After the U.S. Senate voted last year to strip Guantánamo detainees of the right to habeas corpus, you’d think it would have dashed the hopes of the desperate prisoners that the world’s greatest deliberative body would prove their salvation. But Saifullah Paracha is apparently an eternal optimist. In March, after 18 months in Guantánamo, Paracha, 58, decided to write a letter… return to article
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Reader Comments (47)Page 1 of 1 pagesThis is extremely troubling…......................who among use is next ???.....
Posted by Redhorse on Jun 12, 2006 at 10:14 AM HORSE
Last week two brown-skinned BRITISH guys were arrested in London UK, at 4 in the morning, by NBC equipped SWAT teams, one was shot through the shoulder, lucky man, it could have been worse !
BOTH were released after a WEEK..
Fortunately for British Society, we have not YET descended quite so low as GWB’s America. BUT THEY are working on it….
Horse, my advice to you is to, somehow, get OFF the internet—which can be self-indulgent, as you know,—- and get out and about with your neighbours or WHOEVER , and register your disagreement with all this shit.
(EDIT That was VERY badly put ! I’m still ON the net, but also DO things ...)I use the Net for information, sustenance, support, but I DO get out there, too.
Every little person counts, so when I go to a local pressconference of ‘blabla’, it was 19 not 18 supporters, and when 25000 of us demonstrated in Cherbourg against the nukes, it was not 24999.
Add us all together——- Hmmmm !
Posted by frog on Jun 12, 2006 at 10:24 PM Frog…..I do agree…this .net thing is excellent for research…..........most of my time is in the streets…....basically what I see happening is a slow decline into acceptance ; people are very afraid…..propaganda….news media….................but I am personally very optimistic…...............true
Posted by Redhorse on Jun 12, 2006 at 11:36 PM I love how you “liberals” are always on the side of enemy. Why is that? Why are you “liberals” traitors? Most of you libs should be rounded up and jailed for helping the enemy. Unreal….
No wonder you libs keep losing elections.
lol….
PS - I hope you libs keep it up for the mid-term elections, that way you help us win again. lol… lmao…
Posted by tina1 on Jun 12, 2006 at 11:42 PM Tina…from what I have read of your comments…you want everybody locked up…that’s your answer for everything…................and Scorp thinks I’m a Stalinist….................’ toon…loony….......loonytoon.! ! !
AND STOP DROOL’IN ALL OVER THE WEBPAGE ; SOMEBODIES GOT TOO CLEAN THAT CRAP OFF THE PAGE…......DAMN .! !...
Posted by Redhorse on Jun 13, 2006 at 12:08 AM Did you see that Houston’s murder rate increased 23% last year. Wonder how that happened? I wonder if all of those Katrina evacuees from New Orleans had anything to do with it.
Posted by tina1 on Jun 13, 2006 at 3:26 AM Minneapolis’ went up by the same rate. Maybe it’s all of the refugees up here. All 10 or 20 of them. OR maybe the the jack-boot of oppression that we all feel pressing down on our necks has caused the most disenfranchised to fight against it in the only way they have available.
If they come for you Tina, who amoung us will shed a tear for you?
Posted by CornChip on Jun 13, 2006 at 4:08 AM Tina 1,
I have long sat by in silence reading your insane rantings. I really don’t know who or what you are but its looking worse all the time! You advocate the abrogation of both international law and US constitutional law including decisions reached by rather conservative courts over the past few years with regard to the status and treatment of detainees and then have the nerve to call everyone else a traitor. You advocate the illegal and indescent unilateral abrogation of Habeas Corpus, the core of any constitutional democracy and the sole thing that has separated tyranny from democracy for over two centuries and then have the gall to say that liberals are a threat to freedom. Many if not most of these detainees are innocent of any wrong doing yet have been denied simple due process at the hands of a red state retard who heads up the only unelected government in the free world. Gitmo has become such an embarrassment that many in the Bush Regime now want it quietly closed down! Do you not have anything better to do with your time than troll left blog sites and annoy people with your stupid neo-nazi drivel.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Jun 14, 2006 at 2:39 AM TEENY ONE
The four brits mentioned here were released . WITHOUT CHARGE.WHAT ENEMY ?
