped along from the start of Johnson’s Great Society until Reagan lowered taxes and established economic reforms, after which the economy went into the greatest sustained advance in history.  Unfortunately, Clinton had no economic program or knowledge, and he raised taxes and allowed the economy to overheat (the Bubba Bubble).  The dotcom crash came in Clinton’s last year, when the NASDAQ fell from over 5000 to under 2000, which lead directly to the recession in 2001.  Fortunately, my man Bush was on the job, restored the tax cuts, and the economy again took off, but on a sustainable level, unlike Clinton’s debacle. 

The American economy is an amazing, resilient thing, and only gets into trouble when Dimocrats raise taxes and try to help the victims they define and create.

Posted by scorp on Apr 28, 2006 at 6:21 AM

MM -

<blockquote>It was understood that people were free to form their own

Posted by scorp on Apr 28, 2006 at 8:16 AM

The problem defined as Black Men In Crisis that scorp so vehemently defined in the racist terms of the conservative movement is another attempt to blame the victime for deficiencie in the society they created and live off. Young black men are the canaries in the coalmine of a industrial capitalist society.

Young black men are simply the most vulnerable but eventually a society predicated on greed will eventually devour all its children. Trained by the schools to accept a life of isolation, vunerability and quiet desparation they no longer can find protection in a sense of community and collective strength. The schools train all children to accept lives of anomynity and quiet desparation. Hered like cattle from one grade to another and graded like some quality control program gone amuck they no longer yearn for happiness and a sense of fullfilment - all of this has been reduced to consumerism and a purchased identity. Scorn is eating our children now but his insatiable greed will eventually drive him to devour his own. WHen A society rejoices in the destruction of significant portions of its society - for any reason even their deficits - then it needs to look at itself. That may too much to ask of Scorn. He may no longer be able to see himself beyond the bitterness and hate that he thrives on.

Posted by Baraka on Apr 28, 2006 at 8:37 AM

Baraka -

Are you one person, or two?  Your first paragraph is a mindless collection of cliches, thoroughly off-putting.  But your second paragraph is well thought out and evocative. 

In fact, your second paragraph is main-stream conservative. 

The NEA and the education hierarchy are among the main components of the Dimocrat’s constituency politics, and these are the people who look to their own interests, to the exclusion of the interests of the children that need education.  Thus we have Dims in Florida and Michigan limiting the avalilability of school vouchers, knowing that school vouchers deliver quality education at low cost; but then how would the NEA meet its funding and political goals if children went somewhere else for an education?

President Bush picked up several points among black voters in the 2004 election by appealing to shared values; many functional black families have strong moral, religious, and family values.  The Dims did not appreciate that and immediately redoubled their attacks on Bush in order to keep blacks on board the Dimocratic train to nowhere.

I have absolutely no problem with feel-good policies and politics, as long as they are rooted in rational, factual fundamentals.  But Johnson’s Great Society was rooted in socialist nonsense, and blacks were the particular victims of the Dims’ stupidity, as described so well in this article. 

The recent plight of black Americans has been adversely affected by socialist policies.  If you need a vision of just how bad socialist policies can become, look to the Soviet Union with its corruption, inefficiency, destruction, and death.  That is what is being described in this article, but Muwakkil somehow thinks that more socialism will solve the problems socialism has created.  But in every single example we have, more socialism creates worse problems.  I defy you to show me an exception to this general rule.

Posted by scorp on Apr 28, 2006 at 11:15 AM

“The scholars cite many reasons for this deterioration. Primary among them are bad schools, absent parents, racism, structural changes in the economy and a subculture that glorifies gangsterism.”

The above quote from the New York Times article provides some clues as to what has contributed to the plight of black men in America.

However, the average reader in America will not make much sense out of those examples because 1.The welfare of black people has always been anathema to white Americans and 2. As a result of (1), these examples will only lead to an intraracial deficiency analysis that points to the inadequacy and moral degenerancy of black people.

in my opinion, racism is the main reason. The other three are subcategories of racism. For example, why are there bad schools? Bad schools are born out of bad neighborhoods. Bad neighborhoods exist because of their relationship to “good” or shall we say wealthy neighborhoods (racial housing segregration and racial districting in America is well documented). Bad neighorboods are also characterized by a lack of resources (food, shelter, clothing, healthcare, poverty, underemployment, unemployment - in short, all the things that constitute the quality of life. All of these manifestations are reflected in the racialized neighborhoods that make up America and that restructure access to resources and structural relations of power.

Absent Parents. The family structure within the black community has always been in a constant state of struggle in terms of the ability to remain supportive and nurturing as a collective group in the context of racial hostility and social violence. The average white person simply is not sensitive enough to understand the impact of this which has lasted for centuries. The amazing thing is that the black community has been able to establish wonderful networks of caring IN SPITE OF racism. Yet, the current assault on black men has brought us face to face with a serious crisis.

Structural changes in the economy refer once again to the restructuring of society to accommodate significant changes in the global capitalist era, such as out sourcing labor, and more recently, moving suburbanites back into metropolitan areas, formerly perceived by white folks as a menacing place filled with black criminals, pushing out poor working class families who live within or around the perrimeter of these areas. This once again stems from racism, not so much because white people are sitting around planning these things but out of a persisting social pattern that has duplicated itself for generations and generations to sustain white domination and class privilege.

Gangsterism of course is the outcome of living in a neighborhood where the systemcatic pattern of poverty and marginalization has led to alternative economies and the base masculine behavior of gangsterism that functions as an destructive overcompensation of the racist and impoverished conditions that black men continue to face.

These are all outcomes of American-style racism: a society of power and privilege that is centered around white supremacy, even when whites themselves are faced with problems of their own. American society always finds a way to punish black people by implementing racist legal and institutional policies that disproportionately affect black men.

Posted by Epistrophy on Apr 28, 2006 at 2:12 PM

Scorp is willing to identify my comments on the canaries in the coalmine as a mindless collection of clichés and then goes on to drag our his own favorite mindless and unsubstantiated clichés in rebuttal. There is not one clear critically constructed thought in his following diatribe. Just more conservative rambling and posturing.

Obviously the product of a mediocre public school education.  His conservative capitalist notion of an equitable society is undercut by a system that has as it governing virtue _ Greed. The desire to make as much money as possible at any cost to anyone but one’s self drips from his commentary. He will eat his children for a price, seasoned or not.

Any one of any political persuasion that holds Geo. Bush up as a model for ethical of effective behavior of any stripe should be dismissed out of hand, like his father before him and the Nazi loving grandfather before him. Never mind the racist and empty-headed movie star R. Reagan.

These personalities are in their own way vile and tI should not be distracted by mediocre political rambling of little substance that distract my energy away from the issues which plaque our country.

The industrial society has reached its zenith and is now on its way down.  One does not need to look to the Russian society to find the cause of human suffering. Capitalism in this country has provide enough examples of greed and corruption.

White men came to this country and stole the natural resources of the indigenous people in ways that creatively out strips anything socialism could ever create or execute. Even now in the 21st century the institutional racism and the greed of the white oligarchy that prey upon the labor of its citizens is beyond comparison. We have a government, republican and democratic that is owned by the corporate oligarchy. The advance of some with the marginalization of everyone else is a hustle like the lottery where one or two win while millions learn to be good losers

Posted by Baraka on Apr 28, 2006 at 2:56 PM

“Those areas where people are motivated the most by greed are the areas that we’re the most satisfied with: supermarkets, computers, FedEx.” By contrast, areas “where people say we’re motivated by ‘caring’”—public education, public housing etc.—“are the areas of disaster in our country. . . .

Does anything get done based on “human love and kindness”? Well, a nonprofit group called City Harvest collects donations of restaurants’ surplus food for the poor. But where does that food come from? Greedy people like Virgil Rosanke produce it, and greedy restaurateurs buy it. Kindness can only give away the goods self-love provides.

mmmm…...capitalism

Posted by Natalie on Apr 28, 2006 at 6:51 PM

Thank You Baraka and Epistrophy

How can anyone stand next to the Strom Thurmund/Tren Lott ‘s of the world and say ” I’m not a racist !!! “

Let’s consider the sense of entitlement which continues to permeate our society. Todays wealthy believe they deserve their gains because of their own acumen and the poor just don’t have ” it “.

Baraka has a good point. Scorp is definetely seasoning his children before sending them out to colonize. Always conservatively and using the brand     ” Salt of the Earth “

Posted by R.B.Green on Apr 29, 2006 at 12:48 AM

To properly answer this question we have to look at the structure of our society.

Throwing welfare dollars at a societal structure designed by Moloch, the evil child-eating deity, might not in the end work out. 

What has Moloch been up to lately? 
Please research prison construction vs. school construction (California in the 90’s as the biggest example, though Massachusetts is currently trying this out).

California’s prison system was privatized (read: companies can make $ off of the incarcerated) and prison construction rose 700% in a years when violent crime was decreasing.

This will make for dry reading, in order to spice things up start looking at the referendums that were going before Californian voters at the same time.  They were trying to find ways to give jail time for spray painting graffiti.  They were trying to label small groups of kids hanging out together gangs.  I wonder if the prison lobby in California had something to do with these referendums?

Next up, take a look at the public school disparities that exist, try Birmingham, Michigan vs Detroit, Michigan (Moloch was born in a little house right off Woodward).  But why pick on Detroit?  We could also use some rural Michigan towns where school years have been shortened due to a lack of funds.

Moloch does not want an additional Bill of Rights concerning Education.

Posted by rodya on Apr 30, 2006 at 6:18 AM

The public schools were created to transform an agrarian population into an industrial workforce.  You can’t operate a steel mill without draftsmen, engineers, metallurgists and chemists.  Unfortunately, the teachers invested with the responsibility of educating their students actually assumed their responsiblities and taught their students to appreciate less practical subjects, such as Art, Music, English Lit, Economics, Sociology and Political Science, which compelled many of their proteges to assume a correspondingly critical perspective with respect to the more traditional American institutions of racism, sexism, class stratification and imperialism, which in turn transformed an ignorant, labor-intensive agricultural workforce into an educated, capital-intensive industrial workforce, one which became increasingly more aware of the actual value of its own labor and united among themselves to demand their fair share of the profits to be derived from it.  Faced with the unappealing prospect of providing a commensurate compensation for the people who actually performed the work, commensurate to the compensation given to those who simply supervised the labor of those who did, our industrial titans decided instead to transfer their enterprise to more pastoral environs, first to the suburbs, then to the exurbs, then out of the state, and finally out of the country.  Those who could afford to follow the industrial migration were easilly incorporated into its system, while those who could not were allowed to remain mired in their own misery, one which was created by misers who immiserate the miserable with half-assed theories of market economics and religious salvation, when in fact their primary objective is to maintain the comfort, power and privilege to which they believe they remain eternally entitled.

Posted by Major Major on Apr 30, 2006 at 7:46 AM

Epistrophy -

<blockquote>“The scholars cite many reasons for this deterioration. Primary among them are bad schools, absent parents, racism, structural changes in the economy and a subculture that glorifies gangsterism.

Posted by scorp on Apr 30, 2006 at 9:35 AM

A Subculture that Glorifies Gangsterism

Glorifying gangsterism is not a Republican vice.  But it is a fact that sports and entertainment are prominent in our culture, and a few thousand black people hit it big.  Unfortunately, a few million people think that they might hit it big, and they neglect their studies to concentrate on their ball handling, rap, and batting averages.  At any given time there are exactly 1440 NFL player slots, and a couple of million young men who think they can pull down one of those slots.  There is zero payoff for the vast majority of those who spend their time practicing ball or so-called music.  Most of them simply don’t make it. 

At the same time, there is a very high demand for educated and skilled young people for good paying jobs, if they want to try a more conventional line of work. 

You may pretend that everything is racial, but it is not.  Defining the problem wrongly restricts your ability to deal with the problem.

Posted by scorp on Apr 30, 2006 at 9:36 AM

MM -

Faced with the unappealing prospect of providing a commensurate compensation for the people who actually performed the work, commensurate to the compensation given to those who simply supervised the labor of those who did, our industrial titans decided instead to transfer their enterprise to more pastoral environs, first to the suburbs, then to the exurbs, then out of the state, and finally out of the country.  Those who could afford to follow the industrial migration were easilly incorporated into its system, while those who could not were allowed to remain mired in their own misery, one which was created by misers who immiserate the miserable with half-assed theories of market economics and religious salvation, when in fact their primary objective is to maintain the comfort, power and privilege to which they believe they remain eternally entitled.

You may fancy yourself as an alliterist, but don

Posted by scorp on Apr 30, 2006 at 10:27 AM

scorp:
and you call my response nonsense? I’m not sure if you were responding to my comments are just venting.

You are all over the map with your comments but the subject of black men seemed to escape you.

The quote you start out with is actually taken from the above article by Muwakkil. I would continue this correspondence further, but nothing could possibly come from it.

Posted by Epistrophy on Apr 30, 2006 at 1:39 PM

Good Grief, Gomer.  I didn’t mean to confuse you.

Actually, I did, but I can see that your ideological armor renders you impervious to reasonable discourse.  You’re obviously the product of a parochial education.  In your Manichean universe, the Democrats are evil and the Republicans epitomize an apotheosis of civic virtue.  In such a universe it’s easy to demonize the soft sciences and deify the more phallic, mathematical and physical academic disciplines.  You might be surprised (and dismayed) to discover that economics and market finance are included among the former, flaccid category.  In fact, it’s become increasingly apparent that the hard sciences have lately lost much of their, um, rigid rigor, what with quantum mechanics and Godel’s inconsistency theorems, and all that…

Sorry about the alliteration.

Nevertheless, I’m encouraged to observe that we agree on a variety of topics, namely,  that “fashions in scholarship are trailing indicators”, by which I assume you mean that the general quality of education has declined.  Of course, you blame the socialists and the Marxists for this unfortunate event, whereas I can only once more reiterate what I had previously stated: that we live in a postindustrial universe where the industry is increasingly outsourced away from traditional urban or national centers, in pursuit of cheap labor, by the people who own the industries and regard the subsequent social dislocation they create as inconsequential to their own personal interests.  The quality of education is coupled to the quantiy of industrial development.  As industrial development declines, so does the quality of education, at least for the people whose skills and services are no longer required.  You don’t have to be a supply-side, free-market, evangelical economist to understand this.

In fact, your inability to understand it proves the point.

Posted by Major Major on Apr 30, 2006 at 3:46 PM

Scorp and other Repubs. want to point the racist finger at Dems ?!?!
Answer the Trent Lott Question !!!!

Posted by R.B.Green on Apr 30, 2006 at 3:56 PM

Scorp:

Your response is in the main interesting and well put but like so many racists essential bent to conform to an immoral point of view. Democrat or Republican is of little matter. I could characterize the differences but find that dichotomy of little value. Your references condemn you. To align you point of view with republican or free market values reveals the villain behind your intelligence.

There is a false notion that political pundits like to hang their hat on, namely, to embrace industrial capitalism is to be in favor of individualism and the strength of the individual effort in the form of a zero sum paradigm

Posted by Baraka on Apr 30, 2006 at 4:22 PM

Its quite obvious that racism still exists, and that the ramifications of it are still present.  Yet, I still question whether in 2006, it is racism is the main force keeping black men down, black people in general.  This has been a given truth to me for many years, but when I look at my fellow peers, at school, at home, on the streets, I cant help but to see other elements leading to some of thier demise.  In addition, I cant help but see how these other elements are disregarded because the “self evident truth” is that blacks are being held back by a racist government and white people. 

