Was the Presidential Election Stolen?

Scorpy, you dear funny troll, your line about the rabbit panicking has been used before with similar pointlessness.  Word for word you have posted that obviously well thought out little bit of tripe, before.

Having ocasionally indulged in a bit of historical show and tell with the wacky foot gobbling antics of the old Scoop, this rabbit is feeling more and more tempted of an updated version, of:

Scorp, This Is Your Life, on ITT 

As has before been pointed out to the Scorpy Worpy, this rabbit has not got no need to panic.  Since it is you who is by far closest to the beast which you defend, and here in Oz we are somewhat insulated from the first and worst fallout from what is happening in your part of the world, the rabbit couldn’t really care less.  EXCEPT…...........................^^..........since Rabbit loathes the evil little bag of shit we have as a PM and his pack of bumbrothers in government, the more and worse your own particularly odious regime fucks up, and gets caught out in doing so, the better for the cause of one rabbit; this one in fact.  Since it is assumed that the fall of the evil Neocons in the United States of Avarice, will reflect badly on Johnny Howhard the personal scumbag groupie of Bush and Blair.

The awareness of the 911 fairy tale, and the actual facts which allow of no other interpretation than that the three WTC’s were brought down into their own footprints as controlled demolitions are designed to do, is growing and here is another two litle tidbits, fresh of the press for Natty the desperate shill and her new found mate Scorpy the Rabbit’s personal pet troll.  As said, Rabbit has been privelaged to present piece after piece supporting his appraisal over this time but although the excellent Liar Natty the Bat has been recieving all this news from Rabbit during this time, she has never, ahad the single opportunity to present any news which was supportive of a fairy tale which has as its basis the claims only, of a thoroughly discredited adminsitration.  Incredibly the evidence, such as Video or onsite materials etc has either been destroyed or witheld by said government during the five years since.  evdidence itself of guilt in any court in the world.  Every new bit of evidence or information which arises pulls down the official story which never flew anyway, and or adds new people of substance to the rising chorus of voices demanding an independant investigation and consideration of the enormous amount of FACTS which have never been explained by the official account.  Not one for the offical lie. Now what would that say to anybody who was even able to think?  Oh the Natsky, (Scorp and Nat connected) will try perhaps to simply deny it, say Rabit lies and act as if that means anything.  Like is anybody but them dumb enough not to see through such tactics?

Rabbit is pleased to announce a new voice on behalf of truth. Looks like you better get to work and start sliming the Colonel with your particular brand of odiousness Natty.  Scorpy I guess you’ll have to stick to just knocking the site, Prison Planet.  Unless you want to jump on the Natty bandwagon of just claiming bias, dishonesty and drug addiction for anyone who points out the obvious paucity of the offiical fairy tale.

It also pleases the rabbit to announce another little brick drops out of the fake wall of lies.   Notice as usual, the new details only point in one direction, always away from the official fairy tale.

Scorpy you conveniently ignore the other two much more important links to concentrate on the less certain of the three, the photo. Apart from pointing out the shill tactic of avoidance the rabbit will oblige you all the same. The cut on the photo does not look like it is cut with an Oxy as much as it looks like a thermite and cuting charge job.  As far as your claims of having cut anything with explosives, forget it.  You have no knowledge of explosives or the theory involved even to be carrying this debate further.  Since no other real explosives experts have done so you will be the first. In fact all the demolitions experts who have commented on 911 have commented to the effect that it appeared in every respect to be an explosive demolition.  So Scorpy my puny minded opponent you are being a pioneer here.  Seems a bit far fetched laddy, even for a lying little denialist like you.  An Oxy cut you’d like to say?  Does the Scorp know the scale of those columns?  If they were cut with Oxy, the striations would be uniform and of a smaller scale than the few wavey sections visible in the photo.  More importantly as I’ve said, nobody trying to cut such a large section would make more work than necessary by cutting at an angle, like I said, poser, it aint a tree!

Scorpy it is dissapointing to Rabbit that you would sink to the level of trying to pass yourself of as knowledgeable in a field of which you have clearly NO IDEA.  Particularly irksome in that Rabbit has plenty of experience and knowledge in the same field.

The importaant point to note is that the photo is consistent with cutting and thermite.  On its own not much.  But the video of the explosions, as well as the pools of molten Iron, the witenesses to explosions, the CHEMISTRY analysis of some of the structural samples;  all of this has ALSO pointed exclusively to ONE possible conclusion, EXPLOSIVES WERE USED.  Your stupid red hering about not explaining how such charges were placed is way too late.  As Natty knows since we’ve dealt with it before.  The bomb sniffing dogs were removed from the buildings a few weeks before 911.  Witnesses have come forward with reports of people who appeared to be acting suspiciously before the date, Nope litle Scorpy, there is more than enough evidence to lend credibility to our scenario.  In the midst of all your denial of an overwhelming avalanche of facts destroying the official fairy tale, you fail even to produce anything new, anything even old which is irrefutable, which actually strongly supports your conspiracy theory.  Nothing yet which discredits anything which disproves the official story even. 

How many times can you kill one PIG?

Posted by Rabbit on Jul 2, 2006 at 4:25 AM

How amusing is it when someone like Natty says something like this? 

these guys are fascinating, really.  Why do they promote all this nonsense?  I can only guess that it’s some combination of hating Bush and/or the war in Iraq,

Natty that is so dumb! It just sounds so utterly foolish, so painfully stupid that Rabbit can imagine all the other sensible people must be chuckling like he himself is now doing.

Didn’t you know that it comes down to us hating Bush, hating the war in Iraq, and OBVIOUSLY, we are all communists?

This about says it.  Knock the “source” again Scorpy, go on. 

Now then WTH, how does Sally’s answer appeal to your sense of what is or isn’t?  It is you dear boy who is always going on about the internet not representing reality.  How’s them apples of reality? 

What was the term Natalie used so out of context above?  Oh yes,  Reality Bites  Thanx Nat.
Is Sally’s word enough for you or would you like to tell us she too is just a figment of imagination, electronic trickery? 

What makes some people think that anyone EXCEPT vested interests like the government would ever waste time and effort trying to bullshit people on the web? Personally I had already guessed that Sally knew much more of Carol Fisher.  Again WTH, no magic or intuition, merely reading closely what is said and how.  The bottom line is either one is alert and awake up to the world around one, or else one is living in a daze.  Guess which one Rabbit thinks is your own state?

Posted by Rabbit on Jul 2, 2006 at 4:30 AM

Winston Churchill

“If you will not fight for the right,” he once growled, “when you can easily win without bloodshed, if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not so costly, you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance for survival. There may be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no chance of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves.”

Posted by Rabbit on Jul 2, 2006 at 5:20 AM

Whattheheck, it is with a heavy heart that your friend the rabbit mentions the following.  Particularly because you seem to have gained some small measure of something by questioning the 750 presidential signing statements. That you would fall victim to transparent attempts by the RW wackjob sites to spin yet another disturbing bit of news about their fuehrer, is of no surprise to me, but that Redhorse and Frog would drop the ball on such a simple thing to check is surprising.

I was not aware there was any doubt about what the facts were, we all have search engines have we not?

Wikipedia Definitions leave no doubt.

The Bushling has made 750 “signing statements” even as he has signed that many acts of Congress into law. That is meaning just what it says, he has signed his own provisions, in most cases placing himself and his word above every law passed in each of at least 750 acts of congress.  That is quite accurately described as a complete usurpation of power.  Something which is a direct assault on your much vaunted piece of constitutional toilet paper.

Since 2001, Bush has objected on constitutional grounds to more than 500 provisions in over 100 bills
, a number approaching the 575 signing statements by all previous presidents combined, according to the Constitution Project, a Washington group of conservative and liberal legal scholars that promotes constitutional safeguards.

An investigative report in the Boston Globe suggests that figure is even higher—750 signing statements.

“Bush has not issued a veto in his six years in office. By comparison, President Reagan vetoed 78 bills, Bush’s father vetoed 44 bills and President Clinton vetoed 37”, said Charles Ogletree, a professor at Harvard Law School.

Interesting!

These are some examples of his nasty little signing statements. Read and weep denialists.

Posted by Rabbit on Jul 2, 2006 at 6:38 AM

Lapin Infatigable,

That wuz no ball-dropping, just a sign of faith in your goodself .

Since the rest of you didna turn up, WTH ‘n me finished the Haig, and agreed to disagree on some things, while reaching accord on many others.

Frog has since hopped away elsewhere, cross-checking sources on eleckshun electronics.

Posted by frog on Jul 2, 2006 at 7:18 AM

Rabbit just back from the two most wretchedly cold nights camping in his life.  Scout camp in the forest near here, young son forgot his sleeping bag so the father rabbit had to sacrifice his.  The frozenness of two nights was bad.  No sleep for the rabbit who just lay inside his canvas swag, with nothing but a jacket and long jeans to stay alive. 

Rabbit had a couple of Jack Daniels’ by the campfire before retiring the second night, but they didn’t help.  Haig Shmaig, I’d have settled for Straw Rum if it came with a warm sleeping bag or Doona.

Whatsky is a laddie for sure and the rabbit would be pleased to share a Haig or preferably a Chimay (Or six ) with him too.  Despite his cringing denialism, Whatsky is yet not totally a moron, and though his grasp of the overall picture is challenged, he doesn’t fail to notice that there is something wrong at least.

As for not sharing anything with the Vampire, or Tina tiny nut, Rabbit can only agree.  Scorpy might be allowed in company, but only if he stayed in his corner and kept his mutterings and abuse to a reasonable drone.

Every gathering has it’s lowest common factor and without Scorpy, WTH might be saddled with the role.

Posted by Rabbit on Jul 2, 2006 at 7:59 AM

Rabbit , WTH , frog…....Yes…Redhorse failed to check…as stated , got information on signing statements from Pacifica radio 89.3 FM…publicly funded radio is a major sources of under reported news stories , WPFW.FM is very balanced in their reporting CRscorp ,Nata-lie, even Tina can call in and have air time too ventilate thoughts…..Truth be told , I have never heard of signing statements before….interesting concept…Junior signs statements like a signifying monkey in one of them instant gratification experiments…the monkey hits a button and gets a treat…..Cheney standing there saying…do it again BoBo….do it again….
p.s….the radio station has a local neo-con named Bo….who calls in regularly to give his unvarnished perspective on world affairs…each caller is permitted one minute…most of the time , the phone line is busy….no one is screened…they do ask you to stay on topic though…Fridays are pick a news story of the week..or month..or year for that matter….just keep it to one minute, please…

Posted by Redhorse on Jul 2, 2006 at 8:51 AM

Hopper, you remind me of many freezing and wet nights under a groundsheet unmodified since WW1, shelter-half maybe for wth.
goons in the block mate remember wth is going inside with us. the enemy of many of my enemies.  and did you see the video . off to brushcut a little in the coolth of evening

Posted by frog on Jul 2, 2006 at 9:01 AM

Yo Redhorse…........and Frogling…

Having read in Rense several days, nay a week since of these heinous statements of the signing, the rabbit knew since no retractions or alterations has come to light since, the story was likely on the mark.

Trust our proven news sources, since they are self regulating, in a way which should belong to the media in general.  Jones and Rense conform to a standard of truthfullness in reporting which means if something theyr eport turns out to be wrong the retraction/corrction soon follows.  Search Engine Google or Altavista is good enough to soon sort out the truth from the crud. 

Thanks to someone else:

JABBERTALKY
With apologies to Lewis Carroll

`Twas brillig, and the slithy Roves
Did Snow and Cheney on the tube:
All flimsy were the Neo-cons,
And the George Wraths outgrave.

“Beware the Jabbertalk, my son!
The sounds that bite, the talk that point!
Beware the Malkin bird and shun
The frumious Coultersnatch!”

He took his Froomkin sword in hand:
Long time the Factor foe he sought—
So rested he by the Dumbdumb tree,
And stood awhile in thought.

And, as in Bushish thought he stood,
The Jabbertalk, with tongues of flame,
Came Rushing through the TV wood,
And Savaged as it came!

One, two! One, two! And through and through
The Froomkin blade went facty-fact!
He left it dead, and with its head
He went galumphing back.

“And, has thou slain the Jabbertalk?
Come to my arms, my webish boy!
O frabjous day! Callooh! Callay!’
He chortled in his joy.

`Twas brillig, and the slithy Roves
Did Snow and Cheney on the tube:
All flimsy were the Neo-cons,
And the George Wraths outgrave.

Posted by Rabbit on Jul 2, 2006 at 9:05 AM

Sally,

I’m late in responding to your post describing the Carol Fisher case, presumably meant as a rebuttal to my point, that being that the U.S. has nothing on Iran when it comes to government oppression.  (BTW, Redhorse, you made a good point about some of the sordid history of our own country, but does that preclude us from ever helping or encouraging other nations to avoid our mistakes?)

Even if the story told by Ms. Fisher is accurate, it certainly in no way equates to Iran’s government ordered brutal crushing of a women’s rights protest, and your use of her seems somewhat misplaced.  Any attempt at dissent from the real theocratical regime in Iran is met by a brutal crack-down.  No wasting time with anything like freedom of speech or freedom of assembly, for such concepts simply don’t exist in the mind or laws of fundamentalist Islam. 

Here we have massive demonstrations about anything and everything the governent does or does not do, but the police are rarely federal government officials, and they are in most cases simply trying to keep things under control and protect the general public safety.  Sure there may be an exception or two out there in the vast acres of America from time to time, but anyone in this country has overwhelming freedom to fearlessly protest whatever and however they want within the bounds of not harming others, and complying with basic regulations.

However, it would seem that Ms. Fisher had her day in court, and according to a jury she apparently violated these bounds.  There are many claims made about unfairness on the part of the prosecution, and that is certainly not beyond the realm of possibilities, but until one has the opportunity to examine the court transcripts, the motions, the rulings, how can one really judge whether Fisher is noble, or whether she is playing the old police brutaliltly card and is just plain lying.

I’ve looked for the transcripts, but I can’t find them, only that Ms. Fisher is using their supposed high cost in order to raise money.  I’ve got a feeling that there’s only a nominal fee for a copy, however it’s not clear to me whether they are even availble for disbursement yet.

This is certainly not any kind of legal proof of anything as it pertains to Fisher, but I think it’s instructive on another level to take a peak into the mindset and tactics of those associated with, and marching under the banner of “The World Can’t Wait”.  This is an organization that was founded largely by radical Maoist communists, and it would appear that their approach is often inconsistent with the demeanor Carol Fisher claims she displayed the day of her arrest.  Especially relevant is page 3, which documents the unpeaceful behavior of those participating in a protest march sponsored by the WCW and RCP, and the relative restraint of the police.  Also instructive is the speech by the RCP guy on page 2, and the comradeship displayed between he and Cindy Sheehan, who is surely a goddess to Ms. Fisher.  There’s also some keen 9/11"truth” merchandise to interest Rabbit on page 1.

This is not to say that Carol is necessarily a communist, not that there’s anything wrong with that, but surely she must at least endorse the ends and means of that ideology in a general sense.  It’s not like she’s some college student that doesn’t know better; she’s in her 50’s.

cont…....

Posted by Natalie on Jul 2, 2006 at 2:21 PM

2nd part…...

I don’t think Bush, Cheney or anyone relishes the prospect of military action against Iran.  But wouldn’t it actually help the cause of peace if more of us would join in condemning this evil regime, as does much of their own population, speak with one loud voice and thereby perhaps help to negate the need for force?  Why must so many of us behave in such a way as to give hope to these oppressive, murderous, terrorism advancing clerics that indeed they are the noble ones, and that the capitalist, personal freedom loving g-string wearing west is the real problem in the world? 

Upon observing the attitude of folks like Carol Fisher and her tacit support for them, what keeps these 16th century barbarians from gaining strength of conviction, knowing that the American population is divided on doing anything that will substantially interfere with their plans to consolidate their fundamentalist Islamic and unfortunately also nuclear power?

Posted by Natalie on Jul 2, 2006 at 2:23 PM

“The bomb sniffing dogs were removed from the buildings a few weeks before 911”.

One of your fellow furry friends might take exception to that Rabbit, if only he still could.

As usual, the self-appointed al-Qaeda defense team takes a morsel of truth, waters it, grows it,  and then molds it to their liking.

Here’s another far more sensible perspective on molten waterfalls and molten rivers in the basement.

Posted by Natalie on Jul 2, 2006 at 4:24 PM

The Revolutionary Communist Party—wiki-

The RCP has been active in a wide variety of social struggles, including but not limited to: the fight against police brutality and mass incarceration of African-Americans, women’s reproductive rights, defense of Mumia Abu-Jamal, opposition to the Bush “regime”, and government authoritarianism.

SALLY
Do you reckon Natty the Shill is all for the mass incarceration of African - Americans ? And police brutality.

I do.

The posters on her link weree very funny, so thanks, Nat. We need all the humour possible to face up to life in Bushworld.

Can’t remember if your friend was a member of WCW ?
Musta missed it .

You see here her usual tactics of deflection, changing the subject and accusing anybody / everybody of COMMUNISM, and being Terra-Friendly..

WHO started talking about the foul regime in Iran , well it was Natty, to PROVE how wonderful the US is. Deflection.

Then she says how we should all denounce “this Evil Regime”, and “why the “libs”  here give hope to the murdering mothers”, and how Carol Fisher eats babies for breakfast.

The Iranians, especially and mostly   the Horrible ones, are sitting there, just watching and laughing,  as Bush creates one of the greatest FUBARs in History.

The Russians must be having a quiet chuckle as the Afghans start fighting the NATO Brits for the Fourth or Fifth Afghan War in 150yrs. And the Poodle Blair, who cares not a jot if a bright young capt from my old regt gets blown away.  .

How to lose friends and influence people, Bush USA world champions..

And so we see how we have been neatly steered away from the subject of bent elections, but I will be back.

Posted by frog on Jul 2, 2006 at 5:54 PM

Frog, as if you always stick right to the topic.

In fact, it was scorp who first mentioned Iran, then Rabbit responded:

“Iran is a saintly nation next to the evil SHRUB and his beastmen cronies.”

Which of course is ridiculous and so I then highlighted the oppression that the government of Iran exercises on its citizens, and compared it with the absence of such in the U.S. 

In fact this does all relate to election fraud in the U.S., because it’s very instructive to see a country that actually does brutally crush dissent, and does actually ban certain candidates from being able to run. 

You are full of criticisms, but you seem not to have many answers.  Please tell us what your course of action would have been, had you been in the POTUS’s shoes after 9/11.

Posted by Natalie on Jul 2, 2006 at 6:50 PM

Naty your shilling debunk site is too hollow for words.

They are not even debunking the right pictures.  The claims about thermite cutting sideways is a complete red herring and relying on dummies like you and Scorpy who need something to counter all the real analysis out there.

Thermite deflagrates at such a high temperature it softens the steel enough for the cutting charges to slice easily.  The effect is quite capable of going sideways, the metal in the reaction is in contact with the steel and conducts heat well. The explosives demolition of skyscrapers does happen, and basically your stupid little debunky site tries to relegate that to myth.  Hilarious.

Don’t waste your time, the Facts are not disputable and enough of them point to only one conclusion while rendering impossible your fairy tale along the way.

Frog I find the amount of information which is ignored by the Shill to be most amusing.  Still no word about most of it, as you say just deflection and never forgeting that the Shill started the 911 debate again to deflect from discussion of the Bushling fraud.

Of course outright lies are not beneath the Natty Shill Bat. She tells them sometimes in the hopes nobody will check or something I guess.

The Sirius dog site doesn’t actually reflect on the fact, as well it may be a complete load of bullshit, I’d say it is.  It resembles the other emotional memorial sites which dot the net, obviously there to re-enforce the lie.

Here is the Newsday excerpt:

Heightened Security Alert Had Just Been Lifted
By Curtis L. Taylor and Sean Gardiner
STAFF WRITERS

September 12, 2001

The World Trade Center was destroyed just days after a heightened security alert was lifted at the landmark 110-story towers, security personnel said yesterday.

Daria Coard, 37, a guard at Tower One, said the security detail had been working 12-hour shifts for the past two weeks because of numerous phone threats. But on Thursday, bomb-sniffing dogs were abruptly removed.

Individual viewpoints on the collapse:
The following individuals have expressed concern or doubts on the official story regarding the fate of the Twin Towers:

In a research report, entitled “Why Indeed Did the WTC Buildings Collapse?”, professor of physics at Brigham Young University, Steven E. Jones, writes “The ‘explosive demolition’ hypothesis better satisfies tests of repeatability and parsimony and therefore is not ‘junk science.’ It ought to be seriously, scientifically investigated and debated.”

In a letter to Frank Gayle of the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST), Kevin Ryan of Underwriters Laboratories, wrote “This story just does not add up. If steel from those buildings did soften or melt, I’m sure we can all agree that this was certainly not due to jet fuel fires of any kind, let alone the briefly burning fires in those towers. That fact should be of great concern to all Americans. Alternatively, the contention that this steel did fail at temperatures around 250 °C suggests that the majority of deaths on 9/11 were due to a safety-related failure.” Underwriters Laboratories is the company that certified the steel components used in the construction of the World Trade Center towers.

Van Romero, Vice President for Research and Economic Development at New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology, a major authority on the effects of explosions on buildings, has said “My opinion is, based on the videotapes, that after the airplanes hit the World Trade Center there were some explosive devices inside the buildings that caused the towers to collapse.” Romero has since retracted and revised his belief stating, “Certainly the fire is what caused the building to fail.” (“Explosives Planted in Towers, New Mexico Tech Expert Says”, Albuquerque Journal, September, 2001)

A June 13, 2005 article in the Washington Times, reported that former chief economist for the Department of Labor during President George W. Bush’s first term, Morgan Reynolds, said the official story about the collapse of the WTC is “bogus” and that it is more likely that a controlled demolition destroyed the Twin Towers and adjacent Building No. 7. In the same paper, however, Reynolds also questioned the involvement of commercial jets, stating that “North Tower’s hole wasn’t big enough for a Boeing 767.”

Former Assistant Secretary of the Treasury under President Reagan, Paul Craig Roberts, expressed his doubt about the official 9/11 story in the following statement: “I know many qualified engineers and scientists have said the WTC collapsed from explosives. In fact, if you look at the manner in which it fell, you have to give their conclusions credibility.”

In The New Pearl Harbor, Professor David Ray Griffin argues that the fact that WTC 2 collapsed first, when it appeared most of the jet fuel was ignited on impact outside the tower makes the collapse questionable. Additionally, he argues the impact of the second aircraft was not as precise as the first, suggesting less fuel would have burned in the central support area.

Before his death in Feburay, 1986, Minoru Yamasaki, architect and designer of the WTC, stated, “We designed the towers to take multiple 707 jet strikes.” The Boeing 707 was the predominant large commercial aircraft at the time of the building’s design. Jumbo Jets did not exist when Yamasaki developed the plans for the towers.