Enemy Combatant. A British Muslim: Journey to Guantanamo and Back by Moazzam Begg with Victoria Brittain.On that terrifying night in Islamabad in January 2002, normality drained from the life of Moazzam Begg, reducing him to a non-person. For the next three years he was invisible to all but his captors, his fellow internees and his interrogators, who interviewed him 300 times, never producing evidence of their terrorism accusations, never putting him on trial yet shackling and branding him as an enemy combatant, a threat to the United States.
If the words Guantanamo Bay were not so familiar we might think his was the story of a gulag in Soviet Russia. But it’s an ugly measure of our changed world that violating human rights is no longer the exclusive hallmark of barbarous regimes. It has crept into the unseen corners of George Bush’s war on terror.
One year on from the three in which he was held illegally by the American government – first at the brutal holding camp of Bagram in Afghanistan and finally inside a steel cage at Guantanamo in Cuba – Begg, a British Muslim from Birmingham, publishes his memoir today.
The book, remarkable for its lack of bitterness, coincides with increasing international pressure on the US to close Guantanamo. In Britain, politicians, judges, lawyers, human rights agencies and religious leaders have repeatedly denounced the camp for breaching the Geneva convention on the treatment of
military prisoners.
Recently, the prime minister, seeking to fend off criticism that he had not been forceful in his own condemnation, described Guantanamo as “an anomaly” which should be shut down, a rebuke so tame, his critics say, that it will hardly dent President Bush’s sensibilities.But now comes Michael Winterbottom’s ferocious docu-drama, The Road to Guantanamo, (about 3 more brits)which will do nothing to lessen the tarnished image of America abroad.“I saw the film last night,” says Begg, “and it brought back all the horrors of incarceration in that cage where I paced up and down like an animal, unable to take more than three steps either way. And, you know, watching the movie’s graphic reconstruction was more difficult than writing the book, which was sort of therapeutic.” Unlike the film, Begg’s narrative in Enemy Combatant is calm and reflective, but running through it is the underlying sorrow of a man still haunted and in shock from the nightmare that befell him.
...........
Posted by frog on Jun 14, 2006 at 10:33 AM Gitmo Commander Col. Michael Bumgarner Talks With O’Reilly
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,199439,00.html
Truth Police: Are the Prisoners at Guantanamo Bay Terrorists or Victims?
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,199706,00.html
Posted by tina1 on Jun 17, 2006 at 12:47 AM “Minneapolis’ went up by the same rate. Maybe it’s all of the refugees up here. All 10 or 20 of them. OR maybe the the jack-boot of oppression that we all feel pressing down on our necks has caused the most disenfranchised to fight against it in the only way they have available.”
Posted by CornChip on Jun 12, 2006
````````````````````````````````````````
Hey CornFlakes….
You are wrong !!!!
Minneapolis murder rate DID NOT go up the same rate as Houston last year. In fact, the murder rate in Minn, MN dropped 11% ...
Houston’s murder rate increased 23% last year.
Next time when you post something, you might want to check the facts instead of just posting BS that isn’t true.
lol….
PS - “just make it up”
lol…. lmao…
Posted by tina1 on Jun 17, 2006 at 1:06 AM What Happened To The Gangs of New Orleans?
Before Katrina, New Orleans had a murder rate 10 times worse than the U.S. average. The killers evacuated too. Tracing the criminal exodus.
On Aug. 29, 2005, New Orleans was on track to finish the year as the deadliest city in America, again.
New Orleans was a disaster site before Katrina. So far that year, 202 people had been murdered. Computer models predicted that about 107 more were going to be killed before the year was out.
