In May, President George W. Bush and an adoring Congress offered lavish support for a unilateral plan by Israel Prime Minister Ehud Olmert to set Israel’s final permanent borders. The plan involves annexing large portions of the occupied West Bank, including highly contested land near the city of Jerusalem, and building a wall enclosing the expanded Jewish state in a… return to article
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Reader Comments (17)Page 1 of 1 pagesWell, Monsieur Muwakkil,, at long last I find little to disagree with in much of your analysis, in so far as it goes.
I read an US interview with the Hamas leader, where he asked the vital question—Which Israel , What borders ?
1948, 1967, ??????????????????One of my older French friends was a “TERRORIST”. That is what the German Occupiers and their Collaborationist Vichy Allies called the French Resistance.
He was lucky. On the 6th june44, in Caen, Normandy, he was in his THIRD Resistance group , and now he’s 86 years old, and still dynamic.I have no idea IF Hamas MAY become more ‘reasonable’, more ‘secular’. (IF they had sense, they would easily do so, and gain really solid support at home.....most Palestinians are not fundamentalists )
What is known, as you emphasise, is that US efforts to counter “COMMUNISM” have led to the empowerment of loony Islamism.
All that because the US has refused to “allow” states to be ‘sovereign’.
Acting within an extraordinarily narrow remit, the US has lost potential friends at an ever-increasing speed.
Which brings me to Barbara Tuchmann’s “March Of Folly.”
How could the USA do so much so wrong for so long ?
Well, they dunnit. Just like King George.
Posted by frog on Jun 12, 2006 at 3:39 PM As Muwakkil indicated, terrorism can be defined as “assymetrical” warfare. This is important if we are to understand the relationship between those with a legitmate right to enact violence and those who cannot.
The asymmetrical relationship of power and violence is determined by a subject/object binary. The powerful are the privileged “subjects” who have the power to enact violence, as a kind of divine right, make laws, determine punishment (in the form of sanctions or prisons), and control the dissemination of information, including visual and textual media.
Groups like Hamas are on the weaker side of the binary and are thus treated like objects; like the Palestinians, in general, Hamas is never considered a “subject.”
Denied subjecthood, Hamas and the Palestinians are viewed as a void, a mute object. As long as they are treated as objects, they have no claim to use violence to pursue their own ends because as an object they are denied their humanity. Only those who are granted the privilege of being human (subjects), with a right to exist, have the power to impose themselves on the objective world. The “terrorist,” is a form of objectification, and, therefore, a natural extension of an innate, dehumanized condition. The subject has a right to exist; the object does not.
From this it is easy to grasp the hypocritical nature of “legimate” violence committed by the “subject,” as opposed to the object of “illegitimate” violence.
Posted by Epistrophy on Jun 13, 2006 at 5:51 PM Binary-shminary. Actually, I think this could be simplified. Here ya go: Israel is taking Palestinian land. That’s not right, or legal. You come take my land, I’ll shoot you, all philosophical bullshit aside.
Posted by opeluboy on Jun 15, 2006 at 4:46 PM “One reason for this change of heart may be that the Bush administration has defined these contemporary resistance fighters as enemies in the war on terrorism.”
Or, perhaps Muwakkil is defining these contemporary terrorists to suit his own bias.
“After all, throughout my life, I’ve seen at least a dozen films and heard many tales lauding the heroic acts of the French and Polish resistance to the Nazi occupation of World War II, while deriding France’s dreaded Vichy regime, which collaborated with the Nazis.”
Should I take it that Muwakkil sees no difference in any of these? The French and Polish resistance fighters are equal to the Nazis and the Vichy collaborator?
I doubt that he does.
However, he makes no distinction between any of the Iraqi factions. He seems to think they all have the purist of motives for fighting against the coalition of the wicked invader/occupiers.
Life is not quite that neat.
Posted by whattheheck on Jun 17, 2006 at 12:13 PM wth
Shooting from the hip again, me old gunslinger ?Muwakkil was brought up on Resistance films like the rest of us, and nowhere does he “equalify them” ( to coin a Bushism before the Master of that genre) with the Vichy ADMINISTRATION.