More on the Story-
One of the more commonly accepted ideas about September 11th is the notion that perhaps the United States Government knew of the impending attacks and failed to act on that knowledge. In the days and weeks after the event, the intelligence world was looked upon to explain what went wrong within their own community. The following reports are drawn upon to support these claims:

Shortly after the attacks, David Schippers, the chief prosecutor for the impeachment of Bill Clinton, declared, “Five weeks before the September 11 tragedy, I did my best to get a hold of Attorney General John Ashcroft with my concerns.” It is unclear exactly what warnings he is thought to have received from the FBI, but Mr. Shippers has said he received information warning of a terrorist attack planned for lower Manhattan using a nuclear device.

Author William Norman Grigg furthers the Shippers story in his article “Did We Know What Was Coming?” published in The New American. According to the article, three FBI agents interviewed confirmed, “the information provided to Schippers was widely known within the FBI before September 11.”

CBS News reported that Attorney General John Ashcroft stopped flying on commercial airlines in July of 2001 because of a “threat assessment” by the FBI. The Attorney General did fly at least two more times commercially after the assessment was given.

Two of the 9/11 hijackers from Flight 77 had lived with an FBI asset months prior to September11th. According to CBS News, “The CIA sent out an alert Aug. 23, 2001, naming the two as possible terrorists — but the FBI didn’t know the names of the two houseguests, who had moved out months earlier.” The Administration also could not agree to allow the FBI to serve a Committee subpoena and deposition notice on the informant. Instead, written interrogatories from the Joint Inquiry were, at the suggestion of the FBI, provided to the informant.

A high volume of put options were purchased in the days before 9/11 for both American and United Airlines. Put options were also purchased for Morgan Stanley Dean Witter, which occupied 22 stories in the World Trade Center. The Airline industry had been on unstable ground during 2001, and there were a number of put option spikes throughout the year. Although no evidence has yet been provided for anything sinister in these transactions, US intelligence agencies are known to monitor markets for signs of imminent, untoward events.

Rep Curt Weldon has asserted that over a year before the 9/11 attacks, a classified US intelligence unit known as “Able Danger” identified Mohammed Atta and three other future 9/11 hijackers as likely members of an Al Qaeda cell operating in the US. The team recommended that the information be shared with the FBI but the military’s Special Operations Command rejected the recommendation. (New York Times, Four in 9/11 Plot Are Called Tied to Qaeda in ‘00, 8/9/2005)

Posted by Rabbit on Jul 2, 2006 at 7:01 PM

Evidence of explosives in twin towers. 

The World Trade Center was destroyed just days after a heightened security alert was lifted at the landmark 110-story towers, security personnel said yesterday [September 11]. Daria Coard, 37, a guard at Tower One, said the security detail had been working 12-hour shifts for the past two weeks because of numerous phone threats. But on Thursday [September 6], bomb-sniffing dogs were abruptly removed.

Poor old Shill Bat, she has never ever been able to win a single point, not a single issue has she been right about.  So Sad for the Bat.

Again for the learning impaired.

The Independent reports that in late August, “security [is] abruptly heightened at the World Trade Centre with the introduction of sniffer dogs and systematic checks on trucks bringing in deliveries. No explanation has been given for this measure.” [Independent, 9/17/2001]

Newsday claims that around the same time, security personnel at the WTC begin working extra-long shifts because of numerous phone threats. However, on September 6, bomb-sniffing dogs are abruptly removed. Security further drops right before 9/11. WTC guard Daria Coard says in an interview later on the day of 9/11: “Today was the first day there was not the extra security.” [Newsday, 9/12/2001]

Janitor William Rodriguez later claims that he saw hijacker Mohand Alshehri inside the WTC in June 2001. [New York Observer, 3/25/2002] .

So it seems the Dogs, who are not actually friends of rabbits, agree with me, Natalie.

Posted by Rabbit on Jul 2, 2006 at 7:29 PM

Back on topic.

Computer programmer Clinton Curtis testified at the December 13th, 2004 Congressional hearing in Columbus, Ohio naming Republican Congressman Tom Feeney as the person who hired him to prepare vote-rigging software.

The question boys and girls is this: 

How many bits of evidence like disenfranchised democratic voters, massively irregular exit polls and whistle blowers like Curtis, does it take to make the case the elections were stolen?  How many times does evidence of fraud need to be found before it’s called proof?

Posted by Rabbit on Jul 2, 2006 at 8:02 PM

Natalie -

Thank you for the excellent cites on 09/11.  Parts of the geocities site agree quite closely with the tms.org info I posted on 30 June concerning the floor joists giving away, resulting in instability of the columns when cross-bracing was lost, and consequently in the apparent pouring liquid.  This certainly is a more credible scenario than the vast left-wind conspiracy theories.

I am afraid that our good acquaintance Lagomorph is in permanent panic mode.  Every time he is presented with information he can’t answer, he gets more long-winded, more shrill, and more out of touch with himself.  He made four straight posts to my previous effort, with about 2000 total words.  Lagomorph included three new citations in his posts: the irrelevant opinion of a military officer, the irrelevant credibility of an eyewitness to the Pentagon crash (at least Lagomorph is not claiming that the Pentagon was hit by a missile, as some have said), and an irrelevant cartoon, of all things.

Lagomorph kept talking about “facts”, without presenting or citing a single new fact, just retreads of his old disproven stuff.  I find it curious that Lagomorph has abandoned all pretense of thinking, and relies utterly on dishonest and corrupt sites (Rense!) to do his thinking for him.  There is no accounting for taste.

Posted by scorp on Jul 2, 2006 at 8:49 PM

You’re welcome scorp.  Those two sites (911myths and debunking9/11)  are probably the best out there that I know of fighting this insidious paranoid mental infection.

Usually their introduction prompts such deep responses as:

“Naty your shilling debunk site is too hollow for words.”

or “your 9/11myths site is crap”.

The TMS.org document you linked to, the Popular Mechanics article and even the NIST final report have been “thoroughly debunked”, according to these experts in everything except the pertinent fields.  There’s not a single legitimate metallurgist, structural or even fire engineer among them.  Oh yeah, a doughy white Mormon physicist.  (Not that there’s anything wrong with that!)

They are kind of entertaining, actually, until one realizes just how much they are warping the realm of reality in so many unsuspecting minds, and in effect exonerating the true criminals of 9/11.

I wonder just how Rabbit would react to someone accusing him of murder, using the most far-fetched and tenuous evidence you can imagine.  I would think that his lawyer and a jury would demand some extremely solid proof for making such a serious accusation.  I would imagine that people testifying on technical aspects would be expected to be experts in the relevant fields—not some other.

I would assume he would be nothing short of livid that people would put up websites to document for the world all this baseless and ridiculous evidence against him.

Posted by Natalie on Jul 2, 2006 at 11:59 PM

Pair of idiots!

Scorpy the stupidity of this statement is patent.

This certainly is a more credible scenario than the vast left-wind conspiracy theories.

The explanation by controlled demolitions is supported by ALL of the above mentioned evidence and the controlled demolition is not only theoretically the only way three skyscrapers could fall into their own footprints, it is also Historically the only way it has ever occurred.  To say that a theory which is admitted even by it’s own authors as being highly improbable, is more credible than something which is theoretically possible, historically proven and witnessed by many people as well, is so ridiculous.  Absolutely farcical.

You cannot even produce a credible scenario whereby WTC 7 collapsed as it did.  Nobody can or has.  As usual what you pair like to get excited about is nothing moe than selected details.  It is what you ignore which tells us most about what you know you have no answers to.

If your faux scientific analyses are so convincing how come nobody is being convinced?  The hard core supporters are all there ever is or was.  The people are falling away from the official fairy tale faster and faster.

Do you dream of the government one day actually producing some of the large amount of evidence being witheld which will actually finally give some credence to the historically farcical fairy tale?

Do you imagine in your fantasies that people will actually finally start to believe the official conspiracy theory?

Since we have assembled a legion of evidence which supports the main contentions of the case that the government was involved and that the buildings were demolished with explosives, and since the government has admittedly nothing except unlikely theories about their proposed scenario, don’t you think it’s time it started assembling some sort of evidence if there was any? 

Your case has nothing but theoretical musings, which are not supported by the facts.

Our case is fully supported by virtually all the facts.  Even the small details which once might have supported the offical lie a bit, are as shown above gradually being discredited and dropped from whatever tiny arsenal of evidence you could have relied upon even to establish fairly minor details.

You characters crack me up with your stubborn and utterly unconvincing denial of reality.

Posted by Rabbit on Jul 3, 2006 at 12:25 AM

I wonder just how Rabbit would react to someone accusing him of murder

If I was guilty of the murder I guess I’d have to resort to ad-hominem attacks, smoke and mirrors and lying to try and cover the fact, just like the Junta is doing.  If I was rich enough I might even employ shills like you to help cloud the waters, and keep on repeating the lies as if repetition alone will achieve something, it would be worth a try anyway if I had the money.  I would certainly be witholding and hiding or destroying all the evidence linking me with the crime.

If however I wasn’t guilty of Murder I think I would be determined to prove my innocence, don’t you Natty? . I don’t think I’d be keeping all the evidence of my innocence secret and hidden, do you Natty?

Now do you think nobody notices that all you ever do is attack the people whose opinions have been presented in detail and based upon provable facts?  Nobody has debunked Steven Jone’s work, not Griffin’s nor Reynolds, nor the many other credible and competant people who have spoken out.  All you ever do is make broad generalisations and atack them personally.  The tactic is disgusting, so dirty and obvious that it is very satisfying to see Scorpy actually crawling around down their in the filth with you Natalie.  If ever Rabbit wanted to see Scorpy making a beast of himself, it is done.

Very satisying.  Two shills with absoluetely no moral courage, no intellectual integrity and no chance of ever being taken seriously by anyone on this site again.

Gaze well on these animals WTH, and be glad.  There but for the grace of God and all that.  What better argument for the incredible blindness afflicting so many of your countrymen than two such deceitful little trollops.

Posted by Rabbit on Jul 3, 2006 at 12:52 AM

Welcome Rabbit,

these two individuals sure are fighting hard to defend the perfidious paranoid mental infection known as American Militarism.

I have some questions on that video, but it is worth seeing by others  Back to subject ! 

Posted by frog on Jul 3, 2006 at 1:07 AM

Funny old Scorpy, you are still ignoring the scientific analysis Jones refers to.  Still since it isn’t publically released yet you can pretend it doesn’t exist.  Even if the photo wasn’t actually of a charge cut column, it would not disprove the demolition theory AT ALL. 

Your claims about the video and the similarity to other controlled demoklitions are right off the mark. The WTC 7 collapse is identical to other controlled demolitions shown, and if you say otherwise laddie you are simply lying.

Where the North and south towers differ, is in that the explosions have been set off from the top down, so of course you don’t get the big cloud of dust at the base.  The internal columns have apparently been taken out, or weakened in the initial explosion in the basement before the plane hit.  There are more than twenty witnesses to this explosion in at least one building, and one person who was injured by this blast even. The way in which the buildings are brought down in the unusual reverse is one reason these collapses look a bit different to regular demolitions, and another is the sheer scale of these buildings which actually make the Squibs look smaller than they are.  They are there all right, and like you say they are interesting.  Trying to invent some new theory to explain them is poverty stricken, you poor baby.  Do you expect ever to be taken seriously Scorpy?

Not only do you ignore the witnesses even yet, you are also ignoring the seismic evidence.  The observed pattern of apparent blasts corrsponds with seismic data from two separate measuring stations.

Keep on peddling the bull though, nothing like watching a drowning rat struggle against the tide.

The popular mechanics article you dared to mention is old, and long since thoroughly debunked, scientifically too, not your idea of debunking which is to call the authors liars and drug addicts or something.  Properly scientifically answered.  Of course the fact that the source has also been found to be totally “connected”  and corrupted in this case is a matter of record, but not necessary when the science proved to be crap or based upon strawmen arguments.

Scorpy my posts are longer than yours because rather than just make a few unfounded statements and spout off like you, I actually do include the details and facts which you claim I do not.  I also include quotes and sources for my claims. 

Now if my only intention was to deny everything out of hand and avoid the truth, it would be easy to be brief like you.

Posted by Rabbit on Jul 3, 2006 at 1:17 AM

Natty Bat

Frog as POTUS after 911 is a lovely idea.

EVERYONE here, including you, is brighter than the Bush creature, and I can assure that frog would rarely if ever do the same things as bush, and usually the opposite.

The biggest difference between the Soviet and U.S. occupation is that since 1989, Afghanistan has become a total narco-state. Close to 80% of national income comes from export of opium and morphine/heroin. Washington’s allies (the Karzai regime and Afghan communists) are believed to be up to their turbans in the drug trade.

Sending troops to Afghanistan was marketed to Americans—and Canadians—as a crusade against terrorism, with nation-building as a sub-theme. Blaming “terrorists” for the current upsurge in fighting obscures the natural and inevitable growth of resistance to foreign occupation.

Eric Margolis

In my youth I knew many majors and colonels who had served their apprenticeship in warfare on the Indian NorthWest Frontier, fighting the wily Pathan as Rudyard Kipling called them.

Warfare was a noble sport for them, and there are stories that after the season’s battles were over, some even asked for the Campaign Medal. “After all, if WE hadn’t beeen so kind as to fight you, in this war arranged by the King-Emperor, YOU wouldn’t have any medals.”

Now the Armchair Warriors are revisiting the Afghan wars, , and coming up against REALITY, as Brit generals are pointing out to them.  British troops are no longer safe in their bases

Of course, if frog had been POTUS before 911, there may well not have been one.
All these ifs are a little silly, but fun .
Frog knows a little about the Secret Services, met quite a few socially, and I suspect would not have done worse than the bush regime.
Frog hates “yesmen”, and timeservers, and personally ambitious scum.

Frog would recruit language speakers, install them on the ground, but never engage in Falseflag ops .

Frog would not use the Agencies to engage in Terrorism. So he would not have created al qida. QED

Posted by frog on Jul 3, 2006 at 1:54 AM

This is a year old, but interesting…

BREAKING: NON-PARTISAN GAO REPORT CONFIRMS CONCERNS ABOUT SECURITY OF ELECTRONIC VOTING MACHINES !

The GAO report indicated that national initiatives to improve voting system security and reliability of electronic voting systems either lack specific plans for implementation or are not expected to be completed until after the 2006 election. According to GAO, “Until these efforts are completed, there is a risk that many state and local jurisdictions will rely on voting systems that were not developed, acquired, testing, operated, or managed in accordance with rigorous security and reliability standards - potentially affecting the reliability of future elections and voter confidence in the accuracy of the vote count”

bradblog

This is two-weeks’ old

ILLEGAL VOTING-MACHINES USED IN BUSBY-BILBRAY ELECTION (CA 50)

People across the political spectrum have begun waking up to the immense risks posed by electronic voting. For instance, conservative CNN commentator Lou Dobbs recently weighed in that,  “The security of our elections and the integrity of our democracy is in jeopardy. Nationwide, there is concern and even alarm that electronic voting machines are simply too easily compromised and vulnerable to fraud..”

And Diebold machines, which were decertified in California at one point, are probably the most controversial of all. Computer experts given even brief access to a Diebold machine have demonstrated how easily it can be hacked, with election-changing results. A highly detailed   “security alert ” about Diebold, issued in May by the nonpartisan Black Box Voting, warns:

” Based on publicly available documentation, source code experts and testing performed with the system, there seem to be several backdoors to the system which are unacceptable from a security point of view. . . .

good article to make you shiver

Posted by frog on Jul 3, 2006 at 6:44 AM

Redhorse,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signing_statement

Posted by whattheheck on Jul 3, 2006 at 7:00 AM

Frog,

Posted by whattheheck on Jul 3, 2006 at 7:04 AM

LATEST SECURITY VULNERABILITY IN PAPERLESS E-VOTING UNDERSCORES NEED FOR PAPER-TRAIL, AUDITING

A critical security vulnerability has been brought to light in Diebold touch screen voting machines, just as several primaries are about to occur.

In a May 12th New York Times article, Avi Rubin, a Professor at Johns Hopkins and Verified Voting advisory board member, said “I almost had a heart attack “ when he understood the nature of the problem. Michael Shamos, a computer scientist and voting system examiner in Pennsylvania, was quoted in the same article, “It’s the most severe security flaw ever discovered in a voting system.” Indeed, several experts have urged that the technical details of the problem not be discussed because it is so easy to exploit. Such recommendations are extraordinary, coming from a community that values openness and transparency on computer security issues.  Read more…  at VVF”

Posted by frog on Jul 3, 2006 at 7:17 AM

WTH
Good for you !

I think this thread needs to get back on target.. Me guilty, too.

And for me the real ones are   blackbox voting , and disenfranchisement. .

Exit - polls are an interesting detail, a diversion like signing statements, 911, Iran, Afghanistan (mine that one !) , police oppression etc.

My interest is not to criticise Amerrica, as you are realising,  just to see how the criminals COULD get and then hold power.

And then keep a weather-eye open for WHEN they start on US here in frogland , too, . (maybe they have already, and i’m out of date…)

As STALIN said, ” its not who votes that counts, its who counts the votes”

Posted by frog on Jul 3, 2006 at 7:32 AM

Natalie -

Can I call them, or what?

<blockquote>I am afraid that our good acquaintance Lagomorph is in permanent panic mode.  Every time he is presented with information he can

Posted by scorp on Jul 3, 2006 at 9:27 AM

Death Stalker Scorpion
Leiurus quinquestriatus

Powerful venom compensates for the scorpion

Posted by frog on Jul 3, 2006 at 10:19 AM

Good points all scorp, but let’s not be too hasty in dismissing eyewitness….er…..earwitness testimony about that terrible morning:

Keith Murphy—(F.D.N.Y.) [Engine 47] At the time, I would have said they sounded like bombs, but it was boom boom boom and then the lights all go out. I hear someone say oh, s___, that was just for the lights out. I would say about 3, 4 seconds, all of a sudden this tremendous roar. It sounded like being in a tunnel with the train coming at you.

Posted by Natalie on Jul 3, 2006 at 10:38 AM

Rabbit says:

<i>“The popular mechanics article you dared to mention is old, and long since thoroughly debunked, scientifically too, not your idea of debunking which is to call the authors liars and drug addicts or something.  Properly scientifically answered.  Of course the fact that the source has also been found to be totally

Posted by Natalie on Jul 3, 2006 at 10:53 AM

Nat and Scorpy, no matter how much you pair of professional liars ignore the facts and the paucity of your arguments, nothing changes.  You are convincing nobody, and the numbers of people waking up to 911 are increasing, constantly.

Frankly I’m sick of feeding you two shill trolls and am satisfied that more than enough information is posted to show anyone who does care, the truth.  Your combined dishonesty is apparent for all to see, and your fake claims of having achieved any sort of points made, is just that, fake.

Trying to spin what is posted by others, when what is posted stands yet to be checked, is really dumb.  NO buildings ever collapsed into their own footprints without explosives input, and even those who try to pretend it is possible, (NIST and FEMA) admitted their scenarios were actually highly improbable.  They had to because they are highly improbable.  There is so much evidence of what happened on 911, and though you both pretend none of it exists, it does, it is clear as a bell for anyone who looks.

Now Scorpy we know Natty is a shill, and many are beggining to suspect you may be too.  If indeed you are not, then the question is do you even want to know what happened on 911?  Since NO proof, no real evidence has ever been presented to support the official fantasy, it would seem you are stuck on Panic yourself. In panic at the scale of the lie and its ramifications, you may just be living in the 51st State of the USA.  The state of denial.  There is actually no doubt in the engineering world beyond bought and paid for liars.  As for the explosives in the WTC, the proof is in.  The chemical residues which you have been so careful to avoid mentioning, are proof positive.

The simple FACT is that nobody new has come forward with any support for the official lies, and nobody who has attacked those who have spoken out like Steven Jones, Morgan Reynolds or Ray Griffin, have ever even raised the actual points being made by these people.  Just personal attacks and repeats of lies.  That is a smoking gun for coverup of lies.  Never has anyone actually questioned the science of Jones’ report, because they cannot.  They cannot because the science and all the history of building fires and demolitions, speak for themselves.  Lie and pimp till your hearts turn to mud, you are convincing nobody.  How obvious is it that people are lying when they withold all evidence and avoid any scientific discussion, when it is largely all about science?  Maybe to people who live by deceit, the answer is not obvious, but to the rest of us, simple.

On the off chance you might actually be interested in what happened and why, then Rabbit has found something which has the answers.  The story is long, and complex, but it is the answer.  It involves someone who was on the inside, and who has exhaustively collected an enormous amount of evidence, before blowing the whistle.  Read it all, or don’t.  I am not interested on your opinion of it, for it speaks for itself, and I already know you are determined to avoid the truth no matter what, you’ve proven this much.  The following checks out, I have just spent almost twelve hours researching the many details provided by Grove, and I admit my head is spinning with the immense amount of information.  One thing I can promise anyone who checks is it all checks out. So any denial by the shills must be seen as nothing but hollow lies.  Either they have checked nothing and merely will debunk anything which challenges the eminently ridiculous official lies, or they are doing their jobs, as paid shills.  In which case they will still not look at this story.

For WTH, I think you should make the effort my friend, because even though it is a scary story, and will not make your life better, it is clearly the answer to many things, and an intelligent person will come to recognise the essential truth, the overall scenario which is laid bare.

Besides which it is all checkable.  This may be the single most important story on the internet at the moment, for those who can follow its complexity. 

Why and who did 911. A whistleblower speaks out at last.  God bless and protect Richard Grove. 

To the people on this thread, Rabbit apologises for still being off topic, but this is too important not to be seen.

Beyond this, I intend to let the Natty and Scorpy rant on about 911 by themselves.  They have lost the argument, lost every point I could be bothered to challenge, and if I was waiting for an acknowledgement from either of them I’d be an old bunny long before that happened.  There is no bottom to human moral and intellectual degradation when it comes to cognitive dissonance and intentional deception for profit.

Is it a Rendon outfit you work for Natty?  I think it is actually since like all the most uncomfortable truths you have ignored that accusation completely despite my mentioning it quite a few times over time. I’d say she is Rendon. Scorpy I still think is to dumb to be a Shill, but who knows, they are probably scraping the bottom of the barrel these days.

Frog your information on electoral fraud is good, and I’ve been looking at it.  Actually Rabbit has followed the Brad blog for awhile and is familiar with much of it. As always my opinions of things are based upon research unlike some people we shall not name, which is why I have long since known the 2000 and 2004 elections were stolen.

Actually the Shills attempts to keep things off this topic, is obviously why they are busy wanking around on issues which have nothing to do with it, all the more reason to get on topic.

Baty Natty, the Scorpy made no points whatsoever, when you say good points like that it is funny as anything.  So pathetic one almost feels sorry for such feeble creatures that you could take a bit of ad-hominem or a bit of bombast as a “good point”.  As for you having proven Chris Bollyn to be dishonest, what a laugh.  The most profound liar on this site, cannot actually discredit anyone.  Of course Rabbit has already conceded that the photo was the least solid of the evidence of Thermite, but you have concentrated on it and it alone.  As usual at the expense of your integrity.

