Page 1 of 1 pages
Well, Monsieur Muwakkil,, at long last I find little to disagree with in much of your analysis, in so far as it goes.
I read an US interview with the Hamas leader, where he asked the vital question—Which Israel , What borders ?
1948, 1967, ??????????????????
One of my older French friends was a “TERRORIST”. That is what the German Occupiers and their Collaborationist Vichy Allies called the French Resistance.
He was lucky. On the 6th june44, in Caen, Normandy, he was in his THIRD Resistance group , and now he’s 86 years old, and still dynamic.
I have no idea IF Hamas MAY become more ‘reasonable’, more ‘secular’. (IF they had sense, they would easily do so, and gain really solid support at home…..most Palestinians are not fundamentalists )
What is known, as you emphasise, is that US efforts to counter “COMMUNISM” have led to the empowerment of loony Islamism.
All that because the US has refused to “allow” states to be ‘sovereign’.
Acting within an extraordinarily narrow remit, the US has lost potential friends at an ever-increasing speed.
Which brings me to Barbara Tuchmann’s “March Of Folly.”
How could the USA do so much so wrong for so long ?
Well, they dunnit. Just like King George.
Posted by frog on Jun 12, 2006 at 2:39 PM
As Muwakkil indicated, terrorism can be defined as “assymetrical” warfare. This is important if we are to understand the relationship between those with a legitmate right to enact violence and those who cannot.
The asymmetrical relationship of power and violence is determined by a subject/object binary. The powerful are the privileged “subjects” who have the power to enact violence, as a kind of divine right, make laws, determine punishment (in the form of sanctions or prisons), and control the dissemination of information, including visual and textual media.
Groups like Hamas are on the weaker side of the binary and are thus treated like objects; like the Palestinians, in general, Hamas is never considered a “subject.”
Denied subjecthood, Hamas and the Palestinians are viewed as a void, a mute object. As long as they are treated as objects, they have no claim to use violence to pursue their own ends because as an object they are denied their humanity. Only those who are granted the privilege of being human (subjects), with a right to exist, have the power to impose themselves on the objective world. The “terrorist,” is a form of objectification, and, therefore, a natural extension of an innate, dehumanized condition. The subject has a right to exist; the object does not.
From this it is easy to grasp the hypocritical nature of “legimate” violence committed by the “subject,” as opposed to the object of “illegitimate” violence.
Posted by Epistrophy on Jun 13, 2006 at 4:51 PM
Binary-shminary. Actually, I think this could be simplified. Here ya go: Israel is taking Palestinian land. That’s not right, or legal. You come take my land, I’ll shoot you, all philosophical bullshit aside.
Posted by opeluboy on Jun 15, 2006 at 3:46 PM
wth
Shooting from the hip again, me old gunslinger ?
Muwakkil was brought up on Resistance films like the rest of us, and nowhere does he “equalify them” ( to coin a Bushism before the Master of that genre) with the Vichy ADMINISTRATION.
Muwakkil is talking about Palestine , Israel, and OUR leaders and OUR PRESS that reiterates the Bullshit. .
Your comment about “Iraqi factions” has nothing AT ALL to do with this thread.
NOTHING.
SOMEHOW, for their own nefarious reasons,, Western Powers have seen fit to discourage, or kill off, secular alternatives to more or less extreme Islamist alternatives.
Jay Garner, who from all accounts should have been part of theTEAM got fired because he believed IT was their OIL WE WANTED; HE WANTED ELECTIONS WITHIN 90 dAYS;
Posted by frog on Jun 17, 2006 at 2:54 PM
Frog, you say,
Posted by whattheheck on Jun 18, 2006 at 7:30 AM
WTH
You are right, but only up to a point .
I was distracted by Muwakkil’s completely inappropriate (polite language for fucking wrong) use of the word HAUGHTY, and missed his ALL occupiers instead of , for example, MANY occupiers.
Gooks, ragheads, Hajis, Muj, are all clear signs of the Untermenschen -idea , racist forces at work. I do recommend you look at juan cole—he’s another example of my long-held belief that the US of A produces some of the very best examples of what humanity can be, as well as some of the very worst.