Muwakkil is talking about Palestine , Israel, and OUR leaders and OUR PRESS that reiterates the Bullshit. .
Your comment about “Iraqi factions” has nothing AT ALL to do with this thread.
NOTHING.
SOMEHOW, for their own nefarious reasons,, Western Powers have seen fit to discourage, or kill off, secular alternatives to more or less extreme Islamist alternatives.
Jay Garner, who from all accounts should have been part of theTEAM got fired because he believed IT was their OIL WE WANTED; HE WANTED ELECTIONS WITHIN 90 dAYS;
Posted by frog on Jun 17, 2006 at 3:54 PM Frog, you say, “Your comment about “Iraqi factions” has nothing AT ALL to do with this thread.
NOTHING.”I quote the article:
“Today, however, the U.S. government and its media handmaidens insist we must despise the Palestinian, Iraqi and Afghani resistance fighter and embrace the occupiers and their collaborators.”
“Today’s occupiers argue that their actions are necessary to insure national security, relieve human suffering and bring democracy to these countries. But we should recall that all of history’s occupiers justified their actions with similarly haughty motives.”
ALL? He threw in the Nazis just before his last comment. Hitler used the need for Lebensraum, classified Poles, Hungarians and a long list of others as “Untermenschen” (subhuman). Let’s be a bit less sweeping in the generalities department.
Leftist or rightist — when writing gets this blatantly distorted the point he tries to make is suspect in my view. Until people can come to see others as people with multiple motives this chunk of real estate will continue to be blood soaked.
Salim Muwakkil’s article does nothing to help the situation. I hope he is better at his day job in Chicago.I agree Garner was a better choice for the job than Bermer, but sadly, until Rumsfeld is out we are stuck with the same old, same old approach to Iraq.
Posted by whattheheck on Jun 18, 2006 at 8:30 AM WTH
You are right, but only up to a point .I was distracted by Muwakkil’s completely inappropriate (polite language for fucking wrong) use of the word HAUGHTY, and missed his ALL occupiers instead of , for example, MANY occupiers.
Gooks, ragheads, Hajis, Muj, are all clear signs of the Untermenschen -idea , racist forces at work. I do recommend you look at juan cole-- he’s another example of my long-held belief that the US of A produces some of the very best examples of what humanity can be, as well as some of the very worst.
In fact Nige is not a general, just a brigadier. UK ranks . Another high-ranking British military source actually said the US forces regard the “locals” as Untermenschen, reported in the Daily Telegraph, and that is a brit right-wing rag .
Leaving aside the Untermenschen, the Holocaust of which they were ignorant, many french believed that Hitler was a fighter against the dark enemy of Bolshevism, and joined the Vichyite MILICE, a very nasty “anti-terrist” paramilitary organisation. Others went to fight on the Russian Front.
General Patton, who passed this way (just down the road) in 1944, believed the same.
The article we are supposed to be discussing is about PALESTINE !
And HYPOCRISY .
ER Doctors and ambulance drivers still go to work there, unpaid for months. So would you, so would I.
You have not got DSL yet, in the richest country in the world, but you probably have TV and every time there is a BOMB ‘down there’, you see “ambulances” coming to pick up the human debris, the suffering. What motivates those guys is universal.
I do not know for 100% sure that the USMC snipers targeted ambulances in Fallujah. I CAN believe it, so far have we in the rest of the Planet become used to the idea that the hyper-powerful completely pitiable USA is out of control.
I’m a brit, we are used to “terrism”. We go on living. SCUM who try to make us scared, fearful, like you yanks have been persuaded to be, --- we mostly tell them to fuck off, get a life.
Fucking hell, me old WTH, you have more chance of dying because your VA hospital is secretly experimenting on you than from Ossama.
BigPharma and Agibusiness kill more yanks every year than road accidents, and YOu allow yourself to get worked up about ISLAMOFASCISTS !
WOOPS ! I too am now on the wrong thread.
The Palestinian Authority under Arafat was deeply corrupt. Europe paid hundreds of mio to keep it afloat, and now cuts off aid to Hamas, which is not corrupt .