The “racism explains the demise of the black male”  is not a self evident truth that is never questioned to me anymore.  I think it hurts when we fail to look at ourselves, and take responsibility for some of the things we have done.  It hurts when the self destructive patterns are discussed, yet blamed on racis {ie., single parent black families exist because the system is set up to demise black men, not, some black men have failed to be responsible for their children}.  That means we as black people have no responsibility in our decisions and actions.  This means that black people in are helpless victims who are so inferiror we cant even help ourselves.

And this notion is false.  About a month ago I went to the Berkeley Conference of African Americans at UCB.  I had never seen so many successful blacks unified in a gathering like that before.  There were doctors, teachers, public service people, lawyers and bussinessmen.  And no-these people are not tokens as many say they are.  Members of my family that have risen from adversity are not token success stories.  The decisions, actions and hard work of these people have beared the fruit of thier success. 

We still have some work to do in the area of equality, yet year after year I find it hard to believe that racism is what is holding us back-because it hasnt held me, my peers [including males], family, mentors, and the many successful/unsuccessful black folk i know back.  Furthermore, the “self evident truth” has become harder and harder to believe because I see self destructing patterns that have hurt our plight in many significant ways.  These are the same self destructing patterns which are blamed on racism.  And finally, its become harder for me to believe because were are not inferior, we are a strong people and equal.  And with that equality, we are just as responsible for our decisions and actions as every other human being.

As for solutions, I dont completely know.  I have found that mentoring,  makes a small but significant differnece .  When i tutor young black elementry students, and I tell them i go to UCB, they start to think “if she can, then i can” and I have had the likewise experience with my mentors.  We should push for school reform yet at the same time we should have more of a value of our education as we have [yall know what im talking bout, “at least get c’s so you can go to the 6th grade, or “education is for white folk” attitude].  non profits and or faith based programs that not only aid those in need, but lead to a path of self sufficiency seem like a good idea also.

Posted by berkeleygurl on May 1, 2006 at 7:48 AM

To: Berkeleygurl

I owe many people on this exchange an apology. I felt that Scorp, by his comments and the derogatory quality of his rhetoric was holding on to racist views and I labeled them as such. I beleive the larger society is searching for some sense of fairness and equity all though not very successfully. The lack of success is due in large part to the institutional racism in the government and the actions of the congress and other institutions that maintain and reflect an attraction to racist views and opinions. Institutional racism in our schools and commercial institutions are obvious and widespread. There is also the classicism of an industrial society that removes the opportunity of equity from those already hampered by institutional bias.

The tone and generosity of your posting made realize how much can be gained from a temperate and kind approach to discussion and dialogue – including my own clarity of thought and insightfulness. Thank you!

I still hold a lot of anger and hate for no one in particular, but stored like some genetic defect acquired from 70 years of American citizenship. I try to not let it take over my live and harden my heart but I am not always successful just as scorp gives into a villainous spew of half facts and distortions. He/she might be equally trapped in his anger like I have been on many occasions so I will try to be more understanding in the future.

I need to look more carefully at my assumptions and perhaps others will do the same as a reasonable and critical precursor to dialogue.

Keep the conversation going.

Posted by Baraka on May 1, 2006 at 8:56 AM

If racism hasn’t held you back I suppose you can gurantee your wage will be the same as your white counterparts ...

Do they have affirmative action at Berkley?

It’s easy to say ” I made it why can’t you ?”

You can be as responsible as you want , but if you don’t have a Math textbook you are not going to pass Math. If you have no bootstraps you can’t pull them up…

Please reread Majormajor and Epistrophy above and try to understand…

The handfull of our sucessful fellow African-Americans you encountered are as diverse as the Gangstaz on the block and neither got there by themselves.

6% of all African-Americans in the inner city schools in Chicago go to college…These high schools are overrun with the street, lack simple tools to be able to regurgitate trivia for the state tests (no child left .......), no books , no labs equipt. overcrowded classrooms, no PE for non athletes, no music supplies, no art supplies, etc…....
The sad truth is when I visit these children really do want to learn - not condecended to, not lied to, and not bamboozeled by this system.

Fredrick Douglass pointed out the adverse affects of psycological Slavery.

once a month the slaveowner would throw a little party for their slaves—
let’em run free a little bit—then on Monday you’d be pickin cotton again.

People who have power will remain in power by any means nessessary
(see GWB)
How many African-americans are in the Senate??

Enjoy your party berkeleygurl

Posted by R.B.Green on May 1, 2006 at 9:15 AM

Mr. Muwakkil:

I can relate to your frustration and understand why you come back to the issue of Black men in America.  What I can’t appreciate is your referencing articles published in the NY Times.  My concern is why nobody ever ask Black men why we’re in the situation we’re in, and specifically why nobody ever ask those Black men these studies portray why they are in the situation they’re in.  To a man you’d probably find that somewhere along the line they made a decision or were affected by a decision that another Black man made that steered their life down a path toward their current state.  Also to a man, if they could pinpoint that one decision we’d all discover that the decision was in effect a rejection of the subserviant role prescribed to Africans by Europeans over the last 500 or so years.  Black men who throw their lives away by making decisions that lead to their ruin are actually committing social suicide.  This suicide is an act of total and absolute rejection of white subjegation represented by white culture and values.  Black American history is a history of resistance.  Many more Africans died and/or committed suicide during the middle passage than made it to these shores.  Black men in America are jumping ship, many would much rather be dead (or among the living dead) than live under European domination.

Posted by theloneous on May 1, 2006 at 2:05 PM

I wonder - why help/focus on poor black people? Why not just help/focus on poor people. . .?

Even then, the problems are very difficult to even begin to address. How do you help children abandoned/neglected by their parents? How does government - or other agencies such as churches, etc - help individuals who reject their help? Or are unaware that help exists? Can institutions solve the problems of individuals? Can the macroscopic fix the microscopic?

Either way,  it seems better to concentrate on the actual problem - poverty. Regardless of whether the impoverished are black, white, red, yellow or even green.

Posted by wolf on May 1, 2006 at 2:47 PM

Baraka -

You have referred to me as racist.  Regardless of how poorly I express myself, racist I am not. 

We are totally agreed that the black community, and black men in particular, have a major problem.  The problem is of long duration.  The problem was made catastrophically worse by paying black women and children to have black men abandon and neglect their families, which is what the Great Society Welfare program did. 

President Johnson’s Welfare program established the game rules whereby responsibility was taken from men and dependence was inflicted on women.  The Democratic Party has played the game to perfection, assisted by a few prominent black leaders.  The great mass of blacks were made dependent victims, and nothing was expected of them.  You and I are complaining about the same result. 

Natalie and Berkeleygurl are the only two people on this site who have made practical statements on solving this problem.  But my field is management dynamics, and I assure you that glorifying and subsidizing dependence is destructive to the hierarchy’s chosen victims, that is, the Democratic Party’s chosen black victims.  It is personally, socially, and culturally destructive, just as you have identified in your complaints.  Subsidizing the victim does not cure the problem, it only assures that the problem continues. 

We must find a way to restore power and independence to the black community and to black men.  That is our only hope.

Posted by scorp on May 1, 2006 at 7:50 PM

As long as blacks keep dropping out of high school and then those dropouts have kids ... there is no hope.

Actually I think it’s too late already.

And the only one’s to blame are the blacks themselves.

No one forced them to drop out, no one forced them to have kids when they don’t even have a high school diploma.

Posted by tina1 on May 1, 2006 at 8:40 PM

First of all let me address the idiocy of Tina1.

It is common to blame the victim and her screed does nothing more than that. The schools are failing everyone and are in fact an effort at social engineering that prepares the workers of this country for a life of isolation, humiliation and impotence. The school fail everyone and deny our children their humanity and convinces them that the industrial life of degradation and subservience is inevitable and appropriate. It trains us to accepts unhappiness as the natural fallout from industrial life. You get out of high school unable to ask a reasonable question or initiate an open discussion that results in greater understanding or a higher level of consciousness.

Schools produce automatons who thrive on a single viscera

Posted by Baraka on May 1, 2006 at 10:46 PM

Why is it that the dropout rate is so high in black areas?

Why is that the most sucessful schools have the highest parent involvement?

Why is that even in an all black high school some of those black students excell and go on to college?

My cousin is a teacher and she wanted to teach in a low income school, so she did.  She taught 3rd grade in a school in the poorest area ... and guess what happened.  She disciplinted a black girl that was out of line and the girl went home and told her mom.  Instead of her mom telling the little girl that she shouldn’t act like that ... the mom came down to the school complaining about my cousin (teacher). 

It gets better.  The mom found a picture of her daughter’s teacher in a flyer and made many copies and posted them on telephone poles around the school insulting the teacher, my cousin.  So my cousin left and taught at another school, an all white school.

Now what did that the little 3rd grade girl learn?  She learned that there was no penalty for her behavior, in fact, she was rewarded by her mom for her bad behavior by getting rid of her teacher.  And you wonder why 60% of our jail and prison population is black ... 60% of all inmates are black but blacks make up only about 15% of our population.

Can you figure it out now?

Posted by tina1 on May 2, 2006 at 12:42 AM

tina1 - i also know teachers who have had similar experiences (in both black and white schools), But there is more. What about the child sitting next to the troublemaker, whose life is disrupted (both by the troublemakers themselves and even worse, their being abandoned by competent teachers)? The good kids pay the same price as the “bad” ones. (Here there is an obvious solution however - the principle should back up the teachers. But that is a rarity, at least where i live.)

Furthermore, parents who have little financial resources tend to be: 1) not that bright; 2) scrambling to make ends meet (long hours on the job); and 3) way too overstressed emotionally and physically. Even under the best of circumstances, it is tough to raise children, but under poor circumstances a lot is simply left to “luck” (which obviously is mostly bad).

Of course, none of this is a “black” problem. It is a problem of how to deal with the underclass. Any viable solution has to take into account that there always will be a bottom 25% of people with respect to motivation, intelligence, morals, etc. Many (perhaps most) of these people could make useful contributions to society, if the circumstances were favorable. It is no benefit to anyone to dump massive amounts of people in prison (wasted lives and wasted tax dollars).

One person can make a difference. Here there are programs for people to read to kids in the disadvantaged schools. One can mentor a child that needs help. We are what we do. All of us have the capacity to make the world a better place, one child at a time. . .

Posted by wolf on May 2, 2006 at 7:41 AM

Dear Tina1
Was your relative the teacher who was ill-prepared for class and upset that a little black girl disrupted her decorum? Or was she the wonderful teacher who had just had enough of the noise and lack of discipline for one day or was the mother just fed up with the stench of middle class values and privilege that alienates her from the educational system?

It could have been any number of things none of which disputes your version of what happened but to form policy on the basis of your bias against black children and their parents is exactly what we do. For all you know it might have been the curriculum or your relative’s lack of confidence or pedagogical preparation. It might have been the unsuitability of that child for that class or that parent for what has been her particular load to bear in life and none of it your relatives fault or capacity to solve but your assessment from the anecdotal tale you wove for us reeks of the same vile prejudices that drive our country and taints our school systems.

But lets form a policy out of your story. First lets put the mother in jail for slander and take her children and make them wards of the state. Now lets punish the little girl for not having an adequate mother or family life and financial resources to be born into the middle class. Throw her out of school because she doesn’t deserve to be there. Lets look around and find all those undeserving black children and their no good parents and put them away so that your middle class family and do gooder motives can be adequately rewarded. I am ashamed that the mother and child didn’t recognize the missionary work your family is doing for them and act accordingly – you know something like taking a maids job in your home for minimal wages. Oh. You don’t need a maid? Well we must find something interesting for them to do so that they don’t get into trouble learning how to use a Xerox machine that could be used to defame your relative’s good name.

Dear Tina1 May God have mercy on your soul, with the milk of human kindness by the quart in every vein.

Posted by Baraka on May 2, 2006 at 8:52 AM

Ah, the Wolf,

I can see you have your heart in the right place. You have been carefully taught to be a bigot, black or white, male or female. Reducing people to percentages of moral certitude.

Posted by Baraka on May 2, 2006 at 9:49 AM

Baraka - you are so very confused. And so hostile! Where to even begin. . . ?

If you really want to know about someone, you should ask questions (hint - i am not a Christian, for instance)! But maybe you aren’t interested in actual people, only with the weird stereotypes you make up in your head? I had a difficult time not laughing as i read your version of who *i* am. :)

Better yet, rather than vent here (or even in addition to) you might actually attempt to put your energy into helping others. Have you made efforts to teach children to read? Visited schools that need help (despite your assertion that “The schools don’t need missionaries” they do like and benefit greatly from volunteers, either white or black!). Hey, i do and surely you are even better than me - so prove it.

Anyway we do agree on one thing - i definitely do not want to “get you started”, *unless* it somehow involves actually helping someone in need.

Whoever wrote this was really on to something:
“The tone and generosity of your posting made realize how much can be gained from a temperate and kind approach to discussion and dialogue – including my own clarity of thought and insightfulness. Thank you!”
What happened?

Posted by wolf on May 2, 2006 at 11:15 AM

Dear Wolf,
Its true I don’t know who you are and if I missed characterized you in some way that the characterization was put I apologize. Its a bad habit to make assumptions based in the sort of oblique comments you made. It was like a red flag that triggered all the wrong buttons - no excuse.

The notion that there is an underclass sort of stuck in my craw. I don’t feel good about those sorts of asumptions. Your assumptino that I need to help others has the same ring of bias so careful.

Assigning people to demographic niches has a facist quality to it, particularly when they result in the characterizations you presented.

Thank you for your comments and admonitions.
Baraka

Posted by Baraka on May 2, 2006 at 12:55 PM

It would be a mistake to accuse people like scorp, wolf and tina1 of racism.  They resent the misrepresentation and they would be right to resent it.  These folks are equal opportunity sado-masochists, a skill which is highly regarded among the military elite, especially the Marine Scorp, where shitting on your subordinates and kissing your superior officer’s’ butt is the institutional norm.  Most of us return to civilian status and manage to resolve the experience.  But the ass-kissing, ass-kicking power-tripping bullshit usually requires a much longer period of resolution.  Often there is no resolution.

Ora pro nobis.

Posted by Major Major on May 2, 2006 at 2:44 PM

Dear Tina1
“Was your relative the teacher who was ill-prepared for class and upset that a little black girl disrupted her decorum?”

“But lets form a policy out of your story. First lets put the mother in jail for slander and take her children and make them wards of the state. Now lets punish the little girl for not having an adequate mother or family life and financial resources to be born into the middle class.”

Posted by Baraka on May 2, 2006
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Baraka,
You reply is exactly why our schools are screwed up.  You blame it on the teacher, not the student. 

I graduated HS in 83’, which puts me in 1st grade in 70’.  In Canton, Ohio back then the teachers use to paddle students and not that many kids got out of control.  But thanks to liberals, teachers are not allowed to paddle students anymore and kids can say and do all kinds of things now ... and not get punished.

If kids from broken homes don’t get disciplined at home and now they don’t get disciplined at school, NO WONDER OUR PRISONS ARE GROWING. 

You liberals just don’t get it !!!

Posted by tina1 on May 3, 2006 at 10:57 PM

I’ve had almost every kind of kid in my classroom, migrants and hometowners, super-rich and super-broke, all skin colors and a raft of language/culture orientations. In identifying what separated those who managed to be successful in high school from those who could not, I observe a few main factors:

1) Articulated expectations and follow-through by parents. Sometimes this is unfortunately focused on punishments or threats by some parents, but when the child is given respectful encouragement as well as meaningful incentives for performance (e.g. privileges that depend strictly upon the child carrying out his duties at school), the positive results are vivid, much more so than when the kid is just avoiding punishment.