In fact Nige is not a general, just a brigadier. UK ranks . Another high-ranking British military source actually said the US forces regard the “locals” as Untermenschen, reported in the Daily Telegraph, and that is a brit right-wing rag .
Leaving aside the Untermenschen, the Holocaust of which they were ignorant, many french believed that Hitler was a fighter against the dark enemy of Bolshevism, and joined the Vichyite MILICE, a very nasty “anti-terrist” paramilitary organisation. Others went to fight on the Russian Front.
General Patton, who passed this way (just down the road) in 1944, believed the same.
The article we are supposed to be discussing is about PALESTINE !
And HYPOCRISY .
ER Doctors and ambulance drivers still go to work there, unpaid for months. So would you, so would I.
You have not got DSL yet, in the richest country in the world, but you probably have TV and every time there is a BOMB ‘down there’, you see “ambulances” coming to pick up the human debris, the suffering. What motivates those guys is universal.
I do not know for 100% sure that the USMC snipers targeted ambulances in Fallujah. I CAN believe it, so far have we in the rest of the Planet become used to the idea that the hyper-powerful completely pitiable USA is out of control.
I’m a brit, we are used to “terrism”. We go on living. SCUM who try to make us scared, fearful, like you yanks have been persuaded to be,—- we mostly tell them to fuck off, get a life.
Fucking hell, me old WTH, you have more chance of dying because your VA hospital is secretly experimenting on you than from Ossama.
BigPharma and Agibusiness kill more yanks every year than road accidents, and YOu allow yourself to get worked up about ISLAMOFASCISTS !
WOOPS ! I too am now on the wrong thread.
The Palestinian Authority under Arafat was deeply corrupt. Europe paid hundreds of mio to keep it afloat, and now cuts off aid to Hamas, which is not corrupt .
Do you wonder that OUR governments continue to do so much so wrong for so long ? I do .
Posted by frog on Jun 18, 2006 at 2:33 PM
Frog,
I read the Juan Cole article giving the evaluation of the U.S. military by British Brig. Gen. Aylwin-Foster and found his comments interesting, but I have no idea of his qualifications or personality. Therefore I can
Posted by whattheheck on Jun 19, 2006 at 9:19 AM
WTH
My argument for relativising and comparing different dangers that face us all is a reaction to the mass media . Self-defence.
We are served up an increasingly trivial and shallow diet which can only be called propaganda . Distortions and downright lies are endlessly repeated until the majority of people get to accept them as ‘facts’ .
The “health ” industry is a case in point, where the proclaimed aims are far from the reality. Veterans and kids beware ! A recent case I saw on buzzflash or ICH was about a cheap drug not being manufactured in favour of an expensive one .
Your article on honour was rather long , and you apparently believe it reinforces your case for TWAT (that war against terra) .Not sure, i’ll read again later.
I come from a completely different direction, and REFUSE to allow my gov or any other to make me live in fear. Scum politicians all over are working on us to that end, so we will be easily manipulable objects.
Watching and listening to the bushblair duo & CO , those guys are so far off our moral planet that I now just regard them as “cases” to be studied, enemies to be opposed and exposed. Same for the globalisin dishonest scum here in france. They want to turn the clock back a century on workers’ rights and pay.
The Occupation in Iraq etc has created more terrists than there were before, anfd given military experience to many who did not already have it. link above.
DISINFO on palestine is common, and I’m ashamed of my countries that they have allowed themselves to be coerced by the US to cut off doctors’ pay, etc.
As usual that is the US shooting itself yet again in the foot, making more enemies. Tony Blair would call me anti-american , well he gets everything wrong, the little shit !
Now off to blairwatch to see what new nuggets of hypocrisy and stupidity the bloggers have unearthed .