http://www.time.com/time/archive/preview/0,10987,1194016,00.html
Posted by tina1 on Jun 17, 2006 at 4:20 AM Tina1
Do you believe hurricaines are the most effective crime fighters? New Orleans also had above national average rates of black homeownership. There is good and bad everywhere. Do you think the hurricaine saved people from being murdered? Most of the black residents would disagree. They form the majority of the murder victims. Your contention about the cleansing effect of the hurricaine is racist. The people who suffered most were law abiding. The criminals had less to lose.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Jun 17, 2006 at 4:47 AM Tina….stupid is as stupid does…if anyone needs to check the stupidity quota it is most definitely yourself…you quote such reliable unbiased sources as Bumbl’in Bill O’Highly….and True Police…what next The National Enquirer…I do not want to use profanity on this web-site….but the ugliness of your comments only points too the ugliness within you…the old saying comes to mind ” God don’t like ugly “...AND YOU ARE ONE UGLY MOTHER….You do not know who is commiting those crimes…and giv’in the fact that this Administration has stolen 2 elections one must question all the so-called FACTS….Bill O’Reilly…True Police…your critical analysis skills do not exist…3 prisoners commit suicide…the Guantanamo Bay Commander says it is a act of Terrorist agenda too hang yourself…12…13 year olds have been detaineed…one of the suicide victims has been held without access too an attorney sense he was 16 years of age, he was 21 when he hung himself….The CIA paid money to local Afghan operatives…whoever they pointed out , got arrested…goat herders..some kid sent to town by his family too look for work..a man who’s daughter is attractive , with the father out of the way…she becomes vulnerable…anybody….too justify this ; the lie is that all these prisoners are Dangerous…All of this so that you can have clean panties in the morning…..And if New Orleans is such a disaster site , why do all you rednecks love too go down there and shaky…shake your tits…b-tch…..........the tune of your loon is a loonytoon…and you ARE the main character….......too stupid indeed….
Posted by Redhorse on Jun 17, 2006 at 11:44 AM Minneapolis murder rate 14.1 per 100000….aggravated assaults 538.5 per 100000….3 times the national average of murders on par with LA…Twice the national average in aggravated assaults…......are you in DENIAL…...’ toon
P.S….Rapes and robberies show the same pattern….These are your FACTS…drool over them…instead of all over the web-site…...........loon…
Posted by Redhorse on Jun 17, 2006 at 12:02 PM HEY REDHORSE,
WHY ARE YOU SO ANGRY? WHY SO UNHAPPY? GET A GRIP AND RELAX OR YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE HEART ATTACK.NO NEED TO WORRY, LIBS ARE ALWAYS ANGRY, MAD AND UNHAPPY. CHECK OUT THE FACTS.
45% of all Republicans report being very happy, compared with just 30% of Democrats and 29% of independents. This finding has also been around a long time; Republicans have been happier than Democrats every year since the General Social Survey began taking its measurements in 1972. Pew surveys since 1991 also show a partisan gap on happiness; the current 16 percentage point gap is among the largest in Pew surveys, rivaled only by a 17 point gap in February 2003.
Could it be that Republicans are so much happier now because their party controls all the levers of federal power? Not likely. Since 1972, the GOP happiness edge over Democrats has ebbed and flowed in a pattern that appears unrelated to which party is in political power.
For example, Republicans had up to a 10 and 11 percentage point happiness edge over Democrats in various years of both the Carter and Clinton presidencies.
http://pewresearch.org/social/pack.php?PackID=1
PS - BE HAPPY AND ENJOY LIFE. LIFE IS TOO SHORT TO BE MAD, ANGRY AND RESENTFUL.
Posted by tina1 on Jun 18, 2006 at 1:25 AM ANGRY LIBERAL MUGSHOTS
http://michellemalkin.com/archives/003801.htm
Posted by tina1 on Jun 18, 2006 at 3:05 AM Loony Toon tina…no doubt your facts came from…. the Enquirer….no…no…no….that flimsy excuse for journalism the N.Y. Post ; trolling with michelle malkin now…what , those red state roots not good enough anymore ; but N.Y. does have a RAT problem , so you would fit in nicely…..Look dip-wit the old saying is that ” when you throw a bone into a pack of DOGS…the only one that YELPS is the one that got HIT “...I suppose I should apologize…too your husband…for that KNOT on your head…I guess he’s pretty mad he didn’t do it…but hey that’s life sometimes….As far as happy republicans…again the ol’ wisdom comes to mind ” Ignorance IS bliss “...so my IGGY ignorant one ; go bake some swastika shaped cookies so your husband won’ t slap your nero-nuckleheaded behind up and down your red state neighbor-HOOD…...................’ toon
....Like I told Scorp, all your rights and privileges came from progressive working peoples organizations ; I’m interested why you continue to troll a progressive web-site, with all the neo-con trash on the .net…could it be that they could give a rats-ass about what you “believe”...the fact that you have forgotten your history dictates that you will repeat it ...even Jerry Springer trailer trash like yourself should understand the consequences of your numb-nutted stupidity….loony
Posted by Redhorse on Jun 18, 2006 at 10:30 AM Taking a little historical depth into this study, how would you think Germans 1933- 1939 would have answered ?