2) An appetite for “something better” in the child himself. This is rather more than what people typically understand when they refer to “ambition”, although it is often called by that word. It’s more of an belief in the possibility of one’s own excellence as an expression of self-respect, and a wish to actually reach it. This doesn’t mean you’ll get the valedictorian; it may mean, for example, that a kid who doesn’t do so hot in Government class might still demonstrate their wish to be/come excellent at, say, art or music or writing. (if your school still has art or music programs, or teaches kids how to write… hope so!)

3) Akin to 2) above, a reliable mindset that the kid himself is his own best ally, an internal locus of control. Giving that responsibility or power to someone else just doesn’t wash, and it is sad when a kid has been taught to think that way. It also holds him down.

Those are the main ones. There are a tiny percentage of kids with natural genius in some particular area, or the very rare uberkids for whom success at everything seems effortless. I’m not really focusing on them.

Further, sometimes kids have to find a path toward excellence in spite of the teacher, because as we all experienced and as has always been so, some teachers really are just marking time and are worse than useless as childrens’ guides. Burnout cases or incompetents. Sad to say, but we all have had to endure their classes, have we not? But why allow that factor to hold us back?

The racial profile, in my experience, is only significant to the extent that it correlates with the other helpful factors, which is to say, not reliably. There’s no doubt in my mind, having done this gig since the mid-1980s, that when the child feels accountable, knows he is supported and respected, and is encouraged to think of himself as having great potential for a bright future, AND knows that it his own role to identify and reach his own meaningful goals, not only is scholastic success likely but so is the chance that he will have a more fulfilling, dignified, dare I say prosperous life.

...more…

Posted by Kuya on May 4, 2006 at 1:19 AM

When kids are encouraged to accept or glorify mediocrity as a gesture of loyalty to the group, or when their misbehavior is tolerated or even (mind-bogglingly) reinforced by parental neglect or misdirected hostility toward the authority facet of the school, or when they are given the message that they really aren’t worth much or that their own efforts are less significant than factors outside themselves, it’s no surprise if that kid gives his attention to mindless fun and self-indulgent wanderings, or becomes prone to blaming others for his misfortunes and to looking to others to prop him up. Again, the racial tip is incidental, not reliably correlated in my experience.

In a pinch, I’d give my nod to 2) and 3), the kid’s own determination to grow and fulfill some potential in himself that he believes is real. This can compensate even for lame-ass parenting and the stupid insults, social barriers and underestimations that some groups, such as “black” males, have had to endure for so very long. But other people’s bullshit doesn’t have to take the form of a prison, or an anchor. My best pride is in those kids I’ve known who had all those strikes against them, including being marginalized and held down by the ugly events of history, but who stubbornly refused to internalize them.

How the power of this belief in one’s own value and the decisions that stem from it can be missed or brushed off is beyond me.

Posted by Kuya on May 4, 2006 at 1:20 AM

tina

No wonder our prisons are growing ?!?!?

This aspect is so encompasing (and already covered in these comments )
that it is obvious you don’t want to REALLY understand….

However let’s address the last comment from Kuya

The ” Power of this belief in ones own value ” is not something you are born with ...
IT IS NOT IN YOUR GENES
the support that you recieve is :
The amount of attention your Parents,Teachers, Extended Family,Mentors,Professors & others can give you
/
(Divided By - for those of us who had a Math book )

your circumstance ( Priveage,Wealth, Inheratance, whatever )

Kyua said ” When kids are encouraged to accept or glorify mediocrity as a gesture of loyalty to the group .......”

It’s not just kids -

“People love mediocrity ”  Miles Davis

Posted by R.B.Green on May 4, 2006 at 2:32 AM

Tina1
I don’t have a reasonable response to your comment that would make any difference to you or anyone reading this posting. I don’t want to call you some terrible name or demean you for your lack of intelligence or concern for anyone but you self and your mythical cousin. That person can’t be real and actually teach in a school. I just don’t beleive we have gotten that far out of synch with humanity. I beleive that your cousin is just a mechanism you use to spew hatred on the world through a proxy because you don’t have the courage to hate on your own.

I wish you peace from the life of hatred that must consume you daily. To blame poor children for the problems in our schools is a new low in human response. You need prayer and moral assistance not a rational response.
Baraka

Posted by Baraka on May 4, 2006 at 7:27 AM

Thank you Kuya
Your comments are interesting, informative and considerate, I can’t thank you enough for bringing such careful humanity to this extended conversation. I agree with your comments and observations and will resist the temptation to elaborate on something already well said. Within this context I can’t ignore the notion that how schools work is as much social engineering as it is cognitive support. Children, as we all, are designed by birth to learn. When they fail it is more a function of educational failure or the misfit of inappropriate design or practice. Every child can learn and wants to learn, its a natural imperative of human beings and beyond procration it is the strongest urge. That schools fail or apply their vigor to brainwashing is a function of the industrial needs of the society. How to obey authority, don’t ask questions and embrace a life of isolation and lonliness that supports impotence and subservience are the qualities that are needed in the industrial workplace and promoted .

With all that there is much to be admired in the schools that provide an open door to those that are cursed with being born in a poor family.

Again, thank you Kuya for your sobering and encouraging comments.

Posted by Baraka on May 4, 2006 at 10:24 AM

the gangsta culture problem is real. I have taught bright young black men who simply disregard the option of positive values because black masculinity for a subclass has become what rap says it is.

Another problem which affects all youth of modest means:  lack of after school and summer activities.  Kids simply don’t know what options are out there.  Poor black kids, regardless of the curriculum don’t know what multicultural is; indeed they have no idea of any “white” culture, American or European.  To them, all Asians are the same.  Where’s anything on the map?  Forget it.  US history, black, white, Jewish, Southern, immigrant, forget it.  We need fun after school and summmer programs that are culturally and ethnically integrated that provide a real multlcultural experience.  Teaching only Black History Month, Richard Wright, and MLK are not multicultural.

Posted by knocko on May 4, 2006 at 12:00 PM

Baraka -

<blockquote>I totally agree with your analysis and the conclusion of the results of the Johnson war on poverty but that the white bigots in the South who ran the Senate and the House of Representatives crafted that legislation. That

Posted by scorp on May 4, 2006 at 8:08 PM

Scoop:

I am impressed with the data retrieval and the associated analysis.

The Democrats that Johnson held sway over came from the traditional Democratic party that ran the south since reconstruction and then became republicans in rebellion to the civil rights movement as a way to break the northern Democratic influence. They felt Yankee democrats who had the money and power of the northeast legislative block were using them. Most of the new Republicans were from agricultural districts with little or no national influence or money. But they learned to sell their legislative responsibilities to the oligarchs and by doing so found untold wealth - the whores.

I need to look carefully at your last posting, which is filled with useful information (if correct) to respond with the clarity you deserve. No matter what the issues that most concerned me are not resolvable along party lines with either white Republicans or white Democrats as heroes or villains. To quote Rudyard Kipling: Rosy O’Grady and the Cornels Lady are sisters under the skirt. I don’t know how I could see value in an overtly racist Ronald Reagan or a spineless John Kerry for that matter. As far as supporting the republicans a party that would put up for office that immoral and vacuous president that now sits in Washington can not mean either me or the country any good. he is an embarrassment and a fraud - like Kerry a C student from Yale.

The Republican Party belongs, lock stock and barrel to corporate America whose only credo is greed, not that the Democrats are any better. I am a populist who is trying to recover my country from the special interest oligarchs. 

I want you to know that I appreciate the effort you made to look carefully at my assertion and even search for the relevant information. I don

Posted by Baraka on May 4, 2006 at 9:45 PM

Baraka -

The data on the Civil Rights Act 1964 vote is from the Wikipedia entry of the same name.  Wikipedia listed a total of 102 Senators for the voting, and I corrected that to agree with the totals after the 1964 election.  The data on the composition of the Congress after the 1964 elections is also from Wikipedia, and can be found by accessing Senate Election 1964 and House Election 1964.

The Democrats that Johnson held sway over came from the traditional Democratic party that ran the south since reconstruction and then became republicans in rebellion to the civil rights movement as a way to break the northern Democratic influence.

Since a Republican (Dirksen, IL) drafted the original Civil Rights legislation, and a greater percentage of Republicans voted for Civil Rights than Democrats, does it make sense that a bunch of bigoted rednecks suddenly became Republicans “in rebellion to the civil rights movement as a way to break the northern Democratic influence”? 

I.  Don’t.  Think.  So.  There is something else going on here.  First, segregation was morally untenable in the perceptions of our evolving culture.  Besides the Democrat-Republican divide, there was a sharp racial divide between the Old South and the rest of the nation, and this divide also split across Party lines.  But the American people are remarkably observant of laws (at least compared to the rest of the world), and the 1964 laws granted civil and economic rights; most people got on board, and racial relations are much more relaxed now than they were back then. 

Is there anything else that Johnson and the Democrats did that affected voters’ attitiudes and opinions to change the electoral picture?  Well, yes, as a matter of fact. 

The Welfare portion of the Great Society cost $6.6 trillion dollars and utterly destroyed many Black families.  That is NOT a good cost-benefit ratio. 

Kennedy/Johnson/McNamara started a war they had no intention of winning and had no idea how to fight, and pissed away 58,000 American lives (not to mention a couple of million Vietnamese), and accomplished absolutely nothing; the South Vietnamese were turned over to the communist North by the majority Democratic Congress that refused to support freedom and democracy after the withdrawal of American forces.  And there are still Democrats who are proud of having destroyed freedom and democracy in Vietnam; you can hear them yammering daily about Iraq, where we have made remarkable progress in one of the totalitarian cess-pools of the world.

If Ronald Reagan was “overtly racist”, you must surely be able to point out something overtly racist that he said or did.  Now, President Johnson WAS overtly racist; he specifically targeted poor Blacks to be beneficiaries/victims in the War on Poverty.  Johnson thought he was being benign, even supportive, but this was one of the most socially and culturally destructive episodes in American history.  If the Civil War released Blacks from slavery, the War on Poverty bound Blacks in dependency and hopelessness.  You have already made that criticizm in slightly different, and more eloquent,  words.

Continued ....

Posted by scorp on May 5, 2006 at 11:20 AM

The Republican Party belongs, lock stock and barrel to corporate America whose only credo is greed, not that the Democrats are any better.

So, who IS better?  Populists generally degenerate into socialists, who always degenerate into inefficiency and corruption on a massive scale.  And if corporate America owns the USA, how come there are record and increasing numbers of home owners, including Black home owners?

If you study this long enough, you will find that socialists/populists destroy wealth, and free market capitalists under a rule of law create wealth.  The wealth may not not be distributed equitably, much less equally, under capitalism, but wealth does increase in a free market environment, and everybody benefits; people who get a better education and work harder and smarter generally benefit more. 

But under socialism wealth is destroyed; the Soviet Union collapsed from corruption and inefficiency, and Old Europe is in a fifteen-year funk of socialist bureaucracy and stagnation.  If the Democrats succeed in winning the Presidency and the Congress, as they did in Johnson’s time, you will see higher taxes, economic stagnation, limited freedom and democracy, and weird and unaccountalble and costly social and cultural experiments.  I only say this based on past experience and current Democratic policy statements, such as they are.

Posted by scorp on May 5, 2006 at 11:21 AM

The Republican Party belongs, lock stock and barrel to corporate America whose only credo is greed, not that the Democrats are any better.

Posted by scorp on May 5, 2006 at 11:24 AM

Scorp
We have wandered far and wide and now we are both making unsupported comments about our favorite view of past events. I don’t have the time or energy to continue this debate nor the interest to do the research.

There are flaws in both the Democratic Party and the Republican Party and the motives of white people are suspect based on their behavior. To say that I should admire or embrace white republicans over white democrats because of their political beliefs is ridiculous. And I know that the harm done to black families was not a purely democratic invention. Republican efforts to reduce health care for children and support corporate interests in a profit driven health system is not defensible at any level but I

Posted by Baraka on May 5, 2006 at 1:23 PM

scorp,

One strain of historiography I think you are missing in your endeavor to paint the Democratic Party as the exclusive villian for all the ills of the recent past is that Johnson’s War on Poverty as it was originally envisioned was decimated by Nixon’s only partial administration of it.  All those demeaning and disempowering welfare programs, such as food stamps, Sec. 8 housing and so on, that you allude to were fully extended by Nixon because they served as subsidies to his Republican base.  Those that sought to help lift the poor, such as job training, community action centers, Head Start, etc. were eliminated or evicerated.  AFDC, which actually dates back to Roosevelt, had those characteristics that tend to break up families, precisely because of threats of Republican filibusters on the grounds of ‘only the deserving poor’, ‘aid for widows and orphans, not for men capable of work’ and the like. 

It is true that Establishment Liberal Democratic politicians were eager to make these concessions against the arguments of Progressives and Populists who have never held a majority even in the Democratic Party, much less the government as a whole.  What victories they have had, have come from the unassailable moral superiority of their arguments as well as the momentum of mass movements, never from the barrel of establishment political power.  It might be telling that the errors of Lenin and the consequent brutality of Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot may have happened because they held unapposed state power.  The success of socialist governments in Sweden and post-Franco Spain cannot be easily dismissed with the hand-waving and gross generalizations you employ.  Modern Western European mixed economies may not have the growth rates you seem to think are necessary for human satisfaction, but they are generally more stable and relatively more egalitarian than the US.  Also defined by a more developed ethical sensibility.

In education, you want to put all blame for the decline at the feet of the teacher’s unions, without understanding that curricular and funding decisions lie with local boards and state governments who have been increasingly Conservative since the 70’s.  It is movements like the Tax-Payers Revolt, that began here in California with Prop. 13, that have reduced educational funding, and ‘3Rs’ and ‘back to basics’ education that have led to the disappearance of music, art, theatre and other culturally enriching and individually empowering programs.  It is mis-guided ideas like Reagan’s ‘elimination of waste fraud and abuse’ as a means of reducing government expenditures, that have actually served to make government more expensive by adding layers of inefficient bureaucracy, driving education costs into administration and out of the classroom.

You seem very eager to reduce all politics to the false either/or of capitalism vs. socialism, but reality is much more complex.  Indeed, the unprecedented material success of modern US society owes much to the synthesis of socialist and capitalist ideals in the neo-liberal program of pragmatic realism that characterized much of the progressive advances of the 20th Century.  It is certainly true that neo-liberalism has out-grown much of its utility, and, in its current expression in international trade, has proven counter-productive and terribly destructive of civil society in the third world countries where it has been put into practice.  It seems to me, that the current Conservative agenda is seeking to dismantle that success and return to the laissez faire horrors of the 19th Century.  This appears to be not in the interests of capitalism, at least as it was originally spelled out by Adam Smith, but much more to the benefit of the increasingly dominant forces of chrematistic and merchantilist international institutional investment banking and global corporatism     .

This seems to me to be an interesting expression of Karl Marx’s admonitions about the reactionary false consciousness of the petit bourgeousie and their willingness to be manipulated by the traditional oligarchy against the imaginary threat represented by democratic social regulation of production and capital property, culminating in monopolism.

I would think that a new synthesis is called for.  It should, with what we know today, be generated more easily by a spirit of mutual consideration and principled debate than unyielding ideological opposition.

What do you think?

Posted by luminous beauty on May 6, 2006 at 10:44 AM

Oy vey.

You do understand, don’t you, that you attempt to encourage the impossible?

Which reminds me of a joke (possibly your own) I read on this site several months ago:

Rene Descartes walks into a bistro in Paris and stands at the counter, contemplating the clockwork precision of the universe.  The proprietor asks him if he wants a beer, and Descartes replies, “I think not.”

And promptly disappears.