Posted by frog on Jun 19, 2006 at 5:58 PM
Frog,
re: VA and meds
Posted by whattheheck on Jun 20, 2006 at 9:21 AM
Frog,
I went back to the
Posted by whattheheck on Jun 20, 2006 at 9:38 AM
WTH
I wear a seat-belt too . Being fearful myself of road-accidents, knowing the statistics, I still belt up.
I don’t need “training” if people stop dropping asphyxiated around me in the subway, French metro, or UK underground. Poison at work and with luck I may live !.
The only way you will have antidotes for 280mio Yanks is to devote half your economy to chem/bio warfare research and production, get everyone to build an extension on the house to keep them in, and accept millions of deaths due to the fact that the antidotes/vaccinations are more dangerous than the “thing” itself.
Gulf War Syndrome( ie dead and handicapped US veterans) was not invented by frog.
Rescue services need preparation and training, yes. On 7/7 as 911, radio equipment was inefficient / unworkable. Details like that do not need billions to sort out, but IF you let bushco in on the act they will cost billions.
This sort of basic preparedness is the same for ANY accident, a good investment.
Nice to know you are still believing that it was “understandable” to believe that saddam still had WMD, because he said so to somebody, supposedly.
On your last post you subconsciously equate Palestinians and Muslimsand “Middle Easteners” to dogs.
I know that is unfair, and you did not really MEAN that. !
Try to do a small step-change, and listen to frog.
In the eyes of most of the rest of the world, your government is viewed as a bunch of Mad Dogs.
You may not like it, who would ?
I’m a brit and I regard Blair as a mad Poodle.
Of course the Islamist maniacs who shoot women for not wearing the veil are mad, and evil, but so is the US government for making a situation where they are now free to do so.
Posted by frog on Jun 20, 2006 at 5:07 PM
Frog,
After I posted the Dog Whisperer it occurred to me that it could be interpreted that way, but as you indicated, I meant both Westerners and Easterners are making mistaken societal assumptions about each other. (Either party could be the dog in the illustration.)
As to any government (present, past and future)
Posted by whattheheck on Jun 21, 2006 at 7:05 AM
WTH
We got a long way from hypocrisy and palestine.
Iraq is now a dreadful nightmare for those living there .(Unless this is a spoof, it OFFICIALLY confirms everything Dahr Jamail and others have been saying for years. this lightyears away from GWB’s and Cheney’s upbeat messages to TV ) .
So are the various areas of the Palestinian Authority.
As invaders the Ocupying Powers are responsible for the consequences of their actions.
If you get drunk, drive and kill, no excuse that you were drunk ?
I have seen no evidence or serious argument that this invasion was undertaken for any laudable motives, at all. That leaves the “worst possible ones”.
I completely agree with your
We need to punish anyone condoning torture or any other conscious inhumane acts. This is our cultural view.
Beginning with those easiest to get hold of, these would be POTUS, VP, Rummy and Condi.
Posted by frog on Jun 21, 2006 at 11:26 AM
brit Supreme Court judge gives his opinion on Gitmo and creeping Fascism
Cutting off money that feeds kids and pays doctors is consciously inhumane policy. The Hypocrisy is in the words used to justify it, the arguments that sadly we gotta do it to defend ourselves against the nebulous terrists we are terrified of, the Islamofascists invented in our Think tanks.
Muwakkil attributes part of the failure of Secular political groups in the ME to outside intervention, correctly. WE definitely overthrew Mossadeq in IRAN, in 1953 (?), because he wanted their share of oil profits. Later on WE chucked out Jay Garner who, surprisingly (!) said “It’s THEIR OIL .
Unknowable now what would have happened to those secular political groups , those countries, because in our frenzy to fight the demons we perceived at the time, get slightly cheaper OIL, independent “nationalism” was as heinous to us us “communism”, we often conflated the two to justify bloodthirsty national policies.
And then you wonder that elements of ISLAM have been radicalised ?
Kill off the moderates, or terrorise them, make them emigrate, and who is left ?
Create anarchy, you encourage criminals and extremists.