Maybe NAZI Party members were a “very happy” crowd ? Great. And what scrap-heap of History did they finish up on ?
Posted by frog on Jun 19, 2006 at 1:48 AM I’m happy, every Conservative I know is happy and enjoying life and it sounds like you Liberals are angry, resentful and not that happy ... in fact, you Libs are very unhappy. I can’t imagine waking up every day and always looking at the glass half empty. Actually, you Libs don’t look at the glass half empty, you see the glass totally emply.
Sucks to be a Liberal. I almost feel sorry for you Libs ... (just kidding). I love to see you Libs angry and pissed off. lol…
Question for Liberals: How is that Supreme Court working for you? How do you like Roberts and Alito? lol…
We own the Supreme Court now. How do you like them apples???
lmao…
Posted by tina1 on Jun 19, 2006 at 3:18 AM tina1
looking at you from the outside, probably neither liberal or conservative in US terms, and not involved in your politics,
you look like a right idiot, a punk, a moral cretin , and I do hope to God that you do not have kids.
One slight consolation is that you are so fucking dumbly extreme that no way can you be a shill. Who on earth would pay good money to such an imbecile, except Bushco ? Well, maybe they would, because they are as dumb as you !
Posted by frog on Jun 19, 2006 at 5:37 AM Tina1, why do you come to post on the left blogs? Why don’t guys like you and Scorp go to the FReepers or Matt Drudge or some other site for a change? Do you love arguing? Are you paid trolls? Someone once told me that it is the case but I really don’t see the value of it for anyone. It is good to have healthy debates but that is what is going on anyhow without self-rightous morons from the far-right coming into the picture and hurling ignorant insults and name-calling. Having a discussion means being respectful as you are admonished to be in the margin to your right. If you can’t be civilized go to the right-wing sites where you will be more at home.
Posted by cabdriverinchicago on Jun 19, 2006 at 5:58 AM Cabby
I was a bit inconsistent before .SHILL demands a certain intellectual ability. We agree it’s unworthy, even evil, but there is some respect owing to a genuwine shill when they do a good job as mercenaries.
A sort of chivalric respect, perhaps. We duel.
I had not thought before of TROLLS being paid, but that one fits tina to a T. Tina is exactly the material that Unlovely states used to clear minefields with. Disposable.
Posted by frog on Jun 19, 2006 at 6:56 AM frog,CDC…The neroness of vision represented by individuals like ms.tina is a weather mill for the future…people like her point to the downfall of Amerikan civilization as we know it too be….Actually ...we should quietly just let her be…she lives in a very small universe without many options too actually be human or humane , we all know and understand that this ” I’m so happy , why are you angry ” is a denial reaction. The idea that adults can discuss relevant issues concerning world affairs…probably scares the heck out of her…especially when these ideas challenge the very pragmatic sanctions set down by the so-called fore-fathers of this nation ; and more directly her neo-con handlers….Change challenges all of use ,that’s how we grow and mature…and yes it can sometimes mean consternation…but that is how the universe works…maturity dictates that we forge ahead , even if lazy bones like little tina need too be dragged along kicking and screaming….remember she is basically a child….
Now tina as stated before Workers Movement , Civil & Human rights agendas have made amerika and the world a better place to live and work…progress is sometimes slow and patience is required…but the undeniable nature of this progress is a fact…and will continue , because that is how and what the universe thru evolution dictates. We on the left do understand the slave-like devotion folks like yourself represent. to a social order you neither belong to or will ever obtain…that’s why Facist thrives because your nero ignorance gives them hope…remember they’re world is even smaller than yours…..Now tina ;.I know that it is hard for you to conceptualize this concept but in time you will…you have no choice…your survival depends on it….
p.s…frog CDC…I do apologize for the appearance of condescendence in my comments to both of you ..I am sure you are well aware of these facts…and have faced these challenges with the strength & wisdom that life has afforded both of you gentlemen….