Posted by Rabbit on Jul 4, 2006 at 2:38 AM

WTH

I do appreciate your point about people only paying attention to information which supports their views.  So why do you do it?

Rabbit has before proven he is open to correction, and as far as the signing statements issue goes, there is some discrepancy in the way they are being reported.  Your own numbers above are actually pointless. 

Now the figure of 750 is an estimate, many sources speak of 500+ which is still not denying the number could be 750.  Do you not realise that little cross next to the figures means the number given is lower than the likely total?

If you read the references I already gave for the figure I used, the answer is actually quite clear, the means and how they are counted to arrive at 750, is stated..  Please look at the following before you jump back in with your mumbo jumbo.  BY the Way, Wikipedia is NOT a final source on such things as this, and the means of its information gathering is the weakness which makes political info on Wikipedia suspect.  Of course by writing 130+, they kind of cover their asses.  But they could write 10+ as well and it would still be truthful.  It is the sort of stunt which is useful for helping people living in denial.

Now I’m not sure how many times you need the facts spelt out for you, but following are some attempts to clarify, because it seems to me you are getting stuck on this detail in the same way a barnacle sticks to a boat’s keel.  No doubt the reason is that you are yet struggling to leave the 51st state yourself. You really do need to read about cognitive dissonance.

Bush signing statements.

(CBS/AP) As a Senate hearing into President Bush’s prolific use of “bill signing statements” got under way Tuesday, the White House defended the practice, which tends to limit the impact of bills he signs into law, saying it helps him uphold the Constitution and defend the nation’s security.

“There’s this notion that the president is committing acts of civil disobedience, and he’s not,” said Mr. Bush’s press secretary Tony Snow, speaking at the White House. “It’s important for the president at least to express reservations about the constitutionality of certain provisions.”

Signing statements are not new, reports CBS News correspondent Bob Fuss, nor is the power of the president to refuse to enforce a law he considers unconstitutional — at least until a court rules on it.

But a number of Democrats, and notably the Republican chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, Arlen Specter, say President Bush, who has never vetoed a bill, has abused signing statements as part of a pattern of taking greater powers.

Such statements have accompanied some 750 statutes passed by Congress, including a ban on the torture of detainees and the renewal of the Patriot Act.

Before you compare this to other presidents you need to be sure they to are being counted on the same basis, obviously.

MSNBC

Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Arlen Specter opened hearings today on the signing statements. Bush has used the statements on some 750 statutes passed by Congress, including such high-profile issues as a ban on torture and renewal of the Patriot Act.

There is no dispute with thes figures WTH, if there was don’t you think such obedient mouthpieces as CBS and MSNBC, would have been mentioning it by now?

George W. Bush issued 23 signing statements in 2001; 34 statements in 2002, raising 168 constitutional objections; 27 statements in 2003, raising 142 constitutional challenges, and 23 statements in 2004, raising 175 constitutional criticisms. In total, during his first term Bush raised a remarkable 505 constitutional challenges to various provisions of legislation that became law.

from John Dean quoting Phillip Cooper “a leading expert on signing statements” from his 2002 book, By Order of the President: The Use and Abuse of Executive Direct Action

Now WTH, it isn’t as if the rabbit minds helping you to see the truth, but you could have found all this for yourself, if you had not been determined to merely find something which made you feel less afraid.
Mate, if the number was only 130, then I’d happily concur.  But the methods used to arrive at that figure would have made the numbers of other presidents MUCH lower than the figures you give too.

I think you’ve had this one, and it details a few too.  Again the number is about 750.

The following is by LAURIE KELLMAN - Associated Press
June 27, 2006

http://www.nysun.com/article/35129

WASHINGTON - The Senate Judiciary Committee is opening hearings this week into what has become the White House’s favorite tool for overriding Congress in the name of wartime national security - signing statements.

“It’s a challenge to the plain language of the Constitution,” the committee’s chairman, Senator Specter, a Republican of Pennsylvania, said in an interview with the Associated Press. “I’m interested to hear from the administration just what research they’ve done to lead them to the conclusion that they can cherry-pick.”

Apparently, enough to challenge more than 750 statutes passed by Congress, far more than any other president, Mr. Specter’s committee says.The White House does not dispute that number, but points out that Bush is far from the nation’s first chief executive to issue them.

  Maybe not, but he is the first to use them on virtually every bill he ever signed.  The clue to his intentions is in the afct he’s never vetoed anything.  I’ve said it before WTH, how you have survived as long as you have with such alevel of gullibility is beyond me.  Maybe its just selective gullibility.  Gullible when the old fear factor kicks in.

The following is from your Wikipedia article, and since it was there all along, I think you’ve been a naughty WTH for being so selective in your quoting of it. I repeat your own quote of it, to point out what you are ignoring. 

Wikipedia

The first president to issue a signing statement was James Monroe. Until the 1980s, with some exceptions, signing statements were generally triumphal, rhetorical, or political proclamations and went mostly unannounced. Until Ronald Reagan became President, only 75 statements had been issued. Reagan and his successors George H. W. Bush and Bill Clinton made 247 signing statements between them. As of 2006, George W. Bush has issued over 130 signing statements containing more than 750 constitutional challenges.

So it seems we may be talking at cross purposes here.  I’d guess that virtually nobody, including you, knew what a signing statement was this time last year anyway.  The issue is with 750+ statutes which are being undermined by the closest thing to a dictator any country could have and still kid itself it has a democracy. Exactly how many times the Bushling has signed his name is hardly consequent.  OR is the actual important thing to you the usage of the word signing statement? 

Do the semantics matter?  The Bushling is riding roughshod over 750+ statutes. Only you know how important your congress’ bills are, but surely they should be more important than a school report card, where mum or dad attaches a comment?

Here we have a sound comparison, apples with apples.

Bush supporters note that previous administrations had made use of signing statements to dispute the validity of a new law or its individual components. George H. W. Bush challenged 232 statutes through signing statements during four years in office and Clinton challenged 140 over eight years. However, George W. Bush’s 130 signing statements contain at least 750 challenges.  In the words of a New York Times commentary:

And none have used it so clearly to make the president the interpreter of a law’s intent, instead of Congress, and the arbiter of constitutionality, instead of the courts.

One of the signing statements which has attracted most controversy is the signing of the McCain Detainee Amendment, prohibiting cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment of detainees in U.S. custody:

“The Executive Branch shall construe [the torture ban] in a manner consistent with the constitutional authority of the President to supervise the unitary Executive Branch and as Commander in Chief and consistent with the constitutional limitations on the judicial power.”

Bottom line, WTH, is that the Bushling has done more to undermine the separation of powers and the constitution of the United States of Avarice than all other presidents combined it would seem.

Now hopefully you are getting the picture and rather than nitpicking the semantics of it, you should perhaps be forming an opinion about the significance of it all.  I would point out again that the Bushling has not vetoed anything.  That is a serious clue about the intent of his signing statements if you are thinking.

Posted by Rabbit on Jul 4, 2006 at 3:13 AM

Actually WTH, since you are a nitty picky fellow, you probably are more woried about the semantics, so out of a sense of generosity, Rabbit shall give you the point.  Bush has issued 130+ signing statements.

The figure of 750+ relates to the number of statutes being affected, which is more than all other presidents combined.  It is the important number though and not the number of actual signings themselves.  Unless you are concerned with the amount stationary being used. 

It is apparent we have all been talking at cross purposes here, but due to our previous ignorance of signing statements not any desire to decieve or be decieved.  It has nothing to do with only looking at information which we desire, but as I hopefully have demonstrated to you, defining what the facts are.  I trust that we have now got these facts into a format we can all understand.

Posted by Rabbit on Jul 4, 2006 at 4:07 AM

Richard Andrew Grove.  Another computer programmer with a psychedelic imagination?  Perhaps he’s a friend of Peter’s.

A structural enginner, preferably without a drug habit (not that there’s anything wrong with that)  would be who you’re looking for.  Someone who’s actually QUALIFIED to challenge the NIST final report and does so successfully is your only ticket out of Art Bell’s basement.

Posted by Natalie on Jul 4, 2006 at 4:36 AM

Rabbit , WTH…..Not at first knowing what a signing statement is ,Redhorse is not surprized that the facts are somewhat convoluted , obscure . Given the secrective nature of this regime , and the overt duplicity , signing low and playing high , appeared to be the solution to the discrepancy in actual numbers of statements signed….
WTH , you seemed to be doing so well , making progress…in weaning yourself from the cobweb of deception that so many amerikans suffer under…I sense some disturbance in your critically analysis skills…Is everything well on the home front., family ok ?
No pun intended…..........

Posted by Redhorse on Jul 4, 2006 at 4:46 AM

Looking at Bush’s signing statements, it would appear to me that he is merely stating some basic facts as pertains to who is granted power by the constitution to manage issues relating to war, foreign policy, and issues involving his cabinet.

It is the congress who should be faulted for making so many statements necessary. 

I would imagine that had Al Gore been president on 9/11, and congress sought to tie his hands while he was trying to protect the nation from another terrorist attack,  he likely would have had 750 things to say as well.

This is why we have one president, not 535.

Posted by Natalie on Jul 4, 2006 at 4:53 AM

Nata-lie…Do you really believe this nucklehead cares about keeping you safe…news flash…this is an invasion ,an occupation of another sovereign nation…nothing to do with protecting you or me…If anything the US is in more danger now than ever before…..

You see what I’m talking about WTH , Natty thinks this whole nonsense is about safety…this broad is delusional…all caught up in believing something that is not so….
My guess is Al Gore would not have invaded Iraq in the first place…Natty baybee…............
Truth be told…9/11 may never have happened if Hollywood Al ” the wife kissing bandit ” Gore was in the White House..

Posted by Redhorse on Jul 4, 2006 at 5:09 AM

“As for you having proven Chris Bollyn to be dishonest, what a laugh.”

This is incontrovertible proof that Chris Bollyn is a deliberately misleading journalist.  In fact, the words “journalist” and “Chris Bollyn” shouldn’t appear within a hundred miles of each other.  Out of all the “truth” articles that have abused and misused Bill Manning’s Fire Engineering editorial from Jan. 2002, this particular article is far and away the most blatant.  Instead of simply leaving out the key sentence that would of course make referring to Manning’s editorial counterproductive in the first place, as does Steven Jones, Bollyn actually uses part of the sentence and weaves it in and out of his own words to create his desired outcome:

Manning challenged the theory that the towers collapsed as a result of the crashed airliners and the subsequent fuel fires, saying, “Respected members of the fire protection engineering community are beginning to raise red flags, and a resonating theory has emerged: The structural damage from the planes and the explosive ignition of jet fuel in themselves were not enough to bring down the towers.”

An eyewitness to the collapse told AFP that as he stood two blocks from the World Trade Center he had seen “a number of brief light sources being emitted from inside the building between floors 10 and 15.” He saw about six of these brief flashes, accompanied by a “crackling sound” immediately before the tower collapsed.

World according to Bollyn

From the last paragraph, it’s clear that Bollyn is attempting to imply that explosives were planted in the building.  But what’s not clear to the unsuspecting reader is the fact that in order to support his implication, he has seen fit to butcher and manipulate the words of Manning, to the point of actually making nearly the opposite point that Manning was trying to make.  Bollyn reconstructs the editorial to read as if Manning doesn’t believe that fire of any kind directly caused the collapse.  But in reality, Manning said that his theory was that the content fires resulting from the jet fuel bomb did “directly cause the collapses in an alarmingly short time.”

Again, in context:

“However, respected members of the fire protection engineering community are beginning to raise red flags, and a resonating theory has emerged: The structural damage from the planes and the explosive ignition of jet fuel in themselves were not enough to bring down the towers. Rather, theory has it, the subsequent contents fires attacking the questionably fireproofed lightweight trusses and load-bearing columns directly caused the collapses in an alarmingly short time. Of course, in light of there being no real evidence thus far produced, this could remain just unexplored theory.

And this is a source that Steven Jones uses in his supposedly peer-reviewed, scholarly scientifically based paper.  Is Jones really this naive to cite such deliberate dissemblers as Bollyn, or is he of the same mind?

Posted by Natalie on Jul 4, 2006 at 5:09 AM

Redhorse,

I didn’t say that Gore would necessarily have gone into Iraq.  But surely you would agree that he would likely have had a strong response to 9/11 and would have sought many of the same intelligence gathering, prisoner detainment and finance tracking powers as has Bush, or at least I hope he would have. 

If congress had put out legislation that conflicted with those powers, which very argueably belong to the president alone, I certainly hope he would have had something to say.

My point I guess is that to compare the recent history of signing statements without taking into account the extraordinary events and aftermath of 9/11 is kind of silly.

Posted by Natalie on Jul 4, 2006 at 5:23 AM

Ha Ha Ha

Natalie you are indefatigable and without any honour or honesty.

You have not even had time to read what Grove says.  It is all verifiable anyway, no imagination deary.  But you have attacked the guy without even looking at it.

How much more proof is needed that the truth is NOT in Natty’s interest.
You actually think your pathetic little denial made any difference to anything?  You are a joke.  A sad pathetic litle joke.  Besides which you are the most loathed and disrespected creature most of us have ever come across.  That is why its such a pleasure to see the eminently disreputable Scorpy swimming in the filth with you.  Neither of you have any credibility, but together you are just a sack of mucus in a field of rancid lying pus.

Foolish little denier Natty, the signing statements are patently more than merely clarifying things.  For the most part they completely undermine the point of the statutes, and various examples are included above. Of course you are right in that for example on the Mc Cain bill about torture the Bushling clarified that he intends to keep on torturing, is that what you meant by clarification?

Spin it Shill, spin it some more, show us how low you can go, shill.  Crawl on the floor, act like a whore, show us how much the truth is no more.

Natty you and the disgusting cockroach Scorpy, really should stop playing around with the least important of three pieces of evidence.  Will it help you get over it if Rabbit agrees the Bollyn source PROVES NOTHING?  Because I’ve admitted ages ago it isn’t irrefutable, but the witnesses, are iirefutable for there are so many of them, and cherry picking one fireman out of hundreds of witnesses to the explosions, some even BEFORE the plane hit, is in combination irrefutable.

The analysis of video footage and comparison to known explosive demolition and the analysis of the actual fall, including the impossibly short time, about the speed of gravity, is damned solid evidence.  The fact that the Chemical analysis is now done on structural material is the most absolute of course and that is why you cannot bear to face up to it.

I don’t give a fuck about the photo.  Experts have stated it is not an Oxy cut. I happen to be something of an expert in that field too and can say it doesn’t look like an OXY cut for the reasons given and finally, Bollyn’s credibility is not the issue, the photo is.  Still drop the photo, it proves nothing on its own, which is why you pair of liars would stick to discussing it alone while ignoring all the rest.

Natty you are creeping into weirdsville again.  .  Steven Jones used no such sources as Bollyn for his scholarly review.  The accuracy of Jone’s analysis has not been questioned by anyone, some questionablecharacters attack the man, but ignore what he says.  When you can come up with ANYONE who actually addresses the review and analysis by Jones, let us know, until then you really should stop making such a pathetic fool of yourself.  We already know you have nothing except character attacks to use.  Do you have to keep on showing your moral degeneracy?  Its disgusting of course.

I repeat there has not even been any attempt by anyone to critic the review by Steven Jones.  Who by the way, is clearly a man of integity and honour.  He is also highly qualified to make the report he has done.  Find someone who can debunk the science, or don’t.  But if you don’t then the assumption even for those unable to understand the science, is that the science stands.  Who then cares what a denialist Shill can say about a man of excellent reputation and respect in the community. How revolting a human being you are, to throw hate and mud at anybody who challenges a competely farcical and totally UNPROVEN conspiracy theory by the most historically dishonest administration in the world.

Has it escaped your notice that the FBI admits it has NO EVIDENCE of Bin Laden’s involvement?  NONE.  Anyway, the Link to Andrew Grove’s story is the final nail in the coffin.  Your lie just hit rock bottom.  Now it is only a matter of time.  Not only do we know how the buildings were brought down, we now know why and by whom. Read it all or don’t but others will, and isn’t it supposed to be others you are meant to be convincing?  You are not just trying to shore up your own pathetic imaginings like the Scorpy, after all. You are a shill, you have work to do, and you are not performing really.

Redhorse, do not be surprised at the apparent braindead condition of the Bat.  She isn’t a person for whom truth about these issues matters at all.  She is a real live government shill and has long since sacrificed her credibility on ITT.  She shills for the official line and will change her whole story the second the admin changes it’s. She calls everyone who challenges the lies a drug addict and a Bush hater, as if either in any way alter the facts of what these people are saying.  She refers to official propaganda sites to make her few small points and ignores anything to which she has no answer. She will play this game for many many days and then finally when the heat is off she will slip back in and simply make some spurios claim about what she previously ignored, as if she’d never heard it before that moment. 

Really she is the archetypical SHILL.  Scorpy may be also, but actually I think he is just a denialist moron.

Posted by Rabbit on Jul 4, 2006 at 5:52 AM

<i>Truth be told…9/11 may never have happened if Hollywood Al

Posted by Natalie on Jul 4, 2006 at 6:15 AM

“I don’t give a fuck about the photo.  Experts have stated it is not an Oxy cut. I happen to be something of an expert in that field too and can say it doesn’t look like an OXY cut for the reasons given and finally, Bollyn’s credibility is not the issue, the photo is.  Still dop the photo, it proves nothing on its own, which is why you pair of liars would stick to discussing it alone while ignoring all the rest.”

Boy, that’s some paragraph.

I don’t care about the photo
the photo is the issue
drop the photo, it proves nothing

How can Bollyn’s credibility NOT be an issue when you and Prof. Jones and so many “truthers” cite so many articles by him?

Rabbit, you type so much that it’s physically impossible not to ignore much of it.  However, whenever I have pinned you down on an issue, you say:  “it proves nothing on its own”.

A reliable theory cannot be constructed from huge numbers of falsities.

BTW, I downloaded the mp3 by Grove and I will listen to it.  I did read through your link, albeit skimmingly.  Glad you’re back to your perky old self.

Posted by Natalie on Jul 4, 2006 at 6:28 AM

Natty

I just looked at the article by Bollyn and surprise, surprise you are telling lies.  Nothing about Bollyn’s article is misrepresenting anything. 

He neither misquotes nor misuses anything said by Manning. 

Manning simply says that the FEMA investigation is a load of shit, which is what virtually everyone says. Bollyn doesn’t make any false claims for anything Manning says and you are just making that up. Anyone can read it and see. 

The rest of your post is crap. Rabbit admitted from the outset the photo isn’t proof, but it is consistent with the explosives theory. You are still ignoring the two other sources given so I guess you have no answer.  Why else would you go on and on about the most minor of the points?  I change nothing, it is you who spin and lie, and your lies about the Bollyn article are just another example of your lies.

I suggest you drop the photo because you are using it to ignore the real evidence, of which the photoc is peripheral, not important and merely consistent. I accept the photc as evidence of explosives cut and have detailed, in actual point for, why. Not merely made stupid half assed spurious claims like you do.  I don’t lie about what is written by others yet you continue to do so. You are as always the most revolting beast of lies.  How much lower can you go? 

Bollyn’s piece is factual, it quotes people, that is al it does, and yet you try to call that lying in some way? He doesn’t draw any bows beyond what people say, So once again, you are just a liar.

You actually posted the link to an article which you then proceed to misrepresent, how stupid does it get?

Natty, Jones does not quote Bollyn or use anything by him to make his case, where do you get this shit? 

Natty, you have not pinned me down on any issue. You have simply denied, and denied one minor part of one post for pages, all the while ignoring everything else, all of which was far more substantial.  If you were really struggling to keep up with it all, then I’d think it would be logical to stick to the most important issue, rather than as you do the least important. 

You are so transparently dishonest I cannot understand how you can live with yourself.

You did not read through that link. You did not skim through it.  The bloody thing is enormous, and as for the mp3 file, I suspect you are once again lying.  The last I looked the link to the mp3 is broken, and that is why the transcript is what makes up the bulk of that page.

I do wish you were not such a big liar, It makes communicating with you the most pointless exercise in the world. I will tell you again, that if you care to read it all, and by all means check the references given by Grove, you will have al the answers about who and why 911 happened.

Would it be so hard for you to actually face up to the more important fact that the FBO has no evidence of Bin Laden for 911?

Would it be so hard to stop carrying on about people’s motives and assasinating their character without any cause but that they are saying something you don’t like?  Would it be so hard for you to actually admit you don’t have a scrap of evidence for the official fairy tale?, for you have none, that is fact.

If you have any then lets have it.
By the way I am not to my perky old self, I am deeply depressed, virtually suicidal as it happens, due to personal problems, so do not be fooled by my online nature.  I simply value this truth more than my life just now.

Seriously, the Grove story is the finish. The answers not only for 911, but many things have fallen into place.  It is quite simply, the most shocking expose I have read.  Not that its a surprise, but the scale and the utter horror of the scenario laid out in black and white does take some getting used to. Twelve hours I have been looking at the details, and everything checks out.

Posted by Rabbit on Jul 4, 2006 at 6:35 AM

Natalie

Should the day ever come, when you decide to open your mind, and actually seek the answers, assuming by some chance you are not a paid shill, do not hesitate to let me know.  I will be pleased to apologise for all the well earned invective I have heaped so generously upon your worthless head.

Most of the loathing is due to the fact I am sure you are consciously lying and not merely struggling with Cognitive Dissonance.

For example everything you said of the Bollyn article was a lie.  Surely you can see this yourself, assuming you haven’t merely copied your argument from someone else. Go read the piece yourself if you have not.

This what I said when you first challenged the photo, which isn’t taken by Bollyn after all, merely analysed by him, as it can be by anyone. 

Pretending that the photo above is the only evidence of thermite or thermate as we now know, is disingenuous.  I referenced about the chemical analysis and the video footage also gives every appearance of Thermite explosions.  That’s three out of three.  The molten steel of course confirms the same thing, which is to say four major items of evidence pointing to precisely what explosive was used

How much more simple does it get. You are fiddling with the minnow of the issues and ignoring the marlins.  AND you have been doing it for a long time too.

Posted by Rabbit on Jul 4, 2006 at 7:00 AM

Frog,

I agree

Posted by whattheheck on Jul 4, 2006 at 8:22 AM

Actually Natty.  Things in the rabbit’s life have reached something of an impasse.  This very night things have come to a head, and it is this rabbit’s intention shortly to pull the pin on his small life.  Therefore this will be the last you will hear from me.

You are wrong about every matter we have ever argued, and I think you know it, but I do not care.  Soon none of this will matter anymore, soon I may have the answers to many things I have wondered about, but about the use of depleted uranium, or the real perpetrators of 911, there is no doubt in my mind, nor should there be in anyone’s who has honestly sought the truth..

I bid you adieu.

Frog, you will find a message on my site, for my friends.  I will also email briefly.