Posted by frog on Jun 21, 2006 at 1:00 PM
Frog,
Muwakkil Faults the U.S. and EU for withdrawing
Posted by whattheheck on Jun 22, 2006 at 6:19 AM
WTH
muwakkil does not write as carefully as he should.
hamas ain’t out to eradicate israel, any more than the mistranslated ‘jihad’ in iran.
hamas has had a ceasefire in place for how long ?
Saddam was a vicious despot. IMO the invasion had nothing to do with that. Oher vicious despots receive US military aid, collaboration, as we speak. craigmurray—uzbekistan—- have a look. ?
going for a swim, get away from this evilworld, brush away the cobwebs, seeya !
Posted by frog on Jun 22, 2006 at 8:48 AM
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Reader Comments
Well, Monsieur Muwakkil,, at long last I find little to disagree with in much of your analysis, in so far as it goes.
I read an US interview with the Hamas leader, where he asked the vital question—Which Israel , What borders ?
1948, 1967, ??????????????????
One of my older French friends was a “TERRORIST”. That is what the German Occupiers and their Collaborationist Vichy Allies called the French Resistance.
He was lucky. On the 6th june44, in Caen, Normandy, he was in his THIRD Resistance group , and now he’s 86 years old, and still dynamic.
I have no idea IF Hamas MAY become more ‘reasonable’, more ‘secular’. (IF they had sense, they would easily do so, and gain really solid support at home…..most Palestinians are not fundamentalists )
What is known, as you emphasise, is that US efforts to counter “COMMUNISM” have led to the empowerment of loony Islamism.
All that because the US has refused to “allow” states to be ‘sovereign’.
Acting within an extraordinarily narrow remit, the US has lost potential friends at an ever-increasing speed.
Which brings me to Barbara Tuchmann’s “March Of Folly.”
How could the USA do so much so wrong for so long ?
Well, they dunnit. Just like King George.
As Muwakkil indicated, terrorism can be defined as “assymetrical” warfare. This is important if we are to understand the relationship between those with a legitmate right to enact violence and those who cannot.
The asymmetrical relationship of power and violence is determined by a subject/object binary. The powerful are the privileged “subjects” who have the power to enact violence, as a kind of divine right, make laws, determine punishment (in the form of sanctions or prisons), and control the dissemination of information, including visual and textual media.
Groups like Hamas are on the weaker side of the binary and are thus treated like objects; like the Palestinians, in general, Hamas is never considered a “subject.”
Denied subjecthood, Hamas and the Palestinians are viewed as a void, a mute object. As long as they are treated as objects, they have no claim to use violence to pursue their own ends because as an object they are denied their humanity. Only those who are granted the privilege of being human (subjects), with a right to exist, have the power to impose themselves on the objective world. The “terrorist,” is a form of objectification, and, therefore, a natural extension of an innate, dehumanized condition. The subject has a right to exist; the object does not.
From this it is easy to grasp the hypocritical nature of “legimate” violence committed by the “subject,” as opposed to the object of “illegitimate” violence.
Binary-shminary. Actually, I think this could be simplified. Here ya go: Israel is taking Palestinian land. That’s not right, or legal. You come take my land, I’ll shoot you, all philosophical bullshit aside.
wth
Shooting from the hip again, me old gunslinger ?
Muwakkil was brought up on Resistance films like the rest of us, and nowhere does he “equalify them” ( to coin a Bushism before the Master of that genre) with the Vichy ADMINISTRATION.
Muwakkil is talking about Palestine , Israel, and OUR leaders and OUR PRESS that reiterates the Bullshit. .
Your comment about “Iraqi factions” has nothing AT ALL to do with this thread.
NOTHING.
SOMEHOW, for their own nefarious reasons,, Western Powers have seen fit to discourage, or kill off, secular alternatives to more or less extreme Islamist alternatives.
Jay Garner, who from all accounts should have been part of theTEAM got fired because he believed IT was their OIL WE WANTED; HE WANTED ELECTIONS WITHIN 90 dAYS;
Frog, you say,
WTH
You are right, but only up to a point .