Do you wonder that OUR governments continue to do so much so wrong for so long ? I do .
Posted by frog on Jun 18, 2006 at 3:33 PM Frog,
I read the Juan Cole article giving the evaluation of the U.S. military by British Brig. Gen. Aylwin-Foster and found his comments interesting, but I have no idea of his qualifications or personality. Therefore I can’t determine if his judgment that, “...attitudes toward the Iraqis among US officers to border on the racist.” or If the U.S. officers are accurate, “...dismissing Brig. Gen. Aylwin-Foster as “a snob.”
This much I do know:
• President Clinton cut the U.S. troop strength by one-third in his eight years in office. (Making the economy look better) Therefore we were far below strength going in.
• Forty percent of those deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan are reservists.
• Most military training is in killing, not nation building.
• Rumsfeld initially told Gen. Franks that the State Dept. would be in charge of Phase IV (but didn’t tell Powell). Later (just before invasion) gave the job to Franks. Franks retired rather than get involved.
• Garner would not go with the Rumsfeld program and was replaced by Bremer who would.
Read a few of your comments from your last post — then ask yourself why you are so willing to believe all the negative “news” and opinion referring to the U.S. Why do you apparently accept at face value reports from unverifiable sources or individuals?
Examples:
“I do not know for 100% sure that the USMC snipers targeted ambulances in Fallujah. I CAN believe it, so far have we in the rest of the Planet become used to the idea that the hyper-powerful completely pitiable USA is out of control.”
“… you have more chance of dying because your VA hospital is secretly experimenting on you than from Ossama.
“BigPharma and Agibusiness kill more yanks every year than road accidents, and YOu allow yourself to get worked up about ISLAMOFASCISTS !”-----------------
“Do you wonder that OUR governments continue to do so much so wrong for so long ? I do.”
Yes!
I believe the degrading of the presidency of by Nixon and Clinton have so diminished our self esteem that anyone here with a sense of honor is at a great disadvantage in trying to explain still having any degree of patriotism our national pride.
Clinton’s mess was NOT, “just about sex.” I don’t give shit if was screwing their cat, Socks. His own words convicted him of hypocrisy, deceit, lying — in total, a dishonorable and untrustworthy person. His attack on the pharmaceutical factory in Africa was a crude attempt to divert attention.
Nixon’s list is nearly identical.
We need a new job description.
-------------------------
I heard an author speaking about his new book, “Honor.” His talk is at this site and has a section relevant to the Palestine issue. I found particularly interesting his description of the Islamic sense of honor compared to the western idea.
http://www.aei.org/publications/pubID.16655,filter.all/pub_detail.asp
This is also from his talk: In view of what Brig. Gen. Aylwin-Foster had to say about the affects of employing lethal force against the terrorists we might want to think about Osama’s 1998 interview remarks—
“We have seen in the last decade the decline of the American government and the weakness of the American soldier, who is ready to wage cold wars and unprepared to fight long wars . . .This was proven in Beirut when the Marines fled after two explosions. It also proves they can run in less than 24 hours and this was also repeated in Somalia. . . . [Our] youth were surprised at the low morale of the American soldiers. . . . After a few blows, they ran in defeat . . . they forgot about being the world leader and the leader of the new world order. They left, dragging their corpses and their shameful defeat.”
Posted by whattheheck on Jun 19, 2006 at 10:19 AM WTH
My argument for relativising and comparing different dangers that face us all is a reaction to the mass media . Self-defence.
We are served up an increasingly trivial and shallow diet which can only be called propaganda . Distortions and downright lies are endlessly repeated until the majority of people get to accept them as ‘facts’ .
The “health “ industry is a case in point, where the proclaimed aims are far from the reality. Veterans and kids beware ! A recent case I saw on buzzflash or ICH was about a cheap drug not being manufactured in favour of an expensive one .
Your article on honour was rather long , and you apparently believe it reinforces your case for TWAT (that war against terra) .Not sure, i’ll read again later.
I come from a completely different direction, and REFUSE to allow my gov or any other to make me live in fear. Scum politicians all over are working on us to that end, so we will be easily manipulable objects.