Posted by Rabbit on Jul 4, 2006 at 8:33 AM

From/to Rabbit,

You said,

Posted by whattheheck on Jul 4, 2006 at 8:39 AM

From/to Rabbit,

You said,

Posted by whattheheck on Jul 4, 2006 at 8:43 AM

You’re being a goose WTH, but Rabbit’s life is a bit too complicated just now for him to waste time trying to detail it all.

You just repeated what I already clarified WTH, did you fail to actually read what I wrote?  Signing statements is a word, what matters is the 750 constitutional challenges, which is more than all other presidents combined.  Whether we call them constitutional challenges or signing statements, that is semantics.  We all have only just learned what a signing statement is I expect, so your semantic argument is beside the point.  Besides which if you’d read what I wrote you’d see I gave you the point about the definition of signing statements.  Gave it to you.  But it would be nice if you would actually consider the ramifications of the number of statutes affected, and compare that with other presidents, as the Wiki article does offer, and I’ve quoted, and try to relate these numbers to other aspects of the Bushling’s presidency, which I already know you are generally unhappy with.

For example, he has made torture a matter of US policy.  A bill from congress tries to outlaw torture, and the Bushling adds a signing statement which asserts his intention to continue torturing.  The facts match the signing statement.  Torture is still policy.

Now you mention the supreme court ruling which the Bushling has indicated he intends to circumnavigate anyway.  I guess you are not paying attention.

The court just ruled on the torture signing statement and found Bush in the wrong.

So let’s see what dif that makes eh.

Posted by Rabbit on Jul 4, 2006 at 8:58 AM

Loquacious Lagomorph is threatening suicide.  I can well believe he is serious.  He has always shown an unstable detachment from reality. 

If anyone is in a position to intervene, this is the time.

Posted by scorp on Jul 4, 2006 at 10:33 AM

Nattythelie…Now let me be clear about this…Bushly the boy blunder takes office in an election in which Gladiator Gore wins the POPULAR VOTE…placed into office not by the people but by the Supreme Court…ok…now this fools granddaddy Prescott Bush , got in trouble for doing business with the Nazis…selling them superior steel and iron than what he was selling too the US military , the Gov’t confiscating 1.5 million in assets from the united bank…His daddy was dealing DRUGS , cocaine through Panamas Manuel Noriega useing the Ollie trolley as his cover…and now the baby Bushling comes into office with oil at 18 dollars a barrell and drives it up to ...what 73 dollars a barrel, regardless of the fact that both the Suadis, Bushies dear devoted friends and by the way bin Ladens family , state that they will sell at 43 dollars a barrell, and that they have plenty of oil…no shortage….AND….,Hugo ” the MAN ” Chavez….the current and still reining President of Venezuela…offers to sell the US…Venezuelan oil at 53 dollars a barrell, with 5 times the oil reserves of the Suadis….and Bushy tells Condi to say NO…basically because Mr.Chavez refusniks to kickback the petro-dollars too Bushling & friends….Invades Iraq , because Hussien no longer wants US dollars for his oil , but EUROS…and you gonna try to talk about someone being shady…baybee please , spare me the ribs…I’ll just take a glass of clear fresh water…ok
And speaking of airlines…didn’t the Suadi royal family fly out of the US , the day after 9/11 ; the day when everyone else in this country was GROUNDED FROM USING THE AIR WAYS , must have been for your security….right ???

Posted by Redhorse on Jul 4, 2006 at 10:36 AM

Wow Red, or are you really Michael Moore?

Do you believe in bombs in buildings also?  How bout missiles in Pentagons?

You certainly don’t believe in pargaraphs, (not that there’s anything wrong with that) and you don’t seem to believe in providing proof of much.

Speaking of shady deals, was it not Al Gore & co. that engineered a careless rush of immigrants into the U.S. just in time for the 96 election?  Public safety aside, forgive me if I disagree that there was no political motivation.  Not when it comes to these folks record on vote fraud.

You mentioned Venezuela, and I and others have mentioned Iran.  We would be putting our lives in jeopardy to openly argue such issues in Iran, and its looking like such arguments will not be possible much longer in Venezuela.

But at least gas is cheap there!  (I assume)

Posted by Natalie on Jul 4, 2006 at 1:10 PM

Drop it Scorp

Detachment from reality is not for me.  Rabbit has some very real issues which might have absolutely no meaning for thee.

It happens that someone intervened, albeit by distance and hopefully WTH can appreciate the “reality” of the internet, which contributed directly to this.  .....................^^....................

Yet I can detect a tiny drop of humanity in you Scorp, and since you are Rabbit’s personal troll, he would yet give you a tiny bite, of love.  Thankyou for your midget form of concerned humanity.  I’d rather you showed more concern to the runaway junta of neocon beastmen who are screwing your country from the right.

Since MY problems are nothing to do with anything we have ever spoken of, you can just drop it, since it seems I shall be here a while yet to kick your silly backside.  As for reality, my family has been the closest to reality I have known.  Without them, it is hard to imagine a future.  If you’ve ever known a marriage of twenty years to collapse, then maybe you can appreciate that some things can tend to be worse than others’ stupid delusions.  If not then kindly stick it where it fits least comfortably.

Redhorse you have the Natty shill to your self.  She has innuendo and lies to fill the shelf. Now she’ll try to lead you much astray, and hope by smoke and mirrors to confuse the day.

Oh and Natty, all that Redhorse just posted, is accurate, of course.  Prescott Bush was a Nazi traitor and so is the newest Bush.  Try to deny the facts and he’ll bury you under them is what I’d expect. Tomorrow if he hasn’t then I just might.

For now I’m tired.

Posted by Rabbit on Jul 4, 2006 at 1:33 PM

Bravo, Rabbit…

    Relieved to have you standing among us, peeking from your rabbit hole as only the rabbit can do.  Keep wiggling those wise whiskers.  I’m really happy you did not become a rabbit’s-foot keyring before your time.  You are a sane voice in this Madhatter’s tea party. 

Sallyb

Posted by sallyb36 on Jul 4, 2006 at 2:14 PM

On topic-  watch for Robert F. Kennedy’s lawsuits to be filed against two computer companies mid-July. 

Sallyb

Posted by sallyb36 on Jul 4, 2006 at 2:15 PM

Lagomorph -

I won’t be dropping anything. 

I can be concerned for your personal well-being while remaining utterly contemptuous of your left-wind ideology, your inability to think logically, and your abject surrender of personal integrity to malevolent and destructive influences, such as Rense. 

You are either playing or not playing, you are not setting terms for my participation.

Posted by scorp on Jul 4, 2006 at 2:48 PM

Rabbit,

I’m glad you’ve decided not to end it.  I certainly know first hand what you’re going through with the marriage thing, and in fact we share a Danish connection.  I know how hard it is for you now, but it will pass.  Please believe me on this one thing.

I think you know that I’ve always had a certain affection for your writings, even though I strongly disagree with your views.  You’re clever, funny and interesting, insults and all.

I hope you can agree that we, and in fact all of us here want the best for the world and its people.  There are vast differences in opinion on how to obtain it, but isn’t that what makes the world go round? 

Please, continue to share your perspective for many, many years to come.

I risk that you might reject this note in anger and disgust.  If that is your reaction, so be it.  Please believe me on just one more thing though.  I am sincere.

Posted by Natalie on Jul 4, 2006 at 2:48 PM

Thanks Sally

Rabbit is tired now and will maybe return tomorow.

Thanks, and know that Frog is the best.  Scorpy is just a little worm, but a kind of nice one.  He doesn’t hate the Chinese which is a good start for anyone.

Dammit!  OK Scorpy and Natty, I’ll wear it.  You both disgust me with your sleazery, and actually Natty you confuseth me, though I knew the nature of your secret love dear Bat.  Sadly how can I wack you now?  I shall try all the same, promise.  Could it actually be that Natty is not shilling just dumber than a tree?

If I don’t return it’s because the bloody rabbit has done the job better than it first appeared.

What is my life besides those lost in Iraq, and Gaza, the innocent and the weak.  Please save your sympathy for the truly meek.

Frog’s off to the pub, and does think I’m A OK, but actually the silly rabbit’s blood just will not stay, it stopped for a bit, and now is running away.  Oddly enough.  But I didn’t do no worse than I already had.  I promise.  If God takes Rabbit this night then it was obviously right.  So glad to have spoken to the other hopper tonight.

Posted by Rabbit on Jul 4, 2006 at 2:57 PM

POETIC RABBIT, sallyb, and other friends,

This hopper can’t even go for a decompressing few beers without coming home to be worried again.

Insh’allah.  Please God.

Taking the problems of this world, the problems and suffering of others, onto one’s own shoulders is what Humanity is about. 

IF we do not care if our neighbour lives, starves, suffers, or even dies, what are we ? What values do we have ?

Which of us wants to live in a gated community guarded by mercenaries ?
That can only survive for so long.

In the end this is a small planet, and we must decide which way is best.

I want Peace not War. I like IKE .

Does anybody here believe that the Miltary-Industrial Complex,  exemplified by the current situation in the USA and elsewhere,  is a “GOOD IDEA ” ?

Posted by frog on Jul 4, 2006 at 5:20 PM

MIC is neither good nor bad.  Like fire, it can be used constructively or destructively. 

The USA is unparalleled on this planet in using all its tools constructively.  This is because we are a democracy, a nation of laws, and have a free-market economy.  Our documents are The Declaration of Independence, The Constitution of the United States, and Adam Smith’s The Wealth of Nations.  Adam Smith instructed the American founders in the value of entrepreneurship and individual initiative in creating wealth.

Interestingly enough, French Philosophy was fundamental to the Enlightenment, which was a primary source of our Declaration of Independence and Constitution.  Unfortunately, continental Europe never grasped the principles contained in The Wealth of Nations, and experimented with various statist economic systems, culminating in the socialist abomination. 

France, and most of Western Europe, are now astraddle a system of democratic socialism, which is sort of like being astraddle an east bound horse and a west bound mule, when you want to go north.  Western Europe’s economy is sick, it’s moral state sucks, and it’s governing bodies are bureaucratized, which is worse that being sick or sucking.

The Soviet Union had the worst of both worlds, a socialist government and a socialist economy; consequently, the Soviet Union went south. 

Europe, like the Soviet Union before it’s timely demise, takes all it can get from the free-market democracies, in the way of technology and innovation. But, for whatever reason, Old Europe refuses to embrace the free-market, preferring to wallow in stagnation and declining demographics.

And, while Europe refuses to emulate the values and principles that have contributed to American growth and well-being, it constantly disparages and downplays American accomplishments and institutions in the most vile and dishonest manner: false accusations of voting irregularities, attacks on the integrity of American leadership, and attacks on our unmatched industrial base, such as Halliburton.  In these efforts, Europe is joyfully joined by the American socialists in the academy, the media, and the far fringes of the Dimocratic Party.

I look at the futile antics of the socialists with amusement and bemusement.  Whatever are they thinking?  Do they seriously believe they will ever win another election?  They are divided ten ways among themselves, and, more importantly, they are divided from the American people who are outraged at the people who have attacked us (I mean the Islamic terrorists, not the Europeans) and outraged at the Dimocrats who refuse to protect us.

Two hundred thirty years ago there was one real democracy.  Now two-thirds of the world follows democratic forms, and the number is increasing.  While Europe stagnates, India and China are growing rapidly by freeing-up their economies; can personal freedom in China be far behind?  Democracy and free-market capitalism will prevail.  Sorry about those of you who want to follow a different path.

And if you want to call President Bush a nazi, knock yourself out.  It’s a free country.  Just don’t call Castro or Chavez any names in their home states, or you will wish you were back in a free country.

Posted by scorp on Jul 4, 2006 at 9:45 PM

Scorpy

Like fire, it can be used constructively or destructively

So right and it is good to see all the constructive usage of the MIC in Iraq.  Quite inspirational really.  Perhaps the USA needs some of this constructive input too?

It is generous of you to allow us to call George W Bush a Nazi.  His grand father Prescott Bush was of course a Nazi as we know, and treasonously supported Germany via business interests during the war.  But Dubya is more of an insane hubristic megalomaniac.  Still Nazi sounds good to me.

George W Bush is an election stealing Nazi.

Thanks again Scorp.

Now I am sure that if one wished to call Chavez a Nazi, it is possible many of his supportive population might kick in one’s teeth.  Not least because due to his popular appeal, and his socialist reforms he is as far from a Nazi as one could get.  As for what Chavez would do, or his police for example, it seems that those in Venezuala, who call him names like Nazi, are doing fine.  The same American backed rats who attempted a coup against a democratically elected Chavez, still seem to be calling him names and slandering him without serious consequence or effect I might add..  Meanwhile people who protest against Bush are being arrested and even jailed in the good ole USA. 

As for Castro, he’s a bit of a tough old communist that one, and I don’t think it would be appropriate to call him a Nazi for that reason, but certainly not good for the health or freedom I’d guess.  No argument there.

Your comparisons are always such fun Scorp.  Silly but fun too.

Now two hundred years ago there were actually a few democracies, I think France for example should be given a bit of credit, having inspired the whole thing with their revolution.  They also gave you a nice statue to commemorate your fledgling democracy.  What is sad is that two hundred years is as long as that democracy you are thinking of, seems to have had before it began to rapidly die.

A hint: When elections are being stolen, not once but twice in a row, democracy is rather a misnomer thinks the rabbit.  When elections are fought on the basis of massive warchests paid in support from huge corporate interests, I think what one has is actually called Fascism, or even an Autocracy. 

But what’s in a name?  Since you were so generous to let us call the Bushling a Nazi, you may feel free to call the USA a Democracy.

Posted by Rabbit on Jul 4, 2006 at 10:02 PM

Natalie -

Do you think Lagomorph is insane?

They say that people who do the same thing over and over, while each time expecting different results, are insane.  That’s Lagomorph.

After the 2000 election, the Dims and the Lags said that the election was stolen, Bush was a liar, Bush was not too bright, and Bush was a nazi.

So, the American people heard all this too many times, and re-elected Bush by a bigger margin.  Of course the “Bush was a liar” argument was a direct, if inappropriate, response to Clinton’s perjury conviction.  And then it was discovered that Gore and Bush had nearly identical IQs, but that Kerry’s IQ was lower than Bush’s, and Bush had better grades than either Kerry or Gore (Gore flunked out of divinity school). 

So that leaves the subjective charge that “Bush was a nazi” as the only thing that remain as a matter of opinion, and there was no evidence for it (quite the contrary), but the Dims and the Lags keep saying it despite the fact nobody believed them last election, and even fewer people believe them now.  So why do the Dims and the Lags keep telling the same lies that lost them the election last time?  Can’t they at least make up new lies to tell?  I don’t mind them lying, in their child-like way, but now they are starting to get B-O-R-I-N-G.

They are all functionally crazy.

Posted by scorp on Jul 5, 2006 at 2:26 AM

MASTER SCORP

The Military-Industrial Complex is neither good nor bad, like fire ?
Have you never heard of Arms Races contrived purely to enrich the Arms manufacturers ?

FROG LIKES IKE

This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence – economic, political, even spiritual – is felt in every city, every Statehouse, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society.

In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together

This is just as relevant to the elections theme as Bush’s IQ.
Being endlessly repetitive, old Scorp, you still get Adam Smith wrong. Will you never learn ? He knew governments had to regulate business.
Earlier Republicans knew this, and Busted Trusts.

The rest of us are concerned at the possibilities for electoral fraud. You steer away from that discussion. Obviously you have your motives.

The rest of us are concerned, next , at the lack of real choice facing most of us in most of the developed world.

RINOs and DINOs, NuLabour UK, Privatising Socialists in france, all in the same Big Business boat.

But first things first. You dear Americans have gotta sort out your system, but I’m afraid you can’t.  Up to you.

on a lighter note—

SUN TOM’s ADVICE to a UK Prime Minister

* Try not to get involved in any wars
* Try not to get involved in any wars on abstract nouns or commodities (terror, drugs etc.)
* If you have to, it’s best not to start it. You get more sympathy that way
* Don’t have it in Afghanistan, Belgium is much nearer and more pleasant
* Really, I can’t say this enough - don’t have your war in Afghanistan
* Too many troops is nearly enough
* If you’ve got aeroplanes, use them, particularly if the other lot haven’t. It’s not Queensbury Rules.
* If your kit doesn’t work in the conditions to be encountered (too hot/cold/sandy) find another battlefield
* Don’t expect the civilian population to be on your side, particularly if you shoot them or blow up their houses
* Never underestimate the power of chocolate
* Don’t invade someone’s country with overwhelming force, staggering air power, satellite reconnaissance and the biggest guns you can buy and then complain that the other side are skulking around refusing to have a fair fight in the open.

?

Posted by frog on Jul 5, 2006 at 4:42 AM

Frog

That would have been good advice for another national leader or two Rabbit can think of.  Bit late now of course.  Frog why do you suppose the Scorpy persists in labelling you and I as Democrats when we are from France and Oz respectively?  Do you think he is stuck on the only dualism he knows?

Scorpy

You do have an odd sense of what constitutes opinion and by contrast, what are facts.  The rabbit has patiently explained to you dear Scorp, that facts are things which can be proven, ie: they have some countrpart in real life, while opinions are merely one’s feelings, beliefs about what those facts may imply or show directly.

Prescott Bush was factually, a Nazi sympathiser, a member of American Eugenics society and a traitor technically speaking for supplying aid to the enemy, Germany, during WWII.  That’s isn’t an opinion, it is quite well known and widely disseminated.

What your opinions, or mine are about that, is not the point, when first establishing the fact.  Rabbit shall let you know he personally doesn’t have as harsh opinion of him for doing it as you should, if you can bring yourself to face up to the fact.  After all, I think Germany was kind of shafted, and old Adolf and co were probably not quite the devils they have been made out to be, look at the USA today, it is already guilty of many of the sorts of atrocities which got Germany such a poor reputation, yey the USA is a beacon of freedom and democracy par excellence, is it not?  Also since Prescott Bush porobably knew better than most due to his privelaged status, he was no doubt aware of the basically false premises underlying much of the staged conflict. 

All wars are staged little Scorpy, they don’t happen by themselves.  People are just not crazy enough in large enough numbers, they need to be driven to fight and make war. This requires much propganda and “staging” to achieve as a rule, so old Grandaddy Bush was really above all that petty patriotism stuff anyway, don’t you think Scorpy, rabbit’s secretly sweet souled troll? He was a rich and powerful tycoon so he should be afforded the privelages due such men among men.  A big moneyed, powerful collosus, his vision was way beyond this world conflict which was to bring so much change and profits for some.  Also the USA isn’t my country, so I could care less that Prescott Bush was a traitor to the USA.  But a traitor indeed he was if we are to be brutally honest.  The Eugenics business should put paid to any notions of denying he was also sympathetic to the Nazi cause.  He was, and was recognised to be at the time even.  History showed this had consequences too for him, but not much and not for long.  This is because he was such a powerful and privelaged figure. 

It’s a well known system.  The rich get off, the poor go to hell.

Put Bush Prescott Nazi Germany into a search engine. Google showed 419,000 results.  They can’t all be merely opinion, there must be some facts which can be established for a thinking person to make up their mind about. You can pick and choose among the sources till you find one which reports the FACTS, ungarnished, or you can allow the rabbit to find a few for you, by default.  You’ll find that it was going on all the way through to 1951.  Pay attention to the documents discovered or at least reported in 2002, and 2004.

Posted by Rabbit on Jul 5, 2006 at 5:41 AM

HI HOPPER

The rich get ZERO or a misdemeanour The poor get a felony , ole Prescott bought hisself a place in Congress.

By misdemeanors he essays to climb
  Into the aristocracy of crime.
  O, woe was him!—with manner chill and grand
  “Captains of industry” refused his hand,
  “Kings of finance” denied him recognition
  And “railway magnates” jeered his low condition.
  He robbed a bank to make himself respected.
  They still rebuffed him, for he was detected.
                                      S.V. Hanipur

Its the rich that gets the pleasure
Its the poor wot gets the blame
Ain’t it a-a-all a *-*-**ing shame !

you may insert the expletive of your choice . As usual, for him, the version frog learned so long ago was more vulgar. Music Hall classic

Scorpy, my dear chap
have you thought through what will happen if the rich do keep on getting richer and richer ?

If not, could you put your A*se into gear, and give me your considered opinion ?

Nice to see me old Prof from 1971 Tony Atkinson is still at it .

Posted by frog on Jul 5, 2006 at 6:29 AM

Frog as far as the comparison of the earnings share of the Oz population, I’m surprised that the ratio is only 9 times it’s equal share.

I’d have guessed it more like twenty or even more.  Maybe that’s because it is derived at via Tax records.  The thing there is that all wage earners cannot avoid being fully taxed.  Meanwhile everyone from small businesses, and contractors whom can “minimise” up to the really wealthy especially have the opportunities to avoid allowing the tax department near anything more than , maybe 5% to 50% of their real income.

I posted a half dozen sources to the Prescott Bush Nazi business stuff, it has gone! Also several corrections have reverted, some weirdness has happened.

You know Frog, when faced with such astounding insight as the following it can be difficult to hang onto the “illusions and lies” we Dims and Lags have invented.  Reading the profound explanation of what has actually been going on behind all the liberally biased, media lies, it makes one wish we could just stop denying the truth that Bush really is the most honest, successful, intelligent and popular president in history.

Rabbit almost feels the need to purge himself, Scorpy and admit he is deluded in his views of everything and the following about sums it up nicely.

After the 2000 election, the Dims and the Lags said that the election was stolen, Bush was a liar, Bush was not too bright, and Bush was a nazi.

So, the American people heard all this too many times, and re-elected Bush by a bigger margin.  Of course the “Bush was a liar” argument was a direct, if inappropriate, response to Clinton’s perjury conviction.  And then it was discovered that Gore and Bush had nearly identical IQs, but that Kerry’s IQ was lower than Bush’s, and Bush had better grades than either Kerry or Gore (Gore flunked out of divinity school).

That’s saying it like it is.  Boy this guy sure does know how to sum up politics, and history comes to life in his telling of it.  Like a supernova of insightful analysis, Scorpy reigns supreme. 
The hopper feels so humble next to it.

Posted by Rabbit on Jul 5, 2006 at 7:43 AM

TRUE Rabbit

even the poorest of the poor pay VAT and petrol tax.

But there is one thing the rich can’t take away, they can larf at the f***ers.

Notice how i’m trying to clean up me language, and failing ...

know the song ?

scorp
I found this for you, some real-world economic thinking from Sir Anthony, Chevalier de la Legion d’Honneur, etc.

frog found the econometrics too much , became a money-launderer, now reformed,  so there is yet some small hope for your sad soul .