I was distracted by Muwakkil’s completely inappropriate (polite language for fucking wrong) use of the word HAUGHTY, and missed his ALL occupiers instead of , for example, MANY occupiers.
Gooks, ragheads, Hajis, Muj, are all clear signs of the Untermenschen -idea , racist forces at work. I do recommend you look at juan cole—he’s another example of my long-held belief that the US of A produces some of the very best examples of what humanity can be, as well as some of the very worst.
In fact Nige is not a general, just a brigadier. UK ranks . Another high-ranking British military source actually said the US forces regard the “locals” as Untermenschen, reported in the Daily Telegraph, and that is a brit right-wing rag .
Leaving aside the Untermenschen, the Holocaust of which they were ignorant, many french believed that Hitler was a fighter against the dark enemy of Bolshevism, and joined the Vichyite MILICE, a very nasty “anti-terrist” paramilitary organisation. Others went to fight on the Russian Front.
General Patton, who passed this way (just down the road) in 1944, believed the same.
The article we are supposed to be discussing is about PALESTINE !
And HYPOCRISY .
ER Doctors and ambulance drivers still go to work there, unpaid for months. So would you, so would I.
You have not got DSL yet, in the richest country in the world, but you probably have TV and every time there is a BOMB ‘down there’, you see “ambulances” coming to pick up the human debris, the suffering. What motivates those guys is universal.
I do not know for 100% sure that the USMC snipers targeted ambulances in Fallujah. I CAN believe it, so far have we in the rest of the Planet become used to the idea that the hyper-powerful completely pitiable USA is out of control.
I’m a brit, we are used to “terrism”. We go on living. SCUM who try to make us scared, fearful, like you yanks have been persuaded to be,—- we mostly tell them to fuck off, get a life.
Fucking hell, me old WTH, you have more chance of dying because your VA hospital is secretly experimenting on you than from Ossama.
BigPharma and Agibusiness kill more yanks every year than road accidents, and YOu allow yourself to get worked up about ISLAMOFASCISTS !
WOOPS ! I too am now on the wrong thread.
The Palestinian Authority under Arafat was deeply corrupt. Europe paid hundreds of mio to keep it afloat, and now cuts off aid to Hamas, which is not corrupt .
Do you wonder that OUR governments continue to do so much so wrong for so long ? I do .
Frog,
I read the Juan Cole article giving the evaluation of the U.S. military by British Brig. Gen. Aylwin-Foster and found his comments interesting, but I have no idea of his qualifications or personality. Therefore I can
WTH
My argument for relativising and comparing different dangers that face us all is a reaction to the mass media . Self-defence.
We are served up an increasingly trivial and shallow diet which can only be called propaganda . Distortions and downright lies are endlessly repeated until the majority of people get to accept them as ‘facts’ .
The “health ” industry is a case in point, where the proclaimed aims are far from the reality. Veterans and kids beware ! A recent case I saw on buzzflash or ICH was about a cheap drug not being manufactured in favour of an expensive one .
Your article on honour was rather long , and you apparently believe it reinforces your case for TWAT (that war against terra) .Not sure, i’ll read again later.
I come from a completely different direction, and REFUSE to allow my gov or any other to make me live in fear. Scum politicians all over are working on us to that end, so we will be easily manipulable objects.
Watching and listening to the bushblair duo & CO , those guys are so far off our moral planet that I now just regard them as “cases” to be studied, enemies to be opposed and exposed. Same for the globalisin dishonest scum here in france. They want to turn the clock back a century on workers’ rights and pay.
The Occupation in Iraq etc has created more terrists than there were before, anfd given military experience to many who did not already have it. link above.
DISINFO on palestine is common, and I’m ashamed of my countries that they have allowed themselves to be coerced by the US to cut off doctors’ pay, etc.
As usual that is the US shooting itself yet again in the foot, making more enemies. Tony Blair would call me anti-american , well he gets everything wrong, the little shit !
Now off to blairwatch to see what new nuggets of hypocrisy and stupidity the bloggers have unearthed .