Watching and listening to the bushblair duo & CO , those guys are so far off our moral planet that I now just regard them as “cases” to be studied, enemies to be opposed and exposed. Same for the globalisin dishonest scum here in france. They want to turn the clock back a century on workers’ rights and pay.
The Occupation in Iraq etc has created more terrists than there were before, anfd given military experience to many who did not already have it. link above.
DISINFO on palestine is common, and I’m ashamed of my countries that they have allowed themselves to be coerced by the US to cut off doctors’ pay, etc.
As usual that is the US shooting itself yet again in the foot, making more enemies. Tony Blair would call me anti-american , well he gets everything wrong, the little shit !
Now off to blairwatch to see what new nuggets of hypocrisy and stupidity the bloggers have unearthed .
Posted by frog on Jun 19, 2006 at 6:58 PM Frog,
re: VA and meds — My prescriptions from the VA are exactly the same as I received before I signed on with the VA. VA medical treatment is economically needs based and while I could use them for all care my portion of the cost is not worth it. For them to send me my drugs I must go in for a medical exam annually. (From them the cost is $7 each — I was paying $26 for one and $53 before.) I have been very satisfied with the service and professionalism of the staff. I see no (justifiable) reason every citizen should not be able to do the same.
The article about honor I found relevant for two reasons:
1. Osama’s comments indicating his disdain for the U.S. NOT responding militarily to the terror attacks in Beirut, Somalia, etc. which, I think, weakens Brig. Gen. Aylwin-Foster’s theory of the affects of employing lethal force.
2. The totally different ideas of what is honorable behavior is contrasted. Neither side appears to be aware of the differences and therefore continues to make dangerous decisions.
-------------“I come from a completely different direction, and REFUSE to allow my gov or any other to make me live in fear.”
What you perceive as fear on my part I consider prudence. (I wear a seat belt when driving and did before it became law). I see a necessity for people to do the same regarding terrorist attacks. In fact I think the Bush administration has fallen short on treating “Homeland Security” as seriously as they should.
For fear of causing panic, disrupting the economy (more important to them) they have avoided an open and honest presentation of possible tragic events. This sends a mixed message to the whole world much in the same way Saddam did regarding WMD. (He openly announced he had none and then, for the benefit of the potentially rebellious local factions and Iran, professed to still have them. We of course picked up on both and it was used to sell the invasion plan.
Some of us still remember a totally different approach after Pearl Harbor in 1941. In school we had paper and scrap metal collections. We bought Savings Stamps which when a book was filled became a War Bond (to finance arms and supplies for the services). At home we had “blackouts” and air raid drills — the AR Wardens walked around checking for lights showing.
While not all of this applies now, we could be training civilians to recognize the various symptoms of gas and biological attacks, stock antidotes and meds, etc. Instead we have stupid color coded alert levels and search little old ladies rather than do “ethnic profiling.”
No wonder you think we are nuts over here.If there is no attack there is no harm done — think of it as insurance. But if there is another more drastic attack there would be less panic and fewer casualties. It seems more sensible to me than taking the approach that if I ignore it it won’t happen.
Posted by whattheheck on Jun 20, 2006 at 10:21 AM Frog,
I went back to the “Honor” article and discovered I forgot to mention the most important part related to this web discussion —(Duh!)
It is this… (about 3/4 of the way into the story)
“Thus our politicians and diplomats, almost as much as our pundits and reporters, are inclined to look at the Arab-Israeli conflict in terms of anger. (through)...the old imperatives of honor that we have almost forgotten.”
Last night I watched a TV program called the Dog Whisperer. This man explains to dog owners that in order to make a dog obedient you must first make him comfortable as a dog.
To do this you must not try to make him behave as a human, you must learn to think like a dog.A bit of a simplification, but it seems to me that we, as westerners, keep expecting the Middle Easterners should behave and react as we would and they are doing the same. It just ain’t gonna work that way.