Posted by Redhorse on Jun 19, 2006 at 10:55 AM I also believe that the lack of any real ability at repartee…is the reason why ms.tina trolls with use…because the reality is she does not want to appear ignorant in front of her peer group… even on the .net…with us their is no ” love lost “...so it is safe , unchallenging for her…small world , small mind….......
Posted by Redhorse on Jun 19, 2006 at 11:35 AM “OR maybe the the jack-boot of oppression that we all feel pressing down on our necks “
Does anyone here think this is somehow accurate, as opposed to extreme paranoia (and perhaps extreme political dissatisfaction?)?
Is is really accurate to equate the US, which is holding 100’s of prisoners in a very controversial manner, with a system that held millions of prisoners as a form of political coercion?
Nothing wrong with hyperbola, but one should not be fooled/frightened by one’s own exaggerations. .
Posted by wolf on Jun 19, 2006 at 6:51 PM wolf…I am not sure I understand your point…looking at the statements above we did get into kicking Tina around…but hey…she makes it too easy…..
Posted by Redhorse on Jun 19, 2006 at 8:35 PM Redhorse - the point i tried to make is simply that \the US is not in danger of descending into Fascism. Use of phrases like “OR maybe the the jack-boot of oppression that we all feel pressing down on our necks “ seems a lot over the top, at least to me (i don’t know anyone who feels such a pressure).
One might argue that the anti-obscenity fines that have recently increased are objectionable. For this to be a significant concern to me it would have to be aimed not at obscenity (which i am somewhat indifferent to, although i would prefer a polite society to a coarse/rude society) but at political speech (as is the US custom, we can all speak our minds without the men in “jackboots” coming after us).
Posted by wolf on Jun 21, 2006 at 6:11 PM Hello Wolf.
Words and concepts take time to get into people’s heads and general circulation .
First off, they look like exaggerations and scaremongering, and then… become “obvious”.Very many years ago I read the Making of a Quagmire., about VietNam.
A coupla years back, the word was scoffed at as a description of the current Occupation of Iraq.Same difference.
Goebbels would have loved the TV we have today, the economic insecurity which keeps so many so busy they do not have the energy to look around, see what’s happening. The better off are busy too, as consumers.
No need to have gulags, yet , as the people are still passive. Your prisons are full already of 2.2million people, which is a world record..
Halliburton does however have a contract to build “detention camps”, I believe ?
Lord Steyn, the brit eqivalent of a Supreme Court judgehad this to sayGuantánamo Bay will forever be a historical reference point for our time. It is a stain on American justice. Only the present US administration tries to defend the utterly indefensible. Unfortunately, our prime minister is not prepared to go further than to say that Guantánamo Bay is an understandable anomaly. In its feebleness, this response to a flagrant breach of the rule of law, reminiscent of the worst actions of totalitarian states, is shaming for our country. While our government condones Guantánamo Bay, the world is perplexed about our approach to the rule of law. If the matter were within the jurisdiction of British courts, our judges would unanimously condemn it. Were our government now to condemn Guantánamo Bay, it would at last be a powerful signal to the world that Britain supports the international rule of law.
Posted by frog on Jun 21, 2006 at 7:20 PM Hi Frog - All countries have imperfections. I sadly remember over ten thousand French citizens dying of a heat wave (!!!) not so long ago - a tragedy by any reckoning (in that short time period, roughly 5 times as many French citizens died compared to the total deaths of US servicemen in Iraq over the few years), It is almost impossible to imagine such a thing happening in the modern world, but as i said, all countries are imperfect.
I note that the limits on free speech by various European countries would be scandalous in the US today, but not in Europe. Not that i am claiming superiority, we all adapt to the issues as we see fit.
Lastly, France has a serious problem with its possible loss of identity in the near future. At the rate the demographics are changing, it may be a Muslim country in my lifetime (i am in my 40’s). After watching the riots there that consumed 100’s (1000’s?) of vehicles, i hope that your nation can adapt to what is coming. As i hope the US can adapt to its own set of possible future circumstances. (Who knows, maybe global warming will make all of this moot.)