These days, the dominant political wisdom can best be described as cogito non, ergo sum conservitus.

Posted by Major Major on May 6, 2006 at 11:34 AM

MM,

It may very well be impossible, particularly for ideologically frozen minds like tiny one’s.  I think only highly unlikely, though.  With enough patience and by planting enough seeds, even the smallest likelihood will come to eventual fruition.

Encouragement is always encouraging, however, even if only for the practise.  I’ve been getting back to Bohm’s ideas of dialogue and consensus building lately, of which Baraka’s posts are refreshingly fulsome.  It’s more fun and more challenging and more imaginative than merely butting heads.

Posted by luminous beauty on May 6, 2006 at 11:54 AM

I don’t share your optimism for converting the fascists and the conservatives.  Conversion is a religious experience.  More accurately, it’s a psychological process which requires a catastrophic event to shake loose the ideological foundations which support it, and the eventual end result is usually the reconstruction of another, equally misleading ideological framework, like liberalism, or socialism.  People need to believe in something.  Otherwise, we would continue to destroy one another indefinitely.

Oh, wait.  We’re doing that already, aren’t we?

I imagine that people like tina or scorp were once liberals, but their faith in liberalism was destroyed by some catastrophic event, such as the drug overdose of a son or daughter, or survival from the Vietnam war.

By that definition, all of us are former liberals, searching for someone to blame for events which none of us could control.

Posted by Major Major on May 6, 2006 at 4:24 PM

Loony Booty -

As always, I think you are educated beyond your intelligence.  You know many big words, and can use them correctly in more-or-less coherent English sentences, but you cannot think your way out of wet tissue paper, much less out of your confining leftist ideology.  You are like a medium-sized fish confined in a very small metal tank, and you can’t see what is going on six inches beyond your tank wall, much less get out of your self-imposed environment and participate in the world. 

All those demeaning and disempowering welfare programs, such as food stamps, Sec. 8 housing and so on, that you allude to were fully extended by Nixon because they served as subsidies to his Republican base.

Ver-ry in-ter-es-ting, as the little German used to say.  I was not aware that Nixon’s “Republican base” was recipient of food stamps and Section 8 Housing, or that Nixon wanted to demean and disempower his supporters.  Perhaps you are eligible for a Section 8; you ought to look into it. 

Now, I know what you meant to say, but I fail to see how food and housing is necessarily more profitable than, say, education and child care.  So if you could give us a reference for your weird assertion, I would be ever so grateful. 

Those that sought to help lift the poor, such as job training, community action centers, Head Start, etc. were eliminated or evicerated.

Well, they were not eliminated, because they all are still active.  And I can find no reference to any such programs being eviscerated by Nixon, but I’ll take your word for it.  After all, the dreaded Donald Rumsfeld was head of OEO during part of the Nixon Administration. 

All of which is irrelevant, and trivializes the important things being discussed.

President Johnson initiated the Great Society Programs, some of which had historical antecedents in the New Deal.  Right or wrong?

Did President Nixon contribute in any way to the origin of the Great Society programs? 

Welfare, as a part of the Great Society programs, cost $6.6 trillion over a thirty-year period.  Right or wrong?

Did President Nixon add to or delete from the cost of Welfare?  How much?  How was this done? 

The major impractical effect of Welfare was to destroy poor, mostly Black,  families by insisting that poor, mostly Black, males make themselves scarce around their partners and children.  Right or wrong?

D.P. Moynihan, a non-ideologue Democrat, warned in 1965 that we should preserve the Black family, but Moynihan was criticized at the time and ignored for the next thirty years.  Right or wrong?

President Clinton, dumb as a turnip about most things, recognized that :

1)  Welfare was costing a great deal of money;

2)  The net effect of Welfare was unrelentingly, catastrophically, negative. 

Right or wrong?

President Clinton, with the assistance of Democrats and Republicans in Congress, therefore eliminated Welfare “as we know it”.  Right or wrong?

Did President Nixon contribute in any way to the demise of the Great Society programs? 

If you have any germane or mitigating comments, they are welcome.  Out of respect to your other readers, you might try to avoid your usual idiotic obfuscation of what are, after all, important matters.

Continued ...

Posted by scorp on May 6, 2006 at 7:39 PM

The success of socialist governments in Sweden and post-Franco Spain cannot be easily dismissed with the hand-waving and gross generalizations you employ.

If you insist.  In 1970, Sweden was number five on the OECD Prosperity Index (Per Cap GDP).  In 2003, Sweden had fallen to number fourteen on the Index, and Spain was number twenty.  So, if things are going so well, why are they getting worse? 

And do you know who is hot?  Ireland and Estonia.  Both of them consciously decided to eliminate socialist bureaucracy and free up their economies, and they are off like rockets.  As are China and India, who also dropped the socialist anchors that had restricted their economies.

I am all in favor of music, art, and theater in our schools.  I am not in favor of constantly escalating costs and constantly declining performance among our students.  This is the same disaster we saw thirty years ago with Welfare, when we pissed away Black family values. 

We cannot piss away a couple of generations of students while you leftists discover that you had it wrong millions of wasted lives and trillions of wasted dollars later.  I can just see President Patrick Kennedy in 2026 standing up and saying that education costs too much, and that the net effect of education was unrelentingly, catastrophically, negative, and that he will change education “as we know it”.

I would think that a new synthesis is called for.

That would be as in thesis-antithesis-synthesis, I’m sure.  But don’t you realize that disastrous Marxist thought led directly to disastrous Marxist economics?  No, I don’t suppose that you do.  You will always be stuck in your safe little ideological tank, blind, ignorant, and self-satisfied.  Enjoy.

Posted by scorp on May 6, 2006 at 7:41 PM

Wow!  Quick response.

Classic case of overcompensation.

Posted by Major Major on May 6, 2006 at 7:54 PM

MM,

“I am neither a pessimist nor an optimist, weighing the evidence more or less as it comes. Thus I do not see the glass as half full or half empty, but rather twice the required size.”

My aim isn’t for conversion, so much as conversation.  To some degree, conflict and competing ideas are necessary to focus, clarify and distill one’s own thinking.  After all, if everything was just peachy-keen all the time, life would be just too tedious to bear.  There would be no art, no humor, no human progress if there were no obstacles to be overcome.  For this I am genuinely grateful for scorpy wolfgang and J. Cline, even tiny one, noisome, screechy and mono-maniacal as she may be. 

They must recognise, if only sub-consciously, that they wouldn’t be here, trying to shout down those imaginary constructions of liberals and socialists and so on, which they have been so skillfully conditioned to oppose, if there wasn’t some unshakable shadow of doubt and dissatisfaction in their own minds for the externally engendered absolutist belief in insuperable rational self-interest they espouse.  Other-wise they could blissfully lose themselves in the unmitigated chorus of the like-minded at FreeRepublic, FrontPage, The Corner, Michelle Malkin or some other right wing blog dedicated to the unreflective ecstatic triumphalism of the half-witted. 

You are correct that the dissolution of false belief generally occurs in the sudden realization brought about by contrary and traumatic experience.  However, the likelihood that the individual will relapse into some other reformulation of false belief when such a momentary threatening situation passes is reduced by preparing the ground through steady and regular effort to lessen, loosen and relax that characteristic of our self-nature that feels it must cling to something or it will surely die.  On the surface, it is somewhat paradoxical that we can only accomplish this for ourselves by genuinely and selflessly encouraging others to do so.

This isn’t to say that you or I need always and in every case renounce the liberating pleasures of rank sarcasm.

Posted by luminous beauty on May 6, 2006 at 8:16 PM

scorpy,

“That would be as in thesis-antithesis-synthesis, I

Posted by luminous beauty on May 6, 2006 at 8:42 PM

“After all, the dreaded Donald Rumsfeld was head of OEO during part of the Nixon Administration.”

Need I say more?

Posted by luminous beauty on May 6, 2006 at 8:45 PM

Loony Booty -

That would be the original thinking of Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel , not Karl Marx.

Well, no, as a matter of fact.  Don’t you read your own references?

<blockquote>However, Hegel used this classification only once, and he attributed the terminology to Immanuel Kant. The terminology was largely developed earlier by Fichte the neo-Kantian. It was spread by Friedrich Moritz Chalyb

Posted by scorp on May 6, 2006 at 9:31 PM

Loony Booty -

OK, I made a quick pass on David Bohm.  He was a brilliant physicist all his life, flirted with left-wing politics when he was younger, and worked with TAS in his later years.  I presume you are primarily interested in his work with TAS.

You might also be interested in Julian Jaynes’ The Origin of Consciousness and the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind, a stimulating read on the way thought might have developed from pre-history to the present.

Posted by scorp on May 6, 2006 at 10:04 PM

scorpy,

If you’d actually read Hegel, not to mention Kant, Marx, Schopenhauer, Nietzche, et al., or even Francis Fukuyama. You might have a clue how hilariously ignorant your cut-and-paste critique is.

I read ‘“Bicameral Mind” years ago.  Somewhat interesting from a phenomenological perspective.  Jaynes influence has deservedly faded since, primarily due to advances in neurophysics.  A real flash in the pan, but the speculative basis for some good creepy SF novels.

A much better popular book on consciousness is “Zen and the Brain” by James H. Austin

Posted by luminous beauty on May 6, 2006 at 10:38 PM

American slavery is, by definition, the violent imposition of white authority over black slaves.  In a male-dominated society, characterized by the imposition of male authority over females, any threat to the authority of males is a threat to their masculinity.  Hence, male slaves were especially oppressed because they represented a threat to white masculinity.  This pattern of white male dominance has afflicted the black community since the era of American slavery through the post-bellum period of Reconstruction to the present.  The overwhelming majority of black males are forced by circumstance to submit to the supervision of white males, from their initial socialization in school through to their conflicted inclusion among the employed.  As such, black males are expected to suppress their natural masculinity in order to submit to white male authority.  It’s no wonder that so many of them are chronically unemployed and incarcerated, or that so many of them drop out of school, and society in general.

We can blame the victims all we want, but the real solution to the “black male crisis” is, in fact, the elimination of white male dominance, of racism and sexism.

Posted by Major Major on May 7, 2006 at 8:12 AM

<i>...the real solution to the

Posted by luminous beauty on May 7, 2006 at 9:17 AM

There is something phenomenal about this exchange on the future of young black men. There have been so many insightful, considerate and provocative entries that I have found this discussion incredibly informative. But I want to take note of the contribution of Scorp.

He/She has time and time and time again responded from the viscera of white American society, narrowly and immaturely focused through the lens of white privilege and the distorted lens of the reality of right-wing political truthiness (Neocon orthodoxy) . Fascist at it core and driven by greed and a small and biased intelligence this person has goaded us into looking deeper into the issues that stand as the bulwark of a white racist society.

I want to thank those who have taken the time to intelligently and morally and even good-naturedly responded to the spew of well-written hatred cleverly disguised as discourse.

Without his continuing bating this conversation might have taken a different turn but don

Posted by Baraka on May 7, 2006 at 10:25 AM

Loony Booty -

Vanity, vanity, all is vanity.

Bicameral Mind was certainly not definitive, but it does raise some as yet unanswered questions.  Why does the Bible include the contemplative thought of Ecclesiastes, juxtaposed with the rantings of the minor prophets (Jaynes’ example), next to blood-curdling savagery?  Is the Bible one message, or two, or many?

Why do leftists look with favor on the contemplative thought of Marx, and ignore the universal blood-curdling disasters that have resulted from Marxist thought?  Why did leftists rant against those who objected to and fought against Marxist totalitarianism?  Why have the the leftists become supportive of murdering Muslim Jihadists against those who fight the Jihadist’s terrorism, just as they supported the Soviet Union against those who fought leftist totalitarianism?  Leftists send many conflicting messages, precisely because they are conflicted.

Rational people resolve conflict, and grow; thesis-antithesis-synthesis, if you will, or must.  Leftist are still fighting the same battles from the early twentieth century, only the names of the cast of characters have changed; the same dotty leftist professors, the same impressionable sophomores reading Hegel and Marx, the same squalid intrigues in support of dubious, and long-since discredited, political theories.

Cesar Chavez has recently popped up in Venezuela, practicing and preaching the same oppressive, manipulative totalitarianism of Hitler and Stalin.  Jimmeh Carter observed the Venezuelan vote and pronounced it clean, despite all evidence to the contrary.  If there is any bright spot in this at all, it is that Chavez is so inept that he will ruin the Venezuelan economy, maybe before too many people are jailed or killed. 

Meanwhile, we continue to destroy the terrorists, refine the Republic and public virtue,  and tolerate the philosophers until they become too oppressive.

So, enjoy your philosophy, but do not screw with me.  I do not have to put up with it, and I will not put up with it.

Posted by scorp on May 7, 2006 at 11:00 AM

SayHey, Baraka,

I chanced upon this recent essay by Joe Bageant , one of those rare self-reflective white crackers who have managed to transcend the narrow confines of their cultural surround.  Just felt I had to share.  It supplies a certain context in light of scorpy’s middle-management clone-like obsession with ‘free’ market capitalist mythology, and his big fish in a small tank projection.

“Revenge Of The Mutt People” is also relevant to the issue at hand.

I’m hearing Dylan’s “Only A Pawn In Their Game” playing in my mind.

Posted by luminous beauty on May 7, 2006 at 11:11 AM

So, enjoy your philosophy, but do not screw with me.  I do not have to put up with it, and I will not put up with it.

But scorpy, screwing with you is so much fun.  I really don’t see what you can do about it except maybe walk away.

What profit hath a man for all his labors in which he toils under the sun.  One generation passes away and another generation comes, but the earth abides forever.

The sun also rises.

Viva Chavez!

Posted by luminous beauty on May 7, 2006 at 11:40 AM

Loony Booty -

So, enjoy your philosophy, but do not screw with me.  I do not have to put up with it, and I will not put up with it.

But scorpy, screwing with you is so much fun.  I really don’t see what you can do about it except maybe walk away.

Well, no.  You are not screwing with me, you are screwing around in your little ideological tank.  Che screwed around with me, Saddam screwed around with me, the Mullahs are starting to screw around with me.  Are you awake enough to see the difference?

Posted by scorp on May 7, 2006 at 12:58 PM

Please tell me, scorpy,

What does the horizon look like there in Flatland?

Posted by luminous beauty on May 7, 2006 at 1:16 PM

Loony Booty -

Where is Flatland?  Is it anywhere near the socialist utopia that is always promised, but never exists?  Like, FREE BEER TOMORROW?

Back to your tank.

Posted by scorp on May 7, 2006 at 2:14 PM

Evidently, any reference to the elimination of white male dominance is enough to threaten the masculinity of the dominated white males among us.  This, after all, is the significance of the redneck backlash which Nixon, Reagan and the Bush klan have so assiduously exploited for the last forty years.  Nixon’s Southern Strategy was tailored to capitalize on the Southern white male resentment which resulted from the passage of the Civil Rights Act.  Reagan continued the clandestine assault on civil rights by attacking welfare, which, incidentally, benefitted both black and white recipients, despite the pejorative connotations which Republicans were quick to ascribe to blacks (“welfare queens”).  Bush Senior constantly criticized the increase in crime across the country, and particularly the increase in black rates of crime (Willie Horton), at a time when crime rates across the board, due to the aging of the boomers, were dropping like a rock.  And, of course, there’s Junior, the redneck leader of the red states, who obtained his office over the disenfranchised voters of Florida and Ohio, and fiddled while the floods overwhelmed the city of New Orleans.

Posted by Major Major on May 7, 2006 at 3:37 PM

Does Scorp deserve a reply?
It’s like scratching a scab.