Frog,
re: VA and meds
Frog,
I went back to the
WTH
I wear a seat-belt too . Being fearful myself of road-accidents, knowing the statistics, I still belt up.
I don’t need “training” if people stop dropping asphyxiated around me in the subway, French metro, or UK underground. Poison at work and with luck I may live !.
The only way you will have antidotes for 280mio Yanks is to devote half your economy to chem/bio warfare research and production, get everyone to build an extension on the house to keep them in, and accept millions of deaths due to the fact that the antidotes/vaccinations are more dangerous than the “thing” itself.
Gulf War Syndrome( ie dead and handicapped US veterans) was not invented by frog.
Rescue services need preparation and training, yes. On 7/7 as 911, radio equipment was inefficient / unworkable. Details like that do not need billions to sort out, but IF you let bushco in on the act they will cost billions.
This sort of basic preparedness is the same for ANY accident, a good investment.
Nice to know you are still believing that it was “understandable” to believe that saddam still had WMD, because he said so to somebody, supposedly.
On your last post you subconsciously equate Palestinians and Muslimsand “Middle Easteners” to dogs.
I know that is unfair, and you did not really MEAN that. !
Try to do a small step-change, and listen to frog.
In the eyes of most of the rest of the world, your government is viewed as a bunch of Mad Dogs.
You may not like it, who would ?
I’m a brit and I regard Blair as a mad Poodle.
Of course the Islamist maniacs who shoot women for not wearing the veil are mad, and evil, but so is the US government for making a situation where they are now free to do so.
Frog,
After I posted the Dog Whisperer it occurred to me that it could be interpreted that way, but as you indicated, I meant both Westerners and Easterners are making mistaken societal assumptions about each other. (Either party could be the dog in the illustration.)
As to any government (present, past and future)
WTH
We got a long way from hypocrisy and palestine.
Iraq is now a dreadful nightmare for those living there .(Unless this is a spoof, it OFFICIALLY confirms everything Dahr Jamail and others have been saying for years. this lightyears away from GWB’s and Cheney’s upbeat messages to TV ) .
So are the various areas of the Palestinian Authority.
As invaders the Ocupying Powers are responsible for the consequences of their actions.
If you get drunk, drive and kill, no excuse that you were drunk ?
I have seen no evidence or serious argument that this invasion was undertaken for any laudable motives, at all. That leaves the “worst possible ones”.
I completely agree with your
Beginning with those easiest to get hold of, these would be POTUS, VP, Rummy and Condi.
brit Supreme Court judge gives his opinion on Gitmo and creeping Fascism
Cutting off money that feeds kids and pays doctors is consciously inhumane policy. The Hypocrisy is in the words used to justify it, the arguments that sadly we gotta do it to defend ourselves against the nebulous terrists we are terrified of, the Islamofascists invented in our Think tanks.
Muwakkil attributes part of the failure of Secular political groups in the ME to outside intervention, correctly. WE definitely overthrew Mossadeq in IRAN, in 1953 (?), because he wanted their share of oil profits. Later on WE chucked out Jay Garner who, surprisingly (!) said “It’s THEIR OIL .
Unknowable now what would have happened to those secular political groups , those countries, because in our frenzy to fight the demons we perceived at the time, get slightly cheaper OIL, independent “nationalism” was as heinous to us us “communism”, we often conflated the two to justify bloodthirsty national policies.
And then you wonder that elements of ISLAM have been radicalised ?
Kill off the moderates, or terrorise them, make them emigrate, and who is left ?
Create anarchy, you encourage criminals and extremists.
Frog,
Muwakkil Faults the U.S. and EU for withdrawing
WTH
muwakkil does not write as carefully as he should.
hamas ain’t out to eradicate israel, any more than the mistranslated ‘jihad’ in iran.
hamas has had a ceasefire in place for how long ?
Saddam was a vicious despot. IMO the invasion had nothing to do with that. Oher vicious despots receive US military aid, collaboration, as we speak. craigmurray—uzbekistan—- have a look. ?
going for a swim, get away from this evilworld, brush away the cobwebs, seeya !
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