Posted by whattheheck on Jun 20, 2006 at 10:38 AM WTH
I wear a seat-belt too . Being fearful myself of road-accidents, knowing the statistics, I still belt up.I don’t need “training” if people stop dropping asphyxiated around me in the subway, French metro, or UK underground. Poison at work and with luck I may live !.
The only way you will have antidotes for 280mio Yanks is to devote half your economy to chem/bio warfare research and production, get everyone to build an extension on the house to keep them in, and accept millions of deaths due to the fact that the antidotes/vaccinations are more dangerous than the “thing” itself.
Gulf War Syndrome( ie dead and handicapped US veterans) was not invented by frog.
Rescue services need preparation and training, yes. On 7/7 as 911, radio equipment was inefficient / unworkable. Details like that do not need billions to sort out, but IF you let bushco in on the act they will cost billions.
This sort of basic preparedness is the same for ANY accident, a good investment.Nice to know you are still believing that it was “understandable” to believe that saddam still had WMD, because he said so to somebody, supposedly.
On your last post you subconsciously equate Palestinians and Muslimsand “Middle Easteners” to dogs.
I know that is unfair, and you did not really MEAN that. !
Try to do a small step-change, and listen to frog.
In the eyes of most of the rest of the world, your government is viewed as a bunch of Mad Dogs.
You may not like it, who would ?
I’m a brit and I regard Blair as a mad Poodle.Of course the Islamist maniacs who shoot women for not wearing the veil are mad, and evil, but so is the US government for making a situation where they are now free to do so.
Posted by frog on Jun 20, 2006 at 6:07 PM Frog,
After I posted the Dog Whisperer it occurred to me that it could be interpreted that way, but as you indicated, I meant both Westerners and Easterners are making mistaken societal assumptions about each other. (Either party could be the dog in the illustration.)
As to any government (present, past and future) — there are always objectionable actions. Some are mistakes, some stupidity or ignorance and some just plain reprehensible. I doubt there has ever been or will be a truly good form, but some are just less bad, less often than others.
I’m not sure there is any form which will be able to cope with the speed of change now and in the future.
“Of course the Islamist maniacs who shoot women for not wearing the veil are mad, and evil, but so is the US government for making a situation where they are now free to do so.”
The above statement assumes the worst possible motives are the truth.
Did we as a national policy set out to make this happen? It seems the radical Islamist have made their policy quite clear. (This is acceptable in their cultural view, but not ours.) We need to punish anyone condoning torture or any other conscious inhumane acts. This is our cultural view. Not all ideas are equal. I still think ours is better for all. Don’t you?
One suggestion to keep in mind: Most of today’s news media over here are really interested only in ratings to attract sponsors. They have become entertainment and interactive venues. I seldom read or listen when the headline ends in a question. To me that is not news, just noise. As a pretense of being fair they will get the most diametrically opposed to “debate” any issue. The moderates don’t pull an audience.
------------
I disagree regarding training for disasters whether natural or man-made. My army training dealt with chemical, biological and radiological symptoms ID and treatment. Obviously not all antidotes could be provided for all possibilities and you are correct about their misuse causing fatalities. The same possibility of misuse can be said of firearms, but proper training is the best approach IMO.Trained people — civilians or military — would have a higher survival rate.
As for the expense, it is relative — the benefit to the threat. (Just as investment balances risk and reward) If the 9/11 or 7/7 attacks had been nuclear, how much would the losses have come to? How much would it have been worth to prevent it or to same several thousand people?
Posted by whattheheck on Jun 21, 2006 at 8:05 AM WTH
We got a long way from hypocrisy and palestine.Iraq is now a dreadful nightmare for those living there .(Unless this is a spoof, it OFFICIALLY confirms everything Dahr Jamail and others have been saying for years. this lightyears away from GWB’s and Cheney’s upbeat messages to TV ) .
So are the various areas of the Palestinian Authority.
As invaders the Ocupying Powers are responsible for the consequences of their actions.
If you get drunk, drive and kill, no excuse that you were drunk ?I have seen no evidence or serious argument that this invasion was undertaken for any laudable motives, at all. That leaves the “worst possible ones”.
I completely agree with your
We need to punish anyone condoning torture or any other conscious inhumane acts. This is our cultural view.