Posted by frog on Jul 5, 2006 at 8:14 AM

Rabbit…...Thunder storm yesterday afternoon….was posting a response to your post when the power when kaputski…Hope you are doing better today…every day is a new day…this planet earth is in a new space in time ,than it has ever been before…. Never been divorced…but I have seen the Repa….police brutality can be a bitch…look you gotta persevere, that’s what life is for…ya know…...Besides , with Natty , WinChesNut , Scorp and Julychuchy…we need your help…the Rabbit is far from silly , and much more witty than the Bugs…these willy coyotes will think this is there site…order a ACME Neo-con surviver kit and camp out like this is Iraq.. somebody get me a Boulder too drop.. is that a cliff over there Rabbit

p.s….no jok’in now…Kenny Boy dropped dead from a cardio-assault…we gotta persevere….noboby knows the time…...was the stress too much…stole all that money…for what….
p.s.s…..Then the Gov-ment gave back the money too ol’ Prescott….after the war…who doo ya love….

Posted by Redhorse on Jul 5, 2006 at 12:22 PM

Frog -

The Military-Industrial Complex is neither good nor bad, like fire ?
Have you never heard of Arms Races contrived purely to enrich the Arms manufacturers ?

No, I have never heard that, but I am not accustomed to listening to left-wind conspiracy theorists, so I am fortunate to miss such things.  That is not to say that there are not venal men, or venal men in the defense industries and politics.  We just put one of them, Cunningham I believe, in jail for overstepping the rules, and we will do so as often as necessary.  Which has almost nothing to do with the state of the world, because corruption is a minor factor in the USA, and perps are dealt with promptly. 

We pay a piddling amount for our defense and for the war against the terrorists.  The entire cost of Afghanistan and Iraq is less than the increase in GDP this year.  And we have growing democracies in Afghanistan and Iraq, and people are starting to demand their rights in Lebanon, Kuwait, Sa’udi Arabia, and Egypt.  So our modest investment in democracy is paying off handsomely.

And that is just contemporary problems.  In the recent past, MIC gave us the power and flexibility to stop the Soviet’s attacks on third-world countries, and to expose the Soviet’s incompetence and corruption, which lead to their well-deserved downfall. 

MIC is also developing working anti-missile systems, which seems to be a particularly good idea in light of the all the left-wing nutcases (present company not excepted) hell-bent on trying to jeopardize and intimidate the United States.

You don’t use your own democracy to good purpose, so you will pardon me if I ignore you when you advise me how I should use democracy. 

  ... you still get Adam Smith wrong. Will you never learn ? He knew governments had to regulate business.
Earlier Republicans knew this, and Busted Trusts.

Let me see if I understand you correctly.  Adam Smith “knew governments had to regulate business” in support of the invisible hand?  That doesn’t make any sense at all, now does it?

Smith did accept “government intervention in the economy that reduced poverty and government regulation in support of workers”.  OK, so what else is new?

I think you should not concern yourself with America’s superbly tuned economy, but with your own stagnant, stumbling, corrupt, bureaucratized economy.  The world desperately needs Europe to crank up and play a role in the world economy, instead of continuing to stumblefart around with low productivity and high unemployment.  In year 2000, Europe approved the Lisbon Accords, and promised to match United States productivity by year 2010.  How is it coming?  This is a serious question, and I would like a serious answer.

The rest of us are concerned at the possibilities for electoral fraud. You steer away from that discussion. Obviously you have your motives.

I.  Don’t.  Think.  So.

You obviously have not been reading my posts.  You are not “concerned” about electoral fraud, you are making rank speculations about (Republican) electoral fraud.  But historically, election fraud is the province of big city Dimocratic machine politics, including Mayor Daley’s theft of the 1960 election for John F. Kennedy, paid for by Joseph Kennedy.  Read my previous posts for more detail.

So, why don’t you question Lagomorph on his off-topic dishonesty about WTC?  Lagomorph has completely wasted about 9.873x10 to the 23rd power electrons talking utter nonsense.

Posted by scorp on Jul 5, 2006 at 4:14 PM

Scorpy

Ike spoke loud and clear about a very real danger.
This has come to pass.

No leftwind conspiracy there, and surprised at your ignorance on the subject.

To widen the market and to narrow the competition is always the interest of the dealers ... The proposal of any new law or regulation of commerce which comes from this order, ought always to be listened to with great precaution, and ought never to be adopted, till after having been long and carefully examined, not only with the most scrupulous, but with the most suspicious attention. It comes from an order of men, whose interest is never exactly the same with that of the public, who have generally an interest to deceive and even to oppress the public, and who accordingly have, upon many occasions, both deceived and oppressed it.
The Wealth of Nations, Book I Chapter XI

You obviously haven’t been reading my posts. My concern is for the future, not what happened in 1960.

The various reports I’ve posted above are to that effect .

Posted by frog on Jul 5, 2006 at 6:19 PM

Frog -

You keep going on and on about what Eisenhower said.  You have absolutely no interest in Eisenhower or what he said, except that you can use that particular quote for your political advantage.  Except that you can’t, because in the 2006 context, Eisenhower’s 1961 speech is not overly pertinent. 

The MIC is not near the threat to the Republic that the Islamist terrorists are, and the Islamist terrorists are not near the threat to the Republic that the socialists are.  Every socialist government that every existed degenerates into inefficiency and corruption at best, and mass murder at worst.  Including France, where Mad Jack Chirac would be in prison if he were not the President.

We can discipline the MIC as necessary, but it is vital to avoid domination by the leftists, who, like the government, is only here to help us.  The left wants to help us by destroying our moral values, our institutions, and, eventually, the nation itself.  No thank you.

The international left is no great threat, of course, and the American left is, happily, systematically destroying itself.  Academia is a trailing indicator, and the old 1970s type hippie professors are dying off, and taking their silly leftist philosophy with them.  The leftist media is self-destructing.  The American people see the lies and distortions of the left media, and the media’s audience goes away, leaving the newspapers and network TV with fewer readers, fewer viewers, less revenue, and less profits.  The Dan Rather fiasco made ABC look like fools, and the NYT is determined to make themselves look like idiots and traitors, merely by following standard leftist practices. 

The leftist political leadership in the USA is the damnedest collection of incompetent stumblefart misfits imaginable: Pelosi, Reid, Dean, Kerry, Clinton.  They are not fighting the Republicans, they are fighting one another.  Good theater makes bad politics.  Remember that when the Dims lose - again.

Posted by scorp on Jul 5, 2006 at 9:06 PM

Security for the Shrub.  Presidential security is certainly an impressive thing.

Rabbit wonders how long before Jack Baur (24) will be faced with a threat to the presidential feces?  Terrorists bent upon stealing or blowing up, the POTUS porta pottie.

Thankyou Redhorse.  All’s well that ends well….......damn thats an unfortunate choice of words….....^^..........

BTW, Scorpy, the rabbit has found something we can agree upon. (though it is but an opinion and not a fact).

The leftist political leadership in the USA is the damnedest collection of incompetent stumblefart misfits imaginable: Pelosi, Reid, Dean, Kerry, Clinton.  They are not fighting the Republicans, they are fighting one another

Absolutely.  If there is any hope for the dems it isn’t yet on the horizon. 

Which means there is no hope on the horizon for the USA unfortunately.  Because though a few of the only decent senators are Repugs, they are ostcracised by the majority anyway.

Posted by Rabbit on Jul 6, 2006 at 12:21 AM

LAPIN
A while back RFK jr wrote that 95% of Republican Congressmen ( and women) were crooks.

And so were 75% of Democrats.

Quelle FUBAR . C’est un bordel .
I wonder how you’d quantify it for Oz, and me for france/UK .

The losers in this whole process are, of course, the voters. Where they don’t have reason to fear out-and-out political interference in the electoral vote, they can expect incompetence and chaos. Toledo, for example, may have rid itself of Bernadette Noe, but it still had a major meltdown in last November’s off-season elections, which it subsequently blamed on the incompetence, lousy software and missed deadlines of its vendor, Diebold. Across the country, alarm bells have been sounded about major security flaws in electronic voting software “” one such, in Diebold’s TSX system, was described by Pennsylvania’s leading voting-machine inspector as “the most severe security flaw ever discovered” “” but Ohio appears blissfully unaware of them because of the inattention, bordering on negligence, of its secretary of state’s office. Peg Rosenfield, for one, sees things as worse now than at any time in her memory. “It’s not that anyone will be out to steal the election necessarily,” she remarked. “They don’t need to “” we can screw it up all by ourselves.”

  andrew gumbel

Arguing with old scorp is like shouting at an answering machine. The same old message comes back.

The only vote-counts I have seen here have been in my village of 230 voters, and in a district of Caen of a few thousand.

Paper- ballots, quite labour-intensive, but anyone could come in and check on it. .

About 60 volunteers did the counting in Caen , good atmosphere, and no way could anything be fixed.  It was good to see..

Posted by frog on Jul 6, 2006 at 2:20 AM

Frog

Rabbit did see the Gumbel article a few days ago after all, after at first thinking otherwise.  It all has a depressing feel of deja vu. Only this time probably much more in your face and probably a greater scale since it will no doubt take even more of an “adjustment of results” by the powers that be.

Not meant to go off topic again, and more for the excellent term of reference near the end of it.
Co-incidence theorist

In Oz I’d estimate that 95% of both the major political parties are scumbags. 
85% of Liberals and 68% of Labour would be outright crooks. 
Just a guess of course.  Based on observation and extrapolation. 
And a bit of Scorpish make it upism.

I saw vote counting going on with paper ballots in local elections in which I ran, unsuccessfully.  In the end even that process was able to be subverted and probably was being.  But with paper ballots in Mexico we are reminded it still comes down to the incumbent with the voting apparatus mostly in their control, allowing a re-count.

Old Dick is obviously not counting on the same sort of future as the Scorp

Scorp do you speak Mandarin or any other Chinese by any chance?

Posted by Rabbit on Jul 6, 2006 at 2:41 AM

Frog, right on!

Posted by whattheheck on Jul 6, 2006 at 8:50 AM

WTH
Good to see you.

I think the problem goes even further than the “tactical” question of purchasing personnel techie competence. And the competence of manufacturers to build a bugfree machine, that’s IF they want to .............( i bet my son in law could. from hardware to last line of program.)

Not long ago a big brit bank computer got penetrated, Hmmmmmm.
So any PC password - voting, or voting machines in districts, should have been approached with the utmost care imaginable !

UK GCHQ in the west of england can listen to telephone conversations in the UN building in New York, so what else can some “techies” not do ? (Katherine Gun blew that whistle.)

I see Ireland experimented, maybe stopped now after Public Outcry and E50 Mn written off. no time to check, confirm..

Experiments have taken place in france, I did not know !

On the “strategic” level,  should these system be introduced, at all ?

I said before how I was impressed by the atmosphere in the City polling station, and in my tiny local mairie.

There is something precious in that. People were carrying out their civic duty, congregating together in the same place.

Here, everyone who wishes to get married has first to go the MAIRIE for the civil marriage. Then, they go on to a church if they wish.

Another form of civil union is mairie only.

The participation is important . Many people together. Even a handful in a mairie has some solemnity about it.

Imagine a future time, when you can work, shop, vote, and WHY NOT get married from home ?

Passwords for everything . People living isolated lives.

UGH.

Posted by frog on Jul 6, 2006 at 10:34 AM

Ken Blackwell is the secretary of state of Ohio. He controls every aspect of the voting process, from his office. No conflict of interests, mind you… lol He is now running for Governor of Ohio and refuses calls to step down during this election from his duties that control the election.

Here is an excerpt from an Ohio government website devoted to the work and credentials of Blackwell. You be the judge. And oh yes, Blackwell is a Republican. Actually, he was the co-chair of the committee to re-elect George Bush in Ohio.

It’s reported that it was Blackwell who told Andy Card that there were not enough provisional ballots on tap to make up the difference between Kerry’s count and a possible victory for Kerry. In other words, no need to actually tally those provisional ballots.

It is also reported that certain precincts didn’t have enough voting machines ready to handle the expected avalanche of voters—-some voters ended up waiting nine hours to cast ballots—-some frustrated voters left, unable to wait. It is ultimately Blackwell that presides over the disposition of those machines.

John Rappaport, Prison Planet.com 11/03/04 writes:

I

Posted by sallyb36 on Jul 6, 2006 at 12:28 PM

HI Sally and ALL ,

good documents at craigmurray, fired UK ambassador to uzbekistan,( one of scorps rising democracies.)Hes a good guy.

To us a torturocracy. pdf document 1 a gem for u yanks….

Off to get me organic bread , at the pub, of course. See you.

Posted by frog on Jul 6, 2006 at 12:57 PM

Relationships?

There once was a princess, named Sally
Who married a toad, by the alley
She saw in him a prince,
But my, how she winced
She’s a wart on her nose now, by golly!

Posted by sallyb36 on Jul 6, 2006 at 1:20 PM

Frog,

I’m ready to return to paper ballots and a marker or pen,
People who can count accurately,
and maybe add the Iraqi purple digit of pride.
Then if there are questions they can be recounted.
I call that minding your p’s and q’s
Paper
Pen
People
Purple
Question
Quiz

Accuracy fhas been traded for speed.  The process needs more time than the media or pundits want to allow.  Too much knee jerk, beat’cha to the punch reporting.

Posted by sallyb36 on Jul 6, 2006 at 1:31 PM

I’m going to let you liberals in on a little secret .... THE ELECTION IS OVER AND BUSH WON.

Here is another secret .... BUSH IS PRESIDENT AND THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT.

You liberals can write books, articles and blog to each other about the 2000 and 2004 elections .... and guess what?  BUSH IS STILL PRESIDENT

lol…

lmao…

HOW DO YOU LIKE THEM APPLES???

Posted by tina1 on Jul 6, 2006 at 9:23 PM

Tina 1,  You wrote

“I

Posted by sallyb36 on Jul 7, 2006 at 12:16 AM

Tiny 1 is a complete lunatic Sally pay her no mind.  She interracts with a discussion in the sense a robot does, and has nothing to say.  Think of her posts as the sound of an insane cackling, heard as some totally wacked zombie flys past, in the inverted position on an out of control broomstick.

It is not from under a rock but out beyond the clouds, even the atmosphere, whence Tiny 1 comes.  Like a satellite on a long orbital period, Tina will return again, but always just to cackle, and nothing has she to say.

The lack of Oxygen in space means she can only babble a bit as we come into focus before she is whisked away on a tide of madness, to who knows where.

Tiny 1 reminds the rabbit of Kookaburras.  They are a rather dull coloured but largish Kingfisher.  They make a loud cackling noise and are quite aggressive.  They eat snakes lizards etc in the Eastern States but since spreading to Western Australia they have gone rogue and kill many small native bird species.  They are also pests, at least in this state, so Rabbit has shot quite a few on the farm. Cackle cackle, laughity laugh they go, and bang goes the rabbit’s gun, the kookaburra blows into little bits.  Nasty bird. Trouble with Tiny 1 is she is so unpredictable we are unlikely to have a gun on hand when we need one.  It’s always the same, “the things one sees when one hasn’t got a gun handy”.

Thanks WTH.  I know all that, humanity, sympathy and all.  I hope its understood I left the slight drama of my own in posts, in the midst of crisis, due to honesty and nothing else. Now the Mrs is on her way to Denmark in plane with youngest rabbitling. ( a trip which was plannd long since)  Two teenagers still here, and I.  I, Rabbit will live at home again for the fortnight while she is away.  Much better than a swag and sleeping bag in the office at least.  (I was a jolly swag rabbit when we met, now twenty two years later I am a not so jolly swag rabbit still.  The swag is even the same one.)

Now I worry about planes falling out of sky etc.

(Yes Frog, Son and Rabbit have communicated.  I said sorry, he grunted, and all is well enough on that front.)  Two weeks in the house again, I can pet the “other rabbit” of an evening as I like to do.  Bliss.

Posted by Rabbit on Jul 7, 2006 at 1:03 AM

Tina,

Posted by whattheheck on Jul 7, 2006 at 6:30 AM

Well said, WTH.

While speed and coolness of computerized voting is attractive, I agree that we’ll never be able to totally trust the result, especially when so many of us are familiar with how easily our own computers can be tampered with from outside.  (except for us Mac folks, that is!)  (so far!)

We vote on a sheet, kind of like an SAT test or something, where choices are blackened out in an oval next to the name.  The voter then feeds the sheet into a counting machine, which alerts you of errors if any, and maintains a running count.  The results are speedy, yet there is of course a paper trail.  I think this is a pretty cool method.

(optical scanner I guess is the technical description)

Posted by Natalie on Jul 7, 2006 at 10:02 AM

Heck -

If our elections are perceived as easily tampered with we need to fix this problem ASAP.

Do you have any basis for this statement, or are you just repeating left-wind talking points?  After all, the Dimocrats and their machine politics are the historical sources of voting fraud in this nation.  And while a number of Dimocrats were convicted and sentenced for voting fraud and intimidation in 2004, I have yet to see reports of a similar level of criminal behavior among Republicans. 

Ohio seems to be the focus of voting fraud allegations.  You know, of course, that Ohio, like all other states, has bi-partisan voting commissions specifically trained and responsible for overseeing elections.  Consequently, if there were voting irregularities, the accusations should be coming from the people on the ground who were charged with the responsibility.  But that is not what is happening. Left-wind partisans, some of whom had no experience or knowledge of Ohio, are making quite baseless charges for political purposes, based on absolutely no real knowledge of the situation. 

So, where do these mistaken “perceptions” come from?  They are invented by the losers of the election, of course.  “If you can’t win fairly, try to lie your way into office” is the Dimocrat credo.

Posted by scorp on Jul 7, 2006 at 12:00 PM

SCORPY
Every time you (metaphorically) open your mouth here, you demonstrate your position as a sort of Fool, a Court Jester.

Historically,  their dangerous role was to interject a little logic and sanity with their foolery.

Your role here, upon opening your mouth, is to demonstrate to honest Americans of any political inheritance, that you are just a partisan Republican., of the very worst sort.

Simple stuff, me old scorp. The voting system must be hyper-clean.
The other questions such as disenfranchisement need a serious Federal investigation. Yesterday.

Re-districting is a nightmare.  In any country.

So thankyou scorp, you are a magnificent <b>foil,</b >and Fool.

Posted by frog on Jul 7, 2006 at 4:30 PM

Scorp uses the word “fair” like he knows what it means.
Repugnants only use that word if they win, no matter
what means it took to gain that “win.”.

I find it odd that he would even broach the word “fair,” given
how conservatives like to beat up progressives for any stand
which seeks fairness.

Ah, once again that double standard.  Fairness only counts
if or when it affects the favored party. 

The neoconservative agenda has totally upended the electoral
process, dumping ballots in ditches in Florida and then, rather
than admit to any wrongs Scorp whines about Democrat fraudulence
to cover all his partisan bases.

Ah, sage wisdom would still allow that two wrongs do not make
a right.  We should be for our country and the legal process in
electing officials and not deflecting from wrongs.  When we can
walk away from the idea that “our wrong is right because it’s our
turn!” is when we can really be reaching out to recapturing what is
right for the people, not for the politician or the party.

Posted by sallyb36 on Jul 7, 2006 at 5:25 PM

Scorp,

Well, the fact that this article even appears here shows the perception is there. There are a number of other online references to the Ohio 2004 voting also indicate the perception.

If you

Posted by whattheheck on Jul 7, 2006 at 5:57 PM

Carol Fisher - Update

After spending 5 weeks in jail, Carol Fisher was released from jail this afternoon.  Carol is an activist with “The World Can’t Wait- Drive Out the Bush Regime” in Cleveland OH.  Her arrest, trial, and conviction began when she put up a couple “Bush Step Down” posters on telephone poles in Cleveland Heights on January 29, 2006.  For a fact sheet on her case, go to:
http://worldcantwait.net/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1635&Itemid=61

Two separate court orders were issued releasing her from the Cuyahoga County Jail, cutting short her original 2 month sentence.  Yesterday, July 6, the court of appeals finally granted her an appeal bond, letting her out of jail while her trial and conviction is reviewed by a higher court.  And today, the original trial judge, Timothy McGinty, released her on time served, indicating that she had spent enough time in jail.  But she is still under court order to take an “anger management class” and do two years probation with community service.

Posted by sallyb36 on Jul 7, 2006 at 6:00 PM

While I really don’t like the idea of voting on touch screens and such, especially without any kind of paper trail, It doesn’t appear that there’s any credible evidence of computer fraud in the 2004 election by either side.  Does anyone really think that Diebold would risk participating in something as dastardly as computer vote manipulation, when getting caught would certainly ruin the company?  Would they risk the possibility of someone coming forward in the future and spilling the beans?

It just doesn’t make any sense.  This kind of criminal partisanship is way more evident on the left, anyway.  If anyone is capable of messing with the voting machines, it appears it would more likely be Kerry supporters.

Indeed, scorp, most elections are strictly monitored by a bipartisan group, at least they certainly are in my state.  As far as the actual vote counting goes, I think most systems work pretty well unless there is an exceptionally close vote, or when election officials fail to anticipate and plan for a large turnout.  I personally like the optical scan idea for reasons I previously stated, and in addition, working with a pencil and a sheet(s) of paper gives one a warm feeling of participation, rather than feeling like you just got through playing a video game.

The beauty of America is that we have the ability on a local level to improve our systems through the legislative process.  An average person writing persuasively in their local paper has the power to galvanize support and force the state/county officials to modernize or improve/change their systems.

A large nation wide system is much more of a challenge to ever change or improve.  Of course, that’s just another aspect of the genius of the founders who’s primary concern was not allocating too much power to the federal government, thereby diluting that of the individual.

Is Rabbit insane you ask?  No, I think he’s just “dumber than a tree”, for buying into Diebold and other conspiracy theories that have no proof whatsoever of being legitimate.

Posted by Natalie on Jul 7, 2006 at 6:25 PM

SALLY b,

in the UK a piddling little contravention such as this would be dealt with in a local Magistrates Court.

Even if she had actually bit a copper, no rabies involved and infinitesmally little bodily harm, she would get a $50 fine and an injunction not to illegally staple flyers.

DUH

Posted by frog on Jul 7, 2006 at 6:38 PM

Frog,

Now that’s what I call civilization!

Posted by sallyb36 on Jul 7, 2006 at 6:40 PM

Natalie,

You’re as naive as a tree
before it becomes a stump.

Posted by sallyb36 on Jul 7, 2006 at 6:41 PM

Hi WTH,

Your latest post appeared while I was writing mine.  Yes, I love my Mac, even though it’s kinda ancient by today’s fast moving standards.  I am still able to run OS X, barely.  I’m waiting until they come out with a Powermac with Intel chips before upgrading.  I tried for years to get my dad to switch from his problem-laden PC, but he wouldn’t listen to me.  But as soon as one of his many favorite grand-daughters made her pitch, he had a G5 iMac within a week.  Now, he wouldn’t go back for the world, and has converted my sister as well.

You’re right, Macs are not in the sites of the virus writers, and that is probably the main reason we are are so far, secure.  However, I believe that the Mac OS is inherently somewhat less vulnerable to mischief, for reasons I don’t entirely understand.  I could be wrong.

Practically any method of voting could potentially be messed with, I guess.  Even if you’re advocating manual counting of all ballots, humans of course have their own unique set of characteristics that can intentionally or unintentionally affect the vote count. 