Scorpy says: “Rational people resolve conflict, and grow;....” but we know these people who under the disquise of rational rhetoric and they are terribly flawed.

Rather: Rational people are best in dealing in slaves. He (Scorpy) want us to believe that industrial capitalism is in some way altruistic and right minded rather than driven by greed and self interest. I know them for what they are and they resolve conflict through murder and mayhem and then they move on, it is their way. Is he willing to say that socialism or socialist motives fueled the 200 years of the international slave trade that built this country? Jim Crow was and is the dominant modality of white America both Democratic and Republican. Doesn’t he get it - its about being a white racist not the party one is affiliated with. Capitalism is in some ways above racism, driven by greed and self interest it will use the total resources of the society for its own purposes investing the public resources for its own private benefit. Even the water we drink has been degraded to promote the sale of privately produced water in bottles.

Smaller government promoted by the current conservative orthodoxy is revealed in the government

Posted by Baraka on May 7, 2006 at 3:51 PM

scorpy,

Every time I think you have reached the nadir of ignorance, you find an even lower level into which to sink.

I don’t believe in utopias, socialist or otherwise, just making the best of a bad situation.

I only drink free beer.  You’d be surprized how often that happens when one is just being open and friendly. 

Is there anything else about me of which you’d like to make an unfounded assumption? 

Feel free to consider yourself a winner.  No one else will.

Posted by luminous beauty on May 7, 2006 at 4:45 PM

Hello Baraka,
I thank you for your response to my post way above, as usual it takes me forever to check back in, such that my replies might come off as non sequiters.

It’s not that I can’t understand why African Americans would have a visceral hesitation to trust us palefaces, considering the extraordinary amount and duration of shit your race has had to put up with from mine.

(By the way, I look forward to the day when that particular paradigm, that humans being divided into “racial” groups, wears out, may I live to see that day!)

However, here and now, since we all continue reeling from the insanities of the past and the consequent bitterness of the present, I would like to read your response to my wish that I, for one, want to be regarded as simply a man, rather than being a representative for the “white” “race”. Perhaps you can relate to this, having been (perhaps) harmed by categorical thinking geared toward breaking you down..? Preferring instead to be evaluated for your own actions, your own attributes, your own words and deeds? (you can see my silly efforts to help erode the paradigm with my punctuation and rhetoric)

I’ve already been lambasted several times on this site for bringing this up, as though to propose a paradigm of human connectedness was a way to avoid acknowledging the evils of race that are so numerous they’d fill an encyclopedia. That isn’t the case, but people do react with venom or condescension so rapidly, especially when they assume that my agenda is to brush crimes under the rug. Fortunately, I don’t get too worked up at the implied insult to my intelligence. People do get stuck in habits of thought, after all, and perhaps for very valid reasons from their own experiences.

You have loved and trusted individual “whites”, or so I gather from your words above. I infer from that that you have found some of “us” trustworthy and lovable. I ask that you keep ahold of that rememberance, in hopes that at the individual level (which is the level we each have the most potency within, i.e. our own speech and actions) the arguably justifiable distrust for “white” people as a category can be dampened just a bit by recalling those remembered individuals.

I had a student about 15 or 16 years ago who told me that “black men aren’t allowed to be individuals”, i.e. because they were forever getting typed. A sad and disturbing thing to have heard. So you might see why I would call into question the thinking that drove what he had experienced.

It’s a damn big mountain I’m trying to dig away at, and all I have is this little spoon. I would be highly interested to read your response.

Posted by Kuya on May 8, 2006 at 12:37 AM

Like the lyric says, what’s so funny ‘bout peace, love and understanding?

Posted by Kuya on May 8, 2006 at 1:02 AM

Hello Kuya
Thank you for your generous posting. My ongoing conversation with Scorp helped me understand how satisfying anger is. It has a really visceral impact on the psyche. I just wallow in the meanness and violence of disagreeing with him/her forgetting to treat this person with respect and consideration. Then you come along and remind me that we are all in this together, everyone who responded to this issue of young black men being marginalized.

That conversation led me into the dark anger of racism and bigotry that was part and parcel of his reality

Posted by Baraka on May 8, 2006 at 9:32 AM

Tina1
I don

Posted by tina1 on May 8, 2006 at 5:02 PM

tina 1 neo-cons are doing what you claim the demos are doing. You hate as much or more when you don’t agree with the demos. People who live in class houses should not throw the first delusional rock.

Posted by brian28 on May 8, 2006 at 6:20 PM

Thanks for the response, Baraka.

“All in it together,” no doubt about that! I’m still pretty focused on promoting the idea of dealing with people as individuals and holding them to account more on the basis of their personal statements and actions, rather than as racial representatives. Can’t think of a single positive contribution to human betterment that has stemmed from the race schema. And though at first blush that individual focus might seem like a paradoxical statement coming right after the “in it together” point, I think in fact they’re more complimentary sentiments than is the case if skin-tone identity groupings get the primary emphasis (or class identities, for that matter).

Shine on, cousin.

Posted by Kuya on May 9, 2006 at 12:12 AM

tina 1

ONE

You said
” First of all, I never blamed poor children “

But before that YOU said
” Your (Baraka) reply is exactly why our schools are screwed up. You blame it on the teacher not the student “

uh huh

TWO

You Said
” I love how you Libs always throw out the word ” Hate ’” when someone doesn’t agree with you… “

By definition
Liberal -adj.- not narrow in mind : Broad-minded : an outlook marked by tolerance…”

Libs did not invent the word ” Hate ” nor did Libs ” throw out the word “
Intolerance is the instigator.

THREE

” You don’t like what happened to my cousin so you come up with this idea that I just made it up. They call that ’ delusion ’ ...”

My spouse is an educator for 10 years. I do presentations in Science/ Physics every semester. I have seen several senarios similar to your story - it’s not that rare. The only delusion is that it’s the students fault. Some people should not teach without the empathy and compassion necessary to give their students the best possible chance to succeed.
Good luck to your cousin - hopefully her outlook is not yours

Posted by R.B.Green on May 9, 2006 at 10:37 AM

Deep endemic problems are never solved with surface solutions. Salim Muwakkil has highlighted much of the frustration of contradictions beyond the capacity of those mired within it, to change.

The old principle about not judging someone till you’ve walked a mile in his shoes, ought certainly to apply to the ivory tower experts, or arm chair critics, who condescendingly bandy about “surface solutions” and blanket condemnations.

Getting behind the eyeballs of someone else is not something you can do without abandoning your lofty “outsider” objectivity, and sinking deep into the angst and subjectivity of his pain and “real world” difficulties.

http://www.geocities.com/interracialnation/bws.html

Posted by rs2405 on May 9, 2006 at 1:48 PM

Whether it is the pain of the personal insult or act of denial or the systemic affront of a racist society its all the same. When it is personal I deal with it on a personal level and when it is the government or an institutional agency or private enterprise I deal with it on that level. Because i use the phrase white people as a collective pronoun it is intended to bring to the general public the consiratorial nature of prejudice in which indivdiual whites reflect the common bigotry out of a sense of being a part of the common view or bias. This notion that current white are innocent because the didn’t personally lynch some black man is rubbish they stand on the shoulders of those who developed systemic and bigotry through fear and abuse. White privilege is the child of slavery and jim crow, one dead the other dying,

Posted by Baraka on May 10, 2006 at 6:30 AM

Baraka -

Scorp on the other hand is like Geo Bush born on third bas he declares that he must have hit a triple.

Close, but not quite.  I was born in a farmhouse on a dusty unpaved crossroads in Oklahoma.  My dad died when I was eight, and I worked my way through college, earning a technical degree and a graduate business degree.  Do you have any more bright ideas about how privileged I was?  Or maybe my situation really is privileged from your standpoint, but could you just knock off the exaggerations about third base?  I would be ever so grateful.  Or not, it doesn’t make any difference. 

You and I share a concern for the status of Black men and Black education in particular.  I certainly see this as one of the greater problems facing the Republic, and a limit to what we can achieve as a nation and what I can achieve as an individual.  When all people are healthy, productive, and engaged, I am better off.  But I will admit to sometimes being overwhelmed by the problems.  You and I do not share a reaction to the conditions described in this article, nor do we agree on a solution to these problems. 

The NEA and the AFT are partisan constituents of the leftist Democratic Party, and are more concerned with their members’ power and privileges (there’s that word again) than with educating mere children.  Consequently, education is a catastrophe in this country, and has been for thirty years, ever since the teachers became politicized. 

Because I have ideas on how to solve the country’s problems, and you do not share my ideas, you have pinned the racial tale on this honky. 

But this discussion has clarified my thinking on some ideas that have bothered me for a long time.  Every time I get in a discussion with a bunch of leftists, the subject of “class” comes up.  Loony Booty has an inordinate fondness for Marx and his musings on class, and class conflict.  I have never understood this.  I am vaguely aware that class is an important topic to leftists and some other people, but it has little meaning to me, and the idea of classes of people certainly carries no emotional load for me.  So I look at earnest strivers like Loony Booty with a mixture of amusement, bemusement, incomprehension, and awe; what the hell is going on in these people’s minds?  Nothing important, I’m sure, but they waste a hell of a lot of time and energy on inconsequentia.

Now you speak viscerally of hatred, which appears to be related to your perceptions of (my) class.  Disregarding class as a factor, hatred eats your stomach.  Hatred is based on emotion, and loosed emotions degrade rational thought and actions.  Your emotions are tied directly to your perceptions of class, race, and politics, and they are consuming you. 

As luck would have it, Shelby Steele has recently published s book, book White Guilt : How Blacks and Whites Together Destroyed the Promise of the Civil Rights Era.  TCS has a book review by drhelen.  Mr. Steele explores the poisonous relationship between Black rage and White guilt.  For the record, I have little feeling of guilt, which may be one reason why you have such a negative gut reaction toward me.  Anger and guilt are self-destructive, and I try not to indulge.  I can understand your rage, but there are better, more rewarding, and more productive ways to spend your life

Posted by scorp on May 10, 2006 at 7:22 PM

Dear Scorp
My characterization of you was not unfair, it was a response to the quatlity and tone of your comments which held the victim guilty and saw the episode through the eyes of a political point of view. That point of view, no matter how much good you meant to portray, held the voice of the privileged oligarchy who I associate as the cause of the problems that young black men and all marginaized people. And this is not a political identification because wealthy democrats have participated in this culture of greed cloaked in industrailism.

Shelby Steel also found solace in blaming the vicitim and his divorce from the natural rejection of injustice that is the mother and father of black rage is nothing less that sociopathic. I haven’t read the book and I haven’t even seen it reviewed but I’ll give a look. The book should have been titled “White Indifference” then it woulld not be another tome on his apology for white behavior.

Right wing conservative politicians have done more to promote inequality and bigotry over the last the last 150 years of Jim Crow (before it was part and parcel of what it meant to be a White American). Greed is the American way of life, a virus that tends to infect us all.

Hatred is a powerful emotion that serves to entice the viscera and once I give in to it I say stupid things and act less humane. I’m not proud of it and I’m trying not to blindly hate anyone, but from time to time I fail and when I do I ask forgiveness.

I am getting to know more about you and you about me and your two dimension self is becoming more robust and sensitive. We could have started at this level by starting at inquiry rather that assumption - that’s the Socratic way. But you began by trying to get my attention with the republican banner of insult and abuse - well you got it. 1 percent of the American population owns 99 percent of the wealth and wants more. That’s the GOP ethic, white or black. Ah America, 45 percent have no health insurace, 27 percent are living in poverty and the oligarchs, republican and democratic, black and white are at fault. Forget about the abstraction of “Class” if you can’t handle it, besides its a wealthy man’s word used to identify their “specialness” and privilege.

My best to you Scorp, may goodness and mercy follow you all the days of your life.

Posted by Baraka on May 11, 2006 at 7:10 AM

Dear Baraka -

Thank you for the comments.  Let’s pick it up again on another thread.

Posted by scorp on May 13, 2006 at 4:49 PM

The increasingly chronic problems of black men and boys can be directly and explicitly traced to several historical causes:

1)The 1970s Feminist/Womens Liberation movement and the subsequent distortion of gender roles and gender rules (i.e. gay lifestyle)

2)The failure of the black middle class to chart a course since they are supposed to be so educated.  (Sadly, Mr. Salim seems to be part of this since he bemoans the endangerment of black men instead of doing something about it since he is a black man himself.  Or is he?)

3)The failure of black school teachers, since the public school system does indeed have its fair share of blacks in positions of authority.  In fact, the majority staff at most public schools in black communities is predominantly black staff.

4)Black women have done nothing to create a better future for her own sons.  Instead, black women continue to breed more babies, at a younger age, (teen moms), by different men (baby daddies), without ever being married, or knowing who the real father his (DNA test).

5)The failure of the Million Man March leadership to chart a course TEN YEARS AFTER THAT MARCH WAS FIRST HELD IN 1995!!!!

The website blacktown.net has been addressing these issues since 1998.  And it is a damn shame that more whites refer and discuss blacktown.net rather than the black so-called journalists whom the website is intended to inform. (You listening Salim?) 

As a black man, I am insulted that this discussion and debate is being held as if black mens fate is being determined by someone other than him; and that he has no say so in the matter whatsoever.  Salims integrity as both a black man and a professional reporter is now under scrutiny!!!

We black men have always been fighters and survivors and winners; and it would be nice if Salim wrote about this, instead of preaching the black mans funeral while he is still alive!!!

First, Bill Cosbys hypocrisy was exposed.
Then Morgan Freemans idiotic comments.
Hey, Salim, wake up!!

Posted by blacktown on May 14, 2006 at 9:50 PM

Well I believe Blacktown has it right as to the contributing factors, which we are all grateful for. He has put a fine point on the issues that most black men realize and regret, painfully. Unfortunately, as it too often happens, after his identification of the cause he regrets to say what the solution should be. Establishing blame is not hard to do and there is so much to go around. Unfortunately he doesn’t offer a solution.

As a black man I don’t need anymore accusations I want a solution and I would rather have a conversation with my brothers on the solution rather than a harangue on the guilty ones. every one is guilty including Blacktown. Now we want him to engage the conversation in the search for a solution. None of us can do it alone so we need to collaborate and talk with one another about our various approaches without bitterness and anger.

We’re all guilty!

And we’re capable of solving it once we stop calling each other names and begin contributing to the solution.

Posted by Baraka on May 14, 2006 at 10:17 PM

The solution is rather simple: Black men simply need to go into a huddle and form a men

Posted by blacktown on May 15, 2006 at 5:39 AM

No Amens for you blacktown

Seperate is not equal

Please refer to
” How War Began ” by Keith Otterbein
for a better understanding of how Nations formed

Problems like this don’t “get solved” , esp. by “treehouses”
Gangs build “treehouses” all day Yo

The color of my skin is still a subset of me being human and I have to live with that ... We all MUST….

Posted by R.B.Green on May 15, 2006 at 12:13 PM

Ah Blacktown,
I know you see yyour suggestions as wise and interesting to you but they are the ravings of a young undeveloped man who can not plan beyond a few feet or seconds and can only react to things without a sense of the consequences. It is this level of thought that keeps children from being punished for act that an adult would surely pay dearly for.

I would suggest reading any number of books but I know that it is of little value to a mindset which is incapable of incorprating consequences. In one generation of his suggestion we would have few sane male members in our community and cerainly no women.

You can’t get an Amen from anyone above the developmental age of 21 or so. By then the frontal lobe is working fully and consequences are incorporated into efforts. We put aside the ways of children and accept our responsibilities as adults.