While Gitmo may be controverisal, i think it will merit nothing more than a footnote in history. At this point, i am uncertain if it will be particularly negative towards the US - it may focus more on the reasons it was established (middle age peoples given modern weapons by the US, France and most other “developed” countries?), over the detention facility itself. Only time will tell . . .
Posted by wolf on Jun 21, 2006 at 8:05 PM wolf…Man… you are missing what is right under your nose..as disfuctional as this administration is…we don’t technically have a dictator…The problem with your viewpoint as I see things is that Fascism is composed of more than an individual dictator…Fascism is also corporate control of Gov’t agencies…a centrally controlled media..and overt excessive displays of patriotism ( all these support the troop bumper stickers & flags )...many of the symptoms are very much present…and then there is GITMO ; a gulag by any other name..Also one could argue that the U.S.Military Industrial Complex ; as is… constitutes a ” collective dictatorship.”..again the catch word is Trilateralism….Corporate Control of Resources with the Governmental directives as subordinates….
What were Sen. Fritz Hollings statements about why his was ready to retire from the Senate….tired of prostituting himself week in and week out , so as too raise the 6 to 10000 dollars a day that it takes to stay in the Senate, if you miss a week the next week you have to double the amount…the fact that the money doesn’t just get lobbyist access…the lobbyist write the law…write the law…Now…wolf…you know that ain’t right…...THAT IS FASCISM….just as plain as day is light…
p.s….Martin Luther King was assassinated for voicing his opinion…..................true…
Posted by Redhorse on Jun 21, 2006 at 10:07 PM WOLF
The shameful scandal and national disgrace of 15000 oldies dying is very real. The reasons for it range from immediate bureaucratic incompetence to the underlying fact that insufficient personnel and resources ARE deployed to do the job of looking after the aged.AND that happens in a country that has , technically, never been so rich as it is today.
However comparing it to the US Occupation of Iraq is hazardous, for YOU. Sadly your dead are not alone. The severely physically wounded will be with you for the rest of their lives. The mentally wounded , as after VietNam, will continue to suffer, kill themselves and others. The gigantic debts incurred will be paid by others than GWB and friends, the American people.
I take no pleasure in that. Many brit vets of Thatcher’s little war in the Falklands also committed suicide.
Free Speech in europe is certainly limited differently than in the US, and is a cause for concern.
Unfortunately for all of us, we have more in common than divides us .The “Security State” is looming all over.
My daughter and her husband teach in the “car-burning area” , never saw one RIOT . The plumber up the road is very involved in his union, but we’ve never discussed religion. He came from morocco long ago.
Gitmo is a small part of the disaster that is Iraq, and the War on Terra.
Apparently you are very uninformed as to the reality, the injustice and inhumanity of Gitmo. Many brits like me have read the witness of freed british prisoners, and with every day that now passes, the USA is losing friends right around the world.
Maybe you won’t have to wait a lifetime to see the principle transfered to mainland USA.
Posted by frog on Jun 21, 2006 at 10:30 PM HEY HORSE
At times I’ve thought Wolfie was Human, but on second thoughts his rantish anti-french thing above looks like shiilism ?
Posted by frog on Jun 21, 2006 at 10:37 PM frog…Well anything Is .possible…....my take is that guys like wolf are ” a dime for 3 dozen ” in the States…part ” white-skin privilege “...part ” a sort of macho indifference ; with a don’t worry be happy swirl topping “...hey…u now ; if you’re a white guy….anglo-saxon…gotta little money in my pocket…what could go wrong ? no big deal….GITMO…that’s the other peoples problem…who the other people are is never him so what’s the big deal…Now when it happens to wolf…Then The Sky Is Falling….
Democracy Now.org covered the story of the Brit national that was renditioned to GITMO by way of Morroco….”..can I at least call my wife..a lawyer…my parents..”....you are in a matter of seconds ” an un-person “...not physically dead…just kind of .....