What is your idea for the best method/technology for voting and counting?

Posted by Natalie on Jul 7, 2006 at 6:56 PM

The push for paper—backed by the small but vocal Takoma Park-based group TrueVoteMD—gained new strength last month when Ehrlich announced he had lost confidence in the state Board of Elections’ ability to conduct accurate elections. The governor, who had been a champion of the Diebold machines, also called for a paper trail for the first time.

Average citizens execising their power to make changes in their electoral system, in this case a change to optical scanners.

Posted by Natalie on Jul 7, 2006 at 7:26 PM

SALLYb

My old cobber WTH hit the nail where it hurt

Bipartisan commissions at the polls would be of no use if someone got into the computers and juggled the numbers. A clever hacker/programmer can design a program to take your vote for John Doe and send all or a fraction of it to Millard Fillmore.

My son in law could do that in twenty minutes or so.  But of course he’s a Cheese-Eating Surrender- Monkey.

My own son is less qualified and knowledgeable , but I have no doubt at all that he would get to the same place in an hour or ten.

Posted by frog on Jul 7, 2006 at 7:29 PM

Oh my!  The rabbit is feeling all shivery, and excited.  Not only is WTH onboard but, Natalie even is in agreement with the idea of paper ballots.

I would not have believed it if I hadn’t seen it.  We have never had anything different in Oz, and we still have a shitfull government after every election, so fairness and accountability in elections is no guarantee of anything better.  What is most needed is a seriously good choice of parties to vote for, here there and everywhere.

But at least we are all agreed on the need for papertrails and or paper voting.  It is only those who feel the cheating will always be to their benefit who could possibly support an opaque system like voting machines produce.  Like Scorpy.  Scorpy of course is the lowest common denominator, and he is not actually a jester, but a bad joke.

If there is an untenable position, an ugly cause or a failed enterprise, then Scorpy is going all the way with it.

Scorpy still doesn’t tell Rabbit what he thinks of Darth Cheney’s investment portfolio.

I agree WTH, that it is the perception of fairness which is the initial stumbling block for any system, even if it is legit. 

What I don’t accept is that there is any doubt that much cheating went on here.  The Repugs are certainly more “organised” in their cheating, after all the voting machine companies belong to admittedly partisan Repugs.  The judges used to settle disputes are republican choices and after having done the deed, are given promotions and honours.

The two elections were stolen if any elections have been stolen anywhere in the world.  If the POTUS was a Dem at this time in history, it would still be a choice made by the corporate and Zionist controllers, so I have no doubt the cheating would be the same.

I don’t see this as Bushling getting these arsewipes to fix the election, more the same scum who fixed the election as being those who selected the Bushling in the first place.  A mistake would be to give Bush credit for being anything but a stooge. 

Rabbit is willing to guess that eventually the Bushling will be thrown to the wolves, a sacrifice to sort of reclaim some of the trust lost in the system.  The result will be a criminal trial, possible execution for Bush and a few other war criminals and traitors, while the Patriot act, government spying on citizens and fraudulent elections will continue unabated.  You can wish for an accountable voting system all you like, you are not going to get one is my guess.

Posted by Rabbit on Jul 7, 2006 at 7:34 PM

Rabbit

Do not imagine that WE, the powers behind the throne, have not thought deeply and long about sacrificing the creature which you refer to as the Bushling. It got us worried at one time, but the medications seem to be working, for the moment.

We can terminate it in any of a dozen indetectable ways,  and also we do have three patsies lined up for assassination should they be needed. Two are “islamists” , Har Har ! That should go along well with -the “Plan” . 

For the moment, it is performing moderately well, defending the indefensible with bullshit, which is actually quite easy faced with the toothless tigers of the Press And ain’t that Congress a larf ?

About as useful as tits on a bull.

Posted by frog on Jul 7, 2006 at 8:26 PM

As useful as an Ashtray on a motorbike.

Frog the rabbit has an idea.

Perhaps we could isolate the Scorpion.  Put it in a jar for fun.  Since Natalie has shown an uncharacteristic support for a reasonable idea, accountability in elections, we actually have an issue which it seems can even reach across the boundaries to the underworld.  While Scorpy still resists.  WTH is even closer to the fold this time, nay a leader even, (as Rabbit always knew he could be).  We will thus have all the women, all the brains and all the beasts of the field and the creeks.  Tiny 1 does not count since she is stuck upside down on a runaway broom which is orbiting the sun, but Scorpy may yet be induced to join her.

Actually there is something else which the rabbit would like to see happen with the broom and the Scorpy…............On second thoughts he would rather not see this thing, but would settle for being told it had happened after the fact.

Posted by Rabbit on Jul 7, 2006 at 9:09 PM

Rabbit
You are verging on , no,  plunging into,  the horribler realms of sadism .
Beware, Scorp is already there.

The gallant Armchair- Warrior Scorp is already in his jamjar. HERE. Every time he speaks, he reiterates his litany of hate.

i just enjoy leaving normal Americans to analyse for themselves what   he says.

His own worst enemy.

Posted by frog on Jul 7, 2006 at 9:57 PM

Irony -

After the Florida experience, the Dims demanded electronic voting so that there would be no more questions on inaccurate election results.  The nation complied. 

In the 2004 election, the Dims lost decisively in both the popular vote and the Electoral College.  So, were they satisfied?  No-o-o-o.  The Dims were not looking for a fair election, they wanted John Kerry, of all people, to be president, which would have been a disaster on the order of magnitude of the Carter Catastrophe, if not greater.  The mind boggles.  But there were simply not enough stupid and gullible people in the USA to elect John Kerry. 

So, now what do the Dims propose?  They want to go back to paper ballots!  Very cagey.  They stole the 1960 election with paper ballots, and hope springs eternal. 

The Dims also make all these weird allegations about illegal voting using electronic voting machines.  But they present absolutely no evidence of voter fraud.  Therefore, the Dims are either making up nonsense about voter fraud or the Republicans have found a way to commit the perfect crime.  I don’t believe in perfect crimes, but if you do, you can chew on that for awhile.  I’m getting tired of your silly and repetitive allegations with no proof.

Posted by scorp on Jul 7, 2006 at 10:05 PM

Frogling…....The image was entirely due to the rabbit’s fairly extensive experience of the wondrous Scorp.  Knowing as he did the image would fit well into the sort of existential experience known to Scorpy as thinking, but to others has a more mundane and unsightly appearance.

......ooh look it’s the Scorp, in the flesh!!!!

Scorpy we have already posted the links to several whistle blowers who allege they took part in activities which suggest fraud in the eelections.  There are the none too subtle contrasts in exit poll results which alone should be enough to force a complete re-count or annulling of the results.  Then we have the tens of thousands of disenfranchised voters due to obvious and proven attempts to isolate probable democrat voters, ie African Americans. The machines have been proven to be hackable, faulty, some have been alleged by thousands of afidavits to have falsified the choices of voters even/  There is actually SO MUCH evidence of fraud it is quite overwhelming. 

It is as pathetic as it is predictable that you would defend such a steaming bowl of poop as if is your grail.

In the case of the 2004 election it was obvious that even many of those who supported Bush in 2000 had become seriously dissatisfied with him by 2004, why then could no discernable difference be seen in the 2004 results?

I suppose that if Bush were to win again in a third election with fairly similar results, despite an approval rating which has not raised above 35% for a long time, Scorpy would still be defending the bowl of poop.

Posted by Rabbit on Jul 7, 2006 at 10:07 PM

Lagomorph -

You seem to be back to your old, ill-informed, obnoxious self.  Today you are much improved from a few days ago.  I’m glad. 

... we have already posted the links to several whistle blowers who allege they took part in activities which suggest fraud in the eelections.  There are the none too subtle contrasts in exit poll results which alone should be enough to force a complete re-count or annulling of the results.  Then we have the tens of thousands of disenfranchised voters due to obvious and proven attempts to isolate probable democrat voters, ie African Americans. The machines have been proven to be hackable, faulty, some have been alleged by thousands of afidavits to have falsified the choices of voters even/ There is actually SO MUCH evidence of fraud it is quite overwhelming.

I know.  You and your fellow fellow-travelers have been saying this endlessly.  So will you now follow the law and seek indictments, and correct these gross illegalities?  After all, if Ronnie Earle can get a fake indictment against Tom DeLay, surely a real crime, such as you and your American comrades allege, can be prosecuted.  But there are endless numbers of useless idiots subservient to the left that generate an endless cacophony of false statements, in the mistaken belief that it will have some positive effect for their leftist ideological objectives.  Hope and falsehoods spring eternal on the left, as electoral victories accumulate on the right. 

In the case of the 2004 election it was obvious that even many of those who supported Bush in 2000 had become seriously dissatisfied with him by 2004, why then could no discernable difference be seen in the 2004 results?

Well, in the first place, there is quite a discernible difference in the results of the 2000 and the 2004 elections.  Not only did President Bush win decisively in the popular and Electoral College votes, this was the first candidate since, I think, 1984 to win an outright majority of the popular vote.  And among the falsehoods that the left parrots endlessly, is that many Republicans were “seriously dissatisfied” with President Bush in 2004.  Republicans have their differences, but none of them are stupid enough to vote for a Dimocrat. 

Continue ...

Posted by scorp on Jul 8, 2006 at 12:02 PM

I suppose that if Bush were to win again in a third election with fairly similar results, despite an approval rating which has not raised above 35% for a long time, Scorpy would still be defending the bowl of poop.

In your ignorance, you are unaware (or deliberately falsify) certain realities of the American polity:

1) Bush’s approval ratings are currently 39% and rising.

2) Congress’ approval ratings were recently 22%, the lowest of any American institution.  Such public persona as the Dimocrats have is a product of the Dimocrat’s presence in Congress.

3) The other two traditional left-wind sources of strength are the academy and the media, both of which are in a state of transition, and the leftist influences in these institutions are in terminal decline.  The NYT recently published an illegal and traitorous expose of American methods of tracing terrorist funds.  This is the suicidal NYT gift to Karl Rove.

4) The American economy is smoking.  After the near disaster of the dotcom Bubba Bubble, President Bush’s tax cuts and economic reforms have generated the most remarkable recovery and growth in world history.  In the scant eleven quarters since the Bush tax cuts, American GDP has grown by an astounding 20%, which is about the same as the entire economy of China, which, in turn, is widely recognized to be growing remarkably quickly.  During the Bubba Recession, the individual states were in desperate financial straits, but most have shown a remarkable recovery, except New Jersey, of course.  New Jersey is the prototypical corrupt Dimocrat stronghold.

5) The American people are not currently focused on the November elections, and won’t be, typically, until about August.  Right now, polls reflect headlines, and the unceasing leftist slant of the antique media headlines shows up in the polls.  When the voters start to concentrate on real issues, this is what they will see:  The astounding success, at minimal cost, of the effort to bring democracy to the Middle East; the ongoing nuclear threats in Iran and North Korea; the unpopular Dimocrats in Congress who are not trusted in matters of national security; and the astounding success of the American economy since Bush’s tax cuts and economic reforms. 

And you think you can spin a winning hand out of this?  What are you smoking?  Governor Corzine wants some.

Posted by scorp on Jul 8, 2006 at 12:08 PM

Scorpy,

I’ve said before i wished the Mideast adventures had been an outstanding success.

For the sake of all those civilians, and the soldiery.

Christina Lamb, The Times

It was impossible not to wonder whether any of those attacking us could be the same men as those I was with back in early 1988. And how, when Moscow had got such a bloody nose in Afghanistan, losing more than 15,000 men in what is seen as Russia’s “Vietnam”  (and a defeat that had played a crucial role in the collapse of communism), had the British ended up taking on the same enemy?

No idea what you are smoking, but I prefer to keep a clear head.

Posted by frog on Jul 9, 2006 at 7:49 AM

Some things are smoking, but it looks more like guns than the American Economy.

All of you have a look at this.craigmurray, whistleblower against UK government and US Administration lying to us all about “ democracy and Human Rights”

If that site is blocked,  by popular demand, google craigmurray, and find another.

One thing most sentient beings must recognise is that Hitler and other germans were not the only Nazis, once and for all . Same for Mussolini and the fascisti.

Same difference.

40minutes of video Smedley Butler USMC and the plot to Save America , or SOME plutocrate americans , by Fascism

WTH you betta get that DSL soon. A useful aid , sometimes a pic or film is worth tens of thousands of words.

The television Age CAN work both ways;  WE get inundated with FOX /FAUX (“false”, in french) News propaganda , but an answer is the small producer providing the Alternative.

Or a thousand small producers…

Nowadays all of us with a coupla hundred bucks can film and transmit.

Some small hope for the force of Truth.

Posted by frog on Jul 9, 2006 at 12:39 PM

WORLD CUP stil in PROCESS
my take was 2—1 for Italy; before the match.

Zinedine Zidane for President !

Coulld not do worse than the other mothas, and far more intelligent than GWB.

Not difficult.

Posted by frog on Jul 9, 2006 at 1:02 PM

105 minutes,  in extra time.

Posted by frog on Jul 9, 2006 at 1:11 PM

Zinedine just committed a foul, seen and ctiticised in REAL TIME by the french journos.  NOT BAD.They were completely HONEST. Well, even cheese-eating surrender-monkeys are not always dishonest .

They displayed the honesty which all of us apart from PARTY hacks such as Master Scorp,  do appreciate.

How are the mighty fallen. Zidane sent off.

Beware of IDOLS, feet of clay so often .

ONE possibility is frog for POTUS . And that sure ain’t gonna happen .

So you guys have to find one of your own.  There are thousands, even hundreds of thousands, out there, even a million or three, of Americans who could look at the World, find a Sensible, Peaceable way..

Just a question of someone wise enough .  Who can progress through your corrupted system without being assassinated on the way.

A tall order.

Up to you to identify them, and protect them.

Posted by frog on Jul 9, 2006 at 1:19 PM

Frog….I see you’re talking about my man Smedley again….and the plutocracy….I hope WTH can get DemocracyNow.Org…excellent alternative…
An hour a day…makes the paranoia go away…..

Posted by Redhorse on Jul 9, 2006 at 1:40 PM

Right NOW; the weasel crook Chirac on, the radio, trying to recuperate the maximum of political capital possible from the defeat.

Almost as ridiculous as the weasel crooks Bush and Blair.

The difference being that in times to come he will not be pursued , internationally, for THOSE War Crimes.

Posted by frog on Jul 9, 2006 at 2:20 PM

Hello Redhorse,

Bit of luck mebbe in my call on the football. 2.1 against the frogs.

But I did also have some Evil Hope that they wouldn’t win. Not that I don’t love’em, the team, but I would have hated to see the attempted political “recuperation”, by Chirac and compagnie. 

I live here, I’m part of them, but still an independent human being. And quite happy that a country that had voted out the neo-fascist Berlusconi won.

“Your man”  Smedley does not belong just to you.

He ‘belongs’  to WTH, Sallyb, Rabbit, and Frog ,  too !

He belongs to all of us who have no interest in ideologies.

Maybe , he even belongs to Scorp and Natalie , as real Americans ? Real patriots ?

However, I’m not sure if either or both of them have the slightest interest in any Justice that could be verified internationally.

Posted by frog on Jul 9, 2006 at 3:18 PM

Not much on your football…like it…but Redhorse at one time in his youth…worshiped the football Gods of the Amerikan brand…still a fanatic…of my former High School Squad…4 former teammates made NFL Squads…one was a first round draft pick…another played in a Super Bowl…this was back in the 80’s…before the really big money came into the sport….....” ya gotta sprint…ta Win ! ! ! “
In the study of history…and the results of the actions of Men and Women…the Eye witness account is in most cases given the highest priority…........true….Smedley…...

This Redhorse had a lot of speed & strength…but in the end…it didn’t workout…..

Posted by Redhorse on Jul 9, 2006 at 4:01 PM

Frog -

<blockquote>I

Posted by scorp on Jul 9, 2006 at 4:21 PM

Toughshit RED, on that football career, I see you made it another way. Smedley the eye-witness is like all the rest.,  you believe or you don’t. I do. And maybe start to do paragraphs like the rest of us conformist reactionary Dimocrat liberal cheese-eating Surrender-monkey frog-eating Anarcho-Socialist mothas ?

waal, just a small critique,  mon cher Cheval Rouge.

Looks to me like Smedley was one hell of a MAN .

And contrary to popular bullshit, that Race has not yet died out.

So I trust you to READ , download the pdf stuff, and transmit to all your many friends the goodnews, latest above from craig murray,  that the War on Terra is bullshit, lies, propaganda.

Old uncle frog is preparing a War against SIN . (But I define it, of course….)
.

Posted by frog on Jul 9, 2006 at 4:42 PM

Don’t'cha just love the spin… ?  ?  ?  Such continuity and predictability in the message.  They sure learn their lines well.  Best little scripts, right from the heartlessness of Texas.

...the cost of war “on the cheap…”  murder and mayhem go a lot farther nowadays for the buck!

And those Iraqis love that new found democracy so much that they only kill 47 citizens at a time!

Think what they could do if they could only find those WMD’s
the conservatives convinced their consituents that were there…

Remember the “Mushroom Cloud?”
the… Yellow Cake?

Tell us some more fairy tales, Mr. Spinmeister Scorpio

This little site helps that follows keep you knowledgeable what this war
is costing, by-the-second.  Boy do we love bargains!

http://costofwar.com/index.html

Posted by sallyb36 on Jul 9, 2006 at 4:58 PM

Hi CRscorpy…See…you are a story teller of great merit yourself….and just this afternoon that scumbag of short lived liberal media called 60 minutes did another falsehood based story on the money stolen by Custer , Battle…they compared the 10’s of million stolen by CB as chump change , in comparison too the 8.8 Billion missing and un-accounted for BY Halliburton and their little maggot sub-concractors….
50…count them 50…separate investigations of fraud….and look…apparently there is a religious Left on the move…now what could be the reason for that development….

Wake up CRs…the tax on all those “snack cakes “...you’ve been scarfing down is about to go up…...
Washington Post…sunday, july 9,2006…The Costs of War…OUTLOOK section….sub-title ;..In Iraq, a few atrocities command attention. But what about the everyday killings, the civilians shot at checkpoints, the dead mothers and anguished chrildren…Story Title : Who Cares ?....there is a photo of a little girl crying…blood on her face and hands….too her left the flashlight shadow of a US soldier…her parents killed by US soldiers during a dusk patrol…the little girls name is Samar Hassan , 5 years old….
Wake ” the Fuck Up Moron “.......
One Military Gov’t official stated that the Custer,Battle Contracts where hand written with spelling comparable to what goes on at this web-page…10’s of millions of dollars…IN CASH…Bundles of 100 thousand dollars…no bank…no receipts…...
Now Redhorse is sure SCs wishes too get in on the bounty…so why are you here…..

Posted by Redhorse on Jul 9, 2006 at 5:49 PM

SCORP
If everr US war-aims had been those purported by this ADMIN, even with an extraordinarily low numer of troops, really excellent well-intentioned and well-planned US political initiatives MIGHT have resulted in a favourable outcome.

By favourable I mean a peaceful society. Where girls and boys could go to school and come back home, even late at night.

As under Saddam the MONSTER.

That would have been an OUTSTANDING SUCCESS.  I’d be HAPPY.

QUESTION ANSWERED….., BLOODTHIRSTY SCORP ,?

We now have the opposite . Unfortunately for ALL the victims.

That includes physically wounded and dead and psychologically injured children of Americans.

Natalie, as a parent, will surely understand certain aspects which are beyond your comprehension.

Old frog could do 95% of the work performed by US forces there, maybe even 98%..Computing, advanced vehicle mechanics, signalling,  and logistics no problem. Transportation, easy. Any fuckwhit can get ina a vehicle, DRIVE, and get killed. Sniping not a great expert,  but not bad.  Military planning and prevision—rather above a Bush 4star general.

I can’t run that far that fast, as when we ran 8miles before breakfast with a telegraph pole between 5 or sometimes happily 6 of us !

No matter old SCORP.

I’ve said it before.  You are really a very great PUNK. A real champion.

I’m an armchair anti-Warrior, but, I’m holding rabbit back,now, DOWN !

I really must get a new passport.

The idea of a “pissing contest” between old uncle frog, rabbit , and Scorpy and Friends fills me with a totally unrealistic delicious anticipation.,

RABBIT, I told you before, like Saint Augustine, “non-violence, but not yet, Oh Lord.” 

FROG   “OK, Bring them on .”

I would so dearly love the 59yr old frog and rabbit to have a knockdown fight with Scorp and his accomplice. Ever seen an angry rabbit ?

Frog does not need to be angy. A question of techniques well practiced. And not forgotten . Reckon rabbit the same.  VETS is dangerous.

RESULT . APOLOGISTS FOR STATE TERRORISM , AND (PREVIOUS )  ALLIES OF AL QUAEDA ,  THEREFORE ENEMIES OF “CIVILISATION” AS WE KNOW IT——TWO KNOCKOUTS——GWB DEFENDERS OF FREEDOM THROUGH TORTURE—ZILCH

Pure fantasy. Brute force is so uncivilised, and can be only exercised by American soldiers in “”“"Occupied Territories”“”“.

Rabbit and I would actually rather forget the nasty techniques inculcated by the Military.

.

Posted by frog on Jul 9, 2006 at 6:24 PM

Frog -

By favourable I mean a peaceful society. Where girls and boys could go to school and come back home, even late at night.

As under Saddam the MONSTER.

That would have been an OUTSTANDING SUCCESS.  I’d be HAPPY.

Well, I guess you are not joking about something like this.  So you must be the craziest son-of -a-bitch on planet earth, except for all the other socialists.  If you want to see pictures of Saddam’s happy children, check out:

http://www.kdp.pp.se/old/chemical.html

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/brian_brivati/2006/03/16_march_remembrance_of_anfal_1.html

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1993/iraqanfal/

You will note that I have supplied supporting documentation from reliable left-wind sites, Human Rights Watch and Guardian, so you need not fear contamination by having to look at a factual representation that might come from someone who does not meet your rigid standards of ideology. 

Socialists measure a successful operation by the standards of the Collectivization, when five million Ukranian peasants died to establish the worker’s paradise, so 5000 dead at Halabja during the Anfal probably does not impress you.  But note the chemical weapons attacks in 1998.  Since President Bush took office in 2001, how do you suppose that Saddam was able to gas his opponents in 1998, before President Bush made up the story about WMD in Iraq?  Think hard, I’m sure you can come up with some bullshit explanation.

Posted by scorp on Jul 9, 2006 at 8:10 PM

Thankyou for the well wishes Scorpy.  The bond between a rabbit and and his troll is a sacred thing.  There is such a thin line between love and hate, pleasure and pain.  Hopefully Scorpy, who has actually always enjoyed a special place of respect in the rabbit’s view, notes how I have never done great evil to his name?  In fact that is due to the excellent choice of handles, I simply believe in calling things by the most accurate description, part of my honest and simple approach.  You are a Scorpion, and a fine bitey snipy one, thus every wack from the rabbits “branch of understanding”, is as you should know truly a mark of appreciation, for your Scorpiness.  Is it true that as Frog implied the Scorpy was not a father, methinks I knew otherwise?