However, blacktown is part of the conversation if only a cautionary voice. We all need to talk about young black men so we can better understand what is happening to them. Soon all the children will act this way the Young black men are just the first. Soon all the rest wil follow. It is this society which is destroying us by getting to our children first.

I believe it is the consequence of industrialism and we need to talk about what is happening before we jump up and run off in ten different directions. We are in crisis, the oligarchs who live off greed are eating our children.

When gangs and Bling and drugs are a satifactory alternative to anything then we are all in trouble…. big time.

Posted by Baraka on May 15, 2006 at 1:29 PM

Hey Baraka, first you criticized me then you agreed with my analysis (as a cautionary note)  that there is a crisis with black youth that is growing alarmingly.

But the youth themselves have sounded the alarm in the form of gangster rap music.  Yet, everyone pretends that they dont understand what the rappers are screaming about.

They are screaming about the fact that:
1)They had no father to show them the ropes and lessons of life.

2)They may have been born a crack baby, and thus, they truly are mentally retarded and incapable of speaking socalled standard English.

3)If they were born a crack baby, then their mother was indeed a chicken head bimbo.  However, there is just as much violence towards males as there is towards females in gangster rap music.  Rappers keep it real by calling everyone bad names!!!!

4)They are screaming because they are fighting for their lives in a dog eat dog world.  HENCE THE POPULAR PHRASE: HOLLA.

HOLLA IF YOU HEAR ME!

IN FACT, HOLLA AMEN!!!

Posted by blacktown on May 15, 2006 at 4:17 PM

This is my last response Blacktown
It is impossible not to see that there is a crisis with young black men but it is not what you are raving about nor do you seem to have a handle onwhat the problem is or how to deal with it. Everyone who responded to this list understood that there was a problem but your diagnosis and solution made no sense at all.

And I don’t kow how to reason with your comments or responses.

Sorry .

Posted by Baraka on May 15, 2006 at 5:23 PM

What is there to reason with???

I pointed out all the direct causes of the problems of black men and boys when I mentioned how the Women’s Liberation movement distorted gender roles and sought to empower women at the expense of the importance of cultivating manhood.

For millions of years, boys learned about manhood from men.  And women had no problem with it because without men she did not eat.

But nowadays, the very concept of a boy seeking to become a man is politically incorrect.  The wicked lesbian Feminists have mislabeled and mischaracterized manhood as so-called male chauvinism.  Men have become nothing but sperm donors and baby daddies and child support providers.  Recent history proves this.  And any man who cannot see this conspiracy is himself proof and validation of its very existence.

Yet, in times of war, all of a sudden men are expected to man up and become valiant heroes.  Or…when a woman needs her flat tire fixed, or some other mechanical problem solved, then all of a sudden males are supposed to run into a phone booth to go from being a male-bashed wimp and a wuss and become superman.

The double standards of gender must be exposed.  And this too, is a job for superman.

AMEN!

Posted by blacktown on May 15, 2006 at 6:23 PM

Hello all.  Let me start out by admitting that I haven’t read the bulk of this thread—a few jabs back and forth between “Scorp,” “Major Major” and “Baraka” were enough for me—so I apologize if someone has already addressed what I’m about to bring up.  That said, I now enter the shitstorm.

Rather than reducing the racial inequality that undeniably characterizes modern American society to an aggregation of individual choices—that is, viewing a supposed unwillingness to work among black men as the product of the welfare state—we should acknowlege structural economic change as a factor that limits individual agency.  Many of the jobs that began to open to black men in the early post-WWII era began to be eliminated well before the Great Society and the creation of the modern welfare state.  Welfare did not singlehandedly create the “culture of poverty” that supposedly keeps black men from entering the mainstream economy. 

That said, we should look at how exactly many blacks did make real economic gains over the last fifty years, and why this trend seems to be leveling off or reversing today.  Rather than explaining it all here (Not that I necessarily could in a meaningful way), I suggest looking at an excellent article titled “The New African-American Inequality” from the June 2005 volume of the Journal of American History (will Scorp denounce this as a pinko-“dimocrat” rag? I don’t know…)

The authors argue that “Public employment has been the principal source of black mobility, especially for women, and one of the most important mechanisms reducing black poverty…Its erosion in recent decades is a primary force undermining black economic progress.”  Whether or not welfare has been “good” or “bad,” it is still some form of government spending—and the demonized bureaucracy that conservatives claim to oppose—that has largely fueled black economic progress. 

Without declaring blacks the “canaries of industrial capitalism,” can we maybe admit that those taxes that Scorp claims were were ruining black peoples’ desire to work were also having some positive effects?  Social change is a gradual process, but it can’t follow its painfully slow course if we eliminate the very factors pushing it along.

Rant over.  Good day.

Posted by quarternine on May 16, 2006 at 12:22 AM

Indeed, the black middle class was created simply as a direct result of the civil rights protests during the turbulent and militant 1960s.

American government felt totally obligated to the blacks because, after having defeated Hitler, America’s blatant hypocrisy was exposed as a result of the invention of television.

Part of Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.’s protest strategy was indeed to capture the violent protests on television and film for posterity.  THUS, AMERICA’S HYPOCRISY WAS SHOWN ALL OVER THE WORLD.

The ultimate and inevitable consequence was the opening of the flood gates of jobs and opportunities for primarily blacks.  Then women came along as a result of the Women’s Rights movement.

Now the real problem is that blacks are under the impression that they achieved their middle class status as a result of hard work.  And Malcolm X realized that this was a damn myth when several handcuffed Black Muslims were shot in Los Angeles by police.  Thus Malcolm X realized that just because you were clean cut, well dressed, and well mannered, this was no magic recipe for whites to bestow any jobs, respect or anything else.

So, now idiot Bill Cosby is now snubbing poor black people because Mr. Cosby is under the impression that if they just worked hard, stopped rapping, and began speaking proper English, all of a sudden whites would bestow their benevolence upon blacks and we’d all live happily ever after.

The black middle class are some of the sickest and laziest people I know. Thank God we know how they got that way.  It”s no wonder some people want to abolish affirmative action.

The black middle class have failed to realize that after Pharaoh let his slaves go, he then changed his mind, assembled his army, and sought to destroy them.

Thus, the black middle class better invent a plan b real soon!!!!

Posted by blacktown on May 16, 2006 at 4:38 AM

Welcome to the conversation Quarternine
That wasn’t a big rant at all, in fact it made several good points that everyone should consider. This problem with Young Black Men is so big that there is room for a number (many) points of view and yours is equally valid.

I want to bring to your attention that you don’t need to denigrate another’s point of view in order to mount your own. Both might be right or true with absolutely no conflict. Certainly what you say has the ring of truth but like all the comments being made none are absolute and comprehensive. This is a conversation, a dialogue, which incorporates a broad range of views even the bigoted and fearful. The misogynist rant of blacktown is painful to read but to deny that such views exist in the human community is foolish. He reveals himself for who he is and that in itself is an education.

This is too big a problem to exclude anyone who is willing to bring their mind and heart to the problem. Some will be excluded from forming a solution because of their marginal qualities but all should be heard. That’s what makes community

Posted by Baraka on May 16, 2006 at 9:39 AM

How dare you call me a misogynist simply because I have exposed the four decade old assault on the institution of manhood by lesbian Feminists.  You are naive, to say the least.

Everyone is fighting back to avoid being marginalized in this society:

The homosexuals, lesbians, bisexuals and transgendered people….
The handicapped people…
The enviromentalists with their various crusades such as no smoking areas, and crusades against SUV trucks….
EVEN PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT LEGAL AMERICAN CITIZENS SUCH AS MEXICANS ARE STANDING UP AND FIGHTING…..AMEN???

YET, YOU SEEK TO CRITICIZE AND MOCK THE EFFORTS OF A STRONG BLACK MAN LIKE MYSELF WHO IS DETERMINED NOT TO BE DISRESPECTED….

Posted by blacktown on May 16, 2006 at 3:52 PM

Black Man Found Guilty In White ‘Grandma’ Attack
http://www.nbc4.com/news/9199699/detail.html

This is on video, like Rodney King, but we never heard about this on CNN.  A black man attacked and beat a white 83 year old white lady. 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Indictments Handed Up in Las Vegas MGM Beating Case
http://www.klastv.com/Global/story.asp?S=4855177&nav=menu102_2

This is also on video, a gang of blacks attacking a white man, beating him bad.  The national media also stayed away from this story.

PS - AND YOU WONDER WHY WHITE PEOPLE DON’T LIKE NIGGERS !!!!

Posted by tina1 on May 16, 2006 at 11:04 PM

Well, I will admit that I am embarrassed whenever I see black men or black boys do something stupid.

Yes, I could go into the historical reasons why whites have always sought to keep black boys from becoming strong intelligent men….BUT I WON’T GO THERE!!!

WHITES HAVE A LONG LEGACY OF DESTRUCTION….BUT NOT JUST AGAINST PEOPLE OF COLOR…BUT ALSO AGAINST WHITES THEMSELVES!!!

I will instead blame black religious and political leaders for not seeing the need to cultivate black boys into strong and mature and responsible citizens SO WHITE RACISTS WON’T HAVE ANYTHING TO BRAG ABOUT LIKE YOU ARE DOING WITH THOSE VIDEOS!!!

Posted by blacktown on May 17, 2006 at 6:09 AM

Hello all…this is a subject that is bounced around from time to time , the solutions also have been well documented and when applied do work. Scholars such as the late Prof. Amos N. Wilson, Na’im Akbar, Ph.D., Iyanla Vanzant and most recently Dr. Joy Degruy Leary have written effectively ; the major problem as I see things is that the individuals most directly effected don,t have access to this info or that it ‘s too little too late, so basically you are always in a ” playing catch-up ” situation ....On another subject ; i am new to this forum & can appreciate differing opinions but this ” tina 1 “, why bother ,do you like yourself ; really their is help for your problem…your lack of any mature asessment and the use of the ni—er word only points to your own septic underdeveloped mental deficiencies….Redhorse

Posted by Redhorse on May 21, 2006 at 5:10 AM

Here are a few reasons why this article goes in the ‘SillyStack’.
-the whole Conservatives as racists thing is so played out, Democrats have a former Ku Klux Klan member sitting in the senate.
-Bush, while not verified competent, has appointed more blacks to high offices than any other president, Name one high level minority on John Kerry’s staff.
-Whether or not you like it, the president is the final say on what is and is not classified. This has always been the case.
-No one complained about Michael Steele, a black man who had his personal credit records made public by Democrat senator, Chuck Schumer, but there is much whining about the domestic eavesdropping, which is an extension of the FISA act, which has been invoked by every president in office since its inception.
The education has begun; it is up to you to continue it.
You are welcome.

Posted by Raalnan5 on May 21, 2006 at 2:05 PM

First ,Raalnan5 did you read the article , maybe you mistakenly commented in this forum but really wanted to comment somewhere else. What does anything you have stated have to do with the situation concerning black males??... Secondly ; yes mr. bush has appointed several blacks and other so called minorities to positions of authority but again how or what does that have to do with the subject being discussed…if you are responding to the article on black males in crisis your observation is indeed ...let me see… how do I say this ” MOOT “...

Posted by Redhorse on May 21, 2006 at 6:04 PM

Raalnan5
Why are you trying to defend the republican party? My quarel is not with republicans or democrats but white politician of every stripe that perpetuate the racist policies that lay at the core of American Politics.
Joe Leiberman gets supported by Hillary C. while he supports the worst president of recent times - incompetent, empty of any human values, driven by greed and the rhetoric of Christian Jihadists. Geo Bush works hard at moving the wealth of the nation from the poor to the rich than anything else. Putting our children in debt to the benefit of a corporate oligarchy; Mobil Exxon, Archer Daniels, monsanto, and the VP former firm, Haliburton among others.

Young Black Men stand as a warning at to what is being done to every one of all colors, genders and political persuasions. We are insearch of a humane society for all, even the stupid and incompetent, they most of all the empty suits occupied by stupid white men who stand as icons of competence while tearing civilization to shreds.

Geo Bush and his ilk are a credit to his kind, men of shallow ambitions and a bottomless sea of greed for a soul.

Posted by Baraka on May 21, 2006 at 9:27 PM

I was e-mailed this article to read and digest mentally from a friend. After reading some of the comments I’d like to comment. This is first a very important topic and concern that can’t be turned into a very diffucult discussion. One that we loose focus of what we are trying to accomplish by bickering &bashing;. That is what the establishment wants us to end up with. (chaos)!!!!!!! please everyone lets stay focused if we truly are concerned and would like to be a part of the solution. Now after saying that let me say that this delemma is not as easy to fix as it is to understand. That is because it was created a long time ago 400yrs. This is when our ancestors were systematically stolen from our heritage. Everyone wants to understand why we act like we don’t love or like each other. what we see on the media is controlled propaganda that the establishment want everyone to see. That we are bad, actually if you look around us every race has good and bad in it. The news media only shows what is eye catching to make you watch. not all the news is shown with the same vigor as the bad. and not all news people are this way. But there is enough of it here to make you believe we are the only race doing wrong.

Now getting back to working this out. We have to understand that our race is the only race on this planet that is seperated from our home and heritage. We know nothing about our ancestors from our original land. the place our fore fathers are from. Who do we look like? where do our genetics origin from. This is the first reason why we are the way we are. To start to fix this situation that we find ourselves in, with the new generation learning nothing substanial but what they see on tv and around them. We must take it generation after generation since the begining of the demise of our race! Actually we as african americans in this country have only had legal rights in this country for a little over a 100yrs. Then we only were able to use them safely for just 40yrs. Lest not forget our fallen at the hands of the establishment with tree and noose. With out the strength of some of our great people of the african american race we would have nothing still. That is why I say If we want to work on this delemma we must stay focused and unified when we talk about it where ever we are. understand one thing that looking around you as a african american in america our race is still unable to use our power we have in this society as a collective. They show us the statistic everyday. And they (the establishment) have figured out that we can still be lead around told what to do and believe just like our slave ancestors. they had an excuse we now don’t. We must start as adults and elders in our race to try to learn about ourselfs as far back as necessary. the information is out there if you want it. Do not let people tell you about your race go find out. READ if you can (i say that because it was against the law to learn how to read and write as a slave not to long ago) about our history in this country show our younger generation how great our race can be. once you learn about our history which still is not portrayed acurately in the few ways that it is taught in the establishments schools you will feel as free and great as i feel everyday i am able to wake up. This is what our ancestors fought and died for not to long ago! once we learn how many great people and things that have been done by us. we can then try to learn how to be a unified organized people in this country. this was M.L.Kings dream for us. we have been led astray again. the establishment knows that everything they have done to our race to keep us oppressed is working. it started with willie lynch and is still working. Read willie lynch letter (making of a slave).

Posted by scotty1 on May 24, 2006 at 4:52 PM

The existence and acknowledgement of Racism does not exclude the individual from personal responsibility.  One, ultimately, controls his/her own actions by his/her own individual choices; the duty of enlightenment remains solely the responsibility of the actor -  whether negatively impacted from a surrounding, detrimental, and proven obligatory force, such as the institution of American racism or otherwise.

The issue is simpler than the played-out semantics of democratic/republican ideology wish to conclude.

The struggle for liberation, truth, begins first with the individual determining the need for liberation.  That appears, to me, to be the central issue concerning the crisis of young Black men such as myself:  preserving and determining how, why, our lives are shaped, and developing an effective course of action from which to take.

True equality is an unachievable fallacy as result of the overwhelmingly consistent tendencies of human greed.  Neither socialism or capitalism have ever developed an effective platform for addressing this fundamental concern.

American society was/is constructed upon an amalmagam of vices.  It is our choice, as black men, white men, human beings, whether to continue to exploit those vices, or develop new patterns for existence.