Posted by Redhorse on Jun 21, 2006 at 11:16 PM Frog ,WTH ,CabDrvCh ,wolf…..author Wole Soyinka ; Wiinner of the 1986 Nobel Prize For Literature…book title…The Man Died…The Prison Notes of Wole Soyinka…poet , playwright ,novelist , born in Nigeria 1934….1967 arrested and jailed for acts of public defiance , denounced military dictatorship in Nigeria…supported Biafra seccession in the Press…The experience of Soyinka held in solitary confinement in an underground cell for the duration of the Nigerian civil war ; having no idea of when or if he would be released , seldom are the voiceless ...that have been labeled as such , been in fact ...quite vocal ... An excellent book to study for all who are interested in understanding what a GITMO is all about…..wolf…wolf…
Posted by Redhorse on Jun 22, 2006 at 12:57 AM On November 10, 1995, the Nigerian military government under General Sani Abacha executed dissident writer Ken Saro-Wiwa along with eight other activists, and the international community reacted with outrage. From the Geneva based International Commission of Jurists (who called the executions
a criminal act of state murder) to governments around the world (including the United States) who recalled their ambassadors, to the Commonwealth of Former British Colonies, who suspended Nigeria from the group, the response was quick, decisive, and nearly unanimous: Nigeria is an outcast in the
global village.Natch, Nigeria is now back in the Community of nations, gotta lotta OIL.
Having a little local difficulty, so yummy, we might just be about to sell a few helicopter gunships to democratise them.
WOLF don’t care, Horse.
Tortured or murdered people, individuals or millions, are just forgettable blips in history, unless it suits him to use them to prove his current point., when of course he is very human, very caring.
Posted by frog on Jun 22, 2006 at 1:23 AM Hey frog - some clarifications are in order. I am not “anti-french” (or anti-US, etc). Rather i see that we are all imperfect and accept that as our lot in this world. We should all strive for improvement, while remaining somewhat humble. Each of us (and each of our respective countries/cultures) are not all that we can be.
Before the US invaded Iraq, it was a brutal dictatorship. Under the leadership of Saddam it had engaged in killing of its own population, war against its neighbors, and even providing incentives to those who would take their own lives to kill innocents. Given how history has unfolded, it might have been best to merely avert our collective eyes, as we do now for Sudan/Darfur. But had we done that, perhaps there would still be regrets? (I personally believe that if the entire western world had united against Saddam - or Sudan today - then constructive change would be possible. But averting ones eyes is cheaper, easier, and leaves us all “blameless”. Millions die, but “its not our fault”. Great.)
Gitmo was established for a reason. What to do with paramilitary warriors that are not associated with a state? They are not civilians, but once captured they are not POWs. What are they and what should we do with them? Surely they do not belong in the criminal justice system of the US, perhaps they can be sent back to their own countries and tried there? I welcome your thoughts and suggestions on this matter.
I suppose that one were in favor of the death penally then one could apply Redhorse comments from Jun 21, 2006 at 5:16 just as aptly. In fact, anytime that the state uses coercion or punishment of any type, and there is the possibility of unfairness, his comments would be apt. One might note that doing nothing can be worse than attempting to solve a problem, even if it leads to (apparently) less culpability.
I see no reason we cannot simply express our opinions respectfully and hopefully learn from each other. Perhaps, from your point of view, i have nothing to contribute along these lines?
Posted by wolf on Jun 22, 2006 at 2:48 PM wolf
agreed on the imperfections.
Plenty of dictatorships in the world, to choose from, so why do some get selected for intervention, and others for military aid and collaboration ?
Heresy to say “maybe Iraq was better off under saddam”, but I reckon many may be coming around to that conclusion. Talking about their, not our opinions.Plenty of Pak taliban were airlifted back home. Those in G were hoovered up here and there, I believe a minority actually in arms ?
Members of your JAG have protested agianst participating in rigged trials. Go look.There are hundreds of thousands of paramilitary warriors in Pakistan—the government writ has never covered the whole country, you know.
Posted by frog on Jun 22, 2006 at 3:39 PM “Heresy to say “maybe Iraq was better off under saddam”, but I reckon many may be coming around to that conclusion.”
Lots of people believe this on all sides, so not really heresy. Avert our eyes, ignore the suffering, don’t know, don’t care. This is what one would have expected from a president who never even bothered to travel abroad before he was elected. As you know, while it might have been a goal to build a better country there, this was a tertiary goal. US policy is in line with Europe and the rest of the world in that regard - suffering is best handled by ignoring it.