Frog

It gives Rabbit great pleasure to know the Italians won.  At a point I feared we might win.  Yes feared.  Being Aussies, we always win the sports things and its just plain sickening sometimes!  Despite Soccer having been in Oz for a long time,  we have not been trying on an international stage for long.  We must still call it soccer for Football is a truly skilled game using ones hands and feet, as well as ones brain (in contrast to ones head), and in which the sum total of more than thirty men running aorund for an hour and a half is more than a score of 0/0 or 2/1.  Where 2/0 is called a thrashing and where the men jump about kissing each other whenvere one of these elusive goals is actually achieved.
The Goalie is half the problem.  Here you ahve one guy who gets to stand inside of what is a pretty small net and try to stop anybody getting the ball into the net.  HE HAS ABSOLUETLY NOTHING ELSE TO DO! Just stop the ball.  With the help of a whole team of other blokes as well. 

You might as well say, you can’t keep up, or we don’t much like you, so you might as well just stand here and try to stop any balls which come this way. At least to make up a bit for his wallflower status, (or perhaps in defence to his lousy abilities) this guy is allowed to use his hands, the thing which supposedly raises us ABOVE the apes even. 

Living for six years in Danmark, I saw just how big the Wolrd Cip really was, and the cup attracted my interest from a political point of view.  I was quite involved in the anti EU campaign just before the Referendum on the Maastricht treaty, and even though the history is almost erased on the fact, the Danes voted NO by a very loud, seemingly impossible 1%.  Even though the obvious intention of the Anders Fogh Rassmussen government was to somehow bypass these results, (which they did via a stupid game of fiddly diddly trickreferendum and good old fashioned autocracy) and this was OBVIOUS on the night of the results knocking him for six, that rejection of the EU from grassroots Denmark was absolutely loud and clear.  They DID NOT AGREE TO IT!

Soon afterwards the World Cup 2002 was up and roaring, and one day some work comerades asked me who I thought would win the World Cup.  In a moment of revelation which I can only describe as ocassional but recognisable precognisance, I said Denmark.  Now I knew virtually nothing and had not followed the cup up till then.  But somehow the line of influence, something which is hinted at I think in Quantum Physics was clear then and there, that somehow the fact of Denmark having said NO, against all odds to this EU concept, was the “butterflies wings” which gave them the Cup that year.  I am convinced to this day that I, Rabbit was the only person in the world who expected Denmark to win the Cup in 1992.  (BY the way Rabbit also predicted the “Berlin wall to come down very soon”, in an all night argument,......the night before the announcement to the world.  Just intuition?  Rabbit knows what the butterfly wings look like sometimes maybe.)  That’s why your mention of Italy winning over France as being more right, due to their rejection of Berlusconi, rings a lovely little tune with me.  It’s also why I had some private satisfaction that we in Oz didn’t get any further than we did.  EVEN THOUGH the decision on the final penalty was the most blatant case of bias in a referee.  DISGUSTING! 

We don’t deserve to win stuff while we are being America’s little bitch.

Posted by Rabbit on Jul 9, 2006 at 10:24 PM

Scorpy here is day of democracy at work in Iraq.

The report of Iraqi resistance gives a lot more form and subtance to the steadily rising casualty figures.  I cannot help but smile with a grim satisfaction at the picture painted by the following paragraph.

Resistance fighters destroy Abrams tank, killing a reported six American troops . . .

The correspondent for Mafkarat al-Islam reported a source in the Brigades of the 1920 Revolution, which is taking part in the battle alongside other Resistance groups, as saying that a bomb exploded and after that, Resistance fighters fired an RPG7 rocket-propelled grenade destroying the giant tank and killing at least six US troops who were inside. The source told Mafkarat al-Islam that all the Resistance organizations were fighting as one in the Battle of al-Miqdaiyah against the US occupation troops. The source expected the fighting to continue into the night, on the basis of how things were going at the time. Meanwhile, loudspeakers systems on mosques in the area were proclaiming “Allahu Akbar!” “God is Greatest!” in order to spur on the Resistance men in their battle with the Americans.

Doesn’t this sound like a great party?

I can picture the RPGs and the 7.63 mm bullets coming from three different directions, the Iraqi puppet troops hightailing it for safety, the Yank troops forming defensive cordons and over the top of it all, loudspeakers systems on mosques in the area were proclaiming “Allahu Akbar!

Ha ha ha ha Oh come on Scorp tell us how great the spreading of democracy is going, how much the hearts and minds of the poor formerly Saddam oppressed Iraqis are being won by the brave US troops.

“Allahu Akbar!”  The image of a bees nest finally becoming so enraged it goes on the warpath enmasse comes to mind.

Posted by Rabbit on Jul 9, 2006 at 11:29 PM

Natalie,

Macs now have Intel. You can read about them at macmall.com or, of course, at the Apple site. I

Posted by whattheheck on Jul 10, 2006 at 8:03 AM

Lagomorph -

Hate to tell you this, but the Abrams M1A1 was specifically designed to withstand the RPG.  An RPG might knock a track off, but it is extremely unlikely to have penetrated the crew compartment.  There was an incident early in Iraq where SOMETHING penetrated the crew compartment, and we were busy trying to figure out what it was.  Nobody was killed in the incident.

Note also the Abrams has a four man crew, and absolutely no spare room.  Someone is blowing smoke up your butt, Lagomorph, a sensation you seem to enjoy, as often as you indulge.

Posted by scorp on Jul 10, 2006 at 11:30 AM

http://www.bbvforums.org/cgi-bin/forums/board-auth.cgi?file=/1954/32863.html

Article from Black Box Voting giving very detailed, lengthy evaluation and description of the problems with Diebold voting machines, an

“informal synopsis of the unmitigated risks in the Diebold TSx”

Yeah, yeah, the de-bunkers in the crowd will assess this as a liberal attempt to justify claims of stolen elections.  Science and facts just don’t seem to phase conservative agendas.  Kind of like “the last throes” and “Mission accomplished” theories of their leadership.

Posted by sallyb36 on Jul 10, 2006 at 12:26 PM

What’s that old saying scorp, if you never do anything, you never do anything wrong?

These armchair Monday morning whiners apparently expected a painless, instant, and natural transition from decades of totalitarian rule and murderous suppression of any and all dissent, to the historically unmatched freedom and peace that all of us DSL loving Frogs enjoy, strangely excepting the mild mannered and obviously completely innocent Carol Fisher.

No, the transition isn’t complete within less than three years, so the verdict is in.  Time is up.  They tried to tell us, we should never have ventured any response at all, save perhaps for asking “what did we do to make you so angry at us, and what can we do to make it right?  Just name it” 

Well pardon me, but this kind of approach seems to be counterproductive:

...your most disgraceful case was in Somalia; where- after vigorous propaganda about the power of the USA and its post cold war leadership of the new world order- you moved tens of thousands of international force, including twenty eight thousands American solders into Somalia. However, when tens of your solders were killed in minor battles and one American Pilot was dragged in the streets of Mogadishu you left the area carrying disappointment, humiliation, defeat and your dead with you. Clinton appeared in front of the whole world threatening and promising revenge, but these threats were merely a preparation for withdrawal.

You have been disgraced by Allah and you withdrew; the extent of your impotence and weaknesses became very clear. It was a pleasure for the “heart” of every Muslim and a remedy to the “chests” of believing nations to see you defeated in the three Islamic cities of Beirut, Aden and Mogadishu.

- Osama bin Laden, “Letter to America”

And let it be known that the very corporations, militaries and economic systems that enable us to safely, instantly and affordably express to the entire globe our allegiance with the head severing resistance in Iraq and the noble leaders of Iran, are the true villains of the world, who BTW are just a heartbeat away from invading Washington and imposing fascism and martial law. 

My God….what kind of world would be living in if this kind of mentality had somehow prevailed back in the 1940’s?  If I’m not mistaken, back then what relatively little of it there was came from the right.

Posted by Natalie on Jul 10, 2006 at 1:46 PM

WTH,

I was referring only to Powermacs, the “tower”, as not having Intel chips yet.  I’m aware that iMacs, Mac Minis and notebooks have already gone Intel, but waiting for the “Big Mac.”

10,000 a year on upgrades?  That sounds like an awful lot, perhaps a typo?  I had a hard time with the early OS X also, but installing Panther on my G3 (upgraded to G4) was a breeze.  It is much faster than earlier versions, and seems rock solid.

I’‘m not surprised you would be having browser problems running nine.  It may be that you need to be running Safari or Firefox or Camino (osx)  to keep up with changing web protocols and demands.  I don’t think any system 9 software is still being updated, but certainly not an expert.

Mexican elections are interesting.  It seems that they have, in a lot of ways, a more fraud-proof system than we have, at least as pertains to making sure that only people who are eligible to vote can.  As for the actual mechanisms of counting, I’m interested to learn further what those are.  Maybe we can learn even more.

Look south, young man.

Posted by Natalie on Jul 10, 2006 at 3:10 PM

Ah, Natalie plays the overview of “War is Great”
because look at all the peace is has pretended to
bring us… “War without end, amen, amen.

Posted by sallyb36 on Jul 10, 2006 at 3:14 PM

Sally; WTH,

craigmurray worth a look

Letter #3

CONFIDENTIAL
FM TASHKENT
TO IMMEDIATE FCO

TELNO 63
OF 220939 JULY 04

INFO IMMEDIATE DFID, ISLAMIC POSTS, MOD, OSCE POSTS UKDEL EBRD LONDON, UKMIS GENEVA, UKMIS MEW YORK

SUBJECT: RECEIPT OF INTELLIGENCE OBTAINED UNDER TORTURE

SUMMARY

1. We receive intelligence obtained under torture from the Uzbek intelligence services, via the US. We should stop. It is bad information anyway. Tortured dupes are forced to sign up to confessions showing what the Uzbek government wants the US and UK to believe, that they and we are fighting the same war against terror.

13. Nonetheless, I repeat that this material is useless – we are selling our souls for dross. It is in fact positively harmful. It is designed to give the message the Uzbeks want the West to hear. It exaggerates the role, size, organisation and activity of the IMU and its links with Al Qaida. The aim is to convince the West that the Uzbeks are a vital cog against a common foe, that they should keep the assistance, especially military assistance, coming, and that they should mute the international criticism on human rights and economic reform.

15. At the Khuderbegainov trial I met an old man from Andizhan. Two of his children had been tortured in front of him until he signed a confession on the family’s links with Bin Laden. Tears were streaming down his face. I have no doubt they had as much connection with Bin Laden as I do. This is the standard of the Uzbek intelligence services.

19. This is a difficult and dangerous part of the World. Dire and increasing poverty and harsh repression are undoubtedly turning young people here towards radical Islam. The Uzbek government are thus creating this threat, and perceived US support for Karimov strengthens anti-Western feeling. SIS ought to establish a presence here, but not as partners of the Uzbek Security Services, whose sheer brutality puts them beyond the pale.

MURRAY

PLENTY MORE WHERE THAT CAME FROM .

Spreading Democracy ?

Posted by frog on Jul 10, 2006 at 4:24 PM

Scorpy why do you make this strawman?  Rabbit never said the Abrams was destroyed by an RPG, so why do you specifically act as if you achieve something by saying otherwise?

Scorpy the Abrams tank is confirmed destroyed, so I guess the Iraqi resistance must have had something better than an RPG, maybe they had some captured DU rounds for same?  Maybe they had some of those Israeli mines which are turning up in the hands of the resistance from time to time and which via a DU penetrator can breach the Abrams tank.  Rabbit shall show you just how good the Iraqi’s are at blowing up Abrams tanks Scorpy.

The following are all instances of Iraqi resistance destroying Abrams Tanks.

Two Abrams tanks destroyed

73 tanks destroyed, at least some were Abrams. Does Scorpy know all about the invincible Abrams tank from the brochures at National Guard displays?

Just goes to show that with panicky troops one doesn’t have to open the tank up to get the crew.  If Rabbit fired an RPG at an Abrams he’d have been satisfied at this outcome all the same Scorpy.  Who cares what the brochures say, a dead invader is a dead invader.

One Abrams tank destroyed among other vehicles.

Rabbit has no idea what exactly your funny little post was meant to establish Scorpy but the point is certainly not that the Abrams tank somehow didn’t go kaboom as per the report. 

Did the Scorpy not get the image of carnage and chaos which the reports indicate?  Don’t please bore us with claiming the reports are not accurate, they are well sourced note the bottom of page and are certainly more reliable than the controlled propaganda you call news in the USA.

Posted by Rabbit on Jul 10, 2006 at 9:29 PM

Natalie attempting some historical revision of her own, says These armchair Monday morning whiners apparently expected a painless, instant, and natural transition from decades of totalitarian rule and murderous suppression

Actually Natty, we expected exactly the sort of unmitigated disaster which has evolved from day one of the illegal invasion of Iraq.  Nobody around here expected things to run smoothly as you indicate,except of course the US “it’ll be a cake walk” administration.  More to the point, we knew then as we know even better now that the USA nor it.s pitiful few allies in crime, had any right to be going into Iraq in the first place. 

A fact which is as valid today as ever anything needed to be to ensure the days of War Crimes tribunals are now in the future of the USA.

Nobody except the ever gullible US sheeple and their lying and incompetant leaders ever expected the invasion of Iraq not to produce a sharp increase in terrorism and the complete destruction of Iraq along with an endless war of attrition.

It didn’t take any real imagination though sweetie, just a reading of history.

Though you are right in saying we are suggesting you should never have made any response to Iraq.  Firstly there was nothing to respond to, they were co-operating with all reasonable requests where the USA wasn’t actually making that impossible.  They had nothing to do with 911, a fact which is long since admitted even by the lying US junta.  They had no WMDS and everybody actually knew that despite Powells dance of lies at the UN.  You should never had gone into Iraq in 2003, and that isn’t our opinion merely, it is a fact of international law. 

The invasion was illegal.  The occupation is illegal and the usurped powers over the Geneva convention, by Bush are illegal, as even your own Supreme Court has now established. Hear that creaking noise Natalie?  That is the sound of the walls closing in.  There will be no escape from the War crimes tribunals.  A past, much more respectable USA helped set a precedent in that regard which will now not be able to be avoided by a new and unprincipled generation.

What surprises is that anybody could expect democracy or peace to result from a massive and overwhelming military invasion and a brutal occupation.  What is suprising is that anybody could try and justify killing a couple hundred thousand, innocent civilians since 2003 alone, with reference to the 20,000 Saddam Hussein is supposed to be guilty of.

What is surprising is that anyone who supports the use of Depleted Uranium, without any attempts to minimise the damage to civilians or to its own troops, would dare to try and pretend they have any right to speak about human rights or indeed anything moral at all.

Natty the weird Batty, what exactly is the quote from Bin Laden meant to convey?  He spoke truthfully, described events accurately, and other than that, pointed out you are a bunch of heathen murderers, but how do you see any sort of threat of invasion from those quite reasonable words?

I mean to say, are we all supposed to start foaming at the mouth and making crosses of protection just because Osama Bin-Laden uttered these words?  Would “Mary had a little Lamb” become a chilling cry for holy war if Bin laden recited it?  Honestly your hysteria sometimes is amusing.

The followings sentence of yours is a surprise., since you wrote it.  It isn’t as if we don’t most of us realise it.

And let it be known that the very corporations, militaries and economic systems ....... are the true villains of the world, who BTW are just a heartbeat away from invading Washington and imposing fascism and martial law. 

So true Natty.  So very true.  So why do you support all manner of abuse by the corporate controlled Junta which has brought the USA to this point and to the brink of destruction, morally, economically and socially?

Since 1940?  Even just watching the link to the Smedley Butler story, thanks Frog, you should realise that things on this front were not much different in 1940, just at an earlier stage of the game.

Posted by Rabbit on Jul 10, 2006 at 9:38 PM

The problem is, Rabbit, that you seem to be still living in a pre-1940’s world.  Whatever little plan some goof-balls had about overthrowing the US govt. way back when, has zero relevance today.

Pretty much like that Northwoods memo, that was offered as such earth-shattering confirmation of the dastardly tendencies of the good ‘ol USA.  But upon closer examination, it pretty much fell apart.  In fact, it proved the opposite of what the 9/11 “truthers” claimed.

What in the world are you thinking posting links from the “Iraqi Resistance”?  You really, truly think this could be a source of credible information?  Folks that slice people’s heads off for fun? 

You’ve got to be insane…..er…I mean…...“dumber than a tree”

You’ve taken your mis-guided hatred for all things American military and let it distort reality nearly 180 degrees backward.  200,000 killed by the U.S., and 20,000 by Saddam?  Don’t you mean more like 30,000 civilians and probably closer to a million killed by Hussein?

Back to the real world….. there is a tiny minority of Iraqis (Sunnis and Al Qaeda) that choose to resist to the death Iraq becoming a place where THEY are not in exclusive charge.  Millions upon millions of average peace loving Iraqis expressed their desire for civility and non-violence by turning out to vote.  That you would cozy up to this despicable “resistance”, who is for ANYTHING but voting, on a thread where you’ve bitched and moaned about supposed election fraud is nothing short of stunning.

Posted by Natalie on Jul 10, 2006 at 11:09 PM

Take a step back from the propaganda of the neck-slicers.

In the Name of God the Compassionate and Merciful

Finally, no matter how much I write or speak about this brave Regiment, I haven’t the words to describe the courage of its officers and soldiers. I pray to God to grant happiness and health to these legendary heroes and their brave families.

NAJIM ABDULLAH ABID AL-JIBOURI
Mayor of Tall ’ Afar, Ninewa, Iraq
February,  2006

Posted by Natalie on Jul 10, 2006 at 11:15 PM

Natalie,

The U.S. government has already been overthrown,
it’s called neo-con takeover.  Wake up from that trance.

Posted by sallyb36 on Jul 10, 2006 at 11:22 PM

Now let’s see Sally.  President Clinton was rattling the sabre against Iraq back in 1998 or so, even directly warning us about the danger of them soon acquiring NUCLEAR weapons.  He adopted a policy of regime change in Iraq.  The Democrats in congress rushed to embrace it.  Clinton and Gore were well aware of the threat brewing in Afghanistan; witness their missile strikes.

So if Al Gore had gotten just the right lighting in that room counting those ballots, he would have been president on 9/11.  I don’t think it’s too far fetched to assume that Gore wouldn’t perhaps have invaded both Afghanistan and Iraq.  After all, his administration and the media were actively reporting* on a grave connection developing between bin Laden and Hussein back in the late 90’s. 

*(realplayer clip of ABC news report)......never to be seen again.

Be honest here and tell us that you’d be thinking of the whole thing as a “neocon” plot if this scenario had played out.  Or, more likely, would you be praising the brave actions of the Democratic party, liberals doing what they were born to do…..liberate?

Isn’t it possible, Sally, just possible, that both Clinton and Bush are good men, despite their flaws, and are/were simply doing their best to carry out their main responsibility…..protecting the American people?

Posted by Natalie on Jul 10, 2006 at 11:50 PM

Research into the aftermath of the meltdown at the Soviet nuclear reactor has suggested that low levels of radioactivity are not as harmful as believed—and may even be beneficial.

Lauren Moret and Doug Rokke:  call your offices!!

Relax guys, we still got the vapor theory.  Let’s see ‘em get their arms around that ghost.

Posted by Natalie on Jul 11, 2006 at 2:23 AM

Dammit I just lost a bit of post.
Natty nobody is cutting off peoples heads for fun!

Those who are doing the slicing are mostly if not exclusively Al-CIA-duh.  These people are only in Iraq because of the illegal US invasion.  Nobody in Iraq unless you count a few psychos in uniform, is actually having any fun from all appearances.  Is cutting the head of an invader or a citizen of an invading country worse than shooting or bombing civilians in their own country?  Is it worse than spreading depleted Uranium all over a country which never threatened or atcked you not a bit nasty Natalie?  Is inavding a country and destroying its hard won infrastructure then continuing to occupy the country while still bombing and killing people not enough perhaps to make some of the men of a country somewhat emotional?  If your poxed fraud of anation were to drop bombs and shoot up my country, killing my family can you guess how savage the rabbit might become?  Let me assure you that I might be capable of much worse, but beheading is really quite humane.  It is a standard of execution and doesn’t your country execute criminals quite regularly?

Since the invading soldiers in Iraq are criminals under international law, and certainly by any standards Iraqis might apply, then it saddens me to point out that those killings are justified if any killings in Iraq are. Its fairly simple if you just look at the basics pet.  Iraq did nothing to the USA or its allies, was indeed no threat.  It just wasn’t and despite all manner of lies to the contrary, that fact is established.  The USA invaded against all rights, and has coninued to occupy the country against the will of virtually the entire population.  The result of this invasion is the EXACT OPPOSITE of what would have been a good result for the US or for the Iraqis.  Unless you think the Iraqis mostly wanted a religious state alligned with Iran, or the USA for that matter.  The longer you stay the more entrenched that government will become and it is already showing it will be a brutal and religiously fanatic junta.  That makes the whole exercise a failure, a really big fucked up failure.  It isn’t going to get better, until the day after the USA leaves.  There is every indication that the warring factions are going to become united more and more against the foreign invader, which in the longer term may be good for Iraq, but it isn’t good for the USA. 

Without international law on your side, and due specifically to the geneva conventions which a once decent and proud USA helped ratify, you have no law on your side, then you are commiting a crime.  The Iraqis are completely in their international rights by fighting back and killing the invaders.  International law doesn’t actually have a caveat about Americans being above it, I know this may surprise you.  Under these laws and conventions all people are considered equal and no one nation has been given the right to lord it over the others without consequence.  Check it out, you’ll find I’m right.  One American life is worth exactly one Iraqi life. One Americxan life in Iraq at this time is worth nothing, morally, it is worth nothing! The Iraqis life on the other hand is entirely just, he is in his own country and no threat to the USA.

All this can be sidelined however since as said nobody is killing anybody for fun, unless this is the reason the USA is killing so many innocent Iraqis.  As the various massacres are showing, at least some of the killings, and rapes are being caried out by US troops FOR FUN!

The acts of violence, are at least when carried out by Iraqis, being committed as acts of understandable vengeance.  I think it is telling that you seem to think that an Iraqi who beheads an invading soldier or war profiteer, or even just a citizen of the countries which are invading his country, is somehow worse than the soldiers who are doing the invading and killing with high tech weapons of war.  The woman, child or anybody killed by Americxan bullets or bombs is just as dead as the person who is being decapitated.  You execue criminals in the USA do you not? Well anybody who is involved in invading Iraq, is a criminal, by international law.  You keep on ignoring this fact but is is established internationally that Iraqis have every right to resist the invasion, and that the USA which is invading and breaking all the laws which are supposed to govern conflicts, is completely in the wrong.

Under international law, as well as simple moral expediency, any Iraqi who kills any invader is in the right compared to any of the co-alition of the killing who kills any Iraqi in his own country.