Posted by ordoabchao on May 25, 2006 at 2:00 PM

You have to know what truth is before you can choose it.  Developing new patterns of existence begins with compasion and understanding and not
the notion that everyone can be enlightened if they just want to. I am ashamed that fellow americans who have SOME ancestral connection to Africa want to believe that the 94% of inner city high school youths who live in Chicago who don’t graduate can all go to college if they just pick themselves up and do it .If they are fortunate enough to graduate high school, they’re not prepared for what is to come .Is it their fault they are not computer literate?

Doesn’t anyone realize how close this kind of thinking is to the Fascist oligarchy who say that poor people are poor becaue they just “choose “to?

Don’t tell people to step up and then remove the ladder

Posted by R.B.Green on May 25, 2006 at 3:20 PM

yes this decision to strive for betterment is developed within. but with the length of time that we have not known or been able to get back to our origin we have further lost ourselves. the first correction for the african american male in america is to understand who he is where he comes from. than he will see where he should try to get to. yes we have become self absorbed with ourselves, but that is because we have learn to live and accept what we have in this country and society. if you ask any other african desecendant from another country or island they will say to you that they don’t understand why we (african americans)can’t and don’t suceed in this country! they use the same desciptive language about us that all others say about us. i argued with the first one i met. he was a jamaican i did not understand why he would say something like that about his brothren. but after my anger passed i tried to see if he made sense. this is when i adjusted my thinking and tried to come up with a knew solution. when looking back at our history we started to fall apart just when the opportunities that were fought and died for were given to us. for a lot of reasons the last 40yrs. have been wasted pretty much. although we have had some material gains for some the total sum of our existance on earth and in this country didn’t move. the only thing we are leading in is the penal system. our strength is gone. yes we now have fallen to the depths of human vice. we are capable of hideous crimes against ourselves. we learned this like all of the things we do in this country. we now must see our mistakes and get back to trying to help each other because just like before we have no more now than we had then. but we are losing our future to black on black crime. when will we learn that this is exactly what the establishment wants us to do, in the united states and in africa. they will not step in to help us. they know that if we keep going we won’t be strong enough to have to be worried about us. like i said in my other thread they know us better than we know ourselves. our good and our bad. our strengths and our weakness!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by scotty1 on May 25, 2006 at 3:56 PM

R.B. Green:

It is unfair and incorrect to assume that the crux of my response was geared towards the idea that one is poor because he chooses to be poor.  This concept is false, and is an egregious, often used tactic for displacing the blame for wrong doing unto the victim; I agree whole-heartedly.

However: personal ignorance is, and can no longer be, an excuse for the failure for our community.  While our environment may be controlled externally to our detriment, what cannot be controlled except by it’s owner, is the soul.

This is why the caged bird sings…

The personal drive one developes and maintains because of internal will can and does persevere.  There are FAR too many examples of this.  Nothing of value is attained without sacrifice.  A lack of resources, even one of such deliberate confines as that we African Americans experience here in the United States,  does not absolve one of personal responsibility for his own life.

Enlightenment begins, as others more eloquent than I in this forum and otherwise have professed, with personal discovery.  Just because we have been seperated from our past, our history by force does not conclude that advances, discovery, cannot be made, today.  Furthermore, the journey for personal discovery is one that cannot be constructed, funded from the outside.  It must recieve it’s genesis by individual determination.  One can be taught many things, but to truly learn, one must allow perspective to develope.

There are two sorts of truths, as I see it:  universal truth and personal truth.  What structure, besides that which we allow to, can determine one’s path, ultimately?  To put this another way:  poverty is a world problem; how one chooses to address his/her individual poverty determines precisely how it affects his/her life.

It is the sole responsibility of our African community in America- not the communities of Africa, Europe, or the racist power structure which oppresses us- to create change for OUR lives.  What i’m suggesting is that we are capable, regardless of the ills we face, to determine our destiny.  There is no substantial or pervading substitute for personal resolve.

Posted by ordoabchao on May 25, 2006 at 5:39 PM

I must also suggest that the ills of Black men & Black women are intertwined.  Any discussion of one without the other is an excercise in futility, pointlessness.  The key to our rise, our independence, is an honest reflection upon that which we face;  not an isolation of our problems.  We must view the whole, and not simply the particles which comprise us.

Posted by ordoabchao on May 25, 2006 at 5:44 PM

Nay , it is EVERYONES responsibility for the type of transformation we seek to take place, not just people who have darker skin than others.The ills of humanity are ” intertwined ” and to isolate our problems as unique is to view the ” particles ” and not the whole,

Again it’s ” ...how one chooses to address his/her individual poverty ....”
Talk about the caged bird

Posted by R.B.Green on May 26, 2006 at 11:24 AM

What’s up my brotha blacktown ; so much of what you say is true about the black so-called middle class…my one point of difference is that I do not agree that they are lazy ; lucky maybe but lazy no !!! The problem with that luck is they give credit for their success too the power elite ...Bill Cosby doesn’t know how he got to were he is…that’s why he talks that nonsense…Buckfush and his posse are pimps ; their money is their money and your money is their money , the middle class in general don’ t know it / don’ t want to know it !!! We live in a republic not a democracy…

Posted by Redhorse on May 26, 2006 at 1:21 PM

Blacktown…just visited your web-site…loved the graphics…but my brother ; we have got too talk , I’m out the door now…gotta go play them bills…but I will address this subject this afternoon…until then…PEACE…

Posted by Redhorse on May 30, 2006 at 4:49 AM

Blacktown…there is so much truth in what you have to say on your web-site…very well put together…First ; the 60’s black liberation movement was not brought down by black women or black men…two factors cause the destruction of that revolutionary movement , one COINTELPRO…two snitches…plain and simple , the 60’s revolution was a military defeat for afrikan people…sad…so very…very sad…but factually true…that is the price of war… sometimes you win…sometimes you do not…Do not read me wrong on this now…those brothers & sisters were courageous beyond belief but in the end there was no way too succeed…out gunned…out numbered…and too many punkout snitches…this is why Huey Newton title his autobiograghy ” Revolutionary Suicide “...I heard a discussion by a former Black Panther Party member ; the chapter he belonged to had approximately 22 maybe 30 members at most ; there headquarters was raided by the police and all were arrested…Subsequently after the fact the Party sued the Gov’t for damages incurred…of 22 arrested ; 6 could not bring civil cases against the Gov’t ...BECAUSE THEY WERE WORKING FOR THE GOV’T AS PAYED SNITCHES…6 OUT OF 22, ALMOST 1/3 OF THE MEMBERSHIP….that is or was the basic problem…next

Posted by Redhorse on May 30, 2006 at 3:53 PM

Blacktown…you have too many different causes going on…as I see it you would do better to concentrate on the Fascist Military Industial Complex that is western society…leave all that other stuff alone…you are only alienating possible alias for the long haul that IS community building…all this rhetoric about dominating women is piosonous to the over all objective…that is revolutinary mistake 101…you are trying to liberate black folks not reenslave them under a new oppressive pedagogy…Paulo Freire…Franz Fanon talked about this extensively… calm the rhetoric…you may get followers but that’s all…just followers…Finally Progressive Revolutionary Liberation Philosophy must…Trust the people…Listen too the people…and finally and MOST important Love the people…this is the hard , hard work that is peace…were CREATION LIVES and cowards fear too go…May your efforts be eternally BLESSED…your brother in peace…Redhorse

Posted by Redhorse on May 30, 2006 at 4:31 PM

Hey, Yo’ thanks for all your comments.
I wish some of you would email me…because I want to determine just how much my incoming email is filtered, spied upon, and deleted even before I see it.

Yes, blacktown.net remains under surveillance by the new COINTEL PROGRAM.  However, we are only trying and striving to become strong men.  And thus, it is ashamed that whites (and Negroes, plus Feminists) think that strong and intelligent black men are a threat to national security. LOL!!!

Nevertheless, the word must spread about the growing men,s movement.

Black men must stop looking at porn.  It is Feminist witchcraft to keep you in a hypnotic Feminist trance.  Black women have done nothing with their 40 years of freedom but cultivate their sexuality.  Hence, their numerous baby daddys!!!!!

Women had their social movement but now it is black men,s time and turn.  Who would deny this?!?

No one can deny all the historical facts and proof that we present about the damage that Feminism has done.  We have presented speeches, rap songs, videos.  WHAT MORE DO YOU NEED???

No, we are not afraid of scrutinizing and then criticizing black women for her failure to ‘chart a course’ for the black race in the 21st century.  Just remember that the Feminists started the so-called gender war and male bashing by declaring that men were nothing but male chauvinist pigs and sperm donors.

...AND WE WOULD BE LESS THAN MEN IF WE DID NOT RESPOND ACCORDINGLY!!!!

TAKE A STAND BLACK MAN!!!!

Posted by blacktown on May 31, 2006 at 2:22 AM

First many thanks and blessings to you and yours….Blacktown…but I must disagree…I am at a loss at how your organization can find fault with women and essentially blame them for problems that effect use all…I may not agree with the so-called feminist agenda…but I much more disagree with your tactic of blame…the consequences of that kind of rhetoric are extremely dangerous ....just look at mainstream amerikan social values as they stand now….plus I would be cautious in attempting to limit any individuals right to examine alternatives to the existing situation… does the feminists agenda always make sense to me ...of course not…it’s not suppose to that’s why it’s called Feminism…plus to lump what the blackwomen is fighting for into some loss agenda led by white women is incorrect ; you seem to imply that black women do not have a mind of their own ; again I can’t buy that thinkology ( I do not like or date sisters with blond hair ; just can’t relate too them ; a former girlfriend who is a hairstylist came home with that mess on her head, I was able to convince her that it was not attractive) but if gilfriend wants her hair ” dog piss yellow “....that is her business, a woman is going to change that hair no matter what you say, brother , it’s a female think and has very little to do with conciousness or spirituality , from the times of anicient egypt till now , point ; it is not my right or responsibility too make her change…plus HOW ARE YOU GOING TO HAVE A CHURCH OR MINISTRY WERE WOMEN ARE HELD IN LOW REGARD…THE BLACK WOMAN IS THE CREATIONS MOST PERFECT BEING, SHE IS ” GOD ” ON EARTH IN THE PHYSICAL, GAVE BIRTH TOO ALL OF HUMANITY…you seem to have lost track of this fact ; even the science of DNA has proven this point ...Again I believe a rethinking of your agenda is in order…much peace and blessings….

Posted by Redhorse on May 31, 2006 at 4:25 AM

1)  Women had their movement for their so-called rights.

2)  Black men are now justified to have their own exclusive movement to address their social problems

3)  Once upon a time, in rural society, all religious orders were for men only, because this is where men learned about God and the Universe.  The Shaolin Temple in China is the last remaining institution for men only.

4)  Women have not started one movement in forty years.  They got the idea of the Million Woman March from us.

5)  The gangster rap generation (Tupac, Biggie, etc.) are the boys who were born during the so-called Feminist sexual revolution.  These boys had no fathers, and its evident in their music.

6)  Why is war and the battle field the only place men can exclude themselves from women???? THIS IS A GLARING DOUBLE STANDARD!!!  Women dont complain when men go off to fight in wars!!!

It is a damn shame that black men don,t realize the damage that Feminism has done, yet, white men have numerous websites devoted to exposing the double standards of gender, both socially and in the legal system.  (Learn how welfare created the black welfare queen/baby daddy lifestyle.)

QUESTION: Why are black women getting on the Maury Poorbitch show and declaring that they don,t know who their numerous baby daddy is???

When will you and others realize the danger and damage that Feminism has done to black society; yet white women are denouncing Feminism and GOING BACK HOME TO BE SOCCER MOMS?!?!?

Posted by blacktown on May 31, 2006 at 6:15 AM

Sadly, black women are responsible for 100% of the social problems in the black community.  And tomorrow, it will be 110%!!

She has been at the drivers seat of authority for many well documented years; yet, she does not have a damn clue of what to do to lead the black race. 

She has joined the white Feminist conspiracy to destroy black men and boys; YET, WHITE FEMINIST WOMEN ARE SEEKING BLACK MEN BECAUSE THAT IS THE MOST “LIBERATED” THING A WHITE FEMINIST CAN DO TO SPITE WHITE MEN!!!

WHITE WOMEN LOVE SHOWING UP AT A SOCIAL OCCASION WITH A WELL DRESSED BLACK MAN.  SHE WILL FEED HIM GRAPES RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE BLACK WOMAN’S FACE TO MAKE HER JEALOUS AND TO SCREAM, ’ I TOOK YOUR MAN BIITCH’ !!!!

The black woman is a total back seat driver and second guesses everything the black man says and does instead of inspiring him to achieve glory for his race.

And the only reason many black men don’t like to hear this IS BECAUSE HE IS STILL A WOMAN AND SISSY HIMSELF!!!  THUS, HE IS INSULTED MORE THAN THE BLACK WOMAN IS.  (Many black women are slowly admiting their faults.  Iroincally, most females admit that they would prefer a male boss or supervisor instead of a female!!)

For 400 well documented years in America, the black man has been the white mans woman and sissy-slave.  Yet, now that he has an opportunity, HE STILL IS NOT SEEKING TO DO ANYTHING TO AVENGE HIS ANCESTORS!!! 

INSTEAD, HE IS A BIG MAMA’S BOY AND A MOCKERY OF WHAT GOD MEANT WHEN HE MADE A BLACK MAN!!!

IT TIME FOR THE MEN’S MOVEMENT….
ITS TIME TO SEPERATE THE MEN FROM THE BOYS….
...FROM THE MAMAS BOYS!!!!!!!!!!

Posted by blacktown on May 31, 2006 at 4:57 PM

Blacktown…They are several scenarios that come to mind when I read your response…one ; you are immature and do not know any better…two ; your own mother was not there for you , and you have not forgiven her….three ; you just don’t listen well or take any advice , ego…four ; you are severely mentally imbalanced…five ; you are a woman hating homosexual in denial…and six ; now this is the interesting one , because your outlandish comments in the face of reasonably exchanges point to this conclusion ; and that is that Blacktown.net is a cover for some version of a 21st century COINTELPRO / SYOPS type agenda…now I don’t know which of these it is , or the combination there of…..but you have some problems with yourself…and need some help…I am not surprized that many blackmen have rejected your offer to stand-up…the way you twist and spin I’d swear you and scorp are like the two sides of a dollar ; green back & black back….Assuming that you are not some kind of COINTELPRO / SYOPS type deal ( man… if it walks & squaks it’s gotta be a duck ) , ...GROW-UP….YOU ARE WAY OUT OF BOUNDS !!!.....................
Suggested reading anything by Prof. Na’ im Akbar , Ph. D…..Peace…..

Posted by Redhorse on May 31, 2006 at 7:11 PM

Earlier today, I wrote a long message in response to Mr. Redhorse, but for some reason my eloborate and detailed message did not register and is thus, gone forever.

Posted by blacktown on Jun 1, 2006 at 4:24 PM

Blacktown….My brother…could you be more specific….abc??? You could try again , it’s happened a couple times to me also…

Posted by Redhorse on Jun 1, 2006 at 4:32 PM

In summary:

1)  I had a strong black father and my mother loved him.

2)  When I was a boy, I played in the dirt like a boys is supposed to do, unlike todays mamas boys who are only expected to get through life impressing people by the way they dress and nothing else.  When a boys plays in the dirt, he grows up to build skyscrapers THAT EMERGE OUT OF THE SAME DIRT HE ONCE PLAYED IN!! AMEN!!!