Beginning with those easiest to get hold of, these would be POTUS, VP, Rummy and Condi.
Posted by frog on Jun 21, 2006 at 12:26 PM brit Supreme Court judge gives his opinion on Gitmo and creeping Fascism
Cutting off money that feeds kids and pays doctors is consciously inhumane policy. The Hypocrisy is in the words used to justify it, the arguments that sadly we gotta do it to defend ourselves against the nebulous terrists we are terrified of, the Islamofascists invented in our Think tanks.
Muwakkil attributes part of the failure of Secular political groups in the ME to outside intervention, correctly. WE definitely overthrew Mossadeq in IRAN, in 1953 (?), because he wanted their share of oil profits. Later on WE chucked out Jay Garner who, surprisingly (!) said “It’s THEIR OIL .
Unknowable now what would have happened to those secular political groups , those countries, because in our frenzy to fight the demons we perceived at the time, get slightly cheaper OIL, independent “nationalism” was as heinous to us us “communism”, we often conflated the two to justify bloodthirsty national policies.
And then you wonder that elements of ISLAM have been radicalised ?
Kill off the moderates, or terrorise them, make them emigrate, and who is left ?
Create anarchy, you encourage criminals and extremists.
Posted by frog on Jun 21, 2006 at 2:00 PM Frog,
Muwakkil Faults the U.S. and EU for withdrawing “...their support of the Palestinian Authority because voters elected Hamas members to represent them.”
By support, I assume he means financial as well as political. The EU gives $500 million per year to the PA — From Wikipedia (Note: this info is disputed by some)
Then he goes on to say, “Hamas refuses to abandon violent resistance to Israeli occupation and even denies Israel’s right to exist. Hamas’ behavior is hard to condone, but this disparate treatment is troubling to me.”
Wait a minute, he has trouble condoning Hamas’ wanting to eradicate Israel, but thinks we should support Hamas equally. What is with this guy?
Let me for the sake of argument treat U.S. foreign policy as if it has come from an individual for the past several decades rather than from multiple administrations with multiple motives and extenuating circumstances. (As you know, I don’t generally agree with this attribution.)
“We” have supported various dictators and totalitarian regimes (including Saddam) when it was expedient. This comes back to haunt us repeatedly. I assume Muwakkil to be critical of this past behavior. Now he wants us to “support” a Hamas government even though it has nothing to offer to a peaceful solution.(I have heard of no Hamas beliefs and aims changes.)
He does accurately identify the real war: “The Bush administration’s war on terrorism is really a conflict with a small clique of radical Muslims who have decided to wage asymmetrical warfare against U.S. interests.”“The Iranian revolution of 1979 that ousted the U.S.-sponsored Shah Mohammad Reza Pahlavi in favor of Ayatollah Khomeni heralded the emergence of a new paradigm of anti-colonial resistance in the Muslim world. Nationalist radicals adopted Islam as an animating ideology.”
The ousted Shah was one of those “We” supported. (unfortunately) and ultimately, Khomeni gave us a lot of trouble and his type of radical continues to do so. This action on our part is doubtlessly at least part of the cause of our current targeting by the radicals.
If territorial boundaries were the only issue and if Hamas thought as westerners do, Muwakill may have something going for his view. It is not like that IMO.
-----------------------------
“I have seen no evidence or serious argument that this invasion was undertaken for any laudable motives, at all.”It was pretty well accepted by the U.N. and a number of individual countries that Saddam was a vicious despot. Would you consider his removal to be a laudable motive? (Consider the motive only — not the current outcome.)
Posted by whattheheck on Jun 22, 2006 at 7:19 AM WTH
muwakkil does not write as carefully as he should.
hamas ain’t out to eradicate israel, any more than the mistranslated ‘jihad’ in iran.
hamas has had a ceasefire in place for how long ?Saddam was a vicious despot. IMO the invasion had nothing to do with that. Oher vicious despots receive US military aid, collaboration, as we speak. craigmurray-- uzbekistan --- have a look. ?
going for a swim, get away from this evilworld, brush away the cobwebs, seeya !
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