The USA has simply not got any moral right to stand on any high horses.  The lions share of the killing of innocents belongs to the USA and if you want to talk about inhumanity how about we have another look at the pictures of the Iraqi babies which are being born deformed due to DU poisoning of their country?

Natalie its bad enough you come from the lowest country on the scale of human rights and the country with the greatest history of mass murder of any other in mo0dern times.  You are demanding the right to use any and all weapons, even those that are banned.  You are demanding the right to use torture and secret imprisonment, you actually sell weapons and support to the worst regimes around the world.  On top of it, you still want to be called the god guys.  Something has to give babe, and don’t expect it to be world opinion. There at least your country has entered the dark ages and it is unlikely we will live long enough to see the USA become a respectable and trusted nation again.

That dear is telling it like it is, and a mere glance at the internet should be enough to show that outside of the USA support for the USA is virtually nil.  I/m telling you outright, that I am sad that anybody must die for money and oil.  But I rejoice everytime an invading soldier is killed in Iraq.  I don’t care if those soldiers should be Aussies though since we haven’t been ammasing so much hate by being so brutal, we have escaped unscathed as yet.  I don’t care when the day comes, it will be nothing less than we deserve.

The stupid standard of My country right or wrong, is entirely a US construct.  Humanity has long since evolved past that point. It is well past time you crazy flag humping Americans got the picture. If you create a brutal world, then don’t be surprised when brutality comes knocking.

It might suprise you to know that many people over here who are still convinced that Islamic militants were responsible for 911, are of the opinion that the USA had it coming!  Those of us who know better, that at least the US admin was involved, still reckon you had it coming.

It is only inside America and Israel that it seems right for you to kill thousands of others but that a single retaliatory killing is somehow the height of evil. For the rest of us we just stand back and are shocked and disgusted at the hypocrisy, the wickedness and the sheer bloody minded denial.

Since you have a problem with the Iraqi resistance telling their own story, perhaps you could explain where one can expect to find the actual news on the ground beyond the pentagon controlled reporters.? 

I shall repeat this once more for the comprehension challenged.  The USA is not a beacon of democracy, freedom or truthful reporting anymore.  You have given a whole new generation a lesson in the banality of evil, and the once incomprehensible story of Nazi Germany under Hitler, has ceased to be anything mystical.  We are seeing the process repeat itself and the similarities are extraordinary. 

as for what awaits the USA the longer it stays where it is not welcome, you need look no further than Vietnam for a comparison.  Admittedly this war is even more brutally and inhumanly fought, they only had Agent Orange and Napalm in Vietnam.  If they’d had DU then today Vietnam would be virtually depopulated and not merely suffering yet the effects of the poisons and bombs which were dropped all over the country.

Posted by Rabbit on Jul 11, 2006 at 2:27 AM

I stand corrected.  They’re merely deliberately blowing completely innocent people into unrecognizable bits, including themselves. 

There’s something somehow kinda more socially acceptable about that.

Posted by Natalie on Jul 11, 2006 at 2:37 AM

Now I see Natty is trying to pretend depleted uranium is good for us again.

Natalie the vapours of Uranium are the problem and always have been.  The chernobyl meltdown doesn’t come even close to aproximating what happen when depleted Uranium Sheels, bombs and bullets are vapourised.  The alpha radiation which is normally not a problem due to very short range, is an enormous problem when ingested due to Uranium Uranyls extraordinary affinity for human DNA.  The lower level does are in fact the worst in the long run, since they don’t kill the cells merely mutate them.  The range of illnesses casued by the stuff is incredible as a result.  Obviously cancers of many forms.

Doctors in Iraq are experiencing something which ahs never been seen before.  Clusters of cancer in families for one, and even more telling, multiple types of cancers in individuals. Often Children. The birth deformities being seen in Iraq are increasing dramatically and many of thes are actually due to the previous smaller usage of the stuff in the first gulf war.  The real efefcts of the present round of usage are being recorded now and there isn’t any doubt outside of the sheeple still tryinmg to deny the horrible truth.  Even the science which was not complete when last we spoke of this, is now complete and the results are damning.

I have let you off the hook for a number of stories have been circulating in the world media, as DU is becoming a more and more noticeable issue.  Now I guess I’ll have to drop them on you after all.

The following may seem off topic, but since this shit was brought to us by Bushling himself and that scumbag Clinton to a lesser degree, it can be looked at.  Those who know what ablack soul belongs to Naty will not be surprised, Sally if you have not seen Natalie defend DU before, you may want to turn away, it is a disgusting sight.  Try to forget she has a child of her own when you look at the very well understood and recorded horrors of the greatest war crime in history. 

First watch this Buzzflash movie.

Anatomy of an Atrocity

New evidence is also suggesting that the chemical toxicity of DU and its radioactivity reinforce each other in a so-called ‘synergistic effect’, which means it ‘punches above its own weight’ in terms of the damage it can do to cells. Alexandra Miller of the US Armed Forces Radiobiology Research Institute in the USA found in a study in 2003 that when human bone cells are exposed to DU, fragments break away from the chromosomes and form tiny rings of genetic material. This damage was seen in new cells more than a month after removal of the DU, leading to an eight-fold increase in genetic damage relative to that expected.

The Dutch Journal of Medical Science reported the findings of the Flemish eye doctor, Edward De Sutter. He found 20 cases out of 4000 births in Iraq of babies with the phenomenon anophthalmos: babies who have been born with only one eye or who are missing both eyes. The very rare condition usually only affects 1 out of 50 million births.

When the DU turned up in Europe right on time the DoD and the Pentagon tried to cover the fact up by witholding the evidence.  Then once it was leaked anyway, they decided it had to have been a Chernobyl type event which just hadn’t been reported.  WHAT!  Seriously that was there answer, read about it.

Just when you think the depths of denial and hypocrisy have reached a plateau, one hears of this lunacy.  Of course the DU truning up in Europe is news form months ago, the story is being reprinted still in various MSM outlets.  By the way, Aussies are very well informed about the dangers of DU, we have had a much more open media coverage, and of course we stopped using it when it was established to be a banned weapon, and when it became apparent that Gulf War sydrome appears to be the same thing.  Not that our government will admit it, how could they?  The proof is in the pudding, we don’t use it anymore.

This one is one of my favorites even though it isn’t as exciting reading as some. Teratological effects of DU, an epidemiological study.  Importantly for it shows the duplicity of Natty and why we expect she is a shill, this study is recent and follows many times the Natalie saying there are no epidemiologal studies.  When they came along and showed exactly how bad the stuff is, the Natty continued to cheerlead for DU without a check. Truth about the issue is not even of interest to her, for the information is overwhelming.  The disabilities of the returning troops and their partners and their offspring is all out in the open, proof that this thing is real and geting worse fast. Yet Naty likes to pretend that somehow she is defending the humane viewpoint. 

What can one say?

Nat says:
merely deliberately blowing completely innocent people into unrecognizable bits, including themselves.

Natty we are talking about US pilots deliberately blowing up innocent Iraqis, and being home in time for dinner actually.  The suicide bomber is a desperate individual, who ALWAYS has but one reason for his actions, always the reason for suicide bombings has been over land.  You have invaded theirs, and since there were no suicide bombers before you fucked Iraq up, they are your fault, completely.

It is incredible to think buit the USA has so badly screwed up the Iraq invasion and occupation that not only do many Iraqis express a clear preference for Saddam Hussein, so do many of the rest of the world.  He might have been a rough bugger, but killing 20,000 of his own people pales into insignificance with the total destruction of Iraq and the killing of about ten times that many. 

The truth is he was always Americas man, and he was the best friend you had in the ME.  Bushling has completely screwed the US hegemony for the long run. Before long you can expect the whole ME adventure to come crashing down.  Justy keep on pissing off those muslims. You think they hate you now, and they do.  You think they are fighting you now but they are not.  Just some Iraqis who are defending their homeland, that’s all. But soner or later the Islamic world is going to say enough is enough, and then I don’t think you have any comprehension of the likely results.

So far this war against Islam, for it is nothing short of just that, is entirely one sided.  A few CIA controlled assets from the Muslim brotherhood and its baby, al-CIA-duh hack a few hads off and you think they are fighting.  HA

You are going to get such a surprise.  Especially when you actually do start to get attacks from Islamic Jihadists in the USA, something I suspect has never even been tried yet.  It will come sooner or later, you cannot keep being an evil bastard, forever without any consequences.

Posted by Rabbit on Jul 11, 2006 at 2:54 AM

Of course we know that bin Laden couldn’t possibly have had anything to do with 9/11, because the CIA produced fake video where he supposedly confessed shows him looking like someone else completely, writing with his right hand, which he never does, and wearing jewelry, which he also never does.

Posted by Natalie on Jul 11, 2006 at 3:03 AM

Natty….One problem with your theory is that you with all the genuflecting and worship of the Cheney regime ; neo-cons hawks seem to be forgetting all the evidence pointing too conservative lack of competence…9/11 commission reports…also the fact…and I’m no fan of Clinton…that the Clinton Adm. showed much more competency , in dealing with national security issues….Soo the assumption that this attack would have happened anyway is really an acquiescence to the fact or fate before it happened….base in incompetence…by being incompetent before the attack…Bush and pals made the attack inevitable…therefore the Clinton regime…would very possibly, have avoided the attack…......diplomacy…..competence…...much of this could be avoided…..all your gibber gabb is nothing but excuses after the fact…
Neo-cons win elections behind non-sense like this ” thinking backward “....using natural reactionary emotional reflexes…as action bases reflexes…..The Democrats lose because instead of rejecting this foolishness….they play along…...

Posted by Redhorse on Jul 11, 2006 at 3:10 AM

You know what I think when I see somebody geting their head cut off, by a dubiously convincing Muslim on a video, which invariably turns up just in time for Bush to gain a much needed boost in his woeful approval ratings?  I think, well that’s one person who was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

You the USA made Iraq into the wrong place, before it was just another averagely repressed ME country under another US installed dictator.  Seen one sen em all.  Now Iraq is the gateway to hell, and when you maniac leaders get up the nerev to have a crack at Iran, hell may be what the rest of the world will quickly become.

Don’t believe the rabbit, just go on supporting the biggest failure and most belligerant naked emperor of history, and allow him to drag the US into a war which will with 95% certainty becoemthe war to end all wars.

The sad thing is that before the Bushling started screeching about Terra, and before the sheple of the USA were herded into a sheep race which could only end in national suicide, the majority of the worlds people and virtually all the world’s countries semed content to live in peace and continue down the path of disarmament. 

I see that now India has gone and fired a new missile test.  Korea pulled their stunt the other day.  Neither act means anything except that they indicate what is happening, a new arms race.

for that, I could almost come to hate America. Ther just isn’t enough humanity in the Bushman junta to be the target of that much hatred, you lousy gutless cringing Americans who have allowed the most incompetant and stupid frat boy imaginable to become your leader.  A creature with the most ignominious past thinkable, and a complete liar, a man lacking in any human empathy, and a dildo who couldn’t even find Iraq on a map.  It is hard not to hate you all sometimes, which is why I can only imagine the hatred and loathing which must be felt by at least one billion people.  Thank God we are no much noticed by the world for our closeness to the USA.  If the day comes when we begin to suffer the same hatred, it will be earned, I am honest enough to know that since we started it, we cannot complain when others strike back.

That is what you are doing.  You hit someone,and you use them hitting you back to justify keeping hitting them. The reason you will lose this war, like you always do lose these wars is as clear as a bell.  Those you first atcked are not ever going to give up, they are fightingfor their country.  Sooner or later you have to go home, and that is the end of it.  The fighting will continue until you go home, the guy you hit is far to much like every other human to give up.  You actually expect an invaded and occupied country to suurender do you?  Well it would be the first in history. 
A bit like your expalnation for the demolition of the WTCs.  Never mind that it is theoretically impossible, never mind that it has never happened before, you are convinced it happened or will happen this time.

Sounds a lot like that definition for insanity to me. Why not just accept the likely and historically obvious outcome as being the most likely?  911 was just another in a long line of false flag atacks used by governments who need some means of winding their population up for some war, and the USA is going to bleed heavily and suffer defeat upon defeat while they continue to force themselves on a people who don’t want them there.  It just is they way things are.  If you start a war, best at least do it closer to home thus allowing an annexation of the country concerned.  That way has an ocassional success story.  Look at the southern states and Mexico.  But then isn’t that kind of geting out of hand again now?

We are supposed to learn as children not to take what doesn’t belong to us.  I guess you do it different in the USA.

Looks like the Bushling is looking for a way out.  Not likely, so long as he still thinks the USA will get any say in the conditions.

Posted by Rabbit on Jul 11, 2006 at 3:47 AM

There is another reason we don’t believe Bin Laden was involved in 911 and it is a much more significant one Natty. The fake videos proved nothing except that the US pulls such stunts, which we all knew actually.
No the reason sweet Natalie, is that the FBI admits it has to this day NO EVIDENCE of Bin Ladens involvment.  There is no admission from Bin Laden as we know, and there is no evidence of him.  Which does beg the question “what were people like Cheney and co doing claiming Bin Laden was the culprit within less than an hour.”  No smoking guns there eh?

No Natlie people like us are actually quite adept at separating logical conclusions from spurious claims.  To say the fake video proved anything woiuld be illogical.  In fact it cannot be directly proven that the tapes were fake at this point. Of course indirectly the details were all wrong as you partly listed, the style was all wrong and to short, and the duffer named all nineten names on the official hijacker list, the problem being that at least seven of them were not involved and yet lived.  A big boo boo there and the claim by some dunces at the time that this just meant they had use false names, does ring rather hilarious when you consider then that Bin Laden supposedly named the false names then in his tribute.

We are never short of laughs with you denialists.

Posted by Rabbit on Jul 11, 2006 at 3:56 AM

Lagomorph -

Scorpy why do you make this strawman?  Rabbit never said the Abrams was destroyed by an RPG, so why do you specifically act as if you achieve something by saying otherwise?

Regret to inform you that the bullshit report from the bullshit terrorist site is YOUR strawman, not mine.  I don’t post terrorist nonsense like that. 

So, when I point out that your report is factually implausible, you insist it is correct, the old ABC “fake but accurate” defense.  Unfortunately, nobody employs you so you can’t be fired like your fellow-traveler, Dan Rather.  Pity.

And why are you wasting so many jillion electrons rattling on about “illegal war”?  The UN approved Gulf I in 1991, the Armistice that resulted in the cease fire after Gulf I was valid up until 2003, Saddam repeatedly violated the Armistice, seventeen UNSC Resolutions were written between 1991 and 2002 trying to persuade Saddam to abide by his solemn agreements with the UN, the Coalition went into Iraq to uphold the Armistice and the UN’s repeated warnings to Saddam, and UNSC Resolution 1483 specifically authorizes Great Britain and the USA as “occupying powers” in Iraq. 

There are a long string of UN documents approving the original Gulf I war, the intermediate actions, and the situation now in Iraq.  There are no UN or other documents anywhere saying the war is illegal.  But I grant you that there are many deranged and semi-deranged leftists who waste lots of time and effort saying that the war was illegal.  Well, duh!  That is what leftists do.  What do you want me to do about it?

Lagomorph, its bad enough when you allow Rense and terrorist websites to blow smoke up your ass, but now you are blowing smoke up your own ass.  You are quite the contortionist, boy!

Posted by scorp on Jul 11, 2006 at 5:32 AM

Your last couple of lines of your post are trying however feebly to copy a particularly amusing one liner Rabbit once used to trounce you Scorpy, it is gratifying that you found it so uncomfortable that you feel a need to try and recycle it now against Rabbit.  But Rabbit is no contortionaist Scorpy, since he is able to post lots of sources from many and varied sites to support his arguments.  Unlike Scorpy who is convinced his word alone makes a fact out of anything.  Don’t go getting your foot within such close range of your mouth when dealing with the rabbit, you know how he enjoys serving it up to you with seasoning.

Besides which the image doesn’t work in this context Scorpson.  You see Rabbit is both practical and of a technical persuasion and what you describe is utterly foolish.  You must not assume that everybody does things like you Scorpy.  The rabbit if he had the same need to blow smoke up his bottom, as the Scorpy seems to enjoy, would simply employ a piece of tubing, thus alleviating any unnatural bending or contortions.  I’m sure that would work, perhaps next time you are amusing yourself in this way you could try it and let us know?  What size Tubing Scorpy?  I guess that depends on how big an Arsehole you are. In your case I’d guess no size is too big.

You are full of bull, Scorpy, the Resistance site doesn’t claim an RPG did it, and even if it it did, such minor details could be wrong, such minor details are often embellished or mixed up by reporters, even Iraqi ones.  Besides which the Abrams have not been perrforming up to scratch as I detailed above already and it seems a few have gone down to RPGs.  Like I said, RPGs with DU rounds can be fired by Iraqi’s as well as your brave troops

That’s a pretty weak argument to debunk it really.  Anyway the report also co-incides with other reports including the admission of the deaths of the servicemen, by the pentagon, it isn’t actually open to you to deny it.

The attack on Iraq is not a war, that is to give the whole thing a legitimacy it doesn’t earn.  The fact that it is illegal is also well established and by the way your supreme court ruling from the other day actually made this point by implication very clearly. 

It is not a waste of electrons pointing out the truth when denialists and cringing morons are spruiking their delusions and lies.

Already pointed out tha people who are resisting an invasion of their country cannot actually be defined as terrorists and you fake calling of the Iraqi resistance as terrorists only shows the poverty and delusion of your case.  Now if those Iraqis were attacking Americans in Amerfica maybe you’d have a point, but since it is Americans who are attacking Iraqis in Iraq, I guess that makes you the terrororists,

What Scorpy don’t you think that terrorists can have planes and missiles and flackjackets and uniforms?  That is known as state terrorism Scorpy.

The bullshit line recently being tried out by the neocon beats as they try to hold off the day of reckoning that somehow the first Guld War justifies the subsequent attack on Iraq, is dead in the water.

Daddy Bush didn’t go into Bahgdad in 1991, for the stated reason that the UN mandate didn’t actually authorise it.  It only gave them, the mandate to remove Iraqi troops from Kuwait.  How many times do you idiots think you can keep changing the justififcation for this cowardly and illegal attack?  Nobody believes anything you sau anymore, so you might as well just admit the truth.  You attacked Iraq for the OIL.  Halliburton and similar entities wanted to rape the US economy for hundreds of Billions of dollars as well, which is what they have been doing ever since.  No need to pretend you menat well, or that you thought you were doing trhe right thing.  We all know that is a lie and no amount of denial as your country slips into fascism and global pariah status will change that.

Oh and Scorpy despite a number of deliberate provocations by the USA, Saddam Hussein never did violate the Armistice that is a complete lie on your behalf.

Many people have made the case for the 2003 invasion being illegal, far better than I so I shall list a few of these.  Their arguments are factual and based on straightforward interpretaions of the laws which will have to be addressed one day.  It will of course take an ICC treatment of the issues to make it official.  But that day is sure to come.  The fact is the laws have been breached, significantly and that fcat cannot be hidden.  Any hope the Bushling had of doing so, ended wiuth the recent Supreme court ruliong which I still predict the Bushling will bypass.  But soosner opr later the piper will have to be paid.

World tribunal, informal.

This one is rather damning and reading it I’d say that not only Bush, but Blair and possibly Howard too have got problems.  ‘Preventive War’ and International Law After Iraq

The Kellogg-Briand Pact condemned recourse to war and renounced war as an instrument of national policy, and that the United Nations Charter, which was concluded “to save succeeding generations from the scourge of war, which twice in our lifetime has brought untold sorrow to mankind”, requires that all members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the purposes of the United Nations. The new Bush doctrine of ‘preventive war’ which was published in the National Security Strategy in September 2002 contemplates attacking a state in the absence of specific evidence of a pending attack. This doctrine marks a departure from the prohibition of the use of force under international law, starting from the Kellogg-Briand pact, the establishment of the Nuremberg Charter, the conclusion of the United Nations Charter and the establishment of the International Criminal Court, and marks a return to a readiness to use force in international relations.

Under Security Council resolution 1483 (2003), no protection is given to Member States or their officials from liability under the Geneva Conventions, Hague Regulations or other provisions of international or national law including the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court.

A good collection of information showing the state of lies.

US and the Just War theory.

The WTI put forth a powerful final declaration by the Jury which contains the following charges against the the governments of the UK and the US:

• Planning, preparing, and waging the supreme crime of a war of aggression in contravention of the UN Charter and the Nuremberg Principles.
• Targeting the civilian population of Iraq and civilian infrastructure
• Using disproportionate force and indiscriminate weapon systems
• Failing to safeguard the lives of civilians during military activities and during the occupation period thereafter
• Using deadly violence against peaceful protestors
• Imposing punishments without charge or trial, including collective punishment
• Subjecting Iraqi soldiers and civilians to torture and cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment
• Re-writing the laws of a country that has been illegally invaded and occupied
• Willfully devastating the environment
• Actively creating conditions under which the status of Iraqi women has seriously been degraded
• Failing to protect humanity’s rich archaeological and cultural heritage in Iraq
• Obstructing the right to information, including the censoring of Iraqi media
• Redefining torture in violation of international law, to allow use of torture and illegal detentions

“The Jury also established charges against the Security Council of United Nations for failing to stop war crimes and crimes against humanity among other failures, against the Governments of the Coalition of the Willing.” 

Look Scorpy no Rense.  No hands mum! 

The following is a copy of a complaint filed with the ICC.  From an Australian perspective, it still lays out the facts as they stand for all the coalition of the killing.

ICC complaint.

Posted by Rabbit on Jul 11, 2006 at 7:14 AM

What you need to get your head around my little American chickens is this.  All the many lawyers and world leaders and the millions of citizens of many countries who now are calling the USA a war criminal nation, a rogue and a threat to world peace, were not doing any such thing just a few years ago.  None of this was heard during the Balkans, or the Gulf War, although not everything was as it should be in those instances, the facts were grey enough to allow for the benefit of the doubt.  Not this time sunshine, the whole world is awake up to the lies and abuse this time, and just because the weak and mostly compliant UN and other governments have not yet said very much, it will not stop or slow down the eventual International Criminal Court trials.  These things take time, but the will to ensure justice is done is far too strong to allow it to fade away.

Eventually the USA will ovverreach so much that it will fall in a heap and then, expect the whole world will close in, and even m,any of those gutless bastards in European countries together with Asia the rest of the ME even, will close in like vultures.  You have no support these days except that which is bought or threatened.  How fast do you think that will dry up when you are on your knees?

I can tell you now, there will be no support.  The world, even those few countries which play along now, will be so quick to jump on that bandwagon to save their own consciences that you are going to be shocked and dismayed.  Bush will be indigted and so will many of the warmongering scumbags who hang off his adminstration like the parasites they are.

Posted by Rabbit on Jul 11, 2006 at 7:41 AM

Natalie,

$10,000 was my average (not a typo) for the 1990s.

This includes:
Hardware

Posted by whattheheck on Jul 11, 2006 at 8:26 AM