I still wonder what we *should* do with the people locked up in Gitmo.
Posted by wolf on Jun 22, 2006 at 6:25 PM A “better country” in bushcheneyrummy terms” would have been a country with a puppet government resigned to having its oil filched, its laws changed beyond recognition by the CPA , and a people subdued.
Your and my idea of a better country completely different.
Since we do not reform our own rotten societies, no right to pretend to do it to others…
gitmo, try them if there is any evidence of anything, but the JAG say what there is, pitifully little for a few, mostly won’t stand up in court .
Beat me long enough and I’ll “confess” too.GWB could not justify keeeping them there so long, unless he’d peruaded YOu these were all maniacal terrists.
Repetition my dear Goebbels ! (not you horse, rhetorical)
Posted by frog on Jun 22, 2006 at 10:05 PM It’s heart rending to read the several dozen posts here, but the US is getting the message anyway.
Shit, or get off the pot.
Either these people are prisoners of war, and entitled to the same considerations that all POWs enjoy under the Geneva Convention.
Or they are designated criminals, in your judicial system, and entitled to the same rights of legal counsel and protection from abuse.
How did this go on for 5 years anyway?
Posted by minerva on Jun 23, 2006 at 2:11 AM wolf….It sounds like the jump off point for you is at some level you buy into the propaganda…that in some way the U.S. intention is too make Iraq a better place too live and play….that is as polly anna as a grown man can get….and Santa comes once a year….Come on…WAKE-UP…U.S. intervention BAD…make money off of other peoples resources…BAD…change your MEDIA story countless times as to why you invaded a sovereigh independent nation BAD..falsely imprison human beings without DUE PROCESS double BAD…..True ...most Iraqis would probably agree Saddam Hussien was not a nice guy…but how you go from that feeling / fact to the justification of an armed invasion…WRONG….If Iraqi citizens hated Saddam before…now they hate amerika…now they miss the normality of their PAST lives…running water…heat and electricity…the basic stuff that WAR destroys…a sense of some peace of mind..safety…ya know….There is no rational , moral , legal .....reasoning that can be made…period…final…the end…khaputz…zero…nada
Whether Iraq is better off with or without Hussien is a Moot question or point , illegality of the invasion is the point…you cannot rationalize away the Crime…...
Posted by Redhorse on Jun 23, 2006 at 6:27 AM Minerva
Agreed.
for so much else we can ask “how could it go on for so long?”Prison conditions in most rich countries range from good to disgraceful, with little provision for education, reintegration.
Great Inspectors in the uk, like General David Ramsbotham, no soft-headed woolly “liberal’, have condemned the system, saying that there are tens of thousands in uk (out of 70,000) who should not even be inside.We know this, but the legal and incarceration systems persist, unchanged—- institutional monsters that often do more harm than good.
How much worse in the case of guantanamo, where in the name of a war on terror, the defence of our “civilised” legally-protected way of life, hundreds have been held deliberately outside the rule of law.
Stick a terror-label on any arrestee, and suddenly they are guilty of heinous crimes , or intended crimes, before trial.
Recent examples in uk and canada prove this. The police leak inflammatory rubbish to the press, who hype it for headlines to titillate the public, create a climate of fear.
Recent court cases in the US (forget Moussaoui) have been brought to make any case stick, nothing that we would accept as terrorism.
The Detroit Terror Cell case is is but one example. CBSLittle of “our Way of Life”, our “Civilisation”, left to defend, if there ever was any ....
Posted by frog on Jun 23, 2006 at 9:44 AM Minerva…so well said….the problem is these Fools are so Drunk with Power ; they can’t even find the Pot.! ! Soo….it is qiute a Mess…indeed…...
Due Process for all ” REAL ” cases , the Moussaouis don’t qualify…....release everybody else ....pay reparations too all falsely detaineed…..that’s about all you can do at this point….........true
p.s…..in a Dream sequence….some accountability….....maybe….....Impeachment…
Posted by Redhorse on Jun 23, 2006 at 11:05 AM Page 1 of 1 pages -
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