3)  Unlike other black authors, who are only trying to sell their books, blacktown.net HAS NEVER ASKED FOR ONE PENNY!!! AND WE ARE PROUD OF THIS.  WE ARE NOT A BOOK, WE ARE A SOCIAL MOVEMENT FOR BLACK MEN!!! AMEN!!!

4)  Because I had a strong black super father, I had lots of toys that my friends did not have.  And this began my journey to find out what was wrong with them: THEY DID NOT HAVE FATHERS; AND SOME ONLY GOT THEIR TOYS OUT OF CEREAL BOXES!!!

5)  Blacktown.net is the only black movement that is AVOWEDLY HETEROSEXUAL!!! WE DECLARE, NO SISSIES ALLOWED!!! NOW, YOU TELL ME WHO ELSE CAN MAKE SUCH A BOLD CLAIM????

6)  You cannot deny the mountain of evidence we have accumulated that proves the danger and damage that Feminism has done.  I suggest you listen to all of our rap-songs, speeches and interviews.

Posted by blacktown on Jun 1, 2006 at 6:08 PM

I had the streets waiting.
Like a drought, my niggaz be patient.
My daughter was recently born & I took a brief hiatus.
Then Ty died, and I fell into a deep oasis

Posted by Mdot on Jun 7, 2006 at 8:21 AM

I went from catchin’ cases to buyin’ cases of Don flyin’ places
From metal bracelets, to diamond bracelets
From ghetto pavements, to hideways ways with
my own private acre,
I’m movin’ up like the Jeffersons
Drivin’ spaceships, like the Jetsons,
My mic conception is deep
Like my conception, my life was tested, numerous times
Like Judas defied the ruler

Posted by Mdot on Jun 7, 2006 at 9:54 AM

There’s a lot of crap, but a few pearls, in this thread.

So I figure I’ll add my two cents.

Over the last decade, I’ve spent a good deal of time working with Black male ‘at risk’ youth and exoffenders, offering them a shot at learning computer skills and some hope of making a living, and lving a more hopeful life.

One thing I know for sure. All the simple answers are wrong. Likewise all attempts to blame it on the Democrats or Republicans, liberals or conservatives, or the schools or the music—all these are also wrong.

If you want the root of the problem, I think a good place to start is that post Civil War America refused to deliver its promise of ‘40 acres and a mule,’ along with a rifle and a ballot, to the Freedmen and Freedwomen. Therein is the post-slavery advantage ‘whites’ had had over Blacks.

Today’s problem has a number of complex causes. Start with the industrialization of agriculture in the South. It drove many Blacks from the land, who where then lured North by the promise of blue-collar jobs in an industrializing North. Even if they were paid less than whites, these were family-forming jobs.

Then comes the information revolution. We can still produce the same about of steel as before, but now we only need one third of the workers we had before. Now a huge number of those ‘family forming’ jobs are gone,  and the fathers of today’s young Black men who had them have passed on or are out of work.

Enter welfare. It was originally designed after the dole given to the widows of miners and soldiers. To be the ‘deserving poor,’ you had to be without a man who worked in the mines or died from war wounds through no fault of your own. Otherwise, you were ‘undeserving poor’ and out of the loop. As Black inner city unemployment swelled, this flawed system was expanded into AFDC and its well-known family subverting qualities.

Now young humans at a certain age begin to reproduce, and have done so for hundreds of thousands of years. This biological-social fact hasn’t changed a bit. What has changed radically is the social and economic structures that supported it.

Among these clusters of the population we are talking about, we are now engaged in the most radical experiment in human history. 

We , through design, both deliberate and inadvertent, are bringing into being an entire generation of young men without fathers. And by fathers, I don’t mean sperm planters. That’s a role that can be filled in a few minutes. By fathers, I mean nurturers and breadwinners and protectors of their young, and the key role model of their young sons.

The economic conditions of being this kind of father, the family-sustaining job, has been considerably eliminated. And when the role of father in a family is eliminated, how do young boys learn to become men? They look to the bonding of the band of slightly older young men, such as the gang, or the sports team, or the military, or some combination of all of these.  In other words, many of them never fully mature, at least in terms of the social order

Now put these kids in school. I submit that no school is equipped to deal with economic and social problems of this complexity. Some try, heroicially, and make a difference in a few lives.

Nothing I say here is meant to take away from individual responsibility. I take a ‘tough love’ stand toward the young people and ex-offenders I work with. I treat them with decency and respect, but I also challenge them and hold them accountable. Some rise to the challenge, some don’t. Sometimes it’s their fault, sometimes I wish I could have been more skilled. . A few of them are now making more money than me in the hightech economy and raising families. But a few are also back in prison.

Finally, I would submit that the structural reforms to change all this are not unknown. Rather, it’s that a majority of the country has yet to form the POLITICAL WILL to insist on a positive path forward.

Carl Davidson, Chicago

Posted by carld717 on Jun 8, 2006 at 8:57 PM

I have read most of the comments here and thought I would add my two cents. When discussing issues associated with sociology we should really refrain from trying to define solutions in political terms. Politics is the art of getting elected and nothing more. The representative government has no ability to solve the problems we discuss here. The government by nature caters to the whims of the masses and not to what is best long term for society. It is the genius of our founders in that way. We are to be free and not to be an experiment by a centralized government trying to build a better mouse trap. So looking at the problem via a liberal or conservative view is probably looking at it in a biased way and will tend to be to quick to blame and to quick to solve a solution.
It is the failure of both parties to solve this issue. The issues associated with the deterioration of the African American family have been documented and at this point can

Posted by truth on Jun 9, 2006 at 2:52 AM

Addendum:
I went to blacktown.net and it proves my points. The lack of power expressed at the site is undeniable. There is no attack from the outside on black men. There is a war going on everyday between African American men and African American women. It is for the power over the family.
I also would like to note the homophobia associated with the site. This also is a classic sign of a matriarchal society. Homosexuals have no place in a matriarchal system. Anyone being identified as anything other than hyper-masculine is considered a disgrace to the family.

Posted by truth on Jun 9, 2006 at 3:24 AM

Mr. Carl Davidson

Thank you .

Yet it is a majority of the country which will not insist on the “positive path” because It’s not in the places they live. Our human entanglement goes beyond neighborhood “culture”. The big question - can we really live together ?

Posted by R.B.Green on Jun 9, 2006 at 3:55 AM

The problem and solution is simple.  Yet, black men still don’t think like men.  He does not think they way God meant for a man to think.  Instead, 99% of black men still think like the slave he has been for hundreds of years.  Thus, he thinks just like a woman!!!

1) How many of you CAN BRAG of being raised by a strong father, and are thus, NOT A MAMAS BOY?

2) Blacktown.net is the ONLY black movement that is avowedly HETEROSEXUAL. And we make no apologies when we declare that NO SISSIES OR MAMA’S BOYS ALLOWED!!!

It is a damn shame that the homosexuals are more organized, united and “stick together” better than the heterosexuals. (no pun intended)

THUS, IT’S NO WONDER SO MANY BLACK MEN ARE BEING ACCUSED OF BEING “DOWN LOW” SISSIES!!! 

IT IS INDEED TIME TO SCRUTINIZE BLACK MEN FOR THEIR FAILURE TO BE A MAN, TAKE A STAND, AND JOIN THE BLACKTOWN HUNDRED YEAR PLAN AND PROGRAM!!! AMEN!!!

3) Obviously, we have THE BEST black website on the entire internet.  This alone should tell you something about our genius!!!

4) The Million Man March was OVER ten years ago, and yet, black men have not started ONE POLITICAL OR SOCIAL MOVEMENT…

...HE DOES NOT HAVE A CLUE OF WHAT TO DO!!!

Posted by blacktown on Jun 9, 2006 at 11:02 AM

Every other black website that I go to, that is supposed to be about addressing the social needs and issues of black men, HAVE PICTURES OF SUPPOSEDLY SEXY BLACK WOMEN ON THEIR WEBSITE!!! 

Black men do this to avoid being accused of being gay!!!!  Thus, he tries to compensate for this inadequacy by displaying pictures of semi-nude women!!!

Thus, black men remain:

1) Pussy Whipped
2) Hen Pecked
3) Mama’s Boys
4) Who cant cut the proverbial Apron String that is still attached to his mother-mommy!!!

BLACK MEN NEED TO STOP TRYING TO PLEASE BLACK WOMEN, AND INSTEAD, SEEK TO PLEASE GOD!!!

Remember that ADAM OF THE BIBLE SOUGHT TO PLEASE EVE, RATHER THAN PLEASE THE GOD WHO MADE BOTH HIM AND EVE!!!

AMEN???

JUSTBEAMAN!!!

Posted by blacktown on Jun 9, 2006 at 11:39 AM

LISTEN TO THIS RAP SONG ABOUT HOW CONFUSED THE AMERICAN BOY IS BECAUSE HE IS NOT BEING FORMALLY TAUGHT AND COACHED IN THE PRINCIPLES OF MANHOOD!!!

JUST COPY AND PASTE THE LINK BELOW.

http://blacktown.net/rap_gender_agenda.htm

Posted by blacktown on Jun 9, 2006 at 1:06 PM

I went from catchin

Posted by Mdot on Jun 9, 2006 at 2:18 PM

First, all races on Earth have hoodlums, thugs, gangsters, and organized crime.  However, the big problem with blacks is that THEY ARE NOT ORGANIZED IN ANYTHING UNLESS THE WHITE MAN IS ON THE SIDELINES COACHING AND TRAINING THEM!!! 

The biggest crisis in the black community is the single mom time bomb, and the dysfunctional children she is raising.

WHO ON THIS MESSAGEBOARD CAN BRAG ABOUT BEING RAISED BY A STRONG BLACK FATHER??!?

COPY AND PASTE THE LINK BELOW TO HEAR A SONG ABOUT HOW GANGSTER RAP IS NOTHING BUT THE CRIES OF BLACK BOYS RAISED WITHOUT FATHERS FROM TUPAC TO BIGGIE TO TREACH OF THE GROUP CALLED NAUGHTY BY NATURE…NONE OF THEM HAD STRONG FATHERS:

http://www.blacktown.net/rap_understanding_gangster.htm

Posted by blacktown on Jun 9, 2006 at 3:26 PM

WHO IN THIS CHAT ROOM CAN BRAG OF BEING RAISED BY A STRONG BLACK FATHER?????

THE BIGGEST PROBLEM IN THE BLACK COMMUNITY IS THE BASTARD MAMA’S BOY SYNDROME!!!

WHO IN THIS CHAT ROOM CAN BRAG OF BEING RAISED BY A STRONG BLACK FATHER?????

...CAT GOT YOUR TOUNGE?!?!?

Posted by blacktown on Jun 10, 2006 at 11:25 PM

blacktown:

I’m bragging about having been raised by a strong Black father,  I’m proud that I had two strong Black grandfathers and proudest that I’m keeping the tradition alive.

My 85 year old dad survived Jim Crow, the depression, WWII and raised eight kids none of whom are in jail or on drugs with six graduating college and three of his grandchildren currently in college.  Not saying our family is perfect even with the presence of strong Black men providing and nuturing but we’re out here and unless you live in an all-white area and get all your information from white media you’d realize strong Black men/fathers are not a rarity, there are plenty of us.  Thing is we are ignored, media renders us invisible by accentuating the negative.  You should give your rant a rest, you’re just playing into white medias’ campaign to paint us all as weak, lazy, irresponsible, ignorant losers.  Don’t believe the hype!

Posted by theloneous on Jun 12, 2006 at 7:18 AM

tina1—

I live in Vegas and I’ve seen all the local coverage on the MGM beating case and in no way do I condone their actions.  The national news did cover that story but they didn’t sensationalize it which seems to be the problem you’re having with it.  As for your “nigger” comment, undoubtedly due to years of inbreeding within your family, how should blacks view whites when we see shit like the King beating or the dragging of an innocent black man behind a truck full of good ole boys in Texas or a black man being sodomized with a broom stick at the hands of NYPD?

Wake the fuck up or shut the fuck up—the choice is yours.

Posted by VegasChris on Jun 12, 2006 at 6:09 PM

Tina1 and Blacktown are both provocateurs empty of any value other than to excite the lowest possible instincts in all of us including themselves.

Let me suggest an alternative. Each of us who is genuinely interested in a resolution of the difficutlies that we face as a society from any point of view you have begin a conversation with someone who has a different point of view or approach and see where it goes.

Differences matter and our differences will make us strong. Have that essential conversation with someone with the hope that it will get you to a higher level of consciousness.

It is by love that we can fully enter into that harmony with others which alone constitutes our own reality and the reality of the universe.

Posted by Baraka on Jun 12, 2006 at 10:41 PM

blacktown—

I can brag about being raised by a strong, black father as well as a strong, black grandfather and on and on.  The black women in my family were and are equally as strong.  It was my original intention to provide you with an example but upon reflection, any such example would be lost upon you.

Posted by VegasChris on Jun 12, 2006 at 11:34 PM

Baraka—

I appreciate your post and I hear you loud and clear.  Although I am quite capable of having a conversation that will get me “to a higher level of consciousness”, some folks just need the shit slapped out of them.  ;-)

Posted by VegasChris on Jun 12, 2006 at 11:39 PM

To VegasChris
I know how you feel and the desire to slap the shit out of someone comes up frequently but I hope you try to repress the impulse and keept your energy and heart on solving the problem that black men face in saving ourselves, not just as children but throughout our lives. Young clack men are not helped by slapping the shit out of racists of any stripe or gender.

That woman (Tina1) is here to remind us to keep our eyes on the prize not on the virulent white trash that has only marginal value. Use her vitriol to remind us that we are better than she can ever dream of being.

Baraka

Posted by Baraka on Jun 13, 2006 at 2:48 PM

You/we are losers and indeed lazy if we allow the negative stereotype of black men to grow and continue ADINFINITUM!

When will the wonderful men (fathers and grand-fathers) that you have mentioned rise up and emerge and declare to the world that they are not going to allow the mischaracterization of black men to continue??

How much longer are we going to blame the “white media” when the white man has given us the very internet that we are chatting on right now?!?!?!?

Blacktown.net has sought to break the stereotype of negative images of black people, yet, blacks themselves don’t realize the greatness of blacktown.net!!!  We are the best designed black website, and we are the only black website that is bold and brave enough to expose and oppose the Feminist conspiracy to replace a black agenda with a female “gender agenda”!!!

Therefore, blacks themselves are perpetuating the stereotype that they are lazy.  In fact, I wrote a book about our laziness, ten long years ago before the Internet become popular.  And sadly, recent events have shown that we are indeed a lazy people in anything that DOES NOT COME NATURALLY!!! LIKE SPORTS, SINGING, AND AND DANCING!!! SAD BUT OBVIOUSLY TRUE!!!

BLACKS ALWAYS WANT TO BE “DISCOVERED” BY WHITE PEOPLE INSTEAD OF BUILDING THEIR OWN BLACKTOWNS AND OTHER INSTITUTIONS.  THIS IS CALLED THE WIZARD OF OZ SYNDROME:  GOING TO THE WIZARD BEHIND THE CURTAIN FOR YOUR BRAINS, COURAGE, VIRTUES AND OTHER “VALIDATION”!!!

I WILL CALL BLACK PEOPLE LAZY UNTIL WE STOP GOING TO THE WIZARD FOR WHAT WE ALREADY HAVE WITHIN OURSELVES!!!!

SO, CLICK YOUR HEELS THREE TIMES AND WAKE THE FUK UP, PEOPLE!!! 

DING DONG, THE WITCH IS DEAD…DUH!  }:o(

Posted by blacktown on Jun 14, 2006 at 2:11 AM

I went from catchin

Posted by Mdot on Jun 15, 2006 at 2:45 PM